Are Michael Jordan and LeBron James the two Greatest players ever?

[PleezeBelieve]

Cause thats what it FEELS like when watching them play. It just feels so obvious. IMO, too much emphasis is placed on who's better between these two guys, when essentially we should look at them as standard-bearers within their own selves.

Do this make it easier quantifying each player's greatness without unnecessarily putting down the other?

[Papaya Petee]

Michael Jordan is a no brainer

LeBron James.... not so much

[skaterbasist]

You're saying Lebron is in the top-two of all time?

That's a slap in the face to all the legendary players. How about letting him finish his career (or atleast get past his prime) before making such statements.

[phazed out]

Lebron has 0 rings.

[imnew09]

awww Please Believe.
Lol.

[Harison]

Lol at OP :lol

[Knicksfever2010]

Cause thats what it FEELS like when watching them play. It just feels so obvious. IMO, too much emphasis is placed on who's better between these two guys, when essentially we should look at them as standard-bearers within their own selves.

Do this make it easier quantifying each player's greatness without unnecessarily putting down the other?


Great players win rings.

[madmax]

You can argue that Lebron is already the GOAT judging by his on-court production and the direct influence he has on his team results. Bulls even without MJ were contenders for a title back in 1994 and we all know how Cavs are doing when Bron is not suited up to play...the only thing Lebron is lacking right now is accomplishments

[phazed out]

LeTravelta has Zero Rings.

[chazzy]

You can argue that Lebron is already the GOAT

Stopped reading there :lol

He has the potential to go down as a top 5 player of all time. But let's not get carried away this early in his career

[PleezeBelieve]

You're saying Lebron is in the top-two of all time?

That's a slap in the face to all the legendary players. How about letting him finish his career (or atleast get past his prime) before making such statements.
Slap in the face?

You say, slap in the face?

DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THE LEVEL OF BASKETBALL LEBRON HAS PLAYED FOR THE LAST THREE SEASONS?

DO YOU NOT CARE OR YOU TRYING TO ACT IMMUNE TO IT?

SLAP IN THE FACE???

[Pursuer]

Is Pleezebelieve one of the two biggest trolls ever?

[imnew09]

Is Pleezebelieve one of the two biggest trolls ever?
By next season, hes gonna compare Kevin Durant to Michael jordan.

[PleezeBelieve]

It amazes me how little LeBron's greatness is appreciated by his own peer-group of NBA fans. I'm talking the fans that are around his age who also didnt see a prime Jordan play. But at the same time, they're the first one's to rail on about how its a 'slap in the face' to compare them.

Hilarious.

[EllisGW]

Great players win rings.

not true

stockton, malone, miller, iverson


why people soooo stupid on these boards?

[TheGreatDeraj]

Slap in the face?

You say, slap in the face?

DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THE LEVEL OF BASKETBALL LEBRON HAS PLAYED FOR THE LAST THREE SEASONS?

DO YOU NOT CARE OR YOU TRYING TO ACT IMMUNE TO IT?

SLAP IN THE FACE???

Oh my god Lebron homos are so obsessed with Individual statistical accomplishments.

He's a great player but has a loooooooooonnnnngggg way to go to be up with Jordan, Bird, Kareem, Russel and even Shaq.

[Pursuer]

It amazes me how little LeBron's greatness is appreciated by his own peer-group of NBA fans. I'm talking the fans that are around his age who also didnt see a prime Jordan play. But at the same time, they're the first one's to rail on about how its a 'slap in the face' to compare them.

Hilarious.


Well you can amazed or whatever, but it doesn't matter. Because all of the "old" guys say the same thing.

[EllisGW]

if lebron wins 4 rings or more there is great chance he will be considered goat.

[EllisGW]

Oh my god Lebron homos are so obsessed with Individual statistical accomplishments.

He's a great player but has a loooooooooonnnnngggg way to go to be up with Jordan, Bird, Kareem, Russel and even Shaq.

bird said lebron was better lol

[xcesswee]

Slap in the face?

You say, slap in the face?

DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THE LEVEL OF BASKETBALL LEBRON HAS PLAYED FOR THE LAST THREE SEASONS?

DO YOU NOT CARE OR YOU TRYING TO ACT IMMUNE TO IT?

SLAP IN THE FACE???

Don't be mad.:oldlol:

[Harison]

bird said lebron was better lol
Bird also said Jordan is GOD, neither statement is true :lol

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

i love how idiots discredit kobe for winning chips with shaq...but lebron is already ranked ahead of shaq with zero rings.

[TheGreatDeraj]

bird said lebron was better lol

Even if he did say that, that doesn't mean anything.

[EllisGW]

Bird also said Jordan is GOD, neither statement is true :lol

jordan is god of basketball and bird is right. I guess some random white guy knows more about larry birds game than himself.

[TheGreatDeraj]

jordan is god of basketball and bird is right. I guess some random white guy knows more about larry birds game than himself.

A racist troll how original. Is this the Lebron version of Cantstop?

Where did Bird say Lebron is better? All i got from google is Larry Bird saying Lebron has the possibilty to be the GOAT. Which he does, no one is denying the possibility.

His defense, footwork, post game, midrange game leaves a lot to be desired. Also he needs to cut down his reliance on holding the ball for 20 seconds every possession

[ThemBombs]

once LeBron finishes his career, absolutely. as of now? nope.

[EllisGW]

Even if he did say that, that doesn't mean anything.

larry bird know his game better than anyone else so i think means everything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaSfliFOfuo

[PleezeBelieve]

i love how idiots discredit kobe for winning chips with shaq...but lebron is already ranked ahead of shaq with zero rings.
Shaq is unquestionably a top-5 player ever. But we're talking a different level, tho. Jordan was there. LeBron is currently there.

No knock on Shaq, tho. It's just that LeBron right now is marginally better than Shaq has ever been. And that's certainly no knock on Shaq.

[EllisGW]

once LeBron finishes his career, absolutely. as of now? nope.


true

[EllisGW]

Shaq is unquestionably a top-5 player ever. But we're talking a different level, tho. Jordan was there. LeBron is currently there.

No knock on Shaq, tho. It's just that LeBron right now is marginally better than Shaq has ever been. And that's certainly no knock on Shaq.


i agree but lebron needs rings. once he gets some rings than its all over but he does not have any.

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

i'll tell you this much...watching lebron this post season....it's just really hard not seeing the cavs making the finals...but we've said this before, eh?

[TheGreatDeraj]

larry bird know his game better than anyone else so i think means everything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaSfliFOfuo

And I was right. He did not say Lebron was better. He has the possibility to be the GOAT. He is not right now.

[PleezeBelieve]

i'll tell you this much...watching lebron this post season....it's just really hard not seeing the cavs making the finals...but we've said this before, eh?
And what does this have to do with LeBron's individual ranking?

Cmon man, get off the rings argument. It's wack. Jordan played with a HOF coach and teammate, breh.

[purple32gold]

Cause thats what it FEELS like when watching them play. It just feels so obvious. IMO, too much emphasis is placed on who's better between these two guys, when essentially we should look at them as standard-bearers within their own selves.

Do this make it easier quantifying each player's greatness without unnecessarily putting down the other?
do YOU not understand the level people like wilt, magic, larry, kareem, bill, ect. played at? lebron isnt even the greatest player (of all time) on his own team...what the hell. you give a title like that to someone who has 2 MVP's with no rings to show except for a brutal sweeping at the hands of timmy & co.

no he isn't. will this stop you from believing whatever it is that you believe? probably not...sort of bizarre

[EllisGW]

And I was right. He did not say Lebron was better. He has the possibility to be the GOAT. He is not right now.


why are you lying? he said probably

probably http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict/probably

[chazzy]

Shaq is unquestionably a top-5 player ever. But we're talking a different level, tho. Jordan was there. LeBron is currently there.

