How would Michael Jordan fair in Zone defense?

[Freshprince619]

Im convinced it would decrease his effectiveness drastically. Jordan was a good jump shooter but not Great. And Zone will make you settle for 3's and long jumpers.

What do yall think?

[ginobli2311]

Im convinced it would decrease his effectiveness drastically. Jordan was a good jump shooter but not Great. And Zone will make you settle for 3's and long jumpers.

What do yall think?

you might want to watch some old tape....teams routinely played zone against jordan.

[magnax1]

Im convinced it would decrease his effectiveness drastically. Jordan was a good jump shooter but not Great. And Zone will make you settle for 3's and long jumpers.

What do yall think?
Idiot alert

[Freshprince619]

Idiot alert
Homer alert

[Freshprince619]

you might want to watch some old tape....teams routinely played zone against jordan.
Zone was illegal up to 2002. Might want to learn your sport

[TheLogo]

I think his efficiency would drastically go down.

Jordan doesn't have range and the zone will force him to shoot in spots where he normally wouldn't shoot.

[MagicalLA]

This message is hidden because Freshprince619 is on your ignore list.


:lol

[Indian guy]

Zone was legalized in 01-02. MJ put up 20 ppg on 45% shooting as a 40 year old back in 02-03. This is pre-04-05 to boot, when the league really softened up the defensive rules.

I'd say MJ would do alright.

[cotdt]

MJ doesn't have the range in his jumpshot. If it was MJ against the Suns, his team would not do too well.

[Freshprince619]

Zone was legalized in 01-02. MJ put up 20 ppg on 45% shooting as a 40 year old back in 02-03. This is pre-04-05 to boot, when the league really softened up the defensive rules.

I'd say MJ would do alright.
Teams hardly play zone or tough defense in Regular Season. Zone is implemented mainly in Play-offs to stop Superstars. Do you see how Celtics guarded Lebron in the Regular season Vs Play-offs? BIG DIFFERENCE!

[asdf1990]

10x better then kobe especially against suns zone defense.

[DuMa]

how would you FARE in a 6th grade english test? probably not well.

[Dontstop]

MJ doesn't have the range in his jumpshot. If it was MJ against the Suns, his team would not do too well.

So 09-10 Lakers > 96-67 Bulls? :roll: :roll: :roll: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[magnax1]

Homer alert
Of the Utah Jazz?
You really think I like Jordan that much being a fan of the Utah Jazz? The rules have been changed to make it easier to score for perimeter players after Jordan left. If Jordan could average 25-6-5 in 02 after the zone rules were added, then he wouldn't have any problems playing like he did in the late 80's early 90's.

[asdf1990]

So 09-10 Lakers > 96-67 Bulls? :roll: :roll: :roll: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

don't even read that guys posts, his one of the most delusional kobe homer on this forums.

[Freshprince619]

Of the Utah Jazz?
You really think I like Jordan that much being a fan of the Utah Jazz? The rules have been changed to make it easier to score for perimeter players after Jordan left. If Jordan could average 25-6-5 in 02 after the zone rules were added, then he wouldn't have any problems playing like he did in the late 80's early 90's.
You're saying Jordan had an elite jumper even tho lacking range.
I can name a handful of players TODAY who have better jumpers then Jordan.
So he is far from elite

[asdf1990]

You're saying Jordan had an elite jumper even tho lacking range.
I can name a handful of players TODAY who have better jumpers then Jordan.
So he is far from elite

can u please enlighten us and tell us the names.

[magnax1]

You're saying Jordan had an elite jumper even tho lacking range.
I can name a handful of players TODAY who have better jumpers then Jordan.
So he is far from elite
So what if you can name players who have better jumpers today. He didn't lack range on his jumper, he was a 40% shooter from the corner of the 3 pt line (just judging from the seasons they evened out the 3pt line) so he had plenty of range on his jumper, and there are few today who have a jumper. Hamilton, Kobe, Dirk, and Ray are the only ones I can think of at the moment.

[Freshprince619]

So what if you can name players who have better jumpers today. He didn't lack range on his jumper, he was a 40% shooter from the corner of the 3 pt line (just judging from the seasons they evened out the 3pt line) so he had plenty of range on his jumper, and there are few today who have a jumper. Hamilton, Kobe, Dirk, and Ray are the only ones I can think of at the moment.
Steve Nash, Paul Pierce, Stephen Curry, Carmelo Anthony, Kyle Korver ect
and thast just today.

Once again Jordan was a good shooter NOT great

[Real Men Wear Green]

I think his efficiency would drastically go down.

Jordan doesn't have range and the zone will force him to shoot in spots where he normally wouldn't shoot.
The zone isn't going to force him to stand out on the three-point line, that's silly. He could still set up for his fadeaways and try to attack the rim. The key would be, especially when it came to attacking the rim, what kind of team he has around him. If he has guys that can hit jumpers he's going to feast. If he doesn't, it's tougher, but he's still going to be vastly athletically superior to his defenders and so will still get some baskets.

[che guevara]

And the myth that Jordan couldn't shoot threes continues. In the regular seasons when he shot a reasonable number of threes (2+) he shot a very good percentage. Most if his attempts in the other seasons were bailout attempts at the end of the shotclock or end of the quarter. He was also one of the best midrange shooters of all time and deadly from 22 feet and in. Here he discusses why he doesn't shoot threes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXkwuTRImqs) (this was after his 6 threes in the first half of game 1).

1990: 37.6% on 3 attempts per game
1993: 35.2% on 2.9 attempts per game

In the posteason:
1991: 38.5% on 1.5 attempts per game
1992: 38.6% on 2 attempts per game, including 6 of 10 in game 1 of the Finals
1993: 38.9% on 3.8 attempts per game, including 6 of 9 vs. the Knicks in his 54 point game

He also shot 42.7% on 3.2 attempts per game in 1996 and 37.4% on 3.6 attempts in 1997, but that was with the line shortened.

[magnax1]

Steve Nash, Paul Pierce, Stephen Curry, Carmelo Anthony, Kyle Korver ect
and thast just today.

Once again Jordan was a good shooter NOT great
Nash was better, the rest aren't. I kind of doubt you know anything about Jordan, so I'll just stop arguing.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Steve Nash, Paul Pierce, Stephen Curry, Carmelo Anthony, Kyle Korver ect
and thast just today.

Once again Jordan was a good shooter NOT great
Jordan wasn't that good from long range but he was great on mid-range jumpers. As the primary offensive weapon he never had to be a three-point shooter and wasn't one.

[TheLogo]

Jordan was one of the greatest players of all time and was very good in many aspect of the game. One can debate that he is as complete as Kobe, but to say he had great range is plain STUPID.

Yes, he was great but his range was very weak.

[Harison]

This message is hidden because Freshprince619 is on your ignore list.


:lol
Damn, you beat me to it :oldlol:

[Freshprince619]

Nash was better, the rest aren't. I kind of doubt you know anything about Jordan, so I'll just stop arguing.
Curry, Pierce arent better shooters? Quit being a Homer damn

[Freshprince619]

Jordan was one of the greatest players of all time and was very good in many aspect of the game. One can debate that he is as complete as Kobe, but to say he had great range is plain STUPID.

Yes, he was great but his range was very weak.
Exactly. Just because he was so good people will hype up his weakness and act like he was perfect. I bet in 20 years they will be saying Lebron had one of the most deadly jumpers ever smh

[abdubaba]

Zone was illegal up to 2002. Might want to learn your sport
:roll: owned

[TheLogo]

It's refreshing to see people recognize that MJ's range was weak.

Too bad it took all these years for fans to see this.

