The Greatest Rebounder

[jlauber]

Ok, maybe this topic has been covered before, but who was/is the NBA's greatest rebounder???

Game, season, post-season, career...anyway you want to slice it.

Give me your thoughts.

[Batz]

Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russel, Dennis Rodman.

[Freshprince619]

Rodman. He did it without a substantial height and size advantage wilt and russell had.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Rodman. Averaging 18+ rebounds per game twice in the 90's is mindblowing. Led the league in rebounding 7 consecutive seasons with averages of 18.7, 18.3, 17.3, 16.8, 14.9, 16.1 and 15 per game, respectively. At 38 years old, he played 12 games with the Mavs in the 2000 season and amazingly, he averaged 14.3 rpg in 32 mpg. Whenever I watched Rodman it just seemed like he was quicker to the ball than anyone else and he he'd tip it a few times until he could get control and he'd almost always come away with the rebound.

[gts]

Rodman, all time leader in rebound percentage...

[Basketman]

Definitely Rodman. Wilt and Russell played with guys who were shorter, weaker, and less athletic. Weak competition. Rodman led the league in rebounds with dominant big men like Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, Shaquille O'Neal, etc. He is the greatest rebounder.

[Apocalyptic0n3]

Rodman without a doubt. He was the greatest rebounder of one of the most physical and defensive eras in history.

[JtotheIzzo]

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2009/0624/pg2_g_cage_400.jpg

[jlauber]

I have mentioned it before, but the NBA record books added TEAM rebounds into the the era of the 60's and at least the early part of the 70's...and then at some point (I haven't taken the time to find it), they suddenly decided not to include them.

For example, Wilt's 60-61 Warriors are credited with 5939 rebounds, but they actually only had 5276. Wilt's 66-67 76ers are listed with 5701, but actually only had 5104.

In contrast, the 95-96 Bulls are listed with 3658 rebounds, which is exactly what they had.

I bring that up, because that basically blows up this perception that Wilt was playing in an era in which there were twice as many rebounds available. Using the 95-96 Bulls and the 60-61 Warriors as examples...the Bulls averaged 44 rpg, while the Warriors averaged 66.

And, those examples are basically the biggest spread. Shaq's 2000 Lakers averaged 47 rpg, and Motumbo's Hawks averaged 45 rpg that same year, while Wilt's 1967 76ers averaged 62 rpg.

What does that mean? That this perception that the top centers of the 90's, who were averaging 13-14 rpg, were just as competitive as the top centers of the 60's, who were averaging 24-27 rpg.

Clearly, Rodman's 18.7 in 91-92 in 40 mpg, on a team that averaged 44 was sensational. It even dwarfs Wilt's 60-61 (Rodman would have averaged 28.1 rpg to Wilt's 27.2...and in seven minutes less per game.

HOWEVER, take a look at the POST-SEASON averages...where even Rodman drops to ordinary (9.9 rpg...compared to his 13.8 rpg regular season.) In the post-season, Wilt and Russell had numerous 26-30 rpg years. Wilt even had series' against Russell, in which he averaged 32 rpg (to Russell's 23 rpg.)

I have said it before, but Wilt outrebounded EVERYBODY. He outrebounded Russell, Thurmond, and Kareem. And using the "mini stat" of "Available Rebounds", 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle was a better rebounder than Wilt in the 72-73 season. In the playoffs, Wilt outrebounded him 161-9...and while Boerwinkle could only stay on the floor for 30 minutes in the entire series, his average was still WAY below Wilt's, per minute played.

[jlauber]

Speaking of the post-season, let's compare Shaq's game two of the 2000 Finals, with Wilt's game five of the 1972 Finals.

Shaq played 46 minutes, and grabbed 24 rebounds. Both teams combined for 125 rebounds (LA had 66, while Indiana had 59.)

Wilt played 47 minutes, and grabbed 29 rebounds. Both teams totaled 106 rebounds (LA had 67 while NY had 39.) In fact, wilt nearly outrebounded the ENTIRE Knick team...all with two badly injured wrists, and at age 35.

That was just one example just how dominant Wilt was in the post-season, BTW. Once again, he had post-season's in which he averaged 30 rpg. In fact, he averaged 24.5 rpg in his CAREER 160 post-season games. AND, he never had a post-season in which he averaged less than 20 rpg. Even in his final post-season, and at age 36, he averaged 22.5 rpg.

[jlauber]

This is a dumb thread Dennis Rodman is the undisputed Rebounding King. The guy was a madman on the boards.

Especially in the post-season, where he pulled down 9.9 rpg.

[Freshprince619]

Especially in the post-season, where he pulled down 9.9 rpg.
When your a rebounding machine like Rodman ppl will single you out and box you out before the ball leaves shooters hand

[jlauber]

When your a rebounding machine like Rodman ppl will single you out and box you out before the ball leaves shooters hand

So, then, he could be stopped. The same could not be said for Chamberlain...who, once again, outrebounded EVERYBODY...and DOMINATED them in the post-season.

[Freshprince619]

So, then, he could be stopped. The same could not be said for Chamberlain...who, once again, outrebounded EVERYBODY...and DOMINATED them in the post-season.
Rebounding is a skill. Chamberlain just got rebounds because he was far more athletic and taller then everybody. Rodman was a beast with timing, knowing where ball would bounce to etc

[jlauber]

Rebounding is a skill. Chamberlain just got rebounds because he was far more athletic and taller then everybody. Rodman was a beast with timing, knowing where ball would bounce to etc

Those who witnessed him play would say the same thing about Russell.

[Big#50]

Rodman, Barkley and Kobe. JK about Kobe.

[jlauber]

Rebounding is a skill. Chamberlain just got rebounds because he was far more athletic and taller then everybody. Rodman was a beast with timing, knowing where ball would bounce to etc

I wonder how many MORE rebounds per game Chamberlain would have gotten had he had the good fortune to play against the likes of Eaton, Smits, Muresan, Bol, Longley, Ostertag, Breuer...and the list just goes on-and-on...

[Freshprince619]

I wonder how many MORE rebounds per game Chamberlain would have gotten had he had the good fortune to play against the likes of Eaton, Smits, Muresan, Bol, Longley, Ostertag, Breuer...and the list just goes on-and-on...
They would drop significantly if he ever constantly went up against 7 footers

[jlauber]

They would drop significantly if he ever constantly went up against 7 footers

Like 7-2 Kareem, whom he considerably outrebounded, despite being well past his prime. Incidently, Kareem won a rebounding title after Wilt retired.

Had Chamberlain played the MANY laughingstock 7-0+ footers who permeated the NBA in the 80's and 90's, he would have averaged 20 rpg just by picking the ball off the floor.

[Alhazred]

Especially in the post-season, where he pulled down 9.9 rpg.

Rodman's rebounding numbers were hurt due to him coming off the bench, particularly when he was with Detroit. Here are the minutes Wilt and Dennis averaged in the playoffs for their careers.

Wilt Chamberlain- 47.2 Minutes per game

Dennis Rodman- 28.3 Minutes per game

[julizaver]

Rodman's rebounding numbers were hurt due to him coming off the bench, particularly when he was with Detroit. Here are the minutes Wilt and Dennis averaged in the playoffs for their careers.

Wilt Chamberlain- 47.2 Minutes per game

Dennis Rodman- 28.3 Minutes per game

OK, but let's make it complete:
Chamberlain = 47.2 min per game = 24.5 rpg , so 1 rebound in less than 2 minutes
Rodman = 28.3 min per game = 9.9 rpg, so 1 rebound in almost 3 minutes.

If we discussed the greatest rebounder ever ... it shall be Bill Russell IMO. My reasons:

1. Wilt Chamberlain (who outrebound Russell in every 8 postseason series agaisnt Celtics !!!) phoned Russell and admit to him that according to Wilt he was the greatest rebounder - because of his postseason numbers (45.4 min per game - 24.9 reb per game) and because of his size in comparision to Wilt's he shall need more efforts and skills to reach his numbers than Wilt.

2. Bill Russell was not only great rebounder - he was a proffilic shot blocker - unlike Rodman - Russell intimidate opponents shooters and by that he sometimes go out of position for rebounds. But from what I see in youtube - he was the best rebounder size by size, minutes by minutes. In 1964 he played against Wilt Chamberlain at center and Nate Thurmond (also great rebounder) and power forward positon and still able to collect 25.2 reb per game in 5 games. In 1965, 1966, 1967, 1968 he faced again Wilt and Luke Jackson in PF position and again average at least 23 reb per game. Rodman style of rebounding remind's me that of Russell - going for the rebound with one horizontaly stretched arm - and also he had this lateral movement of Russell. But Russell was more quick and can jump higher. Rodman was more stronger than Russell and tougher under the boards. That's why I consider Russell as greater rebounder than Rodman - who was the greatest rebounder in the 90's.

[TryToBeUnbias]

Well Rodman was the Greatest rebounder I'd ever seen .... One of my all-time favorite players

[iamgine]

Dennis Rodman, no one else comes close except Moses Malone.

[jlauber]

OK, but let's make it complete:
Chamberlain = 47.2 min per game = 24.5 rpg , so 1 rebound in less than 2 minutes
Rodman = 28.3 min per game = 9.9 rpg, so 1 rebound in almost 3 minutes.

If we discussed the greatest rebounder ever ... it shall be Bill Russell IMO. My reasons:

1. Wilt Chamberlain (who outrebound Russell in every 8 postseason series agaisnt Celtics !!!) phoned Russell and admit to him that according to Wilt he was the greatest rebounder - because of his postseason numbers (45.4 min per game - 24.9 reb per game) and because of his size in comparision to Wilt's he shall need more efforts and skills to reach his numbers than Wilt.

