Anyone else think the Cavs are overrated?

[B-Easy]

People seem to be under the impression that Lebron finally has this great supporting cast, WRONG!

Do people really think Jamison is a little worse than guys like Gasol/Amare? His impact on a game is not half of that

Theyve been needing monster games from Lebron all year to beat anyone from contenders to lottery teams.

A truly deep and stacked team doesnt go 1-6 w/o their best player.

And Jamison/Shaq is a bad frontcourt defensively. Mo/Parker is a bad backcourt defensively.


Theyre not getting past the Magic.

[iamgine]

okay.

[jasonresno]

Where LeBron goes, so do the Cavs. If James has an off night-they lose. Some "team".

[DukeDelonte13]

http://imgur.com/XGOjs.jpg



haha had to post this pic. I love it.

[Lebron23]

I beg to disagree. Cavs are no longer a one man team. I expect the Cavs to beat the Magic in the playoffs because the Cavs have one of the deepest benches in the league.

[RaceBannana]

Nope... but if they fail to get the title, all the things you mentioned will be brought up....

[ILLsmak]

People seem to be under the impression that Lebron finally has this great supporting cast, WRONG!

Do people really think Jamison is a little worse than guys like Gasol/Amare? His impact on a game is not half of that

Theyve been needing monster games from Lebron all year to beat anyone from contenders to lottery teams.

A truly deep and stacked team doesnt go 1-6 w/o their best player.

And Jamison/Shaq is a bad frontcourt defensively. Mo/Parker is a bad backcourt defensively.


Theyre not getting past the Magic.

Jamison scores and they are counting on team defense to handle his inability to play D well. I dunno... I still would start Hickson and bring Jamison off the bench. I dunno why they don't play him at SF sometimes.

I do think the Cavs are overrated, but they were underrated until awhile ago. You know how hype goes. People act like they are the greatest team ever... but really they ARE one of those most complete teams that I have ever seen. Sure, if LeBron has an off game they might be in trouble but Bron rarely has truly off games (because he can get to the rim and pass as well as shoot.) He might get injured, but that's unlikely, too.

Jamison has been impressive, as has Parker (maybe Parker moreso...) I really think they have the deepest rotation as well as big man rotation, and that's gonna go a long way. They can put a lineup on the floor to match up with anyone or exploit anyone.

Players that are capable of getting 20:

Shaq
Mo
Jamison

Players that impact the game beyond points:

Andy
Z
Delonte

X Factor players who aren't needed but usually show up and do something, thus making the Cavs even better:

Parker
Moon
Gibson (when he plays)
Hickson (when he plays)
Powe (is he even on the playoff roster? lol... ) <--- Edit: Guess not. Jawad... he's not really an impact player, though...

They are stacked. Not with all stars like the Lakers, but they are just deep. They are way deeper than Orlando, despite what someone might tell you, but yes... it all hinges on LeBron. I think you should trust him by now.

-Smak

[JohnnySic]

They are having trouble with the freaking Chicago Bulls. As a Celtics fan, the more I see of the Cavs, the less worried I am. But go ahead and keep assuming about who's gonna be in the ECF...

[lukekarts]

Where LeBron goes, so do the Cavs. If James has an off night-they lose. Some "team".

This is true.

If LeBron has a big night every night against the Magic, the Cavs will progress. If not, I think they will struggle. The Cavs got exposed as an average team when they rested LeBron.

[DukeDelonte13]

Jamison scores and they are counting on team defense to handle his inability to play D well. I dunno... I still would start Hickson and bring Jamison off the bench. I dunno why they don't play him at SF sometimes.

I do think the Cavs are overrated, but they were underrated until awhile ago. You know how hype goes. People act like they are the greatest team ever... but really they ARE one of those most complete teams that I have ever seen. Sure, if LeBron has an off game they might be in trouble but Bron rarely has truly off games (because he can get to the rim and pass as well as shoot.) He might get injured, but that's unlikely, too.

Jamison has been impressive, as has Parker (maybe Parker moreso...) I really think they have the deepest rotation as well as big man rotation, and that's gonna go a long way. They can put a lineup on the floor to match up with anyone or exploit anyone.

Players that are capable of getting 20:

Shaq
Mo
Jamison

Players that impact the game beyond points:

Andy
Z
Delonte

X Factor players who aren't needed but usually show up and do something, thus making the Cavs even better:

Parker
Moon
Gibson (when he plays)
Hickson (when he plays)
Powe (is he even on the playoff roster? lol... ) <--- Edit: Guess not. Jawad... he's not really an impact player, though...

They are stacked. Not with all stars like the Lakers, but they are just deep. They are way deeper than Orlando, despite what someone might tell you, but yes... it all hinges on LeBron. I think you should trust him by now.

-Smak



Cavs do play Jamison at SF. They did quite a bit during the season. They probably will sometime in the playoffs too.

[ILLsmak]

They are having trouble with the freaking Chicago Bulls. As a Celtics fan, the more I see of the Cavs, the less worried I am. But go ahead and keep assuming about who's gonna be in the ECF...

^ Are they really having trouble? How many minutes have they lead? Just saying... that series has seemed like a snoozer so far.

Even last game with Shaq and Jamison in foul trouble for a lot of it, they still coasted. Sure, you probably think because the score was close it was a battle, but I don't think it was. I didn't doubt that they'd win. The Bulls played very well, I think, but still lost. That's demoralizing.

-Smak

[ILLsmak]

Cavs do play Jamison at SF. They did quite a bit during the season. They probably will sometime in the playoffs too.

I mean it should be their rotation... I really think they need to find a way to get JJ minutes. That's the only way I can think of. But it might push Moon out. Still, JJ is better than Moon. They are gonna need JJ against the bigger front courts...

But that's just how I feel.

-Smak

[zORi]

^ Are they really having trouble? How many minutes have they lead? Just saying... that series has seemed like a snoozer so far.

Even last game with Shaq and Jamison in foul trouble for a lot of it, they still coasted. Sure, you probably think because the score was close it was a battle, but I don't think it was. I didn't doubt that they'd win. The Bulls played very well, I think, but still lost. That's demoralizing.

-Smak

Derrick Rose had a sub-par night, and so did Deng (but then again, he is sub-par, so that's not saying much).

But I do agree with you though, teams do tend to downplay teams who don't stand much of a chance, that's just how it happens.

I also agree, though, that the Cavs absolutely need to have Lebron do well to win games against good teams. Luckily for them, though, he can do that night in and night out.

I always felt that trade for Antawn Jamison was severely overrated, but maybe I'm wrong...

[ILLsmak]

Derrick Rose had a sub-par night, and so did Deng (but then again, he is sub-par, so that's not saying much).

But I do agree with you though, teams do tend to downplay teams who don't stand much of a chance, that's just how it happens.

I also agree, though, that the Cavs absolutely need to have Lebron do well to win games against good teams. Luckily for them, though, he can do that night in and night out.

I always felt that trade for Antawn Jamison was severely overrated, but maybe I'm wrong...

I'm luke warm. He definitely changes the defense, but I really think he exposes the Cav's defense. As long as Shaq is there to get his back, it's cool, but Rose got to the rim at will when Shaq was out with foul trouble.

If Jamison can get 20+ points in a few big games, it's cool. But if he doesn't get 20 on good finishes and long Js it's hard to say he's worth it. Oh, and he's a pretty good passer, too. Still rather have JJ, all things considered. Flame me.

-Smak

[Diesel J]

People seem to be under the impression that Lebron finally has this great supporting cast, WRONG!

Do people really think Jamison is a little worse than guys like Gasol/Amare? His impact on a game is not half of that

Theyve been needing monster games from Lebron all year to beat anyone from contenders to lottery teams.

A truly deep and stacked team doesnt go 1-6 w/o their best player.

And Jamison/Shaq is a bad frontcourt defensively. Mo/Parker is a bad backcourt defensively.




The thing with the Cavs that's different from say the lakers or orlando is that Dwight and KObe can both have god awful bad games and their team can still win against playoff type teams whereas it's true, if lebron has a truly bad game by his standards, the Cavs will lose most of the time.



Theyre not getting past the Magic.

we'll have to wait for that day to come

[Take Your Lumps]

Back-to-back NBA Regular Season Champs! :bowdown:

[B-Easy]

The depth argument is part of the reason why theyre overrated ..... Having the best 8th-12th mans wont mean much..Gibson, Telfair, Powe, etc wont have much of an impact. Much better to have talent at the top like LA or Orlando.

Just because you have a guy that can get 40-10-10 any game doesnt make you a great team. Just look at last years 66 win team that got exposed.

Biggest indicator of how good a team is .. is how well they play with their best player out or with their best player on the bench.

Magic, Lakers ... even Denver, Portland, Dallas, look more impressive than the Cavs w/o their best player. It just shows you plug in Lebron on any playoff team and they possibly end up with the best record.

Cavs being a stacked team is an illusion .. they took a step forward offensively but a step back on defense.

[Shax]

Cavs don't win most games when Lebron sits, that's just sad considering their record. I know the team is built around him, but still.

[Lebron23]

Back-to-back NBA Regular Season Champs! :bowdown:

1 week avatar bet. Cavs beat the Magic in the playoffs. Last year team overachieved in the Regular Season. The 2008-09 Cavaliers struggled againts the elite teams.

2010 Cavaliers would sweep the 2009 Cavaliers in a best of 7 series.

:pimp: :pimp: :pimp:

[Diesel J]

Cavs don't win most games when Lebron sits, that's just sad considering their record. I know the team is built around him, but still.


That's because Lebron is the best player and the most impactful player in the game but at some point, you're going to need that true second fiddle all star player. See, with the lakers, Gasol is the best 2nd fiddle player in the league. Kobe routinely has god awful type games but the lakers can still win because of Gasol for the most part. he's basically a true franchise type of player just taking a backseat to Kobe. I wouldn't call anyone on the Cavs right now outside of lebron a true franchise player

[Papaya Petee]

They are having trouble with the freaking Chicago Bulls. As a Celtics fan, the more I see of the Cavs, the less worried I am. But go ahead and keep assuming about who's gonna be in the ECF...

Lmao you shouldn't be, because your going to be watching Miami Heat play the Cavaliers soon enough. But keep assuming things.

[Papaya Petee]

1 week avatar bet. Cavs beat the Magic in the playoffs. Last year team overachieved in the Regular Season. The 2008-09 Cavaliers struggled againts the elite teams.

2010 Cavaliers would sweep the 2009 Cavaliers in a best of 7 series.

:pimp: :pimp: :pimp:


That is clearly not what you said last year. At the end of the regular season last year you had posts saying.

LeBron James 1x Finals MVP

[hermanator]

If Lebron doesn't have a good series, they won't go anywhere. He's still relied on too much that the other players won't be able to take up the slack. Their bench doesn't do much to help.

[LA_Showtime]

They aren't overrated. They're still the best team in the NBA at this point, although they'll have a lot of trouble with Orlando because of their inability to defend the pick and roll. Offensively, they're one of the best teams in the league.

[zORi]

The thing with the Cavs that's different from say the lakers or orlando is that Dwight and KObe can both have god awful bad games and their team can still win against playoff type teams whereas it's true, if lebron has a truly bad game by his standards, the Cavs will lose most of the time.




we'll have to wait for that day to come

That's all I'm saying.

If Lebron scores under 20 (without having a sky high assist total) it's hard to see them winning any type of playoff game. Luckily for them, Lebron is a very consistent player.

[chazzy]

The only thing slightly overrated is their defense, it doesn't look as good as it used to. Otherwise, they're the real deal.

[LA_Showtime]

The only thing slightly overrated is their defense, it doesn't look as good as it used to. Otherwise, they're the real deal.

They're noticeably worse on defense, but they're also noticeably better on offense. The Lakers won last year with a great offense and good defense. Cavs can do the same.

[ninephive]

Back-to-back NBA Regular Season Champs! :bowdown:
Haha, they grabbed this "achievement" from the likes of the Mavs & Suns. Whoo!:oldlol:

[Kurosawa0]

Theyre not getting past the Magic.

That team has just as many weaknesses, if not more.

[mlh1981]

They played to the level of their competition this year, really for the first time. Used to be the Cavs would lose on a regular basis to the elite, and then just crush the mediocre teams. Not so much anymore.

I think we can win in a variety of ways. I'll take this squad over the '07 one that had freakin' Eric Snow/Larry Hughes/Drew Gooden.

Of course, until they win the 'chip, there will be doubters and skeptics. I realize that's part of the deal. After this round, we will truly start to see and understand what sort of impact their recent deals will have had.

[zORi]

That is clearly not what you said last year. At the end of the regular season last year you had posts saying.

LeBron James 1x Finals MVP

LOL, this is why I don't ever claim things before they happen....

Even if I have utter 100% faith that they will.

[lakerspng]

I don't see how some analysts think they're far and away the best team either... not even close.

They're a solid team that relies way too much on the continued excellence of one player.

I think both the Celtics and Orlando have a shot to take them down in the east and whomever gets to the Finals from the West, should they make it there, I think has at least a 50/50 shot to beat them.

I do not see them beating the lakers 4 out of 7 games in a series. Even if Lebron averages 35, 8 and 8 for the series.

[B-Easy]

That team has just as many weaknesses, if not more.

like what? their only weakness is the Lakers..its a horrible matchup for them because they have bigs that can guard Howard 1 on 1 and Howard alone cant hold Gasol/Odom/Bynum.

But theyre the #1 defensive team this season .. they match up great with Cleveland.

[catch24]

Of course the Cavs are overrated. I mean they ONLY won 61 games...

[Kurosawa0]

like what? their only weakness is the Lakers..its a horrible matchup for them because they have bigs that can guard Howard 1 on 1 and Howard alone cant hold Gasol/Odom/Bynum.

But theyre the #1 defensive team this season .. they match up great with Cleveland.

They still live with the three, they have a very questionable go-to guy in Vince Carter and they still have no option when it comes to guarding LeBron James. If you want to pick the Magic to beat the Cavs, fine. I just wouldn't act like it's a forgone conclusion. The Cavs matchup very well with Orlando now.

[madmax]

well, they are probably not gonna sweep all of the opponents on their way to the title, that's for sure...

[Kurosawa0]

Well, let's put it this way. LeBron has never had a supporting cast to the level that Kobe has now. Still, the players LeBron has behind him now are far and away better than any others he's had before. The Cavs made it to the Finals in 2007, damn near beat Boston in 2008 and were contenders last year. LeBron has done a lot with far inferior teams to what he was now. So, what can he do with the best team he's ever had?

[DukeDelonte13]

best record, best player, one of the deepest benches, i'd say they aren't really that overrated. Maybe a little bit.

[Indian guy]

They won't get past Orlando barring a major defensive improvement before they make it to the ECF. It's all about their defense.

[strike first]

I see things going the same as they did last year for the cavs

[west]

Yes, they are.

[B-Easy]

Of course the Cavs are overrated. I mean they ONLY won 61 games...

yea but why did they win 61?

Ive see Lebron take over too many games this season to be fooled again.
Even against lottery teams hes had to drop 30+ with a near triple double and take over in the 4th.

Im a lot more impressed with the Lakers .. who have been winning games despite Kobe lately. And the Magic, who have been the best team lately..they can win games with Vince or Dwight struggling

[Kurosawa0]

yea but why did they win 61?

Ive see Lebron take over too many games this season to be fooled again.
Even against lottery teams hes had to drop 30+ with a near triple double and take over in the 4th.