[ginobli2311]

:roll: owned

are you serious.....go back and watch tape....teams found a way to essentially play zone against the bulls all the time.

morons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tXwAhMVb1Y

[LAClipsFan33]

Jordan would have sliced through that weakass Suns zone and dunked on them until they came out of it

[ginobli2311]

seriously...watch the video in my post. look at the physical defense and hand checking that was allowed....its not even close....jordan would have averaged over 40 a game in this era on 55% shooting easily. he would have shot 15 free throws a game.

[Foster5k]

People are forgetting that Jordan is the best scorer to ever play the game. A simple zone defense would be no match for Micheal Jordan.

The guy could make ridiculously tough shots consistently. It's not a matter of range. It's a matter of Jordan finding a way to adapt to any defense and get what he wanted whenever he wanted. Jordan would find a way to adapt to the zone and demolish it.

I would love to watch a prime Jordan making circus shots on the zone defense of today's NBA. Jordan is the best. :D

Hell, even Kobe Bryant was going off on the zone defense. Imagine what Jordan would do. Just imagine that.

[Freshprince619]

seriously...watch the video in my post. look at the physical defense and hand checking that was allowed....its not even close....jordan would have averaged over 40 a game in this era on 55% shooting easily. he would have shot 15 free throws a game.
First he played against zones and then now he can average 40 a game.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[abdubaba]

seriously...watch the video in my post. look at the physical defense and hand checking that was allowed....its not even close....jordan would have averaged over 40 a game in this era on 55% shooting easily. he would have shot 15 free throws a game.
shoulda coulda woulda.

jordan was quoted as saying he wouldnt have let kobe drop 81 on his team.

well, kobe dropped 46 in a half on his ass. his teams ass. he didnt do shit abt it.

wtf MJ?

[amfirst]

MJ wouldn't do as well against a zone defense. ZOne is made to trap superstars. U can't slice through it, if done correctly. U have to pass the ball around to mess up the zone. If your driving to the basket, u'll be going up against 4 players. So u need a pretty good jump shot or good at swinging the ball to the weak side, but that requires team work, not individually.

If LeBron couldn't break the zone, I doubt MJ could too, unless he shoots the jumper, which LeBron was no good at.

[ginobli2311]

MJ wouldn't do as well against a zone defense. ZOne is made to trap superstars. U can't slice through it, if done correctly. U have to pass the ball around to mess up the zone. If your driving to the basket, u'll be going up against 4 players. So u need a pretty good jump shot or good at swinging the ball to the weak side, but that requires team work, not individually.

If LeBron couldn't break the zone, I doubt MJ could too, unless he shoots the jumper.

people...for the last time....teams routinely trapped jordan every single time he touched the ball. my god....you either are just dumb or you didn't watch the games.

[abdubaba]

people...for the last time....teams routinely trapped jordan every single time he touched the ball. my god....you either are just dumb or you didn't watch the games.

trapping and Zone D are different things.

what r u? stupid?

[OldSchoolBBall]

Im convinced it would decrease his effectiveness drastically. Jordan was a good jump shooter but not Great. And Zone will make you settle for 3's and long jumpers.

What do yall think?

LMAO

Jordan was a DOMINANT slasher/finisher a la Lebron/Wade, and had at least as good a 15-22 foot shot as Kobe. He was also far better at moving without the ball and finding seams and exploiting them instantly, never dawdling with the ball. He would murder this league to the tune of 33/6.5+/6+/3/1+/51% FG conservatively. Get real, kid.

[SmoothRED]

He would average about 50 points a game.

[Foster5k]

Didn't Jordan dominate the zone defense in college?

/thread

[TheLogo]

A lot of you girls in here need to get off Jordan's nuts.

[branslowski]

LMAO

Jordan was a DOMINANT slasher/finisher a la Lebron/Wade, and had at least as good a 15-22 foot shot as Kobe. He was also far better at moving without the ball and finding seams and exploiting them instantly, never dawdling with the ball. He would murder this league to the tune of 33/6.5+/6+/3/1+/51% FG conservatively. Get real, kid.

I agree with this post...I swear Loki= The only Logical Jordan fan


But f*ck the Epic Jordan dick biters....Bruce-"Jordan would avg 50ppg on 53%fg in this era"...:roll:

[OldSchoolBBall]

MJ doesn't have the range in his jumpshot. If it was MJ against the Suns, his team would not do too well.

Jordan would have averaged 38/8/8+/52% against the Suns if they played him the way they played Kobe. Period. Kobe got a ton of looks off ball reversals where he'd have open looks or semi-open looks, and where the defenders were out of position trying to rotate and he'd exploit it for easy scores (to his credit), especially against Nash.

Jordan was Kobe on steroids ('89-'93). Again, kiddies need to go watch some games and grow up.

[LAClipsFan33]

Jordan would have averaged 38/8/8+/52% against the Suns if they played him the way they played Kobe. Period. Kobe got a ton of looks off ball reversals where he'd have open looks or semi-open looks, and where the defenders were out of position trying to rotate and he'd exploit it for easy scores (to his credit), especially against Nash.

Jordan was Kobe on steroids ('89-'93). Again, kiddies need to go watch some games and grow up.

This.

[TheLogo]

I feel bad for these fans living in the past. I mean they are just kids who watch MJ on youtube when my trained eyes have been watching ball for a long time.

[Freshprince619]

Didn't Jordan dominate the zone defense in college?

/thread


Yeah so did Michael Beasley :rolleyes:

[LAClipsFan33]

There was this channel called WGN that was pretty popular in the 90's. They played the Bulls games live. I watched. I enjoyed. I know.

[Foster5k]

Trained eyes huh?

What about Jordan shooting over 50% vs a true zone defense while playing at UNC for the 3 years he was there?

Jordan dominated in any defense. Point blank.

[TheLogo]

Jordan dominated in any defense. Point blank.

....and the slurping continues.....

[plowking]

So wait, some of you are saying he would have trouble against the Celtics zone, or Phoenix zone?

Well lets look at what Wade did. 34ppg on 56% shooting against the best defensive team in the league.
Now Jordan is a better jumpshooter and driver than Wade is. The only thing Wade has on Jordan is ball handling pretty much, and it's not how he broke down the zone.

So with Wade averaging 34ppg against the zone, and Jordan's game being more refined in nearly all areas, I'd say he'd do just fine against the Suns and Celtics.

[Foster5k]

Yeah so did Michael Beasley :rolleyes:

Okay Mr. Smart guy. Try this on for sides.

A 39-40 year old Jordan shot 42% and averaged about 21-22 PPG, while playing for the Washington Wizards. Oh and by the way, the zone defense was legal then.

Image, just imagine if that was Prime Air Jordan. :D

/thread

[Freshprince619]

So wait, some of you are saying he would have trouble against the Celtics zone, or Phoenix zone?

Well lets look at what Wade did. 34ppg on 56% shooting against the best defensive team in the league.
Now Jordan is a better jumpshooter and driver than Wade is. The only thing Wade has on Jordan is ball handling pretty much, and it's not how he broke down the zone.

So with Wade averaging 34ppg against the zone, and Jordan's game being more refined in nearly all areas, I'd say he'd do just fine against the Suns and Celtics.
Are you serious or just being stupid? Wade shot lights out that series. And had the series of his life. You're acting as if that series was just a everyday thing for Wade. And if you watched he got a lot of fast-break dunks and lay-ups

[asdf1990]

jordan would average 40-50 ppg against suns ***** zone and he would have a field day with grant fuking hill guarding him. jordan had one of the greatest mid range game ever known to mankind, kobe makes three fadeaways and suddenly his midrange game is better then jordans, news flash jordan made a living on these kinds of shots.

[TheLogo]

So wait, some of you are saying he would have trouble against the Celtics zone, or Phoenix zone?

