LeBron vs Durant at age 21-Was LeBron really superior?

[joyner82]

Here is how it projects to be after this season per 36(if you want for their average minutes I can post these too. It changes nothing)


PPG
LeBron-26.5
Durant-27.1
Advantange-Durant

FGA
LeBron-19.5
Durant-18.5
Advantage-Durant

FG%
LeBron-48%
Durant-47.6%
Advantage-LeBron

3P%
LeBron-33.5%
Durant-36.4%
Advantage-Durant

FT%
LeBron-73.8%
Durant-89.1%
Advantage-Durant

TS%
LeBron-56.8%
Durant-60.2%
Advantage-Durant

USG%
LeBron-33.6%
Durant-31.9%
Advantage-Durant

ORB
LeBron-.8
Durant-1.1
Advantage-Durant

DRB
LeBron-5.2
Durant-5.8
Advantage-Durant

AST
LeBron-5.6
Durant-2.5
Advantage-LeBron

TO
LeBron-2.8
Durant-3.1
Advantage LeBron

Offenseive Rating
LeBron-115 PP100P
Durant-116 PP100P
Advantage-Durant

BLK
LeBron-.7
Durant-.8
Advantage-Durant

STL
LeBron-1.3
Durant-1.2
Advantage-LeBron

Defensive Rating
LeBron-104 PP100P
Durant-102 PP100P
Advantage-Durant

Win Shares
LeBron-16.3
Durant-16.7
Advantage-Durant

PER
LeBron-28.1
Durant-26.7
Advantage-LeBron

Team Record
LeBron 50-32
Durant 52-30
Advantage-Durant

+/-
LeBron +242
Durant +462
Advantage-Durant

Adjusted +/-
LeBron +361
Durant +622
Advantage-Durant

On/Off
LeBron +10.1
Durant +17.4
Advantage-Durant


Here is a chart with a direct comparison of the these stats of their individual teams when the player is On/Off the court. Durant dominates virtually every area. (Note Points scored, Points allowed, and Net points aren't based on 82 games for Durant but rather current)

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/2350/lebrondurant.jpg

So please explain to me, how was LeBron better than Durant at 21? Durant destroys him across the board and if anything LeBron can't even compare to Durant.

[SAKOTXA]

Durant 52-30
:oldlol:

[Ancient Legend]

LeBron was slightly better. Stats aren't everything.

[joyner82]

:oldlol:

OKC is 42-25 currently or .627

82 x .627 is 51.5

:lol

[SAKOTXA]

OKC is 42-25 currently or .627

82 x .627 is 51.5

:lol

What, if Durant and Westbrook die in a car crash? *knock on wood*.

[joyner82]

LeBron was slightly better. Stats aren't everything.

Yet Durant beats him in team accomplishments in a much tougher conference as well. Nothing supports LeBron being better than Durant other than opinions. Everything supports Durant being better than LeBron outside of 3 asp, which on a team AST% +/- it is proven to be null.

[joyner82]

What, if Durant and Westbrook die in a car crash? *knock on wood*.

What if the sun blew up tomorrow? Why predict who is going to win the championship this year or who will win the MVP? In b4 MVP is arleady set in stone

[SAKOTXA]

What if the sun blew up tomorrow? Why predict who is going to win the championship this year or who will win the MVP? In b4 MVP is arleady set in stone

It's a possibility...

Edit: And why are you so obsessed with proving people that Durant is better than Lebron at 21, have you posted in a thread that doesn't involve Durant or Lebron?

[joyner82]

It's a possibility...

Edit: And why are you so obsessed with proving people that Durant is better than Lebron at 21, have you posted in a thread that doesn't involve Durant or Lebron?

Look at my post history and you tell me. Also I'm not obsessed with proving it, how is this any different from someone saying X team was better than X team because.

[BlueandGold]

AST
LeBron-5.6
Durant-2.5
Advantage-LeBron

passing is a big part of the game.

[Fudge]

Yeah, so, we've all come to a final conclusion. You're stupid.

[joyner82]

Yeah, so, we've all come to a final conclusion. You're stupid.

Reduced to insults. LOL

He has nothing to refute the facts that Durant was vastly superior to LeBron at 21.

[joyner82]

passing is a big part of the game.


On/Off AST%

Cleveland/LeBron +0%
OKC/Durant -5%

And since you're basically saying assists outweight everything, why hasn't a pg been considered the best player in the league the last 15 years?

[Fudge]

Reduced to insults. LOL

He has nothing to refute the facts that Durant was vastly superior to LeBron at 21.
And you're still stupid. You haven't proven nothing. Sorry. Decent try though.

[Maniak]

On/Off AST%

Cleveland/LeBron +0%
OKC/Durant -5%

And since you're basically saying assists outweight everything, why hasn't a pg been considered the best player in the league the last 15 years?
Steve Nash and Chris Paul, and thats just recently

[kurple]

Lebron

[joyner82]

And you're still stupid. You haven't proven nothing. Sorry. Decent try though.

You haven't proven nothing.

you're still stupid.

lol

[joyner82]

Steve Nash and Chris Paul, and thats just recently

I was referring to every year of the past 15 years. Also Chris Paul was never considered the best in the game.

[Freshprince619]

Great Thread. Its funny how the stat worshiping Lebron fans NOW say stats arent everything Lmfao the hypocrisy. But yeah Durant was far more superior. Plus he's doing all this in a much more difficult Western Conference. When Lebron did it in the east Detroit was the only power house. Before Magic were good, Before Celtics landed big 3, before Atlanta became beast. So its easily Durant and by far a much more consistent player

[joyner82]

Great Thread. Its funny how the stat worshiping Lebron fans NOW say stats arent everything Lmfao the hypocrisy. But yeah Durant was far more superior. Plus he's doing all this in a much more difficult Western Conference. When Lebron did it in the east Detroit was the only power house. Before Magic were good, Before Celtics landed big 3, before Atlanta became beast. So its easily Durant and by far a much more consistent player

It's not even the stats, it's the team record as well...I don't see how someone could argue that Durant isn't superior or that it isn't at least extremely close.

[Lebron23]

LeBron was 2nd in MVP voting in the 2005-06 NBA Season. He should have been the youngest MVP in History. The Cleveland Cavaliers won 50 games for the first time since the 1993 NBA Season. They were also 20-10 against the Western Conference Teams. LeBron's 2nd scoring option Mr. Larry Hughes missed 46 games in the Regular Season.

LeBron averaged 31 on 48 FG% ppg, 8 rpg, 6 apg in the 2006 NBA Playoffs.

[Amil23]

lol.Wait until Durant passes Melo as 2nd best SF to compare him to Lebron

[Freshprince619]

LeBron was 2nd in MVP voting in the 2005-06 NBA Season. He should have been the youngest MVP in History. The Cleveland Cavaliers won 50 games for the first time since the 1993 NBA Season. They were also 20-10 against the Western Conference Teams. LeBron's 2nd scoring option Mr. Larry Hughes missed 46 games in the Regular Season.

LeBron averaged 31 ppg, 8 rpg, 6 apg in the 2006 NBA Playoffs.

Durant is also currently in 2nd place for MVP voting. Lebron having a weak team evens out to the weaker conference he was in

[Cangri]

It's not even the stats, it's the team record as well...I don't see how someone could argue that Durant isn't superior or that it isn't at least extremely close.
I agree, Durant is just as impressive as Lebron was @ age 21.

I wonder if Durant can keep improving each season.

[magnax1]

Durant is quite a bit better then Lebron was at 21
Per 36 minutes his stats are
27 ppg
7 rpg
2.5 apg
48% on 18 shots
Lebron's per 36 minutes were
26 ppg
6 rebounds
6 assists
48% in 20 shots
However Lebron was an absolutely horrifyingly bad defender. Lebron is a better passer, but also wasn't as skilled or efficient of a scorer. Their teams were pretty equal, but I'd definitely take Durant.

[che guevara]

If you're going to adjust for minutes, then you also have to adjust for pace. The 2006 Cavs played slower than the 2010 Thunder. I also find it funny that you act as if Lebron's massive advantage in assists isn't significant.

Lebron was a monster in the playoffs that year, averaging 31/8/6 on 48% shooting and he took the defending Eastern Champs to 7 games, losing game 6 by just 2 points. Let's see how Durant fairs in the playoffs before we compare.

[Lebron23]

Durant is also currently in 2nd place for MVP voting. Lebron having a weak team evens out to the weaker conference he was in

Durant is good, but right now I'd still take Kobe, Wade, and Melo over him. He might finish 2nd in MVP Voting, but he's not a better all around player than those players that I mentioned.

[magnax1]

Lebron was a beast in the playoffs? He averaged the same stats, however played about 5 more minutes then in the regular season. He didn't play bad like he did the next 2 playoffs, but he didn't play well.
I said Lebron was quite a bit better passer, but he more then loses that advantage with his terrible D, and then when you add scoring efficiency, I'd take Durant.

[PleezeBelieve]

Durant > LeBron

[Freshprince619]

Durant is good, but right now I'd still take Kobe, Wade, and Melo over him. He might finish 2nd in MVP Voting, but he's not a better all around player than those players that I mentioned.
Kobe & wade no. But melo is arguable. But were not talking about whose better today. Were just talking at the age of 21. He still has a long way to go to be mentioned better then the players you listed

[Kblaze8855]

Great Thread. Its funny how the stat worshiping Lebron fans NOW say stats arent everything Lmfao the hypocrisy.

If the stats are everything....

Lebron was putting up over 31/7/6 on 48% shooting. Durant doesnt have better numbers as it is. If you are gonna go down a list and modify stats to be what they would be if reality were different(Lebron did not play 36 minutes a game nor does Durant) and then act as if it is a failing to be shooting more or have a high usage rate(Jordans is the highest of all time) and call it a statistical advantage fine. But lets not act like they are stats that reflect how well you play basketball. Really...usage rate? Its hurting a team for Lebron to have the ball more or something? Of course not. But it suggests he has...what...more chances to produce stats? Perhaps he has it because of a positive...like say....being his teams best playmaker and player by such a wide margin they lean on him more?

A list of adjusted plus/minus the last few years had Amir Johnson over Kobe. But I care about it now? Peja led the league in Win Shares once. Andris Biedrins, Brad Miller, and Brian Cardinal led the league in offensive rating. Michael Jordan never did.

Why do I need to care about these things? I dont see it. Not to the extent I pretend that Lebron wasnt scoring more while being a better playmaker by a miles and a somewhat better defender.

Hes is better at the only thing I can ever see him being better at. Shooting jumpers. Not playing basketball.

[che guevara]

Lebron was a beast in the playoffs? He averaged the same stats, however played about 5 more minutes then in the regular season. He didn't play bad like he did the next 2 playoffs, but he didn't play well.
I said Lebron was quite a bit better passer, but he more then loses that advantage with his terrible D, and then when you add scoring efficiency, I'd take Durant.
:oldlol: 31/8/6 on 48% isn't playing well? Just shows how ridiculously good Lebron is. That is including the slow paced Pistons series. And why are we acting like Durant is a good defender? He's a slightly more efficient scorer - that's it. Lebron is equal or better in every other category, except a slight disadvantage in D (I'm guessing - from what I've seen Durant is just as bad on the defensive end as Lebron was at 21, but I'll give you guys the benefit of the doubt here). You can't adjust for minutes and not adjust for pace if you're trying to make an unbiased evaluation, which the you and the OP are clearly not interested in doing. You're the same guy who said Kobe was the MVP even after it was blatantly obvious that he had no case whatsoever.

[joyner82]

If you're going to adjust for minutes, then you also have to adjust for pace. The 2006 Cavs played slower than the 2010 Thunder. I also find it funny that you act as if Lebron's massive advantage in assists isn't significant.

Lebron was a monster in the playoffs that year, averaging 31/8/6 on 48% shooting and he took the defending Eastern Champs to 7 games, losing game 6 by just 2 points. Let's see how Durant fairs in the playoffs before we compare.

Probably because LeBron has a higher USG% than Durant

WTF does pace have to do with anything.

LeBron averaged 3 more FGA and .3 more FTA for the year. What does that have to do with pace?

OKC is attempting 80.6 FGA per game this year
Cleveland attempted 78.4 in 2006

Hardly a difference

[Kblaze8855]

However Lebron was an absolutely horrifyingly bad defender.