Im a lot more impressed with the Lakers .. who have been winning games despite Kobe lately. And the Magic, who have been the best team lately..they can win games with Vince or Dwight struggling

Michael won the scoring title in each of the Bulls' six championship seasons. They had options, but Michael had to score for them to win several playoff games.

[cavsfanatic]

They are having trouble with the freaking Chicago Bulls. As a Celtics fan, the more I see of the Cavs, the less worried I am. But go ahead and keep assuming about who's gonna be in the ECF...
:roll: you got some nerve lmao

[Diesel J]

Im not worried. There is a big difference between this years Cavs and the one from last season. Both won 60 games in the reg season but the ones from last year in the reg season struggled vs Lakers and orlando but not really with the celtics. This years team played up aand down to their comp but they didn't struggle at all with the elites.

Cavs were 2-0 vs lakers and 2-1 vs Orlando in the games lebron played. Those are the only 2 teams Cavs should be focused on.

[catch24]

yea but why did they win 61?

Ive see Lebron take over too many games this season to be fooled again.
Even against lottery teams hes had to drop 30+ with a near triple double and take over in the 4th.

Im a lot more impressed with the Lakers .. who have been winning games despite Kobe lately. And the Magic, who have been the best team lately..they can win games with Vince or Dwight struggling

Kobe does the same thing.

[zORi]

Kobe does the same thing.

Not nearly as often anymore.

Kobe's still the man, but he's had a few games where it's clear he wasn't gunning 100%, mainly because he doesn't have to anymore.

In the postseason, I'm sure he will, though.

[Micku]

Last year they were overrated. They were the best at beating the weak-mediocre teams, but could not beat the elite teams. This year is different. They are more stack.

[Iverson25otts]

I don't think the Cavs are overrated. I just feel they think they are the defending champs. Lebron flexin his muscles over rebounds...your playing the Bulls. Its not like your playing a championship team. And Mike Brown needs to use his bench. He only used it last night because Shaq got into foul trouble.

[dr8ked]

I don't see how some analysts think they're far and away the best team either... not even close.

They're a solid team that relies way too much on the continued excellence of one player.

I think both the Celtics and Orlando have a shot to take them down in the east and whomever gets to the Finals from the West, should they make it there, I think has at least a 50/50 shot to beat them.

I do not see them beating the lakers 4 out of 7 games in a series. Even if Lebron averages 35, 8 and 8 for the series.


Man, boston would've lost the 1st game if it were not for the heat turnovers in the 4th qtr.if they were playing the Cavs, that wouldn't happen. if you look at the games they lost when james was out, except for the last game of the season, they lost by 2 points in most games including the game in chicago which mo lit rose for 35 points. you have to take into account that James/Jamison/Shaq only played 3 games together before shaq got injured and right now they are trying to find a chemistry btw the 3 of them but they are still getting the job done. by the time the series is over they should've got it together, just like at the beggining of the season when they were trying to fit shaq in their roster and lost 2 games in a row but went on winning streak once they worked the chemistry out. At that time everybody said the Cavs were done since their offense and defense looked horrible. The bulls beat them too during this time.. By the time this series is Over, they'll know how to play together and it will be tough to beat them.

Ya'll keep talking about Shaq and Jamison, but keep forgetting they have james to carry them through if the going gets tough. Game 1 of this series is a good example, james just coasted and watched as everybody was getting their shots in, last night foul trouble led to Shaq and Jamison not being able to contribute and james just took over the game and closed it out. Expect to see more of that.

[dr8ked]

yea but why did they win 61?

Ive see Lebron take over too many games this season to be fooled again.
Even against lottery teams hes had to drop 30+ with a near triple double and take over in the 4th.

Im a lot more impressed with the Lakers .. who have been winning games despite Kobe lately. And the Magic, who have been the best team lately..they can win games with Vince or Dwight struggling


How many games can the Magic win without dwight playing though ?? The key to lakers success is Gasol and not Kobe as many have come to believe.

[B-Easy]

Kobe does the same thing.

eh not really .. ive seen Kobe being the best player on the Lakers on some nights. Ive seen Gasol be the best player on other nights, Bynum on other nights.

Lebron needs to be the best player every night.
He cant struggle like Kobe has lately and have other guys pick up the slack..it just hasnt happened.

The Cavs are 1-6 w/o Lebron for a reason.

[niko]

I don't think they are overrated, i think their opponents they may face (Lakers, Magic, Mavs) are being taken too lightly by the national media. Cleveland got better, but Orlando is still a *****. I think people forget about Orlando and assume Cleveland has a straight walk to the finals.

[RealKnowledge]

eh not really .. ive seen Kobe being the best player on the Lakers on some nights. Ive seen Gasol be the best player on other nights, Bynum on other nights.

Lebron needs to be the best player every night.
He cant struggle like Kobe has lately and have other guys pick up the slack..it just hasnt happened.

The Cavs are 1-6 w/o Lebron for a reason.
Thats why Jamison and Mo williams had better game 1's then him huh? :rolleyes:

[dr8ked]

I don't see how some analysts think they're far and away the best team either... not even close.

They're a solid team that relies way too much on the continued excellence of one player.

I think both the Celtics and Orlando have a shot to take them down in the east and whomever gets to the Finals from the West, should they make it there, I think has at least a 50/50 shot to beat them.

I do not see them beating the lakers 4 out of 7 games in a series. Even if Lebron averages 35, 8 and 8 for the series.


If anyhting has been been proven this year is the Lakers bigs struggle against the Cavs Bigs, where do you think the Notion of Lakers bigs being soft came from?? :violin:.. Lakers were playing good Basketball untill Christmas day when the Cavs exposed them.. if James averages 35/8/8 in a series against the Lakers, lakers will lose..

[PistonsFan#21]

Derrick Rose had a sub-par night, and so did Deng (but then again, he is sub-par, so that's not saying much).

But I do agree with you though, teams do tend to downplay teams who don't stand much of a chance, that's just how it happens.

I also agree, though, that the Cavs absolutely need to have Lebron do well to win games against good teams. Luckily for them, though, he can do that night in and night out.

I always felt that trade for Antawn Jamison was severely overrated, but maybe I'm wrong...

So 20pts and 6rebs is considered sub par for Deng? Did you excpect him to have 25pts and 10 rebs? If anything i think Bulls overachieved yesterday with Noah's performance on offense.

[dr8ked]

So 20pts and 6rebs is considered sub par for Deng? Did you excpect him to have 25pts and 10 rebs? If anything i think Bulls overachieved yesterday with Noah's performance on offense.


And this was because of foul trouble against the Cavs bigs. Shaq mainly, i still think if Brown would've played Varejao and Hickson togther for a while instead of Big Z, noah could've not been cleaning up the offensive Boards like he did. If they lose, blame it on Mike brown, he has too much personell and he's not using it Correctly. I think the next game, he should start Shaq and Hickson together and let Jamison come off the bench.

[RJChPD]

Typical ISH.

[LA_Showtime]

eh not really .. ive seen Kobe being the best player on the Lakers on some nights. Ive seen Gasol be the best player on other nights, Bynum on other nights.

Lebron needs to be the best player every night.
He cant struggle like Kobe has lately and have other guys pick up the slack..it just hasnt happened.

The Cavs are 1-6 w/o Lebron for a reason.

Actually, I disagree here. If the Cavs play defense, they can afford to have LeBron play poorly. Problem is their defense has really slipped so they need LeBron's scoring. Says more about the team's lack of D than their lack of talent.

[HeyMarkus]

if you look at any team right now with hopes (from hype) of seeing a flawless, great team youll determine theyre overrated. stop looking for the next great team all the time it doesnt just happen like that. the cavs are the best team in the league right now, though that is true, overrated or not. If you think different you're overrating the other team.

[King Lebron LBJ]

What on earth makes the Cavs overrated? because many have them as the favourites to win it all? hmm

Cavs deserve to be the main favourites due to how well they have played this year and who they have on the roster. This team has upgraded alot from last seasons roster. Bringing in Jamison, Shaq, Parker along with Powe and Moon. Grantes Powe may not play alot in the playoffs but he is an option.

Cavs got beat by the Magic last season, granted and Magic were the better team and deserved to win that series. This season I do think things will be different due to the clear weaknesses the Cavs have fixes against this Orlando team.

Having a guy who can body up Shaq will be huge just as having a guy like Jamison to go toe to toe with Rashard Lewis which is just as important as the Dwight/Shaq match-up.

Fact is even with guys like Ben Wallace, Sasha, Wally all playing decent minutes in that playoff series last year the Cavs were in that series. People who think that series was an ass kicking clearly didn't watch that series. That series was won by a few last second plays. Either team could of won that series.

Magic do seem improved like that Cavs but it remains to be seen how well Vince will do in this series and if they will miss Hedo's length against this current Cavs team. Cavs have clearly improved alot and with the way L.A has been playing and the way they struggle with our bigs calling the Cavs the favourites is not overrating them it is just telling it how it is.

I expect Cavs to win it all but that doesn't mean we don't have weaknesses like the other do. Magic and Lakers also have a good shot at winning it all.

One last thing, I hate the logic that because Cavs were 1-6 without Lebron that makes them overrated...seriously WTF. Cavs are built around Lebron so clearly when you take him out the whole team changes due to the way they have been built around him. That 1-6 record is a stupid stat to bring up more so when you consider Cavs had other major players missing when Lebron was out too.

[crisoner]

Yes

[B-Easy]

like i said, they fell off defensively.

More of a 1 man team than people think.

[King Lebron LBJ]

like i said, they fell off defensively.

More of a 1 man team than people think.

:rolleyes: typical post when a team might actually lose a game..

[B-Easy]

:rolleyes: typical post when a team might actually lose a game..

how so? this thread was made after a Cavs win ..

Their bad defense right now is not a fluke .. their pick and roll defense is worst with Shaq.. Jamison, Mo, Parker , theyre just bad defensive players getting big minutes.

They've been the best regular season team because Lebron is the best in the world. But in the playoffs 1 man cant get it done.

[King Lebron LBJ]

how so? this thread was made after a Cavs win ..

Their bad defense right now is not a fluke .. their pick and roll defense is worst with Shaq.. Jamison, Mo, Parker , theyre just bad defensive players getting big minutes.

They've been the best regular season team because Lebron is the best in the world. But in the playoffs 1 man cant get it done.

You wouldn' of bumped this up if cavs were winning.

Cavs have struggled all game which happens in a series like this, overall cavs team offensive balence has been strong. everybody picked cavs in 5 anyway. Cavs do need to improve defensively but it will come...overall their defense has been soild.

[B-Easy]

You wouldn' of bumped this up if cavs were winning.

Cavs have struggled all game which happens in a series like this, overall cavs team offensive balence has been strong. everybody picked cavs in 5 anyway. Cavs do need to improve defensively but it will come...overall their defense has been soild.

offensive balance?

Lebron needed 40-8-8 in Game 2 to get this team by the 8th seeded Bulls.

Hell finish with a similar statline tonight, and it might not be enough

[ap3604]

Overrated? Hmmm

I would have to say any team that can win 60 or more games in the regular season def deserves a good amount of respect in the postseason as potential champs.

The only thing that bug's me about watching the Cav's is the absolute craziness the media has for LeBron (not really the Cav's or James fault though). I had to actually mute the 1st two games of the Cavs/Bulls series since the LeBron talk just wouldn't stop...

[B-Easy]

Overrated? Hmmm

I would have to say any team that can win 60 or more games in the regular season def deserves a good amount of respect in the postseason as potential champs.

The only thing that bug's me about watching the Cav's is the absolute craziness the media has for LeBron (not really the Cav's or James fault though). I had to actually mute the 1st two games of the Cavs/Bulls series since the LeBron talk just wouldn't stop...

they won 66 games last year with Pavlovic, Szerbiak, Wallaze, Z getting big minutes ..
and then people act surprised when they lose in 5 games to a well-balanced Orlando team?

Its the same story this year, except they got more scorers but a lot worse defense.

[cavsfanatic]

Bron had 39,Jamison has 25? and 11 and mo had 21. even in game 2 the offense is not the problem it is the defense.

Lakers went to 7 with the rockets without yao and mcgrady last year

Boston went to 7 with the hawks and a mediocre cavs team 2 years ago.

We lose 1 game to the bulls and we overrated? foh

[Batz]

Bron had 39,Jamison has 25? and 11 and mo had 21. even in game 2 the offense is not the problem it is the defense.

Lakers went to 7 with the rockets without yao and mcgrady last year

Boston went to 7 with the hawks and a mediocre cavs team 2 years ago.

We lose 1 game to the bulls and we overrated? foh
It's the bulls. How hard is to take double Rose and let everyone else chuck?

[lilmanu]

Bron had 39,Jamison has 25? and 11 and mo had 21. even in game 2 the offense is not the problem it is the defense.

Lakers went to 7 with the rockets without yao and mcgrady last year

Boston went to 7 with the hawks and a mediocre cavs team 2 years ago.

We lose 1 game to the bulls and we overrated? foh
Those Rockets and Hawks teams were much much better than this Bulls team which quite frankly plays like a lottery team

[zORi]

Those Rockets and Hawks teams were much much better than this Bulls team which quite frankly plays like a lottery team

That's really true, actually.

The Rockets were actually not bad after Yao fell off (due mostly to Aaron and Ron), and the Hawks have always been a good team.

Chicago had to scratch to make it in, due to a lack of offense, and if it weren't for Bosh going down, they might not have made it in at all.

Also that Cavs team made it to the ECF, so I wouldn't call them mediocre.

[Kingwillball]

Bron had 39,Jamison has 25? and 11 and mo had 21. even in game 2 the offense is not the problem it is the defense.

Lakers went to 7 with the rockets without yao and mcgrady last year

Boston went to 7 with the hawks and a mediocre cavs team 2 years ago.

We lose 1 game to the bulls and we overrated? foh


No this Bulls team has alot of Heart..That hard Fought 7 gm series last season against Celtics gave them some confidence to at least not back down this series.. I figured Cavs would have at least 1 gm they played Flat..If they win Sunday that this was just a Blip on the Screen.

[zORi]

So 20pts and 6rebs is considered sub par for Deng? Did you excpect him to have 25pts and 10 rebs? If anything i think Bulls overachieved yesterday with Noah's performance on offense.

Actually, yeah.

Then again, this might just be me still judging him off of not living up to BG's standards when he left.

[cavsfanatic]

Those Rockets and Hawks teams were much much better than this Bulls team which quite frankly plays like a lottery team
The rockets were but not the hawks imo. the hawks team we swept last year was better then the team the c's went to 7 with. imo

[cavsfanatic]

That's really true, actually.

The Rockets were actually not bad after Yao fell off (due mostly to Aaron and Ron), and the Hawks have always been a good team.

Chicago had to scratch to make it in, due to a lack of offense, and if it weren't for Bosh going down, they might not have made it in at all.

