David Robinson vs Kevin Garnett?

[SmoothJ2]

Who is higher in your all-time ranking list, who's the better player and who would you rather have on your team?

David Robinson
2

[Bigsmoke]

thats a tough one...

ummmmmmmmmm


i might go with KG

[KG5MVP]

if i have a new franchise i would build aroung david robinson

yes i said it, David Robinson

[TheAnchorman]

if i have a new franchise i would build aroung david robinson

yes i said it, David Robinson
And let me present to you, ladies and gentlemen, the most schizophrenic poster on ISH :applause: :applause: :applause:

[m y t i n]

KG, on a contender

[Y2Gezee]

Must be an intangible thing, or a perception of one, as to why DRob is so underratted and over looked


Robinson's stats and defense can stand with the best of them. AND he won a lot of games, without a Robin or shall I say...a Pippen that can be a consistent alternative go to guy and well rounded player.

[highwhey]

The Admiral.

[Batz]

David and not even close.

[SmoothRED]

Robinson was basically Garnett on steroids.

[DirtBag]

Robinson was basically Garnett on steroids.
I agree with this

[SmoothJ2]

Robinson was better at KG's current age. I think.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Robinson was basically Garnett on steroids.

Why are you posting in your thread with 2 names?

[Andrei89]

if i have a new franchise i would build aroung david robinson

yes i said it, David Robinson


you just said it so people think you ain't kissing Garnetts ass everytime you make a Garnett thread. We will get 10 probably this week

[Johnni Gade]

That is indeed a tough one. But just because of my love for Celtics ill go with Garnett

[ShaqAttack3234]

Yeah, Robinson at age 33 won his first championship and was much better.

Did you forget with name you logged in with? :roll: Replying to yourself?

[PistonsFan#21]

Did you forget with name you logged in with? :roll: Replying to yourself?

:oldlol: He exposed himself

[Harison]

Tough choice, but probably Robinson. Although KG would complement Duncan better than DRob, so it depends on the team as well.

[TheAnchorman]

Did you forget with name you logged in with? :roll: Replying to yourself?
:roll: :roll: :applause: That's hilarious

[dough]

I love how the OP put the annuals of KG's awards UNDERNEATH the actual awards, to make his list seem longer than Robinson's. Good stuff. KG with the Wolves was never as good as the Admirals was with the Spurs (sand Duncan). Robinson also battled some of the greatest players and teams in the history of the league.

[Rake2204]

Wow, huge David Robinson fan here but I totally didn't realize he was 33 years old when he won his first championship. I never paid attention to his age I guess. . .and those two years in the Navy probably threw the whole "age relative to NBA experience" angle all out of whack.

[dough]

I copied and pasted from wikipedia bro.
Did you now, "bro"? Where are the brackets on wikipedia?
No brackets here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Garnett

[ShaqAttack3234]

What other log in? I mean to say Yeah, as I thought..... But I guess you could be your obsessive self. Keep hating on Admiral bud. But lovin' the 3rd grade Vocab. Hey, I thought you never used advanced stats yet you used eFG in the Tmac vs Wilkins thread. I thought Math wasn't your subject?

:oldlol: eFG% isn't the same as garbage like PER. All it is accounting for the extra point in a 3 point shot.

And don't try to change the subject. Listen to yourself. "You have a 3rd grade vocabulary, hey what about the time you used eFG% in the T-Mac thread? Ummmm.....you're a David Robinson hater!"

Too bad it didn't work. Everyone is still laughing about how you exposed yourself.

[RaceBannana]

KG.
I never liked Robinson...

[dough]

you must be blind if you can't see it :oldlol: go copy and paste it yourself.
What Wiki has:


Garnett holds the Larry O'Brien Trophy at the championship parade of the 2008 NBA Champions Boston Celtics.
During his time in the league Garnett has established a long list of achievements, including:[2]
NBA Champion: 2008
NBA Most Valuable Player: 2004
NBA Defensive Player of the Year: 2008
USA Olympics: Gold Medal: 2000
NBA All-Star Game MVP: 2003
13-time NBA All-Star: 1997, 1998, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010
9-time All-NBA selection:
First Team: 2000, 2003, 2004, 2008
Second Team: 2001, 2002, 2005
Third Team: 1999, 2007
10-time All-Defensive:
First Team: 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2008, 2009
Second Team: 2006, 2007
NBA All-Rookie selection:
Second team: 1996
J. Walter Kennedy Citizenship Award: 2006


What you claim to have copied straight away from wiki:
[QUOTE]Kevin Garnett
NBA Champion
(2008)
NBA Most Valuable Player
(2004)
NBA Defensive Player of the Year
(2008)
13

[KG5MVP]

Yea but with all seriousness, KG is the better player and better leader

[ShaqAttack3234]

Yeah I'm the one changing the subejct, even though you've done nothing to contribute the thread. See this is where graduating high school would be helpful, along with your math. Everybody = 3 people now? :oldlol: Graduate High School before posting again. Thanks.

Ironic coming from a 15-16 year old. :oldlol: You do nothing to contribute to this forum, you were offered money to never come back again. You've ltierally had over 2 dozen accounts. And remember your thread about whose opinion you'd trust, a high school dropout or a 15 year old? How'd that work out for you?

[dough]

You're stupid.

Am I now? Your agenda is too obvious. And you're lying.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Yeah, you told me not to change the subject and you are just grasping for more and more straws. :oldlol:

Robinson > Garnett > Ewing.

Says the kid who never saw Ewing or Robinson in their prime. You admitted once that you started watching basketball in 2003, that was Robinson's last year.

And the original subject I brought was you replying to yourself and posting in the same thread with multiple accounts. Why on earth would you do that? What purpose does it have?

[dough]

Says the kid who never saw Ewing or Robinson in their prime. You admitted once that you started watching basketball in 2003, that was Robinson's last year.

And the original subject I brought was you replying to yourself and posting in the same thread with multiple accounts. Why on earth would you do that? What purpose does it have?
Did he? You got any quotes?

[dough]

Of course not, he's just grasping at straws. But who sounds smarter, someone who thinks David Robinson is better than Patrick Ewing or someone who thinks Dwight Howard is better than David Robinson? Because he's the one that thinks Howard is better than Robinson. :oldlol:


This is just boring now. :sleeping
When did you start watching then?

[dough]

1995. So who's dumber?
The lying one. What's your age?

[ShaqAttack3234]

Because he's the one that thinks Howard is better than Robinson. :oldlol:


:roll: I never said Howard was better, in fact I said numerous times that despite the fact that I'd rather build around Howard, Robinson was definitely the better player. Go find the thread, you'll see.


1995. So who's dumber?

:roll: :oldlol: :roll: You tried claiming that you started watching in 1995 on your RocketGreatness account. This is just pathetic.

[dough]

Oh so you think Howard is better than Admiral too? :oldlol:
No, I said the lying one. Obviously you felt I was talking about you then?

[Dieselblitz34]

Wow, huge David Robinson fan here but I totally didn't realize he was 33 years old when he won his first championship. I never paid attention to his age I guess. . .and those two years in the Navy probably threw the whole "age relative to NBA experience" angle all out of whack.
I really wish we saw more years of Robinson, two more years of his prime could have completely altered his career.

[chazzy]

Did you forget with name you logged in with? :roll: Replying to yourself?

:oldlol:

[veilside23]

why compare they dont play the same position?

but if i would pick a guy and i know i have a good front office and coach and stuff. id pick kg.

its not an excuse but its the truth kg has never played with anyone of sean elliot's caliber throughout his days in minnesota.

drob never had a robin.. lol :D

[magnax1]

KG. Easily. better passer, rebounder, defender. Everything except scorer.

[AirJordan&Magic]

Did you forget with name you logged in with? :roll: Replying to yourself?

:oldlol: :oldlol: :roll:

[gyu]

What Wiki has:



What you claim to have copied straight away from wiki:


Why the lies? Your agenda is too obvious.
It's on the very right under his picture

[Big#50]

Robinson from 89 to 93 was sick. DROB>KG

[BA_God]

KG. Easily. better passer, rebounder, defender. Everything except scorer.

and how old are you?

[magnax1]

and how old are you?
I started watching NBA in 95, so I saw plenty of Robinson, and I've watched plenty of him from 90-95. Maybe Robinsons 2 best years were better then KGs, but just looking at the teams they had, and how much they over performed, you have to pick KG. from 00-03 KGs best team mates were Wally and Terrell Brandon's corpse. Not near as good as Sean Elliot, Rod Strickland, and Terry Cummings, yet pretty similar results.

[wang4three]

Easily David Robinson

[Dave_520]

David Robinson.

1. Robinson played well against a more competitive league, and against stiffer competition at his position.

2. While I will agree that Robinson had better overall teams, they weren't better by all THAT much, as Sean Elliiot while decent, is probably the most overrated player to have his number retired besides Avery Johnson. He had a few all star appearances when the league was suffering a weak talent streak, scored 20 ppg probably one season and was a notoriously average at best defender.

3. David Robinson was a better defensive player IMO. Not taking away from KG's great defensive qualities but take any of KG's seasons and put them against D-Rob's 91-92 season and you will understand. Now I know this is only a sample, but Robinson's versatility was unmatched by anyone not named Hakeem during his tenure. Yeah, KG is probably one of the most well rounded guys to ever play basketball, but he wasn't over seven feet tall and playing the center position. I would venture to say he was probably more explosive and faster baseline to baseline as well.

4. David Robinson was more dominant offensively. Now much of this how to do with KG's blatant disregard for scoring and his love for passing, and KG obviously has a more rounded offensive game than the Admiral, however D-Rob was more unstoppable compared to others at his position, scored more often, and go to the free throw line more often (this is big) than KG.

[ginobli2311]

very very close for me.

i have them both in my top 18 all time i think....probably within 2 or 3 spots of each other.

i'd lean towards KG, but i can't really tell you why. there is no clear answer. anyone saying "easily KG or easily Robinson" didn't watch them play.

[Batz]

if i have a new franchise i would build aroung david robinson

yes i said it, David Robinson
We all know you're a Jordan fan more so than a KG one so whatever...

[DuMa]

Very close imho. Hard pressed to find something wrong with one another on your team. I would pick the admiral because he was a true center.

Also I believe kg would have done a better job on hakeem than david did, he was destroyed by hakeem, if you forgot

[Round Mound]

Robinson till 1995-96 before injuries

[MMM]

I like Garnett's leadership over Robinson's despite Robinson having much better success in comparable situations as the man. Honestly speaking I think the difference in their scoring production may have some to do with how the game evolved from the early 90's to where you had multiple high scoring bigs to KG's era where it was much rearer .

[SinJackal]

I love how the OP put the annuals of KG's awards UNDERNEATH the actual awards, to make his list seem longer than Robinson's. Good stuff. KG with the Wolves was never as good as the Admirals was with the Spurs (sand Duncan). Robinson also battled some of the greatest players and teams in the history of the league.

:roll: In other words, KG's list is actually half as long as it appears to be.

DRob > KG easily. KG's had a longer career, Robinson was obviously the better player on both ends of the floor.

[Teanett]

I like Garnett's leadership over Robinson's despite Robinson having much better success in comparable situations as the man. Honestly speaking I think the difference in their scoring production may have some to do with how the game evolved from the early 90's to where you had multiple high scoring bigs to KG's era where it was much rearer .


you make it sound like robinson played in the 70's.
kg came to the league only 5 years after robinson. kg was already an all-star when admiral won his first title. he was well inside admiral's era. with enough high scoring bigs around scoring in the high 20's (shaq, malone, webber, dirk even duncan).
the reason why kg wasn't one of them and wasn't as dominant a scorer as robinson is that... he just wasn't.