Well lets look at what Wade did. 34ppg on 56% shooting against the best defensive team in the league.
Now Jordan is a better jumpshooter and driver than Wade is. The only thing Wade has on Jordan is ball handling pretty much, and it's not how he broke down the zone.

So with Wade averaging 34ppg against the zone, and Jordan's game being more refined in nearly all areas, I'd say he'd do just fine against the Suns and Celtics.

ISH is infamous for speculating.

If Player A did this than Player B will do this better....ROFL

I can play that game too....put Kobe on the Bulls and they win 8 rings in a row because Kobe didn't gamble his father's life nor gambled on NBA games.

See how stupid speculating is....

[Freshprince619]

Okay Mr. Smart guy. Try this on for sides.

A 39-40 year old Jordan shot 42% and averaged about 21-22 PPG, while playing for the Washington Wizards. Oh and by the way, the zone defense was legal then.

Image, just imagine if that was Prime Air Jordan. :D

/thread

Look at this. Joe Johnson put up 25 5 5 on 45% shooting in the regular season.

And then shot 20% against Magic.


Lebron killed Boston in the regular season. In the play-offs? Got embarrassed

[OldSchoolBBall]

Kobe fans are literally OUT OF CONTROL the last few days since Kobe's played excellent ball the last two series. It's just ridiculous.

I've always said that Kobe gets hyped well beyond his actual ability/value as a player as soon as he plays well. Jordan always played better than his hype. And he was majorly hyped. Big difference.

[Foster5k]

Look at this. Joe Johnson put up 25 5 5 on 45% shooting in the regular season.

And then shot 20% against Magic.


Lebron killed Boston in the regular season. In the play-offs? Got embarrassed

:oldlol: comparing Jordan to Joe Johnson and Lebron

[Freshprince619]

:oldlol: comparing Jordan to Joe Johnson and Lebron
40 year old Jordan was better then them? :rolleyes:

[Chalkmaze]

The league used to have teams that basically played a zone a good portion of the time, and in 1989 tweaked the rules more. Jordan was doing just fine kicking the leagues ass individually back then (wasn't much of a team player, or had the teammates yet).

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/orlandosentinel/access/89890424.html?dids=89890424:89890424&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Sep+18%2C+1989&author=Barry+Cooper+of+The+Sentinel+Staff&pub=Orlando+Sentinel&desc=NBA+TO+ENFORCE+ZONING+LAWS%2C+STAY+WITH+MAN-TO-MAN&pqatl=google


[Rod Thorn] said referees will be instructed to more aggressively enforce the rules regarding double-teaming. Many teams utilize a half- court trap, which is essentially a double-team. Some teams disguise a zone by having a player run out as if to help trap a player. However, the player will fake the trap and actually patrol an area. That creates a zone defense. - Sept. 1989

[bagelred]

It's refreshing to see people recognize that MJ's range was weak.

Too bad it took all these years for fans to see this.

Yup. It really held him back as a player.

[TheLogo]

Kobe fans are literally OUT OF CONTROL the last few days since Kobe's played excellent ball the last two series. It's just ridiculous.

I've always said that Kobe gets hyped well beyond his actual ability/value as a player as soon as he plays well. Jordan always played better than his hype. And he was majorly hyped. Big difference.

LOL

MJ was the king of hype. The reason why people think he's the GOAT is because of Phil Knight and Nike. Those ad campaigns had a major influence on the public.

...and NO, he didn't play above his hype.

[asdf1990]

why are kobe fans so retarded?

[plowking]

ISH is infamous for speculating.

If Player A did this than Player B will do this better....ROFL

I can play that game too....put Kobe on the Bulls and they win 8 rings in a row because Kobe didn't gamble his father's life nor gambled on NBA games.

See how stupid speculating is....

So what you're really saying is...

http://sunnyskeptic.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/crying-baby-party-56800676.jpg
"Kobe's not better than Jordan. WAAAAAAAAAA"

[Foster5k]

40 year old Jordan was better then them? :rolleyes:

I said imagine a prime Jordan vs the zone. If a 39-40 year old Jordan could shoot 42% and average about 21-22 PPG vs the zone, while playing for the Wizards, there's no doubt that a Prime Jordan would dominate vs the zone.

[OldSchoolBBall]

...and NO, he didn't play above his hype.

Of course he did. Everyone from fans to analysts to coaches have said precisely that. Jordan always delivered and always exceeded his substantial hype.

[TheLogo]

why are kobe fans so retarded?

Because I don't jerk off to MJ in a Hane's commercial or proclaiming him the greatest....I get labeled as Kobe fan?

When losing in an argument....go ahead and call people Kobe fans?....ISH cop out.

[asdf1990]

LOL

MJ was the king of hype. The reason why people think he's the GOAT is because of Phil Knight and Nike. Those ad campaigns had a major influence on the public.

...and NO, he didn't play above his hype.

11 MVps, 8 scoring titles, DPOY> 2 MVPS and 2 scoring titles with a bunch of bs 1st defensive team votes.

u mad that despite playing more years in the league kobe will be light years behind jordan?

[TheLogo]

So what you're really saying is...

http://sunnyskeptic.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/crying-baby-party-56800676.jpg
"Kobe's not better than Jordan. WAAAAAAAAAA"

Reading comprehension player.

I never said Kobe is better.....I was speculating like many in here like to do.

[Foster5k]

Because I don't jerk off to MJ in a Hane's commercial or proclaiming him the greatest....I get labeled as Kobe fan?

When losing in an argument....go ahead and call people Kobe fans?....ISH cop out.

Let's see how Kobe does vs the zone at age 39-40. :D

[Batz]

He would probably do good just as Kobe did with the suns. But his lack of 3pt range will hurt him. I see his efficiency dropping but still be able to dominate offensively.

[OldSchoolBBall]

The best part about juvenile cretins like FreshPrince is that they actually believe that Kobe is a substantially better shooter than Jordan inside 23 feet when in reality not only is he NOT a better shooter inside 23 feet, but inside 22 feet Jordan is clearly more consistent, and his advantage gets larger the closer in you get (18 footers, 14 footers etc.). They're about equal in the 22-23 foot range, but that's about it.

[plowking]

LOL

MJ was the king of hype. The reason why people think he's the GOAT is because of Phil Knight and Nike. Those ad campaigns had a major influence on the public.

...and NO, he didn't play above his hype.

No, he really did.

Jordan is hyped as the best ever. Let's make a checklist to see if he meets that hype:

Best playoff numbers ever: check
Best career numbers ever: check
Most finals MVP's ever: check
Amongst the most MVP's ever: check
Amongst the most championships: check
Longevity: check
Amazing career totals: check

Seems like he passes the hype test.

Let's look at Kobe now, touted as the next MJ:

33/6/6 playoff averages vs Kobe's 25/5/5 - doesn't live up to Jordan.
Career averages - doesn't live up to Jordan
MVP's - doesn't live up to Jordan
Finals MVP's - doesn't live up to Jordan
Championships - Doesn't live up to Jordan

So who really didn't meet their hype?

[OldSchoolBBall]

No, he really did.

Jordan is hyped as the best ever. Let's make a checklist to see if he meets that hype:

Best playoff numbers ever: check
Best career numbers ever: check
Most finals MVP's ever: check
Amongst the most MVP's ever: check
Amongst the most championships: check
Longevity: check
Amazing career totals: check

Seems like he passes the hype test.

Let's look at Kobe now, touted as the next MJ:

33/6/6 playoff averages vs Kobe's 25/5/5 - doesn't live up to Jordan.
Career averages - doesn't live up to Jordan
MVP's - doesn't live up to Jordan
Finals MVP's - doesn't live up to Jordan
Championships - Doesn't live up to Jordan

So who really didn't meet their hype?