Also that Cavs team made it to the ECF, so I wouldn't call them mediocre.
I meant the year the C's won it. we took them to 7 and we were mediocre imo

[cavsfanatic]

No this Bulls team has alot of Heart..That hard Fought 7 gm series last season against Celtics gave them some confidence to at least not back down this series.. I figured Cavs would have at least 1 gm they played Flat..If they win Sunday that this was just a Blip on the Screen.
Yea i told arrogant cavs fans here that the bulls would win game 3. its over now though

[ginobli2311]

The Cavs are definitely overrated. That is not a knock on them. They are overrated because they have over achieved the last 2 years with the talent they have. They should not be winning 60 plus with what they have. It's simply that Lebron is actually still slightly under-rated and just flat out does everything for them on the floor. Everyone here should take a step back and look at the rosters of the Lakers, Magic, and Mavs. Seriously, take a good long look. Now ask yourself why the Cavs would be favored against all of them in a series right now. It's insane. The Cavs have far less talent and the only reason is that Lebron is just that good. He's better than even his biggest fans think. You know how all of Lebron's critics claim he's not clutch and hasn't won a title. Well, you need at least another great player and at least a decent coach to win. Mike Brown is possibly the worst coach in the league and the best player on Lebron's team is either Mo Williams or a past his prime Jamison. That's not good enough to win it all folks. They will lose again....and Lebron will take the blame again even though he's by far the best player in the league. Jordan could not win without Pippen and Phil. Shaq could not win without Kobe and Phil. Wade could not win without Shaq and Pat. Kobe could not win without Gasol and Phil. You get the idea? You have to have at least 2 great players to win it all. The Pistons won it, but they had a great coach and far more talent than the Cavs do.

Oh yea....about the whole clutch thing. Follow the link below. Lebron has by far been the best clutch player in the league the last few years.

Lets do a quick comparison of Lebron vs. Kobe (who everyone says is the best clutch player)
Summary
2009-2010 clutch stats: (In the last five minutes of the 4th or OT with neither team ahead by 5)
http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT11.HTM
Per 48 minutes:
Lebron is shooting 4.5 percent higher from the field.
Lebron is scoring 15 points more per 48 minutes of clutch time
Lebron is grabbing more than double the rebounds
Lebron is averaging more than double the assists
Lebron is averaging more than triple the blocks
Lebron is averaging more than double the steals
Lebron is shooting 80 percent from the line compared to Kobe's 82 percent
Lebron's plus/minus is over 5 times better than Kobe's per 48 minutes

Put Lebron on the Bulls and let him play with a better team and another great player in Rose. They win it easily. That is what is frustrating about the NBA....far too many players have their careers wasted due to bad GM's. Kobe has been so lucky in this regard getting to play for the best coach ever and play with the most talented teams by far in the league over the last 12 years. Lebron has been screwed in Cleveland. His team is old. He doesn't have anyone proven in the playoffs for help.

Like I said above. It's sad, but the Cavs will lose to the Magic again or the Lakers if they get lucky. If the Cavs do win it.....Lebron should be crowned as one of the best ever already. He's that good.

[NBASTATMAN]

People seem to be under the impression that Lebron finally has this great supporting cast, WRONG!

Do people really think Jamison is a little worse than guys like Gasol/Amare? His impact on a game is not half of that

Theyve been needing monster games from Lebron all year to beat anyone from contenders to lottery teams.

A truly deep and stacked team doesnt go 1-6 w/o their best player.

And Jamison/Shaq is a bad frontcourt defensively. Mo/Parker is a bad backcourt defensively.


Theyre not getting past the Magic.


I AGREEEEEE... The only way the Cavs win the title is if SHAQ GETS HIS LEGS BACK AND PLAYS LIKE he did when Mo and West were out.. THen they can win a title.. Jamison's impact offensively is not that great.. Moon could hit most of the open shots that Jamison is getting from Lebron while playing better defense.. But Jamison's floater could come in handy vs the Magic...

[B-Easy]

Great post Ginobili. That was a great read and i agree with everything.
Glad some people are starting to agree with me.

And for people that want to say, "ohh but the Lakers lost too, are they overrated?" .. im gonna counter it right now before anyone brings it up.

Its understandable when your team loses with your best player struggling. The Cavs are struggling to beat the 8th seeded Bulls with Lebron putting up near triple doubles with 40 points .. thats a huge red flag.

[ginobli2311]

Great post Ginobili. That was a great read and i agree with everything.
Glad some people are starting to agree with me.

And for people that want to say, "ohh but the Lakers lost too, are they overrated?" .. im gonna counter it right now before anyone brings it up.

Its understandable when your team loses with your best player struggling. The Cavs are struggling to beat the 8th seeded Bulls with Lebron putting up near triple doubles with 40 points .. thats a huge red flag.


Could not agree more. The Lakers lost to a team in the Thunder that won 50 games, have a ton more talent than the Bulls, and possibly have the best home court in the league. As you said....the Lakers lost because Kobe played awful. He jacked up shots when he didn't need to (I'll go ahead and point out that Lebron never jacks up shots unless his team needs him to) and it cost the Lakers the game. Why is Kobe taking 30 shots when he's ice cold and the rest of his team is playing well? Because he's still selfish and wanted to prove he's better than Durant. Hey Kobe....we already know you are better than Durant.....you have nothing prove. Just play the damn game.

The Cavs struggling with the Bulls while Lebron is playing at an unreal clip (as usual) is a tell tale sign of bad coaching and lack of talent. I don't know anyone can argue with what B-EASY is saying.

[strifed169]

LBJ should have won MVP and COTY last season

[King Lebron LBJ]

Great post Ginobili. That was a great read and i agree with everything.
Glad some people are starting to agree with me.

And for people that want to say, "ohh but the Lakers lost too, are they overrated?" .. im gonna counter it right now before anyone brings it up.

Its understandable when your team loses with your best player struggling. The Cavs are struggling to beat the 8th seeded Bulls with Lebron putting up near triple doubles with 40 points .. thats a huge red flag.

Struggling to beat the Bulls? Cavs won game 1 by 13, game 2 by 10.v They lost game 3 to a Bulls side so motivated and hungry to get back into the series with Derrick Rose and captain Kirk hitting EVERYTHING....

Lebron is going to get his numbers no matter what, he will always be consistant so using the line that Cavs needed Lebron to get 40 odd to beat the Bulls is pointless as he is that good and he can score at will. Jamison had 25 last night, Williams 21....it's clear it wasn't just about him.

Cavs defense was poor last night and they didn't take the Bulls seriously enough and got into a big hole. By the time they got it together they wasted too much time and Bulls won it.

huge red flag? please...this is all part of how the playoffs work. Most predicted the Cavs in 5 games anyway yet you are overrating using this game as a big reason why the Cavs are overrated? if anything you making them underrated with your blind hate for a team that clearly has a great shot to win it all.

They aren't perfect and do have weaknesses but not more than anybody else.

[King Lebron LBJ]

The Cavs struggling with the Bulls while Lebron is playing at an unreal clip (as usual) is a tell tale sign of bad coaching and lack of talent. I don't know anyone can argue with what B-EASY is saying.

Cavs aren't struggling with the Bulls, they beat them by double fiqures in the first two games while getting good production from other people other than Lebron. If Lebron was doing it all with no other help then it would be a fair point but he isn't. Other guys are stepping up and hitting shots. It just so happens the Bulls are hitting alot of big time shots and Derrick Rose is playing at a very high level.

You won't see the Cavs best until match-ups with the Magic/Lakers. Playing your best in the first round isn't ideal.

You shouldn't be judging the Cavs on what you are seeing in the first round. Remember last year? Magic struggled badly against a very weak Sixers team and got taken to 6 games then later on improved and beat the Cavs in 6. Cavs swept their way through the first two rounds..look how that ended. Fact is you can't prove your point saying they are overrated due to what they are doing in thr first round series. The goal is to win and move on..how you do it doesn't matter.

This thread should be left alone until the end of the playoffs. That is when we will know the answers. Bumping this thread up after each Cavs loss in the playoffs would be silly.

[TheTruth07]

Cavs are nothing... If it wasnt for LeBron they would be the worst team in the league.

[ginobli2311]

Cavs aren't struggling with the Bulls, they beat them by double fiqures in the first two games while getting good production from other people other than Lebron. If Lebron was doing it all with no other help then it would be a fair point but he isn't. Other guys are stepping up and hitting shots. It just so happens the Bulls are hitting alot of big time shots and Derrick Rose is playing at a very high level.

You won't see the Cavs best until match-ups with the Magic/Lakers. Playing your best in the first round isn't ideal.

You shouldn't be judging the Cavs on what you are seeing in the first round. Remember last year? Magic struggled badly against a very weak Sixers team and got taken to 6 games then later on improved and beat the Cavs in 6. Cavs swept their way through the first two rounds..look how that ended. Fact is you can't prove your point saying they are overrated due to what they are doing in thr first round series. The goal is to win and move on..how you do it doesn't matter.

This thread should be left alone until the end of the playoffs. That is when we will know the answers. Bumping this thread up after each Cavs loss in the playoffs would be silly.


I completely agree with everything you are saying if you are just looking at this year. It is far too early to judge this Cavs playoff team. However, my post was more about the last few years of Cavs basketball. The Cavs have significantly less talent than the Lakers and Magic. ...and they are also below the Mavs and Celtics in terms of talent this year in my opinion. Can you win with less talent? Of course....but I don't think they will. It's just too much to ask of Lebron to overcome inferior talent and flat our awful coaching. The Cavs will enter every game in the Conference Finals and NBA Finals down 4 to 5 point based on coaching alone.

Take the matchup with the Magic. Lebron will have to deal with getting guarded by Barnes and Pietrus (two very tough defenders)....and sadly that is there only advantage in the series. Van gundy is a better coach. Howard will own shaq/andy/bigz. We'll say lewis and jamison are a push. We'll say jameer and mo are a push. Who is going to hold down Vince? Anthony Paker or Moon??? Give me a break. That's all I'm saying. Yes, the Cavs have some decent players.....but not even close to the talent level and depth of the Lakers and Magic. And that is the measuring stick and those are the two teams that they are going to have to beat.

As you say....if other players step up and make shots....unlike last year then things will be different. But i'm not holding my breath for Mo Williams to come through in a tough series.

[jbryan1984]

Not really. People like Leon Powe and Daniel Gibson don't even play on the team cause its so deep! Jamario Moon used to start in Toronto and he was third string on the regular season (now he's got a spot cause of the way he played in game 2). Really, its the first year the Cavs have like nobody on the roster who is a jabroni, a no name. No Darnell Jackson, no Ira Newble, no Damon Jones. Everyone on the roster, people have heard of and know they can play. Really, you have to credit Danny Ferry for being the best GM in the NBA the last few years. The trades he has pulled off are just insane. 2 years ago, getting West/Wallace/Szcerzbiak for Hughes/Brown/Gooden was just the beginning, you could say that might be an even trade for both parties. But Damon Jones for Mo Williams? A nowhere near best defense Ben Wallace and Sasha Pavlovic for Shaq? And of course the big steal, Z for Jamison and then getting Z back! The guy is genius.

[King Lebron LBJ]

I completely agree with everything you are saying if you are just looking at this year. It is far too early to judge this Cavs playoff team. However, my post was more about the last few years of Cavs basketball. The Cavs have significantly less talent than the Lakers and Magic. ...and they are also below the Mavs and Celtics in terms of talent this year in my opinion. Can you win with less talent? Of course....but I don't think they will. It's just too much to ask of Lebron to overcome inferior talent and flat our awful coaching. The Cavs will enter every game in the Conference Finals and NBA Finals down 4 to 5 point based on coaching alone.


The Cavs talent level is not bad at all anymore. Obviously in the past it used to be compared to everybody else. But really now? there isn't a big enough gap to think this current Cavs team won't win it all.

Antawn Jamison and Shaq are big talent improvements over the past few seasons. Jamison is a guy who can get you 20 and 10 on any given night and Shaq will be a big inforcer for a possible series against Orlando.

Any other superstar may not win the title with this group..it's hard to say but Lebron is that good and this team is built so well for his style of basketball they all sort his game perfectly. Mo Williams being a 3rd option is huge for this playoff run. The Cavs roster is very deep and can call on other players who will be able to give you good production compared to previous years.

Mike Brown isn't the best coach in the world but he certainlty isn't bad. Remember the 2008 finals when everybody said Doc Rivers is going to get killed when going up against Phil Jackson? didn't happen...Mike Brown is more than a respectable coach and Cavs winning it all won't come to down to what he does do or doesn't do.

Just having talent isn't enough as the Spurs proved over the years. They won due to team-work and Duncan's brillance. I think the same could happen with Lebron and the Cavs.


Take the matchup with the Magic. Lebron will have to deal with getting guarded by Barnes and Pietrus (two very tough defenders)....and sadly that is there only advantage in the series. Van gundy is a better coach. Howard will own shaq/andy/bigz. We'll say lewis and jamison are a push. We'll say jameer and mo are a push. Who is going to hold down Vince? Anthony Paker or Moon??? Give me a break. That's all I'm saying. Yes, the Cavs have some decent players.....but not even close to the talent level and depth of the Lakers and Magic. And that is the measuring stick and those are the two teams that they are going to have to beat.


Honestly I don't see a big enough gap talent wise as you do. Lebron will have to face soild defenders against Orlando but they won't give him anymore trouble than anybody else. They will make him work but he will still have his way.

Dwight against Shaq will be more interesting than you think. Shaq was brought in for exactly this..guarding Dwight. History has shown Dwight has struggled at times when Shaq has guarded him. Granted he won't stop him but if he makes life tough for him and plays him straigt up that means ,ess open looks for the Magic shooters.

Vince carter is a good player but not what he was. That guy can be very hot and cold. He may have a good series but he could also hurt his team with poor shot selection. Talent wise I don't see a huge difference....Cavs took a Magic tea, last year very close with basically Lebron and Mo Williams struggling to 6 games...with guys like Wallace, Sasha and Wally playing good minutes.

Both teams are different and I see a big difference this time around. You mention Lakers talent level

I agree in THEORY

But Artest has been a liabilty offensively so has Odom lately. Bynum has been inconsistant. Lakers do have talent but they don't seem to have the hunger or drive for that talent to make a big difference. They are also very banged up.

Cavs have the Lebron factor and witjh the addition of Jamison that gives them another scorer to help out Mo Williams. Which will take alot of pressure off him.


As you say....if other players step up and make shots....unlike last year then things will be different. But i'm not holding my breath for Mo Williams to come through in a tough series

I can see why you aren't convinced after what happened last year is understandable. Guess we will have to wait and see. Me personally I just think it is Lebron's year and the team he has around him is certainly strong and good enough to win the title. Guess we will find out in june. Mo Williams does need to produce and him being the 3rd option instead of number two is clearly better for him.

[ginobli2311]

King Lebron

Clearly the Cavs have improved talent wise compared to last season. However, I feel like you are giving Shaq and Jamison a little too much credit. Jamison is well past his prime and he is not a proven player in the playoffs. Shaq will really help out a lot against Howard....there is no doubt about that. But obviously relying on Shaq at this point in his career is a huge question mark for the Cavs. I agree about Mo now being in the proper place as third option offensively...hopefully that will be huge for the rest of the playoffs. I completely disagree about Mike Brown though. He is a bad coach. Take the game tonight against the Bulls. You simply can't run a play in which Andy V. touches the ball down 3 in the closing seconds.....of course they are going to foul him immediately. This was especially bad considering that the Bulls were not hitting free throws. This coaching blunder could have been the difference in the game....we will never know. Mike Brown just does not do any innovative things on offense to get other people involved or Lebron in easy scoring positions. He's a below average coach at best and most likely falls in the bottom 5.

