Is Kobe better than Prime Shaq?

[King Kong]

simple question

[Batz]

no.

[Freshprince619]

Yes. Kobe know how to play defense

[KineticZhiv]

Simple answer fo a simple question: No.

[Lebron23]

simple question

No

How old are you?

[keep-itreal]

oh boy...

[plowking]

Yes. Kobe know how to play defense

Shaq came second in DPOY one year...

To answer the question, Prime Shaq>Prime Kobe.

[Batz]

Shaq came second in DPOY one year...
So did Lebron... :lol

[Kiddlovesnets]

umm another thread overrating Kobe, who only had 1 final MVP in 7 NBA finals appearances...

[Freshprince619]

Shaq came second in DPOY one year...

To answer the question, Prime Shaq>Prime Kobe.
And still has ZERO all first team defenses
hmmmm

[plowking]

So did Lebron... :lol

Shaq's was actually deserved...

[plowking]

And still has ZERO all first team defenses
hmmmm

So you think Kobe is more of a defensive deterrence and force than Shaq?

[iamgine]

Can pigs fly?

[Freshprince619]

So you think Kobe is more of a defensive deterrence and force than Shaq?
Are you really trying to compare Kobe Defense to Shaqs?
Thats just blasphemy

[spree43]

Haha, Shaq owned the paint on D. If you wanted to come in their you had a toll to pay

Kobe buzzes around the perimeter and guards the weakest guy for most of the game

There is a big difference between being all defensive at C than at G. Especial in Shaqs day

[plowking]

Are you really trying to compare Kobe Defense to Shaqs?
Thats just blasphemy
:oldlol:

Do you know how many people thought twice about driving into the lane because Shaq was in there protecting it?

[Batz]

:oldlol:

Do you know how many people thought twice about driving into the lane because Shaq was in there protecting it?
Tony Parker will never be the same..

[west]

http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff322/yinwest/kobe.png

[Freshprince619]

:oldlol:

Do you know how many people thought twice about driving into the lane because Shaq was in there protecting it?
Stop. The man was far from a Dwight Howard on Defense.

[Toizumi]

No.... Shaq by miles. Somebody shut this thread down.

[Toizumi]

Stop. The man was far from a Dwight Howard on Defense.

Dwight is a great help defender and his positioning is better. Shaq was a better man defender and much more physical. I'd prefer prime Shaq over Dwight, if you wanted to come into the lane, he'd make you pay the price.

Serious questions:
how old are you?
how long have you been following ball?

[spree43]

Stop. The man was far from a Dwight Howard on Defense.
Um 30 points, 14 rebounds, 3.0 blocks, 7'2 and 300+ pounds disagrees with you

[King Kong]

im not saying he is or isnt. I thought with all the Kobe vs greats talk since, Kobe is approaching his 5th ring that it was a fair question.

[Lebron23]

im not saying he is or isnt. I thought with all the Kobe vs greats talk since, Kobe is approaching his 5th ring that it was a fair question.


Shaq has 3 NBA Finals MVP. He's the most dominant NBA Finals performer since Prime Michael Jordan.

[Freshprince619]

Um 30 points, 14 rebounds, 3.0 blocks, 7'2 and 300+ pounds disagrees with you
Wow people on ish are so stupid.
Yeah Shaq got 30 points on defense


Facepalm

[Maneva]

umm another thread overrating Kobe, who only had 1 final MVP in 7 NBA finals appearances...

Wow, way to spin the truth there. Nice touch already counting this one as a loss, too.

And no, Kobe's prime is not better than Shaq's prime, however it will be longer. I mean he's just now coming off arguably his best playoff series and you can hardly see any decline in his game. So he'll have spent many more years as an elite, top 5 player than Shaq, but Shaq will still have the better peak.

[plowking]

I don't think you understand how much Shaq impacted the game defensively.

No wait... you do, but you just don't want to admit Shaq's better than Kobe.

[Lebron23]

Prime Shaq NBA Finals Stats


2000 NBA Finals

38.0 ppg, 16.7 rpg, 2.3 apg, 2.67 bpg .611 FG%

2001 NBA Finals


33.0 ppg, 15.8 rpg, 4.8 apg, 3.40 bpg, .573 FG%

2002 NBA Finals

36.3 ppg, 12.3 rpg, 3.8 apg, 2.75 bpg, .595 FG%


23 yrs.old Shaq vs. Prime Hakeem Olajuwon

1995 NBA Finals

28.0 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 6.3 apg, 2.50 bpg, .595 FG%


Shaq vs. Detroit Pistons

2004 NBA Finals

26.6 ppg, 10.8 rpg, 1.6 apg, 0.60 bpg, .631 FG%

Jeff needs to lock this thread. You are an idiot, dumb @$$, N*thugger, or mentally retarded if you think Prime Kobe is better than Prime Shaq.

[spree43]

Wow people on ish are so stupid.
Yeah Shaq got 30 points on defense


Facepalm
Trust me I'm not the dumb one here

If you really think Kobe has a bigger impact on the game than prime shaq defensively then you should not post on the topic. It's not an opinion thing, it just fact

[john_d]

wow shaq has some awesome finals stats... against eastern conference centers...

empty stats... people forget how easily shaq gets into foul trouble.

