Durant on Kobe "He's probably the best ever. You can't say that he's lost a step"

[BlackMambaLivin]

"I don't understand why people say he's lost a step," Durant said outside the Thunder locker room before Game 5 on Tuesday night. "He's the greatest player in the game. There are only a couple guys who can turn it on and off like him and get 15 in a row and also get 10 assists and get their guys involved. He's probably the best ever. You can't say that he's lost a step. He's the same Kobe from a while back, maybe he's not dunking on a lot of guys like he was back in '01, '02 but he's still the same Kobe."

http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/columns/story?id=5142029
:pimp:

[Andrei89]

Kevin just points at the fans who say Kobe is hassled by injuries.

[ShaqAttack3234]

:roll: Kobe played with a guy for more than half his career who was better than he's ever been. Hell, Kobe isn't even one of the 2 best players Phil Jackson has coached.

[zizozain]

In before ashbelly PB

[Allstar24]

:roll: Kobe played with a guy for more than half his career who was better than he's ever been. Hell, Kobe isn't even one of the 2 best players Phil Jackson has coached.
Kobe's not the best ever, Durant probably didn't mean for it to come out like that...but Kobe will go down as a greater player than Shaq when it's all said and done. Shaq's been irrelevant since 2006.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Kobe's not the best ever, Durant probably didn't mean for it to come out like that...but Kobe will go down as a greater player than Shaq when it's all said and done. Shaq's been irrelevant since 2006.

:roll: Shaq has 2 more finals MVPs and as many rings, a far more dominant prime and unlike Kobe, Shaq was an elite player from the moment he entered the league. Kobe wasn't a legit all-star until his 4th season and not truly elite until his 5th season and his body is already wearing down at 31.

[King Lebron LBJ]

Shaq will go down as better than Kobe all-time, chances are Shaq wins at least one more ring if not 2. It remains to be seen how many more Kobe will win. Guess i depends on this year and if Buss gets a new productive point guard in while keeping Phil Jackson.

Although if Kobe does win this year, that will be numer 5 while likely means Jackson stays and with their main core being around 30 and a 22 year old Bynum he will have a good chance at winning 6 or 7.

[Allstar24]

:roll: Shaq has 2 more finals MVPs and as many rings, a far more dominant prime and unlike Kobe, Shaq was an elite player from the moment he entered the league. Kobe wasn't a legit all-star until his 4th season and not truly elite until his 5th season and his body is already wearing down at 31.
Kobe's only 31, MJ won 3 championships after that age. His body is not "wearing down"...in case you don't have eyes, he's clearly injured. He'll be healthy after resting this summer and has the team around him to win multiple championships. His accomplishments, as a whole, are going to be greater than Shaq. Most coaches/players/analysts already have him in their top 10 all-time list. Shaq had the potential to be the GOAT but his lazy-ass threw it away. Now he is washed-up and bouncing around from team to team trying to win a 5th ring.

[yeaaaman]

Kobe's only 31, MJ won 3 championships after that age. His body is not "wearing down"...in case you don't have eyes, he's clearly injured. He'll be healthy after resting this summer and has the team around him to win multiple championships. His accomplishments, as a whole, are going to be greater than Shaq. Most coaches/players/analysts already have him in their top 10 all-time list. Shaq had the potential to be the GOAT but his lazy-ass threw it away. Now he is washed-up and bouncing around from team to team trying to win a 5th ring.

I don't think anyones doubting he isn't still great but I for sure feel his body is wearing down I don't see how you could think otherwise. That doesn't mean he can't keep playing at a high level or win more rings, but he is aging and this is natural.

[miller-time]

Shaq's been irrelevant since 2006.

yeah... except shaq was doing things for the 5 years before kobe entered the league.

ROY, scoring champion, a finals appearence in 94 and stopped jordans bulls in 95 (granted they were rebuilding).

the nba didn't begin in 1997 (or 99 when kobe got any sort of decent accolade). relevance in career terms has nothing to do with what players are doing right now.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Kobe's only 31, MJ won 3 championships after that age. His body is not "wearing down"...in case you don't have eyes, he's clearly injured. He'll be healthy after resting this summer and has the team around him to win multiple championships. His accomplishments, as a whole, are going to be greater than Shaq. Most coaches/players/analysts already have him in their top 10 all-time list. Shaq had the potential to be the GOAT but his lazy-ass threw it away. Now he is washed-up and bouncing around from team to team trying to win a 5th ring.

I've defended Kobe throughout the season, but he's had nagging injuries the last 3 seasons, he didn't play particularly well starting in January, he's in his 14th season, he now has arthritis in his shooting hand and he's had one of his worst playoff series vs OKC. He has the most talented cast in the league so it will hurt his legacy if they dissapoint in the playoffs. Kobe's horrendous 2004 finals performance, subpar 2008 finals performance and insignificant 2000 finals performance won't help either compared to Shaq who has 3 of the greatest finals series of all time.

It also won't help that Kobe was Shaq's second option on those teams, hell I've heard Kobe and Phil say this multiple times. Missing the playoffs in his prime also doesn't help neither does failing to make it out of the first round those years(not that he had a cast you should expect to).

[BlackWhiteGreen]

Someone probably asked Durant where Kobe ranked all time at having stupid f*cking fanboys

[macpierce]

damn peoples opinions whether or not theyre real really piss you girls off huh????:lol

[LA_Showtime]

You can't downplay Kobe's career by naming off the season he missed the playoffs and the following two years. Injuries and no talent had a lot to do with that 3 year period.

You can, however, blame Kobe for not shooting during the second half of the Phoenix game. That's inexcusable.

[Desperado]

Shaq who has 3 of the greatest finals series of all time.

Yeah...

Playing head-to head against Rik Smits, over the hill Dikembe Mutombo and Todd MacCulloch. :oldlol:

[ShaqAttack3234]

Right, so the defensive player of the year in 2001 was over the hill? Top 5 in blocks, an all-star and the leader in rebounding.... :roll: And it's funny to act like Shaq wasn't facing as many if not more double teams than anyone in history which makes the individual defender irrelevant. In 2000, Shaq was guarded by Dale Davis who was a good defensive player who averaged a double double and made the all-star team that season.

[cotdt]

As Durant talked to his teammates on the bus ride over to Staples Center, he told them there were two kinds of Kobe Bryant they were going to encounter Tuesday and both could be equally deadly in a do-or-die game as Game 5 was being billed.

"You never know what Kobe is going to do," Durant said. "He can turn it on and off so easily. You got to be ready for him to hit 10 in a row. A guy like that can get hot at any time. [In Game 4] I thought he was going to [go off], but he kind of deferred to his teammates and tried to get everybody involved. It's better when he tries to get everyone involved, that's Kobe Bryant. Once he gets 12 or 13 points in the first quarter that's the Black Mamba. We want him to be Kobe Bryant not Black Mamba. Our toughest job is stopping the Black Mamba."

[Allstar24]

I've defended Kobe throughout the season, but he's had nagging injuries the last 3 seasons, he didn't play particularly well starting in January, he's in his 14th season, he now has arthritis in his shooting hand and he's had one of his worst playoff series vs OKC. He has the most talented cast in the league so it will hurt his legacy if they dissapoint in the playoffs. Kobe's horrendous 2004 finals performance, subpar 2008 finals performance and insignificant 2000 finals performance won't help either compared to Shaq who has 3 of the greatest finals series of all time.

It also won't help that Kobe was Shaq's second option on those teams, hell I've heard Kobe and Phil say this multiple times. Missing the playoffs in his prime also doesn't help neither does failing to make it out of the first round those years(not that he had a cast you should expect to).
According to you, Kobe was "declining" back in 08...he won his first MVP that year. He was supposed to be declining in 09 and he won his first finals MVP. He was horrendous in the 04 finals but he also prevented the Lakers from getting swept. He was insignificant in the 2000 finals? He was the closer for the Lakers when Shaq got fouled out in game 4 of the finals. And if you want to pretend that Kobe didn't have a historic season in 06 and 07, that he didn't lead his team to the finals in 08, win the title and finals MVP in 09 and only point out the downside of his career, I'm going to assume you're not very objective. For the record, you brought up the Kobe vs Shaq thing in this thread.

[Younggrease]

Right, so the defensive player of the year in 2001 was over the hill? Top 5 in blocks, an all-star and the leader in rebounding.... :roll: And it's funny to act like Shaq wasn't facing as many if not more double teams than anyone in history which makes the individual defender irrelevant. In 2000, Shaq was guarded by Dale Davis who was a good defensive player who averaged a double double and made the all-star team that season.

Why do those Finals series count more than the other series...Indiana had no chance at a beating the Lakers, The Sixers also had no chance at beating the Lakers, the Nets had no chance at beating the Lakers.

Its not like the competition was raised, by the time the Finals came along the title was already decided. Sorry but these arent the series that attest to Shaq's greatness.

The series were he was meaured were against the Kings and the Spurs. The teams who actually had a chance at beating the prime Lakers.

[Kblaze8855]

It was almost 1989 when Durant was born. He only really remembers the primes of 2 players who are above Kobe all time and he was 10-11 when one of them peaked. And plenty of people are putting Kobe above Duncan(not that they should).

He was 3 when Bird and Magic were gone. Jordan peaked when he was like 2. He grew up on Kobe like most of the people here. Its not a shocking opinion from someone his age.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Why do those Finals series count more than the other series...Indiana had no chance at a beating the Lakers, The Sixers also had no chance at beating the Lakers, the Nets had no chance at beating the Lakers.

Its not like the competition was raised, by the time the Finals came along the title was already decided. Sorry but these arent the series that attest to Shaq's greatness.

The series were he was meaured were against the Kings and the Spurs. The teams who actually had a chance at beating the prime Lakers.

And Shaq crushed the Kings. The Spurs never had a chance vs the Lakers in 2001 and 2002.

In 2001, the Spurs were missing their 2nd leading scorer and only perimeter threat, Derek Anderson. An old David Robinson was the second option. The Lakers beat the Spurs by an average of over 22 points per game. The Sixers were easily the toughest team the Lakers faced in the playoffs, Shaq faced the DPOY and the finals are the biggest stage, period.

In 2002, The Spurs second option was an even older David Robinson who was injured and barely played in the playoffs. Tony Parker was a rookie and Manu Ginobili wasn't on the team yet. It's true that the Nets weren't much of a threat, but 36/12/4/3 on 60% shooting in the finals is pretty amazing regardless. And Shaq put up 30/14 vs Sacramento including a 41/17 game to extend the series to 6 and a 35/13/4 game 7.

As far as the Pacers in 2000? Indiana definitely had a chance. The Lakers weren't a proven championship team yet. In game 1, the Lakers pulled away in an 83-77 game thanks to a 13-2 run led by Shaq. As we saw in 2000, there was no guarantee the Lakers would pull out the game 1 win. If Shaq had an average game instead of a 43/19/4/3 game on 68% shooting then they almost surely would have lost that game because Kobe was the second best player with 14 points on 13 shots, and I believe he only had 1 field goal after the 3rd quarter. In game 2, Kobe left after 9 minutes and outside of Shaq and Kobe the Lakers weren't great during the 3peat. As it is, this ended in a 111-104 win, certainly not a blowout. If Shaq again didn't have a monster game(40/24/4/3) then the Pacers could have easily won this. The Lakers lost game 3 and if not for Kobe's overtime heroics and Shaq's 36/21 game in game 4, the Lakers easily could have lost that one. The Pacers blew them out in game 5 and game 6 ended in a 116-111 victory, so again, another very close game. Shaq also had 41/12/4. The Pacers if anything were more experienced and they lost 3 very winnable games, and in reality 4 winnable games.

I mean looking at the series, Shaq pretty much carried them to the win. Kobe only had a good game 4 and basically only played in 2 games, Rice was trash throughout the playoffs, AC Green was done by that point and while Harper was valuable, he was nothing more than a role player.

[ShaqAttack3234]

According to you, Kobe was "declining" back in 08...he won his first MVP that year. He was supposed to be declining in 09 and he won his first finals MVP. He was horrendous in the 04 finals but he also prevented the Lakers from getting swept. He was insignificant in the 2000 finals? He was the closer for the Lakers when Shaq got fouled out in game 4 of the finals. And if you want to pretend that Kobe didn't have a historic season in 06 and 07, that he didn't lead his team to the finals in 08, win the title and finals MVP in 09 and only point out the downside of his career, I'm going to assume you're not very objective. For the record, you brought up the Kobe vs Shaq thing in this thread.

First of all, I consider 2008 to be Kobe's best all around year, but on the other points? They wouldn't have been in a position to get swept had Kobe's shot selection been so horrendous and his ego been so huge at that point. Yeah, he had the big game 4, but other than that? He missed almost 2 games and averaged 16/4/4 on 37% shooting and like 19 shots per game. He had one good game in the series. Hell, he didn't even defend one of Indiana's 2 best perimeter players most of the time. They put him on Mark Jackson.

[dbugz]

Durant is trying to jinx Kobe.

Seriously, these thunder's players needs to stfu and let this series end first before saying anything awesome about their opponent. It's like saying, we're fcked up and we will going to lose this series because Kobe is so damn good.

[Younggrease]

And Shaq crushed the Kings. The Spurs never had a chance vs the Lakers in 2001 and 2002.