Of course having talent isn't enough. But the Spurs you speak of had great coaching and a group of players that had been playing together a long time for most of the title runs. The Cavs are relying heavily on Jamison and Shaq and they are still trying to fit in. I know talent is not everything, but I really just feel like the Cavs don't have enough to win a series against the Lakers or Magic even if they play well.

I disagree with you about the matchup with the Magic. The problem is that Lebron has to deal with good perimeter defenders and the best defensive player in the league back protecting the basket. This is really tough for Lebron to deal with and it showed at times last year and this year against the Magic. Now, if other players step up and hit shots it will be a different story. But I'll take the Magic...especially because of Vince Carter. He's capable of winning 2 games in the series all by himself. And if Vince is off....it doesn't kill the Magic. So he's just in a great situation. The on proven thing is that the Magic make shots. Rashard Lewis makes big shots all the time. So does Nelson, Vince, and Pietrus. The Cavs have not proven this yet....if they don't step up and hit shots they have no chance.

As for the Lakers. Artest was not brought in to score a bunch. Yes, he is struggling a bit....but he is also playing great defense on the best scorer in the league. Bynum is inconsistent but the Lakers don't need him to play 40 minutes. He rebounds and blocks shots well and scores efficiently. Gasol is just flat out amazing and is definitely the most under-rated player in the league. He does everything well. Odom has proven himself already. His game is not in question anymore. He rebounds and scores well and is another big body to throw at people. My point is that it is simply a lot to overcome...its not impossible, but on talent and coaching I really think the cavs will go into every game against the Lakers and Magic down about 5 points. That's a lot in my mind.

I'm a huge Lebron fan so hopefully I'm wrong. But part of me watches the Bulls and just thinks that....man, if Lebron played on that team they would win 70 and easily win the title. I hope at some point Lebron gets to play with the kind of talent and coach that other all-time greats have.

[King Lebron LBJ]

Clearly the Cavs have improved talent wise compared to last season. However, I feel like you are giving Shaq and Jamison a little too much credit. Jamison is well past his prime and he is not a proven player in the playoffs. Shaq will really help out a lot against Howard....there is no doubt about that. But obviously relying on Shaq at this point in his career is a huge question mark for the Cavs

I'm don't think I'm giving them too much credit at all honestly. Both have been very good additions to help out Lebron. Yes Jamison is 33 years old and may be past his prime but this year he was having as good a season as he has had for the past 2 or 3 seasons. He averaged 20 and 9 with the Wizards and with the Cavs averaged 16 points and 8 rebounds. Pretty damn good when you consider time to fit in and learn the offense and playing with Lebron. He can still drop 20+ on any given night which is very key for the Cavs in having another scoring option outside of Lebron and Mo.

Shaq meanwhile yes he will help as you know but the Cavs aren't pulling all their hope on him defending Dwight. It just gives the team more options rotationing on him. Far better than what we had against him last year.


Take the game tonight against the Bulls. You simply can't run a play in which Andy V. touches the ball down 3 in the closing seconds.....of course they are going to foul him immediately. This was especially bad considering that the Bulls were not hitting free throws. This coaching blunder could have been the difference in the game....we will never know

The play wasn't run for Andy to catch the ball, it was to get a screen open for Mo from Lebron. They just couldn't get the ball to him and run the right play. Bulls played great defense on Lebron and Mo couldn't get open either. Cavs had nomore timeouts so there was nothing Mike Brown could do there. You can't really blame it on Mike Brown. Bulls did the smart thing and would of fouled no matter what.


disagree with you about the matchup with the Magic. The problem is that Lebron has to deal with good perimeter defenders and the best defensive player in the league back protecting the basket. This is really tough for Lebron to deal with and it showed at times last year and this year against the Magic. Now, if other players step up and hit shots it will be a different story. But I'll take the Magic...especially because of Vince Carter. He's capable of winning 2 games in the series all by himself. And if Vince is off....it doesn't kill the Magic. So he's just in a great situation. The on proven thing is that the Magic make shots. Rashard Lewis makes big shots all the time. So does Nelson, Vince, and Pietrus. The Cavs have not proven this yet....if they don't step up and hit shots they have no chance

No doubt it won't be easy for Lebron but thats the beauty of having more offensive options than he had last year. That was the problem against Orlando nobody else to help with the scoring load. Even then this series was dead close and came down to a few last second plays even with nobody to help out Lebron.

Vince Carter is no longer that guy who can win you two games in a series. He has shown nothing this year for Cavs fans to be too concerned about him. Yeah he will have some big plays and scoring nights but generally from what I have seen of Vince he has had more bad shooting nights/shot selection than takeover games. Cavs have always defended VC very well....I hope it should be the same again. Have to wait and see I guess.


As for the Lakers. Artest was not brought in to score a bunch. Yes, he is struggling a bit....but he is also playing great defense on the best scorer in the league. Bynum is inconsistent but the Lakers don't need him to play 40 minutes. He rebounds and blocks shots well and scores efficiently. Gasol is just flat out amazing and is definitely the most under-rated player in the league. He does everything well. Odom has proven himself already. His game is not in question anymore. He rebounds and scores well and is another big body to throw at people. My point is that it is simply a lot to overcome...its not impossible, but on talent and coaching I really think the cavs will go into every game against the Lakers and Magic down about 5 points. That's a lot in my mind.


Actually I disagree there I think L.A needs Ron Artest's offensive production if they went to win it all and beat Magic or Cavs. Trevor Ariza was so huge offensively in the playoffs last season. Averaged what, 16 points per game in the finals? hit timely three after three. Lakers need Artest to hit open shots otherwise they have no shot at repeating.

If Artest is not producing then that is two of the 5 starters who are a big liabilty offensively which leaves the Lakers 3 vs 5 when it comes to late game situations. Not ideal at all.

Reason why they won it all last year was Kobe and Gasol had good support from both Odom and Ariza who would make plays and hit shots. They don't seem to be doing what they need to to be able to win this year.

I fully respect your views ginobli2311 and you do make some really good points.

You are a very good poster and I hope you stick around and post more.

I guess we have to wait and see come june how things pan out. I'm fully confident and I see the Cavs winning it all. Something I wasn't confident of last year due to obvious weaknesses. Something I simply don't see this year. Obviously Cavs have weaknessess but not more than everybody else.

[Allstar24]

People seem to be under the impression that Lebron finally has this great supporting cast, WRONG!

Do people really think Jamison is a little worse than guys like Gasol/Amare? His impact on a game is not half of that

Theyve been needing monster games from Lebron all year to beat anyone from contenders to lottery teams.

A truly deep and stacked team doesnt go 1-6 w/o their best player.

And Jamison/Shaq is a bad frontcourt defensively. Mo/Parker is a bad backcourt defensively.


Theyre not getting past the Magic.
LeBron fanboys coming out with the excuses early :oldlol:

[ginobli2311]

Offensively Jamison is a huge asset. My concern with him is simply that he looks old at times...especially on defense. If Jamison continues to score and rebound I feel the same way you do...but it always worries me relying on someone that has never really done it late in the playoffs.


Agreed. But they don't have much else to defend Howard. Also, I think Shaq's biggest impact against Howard is on offense. Shaq occupies so much space and is so hard to get around that it really prevents Howard from blocking and altering shots off the ball.


I might be wrong on this. To me, it looked like the play was to throw it into Andy and then back pick for Mo in the corner. Thats how i thought it played out.

Totally agree. If Rashard Lewis doesn't make huge shots in 2 of the games the Cavs still win the series. What scares me is that Lebron played off the charts even for him last year and it wasn't enough. But if Jamison and Mo step up then you are dead on.


Vince has never really done anything in the playoffs so I don't put much stock in him. I just view him as a big X factor. I still think he is more than capable of getting hot in 2 fourth qtrs. I agree that he can't have 2 great full games.....but like i said above....i think he can have 2 4th qtrs of 15 points. That could be enough to win the series.


No doubt the Lakers are not as good as they could/should be. But Artest hasn't really been in any situations so far in the playoffs in which he needed to make big shots. Last night should have been one, but Kobe froze everyone out even though he was ice cold. Fisher is clutch....I don't think we can question his ability to make big shots. Kobe and Gasol are obviously two of the best in the game. I love Odom in late game situations simply because he has the ability to do so many things on both ends of the floor. Although Bynum has been inconsistent, you can't argue his impact on offense and defense when he is in. The real problem with the Lakers, in my opinion, is that they don't run enough through Gasol. He does everything well and would open up a lot of those shots you are talking about.

[Bigsmoke]

beside the 3s, Jamison has been playing well. Shaq after game 1 is whats hurting the Cavs. The Cavs needs to know that Shaq is old and Noah is one of the best defensive centers in the world.

leave Jamison alone. he's doing his job. just stop launching those 3s

[cavsfanatic]

Thing is also their offense is built around lebron too much. Its built off lb getting doubled and it shouldn't be.

[ZzAzZ]

People seem to be under the impression that Lebron finally has this great supporting cast, WRONG!

Agree 100%

[Derka]

No.

[asdf1990]

can't wait for lebron nd wade to come to the knicks next season.

[Go Getter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axeEA2SFeCY

:cheers:

Go Bulls!

[Go Getter]

Lebron does have a good supporting cast wtf?

He's got shooters, hustle guys, big centers, defenders, and glue guys.

Sheesh HE's the best player on the planet....they have what it takes to win a championshis sans coaching IMO.

But you can only blame Lebron for that....imo he has a lot of power in the organization as far as who stays and goes.

They built this team around him and they played very well this season...they have just met up with a team that they don't match up well with at the point and the center position.

The Cavs aren't playing bad it's just the Bulls are playing well too.....gotta give my boys some credit.

Just like you have to give Orlando credit.

Whoever said Vince hasn't been showing signs lately hasn't been watching many games...Vince has been playing some pretty good ball lately and they've added some other key parts that they didn't have last year.

Magic are looking solid [their Title chances that is] especially because it seems like Kobe has lost his shooting touch temporarily.

[B-Easy]

:cheers:

[Lebron23]

:cheers:


The Series is not yet over.

[B-Easy]

The Series is not yet over.

i know, and they might still win this series... but i bet people arent as high on them as they were when the playoffs started, right?

Look at my original post about how bad Mo and Jamison are defensively..and look at what Rondo and KG are doing to them.

People are gonna act surprised when they lose to the Magic ( they might be in trouble now, but i said Magic so ill stick to that)..but it shouldnt be a surprise.

[ginobli2311]

i know, and they might still win this series... but i bet people arent as high on them as they were when the playoffs started, right?

Look at my original post about how bad Mo and Jamison are defensively..and look at what Rondo and KG are doing to them.

People are gonna act surprised when they lose to the Magic ( they might be in trouble now, but i said Magic so ill stick to that)..but it shouldnt be a surprise.


So true. Look at what the cavs are relying on to win. Mo/Jamison/Shaq are all key players. Shaq just can't do it anymore.....and like you said....mo and jamison are very very poor defenders. I just don't see how this team can get passed the celtics....let alone the magic. I hope i'm wrong because i want them to win....but i just don't see it.

You can't win with one dimensional players in the NBA with only one clutch player on a team. Not to mention that Mike Brown is probably one of the five worst coaches in the league.

[EastCaliChillin]

Lol Mo williams and Delonte are keeping them in the game. If it wasnt for them before half it would have been a 30 + lead

[NBASTATMAN]

The depth argument is part of the reason why theyre overrated ..... Having the best 8th-12th mans wont mean much..Gibson, Telfair, Powe, etc wont have much of an impact. Much better to have talent at the top like LA or Orlando.

Just because you have a guy that can get 40-10-10 any game doesnt make you a great team. Just look at last years 66 win team that got exposed.

Biggest indicator of how good a team is .. is how well they play with their best player out or with their best player on the bench.

Magic, Lakers ... even Denver, Portland, Dallas, look more impressive than the Cavs w/o their best player. It just shows you plug in Lebron on any playoff team and they possibly end up with the best record.

Cavs being a stacked team is an illusion .. they took a step forward offensively but a step back on defense.


You are correct.. But some people actually think this team is stacked... I don't see how you could argue that this team is stacked when the Cavs second best player would not be better than at least four lakers.. The 9-12 guys on the bench barely play.. And they have no interior defense... I am not writing that the Cavs are bad either.. They have a very good team.. But the Lakers and Orlando are better... Orlando has a stacked team.. Nelson at pt guard is better than Mo.. Vc is better than parker or west, dhoward is better than shaq and Z put together at this point, and rashard lewis is better than Jamison at this point... Their bench consists of Redick, williams, gortat, bass,peitrus, and anderson.. That is the best team 1-12 IN THE LEAGUE... The Lakers easily have the best first six in the league...

[Kingwillball]

You are correct.. But some people actually think this team is stacked... I don't see how you could argue that this team is stacked when the Cavs second best player would not be better than at least four lakers.. The 9-12 guys on the bench barely play.. And they have no interior defense... I am not writing that the Cavs are bad either.. They have a very good team.. But the Lakers and Orlando are better... Orlando has a stacked team.. Nelson at pt guard is better than Mo.. Vc is better than parker or west, dhoward is better than shaq and Z put together at this point, and rashard lewis is better than Jamison at this point... Their bench consists of Redick, williams, gortat, bass,peitrus, and anderson.. That is the best team 1-12 IN THE LEAGUE... The Lakers easily have the best first six in the league...


I think Cavs have the DEEPEST team in the League..Maybe not the Most stars but the most guys who can contribute. The Cavs Bench is WAY better than the Lakers and Slightly better than the Magic..On top of that Cavs have the Best player in the World so that makes Deserving of the Best team in the REGULAR SEASON but the Playoffs remained to be seen. BTW- Jamison and Lewis are a Push and so are Mo and Nelson meaning any of those guys capable of outplaying the other on a Given day.

[King Lebron LBJ]

:cheers:

You ae a freaking idiot you really are.

Bumping this stupid ass thread up because the Cavs were losing at halftime? are you that much of a Cavs hater you would bump this thread up? If if Cavs lost this game doesn't mean they would be overrated it's a 7 game series for a reason.

Fact is though you have made yourself look like a bigger idiot now that Cavs LED by Mo Williams in the 2nd half beat the Celtics. You going to bump this thread back up if Cavs are losing in game 2? how about game 3? maybe game 4? you are a joke.

[King Lebron LBJ]

You are correct.. But some people actually think this team is stacked... I don't see how you could argue that this team is stacked when the Cavs second best player would not be better than at least four lakers.. The 9-12 guys on the bench barely play.. And they have no interior defense... I am not writing that the Cavs are bad either.. They have a very good team.. But the Lakers and Orlando are better... Orlando has a stacked team.. Nelson at pt guard is better than Mo.. Vc is better than parker or west, dhoward is better than shaq and Z put together at this point, and rashard lewis is better than Jamison at this point... Their bench consists of Redick, williams, gortat, bass,peitrus, and anderson.. That is the best team 1-12 IN THE LEAGUE... The Lakers easily have the best first six in the league...

Cavs are deeper than both Lakers and Magic. Cavs have Lebron which outsets two players the way he takes over. Mo Williams is just as good as Nelson same with Jamison and Lewis. Fact is Cavs have plenty of guys who can step in and produce more than L.A can and just as many as Orlando can. Difference is the Cavs have a legit go to player while you could argue the Magic don't have that as much.

Cavs are the best team 1-12.

This Cavs team is stacked as this team has so many different weapons to throw at you.

[CLE[216]]

You ae a freaking idiot you really are.