If only for phyiscal tools Lebron has never even been a below average defender. But he suffers from what many stars do. Being one of the few guys on the floor people pay attention to on D as an individual. Idiots were calling him one of the worst defenders in the league when he was on a team with Damon Jones...who nobody with common sense would put on a guy for defense instead of Lebron. The majority of his teammates have always been worse defenders than him.

But people said it anyway. The average NBA defender is doing nothing special. At his worst he wasnt even one of the lesser defenders in the league if only for the ability his physical tools gave him.

[magnax1]

:oldlol: 31/8/6 on 48% isn't playing well? Just shows how ridiculously good Lebron is. That is including the slow paced Pistons series. And why are we acting like Durant is a good defender? He's a slightly more efficient scorer - that's it. Lebron is equal or better in every other category, except a slight disadvantage in D. You can't adjust for minutes and not adjust for pace if you're trying to make an unbiased evaluation, which the you and the OP are clearly not interested in doing. You're the same guy who said Kobe was the MVP even after it was blatantly obvious that he had no case whatsoever.
Compared to his regular season? No its not playing well.


If only for phyiscal tools Lebron has never even been a below average defender. But he suffers from what many stars do. Being one of the few guys on the floor people pay attention to on D as an individual. Idiots were calling him one of the worst defenders in the league when he was on a team with Damon Jones...who nobody with common sense would put on a guy for defense instead of Lebron. The majority of his teammates have always been worse defenders than him.

But people said it anyway. The average NBA defender is doing nothing special. At his worst he wasnt even one of the lesser defenders in the league if only for the ability his physical tools gave him.
I disagree. Just because he was using most of his energy on offense doesn't make him a better defender. If so, you could say the same about Barkley. Hes not terrible anymore, but before 07 he was. He put basically no effort into the defensive end other then trying to fly around and get steals and blocks. Durant isn't anything special on D either, but hes not near as bad as Lebron was.

[joyner82]

:oldlol: 31/8/6 on 48% isn't playing well? Just shows how ridiculously good Lebron is. That is including the slow paced Pistons series. And why are we acting like Durant is a good defender? He's a slightly more efficient scorer - that's it. Lebron is equal or better in every other category, except a slight disadvantage in D (I'm guessing - from what I've seen Durant is just as bad on the defensive end as Lebron was at 21, but I'll give you guys the benefit of the doubt here). You can't adjust for minutes and not adjust for pace if you're trying to make an unbiased evaluation, which the you and the OP are clearly not interested in doing. You're the same guy who said Kobe was the MVP even after it was blatantly obvious that he had no case whatsoever.

Uh Durant's defensive rating is top 20 in the league this year. LeBron wasn't top 50 in his 3rd season.

Have you watched OKC play this year?

[che guevara]

Compared to his regular season? No its not playing well.

Regular season - 31/7/6.6 on 48% shooting. Playoffs - 31/8/6 on 48% shooting, 7 of the 13 games coming against one of the 4 best teams in the league. Yeah, what a serious dropoff.

[magnax1]

Regular season - 31/7/6.6 on 48% shooting. Playoffs - 31/8/6 on 48% shooting, 7 of the 13 games coming against one of the 4 best teams in the league. Yeah, what a serious dropoff.
Regular season-
42 minutes a game
Postseason- 47 minutes a game
I already pointed this out, if you want to ignore it, you can continue do so.

[Kblaze8855]

Id like to see the top 50. Usually its a handfull of guys from every good defensive team jumbled together same as plus/minus. Good teams have 3-4 guys near the top in plus minus just as good defensive teams have a number of guys near the top in defensive ratings. If teams dont score much vs your team...they shouldnt score much when your guys who play the most minutes are in.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Regular season-
42 minutes a game
Postseason- 47 minutes a game
I already pointed this out, if you want to ignore it, you can continue do so.

The 5 turnovers per game also can't be ignored.

[che guevara]

Id like to see the top 50. Usually its a handfull of guys from every good defensive team jumbled together same as plus/minus. Good teams have 3-4 guys near the top in plus minus just as good defensive teams have a number of guys near the top in defensive ratings. If teams dont score much vs your team...they shouldnt score much when your guys who play the most minutes are in.
Average Cleveland PPG in postseason - 90.4. Regular season - 97.6. That can't be ignored either.


The 5 turnovers per game also can't be ignored.
Good point.

[joyner82]

Id like to see the top 50. Usually its a handfull of guys from every good defensive team jumbled together same as plus/minus. Good teams have 3-4 guys near the top in plus minus just as good defensive teams have a number of guys near the top in defensive ratings. If teams dont score much vs your team...they shouldnt score much when your guys who play the most minutes are in.


Look at the people who won it. Almost all either won DPOY of the year that season or were considered in the top 2-3.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_yearly.html

Also here is where the expected Defensive POY candidates rank

Dwight Howard-#1
Gerald Wallace-#5
Andrew Bogut-#2
Josh Smith-#9
Anderson Varejao-#15

[joyner82]

Oh and whoever talked about team +/- numbers

Durant in on pace to finish at +462 on a 52 win team
His next closest teammate is on pace to finish at +320

A difference which is the largest in the NBA among teammates 1 and 2 on any playoff team

In 06 LeBron finished at +242 on a 50 win team
Eric Snow finished at +235

[abuC]

If you're going to use per 36 stats I don't see how you can then ignore the cumulative PER numbers, where in LeBron had a 28.1 PER vs Durants 25.4 PER.

Statistically when the numbers are added up and adjusted for pace LeBrons are better.

[joyner82]

If you're going to use per 36 stats I don't see how you can then ignore the cumulative PER numbers, where in LeBron had a 28.1 PER vs Durants 25.4 PER.

Statistically when the numbers are added up and adjusted for pace LeBrons are better.

Adjusted for recent trends, since January, Durant is on pace to finish at 26.7 PER.

Also adjusted for pace does not make LeBron's number better. The Cavs averaged 2 less FGA, that's a marginal differential.

[abuC]

Adjusted for recent trends, since January, Durant is on pace to finish at 26.7 PER.

Also adjusted for pace does not make LeBron's number better. The Cavs averaged 2 less FGA, that's a marginal differential.


26.7 is still lower than 28.1.

Also, whether the difference is great or small, the Cavs played at a slower pace.

[Amil23]

26.7 is still lower than 28.1.

Also, whether the difference is great or small, the Cavs played at a slower pace.
He's not to be reasoned with.His plan is to spread Durant propaganda to every NBA forum he can.

[joyner82]

26.7 is still lower than 28.1.

Also, whether the difference is great or small, the Cavs played at a slower pace.


The differential is inconsequential as it will not make LeBron overtake Durant in the area's I listed. You're looking at an increase of 1.5% which is minuscule to say the least. Also I never said Durant had a higher PER than LeBron. If I had an agenda I would have omitted PER from my OP.

[che guevara]

He's not to be reasoned with.His plan is to spread Durant propaganda to every NBA forum he can.
:oldlol: I just noticed, this shit is on RealGM too.

[Kblaze8855]

I know who led the league in it. I want to know who is top 20-50 since you seem to have access. Id like to see if what I suspect is true...that a gang of guys on good defenses are on the list when their individual defense doesnt justify a high ranking. As I said its something like plus minus. Anderson is second or third in the league...not becuase hes that good. But because his team is. And it means he will generally be outscoring opponents when he plays. Works the same with defensive rating. Good defensive team drags unworthy guys near the top. The very top is usualyl a great defender. But those guys drag merely ok guys near the top all the time and bad team defenses drag good defenders down.



I disagree. Just because he was using most of his energy on offense doesn't make him a better defender. If so, you could say the same about Barkley. Hes not terrible anymore, but before 07 he was. He put basically no effort into the defensive end other then trying to fly around and get steals and blocks. Durant isn't anything special on D either, but hes not near as bad as Lebron was.

Im not talking about where his energy goes. Just the defensive side. Lebron never was a bad defender compared to an average guy. But nobody looks at the average guy. We look at lebron not getting his hands up. But while being merely average he had the physical ability to make plays on D most cant. He was never even among the worst defenders in the league. Never a mismatch type you have to work around because he cant guard anyone. He was a subpar defender relative to his talent. Not subpar compared to Donyell Marshall or some other average player.

[Amil23]

:oldlol: I just noticed, this shit is on RealGM too.
:lol Go to the ESPN boards and its horrible.Just find the pic with the fat ass boy and its him:lol :oldlol: :roll:

[1987_Lakers]

:lol Go to the ESPN boards and its horrible.Just find the pic with the fat ass boy and its him:lol :oldlol: :roll:

http://avatars.espn.go.com/avatars/joyner82/275/joyner82.jpg

:eek:

[Amil23]

http://avatars.espn.go.com/avatars/joyner82/275/joyner82.jpg

:eek:
yep thats the one

[juju151111]

I know who led the league in it. I want to know who is top 20-50 since you seem to have access. Id like to see if what I suspect is true...that a gang of guys on good defenses are on the list when their individual defense doesnt justify a high ranking. As I said its something like plus minus. Anderson is second or third in the league...not becuase hes that good. But because his team is. And it means he will generally be outscoring opponents when he plays. Works the same with defensive rating. Good defensive team drags unworthy guys near the top. The very top is usualyl a great defender. But those guys drag merely ok guys near the top all the time and bad team defenses drag good defenders down.




Im not talking about where his energy goes. Just the defensive side. Lebron never was a bad defender compared to an average guy. But nobody looks at the average guy. We look at lebron not getting his hands up. But while being merely average he had the physical ability to make plays on D most cant. He was never even among the worst defenders in the league. Never a mismatch type you have to work around because he cant guard anyone. He was a subpar defender relative to his talent. Not subpar compared to Donyell Marshall or some other average player.
Yea, but so is Durant this season getting looked at. He is getting called a good defender this year and LJ wasn't in 06. They bpth are getting looked at because he a star, but it never came out of someone month that LJ was a good defender in 06.

[magnax1]

Im not talking about where his energy goes. Just the defensive side. Lebron never was a bad defender compared to an average guy. But nobody looks at the average guy. We look at lebron not getting his hands up. But while being merely average he had the physical ability to make plays on D most cant. He was never even among the worst defenders in the league. Never a mismatch type you have to work around because he cant guard anyone. He was a subpar defender relative to his talent. Not subpar compared to Donyell Marshall or some other average player.
Well, I think we just disagree. He definitely was below the average. A guy like Tony Parker, who is a pretty bad man to man defender, but you stick him on a team with a bunch of capable defenders, and he doesn't look so bad. I think thats aveage, and Lebron was worse then that. He was the kind of guy who if you stick on Danny Granger would give up an automatic 35 points on defense (not allowing Granger to score 35 points, but overall during the whole game giving up 35 points) Where Granger against a normal player would only create about 30 points for his team.

[Mamba]

go and do lebron vs durant at age 20. tell me wat u find.

[Lebron23]

Per 36 is a very flawed stats. If we use these stats it means that Shaq is still better than Gasol this season.

2006 LeBron > 2010 Durant. ( Pure statistical comparison)

[magnax1]

Well I think its flawed if one player couldn't play 36 minutes. Other then that, I don't really see any problems with it.

[joyner82]

Per 36 is a very flawed stats. If we use these stats it means that Shaq is still better than Gasol this season.

2006 LeBron > 2010 Durant. ( Pure statistical comparison)

LOL

The only thing that changes in the minutes they actually average is that LBJ averages 1.5 more ppg on 3 more FGA.

[Diesel J]

Yes he was....

31 7 7..nuff said:pimp:

[joyner82]

Yes he was....

31 7 7..nuff said:pimp:

What's better?

31 on 23 shots or 30 on 20 shots

[Lebron23]

http://avatars.espn.go.com/avatars/joyner82/275/joyner82.jpg

:eek:


Joyner82

:oldlol: :roll: :oldlol:

[joyner82]

Joyner82

:oldlol: :roll: :oldlol:


http://images.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.*******%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=fat+kid+popsicle&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&start=0


Clearly that's me

[Diesel J]

What's better?

31 on 23 shots or 30 on 20 shots


whats better 0.8 ast/TO ratio or 2/0 to TO ratio?

