Ray Allen is the "clutchest" player of this generation.

[phoenix18]

^^^That is all.

Too many times, too many season, every stage.

[nbastatus]

:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

[RoseCity07]

It was a wide open 3 on horrible defensive team. I wonder how he shook the nerves off.

[Thechosen1]

no seriously now its official i just get amazed watching this dude

[Dizzle-2k7]

http://www.respectkobe.com/img/kobe-finger.jpg

[B-Diddy=2Easy]

Wide open, like he always is.

[magnax1]

Except Kobe and Duncan.

[phoenix18]

It was a wide open 3 on horrible defensive team. I wonder how he shook the nerves off.

Yeah, I wonder how Kobe did that against the Kings.:rolleyes:

[thwarriorojmayo]

am srry did kobe die before the 2000's

[phoenix18]

Except Kobe and Duncan.
:roll:

[bokes15]

Not at all.. But in terms of 3 point shooting I do call the guy the Reggie Miller of this generation.

[LAClipsFan33]

http://www.respectkobe.com/img/kobe-finger.jpg

http://www.everyjoe.com/expertfantasy/files/2008/06/ray-allen-finals-mvp_nc.jpg

Ray gave that guy nightmares for a whole offseason

:roll:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXxwFgpZfco

[Dizzle-2k7]

:roll:

Never seen Duncan in the playoffs?.. dude has had gamewinning blocks, steals, assists, hooks, jumpers, THREES

[Thechosen1]

am srry did kobe die before the 2000's

lol Kobe just gets remembered for all the ones he makes..but not the plethoras of misses he has? Like today perhaps...

[B-Diddy=2Easy]

As a Celtic, show me 2 clutch shots from Ray where he wasn't wide open.

[catch24]

Definitely one of the more unappreciated/underrated players in the clutch.

[phoenix18]

As a Celtic, show me 2 clutch shots from Ray where he wasn't wide open.
As a hater, show me 2 posts where you said something positive about ray.

[B-Diddy=2Easy]

As a hater, show me 2 posts where you said something positive about ray.

You can't, right?

[mlh1981]

Wide open, like he always is.

^^a legit poster's "comedic relief" account.

[LAClipsFan33]

As a Celtic, show me 2 clutch shots from Ray where he wasn't wide open.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x99mER-dzFw

[thwarriorojmayo]

ill say ray allen is the clutchest after kobe as a 2g but better than kobe
crack is wack

[Rafael Delaget]

As a Celtic, show me 2 clutch shots from Ray where he wasn't wide open.

You do realize getting open is a skill, right? Instead of bitching about Pierce not getting enough shots, why don't you tell his fat lazy ass to make a cut off the ball every once in a while. He could learn a thing or two from Allen's movement without the ball.

[phoenix18]

You can't, right?
Obviously you dont know anything about basketball. What Ray does is art. Its something that takes a lot of skill and intelligence. You have to have perfect footwork and fearlessness.

To answer your question, Watch Game 4 of the 2008 Finals and the first round series against Chicago.

[TruthKGRay3412]

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/520/rayallenan1.jpg

[B-Diddy=2Easy]

^^a legit poster's "comedic relief" account.

But you can't name one time where he wasn't wide open on one of his infamous clutch shots, can you?

[MMM]

Yes Ray is one of the clutches guys of his era along with the Kobe, Melo, Nash, Wade, Dirk etc. If i need a clutch 3 there isn't a player I'd take over Ray.

[mlh1981]

But you can't name one time where he wasn't wide open on one of his infamous clutch shots, can you?

Who cares, you won the ****ing game.

and if he was blanketed by a defender, and made the shot, you would call it lucky.

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

tAKING it my wizards +12 hit:party:

[B-Diddy=2Easy]

**** the game. You guys sit here and celebrate scrubs hitting wide opens shots? Really?

[pete's montreux]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QE4lfPm3L3s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9JTGAsk0IY

I can think of at least 5 others.

[ProfessorMurder]

But you can't name one time where he wasn't wide open on one of his infamous clutch shots, can you?

When he drained a 3 in Joakim Noah's face in round 1 last year. You're just flat out retarded.

[phoenix18]

When he drained a 3 in Joakim Noah's face in round 1 last year. You're just flat out retarded.

I told him to watch the series again because I saw some shots in there that were crazy.

[TimeConfidence]

**** the game. You guys sit here and celebrate scrubs hitting wide opens shots? Really?
Show me a game where Pierce didn't suck on defense.

[LAClipsFan33]

I told him to watch the series again because I saw some shots in there that were crazy.

He had 3 or 4 in that series alone

[jaydacris]

ray allen only ever gets wide open shots when paul pierce is on the court, because teams always have to quintuple team pierce

not to mention, pierce usually spends extra time with ray allen after and beforce practise, giving him tips and pointers on how to shoot better

fools are tripping, if y'all can't see that

[TruthKGRay3412]

**** the game. You guys sit here and celebrate scrubs hitting wide opens shots? Really?

bahahah..Suicide watch..in 3..2..1

http://mikecane.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/cho-gun-to-head.jpg

[phoenix18]

Show me a game where Pierce didn't suck on defense.
:roll: :roll:

Pierce was so lazy tonight.

[B-Diddy=2Easy]

When he drained a 3 in Joakim Noah's face in round 1 last year. You're just flat out retarded.

He was wide open there, moron. Noah ran at him late. Try again.

[magnax1]

:roll:
Always seemed clutch to me. Has hit multiple huge shots for the spurs, always comes up with big plays on defense. If I remember right, he was 1 assist from a quad double in the finals one year.

[TruthKGRay3412]

When he drained a 3 in Joakim Noah's face in round 1 last year. You're just flat out retarded.

http://thegaber.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/ray-allen-joakim-noah-game-2.jpg

[pete's montreux]

You know Spud wasn't going to watch whatever evidence we offered. We've been baited.

[Tito Beasley]

http://www.respectkobe.com/img/kobe-finger.jpg


Lebron has made more game winners on less attempts this year.


"Kobe is the best closer" is just a bone people try to throw Kobe these days since they won't be taken seriously if they call him the best player.

[phoenix18]

He was wide open there, moron. Noah ran at him late. Try again.
http://thegaber.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/ray-allen-joakim-noah-game-2.jpg

REALLY????

[hateraid]

It's a little misleading. I'd say the clutchest 3-pt shooter of this generation. He's more in the class of Big Shot Rob, Miller, and possibly Bird.

[chazzy]

**** the game. You guys sit here and celebrate scrubs hitting wide opens shots? Really?

http://i47.tinypic.com/ajqxcn.jpg

[west]

**** the game. You guys sit here and celebrate scrubs hitting wide opens shots? Really?
http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff322/yinwest/Youmad.gif

[pete's montreux]

I also remember the sideline three that was called a two in Noah's face. Not sure what game it was, though. Noah was all up in his grill, had to throw up a rainbow and it was all-net baby!

[hipballinjigga]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x99mER-dzFw


I would say that was 8 clutch shots as a Celtic. Hand in the face each time. I declare the person who questioned this defeated.

[TruthKGRay3412]

http://i41.tinypic.com/13z0kgj.jpg

[TruthKGRay3412]

http://i27.tinypic.com/2n19izl.jpg

AIR JESUS!

[B-Diddy=2Easy]

ray allen only ever gets wide open shots when paul pierce is on the court, because teams always have to quintuple team pierce

not to mention, pierce usually spends extra time with ray allen after and beforce practise, giving him tips and pointers on how to shoot better

fools are tripping, if y'all can't see that

Thank you! Ray only gets wide open because Pierce and KG draw double teams. Teams don't gameplan on Ray Allen. They don't go in the huddle late in the game and say "hey, we have to stop Ray Allen". I'd like to see Ray Allen hit those clutch shots tonight without Pp and KG on the floor.

[hipballinjigga]

http://i47.tinypic.com/ajqxcn.jpg


...OT but this image is AWESOME. Thank you.

[phoenix18]

I also remember the sideline three that was called a two in Noah's face. Not sure what game it was, though. Noah was all up in his grill, had to throw up a rainbow and it was all-net baby!
Noah got so demoralized by Ray in that series.

[LAClipsFan33]

I would say that was 8 clutch shots as a Celtic. Hand in the face each time. I declare the person who questioned this defeated.

True story.

[TruthKGRay3412]

Where was Pierce in that Chicago series? oh ya

http://i44.tinypic.com/a9sm52.jpg

Pierce needs to get his head outta his ass and start taking 17-18 FGA..he is scared to be the go to guy these days.

[chazzy]

You think he's open because his man is double teaming Pierce? Wow. He moves off ball and runs his man through screens, one of the best in the game at off ball movement

[jazz873]

But you can't name one time where he wasn't wide open on one of his infamous clutch shots, can you?
Did you not watch the video somebody posted earlier?

[LAClipsFan33]

And for the record for this generation...

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/multimedia/photo_gallery/0806/nba.best.playoff.jump.shots/images/4.horry.jpg >

http://s.bebo.com/app-image/7924735847/5411656627/PROFILE/i.quizzaz.com/img/q/u/08/05/05/kobe7_400_070323.jpg

Give me Horry or Ray taking the last shot over Kobe and his FGP of 30%

Horry made his big shots in the playoffs

[B-Diddy=2Easy]

Where was Pierce in that Chicago series? oh ya

http://i44.tinypic.com/a9sm52.jpg

Pierce needs to get his head outta his ass and start taking 17-18 FGA..he is scared to be the go to guy these days.

He wass being double teamed everytime he touched the ball. Tru story.

Ray was being guarded by Ben Gordan. Pierce was being guarded by two Chicago players almost evrytime he touched th ball.

Where was Ray Allen n the Magic series?

[Nets fan 93]

As a Celtic, show me 2 clutch shots from Ray where he wasn't wide open.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jqv_BiNuqk0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x99mER-dzFw basically every shot
in the second video check out 1:28

[phoenix18]

[QUOTE=robertshaw_1]ray allen.....

287

[ProfessorMurder]

Warning: A scientific study has given us a window into spudgay's mind.