[ginobli2311]

:roll: In other words, KG's list is actually half as long as it appears to be.

DRob > KG easily. KG's had a longer career, Robinson was obviously the better player on both ends of the floor.

saying easily is just not true.

you are letting being a spurs fans cloud your judgment.

[Harison]

David Robinson.

1. Robinson played well against a more competitive league, and against stiffer competition at his position.
Thats half-truth. Its true DRob played in the golden age with stacked Top talent, but its also true KG faced vastly better teams in the Playoffs during Minny career. Also Admiral had better teammates, in later part of his career he even had freaking Duncan, not much to cry about. So in the end your argument doesnt work, in THIS case.



2. While I will agree that Robinson had better overall teams, they weren't better by all THAT much, as Sean Elliiot while decent, is probably the most overrated player to have his number retired besides Avery Johnson. He had a few all star appearances when the league was suffering a weak talent streak, scored 20 ppg probably one season and was a notoriously average at best defender.
Spurs wouldnt have won 56-62 games per year in the Golden age with a crappy team, when Champions won as many if not less games, like Rockets with 47. So lets not throw teammates under bus when Robinson folded in the Playoffs himself. If he would have kept his Regular season averages (or even elevated his game, like most other superstars do), Spurs would have been perennial contender, winning multiple rings before TD even arrives.



3. David Robinson was a better defensive player IMO. Not taking away from KG's great defensive qualities but take any of KG's seasons and put them against D-Rob's 91-92 season and you will understand. Now I know this is only a sample, but Robinson's versatility was unmatched by anyone not named Hakeem during his tenure. Yeah, KG is probably one of the most well rounded guys to ever play basketball, but he wasn't over seven feet tall and playing the center position. I would venture to say he was probably more explosive and faster baseline to baseline as well.
I would agree DRob was a better defender than either KG or Timmy, almost on Hakeem level. He wasnt quarterback of the defense like KG is though, that makes their impact somewhat comparable, but I would still give Robinson an edge in D.



4. David Robinson was more dominant offensively. Now much of this how to do with KG's blatant disregard for scoring and his love for passing, and KG obviously has a more rounded offensive game than the Admiral, however D-Rob was more unstoppable compared to others at his position, scored more often, and go to the free throw line more often (this is big) than KG.
In the regular season yes, in playoffs no. KG elevated his games in the post-season, DRob crashed. Plus offense includes court vision and passing, and KG is much better at it than Admiral.

[t-rex]

I would go with Garnett. But its close.

As for why Robinson is so underrated? I think all Spurs are underrated. Tim Duncan, George Gervin and even Mano Ginobli are also vastly underrated.


Heck look at the press regarding the NBA? Its all Heat, Celtics, Lakers and Knicks. And its not a "big market thing" either because I hear plenty of press about the Thunder. But you hear nothing about the Spurs. And they have the leagues best record.


Maybe the Spurs need a uniform change or something so their GOAT players can get some respect.

[jlauber]

Very close imho. Hard pressed to find something wrong with one another on your team. I would pick the admiral because he was a true center.

Also I believe kg would have done a better job on hakeem than david did, he was destroyed by hakeem, if you forgot

Yes, Hakeem battered Robinson in ONE post-season series that encompassed SIX games. But how about over the course of the careers?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=robinda01

They met 42 times during their careers, and aside from Robinson's team's going 30-12 against Hakeem's, their numbers were almost identical.

Hakeem scored 21.9 ppg to Robinson's 19.6 ppg.

Robinson outshot Hakeem from the field by a .488 to .441 margin.

Hakeem outshot Robinson from the FT line by a .768 to .717 margin (BUT, Robinson scored more from the line.)

They were EQUAL in rebounding at 11.2 rpg

Robinson edged Hakeem in assists, 2.9 apg to 2.8 apg

Hakeem nipped Robinson in blocked shots, 3.4 bpg to 3.3 bpg

Robinson had more steals, 2.2 spg to 1.9 spg

Hakeem was slightly better in turnovers, 2.9 tpg to 3.0 tpg


Now, once again, that was over the course of 42 regular season H2H meetings. So, for those that believe that Hakeem "destroyed" Robinson, they had better take a closer look.

[greymatter]

Robinson and it's not even close. Robinson was longer, taller, faster and more dominant on both sides of the ball. He was never quite the same coming back from a broken foot, but he's kinda lucky that it happened else he'd have never had Duncan to carry him to his 2 titles.

If you want to compare careers, then a case can be made for KG.

[veilside23]

< - the man in my avatar. need not to explain any further. drob may have battled alot of great guys but kg battled who is considered by everyone as the best .. tim duncan. so kg for me !

[jlauber]

BTW,

I have no real preference between Robinson and Garnett. I just get sick-and-tired of reading how Hakeem "destroyed" DRob.

[Jacks3]

I'll take KG. Robinson never showed up for the playoffs and wasn't there mentally. Too soft. Also, KG's longevity is much more impressive.

[TheJester21]

I think Drob was the better player... It's close but the admiral was defensively and offensively a monster before his injury.

Who would I take on my team... I'll take KG. Simply because of what he gives your team... and he sure gives a lot.

[DuMa]

BTW,

I have no real preference between Robinson and Garnett. I just get sick-and-tired of reading how Hakeem "destroyed" DRob.

i was only referring to that MVP series in 95.

[Teanett]

I'll take KG. Robinson never showed up for the playoffs and wasn't there mentally. Too soft. Also, KG's longevity is much more impressive.

compared to admiral, kg is a legendary playoff performer...
hahahaha:roll:

[Teanett]

and stop with the longevity crap.
robinson played 14 nba seasons but he only came to the league at 24.
he retired at 37.

[Harison]

compared to admiral, kg is a legendary playoff performer...
hahahaha:roll:
You probably havent seen prime KG in the playoffs, isnt? :pimp: Granted he havent won much with a crappy Wolves against much stronger competition, yet he had remarkable performances.

[Teanett]

You probably havent seen prime KG in the playoffs, isnt? :pimp: Granted he havent won much with a crappy Wolves against much stronger competition, yet he had remarkable performances.

i've seen him a lot. he needed sam and spree to boast his confidence to take over a series.
other than that, he's always been criticized for not taking the initiative in crunchtime.
as for who had the "crappier" team, robinson had rodman, sean elliott, avery, chuck person, willie anderson. apart from rodman, that's not any better than kg's timberwolves cast.

[Harison]

i've seen him a lot. he needed sam and spree to boast his confidence to take over a series.
other than that, he's always been criticized for not taking the initiative in crunchtime.
as for who had the "crappier" team, robinson had rodman, sean elliott, avery, chuck person, willie anderson. apart from rodman, that's not any better than kg's timberwolves cast.
You mus be joking :oldlol: Garnett best playoffs performances are similar or even better than Duncans, the way he almost singlehandedly won over better Kings team was pretty amazing.

"not taking the initiative in crunchtime" is a common myth. If he passes to an open teammate for the shot in the clutch isnt lack of initiative, its a smart basketball. Bird and Jordan also sometimes passed the ball the crunchtime, and they are the clutchest guys in the history. Some data for you:

http://elgee35.wordpress.com/2011/01/10/the-nbas-best-players-in-the-clutch-since-2003/

"with regards to his chief rival, Tim Duncan, KG

[veilside23]

^ great post! will rep as soon as we have it back.

I hate the kg not being clutch as an argument ... its sickening. thats always the excuse. there are tons of buzzer beater made by kg. so please dont make this as an excuse to take drob over KG. just because of that.

[Teanett]

You mus be joking :oldlol: Garnett best playoffs performances are similar or even better than Duncans, the way he almost singlehandedly won over better Kings team was pretty amazing.



that's the one series i'm referring to. with sam and spree.
the rest? first round and out. thank you.

[Harison]

that's the one series i'm referring to. with sam and spree.
the rest? first round and out. thank you.
Losing to much better teams is one players fault, makes sense :rolleyes: For example Kobe is considered Top10 player All-time, what he did few seasons with Wolves like team? Missed the playoffs and then two 1st round exits, he must suck then?

Or lets talk Jordan, he started with three straight 1st round exits when his team wasnt good and competition just too strong, even though he played fantastically. Yet another sucky player?


^ great post! will rep as soon as we have it back.

I hate the kg not being clutch as an argument ... its sickening. thats always the excuse. there are tons of buzzer beater made by kg. so please dont make this as an excuse to take drob over KG. just because of that.

And thats offense, lets not forget KGs clutch defense is one of a kind. Those who didnt followed him in Minny, at least could see how he was saving Celtics in the clutch D night in and out.

[Teanett]

Losing to much better teams is one players fault, makes sense :rolleyes: For example Kobe is considered Top10 player All-time, what he did few seasons with Wolves like team? Missed the playoffs and then two 1st round exits, he must suck then?

Or lets talk Jordan, he started with three straight 1st round exits when his team wasnt good and competition just too strong, even though he played fantastically. Yet another sucky player?


your argument is flawed.
you ignore the fact that kobe and jordan both won championships as the main scoring option. kg has not and never will.
does that mean he's a "sucky player"? not to me. i never said that.
but if we apply your way of thinking, then yes, he sucks.

[NBASTATMAN]

hard one .. Robinson the better player by a nice margin but I like what kg brings to the table.. I think he is the better leader and that is why I would pick kg..

[drza44]

your argument is flawed.
you ignore the fact that kobe and jordan both won championships as the main scoring option. kg has not and never will.
does that mean he's a "sucky player"? not to me. i never said that.
but if we apply your way of thinking, then yes, he sucks.

Your argument is flawed.

You ignore the fact that KG won a championship as the leading postseason scorer on his team. Seems as though that should be relevant to being the "main scoring option".

Also, when did "best player" turn into "main scoring option"? Was Russell suddenly not the best player on those Celtics because others scored more? Magic not the man because he wasn't always the main scoring option? There are a lot of ways to be the best player besides just scoring.

Your argument is flawed.

[westsideozzie]

Let me school you young folks. The reason people were amazed about Hakeem destroying David Robinson was because up until that point, Robinson routinely outplayed Hakeem. As a matter of fact, Hakeem got better because of David.

Robinson when he was younger was Dwight Howard with a jumpshot. You guys would not remember him beating Syracuse by himself, scoring 50 on Rony S, and Derrick Coleman.

This cat scored 70 points in a game before. He could drive off the dribble like a small forward, and consistently locked down opposing centers. He owned a young Shaq (until Shaq morphed into 375 pounds of muscle).

KG weighed like 225 pounds for most of his career, and Robinson would have owned him if they played against one another and he did. No contest, Big Dave everyday all day on this one..

[XxSMSxX]

Your argument is flawed.

You ignore the fact that KG won a championship as the leading postseason scorer on his team. Seems as though that should be relevant to being the "main scoring option".

Also, when did "best player" turn into "main scoring option"? Was Russell suddenly not the best player on those Celtics because others scored more? Magic not the man because he wasn't always the main scoring option? There are a lot of ways to be the best player besides just scoring.

Your argument is flawed.

On top of being the defensive anchor and motivator for that Celtics squad, As much as I love Pierce that was KG's finals mvp

[SayTownRy]

Let me school you young folks. The reason people were amazed about Hakeem destroying David Robinson was because up until that point, Robinson routinely outplayed Hakeem. As a matter of fact, Hakeem got better because of David.

Robinson when he was younger was Dwight Howard with a jumpshot. You guys would not remember him beating Syracuse by himself, scoring 50 on Rony S, and Derrick Coleman.