2. Bill Russell was not only great rebounder - he was a proffilic shot blocker - unlike Rodman - Russell intimidate opponents shooters and by that he sometimes go out of position for rebounds. But from what I see in youtube - he was the best rebounder size by size, minutes by minutes. In 1964 he played against Wilt Chamberlain at center and Nate Thurmond (also great rebounder) and power forward positon and still able to collect 25.2 reb per game in 5 games. In 1965, 1966, 1967, 1968 he faced again Wilt and Luke Jackson in PF position and again average at least 23 reb per game. Rodman style of rebounding remind's me that of Russell - going for the rebound with one horizontaly stretched arm - and also he had this lateral movement of Russell. But Russell was more quick and can jump higher. Rodman was more stronger than Russell and tougher under the boards. That's why I consider Russell as greater rebounder than Rodman - who was the greatest rebounder in the 90's.

I believe Wilt was on record as saying that Russell was a more skilled rebounder than himself. And while I have never read or seen anything to substantiate it, it was said that Russell was a more "clutch" rebounder than Chamberlain.

Still, the fact remains that Chamberlain just dominated everybody he faced on the glass. True, he was the tallest player in the league for much of his career, but as history has taught us, height has never been the key reason to rebounding. If it were, then Muresan, Bol, Yao, Bradley, Neavitt, Smits, Holbrook (7-3 and who played against Wilt), Breuer, Eaton, Longley, Ostertag, and many others would have been among the leaders every season.

Russell has been considered the second greatest rebounder in NBA history for a variety of reasons, and he was certainly near the very top, no matter what criteria you use, but Wilt just buried him H2H. Chamberlain outrebounded Russell, in 142 H2H games, by a staggering 29-24 rpg margin. Wilt holds the single game record of 55...against Russell. And, he holds the single game post-season record of 41...against Russell. In their 142 games, Chamberlain won the rebounding duel, 92-42-8. And in many of them, he overwhelmed Russell. Wilt had that 55 rebound game vs Russell. Russell's high game against Wilt was 40. Well, Wilt held a 7-1 edge in 40+ rebounds games against Russell. AND, he had a whopping 23-4 edge in 35+ rebound vs Russell.

Regarding Rodman's numbers. I have said it before...Rodman played in an era of the weakest rebounding centers in NBA history. Even the top centers, like Motumbo, Robinson, Shaq, and Hakeem, were no better than 13-14 rpg (and 14 was rare BTW...only Motumbo accomplished that.) Furthermore, in the playoffs, Shaq was probably the best of the group...and his high was 15.4 rpg for a season. Well, Wilt never had a post-season in which he grabbed LESS than 20 rpg. In his final NBA season, Chamberlain, at age 36, averaged 22.5 rpg in the post-season. Wilt had entire post-seasons with 30 rpg, as well as 29, 27, and 27 rpg.

And while there were generall more rebounds to be had for much of Chamberlain's post-season career, there were playoffs in which he participated in which they were comparable to those of even 2000. I mentioned what was probably Shaq's best post-season game, in game two of the 2000 Finals, in which he grabbed 24 rebounds, in 46 minutes, out of a total of 125 rebounds. Well, Wilt, in the clinching game five win over NY in the '72 Finals, pulled down 29 rebounds, in 47 minutes, out of a total of 106 available rebounds. He nearly outrebounded a Knick team by himself (NY had a total of 39 rebounds.)

Rodman's regular season numbers were impressive, to be sure. But, he was basically a glorified role player, who was asked to rebound and play defense. Chamberlain was asked to score, pass, play defense, block shots, ignite the break, AND rebound. Even more importantly, in the post-season, and when it mattered most, Chamberlain elevated his rebounding to another level...while Rodman shrank to nothing more than average. And Chamberlain crushed the second best rebounder of all-time, Russell, in the post-season. He outrebounded him in ALL eight post-season series', including the 66-67 ECF's, in which he won the battle, per game, by an astonishing 32-23 margin.

And for those that claim that Rodman would have had many more rebounds, had he played in the Wilt era...IMHO, Rodman would not have made an NBA roster in the 60's or early 70's. Starting forwards were expected to have good all-around games, including the ability to score. Not only that, but if Rodman had been fortunate enough to play back then, he would have been battling the best rebounders in the history of the NBA. Russell, Thurmond, Lucas, and Wilt, among the many, would have limited what Rodman would have gotten. And, I'm sorry, but H2H against Chamberlain, who would have enjoyed a huge height advantage, a huge strength advantage, and a huge leaping advantage...and Rodman would have joined the Boerwinkle's who Chamberlain routinely crushed on the glass.

[jlauber]

Dennis Rodman, no one else comes close except Moses Malone.

Hummm...the RECORD BOOK suggests otherwise...

Game, season, career,...all have the name Wilt next to them,... and by staggering margins, I might add.

Let's see...ELEVEN rebounding titles in 14 years (and he probably would have won a 12th in the 69-70 season had he not been injured.) The top THREE seasons, and SIX of the top seven.

[G.O.A.T]

http://samcassellisanalienandilovehim.files.wordpress.com/2006/11/ben-wallace-pic.jpg
10. Ben Wallace
-Pistons star cleaned the glass like no other in the first half of this last decade winning rebounding titles in '02 & '03 peaking at over 15 rebounds per game, the highest non-Rodman average of the last thirty years. Seven years consecutive double-figure rebound average and six straight in the NBA top five.

http://www.draft-history.pl/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/Nate-Thurmond1.jpg
9. Nate Thurmond
-Averaged 15 a game for his career and ranks in the top ten all-time in total rebounds. Finished second to Wilt three times ('67, '68, '73) in the top five three more times in the booming sixties.

http://hoopedia.nba.com/images/8/81/KGarnett.jpg
8. Kevin Garnett
-One of just four players ever to win four consecutive rebounding titles. Garnett controlled the defensive glass like no other in the last ten years. Nine consecutive double-figure rebounding seasons and ten straight in the top ten.

http://bullsbrasil.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/gilmore_bulls.jpg
7. Artis Gilmore
- The best rebounder in ABA history, his 18.31 per game average in 1974 is the has been topped just once since. Artis led the ABA in rebounding in four of his five seasons averaging 17 a game in that span then went on to have eight more double figure rebounding seasons in the NBA finishing in the top five three times.

http://www.nba.com/media/wizards/unseld_300_080515.jpg
6. Wes Unseld
- The first of three "short" guys on this list, at 6'6" Unseld was a tenacious rebounder whose 14.0 career average is 7th best all-time. He won the 1975 NBA rebounding title and finished second to Wilt three other times. In addition five more times he cracked the top five; his 15 per game average in the postseason is third all-time trailing only Russell and Wilt.

http://beat.bodoglife.com/wp-content/uploads/charles-barkley.jpg
5. Charles Barkley
- No player displayed more determination in attacking the glass then Barkley. In arguably the deepest era for centers of all-time Barkley out-rebounded them all. Not Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, Dikembe Mutombo or Shaquille O'Neal averaged as many caroms as the "Round Mound of Rebound" He won three straight SEC rebounding titles, won the NBA rebounding title in 1986-87 (second '86, '89, '90, '99) and led the postseason in '86, '90 and '93.

http://blogs.chron.com/jeromesolomon/Moses.bmp
4. Moses Malone
- Fifth all-time in total rebounds and the top offensive rebounder ever, Moses led the league five consecutive times from 1981 to 1985. He averaged a career high 17.6 winning the crown in 1979 as well. 12 times in his career Malone was in the top five in rebounding.

http://www.notbored.org/rodman-rebound.gif
3. Dennis Rodman
- The last of our three short guys, Rodman was the best rebounder of the modern era; he led the league a record seven consecutive years while playing with three different teams in that era. His averages ranged from 15 per game to 18.7 in 1992 with Detroit, the highest average posted since Wilt Chamberlain in 1972.

http://www.thetoptensite.com/sitebuilder/images/WILT_CHAMBERLAIN-300x401.jpg
2. Wilt Chamberlain
- The all-time leader in rebounds and the only man to win eight rebounding titles. The Big Dipper owns the seven highest single season rebounding averages in NBA history. He also led the postseason in rebounding eight times and never averaged fewer than 20 rebounds per game. He is first all-time with a regular season average of 22.9 and had nine consecutive seasons of 20+ rebounds per game.

http://www.sportsmemorabilia.com/files/cache/bill-russell-celtics-hook-shot-8x10-photo_af7b2c2d324d6a7a30037da142e7bfd7.jpg
1. Bill Russell
-In classic Russell and Wilt fashion, Russell gets the best of Wilt when it matters most. Wilt is the all-time leader in career rebounds and rebounds per game in the regular season and Russell second, they swap spots in the postseason where Russell's 24.9 per game average is highest all-time. Chamberlain had nine straight 20+ seasons, Russell...10. Russell also never dropped below 20 per game in the playoffs. We won five regular season rebounding championships and six times lead the postseason. He led the playoffs in total rebounds in 10 of his 13 seasons.

[jlauber]

In classic Russell and Wilt fashion, Russell gets the best of Wilt when it matters most. Wilt is the all-time leader in career rebounds and rebounds per game in the regular season and Russell second, they swap spots in the postseason where Russell's 24.9 per game average is highest all-time. Chamberlain had nine straight 20+ seasons, Russell...10. Russell also never dropped below 20 per game in the playoffs. We won five regular season rebounding championships and six times lead the postseason. He led the playoffs in total rebounds in 10 of his 13 seasons.