[lilgodfather1]

LeBron by far. This really isn't even a comparison, more points, assists, rebounds on the same shooting on a much worse team.

[joyner82]

LeBron by far. This really isn't even a comparison, more points, assists, rebounds on the same shooting on a much worse team.

*Looks at post*

*Moves head left and sees avatar*

*laughs*

[joyner82]

whats better 0.8 ast/TO ratio or 2/0 to TO ratio?

AST and TO's are in the OP. Both in favor of LeBron, that's basically the only thing in his favor.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Is this even a question? LBJ didnt have teammates as good as Westbrook and J.Green when he led his team to playoff and then the finals in the following year.

[joyner82]

Is this even a question? LBJ didnt have teammates as good as Westbrook and J.Green when he led his team to playoff and then the finals in the following year.

Big Z was an all star. Varejao was extremely serviceable. Hughes was a good 3rd option at that time. The Cavs weren't that bad.

[RealKnowledge]

Is this even a question? LBJ didnt have teammates as good as Westbrook and J.Green when he led his team to playoff and then the finals in the following year.
Lmao J.Green is a star now? Westbrook only looks as good is because of Durant. He gets majority of his assist of feeding durant off screens

[DuMa]

i think the comparison is close but if durant doesnt get out of the first round or if he doesnt win a playoff game with good numbers, the comparison falls flat on its face....

[Dave3]

Issues with the premises:

1. The comparisons are being broken down to per 36 min. A player should get credit for what he does, not what he does per minute. If you're going to control for minutes played, then also control for pace. Otherwise, compare raw numbers, which will give LeBron several more advantages.

2. The advantages that Durant has are like 0.2 rpg or miniscule percentage points, whereas LeBron's advantages are more significant, so comparing only the number of advantages doesn't objectively show who is better.

3. You're breaking up stats way too much to make Durant look like he had more advantages than he actually does. No one ever breaks down rebounds into offensive and defensive. It's just rebounding. Also, for shooting percentages, there's FG, 3FG% and FT%, but you're showing those, then eFG%, then TS%, then even PPS, which is just the same idea over and over again to create the illusion that Durant has many more advantages than he actually does. The way you break down the stats is very redundant for that reason.

4. Durant plays with a better supporting cast allowing him to have an easier time on offense, so the comparison should go way beyond the stats. LeBron had better playmaking skills which isn't a stat, he disrupted teams more on his off ball defense, and he had to put up with horrid offensive coaching, which all negatively affected his stats.

Edit:
5. It's not "LeBron:50-32 and Durant:52-30" It's Cavaliers: 50-32 and Thunder:52-30.

[joyner82]

Issues with the premises:

1. The comparisons are being broken down to per 36 min. A player should get credit for what he does, not what he does per minute. If you're going to control for minutes played, then also control for pace. Otherwise, compare raw numbers, which will give LeBron several more advantages.

2. The advantages that Durant has are like 0.2 rpg or miniscule percentage points, whereas LeBron's advantages are more significant, so comparing only the number of advantages doesn't objectively show who is better.

3. You're breaking up stats way too much to make Durant look like he had more advantages than he actually does. No one ever breaks down rebounds into offensive and defensive. It's just rebounding. Also, for shooting percentages, there's FG, 3FG% and FT%, but you're showing those, then eFG%, then TS%, then even PPS, which is just the same idea over and over again to create the illusion that Durant has many more advantages than he actually does. The way you break down the stats is very redundant for that reason.

4. Durant plays with a better supporting cast allowing him to have an easier time on offense, so the comparison should go way beyond the stats. LeBron had better playmaking skills which isn't a stat, he disrupted teams more on his off ball defense, and he had to put up with horrid offensive coaching, which all negatively affected his stats.


Who would you prefer to succeed? Durant or LeBron

[Dave3]

Who would you prefer to succeed? Durant or LeBron
I don't see how that relates to anything I said lol...I would prefer for both of them to succeed equally. I don't care who succeeds out of the two.

[RealKnowledge]

I don't see how that relates to anything I said lol...I would prefer for both of them to succeed equally. I don't care who succeeds out of the two.
He meant who are you a fan of? Lebron. So your a lil biased

[Dave3]

He meant who are you a fan of? Lebron. So your a lil biased
Everyone is biased. The best people at arguing are the ones who know how to push the bias aside when making the arguments. Nothing from what I said was biased, so it's irrelevant. It's the equivalent of saying that his premises are all useless because he's a fan of Durant or that your premises about the Magic are all useless because you hate Dwight. You have to take the argument for what is is, not who's presenting it;)

Welcome back RG :hammerhead:

[joyner82]

Everyone is biased. The best people at arguing are the ones who know how to push the bias aside when making the arguments. Nothing from what I said was biased, so it's irrelevant. It's the equivalent of saying that his premises are all useless because he's a fan of Durant or that your premises about the Magic are all useless because you hate Dwight. You have to take the argument for what is is, not who's presenting it;)

Welcome back RG :hammerhead:


I'm biased in favor of Durant. Virtually everyone in this thread that has said it wasn't at least debatable are Cavs/LeBron homers. Most of the non-biased fans have said it's one or the other and it's very close.

[Dave3]

I'm biased in favor of Durant. Virtually everyone in this thread that has said it wasn't at least debatable are Cavs/LeBron homers. Most of the non-biased fans have said it's one or the other and it's very close.
I'm not disagreeing with anything you're saying now. My post was addressing your original post though and you haven't really given a rebuttal for anything I've said. You changed the subject to who my favourite of the two players is.

[joyner82]

I'm not disagreeing with anything you're saying now. My post was addressing your original post though and you haven't really given a rebuttal for anything I've said. You changed the subject to who my favourite of the two players is.

Actually I just ignored your post because I'm sure it said

LeBron scored more points and had more assists with a worse supporting cast. Also per 36 is garbage. Which I would respond to,did you actually read anything in my OP? Also per 36 changes nothing other than LeBron scoring 1.5 more ppg on 3 more FGA than Durant. Also look at Roland Ratings, +/-, etc to compare the teams. The point is moot. I believe Durant is better. You believe LeBron is better. Nothing is going to change. It's definitely close though and to dismiss it as a slam dunk for LeBron being head and shoulders above Durant at 21 is foolish. Same for me to do this with Durant.

[Dave3]

Actually I just ignored your post because I'm sure it said

LeBron scored more points and had more assists with a worse supporting cast. Also per 36 is garbage. Which I would respond to,did you actually read anything in my OP? Also per 36 changes nothing other than LeBron scoring 1.5 more ppg on 3 more FGA than Durant. Also look at Roland Ratings, +/-, etc to compare the teams. The point is moot. I believe Durant is better. You believe LeBron is better. Nothing is going to change. It's definitely close though and to dismiss it as a slam dunk for LeBron being head and shoulders above Durant at 21 is foolish. Same for me to do this with Durant.
Yeah, the post was saying that your presentation of stats in the OP was biased against LeBron's, so it's not a fair comparison. My point was it wasn't a good post to base the argument on.

[joyner82]

Yeah, the post was saying that your presentation of stats in the OP was biased against LeBron's, so it's not a fair comparison. My point was it wasn't a good post to base the argument on.

I'm not really sure how it was biased against LeBron..You can talk about me breaking up stats like DRB, ORB, 3P%, FT%, and offensive/defensive ratings..but it was kind of necessary imo. It definitely wasn't in favor of LeBron but i'm not really sure the actual numbers displayed any bias. There normal numbers and not per 36 would have made it closer in some area's but it wouldn't be a consequential difference.

[Dizzle-2k7]

based on what you've provided.. at 21 ... durant> lebron

[Dave3]

I'm not really sure how it was biased against LeBron..You can talk about me breaking up stats like DRB, ORB, 3P%, FT%, and offensive/defensive ratings..but it was kind of necessary imo. It definitely wasn't in favor of LeBron but i'm not really sure the actual numbers displayed any bias. There normal numbers and not per 36 would have made it closer in some area's but it wouldn't be a consequential difference.
But it would have made a difference nonetheless. Whatever, I explained everything for you in the original post and I won't go through it again, but LeBron is definitely superior statistically to Durant.

[DukeDelonte13]

they are indeed close, but I wouldn't call Durant superior. Durant may be a better jump shooter, but passing is a crucial element in any player's offensive repertoire, and Lebron is leaps and bounds ahead of Durant in that facet despite playing on a team with no consistent offensive weapons besides himself.

[joyner82]

But it would have made a difference nonetheless. Whatever, I explained everything for you in the original post and I won't go through it again, but LeBron is definitely superior statistically to Durant.


Durant is a better scorer, defender, and rebounder

I guess you could say LeBron had better stats, but you can't say LeBron was the better player.

[Dave3]

Durant is a better scorer, defender, and rebounder

I guess you could say LeBron had better stats, but you can't say LeBron was the better player.
He is the better player. Percentage points in scoring efficiency doesn't make Durant significantly better in scoring, making it very close. LeBron has always had excellent off the ball defense to make up for the advantage Durant has in on ball defense, and rebounding is a wash, considering the difference is like 0.3 per game or something. LeBron has however significant advantages in playmaking and passing which put him over the top.

[che guevara]

Durant is a better scorer, defender, and rebounder

I guess you could say LeBron had better stats, but you can't say LeBron was the better player.
All of those advantages are tiny at best, but Lebron's playmaking/passing advantage is enormous.

[joyner82]

He is the better player. Percentage points in scoring efficiency doesn't make Durant significantly better in scoring, making it very close. LeBron has always had excellent off the ball defense to make up for the advantage Durant has in on ball defense, and rebounding is a wash, considering the difference is like 0.3 per game or something. LeBron has however significant advantages in playmaking and passing which put him over the top.

The scoring is not even close

56 TS% vs 60 TS% is not even in the same atmosphere. That's like comparing current LeBron vs 2006 LeBron and saying their scoring is a wash.

Also Durant has a direct effect on OKC's playmaking which is demonstrated by +/- AST%. And 3.5 assists per game isn't that drastic of a differential.

[joyner82]

All of those advantages are tiny at best, but Lebron's playmaking/passing advantage is enormous.

Durant is a FAR better scorer and a much better defender as well. The scoring efficiency is about the same difference as the playmaking ability of the 2.

[Dave3]

The scoring is not even close

56 TS% vs 60 TS% is not even in the same atmosphere. That's like comparing current LeBron vs 2006 LeBron and saying their scoring is a wash.

Also Durant has a direct effect on OKC's playmaking which is demonstrated by +/- AST%. And 3.5 assists per game isn't that drastic of a differential.
It's definitely close. Saying the scoring is not even close is pretty stupid. LeBron is very similar to the scorer he was 4 years ago except for the fact that he added a jumpshot and improved his finishing ability slightly. Considering that LeBron's volume is higher as well, it makes the comparison very close. Unless you're implying that LeBron now is a better scorer than Kobe and it's not even close...which is just ludicrous.

[joyner82]

It's definitely close. Saying the scoring is not even close is pretty stupid. LeBron is very similar to the scorer he was 4 years ago except for the fact that he added a jumpshot and improved his finishing ability slightly. Considering that LeBron's volume is higher as well, it makes the comparison very close. Unless you're implying that LeBron now is a better scorer than Kobe and it's not even close...which is just ludicrous.


60.2 TS% vs 56.1 TS%
1.47 PPS vs 1.36 PPS

Neither of those are even close

That's comparing Melo to LeBron/Durant right now in terms of scoring efficiency. Which is a joke.

Melo takes 2 more shots and scores 1 less point than they do.

[Dave3]

60.2 TS% vs 56.1 TS%
1.47 PPS vs 1.36 PPS

Neither of those are even close

That's comparing Melo to LeBron/Durant right now in terms of scoring efficiency. Which is a joke.

Melo takes 2 more shots and scores 1 less points than they do.
That is close. Again, that's like saying that LeBron is a much better scorer than Kobe in 2006 and it's not even close because Kobe's TS% was about 56% too...

[PleezeBelieve]

This dude is jrong on steroids. He'll go away in the playoffs...book it.

[joyner82]

That is close. Again, that's like saying that LeBron is a much better scorer than Kobe in 2006 and it's not even close because Kobe's TS% was about 56% too...

LeBron is a better scorer. Kobe just chucked more.