[ShaqAttack3234]

So he'll have spent many more years as an elite, top 5 player than Shaq, but Shaq will still have the better peak.

Shaq was a top 5 player from 1994-2005(12 seasons). Kobe has been top 5 from 2001-2010(10 seasons) and it's debatable whether Kobe was top 5 in 2002, 2004 and 2005.

In fact, in 2005, Garnett, Duncan, Shaq, Wade, Dirk, T-Mac and Nash all had better seasons off the top of my head.

In 2002, Shaq and Duncan were top 2 and it's certainly debatable whether Kobe was better than C-Webb, Kidd, T-Mac and Garnett to name a few.

In 2004, his inefficient shooting, health problems and disastrous finals make it debatable. The top 3 were Garnett, Duncan and Shaq. McGrady won the scoring title by a wide margin and Jermaine O'Neal led the Pacers to 60 wins and was top 3 in MVP voting. But I'll definitely give Kobe the nod over Jermaine out of respect.

If you wanted to really analyze it, 2001 was also debatable. Shaq and Duncan were 1 and 2, Iverson had a great year, C-Webb averaged 27/11/4 with 1.7 bpg and 1.3 spg and led Sacramento and KG was, KG. Vince also went off, carried the Raptors, torched a great defensive 76er team, had a 50 point playoff game. But, to be fair, because of Kobe's playoff run, where he was IMO, the 2nd best player to only Shaq, I'd give him top 5. And his defense gives him a strong argument over Vince and AI.


wow shaq has some awesome finals stats... against eastern conference centers...

empty stats... people forget how easily shaq gets into foul trouble.

Yeah, empty stats vs the 2001 DPOY(and 4-time winner) Dikembe Mutombo, or the 4-time DPOY Ben Wallace in 2004 or the 2-time DPOY Hakeem Olajuwon in 1995. Hell, even Dale Davis was an all-star in 2000 when he guarded Shaq(with numerous double and triple teams).

And Shaq's minutes per game in the finals. 45 mpg in the 1995 finals, 45.5 mpg in the 2000 finals, 45 mpg in the 2001 finals, 41.5 mpg in the 2002 finals and 42.6 mpg.

Yeah, he was really bothered by foul trouble. :rolleyes:

[Lebron23]

F*ck this thread.

[Andrei89]

OFC prime shaq is better than prime Kobe.

Why so much arguing tho

[Micku]

Shaq was pretty good defensively. Phil Jackson wanted Shaq to be good defensively like when he was younger when he first started to coach the Lakers. Shaq didn't disappoint. He clog up the paint very good. No easy baskets. He could guard centers and PFs in the paint, he was pretty good back in the day.

And yeah, I think Shaq was more valuable than Kobe in his prime. Shaq was one of those rarities centers that you hardly see.

[Lebron23]

OFC prime shaq is better than prime Kobe.

Why so much arguing tho


Too much hate on Prime Shaq. How I wish that he had never played with the Los Angeles Lakers.

I am sure Shaq could win an NBA title while playing in a Jordan Less Eastern Conference.

[plowking]

I find the Laker fan hate on Shaq hilarious.

Do you realize Kobe wouldn't be considered anywhere near the player he is without Shaq? Though you'd be hard pressed to argue the other way around.

[Duncan21formvp]

simple question
No

[catch24]

Without question. Shaq can only dunk while Kobe has an entire repertoire of skill.

My best Kobe stan impersonation ... was I good?

[Allstar24]

Is prime Kobe better than prime Shaq? Hell no. But that doesn't change the fact that when it's all said and done, Kobe will go down as not only a greater Laker but a greater player than Shaq.

[redhonda76]

Seriously, how old are you? If you are trying to be funny, it's not working at all.

[SmoothRED]

Totally. Kobe is better than Jordan too.

[game3524]

No, only thing better to prime Shaq is prime MJ IMO. Kobe will most likely have a better overall career, but Shaq at his peak is better then Kobe's peak.

[Derka]

How the hell do you even compare a center to a 2-guard? This is pretty stupid.

[indiefan24]

How the hell do you even compare a center to a 2-guard? This is pretty stupid.

Everyone loves to compare Hakeem to Kobe over and over again..

[Derka]

Everyone loves to compare Hakeem to Kobe over and over again..

Everyone's pretty stupid if they do.

[lilgodfather1]

Is prime Kobe better than prime Shaq? Hell no. But that doesn't change the fact that when it's all said and done, Kobe will go down as not only a greater Laker but a greater player than Shaq.
Kobe has a career ending injury tomorow is he a greater player than Shaq? Nope not even close, so there is no fact that Kobe will be considered as a greater player than Shaq. It is a presumtion of yours that it is most certainly possible. This is for the first time that I will concede that Kobe has a chance to be a top 5 candidate.

[rfm767]

Shaq had the best prime of all times if you ask me. Not even jordan. But career wise, and when all is said and done, kobe will be ranked higher than shaq.