In Wilt's defense, he outrebounded Russell in EVERY post-season series, and he absolutely crushed him in some of them. In the 66-67 ECF's, Wilt murdered Russell by NINE rebounds per game. How bad was it? In game three Russell hauled in 29 rebounds...and was outrebounded by 12!!!

In their ten year H2H seasons, Chamberlain won EIGHT rebounding titles (Russell edged him in the other two.)

Once again, H2H, and it was simply no contest. Chamberlain outrebounded Russell, per game, 29-24...in 142 battles. Wilt held a 92-42-8 margin in those games, as well. There have been 28 40+ rebound games in NBA history...and Wilt has 15 of them...SEVEN of them at Russell's expense.

Even in Wilt's lowest playoff moments, like game seven of the 67-68 ECF's, he STILL outrebounded Russell, 34-26. Or in game seven of the 68-69 Finals, when he sat out the last five minutes of the game...and STILL buried Russell, 27-21. And in game five of that same series, Chamberlain pounded Russell, 31-13.

The fact was, Wilt DOMINATED Russell on the glass...just as he did EVERYONE he faced.

[NY-Knicks]

great list goat. lfinally someone showing some love for sir charles in the rebounding category. He was a midget amongst giants and he still outrebounded them. The top 2 on your list played when more shots were put up (faster pace) and against smaller less athletic opponents, in a league where baylor grabbed like what, 15 boards a game? I agree that Russell is better than Wilt but I have Rodman as the greatest rebounder. Might even put Moses ahead of your top 2. But that is my opinion. I started loving rebounding because of him, so my opinion is not fair.

[G.O.A.T]

great list goat. lfinally someone showing some love for sir charles in the rebounding category. He was a midget amongst giants and he still outrebounded them. The top 2 on your list played when more shots were put up (faster pace) and against smaller less athletic opponents, in a league where baylor grabbed like what, 15 boards a game? I agree that Russell is better than Wilt but I have Rodman as the greatest rebounder. Might even put Moses ahead of your top 2. But that is my opinion. I started loving rebounding because of him, so my opinion is not fair.

Most figures I've seen adjusted for pace and rebounds available still have Wilt and Russ as the greatest statistical rebounders ever ahead of Moses and Rodman. The other thing to consider a bit is that Rodman was a role player and defense and rebounding was his only objective, Russell and Wilt were franchise players.


In Wilt's defense, he outrebounded Russell in EVERY post-season series, and he absolutely crushed him in some of them. In the 66-67 ECF's, Wilt murdered Russell by NINE rebounds per game. How bad was it? In game three Russell hauled in 29 rebounds...and was outrebounded by 12!!!

In their ten year H2H seasons, Chamberlain won EIGHT rebounding titles (Russell edged him in the other two.)

Once again, H2H, and it was simply no contest. Chamberlain outrebounded Russell, per game, 29-24...in 142 battles. Wilt held a 92-42-8 margin in those games, as well. There have been 28 40+ rebound games in NBA history...and Wilt has 15 of them...SEVEN of them at Russell's expense.

Even in Wilt's lowest playoff moments, like game seven of the 67-68 ECF's, he STILL outrebounded Russell, 34-26. Or in game seven of the 68-69 Finals, when he sat out the last five minutes of the game...and STILL buried Russell, 27-21. And in game five of that same series, Chamberlain pounded Russell, 31-13.

The fact was, Wilt DOMINATED Russell on the glass...just as he did EVERYONE he faced.

The argument for Wilt is stronger than that for Russ in this category. Wilt won the battle in eight of 10 common regular seasons and six of nine common postseasons.

The head to head is taken with a grain of salt though as the Celtics won almost all those series and Russell still ended up with the higher overall career average. Russell also has the NBA Finals record with 40 and it came in a game seven.

[jlauber]

Most figures I've seen adjusted for pace and rebounds available still have Wilt and Russ as the greatest statistical rebounders ever ahead of Moses and Rodman. The other thing to consider a bit is that Rodman was a role player and defense and rebounding was his only objective, Russell and Wilt were franchise players.



The argument for Wilt is stronger than that for Russ in this category. Wilt won the battle in eight of 10 common regular seasons and six of nine common postseasons.

The head to head is taken with a grain of salt though as the Celtics won almost all those series and Russell still ended up with the higher overall career average. Russell also has the NBA Finals record with 40 and it came in a game seven.

As much as I respect your opinions...I just don't think this debate is even close. Yes, Russell had a game seven with 40 rebounds...but it was not against Wilt. In the four game seven's between the two, Wilt won three of them and tied in the other. Not only that, but in the clinching game five win in the 66-67 ECF's Chamberlain outrebounded Russell, 36-21.

Once again, I can find a TON of games in which Chamberlain just annihilated Russell on the glass, and only a very few in which Russell enjoyed much of an edge.

In their 40 rebound games each other, here is how it went...

Russell 40, Wilt 25
Wilt 43, Russell 29
Wilt 55, Russell 19
Wilt 43, Russell 26
Wilt 40, Russell 17
Wilt 42, Russell 25
Wilt 41, Russell 29 (playoffs)
Wilt 42, Russell 18

And, Chamberlain held an incredible 23-4 edge in 35+ rebound games.

[HiphopRelated]

Rodman

[jlauber]

Rodman

Any argument for Rodman goes out the window in the post-season. And how many rebounding titles did Rodman win? Chamberlain won ELEVEN.

[Obama=ROY]

Dennis Rodman is the greatest rebounder.

[Abraham Lincoln]

One can only imagine if Chamberlain or Russell morphed themselves into offensive liabilities and intentionally blew defensive assignments as to not venture too far away from the basket and pass up a rebound. He did indeed have a strong instinct as to where the ball would end up in addition to a quick 1st, 2nd, & 3rd jump, but he was not head and shoulders above others of his era as to me he was a better 1-1 defensive player with the Pistons than he was rebounder. As great as he was with the Bad Boys, Chicago Rodman is very overrated.

[Abraham Lincoln]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOZpMZ5rAc8#t=1m31s

[824]

Any argument for Rodman goes out the window in the post-season. And how many rebounding titles did Rodman win? Chamberlain won ELEVEN.

Buddy it's clearly an argument and Wilt isn't the clear cut GOAT rebounding, you can be happy with your choice and we'll be happy choosing Rodman.

[G.O.A.T]

As much as I respect your opinions...I just don't think this debate is even close. Yes, Russell had a game seven with 40 rebounds...but it was not against Wilt. In the four game seven's between the two, Wilt won three of them and tied in the other. Not only that, but in the clinching game five win in the 66-67 ECF's Chamberlain outrebounded Russell, 36-21.

Once again, I can find a TON of games in which Chamberlain just annihilated Russell on the glass, and only a very few in which Russell enjoyed much of an edge.

In their 40 rebound games each other, here is how it went...

Russell 40, Wilt 25
Wilt 43, Russell 29
Wilt 55, Russell 19
Wilt 43, Russell 26
Wilt 40, Russell 17
Wilt 42, Russell 25
Wilt 41, Russell 29 (playoffs)
Wilt 42, Russell 18

And, Chamberlain held an incredible 23-4 edge in 35+ rebound games.

Russell's goal wasn't to outrebound Wilt, it was to beat him.

Wilt thought if he got more rebounds then Russ and scored twice as much they'd win, Russell knew if he could contain Wilt late in games, he'd win.

It's been pointed out that Wilt conceded Russell was the better rebounder.

I told you I think Wilt has the stronger argument but I'm with Russell on this one by a nose.

The fact that Wilt outrebounded Russell head-to-head suggests that Wilt was trying specifically to do that. My evidence would be the fact that Russ still had the higher postseason average when all games were factored in. Obviously Russell dominated other players on the glass more because he had an edge there as oppose to against Wilt where he was giving up so much. Why didn't Wilt dominate the other players as much as Russell did. If he could get the best of Russ by such a wide margin, why not post even bigger numbers against everyone else?

[jstern]

I only have one Bulls game on VHS and watching Rodman rebound is truly one of the most amazing things in the world to me. I consider him my number 2 most amazing player strictly because of his rebounding. Pure intelligence.

[Bigsmoke]

i seen some of the ealiers Sixers games on NBA TV and Moses Malone is the most powerful and nastiest rebounder that i have ever seen.

[LAClipsFan33]

1. Wilt

2. Russell

3. Rodman

4. Moses Malone

5. Nate Thurmond

[LA_Showtime]

When you factor in the various styles of play, eras, and teammates, it's next to impossible to define the greatest rebounder of all-time. Obviously you have a couple of guys who warrant mention.

Russell, Chamberlain, Rodman come to mind.

[Lebron23]

Dennis Rodman

[jlauber]

Russell's goal wasn't to outrebound Wilt, it was to beat him.

Wilt thought if he got more rebounds then Russ and scored twice as much they'd win, Russell knew if he could contain Wilt late in games, he'd win.

It's been pointed out that Wilt conceded Russell was the better rebounder.

I told you I think Wilt has the stronger argument but I'm with Russell on this one by a nose.

The fact that Wilt outrebounded Russell head-to-head suggests that Wilt was trying specifically to do that. My evidence would be the fact that Russ still had the higher postseason average when all games were factored in. Obviously Russell dominated other players on the glass more because he had an edge there as oppose to against Wilt where he was giving up so much. Why didn't Wilt dominate the other players as much as Russell did. If he could get the best of Russ by such a wide margin, why not post even bigger numbers against everyone else?