No knock on Shaq, tho. It's just that LeBron right now is marginally better than Shaq has ever been. And that's certainly no knock on Shaq.

LOL, Lebron is not yet better than prime Shaq.. sorry. Shaq had one of the most dominant peaks ever.

[EllisGW]

do YOU not understand the level people like wilt, magic, larry, kareem, bill, ect. played at? lebron isnt even the greatest player (of all time) on his own team...what the hell. you give a title like that to someone who has 2 MVP's with no rings to show except for a brutal sweeping at the hands of timmy & co.

no he isn't. will this stop you from believing whatever it is that you believe? probably not...sort of bizarre

obviously shaq is 38 and lebron is 25 of course he is going to have more career accomplishments. How stupid are you?

[bdreason]

How many top 10 players of all time have ZERO rings?

You can be a great player without winning rings.... but you can't be a legend.

[RazorBaLade]

not true

stockton, malone, miller, iverson


why people soooo stupid on these boards?

no one is saing those guys are even t10

[GiveItToBurrito]

MJ definitely, Lebron not yet. Other than possibly Shaq, Lebron's the best since MJ, but I wouldn't say he's number two until he puts up the same numbers he's had recently for another two or three years and has won at least one championship. I do think that, when all is said and done, Lebron will be considered MJ's equal or at least a close second.

[guy]

If you take career accomplishments i.e. rings out of the equation, which is kind of stupid to hold against Lebron in this comparison since he's only been in the league for 7 years, its not really that ridiculous to say. I think the OP is basing this strictly on on-court production/impact, i.e. from just watching them play.

I haven't seen enough of Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Bird, and Magic to say that I can make an opinion on them that doesn't have any flaws (although I do all the time because I've done my research and this is a message board so I'm free to do that). But from what I've seen enough of which is about the last 20 years, at the very least, Lebron is the 4th best player I've ever seen. Jordan's at the top, and Shaq and Hakeem are arguably ahead of Lebron, key word being ARGUABLY, cause Lebron could very well be ahead of those guys IMO as well. I'm sure the rest of these playoffs, will give me a better idea. And I'm strictly talking about peak/prime play. Whatever he does this year I still probably wouldn't rank him ahead of either of those guys on a GOAT list, which takes everything into account. He just hasn't been around long enough.

[TheGreatDeraj]

why are you lying? he said probably

probably http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict/probably

Who is lying? YOU said he IS.


bird said lebron was better lol

I said possibility. Probably is a possibility, not a guarantee. Maybe you should read the definition dumb ass.

[rfm767]

Jordan: yes
LBJ: no

[EllisGW]

Who is lying? YOU said he IS.



I said possibility. Probably is a possibility, not a guarantee. Maybe you should read the definition dumb ass.

you lied because bird said probably. you said that he said possibility. Also possibility and probably mean 2 different things.

[6thManOfTheYear]

michael jordan was a pretty decent player

[guy]

i love how idiots discredit kobe for winning chips with shaq...but lebron is already ranked ahead of shaq with zero rings.

I think he's talking about prime/peak, taking accomplishments out of the equation, which is stupid to do anyway. It has nothing to do with rings. IMO Lebron these past 2 years has been better then Kobe has ever been.

[Juges8932]

Yes.

[PleezeBelieve]

If you take career accomplishments i.e. rings out of the equation, which is kind of stupid to hold against Lebron in this comparison since he's only been in the league for 7 years, its not really that ridiculous to say. I think the OP is basing this strictly on on-court production/impact, i.e. from just watching them play.

I haven't seen enough of Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Bird, and Magic to say that I can make an opinion on them that doesn't have any flaws (although I do all the time because I've done my research and this is a message board so I'm free to do that). But from what I've seen enough of which is about the last 20 years, at the very least, Lebron is the 4th best player I've ever seen. Jordan's at the top, and Shaq and Hakeem are arguably ahead of Lebron, key word being ARGUABLY, cause Lebron could very well be ahead of those guys IMO as well. I'm sure the rest of these playoffs, will give me a better idea. And I'm strictly talking about peak/prime play. Whatever he does this year I still probably wouldn't rank him ahead of either of those guys on a GOAT list, which takes everything into account. He just hasn't been around long enough.
Great post, although I got LeBron ahead of Shaq and Hakeem.

[tommy3]

I'd love to taste Lebron's nuts mmmm

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

And what does this have to do with LeBron's individual ranking?

Cmon man, get off the rings argument. It's wack. Jordan played with a HOF coach and teammate, breh.
was just stating it's really hard not seeing lebron getting it done this year..

[TheGreatDeraj]

you lied because bird said probably. you said that he said possibility. Also possibility and probably mean 2 different things.

There are three possibilities here.

1. English isn't your first language.
2. You are an idiot.
3. You are just trolling

Either way let me explain it once again. You lied by saying Bird said Lebron was better than him. He DID NOT say that.

Possibility is a broad term. 99% is a possibility. If something has a 99% possibility, it PROBABLY will happen, but it is still a POSSIBILITY.

You are a ****ing waste of time. Yes mad.

[Kingwillball]

I HATE these type of threads..This is one of the reasons there is so many Lebron Haters. Let the Kid's Career pan out a little more before making this type of thread. Yes he is Great but right now he has a ways to go and things to accomplish(Championships) before being put in the same breath as Jordan.

[Heilige]

I think he's talking about prime/peak, taking accomplishments out of the equation, which is stupid to do anyway. It has nothing to do with rings. IMO Lebron these past 2 years has been better then Kobe has ever been.


How has Lebron been better than Kobe has ever been these past two years?

[PleezeBelieve]

I HATE these type of threads..This is one of the reasons there is so many Lebron Haters. Let the Kid's Career pan out a little more before making this type of thread. Yes he is Great but right now he has a ways to go and things to accomplish(Championships) before being put in the same breath as Jordan.
You have no idea what you're talking about. Stay in your lane.

[magnax1]

Lebron and Wade are about 30 and 31 greatest ever.

[Kellogs4toniee]

There are three possibilities here.

1. English isn't your first language.
2. You are an idiot.
3. You are just trolling

Either way let me explain it once again. You lied by saying Bird said Lebron was better than him. He DID NOT say that.

Possibility is a broad term. 99% is a possibility. If something has a 99% possibility, it PROBABLY will happen, but it is still a POSSIBILITY.

You are a ****ing waste of time. Yes mad.


This. Been reading this thread and I've got to say Ellis you sound like your 12 years old. Stop trying to dig yourself out of your hole.

[Sakkreth]

U can't place james there yet, but wait him finish his career and that's not even arguable. The only question for me if he's going to be GOAT or he will be listed with jordan and argued often by dumbasses which one is true GOAT when actualy none will know. Yeah jordan was no brainer, but he's still goat, time will tell if james steals it from him or not.

[ZenMaster]

Who cares how good he is as an individual player right now, let the guy finish his career and then talk about it.

And the game is not about being the best individual player, it's about contributing on teams that wins championships.

If you're more to individual accomplishments i suggest you go watch tennis or maybe some athletics, as the discussions make more sense there.