Exactly my point. Kobe is hyped well beyond his actual prodution and impact and ability as a player. Jordan is hyped as one of the GOATs and meets or exceeded that hype consistently as measured by production, accolades, and titles.

[Foster5k]

This turned into a Kobe vs Jordan vs Lebron thread quick.

[DonDadda59]

Great to see some things never change :roll:

Zone D, people are still talking about this? So Kobe can score easily on the Suns' zone but he can't make a dent in the Cs Zone (and Boston doesn't play any zone)... is the Boston zone some sort of super secret one that players not named Dwyane Wade can't figure out?

Thanks for reminding me why I don't post on this idiotic forum anymore OP. :oldlol:

[TheLogo]

No, he really did.

Jordan is hyped as the best ever. Let's make a checklist to see if he meets that hype:

Best playoff numbers ever: check
Best career numbers ever: check
Most finals MVP's ever: check
Amongst the most MVP's ever: check
Amongst the most championships: check
Longevity: check
Amazing career totals: check

Seems like he passes the hype test.

Let's look at Kobe now, touted as the next MJ:

33/6/6 playoff averages vs Kobe's 25/5/5 - doesn't live up to Jordan.
Career averages - doesn't live up to Jordan
MVP's - doesn't live up to Jordan
Finals MVP's - doesn't live up to Jordan
Championships - Doesn't live up to Jordan

So who really didn't meet their hype?

Kobe overachieved in my opinion.

Never really was hyped as the next big thing. The only reason why it seemed like he was hyped was the heir apparent to MJ.

There won't be an heir apparent to MJ because I think Kobe is carving out a nice piece of legacy for himself.

At the age of 31, Kobe's game has evolved and the comparisons with him and MJ are slowly going away because of the difference in how they play in the twilight of their careers.

What I see now is the "Who's better" argument and Kobe is slowly getting the nod....where years ago, he wasn't in the discussion with MJ.

[Foster5k]

Thanks for reminding me why I don't post on this idiotic forum anymore:

You just did. :confusedshrug:

but yeah.. I agree with you

[OnceInADECADE]

Are U F#@$ing Serious Bro Go To U Tube N Watch Bruce Blitz Vids

Lol @ This Kobe Stan Lol Lol

[Fatal9]

Jordan would have a tough time with players "shading" him than anything. Knicks used to do this somewhat in the 90s (though they'd get whistled for illegal D a lot) and he always struggled against them. This is especially true if you can get a defender with good length to contest his shots. This allows you to make it tough for him on the perimeter and also take away driving lanes.

Zone would keep him from getting and finishing at the rim, but he'd create look after look for the perimeter guys. Zone itself is easy to break if you have shooters but how did Artest, Brown and others shoot for most of the series? Lakers I believe were something like 10/45 from three not including KB in those two losses. He'd have a very high assist series like Kobe did but scoring wise it really depends on how well he's shooting from 18+ feet. I also think he'd kill the Suns on the boards and could easily post a 10 rpg series with no specific body boxing him out.

The way Kobe scored in this series is NOT how you beat a zone, and unless MJ was super hot, he would not put up Kobe's scoring numbers. People have a weird idea that Kobe was just scoring on bad defense, Suns got what they wanted. They kept him from driving, getting to the FT line and forced him and the entire team into jumpers. He had a couple of open looks game to game (usually from three), but like 80% of the time his shots were well contested, or simply unguardable (when he is making 28+ ft shots). How many layups/dunks did you see Kobe get in the last 4 games? I counted 2 or 3. Granted MJ is a much better slasher, but you have to go through layers of defenders to get to the rim. MJ's post game would also be ineffective in the zone.

[Freshprince619]

The best part about juvenile cretins like FreshPrince is that they actually believe that Kobe is a substantially better shooter than Jordan inside 23 feet when in reality not only is he NOT a better shooter inside 23 feet, but inside 22 feet Jordan is clearly more consistent, and his advantage gets larger the closer in you get (18 footers, 14 footers etc.). They're about equal in the 22-23 foot range, but that's about it.
Anyone that is not a Jordan homer or didnt only remember Nike commercials knows Kobe was the superior mid-range shooter

[TheLogo]

Jordan would have a tough time with players "shading" him than anything. Knicks used to do this somewhat in the 90s (though they'd get whistled for illegal D a lot) and he always struggled against them. This is especially true if you can get a defender with good length to contest his shots. This allows you to make it tough for him on the perimeter and also take away driving lanes.

Zone would keep him from getting and finishing at the rim, but he'd create look after look for the perimeter guys. Zone itself is easy to break if you have shooters but how did Artest, Brown and others shoot for most of the series? Lakers I believe were something like 10/45 from three not including KB in those two losses. He'd have a very high assist series like Kobe did but scoring wise it really depends on how well he's shooting from 18+ feet. I also think he'd kill the Suns on the boards and could easily post a 10 rpg series with no specific body boxing him out.

The way Kobe scored in this series is NOT how you beat a zone, and unless MJ was super hot, he would not put up Kobe's scoring numbers. People have a weird idea that Kobe was just scoring on bad defense, Suns got what they wanted. They kept him from driving, getting to the FT line and forced him and the entire team into jumpers. He had a couple of open looks game to game (usually from three), but like 80% of the time his shots were well contested, or simply unguardable (when he is making 28+ ft shots). How many layups/dunks did you see Kobe get in the last 4 games? I counted 2 or 3. Granted MJ is a much better slasher, but you have to go through layers of defenders to get to the rim. MJ's post game would also be ineffective in the zone.

Very good insight.

Granted it was zone but the whole series Kobe barely went to the line and if he did it was at the end of the game.

Also, regardless of what you guys think of the zone, tough or weak, Kobe was consistently challenged with two guys' hands in his face.

[Freshprince619]

Jordan would have a tough time with players "shading" him than anything. Knicks used to do this somewhat in the 90s (though they'd get whistled for illegal D a lot) and he always struggled against them. This is especially true if you can get a defender with good length to contest his shots. This allows you to make it tough for him on the perimeter and also take away driving lanes.

Zone would keep him from getting and finishing at the rim, but he'd create look after look for the perimeter guys. Zone itself is easy to break if you have shooters but how did Artest, Brown and others shoot for most of the series? Lakers I believe were something like 10/45 from three not including KB in those two losses. He'd have a very high assist series like Kobe did but scoring wise it really depends on how well he's shooting from 18+ feet. I also think he'd kill the Suns on the boards and could easily post a 10 rpg series with no specific body boxing him out.

The way Kobe scored in this series is NOT how you beat a zone, and unless MJ was super hot, he would not put up Kobe's scoring numbers. People have a weird idea that Kobe was just scoring on bad defense, Suns got what they wanted. They kept him from driving, getting to the FT line and forced him and the entire team into jumpers. He had a couple of open looks game to game (usually from three), but like 80% of the time his shots were well contested, or simply unguardable (when he is making 28+ ft shots). How many layups/dunks did you see Kobe get in the last 4 games? I counted 2 or 3. Granted MJ is a much better slasher, but you have to go through layers of defenders to get to the rim. MJ's post game would also be ineffective in the zone.
Great post. Someone who actually knows the game and isnt a blind homer :applause: :applause:

[OldSchoolBBall]

Anyone that is not a Jordan homer or didnt only remember Nike commercials knows Kobe was the superior mid-range shooter

Kobe's midrange shot is not and has never been as consistent as Jordan's was any time after age 25-26 (1989). By age 27-28 (1991), MJ was a better midrange shooter than Kobe's ever been. You rarely see Kobe execute (and make) quick catch-and-shoots, or simply come around a screen and fire with the frequency MJ did. He also doesn't convert at nearly the same percentage on open looks as MJ did. There's a reason for this.