Part of that was because Russell's teams usually got to play deeper into the playoffs. A good example was the 61-62 Finals. Russell was able to feast on the Laker front court that season. You mentioned Russell's brilliant game seven of that series, a 30-40 game. Well, I have always maintained that had Chamberlain's band of clowns in 61-62 been able to score THREE more points in that game seven against the Celtics, that we would have seen Finals' records in scoring and rebounding that would probably never have been matched. Why? In six regular season games against the Lakers, he averaged 51.5 ppg, including THREE games of 60+. And, in one of them, he had a monstrous 78-43 game.

Having said that, however, Wilt just plain outrebounded everybody. In the 66-67 Finals, he outrebounded Thurmond by a 28.5 - 26.7 margin...and this was following his series against Russell, whom he outrebounded by a 32.0 - 23.0 margin.

I mentioned Wilt's clinching game five performance in the '72 Finals... 47 minutes, 29 rebounds, in a game that had a TOTAL of 106 (LA had 67, while the Knicks had 39.) Not only that, but he was playing with one fractured wrist, and the other badly sprained. And, he was 35 at the time.

Don't get me wrong...Russell was, IMHO, the most skilled rebounder ever. Even Wilt admitted as much. Still, Chamberlain's incredible athleticism enabled him to dominate virtually every opposing center he faced. I just believe that Wilt was by FAR the greatest rebounder in NBA history, and that Russell is a distant second. After that, and well below, comes Rodman, Thurmond, Lucas (at his peak), and M. Malone.

[The_Yearning]

First of all, none of you idiots have seen Wilt play and are just making up nonsense that you have speculated from studying the overrated stats of Wilt and Russel.

D-Rod.

[jlauber]

First of all, none of you idiots have seen Wilt play and are just making up nonsense that you have speculated from studying the overrated stats of Wilt and Russel.

D-Rod.

Well, even if I had not seen Wilt play...which of course, I did...how much speculation needs to be done? ELEVEN rebounding titles. Virtually EVERY major rebounding record. AND, he DOMINATED virtually EVERY center he faced. Oh, BTW, he ELEVATED his play in the post-season, too.

Rodman, as a glorified role player, won seven titles, in an era of the worst rebounding centers in NBA history, and then, in the POST-SEASON, he dropped down to an average rebounder, at best.

[julizaver]

Russell's goal wasn't to outrebound Wilt, it was to beat him.

Wilt thought if he got more rebounds then Russ and scored twice as much they'd win, Russell knew if he could contain Wilt late in games, he'd win.

It's been pointed out that Wilt conceded Russell was the better rebounder.

I told you I think Wilt has the stronger argument but I'm with Russell on this one by a nose.

The fact that Wilt outrebounded Russell head-to-head suggests that Wilt was trying specifically to do that. My evidence would be the fact that Russ still had the higher postseason average when all games were factored in. Obviously Russell dominated other players on the glass more because he had an edge there as oppose to against Wilt where he was giving up so much. Why didn't Wilt dominate the other players as much as Russell did. If he could get the best of Russ by such a wide margin, why not post even bigger numbers against everyone else?

I hope you read again what you have wrote :). You say (or ask) that Wilt shows up only against Russell and did not post even higher numbers against anyone else ?
I tell you - the reboundng superiority of Wilt against all other centers is even higher than that between Wilt and Russell. The only centers who chalenge Wilt on the boards were Russell and Nate, and Kareem at the end of Wilt's career. Willis Reed, Jerry Lucas, Walt Bellamy, Wayne Embry, Zelmo Beaty, Jonhy Red Ker and company were badly outrebounded by Wilt in the postseasons series.
Never ever in a postseason series during his 14 year NBA career Wilt was outrebounded.
However in my prevous post I have explained why I consider Russell the greatest rebounder - and believe me it was very closed in my mind - I can choose Wilt for example and argue all day long about it - but since Wilt admit to Russ that he was better rebounder than him I'll give the edge to Russ.

[jlauber]

First of all, none of you idiots have seen Wilt play and are just making up nonsense that you have speculated from studying the overrated stats of Wilt and Russel.

D-Rod.

AND, since YOU did NOT see Chamberlain play, how does that make YOU an "expert" on the topic????

Throw out the stats, which CLEARLY show that Chamberlain was the greatest ever. All you need to KNOW is that Wilt outrebounded EVERYBODY, and usually by HUGE margins...including the POST-SEASON!

[Alhazred]

Regarding Rodman's numbers. I have said it before...Rodman played in an era of the weakest rebounding centers in NBA history. Even the top centers, like Motumbo, Robinson, Shaq, and Hakeem, were no better than 13-14 rpg (and 14 was rare BTW...only Motumbo accomplished that.) Furthermore, in the playoffs, Shaq was probably the best of the group...and his high was 15.4 rpg for a season. Well, Wilt never had a post-season in which he grabbed LESS than 20 rpg. In his final NBA season, Chamberlain, at age 36, averaged 22.5 rpg in the post-season. Wilt had entire post-seasons with 30 rpg, as well as 29, 27, and 27 rpg.

That doesn't indicate that they were less skilled at rebounding than their 60s counterparts, though. The 60s had a ridiculous pace, plus there was no three point line for perimeter players to take advantage of, guaranteeing shots would be taken at closer range. A center couldn't have asked to play in a better era that catered to his strengths.


And while there were generall more rebounds to be had for much of Chamberlain's post-season career, there were playoffs in which he participated in which they were comparable to those of even 2000. I mentioned what was probably Shaq's best post-season game, in game two of the 2000 Finals, in which he grabbed 24 rebounds, in 46 minutes, out of a total of 125 rebounds. Well, Wilt, in the clinching game five win over NY in the '72 Finals, pulled down 29 rebounds, in 47 minutes, out of a total of 106 available rebounds. He nearly outrebounded a Knick team by himself (NY had a total of 39 rebounds.)

Wasn't that Knicks team missing Willis Reed? Also, Shaq scored 40 points in his performance as opposed to Wilt who only scored 24.


Rodman's regular season numbers were impressive, to be sure. But, he was basically a glorified role player, who was asked to rebound and play defense. Chamberlain was asked to score, pass, play defense, block shots, ignite the break, AND rebound. Even more importantly, in the post-season, and when it mattered most, Chamberlain elevated his rebounding to another level...while Rodman shrank to nothing more than average. And Chamberlain crushed the second best rebounder of all-time, Russell, in the post-season. He outrebounded him in ALL eight post-season series', including the 66-67 ECF's, in which he won the battle, per game, by an astonishing 32-23 margin.

Not true. His performances in the 1996 playoffs for example were excellent, such as when he outrebounded Shaq in the ECF and broke rebounding records in the Finals.


And for those that claim that Rodman would have had many more rebounds, had he played in the Wilt era...IMHO, Rodman would not have made an NBA roster in the 60's or early 70's. Starting forwards were expected to have good all-around games, including the ability to score. Not only that, but if Rodman had been fortunate enough to play back then, he would have been battling the best rebounders in the history of the NBA. Russell, Thurmond, Lucas, and Wilt, among the many, would have limited what Rodman would have gotten. And, I'm sorry, but H2H against Chamberlain, who would have enjoyed a huge height advantage, a huge strength advantage, and a huge leaping advantage...and Rodman would have joined the Boerwinkle's who Chamberlain routinely crushed on the glass.

Theoretically, Shaq should have crushed Rodman in the 1996 ECF, then.

And as I've said before, the only thing that would hold Dennis back in the 60s would be his image. Other than that, teams would have loved the addition of a rebounding machine who could guard nearly every position and didn't hog the ball. Players like Darrell Imhoff and Johnny Green wouldn't have stood a chance of competing with him for a spot.

[NY-Knicks]

Most figures I've seen adjusted for pace and rebounds available still have Wilt and Russ as the greatest statistical rebounders ever ahead of Moses and Rodman. The other thing to consider a bit is that Rodman was a role player and defense and rebounding was his only objective, Russell and Wilt were franchise players.

Your last argument is so true. They had to focus on other things, even though Russell's main focus was also rebounding and defense.

[jlauber]

That doesn't indicate that they were less skilled at rebounding than their 60s counterparts, though. The 60s had a ridiculous pace, plus there was no three point line for perimeter players to take advantage of, guaranteeing shots would be taken at closer range. A center couldn't have asked to play in a better era that catered to his strengths.



Wasn't that Knicks team missing Willis Reed? Also, Shaq scored 40 points in his performance as opposed to Wilt who only scored 24.



Not true. His performances in the 1996 playoffs for example were excellent, such as when he outrebounded Shaq in the ECF and broke rebounding records in the Finals.



Theoretically, Shaq should have crushed Rodman in the 1996 ECF, then.

And as I've said before, the only thing that would hold Dennis back in the 60s would be his image. Other than that, teams would have loved the addition of a rebounding machine who could guard nearly every position and didn't hog the ball. Players like Darrell Imhoff and Johnny Green wouldn't have stood a chance of competing with him for a spot.

Let's see, yes NY was missing Reed, whom Chamberlain THOROUGHLY outrebounded H2H in EVERY post-season GAME between the two. BUT, that Knick team had Jerry Lucas and Dave DeBusschere, who currently rank 4th and 30th All-Time in rpg. Not to diminish Shaq's performance, but it came against Rik Smits and Dale Davis...where do they rank?