In 2001, the Spurs were missing their 2nd leading scorer and only perimeter threat, Derek Anderson. An old David Robinson was the second option. The Lakers beat the Spurs by an average of over 22 points per game. The Sixers were easily the toughest team the Lakers faced in the playoffs, Shaq faced the DPOY and the finals are the biggest stage, period.

In 2002, The Spurs second option was an even older David Robinson who was injured and barely played in the playoffs. Tony Parker was a rookie and Manu Ginobili wasn't on the team yet. It's true that the Nets weren't much of a threat, but 36/12/4/3 on 60% shooting in the finals is pretty amazing regardless. And Shaq put up 30/14 vs Sacramento including a 41/17 game to extend the series to 6 and a 35/13/4 game 7.

As far as the Pacers in 2000? Indiana definitely had a chance. The Lakers weren't a proven championship team yet. In game 1, the Lakers pulled away in an 83-77 game thanks to a 13-2 run led by Shaq. As we saw in 2000, there was no guarantee the Lakers would pull out the game 1 win. If Shaq had an average game instead of a 43/19/4/3 game on 68% shooting then they almost surely would have lost that game because Kobe was the second best player with 14 points on 13 shots, and I believe he only had 1 field goal after the 3rd quarter. In game 2, Kobe left after 9 minutes and outside of Shaq and Kobe the Lakers weren't great during the 3peat. As it is, this ended in a 111-104 win, certainly not a blowout. If Shaq again didn't have a monster game(40/24/4/3) then the Pacers could have easily won this. The Lakers lost game 3 and if not for Kobe's overtime heroics and Shaq's 36/21 game in game 4, the Lakers easily could have lost that one. The Pacers blew them out in game 5 and game 6 ended in a 116-111 victory, so again, another very close game. Shaq also had 41/12/4. The Pacers if anything were more experienced and they lost 3 very winnable games, and in reality 4 winnable games.

I mean looking at the series, Shaq pretty much carried them to the win. Kobe only had a good game 4 and basically only played in 2 games, Rice was trash throughout the playoffs, AC Green was done by that point and while Harper was valuable, he was nothing more than a role player.

why is it "amazing" if its in the Finals, even though the team is severely overmatched.

Its kinda what I expected of Shaq. I think the world of Shaq but a performance against Aaron Williams and Todd McCulluh isnt why I think he is great.

[MakeHistory78]

Kobe's not the best ever, Durant probably didn't mean for it to come out like that...but Kobe will go down as a greater player than Shaq when it's all said and done. Shaq's been irrelevant since 2006.
Kobe is nowhere to Shaq...Shaq at his prime was a beast and he had one of the three most dominant primes ever IMO with MJ and Wilt...

So Kobe is perhaps the second greatest Shooting guard ever but is nowhere to consider as the GOAT.He isn't even close.Shaq at least has a GOAT candidate prime.

Durant is 22 years old and his favorite player was Vince Carter...Are you kidding?He don't know anything about the History of the game.
Durant is an idiot if he thinks Kobe is the GOAT.
Kobe isn't even the best player in the league.LeBron James is by far the best in the game the last two years.Kobe isn't even close....

[ShaqAttack3234]

why is it "amazing" if its in the Finals, even though the team is severely overmatched.

Its kinda what I expected of Shaq. I think the world of Shaq but a performance against Aaron Williams and Todd McCulluh isnt why I think he is great.

Because in the history of the NBA, how many players have put up comparable numbers in the finals? And that wasn't the only time a team was severely overmatched. The Nets were a very good defensive team. Hell, I consider Kobe's 2001 series vs the Spurs amazing too. It doesn't make it an unimpressive series because the Spurs were overmatched that year or because the Spurs didn't have any perimeter defenders who you'd think would stand a chance(iirc, they had guys like Terry Porter and Steve Smith on their last legs). Bruce Bowen didn't join the team until the following season, but I still consider that one of the better series of the decade and Kobe's personal best.

[dawsey6]

Durant is trying to jinx Kobe.

Seriously, these thunder's players needs to stfu and let this series end first before saying anything awesome about their opponent. It's like saying, we're fcked up and we will going to lose this series because Kobe is so damn good.

Someone giving credit where they believe credit is due has nothing to do with how competitive they are. You never heard Michael talking about any of their opponent like they weren't great. Kobe doesn't do that either, and Lebron certainly doesn't. They all give credit where they feel credit is due when they talk to the press, but they still go out and play the game.

[NBASTATMAN]

Kobe's not the best ever, Durant probably didn't mean for it to come out like that...but Kobe will go down as a greater player than Shaq when it's all said and done. Shaq's been irrelevant since 2006.


Shaq's prime was better than KObe's but I would rate kobe a better player when HE finishes his playing days.. At this point I have to argue for Kobe over Shaq.. Like him or not Kobe comes to play at all times.. Shaq hasn't..

[NBASTATMAN]

As Durant talked to his teammates on the bus ride over to Staples Center, he told them there were two kinds of Kobe Bryant they were going to encounter Tuesday and both could be equally deadly in a do-or-die game as Game 5 was being billed.

"You never know what Kobe is going to do," Durant said. "He can turn it on and off so easily. You got to be ready for him to hit 10 in a row. A guy like that can get hot at any time. [In Game 4] I thought he was going to [go off], but he kind of deferred to his teammates and tried to get everybody involved. It's better when he tries to get everyone involved, that's Kobe Bryant. Once he gets 12 or 13 points in the first quarter that's the Black Mamba. We want him to be Kobe Bryant not Black Mamba. Our toughest job is stopping the Black Mamba."



I think KEVin is playing mind games... Kevin surely remembers the other night when he shut Kobe aka the greatest of all times down... I think DuraNT is just complimenting the hell out of Kobe but I am sure he wants to embarass him like he did the other night.. Smart

[Younggrease]

Because in the history of the NBA, how many players have put up comparable numbers in the finals? And that wasn't the only time a team was severely overmatched. The Nets were a very good defensive team. Hell, I consider Kobe's 2001 series vs the Spurs amazing too. It doesn't make it an unimpressive series because the Spurs were overmatched that year or because the Spurs didn't have any perimeter defenders who you'd think would stand a chance(iirc, they had guys like Terry Porter and Steve Smith on their last legs). Bruce Bowen didn't join the team until the following season, but I still consider that one of the better series of the decade and Kobe's personal best.

I dont understand why the putting the discussion in the box of the finals. IMO the discussion should be in comparison to every other series that is played and then you should factor un strength of team whatever. The Nets were garbarge and the games were never in doubt, it was a joke and not even worth watching. It was a foregone conclusin.

[crisoner]

Kid is entitled to his opinion.
Older cats argue with me all the time that Dr. J etc. was better then Jordan....I only seen dude on tape in his prime was a baby in the late 70's early 80's so how could I really know?

[OldSchoolBBall]

Yeah...

Playing head-to head against Rik Smits, over the hill Dikembe Mutombo and Todd MacCulloch. :oldlol:

And Kobe was playing against Jalen Rose, Aaron McKie, and Kerry Kittles, yet didn't dominate to nearly the same extent. Your point?

[Kingwillball]

Funny how all these laker Fans bringing up how OKC players saying Kobe is the Best when U all know Lebron is the Best..it is like they are trying to convince people on Ish to change there mind and Say Kobe is the Best..Problem is we watch the Games we Know Lebron is Better so Give it a Rest already.

[LA_Showtime]

If Durant was smart, he would say something like, "The Lakers are better when everyone involved. As great as Kobe is, it takes 5." That kind of comment could potentially cause a Kobe tornado, which would give the edge to the Thunder since he hasn't shot very well in April.

[icemanfan]

Kid is entitled to his opinion.
Older cats argue with me all the time that Dr. J etc. was better then Jordan....I only seen dude on tape in his prime was a baby in the late 70's early 80's so how could I really know?
whats up Cris! I made my first Spurs game in 1975. I think Ice is one of the all time best players in the game. Dr J wasn't better than Mike, Ice wasn't better than Mike. Kareem might be but no one ever gives him credit. I enjoyed watching Magic more than any other player ever. Even more than Ice and that is saying something. Magic is way under rated and is up there with Mike. IF Kobe had the love of the game that Magic did then I think he could pass Mike on the all time list. I do not see him at #1 right now though. Who knows what players were the best or not. Its all relative. No one could beat a good mid 80's series between the Lakers and the Celtics for great, enjoyable rivalry basketball IMO. I feel sorry for the folks that missed that decade of basketball because it was truly a great one. I am not saying the NBA today is not just as good or even better. I am saying those were great times for basketball fans.

ICE

[Juges8932]

whats up Cris! I made my first Spurs game in 1975. I think Ice is one of the all time best players in the game. Dr J wasn't better than Mike, Ice wasn't better than Mike. Kareem might be but no one ever gives him credit. I enjoyed watching Magic more than any other player ever. Even more than Ice and that is saying something. Magic is way under rated and is up there with Mike. IF Kobe had the love of the game that Magic did then I think he could pass Mike on the all time list. I do not see him at #1 right now though. Who knows what players were the best or not. Its all relative. No one could beat a good mid 80's series between the Lakers and the Celtics for great, enjoyable rivalry basketball IMO. I feel sorry for the folks that missed that decade of basketball because it was truly a great one. I am not saying the NBA today is not just as good or even better. I am saying those were great times for basketball fans.

ICE

Are you serious, lol? Kobe is widely regarded to have some of the best work ethic ever and certainly the best currently. He wouldn't be anywhere CLOSE to where he is now without that great work ethic. He wasn't nearly as physically gifted as MJ, but with equal work ethic (Though, even PJax says he thinks Kobe was a harder worker than MJ, and that's saying a lot). He is constantly looking at film, shooting, and working on his game. Even this past summer he worked with Hakeem to improve his post game, at 30/31. I don't think it matters what Kobe would have done, he would never be better than Michael Jordan.

[icemanfan]

Are you serious, lol? Kobe is widely regarded to have some of the best work ethic ever and certainly the best currently. He wouldn't be anywhere CLOSE to where he is now without that great work ethic. He wasn't nearly as physically gifted as MJ, but with equal work ethic (Though, even PJax says he thinks Kobe was a harder worker than MJ, and that's saying a lot). He is constantly looking at film, shooting, and working on his game. Even this past summer he worked with Hakeem to improve his post game, at 30/31. I don't think it matters what Kobe would have done, he would never be better than Michael Jordan.
you misunderstand what I said. When he was in his prime Magic would rather play basketball than do anything else. Pay or no pay. He simply loved the game. I am sure Kobe has worked very hard to get where he is. This brings up another point though. I believe Kobe ( and Kevin Garnet too) would have been better off with at least two years of college ball. There is a maturity of game that comes from this that allows players of his talent level to understand the team dynamics of the game better and faster. Just my opinion though. No proof one way or another.

ICE

[MakeHistory78]

Kid is entitled to his opinion.
Older cats argue with me all the time that Dr. J etc. was better then Jordan....I only seen dude on tape in his prime was a baby in the late 70's early 80's so how could I really know?
Are you kidding me?Please stop this...
Only an idiot compare or think Julius Erving was better or close to MJ...
Jordan was by far better than Erving even at his ABA days...
Have you ever watched Michael Jordan?
I watched both Dr J and MJ and Erving wasn't even close to the GOAT......

Erving isn't a Top-10 player..Even Kobe is better than him.

As I said before if Durant think that Kobe is the GOAT he is the biggest idiot of all time...
Kobe was never as good as MJ was..NOT EVEN CLOSE!

Only LeBron has a small chance to challenge Michael because he is young and he is one of a kind like MJ,Wilt,KAJ,Magic.LeBron is a Top-5 talent ever.
Kobe is a great player the second greatest SG ever but he hasn't GOAT potential and this is proven.

[Juges8932]

you misunderstand what I said. When he was in his prime Magic would rather play basketball than do anything else. Pay or no pay. He simply loved the game. I am sure Kobe has worked very hard to get where he is. This brings up another point though. I believe Kobe ( and Kevin Garnet too) would have been better off with at least two years of college ball. There is a maturity of game that comes from this that allows players of his talent level to understand the team dynamics of the game better and faster. Just my opinion though. No proof one way or another.

ICE

I do agree, particularly with Kobe moreso than Garnett, that he would have benefited a lot from going to college first. His career would also be looked at in higher esteem probably because he wouldn't of had those first two seasons in the league that people always point out as a weakness to Kobe's legacy, but that's a whole other topic.

[BlueandGold]

:roll: Kobe played with a guy for more than half his career who was better than he's ever been. Hell, Kobe isn't even one of the 2 best players Phil Jackson has coached.

Are you seriously the same shaq attack? If you are that's sad how bad your troll-like hate for kobe has evolved over the months on ISH.

[Poodle]

how many times does durant play kobe vs how many games do fans watch kobe?

its so stupid whenever i read posters here pretend nba players, coaches, and people in that business are such authorities over fans that are hardcore into the NBA and watch the games, because i'd bet those fans watch those players a hell of a lot more than the 'authorities' do.

this is why players are retards. any laker fan that isn't a blind homer, or any other observer that watches laker games with any regularity know kobe has lost a step, and he's wishy washy at this point from game to game.

[ILLsmak]

I dont understand why the putting the discussion in the box of the finals. IMO the discussion should be in comparison to every other series that is played and then you should factor un strength of team whatever. The Nets were garbarge and the games were never in doubt, it was a joke and not even worth watching. It was a foregone conclusin.

Do you realize the main reason that those series were a joke is because nobody in the NBA could check Shaq?