[joyner82]

This dude is jrong on steroids. He'll go away in the playoffs...book it.

If you're a LeBron fan, if the past indicates anything you'll be going away in the playoffs as well.

[PleezeBelieve]

And the fact anyone entertains this guy is baffling. Hrs saying Durant is better than LeBron James at the same age of 21 based on TS%.

:roll:

[Dave3]

LeBron is a better scorer. Kobe just chucked more.
Kobe's TS% was 55.9% that year. So technically according to you LeBron was a better scorer than Kobe that year and is now a better scorer "and it's not even close" according to you.

And oh, according to you, LeBron is also now a better scorer than 37 ppg Jordan "and it's not even close"

[PleezeBelieve]

One more thing and I'm done here:

LeBron James has been the best player to have ever lived at his relative age each of his 7 seasons in the NBA.
Fact.

LeBron has consistently outplaying the supposed 'best' players in the league since the age of 20. Durant is 0-6 in head-to-head matchups against LeBron and been thoroughly outplayed by LeBron in each one of those contests.

But thank god for TS%.

[joyner82]

And the fact anyone entertains this guy is baffling. Hrs saying Durant is better than LeBron James at the same age of 21 based on TS%.

:roll:

You LeBron tots are ridiculous

Here is what I said


PPG
LeBron-26.5
Durant-27.1
Advantange-Durant

FGA
LeBron-19.5
Durant-18.5
Advantage-Durant

FG%
LeBron-48%
Durant-47.6%
Advantage-LeBron

3P%
LeBron-33.5%
Durant-36.4%
Advantage-Durant

FT%
LeBron-73.8%
Durant-89.1%
Advantage-Durant

TS%
LeBron-56.8%
Durant-60.2%
Advantage-Durant

USG%
LeBron-33.6%
Durant-31.9%
Advantage-Durant

ORB
LeBron-.8
Durant-1.1
Advantage-Durant

DRB
LeBron-5.2
Durant-5.8
Advantage-Durant

AST
LeBron-5.6
Durant-2.5
Advantage-LeBron

TO
LeBron-2.8
Durant-3.1
Advantage LeBron

Offenseive Rating
LeBron-115 PP100P
Durant-116 PP100P
Advantage-Durant

BLK
LeBron-.7
Durant-.8
Advantage-Durant

STL
LeBron-1.3
Durant-1.2
Advantage-LeBron

Defensive Rating
LeBron-104 PP100P
Durant-102 PP100P
Advantage-Durant

Win Shares
LeBron-16.3
Durant-16.7
Advantage-Durant

PER
LeBron-28.1
Durant-26.7
Advantage-LeBron

Team Record
LeBron 50-32
Durant 52-30
Advantage-Durant

+/-
LeBron +242
Durant +462
Advantage-Durant

Adjusted +/-
LeBron +361
Durant +622
Advantage-Durant

On/Off
LeBron +10.1
Durant +17.4
Advantage-Durant

[joyner82]

One more thing and I'm done here:

LeBron James has been the best player to have ever lived at his relative age each of his 7 seasons in the NBA.
Fact.

LeBron has consistently outplaying the supposed 'best' players in the league since the age of 20. Durant is 0-6 in head-to-head matchups against LeBron and been thoroughly outplayed by LeBron in each one of those contests.

But thank god for TS%.



ROFLMFAO @ THE BEST PLAYER AT EVERY AGE

He's never been the best player at any age

19-Moses Malone
20-Magic Johnson
21-Shaquille O'Neal
22-Shaquille O'Neal
23-Kareem Abdul Jabbar
24-Kareem Abdul Jabbar
25-Wilt Chamberlain

LOL @ the garbage you're spewing

[MakeHistory78]

ROFLMFAO @ THE BEST PLAYER AT EVERY AGE

He's never been the best player at any age

19-Moses Malone
20-Magic Johnson
21-Shaquille O'Neal
22-Shaquille O'Neal
23-Kareem Abdul Jabbar
24-Kareem Abdul Jabbar
25-Wilt Chamberlain

LOL @ the garbage you're spewing

19-agree
20-agree
21-LeBron
22-Russell
23-agree
24-MJ
25-MJ(won MVP and DOY that year)

LeBron>Durant at 21 and it's not close.
LeBron is the best player I've ever seen since 1998.

[joyner82]

19-agree
20-agree
21-LeBron
22-Russell
23-agree
24-MJ
25-MJ(won MVP and DOY that year)


Shaq averaged 29.3 and 11.4 on 60% shooting

LeBron @ 31/7/7 on 23 shots was not better

24 Kareem averaged 35, 17, and 5 on 58% shooting at 24 and he won the MVP
25 Wilt averaged 50 and 27. Ya ok

[lilgodfather1]

19-agree
20-agree
21-LeBron
22-Russell
23-agree
24-MJ
25-MJ(won MVP and DOY that year)

LeBron>Durant at 21 and it's not close.
LeBron is the best player I've ever seen since 1998.
I agree with MJ at 24 and 25. Lebron at 18 by far, I don't think any other HS play has came in and been that good, 19 IMO is LeBron to.

[MakeHistory78]

Shaq averaged 29.3 and 11.4 on 60% shooting

LeBron @ 31/7/7 on 23 shots was not better

24 Kareem averaged 35, 17, and 5 on 58% shooting at 24 and he won the MVP
25 Wilt averaged 50 and 27. Ya ok
Yes but LeBron had very good games in the playoffs at his 21 also.He was better than Shaq!
He(LeBron) is the GOAT 21 years player ever.I'm a big MJ fan but I accept that.

25 MJ>25 Wilt.MJ won the DOY and the MVP and that's more important than 50 and 27 because they are trophies.

[joyner82]

Yes but LeBron had very good games in the playoffs at his 21 also.He was better than Shaq!
He(LeBron) is the GOAT 21 years player ever.I'm a big MJ fan but I accept that.

25 MJ>25 Wilt.MJ won the DOY and the MVP and that's more important than 50 and 27 because they are trophies.

NVM I just looked at your avatar. I now realize you're a MJ fan who transitioned into a LeBron fan. my apologies

[MakeHistory78]

NVM I just looked at your avatar. I know realize you're a MJ fan who transitioned into a LeBron fan. my apologies
I'am big Jordan fan and he is the GOAT.But I accept that LeBron is a very special player.So simple.He is the only in today's game who has a chance to be in the GOAT debate with MJ
Durant is a very good player but it's not in LeBron class.
Try to give Durant more credit than LeBron it's stupidity.
You are a Durant fan,a Kobe fan?Whatever you are LeBron is the best in the planet and he is the best I've ever seen since 1998..So simple.

[zabuza666]

It's not even the stats, it's the team record as well...I don't see how someone could argue that Durant isn't superior or that it isn't at least extremely close.

Durant's team is better then Lebron's when he was 21

[joyner82]

I'am big Jordan fan and he is the GOAT.But I accept that LeBron is a very special player.So simple.He is the only in today's game who has a chance to be in the GOAT debate with MJ
Durant is a very good player but it's not in LeBron class.
Try to give Durant more credit than LeBron it's stupidity.
You are a Durant fan,a Kobe fan?Whatever you are LeBron is the best in the planet and he is the best I've ever seen since 1998..So simple.

Just wondering, LeBron at 22 averaged 27.3, 6.6, and 6.0 on 47.6% shooting and had a TS% of 55.2% and a PER of 24.5


Given Durant's trend since entering the league

Rookie-20.3 ppg 4.4 rpg 51.9 TS% 15.8 PER
2nd season-25.3 ppg 6.5 rpg 57.7 TS% 20.8 PER
3rd season-29.8 ppg 7.5 rpg 60.2 TS% 25.55 PER

What would it take for Durant at 22 to surpass LeBron at 22?

If he averaged say 32 ppg, 8.4 rpg, 3.8 asp 61 TS% 27 PER, would you consider that better than LeBron at 22?

[joyner82]

Durant's team is better then Lebron's when he was 21

Let's leave out Durant/LeBron

Westbrook>Snow
Krstic<Big Z
Green=Gooden
Sefalosha<Hughes

Collison<Varejao
Harden=Marshall

Maybe I just don't see this huge difference. Westbrook is much better than Snow obviously, but Z and Hughes were VASTLY better than Sefalosha/Krstic as well.

[MakeHistory78]

Just wondering, LeBron at 22 averaged 27.3, 6.6, and 6.0 on 47.6% shooting and had a TS% of 55.2% and a PER of 24.5


Given Durant's trend since entering the league

Rookie-20.3 ppg 4.4 rpg 51.9 TS% 15.8 PER
2nd season-25.3 ppg 6.5 rpg 57.7 TS% 20.8 PER
3rd season-29.8 ppg 7.5 rpg 60.2 TS% 25.55 PER

What would it take for Durant at 22 to surpass LeBron at 22?

If he averaged say 32 ppg, 8.4 rpg, 3.8 asp 61 TS% 27 PER, would you consider that better than LeBron at 22?
No I don't consider him better at his 22 than LBJ if he averaged 32 ppg, 8.4 rpg, 3.8 asp 61 TS% 27 PER,and you know why?
Because LBJ at his 22 took his team to the Finals.Because LeBron had a legendary 48 point-performance one of the greatest individual performances in the History of the NBA.
LeBron 2006-2007 hadn't so good numbers as 2005-2006 but at the end of the year in his 22 played in the NBA Finals...
It's not only about the numbers..
And if is about the numbers like you think then LeBron>Durant.
I understand you don't like LeBron but you must understand that he is a much better player than KD.So simple...
I've seen KAJ,Magic,Bird and MJ.LeBron is so special like these legends..Durant isn't so special.

[joyner82]

No I don't consider him better at his 22 than LBJ if he averaged 32 ppg, 8.4 rpg, 3.8 asp 61 TS% 27 PER,and you know why?
Because LBJ at his 22 took his team to the Finals.Because LeBron had a legendary 48 point-performance one of the greatest individual performances in the History of the NBA.
LeBron 2006-2007 hadn't so good numbers as 2005-2006 but at the end of the year in his 22 played in the NBA Finals...
It's not only about the numbers..
And if is about the numbers like you think then LeBron>Durant.
I understand you don't like LeBron but you must understand that he is a much better player than KD.So simple...
I've seen KAJ,Magic,Bird and MJ.LeBron is so special like these legends..Durant isn't so special.


Cool, so Kobe>LeBron last year right? Afterall he took his team to the Finals and won a championship.


Also please elaborate as to how Durant isn't special. And just curious, how many games have you actually watched Durant play this year?

[MakeHistory78]

Cool, so Kobe>LeBron last year right? Afterall he took his team to the Finals and won a championship.


Also please elaborate as to how Durant isn't special.
LeBron won the MVP last year don't forget that.And had fantastic playoffs!
Will Durant win the MVP next year?I don't think so.But let's see.
Kobe took the championship but Lebron won the MVP...They both did good job.

Durant isn't so special,sorry.Isn't so special like the top legends.LeBron is up there as a talent.

I watched Durant when he was at Texas in college..He isn't so special like Lebron is.He will be a great scorer like Gervin,Dominique and that's all.

[joyner82]

LeBron won the MVP last year don't forget that.And had fantastic playoffs!
Will Durant win the MVP next year?I don't think so.But let's see.
Kobe took the championship but Lebron won the MVP...They both did good job.

Durant isn't so special,sorry.Isn't so special like the top legends.LeBron is up there as a talent.

Yet Durant is the most efficient scorer in NBA history in year 3

[MakeHistory78]

Yet Durant is the most efficient scorer in NBA history in year 3
This is something that doesn't make him better than LeBron at his 21(LeBron IMO 21 yrs.old GOAT)..
LeBron 48%>Durant 47.7%
LeBron 7.0 rebound<Durant 7.5 rebound
LeBron 6.6 assist>Durant 2.8 assist
LeBron 31.4 ppg>Durant 29.7 ppg

Give me LeBron 21 by far than KD 21.It's a stupid comparison my friend..Sorry.
He isn't so special as I said before.

[DaSkeelz]

where di u get that chart/graphic?

[Figlo]

LeBron was a better defender, plus he was a much better playmaker.

[joyner82]

where di u get that chart/graphic?

82 games

[joyner82]

LeBron was a better defender, plus he was a much better playmaker.

better defender. really? Durant has a much better defensive rating and the player he guards PER is much lower than what lebron allowed in 06.