[asdf1990]

I find the Laker fan hate on Shaq hilarious.

Do you realize Kobe wouldn't be considered anywhere near the player he is without Shaq? Though you'd be hard pressed to argue the other way around.

kobe stans don't realize that. I've always saidd they should be thanking shaq for making kobe, without shaq, kobe would have been another tmac but without injuries. Without shaq Phil Jackson wouldn't even consider joining the lakers, without shaq kobe wouldn't have 3 rings.

[iggy>]

prime shaq might be the most dominant offensive force in nba history, and kobe?

[Soothsayer]

kobe stans don't realize that. I've always saidd they should be thanking shaq for making kobe, without shaq, kobe would have been another tmac but without injuries. Without shaq Phil Jackson wouldn't even consider joining the lakers, without shaq kobe wouldn't have 3 rings.

Exactly. Without Shaq, Kobe likely only has a single ring right now.

[phxsuns4life]

I'd have Prime Shaq any day of the week, not even close. A beast on both ends of the floor and unstoppable. You could try and slow him down but stop him? No.

Kobe = 1 Finals MVP
Shaq got three baby!!!!! lol

[magnax1]

No, but its not a terribly huge gap. They both had extremely good peak years. Shaq is still obviously better though.

[amfirst]

We will never know. Prime Shaq was on one of the greatest team ever. Prime Kobe was playing with Smush and Kwame.

If Kobe wasn't on the Lakers, than prime Shaq would be diminish because they would have lost to Blazer, Kings, and Spurs.

[LA_Showtime]

No, he's not. Few (if any) players come close to matching prime Shaq's dominance. He forced the NBA to change how the game was played.

[VishaltotheG]

Do covalent bonds occur between metals and nonmetals?

[rfoster24]

Yes.
81.

[ChrisConley]

Yes.
81.

What about 61 and 23?

[Soothsayer]

Yes.
81.


So you determine the relative quality of players by simply going down the list of top scoring performances in a single game in league history?

Brilliant! Why didn't I think of that....

[Roundball_Rock]

No. Peak Shaq was better than anyone other than peak Kareem and Wilt and overall he is top 5 all-time. Kobe may wind up with the better career but the peak vs. peak debate will always go to Shaq.

[momo]

Prime Shaq had some of the sickest seasons of anyone, ever.

[tommy3]

No. Peak Shaq was better than anyone other than peak Kareem and Wilt and overall he is top 5 all-time. Kobe may wind up with the better career but the peak vs. peak debate will always go to Shaq.
Not even those two. Prime Shaq was better than prime KAJ and prime Wilt were.

[steeph28]

simple question

more like stupid question

[dubeta]

:roll:

[Prime_Shaq]

:wtf:

[Angel Face]

:roll:

Prime shaq is the second most dominant player that I've seen, after of course MJ.

[7secondsorless]

Errrr, do people realize that peak Shaq actually dictated other playoff teams' roster moves and free agency acquisitions? Teams like Blazers, Mavs, and even Eastern Conference teams like the Pacers would actually revolve their free agency and trades around trying to get guys--not to stop Shaq but just to give themselves hope that he wouldn't destroy their entire frontcourt within the first half.
1999-2005 Kobe was usually compared and debated against Vince Carter, Tmac, Iverson. 1999-2004 Shaq was usually compared and debated against Wilt, Kareem, Moses Malone.
I remember watching playoff series after playoff series during their run where the other team would TRIPLE team him once he caught the ball in the paint and they'd have no chance...

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Prime Shaq is the MDE. He's better than Kobe, and that applies for the player and the poster. :oldlol:

[KingLeBronJames]

Yes.

[Smoke117]

I'm actually going to be objective (i'm surprised as much as you are): Kobe is BETTER IN HIS PRIME THAN SHAQ...in that he's always been a more skilled basketball player. Is he GREATER THOUGH? Absolutely not. Shaq hasn't earned the coinage of " MOST DOMINANT OF ALL TIME" because he didn't do shit. It kind of turns my face into a scowl remembering how hard it was to guard him even you had Big Sabas...ugh. Kobe was NEVER THAT GUY. The guy you feared because you knew there was nothing you could do...Shaq was that guy. Ugh...lol. Facing shaq in the early 2000s was like facing the inevitable...you just could do nothing against that ****ing bastard lol.

People hated that Laker team because of Shaq...not Kobe.

[Mr Feeny]

I'm actually going to be objective (i'm surprised as much as you are): Kobe is BETTER IN HIS PRIME THAN SHAQ...in that he's always been a more skilled basketball player. Is he GREATER THOUGH? Absolutely not. Shaq hasn't earned the coinage of " MOST DOMINANT OF ALL TIME" because he didn't do shit. It kind of turns my face into a scowl remembering how hard it was to guard him even you had Big Sabas...ugh. Kobe was NEVER THAT GUY. The guy you feared because you knew there was nothing you could do...Shaq was that guy. Ugh...lol. Facing shaq in the early 2000s was like facing the inevitable...you just could do nothing against that ****ing bastard lol.What does skill have to do with being better? If you're athleticism dwarfs the rest of the league, it doesn't matter if you aren't the most skilled player. Lebron, for example, was never the most skilled player in the NBA but has been arguably the best for the last 7-8 years.