Did you even watch it? The finals every year was like the Shaq show. It was a joke, you're right, but that's a testament to Shaq's greatness.

I've never seen a player own the competition the way Shaq did. You are underrating what Shaq means to a team. If Kobe isn't hitting, what was he gonna do? Nothing. Shoot you out of the game, maybe... but Shaq was going to dominate the paint still and probably foul out the other front line.

-Smak

[Pha Q]

Kobe is nowhere to Shaq...Shaq at his prime was a beast and he had one of the three most dominant primes ever IMO with MJ and Wilt...

So Kobe is perhaps the second greatest Shooting guard ever but is nowhere to consider as the GOAT.He isn't even close.Shaq at least has a GOAT candidate prime.

Durant is 22 years old and his favorite player was Vince Carter...Are you kidding?He don't know anything about the History of the game.
Durant is an idiot if he thinks Kobe is the GOAT.
Kobe isn't even the best player in the league.LeBron James is by far the best in the game the last two years.Kobe isn't even close....

Dude...just STFU already about Lebron....dayum...you probably jizzed in your pants right now just talking about how Lebron can be the BEST EVER...LOL He cant be THE BEST EVER since HE DOESNT HAVE ANY FUKKIN RINGS YET.... :roll: :roll: :roll: your a clown

[Pha Q]

Are you kidding me?Please stop this...
Only an idiot compare or think Julius Erving was better or close to MJ...
Jordan was by far better than Erving even at his ABA days...
Have you ever watched Michael Jordan?
I watched both Dr J and MJ and Erving wasn't even close to the GOAT......

Erving isn't a Top-10 player..Even Kobe is better than him.

As I said before if Durant think that Kobe is the GOAT he is the biggest idiot of all time...
Kobe was never as good as MJ was..NOT EVEN CLOSE!

Only LeBron has a small chance to challenge Michael because he is young and he is one of a kind like MJ,Wilt,KAJ,Magic.LeBron is a Top-5 talent ever.
Kobe is a great player the second greatest SG ever but he hasn't GOAT potential and this is proven.


LOL....dude...your some guy behind a computer saying how lebron has a small chance blah blah blah...STFU ***....where were you when kobe was scoring 40 points 5-7 games in row? Scoring 30 points 10-15 games in a row? Has lebron EVER done that yet? Nope....just stop already..ur a joke...how can you say that NBA player is the BIGGEST idiot of all time when hes the one in the NBA and your the one behind a computer? Hes the one that faced Lebron and Kobe already...so he knows how they play....if he said that KOBE is the best...I would believe him more than your B i t c h @ss because he at least got to face them in a game...while you just watch it behind your T.V...lol your a joke...

[Kellogs4toniee]

http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/columns/story?id=5142029
:pimp:


No disrespect to Durant at all, but this is clearly just an example of an idol lookin up and respectin a seasoned veteran. I think it's pretty clear to anyone who has been watching b-ball this year that Kobe has lost a step due to injury and age.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Are you seriously the same shaq attack? If you are that's sad how bad your troll-like hate for kobe has evolved over the months on ISH.

It's flat out pathetic that you consider calling Jordan and Shaq better than Kobe is trolling. I don't hate Kobe, not at all. When he gets underrated or unfairly bashed, I defend him or in cases like this, when he's ridiculously overrated(and yes, putting him in front of Shaq is grossly overrating him) then I point out why that's ridiculous.

[Freshprince619]

It's flat out pathetic that you consider calling Jordan and Shaq better than Kobe is trolling. I don't hate Kobe, not at all. When he gets underrated or unfairly bashed, I defend him or in cases like this, when he's ridiculously overrated(and yes, putting him in front of Shaq is grossly overrating him) then I point out why that's ridiculous.
LOL shaq NEVER went against any real bigman in the finals. a 6'7 ben wallace? a old no knee having rik smits? Todd Mcaulic? If you really think him having big series against these players is impressive. You are pretty dumb. Thats equivalent to steve nash guarding Kobe.

[YAWN]

shaqattack acting like it isn't close :oldlol:

even as early as the end of this season, depending on how it shakes out, people will start to rank kobe ahead of shaq.

[Desperado]

LOL shaq NEVER went against any real bigman in the finals. a 6'7 ben wallace? a old no knee having rik smits? Todd Mcaulic? If you really think him having big series against these players is impressive. You are pretty dumb. Thats equivalent to steve nash guarding Kobe.

Don't forget 35 year old Mutumbo and Erick Dampier.

[phoenix18]

shaqattack acting like it isn't close :oldlol:

even as early as the end of this season, depending on how it shakes out, people will start to rank kobe ahead of shaq.
:roll: :roll:

Do you believe what you just posted?

[LA KB24]

Funny how all these laker Fans bringing up how OKC players saying Kobe is the Best when U all know Lebron is the Best..it is like they are trying to convince people on Ish to change there mind and Say Kobe is the Best..Problem is we watch the Games we Know Lebron is Better so Give it a Rest already.
Yeah, okay.

If Kobe was on the Cavs last season, they would of won the finals. Yeah, I said it.

LeChoke.

[LA KB24]

And I love how all these haters say Kobe is "declining"

He gets BETTER every ****ing year I watch him play.

In case you haven't noticed, he's playing with a broken finger, ****ed up knee, and back spasms.

Also, don't compare Kobe to Jordan.

Jordan is GOAT, nobody can come close.

[phoenix18]

And I love how all these haters say Kobe is "declining"

He gets BETTER every ****ing year I watch him play.

In case you haven't noticed, he's playing with a broken finger, ****ed up knee, and back spasms.
:sleeping

The injuries are the reason why people say he's declining. Do you pay attention and read what these "haters" have to say?

[ShaqAttack3234]

LOL shaq NEVER went against any real bigman in the finals. a 6'7 ben wallace? a old no knee having rik smits? Todd Mcaulic? If you really think him having big series against these players is impressive. You are pretty dumb. Thats equivalent to steve nash guarding Kobe.

Mutombo was an all-star, the league leader in rebounds and the DPOY in 2001 you dumb troll. He also faced Hakeem Olajuwon at his peak in just his 3rd year and held his own, in fact, he put up better numbers than Kobe did in his best finals series and he easily performed better than other, more established superstar big men like Ewing and Robinson did vs Olajuwon around the same time.

Ben Wallace, like Mutombo, is a 4-time DPOY and he was in his prime when he guarded Shaq. Go watch the 2000 finals, Dale Davis guarded Shaq primarily with the help of constant double and triple teams.

Big surprise, Yawn is all over Kobe's nuts as usual. :oldlol: It isn't close. Shaq was better than Kobe for the first 9 years of Kobe's career(the first 4 years by a HUGE margin), and Shaq had an additional 4 years as a superstar before that. Kobe has been better by a wide margin for the last 5 years, but that definitely doesn't make up for Shaq's previous 13 years. Or the fact that Shaq easily had a better peak, he was easily a better playoff performer, and unlike Kobe, he's had legendary finals series. Nor does he have the same kind of playoff failures. Only idiots who have a short term memory will rank Kobe ahead of Shaq. And Shaq has 2 more finals MVP's. Before you start with your usual fanboy 1.A/1.B crap, I can come back by posting links of Kobe saying several times that Shaq was the number 1 guy. And I can come back with the Lakers record with Shaq and w/o Kobe and vice versa.

And as far as players guarding Kobe in the finals? :roll: Who the hell did Indiana have to guard Kobe in 2000? Reggie Miller? He sure as hell didn't face anyone as tough as Mutombo in 2001.

[Kingwillball]

Yeah, okay.

If Kobe was on the Cavs last season, they would of won the finals. Yeah, I said it.

LeChoke.


OK..U and any other laker fan knows deep down they would trade Kobe Straight up for Bron if they had the chance right now so Relax with your BS. :banghead:

[Freshprince619]

OK..U and any other laker fan knows deep down they would trade Kobe Straight up for Bron if they had the chance right now so Relax with your BS. :banghead:
NO IDK ABOUT THAT ONE LOL

Stat chaser or clutch proven champion?

[LA KB24]

OK..U and any other laker fan knows deep down they would trade Kobe Straight up for Bron if they had the chance right now so Relax with your BS. :banghead:

Honestly, no.

[Kingwillball]

NO IDK ABOUT THAT ONE LOL

Stat chaser or clutch proven champion?


Joking right ? Lebron Younger and Better

[Kingwillball]

Honestly, no.


U LIAR !!! Take off the Rose Colored Glasses..

[YAWN]

:roll: :roll:

Do you believe what you just posted?

yes exactly is farfetched in my post? I said depending on how the rest of the season plays out... If he gets bounced this round, then he won't be. If he leads the lakers to another championship, he probably will be ranked ahead of shaq by many members of the media / players / coaches / owners / fans etc... Not all, But a healthy amount. Add another year of good basketball to the resume and that some will turn to most.

Again why the double roll icons?

[LA KB24]

Joking right ? Lebron Younger and Better Younger? Yes.
Better? No.

LeHype.

Honestly, I tried liking LeBron, and I still respect his game, but the kid seriously needs to grow the **** up. He has NO respect for the game at all.

LeChoke. Witness it in the ECF.

[Simple Jack]

Younger? Yes.
Better? No.

LeHype.

Honestly, I tried liking LeBron, and I still respect his game, but the kid seriously needs to grow the **** up. He has NO respect for the game at all.

LeChoke. Witness it in the ECF.

Say hello to the newest troll in the neighborhood.

[raptorfan_dr07]

Mutombo was an all-star, the league leader in rebounds and the DPOY in 2001 you dumb troll. He also faced Hakeem Olajuwon at his peak in just his 3rd year and held his own, in fact, he put up better numbers than Kobe did in his best finals series and he easily performed better than other, more established superstar big men like Ewing and Robinson did vs Olajuwon around the same time.

Ben Wallace, like Mutombo, is a 4-time DPOY and he was in his prime when he guarded Shaq. Go watch the 2000 finals, Dale Davis guarded Shaq primarily with the help of constant double and triple teams.

Big surprise, Yawn is all over Kobe's nuts as usual. :oldlol: It isn't close. Shaq was better than Kobe for the first 9 years of Kobe's career(the first 4 years by a HUGE margin), and Shaq had an additional 4 years as a superstar before that. Kobe has been better by a wide margin for the last 5 years, but that definitely doesn't make up for Shaq's previous 13 years. Or the fact that Shaq easily had a better peak, he was easily a better playoff performer, and unlike Kobe, he's had legendary finals series. Nor does he have the same kind of playoff failures. Only idiots who have a short term memory will rank Kobe ahead of Shaq. And Shaq has 2 more finals MVP's. Before you start with your usual fanboy 1.A/1.B crap, I can come back by posting links of Kobe saying several times that Shaq was the number 1 guy. And I can come back with the Lakers record with Shaq and w/o Kobe and vice versa.

And as far as players guarding Kobe in the finals? :roll: Who the hell did Indiana have to guard Kobe in 2000? Reggie Miller? He sure as hell didn't face anyone as tough as Mutombo in 2001.

ShaqAttack, you know I love seeing you own these kids who weren't even old enough to have watched a prime Shaq, but could you please stop quoting them? :D lol. They're on my ignore list and I enjoy coming to Insidehoops and not having to read their utter BS they spout as if they actually know what they're talking about. :lol

Just another little tidbit of those finals years: Kobe was getting lit up so bad by AI that Phil Jackson had to go with seldom used benchwarmer Tyronn Lue to check him. And before Kobe fans jump in with "Derek Fisher was guarding him" BS, here's a video that proves my point, check who the primary defender on AI is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79WSHpMU894

In Allen Iverson's 2001 Finals appearance, he had a more dominating performance in one game than ANY of Kobe's Finals games. The only one that comes close is Game 1 of last year's Finals. Shaq on the other hand, has had numerous games of that magnitude in the Finals.

[raptorfan_dr07]

Say hello to the newest troll in the neighborhood.

Thanks for pointing him out, ignore list he he comes. Although I suppose it isn't too hard to decipher with a username like "LA KB24". That's a dead giveaway. :lol Anyone with "Kobe" "24" "KB" "BlackMamba" or a Kobe avatar usually turns out to be a troll.

[Freshprince619]

ShaqAttack, you know I love seeing you own these kids who weren't even old enough to have watched a prime Shaq, but could you please stop quoting them? :D lol. They're on my ignore list and I enjoy coming to Insidehoops and not having to read their utter BS they spout as if they actually know what they're talking about. :lol

Just another little tidbit of those finals years: Kobe was getting lit up so bad by AI that Phil Jackson had to go with seldom used benchwarmer Tyronn Lue to check him. And before Kobe fans jump in with "Derek Fisher was guarding him" BS, here's a video that proves my point, check who the primary defender on AI is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79WSHpMU894

In Allen Iverson's 2001 Finals appearance, he had a more dominating performance in one game than ANY of Kobe's Finals games. The only one that comes close is Game 1 of last year's Finals. Shaq on the other hand, has had numerous games of that magnitude in the Finals.

Lol is this guy stupid? if you are 17 now you were old enough to see prime shaq play.

Lmfaoo acting like the man played in th 80's

[LA KB24]

Say hello to the newest troll in the neighborhood. Not trolling, stating my opinion (which I'm entitled to have according to the administrators of the forum).

If you don't like my posts, put me on ignore, just as raptorboy did. It's simple.

[LA_Showtime]

Younger? Yes.
Better? No.

