Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?

[alexandreben]

We all know the stats that Wilt's scoring number dropped a lot in the playoffs compare with regular season, any idea is welcome, and I want to use an example of 1961-62 season to settle a tone that it's not the reason of Celtics or any other Wilt's opponents, I would prefer the idea of the coach issue or the teamate issue or even the play call issue maybe?

In 1961-62 season, Wilt's scoring stats:
regular: 50 ppg
playoff: 35 ppg (on NATS and CELTICS)

during the playoffs, in the first round Wilt's scoring V.S. NATS:
G1: 32 pts
G2: 28 pts
G3: 40 pts
G4: 29 pts
G5: 56 pts
Wilt's scoring stats has dropped to 37 ppg in the first round vs NATS already.

and the second round of playoffs vs CELTICS:
G1: 33 pts
G2: 42 pts
G3: 35 pts
G4: 41 pts
G5: 30 pts
G6: 32 pts
G7: 22 pts
Wilt averaged 33.6 pts vs CELTICS

Wilt scored 37 ppg vs nats and 33 pts vs celtics, hence, Wilt's scoring stats dropped in the playoffs has nothing to do with CELTICS or Bill Russell, I think the reason could be the same in some other seasons as well. Anyone care to share some insight how come Wilt's stats dropped in playoffs?

[dough]

Because it was harder to be a statpadder in the playoffs than it was during the regular season?

[xtn5021]

Oh god....

[tommyhtc]

are we hatin on wilt again?

[jlauber]

I think that season's playoffs were covered in another thread, but, at least in the Syracuse series, I believe that Psileas dug up a newspaper article which cited the fact that Wilt had been more of a facilitator until the last game of that series.

As for the Celtic series, let's give some credit to Russell and the Celtics. Not only that, but Wilt averaged a staggering 50 ppg during the course of the regular season, but it dropped to 40 ppg against Boston during the regular season. So, in essence, his scoring dropped by about 5-6 ppg against the greatest Dynasty, and the greatest defensive center in NBA history. I certainly don't think that is such a huge drop.

And, really, that 61-62 season post-season was his only real dramatic difference between the regular season and playoffs in his career...except for the 68-69 playoffs, where his COACH's strategy caused a drop from 21 ppg down to 14.

I get a kick out of those that attempt to use Wilt's post-season scoring numbers against him. In his first six post-season's, he averaged 33 ppg and 26 rpg. During the same time, his regular season numbers were 39.4 ppg. Maybe a drop-off, but how many other players in NBA history have averaged 33 ppg in six post-seasons? Obviously MJ was one, and maybe Jerry West.

Furthermore, Wilt's already astonishing rebounding numbers climbed in the post-season, from 22.9 rpg to 24.5 rpg.

So, yes, Wilt's overall scoring dropped a little in the post-season, but even then, when you factor in rebounding, his defense, his passing, ...hard to arguie with just how great he really was in the post-season.

[Rambis]

Shrinked? Really?

[alexandreben]

are we hatin on wilt again?
I don't hate Wilt, nobody hates Wilt, I personally a big fan of Wilt, just try to figure out why the significant difference between reg. and playoffs season, I am sure some people here can provide some wonderful ideas through different angles.

[alexandreben]

I think that season's playoffs were covered in another thread
Can you post a linkage of the thread please?

[alexandreben]

Adding some raw stats of Wilt's regular and playoffs:

Wilt Chamberlain regular season and playoffs stats comparison
Regular season
Season Age Tm G MP FG FGA FG% FT FTA FT% TRB AST PF PTS
1959-60 23 PHW 72 46.4 14.8 32.1 .461 8.0 13.8 .582 27.0 2.3 2.1 37.6
1960-61 24 PHW 79 47.8 15.8 31.1 .509 6.7 13.3 .504 27.2 1.9 1.6 38.4
1961-62 25 PHW 80 48.5 20.0 39.5 .506 10.4 17.0 .613 25.7 2.4 1.5 50.4
1962-63 26 SFW 80 47.6 18.3 34.6 .528 8.3 13.9 .593 24.3 3.4 1.7 44.8
1963-64 27 SFW 80 46.1 15.1 28.7 .524 6.8 12.7 .531 22.3 5.0 2.3 36.9
1964-65 28 TOT 73 45.2 14.6 28.5 .510 5.6 12.1 .464 22.9 3.4 2.0 34.7
1964-65 28 SFW 38 45.9 16.7 33.6 .499 5.5 13.2 .416 23.5 3.1 2.0 38.9
1964-65 28 PHI 35 44.5 12.2 23.1 .528 5.7 10.9 .526 22.3 3.8 2.0 30.1
1965-66 29 PHI 79 47.3 13.6 25.2 .540 6.3 12.4 .513 24.6 5.2 2.2 33.5
1966-67 30 PHI 81 45.5 9.7 14.2 .683 4.8 10.8 .441 24.2 7.8 1.8 24.1
1967-68 31 PHI 82 46.8 10.0 16.8 .595 4.3 11.4 .380 23.8 8.6 2.0 24.3
1968-69 32 LAL 81 45.3 7.9 13.6 .583 4.7 10.6 .446 21.1 4.5 1.8 20.5
1969-70 33 LAL 12 42.1 10.8 18.9 .568 5.8 13.1 .446 18.4 4.1 2.6 27.3
1970-71 34 LAL 82 44.3 8.1 15.0 .545 4.4 8.2 .538 18.2 4.3 2.1 20.7
1971-72 35 LAL 82 42.3 6.0 9.3 .649 2.7 6.4 .422 19.2 4.0 2.4 14.8
1972-73 36 LAL 82 43.2 5.2 7.1 .727 2.8 5.5 .510 18.6 4.5 2.3 13.2
Career 1045 45.8 12.1 22.5 .540 5.8 11.4 .511 22.9 4.4 2.0 30.1
Playoffs
Season Age Tm G MP FG FGA FG% FT FTA FT% TRB AST PF PTS
1959-60 23 PHW 9 46.1 13.9 28.0 .496 5.4 12.2 .445 25.8 2.1 1.9 33.2
1960-61 24 PHW 3 48.0 15.0 32.0 .469 7.0 12.7 .553 23.0 2.0 3.3 37.0
1961-62 25 PHW 12 48.0 13.5 28.9 .467 8.0 12.6 .636 26.6 3.1 2.3 35.0
1963-64 27 SFW 12 46.5 14.6 26.8 .543 5.5 11.6 .475 25.2 3.3 2.3 34.7
1964-65 28 PHI 11 48.7 11.2 21.1 .530 6.9 12.4 .559 27.2 4.4 2.6 29.3
1965-66 29 PHI 5 48.0 11.2 22,0 .509 5.6 13.6 .412 30.2 3.0 2.0 28.0
1966-67 30 PHI 15 47.9 8.8 15.2 .579 4.1 10.7 .388 29.1 9.0 2.5 21.7
1967-68 31 PHI 13 48.5 9.5 17.8 .534 4.6 12.2 .380 24.7 6.5 2.2 23.7
1968-69 32 LAL 18 46.2 5.3 9.8 .545 3.2 8.2 .392 24.7 2.6 2.6 13.9
1969-70 33 LAL 18 47.3 8.8 16,0 .549 4.6 11.2 .406 22.2 4.5 2.3 22.1
1970-71 34 LAL 12 46.2 7.1 15.6 .455 4.2 8.1 .515 20.2 4.4 2.8 18.3
1971-72 35 LAL 15 46.9 5.3 9.5 .563 4.0 8.1 .492 21.0 3.3 3.1 14.7
1972-73 36 LAL 17 47.1 3.8 6.8 .552 2.9 5.8 .500 22.5 3.5 2.8 10.4
Career 160 47.2 8.9 17.1 .522 4.7 10.2 .465 24.5 4.2 2.5 22.5

[Kiddlovesnets]

Because of him...

http://gospelspectrum.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/bill-russell.jpg

[alexandreben]

Because of him...

http://gospelspectrum.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/bill-russell.jpg
Wilt's stats has shrinked to 37 ppg already when against NATS in the first round of the playoffs in 1962 which's the year that he averaged 50 ppg in regular season.