[joyner82]

This is something that doesn't make him better than LeBron at his 21(LeBron IMO 21 yrs.old GOAT)..
LeBron 48%>Durant 47.7%
LeBron 7.0 rebound<Durant 7.5 rebound
LeBron 6.6 assist>Durant 2.8 assist
LeBron 31.4 ppg>Durant 29.7 ppg

Give me LeBron 21 by far than KD 21.It's a stupid comparison my friend..Sorry.
He isn't so special as I said before.




31.4 ppg on 23.1 fga is 1.36 PPS
29.7 ppg on 20.3 fga is 1.47 PPS(#1 all time for 3rd year players, 25+ ppg min.)

Durant had a TS% of 60.2%(one of 3 players in history to average 27+ ppg w/ TS% of 60%+ in one of their first 3 years; Others were Shaq and Kareem)

LeBron had a TS% of 56.1%

[MakeHistory78]

31.4 ppg on 23.1 fga is 1.36 PPS
29.7 ppg on 20.3 fga is 1.47 PPS(#1 all time for 3rd year players, 25+ ppg min.)

Durant had a TS% of 60.2%(one of 3 players in history to average 27+ ppg w/ TS% of 60%+ in one of their first 3 years; Others were Shaq and Kareem)

LeBron had a TS% of 56.1%


You find PPS TS % to prove that Durant is better?My friend I understand that you are a Durant fan and trying find reasons but LeBron was better at 21 than Durant is and it's not close.

Using PPS TS to prove that is a joke...I'm sorry!

[Lebron23]

LeBron's NBA Playoffs debut.

32 points, 11 assists and 11 rebounds.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[Lebron23]

LeBron >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Durant.

[U got Served]

ROFL! Owned

[airchibundo507]

Melo > Durant

[ChrisConley]

I think that he made a decent argument based on the stats. It is hard to argue that LeBron was superior at 21. However, LeBron improved vastly since then. I don't see Durant improving much more unless he bulks up and learns to pass more. Also, Durant's rebounding numbers are a little inflated due to lack of a solid big man.

[CeoTypeDoe619]

LeBron's NBA Playoffs debut.

32 points, 11 assists and 11 rebounds.

:applause: :applause: :applause:
I dont think Lbj went against the defensive stopper Artest. But i could be wrong

[Dave3]

I think that he made a decent argument based on the stats. It is hard to argue that LeBron was superior at 21. However, LeBron improved vastly since then. I don't see Durant improving much more unless he bulks up and learns to pass more. Also, Durant's rebounding numbers are a little inflated due to lack of a solid big man.
He didn't make a good argument. He just manipulated stats as much as possible to favour Durant. If you actually look at what he typed critically, it's a poor argument.

[asdf1990]

I dont think Lbj went against the defensive stopper Artest. But i could be wrong

but this is durant we are talking about he is the goat scorer according to ts, how can any1 stop this beast?

[LA_Showtime]

Okay, comparing LeBron's playoff debut to Durant's is just stupid. Durant is playing the defending champions, and he's being guarded by heavy doses of Ron Artest. LeBron James was playing against the Washington Wizards... need I say more?

[nbastatus]

Comparing Durant and Melo is debatable, but Lebron? :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[NuggetsFan]

Comparing Durant and Melo is debatable, but Lebron? :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

:applause:

[branslowski]

I dont think Lbj went against the defensive stopper Artest. But i could be wrong

1 guy played against Ron Artest and two 7 Footers in the middle....And the other played against a sh!tty Washington Wizards Defense...Just sayin.

[Wuxia]

Man, some of those numbers are redundant as they represent the same damm thing. TS%, PPS, EFG%, are you kidding me? Durant is a better free throw shooter. You get a cookie, congrats. If you watch the game you can clearly see who impacts the game more and who the better player is/was and that is Lebron.

[G.O.A.T.]

Here is how it projects to be after this season per 36(if you want for their average minutes I can post these too. It changes nothing)


PPG
LeBron-26.5
Durant-27.1
Advantange-Durant

FGA
LeBron-19.5
Durant-18.5
Advantage-Durant

FG%
LeBron-48%
Durant-47.6%
Advantage-LeBron

3P%
LeBron-33.5%
Durant-36.4%
Advantage-Durant

FT%
LeBron-73.8%
Durant-89.1%
Advantage-Durant

TS%
LeBron-56.8%
Durant-60.2%
Advantage-Durant

USG%
LeBron-33.6%
Durant-31.9%
Advantage-Durant

ORB
LeBron-.8
Durant-1.1
Advantage-Durant

DRB
LeBron-5.2
Durant-5.8
Advantage-Durant

AST
LeBron-5.6
Durant-2.5
Advantage-LeBron

TO
LeBron-2.8
Durant-3.1
Advantage LeBron

Offenseive Rating
LeBron-115 PP100P
Durant-116 PP100P
Advantage-Durant

BLK
LeBron-.7
Durant-.8
Advantage-Durant

STL
LeBron-1.3
Durant-1.2
Advantage-LeBron

Defensive Rating
LeBron-104 PP100P
Durant-102 PP100P
Advantage-Durant

Win Shares
LeBron-16.3
Durant-16.7
Advantage-Durant

PER
LeBron-28.1
Durant-26.7
Advantage-LeBron

Team Record
LeBron 50-32
Durant 52-30
Advantage-Durant

+/-
LeBron +242
Durant +462
Advantage-Durant

Adjusted +/-
LeBron +361
Durant +622
Advantage-Durant

On/Off
LeBron +10.1
Durant +17.4
Advantage-Durant


Here is a chart with a direct comparison of the these stats of their individual teams when the player is On/Off the court. Durant dominates virtually every area. (Note Points scored, Points allowed, and Net points aren't based on 82 games for Durant but rather current)

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/2350/lebrondurant.jpg

So please explain to me, how was LeBron better than Durant at 21? Durant destroys him across the board and if anything LeBron can't even compare to Durant.
:lol :lol

[Duncan21formvp]

Here is how it projects to be after this season per 36(if you want for their average minutes I can post these too. It changes nothing)


PPG
LeBron-26.5
Durant-27.1
Advantange-Durant

FGA
LeBron-19.5
Durant-18.5
Advantage-Durant

FG%
LeBron-48%
Durant-47.6%
Advantage-LeBron

3P%
LeBron-33.5%
Durant-36.4%
Advantage-Durant

FT%
LeBron-73.8%
Durant-89.1%
Advantage-Durant

TS%
LeBron-56.8%
Durant-60.2%
Advantage-Durant

USG%
LeBron-33.6%
Durant-31.9%
Advantage-Durant

ORB
LeBron-.8
Durant-1.1
Advantage-Durant

DRB
LeBron-5.2
Durant-5.8
Advantage-Durant

AST
LeBron-5.6
Durant-2.5
Advantage-LeBron

TO
LeBron-2.8
Durant-3.1
Advantage LeBron

Offenseive Rating
LeBron-115 PP100P
Durant-116 PP100P
Advantage-Durant

BLK
LeBron-.7
Durant-.8
Advantage-Durant

STL
LeBron-1.3
Durant-1.2
Advantage-LeBron

Defensive Rating
LeBron-104 PP100P
Durant-102 PP100P
Advantage-Durant

Win Shares
LeBron-16.3
Durant-16.7
Advantage-Durant

PER
LeBron-28.1
Durant-26.7
Advantage-LeBron

Team Record
LeBron 50-32
Durant 52-30
Advantage-Durant

+/-
LeBron +242
Durant +462
Advantage-Durant

Adjusted +/-
LeBron +361
Durant +622
Advantage-Durant

On/Off
LeBron +10.1
Durant +17.4
Advantage-Durant


Here is a chart with a direct comparison of the these stats of their individual teams when the player is On/Off the court. Durant dominates virtually every area. (Note Points scored, Points allowed, and Net points aren't based on 82 games for Durant but rather current)

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/2350/lebrondurant.jpg

So please explain to me, how was LeBron better than Durant at 21? Durant destroys him across the board and if anything LeBron can't even compare to Durant.

Durant was better.

[G.O.A.T]

Thank goodness for eyeballs.

It was easy to see how much Lebron would improve, Durant is near his peak.

[chris02jammers]

Durant is also currently in 2nd place for MVP voting. Lebron having a weak team evens out to the weaker conference he was in
DH12 is the 2nd in voting...

[chris02jammers]

LeBron was 2nd in MVP voting in the 2005-06 NBA Season. He should have been the youngest MVP in History. The Cleveland Cavaliers won 50 games for the first time since the 1993 NBA Season. They were also 20-10 against the Western Conference Teams. LeBron's 2nd scoring option Mr. Larry Hughes missed 46 games in the Regular Season.

LeBron averaged 31 on 48 FG% ppg, 8 rpg, 6 apg in the 2006 NBA Playoffs.

well said, OP is obviously a Durant troll,
Durant got, scorers Westbrook, Jeff Green, Defenders like Maynor, Sefalosha
and got 2 more wins? your a troll thread fail moron :violin:

[Durant=GOAT]

well said, OP is obviously a Durant troll,
Durant got, scorers Westbrook, Jeff Green, Defenders like Maynor, Sefalosha
and got 2 more wins? your a troll thread fail moron :violin:
He didn't get his team to more wins their record is the same.

[Bandito]

I think Lebron is better than Durant because he didn't have a Westbrook type player on his team.

[Durant=GOAT]

I think Lebron is better than Durant because he didn't have a Westbrook type player on his team.
The only player positionally that was better was big Z IMO. I think Green is better than Drew, obviously pretty arguable though. The Thunders depth is also better.

[chris02jammers]

The only player positionally that was better was big Z IMO. I think Green is better than Drew, obviously pretty arguable though. The Thunders depth is also better.
well said, and I like KD...

[QUIZZLE]

Someone must have a lot of friends looking up all those stats

[theguru]

If the stats are everything....

Lebron was putting up over 31/7/6 on 48% shooting. Durant doesnt have better numbers as it is. If you are gonna go down a list and modify stats to be what they would be if reality were different(Lebron did not play 36 minutes a game nor does Durant) and then act as if it is a failing to be shooting more or have a high usage rate(Jordans is the highest of all time) and call it a statistical advantage fine. But lets not act like they are stats that reflect how well you play basketball. Really...usage rate? Its hurting a team for Lebron to have the ball more or something? Of course not. But it suggests he has...what...more chances to produce stats? Perhaps he has it because of a positive...like say....being his teams best playmaker and player by such a wide margin they lean on him more?

A list of adjusted plus/minus the last few years had Amir Johnson over Kobe. But I care about it now? Peja led the league in Win Shares once. Andris Biedrins, Brad Miller, and Brian Cardinal led the league in offensive rating. Michael Jordan never did.

Why do I need to care about these things? I dont see it. Not to the extent I pretend that Lebron wasnt scoring more while being a better playmaker by a miles and a somewhat better defender.

Hes is better at the only thing I can ever see him being better at. Shooting jumpers. Not playing basketball.
:applause:

[ILLsmak]

Thank goodness for eyeballs.

It was easy to see how much Lebron would improve, Durant is near his peak.

I wouldn't go that far. That's the myth of skill vs athleticism. Bron could improve skill and Durant probably can't improve athleticism, but he can definitely get better at what he does.

I think this kid is obsessed with proving KD is better than LeBron... which to me is pretty much absurd. I think that all fans of teams other than the Cavs or people that generally hate LeBron are very interested in KD's development because he's the only person that can come close to Bron.

But why not just be happy that he's the 2nd best? Bron is, IMO, a GOAT candidate already, and is just going to cement his resume. Why can't you guys be happy that KD is probably going to be 2nd best for years to come?

-Smak

[Dave3]

I wouldn't go that far. That's the myth of skill vs athleticism. Bron could improve skill and Durant probably can't improve athleticism, but he can definitely get better at what he does.

I think this kid is obsessed with proving KD is better than LeBron... which to me is pretty much absurd. I think that all fans of teams other than the Cavs or people that generally hate LeBron are very interested in KD's development because he's the only person that can come close to Bron.

But why not just be happy that he's the 2nd best? Bron is, IMO, a GOAT candidate already, and is just going to cement his resume. Why can't you guys be happy that KD is probably going to be 2nd best for years to come?