LeHype.

Honestly, I tried liking LeBron, and I still respect his game, but the kid seriously needs to grow the **** up. He has NO respect for the game at all.

LeChoke. Witness it in the ECF.

This guy is probably a Laker hater who's posing as a Laker fan.

[LA KB24]

Yeah, sure. Been a fan since age 12 (when I started playing), but whatever.

[Freshprince619]

Yeah, sure. Been a fan since age 12 (when I started playing), but whatever.
Lol basically if your not on Lebrons nuts they will consider you a troll.
Untill they convert you into a believer lol

[bdreason]

Trying to bait Kobe into shooting the Lakers out game 6.

[Desperado]

I agree with Phil Jackson ''Kobe is the best all around player I ever coached''

[branslowski]

Many ppl have Bird and Shaq very close in the all-time player rankings....If Kobe wins a title and the Finals MVP then his resume would be better than Birds...Iam working on that Factual evidence right now that shows how Kobe>>Bird.

[LA_Showtime]

Kobe better than Bird? Eh, no. As far as peak play and what not, Bird trumps Kobe. I suppose you could argue that Kobe's had more team success if he wins another championship, but of course you could argue he played with the most dominant force of all-time--Shaq.

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

damn peoples opinions whether or not theyre real really piss you girls off huh????:lol
i was thinking the same thing. these pussssies sit online all day crying about kobe. it's fcking ridiculous.

[Allstar24]

First of all, I consider 2008 to be Kobe's best all around year, but on the other points? They wouldn't have been in a position to get swept had Kobe's shot selection been so horrendous and his ego been so huge at that point. Yeah, he had the big game 4, but other than that? He missed almost 2 games and averaged 16/4/4 on 37% shooting and like 19 shots per game. He had one good game in the series. Hell, he didn't even defend one of Indiana's 2 best perimeter players most of the time. They put him on Mark Jackson.
You can't bring up ego and not mention Shaq. Both Kobe and Shaq were responsible for the 04 debacle (Kobe more than Shaq). And I know Kobe didn't have a great finals series in 2000 but you said he was insignificant, which isn't true. Besides he was what, 19 years old at that time? He started becoming a star the following year and put up monster numbers vs the Spurs, Kings in the 01 playoffs. He averaged 27pts/5 asts/6 rbs on 51% shooting in the 02 finals. He went up against one of the best defensive teams in the 08 finals who were hell bent on shutting him down. He put up great all-around numbers in the finals last year. So suggesting he always underperforms in the finals is not entirely true.

[LA_Showtime]

You can't bring up ego and not mention Shaq. Both Kobe and Shaq were responsible for the 04 debacle (Kobe more than Shaq). And I know Kobe didn't have a great finals series in 2000 but you said he was insignificant, which isn't true. Besides he was what, 19 years old at that time? He started becoming a star the following year and put up monster numbers vs the Spurs, Kings in the 01 playoffs. He averaged 27pts/5 asts/6 rbs on 51% shooting in the 02 finals. He went up against one of the best defensive teams in the 08 finals who were hell bent on shutting him down. He put up great all-around numbers in the finals last year. So suggesting he always underperforms in the finals is not entirely true.

Also, does Shaq lose any brownie points for showing up out of shape and/or injured.

"I got hurt on company time, so I'll heal on company time."

[ShaqAttack3234]

You can't bring up ego and not mention Shaq. Both Kobe and Shaq were responsible for the 04 debacle (Kobe more than Shaq). And I know Kobe didn't have a great finals series in 2000 but you said he was insignificant, which isn't true. Besides he was what, 19 years old at that time? He started becoming a star the following year and put up monster numbers vs the Spurs, Kings in the 01 playoffs. He averaged 27pts/5 asts/6 rbs on 51% shooting in the 02 finals. He went up against one of the best defensive teams in the 08 finals who were hell bent on shutting him down. He put up great all-around numbers in the finals last year. So suggesting he always underperforms in the finals is not entirely true.

What did Shaq do in the 2004 finals? He was scoring at will and not getting the ball. Shaq got lazy in 2003 by sitting out early, he was a monster once he came back. He can be blamed for the Lakers not winning four in a row, but 2004? No, that was a combination of Kobe, injuries and an ineffective Gary Payton.

I don't mean that he always underperforms in the finals, I meant that he doesn't have a finals series out of the 6 he's played in that really stands out among the all time great, but he does have 2 of the more high profile failures in the finals. He was good in 2009, very good in 2002(but overshadowed) and pretty good in 2001, regarding finals of course. He has plenty of great playoff series, but it doesn't help his legacy that his finals performances haven't been up to the standard of the other top 10 greats, aside from maybe Wilt.

And Kobe was 21 turning 22 in 2000, not 19. If you look at his finals series, aside from game 4, what did he do? 14 points on 13 shots in game 1, played 9 minutes in game 2, missed game 3, shot 4 for 20 in game 5 and 8 for 27 in game 6.

I wouldn't call 2009 underperforming and certainly not 2002, but it does kind of diminish his best finals performance(2002) when you consider he had a teammate averaging 10 more ppg than him, atleast compared to the other top 10 players.

[branslowski]

Kobe better than Bird? Eh, no. As far as peak play and what not, Bird trumps Kobe. I suppose you could argue that Kobe's had more team success if he wins another championship, but of course you could argue he played with the most dominant force of all-time--Shaq.

lol@ the peak play sh!T.....IF Kobe wins thwe title...5 Chips, 2 Finals MVP's...More than Bird...More Cluth, Better defense, more total playoff points, more All Teams, More All-Star, More All Star MVP, sick dominating scoring, exc...Just the little stuff...I gotta put it together...

[Desperado]

Regarding Kobe's averages in the 2000 Finals.

He only scored 2 points in game 2 because he twisted his ankle in the first quarter and left the game. He also didn't play in game 3.


But how about Game 4, where he single-handedly carried the team when Shaq fouled out in the 4th. He hit 4 huge free throws and lit the Pacers up in overtime in what is regarded as on of the most exciting playoff games and clutch performances.


Your evaluation of Kobe as a "bust" in that series is grossly flawed... Kobe not only missed games 2 & 3, but game 5 is universally accepted as a game the Lakers threw (lost by 33 pts, remember) so they could celebrate in L.A.

Kobe only played in 3 games that mattered in that series and averaged 23 ppg on 42% shooting in those contests....Stop being a hater.



Also not to mention in the 2000 Western Conference Finals (which many experts consider the ''real Finals'' back then) Kobe led the Lakers with 22ppg 5ast 4reb and in the deciding game 7 he led all Lakers with 25points 7ast 11rebs and brought them back from and 4th quarter 16 point deficit against Portland.


2001 Western Conference Finals vs San Antonio (Much better team then Philly...much better)......Kobe got carried by Shaq?..Kobe averaged 33points 7reb and 7ast

2002 Western Conference Finals vs Kings Kobe averaged 27ppg 4st and 6reb (Kings were a far better team then NJ)


Again during the Lakers three peat from 00 - 02 the great teams were in the Western Conference...many experts agreed that the "real" NBA championship was played in the WCFinals and the NBA Finals were a mere formality .....the East was really weak during this time. Seriously would the Nets and even Milwaukee, New York or Boston (ECF squads) even make the playoffs or advance past the first round in the west back then?

[Freshprince619]

Regarding Kobe's averages in the 2000 Finals.

He only scored 2 points in game 2 because he twisted his ankle in the first quarter and left the game. He also didn't play in game 3.


But how about Game 4, where he single-handedly carried the team when Shaq fouled out in the 4th. He hit 4 huge free throws and lit the Pacers up in overtime in what is regarded as on of the most exciting playoff games and clutch performances.


Your evaluation of Kobe as a "bust" in that series is grossly flawed... Kobe not only missed games 2 & 3, but game 5 is universally accepted as a game the Lakers threw (lost by 33 pts, remember) so they could celebrate in L.A.

Kobe only played in 3 games that mattered in that series and averaged 23 ppg on 42% shooting in those contests....Stop being a hater.



Also not to mention in the 2000 Western Conference Finals (which many experts consider the ''real Finals'' back then) Kobe led the Lakers with 22ppg 5ast 4reb and in the deciding game 7 he led all Lakers with 25points 7ast 11rebs and brought them back from and 4th quarter 16 point deficit against Portland.


2001 Western Conference Finals vs San Antonio (Much better team then Philly...much better)......Kobe got carried by Shaq?..Kobe averaged 33points 7reb and 7ast

2002 Western Conference Finals vs Kings Kobe averaged 27ppg 4st and 6reb (Kings were a far better team then NJ)


Again during the Lakers three peat from 00 - 02 the great teams were in the Western Conference...many experts agreed that the "real" NBA championship was played in the WCFinals and the NBA Finals were a mere formality .....the East was really weak during this time. Seriously would the Nets and even Milwaukee, New York or Boston (ECF squads) even make the playoffs or advance past the first round in the west back then?


QFT :applause: :applause: :applause:

[branslowski]

Regarding Kobe's averages in the 2000 Finals.

He only scored 2 points in game 2 because he twisted his ankle in the first quarter and left the game. He also didn't play in game 3.


But how about Game 4, where he single-handedly carried the team when Shaq fouled out in the 4th. He hit 4 huge free throws and lit the Pacers up in overtime in what is regarded as on of the most exciting playoff games and clutch performances.


Your evaluation of Kobe as a "bust" in that series is grossly flawed... Kobe not only missed games 2 & 3, but game 5 is universally accepted as a game the Lakers threw (lost by 33 pts, remember) so they could celebrate in L.A.

Kobe only played in 3 games that mattered in that series and averaged 23 ppg on 42% shooting in those contests....Stop being a hater.



Also not to mention in the 2000 Western Conference Finals (which many experts consider the ''real Finals'' back then) Kobe led the Lakers with 22ppg 5ast 4reb and in the deciding game 7 he led all Lakers with 25points 7ast 11rebs and brought them back from and 4th quarter 16 point deficit against Portland.


2001 Western Conference Finals vs San Antonio (Much better team then Philly...much better)......Kobe got carried by Shaq?..Kobe averaged 33points 7reb and 7ast

2002 Western Conference Finals vs Kings Kobe averaged 27ppg 4st and 6reb (Kings were a far better team then NJ)


Again during the Lakers three peat from 00 - 02 the great teams were in the Western Conference...many experts agreed that the "real" NBA championship was played in the WCFinals and the NBA Finals were a mere formality .....the East was really weak during this time. Seriously would the Nets and even Milwaukee, New York or Boston (ECF squads) even make the playoffs or advance past the first round in the west back then?

Thread Closer/

:applause: :applause: :applause: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon:

[Roundball_Rock]

many experts agreed that the "real" NBA championship was played in the WCFinals and the NBA Finals were a mere formality .....the East was really weak during this time. Seriously would the Nets and even Milwaukee, New York or Boston (ECF squads) even make the playoffs or advance past the first round in the west back then?

Probably not and if they did it would have been as 7 or 8 seeds. Look at their records versus the West and compare it to the weak Western playoff teams, as well as the 10th place team during that period. Then compare those Western team's records against Eastern teams with the Nets, Knicks, Bucks, etc.

Both sides are making good points. Shaq arguably is the GOAT finals performer. Kobe has generally played well in the finals. He had a few duds, but so did practically every player who has been in the finals that frequently.

As far as all-time rankings go, Kobe has a legit chance to eclipse Shaq, although imo this is because Shaq is underrated (he should easily be top 5 all-time). Most people have Shaq below Magic and Bird. Some have him below Hakeem and/or Duncan. Given this it would not be a shock if when it is all said and done Kobe is higher on most all-time lists.

[Simple Jack]

Not trolling, stating my opinion (which I'm entitled to have according to the administrators of the forum).

If you don't like my posts, put me on ignore, just as raptorboy did. It's simple.


LB KB24 after LeBron wins the title:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee925OTFBCA#t=00m13s

[ShaqAttack3234]

:roll: Ok, erase game 2, Kobe still averaged several more shots than points. Yeah....Kobe missed 16 of his 20 shots in game 5 on purpose. :roll: So what's your excuse for him shooting 8 for 27 in game 6? Shaq came to play in game 5, 35/11/3 on 17/27 shooting.

:roll: So now the Spurs minus their 2nd leading scorer and only perimeter threat were a much better team than Philly? Then why is it that the Lakers beat the Spurs by an average of 22+ ppg in a 4 game sweep? Philly won the first game on LA's homecourt and actually fought the Lakers unlike, the Spurs.

:roll: at this "real finals" crap. The Pacers made it a competitive series in 2000 and were more experienced than LA. Yeah, Portland was better, but what's your point? Kobe averaged 20/5/6 on 44% shooting in the series while Shaq averaged 26/12/4 on 54% shooting while constantly being double/triple teamed and hacked after his 41/11/7/5 game 1.

Obviously Sacramento was much better than New Jersey and I could see that as "the real finals", but once again, Shaq averaged 30/14 on 53% shooting while Kobe averaged 27/6/4 on 42%. Not to mention that Shaq fought off elimination with 41/17 in game 6 and sealed it with 35/13/4 in game 7.

Out of those WCF, Kobe was deserving of MVP in 1 of them, and as long as you like to ***** about who was guarding them, what's tougher....facing the Spurs twin towers with a prime Duncan or the Spurs ancient perimeter players at the time(remember, Bowen became a Spur the following season)? And once again, you can't make a case for that being the "real finals" when Philly played them MUCH tougher than the Spurs and the Spurs were missing their only perimeter threat/2 option.