[Doranku]

No. I'd only take two players in NBA history over Prime Shaq.

[ImKobe]

2001 Kobe at 21-22 yrs old was as good as prime Shaq.

[Prime_Shaq]

2001 Kobe at 21-22 yrs old was as good as prime Shaq.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[rmt]

Tony Parker will never be the same..

I remember Parker BOUNCING off Shaq once. And the answer to OP is HELL, NO - few were. Prime Shaq was a monster.

[Smoke117]

What does skill have to do with being better? If you're athleticism dwarfs the rest of the league, it doesn't matter if you aren't the most skilled player. Lebron, for example, was never the most skilled player in the NBA but has been arguably the best for the last 7-8 years.

True. I wont argue with you, cat.

[ImKobe]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

I'm being generous here. We all know Kobe was actually the better player at the same time.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kobe made 3 straight finals w/o Shaq and won 2 FMVPS without him also


Shaq never even came close to that type of production without Kobe,,

Kobe had an all 3rd team player in Gasol,,

Shaq had an all 1st team player in Penny..

[ImKobe]

Kobe made 3 straight finals w/o Shaq and won 2 FMVPS without him also


Shaq never even came close to that type of production without Kobe,,

Kobe had an all 3rd team player in Gasol,,

Shaq had an all 1st team player in Penny..

not to mention that Kobe led the 2001 Lakers in Winshares in the Playoffs and easily had the better numbers on the road and through the 1st 3 rounds for that run. And he wasn't at his prime while Shaq was.

[Smoke117]

2001 Kobe at 21-22 yrs old was as good as prime Shaq.

:biggums: ...:biggums: ...:biggums: ...:biggums:

Wow.

You just can't help yourself can you?

You stupid, stupid bastard.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Remember when the argument was "Kobe has done nothing without Shaq"

and then Kobe made 3 straight finals as the undisputed man of his team :lol :lol


Has there ever been a better "2nd option" than Kobe in 01 (again I don't understand how you're the 2nd option if the offense revolves around you taking the most shots per game while going undefeated through the playoffs)

please find me another playoff run where the team won a championship and the guy leading the team in FGA's ring.. "didn't count"

[Prime_Shaq]

To Kobe fans, Kobe is a great player but he benefitted greatly from playing with Prime Shaq. Prime Shaq commanded double teams and triple teams with opened up so much space for the rest of the team to work (Kobe). Teams had to change their game plan so much for Shaq. Shaq's scoring is often highlighted but let's not forget his role in the triangle offense and his intimidation factor in the paint and his underrated defense.

You may talk about Shaq losing in the 1995 finals but he put up 28 PPG 12.5 RPG 6.3 APG 2.5 BPG on 59% FG while holding his own against an all-time great center in Hakeem. Shaq showed up with his teammates didn't.

As Shaq aged his game had to change as well and it showed in the 2006 Finals. He deferred to Wade as his offense declined but he still commanded respect in the paint and did his part to anchor that championship defense.

Let us also not forget the 2004 Finals where Shaq put up 26.6 PPG and 10.5 RPG on 63% FG while Kobe chucked his way to 22.6 PPG 4.4 APG on 38% FG 17% 3PT and refused to feed Shaq when Shaq was dominating inside. Cost them both a ring.

I'm not even saying Kobe is a bad player, he's an all-time great but there are very few, if any player better than Prime Shaq.

[TheMarkMadsen]

To Kobe fans, Kobe is a great player but he benefitted greatly from playing with Prime Shaq. Prime Shaq commanded double teams and triple teams with opened up so much space for the rest of the team to work (Kobe). Teams had to change their game plan so much for Shaq. Shaq's scoring is often highlighted but let's not forget his role in the triangle offense and his intimidation factor in the paint and his underrated defense.

You may talk about Shaq losing in the 1995 finals but he put up 28 PPG 12.5 RPG 6.3 APG 2.5 BPG on 59% FG while holding his own against an all-time great center in Hakeem. Shaq showed up with his teammates didn't.

As Shaq aged his game had to change as well and it showed in the 2006 Finals. He deferred to Wade as his offense declined but he still commanded respect in the paint and did his part to anchor that championship defense.

Let us also not forget the 2004 Finals where Shaq put up 26.6 PPG and 10.5 RPG on 63% FG while Kobe chucked his way to 22.6 PPG 4.4 APG on 38% FG 17% 3PT and refused to feed Shaq when Shaq was dominating inside. Cost them both a ring.

I'm not even saying Kobe is a bad player, he's an all-time great but there are very few, if any player better than Prime Shaq.


And Shaq didn't benefit greatly from playing with Kobe?

tell me.. what did Shaq do without Kobe?

He played with 2 other all nba first team players.. so obiously the MDE won with those guys multipe times and made multiple finals????

SHOW ME??

Kobe mad 3 straight finals with a 18/10 PF next to him..