[Batz]

Fatigue? Kick-Ass lockdown defense?

[Abraham Lincoln]

I think that season's playoffs were covered in another thread, but, at least in the Syracuse series, I believe that Psileas dug up a newspaper article which cited the fact that Wilt had been more of a facilitator until the last game of that series.

As for the Celtic series, let's give some credit to Russell and the Celtics. Not only that, but Wilt averaged a staggering 50 ppg during the course of the regular season, but it dropped to 40 ppg against Boston during the regular season. So, in essence, his scoring dropped by about 5-6 ppg against the greatest Dynasty, and the greatest defensive center in NBA history. I certainly don't think that is such a huge drop.

And, really, that 61-62 season post-season was his only real dramatic difference between the regular season and playoffs in his career...except for the 68-69 playoffs, where his COACH's strategy caused a drop from 21 ppg down to 14.

I get a kick out of those that attempt to use Wilt's post-season scoring numbers against him. In his first six post-season's, he averaged 33 ppg and 26 rpg. During the same time, his regular season numbers were 39.4 ppg. Maybe a drop-off, but how many other players in NBA history have averaged 33 ppg in six post-seasons? Obviously MJ was one, and maybe Jerry West.

Furthermore, Wilt's already astonishing rebounding numbers climbed in the post-season, from 22.9 rpg to 24.5 rpg.

So, yes, Wilt's overall scoring dropped a little in the post-season, but even then, when you factor in rebounding, his defense, his passing, ...hard to arguie with just how great he really was in the post-season.
Indeed Russell apparently did a fine job. On another note I have seen a Celtics dynasty video from the 80's that had some extra footage of the '65 Sixers/Celtics 4th quarter (including rookie Jackson's poor inbound pass & Chamberlain's clutch foul shot). And of course the pass stolen by Havlicek. Little known is that Hondo wanted to play defense under the rim to screen Kerr off the boards for the last play, but Sam Jones insisted he had him. You can even see here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTf4HLHabU0) the bitterness in Chamberlain's facial expression reliving that moment.



The Milwaukee Sentinel - Mar 27, 1962 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=6MEVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=4RAEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5891,3230163&dq)

'Russell, unique in his ability to smother enemy offenses, set the tone of an outstanding team defensive effort as Boston opened the Eastern Division playoff finals beating Philadelphia 117-89 Saturday. The second game of the best-of 7 series will be on the Warriors' court Tuesday night.

Chamberlain scored 33 points but Russell held him to 12 in the first half when the game was being decided. "How can a guy do a better job than Russell did?" Captain Bob Cousy asked.'

[alexandreben]

Indeed Russell apparently did a fine job. On another note I have seen a Celtics dynasty video from the 80's that had some extra footage of the '65 Sixers/Celtics 4th quarter (including rookie Jackson's poor inbound pass & Chamberlain's clutch foul shot). And of course the pass stolen by Havlicek. Little known is that Hondo wanted to play defense under the rim to screen Kerr off the boards for the last play, but Sam Jones insisted he had him. You can even see here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTf4HLHabU0) the bitterness in Chamberlain's facial expression reliving that moment.



The Milwaukee Sentinel - Mar 27, 1962 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=6MEVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=4RAEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5891,3230163&dq)

'Russell, unique in his ability to smother enemy offenses, set the tone of an outstanding team defensive effort as Boston opened the Eastern Division playoff finals beating Philadelphia 117-89 Saturday. The second game of the best-of 7 series will be on the Warriors' court Tuesday night.

Chamberlain scored 33 points but Russell held him to 12 in the first half when the game was being decided. "How can a guy do a better job than Russell did?" Captain Bob Cousy asked.'
But Wilt still scored 41 ppg over Celtics in regular season, how come the stats shrinked to 33 ppg vs Celtics during the playoffs?

[ODEN>DURANT]

coz he chocked

[NinjaSeal]

Because of him...

http://gospelspectrum.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/bill-russell.jpg


lol this pic got jordan by 1 rite?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Xd7W6OPSCuI/SKx1ovWxhNI/AAAAAAAAA5A/w7sFbS9rB5g/s400/michael_jordan_trophy_rings.jpg

[Lebron23]

He forgot to wear his big boy pants.


30.1 ppg in the regular season

22.5 ppg in the playoffs.

[Lebron23]

Playoffs is a different ball game, It's much easier to dominate, and put up godly numbers in the regular season. and Wilt won 2 NBA titles after he sacrificed his offensive stats. He led his teams in rebounding, but not in scoring.

[Deuce Bigalow]

He forgot to wear his big boy pants.


30.1 ppg in the regular season

22.5 ppg in the playoffs.

Playoffs is a different ball game, It's much easier to dominate, and put up godly numbers in the regular season. and Wilt won 2 NBA titles after he sacrificed his offensive stats. He led his teams in rebounding, but not in scoring.
Lebron's regular season and playoffs ppg: 28
Lebron's Finals ppg: 23

Lebron's 2007 regular season ppg: 27
Lebron's 2007 finals ppg: 22

Lebron's 2011 regular season ppg: 27
Lebron's 2011 finals ppg: 18 (-8.9 ppg dropoff, largest dropoff in NBA history)

http://i1.sndcdn.com/avatars-000006435298-17w93t-crop.jpg

[CavaliersFTW]

He forgot to wear his big boy pants.


30.1 ppg in the regular season

22.5 ppg in the playoffs.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=260704

:cheers:

[Psileas]

OK, time to blow up the "choker" myth a bit more analytically: Wilt's regular season (RS) vs playoff (PO) scoring season by season vs the same opponent:

1960:
vs Nationals-- RS: 38, PO: 38.7 (adv. PO)
vs Celtics-- RS: 39.9, PO: 30.5 (adv. RS)

1961:
vs Nationals-- RS: 39.9, PO: 37 (adv. RS)

1962:
vs Nationals-- RS: 48, PO: 37 (adv. RS)
vs Celtics-- RS: 41.7 (incl. games that Russell missed), PO: 33.6 (adv. RS)

1964:
vs Hawks-- RS: 32.8, PO: 38.6 (adv. PO)
vs Celtics-- RS: 29.1, PO: 29.2 (adv. PO)

1965 (playing for Sixers):
vs Royals-- RS: 36.8, PO: 27.8 (adv. RS)
vs Celtics-- RS: 25.0, PO: 30.1 (adv. PO)

1966:
vs Celtics-- RS: 28.3, PO: 28 (adv. RS)

1967:
vs Royals-- RS: 28.6, PO: 28 (adv. RS)
vs Celtics-- RS: 20.3, PO: 21.6 (adv. PO)
vs Warriors-- RS: 20.7, PO: 17.7 (adv. RS)

1968:
vs Knicks-- RS: 22.6, PO: 25.5 (adv. PO)
vs Celtics-- RS: 17.1, PO: 22.1 (adv. PO)

1969:
vs Warriors-- RS: 12.6, PO: 12.0 (adv. RS)
vs Hawks-- RS: 17.9, PO: 19.2 (adv. PO)
vs Celtics-- RS: 16.3, PO: 11.7 (adv. RS)

1970:
Too small RS samples

1971:
vs Bulls-- RS: 21.2, PO: 15.7 (adv. RS)
vs Bucks-- RS: 23.2, PO: 22 (adv. RS)

1972:
vs Bulls-- RS: 8.8, PO: 14.5 (adv. PO)
vs Bucks-- RS: 13.0, PO: 10.8 (adv. RS)
vs Knicks-- RS: 16.8, PO: 19.4 (adv. PO)

1973:
vs Bulls-- RS: 11.5, PO: 12 (adv. PO)
vs Warriors-- RS: 5.7, PO: 7 (adv. PO)
vs Knicks-- RS: 9.3, PO: 11.6 (adv. PO)

RS vs PO: 13-13

Falls by 5+ ppg: 5
Raises by 5+ ppg: 4

Seems pretty even to me. Choker? I don't think so.