Bumping this stupid ass thread up because the Cavs were losing at halftime? are you that much of a Cavs hater you would bump this thread up? If if Cavs lost this game doesn't mean they would be overrated it's a 7 game series for a reason.

Fact is though you have made yourself look like a bigger idiot now that Cavs LED by Mo Williams in the 2nd half beat the Celtics. You going to bump this thread back up if Cavs are losing in game 2? how about game 3? maybe game 4? you are a joke.

It's cool, this guy is a moron. He posted in the "Shaq complains" thread about how he thought Ernie Johnson was a light-skinned black guy.

[EastCaliChillin]

You ae a freaking idiot you really are.

Bumping this stupid ass thread up because the Cavs were losing at halftime? are you that much of a Cavs hater you would bump this thread up? If if Cavs lost this game doesn't mean they would be overrated it's a 7 game series for a reason.

Fact is though you have made yourself look like a bigger idiot now that Cavs LED by Mo Williams in the 2nd half beat the Celtics. You going to bump this thread back up if Cavs are losing in game 2? how about game 3? maybe game 4? you are a joke.
He's a Lebron stan. He is trying to feed people propaganda that Lebron i playin on a weak team.
lol
Truth is he has 2nd most stacked team behind Magic

[B-Easy]

You ae a freaking idiot you really are.

Bumping this stupid ass thread up because the Cavs were losing at halftime? are you that much of a Cavs hater you would bump this thread up? If if Cavs lost this game doesn't mean they would be overrated it's a 7 game series for a reason.

Fact is though you have made yourself look like a bigger idiot now that Cavs LED by Mo Williams in the 2nd half beat the Celtics. You going to bump this thread back up if Cavs are losing in game 2? how about game 3? maybe game 4? you are a joke.

What does the Boston series have to do with anything? I dont care if they sweep them like they did Atlanta last year. Read this thread, I have them beating Boston and in the ECF.

This whole thread is about them not being able to get past Orlando once they get to the ECF.
Orlando right now, is the only team to sweep a series..and Dwight was terrible. That says a lot about the depth of that team.

They have the better PG, better SG, PF is a wash, better C. Better Bench. Better coaching.
Only advantage Cleveland has is at SF. Basically, its a repeat of last year.











Also, you have to be delusional to believe that Mo is as good as Jammer.
As a matter of fact, ill up this thread when Jammer completely torches Mo ..while Mo pulls his usual disappearing act.

[King Lebron LBJ]

?

What does the Boston series have to do with anything? I dont care if they sweep them like they did Atlanta last year. Read this thread, I have them beating Boston and in the ECF.

This whole thread is about them not being able to get past Orlando (the real stacked team) once they get to the ECF.

Then why did you bump this thread with a :cheers: icon when Cavs were losing? if you were really talking about the Magic series wht bump it NOW? why not bump it when that series actually happens?

Cavs took Orlando to 6 games with a much weaker supporter cast, now that Cavs have added good talent around Lebron it is foolish to say Orlando will beat them for sure. Cavs should win that series even though it will be close.

[King Lebron LBJ]

Orlando right now, is the only team to sweep a series..and Dwight was terrible. That says a lot about the depth of that team.

big deal

Cavs swept both of the first two rounds last year. Didn't mean much.



They wont stop the Jameer-Dwight pick and roll .. only way is to stop that is giving up open 3s.

They won't do doing the pick and roll on a consistant basics. What killed Cavs last year was open threes due to double Dwight ansd nobody being quick enough to get out to the shooters...that won't happen this time around.


Mo is not as good as Jameer, you have to be delusional to believe that. As a matter of fact, ill up this thread when Jammer completely torches Mo ..while Mo pulls his usual disappearing act.

PLEASE

Don't act like Nelson is this amazing player. Both Nelson and Williams are very similar both are the same kind of player.

Mo Williams showed in game 1 how good he can be and how important he is.

WOW how cool are you? bumping this thread up when Cavs players play bad and lose...where the hell will you be if they win? NOWHERE is the answer.

[B-Easy]

Then why did you bump this thread with a :cheers: icon when Cavs were losing? if you were really talking about the Magic series wht bump it NOW? why not bump it when that series actually happens?

Cavs took Orlando to 6 games with a much weaker supporter cast, now that Cavs have added good talent around Lebron it is foolish to say Orlando will beat them for sure. Cavs should win that series even though it will be close.

So youre gonna completely ignore that Orlando is also improved?

Magic in 6. Everyone is gonna be shocked again, i wont be.

[King Lebron LBJ]

So youre gonna completely ignore that Orlando is also improved?

Magic in 6. Everyone is gonna be shocked again, i wont be.

BOTH TEAMS are completely different. Which is why what happened last year is pointless mentioning.

Fact is Cavs brought in Shaq to help defend Dwight which means less double teams and less open shots for the Magic's shooters. Jamison was brought in to counter Shard Lewis who was a big reason why Magic won that series.

If Williams and Jamison play on par with guys like Nelson and Lewis then the Cavs win the series. Lebron is too good at taking over for the Magic to win if his 2nd and 3rd options are playing well. Magic are a great team and could win this series certainly but I fail to see Lebron losing to them again not with a guy like Jamison added. Cavs lost last year as they had nobody to score....Jamison is a consistant 18-20 point scorer. He is exactly what Lebron needs to get past the Magic. Shaq is also a big body to give Dwight trouble, which is more than Cavs had last year.

using last year to why the Magic will win is foolish. As that key advantages Orlando had in the playoffs last year they simply don't have this year. Dosn't mean they don't have other advantages but their main two are limited.

B-easy if you want to bump this thread if the Cavs get knocked out and don't win it all? FINE...but please don't be immature and bump this thread everytime the Cavs lose a game. It is totally pointless and makes you look like a troll.

[stephanieg]

Powe was a beast on Boston. Did his knee injury kill him forever or what? He did big things during the C's '08 title run.

[B-Easy]

Everything i said was on point .. regardless of how this series goes down.

- Defense just isnt the same
- Mo and Jamison are horrible on defense
- Mo and Jamison cant be relied on to score

Better hope Lebron gets 40-10-10 in Boston .. because thats what this "stacked" team has relied on all season.

[ginobli2311]

The first two games in the Boston series just shows you what wins in the playoffs. You need multiple great players and great defense. Cleveland doesn't have that and that is why they won't win the title let alone get past the magic and celtics. Mo can't even remotely limit Rondo at all. Jamison can't even remotely limit KG at all. Shaq is a non factor. You can't win a title if mo williams or jamison is your 2nd best player. You just can't. Look at this series so far.....its going very similar to the Magic series last year. The Cavs aren't defending.....they have 2 really bad mismatches.....and if Lebron doesn't go for 38/8/8 they have no chance.

This just in. If your second best player goes 1-9 for 4 points and also lets the man he is guarding go for 14 points and 19 assists....uhhhhhh....you can't win. I mean....Pierce is playing awful and the Celtics should have still won both games.

As I said a million times before. No team has ever won a title with players like mo/jamison/shaq being heavily relied on. Not one of them can play any defense. Mo has clearly shown he's not capable of playing well in a tough series on either end of the floor. Jamison just can't hand with KG for a full game. Shaq is just ****ing old.... he does nothing but slow down the game (which is awful for the cavs) and he can't score or defend.

I hate to say it, but unless Lebron steps it up to another level, the Cavs are going down in 6 again this year. This time it will be in the 2nd round.....****.

[MrUnstopable]

I think Cavs have the DEEPEST team in the League..Maybe not the Most stars but the most guys who can contribute. The Cavs Bench is WAY better than the Lakers and Slightly better than the Magic..On top of that Cavs have the Best player in the World so that makes Deserving of the Best team in the REGULAR SEASON but the Playoffs remained to be seen. BTW- Jamison and Lewis are a Push and so are Mo and Nelson meaning any of those guys capable of outplaying the other on a Given day.
This is the same stuff I heard last years yet there were a ton of excuses when you guys lost. So no excuses this time right? Orlando is the deepest team in the NBA period. And unlike other teams they use it. They regularly go 10 to 11 deep every game! Even in these playoffs which is rare.

To add they expect great contributions from their bench. Everytime Pietrus, Gortat, Reddick, Williams, and Anderson/ Bass come in the game, they expect them to build on the lead. More times then not they do. Does Clevelands bench do that? No. If Lebron is not on the floor they are horrible.

[MrUnstopable]

The first two games in the Boston series just shows you what wins in the playoffs. You need multiple great players and great defense. Cleveland doesn't have that and that is why they won't win the title let alone get past the magic and celtics. Mo can't even remotely limit Rondo at all. Jamison can't even remotely limit KG at all. Shaq is a non factor. You can't win a title if mo williams or jamison is your 2nd best player. You just can't. Look at this series so far.....its going very similar to the Magic series last year. The Cavs aren't defending.....they have 2 really bad mismatches.....and if Lebron doesn't go for 38/8/8 they have no chance.

This just in. If your second best player goes 1-9 for 4 points and also lets the man he is guarding go for 14 points and 19 assists....uhhhhhh....you can't win. I mean....Pierce is playing awful and the Celtics should have still won both games.

As I said a million times before. No team has ever won a title with players like mo/jamison/shaq being heavily relied on. Not one of them can play any defense. Mo has clearly shown he's not capable of playing well in a tough series on either end of the floor. Jamison just can't hand with KG for a full game. Shaq is just ****ing old.... he does nothing but slow down the game (which is awful for the cavs) and he can't score or defend.

I hate to say it, but unless Lebron steps it up to another level, the Cavs are going down in 6 again this year. This time it will be in the 2nd round.....****.
This :pimp:

[BlueandGold]

No this team is stacked. They have any every type of player there is. They have young athletic hustle players like Moon, they have spot up 3 point shooters in Parker, williams, delonte and even Jamison. They have a half-court low-post beast in Shaq. They have versatile PFs like Jamison and Hickson and on top of all of that they have a 2-time MVP monster freak in Lebron.

[MrUnstopable]

No this team is stacked. They have any every type of player there is. They have young athletic hustle players like Moon, they have spot up 3 point shooters in Parker, williams, delonte and even Jamison. They have a half-court low-post beast in Shaq. They have versatile PFs like Jamison and Hickson and on top of all of that they have a 2-time MVP monster freak in Lebron.
Keep telling yourself that... Once again I bring out logic. When it can be argued that 2nd, 3rd, and 4th best players are better then your second best player then your team is not deep. Point blank and simple. Nelson, Lewis, Carter are all better then Jamison, Mo, Shaq. End Thread

[ginobli2311]

No this team is stacked. They have any every type of player there is. They have young athletic hustle players like Moon, they have spot up 3 point shooters in Parker, williams, delonte and even Jamison. They have a half-court low-post beast in Shaq. They have versatile PFs like Jamison and Hickson and on top of all of that they have a 2-time MVP monster freak in Lebron.


Dead wrong. They don't have anyone that protects the rim on defense and they don't have a guard that can defend other good pg's. Jamison is grossly over-rated as he essentially is a one dimensional player and has never proven he can make big shots. Mo is a fine player.....he just can't defend....and so far he has only proven that he comes up small in the playoffs. There is no legit #2 option on the team at either end of the floor. You can't expect lebron to rebound, pass, score and protect the rim and defend a guy like pierce. It's impossible for a single person to do....

Factor that in with the fact the clearly Lebron is not 100 percent and i don't get how they can win.

But....this team is not stacked. It was built poorly and it will show throughout the playoffs. I'm a cavs fan so I hate having to say this, but its true. Shaq is worthless.....he brings nothing to the table...in fact, he only hurts the cavs on both ends.

Mo and Jamison will get owned by rond and kg in this series. If the cavs win....they will struggle with jameer and lewis as well. Stacked? maybe in 2002 when shaq and jamison were in their primes. Not now dude. Not even close.

[Indian guy]

They won't get past Orlando barring a major defensive improvement before they make it to the ECF.

What I said on Page 3 of this thread a couple of weeks ago, when Cleveland was up 2-0 on Chicago. They are a shockingly average defensive team(post-trade, especially) and have liabilities all over the court in 'Mo, Jamison and their slow centers. You saw what happened when they had a rare POOR offensive game last night - they couldn't even stay competitive. This why LeBron has to be spectacular offensively(35/8/8/50%) for Cleveland to win any game against a good opponent. I called Cleveland in 7 against Boston before the series began, but I hadn't anticipated them losing home-court. Now I see in Boston in 6, & what a disastrous end that will be to LeBron dominant 2-year run. Fair or not, he'll forever be regarded as the guy who can't get it done in the playoffs.

[ginobli2311]

What I said on Page 3 of this thread a couple of weeks ago, when Cleveland was up 2-0 on Chicago. They are a shockingly average defensive team(post-trade, especially) and have liabilities all over the court in 'Mo, Jamison and their slow centers. You saw what happened when they had a rare POOR offensive game last night - they couldn't even stay competitive. This why LeBron has to be spectacular offensively(35/8/8/50%) for Cleveland to win any game against a good opponent. I called Cleveland in 7 against Boston before the series began, but I hadn't anticipated them losing home-court. Now I see in Boston in 6, & what a disastrous end that will be to LeBron dominant 2-year run. Fair or not, he'll forever be regarded as the guy who can't get it done in the playoffs.

Yep. Everyone here should go back and look at what wins NBA titles. 28 out of the last 30 NBA champions have had multiple hall of fame players in their primes and almost always has great coaching. The 94 Rockets and the 04 Pistons are the only 2 teams that won without the above criteria. The Rockets were built for playoff success though. They had great guard play, they had tough hard nosed perimeter defenders, and they had big shot makers like kenny smith/cassell/horry. This was somewhat an anomaly because MJ retired the year before....but this remains the only time in the last 30 years that a single super star has led a team to a title in Hakeem. The 04 Pistons are somewhat of an anomaly as well because the Lakers were far more talented, but Kobe just collapsed and shot the Lakers out of the series. However, the Pistons were once again built for playoff success. They had size at every position, big shot makers in billups/rasheed, toughness, and they could guard every position. They protected the rim (something the cavs can't do), they could guard good guard (something that cavs can't do), and they could guard size in the post (something the cavs can't do)


The Cavs don't have either a good coach or multiple great players. In fact, numbers suggest that Mike Brown is one of the five worst coaches in the NBA today. This experiment was tried in Dallas as well. You can't win with guys like mo williams and jamison in the playoffs. It just can't be done. Lebron comes closer than anyone actually should because he is just truly amazing, but its just too hard for one player to carry this big of a load against other tough teams throughout the playoffs.

[Killer_Instinct]

And the excuses are right on cue...at the first sign of trouble. Just. Like. Every. Single. Postseason. Before. It.

[crisoner]

And if the Cavs win...and go on to the Finals....this thread will sink into the demise of older thread in ISH. But if they are out this round or the next...this thread will live all summer long.

[Shax]

When your best player has to go for 30+/8/8 on 50% shooting to win most games, something is wrong.

[TROLL_HUNTER]

they are not overrated as a team. they got the best record during the season and thats that. Deffensively they are great and all the players can defend really tough. Offensively they are a 1-man army and that cannot last forever. its very unlikely Lebron can sustain the offense every night, dropping +35. even if they reached the finals, Lebron would be squeezed dry like a lemon and i cannot see him keeping it up.