Yes, Shaq scored 40 to go along with his 24 rebounds. Your point? How about Wilt with a 50-35 PLAYOFF game against Russell? Or a 46-34 PLAYOFF game...also against Russell? Or his 45-27 game against the Knicks in the '70 Finals, and on one leg (yes, Reed missed that game, too...so I guess it means nothing)? The FACT is, I could come up with MANY HUGE playoff games in Wilt's favor.

Yes, the pace of the game was higher during the 60's and early 70's...but as I pointed out before, we are talking about a MAXIMUM of 50% more shots. I already gave Rodman a kudos on his 91-92 season. Put him in Wilt's 60-61 season, and THEORETICALLY, he would have averaged 28 rpg compared to Wilt's 27. As for those "top" rebounding centers of the 90's...like Shaq, Motumbo, Robinson, and Hakeem...their 13-14 average would translate to about 20-21 MAX, in the 60's. Jerry Lucas was getting that forcryingoutloud...much less Wilt, Russell, and Thurmond. AND, one more time...what about the post-season, when Wilt and Russell were having multiple seasons of between 27-30, while Rodman was dropping below 10?

As for Rodman's breaking rebound records in the Finals...do you care to elaborate? He averaged 14.7 rpg in the Finals that year...and had a HIGH game of 20. Let's see...Wilt NEVER had a post-season SERIES, in which he averaged LESS than 20 rpg, and had one of over 30! I won't even take the time to look up his 30+ games...but it must be staggering. In any case, he holds the post-season record of 41, and it came against Russell.

[PistolPete]

Personally, I say Chamberlain, cause in the end, it's always a numbers game.

But this picture is pretty impressive. No way do I see Wilt or Russell flying across the floor like this...

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_URVpjJTk7pA/R6d-1IakYJI/AAAAAAAAB-w/6jyXiy7G-sM/Rodman.jpg

[Alhazred]

Let's see, yes NY was missing Reed, whom Chamberlain THOROUGHLY outrebounded H2H in EVERY post-season GAME between the two. BUT, that Knick team had Jerry Lucas and Dave DeBusschere, who currently rank 4th and 30th All-Time in rpg. Not to diminish Shaq's performance, but it came against Rik Smits and Dale Davis...where do they rank?

Lucas and DeBusschere were also both under 6' 8", good players but not the kind of guys I would want going head to head with Wilt. Both Wilt and Shaq faced fairly weak head to head matchups in those games, imo.


Yes, Shaq scored 40 to go along with his 24 rebounds. Your point? How about Wilt with a 50-35 PLAYOFF game against Russell? Or a 46-34 PLAYOFF game...also against Russell? Or his 45-27 game against the Knicks in the '70 Finals, and on one leg (yes, Reed missed that game, too...so I guess it means nothing)? The FACT is, I could come up with MANY HUGE playoff games in Wilt's favor.

My point was Shaq had to carry the scoring load for his team that series, while Wilt was able to rely on the likes of Goodrich and West in 72 to carry the offense.


Yes, the pace of the game was higher during the 60's and early 70's...but as I pointed out before, we are talking about a MAXIMUM of 50% more shots. I already gave Rodman a kudos on his 91-92 season. Put him in Wilt's 60-61 season, and THEORETICALLY, he would have averaged 28 rpg compared to Wilt's 27. As for those "top" rebounding centers of the 90's...like Shaq, Motumbo, Robinson, and Hakeem...their 13-14 average would translate to about 20-21 MAX, in the 60's. Jerry Lucas was getting that forcryingoutloud...much less Wilt, Russell, and Thurmond. AND, one more time...what about the post-season, when Wilt and Russell were having multiple seasons of between 27-30, while Rodman was dropping below 10?

Rodman's average dropped that low in the playoffs due to him coming off of the bench. Wilt averaged nearly 20 more minutes per game compared to Rodman, after all.


As for Rodman's breaking rebound records in the Finals...do you care to elaborate? He averaged 14.7 rpg in the Finals that year...and had a HIGH game of 20. Let's see...Wilt NEVER had a post-season SERIES, in which he averaged LESS than 20 rpg, and had one of over 30!

Rodman shares the record for most offensive rebounds in a Finals game which was 11 in games 2 and 6.

I'm not saying Rodman is a better player than Wilt or even Russell. He was a role player who played defense and grabbed rebounds, while Wilt and Russell did that as well as being their teams' leaders, but to say that Dennis wouldn't even make a roster in the 60s is just asinine.

[guy]

I have mentioned it before, but the NBA record books added TEAM rebounds into the the era of the 60's and at least the early part of the 70's...and then at some point (I haven't taken the time to find it), they suddenly decided not to include them.

For example, Wilt's 60-61 Warriors are credited with 5939 rebounds, but they actually only had 5276. Wilt's 66-67 76ers are listed with 5701, but actually only had 5104.

In contrast, the 95-96 Bulls are listed with 3658 rebounds, which is exactly what they had.

I bring that up, because that basically blows up this perception that Wilt was playing in an era in which there were twice as many rebounds available. Using the 95-96 Bulls and the 60-61 Warriors as examples...the Bulls averaged 44 rpg, while the Warriors averaged 66.

Even if you want to take team rebounds into account, (66-44)/44 is still 50%. Wilt still had 1.5x as many rebounds available to him then Rodman did. Maybe its not twice, but thats still a huge number. Then take into account the huge amount of minutes the best players got to play, and then its even more.




What does that mean? That this perception that the top centers of the 90's, who were averaging 13-14 rpg, were just as competitive as the top centers of the 60's, who were averaging 24-27 rpg.


LOL. It actually proves nothing. Yes, thats twice as much, as opposed to 1.5x. However, you should also take minutes into account. The top rebounding centers in the 60 like Wilt, Russell, Thurmond all regularly averaged 44-48 mpg. Hell, even Kareem in the 70s had seasons with 44 mpg. Things had changed alot by the time the 90s came. The top rebounding centers of the 90s such as Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, and Deke all topped out at 38-41 mpg because coaches didn't want any of their best players playing that mnay minutes.

And you also have to take into account the improvements of perimeter players. Even if centers from back then still got a higher % of total rebounds (adjusted for team rebounds), you have to take into account that maybe perimeter players were just much better rebounders in the 90s then they were in the 60s, i.e. the centers faced heavier competition from them in the 90s then they did in the 60s. There's really no way of proving that theory just by looking at numbers though. Centers averaging higher rebounding % in the 60s could be because maybe they are better then the centers in the 90s, or it could be because other positions got stronger while the centers stayed the same but as a result the centers % of rebounds went down. No way of telling, however, I think its pretty clear that by the time the 90s came, the perimeter players were much more athletic, and as a result were arguably better rebounders.

[jlauber]

Lucas and DeBusschere were also both under 6' 8", good players but not the kind of guys I would want going head to head with Wilt. Both Wilt and Shaq faced fairly weak head to head matchups in those games, imo.



My point was Shaq had to carry the scoring load for his team that series, while Wilt was able to rely on the likes of Goodrich and West in 72 to carry the offense.



Rodman's average dropped that low in the playoffs due to him coming off of the bench. Wilt averaged nearly 20 more minutes per game compared to Rodman, after all.



Rodman shares the record for most offensive rebounds in a Finals game which was 11 in games 2 and 6.

I'm not saying Rodman is a better player than Wilt or even Russell. He was a role player who played defense and grabbed rebounds, while Wilt and Russell did that as well as being their teams' leaders, but to say that Dennis wouldn't even make a roster in the 60s is just asinine.

You may be right about Rodman in the 60's. But my main point was that I seriously doubt that he would have started. But, yes, there were forwards who did not score much back then, too. Clyde Lee comes to mind.

I do agree that Rodman was the greatest rebounder of his era. He was getting 4-5 more rpg than his nearest competitor. And, at least in a few of his seasons, adjusted for pace, and then by minutes played, and he was the best ever. Here again, though, IMHO, he wouldn't have outrebounded Wilt or Russell back then. And, while Wilt and Russell elevated their rebounding in the post-season, Rodman's dropped dramatically.

It just amazes me, though, that there are some here, at least, that diminish Wilt's amazing rebounding records. The man won 11 rebounding titles in 14 years (and probably would have won his 12th had he not been injured one season.) And, the bottom line, was that he crushed his peers H2H.

[Abraham Lincoln]

How would you compare Rodman (Pistons) to Satch Sanders?

http://hoopedia.nba.com/images/5/5c/Tom_sanders.gif

[jlauber]

Even if you want to take team rebounds into account, (66-44)/44 is still 50%. Wilt still had 1.5x as many rebounds available to him then Rodman did. Maybe its not twice, but thats still a huge number. Then take into account the huge amount of minutes the best players got to play, and then its even more.




LOL. It actually proves nothing. Yes, thats twice as much, as opposed to 1.5x. However, you should also take minutes into account. The top rebounding centers in the 60 like Wilt, Russell, Thurmond all regularly averaged 44-48 mpg. Hell, even Kareem in the 70s had seasons with 44 mpg. Things had changed alot by the time the 90s came. The top rebounding centers of the 90s such as Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, and Deke all topped out at 38-41 mpg because coaches didn't want any of their best players playing that mnay minutes.