[Freshprince619]

:roll: Ok, erase game 2, Kobe still averaged several more shots than points. Yeah....Kobe missed 16 of his 20 shots in game 5 on purpose. :roll: So what's your excuse for him shooting 8 for 27 in game 6? Shaq came to play in game 5, 35/11/3 on 17/27 shooting.

:roll: So now the Spurs minus their 2nd leading scorer and only perimeter threat were a much better team than Philly? Then why is it that the Lakers beat the Spurs by an average of 22+ ppg in a 4 game sweep? Philly won the first game on LA's homecourt and actually fought the Lakers unlike, the Spurs.

:roll: at this "real finals" crap. The Pacers made it a competitive series in 2000 and were more experienced than LA. Yeah, Portland was better, but what's your point? Kobe averaged 20/5/6 on 44% shooting in the series while Shaq averaged 26/12/4 on 54% shooting while constantly being double/triple teamed and hacked after his 41/11/7/5 game 1.

Obviously Sacramento was much better than New Jersey and I could see that as "the real finals", but once again, Shaq averaged 30/14 on 53% shooting while Kobe averaged 27/6/4 on 42%. Not to mention that Shaq fought off elimination with 41/17 in game 6 and sealed it with 35/13/4 in game 7.

Out of those WCF, Kobe was deserving of MVP in 1 of them, and as long as you like to ***** about who was guarding them, what's tougher....facing the Spurs twin towers with a prime Duncan or the Spurs ancient perimeter players at the time(remember, Bowen became a Spur the following season)? And once again, you can't make a case for that being the "real finals" when Philly played them MUCH tougher than the Spurs and the Spurs were missing their only perimeter threat/2 option.

Excessive Smilies in a argument = Major Insecurities

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

:roll: Ok, erase game 2, Kobe still averaged several more shots than points. Yeah....Kobe missed 16 of his 20 shots in game 5 on purpose. :roll: So what's your excuse for him shooting 8 for 27 in game 6? Shaq came to play in game 5, 35/11/3 on 17/27 shooting.

:roll: So now the Spurs minus their 2nd leading scorer and only perimeter threat were a much better team than Philly? Then why is it that the Lakers beat the Spurs by an average of 22+ ppg in a 4 game sweep? Philly won the first game on LA's homecourt and actually fought the Lakers unlike, the Spurs.

:roll: at this "real finals" crap. The Pacers made it a competitive series in 2000 and were more experienced than LA. Yeah, Portland was better, but what's your point? Kobe averaged 20/5/6 on 44% shooting in the series while Shaq averaged 26/12/4 on 54% shooting while constantly being double/triple teamed and hacked after his 41/11/7/5 game 1.

Obviously Sacramento was much better than New Jersey and I could see that as "the real finals", but once again, Shaq averaged 30/14 on 53% shooting while Kobe averaged 27/6/4 on 42%. Not to mention that Shaq fought off elimination with 41/17 in game 6 and sealed it with 35/13/4 in game 7.

Out of those WCF, Kobe was deserving of MVP in 1 of them, and as long as you like to ***** about who was guarding them, what's tougher....facing the Spurs twin towers with a prime Duncan or the Spurs ancient perimeter players at the time(remember, Bowen became a Spur the following season)? And once again, you can't make a case for that being the "real finals" when Philly played them MUCH tougher than the Spurs and the Spurs were missing their only perimeter threat/2 option.

holy sh!t ur still talking about kobe? :wtf:

[Desperado]

FG% is a stat that favors post players and Shaq shoot's a very high FG% because his game consists mainly of just backing down and throwing up a 5' turnaround.

Now your saying the Sixers were better then the Spurs? :oldlol: You lost credibility on that one. The Sixers barely won game 1 then they got owned the rest of the series losing 4 straight games.

The Spurs had already won a championship and would go on to win 2 more. That team would have won the title in 2001 if the Lakers didn't beat them.

At least you gave it a try but failed miserably. Kobe averaged 22ppg 5ast and 6reb in 2000..in the deciding game 7 he fueled the come back. In 2001 he was the MVP. In 02' it could be a toss up. Kobe always stepped up in the in the "real" finals those years.




Also you say the defenders Kobe went up against vs San Antonio were ''ancient'' but Shaq went against 36 year old Sabonis, 35 year old Rik Smits and Mutumbo and 34 year old Vlade Divac.

[LA KB24]

Regarding Kobe's averages in the 2000 Finals.

He only scored 2 points in game 2 because he twisted his ankle in the first quarter and left the game. He also didn't play in game 3.


But how about Game 4, where he single-handedly carried the team when Shaq fouled out in the 4th. He hit 4 huge free throws and lit the Pacers up in overtime in what is regarded as on of the most exciting playoff games and clutch performances.


Your evaluation of Kobe as a "bust" in that series is grossly flawed... Kobe not only missed games 2 & 3, but game 5 is universally accepted as a game the Lakers threw (lost by 33 pts, remember) so they could celebrate in L.A.

Kobe only played in 3 games that mattered in that series and averaged 23 ppg on 42% shooting in those contests....Stop being a hater.



Also not to mention in the 2000 Western Conference Finals (which many experts consider the ''real Finals'' back then) Kobe led the Lakers with 22ppg 5ast 4reb and in the deciding game 7 he led all Lakers with 25points 7ast 11rebs and brought them back from and 4th quarter 16 point deficit against Portland.


2001 Western Conference Finals vs San Antonio (Much better team then Philly...much better)......Kobe got carried by Shaq?..Kobe averaged 33points 7reb and 7ast

2002 Western Conference Finals vs Kings Kobe averaged 27ppg 4st and 6reb (Kings were a far better team then NJ)


Again during the Lakers three peat from 00 - 02 the great teams were in the Western Conference...many experts agreed that the "real" NBA championship was played in the WCFinals and the NBA Finals were a mere formality .....the East was really weak during this time. Seriously would the Nets and even Milwaukee, New York or Boston (ECF squads) even make the playoffs or advance past the first round in the west back then?

Good post. :applause:

[Simple Jack]

FG% is a stat that favors post players and Shaq shoot's a very high FG% because his game consists mainly of just backing down and throwing up a 5' turnaround.

Now your saying the Sixers were better then the Spurs? :oldlol: You lost credibility on that one. The Sixers barely won game 1 then they got owned the rest of the series losing 4 straight games.

The Spurs had already won a championship and would go on to win 2 more. That team would have won the title in 2001 if the Lakers didn't beat them.

At least you gave it a try but failed miserably. Kobe averaged 22ppg 5ast and 6reb in 2000..in the deciding game 7 he fueled the come back. In 2001 he was the MVP. In 02' it could be a toss up. Kobe always stepped up in the in the "real" finals those years.




Also you say the defenders Kobe went up against vs San Antonio were ''ancient'' but Shaq went against 36 year old Sabonis, 35 year old Rik Smits and Mutumbo and 34 year old Vlade Divac.

Anyone who tries to portray Kobe's first finals as efficient or "good" fails. If by your standards that was a good series for him; it doesn't say much about Kobe.

[Replay32]

Durant was trippin' with that quote. Obviously kobe is "not" the best ever and he's obviously lost a step. Kobe is great though, but to say what Durant said isn't true. Maybe he was just respecting a vet and someone he's looked up to. Who knows?

[Replay32]

Anyone who tries to portray Kobe's first finals as efficient or "good" fails. If by your standards that was a good series for him; it doesn't say much about Kobe.

Yeah. Kobe only had 1 great game in that series.

[DixieNourmous]

I named my dog Shaq, so dont think im a hater....

IMO Shaq had great years where he dominated the league. He has size, power, and is generous to underprivileged childeren.

Shaq for many years has had the problem coming into camp over weight.
Shaq has always been a poor FT shooter.

Now, if you took away Shaq`s god given size, you would have a no NBA street baller, working at Mc Donalds or a circus.

Lets face it, people put him as top center of all time, yet he never really did anything outstanding for a long period of time.

I dont care if he broke his wrist when he was 8,, if I had his size I would be better AND make free throws. :rockon:

If I had Kobe`s size, It would be much more difficult do do better than Kobe has done with it.

[Simple Jack]

I named my dog Shaq, so dont think im a hater....

IMO Shaq had great years where he dominated the league. He has size, power, and is generous to underprivileged childeren.

Shaq for many years has had the problem coming into camp over weight.
Shaq has always been a poor FT shooter.

Now, if you took away Shaq`s god given size, you would have a no NBA street baller, working at Mc Donalds or a circus.

Lets face it, people put him as top center of all time, yet he never really did anything outstanding for a long period of time.

I dont care if he broke his wrist when he was 8,, if I had his size I would be better AND make free throws. :rockon:

If I had Kobe`s size, It would be much more difficult do do better than Kobe has done with it.

Terrible logic. Earl Boykins is the goat then.

[ReturnofJPR]

Durant is an idiot and soft. that is all. I hope he scores 50 tonight tho!

[RealKnowledge]

Terrible logic. Earl Boykins is the goat then.
How is that poor logic?

Shaq was FAR from a very skilled player. He was just blessed with being 7'2 and the size of a football player. Thats why its Hakeem > Shaq. Hakeem was WAY more skilled then Shaq could ever dream of being

[Hotlantadude81]

Kobe's inconsistent defense and on and off jumper will never allow him to be the best. I hated MJ when he played, but Kobe isn't even close. Not close. While Kobe can get hot, you still know in the back of your mind that he is only a 45% shooter.

[Hotlantadude81]

How is that poor logic?

Shaq was FAR from a very skilled player. He was just blessed with being 7'2 and the size of a football player. Thats why its Hakeem > Shaq. Hakeem was WAY more skilled then Shaq could ever dream of being

I wonder who Zoe Saldana sucked off to get 2 major movie roles last year.

[Mikaiel]

Sometimes, I think the world would be a better place without Kobe. Sad, but true.

[RealKnowledge]

Sometimes, I think the world would be a better place without Kobe. Sad, but true.http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv258/LazarusPeacecraft/youmad.jpg

[Mikaiel]

Thanks, you just proved my point.

[ShaqAttack3234]

How is that poor logic?

Shaq was FAR from a very skilled player. He was just blessed with being 7'2 and the size of a football player. Thats why its Hakeem > Shaq. Hakeem was WAY more skilled then Shaq could ever dream of being

Yes, Hakeem was more skilled than Shaq, what's your point? O'Neal's 3 inch height advantage, 80 pound weight advantage, superior athleticism and passing skills allowed him to be a more effective player, which is what counts.

I was a big Hakeem fan, but Shaq was better in his prime.

Pau Gasol is also more skilled than Shaq. What matters is who is more effective. Steve Nash is more skilled than Lebron, doesn't mean he's better.

Shaq's skills are underrated, though. Among centers in the last 20 years, only Hakeem had better footwork, Shaq's passing is near the top, he had several go to moves and counters that were consistent and he produced in every area. He ended up being a better scorer, rebounder and passer than Hakeem. The only skill Shaq lacked is free throw shooting, but he was a more efficient scorer than Hakeem anyway, hell, he wasn't only more efficient, but he scored more too. Don't even mention jumpshots because I wouldn't want someone 7'2", 340 with Shaq's athleticism and post moves taking mid-range jumpers.

[LA KB24]

Sometimes, I think the world would be a better place without Kobe. Sad, but true.

Lol, bitter LeBron nutswingers are bitter.

[Simple Jack]

How is that poor logic?

Shaq was FAR from a very skilled player. He was just blessed with being 7'2 and the size of a football player. Thats why its Hakeem > Shaq. Hakeem was WAY more skilled then Shaq could ever dream of being

Because skill isn't the only factor in determining how good of a player you are. The reason Hakeem was better than Shaq (and it's arguable) is because he was a better defensive player, a much better ft shooter, and made most of the other C's in the league look silly in his matchups.

[Simple Jack]

Yes, Hakeem was more skilled than Shaq, what's your point? O'Neal's 3 inch height advantage, 80 pound weight advantage, superior athleticism and passing skills allowed him to be a more effective player, which is what counts.

I was a big Hakeem fan, but Shaq was better in his prime.

Pau Gasol is also more skilled than Shaq. What matters is who is more effective. Steve Nash is more skilled than Lebron, doesn't mean he's better.

Shaq's skills are underrated, though. Among centers in the last 20 years, only Hakeem had better footwork, Shaq's passing is near the top, he had several go to moves and counters that were consistent and he produced in every area. He ended up being a better scorer, rebounder and passer than Hakeem. The only skill Shaq lacked is free throw shooting, but he was a more efficient scorer than Hakeem anyway, hell, he wasn't only more efficient, but he scored more too. Don't even mention jumpshots because I wouldn't want someone 7'2", 340 with Shaq's athleticism and post moves taking mid-range jumpers.

Definitely debatable as to who was better in their primes. There's no easy answer to that question.

[Orlando Magic]

Kobe's not the best ever, Durant probably didn't mean for it to come out like that...but Kobe will go down as a greater player than Shaq when it's all said and done. Shaq's been irrelevant since 2006.

I'd take one year of prime Shaq versus 10 years of Kobe if I'm trying to get a ring. Kobe will not go down as greater than Shaq in the eyes of anyone other than stupid fuuucks that were 12 years old watching Kobe as they grew up.