Shaq needed Kobe to lead the 4th quarter playoff scoring in b2b years (01 & 02) while Kobe averaged 28/6/6 and Wade had the an historic or rigged (whichever you choose) to give Shaq his only ring w/o Kobe

Kobe is the only player in the top 10 all time to make 3 straight finals twice in his career.. IMPACT

What's more replacable if you're a GM?

A 28/6/6 SG with all NBA defense or a 18/10 PF with no all nba defese

Kobe did so much more without Shaq that Shaq did with him

THAT HAS TO COUNT FOR SOMETHING..? considering most idiots were compelletley judging Kobe's career based on what he was able to do without Shaq..

of course that was before Kobe led his team to 3 straight finals with nothing more than an all NBA 3rd team player...

something Shaq could never do

[TheMarkMadsen]

you've got to love how ironic the time period for "prime Shaq" is

just so happens that Shaq hits his "prime" as soon as Kobe becomes a supestar

just so happens that Shaq's "prime" ends as soon as Kobe gets injured in 03..

lets just ignore that the Lakers had 3 all star guard beside Kobe (Penny, Van Exel, Jones) before this and never won a finals game with them

lets just ignore that Lakers in 99 were swept by the Spurs... and then in 01 Shaq puts up the almost the same production and all of a sudden the Lakers dominantly sweep the Spurs..

:roll: :roll:

had nothing do with Kobe averaing 33/7/7..

it was all "prime Shaq"

please.. please.. somebody explain the difference betwee 99 & 2000/01 Shaq.. besides the fact that Duncan wasn't playing 00 and in 01 Kobe was putting up Jordan esque numbers

[dubeta]

LOL @ Kobe trolls

Oh dey mad :roll:



PLease tell me how valuable Kobe's 15ppg on 41% shooting was crucial for Shaq's 2000 championship?? :oldlol:



Kobe was along for ride, don't get it twisted. They win with or without Kobe.

[Prime_Shaq]

you've got to love how ironic the time period for "prime Shaq" is

just so happens that Shaq hits his "prime" as soon as Kobe becomes a supestar

just so happens that Shaq's "prime" ends as soon as Kobe gets injured in 03..

lets just ignore that the Lakers had 3 all star guard beside Kobe (Penny, Van Exel, Jones) before this and never won a finals game with them

lets just ignore that Lakers in 99 were swept by the Spurs... and then in 01 Shaq puts up the almost the same production and all of a sudden the Lakers dominantly sweep the Spurs..

:roll: :roll:

had nothing do with Kobe averaing 33/7/7..

it was all "prime Shaq"

please.. please.. somebody explain the difference betwee 99 & 2000/01 Shaq.. besides the fact that Duncan wasn't playing 00 and in 01 Kobe was putting up Jordan esque numbers
Moreso than Kobe was Phil Jackson's motivation and triangle offense, brought out the best in Shaq's abilities. You compare Penny and Pau, how about the rest of the roster? Kobe had by far the best frontcourt in the league with Bynum/Gasol/Odom. Prime Shaq didnt end in 2003, you could still see how dominant he was till 2006. He was even robbed of a MVP in 2005.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Moreso than Kobe was Phil Jackson's motivation and triangle offense, brought out the best in Shaq's abilities. You compare Penny and Pau, how about the rest of the roster? Kobe had by far the best frontcourt in the league with Bynum/Gasol/Odom. Prime Shaq didnt end in 2003, you could still see how dominant he was till 2006. He was even robbed of a MVP in 2005.

:roll: :roll:

Utah, Celtics, Houston all had better front courts without even really trying to think..

Duncan, Dirk, KG, Dwight > Pau

it's not like Pau wasn't good, but you idiots overrate him to the point where he needs to be brought down

please tell me Pau/Odom was better than having Dwight/Gorat..KG/Perkins/ Duncan/whoever...Milsap/Boozer/Okur...Yao/Scola/Battieryou

are really bringing up Bynum who's best playoff run during championshiop years was 9/7.. and the year before that was 6/4

guess we should be bringing up Luc Longley and Chris Anderso too? Elden Campbell>>>


Kobe & Phil made 3 straight finals and won 2 b2b rings with an 18/10 guy replacing Shaq..

Shaq had 20/5/5 guys in place of Kobe..

and never did shit..


simple question try not to dodge this.. but what did Shaq do without Kobe?

[Prime_Shaq]

:roll: :roll:

Utah, Celtics, Houston all had better front courts without even really trying to think..

Duncan, Dirk, KG, Dwight > Pau

it's not like Pau wasn't good, but you idiots overrate him to the point where he needs to be brought down

please tell me Pau/Odom was better than having Dwight/Gorat..KG/Perkins/ Duncan/whoever...Milsap/Boozer/Okur...Yao/Scola/Battier

Kobe & Phil made 3 straight finals and wo 2 b2b rings with an 18/10 guy replacing Shaq..


simple question try not to dodge this.. but what did Shaq do without Kobe?
Hmmm... reach the Finals in his 3rd year, put up monster stats ever since he entered the league and ultimately did win a ring without Kobe. Btw the Gasol/Bynum/Odom frontline was the best frontcourt, undoubtedly.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Hmmm... reach the Finals in his 3rd year


and got swept with an all nba first team guard beside him


put up monster stats ever since he entered the league and ultimately did win a ring without Kobe

only with the 3rd GOAT shooting guard of all time having an all time great/rigged finals



Btw the Gasol/Bynum/Odom frontline was the best frontcourt, undoubtedly.

already destroyed this

Utah, Boston, Houston and Orlando all better

[Smoke117]

Hmmm... reach the Finals in his 3rd year, put up monster stats ever since he entered the league and ultimately did win a ring without Kobe. Btw the Gasol/Bynum/Odom frontline was the best frontcourt, undoubtedly.