This cat scored 70 points in a game before. He could drive off the dribble like a small forward, and consistently locked down opposing centers. He owned a young Shaq (until Shaq morphed into 375 pounds of muscle).

KG weighed like 225 pounds for most of his career, and Robinson would have owned him if they played against one another and he did. No contest, Big Dave everyday all day on this one..

very nice :applause:

prime or even later in his career d rob would put a hurt on today's league

[Teanett]

Your argument is flawed.

You ignore the fact that KG won a championship as the leading postseason scorer on his team. Seems as though that should be relevant to being the "main scoring option".

Also, when did "best player" turn into "main scoring option"? Was Russell suddenly not the best player on those Celtics because others scored more? Magic not the man because he wasn't always the main scoring option? There are a lot of ways to be the best player besides just scoring.

Your argument is flawed.

this is not my argument. read the posts before.
i don't rank a player's quality based on wether or not he's the main scorer on his team. what has the "best player" to do with this? this not the point of discussion anyway.

[necya]

KG. Easily. better passer, rebounder, defender. Everything except scorer.

D Rob easily (but not more easily if you compare their IQ). the more i read from you, the more i think you just don't know what you are talking about.

oh jesus, is there a troll party? all those who picked KG...:facepalm

[detroitkid816]

Its very close, but the citizenship award gives KG the edge for me.

[SHEED_ gangsta]

David Robinson by far. Played for just one team and won the title. 1 of only 4 players to record a quadruple double. career high 72 ****ing points. And doesn't have to put on some tough guy act to scare his opponents his game does that for him.

[Sand1]

In his prime I never respected David Robinson. He has the skills, the body and a good team but I always felt he was soft and not even a great leader.

I respect him and his achievements more now a few years after he's gone. In his prime he had to battle a host of top centers and would easily be regarded as the top centre in the nba today.

Back to the question i'd pick Garnett. personal choice I prefer him as a player and over all package

[Round Mound]

Let me school you young folks. The reason people were amazed about Hakeem destroying David Robinson was because up until that point, Robinson routinely outplayed Hakeem. As a matter of fact, Hakeem got better because of David.

Robinson when he was younger was Dwight Howard with a jumpshot. You guys would not remember him beating Syracuse by himself, scoring 50 on Rony S, and Derrick Coleman.

This cat scored 70 points in a game before. He could drive off the dribble like a small forward, and consistently locked down opposing centers. He owned a young Shaq (until Shaq morphed into 375 pounds of muscle).

KG weighed like 225 pounds for most of his career, and Robinson would have owned him if they played against one another and he did. No contest, Big Dave everyday all day on this one..


:applause:

[drza44]

this is not my argument. read the posts before.
i don't rank a player's quality based on wether or not he's the main scorer on his team. what has the "best player" to do with this? this not the point of discussion anyway.

I read the post before. Harrison said essentially that it was silly to grade KG only on his team losing in the first round without taking teammate quality into it. He mentioned Jordan and Kobe as examples of great players who couldn't advance past the 1st round when their teams were outgunned. You responded by saying that the difference between Jordan/Kobe and KG was that "kobe and jordan both won championships as the main scoring option. kg has not and never will."

Which brings us back to the fact that a) KG won a championship as the main scoring option on his team and b) being the "main scoring option" isn't the same as being the "best player", so I fail to see what your point was anyway.

On-topic, I take KG. I think KG and Admiral were similar caliber players, but I like what KG brings to the table a bit more. I think he'd be easier to build around and I like his "intangibles" (I hate that term) more.

[Pointguard]

that's the one series i'm referring to. with sam and spree.
the rest? first round and out. thank you.

So that's a reference to KG's help? So let's look at Robinson's help.

I think David had the better career beause of his help. I think KG does better with Robinson's teams tho. KG was more dominant defensively and would have gotten more out of those SA teams than Robinson. Pop would have had a total lock down team with Garnett like Boston's 08 team with even better defensive pieces with Sean Elliot, Willie Anderson, Avery Johnson, JR Reid. And those guys, minus Reid could hit open shots and slash better than anybody on Minny for years - and he had like 5 or seven years with these guys. He had Dale Ellis and Chuck Person in there as well in the non-Jordan years. So he had some of the best shooters ever on his team with defense and rebounding with Rodman. And he lost to a team that didn't have the same defensive pieces and on offense sported a center opposite David. In his earlier years he had PF Terry Cummings, outstanding PG Rod Strickland, the all around defensive point forward Paul Pressey and pure shooter Trent Tucker.

The later years with Pop he has great defensive pieces with Antonio Daniels, Duncan, Mario Ellie, Terry Porter, Malik Rose, Steven Jackson and Steve Smith for shooting.

So Robinson came into a great organization, had great coaches. and far superior players. With defensive coaches like Larry Brown and Pop. And you are comparing this and all that is above to a 33 year old Sprewell in his last year and a 35 year old Sam Cassell who lost not a step but a limp, A notoriously bad organization and a coach that never won much. The first year KG is put on a good team he wins it all. And does so without great defensive pieces on a team structured around his defensive strengths. Pierce and Ray weren't scoring like they did before or playing their game.

[Teanett]

I read the post before. Harrison said essentially that it was silly to grade KG only on his team losing in the first round without taking teammate quality into it. He mentioned Jordan and Kobe as examples of great players who couldn't advance past the 1st round when their teams were outgunned. You responded by saying that the difference between Jordan/Kobe and KG was that "kobe and jordan both won championships as the main scoring option. kg has not and never will."


well, somebody said he'd pick kg because robinson never showed up in the playoffs. i thought that is a bad point to make, given kg's history of 1st round losses.

and unlike kobe and jordan, kg is not the main scoring option on the c's. this role is split between the big 3.
he was the leading scorer but pierce took more shots than him. there is a big difference to what jordan or kobe meant to their teams (on offense that is).

[Teanett]

So that's a reference to KG's help? So let's look at Robinson's help.

I think David had the better career beause of his help. I think KG does better with Robinson's teams tho. KG was more dominant defensively and would have gotten more out of those SA teams than Robinson. Pop would have had a total lock down team with Garnett like Boston's 08 team with even better defensive pieces with Sean Elliot, Willie Anderson, Avery Johnson, JR Reid. And those guys, minus Reid could hit open shots and slash better than anybody on Minny for years - and he had like 5 or seven years with these guys. He had Dale Ellis and Chuck Person in there as well in the non-Jordan years. So he had some of the best shooters ever on his team with defense and rebounding with Rodman. And he lost to a team that didn't have the same defensive pieces and on offense sported a center opposite David. In his earlier years he had PF Terry Cummings, outstanding PG Rod Strickland, the all around defensive point forward Paul Pressey and pure shooter Trent Tucker.

The later years with Pop he has great defensive pieces with Antonio Daniels, Duncan, Mario Ellie, Terry Porter, Malik Rose, Steven Jackson and Steve Smith for shooting.

So Robinson came into a great organization, had great coaches. and far superior players. With defensive coaches like Larry Brown and Pop. And you are comparing this and all that is above to a 33 year old Sprewell in his last year and a 35 year old Sam Cassell who lost not a step but a limp, A notoriously bad organization and a coach that never won much. The first year KG is put on a good team he wins it all. And does so without great defensive pieces on a team structured around his defensive strengths. Pierce and Ray weren't scoring like they did before or playing their game.

that's a bunch of "ifs", "IMOs" and excuses.
fact is, he never got out of the 1st round before old sam and spree took him under their wings. you can't change that.
we could discuss all day if t-mac would be an all time top 10 player had he signed with the spurs or the lakers or how many championships chris webber would have won if he played with shaq, but it didn't happen.

[XxSMSxX]

that's a bunch of "ifs", "IMOs" and excuses.
fact is, he never got out of the 1st round before old sam and spree took him under their wings. you can't change that.
we could discuss all day if t-mac would be an all time top 10 player had he signed with the spurs or the lakers or how many championships chris webber would have won if he played with shaq, but it didn't happen.

Are you daft? The best team KG ever had was with an old Cassell and a broken down, bat **** crazy Sprewell. And he still took them to the conference finals that year and had Casell not gotten injured that series they most likely would have won or at the very least faired a hell of a lot better. Comparing those Spurs teams to the trash Garnett had in Minny is absolutely retarded :banghead:

[Teanett]

Comparing those Spurs teams to the trash Garnett had in Minny is absolutely retarded :banghead:

if you think willie anderson, sean elliot and j.r. reid are head and shoulders above terrell brandon, wally world, joe smith and tom gugliotta, that's your opinion.

[XxSMSxX]

if you think willie anderson, sean elliot and j.r. reid are head and shoulders above terrell brandon, wally world, joe smith and tom gugliotta, that's your opinion.


I think David had the better career beause of his help. I think KG does better with Robinson's teams tho. KG was more dominant defensively and would have gotten more out of those SA teams than Robinson. Pop would have had a total lock down team with Garnett like Boston's 08 team with even better defensive pieces with Sean Elliot, Willie Anderson, Avery Johnson, JR Reid. And those guys, minus Reid could hit open shots and slash better than anybody on Minny for years - and he had like 5 or seven years with these guys. He had Dale Ellis and Chuck Person in there as well in the non-Jordan years. So he had some of the best shooters ever on his team with defense and rebounding with Rodman. And he lost to a team that didn't have the same defensive pieces and on offense sported a center opposite David. In his earlier years he had PF Terry Cummings, outstanding PG Rod Strickland, the all around defensive point forward Paul Pressey and pure shooter Trent Tucker.

The later years with Pop he has great defensive pieces with Antonio Daniels, Duncan, Mario Ellie, Terry Porter, Malik Rose, Steven Jackson and Steve Smith for shooting.

No but all those guys pointguard mention most DEFINETLY were :hammerhead:

[Teanett]

No but all those guys pointguard mention most DEFINETLY were :hammerhead:

really?
who from the pre duncan spurs (besides rodman, who doesnt give you scoring) is better than tom gugliotta or terrell brandon?

[XxSMSxX]

really?
who from the pre duncan spurs (besides rodman, who doesnt give you scoring) is better than tom gugliotta or terrell brandon?

You mean the same Gugliotta that was there for only 2 of KG's Minny years? The first being his rookie season where he didn't even play that much?

And Rodman didn't score much but he didn't hurt you offensively, he wouldn't make any dumb ass plays that left you scratching your head, hell i'll take Rodman over any of KG's teammates pre Boston.

[crisoner]

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[Teanett]

You mean the same Gugliotta that was there for only 2 of KG's Minny years? The first being his rookie season where he didn't even play that much?

And Rodman didn't score much but he didn't hurt you offensively, he wouldn't make any dumb ass plays that left you scratching your head, hell i'll take Rodman over any of KG's teammates pre Boston.

you're not answering my question.

[ronniec]

I am KG fan, but has to pick Admiral this time

[westsideozzie]

KG was scared to play center and bang with the big boys. End of discussion.

[drza44]

well, somebody said he'd pick kg because robinson never showed up in the playoffs. i thought that is a bad point to make, given kg's history of 1st round losses.

and unlike kobe and jordan, kg is not the main scoring option on the c's. this role is split between the big 3.
he was the leading scorer but pierce took more shots than him. there is a big difference to what jordan or kobe meant to their teams (on offense that is).

Again, re-iterating Harrison's point, you can't just say "1st round losses" without looking at the situation. KG's teams were outgunned. Not a lot to be said about that. But what he INDIVIDUALLY produced was outstanding in those postseasons. Just because 27/16/5/2/2 wasn't enough to beat a prime Shaq/Kobe combo in the first round, you can't very well say that Garnett didn't show up that year.