By 1991, Sports Illustrated was calling Jordan the best shooter in the league from 22 feet and in. But I'm sure they were brainwashed. :hammerhead:


I also disagree with Fatal9's analysis. Kobe got a TON of opportunities where the defense was not set and was off balance trying to rotate back to him or close out due to the lack of matchup coverage, and he (rightly) made quick deciions and attacked the openings for open and semi-open looks, or against huge, exploitable mismatches (namely Nash) when he had them. Ever notice how many shots Kobe dropped with Nash "on" him or near him this series? There's a reason Kobe always played on Nash's side of the zone. Smart basketball. Regardless, Jordan would destroy the Suns if they tried to play him the same way.

[DonDadda59]

Anyone that is not a Jordan homer or didnt only remember Nike commercials knows Kobe was the superior mid-range shooter

Well Tex Winter (aka the inventor of the triangle, saw both Jordan and Kobe UP CLOSE in games, practices, shootarounds, etc for their entire careers) is the biggest Jordan homer around :lol


"They both display tremendous reaction, quickness and jumping ability. Both have a good shooting touch. Some people say Kobe is a better shooter, but Michael really developed as a shooter as he went along. I don't know if Kobe is a better shooter than Michael was at his best."
-Tex Winter


try again though, I think it's adorable.

[Freshprince619]

Kobe's midrange shot is not and has never been as consistent as Jordan's was any time after age 25-26 (1989). By age 27-28 (1991), MJ was a better midrange shooter than Kobe's ever been. You rarely see Kobe execute (and make) quick catch-and-shoots, or simply come around a screen and fire with the frequency MJ did. He also doesn't convert at nearly the same percentage on open looks as MJ did. There's a reason for this.

:hammerhead:
and i can quote many newspapers, radio host, analyst saying Kobe has a better mid range game then Kobe.


By 1991, Sports Illustrated was calling Jordan the best shooter in the league from 22 feet and in. But I'm sure they were brainwashed.

Probably is Kobe was in Middle School then. Lets see what they say in 2010

[Freshprince619]

Well Tex Winter (aka the inventor of the triangle, saw both Jordan and Kobe UP CLOSE in games, practices, shootarounds, etc for their entire careers) is the biggest Jordan homer around :lol



try again though, I think it's adorable.
adorable? I wonder how old that quote is lmao

Kobe is having his best shooting season of all time this year


EDIT- Wow that quote was from 2007. You're a clown

[DonDadda59]

adorable? I wonder how old that quote is lmao

Kobe is having his best shooting season of all time this year

Kobe's best=Jordan's worst... and only bad defensive teams play zone for extended periods of time for the record. But I've been over this time and time on this board with jerk-offs like you who don't know anything about basketball, Fatal aka Mr. Waddington will tell you that.

[Fatal9]

Wilt was big on stats. One time he called me up and said, 'You know, Harvey, Michael Jordan can't hit a shot beyond 15 feet?'

I said, 'How do you know that?'

He said to me, 'Don't you watch the games?'

I said, 'I don't watch stuff like that. How do you know?'

He said, 'I watch it.'

So, during the height of Michael's career, I got the play-by-play of the first 20 Bulls games and I checked the distance of every shot Jordan took during the season and sure enough, he was shooting 38 percent from 15 feet back. So, I did 20 more and came up with the same result. So then I said, if I did 40, I might as well do 82. Wilt’s appraisal was perfect. From 13 feet back (Jordan) was 37.8 percent.

Then Wilt said, 'Jordan doesn't take any shots from seven feet in, all of those shots are drives to the basket. He doesn't take five or six footers. He goes right to the hoop.'

I tried 20 more games and ended up looking at the entire season and got the same results. Wilt's analysis held up.


I don't really believe this and I think it was early on in Jordan's career anyways (1987 or 1988), but this was posted before in some topic.

[Freshprince619]

Kobe's best=Jordan's worst... and only bad defensive teams play zone for extended periods of time for the record. But I've been over this time and time on this board with jerk-offs like you who don't know anything about basketball, Fatal aka Mr. Waddington will tell you that.
The stupidity and homerism on ish cease to amaze me

[DonDadda59]

The stupidity and homerism on ish cease to amaze me

Funny, I was thinking the same thing. But if you need to be re-educated, just let me know... I got the goods to put you in your place.

[OldSchoolBBall]

and i can quote many newspapers, radio host, analyst saying Kobe has a better mid range game then Kobe.

I don't need quotes; I see it with my own eyes. Jordan was visibly more consistent from 14-22 feet than Kobe is. I provided that quote because you acted like Jordan didn't have an all-time level midrange shot when anyone who's knowledgeable realizes that he does. The only guys even in the discussion with him (among top 75 players all-time) are Kobe, Dirk, and Bird.

[Freshprince619]

[QUOTE=Fatal9][I]Wilt was big on stats. One time he called me up and said, 'You know, Harvey, Michael Jordan can't hit a shot beyond 15 feet?'

I said, 'How do you know that?'

He said to me, 'Don't you watch the games?'

I said, 'I don't watch stuff like that. How do you know?'

He said, 'I watch it.'

So, during the height of Michael's career, I got the play-by-play of the first 20 Bulls games and I checked the distance of every shot Jordan took during the season and sure enough, he was shooting 38 percent from 15 feet back. So, I did 20 more and came up with the same result. So then I said, if I did 40, I might as well do 82. Wilt

[Real Men Wear Green]

Anyone that is not a Jordan homer or didnt only remember Nike commercials knows Kobe was the superior mid-range shooter
Now that's some nonsense. Bryant was better from three and that's the only area where he excelled Jordan. MJ beats him in every other way. MJ perfected the turnaround fadeaway that Bryant even now can only barely imitate.

[Freshprince619]

Funny, I was thinking the same thing. But if you need to be re-educated, just let me know... I got the goods to put you in your place.
Fatal9 just put your Jordan lover ass on place

[OldSchoolBBall]

Wilt was big on stats. One time he called me up and said, 'You know, Harvey, Michael Jordan can't hit a shot beyond 15 feet?'

I said, 'How do you know that?'

He said to me, 'Don't you watch the games?'

I said, 'I don't watch stuff like that. How do you know?'

He said, 'I watch it.'

So, during the height of Michael's career, I got the play-by-play of the first 20 Bulls games and I checked the distance of every shot Jordan took during the season and sure enough, he was shooting 38 percent from 15 feet back. So, I did 20 more and came up with the same result. So then I said, if I did 40, I might as well do 82. Wilt’s appraisal was perfect. From 13 feet back (Jordan) was 37.8 percent.

Then Wilt said, 'Jordan doesn't take any shots from seven feet in, all of those shots are drives to the basket. He doesn't take five or six footers. He goes right to the hoop.'

I tried 20 more games and ended up looking at the entire season and got the same results. Wilt's analysis held up.


I don't really believe this and I think it was early on in Jordan's career anyways (1987 or 1988), but this was posted before in some topic.

A cursory analysis of even a dozen games from the 1987 season will disprove this rubbish. Jordan's midrange shot from 12-19 feet was very consistent even then. As the years progressed, he extended his effective range out to 22 feet, and by 1990 was shockingly good from midrange. And regardless, we're talking about prime Jordan here, not 23 year old MJ.

[Freshprince619]

Now that's some nonsense. Bryant was better from three and that's the only area where he excelled Jordan. MJ beats him in every other way. MJ perfected the turnaround fadeaway that Bryant even now can only barely imitate.
Lol @ him baely being able to do it

Lol @ Jordan inventing the fade-away

[Real Men Wear Green]

Lol @ him baely being able to do it

Lol @ Jordan inventing the fade-away
LOL @ your literacy. "Perfected," not "invented." And it's a fact that Bryant doesn't do it nearly as well as Jordan did it. In the second three-peat MJ did not attack the basket nearly as much as when he was younger, the turnaround fade was firmly established as his go-to move. Anyone that watched the Bulls could tell you that. And yet Jordan was still shooting in the high-forties for those three seasons (49.5, 48.6, and 46.8). Why? Because he had perfected the turnaround fade. Bryant is nowhere near as good at it as Jordan was.