What really happened:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q225/kennerguy66/ray-allen-joakim-noah-game-2.jpg


What spudgay's Pierce addled mind believes:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q225/kennerguy66/ray-allen-joakim.jpg

[nbastatus]

Warning: A scientific study has given us a window into spudgay's mind.

What really happened:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q225/kennerguy66/ray-allen-joakim-noah-game-2.jpg


What spudgay's Pierce addled mind believes:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q225/kennerguy66/ray-allen-joakim.jpg
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[pete's montreux]

:oldlol:

[LAClipsFan33]

Warning: A scientific study has given us a window into spudgay's mind.

What really happened:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q225/kennerguy66/ray-allen-joakim-noah-game-2.jpg


What spudgay's Pierce addled mind believes:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q225/kennerguy66/ray-allen-joakim.jpg

Haha where's the rep system when you need it ?

:oldlol:

:applause:

[phoenix18]

:oldlol: Prof ending it right there.

[B-Diddy=2Easy]

Why are you fools acting like he pulled that off a 1-on-1? Did he or did he not come off a screen?

Show me one Ray Allen cltuch shot where he didn't come off a screen and/or wasn't wide open(as a Celtic). You can't.

[phoenix18]

Why are you fools acting like he pulled that off a 1-on-1? Did he or did he not come off a screen?

Show me one Ray Allen cltuch shot where he didn't come off a screen and/or wasn't wide open(as a Celtic). You can't.
:wtf:
Kobe and Vujab*tch in the Finals.

Do you watch C's games?

[west]

Why are you fools acting like he pulled that off a 1-on-1? Did he or did he not come off a screen?

Show me one Ray Allen cltuch shot where he didn't come off a screen and/or wasn't wide open(as a Celtic). You can't.
The shot he hit right in Noah's face in game 6.

[TimeConfidence]

Why are you fools acting like he pulled that off a 1-on-1? Did he or did he not come off a screen?

Show me one Ray Allen cltuch shot where he didn't come off a screen and/or wasn't wide open(as a Celtic). You can't.
So at first it was Ray can't hit contest shots, Ray can't hit contest shots as a Sonic or a Buck, and now it's Ray can't hit shots that aren't off of screens as a Celtic. :oldlol:

[Bcogswell]

So at first it was Ray can't hit contest shots, Ray can't hit contest shots as a Sonic or a Buck, and now it's Ray can't hit shots that aren't off of screens as a Celtic. :oldlol:

You can tell hes running out of options to try and prove his point lol.

Ray Allen is a very clutch player, the way he comes off screens and gets just enough room for the shot is beautiful.

[west]

@ 4:10.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gigjm4C2s5Y&feature=related

[Killbot]

I also remember the sideline three that was called a two in Noah's face. Not sure what game it was, though. Noah was all up in his grill, had to throw up a rainbow and it was all-net baby!

Chicago Bulls vs. Boston Celtics Game 6

["Jesus"]

**** the game. You guys sit here and celebrate scrubs hitting wide opens shots? Really?

:no:




:pimp: @ Ray Allen tonight.

[Kblaze8855]

Ignoring for a moment the inarguable fact that hes made several big shots not at all open(including the biggest shot of the 08 finals)....

How have we reached the point where people complain about a player who manages to get off good shots in the clutch time after time? I bet a coach would laugh his ass off at the idiocy of finding it unimpressive to get yourself open from 3 in the clutch when the other team just spent a timeout discussing exactly how to stop you from doing that.

If just anyone could do it a lot more of them would.

[phoenix18]

Spudgay just killed himself.

Ray Allen's 3 was the moment of the night.

[chitownsfinest]

Ignoring for a moment the inarguable fact that hes made several big shots not at all open(including the biggest shot of the 08 finals)....

How have we reached the point where people complain about a player who manages to get off good shots in the clutch time after time? I bet a coach would laugh his ass off at the idiocy of finding it unimpressive to get yourself open from 3 in the clutch when the other team just spent a timeout discussing exactly how to stop you from doing that.

If just anyone could do it a lot more of them would.
The art of off ball movement is not respected anymore.

[Killbot]

Warning: A scientific study has given us a window into spudgay's mind.

What really happened:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q225/kennerguy66/ray-allen-joakim-noah-game-2.jpg


What spudgay's Pierce addled mind believes:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q225/kennerguy66/ray-allen-joakim.jpg

Spudjjay just got beaten down. :roll: :roll:

[west]

The art of off ball movement is not respected anymore.
It's a lost art......Ray is still the best in the league.

He is the most clutch free throw shooter too IMO. Dude is money in the clutch.

[scott0326]

Definitely one of the more unappreciated/underrated players in the clutch.
Maybe on this site but not anywhere else. Every time you hear a telecast of the Celtics they wont shut up the whole time about how amazingly clutch he is.

[B-Diddy=2Easy]

Ignoring for a moment the inarguable fact that hes made several big shots not at all open(including the biggest shot of the 08 finals)....

How have we reached the point where people complain about a player who manages to get off good shots in the clutch time after time? I bet a coach would laugh his ass off at the idiocy of finding it unimpressive to get yourself open from 3 in the clutch when the other team just spent a timeout discussing exactly how to stop you from doing that.

If just anyone could do it a lot more of them would.

These coaches don't gameplan around Ray Allen.

[Killbot]

These coaches don't gameplan around Ray Allen.

And what evidence do you have to prove your claim?

[phoenix18]

These coaches don't gameplan around Ray Allen.
:roll:

The C's use him as a decoy because other teams gameplan for him. Log off and pull the trigger already.

[TimeConfidence]

These coaches don't gameplan around Ray Allen.
Yep, they game plan Rondo first and then Allen. No room for your bud Pierce.

[Kblaze8855]

These coaches don't gameplan around Ray Allen.

You think you get a job as an NBA coach when you know the other team needs a 3 or can take the 3 to win...and you dont talk about Ray Allen?

There isnt even a ball boy who doesnt know to look for Ray Allen when the Celtics need a big shot....

[coin24]

I cant believe people on here were saying trade ray ray before the deadline.. idiots:banghead:
If those people would watch a few games they would realise the celts would suck without him. Apart from Rondo the rest of the team is garbage.
KG looks embarassingly slow, got blocked pretty hard :no:

[Doko]

[QUOTE=robertshaw_1]ray allen.....

287

[SAKOTXA]

Lebron has made more game winners on less attempts this year.


"Kobe is the best closer" is just a bone people try to throw Kobe these days since they won't be taken seriously if they call him the best player.

Lol are you ****ing kidding me?

[PowerGlove]

Are people seriously trying to say Fisher is more clutch? Come on.

[Mr Clutch Melo]

Only stupid Laker homers:facepalm

[iDunk]

Kobe or Vince Carter.

Carter has had at least 15 game winners this decade.

[creepingdeath]

Vinsanity? Are you kidding? Anyway, the Dirkster said it himself: "Best shooter in the league by far, PERIOD". Ray has proven his clutchness over and over again...

[Harison]

Warning: A scientific study has given us a window into spudgay's mind.

What really happened:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q225/kennerguy66/ray-allen-joakim-noah-game-2.jpg


What spudgay's Pierce addled mind believes:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q225/kennerguy66/ray-allen-joakim.jpg
:roll: :applause:

[Harison]

I bet a coach would laugh his ass off at the idiocy of finding it unimpressive to get yourself open from 3 in the clutch when the other team just spent a timeout discussing exactly how to stop you from doing that.

Exactly, its actually hard to get yourself open in the clutch when everybody and their mothers knows you'll be taking the shot. Only few players mastered this art, like Jordan, Bird, Reggie and now Ray. Others... not so much. Kobe is absolutely terrific player, but he doesnt know how to do it, nor Lebron, or Wade.

Other thread is about Fisher in the clutch, but he is usually only open because he is n'th option and players leave him open and focus on Kobe instead, same applies to Horry. As soon as they would become first option in the clutch, they hardly could do anything, except only heavily contested rainbow shot and pray it goes in. To be fair, they hit few of those too, but if they would be defended everytime, FG% would be lower than Kobe's. Thats why clutch stars are on their own level, while Fisher with Horry a step bellow.

[Christofire]

Clutch Baby!!

[PowerGlove]

More evidence:bowdown:

[pete's montreux]

record for fastest bump for an eat crow thread in ish history? :oldlol:

[FKAri]

No. He's not.

Clutch means to play better in high pressure moments. If he's a 40% shot maker normally and still 40% in high pressure moments; that's not clutch.

Like someone mentioned earlier, VC would be a good candidate. Even if it's cuz he isn't trying the rest of the game :lol (not srs).....(semi srs)

[iDunk]

Not really, he's just a really good shooter.

[whoartthou]

kobe should take notes from jesus.

[pauk]

For The Last Time.... There Is No Such Thing As "clutchest"....... You Are Either A Great Shooter Or Average Shooter Or Not......... there is no such thing as shooting 100% all of the sudden just because its clutch time ffs............ u can also be "CLUTCH" in various ways except from putting the ball in the hole urself........ i made a thread about this a while ago....

dont trust to much in NBA 2K11 for PS3/XBOX

[DMAVS41]

Give me Dirk.

Ray has been amazing though.

Definitely not Kobe.

[Colby Brian]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_TU_2iVmNuyM/Sxr9OjoRFnI/AAAAAAAABl0/U04DB06R8nU/s400/50897820.jpg

http://www.eatsleepwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/kobe-bryant-the-kloser-600x341.png

[whoartthou]

Give me Dirk.

Ray has been amazing though.

Definitely not Kobe.

Dirk>>>ray>>> kobe in the clutch

[CelticBaller]

Where spudgay at?:lol

[Colby Brian]

Dirk>>>ray>>> kobe in the clutch

lol gms and experts say otherwise

kobe the "black mamba"

[DMAVS41]

lol gms and experts say otherwise

kobe the "black mamba"

same gm's and experts voted billups 2nd. LOL

Kobe has been very good, but he misses too many shots and forces too many shots late. Today's game is a good example. People just tend to ignore them in favor of his good ones.

[miller-time]

considering a lot of kobes clutch shots are against teams that shouldn't require clutch shots to beat them, does he really count?