[Lebron23]

Lebron, Wilt, and Kobe both have 2 NBA titles as the number 1 option. Lebron might get his 3rd NBA Finals MVP if the Heat get their $hit together. Terrible defense against the Hawks today.

[LAZERUSS]

OK, time to blow up the "choker" myth a bit more analytically: Wilt's regular season (RS) vs playoff (PO) scoring season by season vs the same opponent:

1960:
vs Nationals-- RS: 38, PO: 38.7 (adv. PO)
vs Celtics-- RS: 39.9, PO: 30.5 (adv. RS)

1961:
vs Nationals-- RS: 39.9, PO: 37 (adv. RS)

1962:
vs Nationals-- RS: 48, PO: 37 (adv. RS)
vs Celtics-- RS: 41.7 (incl. games that Russell missed), PO: 33.6 (adv. RS)

1964:
vs Hawks-- RS: 32.8, PO: 38.6 (adv. PO)
vs Celtics-- RS: 29.1, PO: 29.2 (adv. PO)

1965 (playing for Sixers):
vs Royals-- RS: 36.8, PO: 27.8 (adv. RS)
vs Celtics-- RS: 25.0, PO: 30.1 (adv. PO)

1966:
vs Celtics-- RS: 28.3, PO: 28 (adv. RS)

1967:
vs Royals-- RS: 28.6, PO: 28 (adv. RS)
vs Celtics-- RS: 20.3, PO: 21.6 (adv. PO)
vs Warriors-- RS: 20.7, PO: 17.7 (adv. RS)

1968:
vs Knicks-- RS: 22.6, PO: 25.5 (adv. PO)
vs Celtics-- RS: 17.1, PO: 22.1 (adv. PO)

1969:
vs Warriors-- RS: 12.6, PO: 12.0 (adv. RS)
vs Hawks-- RS: 17.9, PO: 19.2 (adv. PO)
vs Celtics-- RS: 16.3, PO: 11.7 (adv. RS)

1970:
Too small RS samples

1971:
vs Bulls-- RS: 21.2, PO: 15.7 (adv. RS)
vs Bucks-- RS: 23.2, PO: 22 (adv. RS)

1972:
vs Bulls-- RS: 8.8, PO: 14.5 (adv. PO)
vs Bucks-- RS: 13.0, PO: 10.8 (adv. RS)
vs Knicks-- RS: 16.8, PO: 19.4 (adv. PO)

1973:
vs Bulls-- RS: 11.5, PO: 12 (adv. PO)
vs Warriors-- RS: 5.7, PO: 7 (adv. PO)
vs Knicks-- RS: 9.3, PO: 11.6 (adv. PO)

RS vs PO: 13-13

Falls by 5+ ppg: 5
Raises by 5+ ppg: 4

Seems pretty even to me. Choker? I don't think so.

Don't forget that Chamberlain also had THREE 50+ point games (one against RUSSELL) in "must-win" playoff games, and two of them came in the absolute last game of a playoff series.

He also had a 46 point "must-win" playoff game (again, against RUSSELL), as well as 45 point "must-win" game in a Finals.

And how come no one mentions just how much he DRAMATICALLY reduced his OPPOSING CENTERS in these "shrinkage" conversations?

He held Kerr to two playoff series of .376 and .296 FG%'s.

He held Russell to playoff series of .399, .399, .386, and .356.

He held Thurmond to series of .398, .373, and .343.

He held Bellamy (who shot .541 against the NBA in the regular season) to a .421 series (while scoring 25 ppg on .584 shooting himself.)

He held a prime/peak KAJ to series' of .481 and .457 (in seasons in which he shot .577 and .574 against the NBA.)

And, he outrebounded every player he faced in the 29 post-season series in which he played, too.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt faced RUSSELL and the Celtics EIGHT times in the post-season.

Let's compare MJ and Shaq's numbers against their biggest playoff rivals shall we?

MJ vs the Pistons:

87-88: Regular season against NBA. 35.0 ppg on .535 FG%
Against Detroit: 27.4 ppg on .491 FG%

88-89: Regular season. 32.5 ppg on .538 FG%
Against Detroit: 29.7 ppg on .460 FG%

89-90: Regular season. 33.6 ppg on .526 FG%
Against Detroit: 32.1 ppg on .467 FG%

90-91: Regular season. 31.5 ppg on .539 FG%
Against Detroit: 29.8 ppg on .535 FG%


Shaq vs. San Antonio:

98-99: Regular season. 26.3 ppg on .576 FG%
Against the Spurs: 23.8 ppg on .493 FG%

00-01: Regular season. 28.7 ppg on .572 FG%
Against the Spurs: 27.0 ppg on .541 FG%

01-02: Regular season. 27.2 ppg on .579 FG%
Against the Spurs: 21.4 ppg on .447 FG%

02-03: Regular season. 27.5 ppg on .574 FG%
Against the Spurs: 25.3 ppg on .559 FG%

03-04: Regular season. 21.5 ppg on .584 FG%
Against the Spurs. 22.5 ppg on .635 FG%

[Mr Feeny]

As shocking as that is, he is even worse in the finals. An 18 ppg scorer. The guy was the definition of a choker.

22 ppg for a playoff career is just pathetic for someone who is supposedly one of the best scorers in the game. :roll:

[Mr Feeny]

Wilt faced RUSSELL and the Celtics EIGHT times in the post-season.

Let's compare MJ and Shaq's numbers against their biggest playoff rivals shall we?

MJ vs the Pistons:

87-88: Regular season against NBA. 35.0 ppg on .535 FG%
Against Detroit: 27.4 ppg on .491 FG%

88-89: Regular season. 32.5 ppg on .538 FG%
Against Detroit: 29.7 ppg on .460 FG%

89-90: Regular season. 33.6 ppg on .526 FG%
Against Detroit: 32.1 ppg on .467 FG%

90-91: Regular season. 31.5 ppg on .539 FG%
Against Detroit: 29.8 ppg on .535 FG%


Shaq vs. San Antonio:

98-99: Regular season. 26.3 ppg on .576 FG%
Against the Spurs: 23.8 ppg on .493 FG%

00-01: Regular season. 28.7 ppg on .572 FG%
Against the Spurs: 27.0 ppg on .541 FG%

01-02: Regular season. 27.2 ppg on .579 FG%
Against the Spurs: 21.4 ppg on .447 FG%

02-03: Regular season. 27.5 ppg on .574 FG%
Against the Spurs: 25.3 ppg on .559 FG%

03-04: Regular season. 21.5 ppg on .584 FG%
Against the Spurs. 22.5 ppg on .635 FG%

Not much of a dropoff by either there. In any case, they were discussing playoff careers and the dropoff from regular season to post season scoring.

MJ averaged 30.1 ppg in the regular season and 33.6 in the playoffs
Wilt averaged 30.1 ppg in the regular season and 22 in the playoffs.

Something about that stands out.

[LAZERUSS]

As shocking as that is, he is even worse in the finals. An 18 ppg scorer. The guy was the definition of a choker.

22 ppg for a playoff career is just pathetic for someone who is supposedly one of the best scorers in the game. :roll:

Of course he only played in one Finals in his "scoring" seasons, and was "held" to a 29.2 ppg, 27.8 rpg, .517 FG% series by Russell (in a post-season that shot .420.)

Oh, and he outshot all six of his opposing centers (all of them in the HOF BTW) from the floor, and usually by huge margins; and of course, he just crushed them all on the glass in those Finals, as well.

Incidently, his career high Finals game was 45 points (to go along with 27 rebounds.) And, yes, it came in a "must-win" game.