[DonDadda59]

Fatal9 just put your Jordan lover ass on place

Waddington is my side b*tch, he knows this. I'm thinking about making you my main squeeze though...

[QUOTE][I]The game

[juju151111]

Lol @ him baely being able to do it

Lol @ Jordan inventing the fade-away
Watch this video and listen and look at 2:32 point. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K-qGWkiKvQ This is all the proof you need. Tell me wat MJ stats say at the 2:32 POINT

[Freshprince619]

You just showed how players hated it because it would take away lanes. Kobe and numerous have went on record ans said they wish they could play with the old rules where all they had to do was beat there man.

Once again Jordan never played in Zone /

[NBASTATMAN]

I think his efficiency would drastically go down.

Jordan doesn't have range and the zone will force him to shoot in spots where he normally wouldn't shoot.


Mj had range.. What are you talking about? He didn't use the three pointer back then because not many people did... The one season he did put it into his game he shot 38 percent.. I think that was 88... Even Bird didn't take many threes.. Today's players use it because they don't have complete games...

[juju151111]

You just showed how players hated it because it would take away lanes. Kobe and numerous have went on record ans said they wish they could play with the old rules where all they had to do was beat there man.

Once again Jordan never played in Zone /
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K-qGWkiKvQ Go to 2:32 POINT and tell me wat u see????????? Good job avoiding the question

[NBASTATMAN]

You just showed how players hated it because it would take away lanes. Kobe and numerous have went on record ans said they wish they could play with the old rules where all they had to do was beat there man.

Once again Jordan never played in Zone /


WOW you are dumb.. Did you even read DONDADDA'S POST.. HE JUST KILLED YOU AND ALL THE OTHER STANS.... :roll:

[ginobli2311]

Watch this video and listen and look at 2:32 point. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K-qGWkiKvQ This is all the proof you need. Tell me wat MJ stats say at the 2:32 POINT

nice video. damn those defenses back in the day were so much better its laughable.....no wonder these guards are putting up great numbers.....an entire team would have fouled in a qtr if they played that physical now.

[OldSchoolBBall]

You just showed how players hated it because it would take away lanes. Kobe and numerous have went on record ans said they wish they could play with the old rules where all they had to do was beat there man.

Once again Jordan never played in Zone /

Except for the fact that we did see Kobe under man to man defense for the first 7-8 seasons of his career ('98-'04; team didn't really start employing zone with any regularity until the '04-'05 season), and he was never nearly as good as Jordan. Not then, not now.

[Freshprince619]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K-qGWkiKvQ Go to 2:32 POINT and tell me wat u see????????? Good job avoiding the question
Are you dumb? i said that before you posted the link the forst time.


2nd. Okay so Jordan was hot for 2 game and that tells the whole story?

[Younggrease]

By 1991, Sports Illustrated was calling Jordan the best shooter in the league from 22 feet and in. But I'm sure they were brainwashed. :hammerhead:

.

so now Sports Illustrated's opinion matters...:confusedshrug:

[DonDadda59]

You just showed how players hated it because it would take away lanes. Kobe and numerous have went on record ans said they wish they could play with the old rules where all they had to do was beat there man.

Once again Jordan never played in Zone /

You got that itch down in ya, you want that old thing back :pimp:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K-qGWkiKvQ

Jordan at age 38, scoring 35/6/6 (14-30 FG) against Flip Saunder's T'Wolves (Flip being one of the few coaches to implement zone), team led by a prime Kevin Garnett and Chauncey Billups

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmngcHYnfN0 :violin:

Keep digging.

[juju151111]

nice video. damn those defenses back in the day were so much better its laughable.....no wonder these guards are putting up great numbers.....an entire team would have fouled in a qtr if they played that physical now.
Exactly and the Zone is a gimmick said so by Larry brown, Celtics defensive coach, pat riley etc...

[BFRESH44]

Kobe Bryant stans are the absolute worst kind of poster. :oldlol: Like it doesn't get any worse with these young cats.

[Freshprince619]

You got that itch down in ya, you want that old thing back :pimp:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K-qGWkiKvQ

Jordan at age 38, scoring 35/6/6 (14-30 FG) against Flip Saunder's T'Wolves (Flip being one of the few coaches to implement zone), team led by a prime Kevin Garnett and Chauncey Billups

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmngcHYnfN0 :violin:

Keep digging.

lol @ naming the teams best players.

All i see is one on one defense. He took 30 shots.

Andre miller dropped 50. but we all know he sucks.


Jordan was just hogging to get buckets.

Wonder why they couldnt make the playoffs? even though all they needed is 40 wins? hmmmmm

[Freshprince619]

Except for the fact that we did see Kobe under man to man defense for the first 7-8 seasons of his career ('98-'04; team didn't really start employing zone with any regularity until the '04-'05 season), and he was never nearly as good as Jordan. Not then, not now.
Zone was implemented in 02.

And i see you are a huge Jordan Homer. But this thread wasnt saying Kobe>Jordan. Just that Kobe was a better shooter so how would Jordan fare against Zone

[OldSchoolBBall]

so now Sports Illustrated's opinion matters...:confusedshrug:

I didn't post it as evidence that MJ > Kobe as a midrange shooter, but merely as evidence that he was considered an elite midrange shooter. Which he was. All-time level, in fact.

You'll literally almost never see Kobe take and make the kinds of midrange shots MJ made regularly on quick catch-and-shoots. You'll never see him being nearly as consistent as MJ on open looks (did MJ ever miss an open baseline 16-18 footer? I'm not sure). You'll rarely see him coming down in transition and opting to take a 13-17 footer instead of taking it in even when he has the opening to. You (comparatively) rarely see him coming off a screen with a live dribble and just firing. He does all these things far less frequently and not as well as MJ, yet I'm supposed to believe that he not only has a better midrange shot, but has a SUBSTANTIALLY better midrange shot, to the point where it makes a difference in game situations? Sorry, but no.


Zone was implemented in 02.


Legally, yes. Anyone who was actvely watching ball back then knows that it wasn't really employed until the '04-'05 season. Certainly not in '02 or '03.


Just that Kobe was a better shooter so how would Jordan fare against Zone

Except that he's not a better shooter from 22 feet and in. And again, if you think that '89-'93 MJ wouldn't be posting AT LEAST 32.5/6.5/6/2.5/1/50+% FG today, you're absolutely insane.

[DonDadda59]

lol @ naming the teams best players.

All i see is one on one defense. He took 30 shots.

Andre miller dropped 50. but we all know he sucks.


Jordan was just hogging to get buckets.

Wonder why they couldnt make the playoffs? even though all they needed is 40 wins? hmmmmm

1 on 1 defense... in the zone era? But, but how is it possible? :eek:

Well you really refuted my points, nice job :oldlol:

And for the record, the Wizards missed the playoffs with a 38-40 year old Jordan for the same reasons the Lakers missed the playoffs with a 26 year old Kobe (only 1 season after being in the finals).

But yes, bringing up Andre Miller really bolstered your argument. Kudos :applause:

[Freshprince619]

1 on 1 defense... in the zone era? But, but how is it possible? :eek:

Well you really refuted my points, nice job :oldlol:

And for the record, the Wizards missed the playoffs with a 38-40 year old Jordan for the same reasons the Lakers missed the playoffs with a 26 year old Kobe (only 1 season after being in the finals).