[whoartthou]

same gm's and experts voted billups 2nd. LOL

Kobe has been very good, but he misses too many shots and forces too many shots late. Today's game is a good example. People just tend to ignore them in favor of his good ones.

kobe was bricking in the clutch. Too bad his teammates could not bail his ass out

[Sampsonsimpson]

Lol at all the people hatin on him for bein wide open. As if because he didnt try to play hero and jack up a contested 3 somehow makes him not clutch. He got a good look and still had all the pressure of missing a wide open three to win the game and he drilled it. I dont see whats wrong with that

:confusedshrug:

[Rekindled]

even my grandma can make that shot if my Powerforward can just hip check the defender out.

[Colby Brian]

same gm's and experts voted billups 2nd. LOL

Kobe has been very good, but he misses too many shots and forces too many shots late. Today's game is a good example. People just tend to ignore them in favor of his good ones.

lol ask any gm or player, 90% will say kobe

U MAD?

[Rysio]

kobe says hi

[whoartthou]

kobe says hi
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[24r2]

same gm's and experts voted billups 2nd. LOL

Kobe has been very good, but he misses too many shots and forces too many shots late. Today's game is a good example. People just tend to ignore them in favor of his good ones.

gms > YOU

[DMAVS41]

lol ask any gm or player, 90% will say kobe

U MAD?

mad? not at all. kobe is super clutch and has been one of the best clutch players of this era. he's also a great big shot maker.

I just would rather have dirk or ray or melo shooting in those situations.

not mad at all. either way, its not clear cut. and kobe is certainly not clearly the best.

can we actually have a conversation for a change?

[LA_Showtime]

This is the dumbest thread ever. While Ray has his moments, he's always got a tendency to COMPLETELY DISAPPEAR in big games. I know people are gonna be stupid and just bring up Kobe's flaws, but Ray's game 7 puts him down a few notches in my book.

[LA_Showtime]

mad? not at all. kobe is super clutch and has been one of the best clutch players of this era. he's also a great big shot maker.

I just would rather have dirk or ray or melo shooting in those situations.

not mad at all. either way, its not clear cut. and kobe is certainly not clearly the best.

can we actually have a conversation for a change?

Ray... really? See above post. The dude has a tendency to completely disappear.

[Kevin_Garnett_5]

This is the dumbest thread ever. While Ray has his moments, he's always got a tendency to COMPLETELY DISAPPEAR in big games. I know people are gonna be stupid and just bring up Kobe's flaws, but Ray's game 7 puts him down a few notches in my book.You mean where he played amazing defense on Kobe?

[Colby Brian]

mad? not at all. kobe is super clutch and has been one of the best clutch players of this era. he's also a great big shot maker.

I just would rather have dirk or ray or melo shooting in those situations.

not mad at all. either way, its not clear cut. and kobe is certainly not clearly the best.

can we actually have a conversation for a change?

yeah sure,
basically every expert and gm, and analysts say kobes the best clutch player

/thread

[DMAVS41]

This is the dumbest thread ever. While Ray has his moments, he's always got a tendency to COMPLETELY DISAPPEAR in big games. I know people are gonna be stupid and just bring up Kobe's flaws, but Ray's game 7 puts him down a few notches in my book.

for sure. i took the OP was talking about game winners. not overall clutch play.

ray doesn't have any argument over guys like dirk and kobe and lebron in overall clutch play.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

This is the dumbest thread ever. While Ray has his moments, he's always got a tendency to COMPLETELY DISAPPEAR in big games. I know people are gonna be stupid and just bring up Kobe's flaws, but Ray's game 7 puts him down a few notches in my book.

If you're going to bring up game 7 you're just asking for it.

Game 3, fair enough...

[Sharmer]

Steve Kerr says for the millionth:roll: time ray allen makes a clutch shot- enough said !

[DMAVS41]

yeah sure,
basically every expert and gm, and analysts say kobes the best clutch player

/thread

how could you ever say you'd rather have kobe taking a game winner over carmelo knowing the data?

are you serious?

they also voted billups 2nd. would you rather have billups shoot than dirk/ray/melo?

fyi...billups is 3-27 on his last 30 game winning shots over the last 5 years.

[Duranthebest]

This is the dumbest thread ever. While Ray has his moments, he's always got a tendency to COMPLETELY DISAPPEAR in big games. I know people are gonna be stupid and just bring up Kobe's flaws, but Ray's game 7 puts him down a few notches in my book.

100% agree.

People have short memory spans. The clutchest player ever going 0-13 in the finals?:oldlol:

[PowerGlove]

Ray... really? See above post. The dude has a tendency to completely disappear.

LOL, Game 7 was bad. FOR EVERYONE.

Doesnt erase the way he did the Lakers the first time around or the first two or three games in that series as well.

[nbastatus]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_e6PA7EBbqTA/THRZoF-35DI/AAAAAAAAArM/_5yIuufodQI/s400/record-breaking-ray-allen-makes-nba-finals-a-series-thumb-400xauto-10059.jpg
Ray Allen :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[LA_Showtime]

If you're going to bring up game 7 you're just asking for it.

Game 3, fair enough...

In fairness, I said game 7 hurt Kobe's legacy too (in another thread). It would've been worse had the Lakers lost, as he was the main reason they played so poorly in the first half.

But this thread's about Ray. He's gotta be one of the most on and off clutch players of all-time.

[Colby Brian]

how could you ever say you'd rather have kobe taking a game winner over carmelo knowing the data?

are you serious?

i would take kobe over melo all day
lol data

[LA_Showtime]

LOL, Game 7 was bad. FOR EVERYONE.

Doesnt erase the way he did the Lakers the first time around or the first two or three games in that series as well.

It's one ****ing game. I was basing my opinion off multiple performances.

[Sharmer]

LOL, Game 7 was bad. FOR EVERYONE.

Doesnt erase the way he did the Lakers the first time around or the first two or three games in that series as well.


remember the 55 points against the bulls in 09 playoff against the bulls , and that clutch 3 pointer fading away at the base over the 7 foot Noah

[DMAVS41]

i would take kobe over melo all day

and you would lose. melo shoots damn near 20% higher than kobe on game winners.

stats? what? its just counting makes and misses. you don't want the player that makes more game winners? wow.

[LA_Showtime]

You mean where he played amazing defense on Kobe?

Is trolling fun?

[PowerGlove]

It's one ****ing game. I was basing my opinion off multiple performances.

You just said game 7 took him down a couple notches for you...:confusedshrug:

[Duranthebest]

LOL, Game 7 was bad.

Doesnt erase the way he did the Lakers the first time around or the first two or three games in that series as well.

All he did was hit open shots in the first series, especially in game 6. Game was already over, but Rondo and Allen kept running the sam player over and over.

Last year, Ray had one good game in the Finals. He shot less than 40% from the field, maybe less than 30%.

[Colby Brian]

and you would lose. melo shoots damn near 20% higher than kobe on game winners.

cause hes only token like what 30 attempts, kobe has token way may
and what about the playoffs?

[Colby Brian]

remember the 55 points against the bulls in 09 playoff against the bulls , and that clutch 3 pointer fading away at the base over the 7 foot Noah

55? really?

[BlackWhiteGreen]

In fairness, I said game 7 hurt Kobe's legacy too (in another thread). It would've been worse had the Lakers lost, as he was the main reason they played so poorly in the first half.

But this thread's about Ray. He's gotta be one of the most on and off clutch players of all-time.

Yeah, was just pointing out game 3 would be a better indicator of Ray's hot and cold streaks.

[Colby Brian]

and by the way dirk is hella clutch too, the game yesterday he took over, but all those playoff series kinda ruin it for him

[DMAVS41]

cause hes only token like what 30 attempts, kobe has token way may

Kobe has like 40 makes for his career on 33% shooting. kobe shoots 6-22 in the playoffs. 27%.....ouch.

Melo has like 26 makes for his career on 50% shooting.

LOL.....Melo is on pace to make more than Kobe for his career by a wide margin actually.

LOL at trying to give Kobe credit for jacking up shots in these situations more than any other player.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

55? really?

51, to be fair, iirc

[Duranthebest]

In fairness, I said game 7 hurt Kobe's legacy too (in another thread). It would've been worse had the Lakers lost, as he was the main reason they played so poorly in the first half.

But this thread's about Ray. He's gotta be one of the most on and off clutch players of all-time.

Since joining the Celtics in 08 and ultimately having an easier role on the team, Ray Allen has shot less than 30% in 4 of the Celtics 10 playoffs series. In 08 against the Hawks, 08 against the Cavs, 09 against the Magic and in 2010 against the Lakers.

[PowerGlove]

Since joining the Celtics in 08 and ultimately having an easier role on the team, Ray Allen has shot less than 30% in 4 of the Celtics 10 playoffs series. )* against the Hawks, 08 against the Cavs, 09 against the Magic and in 2010 against the Lakers.

The Cavs game planned for him specifically, and he had to guard Kobe and Joe Johnson, and he was too tired of carrying pierce in 09 after the bulls series.:lol

[Mach_3]

Yeah, was just pointing out game 3 would be a better indicator of Ray's hot and cold streaks.

Ray allen injured his thigh (or calf, it was one of those two) in that game 3. It's not an excuse for him to go 0-13 but leg injuries do f*ck with your form

[Colby Brian]

51, to be fair, iirc

oh damn how many OTs?

[Duranthebest]

The Cavs game planned for him specifically, and he had to guard Kobe and Joe Johnson, and he was too tired of carrying pierce in 09 after the bulls series.:lol

Na. He just plays better when he facing a weak defender or when the defense just totally disregards him like Dwayne Wade usually does.

[Colby Brian]

Kobe has like 40 makes for his career on 33% shooting. kobe shoots 6-22 in the playoffs. 27%.....ouch.

Melo has like 26 makes for his career on 50% shooting.

LOL.....Melo is on pace to make more than Kobe for his career by a wide margin actually.