Don't bother...they are Kobe stans. They aren't worth it.

[Prime_Shaq]

and got swept with an all nba first team guard beside him



only with the 3rd GOAT shooting guard of all time having an all time great/rigged finals


[Prime_Shaq]Btw the Gasol/Bynum/Odom frontline was the best frontcourt, undoubtedly.

already destroyed this

Utah, Boston, Houston and Orlando all better[/QUOTE]
Already posted his 1995 Finals stats earlier, that lost was not on him. The rest is debatable but at the end of the day he did win a ring. You didn't destroy anything, all you stated was your opinion.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Let's compare Kobe's help with Pau with the the help Shaq had with Kobe

Shaq had a

29/7/6 all nba defensive shooting guard

9/8 PF no all defensive comming off the bench

10/5/4 SF starter


Kobe had a

18/10 no all defensive team PF

11/8 no all defensive PF comming off the bench

11/4/2 no all defensive SF starter

[TheMarkMadsen]

Already posted his 1995 Finals stats earlier, that lost was not on him. The rest is debatable but at the end of the day he did win a ring. You didn't destroy anything, all you stated was your opinion.

Dwight, Dirk, Duncan, KG >> Pau

Dwight 09>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pau

Dirk 10 >>>>>>>> Pau


KG 08>>>>>>> Pau


2009 Jazz: Memhet Okur: 17/8 Carlos Boozer: 16/10 Paul Milspap: 14/9

That's not even bringing up all NBA Center Yao who was paired with Scola, Artest and Landry

[dubeta]

Dwight, Dirk, Duncan, KG >> Pau

Dwight 09>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pau

Dirk 10 >>>>>>>> Pau


KG 08>>>>>>> Pau


2009 Jazz: Memhet Okur: 17/8 Carlos Boozer: 16/10 Paul Milspap: 14/9

That's not even bringing up all NBA Center Yao who was paired with Scola, Artest and Landry

What about the best Center in the league Andrew Bynum and a top 5 SF in Lamar Odom? And what about the best coach in the league in Phil Jackson?

Those teams win with or without Kobe as well.

[TheMarkMadsen]

What about the best Center in the league Andrew Bynum and a top 5 SF in Lamar Odom? And what about the best coach in the league in Phil Jackson?

Those teams win with or without Kobe as well.


Andrew Bynum during Lakers 3 finals runs

08: DNP

09: 6/4

10: 9/7

[Prime_Shaq]

Let's compare Kobe's help with Pau with the the help Shaq had with Kobe

Shaq had a

29/7/6 all nba defensive shooting guard

9/8 PF no all defensive comming off the bench

10/5/4 SF starter


Kobe had a

18/10 no all defensive team PF

11/8 no all defensive PF comming off the bench

11/4/2 no all defensive SF starter
What's the point of this? So you're telling me the 00-02 teams were more top heavy? Of course they were, they had the best 1-2 punch in NBA history. The 08-10 teams were more complete overall. Are you trying to discount the defensive impact of the Bynum + Gasol frontline? Or the defensive versatility of Odom/Ariza/Artest?

[Prime_Shaq]

Dwight, Dirk, Duncan, KG >> Pau

Dwight 09>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pau

Dirk 10 >>>>>>>> Pau


KG 08>>>>>>> Pau


2009 Jazz: Memhet Okur: 17/8 Carlos Boozer: 16/10 Paul Milspap: 14/9

That's not even bringing up all NBA Center Yao who was paired with Scola, Artest and Landry
Dwight > Pau
Dirk > Pau
KG > Pau

Bynum + Pau + Odom > Dwight + Rashard
Bynum + Pau + Odom > Dirk + ???
Bynum + Pau + Odom > Okur(Jump shooter) + Boozer (No D) + Millsap (Serviceable, but not like current Millsap)

[Prime_Shaq]

What about the best Center in the league Andrew Bynum and a top 5 SF in Lamar Odom? And what about the best coach in the league in Phil Jackson?

Those teams win with or without Kobe as well.
Well this is just not true.

[TheMarkMadsen]

What's the point of this? So you're telling me the 00-02 teams were more top heavy? Of course they were, they had the best 1-2 punch in NBA history. The 08-10 teams were more complete overall. Are you trying to discount the defensive impact of the Bynum + Gasol frontline? Or the defensive versatility of Odom/Ariza/Artest?

yeah man remember when they were all on the same team?

why am i even bothering..


Kobe did more with less than Shaq did..