And again (again), "main scoring option" is a meaningless distinction. Nevertheless, you're still incorrect. Garnett led that '08 championship team in shots taken in both the regular and postseason. Which still is barely relevant, if at all, since he was the best PLAYER on those teams. I could really care less who took the most shots.

[Teanett]

Again, re-iterating Harrison's point, you can't just say "1st round losses" without looking at the situation. KG's teams were outgunned. Not a lot to be said about that. But what he INDIVIDUALLY produced was outstanding in those postseasons. Just because 27/16/5/2/2 wasn't enough to beat a prime Shaq/Kobe combo in the first round, you can't very well say that Garnett didn't show up that year.

And again (again), "main scoring option" is a meaningless distinction. Nevertheless, you're still incorrect. Garnett led that '08 championship team in shots taken in both the regular and postseason. Which still is barely relevant, if at all, since he was the best PLAYER on those teams. I could really care less who took the most shots.

ok, let me try to put this thing straight.
i'm not knocking kg for anything, but saying "i'll take kg over robinson because d-rob didn't show up in the playoffs" is ignorant.
you keep bringing up the lakers or the kings series' when kg was dominating but guess what?
robinson put up comparable playoff numbers basically every pre-duncan year.

btw, i'm not incorrect. factor in fta's and you'll see pierce took more shots.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I like Garnett's leadership over Robinson's despite Robinson having much better success in comparable situations as the man. Honestly speaking I think the difference in their scoring production may have some to do with how the game evolved from the early 90's to where you had multiple high scoring bigs to KG's era where it was much rearer .

Nah, Robinson was just a better scorer. KG had the ability to be a dominant scorer, but that was never his mentality, he was more of a mid-range shooter offensively, or he should that turnaround. Robinson used his quickness to get to the basket a lot more than KG did and got to the line a ton. Robinson wasn't your typical back to the basket center, but he took advantage of his quickness, could hit the mid-range shot, ran the floor exceptionally well and scored on a good amount of alley oops.

As far as era? At 32 years old after his back injury while playing alongside Duncan, Robinson averaged 22/11/3/3 on 51% shooting in 34 mpg in 1998 and at 34, he averaged 18/10/2/2 on 51% shooting in just 32 mpg in 2000 and led the Spurs in scoring in the second half of the season at 21 ppg on 54% shooting.

I think Robinson was a better player and impacted the game more at both ends, but I question his ability to lead a team even more. With that being said, I don't think KG was ever fully comfortable as the go to scorer in the playoffs either, though he did a good job in '04 as well as the Lakers series.

While people recognize KG's defensive contributions to the Celtics, many forget just how good Robinson still was defensively during his first 4 years with Duncan. He was still one of the 5 best defensive players from '98 until 2000 or 2001.


Are you daft? The best team KG ever had was with an old Cassell and a broken down, bat **** crazy Sprewell. And he still took them to the conference finals that year and had Casell not gotten injured that series they most likely would have won or at the very least faired a hell of a lot better. Comparing those Spurs teams to the trash Garnett had in Minny is absolutely retarded :banghead:

Old Cassell? He had a career season in '04 and was on the all-nba second team that year. Sprewell was past his prime, but still solid. Not a historically great cast, but not trash either.

[Teanett]

Nah, Robinson was just a better scorer.

I think Robinson was a better player and impacted the game more at both ends, but I question his ability to lead a team even more. With that being said, I don't think KG was ever fully comfortable as the go to scorer in the playoffs either, though he did a good job in '04 as well as the Lakers series.

While people recognize KG's defensive contributions to the Celtics, many forget just how good Robinson still was defensively during his first 4 years with Duncan. He was still one of the 5 best defensive players from '98 until 2000 or 2001.


who would've thunk i'd ever agree with shakkatakk? i couldn't have said it better and i didnt.
so...:applause:

[drza44]

ok, let me try to put this thing straight.
i'm not knocking kg for anything, but saying "i'll take kg over robinson because d-rob didn't show up in the playoffs" is ignorant.
you keep bringing up the lakers or the kings series' when kg was dominating but guess what?
robinson put up comparable playoff numbers basically every pre-duncan year.

btw, i'm not incorrect. factor in fta's and you'll see pierce took more shots.

I took exception with you saying that KG's never been the main scoring option on a champion, because it's false as well as meaningless. Robinson's playoff numbers weren't something we weer ever discussing. I agree that Robinson was a beast, even though I still prefer KG, but completely separate from Robinson your post about KG was what I was rebutting. You made a silly statement, I called you on it, this should really be over.

And you're. STILL. Wrong. In the playoffs, even with FTs factored in, KG took more shots than Pierce. And scored more. In the regular season Pierce took slightly more because he played more minutes, but per-minute even in the regular season KG still took more shots. And scored more. And who took the most shots STILL doesn't matter. But you know, this discussion isn't really that much fun. If it's just your desire to have the last word on it, be my guest.

[magnax1]

Both are quite under rated on here because of them not winning much, but I'd pretty easily take KG.

[Scholar]

Both guys were great talents. I'd go with DRob, though, because the dude was huge. If he played in his prime in this era, he'd be able to push people around like nothing. He'd definitely be a great asset for any team as a big man.

[Teanett]

I took exception with you saying that KG's never been the main scoring option on a champion, because it's false as well as meaningless.

i never brought up that point.
but you're right, he did shoot more than pierce (my bad) but nowhere near kobe/mj.

[ShaqAttack3234]

i never brought up that point.
but you're right, he did shoot more than pierce (my bad) but nowhere near kobe/mj.

Watching the games, Pierce still seemed like more of the first option offensively to me(KG was the better overall player), or if anything they were 1.A and 1.B offensively.

[westsideozzie]

KG is a bully. He seems to disappear against players who are bigger and stronger than him.

[drza44]

More on-topic, I did a long comp of KG and David Robinson in an old thread from another board. Here are some of the main points:

It's an interesting comparison. There are a lot of similarities between Robinson and Garnett, but the way their careers happened (Robinson the 24 year old rookie out of the Navy vs KG the high school kid) make them somewhat difficult to compare. I do it by breaking both of their careers into 2 parts: the early part with statistical individual dominance but poor supporting casts, and the later part with subsumed stats on a stronger team that won the ring. Also, each of these parts could be separated into regular and post-season.

Prime reg season: If you compare KG’s last 8 years in Minnesota to Robinson’s 8 pre-Duncan, in the box scores Robinson had advantages in scoring (3 more ppg) and blocked shots (2 more bpg) while KG was slightly more active on the glass (1 more rpg) and was a bigger distributor (2 more apg). Robinson's teams played at a faster pace, about 5 extra possessions per game, so keep that in mind as well. In many advanced stats KG measures out as the best regular season player of the 2000s, but Robinson may have been even a bit more impressive in the stats I have access to. Robinson edged him in average PER and average Win Shares, and they virtually tied in Wins Produced.

Team success-wise, Robinson’s teams averaged 55 wins while KG’s peak team were more often in the 50-win range. On the other hand, while neither had great support I think Robinson’s teammates were a bit better year-to-year. First there was Robinson’s Cummings/Elliott/Strickland phase that roughly corresponded to the Brandon/Wally portion of KG’s career. Then, there was the Rodman/Elliott period that corresponded roughly to the ’04 Cassell/Spree season. Then, there was the peak Elliott/Avery Johnson team for DRob vs. 4 coaches and 3 completely different supporting casts in KG’s last 3 Minnesota seasons (culminating in the horror of Mark Blount/Ricky Davis as sidekicks with Randy Wittman as a coach). I think both of them just about maximized the amount of regular season success possible for their given teams.

I say it was a wash and would prefer KG, but I don’t have a problem with anyone giving Robinson the slight advantage in this portion.

Prime Postseason: Robinson made 6 playoffs appearances in 8 years (missed 1 injured), with 4 second round trips and 1 WCF trip. KG’s teams made the playoffs 8 straight years once he became a starter before missing them his last 3 seasons. Comparing the box score stats for KG’s last 6 playoffs appearances vs. Robinson’s 6 appearances, they averaged roughly the same points (24 ppg) and steals. Robinson blocked an additional shot and was a bit more efficient on offense (slightly higher FG percentage, fewer TOs, more FTs drawn). KG dished almost twice as many assists and grabbed an additional two boards. In general Robinson was slightly more efficient, Garnett slightly more productive.

Each had several memorable playoffs performances, with 30/20 games and triple doubles not uncommon. But in the signature playoff matchup of Robinson’s career he clearly came up short man-to-man against his main rival. KG, on the other hand, had by far the best game of his postseason career in the only game 7 of his career (to that point) during his defining season and willed his team to the WCF.

This was another close match-up, but in this case I think KG’s similar measurables in the face of ridiculous ratios of competition vs support give him a bit of an edge, especially when the defining moments are factored in.

Late career: Robinson’s 99 title season vs. KG’s 08 title season. In the regular season their box score stats and PER were again similar, but this time KG was both more productive and more efficient than Robinson on offense. Also, while Robinson was clearly secondary to Duncan on the Spurs, Garnett was the main cog for the Celtics in addition to being the team leader. Robinson was a key player for those Spurs, but KG finished 3rd in the MVP vote and was the Defensive Player of the Year for a team that won with defense. Pretty convincing win for KG here.

In the playoffs the gap got even wider, as Robinson settled more firmly into the second option slot while Garnett led the Celtics in scoring and rebounding in addition to being the defensive anchor. Again, advantage KG.

All told, I think what they accomplished in their primes and just-past-primes were similar but Garnett did just a bit more with what he had. And this is without factoring in longevity, where Garnett's going to be more impressive just by dint of starting 5 years earlier. At the end of the day, though, I think this is KG.

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Tough one....
I'm picking KG because I never actually watched D-Rob play.

[Teanett]

Watching the games, Pierce still seemed like more of the first option offensively to me(KG was the better overall player), or if anything they were 1.A and 1.B offensively.

that's what i'm talking about!
shakkatakk is the greatest poster not named teanett or 97bulls :rockon:

[Teanett]

More on-topic, I did a long comp of KG and David Robinson in an old thread from another board. Here are some of the main points:

It's an interesting comparison. There are a lot of similarities between Robinson and Garnett, but the way their careers happened (Robinson the 24 year old rookie out of the Navy vs KG the high school kid) make them somewhat difficult to compare. I do it by breaking both of their careers into 2 parts: the early part with statistical individual dominance but poor supporting casts, and the later part with subsumed stats on a stronger team that won the ring. Also, each of these parts could be separated into regular and post-season.

Prime reg season: If you compare KG’s last 8 years in Minnesota to Robinson’s 8 pre-Duncan, in the box scores Robinson had advantages in scoring (3 more ppg) and blocked shots (2 more bpg) while KG was slightly more active on the glass (1 more rpg) and was a bigger distributor (2 more apg). Robinson's teams played at a faster pace, about 5 extra possessions per game, so keep that in mind as well. In many advanced stats KG measures out as the best regular season player of the 2000s, but Robinson may have been even a bit more impressive in the stats I have access to. Robinson edged him in average PER and average Win Shares, and they virtually tied in Wins Produced.