LOL at trying to give Kobe credit for jacking up shots in these situations more than any other player.

kobe has the most game winners in nba history
and i beleive melo has 1 playoff game winner

[Christofire]

lol Kobe just gets remembered for all the ones he makes..but not the plethoras of misses he has? Like today perhaps...
noone remembers jrodans misses either

[Colby Brian]

noone remembers jrodans misses either

:applause:

[PowerGlove]

Na. He just plays better when he facing a weak defender or when the defense just totally disregards him like Dwayne Wade usually does.
Pierce was heavy-Ray Allen

[DMAVS41]

kobe has the most game winners in nba history
and i beleive melo has 1 playoff game winner

do you know what the world "volume" means?

[Colby Brian]

do you know what the world "volume" means?

do you know what clutch means

[asdf1990]

do you know what clutch means

how many makes/attempts does kobe have?

[DMAVS41]

do you know what clutch means

what?

you and i are discussing who the best big shot makers are for game winners.

Kobe isn't one of top guys. dirk and melo are better. all the evidence proves this.

all you have is a gm survey that also voted billups 2nd best. billups is the worst game winning shot maker over the last 5 years in the entire league.

sorry. that survey means absolutely nothing given what we know.

[DMAVS41]

how many makes/attempts does kobe have?

kobe is around 40 of 125 for his career. 6-22 in the playoffs.

[asdf1990]

kobe is around 40 of 125 for his career. 6-22 in the playoffs.

where can i get the list just curious as to how many attempts all the other wings have.

[DMAVS41]

where can i get the list just curious as to how many attempts all the other wings have.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

its not updated. but was accurate through january 28th of this year. since then both dirk/kobe/melo have made a few game winners. melo has made a lot.

[Colby Brian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxLZGjSUbSw

this is just a couple years

[DMAVS41]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxLZGjSUbSw

this is just a couple years

what is this supposed to prove?

we all have seen kobe make a ton of clutch plays and shots.

we were specifically talking about game winning shots.

in overall clutch play, i'd take kobe over both melo and ray allen. not on game winners though.

the only guys that i would take over kobe in crunch time are dirk and lebron.

[Colby Brian]

what is this supposed to prove?

we all have seen kobe make a ton of clutch plays and shots.

we were specifically talking about game winning shots.

in overall clutch play, i'd take kobe over both melo and ray allen. not on game winners though.

the only guys that i would take over kobe in crunch time are dirk and lebron.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Colby Brian]

hey dmavs41 how many times has kobe owned dallas?

[DMAVS41]

hey dmavs41 how many times has kobe owned dallas?

a ton. your point?

[Colby Brian]

kobe owning dallas:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cyb1MNb2GrQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=313s
he outscored your team in 3 quarters by himself http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJNoFs3G91A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bv7aJ5LDvkc&feature=player_detailpage#t=134s
http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/01/14/us-nba-mavericks-idUSTRE60D0HG20100114

[DMAVS41]

kobe owning dallas:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cyb1MNb2GrQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=313s
he outscored your team in 3 quarters by himself http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJNoFs3G91A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bv7aJ5LDvkc&feature=player_detailpage#t=134s
http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/01/14/us-nba-mavericks-idUSTRE60D0HG20100114

what does this have to do with game winning shots?

done with you mate. thought we could have a conversation.

i hope you realize that saying Kobe is a better game winning shot maker than Melo is like saying Kobe is a better free throw shooter than Dirk.

Good effort though.

[Colby Brian]

what does this have to do with game winning shots?

done with you mate. thought we could have a conversation.

i hope you realize that saying Kobe is a better game winning shot maker than Melo is like saying Kobe is a better free throw shooter than Dirk.

Good effort though.

since you love stats http://www.82games.com/1011/CSORT11.HTM

[whoartthou]

I repeat, give ray allen shaq and the lakers squad in his prime, he wins chips

[Rysio]

I repeat, give ray allen shaq and the lakers squad in his prime, he wins chips
this is a fact

[Colby Brian]

I repeat, give ray allen shaq and the lakers squad in his prime, he wins chips

:lol :rolleyes:

kobe in playoffs
01- 29.4/ 7.3/ 6.1
02- 26.6/ 5.8/ 4.6

[DMAVS41]

since you love stats http://www.82games.com/1011/CSORT11.HTM

that is overall clutch play. not game winners.

even still, Dirk shoots 6% better than Kobe and is +25 in plus/minus over Kobe. Dallas also had a better record in close games this year.

LOL at just looking at ppg. So typical.

[Colby Brian]

that is overall clutch play. not game winners.

even still, Dirk shoots 6% better than Kobe and is +25 in plus/minus over Kobe. Dallas also had a better record in close games this year.

LOL at just looking at ppg. So typical.

kobe is known as the best closer in the game, if you watch games you here that all the time

[DMAVS41]

kobe is known as the best closer in the game, if you watch games you here that all the time

what kind of response is this? you posted the stats. they favor dirk. now you run and hide behind media speak and perceptions?

LOL

[Colby Brian]

what kind of response is this? you posted the stats. they favor dirk. now you run and hide behind media speak and perceptions?

LOL

the stats dont favor dirk, kobe was number 1, dirk not top 3
plus kobe has most game winner of all time
kobe wins

[DMAVS41]

the stats dont favor dirk, kobe was number 1, dirk not top 3
plus kobe has most game winner of all time
kobe wins

dude. the list is sorted by ppg. kobe is scoring 8 more points per 48 minutes of crunch time. Kobe is taking 15 more shots than Dirk to score 8 more points.

Do you not understand how awful that is?

[Colby Brian]

dude. the list is sorted by ppg. kobe is scoring 8 more points per 48 minutes of crunch time. Kobe is taking 15 more shots than Dirk to score 8 more points.

Do you not understand how awful that is?

its about winning brah

[DMAVS41]

its about winning brah

The Mavs have won more close games this year. The Mavs had a better record with Dirk in the lineup than the Lakers with Kobe in the lineup.

You posted this years stats.

LOL....

[Hittin_Shots]

its about winning brah

Why are Kobe fans wrong so often? Winning doesnt mean shooting more and missing more, efficiency beats total in the long run.... Because other ppl in better positions could have scored and most likely did score more than 8 points off those 15 possessions....

It's about winning....

[24r2]

I repeat, give ray allen shaq and the lakers squad in his prime, he wins chips

lol keep being delusional brah

[DMAVS41]

Why are Kobe fans wrong so often? Winning doesnt mean shooting more and missing more, efficiency beats total in the long run.... Because other ppl in better positions could have scored and most likely did score more than 8 points off those 15 possessions....

It's about winning....

Its funny how they want to talk about winning, but now when you bring up the Lakers record in close games the last 6 years.

They can't stay consistent. A debate about clutch play becomes about titles. Its the same thing every single time.

[EricForman]

He was wide open there, moron. Noah ran at him late. Try again.


you're a clown if you're trying to imply that wasn't a hard shot. please stop.

[redsoxballer]

Ray Ray is clutch as hell. Its crazy he has 2 more 50 point playoff games than Kome. Ray plays within the team's offense, Kome chucks to try and score 100 everygame but always fails

[Colby Brian]

Ray Ray is clutch as hell. Its crazy he has 2 more 50 point playoff games than Kome. Ray plays within the team's offense, Kome chucks to try and score 100 everygame but always fails

kobe and ray both have 1 50+ playoff games
and by the way ray was 0-13 in game 3 last year...0 for ****in 13
U still mad about game 7 brah?

[coin24]

Wow so much hate in this thread:facepalm

I cant stand the efficiency and meaningless % arguments.. So what if kobe chucks, hes not afraid to throw them up when it matters unlike the serial choke artist lebron:lol

RayRay is clutch as fu*k, so is Pierce(cant stand him but props), Melo, Manu,etc etc

Dirk? Regular season hero, in the big games he goes missing. I know this is where everyone will bring up kobes game 7 BS but hey, pretty sure 2 time defending champs is better than Dirks 0 and the Mavs choking every year...

[DMAVS41]

Wow so much hate in this thread:facepalm

I cant stand the efficiency and meaningless % arguments.. So what if kobe chucks, hes not afraid to throw them up when it matters unlike the serial choke artist lebron:lol

RayRay is clutch as fu*k, so is Pierce(cant stand him but props), Melo, Manu,etc etc

Dirk? Regular season hero, in the big games he goes missing. I know this is where everyone will bring up kobes game 7 BS but hey, pretty sure 2 time defending champs is better than Dirks 0 and the Mavs choking every year...

This is completely BS. Nothing more to say.

Dirk is the best elimination game player of this era and one of the best ever. Dirk averages 28 and 12 on 49% shooting in elimination games. He has 13 30 point games. Only Wilt has more all time.

Dirk has never lost a deciding game. He's 5-0. 4-0 in game 7's and 1-0 in game 5's.

Dirk has three different 30 and 10 game 7's.
:no:

[coin24]

You missed the 0 championhips stat:lol

Thanks for all those numbers, bring them back up when the mavs get bounced by the blazers or in the 2nd round...

If it's bs, go watch the 06 finals champ:oldlol:

[XSNiper]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/573817-clutch-much-the-ten-top-players-in-the-clutch-so-far-this-season/page/13

[Clutch]

Ray Allen is the "clutchest" player of this generation.

Also you can add:
Kevin Garnett is the clutchest at setting illegal screens
Refs are clutchest at making bad calls,they also have perfect timing.

[TMacsOneGoodEye]

Dirk gotta be first, but Ray hits those shots. Shuttlesworth plays.

[Boston C's]

Everyone who says ray is not clutch is retarded... he is the most clutch player on his celtics team so all of you haters can suck it and if you dont believe that you can ask k.g and pierce as in an interview they asked all three of them who would they want takin the last shot between them and both THE TRUTH AND THE BIG TICKET said RAY ALLEN that enough should silence people while ray as humble as he is said the open man but he knows he will knock down the dagger any day of the week... ray is the man i want takin a 3 with the game on the line if a 3 is needed while in all honesty kobe is number 1 (this obviously coming from a celtics fan) but for a 3 again i want ray and thats that... all you haters can take your laughable comments somewhere else saying ray is overrated in the clutch or isnt at all is really laughable

[Smoke117]

Seriously how many times does it have to be stated that Ron Artest kneed Allen in the thigh in game three and gave him a deep bone bruise that completely screwed up his jump...you know what you have to do...to take a jump shot? He didn't go cold in that series, he was hurt...he just doesn't complain about it like a lot of other players.