[riseagainst]

Not much of a dropoff by either there. In any case, they were discussing playoff careers and the dropoff from regular season to post season scoring.

MJ averaged 30.1 ppg in the regular season and 33.6 in the playoffs
Wilt averaged 30.1 ppg in the regular season and 22 in the playoffs.

Something about that stands out.

:bowdown: :bowdown:

das why he's the GOAT!

[Deuce Bigalow]

:bowdown: :bowdown:

das why he's the GOAT!
No Wilt Chamberlain is the greatest player of alltime. No player has ever dominated his peers like mid 60s Wilt. Where are Jordan's 30 point 27 rebound games? Where are his 60/30 games? The Wilt bashers try to say that Wilt is a choker, but what about Wilt's 45/27 performance in a do or die Finals game? There is Wilt "the choker" for you. And of course these Wilt bashers don't even mention that Wilt outscored, outrebounded, and outshot Bill Russell in all their H2H series.

[Mr Feeny]

Of course he only played in one Finals in his "scoring" seasons, and was "held" to a 29.2 ppg, 27.8 rpg, .517 FG% series by Russell (in a post-season that shot .420.)

Oh, and he outshot all six of his opposing centers (all of them in the HOF BTW) from the floor, and usually by huge margins; and of course, he just crushed them all on the glass in those Finals, as well.

Incidently, his career high Finals game was 45 points (to go along with 27 rebounds.) And, yes, it came in a "must-win" game.

Yeah but Lazeruss, you can't keep going to that defensive. Choosing to describe some seasons as 'scoring' seasons while claiming that Wilt CHOSE not to be a scorer the others. In 1969 he sure was a scorer yet still averaged 13 ppg in the finals if im not mistaken.

As a whole, 22 ppg is simple not impressive anu way you slice it. As far as outshooting opposing centers, thats not out focus here. We are merely looking at Wilt's postseason struggles relatice to his regular season domination.

[Mr Feeny]

No Wilt Chamberlain is the greatest player of alltime. No player has ever dominated his peers like mid 60s Wilt. Where are Jordan's 30 point 27 rebound games? Where are his 60/30 games? The Wilt bashers try to say that Wilt is a choker, but what about Wilt's 45/27 performance in a do or die Finals game? There is Wilt "the choker" for you. And of course these Wilt bashers don't even mention that Wilt outscored, outrebounded, and outshot Bill Russell in all their H2H series.

Again, you're going down the same path as Lazeruss. 45 points in a finals fame is terrific and deserves ample credit. We are talking about Wilt's finals career as a whole. There weew several other game 7's in which Phili lost by a few points and Wilt missed double digit free throws. Nobody is bringing those up because focusing on a sinfle game whether Wilt dominated in oe struggled in, isnt our focus here.
For a wreckinf machine who scored at will in the regular season, he just wasnt able to replicate that in the playoffs for some reason. ain the finals, his scoring dropped to 18ppg. Dwyane Wade averaged more than that during the kast three finals for Miami and yet his impact is denigrated by Lebron fans. Lets put that in perspective. Wilt wasnt able to contrivure as much as this shell of his former self Wade. That's mindboggling.

[Angel Face]

Lebron taking notes from the legends. :applause:

[LAZERUSS]

Again, you're going down the same path as Lazeruss. 45 points in a finals fame is terrific and deserves ample credit. We are talking about Wilt's finals career as a whole. There weew several other game 7's in which Phili lost by a few points and Wilt missed double digit free throws. Nobody is bringing those up because focusing on a sinfle game whether Wilt dominated in oe struggled in, isnt our focus here.
For a wreckinf machine who scored at will in the regular season, he just wasnt able to replicate that in the playoffs for some reason. ain the finals, his scoring dropped to 18ppg. Dwyane Wade averaged more than that during the kast three finals for Miami and yet his impact is denigrated by Lebron fans. Lets put that in perspective. Wilt wasnt able to contrivure as much as this shell of his former self Wade. That's mindboggling.

Again....(Thanks to Psileas)


OK, time to blow up the "choker" myth a bit more analytically: Wilt's regular season (RS) vs playoff (PO) scoring season by season vs the same opponent:

1960:
vs Nationals-- RS: 38, PO: 38.7 (adv. PO)
vs Celtics-- RS: 39.9, PO: 30.5 (adv. RS)

1961:
vs Nationals-- RS: 39.9, PO: 37 (adv. RS)

1962:
vs Nationals-- RS: 48, PO: 37 (adv. RS)
vs Celtics-- RS: 41.7 (incl. games that Russell missed), PO: 33.6 (adv. RS)

1964:
vs Hawks-- RS: 32.8, PO: 38.6 (adv. PO)
vs Celtics-- RS: 29.1, PO: 29.2 (adv. PO)

1965 (playing for Sixers):
vs Royals-- RS: 36.8, PO: 27.8 (adv. RS)
vs Celtics-- RS: 25.0, PO: 30.1 (adv. PO)

1966:
vs Celtics-- RS: 28.3, PO: 28 (adv. RS)

1967:
vs Royals-- RS: 28.6, PO: 28 (adv. RS)
vs Celtics-- RS: 20.3, PO: 21.6 (adv. PO)
vs Warriors-- RS: 20.7, PO: 17.7 (adv. RS)

1968:
vs Knicks-- RS: 22.6, PO: 25.5 (adv. PO)
vs Celtics-- RS: 17.1, PO: 22.1 (adv. PO)

1969:
vs Warriors-- RS: 12.6, PO: 12.0 (adv. RS)
vs Hawks-- RS: 17.9, PO: 19.2 (adv. PO)
vs Celtics-- RS: 16.3, PO: 11.7 (adv. RS)

1970:
Too small RS samples

1971:
vs Bulls-- RS: 21.2, PO: 15.7 (adv. RS)
vs Bucks-- RS: 23.2, PO: 22 (adv. RS)

1972:
vs Bulls-- RS: 8.8, PO: 14.5 (adv. PO)
vs Bucks-- RS: 13.0, PO: 10.8 (adv. RS)
vs Knicks-- RS: 16.8, PO: 19.4 (adv. PO)

1973:
vs Bulls-- RS: 11.5, PO: 12 (adv. PO)
vs Warriors-- RS: 5.7, PO: 7 (adv. PO)
vs Knicks-- RS: 9.3, PO: 11.6 (adv. PO)

RS vs PO: 13-13

Falls by 5+ ppg: 5
Raises by 5+ ppg: 4

Seems pretty even to me. Choker? I don't think so.



Wilt faced RUSSELL and the Celtics EIGHT times in the post-season.

Let's compare MJ and Shaq's numbers against their biggest playoff rivals shall we?

MJ vs the Pistons:

87-88: Regular season against NBA. 35.0 ppg on .535 FG%
Against Detroit: 27.4 ppg on .491 FG%

88-89: Regular season. 32.5 ppg on .538 FG%
Against Detroit: 29.7 ppg on .460 FG%

89-90: Regular season. 33.6 ppg on .526 FG%
Against Detroit: 32.1 ppg on .467 FG%

90-91: Regular season. 31.5 ppg on .539 FG%
Against Detroit: 29.8 ppg on .535 FG%


Shaq vs. San Antonio:

98-99: Regular season. 26.3 ppg on .576 FG%
Against the Spurs: 23.8 ppg on .493 FG%

00-01: Regular season. 28.7 ppg on .572 FG%
Against the Spurs: 27.0 ppg on .541 FG%

01-02: Regular season. 27.2 ppg on .579 FG%
Against the Spurs: 21.4 ppg on .447 FG%

02-03: Regular season. 27.5 ppg on .574 FG%
Against the Spurs: 25.3 ppg on .559 FG%

03-04: Regular season. 21.5 ppg on .584 FG%
Against the Spurs. 22.5 ppg on .635 FG%

I see MUCH of the same "decline" from MJ and Shaq.