But yes, bringing up Andre Miller really bolstered your argument. Kudos :applause:
To put your stupidity to rest.

Teams dont play hard nose defense in regular season.

Look @ when Lebron played Boston in the regular season. He was going by Pierce and getting lay up after lay up. Just killing them. What happened in the play-offs? Lebron was embarrassed. He was shadowed consonantly and as soon as he was on iso they came to double team .


If you think scoring 35 on 30 shots in the regular season is impressive you are a fool

[TheLogo]

To put your stupidity to rest.

Teams dont play hard nose defense in regular season.

Look @ when Lebron played Boston in the regular season. He was going by Pierce and getting lay up after lay up. Just killing them. What happened in the play-offs? Lebron was embarrassed. He was shadowed consonantly and as soon as he was on iso they came to double team .


If you think scoring 40 in the regular season is impressive you are a fool

Indeed, a fool.

[NBASTATMAN]

lol @ naming the teams best players.

All i see is one on one defense. He took 30 shots.

Andre miller dropped 50. but we all know he sucks.


Jordan was just hogging to get buckets.

Wonder why they couldnt make the playoffs? even though all they needed is 40 wins? hmmmmm



Without Phil Jackson Kobe led a team with much better talent than Mj's wizard teams to a record of 34 wins and 48 losses... Lakers all time worse record..

[DonDadda59]

To put your stupidity to rest.

Teams dont play hard nose defense in regular season.

Look @ when Lebron played Boston in the regular season. He was going by Pierce and getting lay up after lay up. Just killing them. What happened in the play-offs? Lebron was embarrassed. He was shadowed consonantly and as soon as he was on iso they came to double team .


If you think scoring 40 in the regular season is impressive you are a fool

Lebron lost his heart for one reason or another that is still a mystery, the first few games of the series he murked the Celtics, didn't he score like 20-something in the first quarter against them in one game?

Regardless, has nothing to do with this thread because the Cs don't play zone... so...

do you even know what you're trying to argue anymore?

[juju151111]

Are you dumb? i said that before you posted the link the forst time.


2nd. Okay so Jordan was hot for 2 game and that tells the whole story?
MJ would just shoot over it like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chJeKE2646U&feature=related

[Freshprince619]

Lebron lost his heart for one reason or another that is still a mystery, the first few games of the series he murked the Celtics, didn't he score like 20-something in the first quarter against them in one game?

Regardless, has nothing to do with this thread because the Cs don't play zone... so...

do you even know what you're trying to argue anymore?


Facepalm...


Im done with you

[DonDadda59]

Facepalm...


Im done with you

But of course.

Just another sample before you go though.



"Thibodeau's (Boston assistant coach/defensive schemer) defensive scheme is a bug-free marriage of hardware and software. The programming is straight out of the Van Gundy manual: Keep the ball out of the paint, shrink the floor by overloading defenders to one side and try to contest every shot. Rarely does Thibodeau tweak the game plan by calling a variety of sets from the sideline. The Celtics are committed to their basic man-to-man principles , and when a certain approach isn't working, the staff's first adjustment is to demand greater effort."

-SI.com

Oh, and...


"It's starting to look like [Flip] Saunders' team, too, judging by the faster ball and player movement in the Pistons' embryonic new offense ... and the expanded role for Darko Milicic ... and the sprinkles of zone defense seen throughout training camp so far.

They've been so open that Saunders waited only one day before running the proud Pistons through some zone concepts. He sees too much length, quickness and athleticism on Detroit's front line to resist the idea, even though he knows that the Pistons of [Larry] Brown vintage were adamant that real men don't zone."

-ESPN

So arguably the 2 best defensive squads of the last decade shun the zone for what it is- a gimmick that coaches use to hide weak defensive players, that can be EASILY dealt with (see the youth coach at your local rec center for tips).

But Kobe shat the bed against these teams because they play zone, right?

:roll:

[Freshprince619]

But of course.

Just another sample before you go though.



Oh, and...



So arguably the 2 best defensive squads of the last decade shun the zone for what it is- a gimmick that coaches use to hide weak defensive players, that can be EASILY dealt with (see the youth coach at your local rec center for tips).

But Kobe shat the bed against these teams because they play zone, right?

:roll:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nepmd2ygMK4

/ Stop with that blasphemy

[DonDadda59]

:oldlol:

The spirit of KB42pah lives through dunces all over the net. You just lost all credibility you could've ever had by posting that. If you would stop daydreaming about gargling Kobe's sac, then maybe you would be able to tell the difference between man D w/ help/rotations and f*cking zone you clown.

But then again you are the closet case who posted a thread in the OTC about passing on p*ssy to go jerk off to Kobe jumpshots. So it's understandable that your homerism crossing over into homoerotic obsession would blind you.

Kill yourself.

[Real Men Wear Green]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nepmd2ygMK4

/ Stop with that blasphemy
Did you really post that whiny-ass dumb**** video where the dumb**** narrator ******* about the fact that the Celtics were actually playing defense? "Kobe is being doubled, they don't want him too score, waaah, boo-hoo." The guy actually says, "Kobe can't even post up without being doubled." Yeah, that's what good defenses do against elite scorers. Guy is an idiot. If they want to blame someone they can blame the Lakers for putting out a team that had player the Cs felt safe doubling Bryant off of. Kobe has to pass and other Lakers have to make plays. Boo-hoo, the end.

[Freshprince619]

Did you really post that whiny-ass dumb**** video where the dumb**** narrator ******* about the fact that the Celtics were actually playing defense? "Kobe is being doubled, they don't want him too score, waaah, boo-hoo." The guy actually says, "Kobe can't even post up without being doubled." Yeah, that's what good defenses do against elite scorers. Guy is an idiot. If they want to blame someone they can blame the Lakers for putting out a team that had player the Cs felt safe doubling Bryant off of. Kobe has to pass and other Lakers have to make plays. Boo-hoo, the end.
LMAO! The guy is a Homer. But i was just pointing out that Celtics do in fact play zone, I could care less what they guy said,. But he had good footage of the defense they played on him. Im sorry i could upload highlights myself lol.

Im just proving this DonDadda clown he dont know what he's talking about

[DonDadda59]

Im just proving this DonDadda clown he dont know what he's talking about

:roll:

Tell me more about the Celtics zone.

[Crystallas]

Jordan would love to go up against true zones, especially in his uber-athletic-drive-to-the-hoop years. He would post, spin, dunk, and-1, and nobody would be able to shut him down completely. If he was clean covered, he would shot-fake pass it out to the man in position. He would simply thrive. Jordan had incredible awareness of where his teamates were, even if he knew the play was all him.

[Real Men Wear Green]

The thing is, that's mainly not zone d, that's help d, and there is a difference. In a zone, each defender guards an area. But in the Celtic defense of the 2008 Finals, it was really just a focus on Bryant and preventing lay-ups in general. If Bryant was willing to settle for a jumper, he'd just get one hand in his face and the Cs would live with the result, but whenever he penetrated or posted, the help was coming. Again: that's not zone, that's double/triple-teaming. After the help comes, if Bryant passes the Cs would rely on rotations, and if he shot anyway, normally, it was a brick which was of course a win for the Cs.

[juju151111]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nepmd2ygMK4

/ Stop with that blasphemy
same narrator differentplayer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s9_GKFNL9E uwere saying?

[lilojmayo]

I've been one as you know freshprince that has said Kobe is having the greatest career ever.

However, there is a reason Kobe was passing like a PG against the Suns. Zones in general give you A lot of opening looks from the perimeter, you can honestly take one pass and fire an open 3 pointer, so the assists numbers will go up especially if someone is feeling it.