As far as clutch goes, Ray Allen is not just standing around waiting for a double team spotting up ala Robert Horry. (now that is bullshit fake clutch right there) It's a skill to run off a screen, catch the ball, and fire it right up. Nobody has such a quick release after the catch that Ray Allen does either...he see's the basket out of the corner of his eye before he releases it. That quick release is one of the things that allows him to get off a lot of his shots and why I think a lot of people think he's so "wide open"...he's only open that much because his release is so quick you barely have any time to put a hand in his face.

[Boston C's]

Thank you smoke... and I think someone in here said that teams dont gameplan for Allen some durant guy or w.e. Thats completely laughable.

"I know their game plan … they don't want me to get any shots," Allen said. "So if they can keep me off shooting the ball, they've done their job."

And Allen, despite fewer attempts, continues to do his job which is to spread the floor when given an opportunity.

But if the Knicks try and take that away, he has shown no hesitation in putting the ball on the floor and driving to the basket.

"Ray's always been more than just a 3-point shooter," Knicks guard Chauncey Billups told CSNNE.com earlier. "I mean, he's one of the greatest, maybe the greatest, ever at shooting 3-pointers. But you can't just play him looking for that all day. He can do some other things too, that can hurt you."

Haters gonna hate the man is clutch and teams do gameplan around him just as much as the other guys ppl who say otherwise obviously dont know anything about basketball. When it comes money time rays your guy, pierce has said it, k.g has said it and everyone knows it but like smoke said he only seems "wide open" because it takes him .7 seconds to get off his shot (see sports science for more on that) the man is a cold blooded assassin with the game on the line enough said.

[dillondavis]

Then he woke up and rembered games 3 4 5

[dillondavis]

Then he woke up and rembered games 3 4 5

[dillondavis]

dude. the list is sorted by ppg. kobe is scoring 8 more points per 48 minutes of crunch time. Kobe is taking 15 more shots than Dirk to score 8 more points.

Do you not understand how awful that is?

Kobe do what Kobe do

[OKCThunderUP]

[/B]

This is completely BS. Nothing more to say.

Dirk is the best elimination game player of this era and one of the best ever. Dirk averages 28 and 12 on 49% shooting in elimination games. He has 13 30 point games. Only Wilt has more all time.

Dirk has never lost a deciding game. He's 5-0. 4-0 in game 7's and 1-0 in game 5's.

Dirk has three different 30 and 10 game 7's.
:no:

This. Dirk is the most clutch player of the last decade, not Ray Allen.

[jlauber]

Wow so much hate in this thread:facepalm

I cant stand the efficiency and meaningless % arguments.. So what if kobe chucks, hes not afraid to throw them up when it matters unlike the serial choke artist lebron:lol

RayRay is clutch as fu*k, so is Pierce(cant stand him but props), Melo, Manu,etc etc

Dirk? Regular season hero, in the big games he goes missing. I know this is where everyone will bring up kobes game 7 BS but hey, pretty sure 2 time defending champs is better than Dirks 0 and the Mavs choking every year...

Take a close look at the rosters that Dirk has had in his career. He gets ripped for basically having a couple of poor post-seasons. And he gets the blame for his 67-15 team losing to the Warriors, but IMO, that team had no business going 67-15 to begin with. Without looking it up, I doubt there are very few posters who could name more than one or two teammates on those teams.

Furthermore,...take a real close look at his post-season numbers...and then compare them with Larry Bird's. I am not saying that Dirk is/was a better player than Bird, but it should give the uneducated posters a much better perspective.

And, as MAVS41 stated...Dirk has been one of the MOST clutch players in BIG games, in NBA history.

[Boston C's]

@DillonDavis...I have no idea what your trying to imply there. Seriously that holds no merit yea he had a lackluster finals but that doesnt change the fact that Ray is as clutch as they come...do I think hes the most clutch in this generation? No but he is extremely clutch and you cant take that away from him...if I recall kobe had a few subpar games in the finals as well but they are masked because he jacks up 25 shots a game. Didn't wanna go there with Kobe because I have much respect for the guy but its classless Laker fans like you that make me because you go and bash a hall of famer, class act, and arguably the leagues greatest ever shooter for no reason at all

[Boston C's]

Also gotta give a shout out to the man dirk...I'll respectfully disagree with some of you that say he is more clutch then ray as I slightly favor ray but the argument is there. Laker fans that bash dirk are ridiculous the guy is money with big games like it was already stated he is excellent in elimination games so stop hatin on the dirk too

[DMAVS41]

Take a close look at the rosters that Dirk has had in his career. He gets ripped for basically having a couple of poor post-seasons. And he gets the blame for his 67-15 team losing to the Warriors, but IMO, that team had no business going 67-15 to begin with. Without looking it up, I doubt there are very few posters who could name more than one or two teammates on those teams.

Furthermore,...take a real close look at his post-season numbers...and then compare them with Larry Bird's. I am not saying that Dirk is/was a better player than Bird, but it should give the uneducated posters a much better perspective.

And, as MAVS41 stated...Dirk has been one of the MOST clutch players in BIG games, in NBA history.

Another interesting nugget of information.

That 07 Warriors team won 42 games despite Baron/Harrington/Jackson/Richardson missing a combined 130 games in the regular season.

Not an excuse, but that team was at worst a 55 win team if healthy. They were healthy for the playoffs and a terrible match up for the Mavs.

[jlauber]

Another interesting nugget of information.

That 07 Warriors team won 42 games despite Baron/Harrington/Jackson/Richardson missing a combined 130 games in the regular season.

Not an excuse, but that team was at worst a 55 win team if healthy. They were healthy for the playoffs and a terrible match up for the Mavs.

Great post. And once again, look at Dirk's roster. Josh Howard, Jason Terry, Devin Harris, a washed-up Jerry Stackhouse, and Erick Dampier. Not one true #2 guy on that roster, and really, not even #3 guys on some team's.

And for those that rip Dirk's 05-06 team, which lost to Miami in the Finals, the Mavs beat the 63-19 Spurs in the playoffs, who may have been at their peak in the decade of the 00's.

[kaiiu]

Another interesting nugget of information.

That 07 Warriors team won 42 games despite Baron/Harrington/Jackson/Richardson missing a combined 130 games in the regular season.

Not an excuse, but that team was at worst a 55 win team if healthy. They were healthy for the playoffs and a terrible match up for the Mavs.
that Warrior team had GOAT perimeter talent.
Baron Davis
Jason Richardson
Stephen Jackson
Monta Ellis
Al Harrington
Mikael Pietrus
Matt Barnes

[DMAVS41]

Great post. And once again, look at Dirk's roster. Josh Howard, Jason Terry, Devin Harris, a washed-up Jerry Stackhouse, and Erick Dampier. Not one true #2 guy on that roster, and really, not even #3 guys on some team's.

And for those that rip Dirk's 05-06 team, which lost to Miami in the Finals, the Mavs beat the 63-19 Spurs in the playoffs, who may have been at their peak in the decade of the 00's.

Coming into the 06 season.

The Spurs were huge favorites to win the title.

Spurs 2 to 1
Heat 5 to 1
Mavs 20 to 1

People act like the Mavs were upset or something in the finals. The only reason we were favored was because we beat the Spurs and people lost faith in the Heat.

We had to grossly over achieve to even make it out of the 2nd round. And how did we?

Dirk's legendary road game 7 against Duncan and the Spurs. Just 37 and 15.

LOL....and posters like Branslowski have the audacity to call Dirk soft and a choker.

How many other players in history could put that up against Duncan?

[jlauber]

Coming into the 06 season.

The Spurs were huge favorites to win the title.

Spurs 2 to 1
Heat 5 to 1
Mavs 20 to 1

People act like the Mavs were upset or something in the finals. The only reason we were favored was because we beat the Spurs and people lost faith in the Heat.

We had to grossly over achieve to even make it out of the 2nd round. And how did we?

Dirk's legendary road game 7 against Duncan and the Spurs. Just 37 and 15.

LOL....and posters like Branslowski have the audacity to call Dirk soft and a choker.

How many other players in history could put that up against Duncan?

It just amazes me, as well. His entire reputation seems to be based on that Warrior upset (which, as you pointed out, was probably not that big of one considering the talent levels of the two teams.) He has put up EXCEPTIONAL numbers in his post-season career, and has been even BETTER in BIG games.

And, once again, his post-season numbers are right there with Bird's. He may not quite be at Bird's level, but damn it, he has been one of the greatest of all-time in the post-season.

[DMAVS41]

It just amazes me, as well. His entire reputation seems to be based on that Warrior upset (which, as you pointed out, was probably not that big of one considering the talent levels of the two teams.) He has put up EXCEPTIONAL numbers in his post-season career, and has been even BETTER in BIG games.

And, once again, his post-season numbers are right there with Bird's. He may not quite be at Bird's level, but damn it, he has been one of the greatest of all-time in the post-season.

4 players average over 25 and 10 in the playoffs.

Dirk/Hakeem/Baylor/Pettit

Thats it.

Go check the Mavs game thread. Branslowski is in there calling Dirk weak, mentally soft, and a choker. So frustrating.

His evidence? Two series. The 06 finals and the 07 Warriors series. Gets so old when pretty much every player of all time has played even worse in big series and games....including his favorite player Kobe.

Dirk is like my Wilt for you....so many BS perceptions. I'm not stopping until people educate themselves.

[jlauber]

4 players average over 25 and 10 in the playoffs.

Dirk/Hakeem/Baylor/Pettit
Thats it.

Go check the Mavs game thread. Branslowski is in there calling Dirk weak, mentally soft, and a choker. So frustrating.

His evidence? Two series. The 06 finals and the 07 Warriors series. Gets so old when pretty much every player of all time has played even worse in big series and games....including his favorite player Kobe.

Dirk is like my Wilt for you....so many BS perceptions. I'm not stopping until people educate themselves.

I will be honest with you, I didn't even know that. And ahead of Wilt, Kareem, Moses, Robinson, Bird, and Shaq.

Kind of puts his post-season career into a different perspective, doesn't it?