BTW, Chamberlain faced a HOF starting center in 105 of his 160 post-season games, and a multiple all-star in another 26.So he was either facing a very good, up to an all-time great, in 131 of his 160 post-season games. Included were 12 games against Reed (and another 6 in which Reed was a PF); 10 against Bellamy; 11 against a peak Kareem; 16 against Thurmond (just ask KAJ about him); and then... 49 games against Russell.

[Psileas]

As shocking as that is, he is even worse in the finals. An 18 ppg scorer. The guy was the definition of a choker.

22 ppg for a playoff career is just pathetic for someone who is supposedly one of the best scorers in the game. :roll:


Wilt haters, the definition of tl;dr :oldlol:


1960:
vs Nationals-- RS: 38, PO: 38.7 (adv. PO)
vs Celtics-- RS: 39.9, PO: 30.5 (adv. RS)

1961:
vs Nationals-- RS: 39.9, PO: 37 (adv. RS)

1962:
vs Nationals-- RS: 48, PO: 37 (adv. RS)
vs Celtics-- RS: 41.7 (incl. games that Russell missed), PO: 33.6 (adv. RS)

1964:
vs Hawks-- RS: 32.8, PO: 38.6 (adv. PO)
vs Celtics-- RS: 29.1, PO: 29.2 (adv. PO)

1965 (playing for Sixers):
vs Royals-- RS: 36.8, PO: 27.8 (adv. RS)
vs Celtics-- RS: 25.0, PO: 30.1 (adv. PO)

1966:
vs Celtics-- RS: 28.3, PO: 28 (adv. RS)

1967:
vs Royals-- RS: 28.6, PO: 28 (adv. RS)
vs Celtics-- RS: 20.3, PO: 21.6 (adv. PO)
vs Warriors-- RS: 20.7, PO: 17.7 (adv. RS)

1968:
vs Knicks-- RS: 22.6, PO: 25.5 (adv. PO)
vs Celtics-- RS: 17.1, PO: 22.1 (adv. PO)

1969:
vs Warriors-- RS: 12.6, PO: 12.0 (adv. RS)
vs Hawks-- RS: 17.9, PO: 19.2 (adv. PO)
vs Celtics-- RS: 16.3, PO: 11.7 (adv. RS)

1970:
Too small RS samples

1971:
vs Bulls-- RS: 21.2, PO: 15.7 (adv. RS)
vs Bucks-- RS: 23.2, PO: 22 (adv. RS)

1972:
vs Bulls-- RS: 8.8, PO: 14.5 (adv. PO)
vs Bucks-- RS: 13.0, PO: 10.8 (adv. RS)
vs Knicks-- RS: 16.8, PO: 19.4 (adv. PO)

1973:
vs Bulls-- RS: 11.5, PO: 12 (adv. PO)
vs Warriors-- RS: 5.7, PO: 7 (adv. PO)
vs Knicks-- RS: 9.3, PO: 11.6 (adv. PO)

RS vs PO: 13-13

Falls by 5+ ppg: 5
Raises by 5+ ppg: 4

Seems pretty even to me. Choker? I don't think so.

[aj1987]

No Wilt Chamberlain is the greatest player of alltime. No player has ever dominated his peers like mid 60s Wilt. Where are Jordan's 30 point 27 rebound games? Where are his 60/30 games? The Wilt bashers try to say that Wilt is a choker, but what about Wilt's 45/27 performance in a do or die Finals game? There is Wilt "the choker" for you. And of course these Wilt bashers don't even mention that Wilt outscored, outrebounded, and outshot Bill Russell in all their H2H series.
Where are Wilt's 6 rings? The GOAT and GOAT scorer averaged 23 PPG in the playoffs? Wilt is not even the GOAT center, let alone player.

[Dr.J4ever]

Where are Wilt's 6 rings? The GOAT and GOAT scorer averaged 23 PPG in the playoffs? Wilt is not even the GOAT center, let alone player.
Good point. While Wilt did indeed dominate the reg.season, he didn't do as well in the Playoffs. You are right. 2 rings does not equal 6 rings . To me, KAJ was the greatest ever if you combine everything you want from a center. Plus, the guy won a half dozen chips with MVPs to boot. GOAT.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Where are Wilt's 6 rings? The GOAT and GOAT scorer averaged 23 PPG in the playoffs? Wilt is not even the GOAT center, let alone player.
Rings are TEAM accomplishments. Wilt Chamberlain has been to 12 Conference Finals, 6 NBA Finals, and was an eyelash away from 4-5 more rings. Wilt in his scoring prime averaged 32.6 PPG and had 4 50-point games in the playoffs. Where are Jordan's games where he outrebounded his opposition by 10+ RPG and held alltime great centers to 40% shooting?

[dankok8]

I wouldn't go as far as to call Wilt a complete choker in the playoffs but he had a lot of underwhelming postseasons and big games. In his prime you can say he maintained or slightly elevated his game in '64, '65, and '67. In all other years his mostly level went down in the playoffs.

And while Psileas's post shows 13-13 even situation do note that in several years he declined 7-10 ppg from the regular season to the postseason while the reverse never happened. So his performance did definitely go down even by that analysis. Not to mention his FG% and FT% often plummeted as well.

Also there are mistakes I found... Wilt averaged 25.4 ppg against Russell in the 64-65 regular season not 25.0 ppg. And also 39.7 ppg in the 61-62 regular season, not 41.7 ppg. It seems he didn't include games Russell missed?

[aj1987]

Rings are TEAM accomplishments. Wilt Chamberlain has been to 12 Conference Finals, 6 NBA Finals, and was an eyelash away from 4-5 more rings. Wilt in his scoring prime averaged 32.6 PPG and had 4 50-point games in the playoffs. Where are Jordan's games where he outrebounded his opposition by 10+ RPG and held alltime great centers to 40% shooting?
Are you stupid? MJ is a 6'5" SG. What about Wilt's FT's in close games? Games that were decided by 5 or fewer points, in which Wilt missed ~10 FT's?

lol

[dankok8]

And the whole "within an eyelash of X more rings" is a bogus argument. Virtually all pantheon players were within an eyelash of many more rings and suffered several close losses in the playoffs. Just off the top of my mind:

MJ in '89 and '90
Kareem in '72, '74, and '84
Shaq in '05
Duncan in '04, '06, and '13

etc.

Players have to be judged by what they achieved not what they COULD HAVE achieved in some hypothetical situation. Bottom line is Wilt also RARELY made plays to help his team win those close games ('65 Game 7 being the sole exception...).

[Deuce Bigalow]

Are you stupid? MJ is a 6'5" SG. What about Wilt's FT's in close games? Games that were decided by 5 or fewer points, in which Wilt missed ~10 FT's?

lol
Wilt shot the highest FG% in games 7s in NBA history. Where are Jordan's 9 FG% titles?

[houston]

And the whole "within an eyelash of X more rings" is a bogus argument. Virtually all pantheon players were within an eyelash of many more rings and suffered several close losses in the playoffs. Just off the top of my mind:

MJ in '89 and '90
Kareem in '72, '74, and '84
Shaq in '05
Duncan in '04, '06, and '13

etc.

Players have to be judged by what they achieved not what they COULD HAVE achieved in some hypothetical situation. Bottom line is Wilt also RARELY made plays to help his team win those close games ('65 Game 7 being the sole exception...).


I feel that

[r0drig0lac]

Because of him...

http://gospelspectrum.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/bill-russell.jpg
1b. :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[AbeVigodaLive]

If your team is down 3 - 2 in the NBA Finals... you want Wilt Chamberlain on your team. He'll likely score 40 in an easy win.

If your team is tied 3 - 3 and you need your best player to play up to his standards or even relatively close to how he dominated in Game 6.... ummm... errr... ummmm... you might want to look elsewhere.

[Dr.J4ever]

Stats are highly overrated here in ISH.. The point of the whole thing is to win the game. The stats you produce are simply a means to an end---winning, and not an end in itself..This is why Bill Russel fans will always feel Russel was the better of the two players.