[SteveNashMVPcro]

Jordan=The Goat
LeBron-a top 30-40 player but will climb up till the end of his career

[branslowski]

LeBron is a f*cking beast...But not top 2 yet....I mean how does he just jump over Kareem or Wilt like that?...He's not even above Bird yet..

Although, it all depends on how you rank players...

Cause if im ranking Pure Basketball player skills and who would win in 1 on 1's then...

1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. LeBron
4. Bird
5. Oscar

[Batz]

Lol PB... :lol :lol

[branslowski]

Jordan=The Goat
LeBron-a top 30-40 player but will climb up till the end of his career

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

There is not 40, 30, or 20 players in NBA history thats better than LeBron..

[DukeDelonte13]

Jordan=The Goat
LeBron-a top 30-40 player but will climb up till the end of his career


i'd love for you to name 29 players better than Bron is :oldlol:

[SteveNashMVPcro]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

There is not 40, 30, or 20 players in NBA history thats better than LeBron.. individualy yes he is a top 5-10 player if you look from that perspective but if you count in rings there are a lot of players who are better

[jlauber]

I guess Russell's 11 rings don't mean as much today, as they did into 1980...when he was voted the greatest ever.

If Russell and Magic are already forgotten...then I wonder how long it will be before we start reading about how the players of say 2015-2020 are much better than an "old-timer" like Jordan? I can see it now...Jordan and Cousy were dinosaurs. Posters will be claiming that a girl's middle-school team would wipe out Jordan, Barkley, Olajuwon, Stockton, and Malone.

Obviously, by then, Russell, Lucas, Oscar, West and Wilt would be riding the bench in a pee-wee league...if they could even make the team.

[Simple Jack]

i love how idiots discredit kobe for winning chips with shaq...but lebron is already ranked ahead of shaq with zero rings.

A more decorated career doesn't mean a better player. Why do people equate the two?

Rings are extremely situational and overrated on this board/in basketball in general.

[Andrei89]

Wade > Lebron little indian kid


U mad?:lol :lol :lol

[Simple Jack]

Wade > Lebron little indian kid


U mad?:lol :lol :lol

You have 29 posts per day? :applause:

[Andrei89]

You have 29 posts per day? :applause:

Yes

does that bother u?

[ImaBigDawg]

not true

stockton, malone, miller, iverson


why people soooo stupid on these boards?
and where are these players considered on the all-time greats list?

[LA KB24]

LeHype isn't even in the top 5.

[Simple Jack]

Yes

does that bother u?

No, just verifies my thoughts.

[gts]

A more decorated career doesn't mean a better player. Why do people equate the two?

Rings are extremely situational and overrated on this board/in basketball in general.
rings are a players legacy in the the nba ..

without them they are just stat mongers, guys who played at a high level but never reched the top, the goal is to win rings it's not to be the best scorer ever the largest collector of of regular season accolades or the best athlete even...

the goal is to win rings, that's why they play 82 games, that's why there is a playoff system in place...

rings, with them they are champions, players who not only had the numbers but led teams to the promised land, without them they will never be looked at in the same light as the players who have them

[NBASTATMAN]

Cause thats what it FEELS like when watching them play. It just feels so obvious. IMO, too much emphasis is placed on who's better between these two guys, when essentially we should look at them as standard-bearers within their own selves.

Do this make it easier quantifying each player's greatness without unnecessarily putting down the other?

Lebron may reach that point in the future.. But I am still not sure if he is better than either Wade or Kobe... Sure he is more domiant but can he win the big games.. Like it or not both Kobe and Wade have won the big games... Some players never have the teammates to do it but others just never rise to the occasion.. Lebron has to rise to the occasion to be considered even a top ten player of all time... At this point he is playing great but he has to win TITLES...

[Andrei89]

No, just verifies my thoughts.

and what are your thoughts kiddo?

[Disaprine]

your love for lebron is inspiring. :roll:

[KingLeBronJames]

LeBron > Jordan, Magic and Bird. No joke. :bowdown:

[LA KB24]

LeBron > Jordan, Magic and Bird. No joke. :bowdown:
Kill yourself asap.

[thejumpa]

LeBron w/ 1 ring>>>>>>>Michael Jordan w/ 6

Don't believe me? Check his stats.

[Story Up]

Maybe production wise he is possibly the 3rd most productive player behind Wilt and Jordan possibly Oscar. Accomplishment wise he is no where near jordan, Kareem, Shaquille, Duncan, magic, bird, Kobe etc

he has yet to accomplish anything relevent that will approve him being over anyone in the top ten like hakeem, Moses, Kobe, Oscar, wilt, shaq, magic, bird, Kareem and Jordan.

[EastCaliChillin]

LeBron w/ 1 ring>>>>>>>Michael Jordan w/ 6

Don't believe me? Check his stats.
:oldlol: :oldlol:

You pray deep down at night that was true.

but EPIC FAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[LA KB24]

The King with no ring.

[Lebron23]

The King with no ring.


He's gonna win his first NBA Finals MVP this year. Both Jordan and Shaq were 28 yrs.old when they won the Bill Russell Finals MVP.

[Edgar Friendly]

6 Chips away and 4 more MVPs from matching Kareem. He will never have a 35/17/5 season tho. Kareem and Jordan are almost untouchable, even for LeBron. He has a chance to pass almost everyone else.

[EastCaliChillin]

6 Chips away and 4 more MVPs from matching Kareem. He will never have a 35/17/5 season tho. Kareem and Jordan are almost untouchable, even for LeBron. He has a chance to pass almost everyone else.
Damn please provide some proof. Because those stats look Mind-boggling fake


Edit. Looked it up.. WOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

NO F*CKING COMMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Lebron23]

Damn please provide some proof. Because those stats look Mind-boggling fake

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/abdulka01.html

1971-72 NBA Season

[imnew09]

He's gonna win his first NBA Finals MVP this year. Both Jordan and Shaq were 28 yrs.old when they won the Bill Russell Finals MVP.
Dude, fk, Lebron's nut hugger thinks they have a guarantee championship this year.

[EastCaliChillin]

Dude, fk, Lebron's nut hugger thinks they have a guarantee championship this year.
He knows.

How The refs have been officiating it is pretty much guaranteed unles Lebron has a Dirk bad choke job

[Underballer]

Crazed troll who occasionally makes good points

[YAWN]

Crazed troll who very rarely makes good points
fixed

[sekachu]

LeBron > Jordan, Magic and Bird. No joke. :bowdown:


dont say that as a lebron fan, not convincing, no joke, hahhaa

[dough]

Pleezebelieve is one of God's bad jokes.

[Abraham Lincoln]

http://i39.tinypic.com/25gvyo9.jpg

[PurpleChuck]

http://i39.tinypic.com/25gvyo9.jpg

+1

http://www.limelightagency.com/Stephen-Holland/images/400/chamberlain-ressell.jpg

[mtguy8787]

Rings =/= better individual player.

Rings are won by teams. You can have an OK player win lots of rings. That doesnt make the player great.

If you take a player with a certain skill level, and they remain at the same skill level, their team could go on to win a championship. If that team won 2, 3, 4, or 5 championships in a row, would this fact make that player any better as a player? No, of course not.

You could have the most skilled player of all time have a weaker supporting cast and coaching staff, and never win a championship. They would still be the most skilled player of all time.

I'll break it down mathematically.