Perhaps there should be some kind of requirement to post here. Maybe posters should have to take an exam on NBA history. And, at the very least, be required to research the topic before they post on it.

[whoartthou]

I will be honest with you, I didn't even know that. And ahead of Wilt, Kareem, Moses, Robinson, Bird, and Shaq.

Kind of puts his post-season career into a different perspective, doesn't it?

Perhaps there should be some kind of requirement to post here. Maybe posters should have to take an exam on NBA history. And, at the very least, be required to research the topic before they post on it.

the requirement should be: "NO STANS"

[DMAVS41]

I will be honest with you, I didn't even know that. And ahead of Wilt, Kareem, Moses, Robinson, Bird, and Shaq.

Kind of puts his post-season career into a different perspective, doesn't it?

Perhaps there should be some kind of requirement to post here. Maybe posters should have to take an exam on NBA history. And, at the very least, be required to research the topic before they post on it.

That would be nice.

The worst part about it is that nobody...and i mean nobody is claiming Dirk is even a top 20 player of all time.

I probably rate him the highest and I have him right around 25th all time. I've never seen an all time great player disrespected so much and held to such an absurd standard that guys like stockton don't even come close to holding up to.

[jlauber]

That would be nice.

The worst part about it is that nobody...and i mean nobody is claiming Dirk is even a top 20 player of all time.

I probably rate him the highest and I have him right around 25th all time. I've never seen an all time great player disrespected so much and held to such an absurd standard that guys like stockton don't even come close to holding up to.

Especially if you include post-season play. I have said it before, but I have never really taken the time to rank an all-time list beyond maybe the top-10-12, or so...because you can throw a blanket over guys like Barkley, Moses, KG, Baylor, Karl Malone, Hondo, West, Barry, Dr. J, Robinson, and maybe a few other's that I have forgotten, but in any case, IMO, Dirk is VERY close to that group. And it could be argued that he has been at the same level, or better, than Reed, Stockton, Unseld, McHale, Worthy, Lucas, and McAdoo, too.

[Boston C's]

That would be nice.

The worst part about it is that nobody...and i mean nobody is claiming Dirk is even a top 20 player of all time.

I probably rate him the highest and I have him right around 25th all time. I've never seen an all time great player disrespected so much and held to such an absurd standard that guys like stockton don't even come close to holding up to.

Honestly I took one look at this statement and immediately thought you were crazy. After taking a closer look though I actually think your not that far off, looking at the 50 greatest players of all time that the NBA has ranked around 20 of them you can say are better then dirk and I say around 20 as in like 15 definite's and 5 you could make an arguement for. Though players like Kobe and Duncan that are active today get the nod over the dirkster from me your perception isn't as farfetched after looking closer. It sucks that Dirk doesnt have a ring because he deserves one and ultimately in this league you are judged by rings which sucks because it undermines dirk as a player.

[Kevin_Garnett_5]

Also you can add:
Kevin Garnett is the clutchest at setting illegal screens
Refs are clutchest at making bad calls,they also have perfect timing.:oldlol: This guy is so salty. Game 1 will haunt him for the rest of his life.

[Boston C's]

Btw Sry I'm new here and I dont know how to highlight other peoples quotes like all of you know how too btw

[DMAVS41]

That would be nice.

The worst part about it is that nobody...and i mean nobody is claiming Dirk is even a top 20 player of all time.

I probably rate him the highest and I have him right around 25th all time. I've never seen an all time great player disrespected so much and held to such an absurd standard that guys like stockton don't even come close to holding up to.

Honestly I took one look at this statement and immediately thought you were crazy. After taking a closer look though I actually think your not that far off, looking at the 50 greatest players of all time that the NBA has ranked around 20 of them you can say are better then dirk and I say around 20 as in like 15 definite's and 5 you could make an arguement for. Though players like Kobe and Duncan that are active today get the nod over the dirkster from me your perception isn't as farfetched after looking closer. It sucks that Dirk doesnt have a ring because he deserves one and ultimately in this league you are judged by rings which sucks because it undermines dirk as a player.


Where would rank Stockton?

[jlauber]

That would be nice.

The worst part about it is that nobody...and i mean nobody is claiming Dirk is even a top 20 player of all time.

I probably rate him the highest and I have him right around 25th all time. I've never seen an all time great player disrespected so much and held to such an absurd standard that guys like stockton don't even come close to holding up to.

Honestly I took one look at this statement and immediately thought you were crazy. After taking a closer look though I actually think your not that far off, looking at the 50 greatest players of all time that the NBA has ranked around 20 of them you can say are better then dirk and I say around 20 as in like 15 definite's and 5 you could make an arguement for. Though players like Kobe and Duncan that are active today get the nod over the dirkster from me your perception isn't as farfetched after looking closer. It sucks that Dirk doesnt have a ring because he deserves one and ultimately in this league you are judged by rings which sucks because it undermines dirk as a player.

Excellent post.

And that is one of the problems here...the PERCEPTION of a player's career. For anyone to claim that Dirk was a "choker" is absolutely ridiculous.

If you really take the time to examine his career, and compare with the top-50 players, he is certainly in the middle of the group. And, if he does manage to get a ring, I think you could move him up past some of those that are generally ranked ahead of him.

[Boston C's]

I actually dont have him ahead of dirk although I do think stockton is a great player, by ranking do you mean if he was one of the people I have ahead of dirk or top 50 in general because if its the second that would take a while for me to look at and compare the players lol

[DMAVS41]

I actually dont have him ahead of dirk although I do think stockton is a great player, by ranking do you mean if he was one of the people I have ahead of dirk or top 50 in general because if its the second that would take a while for me to look at and compare the players lol

I was just curious. In pretty much every list I've seen Stockton is somewhere from 23 to 30 all time.

Bill Simmons has him at 25 all time. Not that Simmons is the end all be all or anything, but its a good indication at least.

My point is that I really don't see much of an argument for Stockton over Dirk at this point....and especially going forward if Dirk plays a few more years at even close to the level he is now.

[Boston C's]

I was just curious. In pretty much every list I've seen Stockton is somewhere from 23 to 30 all time.

Bill Simmons has him at 25 all time. Not that Simmons is the end all be all or anything, but its a good indication at least.

My point is that I really don't see much of an argument for Stockton over Dirk at this point....and especially going forward if Dirk plays a few more years at even close to the level he is now.


Yea I agree I think that Stocktons reputation as the games all time leading assist man gets him more credit, as for me ranking him all time at first glance I would probably put him in the late 30's range but that is at first glance, its pretty tough to come up with players off the top of my head at the moment but for some reason I feel like if I looked more in depth I would put him closer to 50 then anything but thats just speculation that I dont feel like doing at the moment lol

[jlauber]

Yea I agree I think that Stocktons reputation as the games all time leading assist man gets him more credit, as for me ranking him all time at first glance I would probably put him in the late 30's range but that is at first glance, its pretty tough to come up with players off the top of my head at the moment but for some reason I feel like if I looked more in depth I would put him closer to 50 then anything but thats just speculation that I dont feel like doing at the moment lol

These all-time lists are difficult. Even I tend to forget guys like Pettit and Mikan. In any case, Dirk has been among the very best players of his era...and is certainly among the best who have ever played the game.

[Boston C's]

These all-time lists are difficult. Even I tend to forget guys like Pettit and Mikan. In any case, Dirk has been among the very best players of his era...and is certainly among the best who have ever played the game.


Yea its extremely tough and it really takes a lot of time to look into...its tougher for people like me who didnt really see and appreciate the players like you mentioned back in the day because they are all time greats as well...we can only look to stats to tell us things but one thing stats dont tell is the intangibles like leadership, composure, motivation, etc that really seperate some players from others.

[jlauber]

Yea its extremely tough and it really takes a lot of time to look into...its tougher for people like me who didnt really see and appreciate the players like you mentioned back in the day because they are all time greats as well...we can only look to stats to tell us things but one thing stats dont tell is the intangibles like leadership, composure, motivation, etc that really seperate some players from others.

Exactly. And we simply don't know how players would fare across eras. All we can really judge players by, is how they played against their own peers.

[Boston C's]

Exactly. And we simply don't know how players would fare across eras. All we can really judge players by, is how they played against their own peers.


just wanna say lmao to Hulk Hogan on the other thread...I'm guessing from your last response you know him a little bit, is he just a Kobe lover or something because its ridiculous that he just says NOT CLUTCH and doesnt back it up at all

[jlauber]

just wanna say lmao to Hulk Hogan on the other thread...I'm guessing from your last response you know him a little bit, is he just a Kobe lover or something because its ridiculous that he just says NOT CLUTCH and doesnt back it up at all

He gives the Kobe fans a bad rep. I am a huge Kobe fan myself, but it is senseless to rip guys like Lebron, Howard, Dirk, Wade, Duncan, and other's.

The true BASKETBALL fans appreciate the GREATS that play, and have played, the game.

[Boston C's]

He gives the Kobe fans a bad rep. I am a huge Kobe fan myself, but it is senseless to rip guys like Lebron, Howard, Dirk, Wade, Duncan, and other's.

The true BASKETBALL fans appreciate the GREATS that play, and have played, the game.


Yea even though I am a celtic fan Kobe is a baller and I am a fan of his work just not when he plays against us lol... at least if he tried having a valid argument it would be something but he doesnt even give one

[DMAVS41]

He gives the Kobe fans a bad rep. I am a huge Kobe fan myself, but it is senseless to rip guys like Lebron, Howard, Dirk, Wade, Duncan, and other's.

The true BASKETBALL fans appreciate the GREATS that play, and have played, the game.

Yep. Its really hard because Kobe has come up small so many times and when his fans are always pointing out those times with others....you have come right back at them with the same stuff.

The difference is that almost nobody would ever claim kobe to be a choker or not a top 10...top 12 at worst player of all time.

But Kobe's fans call dirk a choker...even normal fans. Kobe just has the worst fan base of any player in any sport of all time. Its really hard to not let that impact how you judge Kobe.

Just look at the Mavs game thread right now. You'd think Dirk played awful ro something and who is ragging on Dirk? 2 huge Kobe fans. Wound up with 25/9/2 and made 3 of his last 4 shots in a pretty tight game.