Stats are often a by product of a team's philosophy, structure, etc.. Look at Kevin D with the Thunder recently.. He's been scoring like 10 more PPG a game because of Westb absence.. Teammates and coaches heavily influence your stats and there are many more examples of this. PPG is not some unchangeable number that stands for eternity. Players who KNOW HOW to play within a winning system while producing less stats have to be given more credit here in ISH.. Not likely to happen as we are enamored with individuals, and not the team.

[Pointguard]

Unless we have someone here who seen the dynamics in the earlier part of the 60's we can't say for sure. It could be the kitchen sink syndrome or everybody crowding that side of the floor, or the game being called differently in the playoffs but we don't know. Coaching at that time, outside of Aurabach, wasn't very resourceful. Adjustments like reposting/cutting/knocking down the 18 footer seemingly weren't working (horrific shooting percentage of teammates). The team has to work out an over-stacking of the floor or too hard doubling or tripling. The team has to be very disciplined in handling that as we do know Wilt had superb judgement on the court.

Does anybody know if the pace slowed during the playoffs? The assisted shots decreased? More jumpshots were taken? Or any other indications that the style of play reflected a strong response to post play.

[mr.big35]

Wilt is the ultimate stat paddler

[CavaliersFTW]

Unless we have someone here who seen the dynamics in the earlier part of the 60's we can't say for sure. It could be the kitchen sink syndrome or everybody crowding that side of the floor, or the game being called differently in the playoffs but we don't know. Coaching at that time, outside of Aurabach, wasn't very resourceful. Adjustments like reposting/cutting/knocking down the 18 footer seemingly weren't working (horrific shooting percentage of teammates). The team has to work out an over-stacking of the floor or too hard doubling or tripling. The team has to be very disciplined in handling that as we do know Wilt had superb judgement on the court.

Does anybody know if the pace slowed during the playoffs? The assisted shots decreased? More jumpshots were taken? Or any other indications that the style of play reflected a strong response to post play.
My hunch is pressing defenses against his backcourts were reducing Wilt's touches. The one achilles heel of all big men is that you don't bring the ball up the court, so when appropriate pressure is applied to the backcourt it can not only effect the guards play but also the big mans. Press defense is exhausting but in the playoffs maybe the opponents were more up for it, just speculating I'm not sure if it applies to this specific scenario or not, just one possible theory.

[Psileas]

And while Psileas's post shows 13-13 even situation do note that in several years he declined 7-10 ppg from the regular season to the postseason while the reverse never happened. So his performance did definitely go down even by that analysis. Not to mention his FG% and FT% often plummeted as well.

I guess you missed this part:


Falls by 5+ ppg: 5
Raises by 5+ ppg: 4

2 of the 5 big declines came in the 1962 playoffs, when his team played at a slower pace and they reverted to more team ball, although he was still by far their leading and more efficient scorer. Which is why, despite the massive 15 ppg decline, his PER only fell by 2 points, instead of a much more expected 8-10.
And a 3rd one came in the 1960 series vs the Celtics, when he played 2 of the 6 games with a banged hand, which greatly reduced his efficiency.

[aj1987]

Falls by 5+ ppg: 5
Raises by 5+ ppg: 4
So basically, he choked in over half of his playoff series. GOAT!! :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

MJ:

'85 - +1.1
'86 - +21
'87 - -1.4
'88 - +1.3
'89 - +2.4
'90 - +3.1
'91 - -0.4
'92 - +4.4
'93 - +2.5
'95 - +4.6
'96 - +0.3
'97 - +1.5
'98 - +3.7

[-23-]

Deuce trolling the hell out of Wilt fans :applause:

Only person who sees the irony in his post.

[-23-]

Again, you're going down the same path as Lazeruss. 45 points in a finals fame is terrific and deserves ample credit. We are talking about Wilt's finals career as a whole. There weew several other game 7's in which Phili lost by a few points and Wilt missed double digit free throws. Nobody is bringing those up because focusing on a sinfle game whether Wilt dominated in oe struggled in, isnt our focus here.
For a wreckinf machine who scored at will in the regular season, he just wasnt able to replicate that in the playoffs for some reason. ain the finals, his scoring dropped to 18ppg. Dwyane Wade averaged more than that during the kast three finals for Miami and yet his impact is denigrated by Lebron fans. Lets put that in perspective. Wilt wasnt able to contrivure as much as this shell of his former self Wade. That's mindboggling.

He's mocking Lazeruss lolololol:pimp:

[AbeVigodaLive]

Wilt is the ultimate stat paddler


Yep.

He admits to doing so in his autobiography, "Wilt." After winning the title in Philly, he deliberately tried to win the assists title the next season... even if it detracted from his and the team's overall play.

Typical Wilt move. He got that title. The team lost. And he blamed them for the loss... despite him putting his stat-padding glory above everything else all season.

[oarabbus]

Wilt is simply not as good as his stans say he is. We've all played basketball before. If someone is really that ****ing good, and said person is your >7' bigman (!), you are going to win.

Just look at Ewing. Was he good? Yes. Was he damn good? Yes. Was he the ****ing BEST (like Wilt stans say about Wilt)? No. Or he would have won.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Wilt is simply not as good as his stans say he is. We've all played basketball before. If someone is really that ****ing good, and said person is your >7' bigman (!), you are going to win.

Just look at Ewing. Was he good? Yes. Was he damn good? Yes. Was he the ****ing BEST (like Wilt stans say about Wilt)? No. Or he would have won.
Basketball is 5 ON 5 not 1 on 1.

Chamberlain in '65 led his 40-40 squad to a Game 7 vs the Boston Celtics which they lost by only ONE point. Here was Chamberlain taking garbage to within an eyelash away from beating the Boston Celtics.

[oarabbus]

Basketball is 5 ON 5 not 1 on 1.

Chamberlain in '65 led his 40-40 squad to a Game 7 vs the Boston Celtics which they lost by only ONE point. Here was Chamberlain taking garbage to within an eyelash away from beating the Boston Celtics.

:cheers:

I made that post with MJ in mind because he was just THAT good and made what needed to happen, happen (and yes I am aware of his teammates but he just had legendary game-ending moments). No excuses. But fair enough, bball is certainly 5 on 5. You're a good poster so I will take your word for it.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Basketball is 5 ON 5 not 1 on 1.

Chamberlain in '65 led his 40-40 squad to a Game 7 vs the Boston Celtics which they lost by only ONE point. Here was Chamberlain taking garbage to within an eyelash away from beating the Boston Celtics.


To be fair, Wilt was traded to Philadelphia that season.

And, Philadelphia only gave up three (2) role/rotation players in return. As was the case when Wilt was traded, his former team was willing to take less back in return just to unload The Big Dipper.

So, the 40 - 40 record is slightly misleading. That Philly team was much better at the end of the year with Wilt, Greer, Jackson, Walker et al.

[CavaliersFTW]

To be fair, Wilt was traded to Philadelphia that season.

And, Philadelphia only gave up three (2) role/rotation players in return. As was the case when Wilt was traded, his former team was willing to take less back in return just to unload The Big Dipper.

So, the 40 - 40 record is slightly misleading. That Philly team was much better at the end of the year with Wilt, Greer, Jackson, Walker et al.
Wilt was traded for 'less' because he was suffering from severe stomache and health problems from the start of the season. Checking in and out of hospitals it was revealed he'd had heart problems and a possible heart attack. Warriors assumed he was on borrowed time in the league and traded him quickly before word got out about his potentialy declining health. That turned out to be a mistake on their part, as Wilt lead the Sixers to a title over, you guessed it, the Warriors. Nice try pretending it was because Wilt wasn't any good or w/e nonsense you were trying to push though :oldlol:

[Psileas]

So basically, he choked in over half of his playoff series. GOAT!! :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

MJ:

'85 - +1.1
'86 - +21
'87 - -1.4
'88 - +1.3
'89 - +2.4
'90 - +3.1
'91 - -0.4
'92 - +4.4
'93 - +2.5
'95 - +4.6
'96 - +0.3
'97 - +1.5
'98 - +3.7

Yeah, genius, the list I posted definitely means he choked in half his playoff career...
:facepalm
But thanks for letting us know that MJ choked in 1991. And people call this the GOAT season, lol!