Kobe's only all NBA first team teammate was Shaq.. they won 3 straight finals..

Shaq had Penny and Wade as first team all nba players.. never got close to 3 straight finals and FMVP's..

Kobe had 3rd team all NBA Pau.. they made 3 straight finals and won 2 b2b finals..

you tell me what's more difficult to find?

a 28/6/6 SG with and NBA defense

or an 18/10 PF who never makes an all defensive team

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kobe and Shaq were the best duo in NBA history IMO

but lets be real

Kobe got way closer to duplicating the success he had with Shaq than Shaq ever got to duplicating the success he had with Kobe


and you know if this was the other way around... nobody would be arguing otherwise


if Shaq went on to win 2 rings and 2 FMVP's with a 20/5/5 guard Kobe would never live that down

but..

Kobe wins 2 rings and 2 FMVP's with an 18/8 PF and still gets no respect

[Prime_Shaq]

yeah man remember when they were all on the same team?

why am i even bothering..


Kobe did more with less than Shaq did..

Kobe's only all NBA first team teammate was Shaq.. they won 3 straight finals..

Shaq had Penny and Wade as first team all nba players.. never got close to 3 straight finals and FMVP's..

Kobe had 3rd team all NBA Pau.. they made 3 straight finals and won 2 b2b finals..

you tell me what's more difficult to find?

a 28/6/6 SG with and NBA defense

or an 18/10 PF who never makes an all defensive team
You keep emphasizing on only the 2nd option on each team, why not try to look at the entire team?

[Prime_Shaq]

Kobe and Shaq were the best duo in NBA history IMO

but lets be real

Kobe got way closer to duplicating the success he had with Shaq than Shaq ever got to duplicating the success he had with Kobe


and you know if this was the other way around... nobody would be arguing otherwise


if Shaq went on to win 2 rings and 2 FMVP's with a 20/5/5 guard Kobe would never live that down

but..

Kobe wins 2 rings and 2 FMVP's with an 18/8 PF and still gets no respect
Agreed with the first point. However I think you misunderstand me, I do respect Kobe. Shaq needed Kobe and Kobe needed Shaq but Kobe was not better than Prime Shaq.

[dubeta]

Kobe and Shaq were the best duo in NBA history IMO

but lets be real

Kobe got way closer to duplicating the success he had with Shaq than Shaq ever got to duplicating the success he had with Kobe


and you know if this was the other way around... nobody would be arguing otherwise


if Shaq went on to win 2 rings and 2 FMVP's with a 20/5/5 guard Kobe would never live that down

but..

Kobe wins 2 rings and 2 FMVP's with an 18/8 PF and still gets no respect

Considering Gasol was the better overall player (Higher Player Efficiency Rating and Win Shares, while being more efficient, getting more rebounds and blocks) it should be that way.

[SwayDizzle]

Yes

[ImKobe]

already destroyed this

Utah, Boston, Houston and Orlando all better
Already posted his 1995 Finals stats earlier, that lost was not on him. The rest is debatable but at the end of the day he did win a ring. You didn't destroy anything, all you stated was your opinion.[/QUOTE]

The point is that he produced the same way from 95-99, but his teams never came close to the amount of success they did with Kobe in a superstar role from 00-02 :confusedshrug:, how did Lakers all of a sudden go from not having HCA to dominating the WC Playoffs 11-0 the same damn year? Shaq's numbers did not go up, matter fact I'm sure 2000 was his best year, and even then they needed Kobe to have a game-saving block and put up 25/12/7/4 in Game 7 against Portland to even make the Finals and it goes 7 games at least if Kobe misses Game 4 of the Finals as well.

****** still acting like Shaq just ran through every opponent on his own and that any guard could have won rings with him in Kobe's place when two of the 3 runs came down to clutch plays by Kobe, Shaw and Horry...and you know damn well the 01 Lakers ain't going through the West like that with no HCA with someone like AI in Kobe's place, who could never average 30 ppg as efficiently as Kobe did through the first 3 rounds + the elite defense, rebounding and playmaking.

[JohnFreeman]

Hell no

[ImKobe]

Considering Gasol was the better overall player (Higher Player Efficiency Rating and Win Shares, while being more efficient, getting more rebounds and blocks) it should be that way.

Gasol is a big man, of course he gonna get more boards and blocks playing under the basket and his efficiency is going to be higher

but who was the leader of that team? Who set Pau up for those easy baskets? who ran the triangle? who shot 46% through 3 Playoff runs with mostly taking contested mid-range/3pt shots?

I can put up at least 10 games Kobe has from those 3 runs that shit on anything that Pau did.

I guess 08-10 Pau is better than 96-98 Jordan as well?

[Mr Feeny]

LOL @ Kobe trolls

Oh dey mad :roll:



PLease tell me how valuable Kobe's 15ppg on 41% shooting was crucial for Shaq's 2000 championship?? :oldlol:
.

It was 36%fg.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Is anyone actually trying to argue this? :biggums:

[pauk]

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/bp.gif

[HOoopCityJones]

I don't agree but MarkMadsen making a strong case for who's better All-time.