[LA_Showtime]

I like how nobody suggests that Kobe is the best ever. All the OP did was post what Durant said. Naturally, you idiots overreact and now we have 10 pages of this shit.

Kobe ain't the best ever. He's not even the best Laker. But ya know what, dude's a winner, and that's all that matters.

[Orlando Magic]

I like how nobody suggests that Kobe is the best ever. All the OP did was post what Durant said. Naturally, you idiots overreact and now we have 10 pages of this shit.

Kobe ain't the best ever. He's not even the best Laker. But ya know what, dude's a winner, and that's all that matters.

Well there's hope for you yet.

However, where the **** do you get the notion that he's a winner? What did he do when he was by himself pre Pau? That's right. The same thing Wade is doing now and the same thing McGrady did back on the Magic. Put up stats on a suck ass team. He's not a winner. He's been fortunate to have great teammates most of his career. He doesn't make players better / make their game easier. He is not LeBron. LeBron is a winner because everyone around him improves dramatically due to his style of play.

Kobe is one of the greatest talents to ever play the game, and yet somehow, he is still the most insanely overrated player to pick up a basketball... besides possibly Manu Ginobili on this site.

[LA_Showtime]

Well there's hope for you yet.

However, where the **** do you get the notion that he's a winner? What did he do when he was by himself pre Pau? That's right. The same thing Wade is doing now and the same thing McGrady did back on the Magic. Put up stats on a suck ass team. He's not a winner. He's been fortunate to have great teammates most of his career. He doesn't make players better / make their game easier. He is not LeBron. LeBron is a winner because everyone around him improves dramatically due to his style of play.

Kobe is one of the greatest talents to ever play the game, and yet somehow, he is still the most insanely overrated player to pick up a basketball... besides possibly Manu Ginobili on this site.

All you guys can argue is "what ifs?". Let's be honest here, you don't like Kobe, you don't like the Lakers, and it makes you angry to see them successful. Just be honest. There's no point in pretending you aren't biased when it's obvious you'd rather see Kobe lose than your own team win.

Dude's a winner. Regardless of his teammates, he's got the job done. Jordan didn't win anything without Pippen, does that mean he's not a winner? LeBron hasn't won anything yet, but I don't see you declaring him a perennial loser either.

[Orlando Magic]

All you guys can argue is "what ifs?". Let's be honest here, you don't like Kobe, you don't like the Lakers, and it makes you angry to see them successful. Just be honest. There's no point in pretending you aren't biased when it's obvious you'd rather see Kobe lose than your own team win.

Dude's a winner. Regardless of his teammates, he's got the job done. Jordan didn't win anything without Pippen, does that mean he's not a winner? LeBron hasn't won anything yet, but I don't see you declaring him a perennial loser either.

Jordan won 6 titles as the man. Kobe got 1 with the best front line in basketball behind him.

I don't like Kobe because he has been shoved down my throat by posters like you and the media alike since he entered the league, he never lived up to that hype, and yet he is still force fed to us all the ****ing time. Let Kobe be Kobe. Stop overrating him. He has never been better than a prime T-Mac. He just sustained it for a much longer time. He's not any better than we've seen from Wade.

Why doesn't this shit happen with people like Wade? It's because he plays in LA. ****.

I don't dislike Wade and I definitely am not a Wade fan nor a Miami fan. Why don't I dislike Wade? Because people don't try to anoint him to be something that he is not, which is exactly what they do with Kobe. See the difference?

[chazzy]

Jordan won 6 titles as the man. Kobe has 1 with the best front line in basketball behind him.

I don't like Kobe because he has been shoved down my throat by posters like you and the media alike since he entered the league, he never lived up to that hype, and yet he is still force fed to us all the ****ing time. Let Kobe be Kobe. Stop overrating him.

Why doesn't this shit happen with people like Wade? It's because he plays in LA. ****.

Dude, all he said was Kobe is a winner. How is that FORCE FEEDING DOWN THROATS OVERRATING? Didn't say anything about being better than Jordan or something

[Mikaiel]

However, where the **** do you get the notion that he's a winner? What did he do when he was by himself pre Pau? That's right. The same thing Wade is doing now and the same thing McGrady did back on the Magic.

Okay, so Kobe's not God and he needs talent around him to win. But who doesn't ? :confusedshrug:


He doesn't make players better / make their game easier.

Pau Gasol :

Career High in FG% in Memphis : 53.8%
FG% with Kobe : 58.9%, 56.7%, 53.6%

[LA_Showtime]

So basically you took my "Kobe's a winner" comment out of context. Not surprising.

All I see is another biased idiot who refuses to admit he's wrong. Maybe you should spend less time worrying about the Lakers and more time worrying about the Magic. They are, after all, very good.

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

Jordan won 6 titles as the man. Kobe got 1 with the best front line in basketball behind him.

I don't like Kobe because he has been shoved down my throat by posters like you and the media alike since he entered the league, he never lived up to that hype, and yet he is still force fed to us all the ****ing time. Let Kobe be Kobe. Stop overrating him. He has never been better than a prime T-Mac. He just sustained it for a much longer time. He's not any better than we've seen from Wade.

Why doesn't this shit happen with people like Wade? It's because he plays in LA. ****.

I don't dislike Wade and I definitely am not a Wade fan nor a Miami fan. Why don't I dislike Wade? Because people don't try to anoint him to be something that he is not, which is exactly what they do with Kobe. See the difference?
that just means ur a weak minded motherfcker imo...

http://ducetwo.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/kobe-over-dwight.jpg

http://haapmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/ad080baa0e413d480d264aa1771ad47f-getty-bkn-nba-final-lakers-magic.jpg

[Pha Q]

Jordan won 6 titles as the man. Kobe got 1 with the best front line in basketball behind him.

I don't like Kobe because he has been shoved down my throat by posters like you and the media alike since he entered the league, he never lived up to that hype, and yet he is still force fed to us all the ****ing time. Let Kobe be Kobe. Stop overrating him. He has never been better than a prime T-Mac. He just sustained it for a much longer time. He's not any better than we've seen from Wade.

Why doesn't this shit happen with people like Wade? It's because he plays in LA. ****.

I don't dislike Wade and I definitely am not a Wade fan nor a Miami fan. Why don't I dislike Wade? Because people don't try to anoint him to be something that he is not, which is exactly what they do with Kobe. See the difference?

Just STFU about Jordan winning 6....he needed PIPPEN and everybody else on that squad...so just STFU...JORDAN could not win it all by himself as it as shown early in his career until he had other talent around him...so just stop taking all the credit from KOBE because SHAQ needed KOBE and KOBE needed SHAQ...ur a clown...u dumb piece of $hit

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

Just STFU about Jordan winning 6....he needed PIPPEN and everybody else on that squad...so just STFU...JORDAN could not win it all by himself as it as shown early in his career until he had other talent around him...so just stop taking all the credit from KOBE because SHAQ needed KOBE and KOBE needed SHAQ...ur a clown...u dumb piece of $hit
if this moron fails to give kobe any credit at all...i hate to see what he thinks about his hero, dwight howard...

[thejumpa]

Damn this thread reminds me of when I was 16.....young, ignorant, and downright annoying. Why is that no one on this site can discuss basketball in a calm matter? If it's a thread about Kobe or LeBron, it always gets real tense as soon as someone says something like "Kobe won....Lebron hasn't" Calm your little asses down....

[LA_Showtime]

No, Jumpa, that guy is just a moron. Kobe isn't a winner because he's had Shaq and Gasol, but Jordan is a winner even though he had Pippen. Kobe can't do math without a calculator, neither can Dwight Howard, but because his name's not Kobe Bryant it doesn't matter. He's just a biased idiot.

[Orlando Magic]

No, Jumpa, that guy is just a moron. Kobe isn't a winner because he's had Shaq and Gasol, but Jordan is a winner even though he had Pippen. Kobe can't do math without a calculator, neither can Dwight Howard, but because his name's not Kobe Bryant it doesn't matter. He's just a biased idiot.

LMAO. Who said anything about Dwight Howard?

Kobe isn't a winner because Kobe isn't a winner. Proof is in the pudding. 2006.

Kobe is a great talent that has played on great teams. He's no different than McGrady except for longevity and circumstances.

[thejumpa]

If you think Kobe isn't a winner, then you are most likely young and didn't start watching basketball until 2006. Hell, even if you did start watching then, you couldn't make a statement like that. There is no need to be ignorant.

[LA_Showtime]

LMAO. Who said anything about Dwight Howard?

Kobe isn't a winner because Kobe isn't a winner. Proof is in the pudding. 2006.

Kobe is a great talent that has played on great teams. He's no different than McGrady except for longevity and circumstances.

So because of a couple of off years that means Kobe isn't a winner? Okay.

You're even dumber than the average troll.

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

So because of a couple of off years that means Kobe isn't a winner? Okay.

You're even dumber than the average troll.
lol, kobe is such a fcking loser this dude could only come up with one season out of 14 to back up his argument.

[Orlando Magic]

So because of a couple of off years that means Kobe isn't a winner? Okay.

You're even dumber than the average troll.

Off years? Those were his peak statistical years in terms of PPG and he played no differently than any other year.

What was so off about Kobe Bryant in those years in which his team sucked? Please tell me. What was the difference between him then, when Shaq won titles, and him when Pau and Andrew won a title?

What was SO different about Kobe that he had a couple of "off years?" Please, tell me. I'm dying to know.

Here, I'll answer it for you. You're full of shit. He was the same player then as he was before when Shaq won titles.

What was the difference? Oh, that's right. His team sucked. Now his team is good. The point I'm making is that he's not the reason his team sucked. He's also not the reason that his team is good now. If you don't see that, you've gone full retard.

He's not a winner. He's not a loser. He's a great individual talent. He's a T-Mac. He's a Wade. He's a Pierce. He's a Carter. He's an Iverson. He does not make teams better to the point that it's extremely noticeable. He is not a LeBron James, nor is he a Shaq. Just saying.

PS... Bynum + Gasol > Kobe

In fact, the only thing that separates Kobe from guys like Pierce, McGrady etc... is longevity and circumstance. Kobe, much to his credit, has been able to sustain his high level of individual play for an extremely long career. He's also had better teammates than any of those guys for most of their careers.

[LA_Showtime]

:lol It's not even about defending the Lakers or Kobe at this point. It's about calling out a guy who is obviously one of the dumbest, most ignorant posters on ISH (which is saying a lot).

[Big#50]

Kobe's only 31, MJ won 3 championships after that age. His body is not "wearing down"...in case you don't have eyes, he's clearly injured. He'll be healthy after resting this summer and has the team around him to win multiple championships. His accomplishments, as a whole, are going to be greater than Shaq. Most coaches/players/analysts already have him in their top 10 all-time list. Shaq had the potential to be the GOAT but his lazy-ass threw it away. Now he is washed-up and bouncing around from team to team trying to win a 5th ring.
Kobe got 3 rings because of Shaq.

[Orlando Magic]

:lol It's not even about defending the Lakers or Kobe at this point. It's about calling out a guy who is obviously one of the dumbest, most ignorant posters on ISH (which is saying a lot).

Nice retort. You win. dumb sack of shit, lol

[LA_Showtime]

Nice retort. You win. dumb sack of shit, lol

There's no point arguing with someone who has trouble lacing up his shoes in the morning. You're a biased moron and everyone knows it. Let's just leave it at that.

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

Nice retort. You win. dumb sack of shit, lol
humanity lost the moment you popped out the womb.

[Orlando Magic]

LA fans get a collectively bruised vag every time Kobe's name gets dropped without heaps of unwarranted praise. Lol.

[LA_Showtime]

LA fans get a collectively bruised vag every time Kobe's name gets dropped without heaps of unwarranted praise. Lol.

Playing the "Kobe fan" card. Clever.

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

LA fans get a collectively bruised vag every time Kobe's name gets dropped without heaps of unwarranted praise. Lol.

LA fans get a collectively bruised vag every time Kobe's name gets dropped without heaps of unwarranted praise. Lol.
http://www.7milesdown.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/kobe4rings.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_kPH0ZxIXBA8/SqkYJor8qoI/AAAAAAAABoM/5gHTnSsx4rM/s400/KOBE+UMAD.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SXSRlyR8bU

LeBron Says Kobe is the Best (http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?STORY_ID=8589)

DWYANE WADE: “KOBE BRYANT IS STILL THE BEST PLAYER IN THE GAME” (http://dimemag.com/2009/06/dwyane-wade-kobe-bryant-is-still-the-best-player-in-the-game/)

Barack Obama: “Kobe is the best basketball player in the world.” (http://thelakersnation.com/blog/2009/01/27/barack-obama-kobe-is-the-best-basketball-player-in-the-world/)

Kevin Durant: Kobe Bryant is Best Player in NBA (http://www.opposingviews.com/i/kevin-durant-kobe-bryant-is-best-player-in-nba)

Shaq Calls Kobe 'the Best' (http://www.pe.com/sports/basketball/lakers/stories/PE_Sports_Local_D_lakers_notes_21.43ce967.html)

NOW....
http://matrixforever.com/Shut.jpg

[Fatal9]

Michael Jordan is not a winner. What was he doing in the 80s? getting swept in first rounds with .500 teams. Kareem is not a winner. What was he doing in the late 70s? What was that loser Shaq doing getting swept by Duncan and Malone in the 90s? You can literally nitpick and call everybody not named Russell a loser in one way or another. EVERY player has needed talent to win. You are trying to argue Kobe is not a winner because he had freaking Kwame Brown, Smush Parker and Luke Walton as 3 of his 5 starters? By the way, in the '07 and '08 seasons BEFORE Gasol, the Lakers had a top 3 record in the West near midway through the season (26-13 in '07 and 26-11 in '08) but injuries dismantled the team.