[Psileas]

Wilt is simply not as good as his stans say he is. We've all played basketball before. If someone is really that ****ing good, and said person is your >7' bigman (!), you are going to win.

Just look at Ewing. Was he good? Yes. Was he damn good? Yes. Was he the ****ing BEST (like Wilt stans say about Wilt)? No. Or he would have won.

Much like 70's Kareem and 80's Jordan, right? Not that ****ing good, since they won combined 1 title in 15 seasons.

[LAZERUSS]

And the whole "within an eyelash of X more rings" is a bogus argument. Virtually all pantheon players were within an eyelash of many more rings and suffered several close losses in the playoffs. Just off the top of my mind:

MJ in '89 and '90
Kareem in '72, '74, and '84
Shaq in '05
Duncan in '04, '06, and '13

etc.

Players have to be judged by what they achieved not what they COULD HAVE achieved in some hypothetical situation. Bottom line is Wilt also RARELY made plays to help his team win those close games ('65 Game 7 being the sole exception...).

Another unresearched post. Of course, coming from a Kareem fan, I would have expected it, since he was arguably the biggest underachiever among the GOAT candidates, of all-time.

Let's start with Wilt. His team's lost to the eventual champion, TEN times in his post-season career. FIVE in game SEVEN's, and in FOUR of those game seven's, by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points, and in series', and key games in which his fellow teammates PUKED all over the floor. NINE points away from being the champion, FOUR times.

Now, how about your "close calls"...

MJ in '89. His team lost a game SIX by nine points, to the eventual champion Pistons. NOT close.

MJ in '90. His team lost a game seven, by 19 points to the eventual champion. NOT close.


KAJ in '72. Lost a game SIX on his home floor, to the eventual champion Lakers (led by Chamberlain's dominance in that game BTW.) NOT close.

KAJ in '74. True, lost a game seven, to the under-dog Celtics, on his home floor, in a game in which Cowens outplayed him in every facet of the game, and by...15 points. NOT close.

KAJ in '84. Lost a game seven, to a Celtic team that they should have SWEPT, in a series in which Kareem shot .481 from the floor, by NINE points. NOT close.


Shaq in '05. Lost a game seven, to the Pistons, by six points. Of course, Detroit was BEATEN by San Antonio in seven games. NOT close.

Only Duncan would have anything close to a case. Still, looking at the final margins in his last game of those series,


Duncan in '04. Lost a game SIX, by 12 points, to a Laker team that was ROUTED by the Pistons in the Finals. Not even remotely close.

Duncan in '06. Lost a game seven, by eight points (yes, in OT though), to the eventual champion Mavs. I could give you this one, but then you would have to give Wilt at least '70, when his team was jobbed by the officiating in game five (as reported by a NEW YORK TIMES writer Leonard Koppett.)

Duncan in '13. Should have won in six. Lost a game seven by seven points.


Still, NONE of them were decided by four points, or less, were they. As for KAJ, he was losing to lower seeds, year-after-year, in the 70's, and being outplayed in several series (even some wins.)

As for Wilt's TEAMMATES in those game seven losses...

In '62, (two point loss), I don't have the numbers, BUT, his teammates collectively shot .354 in the entire post-season that year. That he could single-handedly carry a pathetic and aging team as far as he did was just incredible.

In '65 (one point loss), again, I don't have his teammates numbers, but statistically they were badly outscored in that series. Meanwhile, Chamberlain took what had been a roster that had gone 34-46 the year before, without him, to that game seven, one point loss, against a HOF-laden Celtic team that had gone 62-18, with a 30-32 performance, on 80% shooting from the floor, in a series in which was probably the most one-sided beatdown ever administered by one GOAT on another GOAT candidate.

In '68. (four point loss). His injury-riddled teammates shot 33% from the field (and he was playing injured, with injuries that would have had Reed and KAJ watching from home.)

In '69 (two point loss), while Wilt completely outplayed Russell in that game, hios incompetent coach benched Chamberlain in the last five minutes. Oh, and Russell's teammates collectively outshot Wilt's from the field by...get this... a .477 to .360 margin in that game seven.


Chamberlain was a total of NINE points away from FOUR rings. No other all-time great can make that claim. In the examples you gave, they were seldom nine points away in even ONE game.

[LAZERUSS]

1960:
vs Nationals-- RS: 38, PO: 38.7 (adv. PO)
vs Celtics-- RS: 39.9, PO: 30.5 (adv. RS)

1961:
vs Nationals-- RS: 39.9, PO: 37 (adv. RS)

1962:
vs Nationals-- RS: 48, PO: 37 (adv. RS)
vs Celtics-- RS: 41.7 (incl. games that Russell missed), PO: 33.6 (adv. RS)

1964:
vs Hawks-- RS: 32.8, PO: 38.6 (adv. PO)
vs Celtics-- RS: 29.1, PO: 29.2 (adv. PO)

1965 (playing for Sixers):
vs Royals-- RS: 36.8, PO: 27.8 (adv. RS)
vs Celtics-- RS: 25.0, PO: 30.1 (adv. PO)

1966:
vs Celtics-- RS: 28.3, PO: 28 (adv. RS)

1967:
vs Royals-- RS: 28.6, PO: 28 (adv. RS)
vs Celtics-- RS: 20.3, PO: 21.6 (adv. PO)
vs Warriors-- RS: 20.7, PO: 17.7 (adv. RS)

1968:
vs Knicks-- RS: 22.6, PO: 25.5 (adv. PO)
vs Celtics-- RS: 17.1, PO: 22.1 (adv. PO)

1969:
vs Warriors-- RS: 12.6, PO: 12.0 (adv. RS)
vs Hawks-- RS: 17.9, PO: 19.2 (adv. PO)
vs Celtics-- RS: 16.3, PO: 11.7 (adv. RS)

1970:
Too small RS samples

1971:
vs Bulls-- RS: 21.2, PO: 15.7 (adv. RS)
vs Bucks-- RS: 23.2, PO: 22 (adv. RS)

1972:
vs Bulls-- RS: 8.8, PO: 14.5 (adv. PO)
vs Bucks-- RS: 13.0, PO: 10.8 (adv. RS)
vs Knicks-- RS: 16.8, PO: 19.4 (adv. PO)

1973:
vs Bulls-- RS: 11.5, PO: 12 (adv. PO)
vs Warriors-- RS: 5.7, PO: 7 (adv. PO)
vs Knicks-- RS: 9.3, PO: 11.6 (adv. PO)

RS vs PO: 13-13

Falls by 5+ ppg: 5
Raises by 5+ ppg: 4

Seems pretty even to me. Choker? I don't think so.

The Wilt DOUBLE-STANDARD. In his scoring prime, Wilt averaged 33 ppg, 27 rpg, shot WAY over the league in FG% and TS% (.505 in league's that shot an eFG% of about .425 in that span), handed out 4 apg, and probably blocked 8+ shots per game, ...all while holding his opposing centers to probably a sub 40% FG%. In 52 playoff games, with 30 of them against Russell.

Even into his greatest season, 66-67, and covering 67 playoff games, he AVERAGED 30 ppg, 27 rpg, 5 apg, shot .515 (in leagues that were at .427 in that span), with probably eight blocks per game, all while holding his mostly HOF counterparts to probably considerably less than 40% shooting from the field.

Maybe the Wilt-bashers can give us an example of another all-time GOAT player who put up a 30-27-5 .515 8 SERIES, much less over the course of 67 games. Hell, they would be hard-pressed to give us an example of a SINGLE GAME in which an all-time GOAT did that.