Team success-wise, Robinson’s teams averaged 55 wins while KG’s peak team were more often in the 50-win range. On the other hand, while neither had great support I think Robinson’s teammates were a bit better year-to-year. First there was Robinson’s Cummings/Elliott/Strickland phase that roughly corresponded to the Brandon/Wally portion of KG’s career. Then, there was the Rodman/Elliott period that corresponded roughly to the ’04 Cassell/Spree season. Then, there was the peak Elliott/Avery Johnson team for DRob vs. 4 coaches and 3 completely different supporting casts in KG’s last 3 Minnesota seasons (culminating in the horror of Mark Blount/Ricky Davis as sidekicks with Randy Wittman as a coach). I think both of them just about maximized the amount of regular season success possible for their given teams.

I say it was a wash and would prefer KG, but I don’t have a problem with anyone giving Robinson the slight advantage in this portion.

Prime Postseason: Robinson made 6 playoffs appearances in 8 years (missed 1 injured), with 4 second round trips and 1 WCF trip. KG’s teams made the playoffs 8 straight years once he became a starter before missing them his last 3 seasons. Comparing the box score stats for KG’s last 6 playoffs appearances vs. Robinson’s 6 appearances, they averaged roughly the same points (24 ppg) and steals. Robinson blocked an additional shot and was a bit more efficient on offense (slightly higher FG percentage, fewer TOs, more FTs drawn). KG dished almost twice as many assists and grabbed an additional two boards. In general Robinson was slightly more efficient, Garnett slightly more productive.

Each had several memorable playoffs performances, with 30/20 games and triple doubles not uncommon. But in the signature playoff matchup of Robinson’s career he clearly came up short man-to-man against his main rival. KG, on the other hand, had by far the best game of his postseason career in the only game 7 of his career (to that point) during his defining season and willed his team to the WCF.

This was another close match-up, but in this case I think KG’s similar measurables in the face of ridiculous ratios of competition vs support give him a bit of an edge, especially when the defining moments are factored in.

Late career: Robinson’s 99 title season vs. KG’s 08 title season. In the regular season their box score stats and PER were again similar, but this time KG was both more productive and more efficient than Robinson on offense. Also, while Robinson was clearly secondary to Duncan on the Spurs, Garnett was the main cog for the Celtics in addition to being the team leader. Robinson was a key player for those Spurs, but KG finished 3rd in the MVP vote and was the Defensive Player of the Year for a team that won with defense. Pretty convincing win for KG here.

In the playoffs the gap got even wider, as Robinson settled more firmly into the second option slot while Garnett led the Celtics in scoring and rebounding in addition to being the defensive anchor. Again, advantage KG.

All told, I think what they accomplished in their primes and just-past-primes were similar but Garnett did just a bit more with what he had. And this is without factoring in longevity, where Garnett's going to be more impressive just by dint of starting 5 years earlier. At the end of the day, though, I think this is KG.

good post. fair assesment.
i'd take the admiral, but opinions are like assholes... :cheers:

[CarloJ63]

Interesting comparison. On a purely non basketball level, they couldn't be more opposite. David Robinson is class incarnate, while Kevin Garnett is just an asshole.

[magnax1]

Interesting comparison. On a purely non basketball level, they couldn't be more opposite. David Robinson is class incarnate, while Kevin Garnett is just an asshole.
I always thought Robinson seemed super fake. It seemed like everyone who played him completely hated him too. People always get different impressions of this sort of stuff, and I don't really think it's fair to compare what type of human a guy is by what you see on television, especially during a competitive event when the majority of people won't act like their normal selves anyway.
Just saying it's kind of weird to call people you don't know classy and an ass hole.

[Teanett]

it's safe to say that both have an asshole.

[Harison]

Nah, Robinson was just a better scorer. KG had the ability to be a dominant scorer, but that was never his mentality, he was more of a mid-range shooter offensively, or he should that turnaround. Robinson used his quickness to get to the basket a lot more than KG did and got to the line a ton. Robinson wasn't your typical back to the basket center, but he took advantage of his quickness, could hit the mid-range shot, ran the floor exceptionally well and scored on a good amount of alley oops.
Its pretty much true, problem is however, its regular season style at which Robinson excelled. In the playoffs he couldnt (or rather opponents didnt allowed) play the style DRob preferred, hence he tanked more often than not. Garnett like Duncan, elevated his game in the post-season. Its the main distinction why a lot of fans and experts rank the very same Duncan ahead of Robinson, even though judging only by regular season DRob was a better player than TD.



While people recognize KG's defensive contributions to the Celtics, many forget just how good Robinson still was defensively during his first 4 years with Duncan. He was still one of the 5 best defensive players from '98 until 2000 or 2001.
Individually I also have Robinson as a better defender than KG, but as I said in previous posts, KG has a unique quality to be a defensive coach on the floor, making everyone better, communicating and pushing others to overachieve, while being DPOY anchor himself. This unique quality makes average defensive team to one of All-time greats. In contrast Robinson had better defensive pieces, much better coaching, yet his teams are not in the conversation of All-time greats defensively, why? Maybe Robinson's defensive impact isnt greater than KGs after all.



Old Cassell? He had a career season in '04 and was on the all-nba second team that year. Sprewell was past his prime, but still solid. Not a historically great cast, but not trash either.
There is a reason why Cassell got in ASG and in All-NBA (2nd), - its Garnett. Much like Lebron got Mo Williams to ASG. Still 34 years old Cassell was obviously not as good as Sean Elliott, Strickland, Cummings, etc., and dont get me started about Rodman and Duncan, who are in another stratosphere compared to Cas.

[Harison]

I always thought Robinson seemed super fake. It seemed like everyone who played him completely hated him too. People always get different impressions of this sort of stuff, and I don't really think it's fair to compare what type of human a guy is by what you see on television, especially during a competitive event when the majority of people won't act like their normal selves anyway.
Just saying it's kind of weird to call people you don't know classy and an ass hole.
Robinson was all-class all the way, but his problem was he was too fierce about his views, hence he clashed with teammates, namely Rodman. Robinson wasnt fake in any way, he is just like that in real life too, simply he had higher morals than a lot of players.

That said, its part of Robinsons problem, he was too nice, and although he had competitive nature, he didnt had killer instinct like a lot of asshole superstars have.

[Teanett]

Individually I also have Robinson as a better defender than KG, but as I said in previous posts, KG has a unique quality to be a defensive coach on the floor, making everyone better, communicating and pushing others to overachieve, while being DPOY anchor himself. This unique quality makes average defensive team to one of All-time greats. In contrast Robinson had better defensive pieces, much better coaching, yet his teams are not in the conversation of All-time greats defensively, why? Maybe Robinson's defensive impact isnt greater than KGs after all.


There is a reason why Cassell got in ASG and in All-NBA (2nd), - its Garnett. Much like Lebron got Mo Williams to ASG. Still 34 years old Cassell was obviously not as good as Sean Elliott, Strickland, Cummings, etc., and dont get me started about Rodman and Duncan, who are in another stratosphere compared to Cas.

sorry, but that is a load of crap.
kg didnt get nobody to overachieve on his minny teams.
is boston an all-time great defensive team? maybe, but he had rondo, perk, sheed, pj, posey, big baby, tony allen even pierce who are all good defenders
as well as tom thibodeau.

and yes, cassell was as good as elliott, strickland and cummings.
he averaged the almost same points his previous two seasons in milwaukee.

again, no knock on kg but be realistic.

[ImmortalD24]

The correct choice is Kevin Garnett.. Hell, I'd take Garnett over the greatest Spur ever.

[nbacardDOTnet]

Let me school you young folks. The reason people were amazed about Hakeem destroying David Robinson was because up until that point, Robinson routinely outplayed Hakeem. As a matter of fact, Hakeem got better because of David.

Robinson when he was younger was Dwight Howard with a jumpshot. You guys would not remember him beating Syracuse by himself, scoring 50 on Rony S, and Derrick Coleman.

This cat scored 70 points in a game before. He could drive off the dribble like a small forward, and consistently locked down opposing centers. He owned a young Shaq (until Shaq morphed into 375 pounds of muscle).

KG weighed like 225 pounds for most of his career, and Robinson would have owned him if they played against one another and he did. No contest, Big Dave everyday all day on this one..

actually 71 PTs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRB4qIzDXy0

[ShaqAttack3234]

Its pretty much true, problem is however, its regular season style at which Robinson excelled. In the playoffs he couldnt (or rather opponents didnt allowed) play the style DRob preferred, hence he tanked more often than not. Garnett like Duncan, elevated his game in the post-season. Its the main distinction why a lot of fans and experts rank the very same Duncan ahead of Robinson, even though judging only by regular season DRob was a better player than TD.

I agree 100%, I've always said that Robinson's style wasn't ideal for the playoffs. That's why I prefer guys who score more with their back to the basket and have better low post moves.


Individually I also have Robinson as a better defender than KG, but as I said in previous posts, KG has a unique quality to be a defensive coach on the floor, making everyone better, communicating and pushing others to overachieve, while being DPOY anchor himself. This unique quality makes average defensive team to one of All-time greats. In contrast Robinson had better defensive pieces, much better coaching, yet his teams are not in the conversation of All-time greats defensively, why? Maybe Robinson's defensive impact isnt greater than KGs after all.

Well, the '89 Spurs were an average defensive team(13th best out of 25 teams). In Robinson's rookie season the following year, they became the 3rd best defensive team in the league, the following year, they were the best defensive team in the league. Same with 1992 when Robinson missed the final 14 games and in those final 14 games, the Spurs allowed 105.5 ppg on 47% shooting compared to 99.6 ppg on 44.9% shooting in the first 68 games when David played. 47% was right around the league average of 47.2% and 105.5 ppg was right around the league average of 105.3 ppg. So once again, Robinson took an average defensive team and made them elite, best in the league actually.

And the '96 Spurs were the 3rd best defensive team in the league, the following year when Robinson was out for pretty much the entire season, they were the worst in the league.

And while getting an all time great defender like Duncan was a big reason for the Spurs defensive dominance, I've viewed Robinson as pretty much his equal defensively early on. In '98, they had an excellent defensive rating of 99.4(second best in the league), the '99 Spurs were truly dominant defensively, the best defensive team in the league with a defensive rating of 95.0. The 2000 Spurs were second best in the league with a defensive rating of 98.6 and even when Duncan missed 8 games, they held opponents to 90.5 ppg on 44.2% shooting. Granted, it's a decline from the 90.2 ppg on 42.4% shooting that they allowed when Duncan was in the lineup, but it shows that Robinson could still anchor a good defense. And the 2001 Spurs were the best defensive team in the league with a defensive rating of 98.0.

If we're talking about impact on their team's defense? Well, plenty of KG's Wolves teams were mediocre defensively and the worst any of Robinson's teams ranked defensively was 10th.


There is a reason why Cassell got in ASG and in All-NBA (2nd), - its Garnett. Much like Lebron got Mo Williams to ASG. Still 34 years old Cassell was obviously not as good as Sean Elliott, Strickland, Cummings, etc., and dont get me started about Rodman and Duncan, who are in another stratosphere compared to Cas.

Cassell was a good player for years, hell, even 2 years later he made a pretty big impact on that Clipper team that got to the 2nd round.

And if you're bringing up Duncan then how about KG's teammates since he's been in Boston?

[magnax1]

Robinson was all-class all the way, but his problem was he was too fierce about his views, hence he clashed with teammates, namely Rodman. Robinson wasnt fake in any way, he is just like that in real life too, simply he had higher morals than a lot of players.

That said, its part of Robinsons problem, he was too nice, and although he had competitive nature, he didnt had killer instinct like a lot of asshole superstars have.
I was more complaining about people talking about acting like they know these guys. I don't know if Robinson was all class, I don't know the guys. I doubt you do either.

[Pointguard]

if you think willie anderson, sean elliot and j.r. reid are head and shoulders above terrell brandon, wally world, joe smith and tom gugliotta, that's your opinion.