-Smak
There's nothing worse than being 2nd best. When you're 5th or 6th best, you're in the top 5 or you're in the top 10, so you're satisfied. You're satisfied because you're happy with where you are. When you're 2nd, you're too close to first to be satisfied - there's only one position between you and being numero uno. That's why being 2nd is so annoying. It's the most frustrating position to be in at anything. That's why the arguments for being number one are so heated.

At least that's my opinion of what goes on within the subconscious. Think about it, what's a more annoying mark, 99% or 90%? If you get a 90%, you feel like you did well and you're satisfied. When you get a 99% the first thing you do is look for your mistake - the sole reason you were away from perfection.

Actually, come to think of it, this is something I read about in psychology last semester. The closer you are to a goal without achieving it, the more frustrating it is. Yeah, I'm pretty sure now it was in my psych text. That's why second sucks I guess. It's too close to first.

[ILLsmak]

There's nothing worse than being 2nd best. When you're 5th or 6th best, you're in the top 5 or you're in the top 10, so you're satisfied. You're satisfied because you're happy with where you are. When you're 2nd, you're too close to first to be satisfied - there's only one position between you and being numero uno. That's why being 2nd is so annoying. It's the most frustrating position to be in at anything. That's why the arguments for being number one are so heated.

At least that's my opinion of what goes on within the subconscious. Think about it, what's a more annoying mark, 99% or 90%? If you get a 90%, you feel like you did well and you're satisfied. When you get a 99% the first thing you do is look for your mistake - the sole reason you were away from perfection.

Actually, come to think of it, this is something I read about in psychology last semester. The closer you are to a goal without achieving it, the more frustrating it is. Yeah, I'm pretty sure now it was in my psych text. That's why second sucks I guess. It's too close to first.

But it's not always the same.

It's not like who is the 2nd best SG during MJ's prime. This is more like Magic/Larry.

KD could conceivably be better than LeBron for a season, but in terms of career, how can you compare yourself with Bron? It's like Dwight comparing himself to Shaq.

90/99% isn't a good example because a perfect score is something YOU did, it has nothing to do with anyone else. Durant might be able to achieve 100% Durant, it just wouldn't be 100% LeBron. Maybe not even 90% LeBron.

Yeah, it sucks to compete and not be the best, but he can do things Bron can't do so he's a different piece. He is still unique.

-Smak

[Dave3]

But it's not always the same.

It's not like who is the 2nd best SG during MJ's prime. This is more like Magic/Larry.

KD could conceivably be better than LeBron for a season, but in terms of career, how can you compare yourself with Bron? It's like Dwight comparing himself to Shaq.

90/99% isn't a good example because a perfect score is something YOU did, it has nothing to do with anyone else. Durant might be able to achieve 100% Durant, it just wouldn't be 100% LeBron. Maybe not even 90% LeBron.

Yeah, it sucks to compete and not be the best, but he can do things Bron can't do so he's a different piece. He is still unique.

-Smak
It's not whether it's what you did or what someone else is doing. That's not what the 90/99 thing is an analogy to. The analogy is to being close to perfection/#1. The closer you are to being there without actually being there, the more failing to get there is frustrating.

[Andrei89]

Yes.

[nolebball]

I dont think Lbj went against the defensive stopper Artest. But i could be wrong


Okay, comparing LeBron's playoff debut to Durant's is just stupid. Durant is playing the defending champions, and he's being guarded by heavy doses of Ron Artest. LeBron James was playing against the Washington Wizards... need I say more?


1 guy played against Ron Artest and two 7 Footers in the middle....And the other played against a sh!tty Washington Wizards Defense...Just sayin.

While I do think the debate for who was better at 21 between KD and LBJ is valid, I just want to say that LeBron went up against Caron Butler and Jared Jeffries his first playoff game, who are both very good defenders. So don't underestimate LeBron's performance.

[Diesel J]

I think that all fans of teams other than the Cavs or people that generally hate LeBron are very interested in KD's development because he's the only person that can come close to Bron.



-Smak

Hit the nail right on the head:lol

[Lebron23]

:lol :lol :lol

[6thManOfTheYear]

swap durant for 21 year old lebron, do the thunder win this series? :confusedshrug:

[magnax1]

lol, hell no

[Lebron23]

swap durant for 21 year old lebron, do the thunder win this series? :confusedshrug:


Cavs almost beat the 64 wins Pistons in the 2006 NBA Playoffs. By the way Larry Hughes sucked in the playoffs.

Lakers would still beat the Cavs because they are the more talented team, but LeBron would have better all around numbers than Kevin Durant.


OT:

LeBron > Malone and Stockton at the end of the year.

[6thManOfTheYear]

i think the lakers would still win in 7 but lebron would probably have a better game 1 and game 6

[asdf1990]

lebron made his stamp in the playoffs with that game 5 in detroit. durant will be a regular season player. when the defense gets tough he shoots 25 % lol wat a scoring champ.

[joyner82]

replace 21 year old durant with 25 year old lebron and they still lose that series :lol

[branslowski]

are u ****ing serious bro?

Joyner u are a good poster but with this crap u should get ban

How was that a crap post?....Its truth...LeBron aint beatin Lakers with that Roster...Especially if Kobe is put on Russel Westbrook again (this move won the series btw)

LeBron would just give up and hope to land on Wade's cawk n balls.

[Bladers]

Durant is obviously better..

[magnax1]

Cavs almost beat the 64 wins Pistons in the 2006 NBA Playoffs. By the way Larry Hughes sucked in the playoffs.

Lakers would still beat the Cavs because they are the more talented team, but LeBron would have better all around numbers than Kevin Durant.


OT:

LeBron > Malone and Stockton at the end of the year.
Even more hell no to that. He was about equivelant to Malone, no where near as good as Stockton and Malone combined.

[YaoMingYaoMing]

LeBron by far. This really isn't even a comparison, more points, assists, rebounds on the same shooting on a much worse team.

U crazy?

[Animism]

Barring the unexpected, I see Durant having the better overall career. Possibly less rings due to the Heat trio, but as far as individual impact.
Hes also a MUCH more likable guy...Kinda makes me think of the wing version of Duncan as far as public personality.

[madmax]

Barring the unexpected, I see Durant having the better overall career. Possibly less rings due to the Heat trio, but as far as individual impact.
Hes also a MUCH more likable guy...Kinda makes me think of the wing version of Duncan as far as public personality.
:roll: at the blolded part...Lebron is the best all-arround player in the world and he just posted two mind boggling PER seasons in a row...sure, that Durant kid can score...but what else?

[joyner82]

:roll: at the blolded part...Lebron is the best all-arround player in the world and he just posted two mind boggling PER seasons in a row...sure, that Durant kid can score...but what else?

Uh...I think you might want to look at a legitimate stat like On/Off or Win Shares Per 48. Durant posted far better numbers at 21 than LeBron did at 21 or 22.

[YouCallILose]

just bumping for the @ 22 comparison when 82games updates their stuff

[Lebron23]

just bumping for the @ 22 comparison when 82games updates their stuff

LeBron's numbers went down in the 2007 NBA Season, but he led his team in the NBA Finals.

[Career .557 TS%]

LeBron's numbers went down in the 2007 NBA Season, but luckily for him boobie gibson led the cavs to the NBA Finals.
fixed.

[Javat_90]

fixed.


Awesome nickname.
:roll:

[Lebron23]

fixed.


Jesus Christ

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[YouCallILose]

LeBron's numbers went down in the 2007 NBA Season, but he led his team in the NBA Finals.

and if Kevin Durant gets to play 2 sub 40 win teams and an over the hill 53 win team without its best player I'm sure he will lead his team to the Finals as well

Also Durant's numbers have gone down, but it's by like 1 point which will likely be balanced by the end of the season as his November was very bad. He's been better than last year since December 1.

[Lebron23]

and if Kevin Durant gets to play 2 sub 40 win teams and an over the hill 53 win team without its best player I'm sure he will lead his team to the Finals as well

Also Durant's numbers have gone down, but it's by like 1 point which will likely be balanced by the end of the season as his November was very bad. He's been better than last year since December 1.


Durant hasn't won an NBA playoffs series. Call me when Durant put up an amazing numbers in the playoffs.

[ginobli2311]

people really trying to claim lebron didn't lead his team to the finals in 07?

LOL.

really....its just beyond hate now.

there are people that come to heat threads (hogan and bayless) that literally comment on every missed shot, turnover, or foul call on lebron.

and people call me a hater? jesus.

[YouCallILose]

Durant hasn't won an NBA playoffs series. Call me when Durant put up an amazing numbers in the playoffs.

Durant vs the champs in 2010 25 ppg 8 rpg 4 to/6 20.5 FGA 35 FG% 50 TS%

LeBron vs the champs in 2008-26.5 ppg 7 rpg 6 to/g 22.5 FGA 36 FG% 49 TS%

LeBron vs the champs in 2007-22.5 ppg 8 rpg 6 to/g 24.5 FGA 34 FG% 43 TS% <---more FGA than PPG :lol

[knightfall88]

Problem is, Lebrons game hasn't changed one bit since he was 21.

[Poochymama]

Durant vs the champs in 2010 25 ppg 8 rpg 4 to/6 20.5 FGA 35 FG% 50 TS%

LeBron vs the champs in 2008-26.5 ppg 7 rpg 6 to/g 22.5 FGA 36 FG% 49 TS%

LeBron vs the champs in 2007-22.5 ppg 8 rpg 6 to/g 24.5 FGA 34 FG% 43 TS% <---more FGA than PPG :lol


Why didn't you list assists?

[Lebron23]

Durant vs the champs in 2010 25 ppg 8 rpg 4 to/6 20.5 FGA 35 FG% 50 TS%

LeBron vs the champs in 2008-26.5 ppg 7 rpg 6 to/g 22.5 FGA 36 FG% 49 TS%

LeBron vs the champs in 2007-22.5 ppg 8 rpg 6 to/g 24.5 FGA 34 FG% 43 TS% <---more FGA than PPG :lol


LeBron averaged better numbers againts the Lakers in the Regular season. It sucks that he had a horrible supporting casts in Cleveland, and they couldn't beat the Boston Celtics in the playoffs.

The Celtics are 3-0 againts the Heat this season, but please remember that the Heat are not in full strength.

[RJChPD]

Durant vs the champs in 2010 25 ppg 8 rpg 4 to/6 20.5 FGA 35 FG% 50 TS%

LeBron vs the champs in 2008-26.5 ppg 7 rpg 6 to/g 22.5 FGA 36 FG% 49 TS%

LeBron vs the champs in 2007-22.5 ppg 8 rpg 6 to/g 24.5 FGA 34 FG% 43 TS%

I'm taking Lebron at any age over Durant so far, regardless of numbers. He's just better than Durant at basketball.

[Lebron23]

Why didn't you list assists?


Joyner82 has an agenda

[Hulk Hogan]

Here is how it projects to be after this season per 36(if you want for their average minutes I can post these too. It changes nothing)


PPG
LeBron-26.5
Durant-27.1
Advantange-Durant

FGA
LeBron-19.5
Durant-18.5
Advantage-Durant

FG%
LeBron-48%
Durant-47.6%
Advantage-LeBron

3P%
LeBron-33.5%
Durant-36.4%
Advantage-Durant

FT%
LeBron-73.8%
Durant-89.1%
Advantage-Durant

TS%
LeBron-56.8%
Durant-60.2%
Advantage-Durant

USG%
LeBron-33.6%
Durant-31.9%
Advantage-Durant

ORB
LeBron-.8
Durant-1.1
Advantage-Durant

DRB
LeBron-5.2
Durant-5.8
Advantage-Durant

AST
LeBron-5.6
Durant-2.5
Advantage-LeBron

TO
LeBron-2.8
Durant-3.1
Advantage LeBron

Offenseive Rating
LeBron-115 PP100P
Durant-116 PP100P
Advantage-Durant

BLK
LeBron-.7
Durant-.8
Advantage-Durant

STL
LeBron-1.3
Durant-1.2
Advantage-LeBron

Defensive Rating
LeBron-104 PP100P
Durant-102 PP100P
Advantage-Durant

Win Shares
LeBron-16.3
Durant-16.7
Advantage-Durant

PER
LeBron-28.1
Durant-26.7
Advantage-LeBron

Team Record
LeBron 50-32
Durant 52-30
Advantage-Durant

+/-
LeBron +242
Durant +462
Advantage-Durant

Adjusted +/-
LeBron +361
Durant +622
Advantage-Durant

On/Off
LeBron +10.1
Durant +17.4
Advantage-Durant


Here is a chart with a direct comparison of the these stats of their individual teams when the player is On/Off the court. Durant dominates virtually every area. (Note Points scored, Points allowed, and Net points aren't based on 82 games for Durant but rather current)

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/2350/lebrondurant.jpg

So please explain to me, how was LeBron better than Durant at 21? Durant destroys him across the board and if anything LeBron can't even compare to Durant.