Sigh............

[talkingconch]

carmelo Anthony

[Batz]

carmelo Anthony
steve nash


or is that the greatest shooter argument? :confusedshrug:

[jlauber]

Yep. Its really hard because Kobe has come up small so many times and when his fans are always pointing out those times with others....you have come right back at them with the same stuff.

The difference is that almost nobody would ever claim kobe to be a choker or not a top 10...top 12 at worst player of all time.

But Kobe's fans call dirk a choker...even normal fans. Kobe just has the worst fan base of any player in any sport of all time. Its really hard to not let that impact how you judge Kobe.

Just look at the Mavs game thread right now. You'd think Dirk played awful ro something and who is ragging on Dirk? 2 huge Kobe fans. Wound up with 25/9/2 and made 3 of his last 4 shots in a pretty tight game.

Sigh............

Yeah...not one of Dirk's better games...and yet, 25-9-2 on 10-21 shooting. I hate to always bring Wilt into every discussion, but he used to get ripped for 46-34 games. I mentioned it in another thread, but he had a 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, .625 Finals, and basically on one leg...including a 21-24 game on 10-16 shooting in game seven...and he was labeled a "choker", while a hobbled Reed had a 4-3 game, and was praised as a hero. I have battled crap like that for nearly 50 years now.

[DMAVS41]

Yeah...not one of Dirk's better games...and yet, 25-9-2 on 10-21 shooting. I hate to always bring Wilt into every discussion, but he used to get ripped for 46-34 games. I mentioned it in another thread, but he had a 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, .625 Finals, and basically on one leg...including a 21-24 game on 10-16 shooting in game seven...and he was labeled a "choker", while a hobbled Reed had a 4-3 game, and was praised as a hero. I have battled crap like that for nearly 50 years now.

Yep. And the worst part is that nobody is claiming Dirk played great. His stretch of 7 straight misses really hurt the Mavs tonight. We needed Dirk to kill he run.....he couldn't do it. And that might actually have been the difference in the game.

But I swear people don't understand what "mentally weak", "soft", "choker".....actually mean.

You don't average nearly 11 boards in the playoffs if you are soft. Dirk once again did a very good job on the defensive glass tonight. Led the team in rebounding.

This is a tough series for Dirk. He has to keep Camby off the glass and he has to score on the likes of aldridge, batum, wallace on offense while getting doubled every time he makes a move.

And this isn't prime Dirk anymore. He's older now and is still clearly bothered a bit by his knee injury this season.

Its just a shame that we lost Butler. I truly believe this team was capable of winning the title with a healthy Butler. We would really have no weaknesses with him healthy. Just a damn shame.

As for Wilt. I heard Ric Bucher call out Wilt the other day and say that when you are that good and you don't win a bunch....something is missing. Yep...its call great teammates. He was comparing Wilt to Lebron and his assertion was that they put up "empty stats"....I of course could not disagree more and his points were very troubling. A basketball man like that who clearly is just unwilling to look at the circumstances of players.

He later claimed that Lebron's Cavs team from 09 and 10 were significantly better than the current Bulls teams and that Rose could have won 66 in 09 like Lebron did. I don't get it.

Sometimes I really do feel like i'm watching a completely different game than everyone else.

[Boston C's]

Yep. And the worst part is that nobody is claiming Dirk played great. His stretch of 7 straight misses really hurt the Mavs tonight. We needed Dirk to kill he run.....he couldn't do it. And that might actually have been the difference in the game.

But I swear people don't understand what "mentally weak", "soft", "choker".....actually mean.

You don't average nearly 11 boards in the playoffs if you are soft. Dirk once again did a very good job on the defensive glass tonight. Led the team in rebounding.

This is a tough series for Dirk. He has to keep Camby off the glass and he has to score on the likes of aldridge, batum, wallace on offense while getting doubled every time he makes a move.

And this isn't prime Dirk anymore. He's older now and is still clearly bothered a bit by his knee injury this season.

Its just a shame that we lost Butler. I truly believe this team was capable of winning the title with a healthy Butler. We would really have no weaknesses with him healthy. Just a damn shame.

As for Wilt. I heard Ric Bucher call out Wilt the other day and say that when you are that good and you don't win a bunch....something is missing. Yep...its call great teammates. He was comparing Wilt to Lebron and his assertion was that they put up "empty stats"....I of course could not disagree more and his points were very troubling. A basketball man like that who clearly is just unwilling to look at the circumstances of players.

He later claimed that Lebron's Cavs team from 09 and 10 were significantly better than the current Bulls teams and that Rose could have won 66 in 09 like Lebron did. I don't get it.

Sometimes I really do feel like i'm watching a completely different game than everyone else.

It's funny because I didn't consider the mavs a threat to come out the west but after seeing how wide open the west really is butler could have been the difference maker for you guys to come out of the west...and in the finals we know anything can happen (though I think my celtics match up better then you guys but then again it could be my bias speaking lol)

[jlauber]

Yep. And the worst part is that nobody is claiming Dirk played great. His stretch of 7 straight misses really hurt the Mavs tonight. We needed Dirk to kill he run.....he couldn't do it. And that might actually have been the difference in the game.

But I swear people don't understand what "mentally weak", "soft", "choker".....actually mean.

You don't average nearly 11 boards in the playoffs if you are soft. Dirk once again did a very good job on the defensive glass tonight. Led the team in rebounding.

This is a tough series for Dirk. He has to keep Camby off the glass and he has to score on the likes of aldridge, batum, wallace on offense while getting doubled every time he makes a move.

And this isn't prime Dirk anymore. He's older now and is still clearly bothered a bit by his knee injury this season.

Its just a shame that we lost Butler. I truly believe this team was capable of winning the title with a healthy Butler. We would really have no weaknesses with him healthy. Just a damn shame.

As for Wilt. I heard Ric Bucher call out Wilt the other day and say that when you are that good and you don't win a bunch....something is missing. Yep...its call great teammates. He was comparing Wilt to Lebron and his assertion was that they put up "empty stats"....I of course could not disagree more and his points were very troubling. A basketball man like that who clearly is just unwilling to look at the circumstances of players.

He later claimed that Lebron's Cavs team from 09 and 10 were significantly better than the current Bulls teams. I don't get it.

Sometimes I really do feel like i'm watching a completely different game than everyone else.

It would have been one thing if Wilt just collapsed in the post-season. Or if guys like Russell were ROUTINELY hanging 30-30 games on him, as he did to Russell...but that was NEVER the case (actually Russell had two 30-30 post season games against Wilt...and Chamberlain outscored him in both.) Not only that, but as I have pointed out MANY times...Chamberlain's TEAM's lost FOUR game seven's to Russell's HOF-laden Celtic Dynasty...by a TOTAL of NINE points. So, Wilt was an AVERAGE of 2.3 ppg in those FOUR games, from holding a 5-3 edge over Russell in H2H post-season play (and surely FOUR more rings, as well.) Throw in a game five of the '70 Finals, when the officials blatantly gave NY a win in a close game...and Wilt's 45-27 game six would have won yet ANOTHER ring.

Where would Wilt rank on most lists, including Bucher's, if he had SEVEN rings?

[DMAVS41]

It would have been one thing if Wilt just collapsed in the post-season. Or if guys like Russell were ROUTINELY hanging 30-30 games on him, as he did to Russell...but that was NEVER the case (actually Russell had two 30-30 post season games against Wilt...and Chamberlain outscored him in both.) Not only that, but as I have pointed out MANY times...Chamberlain's TEAM's lost FOUR game seven's to Russell's HOF-laden Celtic Dynasty...by a TOTAL of NINE points. So, Wilt was an AVERAGE of 2.3 ppg in those FOUR games, from holding a 5-3 edge over Russell in H2H post-season play (and surely FOUR more rings, as well.) Throw in a game five of the '70 Finals, when the officials blatantly gave NY a win in a close game...and Wilt's 45-27 game six would have won yet ANOTHER ring.

Where would Wilt rank on most lists, including Bucher's, if he had SEVEN rings?

Right. I feel like I should write a book trying to explain why ranking players off of rings so heavily is flawed.

I know we have talked about all this before, but I do really enjoy have intelligent discussions.

Teams win titles. Winning titles in the NBA might be the hardest thing to do in all of sports. Winning is such a fragile thing. The difference between winning and losing a big game can be dependent on any number of variables.

How many titles just in this era have been impacted in huge ways by role players like Horry, Fisher, PJ Brown, Kerr, Haslem (his defense on Dirk in 06)....etc.

Teams win. You have pointed out so many times how often times the level of play isn't at its peak for some of the all time greats. KG in 08 is a perfect example of this. His entire career is now looked at differently because he won a title even though his level of play had clearly dropped from his peak.

Lebron is probably going to be the best example of this of all time. If he wins a title this year or next year, people will completely change how they view his first 8 years. What he did in Cleveland will be looked at in a much more positive light if he wins a couple titles.

People forget that MJ was labeled as a loser his first 6 years. All I ever heard was how his selfish style could never win.

Hakeem took until his 10th year to win a title I think.
Shaq took until his 8th year I think.

I wonder what Ric Bucher would say about those guys before they won? Were they all stats and no substance?

Its just so much BS. I just can't believe intelligent people take the stances they do. I guess its just so much easier to focus on black and white things like winning and losing. Heaven forbid we actually care how players play the damn game.....

[Boston C's]

Ill end the thread in the spirit of it by saying hail to mr. shuttlesworth for he is indeed much in the clutch lol

[jlauber]

[/B]

Right. I feel like I should write a book trying to explain why ranking players off of rings so heavily is flawed.

I know we have talked about all this before, but I do really enjoy have intelligent discussions.

Teams win titles. Winning titles in the NBA might be the hardest thing to do in all of sports. Winning is such a fragile thing. The difference between winning and losing a big game can be dependent on any number of variables.

How many titles just in this era have been impacted in huge ways by role players like Horry, Fisher, PJ Brown, Kerr, Haslem (his defense on Dirk in 06)....etc.