The question is not wether the Cavs are overrated since Lebron is part of the team. The core question is , ASIDE LEBRON, are the cavs the best team in the league? Just try a little exercise. take out the biggest star of each team, Kobe, Dirk, Duncan, Durant, Melo, etc ... and then reply to this question: would the Cavs be top seed in the nba? would they make the playoffs?

[madmax]

All the talk about Cavs being "overrated" will end when they get a win in Boston...their biggest problem this year is lack of concentration in most of the games - it just happened that they got complacent and cold from the floor last night and experienced Celts took advantage of this. Thę same thing happened when they played Bulls and lost Game 3 after lackdaisical performance, bouncing back with a bang. This Cavs team is MUCH more talented than last years hustling squad of scrubs (minus Bron of course). They'll bounce back and haters will get back to their usual "refs conspiracy" bitching ways...

[NBASTATMAN]

This is the same stuff I heard last years yet there were a ton of excuses when you guys lost. So no excuses this time right? Orlando is the deepest team in the NBA period. And unlike other teams they use it. They regularly go 10 to 11 deep every game! Even in these playoffs which is rare.

To add they expect great contributions from their bench. Everytime Pietrus, Gortat, Reddick, Williams, and Anderson/ Bass come in the game, they expect them to build on the lead. More times then not they do. Does Clevelands bench do that? No. If Lebron is not on the floor they are horrible.



Orlando is the deepest team in the league. I have written this but most of the Stans on this board don't know crap.. Ginoboli makes perfect sense when he writes that it will be hard for the CAVS TO WIN A TITLE WITH JAMISON, MO, AND SHAQ....


I would love to see THE CAVS go back to mo, west, lebron, hickson or varejo and Z .. That team had the best plus minus... Shaq is just hurtinG THE CAVS AT THIS POINT.

[NBASTATMAN]

The thing with the Cavs that's different from say the lakers or orlando is that Dwight and KObe can both have god awful bad games and their team can still win against playoff type teams whereas it's true, if lebron has a truly bad game by his standards, the Cavs will lose most of the time.



we'll have to wait for that day to come


That was again proven last night.. I have written this all year...

[Kingwillball]

This is the same stuff I heard last years yet there were a ton of excuses when you guys lost. So no excuses this time right? Orlando is the deepest team in the NBA period. And unlike other teams they use it. They regularly go 10 to 11 deep every game! Even in these playoffs which is rare.

To add they expect great contributions from their bench. Everytime Pietrus, Gortat, Reddick, Williams, and Anderson/ Bass come in the game, they expect them to build on the lead. More times then not they do. Does Clevelands bench do that? No. If Lebron is not on the floor they are horrible.


U need to Relax..Cavs are still winning the Championship this year..Lebron is Like Neo..He is the One.:D

[BallPhunk]

Should the Cavs somehow loose, I really hope we don't start hearing about how weak the team actually is. Not after the hype we've heard all year about them.

I still can't believe they'll play 3 more games like this last one and loose, but who knows. The Celtics have a way of making teams look lost. If it does happen, neither Orlando 09 or this year will be a fluke.

And BTW - this is a perfect time to bump this thread. Fine to love the Cavs, but all the "why the hell are you bumping this blah blah blah..." is pathetic.

[ILLsmak]

Haha, I don't agree with bumping this thread because dude is obviously a Cav's hater and it was just one game. I'd stick to bumping them after the Cavs were knocked out, but even then it would be kind of classless because at that point it would be common knowledge.

I'm sure someone could go back and bump all kinds of ridiculous stuff this guy said, too...

And this is, no matter what he thinks at this moment, kind of off base, too.

The Cavs are the best team... not talent wise, but the way they are put together. If they choke, they choke. It took a long time for people to realize the Cavs were the best team, though. Now after one game people are gonna say SEE!

These are the same people that are saying "See, Mo Williams cracks under pressure always." or "See, Shaq needs to retire."

People are annoying who pop out of the woodwork to say things.

I think it's funny how everyone is banding together to become Cav/LeBron haters. Even Celtics fans and Lakers fans are in agreement. That shows how good the Cavs really are.

Now... will they win? It's hard to tell. Anything can happen in the playoffs. LeBron could get injured for real... or worsen his minor injury. I just think the Cavs came out stupid and uninspired... maybe it had to do with the MVP thing, but they really played horrible. Anyone who thinks that's what to expect from the Cavs or that they 'got exposed' is crazy.

-Smak

[ILLsmak]

Dead wrong. They don't have anyone that protects the rim on defense and they don't have a guard that can defend other good pg's. Jamison is grossly over-rated as he essentially is a one dimensional player and has never proven he can make big shots. Mo is a fine player.....he just can't defend....and so far he has only proven that he comes up small in the playoffs. There is no legit #2 option on the team at either end of the floor. You can't expect lebron to rebound, pass, score and protect the rim and defend a guy like pierce. It's impossible for a single person to do....

Factor that in with the fact the clearly Lebron is not 100 percent and i don't get how they can win.

But....this team is not stacked. It was built poorly and it will show throughout the playoffs. I'm a cavs fan so I hate having to say this, but its true. Shaq is worthless.....he brings nothing to the table...in fact, he only hurts the cavs on both ends.

Mo and Jamison will get owned by rond and kg in this series. If the cavs win....they will struggle with jameer and lewis as well. Stacked? maybe in 2002 when shaq and jamison were in their primes. Not now dude. Not even close.

They are stacked because they are built correctly. They are built better than any team in the playoffs. If this was a video game, it would be easier because they could swap rotations without people getting butthurt. I'd like to see other people get some playing time.

I think Shaq protects the rim just as well as anyone, but he's just been so atrocious on offense and rebounding that the coach has benched him. I don't think, in fact, there is a player in the NBA that can protect the rim like Shaq. Ask Rondo...

However, if LeBron is truly not 100% that's not good because even though the team is built perfectly, it's built perfectly to complement LeBron... and without LeBron getting his averages, they probably can't win.

But it's like the Bulls... if MJ struggled they probably weren't going to win, either... but the thing was... MJ rarely struggled. Same with LeBron. Look for a big bounce back.

-Smak

[G.O.A.T]

People seem to be under the impression that Lebron finally has this great supporting cast, WRONG!

Do people really think Jamison is a little worse than guys like Gasol/Amare? His impact on a game is not half of that

Theyve been needing monster games from Lebron all year to beat anyone from contenders to lottery teams.

A truly deep and stacked team doesnt go 1-6 w/o their best player.

And Jamison/Shaq is a bad frontcourt defensively. Mo/Parker is a bad backcourt defensively.


Theyre not getting past the Magic.

Guess I don't have to watch the series now. I can't tell if you have an agenda, do you?

[ginobli2311]

They are stacked because they are built correctly. They are built better than any team in the playoffs. If this was a video game, it would be easier because they could swap rotations without people getting butthurt. I'd like to see other people get some playing time.

I think Shaq protects the rim just as well as anyone, but he's just been so atrocious on offense and rebounding that the coach has benched him. I don't think, in fact, there is a player in the NBA that can protect the rim like Shaq. Ask Rondo...

However, if LeBron is truly not 100% that's not good because even though the team is built perfectly, it's built perfectly to complement LeBron... and without LeBron getting his averages, they probably can't win.

But it's like the Bulls... if MJ struggled they probably weren't going to win, either... but the thing was... MJ rarely struggled. Same with LeBron. Look for a big bounce back.

-Smak

Shaq protects the rim as well as anyone? What? First off. He's only playing 19 minutes a game. So thats really not enough to be an enforcer. Yes....he takes some hard fouls...but guess what....you don't want your center fouling people all the time sending them to the line for free points. Shaq is averaging a big total of 0 BLOCKS PER GAME IN THE SERIES SO FAR. He does not do anything for the cavs. Hell....he's shooting 36 percent from the field.

Also, the Cavs were not built well at all. They don't have one other player than Lebron that can get points on their own consistently. Mo is hot or cold....and usually cold when it counts. Jamison needs open shots and has no chance to score on KG one on one. Parker needs open shots.

BUT......THE BIG PROBLEM IS: WAIT FOR IT:

THEY CANT DEFEND WELL ANYMORE.

Mo is an awful defender. He can't stay with quick guards....and he can't guard shooting guards like ray allen because they muscle him in the post and shoot over him. Jamison is also a weak defender. He can't guard anyone one on one and he's not a good help defender. Parker is a decent defender. Shaq brings nothing to the table because he can't move fast enough to protect the rim without fouling.....he also can't show on the high screen and roll so he leaves the other cavs trying to recover too much.

LASTLY:

Why are we haters? Because we don't think the Cavs are title worthy? It is also not making excuses if these problems with the team exist. No team in NBA history has won a title with the kind of players the cavs have. You can't rely on guys out of their primes like jamison/shaq or a guy like mo williams who is clearly the most over-rated player in the league. I'ts just the truth. Look at the lineups. If the celtics are healthy....and it looks like they are. How the hell are the cavs going to beat a team with rondo/pierce/allen/kg/perkins/rasheed/daniels/big baby....come on. The celtics will win in 6 if they remain healthy.

[ILLsmak]

Shaq protects the rim as well as anyone? What? First off. He's only playing 19 minutes a game. So thats really not enough to be an enforcer. Yes....he takes some hard fouls...but guess what....you don't want your center fouling people all the time sending them to the line for free points. Shaq is averaging a big total of 0 BLOCKS PER GAME IN THE SERIES SO FAR. He does not do anything for the cavs. Hell....he's shooting 36 percent from the field.

Also, the Cavs were not built well at all. They don't have one other player than Lebron that can get points on their own consistently. Mo is hot or cold....and usually cold when it counts. Jamison needs open shots and has no chance to score on KG one on one. Parker needs open shots.

BUT......THE BIG PROBLEM IS: WAIT FOR IT:

THEY CANT DEFEND WELL ANYMORE.

Mo is an awful defender. He can't stay with quick guards....and he can't guard shooting guards like ray allen because they muscle him in the post and shoot over him. Jamison is also a weak defender. He can't guard anyone one on one and he's not a good help defender. Parker is a decent defender. Shaq brings nothing to the table because he can't move fast enough to protect the rim without fouling.....he also can't show on the high screen and roll so he leaves the other cavs trying to recover too much.

LASTLY:

Why are we haters? Because we don't think the Cavs are title worthy? It is also not making excuses if these problems with the team exist. No team in NBA history has won a title with the kind of players the cavs have. You can't rely on guys out of their primes like jamison/shaq or a guy like mo williams who is clearly the most over-rated player in the league. I'ts just the truth. Look at the lineups. If the celtics are healthy....and it looks like they are. How the hell are the cavs going to beat a team with rondo/pierce/allen/kg/perkins/rasheed/daniels/big baby....come on. The celtics will win in 6 if they remain healthy.

You'll get over it... and blocks are overrated. Shaq won't continue to shoot 36% and he probably won't continue to play 19 minutes a game. Over the course of a series, hard fouls tend to wear guys down. You really only have to hit a guy a couple of times early and they remember it for the whole series.

Mo is a bad defender, but remember the Cavs are a great defensive team. They have a SF playing PF... a weak defending SF, even. That's why it'd make so much more sense to have JJ or even Andy starting. Probably JJ though because he can finish.

Look at the Celtics. How many legit big men do they have? 4, if you're counting Baby and Sheed. Cavs have Shaq, Z, JJ, Andy. Is that equal? Not really if Baby and Sheed are balling. But if they aren't, then yes. Who has the better star power? LeBron. He's going to get every call. All he has to do is go out there and play decently and he'll be fine. He played really badly and the refs knew it so they gave him nothing. Who has better shooters? Cavs, by far.

The other aspects like defense and rebounding are shady because Jamison really messes that up. When they had in Hickson and Jamison when they were making their end-game run they couldn't secure a rebound or stop anything. I actually liked the look of Shaq on KG and Jamison on Perk.

Like I've said about 100 times on this forum, you can throw out stats... you can hate on pick and roll, but Shaq is one of the best defensive impact players in the NBA. The only thing is that he is scrubbing. He's still the same impact defensively but when people get the offensive rebound or he's missing bunnies at the other end then it really hurts the team.

Shaq has shut down KG before... even old Shaq. Like I said before, in terms of 1v1 defense Shaq is great because nobody can get around him and people fear pain. At the most, they will get free throws. Positional help defense, he is also one of the best because he will put you on your back and also get some blocks if people go up soft because they are expecting contact.

Of course, the downside is that Shaq can not move from spot to spot so if he's on one side of the rim or outside guarding a shooter, he can't make up the distance to get back. I believe Shaq's injury, just as much as Antawn's starting, is the reason the Cavs regressed defensively near the end of the year.

JJ is a good defender... so is Andy. Z isn't half bad either. Their only weak defenders on their whole roster (that get PT) are their starting PG and starting PF. Something needs to be done about that. Like I said in the "Jamison will outplay KG" thread... unless Jamison comes out and gets 30 on KG, there's no way he can outplay him because he's way too small and doesn't have an impact other than scoring.

But think of it this way, last night the Cavs were coming back and he had a wide open 3 to bring em close. If he hit that, I am pretty sure the Cavs would have won... but he didn't, of course. Point being, he's gotta score. If he doesn't abuse the defense, there's no reason to have him out there. Bring him in as 6th man, then.

-Smak

[B-Easy]

Haha, I don't agree with bumping this thread because dude is obviously a Cav's hater and it was just one game. I'd stick to bumping them after the Cavs were knocked out, but even then it would be kind of classless because at that point it would be common knowledge.

I'm sure someone could go back and bump all kinds of ridiculous stuff this guy said, too...

And this is, no matter what he thinks at this moment, kind of off base, too.

The Cavs are the best team... not talent wise, but the way they are put together. If they choke, they choke. It took a long time for people to realize the Cavs were the best team, though. Now after one game people are gonna say SEE!

These are the same people that are saying "See, Mo Williams cracks under pressure always." or "See, Shaq needs to retire."

People are annoying who pop out of the woodwork to say things.

I think it's funny how everyone is banding together to become Cav/LeBron haters. Even Celtics fans and Lakers fans are in agreement. That shows how good the Cavs really are.

Now... will they win? It's hard to tell. Anything can happen in the playoffs. LeBron could get injured for real... or worsen his minor injury. I just think the Cavs came out stupid and uninspired... maybe it had to do with the MVP thing, but they really played horrible. Anyone who thinks that's what to expect from the Cavs or that they 'got exposed' is crazy.

-Smak

im not a Cavs hater...im actually rooting for them to win it all.
Im more of a Laker hater, and Orlando too. I really dont want them to win it all.:oldlol:

I just dont see how a team that is the Washington Wizards 2.0 w/o Lebron is stacked. A bunch of 1 dimensional supporting players is not a stacked team.

[LA_Showtime]

The Cavs aren't overrated. They've led the league in wins for two straight years. They have depth, the MVP of the league, and an underrated head coach.

[ginobli2311]

The Cavs aren't overrated. They've led the league in wins for two straight years. They have depth, the MVP of the league, and an underrated head coach.


Why is it so difficult to understand the big difference between regular season and post season. Why can't you understand that not having anyone to protect the rim on defense is a huge flaw? Why can't you understand that having guards that can't defend at all is a huge flaw?

Yes. The Cavs are one of the best teams. But you don't win titles with players that are either vastly over valued (mo williams and jamison) or players that are shells of their former selves (shaq and big z). Are you honestly going to say that the cavs can rely on players like west and hickson?

Come on now guys. If the celtics remain healthy....they have a much better team. In fact, it's not even close.