Single handedly soloing this thread.

[Mr Feeny]

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/bp.gif

De -la
sun de-laaa

[Mr Feeny]

I don't agree but MarkMadsen making a strong case for who's better All-time.

Single handedly soloing this thread.

Tbf you and Mark Madsen are the same guy.

[HOoopCityJones]

Tbf you and Mark Madsen are the same guy.

Just like you're the same guy as every Kobe hater on this board. All of you post exactly the same.

I'm positive you're Arbitrary's alt though.

[Mr Feeny]

Just like you're the same guy as every Kobe hater on this board. All of you post exactly the same.

I'm positive you're Arbitrary's alt though.

A.W. and I have fallen out plenty of times. Anyone on this board knows we're not the same guy. We do think you know nothing about basketball though, as does the majority of this board. Youre always welcome to run an I.P. check.

Just because multiple people on this board think you're an idiot, it doesn't make them all alts:cheers:

[24-Inch_Chrome]

I don't agree but MarkMadsen making a strong case for who's better All-time.

Single handedly soloing this thread.

The dude thinks value is measured by FGA. Wouldn't know a "strong case" if it hit him in the mouth.

Prime Shaq > Kobe, this is worse than the thread trying to create a debate about Duncan's deserved position above Kobe.

[HOoopCityJones]

The dude thinks value is measured by FGA. Wouldn't know a "strong case" if it hit him in the mouth.

Prime Shaq > Kobe, this is worse than the thread trying to create a debate about Duncan's deserved position above Kobe.

One of the Lerbon stans bumped this though, I swear you guys act like Kobe fans just come out the woodwork to gloat about him or something . Some insecure prick always wants to take a shot or bring up so old extreme tired debate when they feel Lebron is having a rough day at ISH.

*Looks a dubeta*

[24-Inch_Chrome]

One of the Lerbon stans bumped this though, I swear you guys act like Kobe fans just come out the woodwork to gloat about him or something . Some insecure prick always wants to take a shot or bring up so old extreme tired debate when they feel Lebron is having a rough day at ISH.

*Looks a dubeta*

Oh shit, didn't notice that the thread started in 2010. :oldlol:

I'll be honest though, I look at the LeBron family and Kobe stans with equal amounts of disdain. It's true that dubeta is pretty bad but there are some equally shitty posters on the other side.

[HOoopCityJones]

Oh shit, didn't notice that the thread started in 2010. :oldlol:

I'll be honest though, I look at the LeBron family and Kobe stans with equal amounts of disdain. It's true that dubeta is pretty bad but there are some equally shitty posters on the other side.

Well, MarkMadsen ain't one of them, he actually makes pretty legit arguments. It may not resonate with everyone ,but he's not in the strictly red for a reason . :applause:

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Well, MarkMadsen ain't one of them, he actually makes pretty legit arguments. It may not resonate with everyone , but he's not in the strictly red for a reason. :applause:

We can agree to disagree on that one. :cheers:

Not surprised that it was dubeta who bumped it though. :lol

[Cold soul]

Kobe had greater career with the better prime but not close to peak Shaq.

[KG215]

You keep emphasizing on only the 2nd option on each team, why not try to look at the entire team?
You don't really need too. In 2009 (after Garnett got hurt and missed the playoffs) and 2010, Kobe had the best second option of the other best players on legit contenders.

[ShawkFactory]

You don't really need too. In 2009 (after Garnett got hurt and missed the playoffs) and 2010, Kobe had the best second option of the other best players on legit contenders.
2nd options for elite players in 2010, for example:

Lebron- Mo Williams
Durant- 21-year-old Westbrook
Wade- Michael Beasley
Dwight- Vince Carter
Melo- Billups
Dirk- Jason Terry

These people need to stop with the revisionist history. Those Laker squads were the best in the league. Kobe didn't carry a bunch of scrubs.

[KG215]

2nd options for elite players in 2010, for example:

Lebron- Mo Williams
Durant- 21-year-old Westbrook
Wade- Michael Beasley
Dwight- Vince Carter
Melo- Billups
Dirk- Jason Terry

These people need to stop with the revisionist history. Those Laker squads were the best in the league. Kobe didn't carry a bunch of scrubs.
It's not even that, although I agree. But relative to the rest of the league, on top of having the best or second best player in the league in Kobe, the Lakers had the best second banana among the other legit contenders. Even out of all the top tier teams I think you can say only the Suns had a better second option in Stoudemire, but I don't think the Suns were on the same tier as the Lakers, Cavs, Celtics, and Magic those years.

My problem is when Kobe stans try and throw in "Kobe won two rings without a top 50 or top 100 all-time player," completely ignoring context and that LeBron's second banana was Mo Williams and Dwight's second banana was Hedo Turkoglu or Rashard Lewis. Yes, Kobe rang back-to-back with Gasol as his #2, and a good, solid supporting cast that gets badly underrated by Kobe fanboys, but the 2009 and 2010 Lakers aren't winning a championship in almost any other era in NBA history other than maybe the 1970s.

[hiphopfan777]

Kobe has more rings,81 points