The Frontcourt
Joe Smith is a significant drop off from Antoine Carr who had equal offensive numbers and a far bigger presence underneath the rim and on defense. Both only did two years but Carr is a lot better on both sides of the ball. Throw in Rodman vs. Gugs and we have a heads and shoulder situation there at the center powerforward situation.

Wings:
Sean Elliot against Wally. Offensively they are close: Sean the better defender, penetrater, athlete, versatility, team player. Wally a better shooter. Defensively not in the same league. Willie Anderson, Dale Ellis, Chuck Person, Vernon Maxwell, Paul Pressey vs Sam Mitchell, Anthony Peeler and Malik Seally. Sorry, this is head and shoulders thing again. But please, feel free to argue your moot point again.

Pointguards:
Brandon vs Rod Strickland This one is close but I will give the edge to Brandon. Strickland was a better passer and set up man. Brandon a better scorer and a serious player. However, Avery Johnson makes this one a head and shoulders situation.

Not only were the Spur teams better constructed, they also better defensively, despite having more offensive talent as well. The players you mentioned J Smith, Gugs and Brandon stayed for only like two years and were around in part when KG

[Artillery]

I was more complaining about people talking about acting like they know these guys. I don't know if Robinson was all class, I don't know the guys. I doubt you do either.

On that note, I hated how the recent Bird/Magic documentary tried to portray Magic as this humble/ultra-classy guy. Seemed totally fake to me. At least Bird never pretended to be anything but arrogant.

[Pointguard]

I agree 100%, I've always said that Robinson's style wasn't ideal for the playoffs. That's why I prefer guys who score more with their back to the basket and have better low post moves.



Well, the '89 Spurs were an average defensive team(13th best out of 25 teams). In Robinson's rookie season the following year, they became the 3rd best defensive team in the league, the following year, they were the best defensive team in the league. Same with 1992 when Robinson missed the final 14 games and in those final 14 games, the Spurs allowed 105.5 ppg on 47% shooting compared to 99.6 ppg on 44.9% shooting in the first 68 games when David played. 47% was right around the league average of 47.2% and 105.5 ppg was right around the league average of 105.3 ppg. So once again, Robinson took an average defensive team and made them elite, best in the league actually.

And the '96 Spurs were the 3rd best defensive team in the league, the following year when Robinson was out for pretty much the entire season, they were the worst in the league.

And while getting an all time great defender like Duncan was a big reason for the Spurs defensive dominance, I've viewed Robinson as pretty much his equal defensively early on. In '98, they had an excellent defensive rating of 99.4(second best in the league), the '99 Spurs were truly dominant defensively, the best defensive team in the league with a defensive rating of 95.0. The 2000 Spurs were second best in the league with a defensive rating of 98.6 and even when Duncan missed 8 games, they held opponents to 90.5 ppg on 44.2% shooting. Granted, it's a decline from the 90.2 ppg on 42.4% shooting that they allowed when Duncan was in the lineup, but it shows that Robinson could still anchor a good defense. And the 2001 Spurs were the best defensive team in the league with a defensive rating of 98.0.

If we're talking about impact on their team's defense? Well, plenty of KG's Wolves teams were mediocre defensively and the worst any of Robinson's teams ranked defensively was 10th.

SA has a great ogranization with a great coach. They were on the same page and constructed a defensive team with superb defensive players at every position. Avery, Duncan, Robinson, Eliot, Elie, Malik Rose, Antonio Daniels the first time with Duncan, Robinson, Bowen, Rose, Gin and Stephen Jackson the second time. Neither one of those teams were like the 08 Celtics defensively which did not have the defensive pieces that either of those SA teams had. KG was the only one with a defensive reputation. Posey who came off the bench was the only one that was known for defense. And yeah, oh yeah, KG was behind it. What gives?

On the Minny team defense reference you made - Do you really think KG was supposed to tell the coach to have defensive schemes and and GM to get guys that could actually defend?

[Dave_520]

Thats half-truth. Its true DRob played in the golden age with stacked Top talent, but its also true KG faced vastly better teams in the Playoffs during Minny career. Also Admiral had better teammates, in later part of his career he even had freaking Duncan, not much to cry about. So in the end your argument doesnt work, in THIS case.

I'm not sure I agree with that. I would have to look at all the playoff teams both teams faced and compare them. Spurs lost to the eventual champs, and the Western Conference Representatives plenty of times in the playoffs, so I would consider those teams excellent competition. But again I would have to face to face compare them both. Also, the center position is a bit of an island position that it doesn't have the flexibility of other positions, and during his tenure, Robinson played in the golden age of centers, and won MVP and was considered top 3 at his position for many years. But playoffs do hurt him a bit, although not as much as you put it, IMO.



Spurs wouldnt have won 56-62 games per year in the Golden age with a crappy team, when Champions won as many if not less games, like Rockets with 47. So lets not throw teammates under bus when Robinson folded in the Playoffs himself. If he would have kept his Regular season averages (or even elevated his game, like most other superstars do), Spurs would have been perennial contender, winning multiple rings before TD even arrives.

The golden age of centers and golden age of basketball are two separate things...Basketball was fairly weak during the mid nineties minus the center position. Sean Elliot was good, but not perennial all-star good.




I would agree DRob was a better defender than either KG or Timmy, almost on Hakeem level. He wasnt quarterback of the defense like KG is though, that makes their impact somewhat comparable, but I would still give Robinson an edge in D.

Thats fair.



In the regular season yes, in playoffs no. KG elevated his games in the post-season, DRob crashed. Plus offense includes court vision and passing, and KG is much better at it than Admiral.

KG only elevated his game fairly recently, and by then was a 2nd or 3rd option, much like Robinson was on the 99-03 campaigns. Robinson was never a very vocal leader, so it was hard to compare their leadership qualities because KG is so overwhelmingly vocal, it can be confused for good leadership.

[Harison]

@ShaqAttack3234

About defense - no question Spurs were very good defensively, just not All-time great. Instead of making a long post, will go straight to the point - answer simple question - why '08 Celtics with WORSE defensive pieces outside KG, WORSE coach, are ranked higher defensively All-time than Robinson's Spurs teams? There are excellent defenders on their own right, like Robinson, Rodman, etc., but they dont run team defense like KG or Russell do. Sometimes sum of certain players gives more than you would get separately.



If we're talking about impact on their team's defense? Well, plenty of KG's Wolves teams were mediocre defensively and the worst any of Robinson's teams ranked defensively was 10th.
One person cannot provide all team defense, Robinson never played with crap like Wolves. Hence one elite anchor from the worst team in the NBA can make average one. Or make elite D from average defensively (w/o KG) team like Celtics.

You could check advanced stats about players impact on the team, KG in 2000's had by FAR biggest impact on his team, even compared to prime Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, etc. Wolves were that bad, KG had to do everything himself.



Cassell was a good player for years, hell, even 2 years later he made a pretty big impact on that Clipper team that got to the 2nd round.

And if you're bringing up Duncan then how about KG's teammates since he's been in Boston?
I'm not saying Cassell is a bad player - he is good, simply he wouldnt have been in ASG if not KG, nor he was as good as pretty much 2nd-5th options on those Spurs.

About your question, I'm sorry, but who is on Celtics outside KG is as good as Duncan or even Rodman? No one. Even aging Robinson was better for 3 seasons than anyone KG played with.

[SinJackal]

About defense - no question Spurs were very good defensively, just not All-time great.

I hope you realize the Spurs hold the record for the top two best defensive ratings of all time for a season. I would say having the top two best defenses ever makes them all time great. There is no other requirement than being the best. And they did it twice.

[Pointguard]

I hope you realize the Spurs hold the record for the top two best defensive ratings of all time for a season. I would say having the top two best defenses ever makes them all time great. There is no other requirement than being the best. And they did it twice.

The ratings one thing the reality another. The two best defensive teams as of late are generally considered to be Boston of 08 and the Piston's team of 04.

[Harison]

I'm not sure I agree with that. I would have to look at all the playoff teams both teams faced and compare them. Spurs lost to the eventual champs, and the Western Conference Representatives plenty of times in the playoffs, so I would consider those teams excellent competition. But again I would have to face to face compare them both. Also, the center position is a bit of an island position that it doesn't have the flexibility of other positions, and during his tenure, Robinson played in the golden age of centers, and won MVP and was considered top 3 at his position for many years. But playoffs do hurt him a bit, although not as much as you put it, IMO.
Lets put in this way - Robinson Spurs often lost to similar level or even weaker teams. Lets take '94-95, Robinson was considered the best player in the NBA, his 62 win team was MUCH better than 47 wins Rockets. Yet Spurs lost, need I go on?

Now lets take Wolves, which team was weaker than them in the Playoffs, or even similar level? Maybe Nuggets, who lost 4-1. When Kings lost to Wolves, it was an upset. When KG brought prime Shaq and Kobe to the limit, it would have been huge upset if they lost.

Robinson never faced such uphill battles, Spurs were well managed.



The golden age of centers and golden age of basketball are two separate things...Basketball was fairly weak during the mid nineties minus the center position. Sean Elliot was good, but not perennial all-star good.
Still Elliot was better than anyone KG had on Wolves. So was Rodman.



KG only elevated his game fairly recently, and by then was a 2nd or 3rd option, much like Robinson was on the 99-03 campaigns. Robinson was never a very vocal leader, so it was hard to compare their leadership qualities because KG is so overwhelmingly vocal, it can be confused for good leadership.
Did you missed Garnett's 27/15.7/5.2, 24.0/18.7/5.0, 24.3/14.6/5.1, etc? Even when he came to Celtics post-prime, still he was a clear best player on the team, not 2nd or 3rd option.

[ShaqAttack3234]

@ShaqAttack3234

About defense - no question Spurs were very good defensively, just not All-time great. Instead of making a long post, will go straight to the point - answer simple question - why '08 Celtics with WORSE defensive pieces outside KG, WORSE coach, are ranked higher defensively All-time than Robinson's Spurs teams? There are excellent defenders on their own right, like Robinson, Rodman, etc., but they dont run team defense like KG or Russell do. Sometimes sum of certain players gives more than you would get separately.

I think Thibodeau had a lot to do with that. Every team that he's been an assistant on has been great defensively, Van Gundy's Knicks and Rockets, Doc's Celtics and now as a head coach, his Bulls are the 2nd best defensive team in the league.

I disagree with your assessment of Robinson's defense, I think having such a great shot blocker who was so mobile defensively really anchored that defense.


One person cannot provide all team defense, Robinson never played with crap like Wolves. Hence one elite anchor from the worst team in the NBA can make average one. Or make elite D from average defensively (w/o KG) team like Celtics.

Dwight Howard has done it with Orlando and I don't consider him quite as good defensively as Robinson.


You could check advanced stats about players impact on the team, KG in 2000's had by FAR biggest impact on his team, even compared to prime Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, etc. Wolves were that bad, KG had to do everything himself.

Advanced stats like that aren't available from before 2003, but you're right, in 2003 and later his impact was huge.


I'm not saying Cassell is a bad player - he is good, simply he wouldnt have been in ASG if not KG, nor he was as good as pretty much 2nd-5th options on those Spurs.

I think he was as good or better than any single teammate Robinson had pre-Duncan with the exception of maybe Terry Cummings in '90.


About your question, I'm sorry, but who is on Celtics outside KG is as good as Duncan or even Rodman? No one. Even aging Robinson was better for 3 seasons than anyone KG played with.

Once again, I think Thibodeau had a lot to do with it.