[zORi]

Why is it so difficult to understand the big difference between regular season and post season. Why can't you understand that not having anyone to protect the rim on defense is a huge flaw? Why can't you understand that having guards that can't defend at all is a huge flaw?

Yes. The Cavs are one of the best teams. But you don't win titles with players that are either vastly over valued (mo williams and jamison) or players that are shells of their former selves (shaq and big z). Are you honestly going to say that the cavs can rely on players like west and hickson?

Come on now guys. If the celtics remain healthy....they have a much better team. In fact, it's not even close.
That can be a big if....

Though I do agree, the C's theoretically can beat CLE.

[niko]

But think of it this way, last night the Cavs were coming back and he had a wide open 3 to bring em close. If he hit that, I am pretty sure the Cavs would have won... but he didn't, of course. Point being, he's gotta score. If he doesn't abuse the defense, there's no reason to have him out there. Bring him in as 6th man, then.

-Smak

Nor will he. Him and that whole wizards team were frontrunners - when the cavs are playing real well he'll be balling, but when they are struggling and need someone to step up, it won't be him. History says this.

[LA_Showtime]

So Jamison is overrated now? :oldlol: :rolleyes:

LeBron doesn't have anyone to protect the paint? He's got Shaq, Big Z, Varejao, and Hickson. Some Cavs fans like to think of Hickson as an up and coming all-star too. :lol

If the Cavs can win 65 games for two straight years, they should be able to buckle down and at least get back to the Finals.

[niko]

So Jamison is overrated now? :oldlol: :rolleyes:

LeBron doesn't have anyone to protect the paint? He's got Shaq, Big Z, Varejao, and Hickson. Some Cavs fans like to think of Hickson as an up and coming all-star too. :lol

If the Cavs can win 65 games for two straight years, they should be able to buckle down and at least get back to the Finals.

He's overrated if you are telling me he is this clutch player. He never has been. That's a dream scenario that Cavs fans and others made up when he moved there. He's a great scorer, good rebounder although it doesn't feel like it has impact for some reason, a decent defender against slower guys. He's not a star 2nd fiddle by any means, nor is he a clutch shooter.

[RaceBannana]

Cavs have the the best well rounded roster in the league....
so if they fail to win a title, we should start pointing fingers to certain someone.

[Kingwillball]

Why is it so difficult to understand the big difference between regular season and post season. Why can't you understand that not having anyone to protect the rim on defense is a huge flaw? Why can't you understand that having guards that can't defend at all is a huge flaw?

Yes. The Cavs are one of the best teams. But you don't win titles with players that are either vastly over valued (mo williams and jamison) or players that are shells of their former selves (shaq and big z). Are you honestly going to say that the cavs can rely on players like west and hickson?

Come on now guys. If the celtics remain healthy....they have a much better team. In fact, it's not even close.


All U need to Know Ginobli Fan is the Cavs would easily beat the Spurs..

[Kingwillball]

That can be a big if....

Though I do agree, the C's theoretically can beat CLE.


Just like Theoretically Cavs can Beat Magic..

[TheTruth07]

Cavs win over Magic? I dont think so.... Except for if David Stern makes another Kings vs Lakers game

[stephanieg]

Aside from LeBron, none of the Cavs starters would start on the remaining playoff teams. Maybe Mo could start for LA. Utah could borrow a C. That's about it.

[B-Easy]

Cavs have the the best well rounded roster in the league....
so if they fail to win a title, we should start pointing fingers to certain someone.

^this is a big reason why the Cavs are overrated too....certain people with an agenda that want to hype up the team, so they have a reason to criticize Lebron.

I dont see how people think this team is stacked .. bad perimeter defense , bad interior defense, bad coaching, average rebounding.

Even on offense..most of Mos buckets are catch and shoot..or come off a screen and shoot..same with Jamisons, his buckets consist catching the ball on the move, taking a couple dribbles and throwing a runner/floater

Hickson, Varejao, Moon, Parker, all their scoring is moving w/o the ball and hope Lebron sets them up.

Shaq is the 2nd best player at creating his own shot, and at this point of his career hes a glorified Kendrick Perkins.

[RaceBannana]

^this is a big reason why the Cavs are overrated too....certain people with an agenda that want to hype up the team, so they have a reason to criticize Lebron.

I dont see how people think this team is stacked .. bad perimeter defense , bad interior defense, bad coaching, average rebounding.

Even on offense..most of Mos buckets are catch and shoot..or come off a screen and shoot..same with Jamisons, his buckets consist catching the ball on the move, taking a couple dribbles and throwing a runner/floater

Hickson, Varejao, Moon, Parker, all their scoring is moving w/o the ball and hope Lebron sets them up.

Shaq is the 2nd best player at creating his own shot, and at this point of his career hes a glorified Kendrick Perkins.

Sorry my friend but you are the one, downplaying the Cavs for the merit of Bron.

1) Bring the stats and show me how the cavs are a terrible defensive and rebounding team.

2) About their offense, you take the good with the bad. That scheme is what helps Lebron to get his loved stats.... Mo and West are pretty good initiators.

3) Yeah, because being a glorified KPerk is such a bad thing...

[MMM]

Sorry my friend but you are the one, downplaying the Cavs for the merit of Bron.

1) Bring the stats and show me how the cavs are a terrible defensive and rebounding team.

2) About their offense, you take the good with the bad. That scheme is what helps Lebron to get his loved stats.... Mo and West are pretty good initiators.

3) Yeah, because being a glorified KPerk is such a bad thing...

I surprised that the C's have out rebounded them so far and have more orebs when we were terrible the majority of the season on the glass especially the offensive glass

And being a glorified perk is a bad thing with the way the Cavs are rellying on Shaq to get them started.

[B-Easy]

Sorry my friend but you are the one, downplaying the Cavs for the merit of Bron.

1) Bring the stats and show me how the cavs are a terrible defensive and rebounding team.

2) About their offense, you take the good with the bad. That scheme is what helps Lebron to get his loved stats.... Mo and West are pretty good initiators.

3) Yeah, because being a glorified KPerk is such a bad thing...


Im not a stats guy, but im sure the stats probably show theyre average on defense and rebounding ever since the Jamison trade.

[All Net]

Since this thread seems to be bumped up everytime the Cavs lose a game are they still overrated after they win a game? just wondering.

[DukeDelonte13]

Since this thread seems to be bumped up everytime the Cavs lose a game are they still overrated after they win a game? just wondering.

:confusedshrug: depends on the last game they played.

[Amil23]

Aside from LeBron, none of the Cavs starters would start on the remaining playoff teams. Maybe Mo could start for LA. Utah could borrow a C. That's about it.
:lol :roll: Yeah rite

[ginobli2311]

:lol :roll: Yeah rite

Last night just shows why they are over-rated. Sure....if Lebron goes nuts then they are almost unbeatable because they are a great front running team. And by to nuts...i mean Lebron gets over 35 / 8 / 8. But if they are in a close game and Lebron is not playing out of this world....they are just average. Everyone other than Lebron tightens up.....and they struggle defending in the half court in tight games.

They need Lebron to literally do everything.....and no team can win it all relying on one player.

[indiefan24]

People seem to be under the impression that Lebron finally has this great supporting cast, WRONG!

Do people really think Jamison is a little worse than guys like Gasol/Amare? His impact on a game is not half of that

Theyve been needing monster games from Lebron all year to beat anyone from contenders to lottery teams.

A truly deep and stacked team doesnt go 1-6 w/o their best player.

And Jamison/Shaq is a bad frontcourt defensively. Mo/Parker is a bad backcourt defensively.


Theyre not getting past the Magic.

maybe a lil bit

[B-Easy]

The depth argument is part of the reason why theyre overrated ..... Having the best 8th-12th mans wont mean much..Gibson, Telfair, Powe, etc wont have much of an impact. Much better to have talent at the top like LA or Orlando.

Just because you have a guy that can get 40-10-10 any game doesnt make you a great team. Just look at last years 66 win team that got exposed.

Biggest indicator of how good a team is .. is how well they play with their best player out or with their best player on the bench.

Magic, Lakers ... even Denver, Portland, Dallas, look more impressive than the Cavs w/o their best player. It just shows you plug in Lebron on any playoff team and they possibly end up with the best record.

Cavs being a stacked team is an illusion .. they took a step forward offensively but a step back on defense.

.............................

again, why is anyone surprised this team cant get any stops? -

Mo and Jamison, their defense is embarassing. Even Arroyo and Micheal Beasley did a better job defensively on the Cs.

[c's fan 010]

yep

[ginobli2311]

I know the series is not over yet. But things do not look good. Hate to say I told you so.....but what the hell:

I TOLD YOU:

You can't win with what the Cavs have. Last night proved all the points me and my fellow supporters have been saying for weeks. The Cavs are only a good team when Lebron plays really well and does everything. Lebron's greatness is lost on some of you because you are so used to watching a player that consistently scores, rebounds, defends, passes, and creates everything for his team. When he has an off night the Cavs crumble.....a good team would pick up the slack and carry their superstar to at least the 4th qtr.

What happened last night? Lebron scores 15 points on 14 shots....grabs 6 boards and has 7 assists. Far from a truly terrible game. Also, he didn't jack up 30 shots the way a lot of players do when they are off. He got to the free throw line a lot and tried to get his teammates involved because he wasn't himself. He actually played the game the right way.......why would he keep shooting if he knew he was ice cold and he couldnt get anything going?????

It just shows you how awful a coach mike brown is and guys like mo/jamison are just not capable of carrying a team for a couple qtrs let alone a game. You can't win with that.......like i keep saying. The proof is out there.....

Lebron is by far the best player in the world right now....its not even close. His team is over-rated because he carries their sorry asses to heights that they should never see. Thats the harsh truth. I hope the Cavs lose and Lebron leaves and winds up in Chicago or just anywhere that has at least one other great player.

By the way. Rose/Lebron/Noah on the bulls would win 6 of the next 8t titles. Book it.

[Freshprince619]

Lebron James is overrated. That is all. The man is just a stat-padder. Replace Lebron with Wade and they are going to the finals EASILY. Dwade was playing with D-League scrubs and still went out to drop 46 in the C's even thought they had no chance of winning the series. Lebron is taking this Championship Team for granted. Lebron gave up on his team. How the f*ck are people blaming his supporting cast Lebron didnt make a shot the whole first half and Boston was up by a couple points. What other superstar can make ZERO shots in a whole half and game still be close? NONE. Cavaliers better pursue Dwade during Free agency

[Kingwillball]

Lebron James is overrated. That is all. The man is just a stat-padder. Replace Lebron with Wade and they are going to the finals EASILY. Dwade was playing with D-League scrubs and still went out to drop 46 in the C's even thought they had no chance of winning the series. Lebron is taking this Championship Team for granted. Lebron gave up on his team. How the f*ck are people blaming his supporting cast Lebron didnt make a shot the whole first half and Boston was up by a couple points. What other superstar can make ZERO shots in a whole half and game still be close? NONE. Cavaliers better pursue Dwade during Free agency


NOT..Sorry Dude Lebron is better than Wade so it doesn't work..

[MagicalLA]

:roll:

[Freshprince619]

NOT..Sorry Dude Lebron is better than Wade so it doesn't work..
Yeah if you believe whatever ESPN tells you. Wade was playing 5 on 1 and still pt up 35 ppg on 60% shooting. Lebron has a MUCH better team where celtics cant triple team Leborn because of how stacked the team is.Lebron doesnt have the mental toughness nor the winner mentality wade has. Wade is a proven winner. Lebron just has stats to show for his play.

Wade> Lebron and i think it should be pretty cut clear

[RedBlackAttack]

I know the series is not over yet. But things do not look good. Hate to say I told you so.....but what the hell:

I TOLD YOU

This team was put together to beat Orlando. I think they did a good job of constructing a squad that has the right pieces to do that. The only problem... Celtics.

If only ATL had landed in that No. 4 spot and not the Cs, we may have never seen these glaring holes, because I think the Cavs match up much better against the Magic, Lakers, and Suns than they do against the Celtics.

Last year, Orlando had the Cavs' kryptonite... This year, it is the Cs. They have the worst possible matchups for us at PG and PF and they can match us at the other spots.

They also are at their best playing a slow tempo, which we have to take part in anytime Shaq is on the court.

[ginobli2311]

This team was put together to beat Orlando. I think they did a good job of constructing a squad that has the right pieces to do that. The only problem... Celtics.

If only ATL had landed in that No. 4 spot and not the Cs, we may have never seen these glaring holes, because I think the Cavs match up much better against the Magic, Lakers, and Suns than they do against the Celtics.

Last year, Orlando had the Cavs' kryptonite... This year, it is the Cs. They have the worst possible matchups for us at PG and PF and they can match us at the other spots.

They also are at their best playing a slow tempo, which we have to take part in anytime Shaq is on the court.

Agreed. However, this Cavs team has no chance to beat the Magic or Lakers in a series....just none. So lets not act like its merely a matchup problem. The Cavs just aren't a great team....the are really good and they have great player, but thats about it. Not a legit title contender though....sorry.

[Doranku]

This team was put together to beat Orlando. I think they did a good job of constructing a squad that has the right pieces to do that. The only problem... Celtics.

If only ATL had landed in that No. 4 spot and not the Cs, we may have never seen these glaring holes, because I think the Cavs match up much better against the Magic, Lakers, and Suns than they do against the Celtics.

Last year, Orlando had the Cavs' kryptonite... This year, it is the Cs. They have the worst possible matchups for us at PG and PF and they can match us at the other spots.

They also are at their best playing a slow tempo, which we have to take part in anytime Shaq is on the court.

I'm not buying this. This team was put together to appease LeBron with big names regardless of how it affected the team's chemistry. Sure, they brought in Shaq to 'neutralize' Dwight, but what about the other guys?

What specific advantages did Jamison and Moon bring to the table against the Magic? The Cavs organization simply went out and signed/traded for as big of names as they could to satisfy LeBron's desire for a better supporting cast. It really has nothing to do with Orlando.

Oh, and if the Cavs are at their best playing a slow tempo, how in the world are the PHOENIX SUNS a better match-up? If Rondo is picking apart your defense, imagine what Steve Nash would do. An aging KG is getting whatever he wants against Jamison. Again, imagine what Amare would do. If anything, I think the Suns are a worse match-up for the Cavs than the Celtics are.

[ginobli2311]

I'm not buying this. This team was put together to appease LeBron with big names regardless of how it affected the team's chemistry. Sure, they brought in Shaq to 'neutralize' Dwight, but what about the other guys?

What specific advantages did Jamison and Moon bring to the table against the Magic? The Cavs organization simply went out and signed/traded for as big of names as they could to satisfy LeBron's desire for a better supporting cast. It really has nothing to do with Orlando.

Oh, and if the Cavs are at their best playing a slow tempo, how in the world are the PHOENIX SUNS a better match-up? If Rondo is picking apart your defense, imagine what Steve Nash would do. An aging KG is getting whatever he wants against Jamison. Again, imagine what Amare would do. If anything, I think the Suns are a worse match-up for the Cavs than the Celtics are.

Good post. The Cavs are just a poorly built team. They went after names and not what they actually need.

[RedBlackAttack]

I'm not buying this. This team was put together to appease LeBron with big names regardless of how it affected the team's chemistry. Sure, they brought in Shaq to 'neutralize' Dwight, but what about the other guys?