Joyner at his best. :applause: :bowdown:

[YouCallILose]

Why didn't you list assists?

ball dominant player vs off the ball player :confusedshrug:

[YouCallILose]

Joyner82 has an agenda

and LeBron23 clearly does not

[Career .557 TS%]

LeBron averaged better numbers againts the Lakers in the Regular season. It sucks that he had a horrible supporting casts in Cleveland, and they couldn't beat the Boston Celtics in the playoffs.

cavs had a 2-1 lead before lebron quit. :confusedshrug:

[PistonsFan#21]

ball dominant player vs off the ball player :confusedshrug:

so we should also leave out scoring since its a playmaking pointforward vs a scorer :confusedshrug:

[YouCallILose]

so we should also leave out scoring since its a playmaker pointforward vs a scorer :confusedshrug:

lebron was taking more shots per game :confusedshrug:

[Lebron23]

and LeBron23 clearly does not


Good All around Player and a Good Defender >>> Durant

[Batz]

Good All around Player and a Good Defender >>> Durant
wtf

[TheGreatBlaze]

Give me Lebron. Durant played poorly in his first playoff appearance, meanwhile Lebron lead the Cavs to the 2nd round and nearly upset the 64-18 Pistons with a worse supporting cast than Durant.

[Lebron23]

wtf

NBA Coaches >>>>>>>>> ISH Posters. LeBron was 2x member of the All NBA Defensive Team.

[YouCallILose]

NBA Coaches >>>>>>>>> ISH Posters. LeBron was 2x member of the All NBA Defensive Team.

LeBron was a horrible defender at 21 you clown and he was nowhere near all NBA defensive team

[Lebron23]

LeBron was a horrible defender at 21 you clown and he was nowhere near all NBA defensive team


He was still a much better defender than Durant.

[YouCallILose]

He was still a much better defender than Durant.

learn to read
go to page 1
read page 1

do it now before i link jordan crawford giving lebron a facial

[ThickassGlasses]

Westbrook >>> Anyone LeBron ever had with the Cavs


And lmao at Durant > LeBron defensively.
Stats don't tell a whole story, esp when your on an agenda

[Lebron23]

Westbrook >>> Anyone LeBron ever had with the Cavs


And lmao at Durant > LeBron defensively.
Stats don't tell a whole story, esp when your on an agenda


Westbrook was the Thunder's best player in the 2010 NBA playoffs.

[sh0wtime]

Not a super gap, but Lebron was better, he was also already at that time being much more versatile playing 4 positions offensivel/defensively, was a better defender, being more clutch, better all-round player, better leader, he did more of that stuff which didnt show up on the statsheet.
And he did it with a much lesser team...

[YouCallILose]

Westbrook was the Thunder's best player in the 2010 NBA playoffs.

Boobie Gibson was the Cavaliers best player in the 2007 NBA playoffs.

Hell Dwayne Wade is the best player on the 2011 Miami Heat period :lol

[Lebron23]

Boobie Gibson was the Cavaliers best player in the 2007 NBA playoffs.

Hell Dwayne Wade is the best player on the 2011 Miami Heat period :lol


http://ultimatedroid.com/u-mad1.jpg

But seriously a 21 LeBron was a superior player than a 21 yrs.old Kevin Durant. LeBron averaged 31.4 ppg, 7 rpg, and 7 apg. The Cavaliers were 20-10 againts the Western Conference Teams.

He also had an amazing NBA Playoffs debut.

[BallsOut]

Not a super gap, but Lebron was better, he was also already at that time being much more versatile playing 4 positions offensivel/defensively, was a better defender, being more clutch, better all-round player, better leader, he did more of that stuff which didnt show up on the statsheet.
And he did it with a much lesser team...

I didn't know Lebron could shoot. That makes it 3 positions. Fix it yourself. Durant can also play 3 positions.

[YouCallILose]

http://ultimatedroid.com/u-mad1.jpg

But seriously a 21 LeBron was a superior player than a 21 yrs.old Kevin Durant. LeBron averaged 31.4 ppg, 7 rpg, and 7 apg. The Cavaliers were 20-10 againts the Western Conference Teams.

But seriously a 21 Durant was a superior player than a 21 yrs. old LeBron James. Durant averaged 30/8/3 while having the ball about 1/5 the time LeBron does. He only needed 20 shots to average 30 ppg while lebron needed 23 shots to average 31 ppg. The Thunder were 22-8 against the Eastern Conference Teams

[Disaprine]

wtf
:lol

[Lebron23]

But seriously a 21 Durant was a superior player than a 21 yrs. old LeBron James. Durant averaged 30/8/3 while having the ball about 1/5 the time LeBron does. He only needed 20 shots to average 30 ppg while lebron needed 23 shots to average 31 ppg. The Thunder were 22-8 against the Eastern Conference Teams


How about the playoffs stats?

30.8 ppg, 8.1 rpg, 5.8 apg, 1.4 spg, 0.7 bpg, 47.6 FG%.

[Lebron23]

Not a super gap, but Lebron was better, he was also already at that time being much more versatile playing 4 positions offensivel/defensively, was a better defender, being more clutch, better all-round player, better leader, he did more of that stuff which didnt show up on the statsheet.
And he did it with a much lesser team...


:applause: :applause: :applause:

[YouCallILose]

How about the playoffs stats?

30.8 ppg, 8.1 rpg, 5.8 apg, 1.4 spg, 0.7 bpg, 47.6 FG%.

LeBron played the Wizards w/ HCA
Durant played the 2X defending champs

I posted LeBron's stats vs the NBA champions and they were worse than Durant's

[sh0wtime]

Also something which Lebron haters always ignore is the assists (and can most often get away with it).

Its not just a number like rebounds, its offensive accountability!! 1 assist means you were accountable for 2 or 3 points, 7 assists means 14-21 points accountability to team points, add his 31.4 and you get = 45.4 - 52.4 points, he was accountable on average that many points every night.

Compared to Durants ~3 assists, which is 6-9 points accountability, alongside his 30.1 ppg you get a whopping total of 36.1 - 39.1 point accountability.

Which means while Lebron efficiently played 3 more positions, playing better defense, being a better leader, better in the clutch, better overall productions and did all that in a lesser team he also was accountable for 9.3 - 13.3 more points!

So yes, Lebron was better.

[YouCallILose]

Also something which Lebron haters always ignore is the assists (and can most often get away with it).

Its not just a number like rebounds, its offensive accountability!! 1 assist means you were accountable for 2 or 3 points, 7 assists means 14-21 points accountability to team points, add his 31.4 and you get = 45.4 - 52.4 points, he was accountable on average that many points every night.

Compared to Durants ~3 assists, which is 6-9 points accountability, alongside his 30.1 ppg you get a whopping total of 36.1 - 39.1 point accountability.

Which means while Lebron dominated 3 more positions, playing better defense, being a better leader, better in the clutch, better overall productions and did all that in a lesser team he also was accountable for 9.3 - 13.3 more points!


Going by your scale, John Stockton was accountable for more points than Michael Jordan

Stockton=GOAT, right?

You're an idiot. 1st off, Durant plays off of the ball meaning he has a much smaller opportunity for racking up assists.

Secondly, you are accrediting a player points scored off of an assist. You do realize that the person making the shot getting him an assist is the person scoring, right? You get an assist for a guy making a contested jumper off a screen, MAN WHAT A PLAYMAKER

LeBron's a superior playmaker but anyone in the game would average 5+ assists per game if they had the ball as much as he does

As for your little scale, that's just embarrassing and you should remove the post.

[ballinhun8]

The Lakers weren't the 2x champs when they beat Westbrook and the Thunder.

[Lebron23]

Going by your scale, John Stockton was accountable for more points than Michael Jordan

Stockton=GOAT, right?

You're an idiot. 1st off, Durant plays off of the ball meaning he has a much smaller opportunity for racking up assists.

Secondly, you are accrediting a player points scored off of an assist. You do realize that the person making the shot getting him an assist is the person scoring, right? You get an assist for a guy making a contested jumper off a screen, MAN WHAT A PLAYMAKER

LeBron's a superior playmaker but anyone in the game would average 5+ assists per game if they had the ball as much as he does

As for your little scale, that's just embarrassing and you should remove the post.

LeBron has a better court vision than Kevin Durant. Durant couldn't' even average over 5 apg in College and NBA.

[InspiredLebowski]

LeBron has a better court vision than Kevin Durant.Enough with the name calling.

[YouCallILose]

LeBron has a better court vision than Kevin Durant. Durant couldn't' even average over 5 apg in College and NBA.

LeBron's a superior playmaker

read please

And Durant averages 3 apg while having the ball in his hands a fraction of the amount lebron does. if you give him the ball as much as lebron, he's over 5

[Lebron23]

LeBron's a superior playmaker

read please

And Durant averages 3 apg while having the ball in his hands a fraction of the amount lebron does. if you give him the ball as much as lebron, he's over 5


You are a very smart guy. LeBron is still averaging 7.3 apg while playing with Dwayne Wade. Just admit that Durant doesn't have the skills to average over 4 assists per game in the NBA and FiBA competitions.

LeBron averaged 5.9 apg in the 2008 Olympics.

[YouCallILose]

You are a very smart guy. LeBron is still averaging 7.3 apg while playing with Dwayne Wade. Just admit that Durant doesn't have the skills to average over 4 assists per game in the NBA and FiBA competitions.

um...raw assist numbers are not a result of passing ability, but rather ball dominance

kind of like how wade was averaging 8 assists per game a few years ago, but is now down at 4 since he never has the ball with lebron on the team.

go look at where lebron led teams rank in the league in terms of assists.

[Batz]

NBA Coaches >>>>>>>>> ISH Posters. LeBron was 2x member of the All NBA Defensive Team.
You think that shit has any credibility and is not heavily favored on NBA Stars? :rolleyes:

[Lebron23]

um...raw assist numbers are not a result of passing ability, but rather ball dominance

kind of like how wade was averaging 8 assists per game a few years ago, but is now down at 4 since he never has the ball with lebron on the team.

go look at where lebron led teams rank in the league in terms of assists.


Wade is the superior scorer while LeBron is the better passer.

[Lebron23]

You think that shit has any credibility and is not heavily favored on NBA Stars? :rolleyes:


According to the Kobe fans. Kobe is an elite defender because he was selected every year in the All NBA Defensive Team.

[YouCallILose]

Wade is the superior scorer while LeBron is the better passer.

no..lebron is a better scorer than dwayne wade and he is the 2nd best scorer in the league behind durant

he is also a superior playmaker to wade

but that has absolutely no relevance to the fact wade's assist numbers have diminished greatly with lebron on the team due to the fact he never has the ball.

lebron is a better playmaker than durant, but the reason he averages 4 more assists per game is not due to his playmaking but rather his ball dominance. if lebron played exactly like durant as in off of the ball, he would probably average between 4-5.5 assists per game

[Batz]

According to the Kobe fans. Kobe is an elite defender because he was selected every year in the All NBA Defensive Team.
And you don't have an agenda?

[Lebron23]

And you don't have an agenda?


LeBron rightfully deserves his 2nd All NBA Defensive team selection. He led the NBA in Chase Down blocks last season. He blocked Durant and Roy's game winning shot in the regular season. He played some excellent defense on Paul Pierce in the 2010 Playoffs.