[Alamo]

David Robinson mainly because I'd rather have a good center than a good forward for some reason. And because he got a quadruple double

[Harison]

I think Thibodeau had a lot to do with that. Every team that he's been an assistant on has been great defensively, Van Gundy's Knicks and Rockets, Doc's Celtics and now as a head coach, his Bulls are the 2nd best defensive team in the league.

I heard this argument before, or some others say Perkins is real anchor of Celtics defense, but when KG was injured in '09, do you remember how average Celtics defense was? Thib is gone, Perkins is gone (not like he played much this year anyway), where is Celtics defensively? On the Top.

We can talk about Bulls too, how they have good defensive pieces as well, and how Thib is a better coach than del Negro, yet fact remains Celtics are elite defensively foremost because of KG, Thib and Perkins impact is much smaller, actually, they have nothing to do with it anymore.



I disagree with your assessment of Robinson's defense, I think having such a great shot blocker who was so mobile defensively really anchored that defense.
Common sense, if DRob with a much better coach and better defensive pieces couldnt make better defense than '08 Celtics, then... You fill the blanks :cheers:



I think he was as good or better than any single teammate Robinson had pre-Duncan with the exception of maybe Terry Cummings in '90.
I dont know how about you, but I would take Rodman, Eliot, Cummings, etc. over Cassell, easily.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I heard this argument before, or some others say Perkins is real anchor of Celtics defense, but when KG was injured in '09, do you remember how average Celtics defense was? Thib is gone, Perkins is gone (not like he played much this year anyway), where is Celtics defensively? On the Top.

I'm not saying Garnett didn't anchor their defense or that they were as good without him, but neither were Robinson's Spurs. I'm just pointing out that Thibodeau may have had a lot to do with it too.


We can talk about Bulls too, how they have good defensive pieces as well, and how Thib is a better coach than del Negro, yet fact remains Celtics are elite defensively foremost because of KG, Thib and Perkins impact is much smaller, actually, they have nothing to do with it anymore.

My response above pretty much applies.



Common sense, if DRob with a much better coach and better defensive pieces couldnt make better defense than '08 Celtics, then... You fill the blanks :cheers:

'99 Spurs.....

[Harison]

I'm not saying Garnett didn't anchor their defense or that they were as good without him, but neither were Robinson's Spurs. I'm just pointing out that Thibodeau may have had a lot to do with it too.
If Thib would have a lot to do with Celtics defense, they wouldnt be elite anymore. They havent lost a step, or more accurately, they lost a bit, and again its because KG had injury and isnt getting any younger. Thib absence isnt felt in any shape or form. Yet when KG was gone, so was Cs defense.



'99 Spurs.....
In All-time list '99 Spurs isnt ranked higher than '08 Celtics, but we are comparing TWO All-time great defenders and amazing coach vs ONE All-time great defender with ok coach, and yet you say Robinson and Duncan are better defensively than KG, each. Interesting.

Lets get back to One vs One comparison, I would hate if you would have to resort to Two vs One to make things more equal :D

Which Robinson led team had better defense than '08 Celtics? None. Yet once again - he had better defensive pieces and better coaching, how again DRob had bigger defensive impact?

[Round Mound]

Somebody check out D-Robs Defensive Rating in the Season and Play-Offs

He was the Best Total Defender of the 90s Rim Protecting Wise and almost in Hakeem`s way a great agil stealer

[ShaqAttack3234]

If Thib would have a lot to do with Celtics defense, they wouldnt be elite anymore. They havent lost a step, or more accurately, they lost a bit, and again its because KG had injury and isnt getting any younger. Thib absence isnt felt in any shape or form. Yet when KG was gone, so was Cs defense.

I doubt they forgot what Thibodeau taught them defensively. Look at what happened when Robinson was out for the '97 season or when he went down at the end of '92. You're acting like I said KG doesn't impact a defense. Of course he does, and I'd expect them to suffer defensively without him, and Robinson's teams did as well.


In All-time list '99 Spurs isnt ranked higher than '08 Celtics, but we are comparing TWO All-time great defenders and amazing coach vs ONE All-time great defender with ok coach, and yet you say Robinson and Duncan are better defensively than KG, each. Interesting.

Duncan and Robinson were never on mediocre defensive teams, hell, their teams were never less than top 10. I don't care who you put around them, I doubt they'd ever be on a poor defensive team.


Which Robinson led team had better defense than '08 Celtics? None. Yet once again - he had better defensive pieces and better coaching, how again DRob had bigger defensive impact?

You act like he had lockdown defenders. The '90-'92 teams that were ranked 3rd in '90 and first in '91 and '92 weren't stacked with great defenders. And I already showed how much he improved their defense as a rookie, and then how much they fell off when he went down late in '92 and then once again in '97 when he missed the year and they went from the 3rd best defense to the worst.

[Pointguard]

I do want to put out there that Sam Cassell the first year was very good. But his injury before he could finish anything really hurt the team. The second year and his last year with Minny he was not in the league of Rod Strickland and wasn't as good as Avery Johnson in most years. He missed a lot of games couldn't go over picks and trailed KG in assist. Nor could he handle quick point guards. And Sprewell who helped out the previous year with some guards, could no longer take the cover as they were 35 and 34 years old.

[Round Mound]

D-Robinson was infact the Best Defensive Player of the 90s


Defensive Rating

1989-90 NBA 96.8 (2)
1990-91 NBA 95.9 (2)
1991-92 NBA 94.4 (1)
1992-93 NBA 99.9 (6)
1993-94 NBA 98.0 (8)
1994-95 NBA 98.6 (3)
1995-96 NBA 96.5 (1)
1997-98 NBA 93.6 (1)
1998-99 NBA 87.9 (1)
1999-00 NBA 92.2 (1)
2000-01 NBA 92.1 (2)
2001-02 NBA 94.9 (2)
2002-03 NBA 94.9 (3)
Career NBA 95.6 (6)

In the Play-Offs = 5 Times Leader in DRT and Top 3-5 all of his play-off career

Also one of the Best Offensive Players untill he got hurt in 1995-96

Offensive Rating

1993-94 NBA 119.2 (6)
1994-95 NBA 119.9 (10)
Career NBA 116.3 (30)
Career 116.3 (28)

[ShaqAttack3234]

I do want to put out there that Sam Cassell the first year was very good. But his injury before he could finish anything really hurt the team. The second year and his last year with Minny he was not in the league of Rod Strickland and wasn't as good as Avery Johnson in most years. He missed a lot of games couldn't go over picks and trailed KG in assist. Nor could he handle quick point guards. And Sprewell who helped out the previous year with some guards, could no longer take the cover as they were 35 and 34 years old.

Yeah, I was referring to the '04 Wolves. And I'm definitely not saying he should have been expected to win in '04 or anything, KG had a phenomenal season, he was the best player in the league that year and he had to do everything when Cassell went down, and when Cassell went down, he just didn't have enough help to win a title, which is a shame because it would have been fitting for him to win a title that season.

But prior to Cassell's injury in 2004, he had a good cast.

[rmt]

Robinson was basically Garnett on steroids.

I agree with this. Big and strong enough to guard centers, athletic and mobile enough for PFs. If I were building a franchise, I'd prefer DRob who could guard some one like Shaq and at the same time moved like a gazelle (could guard PFs like Garnett).


Its very close, but the citizenship award gives KG the edge for me.

You do know that the NBA renamed its Community Assist Award - David Robinson Plaque.

[magnax1]

Yeah, I was referring to the '04 Wolves. And I'm definitely not saying he should have been expected to win in '04 or anything, KG had a phenomenal season, he was the best player in the league that year and he had to do everything when Cassell went down, and when Cassell went down, he just didn't have enough help to win a title, which is a shame because it would have been fitting for him to win a title that season.

But prior to Cassell's injury in 2004, he had a good cast.
Not really at all. His best player was Wally or Terrell Brandon, depending on the season, who were 17 ppg scorers who were both piss poor on defense. Beyond that he had basically no one. That's pretty much the definition of a poor team. Look at his 03 team. The third best player was Rasho Nesterovic
:lol

[ShaqAttack3234]

Not really at all. His best player was Wally or Terrell Brandon, depending on the season, who were 17 ppg scorers who were both piss poor on defense. Beyond that he had basically no one. That's pretty much the definition of a poor team. Look at his 03 team. The third best player was Rasho Nesterovic
:lol

I was talking about 2004, I meant he had a good cast that year before Cassell's injury.

[magnax1]

I was talking about 2004, I meant he had a good cast that year before Cassell's injury.
Oh, I thought you said he had a good cast pre-04. My bad
:lol

[M.Bustly15A5RU8]

I agree with this. Big and strong enough to guard centers, athletic and mobile enough for PFs. If I were building a franchise, I'd prefer DRob who could guard some one like Shaq

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=robinda01

[ThaRegul8r]

SA has a great ogranization with a great coach. They were on the same page and constructed a defensive team with superb defensive players at every position. Avery, Duncan, Robinson, Eliot, Elie, Malik Rose, Antonio Daniels the first time with Duncan, Robinson, Bowen, Rose, Gin and Stephen Jackson the second time. Neither one of those teams were like the 08 Celtics defensively which did not have the defensive pieces that either of those SA teams had.



About defense - no question Spurs were very good defensively, just not All-time great.

All-Time Defensive Efficiency Leaders, Relative to League*
TEAM YEAR DEF. EFF. LEAGUE AVG. DIFFERENTIAL
San Antonio 2003-04 92.31 100.84 -8.53
New York 1992-93 96.77 105.07 -8.20
Boston 2007-08 96.16 104.14 -7.98
New York 1993-94 95.85 103.72 -7.83
San Antonio 2004-05 95.80 103.09 -7.29
*Since league began tracking turnovers in 1973-74

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/trainingcamp08/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=CelticsForecast0809

[georgie3ea]

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[westsideozzie]

David Robinson won a title with Avery Johnson at pg. Game set Match.

[Bernie Nips]

All-Time Defensive Efficiency Leaders, Relative to League*
TEAM YEAR DEF. EFF. LEAGUE AVG. DIFFERENTIAL
San Antonio 2003-04 92.31 100.84 -8.53
New York 1992-93 96.77 105.07 -8.20
Boston 2007-08 96.16 104.14 -7.98
New York 1993-94 95.85 103.72 -7.83
San Antonio 2004-05 95.80 103.09 -7.29
*Since league began tracking turnovers in 1973-74

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/trainingcamp08/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=CelticsForecast0809

David Robinson stats in 2003-04 and 2004-05:

0/0/0/0/0 in 0mpg on 0% shooting...

So what does the Spurs defensive rating THE YEAR AFTER HE RETIRED have to do with his defense?

[Pointguard]

Duncan and Robinson were never on mediocre defensive teams, hell, their teams were never less than top 10. I don't care who you put around them, I doubt they'd ever be on a poor defensive team.

Myself and Harison made some of these points but I will take it another step further.

It

[SinJackal]

The ratings one thing the reality another. The two best defensive teams as of late are generally considered to be Boston of 08 and the Piston's team of 04.

Sure, by people who don't look at the stats and just say "they looked like the best when I watched the game".

In the end, the Spurs have held teams to the lowest points per possesion, AND severely limited the possessions they got too.

'08 Celtics were not even close to the '04 Pistons. '04 Pistons are the 3rd best defensive team statistically. '04 Spurs and '99 Spurs were both better than those Pistons. '04 Spurs in particular hold the record for biggest gap between team defense and league average, as well as best team defense period of all time. The Pistons ONLY get more props for their defense because they won the title that year. Same deal with '08 Celtics. Had those teams not won the title in those respective years, nobody would say that shit.