FOUR 50+ point games, THREE of which were in "must-win's". Of course, where were KAJ's, Hakeem's, Russell's, Shaq's, Duncan's, and Moses' 50 point playoff games? And those four 50 point games, came in his scoring prime, in his first 52 playoff games (actually, his first 36.)

FOUR entire post-seasons of 33.2, 34.7, 35.0, and 37.0 ppg. FOUR playoff series of 37 ppg, 37 ppg, 39 ppg, and 39 ppg, and in his scoring prime, which covered four of his six playoff seasons in that span.

Yep. Most of the all-time GOAT players, aside from MJ, PALED in comparsion to what a prime scoring Chamberlain was putting up. But, since Wilt didn't score 50 ppg in the post-season, well, he was a choker.

ONLY Chamberlain was held to that standard.

[LAZERUSS]

Yep.

He admits to doing so in his autobiography, "Wilt." After winning the title in Philly, he deliberately tried to win the assists title the next season... even if it detracted from his and the team's overall play.

Typical Wilt move. He got that title. The team lost. And he blamed them for the loss... despite him putting his stat-padding glory above everything else all season.

Yep...Chamberlain sure hurt his team in that 67-68 season, when he "selfishly" went for the assist title. His Sixer team could only go 62-20, which was only eight games better than the next best team.

And who would have known at the time, that because of his "selfish" play, that his team would be DECIMATED by injuries in the EDF's (including Wilt, himself...and when as Russell said, "a lessor man would not have played"), and lose a game seven by four points.

Typical Wilt.

[riseagainst]

he's a choker.

[LAZERUSS]

Rings are TEAM accomplishments. Wilt Chamberlain has been to 12 Conference Finals, 6 NBA Finals, and was an eyelash away from 4-5 more rings. Wilt in his scoring prime averaged 32.6 PPG and had 4 50-point games in the playoffs. Where are Jordan's games where he outrebounded his opposition by 10+ RPG and held alltime great centers to 40% shooting?

Either Duece has finally come to his senses, or someone hacked his account.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Wilt was traded for 'less' because he was suffering from severe stomache and health problems from the start of the season. Checking in and out of hospitals it was revealed he'd had heart problems and a possible heart attack. Warriors assumed he was on borrowed time in the league and traded him quickly before word got out about his potentialy declining health. That turned out to be a mistake on their part, as Wilt lead the Sixers to a title over, you guessed it, the Warriors. Nice try pretending it was because Wilt wasn't any good or w/e nonsense you were trying to push though :oldlol:


That sounds interesting*. I'd love to read a link about it.

Because everything I read indicates the Warriors were losing money. And, the deal also included a lump sum of cash and a player who didn't even report... saving the club cash.

Remember, it wasn't the only time the league's most dominant player was traded for bit parts. Dr. Jack Ramsay traded Wilt too.



* I hope it's not quotes from Wilt himself. The list of lies the man told is quite lengthy... which kind of ruins his credibility about most things. He played in almost every game that season.

[Bush4Ever]

One question:

How do his scoring performances look WITHIN year, as opposed to between years?

If you look between years, there are a number of statistical and logical problems. Especially if you just take the average.

[dankok8]

Another unresearched post. Of course, coming from a Kareem fan, I would have expected it, since he was arguably the biggest underachiever among the GOAT candidates, of all-time.

Let's start with Wilt. His team's lost to the eventual champion, TEN times in his post-season career. FIVE in game SEVEN's, and in FOUR of those game seven's, by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points, and in series', and key games in which his fellow teammates PUKED all over the floor. NINE points away from being the champion, FOUR times.

Now, how about your "close calls"...

MJ in '89. His team lost a game SIX by nine points, to the eventual champion Pistons. NOT close.

MJ in '90. His team lost a game seven, by 19 points to the eventual champion. NOT close.


KAJ in '72. Lost a game SIX on his home floor, to the eventual champion Lakers (led by Chamberlain's dominance in that game BTW.) NOT close.

KAJ in '74. True, lost a game seven, to the under-dog Celtics, on his home floor, in a game in which Cowens outplayed him in every facet of the game, and by...15 points. NOT close.

KAJ in '84. Lost a game seven, to a Celtic team that they should have SWEPT, in a series in which Kareem shot .481 from the floor, by NINE points. NOT close.


Shaq in '05. Lost a game seven, to the Pistons, by six points. Of course, Detroit was BEATEN by San Antonio in seven games. NOT close.

Only Duncan would have anything close to a case. Still, looking at the final margins in his last game of those series,


Duncan in '04. Lost a game SIX, by 12 points, to a Laker team that was ROUTED by the Pistons in the Finals. Not even remotely close.

Duncan in '06. Lost a game seven, by eight points (yes, in OT though), to the eventual champion Mavs. I could give you this one, but then you would have to give Wilt at least '70, when his team was jobbed by the officiating in game five (as reported by a NEW YORK TIMES writer Leonard Koppett.)

Duncan in '13. Should have won in six. Lost a game seven by seven points.


Still, NONE of them were decided by four points, or less, were they. As for KAJ, he was losing to lower seeds, year-after-year, in the 70's, and being outplayed in several series (even some wins.)

As for Wilt's TEAMMATES in those game seven losses...

In '62, (two point loss), I don't have the numbers, BUT, his teammates collectively shot .354 in the entire post-season that year. That he could single-handedly carry a pathetic and aging team as far as he did was just incredible.

In '65 (one point loss), again, I don't have his teammates numbers, but statistically they were badly outscored in that series. Meanwhile, Chamberlain took what had been a roster that had gone 34-46 the year before, without him, to that game seven, one point loss, against a HOF-laden Celtic team that had gone 62-18, with a 30-32 performance, on 80% shooting from the floor, in a series in which was probably the most one-sided beatdown ever administered by one GOAT on another GOAT candidate.

In '68. (four point loss). His injury-riddled teammates shot 33% from the field (and he was playing injured, with injuries that would have had Reed and KAJ watching from home.)

In '69 (two point loss), while Wilt completely outplayed Russell in that game, hios incompetent coach benched Chamberlain in the last five minutes. Oh, and Russell's teammates collectively outshot Wilt's from the field by...get this... a .477 to .360 margin in that game seven.


Chamberlain was a total of NINE points away from FOUR rings. No other all-time great can make that claim. In the examples you gave, they were seldom nine points away in even ONE game.

Oh I've done my research... Consider the context too not just the final score.

In '90 ECF Game 7 to take a few words out of your vocab, MJ's teammates puked all over themselves... They shot get this 15/63 or 23.8%... Yes that is NOT a typo. Jordan's teammates shot 23.8%! Pippen had that migraine game and Grant was downright terrible. I've seen that game.

In '72 Kareem's Bucks lost 3 games to the Lakers by 1, 3, and 4 points respectively playing with serious injuries to Oscar, McGlocklin, and Jones. And it took a career high 40+ game from role player Jim McMillian to beat them in Game 2 by 1 point! I'd say it's pretty close.

In '74 Kareem's Bucks lost in 7 games with 2 starters injured... Oscar (hobbled) and Lucious Allen (did not even play).

In '84 Finals Kareem had just one bad game (the infamous Heat Game in the Garden - Game 5) but he totally killed it in the other games. Problem is Magic (and Worthy) choked away both Game 2 and Game 4 and ended up losing both in OT. Ever heard of Tragic Magic?

In '05 Heat were up 3-2 on the Pistons and looked in control but then Wade got injured. Dwyane completely MISSED Game 6 and was a total shell in Game 7.

In '04, Horry hit a back-breaking shot to win Game 5 for LA. Without that Spurs are up 3-2 with home court.

For Duncan '06 and '13 are no-brainers.

Wilt of course had his share of close losses. My point is almost every great did. It's kind of a weak argument. And honestly in '62 and '68 I'm far from sure Philly would have won the title even if they got past Boston. LA was no joke in those years...