With players being ranked in their skill level from 1-10, and taking the top 6 players and coach, you could have:


Coach -- 8
Best player - 8
Player 1 - 7
Player 2 - 7
Player 3 - 7
Player 4 - 6
Player 5 - 6

That's a total of 49


Then you could have:

Coach - 7
Best Player - 10
Player 1 - 6
Player 2 - 6
Player 3 - 5
Player 4 - 5
Player 5 - 5

That's a total of 44

So if the better team beat this team every time in the championship race, does this mean the 8 player is better than the 10? Of course not.


Individual skill determines individual skill. Not rings.


If you think that a player has to have rings to be great, then youre not very intelligent.

[Amil23]

PB is the best troll on here.:rockon: He can turn all your lives upside down with just a thread like this.:lol Good work

[inclinerator]

if everyone started with 0 rings then yes

[Take Your Lumps]

lemme telya sumn Ernie: LEBRONNNN JAYM DA GREATES PLAYA TA EVA PLAY DA GAYME

[RazorBaLade]

Rings =/= better individual player.

Rings are won by teams. You can have an OK player win lots of rings. That doesnt make the player great.

If you take a player with a certain skill level, and they remain at the same skill level, their team could go on to win a championship. If that team won 2, 3, 4, or 5 championships in a row, would this fact make that player any better as a player? No, of course not.

You could have the most skilled player of all time have a weaker supporting cast and coaching staff, and never win a championship. They would still be the most skilled player of all time.

I'll break it down mathematically.

With players being ranked in their skill level from 1-10, and taking the top 6 players and coach, you could have:


Coach -- 8
Best player - 8
Player 1 - 7
Player 2 - 7
Player 3 - 7
Player 4 - 6
Player 5 - 6

That's a total of 49


Then you could have:

Coach - 7
Best Player - 10
Player 1 - 6
Player 2 - 6
Player 3 - 5
Player 4 - 5
Player 5 - 5

That's a total of 44

So if the better team beat this team every time in the championship race, does this mean the 8 player is better than the 10? Of course not.


Individual skill determines individual skill. Not rings.


If you think that a player has to have rings to be great, then youre not very intelligent.

Why use all these random numbers out of your ass. You can't tell me that Player 2 can get a 9 and Player 2 on the other team can get a 8/10 and actually believe that P2 on team one is gonna outplay him every game, thats not basketball. Look at it this way:

It is a combination of stats AND rings. Stats can only take you so far, to about top 20 at best, Rings can only take you so far. You need BOTH at a high level to be great. Sure Wilt only needed 3 rings or however much he has to be considered great because his stats made up for it. Jordan had the stats and the rings. Larry had the stats and the rings. And you know what, when you have the stats and you're the face of your franchise, it's partly your fault for not having a contending team. Kobe had freaking Kwame brown and guess what, they made moves because Kobe was NOT happy with JUST stats. Cavs this year made moves for Jamison and Shaq because Lebron wants a ring plain and simple. When Kobe or Lebron ask, their team listens. Chicago listened to Jordan.

That's why a person SHOULD be to blame if he's unable to place him in a winning position, if his stats are like 40-10-10 for 5 seasons in a row then maybe he gets in top 15 or argued for t10 but those stats are unrealistic, a person with just great stats is probably not even gonna go down as t20. But if you have 20-10 or so stats with 4? rings like Duncan then you can get in top 15 as well or even be argued top 10 by some. It's a simple concept with concrete logic that nobody understands for some reason. Stats AND rings.

[jjayfive]

individual accomplishments, lebron is gonna go down as one of the greatest. He's probably the most physically gifted basketball player the league has ever seen.. but he is not a top two at this point...

[Simple Jack]

rings are a players legacy in the the nba ..

without them they are just stat mongers, guys who played at a high level but never reched the top, the goal is to win rings it's not to be the best scorer ever the largest collector of of regular season accolades or the best athlete even...

the goal is to win rings, that's why they play 82 games, that's why there is a playoff system in place...

rings, with them they are champions, players who not only had the numbers but led teams to the promised land, without them they will never be looked at in the same light as the players who have them

As a player, sure, the goal is to win rings but we, as fans, don't rate players solely based on that.

My point stands; just because someone has more rings, it doesn't mean he is a better player. Care to debate this?

[Simple Jack]

Why use all these random numbers out of your ass. You can't tell me that Player 2 can get a 9 and Player 2 on the other team can get a 8/10 and actually believe that P2 on team one is gonna outplay him every game, thats not basketball. Look at it this way:

It is a combination of stats AND rings. Stats can only take you so far, to about top 20 at best, Rings can only take you so far. You need BOTH at a high level to be great. Sure Wilt only needed 3 rings or however much he has to be considered great because his stats made up for it. Jordan had the stats and the rings. Larry had the stats and the rings. And you know what, when you have the stats and you're the face of your franchise, it's partly your fault for not having a contending team. Kobe had freaking Kwame brown and guess what, they made moves because Kobe was NOT happy with JUST stats. Cavs this year made moves for Jamison and Shaq because Lebron wants a ring plain and simple. When Kobe or Lebron ask, their team listens. Chicago listened to Jordan.

That's why a person SHOULD be to blame if he's unable to place him in a winning position, if his stats are like 40-10-10 for 5 seasons in a row then maybe he gets in top 15 or argued for t10 but those stats are unrealistic, a person with just great stats is probably not even gonna go down as t20. But if you have 20-10 or so stats with 4? rings like Duncan then you can get in top 15 as well or even be argued top 10 by some. It's a simple concept with concrete logic that nobody understands for some reason. Stats AND rings.


You are confusing 2 very different things. Ranking players on an all-time list and rankings players as individuals.

Kevin Garnett is a great example. He had one of his best seasons in 04, won MVP, but failed to win a ring. Few years later, he was put in a great position on the celtics to win, despite not being NEARLY as good as he was 4 years prior. Was KG better in 08 than 04? No. He was a better individual player in 04 but his career is considered better because of the chip in 08.

[Simple Jack]

and what are your thoughts kiddo?

Should be pretty clear, my man.

[RazorBaLade]

You are confusing 2 very different things. Ranking players on an all-time list and rankings players as individuals.

Kevin Garnett is a great example. He had one of his best seasons in 04, won MVP, but failed to win a ring. Few years later, he was put in a great position on the celtics to win, despite not being NEARLY as good as he was 4 years prior. Was KG better in 08 than 04? No. He was a better individual player in 04 but his career is considered better because of the chip in 08.

Yeah I'm obviously talking about rankings, since when you say "lebron and jordan are the 2 best players ever" it means rankings.

[Papaya Petee]

He's gonna win his first NBA Finals MVP this year. Both Jordan and Shaq were 28 yrs.old when they won the Bill Russell Finals MVP.

You said the same thing last year..... maybe you should wait before you say something like that, because so far LeBron's record in the finals is 0-4.

[Simple Jack]

Yeah I'm obviously talking about rankings, since when you say "lebron and jordan are the 2 best players ever" it means rankings.

Because ranking on an all-time list isn't synonymous with how good of an individual player you are.

[Disaprine]

http://i39.tinypic.com/25gvyo9.jpg
+1 :applause:

[ginobli2311]

You are confusing 2 very different things. Ranking players on an all-time list and rankings players as individuals.

Kevin Garnett is a great example. He had one of his best seasons in 04, won MVP, but failed to win a ring. Few years later, he was put in a great position on the celtics to win, despite not being NEARLY as good as he was 4 years prior. Was KG better in 08 than 04? No. He was a better individual player in 04 but his career is considered better because of the chip in 08.