Here are the matchup problems that Orlando gave us last year...

1. We had no one that could defend Dwight Howard one-on-one. He either killed Big Z/Varejao/Wallace when we played him straight up or we had to double down and it opened up things for their outside shooters.

What did the Cavs do? Signed Shaq, who has a history of being a good one-on-one defender for Howard, he can get Howard in foul trouble, and he enables us to play them straight up.

2. Even when we did get out to contest Orlando's shooters, they had too much size on the outside with Hedo (obviously gone), Lewis, Pietrus, and even Courtney Lee (also gone) for our small backcourt and subs. Last year, we had both Delonte and Mo in the starting lineup.

LeBron was put on Rafer for the majority of the series so he could play centerfield and come with traps/doubles (and also to save himself for the offense that we needed from him). This left the likes of Delonte, Mo, Boobie Gibson, Wally Szczerbiak, etc. to get out and cover their SGs and SFs.

We simply did not have the size and athleticism to contest their jumpshooters and, even when we did get out and in their faces, they would rise over those little guys.

So, what do we do in the offseason? Get Anthony Parker and Jamario Moon. Parker offers more length at the 2 to contest against a jumpshooting team. Moon is a versatile, athletic 2/3 off of the bench that could match against the likes of Lee, Hedo, Pietrus, and Lewis and at least make things more difficult for them than Boobie, Wally, Mo, or Delonte.

3. We had conventional 4s attempting to check an unconventional PF in Lewis. Varejao and Joe Smith were being forced to step out of their comfort zones and become perimeter defenders because of Lewis/Pietrus. This took away the strengths of Smith and Varejao, in that they were too far away from the hoop to block shots, take charges, or grab rebounds.

What do the Cavs do? Sign guys like Moon and Powe who could, theoretically, match against Lewis in certain situations and then they get an unconventional 4 of their own in Jamison, who is used to playing on the perimeter.

Jamison can also be a stretch 4, disabling Orlando's game-plan of playing off of Varejao/Wallace when they are on the floor and crowding the lane when LeBron drives to the hoop.


All of this should be relatively obvious.

[Doranku]

Here are the matchup problems that Orlando gave us last year...

1. We had no one that could defend Dwight Howard one-on-one. He either killed Big Z/Varejao/Wallace when we played him straight up or we had to double down and it opened up things for their outside shooters.

What did the Cavs do? Signed Shaq, who has a history of being a good one-on-one defender for Howard, he can get Howard in foul trouble, and he enables us to play them straight up.

2. Even when we did get out to contest Orlando's shooters, they had too much size on the outside with Hedo (obviously gone), Lewis, Pietrus, and even Courtney Lee (also gone) for our small backcourt and subs. Last year, we had both Delonte and Mo in the starting lineup.

LeBron was put on Rafer for the majority of the series so he could play centerfield and come with traps/doubles (and also to save himself for the offense that we needed from him). This left the likes of Delonte, Mo, Boobie Gibson, Wally Szczerbiak, etc. to get out and cover their SGs and SFs.

We simply did not have the size and athleticism to contest their jumpshooters and, even when we did get out and in their faces, they would rise over those little guys.

So, what do we do in the offseason? Get Anthony Parker and Jamario Moon. Parker offers more length at the 2 to contest against a jumpshooting team. Moon is a versatile, athletic 2/3 off of the bench that could match against the likes of Lee, Hedo, Pietrus, and Lewis and at least make things more difficult for them than Boobie, Wally, Mo, or Delonte.

3. We had conventional 4s attempting to check an unconventional PF in Lewis. Varejao and Joe Smith were being forced to step out of their comfort zones and become perimeter defenders because of Lewis/Pietrus. This took away the strengths of Smith and Varejao, in that they were too far away from the hoop to block shots, take charges, or grab rebounds.

What do the Cavs do? Sign guys like Moon and Powe who could, theoretically, match against Lewis in certain situations and then they get an unconventional 4 of their own in Jamison, who is used to playing on the perimeter.

Jamison can also be a stretch 4, disabling Orlando's game-plan of playing off of Varejao/Wallace when they are on the floor and crowding the lane when LeBron drives to the hoop.


All of this should be relatively obvious.

The Powe signing is irrelevant. He won't get any playing time, and regardless, he wouldn't do any better on Shard than Varejao would.

There is no more Rafer Alston, so why do you need guys to guard Shard or Pietrus when you have LeBron? He won't be able to coast defensively against Nelson like he did against Skip, so he's gotta play somebody. If you have Moon on Shard (lol), then LeBron will be on...? Pietrus? Barnes? VC? Take your pick.

Let's say he covers Pietrus or Barnes, which is the most likely case scenario. Obviously Shaq will be guarding Howard. That leaves Nelson to tear up Mo Williams, and VC. Who do you put on VC? The way I see it, there are two options:

Don't have Moon on Shard, put Jamison out there instead on him and have Moon guard VC. Jamison is notoriously bad on defense, and just because he's theoretically a better match-up for Shard doesn't mean anything when you factor his actual defensive capabilities. Shard is very underrated in the post, and will probably get whatever he wants against Jamison just the way KG has in this series.

The other option is leaving Moon on Shard, and putting Anthony Parker out there to cover VC. Then the line-up looks something like:

Mo/Parker/LeBron/Moon/Shaq. If you think the Cavs offense is ugly now, wait until you see that heaping mess. Moon for the most part is an offensive liability, there's no rebounding, and there's no post-matchups to exploit for Lebron because he HAS NO POST GAME.

Either way, there's still mismatches all across the board, except for Shaq on Howard.

[jbot]

I beg to disagree. Cavs are no longer a one man team. I expect the Cavs to beat the Magic in the playoffs because the Cavs have one of the deepest benches in the league.
wow. denial at it worst.

[RedBlackAttack]

Either way, there's still mismatches all across the board, except for Shaq on Howard.

You just went through and explained why the Magic are still a difficult team to matchup with and why they would be prohibited favorites if that series miraculously still happened. I agree that they are still a huge hurdle that would be incredibly difficult to clear.

However, that was not the point that I was addressing. What had been said was that Ferry simply went after 'name' players with no rhyme or reason. I went through, one-by-one, and explained each new signing.

To put it concisely... Besides simply out-playing us last year, Orlando beat us because of three major reasons...

We had no one to match against DHo, our backcourt was too small to match their big shooters, and we had conventional 4s attempting to defend unconventional PFs.

What were the areas that were addressed by the Cavs? We got perhaps the best one-on-one defender against DHo, added length at both the 2 and 3 spots, and added an unconventional 4.

All three of those areas were addressed with each off-season move. Whether you think they were good moves for good players or whether or not we would still beat the Magic in a playoff series is really conjecture and beside the point. All of the moves did have rhyme and reason, as I detailed in my previous post.

[BallsOut]

I beg to disagree. Cavs are no longer a one man team. I expect the Cavs to beat the Magic in the playoffs because the Cavs have one of the deepest benches in the league.

You expect the Cavs to beat the Magic? WTF, no respect at all to the Celtics, and look what happened.

I apologize to the real Cavalier fans for having to put up with this bandwagoner Lebron23's arrogance. The guy has been m.i.a. since the Celtics won game 4. Probably making a Lebron23Knicks account as we speak. :oldlol:

[Micku]

NOT..Sorry Dude Lebron is better than Wade so it doesn't work..

I think so too, but it's weird that Wade played better than LeBron against the Celts. LeBron and Wade never had a hard time playing against the Celts this year, but LBJ had a pretty bad series against them in the postseason. The thing is that Wade didn't have teammates while LBJ did. I think if the Heat would've had a better team, they would've gave the Celts a better challenge than the Cavs.

[amfirst]

Well I'm sure LeBron had plenty bad games and the Cavs win. U just can't win against the Celts if ur star plays bad. U think the Lakers can beat the Celts if Kobe plays bad? People need to stop riding LeBron nuts, he couldn't deliver, stop blaming his team mates. The guy is in his prime. Kobe in his prime will go down blazing. LeBron just chicken out.

Sure Kobe has bad games and still win against mediocre teams, not good teams. People and their excuses.

[B-Easy]

yep, told ya .. I heard Breen call this a "shocking upset" lol .

People need to watch the regular season and how they won their games, not just the standings.

[ds123]

Lebron James is overrated. That is all. The man is just a stat-padder. Replace Lebron with Wade and they are going to the finals EASILY. Dwade was playing with D-League scrubs and still went out to drop 46 in the C's even thought they had no chance of winning the series. Lebron is taking this Championship Team for granted. Lebron gave up on his team. How the f*ck are people blaming his supporting cast Lebron didnt make a shot the whole first half and Boston was up by a couple points. What other superstar can make ZERO shots in a whole half and game still be close? NONE. Cavaliers better pursue Dwade during Free agency


Umm, Kobe responded to all the criticism from letting the Thunder tie up the series in Game 5 with a whopping 8 point performance. Of course, it doesn't matter because they blew out OKC by 25+ that game. That's the difference between these 2 teams.



Kobe drops 8, LAL can still blow out a team. And no one cares.
LBJ drops 27/20/10 or something in Game6 and lose, and people say he shoulda dropped 45 like Wade.

[Kingwillball]

just watched press conf with Ferry and he said team was playing best ball going into playoffs and couldn't get it going..also said if it was regular season lebron would be sitting for a couple weeks at least.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Kobe drops 8, LAL can still blow out a team. And no one cares.
LBJ drops 27/20/10 or something in Game6 and lose, and people say he shoulda dropped 45 like Wade.

conveniently left out 9 turnovers.
and what was his FG%?

Mo Williams had a better game than Lebron (or just as good/bad).

[ds123]

conveniently left out 9 turnovers.
and what was his FG%?

Mo Williams had a better game than Lebron (or just as good/bad).


What does that have to do with anything? 27/20/10 with 9 turnovers. OK, it's been declared.


How does that alter my point? If LBJ doesn't drop 40/20/10 the sky is falling. Duncan, Kobe, any one of the Boston big 3(or 4) can be totally off and their teams can win. LBJ is off and the ramifications are magnified 100x because the Cavs have no one else.

[B-Easy]

looking back .. its funny seeing people that thought the Cavs were stacked.

I thought they had a bad team around Lebron ... but theyre even worst than I thought.

[OmniStrife]

looking back .. its funny seeing people that thought the Cavs were stacked.

I thought they had a bad team around Lebron ... but theyre even worst than I thought.
They were stacked, stacked with a LeBron James.

[Noyze]

looking back .. its funny seeing people that thought the Cavs were stacked.

I thought they had a bad team around Lebron ... but theyre even worst than I thought.

You look like a profit when you first made this thread. The only player they lost was LeBron (well and Z) and look how bad they are. In the playoffs you could see they weren't a resilient team and it's showing this season.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Hmm too much win with some posters like Ginobili, STATMAN, B-EASY and crisoner in this thread, wise enough to read they were vastly overrated at that time. Others failed hard, no need to give those names.

:lol

[Mr. Jabbar]

They were stacked, stacked with a LeBron James.

yep

[PurpleChuck]

Wow it's been some time since I've seen so much fail and win all in one thread,:lol

[ginobli2311]

great bump. delusional cavs fans and lebron haters at their finest trying to convince us still the cavs were a great team.

LOL.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Wow it's been some time since I've seen so much fail and win all in one thread,:lol


It's funny to look at some phonys going all knowledgeable about Cavaliers Depth...:lol

[PurpleChuck]

great bump. delusional cavs fans and lebron haters at their finest trying to convince us still the cavs were a great team.

LOL.

It's funny to look at some phonys going all knowledgeable about Cavaliers Depth...:lol
:roll: :lol :oldlol:

Win and fail and win and fail, like a roller coaster this thread.

[mashbelly]

Others failed hard, no need to give those names.
:lol

I'll do it:



http://imgur.com/XGOjs.jpg



haha had to post this pic. I love it.



I beg to disagree. Cavs are no longer a one man team. I expect the Cavs to beat the Magic in the playoffs because the Cavs have one of the deepest benches in the league.



Nope...




They are stacked. Not with all stars like the Lakers, but they are just deep. They are way deeper than Orlando, despite what someone might tell you, but yes... it all hinges on LeBron. I think you should trust him by now.

-Smak



1 week avatar bet. Cavs beat the Magic in the playoffs. Last year team overachieved in the Regular Season. The 2008-09 Cavaliers struggled againts the elite teams.

2010 Cavaliers would sweep the 2009 Cavaliers in a best of 7 series.

:pimp: :pimp: :pimp:



The only thing slightly overrated is their defense, it doesn't look as good as it used to. Otherwise, they're the real deal.



well, they are probably not gonna sweep all of the opponents on their way to the title, that's for sure...



So, what can he do with the best team he's ever had?



:roll: you got some nerve lmao



This year is different. They are more stack.



What on earth makes the Cavs overrated? because many have them as the favourites to win it all? hmm



Not really. People like Leon Powe and Daniel Gibson don't even play on the team cause its so deep!


:roll: :roll: :roll:

[asdf1990]

One man added what looks like 40 -50 wins to a team lol.

[Shax]

When your best player has to go for 30+/8/8 on 50% shooting to win most games, something is wrong.

no shit they suck now. :lol

[PurpleChuck]

mashbelly doing work!

Lol wins and fails, epic thread.

[ginobli2311]

mashbelly doing work!

Lol wins and fails, epic thread.

just priceless. nothing else to say. i remember getting so frustrated with people calling jamison a great 2nd option or mo one of the best pg's in the game. or mike brown a great coach.

or the endless propping up of parker and hickson and moon.

not it just looks sad. damn that is satisfying. kind of forgot about this thread.

[PurpleChuck]

just priceless. nothing else to say. i remember getting so frustrated with people calling jamison a great 2nd option or mo one of the best pg's in the game. or mike brown a great coach.

or the endless propping up of parker and hickson and moon.

not it just looks sad. damn that is satisfying. kind of forgot about this thread.

lol we won't forget.

epic-ness @ mike brown, great coach.:lol

[Kingwillball]

Not to rehash anything but Just shows how good and how Important Lebron is.. They will probably have a 30- 35 more losses this year without him, and that i s with a better coach to boot..

[ginobli2311]

The first two games in the Boston series just shows you what wins in the playoffs. You need multiple great players and great defense. Cleveland doesn't have that and that is why they won't win the title let alone get past the magic and celtics. Mo can't even remotely limit Rondo at all. Jamison can't even remotely limit KG at all. Shaq is a non factor. You can't win a title if mo williams or jamison is your 2nd best player. You just can't. Look at this series so far.....its going very similar to the Magic series last year. The Cavs aren't defending.....they have 2 really bad mismatches.....and if Lebron doesn't go for 38/8/8 they have no chance.

This just in. If your second best player goes 1-9 for 4 points and also lets the man he is guarding go for 14 points and 19 assists....uhhhhhh....you can't win. I mean....Pierce is playing awful and the Celtics should have still won both games.

As I said a million times before. No team has ever won a title with players like mo/jamison/shaq being heavily relied on. Not one of them can play any defense. Mo has clearly shown he's not capable of playing well in a tough series on either end of the floor. Jamison just can't hand with KG for a full game. Shaq is just ****ing old.... he does nothing but slow down the game (which is awful for the cavs) and he can't score or defend.

I hate to say it, but unless Lebron steps it up to another level, the Cavs are going down in 6 again this year. This time it will be in the 2nd round.....****.

one of my favorite posts in this thread. could i see the future?