Kobe doesn't make teammates better? What exactly was Smush Parker doing before and after him, or Brian Cook, or Kwame Brown? How are Ariza's shooting numbers this year when he is not getting spoonfed threes by Kobe like he did ALL of last year's playoffs? Or Gasol's efficiency pre and post Lakers? Hell, I'd even argue that Kobe made the game more easier for Shaq than Shaq did for him. If you are looking at who directly created more for the other, I can guarantee you in 90% of three-peat Laker games, you'll see more of Kobe dishing off to Shaq for a dunk than Shaq kicking it out to him for an open shot.

lmao at T-Mac at his peak being better than Kobe. I respect T-Mac who I think over time will become underrated because of the first round stigma, but even if you think they are comparable on offense (though Kobe is more skilled, better playmaker, more clutch, better scorer etc etc), Kobe separates himself on defense and intangibles alone.

[6thManOfTheYear]

How are Ariza's shooting numbers this year when he is not getting spoonfed threes by Kobe like he did ALL of last year's playoffs?.


everybody knows ariza is a role player designed to be set along side a legit scoring option.

when the rockets got kevin martin ariza's numbers got much better after the trade so you can credit his production to kobe when you haven't even watched the rockets this year.

[LA KB24]

lol at comparing Kobe to Tmac.

[Fatal9]

Ariza's jumpshot was awful before he joined the Lakers. He has even credited Kobe setting up shooting drills for him which helped improved his shot. He made 40 of 84 threes in the playoffs last year. He made four times as many threes in those playoffs alone than he did in his pre-Laker career. Anyone with a reasonable memory knows most of those looks were directly a result from Kobe's presence. I would be shocked if anyone, even the haters, think otherwise. I doubt Ariza would have even developed into a three-point shooting role player if it wasn't for Kobe/Lakers.

Despite what you think, the evidence of Kobe making his teammates better is overwhelming and to deny it you have to be incredibly foolish.

[6thManOfTheYear]

ariza said on an episode of rockets insider that he could shoot the 3 but teams just used him as a primary slasher.

not until he got to the lakers phil requested he work with the shooting coaches because he wanted to develop him to a better jumpshooter for what was required by the triangle offense. kobe gave him pointers but the real development came from the lakers organization into developing ariza's jumpshot.

[Desperado]

Kobe made everyone around him better. Haters watch and be dumbfounded by your stupidity.

Oddly enough, the guy who for years the media has said does not make his teammates better, has indeed done a much better job.
The guy named Kobe Bryant.


Let's take a look at his teammates:

Smush Parker = bounced around from team to team for a couple of years, never having averaged more than 6.2 points or shot better than 41.9%. The previous season he averaged 3 points per game. Yet he averaged 11.5 and 11.1 in two years with Kobe, having career best numbers in both shooting and three point shooting in each of those seasons. He left to the Miami Heat, where he saw his average drop by 6.3 points, his shooting percentage by 12.1% and his three point shooting by 11.5%. He is now in China playing for a Chinese team, in case you are wondering.


Chris Mihm was a 45% shooter on his career, with a career high 48.8% from the field. Not only did he have career highs in scoring average during each of his first two seasons with the Lakers but he also shot above 50% in each of those seasons prior to his injury.


Kwame Brown = had never shot above 49% in his career, yet he shot 52.6% and 59.1% as a Laker. He was traded mid-season last year to the Grizzlies and since that trade he has seen his field goal percentage drop from 50.3% to 35.3%, now he is in Detroit and is scrubbing floors.

The other big man in that trade,
Pau Gasol = has seen his field goal percentage raise from 50.1% in Memphis to a whopping 59% alongside of Kobe, as well as raising his scoring average by 2 per game. Gasol is a 52.1% career shooter who had never shot better than 53.8%, his first year with Kobe he shot 59% and 56% last season.



Didier Ilunga-Mbenga = has seen a similar rise. He shot 31.3% from the field before, and 39.1% in 16 games with Golden State. He has shot 45.5% in 14 games with the Lakers. When he came to the Lakers he was shooting 58.3%, upped his BPG (1.7) and his PPG (from 2.5 to 3.7), all doing it at below 10 mins per game of play.


Derek Fisher = Three years away from L.A. (with GS and UTAH) saw him shoot 39%, 41% and 38% from the floor. Since returning to the Lakers he has shot 44% and 42%. He upped his 3pt%, rpg, and apg.


Laron Profit = suffered a career ending injury in his first season as a Laker. In the 25 games prior to his injury though he shot 47.6%, his previous career high was 43.8% with two seasons under 40%.

Jumaine Jones = shot 39.1% from beyond the arc and 43.2% from the floor playing alongside Kobe, after shooting 34.4% from the floor and 29.5% from beyond the arc the season before. Since leaving he has never shot better than 40.5% from the floor or 34.3% from long range.

Chucky Atkins also had arguably his best season alongside of Kobe, scoring 13.6 per game while shooting 39% from beyond the arc. He hasn't matched either number since. He's now stacking up DNPs in Detroit.


Lamar Odom = has in the eyes of some struggled to co-exist with Kobe previous years. In many ways this is true, as both guys like to have the ball in their hands. In reality though he had shot under 43.9% in each of his three previous seasons before joining Bryant, and never above 46% in his career. He has shot 47.3%, 48.1%, 47%, 52%, 49% and 46% in six seasons with the Lakers. His scoring has dropped slightly, by a couple of points a game.


Trevor Ariza was a bench before being traded away by the Magic, In L.A. has was setting career-highs in points, 3pt%, rebounds, assists, and steals.


The only odd case is
Caron Butler = became an all-star after being traded from the Lakers, and some might use that as justification that Kobe held him back. The reality though is that Caron averaged a career high in both points per game and in field goal percentage in his season with Kobe. His field goal percentage jumped 6.5% from the season before and was 2.9% higher than his previous career best.

In the end, there is plenty of evidence to support Kobe making his teammates better.

[STATDunksOn]

Kobe isn't even the best player in the West. All he does is copy Jordan anyway.

[Desperado]

Kobe isn't even the best player in the West. All he does is copy Jordan anyway.


All Jordan did was copy Dr. J.

[Pha Q]

All Jordan did was copy Dr. J.


LOL all these people saying how KOBE copied JORDAN...well JORDAN copied the person who invented basketball...same with everybody else...who cares who copied who? Why does it fukkin matter to you n00bs? FORD was the first one to make a car...so TOYOTA, HONDA, copied to? Fukkin idiot mother ****ers

[STATDunksOn]

All Jordan did was copy Dr. J.
Except that he had other players that he took from. He didn't completely steal every idea from one person like your hero did. :oldlol:

[phoenix18]

LOL all these people saying how KOBE copied JORDAN...well JORDAN copied the person who invented basketball...same with everybody else...who cares who copied who? Why does it fukkin matter to you n00bs? FORD was the first one to make a car...so TOYOTA, HONDA, copied to? Fukkin idiot mother ****ers

Ford didnt make the first car. You fail at history.

[6thManOfTheYear]

LOL all these people saying how KOBE copied JORDAN...well JORDAN copied the person who invented basketball...same with everybody else...who cares who copied who? Why does it fukkin matter to you n00bs? FORD was the first one to make a car...so TOYOTA, HONDA, copied to? Fukkin idiot mother ****ers:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Batz]

Ford didnt make the first car. You fail at history.
But he has a point... :oldlol:

[Pha Q]

Ford didnt make the first car. You fail at history.


FORD MODEL T was the first car MASS produced....thats what I meant

[phoenix18]

But he has a point... :oldlol:
Actually he does not. The game evolved because people brought their own special flair to the game, not because they completely copied someone else.

[Desperado]

Except that he had other players that he took from. He didn't completely steal every idea from one person like your hero did. :oldlol:

:oldlol: @ Kobe having more rings then the Phoneix Suns have in 42 years of existence.

I mean Kobe has 19 Finals wins, the Phoneix Suns have 4 (as many rings as Kobe has). :roll:


Kobe Bean Bryant > Phoneix Suns franchisee existence.

[STATDunksOn]

:oldlol: @ Kobe having more rings then the Phoneix Suns have in 42 years of existence.

I mean Kobe has 19 Finals wins, the Phoneix Suns have 4 (as many rings as Kobe has). :roll:


Kobe Bean Bryant > Phoneix Suns franchisee existence.
He was carried by Gasol, Ariza and Shaq by all those wins. :roll: @ you.

[Pha Q]

He was carried by Gasol, Ariza and Shaq by all those wins. :roll: @ you.


WTF....so your saying that Gasol, Ariza, SHAQ...could of won it without KOBE? Please gimme a break.....dont get mad kuz KOBE FACIALIZED NASH...and NASH still has his balls in his face....YOU FAIL at life......you fukking peice of monkey shit

[Desperado]

He was carried by Gasol, Ariza and Shaq by all those wins. :roll: @ you.



http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/51/el1oo2.jpg




''Kobe is the best all around player I ever coached''
- Phil Jackson


GTFOH

[LA KB24]

Except that he had other players that he took from. He didn't completely steal every idea from one person like your hero did. :oldlol:

He was carried by Gasol, Ariza and Shaq by all those wins. :roll: @ you.

Lmao, just stop posting dude.

[Desperado]

WTF....so your saying that Gasol, Ariza, SHAQ...could of won it without KOBE? Please gimme a break.....dont get mad kuz KOBE FACIALIZED NASH...and NASH still has his balls in his face....YOU FAIL at life......you fukking peice of monkey shit

:cheers:


http://theassociation.blogs.com/the_association/images/23141787.jpg

http://theassociation.blogs.com/the_association/images/captpnu11304270535lakers_suns_basketball.jpg

[STATDunksOn]

Kobe's career was resurrected by Gasol. Remember when he missed the playoffs in his prime? :roll:

Ariza was the real Finals MVP.

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

these kobe arguments are so fcking comical.

[Desperado]

Kobe's career was resurrected by Gasol. Remember when he missed the playoffs in his prime? :roll:

Ariza was the real Finals MVP.


Gasol = 0-12 in the playoffs before playing with Kobe. :roll:




Yeah, Ariza's averaged 11ppg 6rpg 1.6 assists. He defiantly should have gotten Finals MVP. :rolleyes:

[LA KB24]

It's the same old sh1t from the Kobe haters too.

they can't come up with anything else.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Yes, Kobe does make his teammates better for the most part, regarding Kwame Brown, though....he really wasn't any better in LA than he was in Washington. In 03-04, he averaged 11/7 on 49% shooting. The difference was in LA for his first 2 seasons before his confidence was destroyed, he was able to play a role. And he never really had the talent or mentality to be anything more than a role player. So that's why he was more effective. In LA, he was a defender and rebounder.

As far as Odom? He didn't do much with the Lakers that he didn't early on. In his second season with the Clippers, he averaged 17/8/5. With Miami in 2004, he averaged 17/10/4. His best season with the Lakers was 2005-2006 when Phil Jackson made him the point forward and he averaged 15/9/5.5 while leading the team in assists and rebounds.

However, I can see how Kobe made Smush Parker better. He actually was an effective player with LA, but before and after, he hasn't been able to stay in the NBA.

Gasol's FG% did go up with LA, but he went from 1st to 2nd option. He was already this good with Memphis. In 2006, he averaged 20/9/5/2 on 50% shooting while leading Memphis to 49 wins. The next season, he averaged 21/10/3/2 on 54% shooting. Granted, Gasol is set up by Kobe quite a bit and the triangle fits him perfectly, but Gasol is an all-star player regardless.

Kobe makes his teammates better in general, but usually stars make role players better. For example, Lebron makes guys like West, Varejao and Gibson better, but he doesn't make Jamison better.

As far as Kobe's style of play. I think he played exactly how his team needed to in 2005-2006, 2006-2007, 2007-2008 and 2008-2009. I was disappointed that they couldn't seal the deal in 2006 and disappointed at what Kobe did in game 7, but that team overachieved regardless.

There's been a big difference in Kobe's leadership since he became the number 1 guy. It seems that his teammates like him a lot better now and it seems that he's been a lot more ready to lead a team than he was when he was younger and in his physical prime.

This season, I don't always think Kobe's done what's best for the team. He was great yesterday, he was very good in game 2(in the second half) and I liked what he did in game 5. Each of those games, he did what the Lakers needed for the win.

[MAC system]

This turned into a dumbass thread real quick. Durant is just praising a guy he just lost to, nothing more nothing less. This is who he grew up on, idolizing. Kobe's career, at this point, still is only 9-10. Not saying he can't move up, but at this point he's only the 9th or 10th greatest players all time. Let's not get ahead of ourselves.

[rfm767]

Kobe's only 31, MJ won 3 championships after that age. His body is not "wearing down"...in case you don't have eyes, he's clearly injured. He'll be healthy after resting this summer and has the team around him to win multiple championships. His accomplishments, as a whole, are going to be greater than Shaq. Most coaches/players/analysts already have him in their top 10 all-time list. Shaq had the potential to be the GOAT but his lazy-ass threw it away. Now he is washed-up and bouncing around from team to team trying to win a 5th ring.