Great post. I think what most people are confusing is that there is a difference between comparing players and careers. Some players have great circumstances to win a lot of rings....some do not. For example, if you switched Kobe and Iverson for their entire careers. Ivo would have at least 3 rings and Kobe would definitely have 0. Is Kobe a better player? Of course he was, but under the wrong circumstances, he could have played his entire career without winning a ring. You have to take circumstances into account.

KG never had a legit shot to win a title in Minnesota. Does that make him a worse player than some others with better circumstances? No...you can only work with what you are given. For KG....he got sprewell and cassel and average coaching. For Duncan, he Robinson, paker, and ginobili and great coaching. I believe Duncan is the better player overall, but its a lot closer than most think. Circumstances matter, you can't just say 4 rings to 1 ring without looking at what kind of teams players played for.

[guy]

Great post. I think what most people are confusing is that there is a difference between comparing players and careers. Some players have great circumstances to win a lot of rings....some do not. For example, if you switched Kobe and Iverson for their entire careers. Ivo would have at least 3 rings and Kobe would definitely have 0. Is Kobe a better player? Of course he was, but under the wrong circumstances, he could have played his entire career without winning a ring. You have to take circumstances into account.

KG never had a legit shot to win a title in Minnesota. Does that make him a worse player than some others with better circumstances? No...you can only work with what you are given. For KG....he got sprewell and cassel and average coaching. For Duncan, he Robinson, paker, and ginobili and great coaching. I believe Duncan is the better player overall, but its a lot closer than most think. Circumstances matter, you can't just say 4 rings to 1 ring without looking at what kind of teams players played for.

I do agree with most of this. However, something we need to consider is that its no coincidence that most players with better "careers" as in rings, are usually better players. Example: Duncan is better then KG, and he won more championships. He had the better teams, but alot of that could have to do with it being easier to find the right personnel to surround him with, and as a result of their success, they kept those successful teams together, instead of KG's teams where they were constantly trying to find the right mix. Don't get me wrong, I'm not excusing Minny's horrible management, but I think part of the reason some players are more successful then others and as a result are considered greater players is cause there bigger winners and easier to build around.

[Simple Jack]

Great post. I think what most people are confusing is that there is a difference between comparing players and careers. Some players have great circumstances to win a lot of rings....some do not. For example, if you switched Kobe and Iverson for their entire careers. Ivo would have at least 3 rings and Kobe would definitely have 0. Is Kobe a better player? Of course he was, but under the wrong circumstances, he could have played his entire career without winning a ring. You have to take circumstances into account.

KG never had a legit shot to win a title in Minnesota. Does that make him a worse player than some others with better circumstances? No...you can only work with what you are given. For KG....he got sprewell and cassel and average coaching. For Duncan, he Robinson, paker, and ginobili and great coaching. I believe Duncan is the better player overall, but its a lot closer than most think. Circumstances matter, you can't just say 4 rings to 1 ring without looking at what kind of teams players played for.

Exactly. It must be taken in context.

[Simple Jack]

I do agree with most of this. However, something we need to consider is that its no coincidence that most players with better "careers" as in rings, are usually better players. Example: Duncan is better then KG, and he won more championships. He had the better teams, but alot of that could have to do with it being easier to find the right personnel to surround him with, and as a result of their success, they kept those successful teams together, instead of KG's teams where they were constantly trying to find the right mix. Don't get me wrong, I'm not excusing Minny's horrible management, but I think part of the reason some players are more successful then others and as a result are considered greater players is cause there bigger winners and easier to build around.

Because they are given the opportunity. We weren't able to see KG's finals performances because they didn't exist. If he had a better team earlier in his career and was making the finals, dropping 35 15 5 games, we may have a different opinion of Garnett.

The point is, a players career doesn't always paint a clear picture in telling how good of an individual player he was.

[RazorBaLade]

Because ranking on an all-time list isn't synonymous with how good of an individual player you are.

So Lebron can be lower than Duncan on the all time who is the best player list, but he can be better than Duncan? No, I disagree. The all time list is the only list there is.

[RazorBaLade]

Great post. I think what most people are confusing is that there is a difference between comparing players and careers. Some players have great circumstances to win a lot of rings....some do not. For example, if you switched Kobe and Iverson for their entire careers. Ivo would have at least 3 rings and Kobe would definitely have 0. Is Kobe a better player? Of course he was, but under the wrong circumstances, he could have played his entire career without winning a ring. You have to take circumstances into account.

KG never had a legit shot to win a title in Minnesota. Does that make him a worse player than some others with better circumstances? No...you can only work with what you are given. For KG....he got sprewell and cassel and average coaching. For Duncan, he Robinson, paker, and ginobili and great coaching. I believe Duncan is the better player overall, but its a lot closer than most think. Circumstances matter, you can't just say 4 rings to 1 ring without looking at what kind of teams players played for.

you create your circumstances. When iverson was in kobes position (altho a little better of course) he didnt ask for shit, he was getting money, Kobe was infuriated after every playoff loss and SAID that if you cant bring me a contender I will leave to a team that will. NOT a lot of people in the NBA have/will/can say that, PERIOD.

[RazorBaLade]

Because they are given the opportunity. We weren't able to see KG's finals performances because they didn't exist. If he had a better team earlier in his career and was making the finals, dropping 35 15 5 games, we may have a different opinion of Garnett.

The point is, a players career doesn't always paint a clear picture in telling how good of an individual player he was.

Garnett could have been traded any time he asked for it. He didn't sit there sulking saying TRADE ME I want a championship, he got money and was pretty happy but when he started wanting to win a championship seriously he asked for a trade and has been contending since. It's easy.

[niko]

I love Lebron as a player. I think he is a no brainer best player in the league right now, i really do. But 2nd best all time? WHen he hasn't shown the ability to win a title? WHen he's had as many bad big moments as good?

He has more than half of his career left, has won NO titles yet, how the **** can we crown him 2nd best all time?

[G.O.A.T]

You can argue that Lebron is already the GOAT judging by his on-court production and the direct influence he has on his team results.

Only if you don't know very much about Basketball not played in the last five years.

[B-Ball PharmD]

The idea that LBJ can be even be considered in the top 10 players of all time is just ridiculous. Yes, he may be one of the top TALENTS of all time, and has the POTENTIAL to be in the GOAT discussion, but he must achieve much more before his career ends (which is very likely.) In response to those earlier who were saying it depends on the teammates/circumstances, that is true to a certain extent, but generally those worthy of GOAT discussion find a way to get it done regardless. There are many great players who have the talent and circumstance to get it done, but they just can't quite get over the hump. They are not quite on the legendary tier (Ewing, Dirk, Reggie Miller, Karl Malone, Barkley, Drexler, Stockton, etc etc etc.) LBJ's teams have had the talent with the records they achieve and where they go in the playoffs, but they are not over the hump yet. I am sure the pieces will come together before his career is over, but to say he can be considered second best in history at this point is absurd. Plenty of players have consistently put up big numbers throughout the history of the game, but what sets them apart is if they have something to show for it.

[PurpleChuck]

Jordan = GOAT

James = Close, but not close enough

[jdem]

James is not even the best current NBA player. This thread is ridiculous. I'd like to see LeBron play during the Jordan era, where his game plan of "charge the lane with a travel and get the super star foul call every time" wouldn't have worked.

If Stern leaves during LeBron's tenure and the new commissioner brings back "real" basketball... LeBron is done.

[Fallguy20]

MJ is argueable, LeBron not yet has the resume for us to decide.

[ILLsmak]

That's a good statement, the person who said that winning is somewhat circumstantial; however, there are certain players who everyone knows will win eventually no matter what.

MJ was one of those guys. Shaq was one of those guys. And LeBron is one of those guys. I can't really comment on the other legends because that's way before my time.

It's assumed that Bird and Magic and Kareem were all those type of players. I am in no position to disagree.

But to say LeBron doesn't have a GOAT argument right now, you are just being contradictory. You should see the writing on the wall. I'd be willing to bet anyone anything that Bron will get a ring in his career. It's no question. He probably will even be involved in a Dynasty. He's so good that he can go to a team like NY and they'd actually be considered a contender.

We definitely haven't seen a player like this since MJ... and one can argue Bron can do more things than MJ. Especially considered the way the game is called so that traditional centers can't be 30 ppg scorers anymore, I can't imagine any player I'd pick over LeBron right now to start my team.

Gimme some decent defensive minded shooters and a couple of hustle big men and LeBron... that's a 60 win team.

-Smak

[Roundball_Rock]

PB, post this thread in 5 years or so. By then Lebron very likely will be elevated to GOAT by the media. Remember, Jordan was elevated after "only" 3 rings and 3 MVP's in 93'. Compare that to Kareem's 6 rings and 6 MVP's, Russell's 11 rings and 5 MVP's, Wilt's 5 MVP's and 2 championships, Magic's 5 titles and 3 MVP's and Bird having 3 of each. Yet Jordan was the "clear GOAT" according to the media in 1993? Well, the same forces arrayed behind MJ then are now behind Lebron. We are all witnesses. :cheers:

[Fatal9]

PB, post this thread in 5 years or so. By then Lebron very likely will be elevated to GOAT by the media. Remember, Jordan was elevated after "only" 3 rings and 3 MVP's in 93'. Compare that to Kareem's 6 rings and 6 MVP's, Russell's 11 rings and 5 MVP's, Wilt's 5 MVP's and 2 championships, Magic's 5 titles and 3 MVP's and Bird having 3 of each. Yet Jordan was the "clear GOAT" according to the media in 1993? Well, the same forces arrayed behind MJ then are now behind Lebron. We are all witnesses. :cheers:
Chicago writers who covered MJ are already calling Lebron better than him....

http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=376028 < few days ago from the Chicago Daily Herald

[jdem]

PB, post this thread in 5 years or so. By then Lebron very likely will be elevated to GOAT by the media. Remember, Jordan was elevated after "only" 3 rings and 3 MVP's in 93'. Compare that to Kareem's 6 rings and 6 MVP's, Russell's 11 rings and 5 MVP's, Wilt's 5 MVP's and 2 championships, Magic's 5 titles and 3 MVP's and Bird having 3 of each. Yet Jordan was the "clear GOAT" according to the media in 1993? Well, the same forces arrayed behind MJ then are now behind Lebron. We are all witnesses. :cheers:

I couldn't disagree more. I was a fan when Jordan was playing, and even when Magic/Kareem were first drafted. I was a fan when all a flagrant foul got you was the ability to pick your free throw shooter... no fines/ejections/suspensions. I was a fan when REAL basketball was played. The only thing I see from LeBron is his ability to use his physical attributes to exploit a soft, floppy, crybaby league. It is an insult to compare him to the players you mentioned.

[juju151111]

PB, post this thread in 5 years or so. By then Lebron very likely will be elevated to GOAT by the media. Remember, Jordan was elevated after "only" 3 rings and 3 MVP's in 93'. Compare that to Kareem's 6 rings and 6 MVP's, Russell's 11 rings and 5 MVP's, Wilt's 5 MVP's and 2 championships, Magic's 5 titles and 3 MVP's and Bird having 3 of each. Yet Jordan was the "clear GOAT" according to the media in 1993? Well, the same forces arrayed behind MJ then are now behind Lebron. We are all witnesses. :cheers:
LMAO unless LJ can win 3-5 rings while posting better stats i don't see how thats possible. LMAo at you acting like winning 3 in a row while having the best postseason/finals stats(91-93) wouldn't make him rise to #1. 96-98 lowered him in my opinion.

[jlauber]

Chicago writers who covered MJ are already calling Lebron better than him....

http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=376028 < few days ago from the Chicago Daily Herald

Earlier in this thread I made the comment that within the next few years, the next generation will consider Jordan the same way that this generation has ranked Cousy...a vastly inferior player that could not play in the high schools of the newer generations.

[juju151111]

Chicago writers who covered MJ are already calling Lebron better than him....

http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=376028 < few days ago from the Chicago Daily Herald
They were also a few reporters saying the same about Kobe too. LMao call me when the majority says so.

[Roundball_Rock]

I couldn't disagree more. I was a fan when Jordan was playing, and even when Magic/Kareem were first drafted. I was a fan when all a flagrant foul got you was the ability to pick your free throw shooter... no fines/ejections/suspensions. I was a fan when REAL basketball was played. The only thing I see from LeBron is his ability to use his physical attributes to exploit a soft, floppy, crybaby league. It is an insult to compare him to the players you mentioned.

None of that matters as far as the media is concerned. Lebron may never substantively be better than one or a few of those players but he probably will be considered the GOAT by most people when he retires a la Jordan. Besides, even to hardcore fans nostalgia will fade over time. Just as Kareem, Wilt, and Russell see their cases for GOAT diminished because of their era's today Jordan's case will be weakened as the 90's become a chapter from history, not memory for most basketball fans.

For all the talk about how physical the 90's were, an entire playoff series was decided based on a last second touch foul after the shot was released (ironically, at the expense of Jordan's former team!). It wasn't as if they were playing under Roman Gladiator rules. Moreover, physicality does not inherently equal superiority. It must be remembered that today's game draws from the largest talent pool ever. Lebron is in a league that is 1/5 foreign-born. You look with nostalgia to memories of the 90's Knicks intentionally tripping players (because they lacked the talent to win playing clean basketball); today and tomorrow's generation will remember Lebron played against a far greater talent pool than Jordan did--just as MJ partisans are quick to remind Wilt and Russell partisans that those legends played against a smaller talent pool than Jordna did.


Chicago writers who covered MJ are already calling Lebron better than him....

http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=376028 < few days ago from the Chicago Daily Herald

If Lebron wins a ring this year there will be numerous media items of that nature--especially on ESPN, the most dominant opinion maker among sports fans. :cheers:

Lebron already has 2 MVP's--as many as Jordan after 7 seasons and actually one more than MJ at age 25. He is on track to get a ring this year--his 7th season like Mike. Keep in mind Jordan quit twice for a total of five seasons. Lebron is unlikely to do that. Jordan hurt his legacy by doing this. Lebron won't. Jordan cost himself a ring in 94' and perhaps a MVP or two in 94' and 95'.


LMAO unless LJ can win 3-5 rings while posting better stats i don't see how thats possible.

He already has stats comparable to the legends--and he is only 25 with his physical peak 2-3 years away. He just needs the rings. I agree that he needs at least 2 rings (Wilt has 2 and he has a legit case for GOAT), probably 3 to have a strong case for GOAT but I am assuming he will be able win that many. The guy contended for rings with scrubs in 09' and 07'. I think he will inevitably win a ring. He doesn't necessarily need 6 because he is not playing on teams nearly as strong as Jordan's. He has no HOF teammate in his prime. His teams are something like 2-10 without him since 2006 or 2007. They aren't the type of teams that could win 55 games with Lebron being replaced by a D-Leaguer like Jordan's team did.


LMao call me when the majority says so.

You know I will. :D

[juju151111]

Earlier in this thread I made the comment that within the next few years, the next generation will consider Jordan the same way that this generation has ranked Cousy...a vastly inferior player that could not play in the high schools of the newer generations.
Not with youtube and MJ showing making crazy moves that players can't do.

[juju151111]

None of that matters as far as the media is concerned. Lebron may never substantively be better than one or a few of those players but he probably will be considered the GOAT by most people when he retires a la Jordan. Besides, even to hardcore fans nostalgia will fade over time. Just as Kareem, Wilt, and Russell see their cases for GOAT diminished because of their era's today Jordan's case will be weakened as the 90's become a chapter from history, not memory for most basketball fans.

For all the talk about how physical the 90's were, an entire playoff series was decided based on a last second touch foul after the shot was released (ironically, at the expense of Jordan's former team!). It wasn't as if they were playing under Roman Gladiator rules. Moreover, physicality does not inherently equal superiority. It must be remembered that today's game draws from the largest talent pool ever. Lebron is in a league that is 1/5 foreign-born. You look with nostalgia to memories of the 90's Knicks intentionally tripping players (because they lacked the talent to win playing clean basketball); today and tomorrow's generation will remember Lebron played against a far greater talent pool than Jordan did--just as MJ partisans are quick to remind Wilt and Russell partisans that those legends played against a smaller talent pool than Jordna did.



If Lebron wins a ring this year there will be numerous media items of that nature--especially on ESPN, the most dominant opinion maker among sports fans. :cheers:

Lebron already has 2 MVP's--as many as Jordan after 7 seasons and actually one more than MJ at age 25. He is on track to get a ring this year--his 7th season like Mike. Keep in mind Jordan quit twice for a total of five seasons. Lebron is unlikely to do that. Jordan hurt his legacy by doing this. Lebron won't. Jordan cost himself a ring in 94' and perhaps a MVP or two in 94' and 95'.



He already has stats comparable to the legends--and he is only 25 with his physical peak 2-3 years away. He just needs the rings. I agree that he needs at least 2 rings (Wilt has 2 and he has a legit case for GOAT), probably 3 to have a strong case for GOAT but I am assuming he will be able win that many. The guy contended for rings with scrubs in 09' and 07'. I think he will inevitably win a ring. He doesn't necessarily need 6 because he is not playing on teams nearly as strong as Jordan's. He has no HOF teammate in his prime. His teams are something like 2-10 without him since 2006 or 2007. They aren't the type of teams that could win 55 games with Lebron being replaced by a D-Leaguer like Jordan's team did.



You know I will. :D
Ok so wats your point ?? The media will rightfully give LJ the goat stats with 3_5 rings and better stats??If LJ is better then so be it.

[jdem]

physicality does not inherently equal superiority.

It does if you (LeBron) base your play on the ability to freight-train down the lane without the defenders being able to touch you (and when you crash into the defenders, the refs just send you to the line :rolleyes: )

80's physicality wouldn't fundamentally change Bryant's or Durant's game. It would dramatically effect LeBron's productivity on the other hand.


Lebron already has 2 MVP's--as many as Jordan after 7 seasons

MVP is a worthless popularity trophy. Where are the Finals MVPs? How can you even be the leagues most valuable player if you fail to lead your team to a championship?


He is on track to get a ring this year--his 7th season like Mike.

Not going to happen. Even if the Cavaliers were the best team in the league (which they are not), beating the next three best teams in succession (Celtics then Magic then Lakers) is highly improbable.


He already has stats comparable to the legends

Except the only stat that counts.

[Simple Jack]

So Lebron can be lower than Duncan on the all time who is the best player list, but he can be better than Duncan? No, I disagree. The all time list is the only list there is.


Again, so KG is a better player now than he was in 04? On an all-time list yes, as an individual, no.

[Simple Jack]

Garnett could have been traded any time he asked for it. He didn't sit there sulking saying TRADE ME I want a championship, he got money and was pretty happy but when he started wanting to win a championship seriously he asked for a trade and has been contending since. It's easy.

And this translates to skill and individual play how? We are talking about the circumstances given and how their individual play affected/could have affected their winning in contrast with different situations. Complaining and asking for trades has nothing to do with how good of an individual player you are.

["Jesus"]

Cause thats what it FEELS like when watching them play. It just feels so obvious. IMO, too much emphasis is placed on who's better between these two guys, when essentially we should look at them as standard-bearers within their own selves.

Do this make it easier quantifying each player's greatness without unnecessarily putting down the other?

It FEELS like to me that you're an idiot.

[magnax1]

Roundball, you just need to stop saying that, it makes no sense. MAYBE to the average person who rarely watches basketball he could be the GOAT, but to anybody with a brain whos actually watched him and other players, they'd know AT LEAST that guys like Russell, Kareem, Shaq, Jordan, Bird etc. were better. Jordan put up far superior stats, and just played betterm and I don't think that anybody doubts that that has seen him play. Same with the other guys I listed.

[Simple Jack]

It does if you (LeBron) base your play on the ability to freight-train down the lane without the defenders being able to touch you (and when you crash into the defenders, the refs just send you to the line :rolleyes: )

80's physicality wouldn't fundamentally change Bryant's or Durant's game. It would dramatically effect LeBron's productivity on the other hand.



MVP is a worthless popularity trophy. Where are the Finals MVPs? How can you even be the leagues most valuable player if you fail to lead your team to a championship?



Not going to happen. Even if the Cavaliers were the best team in the league (which they are not), beating the next three best teams in succession (Celtics then Magic then Lakers) is highly improbable.



Except the only stat that counts.


All your points are terribly flawed.

First: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyd4NPvzKQg

Right, all he does is drive every play and no one ever tries to foul him. Pistons ECF come to mind? He takes over games plain and simple, even if his offense isn't rolling. To dismiss an all-time talent as a product of David Stern and a "soft-nba" exposes your agenda and your idiocy as a fan.

MVP is far from worthless. Look at the all-time most prolific MVP winners. Combine that with some of the best statistics (pace adjusted) the league has ever seen, and you have a rare player with a legitimate shot at being one of the best ever.

Rings aren't the only thing that counts; sure, to the player they are; but to us as fans, who use every game to analyze players, it certainly isn't.

I keep reiterating the same point but I have yet to get an answer. KG won the title in 08; apparently this is the only stat that matters to some of you, so you'd have to agree that he was better in 08 than in 04. This is simply not the case. Had KG continued his career on the Wolves and never won; he wouldn't get the respect he's gotten now. This is flawed considering KG was a shell of his former self in 08. He was just in a better POSITION to win - he played worse than he did in his years on the Wolves and still won because of the position he was in.

Take rings in context; using them as the be-all end-all is ignorant.

[jdem]

All your points are terribly flawed.

First: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyd4NPvzKQg

That video demonstrates exactly what I'm talking about, thank you. Ignore all the lucky 3 point chucks that you can't rely on to win a championship and fast forward to 1:53. He pulls the classic "freight train to the hoop" and gets sent to the line for MINIMAL contact. He is virtually undefendable as a result of the ridiculous rules we have in today's league (how can you stop that without contact?). He is Stern's golden child and the great commish is molding the league around their most valuable asset. Great for business and bad for real basketball fans. Just like how the WWE is more profitable than olympic wrestling...


Right, all he does is drive every play and no one ever tries to foul him.

You can't foul LeBron as hard as you'd need to without risking a flagrant 2 and Stern suspending you for potentially injuring his cash cow. This is why I made a point about the 80s-90s flagrant rules. Defense in today's league is neutered.


He takes over games plain and simple, even if his offense isn't rolling.

Because he exploits the "soft and gentle" rules that shouldn't be there in the first place.


Rings aren't the only thing that counts; sure, to the player they are; but to us as fans, who use every game to analyze players, it certainly isn't.

To me, the true mark of a legendary player is the ability to lead your team to a world championship. Jordan has done it. As has Magic, Russel, Chamberlain, Bird, and Kobe. LeBron has not, and likely will not, since he is more concerned with other things (like money).


Take rings in context; using them as the be-all end-all is ignorant.

The context is clear: Every player in contention for the GOAT has a ring.

[CeoTypeDoe619]

Lebron with another Mvp can become the "Media Goat"
But to be the REAL GOAT. He Has a long way to go!
At least 4 rings to even be a candidate

[jdem]

At least 4 rings to even be a candidate

And maybe one where he doesn't need Shaq to get it...

[Simple Jack]

That video demonstrates exactly what I'm talking about, thank you. Ignore all the lucky 3 point chucks that you can't rely on to win a championship and fast forward to 1:53. He pulls the classic "freight train to the hoop" and gets sent to the line for MINIMAL contact. He is virtually undefendable as a result of the ridiculous rules we have in today's league (how can you stop that without contact?). He is Stern's golden child and the great commish is molding the league around their most valuable asset. Great for business and bad for real basketball fans. Just like how the WWE is more profitable than olympic wrestling...



You can't foul LeBron as hard as you'd need to without risking a flagrant 2 and Stern suspending you for potentially injuring his cash cow. This is why I made a point about the 80s-90s flagrant rules. Defense in today's league is neutered.



Because he exploits the "soft and gentle" rules that shouldn't be there in the first place.



To me, the true mark of a legendary player is the ability to lead your team to a world championship. Jordan has done it. As has Magic, Russel, Chamberlain, Bird, and Kobe. LeBron has not, and likely will not, since he is more concerned with other things (like money).



The context is clear: Every player in contention for the GOAT has a ring.

The game against the Knicks was lucky too? The half court shot against Atlanta last year and the Bulls this year was lucky? His first half against the Clippers this year was lucky? He has shown he can take over a game offensively, defensively, whatever it may be.

You also neglect the fact that he is one of the best passers in the league as a 6'8 SF.


I don't even know why I'm debating this. You are talking as if LeBron is nothing special and just a regular player when he is unanimously agreed upon as one of the best talents this league has ever seen and by majority opinion, the best player in the league.

:hammerhead:

[raptorfan_dr07]

Lebron with another Mvp can become the "Media Goat"
But to be the REAL GOAT. He Has a long way to go!
At least 4 rings to even be a candidate

Derek Fisher, Robert Horry and Steve Kerr are in the running for GOAT? :banana: :banana:

These guys say hi:

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e215/DMKA/1119541744_5995.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e215/DMKA/wilt-chamberlain.jpg

[jdem]

I don't even know why I'm debating this. You are talking as if LeBron is nothing special and just a regular player when he is unanimously agreed upon as one of the best talents this league has ever seen and by majority opinion, the best player in the league.

It's easy to be an amazing talent when the league is built around the player and not the other way around.

[jlauber]

Lebron IS a great player...and by the time he hangs it up, there MAY be many that will call him the GOAT. BUT, to say he is one of the two greatest ever right now is absurd. He clearly has not accomplished what MJ did in his career, and IMHO, he has not had anything close to the career that Kobe has had, either. And then when you consider players like Kareem, Russell, Magic, and Wilt...well, sorry, Lebron is not in the same conversation.

And it just amazes me how posters just casually dismiss what Wilt achieved. And, here again, Lebron has no titles, while Chamberlain had two. On top of that, Wilt CRUSHES Lebron in nearly EVERY statistical category (alright Lebron is a better FT shooter, and 3pt shooter.) In terms of scoring, MJ is not even close to Chamberlain. Forget their career ppg averages...in Wilt's first seven seasons he averaged 40 ppg...COMBINED! 70+ point games...Wilt has SIX of the COMBINED 10 in NBA history. 60+ point games...Wilt has 32 of the COMBINED 62 (MJ and Kobe are next with FIVE each.) Rebounding? Chamberlain was THE greatest EVER, and by a HUGE margin (sorry Rodman fans...but Wilt POUNDED EVERYONE.) FG%? Ok, Shaq is in the conversation here, with 10 FG% titles to Wilt's nine, but he has also played four more seasons, AND, Wilt has the THREE of the top-5 seasons of all-time, including the two highest. Blocked shots? We don't have "official" stats for Wilt (or Russell), but the evidence is overwhelming...Chamberlain was THE greatest shot-blocker in NBA history. Hell, he even led the NBA in assists one year (how many times did Lebron or MJ do that?)

As for Russell...what more could he do (alright...he could have gone 13-13 I guess)? 11 rings and he was generally regarded as the greatest player of his era, by his peers.

Of course, Kareem with his six rings and MVPs, and his career records. Or Magic who guided LA to EIGHT Finals in 10 years, and FIVE titles.

So, there are several players who should be mentioned in these conversations as THE greatest ever. In any case, Lebron has a LONG way to go before he can ranked with those guys.

[CeoTypeDoe619]

Derek Fisher, Robert Horry and Steve Kerr are in the running for GOAT? :banana: :banana:

These guys say hi:

Bird, Wilt [/IMG]

Typical homer response SMH! Larry Bird is far from a candidate for GOAT. When you score 100 points and average 50 n 20 half a ring will do the job lol

[godofgods]

To me, the true mark of a legendary player is the ability to lead your team to a world championship. Jordan has done it. As has Magic, Russel, Chamberlain, Bird, and Kobe. LeBron has not, and likely will not, since he is more concerned with other things (like money).




Sorry, but none of those players ever won a world championship.

LOL @ putting Kobe's name alongside those other players.

[godofgods]

That video demonstrates exactly what I'm talking about, thank you. Ignore all the lucky 3 point chucks that you can't rely on to win a championship and fast forward to 1:53. He pulls the classic "freight train to the hoop" and gets sent to the line for MINIMAL contact. He is virtually undefendable as a result of the ridiculous rules we have in today's league (how can you stop that without contact?). He is Stern's golden child and the great commish is molding the league around their most valuable asset. Great for business and bad for real basketball fans. Just like how the WWE is more profitable than olympic wrestling...


Lebron is not Stern's golden child as he plays in Cleveland.

You are confusing Lebron and Kobe. Kobe's Stern only golden child.

The NBA started becoming like WWE ever since Stern took office. Look at how many championships the Fakers got since he took office.

[dough]

He's gonna win his first NBA Finals MVP this year. Both Jordan and Shaq were 28 yrs.old when they won the Bill Russell Finals MVP.
Looking forward to that.

[Anaximandro1]

Looking forward to that.

:lol :oldlol: :roll:

[Richard 23]

I love LeBron, but no way he is the second greatest player ever as of now. That is an insult to many of the greats to say that a 25 year old with no rings is better than Russell, Bird, Magic,...

Maybe one day :).

[catch24]

He's already top 25-30 IMO. A ring would, well, let's just say do wonders for his career ranking.

[PHILA]

http://i39.tinypic.com/25gvyo9.jpg+1

http://www.limelightagency.com/Stephen-Holland/images/400/chamberlain-ressell.jpg

A fine piece on the Chamberlain/Russell rivalry.

http://www.megavideo.com/?d=W40Y3RI9