And you also have to take into account the improvements of perimeter players. Even if centers from back then still got a higher % of total rebounds (adjusted for team rebounds), you have to take into account that maybe perimeter players were just much better rebounders in the 90s then they were in the 60s, i.e. the centers faced heavier competition from them in the 90s then they did in the 60s. There's really no way of proving that theory just by looking at numbers though. Centers averaging higher rebounding % in the 60s could be because maybe they are better then the centers in the 90s, or it could be because other positions got stronger while the centers stayed the same but as a result the centers % of rebounds went down. No way of telling, however, I think its pretty clear that by the time the 90s came, the perimeter players were much more athletic, and as a result were arguably better rebounders.

Guy,

You bring up valid points, as always. Still, many of today's generation just argue the "available rebound" theory, and completely ignore what Wilt, and to a lessor extent, Russell, accomplished.

As I have said before, you can throw out the sheer numbers, of which Wilt has the lion's share. The fact was, Wilt simply DOMINATED his peers. Regul8r posted another's take on Wilt. In it, the poster made the comment that Wilt led the NBA in rebounding, in his final season, and at age 36, at 18.6 rpg. A 25 year old Kareem finished 4th at 16.1 rpg that same season. Incidently, that 18.6 rpg was Wilt's WORST full season. Kareem went on to lead the NBA in rebounding a few years later, at 16.9 rpg. And, at age 36, Kareem averaged 7.3 rpg. On top of all of that, in Wilt's final post-season, he averaged 22.5 rpg (while Kareem, at the same age, had a post-season of 7.9 rpg.)

The author of that post also made the comment that before Wilt came into the NBA, the rebounding record was 23 rpg. Of course, Wilt had many seasons over that figure, including two at 27 rpg. AND, after Wilt retired, the rebounding marks dropped significantly. Rodman's 91-92 season of 18.7 is the highest since. In any case, I just don't see how anyone say that Rodman was a more dominant rebounder than Wilt...especially if you factor in the post-season.

[Abraham Lincoln]

You must ask yourself how many of the slightly above average players were conditioned enough to maintain the same high level of play 45-48 minutes at a blistering pace. How much of it is affected by missed jump shots? It would be interesting to see offensive & defensive rebound stats for the likes of Chamberlain & Russell, if possible.

[Alhazred]

You may be right about Rodman in the 60's. But my main point was that I seriously doubt that he would have started. But, yes, there were forwards who did not score much back then, too. Clyde Lee comes to mind.

I do agree that Rodman was the greatest rebounder of his era. He was getting 4-5 more rpg than his nearest competitor. And, at least in a few of his seasons, adjusted for pace, and then by minutes played, and he was the best ever. Here again, though, IMHO, he wouldn't have outrebounded Wilt or Russell back then. And, while Wilt and Russell elevated their rebounding in the post-season, Rodman's dropped dramatically.

It just amazes me, though, that there are some here, at least, that diminish Wilt's amazing rebounding records. The man won 11 rebounding titles in 14 years (and probably would have won his 12th had he not been injured one season.) And, the bottom line, was that he crushed his peers H2H.

Fair enough. Sorry if it sounded as if I was attacking Wilt, I actually do think he could have outrebounded Rodman if he wanted to, I just felt that you were judging him too harshly.

[alexandreben]

Good topic, I've always wanted to discuss this, what standard and which method is a better one to judge a better rebounder? in my opinion, the following check points need to be addressed when we judge who is a better rebounder:

1. Rebound numbers
e.g. the average rebound numbers, 30+ or 40+ rebounds performance, etc.
Pro: easy to see the result
Con: hard to compare players in different era, e.g. in 61-62 season, the league average rebounding per game was 40% more than season of 99-00.

2. TRB%
Total Rebound Percentage (available since the 1970-71 season in the NBA); the formula is 100 * (TRB * (Tm MP / 5)) / (MP * (Tm TRB + Opp TRB)). Total rebound percentage is an estimate of the percentage of available rebounds a player grabbed while he was on the floor.
e.g. Rodman's TRB% is the highest in NBA history, in fact, the top seven are Rodman, Wilt's TRB% in the last three seasons was averaged 19.4%, and I calculated Wilt's TRB% in 61-62 season which's 17.1%~18.1%.

Con: the huge flaw of TRB% is the minutes playing, the less minutes a player plays the better TRB% he will get, vice versa.
e.g. Rodman's TRB% peak was, in 94-95 season, amazingly reached 29.7% which's the highest in history, but I checked out the minutes he played in that season, was only 32 minutes per game and he only played 49 games, that's a huge difference with Wilt or Russell.
In his rebound peak back in 91-92 season, Roman averaged 18.7rbs(highest in this career) per game in 40.3 minutes while his TRB% dropped to 26.2%.
Rodman's carreer TRB% average 23.4% but his minutes play is only 31.7 minutes. Wilt's TRB% is lower than Rodman, but his minutes play is 45.8 minutes.

3. Rebound percentage of the whole game
e.g. there's total 65 rebounds in a game back to 60s, today is 45 rbs per game, even there's difference in the total rebounds per game, but if Wilt or Russell can get 19% of the total rebounds while Shaq or Howard get 15%, we can say that Wilt or Russell are better rebounders than Shaq or Howard.

Pro: even the number of rebounds per game in 60s was 40% more than today, by comparing rebound percentage we still can get a rough idea how to compare the rebound ability in different era.

Con: the playing minutes can make significant difference, e.g. Wilt play 48.5 minutes per game thus he can grabe much more rebounds of course; the average rebounding ability of the whole league can infuluence the statistics very much

4. The +/- rebound points
Even though we know how many rebounds or percentage a player has, or even we calculate offensive rebound and diffensive rebound seperately, say offensive rebound plays a more significant role here, but we don't know how many rebounds are really count and how many rebounds were obtained in the "trash time" of the game, so here's the thing:
a. normal defensive rebound score 1 point while offensive rebound which allows the team get a second chance of offense count +2 points, if it got in or a tip in, count as +3 points;
b. the defensive rebound that gains a fast break points score +3 points(e.g. Unseld usually pass the ball immediately after grabbing the rebound and lead to a fast break);
c. the very critical moment, both deffensive and offensive rebound count +4 points;
d. those deffensive or offensive rebound that lead the opponent to get an offensive opportunities may count as -2 points; e.g. the own goal situation or try to save the outbound ball and pass it to opponent accidently, etc.


Conclusion:
IMHO, method 3 and 4 are the better methods to judge who's the greatest rebounder ever. Method 4 is too difficult to get the data, so I choose method 3 "the rebound percentage" as the best standard.

At my own list, Russell and Rodman might have a better rebounding skill, but Wilt is a better rebounder, hence, in my list, I rank Wilt as the greatest rebounder ever.

[guy]

Guy,

You bring up valid points, as always. Still, many of today's generation just argue the "available rebound" theory, and completely ignore what Wilt, and to a lessor extent, Russell, accomplished.


Okay, thats true, and its wrong. However, you on the other hand usually ignore or at least greatly devalues the impact of the amount of rebounds that were available just to diminish the rebounding numbers of later years and/or prop up Wilt, so you're not much different. Yes, Wilt was great, very arguably the greatest rebounder ever, but taking everything into account, he wasn't head and shoulders above every great rebounder from any era regardless of what the raw stats show.

[alexandreben]

How would you compare Rodman (Pistons) to Satch Sanders?

http://hoopedia.nba.com/images/5/5c/Tom_sanders.gif
Sanders only avered 6.3 rbs per game during his career, even his peak season, he only got 9.5 rbs per game.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Should have clarified, I intended to compare them strictly as 1-1 defensive players.



http://www.nba.com/media/pistons/drodman_225_080408.jpg

[Fatal9]

Kareem btw averaged 17 rpg when the league average for rebounds was only 47.4, which is only about 3 rebounds off from the pace of the early 90s. He played only 41 minutes a game too. And he did it while averaging 28 ppg. The following year he averaged 17.7 rpg while averaging 35 ppg in the playoffs. In head to head vs. Chamberlain in '72, Wilt only outrebounded him by 11 rebounds in the entire series (less than 1 rpg per game), while Kareem was expected to score 35 ppg and all Wilt had to do was play defense and rebound. While Wilt was past his prime, Kareem also had not developed as strong physically as he would in his first couple of years with the Lakers (his best rebounding seasons) and he had to do more than just get the rebound and start a fast break. And even then, '72 was right there with Wilt's best rebounding seasons (probably because of his role with the team), and might even be more impressive rebounding wise than his '67 season if you run through the numbers. Kareem's Bucks teams were also usually slower than the other teams (much slower than Unseld's Bullets, Wilt's Lakers, Cowen's Celtics and so on). I don't think he's a top 5 rebounder but probably about top 10.

The GOAT rebounder is EASILY Rodman. It's not even a debate. He blows away everybody in TRB% and rebounding is the one stat that should be adjusted with pace, which significantly affects the availability of them. After Rodman, it's a crapshoot between Ben Wallace, Dwight Howard, Wilt, Russell, Moses, Thurmond and KG. Too hard to separate those guys from each other.

[alexandreben]

The GOAT rebounder is EASILY Rodman. It's not even a debate. He blows away everybody in TRB%
TRB% has a critical flaw which's the minutes play, Rodman plays much less time than Wilt, as I mentioned before in the early post, Rodman's carreer TRB% average 23.4% but his minutes play is only 31.7 minutes during his career. Wilt's TRB% is lower than Rodman, but his minutes play per game during career is 45.8 minutes.