Pretty much this.

[B-Easy]

Kobes still a top 5 player.. but hes fortunate to have the best frontcourt in the league for the past 3 years. And the best frontcourt when Shaq was in LA.

This couldve easily been a disaster situation, losing as a 1st seed to an 8th seed. Kobe had a similar series to Dirk vs GSW..shooting mostly jumpshots at 40%, but fortunately for him. Gasol was dominant all series, and Artest shut down the best scorer in the league.

Dirk never had that. As a matter of fact, Wade, Melo, Dirk are all sitting at home right now because theyre not fortunate to have that kind of help despite playing amazing in the playoffs.

Ill throw in a hypothetical, if Kobe missed the entire series against Utah..i bet the Lakers would still win that series. I expect the Lakers frontcourt to dominate the Jazz, and the Spurs/Suns as well. And Orlando, like they did last season.

[Himan12]

Kobe's not the best ever, Durant probably didn't mean for it to come out like that...but Kobe will go down as a greater player than Shaq when it's all said and done. Shaq's been irrelevant since 2006.

Kobe at 30 compared too Shaq at 30? Hmm dont know about you I would take shaq 10/10 times. Only way I would consider Kobe a greater player is if his prime lasted for another 6 years and if he won 3 more championships. (Shaq has 3 as the number one option and kobe has 1.)

Honestly going back to the 2008 finals against the Celtics, if you put a 29 year old Shaq with a SG equal to Pau gasol (in terms of impact on the court). I think lakers dominate that series.

BTW Kobe needed Bynum, Gasol, and Odom to win it all. Shaq had a young Kobe and good role players. Factor in that Kobe now has Artest to keep all the pressure off him. Its ridiculous how much talent he has around him. If he doesnt win that would be enough to take him out of the Duncan/Shaq debates as to who dominated the the last 11 years IMO.

I still think if u take the primes of both players...Shaq wins this pretty easily IMO.

[Himan12]

Kobes still a top 5 player.. but hes fortunate to have the best frontcourt in the league for the past 3 years. And the best frontcourt when Shaq was in LA.

This couldve easily been a disaster situation, losing as a 1st seed to an 8th seed. Kobe had a similar series to Dirk vs GSW..shooting mostly jumpshots at 40%, but fortunately for him. Gasol was dominant all series, and Artest shut down the best scorer in the league.

Dirk never had that. As a matter of fact, Wade, Melo, Dirk are all sitting at home right now because theyre not fortunate to have that kind of help despite playing amazing in the playoffs.

Ill throw in a hypothetical, if Kobe missed the entire series against Utah..i bet the Lakers would still win that series. I expect the Lakers frontcourt to dominate the Jazz, and the Spurs/Suns as well. And Orlando, like they did last season.


Agree. Comparing the amount of talent Duncan/Shaq/Jordan had around them, Kobe's team is ridiculous.

A top 5 power forward.
A top 5 center.
One of the Best if not the best defender in the league.
Best F/PF coming off the bench in the league.

Best coach in the history of the game.
The bench might be a little weak. But when the you have the quality he has at every position minus the point guard (fisher is average/below average) who needs quantity.

[Jacks3]

Kobe won the chip last with essentially Gasol/Odom and Ariza. That's solid, but :oldlol: at the clowns acting like he had a bunch of All-Stars around him. I guess they forget how horrible Fisher, Bynum, and the bench were. LMAO.

[Himan12]

Kobe won the chip last with essentially Gasol/Odom and Ariza. That's solid, but :oldlol: at the clowns acting like he had a bunch of All-Stars around him. I guess they forget how horrible Fisher, Bynum, and the bench were. LMAO.



Agree. Comparing the amount of talent Duncan/Shaq/Jordan had around them, Kobe's team is ridiculous.

A top 5 power forward.
A top 5 center.
One of the Best if not the best defender in the league.
Best F/PF coming off the bench in the league.

Best coach in the history of the game.
The bench might be a little weak. But when the you have the quality he has at every position minus the point guard (fisher is average/below average) who needs quantity.




Kobe at 30 compared too Shaq at 30? Hmm dont know about you I would take shaq 10/10 times. Only way I would consider Kobe a greater player is if his prime lasted for another 6 years and if he won 3 more championships. (Shaq has 3 as the number one option and kobe has 1.)

Honestly going back to the 2008 finals against the Celtics, if you put a 29 year old Shaq with a SG equal to Pau gasol (in terms of impact on the court). I think lakers dominate that series.

BTW Kobe needed Bynum, Gasol, and Odom to win it all. Shaq had a young Kobe and good role players. Factor in that Kobe now has Artest to keep all the pressure off him. Its ridiculous how much talent he has around him. If he doesnt win that would be enough to take him out of the Duncan/Shaq debates as to who dominated the the last 11 years IMO.

I still think if u take the primes of both players...Shaq wins this pretty easily IMO


Go back and read what I typed its pretty obvious you have difficulties reading. I was talking about this year's team.

I bolded the parts where I think you got lost. So looking at the first statement, did i say i am comparing the championship teams? No. Looking at the second bolded comment, its pretty obvious I am talking about RON ARTEST. Meaning I was talking about this year and comparing THIS year's team to the shaq lakers, Jordan bulls, and Duncan spurs.

Ok so now the third bolded statement, I once again mentioned Artest, so the bells should have been ringing, since I am talking about THIS year. In terms of talent Kobe has.


O BTW they did needed bynum, without bynum they dont the championship last year. Did you forgot how the celtics man handle them 2 years ago?

If I am wrong please highlight where I said/implied/hinted he had all stars around him for last year's championship run.

Seriously we should give this moron a hand...........:applause:

[NBASTATMAN]

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/51/el1oo2.jpg




''Kobe is the best all around player I ever coached''
- Phil Jackson


GTFOH



When did Phil Jackson say this? I can find where he says Kobe was a gunner and uncoachable.. But not what you have written...

[Allstar24]

Kobe at 30 compared too Shaq at 30? Hmm dont know about you I would take shaq 10/10 times. Only way I would consider Kobe a greater player is if his prime lasted for another 6 years and if he won 3 more championships. (Shaq has 3 as the number one option and kobe has 1.)

Honestly going back to the 2008 finals against the Celtics, if you put a 29 year old Shaq with a SG equal to Pau gasol (in terms of impact on the court). I think lakers dominate that series.

BTW Kobe needed Bynum, Gasol, and Odom to win it all. Shaq had a young Kobe and good role players. Factor in that Kobe now has Artest to keep all the pressure off him. Its ridiculous how much talent he has around him. If he doesnt win that would be enough to take him out of the Duncan/Shaq debates as to who dominated the the last 11 years IMO.

I still think if u take the primes of both players...Shaq wins this pretty easily IMO.
First of all, nobody would "dominate" the 2008 Celtics. You don't dominate a team with 3 HOFers, hungry for a championship, period. Shaq didn't win a single thing before playing with Kobe and the Lakers. It's amusing that people still resort to "Kobe needed so and so to win" as an argument. Shaq needed Kobe to win, he needed Wade to win. Has he won a championship without one of best SGs in the league yet? Everyone needs talent to win. If you think the Lakers of the early 2000s were not talented, you're delusional. If Kobe wins 2 more rings as the best player, he will surpass Shaq's achievements. Just the fact that Kobe's been recognized as one of the best players in the league for a decade is impressive. Where has Shaq been since 2006?

[rfoster24]

:roll: Shaq has 2 more finals MVPs and as many rings, a far more dominant prime and unlike Kobe, Shaq was an elite player from the moment he entered the league. Kobe wasn't a legit all-star until his 4th season and not truly elite until his 5th season and his body is already wearing down at 31.

Please. Finals MVPs dont mean anything. If Shaq didn't get those 3 finals MVPs hes a loser. lets see. Pacers: Rik Smits? Nets: I don't even know some maccaluch guy
Sixers: Mutumbo, that's probably the best defense and he still wasnt nothin. Its a series guarantee if there was a playoffs MVP Kobe wouldve taken one or more. if shaq had to go up against somethin like a chris webber in the finals, then it might be a different story.

[Himan12]

First of all, nobody would "dominate" the 2008 Celtics. You don't dominate a team with 3 HOFers, hungry for a championship, period. Shaq didn't win a single thing before playing with Kobe and the Lakers. It's amusing that people still resort to "Kobe needed so and so to win" as an argument. Shaq needed Kobe to win, he needed Wade to win. Has he won a championship without one of best SGs in the league yet? Everyone needs talent to win. If you think the Lakers of the early 2000s were not talented, you're delusional. If Kobe wins 2 more rings as the best player, he will surpass Shaq's achievements. Just the fact that Kobe's been recognized as one of the best players in the league for a decade is impressive. Where has Shaq been since 2006?


Easy there, I never said the early 2000s lakers were not talented, I just meant Shaq needed less help than Kobe did. Also shaq was 34 turning 35, 4 years ago, he was on a decline. I dont understand how people forget that Kobe is 7 years younger. Also for Kobe dominating for the last decade, Shaq dominated in the late 90s to mid 2000s, how is Kobe more impressive?


The early 2000s lakers would destroy 2008 celtics, a young Kobe would lock down allen. A young fisher would be able to give rondo some trouble. Pierce would have to carry the celts and I just dont see that happening. Last but not least, Shaq would dominate the Celtics. Garnett, baby, powe and perkins would not even slow him down. Perkins and Baby would both be in foul trouble and Garnett's skinny ass wouldnt be able to handle shaq.

[ACCBaller1403]

Please. Finals MVPs dont mean anything. If Shaq didn't get those 3 finals MVPs hes a loser. lets see. Pacers: Rik Smits? Nets: I don't even know some maccaluch guy
Sixers: Mutumbo, that's probably the best defense and he still wasnt nothin. Its a series guarantee if there was a playoffs MVP Kobe wouldve taken one or more. if shaq had to go up against somethin like a chris webber in the finals, then it might be a different story.

This is hilarious. Finals MVPs mean nothing? It's not Shaq's fault that they were matched up against the Pacers, Nets, and Sixers. Plus if you think Shaq was seeing less defensive coverage than Kobe then you're insane or 12. He was consistently getting double and triple teamed which opened up the floor for everyone else. Yet he still got ridiculous stats. You can only play against who is in front of you. And how in the hell would Shaq go up against Chris Webber in the finals? They were in the same conference.

ShaqAttack will murder your post if he sees it.

[LA KB24]

First of all, nobody would "dominate" the 2008 Celtics. You don't dominate a team with 3 HOFers, hungry for a championship, period. Shaq didn't win a single thing before playing with Kobe and the Lakers. It's amusing that people still resort to "Kobe needed so and so to win" as an argument. Shaq needed Kobe to win, he needed Wade to win. Has he won a championship without one of best SGs in the league yet? Everyone needs talent to win. If you think the Lakers of the early 2000s were not talented, you're delusional. If Kobe wins 2 more rings as the best player, he will surpass Shaq's achievements. Just the fact that Kobe's been recognized as one of the best players in the league for a decade is impressive. Where has Shaq been since 2006?qft :cheers:

[ShaqAttack3234]

Please. Finals MVPs dont mean anything. If Shaq didn't get those 3 finals MVPs hes a loser. lets see. Pacers: Rik Smits? Nets: I don't even know some maccaluch guy
Sixers: Mutumbo, that's probably the best defense and he still wasnt nothin. Its a series guarantee if there was a playoffs MVP Kobe wouldve taken one or more. if shaq had to go up against somethin like a chris webber in the finals, then it might be a different story.

:roll: :oldlol: :roll: Please tell me you're not serious. Kobe would not have any playoff MVP's from the 3peat. Shaq's numbers from the entire run were consistently better each year and so was his impact, Kobe admitted Shaq was the number 1 guy several times and Phil Jackson has also stated this.

So the DPOY(4-time winner), the second leading shot blocker of all time and an 8 time all-star is nothing? :roll: You lost all credibility there. In 2000, he wasn't guarded by Smits, though he did have to guard Smits who was a good offensive player. Dale Davis, who was an all-star that season, a double double guy and a good defender guarded Shaq with A LOT of help. Shaq was constantly doubled and tripled because Rice was trash in the playoffs(and not that good all season), Kobe was injured 2 games and only really had 1 good game and other than that, the Lakers started 2 guys who weren't scorers, AC Green and Ron Harper, who were each 36 and combined for an efficient 12 ppg.

[Jacks3]

How did this become a Kobe vs. Shaq thread?:oldlol:

[woods]

Durant does not have the perspective to know just how great Jordan was on BOTH ends of the floor. Jordan shot 50% from the field almost EVERY year. Kobe chucks at 45%.

[Kingwillball]

this thread is Retarded..Durant is a Baby and has no context of the history of the Game.. Kobe is Not the BEst Ever..not even close. He is not even the Best Laker Ever and he is not even the Current best in the NBA.

[Jacks3]

Kobe is a 46% shooter and has a career TS% of 56%, but who needs facts?

[zizozain]

It was almost 1989 when Durant was born. He only really remembers the primes of 2 players who are above Kobe all time and he was 10-11 when one of them peaked. And plenty of people are putting Kobe above Duncan(not that they should).

He was 3 when Bird and Magic were gone. Jordan peaked when he was like 2. He grew up on Kobe like most of the people here. Its not a shocking opinion from someone his age.
:lol

[34-24 Footwork]

:lol

This dude. Mr objective Kblaze :oldlol: