What cast does Lebron need, so no more excuses

[Desperado]

Anytime someone brings up Kobe/Lebron, a majority of Lebron supporters instantly pull the supporting cast excuse. It is known Kobe played with a prime Shaq and now has Gasol, last I checked those two great players really didnt do much till they were paired up with Kobe. All Lebron fans were screaming championship the moment the Jamison trade happened, but since they were exposed by the Celtics, we are back to the cast problem, how can a cast that give back to back 60 win seasons be bad. People say if he had a great cast, his team would me a 70+ win team, which is ridiculous.

So now its free agency, please give me a serious answer as to what cast does he need, to the point no more excuses, that if his team fails in the playoffs then its gonna be obvious the problem is him.

[scott0326]

This cast would do him good

PG - CP3
SG - Wade
SF - Lebron
PF - Dirk
C - Dwight Howard

It would give Lebron some average teammates, I think that team can win 45-50 games in east.

[bl2k8]

he had a cast this year, most agreed after the trade that there were no more excuses to be made. 61 wins, best record in the L. They at LEAST should have been in the Finals

[MMM]

As long as he keeps losing people will keep making excuses it wasn't that long ago people were making excuses for Kobe from 05-08.

[griffmoney2084]

for lebrons style of holding the ball and hogging for iso, pick and rolls and kick out threes


G Joe Johnson
G Michael Redd
F Lebron James
F Dirk Nowitzki
C Rasheed Wallace


this is the only way lebron could have a team that would suit his hogging

just have players that stand in each corner for a kick out three while lebron hogs it up for 48 min

[NBASTATMAN]

As long as he keeps losing people will keep making excuses it wasn't that long ago people were making excuses for Kobe from 05-08.


And for Shaq until he got Phil Jackson.. I think people underestimate the value of a great coach...

[griffmoney2084]

As long as he keeps losing people will keep making excuses it wasn't that long ago people were making excuses for Kobe from 05-08.

the excuses were legit

05 = kobe and odom injured and chucky atkens was the 3rd best player
06 = kwame and smush were the starting pg and C
07 = same
08 = bynum hurt, kevin mchale rigged boston a title just before the big 3 were past their primes

[griffmoney2084]

And for Shaq until he got Phil Jackson.. I think people underestimate the value of a great coach...

i think phil helped allot

but having kobe emerge as the top 2 way player in the league the verry same year didnt hurt either

[cotdt]

This cast would do him good

PG - CP3
SG - Wade
SF - Lebron
PF - Dirk
C - Dwight Howard

It would give Lebron some average teammates, I think that team can win 45-50 games in east.

There is only one ball, in basketball.

[griffmoney2084]

There is only one ball, in basketball.


honestly.... it would only hurt lebrons stats... and the pg on a team with those players would get 20 assists a night

ultimately making that guy the mvp and not lebron lol

[flipogb]

he needs Kobe, lol

no Kobe= Bronze medal

with Kobe = gold medal

maybe its the same for the NBA playoffs,lol

[OldSchoolBBall]

I don't feel that he has an excuse for not at least getting to the Finals this year (he had a very talented team, the best record in the league, and he's the MVP and best player in the league by a decent margin imo), but if you really want to compare apples to apples (i.e., Lebron vs. other greats), he'll need a LEGIT #2 option who can create his own offense, be it a post or perimeter player, to the tune of 19-23 ppg. Not a bunch of slightly over the hill or borderline quality players who can average 13-16 ppg. If he gets that sort of second option (like Kobe has in Gasol, like Shaq had in Kobe etc.) plus solid roleplayers and still can't win, then it just wasn't meant to be.

[ShaqAttack3234]

i think phil helped allot

but having kobe emerge as the top 2 way player in the league the verry same year didnt hurt either

Kobe came up on big in the clutch in some playoff games, but he wasn't yet a superstar player in 2000, he took that next step in 2001. Phil did help Shaq, but Shaq was in his prime, focused and motivated.

[cotdt]

He needs a big that doesn't get shut down by KG, and can defend.

[griffmoney2084]

Kobe came up on big in the clutch in some playoff games, but he wasn't yet a superstar player in 2000, he took that next step in 2001. Phil did help Shaq, but Shaq was in his prime, focused and motivated.


you act like 22/5/5 isnt great

thats like 3 points off his career average... without glen rice there kobe would have had 2001 type stats

he also made 1st team all nba defense that year

[YAWN]

he'll need a LEGIT #2 option who can create his own offense, be it a post or perimeter player, to the tune of 19-23 ppg. Not a bunch of slightly over the hill or borderline quality players who can average 13-16 ppg. If he gets that sort of second option (like Kobe has in Gasol, like Shaq had in Kobe etc.) plus solid roleplayers and still can't win, then it just wasn't meant to be.

jamison was a 20/10 guy before the trade. He would frequently drop 30/10. Lebron needs a coach that can instill an actual offense that isn't just get the ball to lebron and see what happens. its successful during the regular season but exposed in the playoffs.

[elementally morale]

There is no sure-fire cast for him -- or anyone else for that matter. Matchups. A few bounces here and there. 7 game series, intangibles. Good teams can beat one another any given day. Titles are a bit overrated. There is no guaranteed way to get them.

[ShaqAttack3234]

jamison was a 20/10 guy before the trade. He would frequently drop 30/10. Lebron needs a coach that can instill an actual offense that isn't just get the ball to lebron and see what happens. its successful during the regular season but exposed in the playoffs.

Summed up exactly what I was going to say.

[Underballer]

PG- Steve Nash
SG- Kobe Bryant
SF- Lebrick
PF- Chris Bosh
C- Dwight

[ShaqAttack3234]

you act like 22/5/5 isnt great

thats like 3 points off his career average... without glen rice there kobe would have had 2001 type stats

he also made 1st team all nba defense that year

Kobe was clearly a different player in 2001. Kobe was a legit all-star caliber swingman in 2000, but far from the same Kobe during the other titles he won. Then, he was truly elite. But while I give Kobe a ton of credit for his game-winning shot vs Phoenix, his game-saving block vs Portland and his OT performance vs Indiana, but the bottom line is he averaged what? 21/5/4 on 44% shooting for the playoffs? Very good, but not an elite player yet and even though his stats would look marginally better than the 16/4/4 on 37% shooting he averaged in the finals, he still had a few more shot attempts than points and that FG% is subpar regardless. I can't see 2001 Kobe having a series that bad. In 2001, Kobe was the second best player in the entire playoffs and top 5 in the league, he was dominant in the WCSF and WCF.

Kobe's career numbers are lower because he came off the bench his first few seasons. Prime Kobe has consistently been a 27-28 ppg scorer on good teams other than 2002 when he averaged 25.

[PowerGlove]

Kobe was clearly a different player in 2001. Kobe was a legit all-star caliber swingman in 2000, but far from the same Kobe during the other titles he won. Then, he was truly elite. But while I give Kobe a ton of credit for his game-winning shot vs Phoenix, his game-saving block vs Portland and his OT performance vs Indiana, but the bottom line is he averaged what? 21/5/4 on 44% shooting for the playoffs? Very good, but not an elite player yet and even though his stats would look marginally better than the 16/4/4 on 37% shooting he averaged in the finals, he still had a few more shot attempts than points and that FG% is subpar regardless. I can't see 2001 Kobe having a series that bad. In 2001, Kobe was the second best player in the entire playoffs and top 5 in the league, he was dominant in the WCSF and WCF.
:wtf:

[OldSchoolBBall]

jamison was a 20/10 guy before the trade. He would frequently drop 30/10. Lebron needs a coach that can instill an actual offense that isn't just get the ball to lebron and see what happens. its successful during the regular season but exposed in the playoffs.

I do agree with you that they need a less Lebron-centric system, and that Lebron himself needs to learn to become less ball dominant, but you're kidding yourself if you think that Jamison is anywhere near as good as guys like Gasol, Kobe (even 2000 Kobe), Pippen, KAJ or Magic or Worthy or McHale etc.

[ShaqAttack3234]

:wtf:

You don't think Kobe had an argument for being a top 5 player in 2001? And other than Shaq, who played better in the playoffs?

[cotdt]

jamison was a 20/10 guy before the trade. He would frequently drop 30/10. Lebron needs a coach that can instill an actual offense that isn't just get the ball to lebron and see what happens. its successful during the regular season but exposed in the playoffs.

It was partly because Lebron didn't know how to use Jamison (or Shaq, for that matter) and partly because KG played good defense.

[Indian guy]

A legit 2nd option is obviously a given, but even more important than that IMO is a good coach. Someone who can run a system complimenting LeBron's strengths without alienating his teammates. Cleveland finished 4th in offensive efficiency the past 2 seasons, yet LeBron's cast struggled massively in their 2 departing series'. In '09 he had a HUGE series against Orlando and that's how Cleveland managed to stay competitive. When he was off against Boston, the whole team collapsed with him. This NEVER happens to other ELITE teams when their star player is off. Good coaches know how to utilize their talent to the best of its abilities. In Cleveland, whether LeBron's involved in a play or not, Mike Brown simply never knew how to get his cast going against a quality opponent. You could somewhat forgive him in past seasons but Cleveland had very solid talent this year. They simply had no excuses in losing to Boston. It's pathetic what happened.

You can build the "right team" for LeBron but if it's coached by Mike Brown, he's not winning the championship. Get him the right coach.

[WBynumToTheHole]

Lebron needs a post presence and another scorer.

The Bulls conceivably could sign Lebron then sign and trade for Boozer.

Rose
Hinrich
James
Boozer
Noah

the Lakers still might be better. Would make a helluva series though.

[Harison]

This cast would do him good

PG - CP3
SG - Wade
SF - Lebron
PF - Dirk
C - Dwight Howard

It would give Lebron some average teammates, I think that team can win 45-50 games in east.
Starting five is decent, but dont forget the bench!

PG - Deron
SG - Kobe
SF - Durant
PF - Gasol
C - Duncan

This could give Lebron few more wins, give or take. Also good coach is important, how about Phil, Larry and Pop? This trio should do.

[cotdt]

Lebron needs a post presence and another scorer.

The Bulls conceivably could sign Lebron then sign and trade for Boozer.

Rose
Hinrich
James
Boozer
Noah

the Lakers still might be better. Would make a helluva series though.

Replace Hinrich with Ray Allen, they need a sharpshooter who is also a bigger defender.

[WBynumToTheHole]

But they probably won't get Ray Allen. I'm looking at whats possible. Hinrich can hit 3's.

I guess they could trade him... but what team wants to invest in Hinrich?

[LA KB24]

jamison was a 20/10 guy before the trade. He would frequently drop 30/10. Lebron needs a coach that can instill an actual offense that isn't just get the ball to lebron and see what happens. its successful during the regular season but exposed in the playoffs.
Pretty much this.

[WBynumToTheHole]

jamison is no gasol. lets be real, he doesn't impact the game like gasol does. he doesn't rebound as well, he doesn't defend as well, and he doesn't score as efficiently.

he was on the washington wizards guys.

[Twiens]

I don't feel that he has an excuse for not at least getting to the Finals this year (he had a very talented team, the best record in the league, and he's the MVP and best player in the league by a decent margin imo), but if you really want to compare apples to apples (i.e., Lebron vs. other greats), he'll need a LEGIT #2 option who can create his own offense, be it a post or perimeter player, to the tune of 19-23 ppg. Not a bunch of slightly over the hill or borderline quality players who can average 13-16 ppg. If he gets that sort of second option (like Kobe has in Gasol, like Shaq had in Kobe etc.) plus solid roleplayers and still can't win, then it just wasn't meant to be.

Jamison was 21/9 with Wizards this year, not saying he's as good as Gasol just saying. At a certain point one has to be accountable to make his teammates job easier.

[RazorBaLade]

jamison is no gasol. lets be real, he doesn't impact the game like gasol does. he doesn't rebound as well, he doesn't defend as well, and he doesn't score as efficiently.

he was on the washington wizards guys.

gasol after coming to la played better. jamison played worse. thats the diff. gasol was not this type of player b4 kobe,bron doesnt have that effect on ppl.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Gasol averaged 20/9/2 on 50% shooting with 4.6 apg while leading Memphis to 49 wins in 2006. He's been a very good player for a while now.

[RazorBaLade]

Gasol averaged 20/9/2 on 50% shooting with 4.6 apg while leading Memphis to 49 wins in 2006. He's been a very good player for a while now.

and jamison wasn't That much worse to put up such horrible stats in playoffs and considerably worse stats since joining Cle.

[rfm767]

There is no sure-fire cast for him -- or anyone else for that matter. Matchups. A few bounces here and there. 7 game series, intangibles. Good teams can beat one another any given day. Titles are a bit overrated. There is no guaranteed way to get them.

this post is a jewel

:applause:

[OldSchoolBBall]

It's the triangle, PJax, and the overall abundance of talent on LA that has helped Gasol more than Kobe in particular. Let Gasol run the triangle back in his Memphis days with PJax as coach and his FG% rises by 1.5-3%. Kobe helps, but these other factors help just as much or more imo. It's not an apples to apples comparison, but Kobe fanboys like to seize on it because this is the only angle they have to attack Lebron now.

[WBynumToTheHole]

gasol after coming to la played better. jamison played worse. thats the diff. gasol was not this type of player b4 kobe,bron doesnt have that effect on ppl.

First off Lebron made Mo Williams an Allstar. Second Gasol played better because he had a better team. Teams couldn't focus all their attention on him anymore.

Gasol is better than Jamison, by far. The only player that isn't a top tier player at their position for LA is Fisher. Kobe's cast is championship caliber. Lebron's isnt.

Lebron and Kobe are so good its hard to tell who's better. But I can tell you if you switch Lebron and Kobe Cleveland wouldn't have had the best record.

[rfm767]

First off Lebron made Mo Williams an Allstar. Second Gasol played better because he had a better team. Teams couldn't focus all their attention on him anymore.

Gasol is better than Jamison, by far. The only player that isn't a top tier player at their position for LA is Fisher. Kobe's cast is championship caliber. Lebron's isnt.

Lebron and Kobe are so good its hard to tell who's better. But I can tell you if you switch Lebron and Kobe Cleveland wouldn't have had the best record.

You switching the refs too? :oldlol:

[WBynumToTheHole]

Lebron simply makes a bigger impact on the game. He's bigger.

Kobe has the rings so he's "better". I get it. But give Lebron the same talent Kobe has and I say Lebron's team comes out on top if they face eachother.

Kobe doesn't rebound like Lebron. He's smaller. Their skills are pretty much equal. It comes down to size.

[WBynumToTheHole]

by the way I'm a pistons fan I've seen Kobe and Shaq be dismantled by the same team that got dismantled by Lebron.

[shadow]

There is only one ball, in basketball.


Didn't you hear? David Stern said he would make an exception and provide that team with 4. Howard doesn't get one though. All he gets are fouls.

[cotdt]

Lebron simply makes a bigger impact on the game. He's bigger.

Kobe has the rings so he's "better". I get it. But give Lebron the same talent Kobe has and I say Lebron's team comes out on top if they face eachother.

Kobe doesn't rebound like Lebron. He's smaller. Their skills are pretty much equal. It comes down to size.

Considering that Lebron uses up much more of his team's possessions than Kobe for shots/assists, he SHOULD have a higher impact as every play goes through Lebron. Doesn't mean it is winning basketball. Kobe plays in a distributed offense because the Lakers have an actual coach. It gets EVERYONE involved.

Lebron plays closer to the basket because of his position, so he grabs more defensive rebounds. Kobe is actually the better offensive rebounder. This has nothing to do with size, but where one happens to be.

[cotdt]

Didn't you hear? David Stern said he would make an exception and provide that team with 4. Howard doesn't get one though. All he gets are fouls.

Ehh what's the point of having Dwight, if he can't manage to get favorite treatment from the league?

[Dengness9]

Lebron has never ever played with a legitimate number 2 in his career.

Mo and Jamison are the closest. And niether are anywhere near bonafide all-stars year after year. Niether demand a double team either, ever.

Give Lebron D-Rose. Watch the weight of the world lift off Lebrons shoulders. He needs that no.2 who can dominate almost as much as him. Plus he needs that other stud who can also step up in the clutch like he has to.

At the end of the game, if Lebron has that other guy, they can't double team him because then he can dish to the other guy who can get any shot he wants 1 on 1.

[cotdt]

Lebron has never ever played with a legitimate number 2 in his career.

Mo and Jamison are the closest. And niether are anywhere near bonafide all-stars year after year. Niether demand a double team either, ever.

Give Lebron D-Rose. Watch the weight of the world lift off Lebrons shoulders. He needs that no.2 who can dominate almost as much as him. Plus he needs that other stud who can also step up in the clutch like he has to.

At the end of the game, if Lebron has that other guy, they can't double team him because then he can dish to the other guy who can get any shot he wants 1 on 1.

Rose and Lebron would be bad fits as they do mostly the same things. Who is going to run the offense? Neither player is effective w/o the ball. Both players' stats would go down dramatically.

I don't think Lebron can work well with anyone who needs the ball in their hands a lot, which most stars are. Most stars would see their stats drop playing with Lebron.

[RazorBaLade]

First off Lebron made Mo Williams an Allstar. Second Gasol played better because he had a better team. Teams couldn't focus all their attention on him anymore.

Gasol is better than Jamison, by far. The only player that isn't a top tier player at their position for LA is Fisher. Kobe's cast is championship caliber. Lebron's isnt.

Lebron and Kobe are so good its hard to tell who's better. But I can tell you if you switch Lebron and Kobe Cleveland wouldn't have had the best record.

mo williams was an all star one time (not this year) and he got in because not 1 but 2 people died. Mo was closer to being an all star before cle than since joining cle, its just a matter of exposure like for example pau would have not gone down as anything special if he is still in memph but he comes here, shows his talent, gets a little mental help from kobe and now he is praised so highly.

Of course kobes cast is better. But kobe should be credited with that too. I don't see lebron demanding trades and trying to get specific players just so he can win a ring. There's a reason why kobe wanted fisher and not mo, kobe wants experience and the best chance to win a ring, lebron wants someone who will buy into lebrons game.

[Harison]

Some people think if you add one thing (elite coach, or legitimate 2nd option) Lebron wins the rings, IMO in most cases he wouldnt. He needs full set:

1. Very well build team around his strengths, and negating his weaknesses. Think of Celtics or Lakers style of team.
2. All-Star level 2nd scoring option, who can create on his own.
3. Elite coach.
4. Healthy team in the Playoffs.

Take away any of those points, and he may or may not succeed.

[RazorBaLade]

Some people think if you add one thing (elite coach, or legitimate 2nd option) Lebron wins the rings, IMO in most cases he wouldnt. He needs full set:

1. Very well build team around his strengths, and negating his weaknesses. Think of Celtics or Lakers style of team.
2. All-Star level scoring option, who can create on his own.
3. Elite coach.
4. Healthy team in the Playoffs.

Take away any of those points, and he may or may not succeed.

how can you build a team around his strengths if you give him an allstar level player who creates on his own? If lebron is willing to change his game up to allow for a team game then okay hes gonna be great, but right now a proper cast around him is impossible. If he goes to NY he's the biggest stat whore of all time

[Harison]

how can you build a team around his strengths if you give him an allstar level player who creates on his own? If lebron is willing to change his game up to allow for a team game then okay hes gonna be great, but right now a proper cast around him is impossible. If he goes to NY he's the biggest stat whore of all time
Thats because he doesnt know any better, think about Jordan pre-Phil. If Lebron gets quality teammates and very good coach, he will be part of the system, not be THE system. His stats would go down, but rings starts to flow.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Mo was actually a good point guard to pair with Lebron. Great shooter, scoring point guard, pretty good player, but not a ball dominant point guard which fits a lot better with Lebron's game.

Z was also a good player to pair with Lebron and he did make an all-star team alongside Lebron, he was great at hitting those pick and pop 18-20 footers, had an ugly, but effective post game could throw lobs from the high post to Lebron and he was an excellent offensive rebounder and up until recently, he was a good shot blocker. But he's too old now.

Varejao also fit right in and got the Cavs countless extra possessions.

But in the end, they didn't have the offensive firepower in past years, but I'm convinced this season that Brown's system is more to blame than the talent.

The Cavs style of basketball worked in the regular season and vs weak playoff teams because he could carry the Cavs offensively in those games, but facing good teams in the playoffs, that type of strategy won't get it done.

[Dengness9]

Rose and Lebron would be bad fits as they do mostly the same things. Who is going to run the offense? Neither player is effective w/o the ball. Both players' stats would go down dramatically.

the fact that you think an offense would suffer or that Rose and LBJ's stats would go down "dramatically" makes it hard to understand what the **** you are thinking about or talking about. I know you've seen Lebron play alot but you cannot tell me you've seen Rose enough times to make an opinion on how he plays, cuz you are not making sense. BTW the only stat that would matter and mean anything to a Rose/Lebron duo is W's and Chips won.

Are Derrick Rose and Lebron selfish w/ the ball?? Absolutely not, and quite the opposite.

Can Rose not go for 25 and Lebron for 30? You act like it's impossible. If anyone has an opinion that they are a good enough 1-2 punch to win a chip, then you would have to assume they both can score 25-30 a game. Even if any of their stats dip, some would improve or stay the same too. And it's all in the name of winning.

It's like how Phil had to get MJ to stop trying to do it all himself. If Lebron has to let Rose get some spotlight in the name of winning and being better, he'll do it. Lebron still gets to be number 1 option and number 1 spotlight. There wouldn't be significant drop off in numbers like u suggest anyway. They are not gonna hurt eachothers game, that's a joke.

"as they mostly do the same things..."

yea like dominate the **** out of their opponents because they are gentic freaks? Lebron has never had a real sidekick, Rose is that guy. Derrick Rose is like the Lebron James of PG's, I've always liked that. So that means I have Lebron at SF and a shorter Lebron at PG too?

Yea I'll take that I guess. People trying to kill eachother just to get their hands on 1 Lebron, but my squad gets to have 2 of em.

Not to get it twisted tho, Rose has the opposite personality. Extremely quiet, extremely humble, but with a killer instinct that the all greats have to have.

One of the brightest young ballers on the planet and probably the most humble. That's refreshing to see these days, it's pretty rare to find now.

You heard it here, Lebron is done dancing til he wins a title no matter where he ends up. That shit was pathetic then and now he is finally realizing how premature it was and how stupid he looks now, but we already knew this. Win something first, then do what you do if you really have to showboat.

If you ask me to predict it goes like this.....
At one point beefing over the dancing as opponents,
LBJ and Noah will eventually be dancing as teammates and champions.

[spree43]

He just needs another good basketballer

Mo isn't a good player, he can score but he's not a good basketballer

Jameson is a terrible defender and really not too good a player in terms of awareness either

Shaq can barely play and has turned into an liability clogging the paint

Give him Baron Davis, Rose, Wall or one of the top free agents with some team orientated role players and he'll win

[Dengness9]

Mo was actually a good point guard to pair with Lebron. Great shooter, scoring point guard, pretty good player, but not a ball dominant point guard which fits a lot better with Lebron's game.

Z was also a good player to pair with Lebron and he did make an all-star team alongside Lebron, he was great at hitting those pick and pop 18-20 footers, had an ugly, but effective post game could throw lobs from the high post to Lebron and he was an excellent offensive rebounder and up until recently, he was a good shot blocker. But he's too old now.

Varejao also fit right in and got the Cavs countless extra possessions.

But in the end, they didn't have the offensive firepower in past years, but I'm convinced this season that Brown's system is more to blame than the talent.

The Cavs style of basketball worked in the regular season and vs weak playoff teams because he could carry the Cavs offensively in those games, but facing good teams in the playoffs, that type of strategy won't get it done.


I totally agree that Mo is a good PG to pair w/ Lebron, but then he can't be the second option, a duty him and Jamison shared this year. Mo doesn't demand a double team and just isn't considered dominant enough. He can get hot or have a big game like Jamison but they lack real star power.

Lebron's cavs were built around him well, but like you kinda eluded to, they aren't a playoff tough built team at all. I firmly believed the Cavs would be out before the finals and possibly before the ECF all year long even w/ Jamison addition because of the very points above I brought up.

And Mo as someone pointed out made the allstar game because of 2 player injuries.

[ginobli2311]

mo williams was an all star one time (not this year) and he got in because not 1 but 2 people died. Mo was closer to being an all star before cle than since joining cle, its just a matter of exposure like for example pau would have not gone down as anything special if he is still in memph but he comes here, shows his talent, gets a little mental help from kobe and now he is praised so highly.

Of course kobes cast is better. But kobe should be credited with that too. I don't see lebron demanding trades and trying to get specific players just so he can win a ring. There's a reason why kobe wanted fisher and not mo, kobe wants experience and the best chance to win a ring, lebron wants someone who will buy into lebrons game.

How is demanding a trade and trashing your teammates a positive thing? Kobe has nothing to do with front office moves.....same for Lebron. They are players.....they have input....but thats all. Don't sit here and play revisionist history and try to credit Kobe for bringing back Fisher and adding Gasol. All it proves is that Kobe was not willing to go through the normal pains of an NBA career like everyone else. Kobe reminds me of a spoiled child that has had everything setup perfectly for him in his career. This first sign of things not going well and he's ready to jump ship. LOL. I don't want that type of guy on my team.

What does Lebron need? He needs a legit #2 player like a wade or bosh or rose or dirk or joe johnson. He also needs a much better coach and he also needs a defensive minded team with a big that can protect the paint both on and off the ball. In my opinion, Lebron would be a great fit with chicago. Lebron isn't at his best dominating the ball like he has to in Cleveland. He's much better playing the wing and running the floor. A good coach would recognize this. With Noah and Rose, the Bulls have exactly what Lebron needs. If he wants to win, it should be the easiest decision of his life. Big market, young talent, open coaching slot. The Bulls would be able to add a few more pieces around rose/lebron/noah and create a championship window of around 5-8 years depending on what happens.

Until Lebron plays with another great player and a good coach I'm not going to hate on him. This was the first year of his career that he didn't lead his team to vast over achievement in both the regular season and playoffs. But as I have said before.....anyone that actually thought the Cavs were going to win it all.....let alone make the finals does not know basketball or the history of the game. I'm sorry but its true. Everyone bought the hype and didn't look at what was actually going on. I understand people picking the Cavs to beat Boston but thats about it.

You need a lot of help to win NBA titles. Its a simple and obvious fact. We can't ignore this with Lebron or Wade. They are 2 great players and easily on par or better than Kobe has ever been in his career. Don't be so quick to forget how badly Kobe failed from 2003 to 2008. Right in the prime of his career. Did it ruin his legacy? Hell no it didn't....Kobe has elevated himself to one of the 15 best players ever with the chance to move up if wins it again this year.

If Lebron gets his shaq or gasol and his phil jackson and still fails to win titles.....then I'll be all over him right with everyone else here. But even the best players of all time needed help....and none of them won every year. Don't forget to look back at the history of the game before you judge a player. Its just not accurate or fair.

[RazorBaLade]

How is demanding a trade and trashing your teammates a positive thing? Kobe has nothing to do with front office moves.....same for Lebron. They are players.....they have input....but thats all. Don't sit here and play revisionist history and try to credit Kobe for bringing back Fisher and adding Gasol. All it proves is that Kobe was not willing to go through the normal pains of an NBA career like everyone else. Kobe reminds me of a spoiled child that has had everything setup perfectly for him in his career. This first sign of things not going well and he's ready to jump ship. LOL. I don't want that type of guy on my team.

What does Lebron need? He needs a legit #2 player like a wade or bosh or rose or dirk or joe johnson. He also needs a much better coach and he also needs a defensive minded team with a big that can protect the paint both on and off the ball. In my opinion, Lebron would be a great fit with chicago. Lebron isn't at his best dominating the ball like he has to in Cleveland. He's much better playing the wing and running the floor. A good coach would recognize this. With Noah and Rose, the Bulls have exactly what Lebron needs. If he wants to win, it should be the easiest decision of his life. Big market, young talent, open coaching slot. The Bulls would be able to add a few more pieces around rose/lebron/noah and create a championship window of around 5-8 years depending on what happens.

Until Lebron plays with another great player and a good coach I'm not going to hate on him. This was the first year of his career that he didn't lead his team to vast over achievement in both the regular season and playoffs. But as I have said before.....anyone that actually thought the Cavs were going to win it all.....let alone make the finals does not know basketball or the history of the game. I'm sorry but its true. Everyone bought the hype and didn't look at what was actually going on. I understand people picking the Cavs to beat Boston but thats about it.

You need a lot of help to win NBA titles. Its a simple and obvious fact. We can't ignore this with Lebron or Wade. They are 2 great players and easily on par or better than Kobe has ever been in his career. Don't be so quick to forget how badly Kobe failed from 2003 to 2008. Right in the prime of his career. Did it ruin his legacy? Hell no it didn't....Kobe has elevated himself to one of the 15 best players ever with the chance to move up if wins it again this year.

If Lebron gets his shaq or gasol and his phil jackson and still fails to win titles.....then I'll be all over him right with everyone else here. But even the best players of all time needed help....and none of them won every year. Don't forget to look back at the history of the game before you judge a player. Its just not accurate or fair.

demanding trades shows u want to win I don't know why thats hard to understand

[jbryan1984]

lol, there is always going to be excuses. He had the cast this year. Really the only argument that could be made is that Jamison and Shaq did not play much together (2 games?) until the playoffs. And that is hardly an excuse. They just had no answer for Rondo or Garnett. All they could do was pray they had off nights. I was hoping Pierces slump and Allen's bad game 6 would help but it didn't.

[InfiniteBaskets]

For a realistic salary requirement,

PG: Nash
SG: Thabo Sefolosha
SF: LeBron
PF: Al Horford
C: Tyson Chandler


Don't worry about who's coach. Just let Nash design the plays during game time.

[Doko]

Just give him Jason Kapono and it's a guaranteed championship :banana:

[iamgine]

this cast:

http://www.the-cookes.com/surgery/images/full%20leg%20cast.jpg

With this cast, there can be no more excuses.

[Papaya Petee]

PG- Derek Fisher
SG- Glen Rice
SF- LeBron James
PF- A.C Green
C- Shaquille O'Neal

Coach- Phil Jackson

[Mentally_Pretty]

This cast would do him good

PG - CP3
SG - Wade
SF - Lebron
PF - Dirk
C - Dwight Howard

It would give Lebron some average teammates, I think that team can win 45-50 games in east.
if LeLonte James need these core group of guys to get a ring, then maybe hes not so great.

[Mentally_Pretty]

like i said before, if LeBron REALLY wants a ring,he better go to OKC and becomes Durant's Pippen or Robin.

or he could be their 6 man and become the GOAT bench player. multiple 6 Man of the Year Awards.

[iamgine]

This message is hidden because Mentally_Pretty is on your ignore list. :banana:

[lakerspng]

He needs a teammate and a coach with the balls to put him in his place. He won't get that. He's going to continue to be catered to and therefore will not develop them type of character he needs, unless it happens off the court.

If you're giving him a self-serving team. An athletic big who can run the floor and score and capitalize off Lebron's playmaking ability, like Amare would be helpful. Also a great outside shooter that can somewhat create his own shot, ala Michael Redd.

So, give Lebron, Amare and Redd and he'd be hard to stop. Defensively he'd need a very good defensive center who is tough and can crash the boards, as well as a PG who can chase around anyone, keep them out of the lanes and shoot the 3.

[step_back]

people are forgetting how good the celtics are when healthy, lakers have not met the celtics in the post season since they lost to them in the finals. Cleveland underachieved this year but many Ish users are looking at boston like they are some kind of sub par team.

[stephanieg]

LeBron did epic fail and I'll be happy if he never wins a ring, but the Cleveland roster is basically a bunch of rejects from lottery teams and failed moneyball stat examples.

Gasol-Kobe
Dwight-Nelson
Rondo-KG
Nash-Amare

LeBron and...Varejao? :D

[nashisbest]

i bet lebron can get plenty far ahead if gasol was in cavs

[Younggrease]

All I knowis that if he plays with Wade it going to hurt his legacy...there is a good chance that Wade would win the finals MVPs and that would really bother Lebron imo.

[KAJ=GOAT]

Lets be real here.

Lebron had a cast, in Cleveland and


for the Olympics. Until Kobe got there, Lebronze was never winning gold.


Its time people start realizing its not the players around Lebron,

its Lebron who is the problem.

[NBASTATMAN]

It was partly because Lebron didn't know how to use Jamison (or Shaq, for that matter) and partly because KG played good defense.


WHat do you want ? Lebron can't make shots for these guys... Jamison and Shaq both scuked vs boston... Shaq may have scored but most of those were wide open layups.. He missed most of the shots where he was backing Perkins down... Jamison was just being abused on defense... Lebron needs to play off the ball as well... He also needs a post game...

[KAJ=GOAT]

WHat do you want ? Lebron can't make shots for these guys... Jamison and Shaq both scuked vs boston... Shaq may have scored but most of those were wide open layups.. He missed most of the shots where he was backing Perkins down... Jamison was just being abused on defense... Lebron needs to play off the ball as well... He also needs a post game...


"Lebron makes his teammates better".

What happened?

[Derka]

The Boston Celtics or the LA Lakers.

[Braincells]

The problem isn't the team, it's Lebron.

[ukplayer4]

every year lebrons supporting cast gets stronger and stronger, i dont think you can pile much more talent onto the cavs, they were loaded to the brim this year, they are gonna have to rebuild with better fitting pieces. the real problem i feel is mike brown, he is not a competent coach. there is still no offense, this is something that everyone says every year when it gets to the playoffs but he never gets fired...

[KAJ=GOAT]

every year lebrons supporting cast gets stronger and stronger, i dont think you can pile much more talent onto the cavs, they were loaded to the brim this year, they are gonna have to rebuild with better fitting pieces. the real problem i feel is mike brown, he is not a competent coach. there is still no offense, this is something that everyone says every year when it gets to the playoffs but he never gets fired...


Exactly.

When Z came back, Cleveland raised its fist like it won something.

Now,

"the teammates suck, Lebron needs help".

[LBJMVP]

Pretty much this.

yall act like this is the first time this happened...
look at dallas when they were upset, phoenix when nash won mvp, they won the most games. and lets remeber, 3 of clevelands 5 starters are 34 or older. the add Z. this isnt a supporting cast that gets you to a championship so don't even say that. the bench sucked to cause brown refused to pick 4 players and only play them.

championship teams
dwight, lewis, barnes, carter, nelson
perkins, garnett, pierce, allen, rondo,
bynum, gasol, artest, kobe, fisher (if kobe played for cleveland they would be a 7 seed or less)



what need to be done by next year for cleveland
sign and trade for a bosh and sign a decent shooting guard.

bosh, hickson, james, (shooting guard), williams

[insidehoops]

Anytime someone brings up Kobe/Lebron, a majority of Lebron supporters instantly pull the supporting cast excuse.

It's not an "excuse." It's called talking basketball and being an honest fan who watches the NBA and discusses what actually happened in the games.

[insidehoops]

Exactly.

When Z came back, Cleveland raised its fist like it won something.

Now,

"the teammates suck, Lebron needs help".

And why do you think that is?

Do you think it's because people watched the games, and noticed that Ilgauskas can barely move, Antawn Jamison was awful, and LeBron did, in fact, need more help, especially considering his elbow had issues?

[LBJMVP]

It's not an "excuse." It's called talking basketball and being an honest fan who watches the NBA and discusses what actually happened in the games.

isnt an excuse... kobe get shaq in his prim fox, fisher in his prime, glen rice and wins. he loses all those players and barely makes the playoffs.
gets gasol, ariza, fisher back and wins again. adds artest and is a contender.
lebron gets shaq at the worst he has ever been, a new 34 year old shooting guard that played for the israeli league, a 34 year old antwan jamison, and jamario moon who could barely make it to the nba....

that is no excuse my friend.

[KAJ=GOAT]

And why do you think that is?

Do you think it's because people watched the games, and noticed that Ilgauskas can barely move, Antawn Jamison was awful, and LeBron did, in fact, need more help, especially considering his elbow had issues?


Why do I think what is?

That James fans thought they won it all when the Jamison trade went through and they got Z back?

I don't know, you'll have to address them.


This is the thing.

Just a few weeks ago, here on this board, quite a few people proclaimed the Cavs as favorites to win it all.

We heard not a peep about the teams deficiencies.

Suddenly,

Lebron is playing with Smush Parker and Kwame Brown.


Spare me.

[insidehoops]

Why do I think what is?

That James fans thought they won it all when the Jamison trade went through and they got Z back?

I don't know, you'll have to address them.


This is the thing.

Just a few weeks ago, here on this board, quite a few people proclaimed the Cavs as favorites to win it all.

We heard not a peep about the teams deficiencies.

Suddenly,

Lebron is playing with Smush Parker and Kwame Brown.


Spare me.

Several key members of LeBron's supporting cast put up disappointing performances in the playoffs.

What about that confuses or troubles you?

You appear to just be a dishonest, biased fan who only posts to promote your agenda rather than to have real basketball discussion

[jrong]

And why do you think that is?

Do you think it's because people watched the games, and noticed that Ilgauskas can barely move, Antawn Jamison was awful, and LeBron did, in fact, need more help, especially considering his elbow had issues?

Come on. Before Game 5, the Cavs looked like the better team. I remember watching Game 4 thinking that Rondo had to play two more games like that for the Celts to win.

And Game 5 was in the balance until the second half. LeBron's teammates were waiting for him to lead them. He chose not to. I even can't say he had a bad game because that presupposes that he actually tried to have a good one. Like I said in the other thread, he essentially just didn't show up for work that night.

If Boston goes on and wins the championship, every Cavs fan, James fan, NBA fan, and sports fan will spend time wondering this summer what might have happened if LeBron hadn't decided to take the day off that day....

[qrich]

Baron Davis - Eric Gordon - LeBron - Blake Griffin - Chris Kaman with a bench unit of Mike Taylor - Eddie House - Quentin Richardson - Rasual Butler - Craig Smith - Sofoklis Schorsianitis - DeAndre Jordan :rockon:

[The_Yearning]

insidehoops is a LBJ fan...80% of his post for the past week has been defending LBJ...c'mon now son

[gasolina]

and jamario moon who could barely make it to the nba....

that is no excuse my friend.
Wow, a week ago I'm very sure I read somewhere in ISH that "the Cavs are so deep, we have Jamario Moon who was a starter in Toronto and couldn't even find minutes on our rotation!! :rockon: "

[LBJMVP]

Why do I think what is?

That James fans thought they won it all when the Jamison trade went through and they got Z back?

I don't know, you'll have to address them.


This is the thing.

Just a few weeks ago, here on this board, quite a few people proclaimed the Cavs as favorites to win it all.

We heard not a peep about the teams deficiencies.

Suddenly,

Lebron is playing with Smush Parker and Kwame Brown.


Spare me.

yah, kobe didnt have a good to 4 years ago and lebron had an overrated one now.

[PowerGlove]

Wow, a week ago I'm very sure I read somewhere in ISH that "the Cavs are so deep, we have Jamario Moon who was a starter in Toronto and couldn't even find minutes on our rotation!! :rockon: "
AT the same time, we all know that Jamario Moon has a very limited skill set. I understand what you're trying to say, but quoting posters gets you nowhere. I know that you are a level headed poster and that you watch games and know better than that.

[RedBlackAttack]

insidehoops is a LBJ fan...80% of his post for the past week has been defending LBJ...c'mon now son
Maybe because 100 percent of trolls ruining his message board have devoted their time to bagging on James and the Cavs? It is the same reason that all of the old regulars have fled to the OTC. I tried to come back and discuss actual basketball on this board during these playoffs... I really did. But, it is threads like these that keep good posters away.

InsideHoops recognizes that and he is letting you know. It has nothing to do with being a Cavs fan or a LeBron fan. It has everything to do with watching a board that used to be based around real basketball discussion turn into a place where agendas trump all and hero worship is the name of the game.

[ShaqAttack3234]

isnt an excuse... kobe get shaq in his prim fox, fisher in his prime, glen rice and wins. he loses all those players and barely makes the playoffs.
gets gasol, ariza, fisher back and wins again. adds artest and is a contender.
lebron gets shaq at the worst he has ever been, a new 34 year old shooting guard that played for the israeli league, a 34 year old antwan jamison, and jamario moon who could barely make it to the nba....

that is no excuse my friend.

Um, Rice was a washed up, inefficient shooter/scorer when the Lakers won with him. In the finals he averaged 11.5 ppg, 2.7 rpg and 1.5 apg on 40% shooting. For the playoffs, he averaged something like 12/4/2 on 41% shooting.

Fisher in his prime was nothing special. Smart defender, but not a lockdown defender, inefficient, streaky shooter and really a combo guard because he never had the playmaking skills of a true point guard. Fox, was a great role player, but that's all he was, and not a real 3rd scorer either. Good defender, solid passer and a smart player. Lebron has already played with plenty of players better than Fox or Fisher. Hell, Fisher shot 36% in the 2002 playoffs and less than 35% in the 2000 season.

[Phong]

insidehoops is a LBJ fan...80% of his post for the past week has been defending LBJ...c'mon now sonWere was insidehoops when threads pop out everyday to hate on other players? Nowhere. But now that LeBron is getting blamed he has to come out of the closet and throw a tantrum and talking about how bad this board is for discussing bball.

You would hope an admin would react the same way in any circumstances.

[LBJMVP]

Um, Rice was a washed up, inefficient shooter/scorer when the Lakers won with him. In the finals he averaged 11.5 ppg, 2.7 rpg and 1.5 apg on 40% shooting. For the playoffs, he averaged something like 12/4/2 on 41% shooting.

Fisher in his prime was nothing special. Smart defender, but not a lockdown defender, inefficient, streaky shooter and really a combo guard because he never had the playmaking skills of a true point guard. Fox, was a great role player, but that's all he was, and not a real 3rd scorer either. Good defender, solid passer and a smart player. Lebron has already played with plenty of players better than Fox or Fisher. Hell, Fisher shot 36% in the 2002 playoffs and less than 35% in the 2000 season.


they didnt win in 2002 and you forgot about shaq who was the team leader... 12 4 and 2 isnt bad for a guard/forward... better than what lebron got from mo. and rick fox was the guy who played the athlete with the smelly feet in holes :bowdown:

[ShaqAttack3234]

they didnt win in 2002 and you forgot about shaq who was the team leader... 12 4 and 2 isnt bad for a guard/forward... better than what lebron got from mo. and rick fox was the guy who played the athlete with the smelly feet in holes :bowdown:

No, actually, Mo had played better in the playoffs each year witht he Cavs than Rice did in 2000. In the 2009 playoffs, Mo averaged 16/3/4 on 41% shooting in the playoffs and 14/3/5 again on 41% shooting this season. Definitely better than Rice's 12/4/2 on 41%.

Atleast Mo could make plays for his teammates, Rice in his prime was an excellent shooter/scorer, but by 2000, he wasn't even great at that and so he was far from a great player.

And yes, playing with prime Shaq was a luxuary Kobe had and Lebron didn't, I'm just pointing out that those Laker teams weren't stacked. They had the best player in the league(Shaq) and in 2001 and arguably 2002, Kobe was top 5 as well, if not, he was close. The rest of the players were role players, not a legit 3rd scorer.

I'm not comparing Kobe's rings with Shaq to Lebron because Kobe was the number 2 guy, but we can't just ignore his amazing 2001 playoff run? Yes, he was the number 2 guy, but during the playoffs, he was the second best player in the entire playoffs and because of the dominance of that duo(and Kobe deserves a ton of credit), they went 15-1.

Kobe is definitely more accomplished than Lebron right now. I think Lebron has been a better individual player than Kobe ever was the last 2 seasons, though.

And yes, the Lakers did won in 2002, they won in 2000, 2001 and 2002.

[LBJMVP]

No, actually, Mo had played better in the playoffs each year witht he Cavs than Rice did in 2000. In the 2009 playoffs, Mo averaged 16/3/4 on 41% shooting in the playoffs and 14/3/5 again on 41% shooting this season. Definitely better than Rice's 12/4/2 on 41%.

Atleast Mo could make plays for his teammates, Rice in his prime was an excellent shooter/scorer, but by 2000, he wasn't even great at that and so he was far from a great player.

And yes, playing with prime Shaq was a luxuary Kobe had and Lebron didn't, I'm just pointing out that those Laker teams weren't stacked. They had the best player in the league(Shaq) and in 2001 and arguably 2002, Kobe was top 5 as well, if not, he was close. The rest of the players were role players, not a legit 3rd scorer.

I'm not comparing Kobe's rings with Shaq to Lebron because Kobe was the number 2 guy, but we can't just ignore his amazing 2001 playoff run? Yes, he was the number 2 guy, but during the playoffs, he was the second best player in the entire playoffs and because of the dominance of that duo(and Kobe deserves a ton of credit), they went 15-1.

Kobe is definitely more accomplished than Lebron right now. I think Lebron has been a better individual player than Kobe ever was the last 2 seasons, though.

And yes, the Lakers did won in 2002, they won in 2000, 2001 and 2002.

what about robert horry and ron harper?

[RedBlackAttack]

If you want to compare 2003-06 Kobe to LeBron at his best, I can live with it. I personally don't think that Kobe has ever been as good -- individually -- as LeBron has been for the last 2-3 years, but an argument could be made for Kobe during those years when his scoring averages really exploded.

However, comparing a 2000-01 Kobe to current LeBron? There is absolutely no comparison. Yes... Kobe was on some championship teams with one of the best centers of all-time in his prime and he had a nice playoff run as the No. 2 guy, but Bryant was still in the beginning stages of his career and had just begun to scrape the surface on his talent.

Regardless of what happened against Boston, LeBron had an amazing individual season. I've only seen one or two perimeter players that have displayed his kind of night-in night-out brilliance this past year (Jordan and maybe Bird). Running into the meat-grinder that is the Celtics is not going to change that.

Kobe is an all-time great player. There is no denying that. But, he wasn't being asked to carry a team in those early years and there is literally no comparison between what he did on those Lakers teams and what LeBron is asked to do on these Cleveland teams (even when his cast is playing up to par).

[JMT]

1. A coach who will run an actual NBA quality offense, which means LeBron no longer plays Point Forward.

2. A legit PG. Mo Williams isn't it. Not an All Star, but a competent outside shooter to take the pressure off when the clock is running out. Even more important, he has to be a decent on-ball defender, because...

3. LeBron is always going to have difficulty playing with bigs that clog the lane on offense. That's a big part of why Shaq didn't have the impact they hoped for. Z could at least score from 15 feet. As much as I hate the 7' jump shooter, one that can occupy some space defensively and keep the lane clear on offense is a must. But that type of 'soft' big usually is a weak defender as well. Hence, #2 above.

The rest of the roster is good enough to win with. Jamison is a pro; once he gets to go through camp with this team, he'll be a smoother fit. He's a good locker room guy too. His approach will be much more positive once The Big Distraction has ridden off into the sunset. Sideshow Bob, Delonte, Mo, etc can all play roles.

James has to get better. Become a better outsiude shooter (which he has done to this point in his career), though not with the focus on the 3. Mid-range game. He's already 7 years in the league, and his body type will just get bigger and thicker, and his speed will diminish. He can dominate from 15-18 feet, and maybe actually post someone up sometime, if he develops the skill set.

[Doranku]

What I don't get is this "Jamison is nowhere near as good as Gasol" excuse. I agree that Gasol is better (obviously) than Jamison, but like others have said, the dude was putting up 21/9 before he came to Cleveland.

AND, I've read many times from some of the SAME PEOPLE making this argument that LeBron now is far better than Kobe has ever been. So wouldn't Gasol's advantage over Jamison balance out with LeBron's advantage over Kobe if that were the case? :confusedshrug:

[LA_Showtime]

It would be a lot easier to support LeBron James had he not disappeared in the Boston series. Why give him better teammates if he's not going to show up for multiple games?

[MagicalLA]

A true second option, neither Mo, Jamison or actual Shaq are second options, third at best.

Get Bosh, Amare or some of those and he will win some chips.

[ZenMaster]

Um, Rice was a washed up, inefficient shooter/scorer when the Lakers won with him. In the finals he averaged 11.5 ppg, 2.7 rpg and 1.5 apg on 40% shooting. For the playoffs, he averaged something like 12/4/2 on 41% shooting.

Fisher in his prime was nothing special. Smart defender, but not a lockdown defender, inefficient, streaky shooter and really a combo guard because he never had the playmaking skills of a true point guard. Fox, was a great role player, but that's all he was, and not a real 3rd scorer either. Good defender, solid passer and a smart player. Lebron has already played with plenty of players better than Fox or Fisher. Hell, Fisher shot 36% in the 2002 playoffs and less than 35% in the 2000 season.

Funny, Rice was the guy who took and made the most 3 pointers for the Lakers that post season. He was 2nd in percentage at .418 just after Fox who hit it at a very nice .462

In that post season Rice had a TS% of .533, 4th best on the Lakers and 2 spots ahead for Kobe who shot a TS% .517 good enough for 6th on the Lakers in scoring efficiency.

Rice was also 3rd in attempted and made FT's for LA in that playoff run.

Rice was not inefficient for the Lakers, he made the shots he was brought in to make (3pt spot up shoots) at a very good rate.

As for Derek Fisher:

3rd on the Lakers in TS% at .550 in 2000 playoffs
1st on the Lakers in TS% at .618 in 2001 playoffs
2002 playoffs was pretty bad at TS% of .501, just a tad worse than Kobe who was at .511 TS%

[LBJMVP]

What I don't get is this "Jamison is nowhere near as good as Gasol" excuse. I agree that Gasol is better (obviously) than Jamison, but like others have said, the dude was putting up 21/9 before he came to Cleveland.

AND, I've read many times from some of the SAME PEOPLE making this argument that LeBron now is far better than Kobe has ever been. So wouldn't Gasol's advantage over Jamison balance out with LeBron's advantage over Kobe if that were the case? :confusedshrug:

no it doesnt come close to averaging out. yah you stats are obsiously gonna drop when the team your playing for has lebron instead of a team that doesnt care what happens or what you do...

[RedBlackAttack]

What I don't get is this "Jamison is nowhere near as good as Gasol" excuse. I agree that Gasol is better (obviously) than Jamison, but like others have said, the dude was putting up 21/9 before he came to Cleveland.

AND, I've read many times from some of the SAME PEOPLE making this argument that LeBron now is far better than Kobe has ever been. So wouldn't Gasol's advantage over Jamison balance out with LeBron's advantage over Kobe if that were the case? :confusedshrug:
1. The Lakers are a more complete team than the Cavs. They are the longest team in the league and it is very difficult for anyone in the NBA to matchup with. It isn't just Gasol being the league's best No. 2 player, it is also the trees that they have dotting their entire frontcourt.

2. Mike Brown did not use Jamison correctly, especially in the playoffs. He became almost exclusively a jump-shooter and it wasn't due to anything that LeBron did or didn't do. It was clearly the game-plan for Jamison to stand out on the perimeter and chuck up contested 17-footers for an entire series. He can make those shots occasionally, but that isn't his best, let alone only skill.

3. The Lakers haven't played the Celtics. Why don't we reserve all of these comparisons to what they have and haven't done in the playoffs until they face a common opponent (which I have a sneaking suspicion will happen). As you may recall, Kobe/Lakers didn't have all that much success a couple of years ago when they met the Celtics and I actually think Boston is playing better now than they were then, because they are completely healthy and Rondo is light years better now than he was in 2008.

Kobe has had a nice playoff run as have the Lakers, but do you really think that the Cavs/LeBron wouldn't have had similar success against OKC, Utah, and Phoenix as opposed to a team like Boston? There is no doubt that the Cavs got a very unlucky draw with Boston slipping to the 4 spot.

[LBJMVP]

Funny, Rice was the guy who took and made the most 3 pointers for the Lakers that post season. He was 2nd in percentage at .418 just after Fox who hit it at a very nice .462

In that post season Rice had a TS% of .533, 4th best on the Lakers and 2 spots ahead for Kobe who shot a TS% .517 good enough for 6th on the Lakers in scoring efficiency.

Rice was also 3rd in attempted and made FT's for LA in that playoff run.

Rice was not inefficient for the Lakers, he made the shots he was brought in to make (3pt spot up shoots) at a very good rate.

As for Derek Fisher:

3rd on the Lakers in TS% at .550 in 2000 playoffs
1st on the Lakers in TS% at .618 in 2001 playoffs
2002 playoffs was pretty bad at TS% of .501, just a tad worse than Kobe who was at .511 TS%

exactly, kobe had a great supporting cast during the run. i dont know how anyone can argue anyway else. you dont win three in a row with shaq kobe and an ok cast.

[Doranku]

1. The Lakers are a more complete team than the Cavs. They are the longest team in the league and it is very difficult for anyone in the NBA to matchup with. It isn't just Gasol being the league's best No. 2 player, it is also the trees that they have dotting their entire frontcourt.

2. Mike Brown did not use Jamison correctly, especially in the playoffs. He became almost exclusively a jump-shooter and it wasn't due to anything that LeBron did or didn't do. It was clearly the game-plan for Jamison to stand out on the perimeter and chuck up contested 17-footers for an entire series. He can make those shots occasionally, but that isn't his best, let alone only skill.

3. The Lakers haven't played the Celtics. Why don't we reserve all of these comparisons to what they have and haven't done in the playoffs until they face a common opponent (which I have a sneaking suspicion will happen). As you may recall, Kobe/Lakers didn't have all that much success a couple of years ago when they met the Celtics and I actually think Boston is playing better now than they were then, because they are completely healthy and Rondo is light years better now than he was in 2008.

Kobe has had a nice playoff run as have the Lakers, but do you really think that the Cavs/LeBron wouldn't have had similar success against OKC, Utah, and Phoenix as opposed to a team like Boston? There is no doubt that the Cavs got a very unlucky draw with Boston slipping to the 4 spot.

Both Utah and Phoenix have the same advantages as the Celtics did over Cleveland at the PF/PG spots. I don't think they're as complete as the Celtics are by any means, but the Celtics took care of Cleveland rather handily and looked like the better team for 5 of the 6 games. That being said, in particular I think the Utah series would be closer than you make it seem.

It's definitely plausible, if not likely at this point that we will see a Lakers/C's rematch this year. So I will reserve all comparisons until the end of that series.

[LBJMVP]

Both Utah and Phoenix have the same advantages as the Celtics did over Cleveland at the PF/PG spots. I don't think they're as complete as the Celtics are by any means, but the Celtics took care of Cleveland rather handily and looked like the better team for 5 of the 6 games. That being said, in particular I think the Utah series would be closer than you make it seem.

It's definitely plausible, if not likely at this point that we will see a Lakers/C's rematch this year. So I will reserve all comparisons until the end of that series.

well cleveland got unlucky with the pg matchup and deron williams would be another problem... but that the only thing stopping cleveland from beating utah 4-1

[LA_Showtime]

:oldlol: @ people acting like the Lakers were stacked. They were pretty talented for the first run, but by the second year they were literally carried on the backs of Shaq and Kobe. Fisher also played out of his mind. :D

[RedBlackAttack]

Utah isn't in the same stratosphere defensively as the Celtics.

[Doranku]

Utah isn't in the same stratosphere defensively as the Celtics.

Never said they were. I even mentioned that Utah and Phoenix are nowhere near as complete as the Celtics. Just saying I think it would have been a competitive series, and definitely not a sweep.

[RedBlackAttack]

Never said they were. I even mentioned that Utah and Phoenix are nowhere near as complete as the Celtics. Just saying I think it would have been a competitive series, and definitely not a sweep.
I don't think that the Cavs would sweep Phoenix or Utah, either. That wasn't my point. I was simply making the statement that it is premature to say that the Cavs folded or that LeBron didn't do all he could to pull his team past Boston. After watching what the Cs did to Orlando yesterday, I'm coming to the realization that Boston may be the best team in the league at the moment.

Yes... The Cavs were outplayed for five of the six games. But, did that have more to do with what LeBron and the Cavs weren't doing (as some are suggesting) or with what Boston was doing?

I saw Orlando taken completely out of their game yesterday the same way that Cleveland was in Games 1 and 2. Is it just a coincidence that teams play poorly against Boston or do the Cs make you play poorly by taking away your best options?

I do not think that the Cavs would have breezed through OKC, Utah, and Phoenix without a hiccup, but I highly doubt that they would be dominated by any of those teams in the fashion they were against Boston. If I were a Lakers' fan right now, I would be very weary of mocking the Cavs for looking bad against the Cs.

I do think the Lakers are better than the Cavs, but Boston is scary... Flat-out scary.

[The GM]

LeBron has to get a legit jumpshot and needs to understand he can't be ball dominate to win in the playoffs. If he had a jumper he could work off the ball more which would help his game and also help get his teammates more involved during the course of a game. To answer the quetsion though, he had a cast that could have won but his basketball isn't as high as every says it was because he would have figured out that he needed to adjust his game to accomadate Jamison & Shaq so they become more of forces on the offensive end. The Nets would be a good setting for him, they have Brook Lopez who is learning to become a dominate center on both ends of the floor. They also have Devin Harris who is more a scorer then a PG that could help with that scoing, along with young players in Terrance Williams, Courtney Lee, YI & Douglas-Roberts which is a young core that can only get better and if they could pick up another big man maybe Bosh if the cap room works they would be in business from now till future with LeBron, Bosh, Lopez and this is all assuming they don't get the #1 pick tonight.

[ShaqAttack3234]

:oldlol: @ people acting like the Lakers were stacked. They were pretty talented for the first run, but by the second year they were literally carried on the backs of Shaq and Kobe. Fisher also played out of his mind. :D

Ehhh, far from stacked in 2000. Ac Green was well below average for a starting PF then, as much as I liked Ron Harper, while he was a good role player, he was definitely a below average starting guard then as well.


what about robert horry and ron harper?

Harper was a solid role player, but he couldn't score and he was a good not great passer. Basically, he was a smart player who knew the triangle and had championship experience. That was most of his value. Yes, he played solid defense, but averaging 7 ppg on 40% shooting is well below average.


Funny, Rice was the guy who took and made the most 3 pointers for the Lakers that post season. He was 2nd in percentage at .418 just after Fox who hit it at a very nice .462

In that post season Rice had a TS% of .533, 4th best on the Lakers and 2 spots ahead for Kobe who shot a TS% .517 good enough for 6th on the Lakers in scoring efficiency.

Rice was also 3rd in attempted and made FT's for LA in that playoff run.

Rice was not inefficient for the Lakers, he made the shots he was brought in to make (3pt spot up shoots) at a very good rate.

As for Derek Fisher:

3rd on the Lakers in TS% at .550 in 2000 playoffs
1st on the Lakers in TS% at .618 in 2001 playoffs
2002 playoffs was pretty bad at TS% of .501, just a tad worse than Kobe who was at .511 TS%

A TS% of 53% especially when you're only averaging 12/4/2 is pretty poor. And in the regular season, Rice shot only 43% from the field and made just 1.1 three per game. If you're a spot up 3 point shooter, you only shoot 43% from the field and make just 1.1 threes per game despite playing starters minutes, then that's not exactly impressive. Mo Williams makes more than twice as many threes per game as Rice did in the 2000 season, shoots a better % from the field and he sets up his teammates. There's a reason why they traded Rice for nothing, had Fox take his place in the lineup and they still won 2 more rings. Fox was less of a scorer, but unlike Rice, impacted the game in other ways.

As far as the 2000 playoffs, I don't care what Fisher's TS%. He was a non factor, he averaged just 5/1/2 and was the Lakers 4th guard behind Kobe, Harper and even Brian Shaw(who I give credit for the clutch shots in game 7 vs Portland) as well as those alley oops to Shaq or "the Shaw-Shaq Redemption". Not to mention that Fisher shot below 35% in the regular season.

As far as the 2002 playoffs, Fisher was bad, period, he shot under 36%. He was great in his role in the 2001 playoffs, I'll give him that. He earned that ring, but the other rings, they could have easily won with anyone in his plac. He was pretty good in the 2002 and 2003 regular seasons, though.

[hawksdogsbraves]

I think this lineup could get it done.

Rose
Redd
James
Bosh
Noah

[RoseCity07]

He needs a big that doesn't get shut down by KG, and can defend.

This. Doesn't help that Mo Williams is a choker, but really, should be too hard to find a solid point guard after getting a star PF.

[Bigsmoke]

younger center.....

[Replay32]

Funny, Rice was the guy who took and made the most 3 pointers for the Lakers that post season. He was 2nd in percentage at .418 just after Fox who hit it at a very nice .462

In that post season Rice had a TS% of .533, 4th best on the Lakers and 2 spots ahead for Kobe who shot a TS% .517 good enough for 6th on the Lakers in scoring efficiency.

Rice was also 3rd in attempted and made FT's for LA in that playoff run.

Rice was not inefficient for the Lakers, he made the shots he was brought in to make (3pt spot up shoots) at a very good rate.

As for Derek Fisher:

3rd on the Lakers in TS% at .550 in 2000 playoffs
1st on the Lakers in TS% at .618 in 2001 playoffs
2002 playoffs was pretty bad at TS% of .501, just a tad worse than Kobe who was at .511 TS%

This is an excellent post. I'm a laker fan who watched that entire season (2000)including the playoffs. And although Rice wasn't the same Rice from the Hornets (elbow injury and wasn't the same), he hit so many clutch shots in that playoff run. Rice was definitely a big shot maker and I remember kobe saying the same thing on a radio show that yr too.

Also Fox was a good clutch 3 point shooting and a lot of times was assigned to shut the best wing players down, esp when kobe wasn't getting the job done. He was very valuable to the lakers title run. I don't know if ShaqAttack actually experienced those years as they happened or if he's too young to remember.

Sometimes it's not how many shots you make, but when you make them. So using percentages don't tell the value of what Rice brought to that championship team.

[ZenMaster]

A TS% of 53% especially when you're only averaging 12/4/2 is pretty poor. And in the regular season, Rice shot only 43% from the field and made just 1.1 three per game. If you're a spot up 3 point shooter, you only shoot 43% from the field and make just 1.1 threes per game despite playing starters minutes, then that's not exactly impressive. Mo Williams makes more than twice as many threes per game as Rice did in the 2000 season, shoots a better % from the field and he sets up his teammates. There's a reason why they traded Rice for nothing, had Fox take his place in the lineup and they still won 2 more rings. Fox was less of a scorer, but unlike Rice, impacted the game in other ways.



A TS of 53% good enough. And now you want to go to the regular season, and you mention the FG% again because you want Rice to look bad. For the regular season Rice had a TS% of .551 which would have been 2nd best on the team that year if it wasn't for Tyronn Lue playing 8 games.

It's not only his shooting in those playoffs, you have to remember he took and made the 3rd most FT's behind behind Shaq and Kobe as well.

TS% is what matters, FG% is not.

[ginobli2311]

No, actually, Mo had played better in the playoffs each year witht he Cavs than Rice did in 2000. In the 2009 playoffs, Mo averaged 16/3/4 on 41% shooting in the playoffs and 14/3/5 again on 41% shooting this season. Definitely better than Rice's 12/4/2 on 41%.

Atleast Mo could make plays for his teammates, Rice in his prime was an excellent shooter/scorer, but by 2000, he wasn't even great at that and so he was far from a great player.

And yes, playing with prime Shaq was a luxuary Kobe had and Lebron didn't, I'm just pointing out that those Laker teams weren't stacked. They had the best player in the league(Shaq) and in 2001 and arguably 2002, Kobe was top 5 as well, if not, he was close. The rest of the players were role players, not a legit 3rd scorer.

I'm not comparing Kobe's rings with Shaq to Lebron because Kobe was the number 2 guy, but we can't just ignore his amazing 2001 playoff run? Yes, he was the number 2 guy, but during the playoffs, he was the second best player in the entire playoffs and because of the dominance of that duo(and Kobe deserves a ton of credit), they went 15-1.

Kobe is definitely more accomplished than Lebron right now. I think Lebron has been a better individual player than Kobe ever was the last 2 seasons, though.

And yes, the Lakers did won in 2002, they won in 2000, 2001 and 2002.

are you serious? do you know how many big shots that robert horry and fisher made? what about the great defense that both of those players played as well. dude.....you need to check your facts. the lakers had the best player in the game in shaq. one of the ten best in kobe. the best coach of all time. veteran leadership and big time clutch shot makers and defenders. THEY WERE SO STACKED. THE FACT THAT THEY ONLY WON THREE TITLES WITH THAT CORE GROUP OVER A 6 YEAR PERIOD IS A JOKE.

Stop playing revisionist history. If Lebron ever lost if he was on the same team as dwight howard over the last 3 years (which would never happen by the way) ISH would shut down for a month with flaming threads. Which is laughable....because Howard is maybe half as good as Shaq was for the lakers titles and mike brown is maybe 5% the coach phil jackson is.

JUST STOP IT.

[ShaqAttack3234]

A TS of 53% good enough. And now you want to go to the regular season, and you mention the FG% again because you want Rice to look bad. For the regular season Rice had a TS% of .551 which would have been 2nd best on the team that year if it wasn't for Tyronn Lue playing 8 games.

It's not only his shooting in those playoffs, you have to remember he took and made the 3rd most FT's behind behind Shaq and Kobe as well.

TS% is what matters, FG% is not.

FG%, particularly when it's as poor as Rice means he was inconsistent and had a lotf of bad games. When shooting/scoring is the only thing you bring, that's not very good. Rice was expendable and this was proven the next 2 seasons.

[InfiniteBaskets]

I don't think that the Cavs would sweep Phoenix or Utah, either. That wasn't my point. I was simply making the statement that it is premature to say that the Cavs folded or that LeBron didn't do all he could to pull his team past Boston. After watching what the Cs did to Orlando yesterday, I'm coming to the realization that Boston may be the best team in the league at the moment.

Yes... The Cavs were outplayed for five of the six games. But, did that have more to do with what LeBron and the Cavs weren't doing (as some are suggesting) or with what Boston was doing?

I saw Orlando taken completely out of their game yesterday the same way that Cleveland was in Games 1 and 2. Is it just a coincidence that teams play poorly against Boston or do the Cs make you play poorly by taking away your best options?

I do not think that the Cavs would have breezed through OKC, Utah, and Phoenix without a hiccup, but I highly doubt that they would be dominated by any of those teams in the fashion they were against Boston. If I were a Lakers' fan right now, I would be very weary of mocking the Cavs for looking bad against the Cs.

I do think the Lakers are better than the Cavs, but Boston is scary... Flat-out scary.

If LeBron didn't have any elbow issues and played as aggressively and as efficiently as Wade did against the C's I believe that Cavs would've won. I still think that the Magic will end up winning the series against Boston. Rondo is pretty much the heart of this Boston team. If you take him off it, I don't see the Celtics sniffing a top four seed in the playoffs.

But I'm not going to argue that the Celtics aren't playing the best ball they've played all season but the Spurs played the best basketball they've played all season against the Mavs and then died out quickly next round. I'm just saying that the Cavs came up against the Celtics at the wrong time, and we might see a completely different Celtic team later in the playoffs.

[sixer6ad]

Great Topic and worth anyone's time: He needs...

- a point guard who is point guard first who can lead, be vocal, set up teammates but knock down every open jumper. He needed Eric Snow to have a jump shot.

- his 2 must be a flat out scorer who can knock down jumpers off LBJ penetration but also be a big enough threat to dribble penetrate, draw the defense and score

- his 5 must do 2 things: catch the ball and finish

- Andy would be his perfect 4 if his jump shot was more consistent

[ShaqAttack3234]

are you serious? do you know how many big shots that robert horry and fisher made? what about the great defense that both of those players played as well. dude.....you need to check your facts. the lakers had the best player in the game in shaq. one of the ten best in kobe. the best coach of all time. veteran leadership and big time clutch shot makers and defenders. THEY WERE SO STACKED. THE FACT THAT THEY ONLY WON THREE TITLES WITH THAT CORE GROUP OVER A 6 YEAR PERIOD IS A JOKE.

Stop playing revisionist history. If Lebron ever lost if he was on the same team as dwight howard over the last 3 years (which would never happen by the way) ISH would shut down for a month with flaming threads. Which is laughable....because Howard is maybe half as good as Shaq was for the lakers titles and mike brown is maybe 5% the coach phil jackson is.

JUST STOP IT.

Stacked? :roll: They only had 3 scorers in double digits each year and Fisher was TRASH 2 out of the 3 seasons. Horry hit some clutch shots, but on a game to game basis, he wasn't much of a threat. That team was NOT stacked. They didn't even have a legit number 3 guy, just role players after their duo. Certainly nobody else anywhere NEAR all-star caliber.

An example of a stacked team would be the 2005 Spurs, the 2005-2007 Suns, the 2002 Kings ect.

[ZenMaster]

FG%, particularly when it's as poor as Rice means he was inconsistent and had a lotf of bad games. When shooting/scoring is the only thing you bring, that's not very good. Rice was expendable and this was proven the next 2 seasons.

Yet he still found a way to be the 2nd most effective scorer for the Lakers that regular season.

Defense is another matter, but you called him an inefficient scorer, which wasn't the case.

And that 2000 team was stacked defensively, they where #1.
The year after with Harper, AC and Rice gone they where #21

[ShaqAttack3234]

Yet he still found a way to be the 2nd most effective scorer for the Lakers that regular season.

Defense is another matter, but you called him an inefficient scorer, which wasn't the case.

And that 2000 team was stacked defensively, they where #1.
The year after with Harper, AC and Rice gone they where #21

I don't care much about TS%, he shot 43%, wasn't lightning it up on 3s and he wasn't living at the line. I watched those games and he wasn't an efficient scorer.

Defensively, they were very good in 2000. Harper and Kobe were a very good defensive backcourt, although Rice and Green were liabilities defensively, but Horry played solid defense off the bench and Shaq was dominant in the middle. I'm not sure I'd call them "stacked" defensively when only 3 out of their 5 starters were even average defenders. People underestimate Shaq's impact at that end, that had a lot to do with their defense.

Chemistry and injuries were the problem in the 2000-2001 regular season. They dominated the end of the regular season and the playoffs when they got healthy and found some chemistry.

[OnceInADECADE]

Pg Billups
Sg James Harden
Sf Lebron
Pf Pau Gasol
C Perkins

6= Jason Terry

/thread

[Jasper]

So now its free agency, please give me a serious answer as to what cast does he need, to the point no more excuses, that if his team fails in the playoffs then its gonna be obvious the problem is him.

Lots of good answers in the above posts.

Many have stated a 2nd legit batman/robin option , and others have stated a legit coach (all fair and true)

I believe his frontcourt line was and is the best he could have on a team to fit Lebron.
Where the Cav's failed and I stated this before the season , during jamison's trade and during the playoff's MO WILLIAMS is the weak link , and Rondo showed that to everyone , unless you were blind.
If Rondo was on the Cav's , the Cleveland fans would of seen gold rings.
--------------
A PG in the current Cav's roster would of kept the ball out of Lebron's hands 1/3 of the time, and made those low post players play as a team.
Back door cuts from Lebron , would of generated just as much or more high light reels = James Worthy.
But the PG would of also assisted Lebron in bringing up the ball , setting up plays and actually play DEFENSE.

==================
The only option is if he can't get a PG that is a team first / pass first player , he needs D-Wade (.)

Defensive stoppers like Haywood , Boozer down to Miami would be a very good start.

[Dengness9]

demanding trades shows u want to win I don't know why thats hard to understand


What an embarrassing point of view. Throwing teammates, owners, and management under the bus publicly is the worst way to come across. Kobe is lucky that Jerry West cheated for his team.

[ZenMaster]

I don't care much about TS%, he shot 43%, wasn't lightning it up on 3s and he wasn't living at the line. I watched those games and he wasn't an efficient scorer.

Defensively, they were very good in 2000. Harper and Kobe were a very good defensive backcourt, although Rice and Green were liabilities defensively, but Horry played solid defense off the bench and Shaq was dominant in the middle. I'm not sure I'd call them "stacked" defensively when only 3 out of their 5 starters were even average defenders. People underestimate Shaq's impact at that end, that had a lot to do with their defense.

Chemistry and injuries were the problem in the 2000-2001 regular season. They dominated the end of the regular season and the playoffs when they got healthy and found some chemistry.

Ehhh TS% is the best absolute best way to determine an efficient scorer. But naturally that's not as good as you remembering back 10 years to your biased opinion. That's good stupid stuff.

[LA_Showtime]

Maybe the problem isn't Mo Williams. Maybe the problem is that Rondo is really ****ing good, and he's got a lot of help to boot.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Ehhh TS% is the best absolute best way to determine an efficient scorer. But naturally that's not as good as you remembering back 10 years to your biased opinion. That's good stupid stuff.

FG% demonstrates consistency, for example, Arenas had a great TS% in 2006, but does anyone think of him as efficient? Rice really was one-dimensional and the one thing he did, he wasn't great at any more. He faded in the playoffs and he proved to be expendable.

[ZenMaster]

FG% demonstrates consistency, for example, Arenas had a great TS% in 2006, but does anyone think of him as efficient? Rice really was one-dimensional and the one thing he did, he wasn't great at any more. He faded in the playoffs and he proved to be expendable.

The problem with FG% is that it's all shots, and some guys take a lot more 3's than others, which hurts their FG% but not necessarily how many points they score.

It doesn't matter if people THINK of Arenas in 06 as efficient or not, if he had a good TS% it means he scored a lot of points compared to how many shoots he took. And that's the bottom line of offensive efficiency.

TS% takes the 3 ways you can score in basketball, 2pt FGs, 3pt FGs and FT's into one statistic, and there is no way that's not the best way of determining a players scoring contribution. Especially getting and making FT's at an efficient rate is something people forget to consider over time, but nonetheless points made at the FT line counts just as much as dunk on the highlight reel.

And hitting 3pointers at a 41% clip and being 3rd in made FTs in the playoffs isn't fading when you're the guy who takes the most 3s on the team. His job was to hit those 3's so the lane would be open for for the best scorers, he did that.

[ShaqAttack3234]

And hitting 3pointers at a 41% clip and being 3rd in made FTs in the playoffs isn't fading when you're the guy who takes the most 3s on the team. His job was to hit those 3's so the lane would be open for for the best scorers, he did that.

He averaged just 12 ppg and provided nothing else. That's not good for a 3rd scorer and a 53 TS% is far from impressive, particularly when you are a spot up shooter. I will admit that the threat of him making shots helped particularly with that starting lineup because Harper wasn't a scoring threat or a 3 point shooter, Green was good for maybe a mid-range jumper and an offensive rebound, put back or open dunk per game, Shaq did his damage inside of 10 feet and was constantly doubled and Kobe wasn't much of a 3 point threat, he did most of his damage from about 20 feet in. Actually, that was an intangible Horry brought, he didn't score much, nor was he efficient, but he did stretch the defense and his entry passes to Shaq were solid.

[It's A VC3!!!]

LeBron is kind of like young Vince Carter...all that talent and no championship to solidify himself. And that is the only reference I am making between both of them...not anything else you LeBron c0ck munchers....

[Batz]

LeBron is kind of like young Vince Carter...all that talent and no championship to solidify himself. And that is the only reference I am making between both of them...not anything else you LeBron c0ck munchers....
Young Vince was clutch and had a consistent jumper. :confusedshrug:

[The Iron Fist]

:roll:

[NBASTATMAN]

Stacked? :roll: They only had 3 scorers in double digits each year and Fisher was TRASH 2 out of the 3 seasons. Horry hit some clutch shots, but on a game to game basis, he wasn't much of a threat. That team was NOT stacked. They didn't even have a legit number 3 guy, just role players after their duo. Certainly nobody else anywhere NEAR all-star caliber.

An example of a stacked team would be the 2005 Spurs, the 2005-2007 Suns, the 2002 Kings ect.


Shaq was by far better than anyone playing today.. And just look at who they beat.. The only team that I would say was stacked with talent were the kings.. That Kings team wound up losing to the lakers with Peja playing injured.. Matter of fact the Lakers always got some sort of luck when playing.. In 2000 duncan was injured so they didn't have to face him and the defending champs.. In 2001 the second leading scorer of the Spurs was hurt and that hurt them.. In 2002 they faced the Kings with Peja out and or injured.. You also forget that they had Scott and Rice in their first title run. They had Horace grant in their second plus they had guys that could score but instead became role players like Fox and Horry..


All in all the Lakers never beat the best WCF opponent unless the other team had a injury.. Similar thing happened for the Bulls in 96 with Mcmillan injured for the Sonics.. IN 93 CEBALLOS was injured for the Suns.. And in 91 I still remember some laker players playing hurt or injured.. Alot of luck to win three straight finals..


Having great players and great role players is always the key though.. The 2004 Lakers lost and they had a super talented team with size.. Everyone predicted 70 plus wins but it never happened..

[Rose]

nice bump:lol

[PurpleChuck]

Stupid bump.:facepalm

[madmax]

All he needs is teammates, capable of hitting wide open three pointers and some hard nosed post defenders ala Varejao or Noah, who crash the boards constantly. He doesn't have any of that in this current Heat team and it's showing up in team record column. Having Wade constantly underperforming against elite teams doesn't help either - dude needs to get his act together and help Lebron there on the offensive end, instead of bricking and making turnovers in clutch time.

[christian1923]

All he needs is teammates, capable of hitting wide open three pointers and some hard nosed post defenders ala Varejao or Noah, who crash the boards constantly. He doesn't have any of that in this current Heat team and it's showing up in team record column. Having Wade constantly underperforming against elite teams doesn't help either - dude needs to get his act together and help Lebron there on the offensive end, instead of bricking and making turnovers in clutch time.

he had those exact things in clevelandd, he needs alot more than that

[madmax]

he had those exact things in clevelandd, he needs alot more than that

and he almost did it in Ceveland if not for unfortunate elbow injury and chemistry issues with his teammates. He was clearly unwell the whole postseason and still managed to post reasonably great numbers.

[dynasty1978]

Shaq was by far better than anyone playing today.. And just look at who they beat.. The only team that I would say was stacked with talent were the kings.. That Kings team wound up losing to the lakers with Peja playing injured.. Matter of fact the Lakers always got some sort of luck when playing.. In 2000 duncan was injured so they didn't have to face him and the defending champs.. In 2001 the second leading scorer of the Spurs was hurt and that hurt them.. In 2002 they faced the Kings with Peja out and or injured.. You also forget that they had Scott and Rice in their first title run. They had Horace grant in their second plus they had guys that could score but instead became role players like Fox and Horry..


All in all the Lakers never beat the best WCF opponent unless the other team had a injury.. Similar thing happened for the Bulls in 96 with Mcmillan injured for the Sonics.. IN 93 CEBALLOS was injured for the Suns.. And in 91 I still remember some laker players playing hurt or injured.. Alot of luck to win three straight finals..


Having great players and great role players is always the key though.. The 2004 Lakers lost and they had a super talented team with size.. Everyone predicted 70 plus wins but it never happened..

Um, the 2000 Blazers? That team was loaded with talent and had the scheme to neutralize Shaq at times (game 7 particularly).

Injuries are simply part of the game.
Sorry, but Derek Anderson wasn't going to save the 2001 Spurs squad from losing to the Laker juggernaut. It may have been less of a demolition, but a lost cause nonetheless.

Using your logic, you could say that the Lakers never lost during the Shaq/Kobe run unless there was an injury to their team. 2003 (Shaq's feet, Kobe torn labrum), 2004 (no PF to speak of as Mailman and Horace. G were out).

As a fan, I make no excuses for the Lakers losing nor qualify their wins.

[Ne 1]

Nice bump. :cheers:

I'm just curious as much as LeBron fans disparage his former teammates, coach, management etc. and completely blame them for his short comings, did the Cavs ever lose 4 straight games the last 2 years when he was in Cleveland?

[STATUTORY]

and he almost did it in Ceveland if not for unfortunate elbow injury and chemistry issues with his teammates. He was clearly unwell the whole postseason and still managed to post reasonably great numbers.

:roll: :roll: damn son you need to join politics cuz you spinnin shit like tapas

unfortunate elbow injury euphemisim for leQuit

chemistry issues - leTonte fuking my mom

:roll:

[step_back]

PG. Rodney Stuckey
SG. Ray Allen
SF. Lebron
PF. Kevin Love
C. Noah


I honestly think a team simular to that would best suit Lebron James.

[Heat007]

To be fair, kobe had dominating front court players. He had shaq in his prime who was better than kobe. And now kobe has the best frontcourt in the league on his team.

But LeBron has another player like him as wingmen.

Can you imagine if Kobe had weak frontcourts and had to play with Carmelo Anthony as his wingman SF? It just wouldn't fit either.

so it's very different. basketball doesn't work that way.

[KenneBell]

and he almost did it in Ceveland if not for unfortunate elbow injury and chemistry issues with his teammates. He was clearly unwell the whole postseason and still managed to post reasonably great numbers.
You can't be serious.

[IGOTGAME]

To be fair, kobe had dominating front court players. He had shaq in his prime who was better than kobe. And now kobe has the best frontcourt in the league on his team.

But LeBron has another player like him as wingmen.

Can you imagine if Kobe had weak frontcourts and had to play with Carmelo Anthony as his wingman SF? It just wouldn't fit either.

so it's very different. basketball doesn't work that way.

well, if Lebron is such a student of the game then why didnt he recognize this and go play with Rose/Boozer/Noah?

[sh0wtime]

Its not about the starpower in the starting lineup, its the team depth and complementary players that win championships.
Thats what Lebron still doesnt have or at least not to the required level in order to really dominate anybody in a 7 game series.

To best complement somebody like Lebron you need a big solider center, something like Dwight Howard and the rest in the starting lineup should be only shooters, the bench should consist of some more shooters and some rebounders, defenders, hustlers. One thing they all have to have is defense.

Giving Lebron somebody like Wade is not a good idea, because Wade is similar to Lebron, they dont complement eachother the best. There is only one ball in the court and when Lebron for example has the ball then Wade becomes like a statue and nullified because he aint a good shooter, same thing when Wade has the ball.

Which means that when Wade & Lebron play together one of them always limits himself because he has to share the ball, which means standing in the corner and not being able to either take advantage of the open distance shots you get to an effective level because you aint pure shooter.

Never understood why Lebron teamed up with Wade, its ok to have Wade & Lebron in one team but its best for them to not be used together at the same time.

Its no different than starting Steve Nash & Chris Paul at the same time, mindbogling. Heck even if Nash & Paul teamed up they would complement eachother much better than Wade & Lebron because they can actually shoot the lights out!

[Phong]

The Heat is full of scrubs. LeBron needs Chris Paul and Dwight Howard.

[tpols]

To be fair, kobe had dominating front court players. He had shaq in his prime who was better than kobe. And now kobe has the best frontcourt in the league on his team.

But LeBron has another player like him as wingmen.

Can you imagine if Kobe had weak frontcourts and had to play with Carmelo Anthony as his wingman SF? It just wouldn't fit either.

so it's very different. basketball doesn't work that way.
The main reason lebron isn't syncing with wade is because he doesn't know how to play off the ball, he can't catch and shoot, and he doesn't consistently work out of the post.. and all of those things are the things kobe has mastered and uses to be effective. Lebron is probably the most dangerous man to ever play when he's at the top of the key with a live dribble, but he isn't elite at many other spots. Of course lebron isn't meshing well with wade. He's too accostumed to playing out of those types of iso sets.

[Ne 1]

2010 Cavs after 63 games: 49-14

2011 Heat after 63 games: 43-20



Very telling.

[bluechox2]

body cast

[IGOTGAME]

Its not about the starpower in the starting lineup, its the team depth and complementary players that win championships.
Thats what Lebron still doesnt have or at least not to the required level in order to really dominate anybody in a 7 game series.

To best complement somebody like Lebron you need a big solider center, something like Dwight Howard and the rest in the starting lineup should be only shooters, the bench should consist of some more shooters and some rebounders, defenders, hustlers. One thing they all have to have is defense.

Giving Lebron somebody like Wade is not a good idea, because Wade is similar to Lebron, they dont complement eachother the best. There is only one ball in the court and when Lebron for example has the ball then Wade becomes like a statue and nullified because he aint a good shooter, same thing when Wade has the ball.

Which means that when Wade & Lebron play together one of them always limits himself because he has to share the ball, which means standing in the corner and not being able to either take advantage of the open distance shots you get to an effective level because you aint pure shooter.

Never understood why Lebron teamed up with Wade, its ok to have Wade & Lebron in one team but its best for them to not be used together at the same time.

Its no different than starting Steve Nash & Chris Paul at the same time, mindbogling. Heck even if Nash & Paul teamed up they would complement eachother much better than Wade & Lebron because they can actually shoot the lights out!


1. You sound like you are building a team around AI when you talk about Lebron. Dominant defensive center and shooters who play defense...It shouldnt be that hard to build around a player.

2. It is very different than having Steve Nash and Chris Paul on the same team. They are both small guards and would struggle on defense because they can only guard one position.

3. A true great player would realize that he is 6"8 260 and become the post threat and dominant rebounder that the team needs. But that is what a winner does, they do anything the TEAM needs, not what their LEGACY needs. You are telling me Lebron can't become a dominant post scorer? You telling me that if he stays around the rim he can't average over 10 rebounds a game? If he wants to win, HE is the one the one that has to CHANGE because he is the one most able to because of hhis unique athletic ability.

[Harion]

if Lebron becomes a post player, then they never should've gotten Bosh. now, it's Bosh and Lebron who are redundant. and Wade will still be driving to the basket and not playing true SG duties. :facepalm the reason Heat are so easy to defend is because all the opposing teams have to do is pack the paint. Wade ISO = pack the paint. Lebron ISO = pack the paint. Bosh = let him shoot mid range jumpers and live or die with it. rest of team = let them shoot 3s and live or die with it.

[thatoneblackguy]

:violin:

[pauk]

pg - lebron
sg - ray
sf - durant
pf - nowitzki
c - dwight
bench
g - nash
c - bynum
f - joe johnson
f - bargnani
g - ginobili

bron will =
average a triple double
get mvp every year
get championship every year

[YouCallILose]

a team that you could actually assemble around him that would be realistic?

PG-LeBron
SG-Ray Allen
SF-Durant
PF-Ibaka
C-Tyson Chandler


He needs great rebounders/shot blockers at the 4 and 5 and 2 great off the ball shooters at the 2 and 3.

[Grim]

He is the only player where it seems like people are so willing to give him all types of all star players.... dude is playing with Bosh and Wade. Now he needs Chris Paul and D12... lets add in JJ off the bench.... Jesus, the guy just can't get it done, period.

[IN-PAX-WE-TRUST]

Lebron needs a true low post presence. A team like this is perfect for Lebron.

PG- Billups type guy
SG- JR Smith
C- Chandler
PF- Gasol
SF- Lebron

That team would be perfect for Lebron since it gives him 3 Pt shooters and low post presence and defense/rebounding.

[Zach Morris]

It will never be enough. Put LeBron on an All-Star team and if they lose, it would be because LeBron couldn't do it all by himself. Don't you get it?

[Optimus Prime]

Obviously, having two All Stars isn't enough, as the excuses are rolling now faster than ever. It would probably take:

PG - Prime Magic
SG - Prime Jordan
SF - LeBrick
PF - Prime Tim Duncan
C - Prime Shaq

With Phil Jackson as coach.

And even then, it would never be LeBrick's fault if they lost, EVER. This thread is a funny and insightful necro because it's valid commentary on LeBrick then and now.

[nbacardDOTnet]

Obviously, having two All Stars isn't enough, as the excuses are rolling now faster than ever. It would probably take:

PG - Prime Magic
SG - Prime Jordan
SF - Prime Bird
PF - Prime Tim Duncan
C - Prime Bill Russell
6th - Robert Horry

bench - LeFraud

With Red Auerbach as coach.

And even then, it would never be LeBrick's fault if they lost, EVER. This thread is a funny and insightful necro because it's valid commentary on LeBrick then and now.

fixed =)

[icewill36]

ray allen.... (serious)

[The Iron Fist]

It will never be enough. Put LeBron on an All-Star team and if they lose, it would be because LeBron couldn't do it all by himself. Don't you get it?

Shheeiit, Lebron had all of americas best with him on the same team,

and all they got was a bronze medal.

DHo
Melo
CP
Wade
etc
etc.


and all they could get was third?

Kobe is what takes teams to the next level.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I've supported Lebron in most arguments, but :oldlol: at sh0wtime complaining about the cast.

He has another all-nba first teamer on his team who has won finals MVP and Chris Bosh who has made 6 consecutive all-star teams and made the all-nba second team, plus teammates who defend and shooters.

No, they may not be an ideal fit as far as complementing their games, but that's a loaded roster. Look at all of the best players on championship teams from the Jordan era on. MJ didn't have what Lebron has now from '91-'93 and probably not '96-'98 either, Hakeem didn't in '94 or '95, Duncan didn't in '99, '03, '05 or '07, Shaq didn't from '00-'02, Wade didn't in '06 and Kobe hasn't the last 2 years and still doesn't.

Hell, even Boston's big 3 wasn't as talented in 2008 as Miami's big 3 is. Their games fit together better, but they also sacrificed their individual games to make it work. I wouldn't say they had more talent overall than Miami does either, probably about even overall.

If he doesn't win a title within the next 2 years then his legacy will really take a hit as far as I'm concerned.

[cteach111]

Shheeiit, Lebron had all of americas best with him on the same team,

and all they got was a bronze medal.

DHo
Melo
CP
Wade
etc
etc.


and all they could get was third?

Kobe is what takes teams to the next level.

its interesting that those 2006 Worlds might actually be relevant to this Miami situation...

[jd3]

Stephen Curry
Ray Allen/JJ Reddick
Lebron/Jared Dudley
Serge Ibaka/Lou Amundson
Marcin Gortat/Channing Frye

[jrong]

All he needs is teammates, capable of hitting wide open three pointers and some hard nosed post defenders ala Varejao or Noah, who crash the boards constantly. He doesn't have any of that in this current Heat team and it's showing up in team record column. Having Wade constantly underperforming against elite teams doesn't help either - dude needs to get his act together and help Lebron there on the offensive end, instead of bricking and making turnovers in clutch time.

Get off of it. LeBron decided to take over the team and has failed to lead it to the important wins. It's time for him to pass the reins back.

[Papaya Petee]

All he needs is teammates, capable of hitting wide open three pointers and some hard nosed post defenders ala Varejao or Noah, who crash the boards constantly. He doesn't have any of that in this current Heat team and it's showing up in team record column. Having Wade constantly underperforming against elite teams doesn't help either - dude needs to get his act together and help Lebron there on the offensive end, instead of bricking and making turnovers in clutch time.
Lmao shut the **** up you annoying **** sucker.


Damnn I wasn't aware that the 6 years together are over and he's still ringless. Oh snap, regular season of their first year isn't even over yet, could of swore it was by all this hate.

[Jacks3]

Oh, so he needs more than a top 3 player in the entire league and another perennial All-Star PF? :facepalm

[Ne 1]

Lmao shut the **** up you annoying **** sucker.


Damnn I wasn't aware that the 6 years together are over and he's still ringless. Oh snap, regular season of their first year isn't even over yet, could of swore it was by all this hate.

Uh, this thread was posted last year.

[flipogb]

Stephen Curry
Ray Allen/JJ Reddick
Lebron/Jared Dudley
Serge Ibaka/Lou Amundson
Marcin Gortat/Channing Frye
no consistent post scoring , more excuses for Lebron

[King Baron]

Fisher/Blake
Lebron/Brown
Artest/Barnes
Gasol/Odom
Bynum/Ratliff

This one?

[flipogb]

Fisher/Blake
Lebron/Brown
Artest/Barnes
Gasol/Odom
Bynum/Ratliff

This one?
lol

[Optimus Prime]

Fisher/Blake
Lebron/Brown
Artest/Barnes
Gasol/Odom
Bynum/Ratliff

This one?

:lol @ thinly veiled bash at Kobe.

Still less All Stars than LeBron has at his side "in battle". :rolleyes:

[Kombo]

The formula would obviously be good shooters and defenders, then at least one other the creator for when Bron is on the bench.

1. This team might work out..

Tony Parker
Manu Ginobli
Lebron James
Tim Duncan
Dejuan Blair

:)

2. Maybe it lacks some outside shooting. Billups for Parker. You don't miss Parker's penetration because of James.

Billups
Ginobili
James
Duncan
Blair

3. Then, at this point, we need to further upgrade the overall talent, stealing all the good role players in the league. Acquire Kyle Korver, Shane Battier, Reggie Evans, Tyson Chandler, etc.

4. ????

5. Profit

[Ne 1]

In order for LeBron to win a ring he needs:

C- Dwight Howard

F- Dirk Nowitzki

G- Dwayne Wade

G- Derrick Rose

[DeronMillsap]

In order for LeBron to win a ring he needs:

C- Dwight Howard and M.Gasol

F- Dirk Nowitzki, Amare, P.Gasol

SF- Carmelo Anthony, Paul Pierce, himself(LeBron)

G- Dwayne Wade, Kobe Bryant, Manu

G- Derrick Rose, Chris Paul and Deron Williams
More like that.

LeBron would be the 14th man AKA Ammo or Scals. :roll:

[Mr. Jabbar]

More like that.

LeBron would be the 14th man AKA Ammo or Scals. :roll:


lmao, 14th man of the year award

[Ronaldinho]

G- CP3
G- Kobe
SF-Durant
F-Dirk
C- Howard

Lebron stays on the bench and enters garbage time to stat pad

[Ne 1]

PG: Paul SG: Harden F: Durant C: Noah