It's more Lakers overrating phenomena. Any team that beats LA must be an all time great. And are always given huge props. Realistically, the '08 Celtics were nothing special when compared to many teams from post-Jordan retirement to 2004 rule changes. '08 Celtics were good compared to league average that year, but not when compared to teams who could handcheck. Had the Celtics not won the title, I doubt much would be said about their D' now.

'04 Pistons weren't even the best defensive team in the league that year. It was SA. Had SA beat the Lakers, then faced and beat the Pistons in the finals (like the did the following year), I guarantee you nobody would be saying shit about the Pistons' D now. They would be talking about SA.

[SinJackal]

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Myself and Harison made some of these points but I will take it another step further.

It

[Pointguard]

All-Time Defensive Efficiency Leaders, Relative to League*
TEAM YEAR DEF. EFF. LEAGUE AVG. DIFFERENTIAL
San Antonio 2003-04 92.31 100.84 -8.53
New York 1992-93 96.77 105.07 -8.20
Boston 2007-08 96.16 104.14 -7.98
New York 1993-94 95.85 103.72 -7.83
San Antonio 2004-05 95.80 103.09 -7.29
*Since league began tracking turnovers in 1973-74

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/trainingcamp08/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=CelticsForecast0809

Wow, a stat. You kind of missed the boat with the post Robison references. Even then, '04 San Antonio team as the best ever? Naaaaaah, you could see that one with your eyes. Stat doesn't take into account Doc's emphasis on resting starters during their many, many blowouts.

[Pointguard]

Sure, by people who don't look at the stats and just say "they looked like the best when I watched the game".

In the end, the Spurs have held teams to the lowest points per possesion, AND severely limited the possessions they got too.

'08 Celtics were not even close to the '04 Pistons. '04 Pistons are the 3rd best defensive team statistically. '04 Spurs and '99 Spurs were both better than those Pistons. '04 Spurs in particular hold the record for biggest gap between team defense and league average, as well as best team defense period of all time. The Pistons ONLY get more props for their defense because they won the title that year. Same deal with '08 Celtics. Had those teams not won the title in those respective years, nobody would say that shit.

It's more Lakers overrating phenomena. Any team that beats LA must be an all time great. And are always given huge props. Realistically, the '08 Celtics were nothing special when compared to many teams from post-Jordan retirement to 2004 rule changes. '08 Celtics were good compared to league average that year, but not when compared to teams who could handcheck. Had the Celtics not won the title, I doubt much would be said about their D' now.

'04 Pistons weren't even the best defensive team in the league that year. It was SA. Had SA beat the Lakers, then faced and beat the Pistons in the finals (like the did the following year), I guarantee you nobody would be saying shit about the Pistons' D now. They would be talking about SA.
Once again, the stat doesn't take into account Doc's priorities as mentioned above. The Lakers do factor in a way. I know Kobe, one of the best offensive players of this era acted like he never saw a defense like Detroit and Boston's. The SA defense never seemed to phase him much or at least to that extent.

[Pointguard]

That's a pretty bad point. Look at Duncan in 2004. What great defenders were helping him lock down the paint? Rasho Nesterovic was their starting center for the whole season. The guy was slow as hell. Who else? Malik Rose? A 6'7' fat guy. Horry, an undersized PF, and Hedo Turkoglu, an average at best defender.

Duncan's Spurs' in 2004 have the best defensive rating of all time. It blows away anything KG ever did, including 2008 Celtics.

How did you miss Bowen who was in DPOY convos and Gin??? And you are comparing them to Pierce and Allen?

When SA went to the bench they actually boosted their little defensive rating score because these guys were all defensive minded: Charlie Ward was one of the best PG defenders. Ron Mercer was definitely above average defender. Kevin Willis while old was still gritty and one of the best defensive bench centers around. Malik Rose was still a superb defender when he came to my Knicks two years after this - at this time in his career he was making clutch defensive stops for SA. Anthony Carter was also tough. Had the Celtics had this loaded of bench defensively the rating would be a joke. But this is the reason people don't talk about this team as being one of the greats: The bench was like a stat stuffer. And Bowen, arguably, was the main defensive guy on that team.

Once again tho, this conversation has nothing to do with Robinson.

[jlauber]

I wonder how many rings KG would have had had he had the good fortune to play with a roster like the Celtics his entire career? I would have to believe that it would have been more than one.

[TheJester21]

There was a thread on ISH earlier debating on whenever KG could win as much rings as Duncan if they have interchanged spots, KG on the Spurs, and Duncan on the Wolves...

The argument for Duncan was that it was his interior defense that made him so special, especially in the 2003 run. This was true. The argument for Garnett was... simply surround hm with a winning organization/management and greater teammates (Drob, Spurs) and he would most definitely win rings. He wasn't the as good as Drob or Duncan at defending the rim, but he was the best at commanding the defense and forcing the opposing offense to run into brick walls... guys like Kendrick, Big Baby, and now Shaq. (I believe Duncan excelled at this as well.)

It's really close for me. From what I've seen, Garnett is the better passer and leader, and after watching him play in the Suns game last night... The guy still has about 4 good years left in him. He played great. Funny how I thought his game had about 90% deteriorated last year while Duncan still looked okay( I had underestimated the toll KG's knee injury took and how it had completely affected his overall performance in the playoffs in 2010) and now hes looking great. Much similar to his 2008 form, though not that good... and now Duncan is the one showing his age! Strange, most guys that come straight out of high school - their knees don't usually last that long. I guess I was wrong about KG.

I can say now this with a lot of confidence... Celtics would've won the finals easily against the Lakers with a 100% healthy KG, Forget the whole "They would've won with Perk in game 7," because it's really a silly arbitrary argument considering Rasheed Wallace stepped up huge that game. I know, they got killed on the glass, but If the Cs had the KG like the one were seeing play right now, they get a ring after that game, no questions about it in my book. And who knows. We could of been looking at a Celtics 4 year dynasty if he hadn't got injured in the first place in their 2009 run.

So very much like Duncan.. .and Robinson... KG + Good team = Major postseason success. So yeah. Put KG on a good team and he does get you rings. I'm sure on that. It's a sad harsh truth but, KG's loyalty hurt him big time. Sad to see a person with so much potential squander off his prime years in a place that was worse then Lebron's Cleveland team. :facepalm

Celtics and Spurs in the Finals. Please... happen... :bowdown:

[drza44]

There was a thread on ISH earlier debating on whenever KG could win as much rings as Duncan if they have interchanged spots, KG on the Spurs, and Duncan on the Wolves...

The argument for Duncan was that it was his interior defense that made him so special, especially in the 2003 run. This was true. The argument for Garnett was... simply surround hm with a winning organization/management and greater teammates (Drob, Spurs) and he would most definitely win rings. He wasn't the as good as Drob or Duncan at defending the rim, but he was the best at commanding the defense and forcing the opposing offense to run into brick walls... guys like Kendrick, Big Baby, and now Shaq. (I believe Duncan excelled at this as well.)

It's really close for me. From what I've seen, Garnett is the better passer and leader, and after watching him play in the Suns game last night... The guy still has about 4 good years left in him. He played great. Funny how I thought his game had about 90% deteriorated last year while Duncan still looked okay( I had underestimated the toll KG's knee injury took and how it had completely affected his overall performance in the playoffs in 2010) and now hes looking great. Much similar to his 2008 form, though not that good... and now Duncan is the one showing his age! Strange, most guys that come straight out of high school - their knees don't usually last that long. I guess I was wrong about KG.

I can say now this with a lot of confidence... Celtics would've won the finals easily against the Lakers with a 100% healthy KG, Forget the whole "They would've won with Perk in game 7," because it's really a silly arbitrary argument considering Rasheed Wallace stepped up huge that game. I know, they got killed on the glass, but If the Cs had the KG like the one were seeing play right now, they get a ring after that game, no questions about it in my book. And who knows. We could of been looking at a Celtics 4 year dynasty if he hadn't got injured in the first place in their 2009 run.

So very much like Duncan.. .and Robinson... KG + Good team = Major postseason success. So yeah. Put KG on a good team and he does get you rings. I'm sure on that. It's a sad harsh truth but, KG's loyalty hurt him big time. Sad to see a person with so much potential squander off his prime years in a place that was worse then Lebron's Cleveland team. :facepalm

Celtics and Spurs in the Finals. Please... happen... :bowdown:

Best post I've seen in this thread. Including and especially the last line...PLEASE HAPPEN!

[az00m]

KG doesn't even come close to David Robinson or Tim duncan. They were both better defensively and offensively.

The only thing KG has them on is his "Mental" state

[rmt]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=robinda01

So, are you saying that KG could guard Shaq better than DRob? OP's question was who would you rather have on your team. I personally prefer the versatility of DRob to guard the bigger centers.

We all know the unstoppable/dominant player that Shaq was in his prime so please don't pretend that there were many players around who could do a better job guarding Shaq - certainly not KG.


The Lakers do factor in a way. I know Kobe, one of the best offensive players of this era acted like he never saw a defense like Detroit and Boston's. The SA defense never seemed to phase him much or at least to that extent.

Spurs swept Kobe and Shaq in 99 and beat the 3-time defending champions in 03. Spurs also beat the vaunted Detroit team in 05 - something the Lakers failed to do in 04.

[veilside23]

I hate to say this but why would kg guard shaq robinson is a center kg never played center he can play but not to the extent of guarding bigger guys . he is not build for that but nothing to take away from Kg. he can do alot of things that most big guys cant even think of doing.

Kg overrated? if only kg had been with a better organization and a true coach. i bet duncan wont get the 4 rings. he might still but am pretty sure garnett is right up there.

Its sad i mean drob is great but he isnt the 2nd best center of all time he isnt in top 5. on kg we can actually make an argument of being the best PF of all time. something that can not be said to drob. i know the competition is tougher but its unfair for kg to be compared to drob which is a true center.

[veilside23]

Shaq gave people alot of problems so please dont put that argument that drob can guard shaq better than kg. once shaq gets inside your dead. so please set that aside. Kg's only real competition is tim duncan. just take alook on how kg has been guarding the like's of stoudamire boozer bosh at his age kg is still doing pretty darn good.

you make it sound like kg's defense is crap .. really .. kg is one of the few guys that can guard 5 posts. can duncan and drob do that?

[veilside23]

David Robinson won a title with Avery Johnson at pg. Game set Match.


we also had tim duncan with him the greatest spur ever...

what a way to make an argument :facepalm

[veilside23]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=garneke01&p2=robinda01

only thing thats better for drob .3 reb and .4 blocks ... everything else kg

[Artillery]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=garneke01&p2=robinda01

only thing thats better for drob .3 reb and .4 blocks ... everything else kg

Retarded. Notice how pre-injury Robinson dominates the shit out of KG up until '99. So basically, Prime DRoB owns a young KG while prime KG owns an over-the-hill DRob. Tale about useless posts.

Even then, I'd still take DRob's line over KG's. Better FG%, and two less points in four less minutes of playing time.

[twintowers]

Prime David Robinson OWNS prime Kevin Garnett...OWNS....

[Jacks3]

compared to admiral, kg is a legendary playoff performer...
hahahaha:roll:
KG's playoff numbers are deflated by the fact that he had so many 1st-round exits because he had a crappy supporting cast AND many of his post-season numbers have come in his past-prime stage (08-11).

In his prime when he had a competent supporting cast...

03: 24/15/5/2. :bowdown:

[Bogus_Sting]

David Robinson vs Kevin Garnett?

IMHO; the two most overrated players of all time.