[Fatal9]

TRB% has a critical flaw which's the minutes play, Rodman plays much less time than Wilt, as I mentioned before in the early post, Rodman's carreer TRB% average 23.4% but his minutes play is only 31.7 minutes during his career. Wilt's TRB% is lower than Rodman, but his minutes play per game during career is 45.8 minutes.
Rodman's best overall rebounding season came in '92 when he was averaging 40.3 minutes/game. His TRB% was 26.2%, which still blows away everyone. Secondly, I'm not sure using his career TRB% is exactly accurate when he spent his first 3-4 seasons a lot more on the perimeter. Regardless, this idea that his TRB% would decrease with more minutes is wrong considering he posted his third highest TRB% of his career while playing 40+ minutes (best for any season where he played 70+ games).

[jlauber]

Fatal9,

First of all, H2H, Wilt outrebounded Kareem in EVERY series, and in EVERY season. Secondly, Wilt outrebounded him, PER GAME, by a wide margin. Thirdly, and as even you stated, Wilt was nowhere near his prime. He had staggering rebound seasons long before that, but IMHO, his best was in the 66-67 season, when he averaged 24.2 rpg, in 45.5 mpg, in a league that averaged less than 60 rpg per team. And, then, in the post-season, he averaged 29.1 rpg, while thoroughly outrebounding Russell and Thurmond. And in the post-season before that, he was at 30.2.

I'm not saying Kareem wasn't a skilled rebounder, but he was NOT CLOSE to Chamberlain. As was pointed out by another poster, Wilt at age 36 averaged 18.6 rpg, and an even more impressive 22.5 rpg in the post-season. Kareem at the same age had 7.3 and 7.9 numbers.

As for Rodman, he gets rewarded for playing limited minutes, in LIMITED seasons. He won seven rebound titles, while Wilt won 11 (and would have won 12 in 69-70 had he not been injured.) And, I contend that he faced inferior centers (not all of them, but even the best were not great...and many were awful.)

AND, more importantly, Rodman was nothing more than average in the post-season. Meanwhile, as incredible as it was, Wilt and Russell became even greater rebounders in the post-season. I have mentioned Wilt's 1972 game five Final's performance, but two things stand out. One, he grabbed 27% of the available rebounds (29 out of 106), but even more importantly, he nearly outrebounded the entire Knick team, who only had 39. All with two severely injured wrists, and at age 35. In any case, Wilt went from a 22.9 rpg player to a 24.5 rpg player in the post-season, and generally DOMINATED the opposing centers in the process.

And that is the real bottom line. Wilt outrebounded EVERYBODY, and usually by HUGE margins.

[Meticode]

http://www.nbaloud.com/images/dennis-rodman1.gif

Dennis Rodman without a doubt.

[Pearleojam]

Great list G.O.A.T!

My personal favorite:




http://beat.bodoglife.com/wp-content/uploads/charles-barkley.jpg
5. Charles Barkley
- No player displayed more determination in attacking the glass then Barkley. In arguably the deepest era for centers of all-time Barkley out-rebounded them all. Not Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, Dikembe Mutombo or Shaquille O'Neal averaged as many caroms as the "Round Mound of Rebound" He won three straight SEC rebounding titles, won the NBA rebounding title in 1986-87 (second '86, '89, '90, '99) and led the postseason in '86, '90 and '93.

[HisAirness3]

My top 5 in no order is..........Russell, Chamberlain, Barkley, Moses and Rodman...

I think Barkley tends to get underrated in this subject. Do any of you know anyone that has ever had double-digit rebounding season for 15 straight seasons in the NBA? Barkley did it, Hakeem couldn't do it, Kareem couldn't do it, Shaq couldn't do it, etc. I think a lot of people forget how dominant of a rebounder The Mound of Rebound was.

[ShaqAttack3234]

The best rebounders ever IMO are.

1.Rodman
2.Moses Malone
3.Wilt
4.Russell

After that, they're very hard to rank.

[NBASTATMAN]

Wilt ..


Rodman was very good but he never wasted any energy on scoring.. Plus his playoff rebounding stats are very ordinary.....Overrated when you put him in the class of Wilt and other great rebounders..

[globarticles]

Just like what 90% of the people said, it's Dennis Rodman.

[alexandreben]

Rodman's best overall rebounding season came in '92 when he was averaging 40.3 minutes/game. His TRB% was 26.2%, which still blows away everyone. Secondly, I'm not sure using his career TRB% is exactly accurate when he spent his first 3-4 seasons a lot more on the perimeter. Regardless, this idea that his TRB% would decrease with more minutes is wrong considering he posted his third highest TRB% of his career while playing 40+ minutes (best for any season where he played 70+ games).

Rodman's rebound TRB% and TRB and minutes played as following, his rebounding peak started 91-92 season, you can see the minutes play influence the TRB%.

Season Age MP TRB%
1986-87 25 15.0 15.5
1987-88 26 26.2 18.6
1988-89 27 26.9 19.8
1989-90 28 29.0 19.0
1990-91 29 33.5 21.3
1991-92 30 40.3 26.2
1992-93 31 38.9 26.0
1993-94 32 37.8 25.7
1994-95 33 32.0 29.7
1995-96 34 32.6 26.6
1996-97 35 35.4 25.6
1997-98 36 35.7 24.1
1998-99 37 28.6 22.9
1999-00 38 32.4 23.6
Career 31.7 23.4

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

Dennis is the greatest rebounder since the Merger.

[julizaver]

Kareem btw averaged 17 rpg when the league average for rebounds was only 47.4, which is only about 3 rebounds off from the pace of the early 90s. He played only 41 minutes a game too. And he did it while averaging 28 ppg. The following year he averaged 17.7 rpg while averaging 35 ppg in the playoffs. In head to head vs. Chamberlain in '72, Wilt only outrebounded him by 11 rebounds in the entire series (less than 1 rpg per game), while Kareem was expected to score 35 ppg and all Wilt had to do was play defense and rebound. While Wilt was past his prime, Kareem also had not developed as strong physically as he would in his first couple of years with the Lakers (his best rebounding seasons) and he had to do more than just get the rebound and start a fast break. And even then, '72 was right there with Wilt's best rebounding seasons (probably because of his role with the team), and might even be more impressive rebounding wise than his '67 season if you run through the numbers. Kareem's Bucks teams were also usually slower than the other teams (much slower than Unseld's Bullets, Wilt's Lakers, Cowen's Celtics and so on). I don't think he's a top 5 rebounder but probably about top 10.

The GOAT rebounder is EASILY Rodman. It's not even a debate. He blows away everybody in TRB% and rebounding is the one stat that should be adjusted with pace, which significantly affects the availability of them. After Rodman, it's a crapshoot between Ben Wallace, Dwight Howard, Wilt, Russell, Moses, Thurmond and KG. Too hard to separate those guys from each other.

OK, first you mentioned 72 playoffs when Wilt outrebound Kareem by 11 boards, but it is not less than 1 average, it is almost 2 more for the series (6 games). And Wilt primary goal was to stop Kareem from dominating the series - his goal was to limit Kareem's offense and in doing so Wilt contested almost every Jabbar shots ( hooks, jump shots) leaving some of the boards to Hairston. Wilt made a lot of blocks and distracted a lot of Kareem shots - especcially in the last four games of the series - where Kareem made only 58 from 140 field goal attempts (41 % FG)- while Wilt blocked over 30 shots in that 4 games span. There is no doubt who is the superior rebounder in that case. And Wilt is greter rebounder than all other you mentioned.

And I would like to mentioned something to some ISH posters - do not think of Rodman as a center he plays in PF position - against Shaq in 1996 ECF Bulls used mostly 4 centers - Luc Longley, Bill Wennigton, James Edwards and John Salley - and very rare Rodman opposed Shaq - however in game 4 - when the four Bulls centers played only 28 minutes in total - Rodman was guarding O'Neal for a some periods of the game - in that game Shaq scored 28 points on 11 of 13 FGA.

Although Rodman was a rebounding expert, he was also very good defender especcially in the low post - due to his ability to find better positions under the basket, I watched almost every postseason game of Bulls second dynasty and Rodman was integral part of it - the Bulls lacked strong rebounder after Horace Grant departure and this was one of the reasons for their failure previous year.

That's why it is unfair to compare Rodman H2H with other centers - you can compare Rodman rebounding with that of Barkley for example as they happen to play against each other or Karl Malone, which Rodman guarded in 1997 and 1998 finals.

[julizaver]

Fatal9,

First of all, H2H, Wilt outrebounded Kareem in EVERY series, and in EVERY season. Secondly, Wilt outrebounded him, PER GAME, by a wide margin.


Although I am Wilt fan I want to be objective and in fact Wilt was outrebounded in the 1972 - 73 regular season games (6 games)by Kareem:

Wilt - 11 ppg, 16 rpg, 3.7 apg and 73,68 FG % (shooting 28 from 38)

Kareem - 29.5 ppg, 17.8 rpg, 4.7 apg - 45 % FG (shooting 81 from 180)

Yes, Wilt was past his 36 birthday at the time, but do a good job in forcing Jabbar into low FG %.

[alexandreben]

Although I am Wilt fan I want to be objective and in fact Wilt was outrebounded in the 1972 - 73 regular season games (6 games)by Kareem:

Wilt - 11 ppg, 16 rpg, 3.7 apg and 73,68 FG % (shooting 28 from 38)

Kareem - 29.5 ppg, 17.8 rpg, 4.7 apg - 45 % FG (shooting 81 from 180)

Yes, Wilt was past his 36 birthday at the time, but do a good job in forcing Jabbar into low FG %.
Thanks for the post, I am quite looking forward to your post of the recap of game by game statistics between Wilt and Kareem...