[YouCallILose]

LeBron rightfully deserves his 2nd All NBA Defensive team selection. He led the NBA in Chase Down blocks last season. He blocked Durant and Roy's game winning shot in the regular season. He played some excellent defense on Paul Pierce in the 2010 Playoffs.

he was beaten by durant on that play and had to have held defense from anthony parker. lebron is a good defender, but he's certainly not a top 5 defender in the league. and neither is kobe or wade for that matter.

[Career .557 TS%]

LeBron rightfully deserves his 2nd All NBA Defensive team selection. He led the NBA in Chase Down blocks last season. He blocked Durant and Roy's game winning shot in the regular season. He played some excellent defense on Paul Pierce in the 2010 Playoffs.
:roll:

[Rose]

Real all defensive team in g-g-f-f-c
Sefo
Bell
Artest
Smoove
Dwight

Or in the 1-5
Rondo
Manu
Artest
Smoove
Dwight

[Lebron23]

:roll:


Blocks = Defense

It prevents the opposing team from scoring in their own basket.

[YouCallILose]

Blocks = Defense

Durant blocked more shots than LeBron last year

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Lebron and Durant have something in common.....
...neither one is the best player on his team.

But I just don't see Durant pussing-out to join 2 superstars to carry him to a championship.

[Batz]

He led the NBA in Chase Down blocks last season.
I'm not going to bother with this.

He blocked Durant and Roy's game winning shot in the regular season.
Durant got fouled anyways. Roy's was neat, but there have countless players who made game saving plays on the defensive end, they don't get an All-NBA defensive selection for it. That's just a pitiful counter argument. Just picking at anything at this point I see.

He played some excellent defense on Paul Pierce in the 2010 Playoffs.
More like Rondo dominating the ball making Pierce basically a spot up shooter. Gonna use one of your favorite quotes here ya know 'WATCH THE GAMES'.

[Batz]

Durant blocked more shots than LeBron last year
They both averaged 1. Durant played more games that's all.

[BallsOut]

I could easily name 5 SFs who play way better defense than Lebron:

Ron Artest
Gerald Wallace
Tayshaun Prince
Andrei Kirilenko
Shane Battier

[sh0wtime]

Going by your scale, John Stockton was accountable for more points than Michael Jordan

You are horribly wrong.

Career PPG / APG for John Stockton is 13.1 ppg & 10.5 apg.
Thats an accountability of between 34.1 - 44.1 points.

Career PPG / APG for Michael Jordan is 30.1 ppg & 5.3 apg.
Thats an accountability of between 40.7 - 46.0 points.


Stockton=GOAT, right?

Nope. Not only was Michael Jordan accountable for more points, but he was thousand times better at everything else. I know you aint that delusional and you were trying to be sarcastic (i hope).


1st off, Durant plays off of the ball meaning he has a much smaller opportunity for racking up assists. LeBron's a superior playmaker but anyone in the game would average 5+ assists per game if they had the ball as much as he does

And the reason for that is? Durant doesnt possess enough of ballhandling, decision making, passing or court vision to be entrusted such PG/point-forward duties. So no, not anybody can "have the ball" (as in play point-forward) and average more accurately speaking 7+ apg, infact Lebron is the only non-PG in NBA history to average almost 9 apg in NBA history and 1st Forward in NBA history to average over 8 apg and has proven to average 12.1 apg when he actually starts PG and handles the ball even more like any PG, the thing is he does it while averaging 30 ppg and 7 rpg, so you know he could very easily average 10+ apg if he wanted to.


Secondly, you are accrediting a player points scored off of an assist. You do realize that the person making the shot getting him an assist is the person scoring, right? You get an assist for a guy making a contested jumper off a screen, MAN WHAT A PLAYMAKER

No its not accrediting anybody, an assist is the accountability between two players, the distributor gets 1 assist and the finisher recieves 2-3 points, but they both were accountable for that play, understand? For example the distributor creates an entirely open layup for you and all you have to do is lay it in, hence why he is accountable for the play also, if he was not accountable or didnt create it that means you took the ball all by yourself and created the play for yourself, then nobody is accountable for that play except only you.


You're an idiot.

As you can see that insult has worked against you instead.


As for your little scale, that's just embarrassing and you should remove the post.

Maybe you should consider that hint for yourself?

[ihatetimthomas]

Blocks = Defense

It prevents the opposing team from scoring in their own basket.

No, blocks do not always equal defense. There have been plenty of players who could block shots but cannot defend their man or even play team defense. You need to get off Lebron's jock, its quite nauseating.

[Lebron23]

I'm not going to bother with this.

Durant got fouled anyways. Roy's was neat, but there have countless players who made game saving plays on the defensive end, they don't get an All-NBA defensive selection for it. That's just a pitiful counter argument. Just picking at anything at this point I see.

More like Rondo dominating the ball making Pierce basically a spot up shooter. Gonna use one of your favorite quotes here ya know 'WATCH THE GAMES'.


How many cavaliers games did you watch last season?

[Batz]

How many cavaliers games did you watch last season?
At this point I wouldn't be surprised that I've watched more than you.

[Lebron23]

No, blocks do not always equal defense. There have been plenty of players who could block shots but cannot defend their man or even play team defense. You need to get off Lebron's jock, its quite nauseating.

I think he's a good team defender. I watch some of his games since his rookie season. He's has improved his defensive game every season.

PS:

You also need to get off Kobe C*ck, it's getting quote annoying. I wish he retires next season.

[ihatetimthomas]

I think he's a good team defender. I watch some of his games since his rookie season. He's has improved his defensive game every season.

PS:

You also need to get off Kobe C*ck, it's getting quote annoying. I wish he retires next season.

Find me a thread where I ride Kobe's dick all night long like you do to Lebron. I challenge you. How stupid are you? I would like to see this evdidence of me riding Kobe's ****. My you are an idiot

You were an ok poster, but after you pathetically jumped ship to slurp on Lebron in Miami, all respect was lost.

[comerb]

Take away Westbrook and give Durant Moe Williams. Then compare again.

Lebron makes him teammates a lot better than Durant could ever dream of. He has more of an impact on the game.

[YouCallILose]

You are horribly wrong.

Career PPG / APG for John Stockton is 13.1 ppg & 10.5 apg.
Thats an accountability of between 34.1 - 44.1 points.

Career PPG / APG for Michael Jordan is 30.1 ppg & 5.3 apg.
Thats an accountability of between 40.7 - 46.0 points.

Peak John Stockton 17.2 ppg 14.5 apg
That's an accountability of between 46.2-60.7 points or an average of 53.45 ppg

Peak Michael Jordan 48.5-56.5 points or an average of 52.5 ppg

Peak Stockton>Peak Jordan



And the reason for that is? Durant doesnt possess enough of ballhandling, decision making, passing or court vision to be entrusted such PG/point-forward duties. So no, not anybody can "have the ball" (as in play point-forward) and average more accurately speaking 7+ apg, infact Lebron is the only non-PG in NBA history to average almost 9 apg in NBA history and has proven to average 12.1 apg when he actually starts PG and handles the ball even more like any PG, the thing is he does it while average 30 ppg and 7 rpg.


time to destroy your entire argument of what lebron does. lebron james's starting point guard over the past 8 years has been the least productive starting PG in the entire NBA. He has averaged under 5 assists per game which is unbelievably low and honestly flat out embarrassing for a player getting 30+ mpg @ that position.

kevin durant's point guards average over 8 assists per game per 36. Why is that? because they have the ball in their god damn hands since the guy who is supposed to be a small forward actually plays small forward and not point guard.




No its not accrediting anybody, an assist is the accountability between two players, the distributor gets 1 assist and the finisher recieves 2-3 points, but they both were accountable for that play, understand? For example the distributor creates an entirely open layup for you and all you have to do is lay it in, hence why he is accountable for the play also, if he was not accountable or didnt create it that means you took the ball all by yourself and created the play for yourself, then nobody is accountable for that play except only you.

this is literally the worst explanation for anything in the history of explanations. i'm embarrassed for you.

Maybe you should consider that hint for yourself?

Word of advice: stop posting

[YouCallILose]

Take away Westbrook and give Durant Moe Williams. Then compare again.

Lebron makes him teammates a lot better than Durant could ever dream of. He has more of an impact on the game.

I guess that explains why the Thunder's second unit+Durant was even better than their first unit last year.

[Lebron23]

Find me a thread where I ride Kobe's dick all night long like you do to Lebron. I challenge you. How stupid are you? I would like to see this evdidence of me riding Kobe's ****. My you are an idiot

You were an ok poster, but after you pathetically jumped ship to slurp on Lebron in Miami, all respect was lost.

You started the name calling. I just defended LeBron because these annoying twats are always trolling in the Heat Game Thread.

[Bandito]

I think he's a good team defender. I watch some of his games since his rookie season. He's has improved his defensive game every season.

PS:

You also need to get off Kobe C*ck, it's getting quote annoying. I wish he retires next season.

Dude you got problems. Yuo should stop being a Lebron obsessive fanatic and start watching some games. Lebron defense is at most average and he doesn't even has any post moves IMO.

[Lebron23]

Dude you got problems. Yuo should stop being a Lebron stans and start watching some games. Lebron defense is at most average and he doesn't even has any post moves IMO.


Watch Some Games

[Batz]

You started the name calling. I just defended LeBron because these annoying twats are always trolling in the Heat Game Thread.
Is every thread a Heat Games Thread?

[YouCallILose]

You started the name calling. I just defended LeBron because these annoying twats are always trolling in the Heat Game Thread.

I have a question. Why do you defend LeBron?

This entire thread, and the entire Durant charade, was an elaborate trolling scheme which honestly went too far but it's all good. You on the other hands have 20,000 posts dedicated to LeBron James. Why? In case you haven't noticed, I only post things about Kevin Durant to get people riled up as I find it hilarious. I love arguing something against the grain where I legitimately have a challenge to prove a point. What you are doing on the other hand is just what the hell. There are maybe, 1000 members on this site who post actively. None of us know LeBron James nor have any impact on his life or the real world's perception of him. So why defend him?

[ihatetimthomas]

You started the name calling. I just defended LeBron because these annoying twats are always trolling in the Heat Game Thread.

lol, name calling? I said you riding Lebron's jock is nauseating. Where is this so called name calling?

So you decide to throw out empty lies?? Just because I offended you about Lebron?

I made a valid point. Blocking alone does not always equate defense. And that is fact. I am not saying Lebron is a bad defender, bc I think he does an ok job. I merely pointed out your statement about blocking = defense has no merit bc it is not always true.

I hate Kobe stans and Laker homers as much as everyone, but you are just as bad

[Batz]

I have a question. Why do you defend LeBron?
Why.. do you.. defend Durant...?

[Rose]

I have a question. Why do you defend LeBron?

This entire thread, and the entire Durant charade, was an elaborate trolling scheme which honestly went too far but it's all good. You on the other hands have 20,000 posts dedicated to LeBron James. Why? In case you haven't noticed, I only post things about Kevin Durant to get people riled up as I find it hilarious.
And once I realized the latter....I laughed. :roll: :cheers:

[Bandito]

Watch Some Games
Great come back, it just shows your immaturity...

[Batz]

Holy crap, he trolled us all.

[Lebron23]

I have a question. Why do you defend LeBron?

This entire thread, and the entire Durant charade, was an elaborate trolling scheme which honestly went too far but it's all good. You on the other hands have 20,000 posts dedicated to LeBron James. Why? In case you haven't noticed, I only post things about Kevin Durant to get people riled up as I find it hilarious. I love arguing something against the grain where I legitimately have a challenge to prove a point. What you are doing on the other hand is just what the hell. There are maybe, 1000 members on this site who post actively. None of us know LeBron James nor have any impact on his life or the real world's perception of him. So why defend him?


Why do you defend Durant35? By the way where were these Kobe trolls when the Lakers were barely a playoffs team in the Western Conference?

[YouCallILose]

Why.. do you.. defend Durant...?

Go look at when I mention Durant/bring him into a thread. It's just to piss people off, which is remarkably effective.

[Lebron23]

Great come back, it just shows your immaturity...


I have a good comeback, but the moderator would delete my post.

[Rose]

Holy crap, he trolled us all.
I know that on the Batzman scale of comedy..this is like a 3. but for some reason I bursted out laughing and give it a 8.8

[Bandito]

I have a good comeback, but the moderator would delete my post.
If you use bad words as a comeback then you are an immature kid. Grow up...