Teams win. You have pointed out so many times how often times the level of play isn't at its peak for some of the all time greats. KG in 08 is a perfect example of this. His entire career is now looked at differently because he won a title even though his level of play had clearly dropped from his peak.

Lebron is probably going to be the best example of this of all time. If he wins a title this year or next year, people will completely change how they view his first 8 years. What he did in Cleveland will be looked at in a much more positive light if he wins a couple titles.

People forget that MJ was labeled as a loser his first 6 years. All I ever heard was how his selfish style could never win.

Hakeem took until his 10th year to win a title I think.
Shaq took until his 8th year I think.

I wonder what Ric Bucher would say about those guys before they won? Were they all stats and no substance?

Its just so much BS. I just can't believe intelligent people take the stances they do. I guess its just so much easier to focus on black and white things like winning and losing. Heaven forbid we actually care how players play the damn game.....

I enjoy them as well.

:cheers:

And I agree 100% on rings, as well. They do validate a great career, but as you said, so much is dependent on factors beyond ONE player's control.

"Havlicek steals the ball!"

And Sam Jones hit game-winning shots in game seven of the '62 ECF's (and over Wilt's outstretched hand BTW), and then another game winner in the '69 Finals, in game four, at the buzzer, and while falling down.

In fact, the '69 Finals were a great example of a COMBINATION of factors contributing to yet another frustrating post-season for Wilt. In that 4th game, Jones hit the game winner at the buzzer, but had Johnny Egan been able to hold onto the ball in the last few seconds of that game, the Lakers would have won the game, 88-87, and then taken a 3-1 series lead. In game five, Wilt dominated Russell, outrebounding him by a 31-13 margin, and LA won easily, 117-104. So, without either Egan's gaffe, or Jone's miracle shot, the Lakers would have romped to a 4-1 series win. On top of that, Baylor was non-existant in games three thru five (two of them losses), when he scored a TOTAL of 24 points in those three games. Then, we all know what happened in game seven. With the Lakers roaring back from a 17 point 4th quarter deficit, having cut it to seven with six minutes left, Wilt injured his knee, and had to come out for a couple of minutes. He asked to go back in, but his incompetent coach refused, instead choosing to ride the great Mel Counts in the waning minutes...and Counts missed a couple of shots down the stretch, en route to a 4-13 performance (Wilt had gone 7-8 BTW.) Meanwhile, Don Nelson hit yet another miraculous shot near the end of the game, and the Lakers lost games seven by two points. My god, ...SEVERAL implausible events prevented Wilt from getting another ring that season.

Same with the 67-68 ECF's, when the Sixers blew a 3-1 series lead. Why? Well, for starters, they were already without injured HOFer Billy Cunningham before the series even began. Then, in game five, BOTH Luke Jackson and Wali Jones suffered leg injuries. Even worse, was that Wilt was nursing a bad foot, arthritis in his knee, and a hamstring injury...and was noticeably limping from game three on. On top of all of that, in the second half of game seven, Wilt only TOUCHED the ball on the offensive end seven times (and only twice in the 4th quarter)...and his teammates collectively shot 33%, in a 100-96 loss. Had Philly been anyhwere near as healthy as they were in the previous season, when the crushed the Celtics in five games en route to a title, and it would probably have been a repeat. Furthermore, how would a healthy Sixer squad have fared against a Celtic team that was devastated by injuries like the Sixers were?

But the uneducated (and evidently that includes Bucher) just look at Russell's 7-1 edge in their H2H post-season series (and in most he had had a HUGE edge in talent)...and ASSUME that he dominated Wilt, and that Chamberlain just "choked."

[dillondavis]

@DillonDavis...I have no idea what your trying to imply there. Seriously that holds no merit yea he had a lackluster finals but that doesnt change the fact that Ray is as clutch as they come...do I think hes the most clutch in this generation? No but he is extremely clutch and you cant take that away from him...if I recall kobe had a few subpar games in the finals as well but they are masked because he jacks up 25 shots a game. Didn't wanna go there with Kobe because I have much respect for the guy but its classless Laker fans like you that make me because you go and bash a hall of famer, class act, and arguably the leagues greatest ever shooter for no reason at all

Look my response was not towards ray being clutch or not it was towards some one that mentioned he gave the lakers nightmares the whole finals which to a degree is true yes, but ray is human I understand there's times when he goes cold but it was a particular bad time at home.

No different from Kobe in game 7 fatigue kicks in after 100+ games.


Ok now to you calling me a classless laker fan, you have no idea how unbias I am. As a matter of fact I think Miami in 6 vs lakers assuming lakers play lack luster as we've seen befor. I pick and choose when I post because I don't wanna come off as a homer or a kobestan.

I'm a real legit laker fan who's been watching since befor shaq n Kobe I'm a second generation fan of the game, and I have a very high respect for it and great players such as ray Allen himself who is one of the players I love watching play as well as d-rose d-Howard and steve Nash.

So try and understand who I am befor you start name calling.

But to to answer the post yes ray is clutch. IMO clutchest of generation no.

[Boston C's]

Look my response was not towards ray being clutch or not it was towards some one that mentioned he gave the lakers nightmares the whole finals which to a degree is true yes, but ray is human I understand there's times when he goes cold but it was a particular bad time at home.

No different from Kobe in game 7 fatigue kicks in after 100+ games.


Ok now to you calling me a classless laker fan, you have no idea how unbias I am. As a matter of fact I think Miami in 6 vs lakers assuming lakers play lack luster as we've seen befor. I pick and choose when I post because I don't wanna come off as a homer or a kobestan.

I'm a real legit laker fan who's been watching since befor shaq n Kobe I'm a second generation fan of the game, and I have a very high respect for it and great players such as ray Allen himself who is one of the players I love watching play as well as d-rose d-Howard and steve Nash.

So try and understand who I am befor you start name calling.

But to to answer the post yes ray is clutch. IMO clutchest of generation no.

I apologize for that to me I took your comment wrong and interpreted as a bashing of ray allen but I do agree with you about fatigue and such kicking in after so many games and it gets to every player (0-13 still unexcusable for my boy) and as for the most clutch of the generation although he is my favorite player of this generation I do agree with you about him not being the most clutch

[dillondavis]

I apologize for that to me I took your comment wrong and interpreted as a bashing of ray allen but I do agree with you about fatigue and such kicking in after so many games and it gets to every player (0-13 still unexcusable for my boy) and as for the most clutch of the generation although he is my favorite player of this generation I do agree with you about him not being the most clutch

Apology excepted bro I can understand how you can get annoyed easily by anybody with a laker Avy, believe me I get into it with bias lakers fans who just disrespect the game. Don't get me wrong game time vs Boston and Mia I'm talkin more smack then Reggie and Jordan ever could, but that's apart of being a fan And loving rivalries, but it doesn't take away from the respect I have for the game and it's players.

[Boston C's]

Apology excepted bro I can understand how you can get annoyed easily by anybody with a laker Avy, believe me I get into it with bias lakers fans who just disrespect the game. Don't get me wrong game time vs Boston and Mia I'm talkin more smack then Reggie and Jordan ever could, but that's apart of being a fan And loving rivalries, but it doesn't take away from the respect I have for the game and it's players.

haha no doubt and yea I def understand the smack talking for those games its what a fan should do lol...lets all just sit back and enjoy these playoffs because im sure they will be one to remember

[Just2McFly]

One of my most prophetic threads...bow to the clutch god... ray allen

[red1]

no doubt. clutchest n*gga in the history of clutchness

[FreezingTsmoove]

Ray Allen is dat nikka

[Just2McFly]

One of my most prophetic threads...bow to the clutch god... ray allen
and n*ggas try to tell me that reggie miller is more clutch name a guy that has come through more than ray allen?

[J Shuttlesworth]

Allen is my favorite player of all time :cheers:

[SilkkTheShocker]

By far the clutchest player ever. Name me a more clutch shot than his Game 6 one?

Fun Fact: You can't :oldlol:

[houston]

ray allen overrated as hell

[Boston C's]

ray allen overrated as hell

:roll: :roll: :roll:

if anything hes underrated

[Akrazotile]

http://www.respectkobe.com/img/kobe-finger.jpg



:roll:

[Akrazotile]

Except Kobe and Duncan.



:roll:

[Im so nba'd out]

ray passed reggie miller in my eyes as the clutchest 3 point shooter ever

[Im so nba'd out]

ray allen overrated as hell
your mother is overated

[houston]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

if anything hes underrated


Dude never won a championships as his team top 2 best palyer. He cost the celtics the 2010 title. He hitting nice shots as a spot up shooter that cool. Still remembers him having 0 points in game 7 finals.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Dude never won a championships as his team top 2 best palyer. He cost the celtics the 2010 title. He hitting nice shots as a spot up shooter that cool. Still remembers him having 0 points in game 7 finals.
Totally unrelated to this post, but would you consider Bosh a superstar?

[Boston C's]

Dude never won a championships as his team top 2 best palyer. He cost the celtics the 2010 title. He hitting nice shots as a spot up shooter that cool. Still remembers him having 0 points in game 7 finals.

you know how I can tell your a hater...when you spew bullshit...he had 13 points in game 7 with 9 coming in the 4th quarter so nice job on that buddy... your referring to his 0-13 game 3 which was horrible but even then he wasn't scoreless :lol not that it makes a difference but he had 2 points that game but it still shows that your wrong...ray never won as his teams top 2 best player because in his prime management would surround him with shit talent...your not a consensus top 10 sg of all time if your not a truly great player seattle ray had rashard "I can't average more then 5 boards and dissapear randomly" lewis...dude carried legit garbage to the playoffs in seattle in 2005 led the bucks to the conference finals in 2001...ray never in his career before k.g played with a competent big man (unless jerome james as your starting center counts :lol )

and finally to dispel the myth that he cost the celtics the 2010 championship check the stats...dude check the stats ray was in foul trouble in game one carried the C's game 2 stunk game 3 wasnt good game 4 was good game 5 and 6 and like i mentioned above was great in the 4th quarter of game 7...nobody mentions k.g getting only 3 boards in game 7 or pierce being 5-15 or any other bad pierce and k.g games (like game 2 when ray carried them) the C's lost because of size PERIOD...if they had perk for game 7 they probably win