[jlauber]

Although I am Wilt fan I want to be objective and in fact Wilt was outrebounded in the 1972 - 73 regular season games (6 games)by Kareem:

Wilt - 11 ppg, 16 rpg, 3.7 apg and 73,68 FG % (shooting 28 from 38)

Kareem - 29.5 ppg, 17.8 rpg, 4.7 apg - 45 % FG (shooting 81 from 180)

Yes, Wilt was past his 36 birthday at the time, but do a good job in forcing Jabbar into low FG %.

I stand corrected.

I do believe that, at his peak, Kareem was one of the best rebounders in NBA history. However, he was probably only the 4th best rebounder of his era (Thurmond, Russell, and Wilt...although he never faced Russell.)

His rebounding skills dropped considerably, however, in the second half of his career. He later to exception to Chamberlain making the claim that he (Kareem) should have been a better rebounder during his career.

Incidently, Julizaver, and regarding the 72-73 post-season,...Thurmond averaged 13.2 rpg, Kareem was at 16.2 rpg, and Wilt was at 22.5...all in his final season.

And as dominant as Wilt was in the regular season, he was phenomenal in the playoffs. Russell did put up slightly higher numbers in the post-season, but as we have alluded to, Chamberlain outrebounded him H2H in every post-season series.

Rodman was certainly the best rebounder of his era...and was even more dominant against his peers, at least in several seasons, than what Wilt was to his. Still, in the post-season, Rodman became very ordinary, while Chamberlain elevated his play beyond his already staggering regular season numbers.

[julizaver]

Thanks for the post, I am quite looking forward to your post of the recap of game by game statistics between Wilt and Kareem...

OK, I will try to do it today - and will decide if to create a seperate thread or add this data to one of the previous.

[Shih508]

whoever said chamberlain and russel are better rebounders than rodman is just a stat whore who knows shxt about bball

they both played before 3 point line was introduced, that means there's virtually no long rebound in their era, all the reb they got were the shots missed under the basket which they can easily get their hands on by just camping under the basket, while rodman had to get his rebs all over the floor!

this is no comparison!

any all time great rebounder after 1979 is more legit than russel or chamberlain as the greatest rebounder

/thread NOOBs

[IInvented]

Dennis Rodman.. u can't argue that.. he went after EVERY rebound.. if u disagree then u deserve to get shot..

[Jailblazers7]

Rodman's ability to rebound is as amazing to me as MJ's ability to score. His positioning, commitment, timing, and anticipation are all great. He always had a sense of where the ball would come off the rim and had great timing when going up to get it.

[phoenix18]

Rodman's ability to rebound is as amazing to me as MJ's ability to score. His positioning, commitment, timing, and anticipation are all great. He always had a sense of where the ball would come off the rim and had great timing when going up to get it.

I heard he had a device, surgically implanted in his hands that made grabbing boards easy.

[Psileas]

whoever said chamberlain and russel are better rebounders than rodman is just a stat whore who knows shxt about bball

they both played before 3 point line was introduced, that means there's virtually no long rebound in their era, all the reb they got were the shots missed under the basket which they can easily get their hands on by just camping under the basket, while rodman had to get his rebs all over the floor!

this is no comparison!

any all time great rebounder after 1979 is more legit than russel or chamberlain as the greatest rebounder

/thread NOOBs

And yet, there's no difference among the best rebounding %'s after the inclusion of the 3, even if you take out Rodman. First of all, the 3-pointer was not a popular shot in the 80's, so if you want to bash Wilt and Russell for not playing in the 3-point era, you'd better take out of the conversation all rebounders from the 80's as well. Heck, watch some games from the 60's and 70's and you'll notice that there are still plenty of shots taken from not-so-close distances and there are a lot of "long rebounds" available. Also, note that the fast pace of the game took plenty of rebounding opportunities from big guys.

Even so however, even if you start counting from the 90's and on, the leading rebounders still don't have worse rebounding rates. The more you shoot the 3, the more you oblige your opponent to follow you to the perimeter and the more you open up space for the big man to move and rebound better.

Plus, since you claim that long rebounds affect smaller, quicker guys (which they do), how does this affect Rodman negatively? Though he did camp under the basket a lot, it was easier for him to move away from it than it was for a big center, especially since Rodman started his career as a partially perimeter player and knew how to move and react quickly.

[Jailblazers7]

I heard he had a device, surgically implanted in his hands that made grabbing boards easy.

Yeah I heard its only side effect was it made him mentally unstable. It split his persona in 2 and forced them to marry each other.

[Jailblazers7]

And yet, there's no difference among the best rebounding %'s after the inclusion of the 3, even if you take out Rodman. First of all, the 3-pointer was not a popular shot in the 80's, so if you want to bash Wilt and Russell for not playing in the 3-point era, you'd better take out of the conversation all rebounders from the 80's as well. Heck, watch some games from the 60's and 70's and you'll notice that there are still plenty of shots taken from not-so-close distances and there are a lot of "long rebounds" available. Also, note that the fast pace of the game took plenty of rebounding opportunities from big guys.

Even so however, even if you start counting from the 90's and on, the leading rebounders still don't have worse rebounding rates. The more you shoot the 3, the more you oblige your opponent to follow you to the perimeter and the more you open up space for the big man to move and rebound better.

Plus, since you claim that long rebounds affect smaller, quicker guys (which they do), how does this affect Rodman negatively? Though he did camp under the basket a lot, it was easier for him to move away from it than it was for a big center, especially since Rodman started his career as a partially perimeter player and knew how to move and react quickly.

Something I did noticed just quickly glancing at stats from some of the premier players in older decades is a lot of their shooting %'s were pretty low. A lot of percentages in the 30's to low 40's. It could have had an effect on the number of rebounds available during the course of a game. Not something I know based on fact just somethign I noticed at a quick glance.

[raptorfan_dr07]

Take your pick:

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa258/thefreshprince101/Sports%20Pictures/Wilt-Russell.jpg

[julizaver]

whoever said chamberlain and russel are better rebounders than rodman is just a stat whore who knows shxt about bball

they both played before 3 point line was introduced, that means there's virtually no long rebound in their era, all the reb they got were the shots missed under the basket which they can easily get their hands on by just camping under the basket, while rodman had to get his rebs all over the floor!

this is no comparison!

any all time great rebounder after 1979 is more legit than russel or chamberlain as the greatest rebounder

/thread NOOBs

:) Maybe you were born after 1979 :) - and I hardly doubt you ever watched Rodman played. And I am sure you have never watched a game form 70's.

[U got Served]

Moses Malone= greatest offensive rebounder

[Fatal9]

Rodman's rebound TRB% and TRB and minutes played as following, his rebounding peak started 91-92 season, you can see the minutes play influence the TRB%.

Season Age MP TRB%
1986-87 25 15.0 15.5
1987-88 26 26.2 18.6
1988-89 27 26.9 19.8
1989-90 28 29.0 19.0
1990-91 29 33.5 21.3
1991-92 30 40.3 26.2
1992-93 31 38.9 26.0
1993-94 32 37.8 25.7
1994-95 33 32.0 29.7
1995-96 34 32.6 26.6
1996-97 35 35.4 25.6
1997-98 36 35.7 24.1
1998-99 37 28.6 22.9
1999-00 38 32.4 23.6
Career 31.7 23.4
What are you trying to show here and how does this go with your point?

Rodman's highest minutes played season at 40.3 mpg, he had the third highest TRB% of his career (highest for any season he played 70+ games) and the highest of all-time. And I'm suppose to think he wouldn't rebound at the same rate if he played more minutes like you're suggesting in earlier posts? He's already proven it, there is nothing to argue here. He played 40+ minutes and pulled down rebounds at an absurd rate, and no different than the rate he got them at when he played 35 minutes. The only year where his TRB% is higher than normal is the year he was with the Spurs and IIRC he didn't even play half the season, and the fact that it was a different team would have contributed to the deviation. Otherwise his rebounding is always in the 23-26% range, no matter if he played 32 minutes or 40.

[72-10]

Could anyone name some players who could tip the ball to themselves like Rodman?

[72-10]

As much as I respect your opinions...I just don't think this debate is even close. Yes, Russell had a game seven with 40 rebounds...but it was not against Wilt. In the four game seven's between the two, Wilt won three of them and tied in the other. Not only that, but in the clinching game five win in the 66-67 ECF's Chamberlain outrebounded Russell, 36-21.

Once again, I can find a TON of games in which Chamberlain just annihilated Russell on the glass, and only a very few in which Russell enjoyed much of an edge.

In their 40 rebound games each other, here is how it went...

Russell 40, Wilt 25
Wilt 43, Russell 29
Wilt 55, Russell 19
Wilt 43, Russell 26
Wilt 40, Russell 17
Wilt 42, Russell 25
Wilt 41, Russell 29 (playoffs)
Wilt 42, Russell 18

And, Chamberlain held an incredible 23-4 edge in 35+ rebound games.

Yes, but the Celtics were the best rebounding team of all time, Russell is shorter and weighs less than Wilt, Wilt didn't have other rebounders on his team, and Wilt played the whole game.

[Psileas]

Yes, but the Celtics were the best rebounding team of all time, Russell is shorter and weighs less than Wilt, Wilt didn't have other rebounders on his team, and Wilt played the whole game.

Not really. The Celtics' rebounders were nothing special apart from Russell. Neiher Heinsohn nor Sanders were great rebounders for their PF position, Havlicek as a SF was so-so, Cousy was pretty good for his size, but still only a PG, Sam Jones was average when given decently high minutes.