Another myth about Zone is it makes it harder to drive. If anything it makes it easier, the holes/gaps in a zone especialy a poorly ran zone is ridiculous and even more in an NBA court with the wider court and farther 3 pointer, but it does making help defense easier. Smart offense players usually always go to the side of the weaker defender also.

Michael Jordan would torch 24/7 zone defense, especially the type of zone defense that just sits in an "area". He would be a walking 30-10-10. From the videos of zone defense i saw of Jordan face they were aggressive trapping odd front zone defense , those can't seriously take you off your game and matchup zones.

[Roundball_Rock]

:oldlol: at how MJ fans constantly pull numbers out their rear. You don't see this from fans of any other retired player but you constantly hear how MJ would have averaged 47/12/9/6/4 on 68% if he played today. Get real. He was a great player, not a god.

[asd]

i know how Jordan fared against defenses that often parked their center in the paint and double teamed him. i'd rather play in any league without the 3-second rule + zone d than one with the 3-second rule.

but to answer your question, he would probably do the same thing...

penetrate the double team and dunk over the parked center
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxG6F8qKsoQ

or pass to a slashing scottie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3Kmdgrwnyo

or pass to a knock-down shooter in steve kerr
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cS5uDMErOE

or move without the ball, get open and knock down an open mid-range jumper


Also, the bulls' defense was so disruptive that defenses often couldn't settle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ngfIwMh56A

[TheLogo]

:oldlol: at how MJ fans constantly pull numbers out their rear. You don't see this from fans of any other retired player but you constantly hear how MJ would have averaged 47/12/9/6/4 on 68% if he played today. Get real. He was a great player, not a god.

Finally another poster who's in touch with reality.

The idiots think MJ is untouchable when in actuality, his range sucked.

[NBASTATMAN]

:oldlol: at how MJ fans constantly pull numbers out their rear. You don't see this from fans of any other retired player but you constantly hear how MJ would have averaged 47/12/9/6/4 on 68% if he played today. Get real. He was a great player, not a god.


Those numbers are obviously a little tad bit too high.. 40,10,8,5,3 ON 60 PERCENT shooting would be closer to reality...:bowdown: :lol

[lilojmayo]

:oldlol: at how MJ fans constantly pull numbers out their rear. You don't see this from fans of any other retired player but you constantly hear how MJ would have averaged 47/12/9/6/4 on 68% if he played today. Get real. He was a great player, not a god.

i think that was directed at me. I am both a Kobe and MJ fan. MJ did average 32-8-8 for a season. He had that stretch in 89' i think where he averaged a triple double for the last 25 games or so when he moved to pg.

So it isn't a stretch to say MJ would have Big O 30-10-10 in at least 1 season, in a poorly relax guard you area zone, if everyteam played zone like the Suns.

I thought most learned from an early age that in Zone defense it is harder to box out, meaning given up rebounds ( increase in rebounds), and it is easier to rack up assists if you attack a zone to where they collaspe.

Zone isn't ran much in the NBA, and if it is unless it is by a defensive minded coach or team like the Spurs, Celtics, or Larry Brown. It is extremely poorly ran, and it doesn't help that the big guy can't camp in the lane either.

[juju151111]

:oldlol: at how MJ fans constantly pull numbers out their rear. You don't see this from fans of any other retired player but you constantly hear how MJ would have averaged 47/12/9/6/4 on 68% if he played today. Get real. He was a great player, not a god.
34,7,7, 51%

[sekachu]

You're saying Jordan had an elite jumper even tho lacking range.
I can name a handful of players TODAY who have better jumpers then Jordan.
So he is far from elite

did you ever watch 96, 97 and 98 MJ? He was almost a pure shooter still making 46% at age 34 in 98. what does it tell you?

[Freshprince619]

i think that was directed at me. I am both a Kobe and MJ fan. MJ did average 32-8-8 for a season. He had that stretch in 89' i think where he averaged a triple double for the last 25 games or so when he moved to pg.

So it isn't a stretch to say MJ would have Big O 30-10-10 in at least 1 season, in a poorly relax guard you area zone, if everyteam played zone like the Suns.

I thought most learned from an early age that in Zone defense it is harder to box out, meaning given up rebounds ( increase in rebounds), and it is easier to rack up assists if you attack a zone to where they collaspe.

Zone isn't ran much in the NBA, and if it is unless it is by a defensive minded coach or team like the Spurs, Celtics, or Larry Brown. It is extremely poorly ran, and it doesn't help that the big guy can't camp in the lane either.
Im sorry but the Jordan Hype train continues.

Look what Nike has poor kids thinking SMH

[sekachu]

Jordan was one of the greatest players of all time and was very good in many aspect of the game. One can debate that he is as complete as Kobe, but to say he had great range is plain STUPID.

Yes, he was great but his range was very weak.



96, 97, 98 MJ would be ideal for you to watch

[che guevara]

Im sorry but the Jordan Hype train continues.

Look what Nike has poor kids thinking SMH
Jordan had a string of 10 triple doubles in 11 games in March/April of '89 when he moved to PG. He averaged 28.5 ppg, 8.7 rebounds and 11.2 assists in March of '89 and 32.7 ppg, 9.4 rebounds and 9.3 assists in April. He had a 15 game stretch where he averaged a triple double. The part of his post you bolded wasn't nearly the worst part - there is zero chance of Jordan averaging a triple double for an entire season in today's league. The league plays at a slower pace now than in the late 80s/early 90s. He would probably score more due to the perimeter friendly rules though.


96, 97, 98 MJ would be ideal for you to watch
His range was basically fully developed by 1990. He averaged 37.6% on 3s that season on 3 attempts per game. His range was also worse in '98 than in years prior due to a finger injury.

[sekachu]

shoulda coulda woulda.

jordan was quoted as saying he wouldnt have let kobe drop 81 on his team.

well, kobe dropped 46 in a half on his ass. his teams ass. he didnt do shit abt it.

wtf MJ?


46 relate to 81???

[guado]

Im sorry but the Jordan Hype train continues.

Look what Nike has poor kids thinking SMH


well, it was pretty close

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1989/

[OldSchoolBBall]

Im sorry but the Jordan Hype train continues.

Look what Nike has poor kids thinking SMH

Err, Jordan averaged 30.2 pts/9.3 reb/11.2 ast/51% FG over the final 25 games of the '89 season, so he's basically right.

[pethuel03]

These Kobe Homer Clowns Are Just ****ing Stupid..........

[PowerGlove]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K-qGWkiKvQ Go to 2:32 POINT and tell me wat u see????????? Good job avoiding the question
:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: Knicks defense.:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

We need more defense like that now. That was amazing.

[TheLogo]

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: Knicks defense.:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

We need more defense like that now. That was amazing.

Knocking a guy down and using dirty tactics does not equate to good defense.

[sekachu]

trapping and Zone D are different things.

what r u? stupid?



who stupid huh?


MJ was a 10 times scoring champ, he had faced all type of defense in his career. god dxxx it, you are doubting a 10 times scoring champ? wth, you think he is lucky?

[PowerGlove]

Knocking a guy down and using dirty tactics does not equate to good defense.
:oldlol: Did you watch the vid? The way they clogged the lane and then rotated seamlessly to contest the shot after the pass would make Hubie Brown smile.

[BlueandGold]

Hand checking > zone defense

[32jazz]

Im convinced it would decrease his effectiveness drastically. Jordan was a good jump shooter but not Great. And Zone will make you settle for 3's and long jumpers.

What do yall think?

We will never know ,but the only evidence(besides college) we have of MJ playing against a zone was the 1992 Olympics. And FG% wise he was the worst pro player on the team(he & Laettner shot 45%).

5 players shot near 60 percent from the field or above in Barcelona:

Barkley(71%)
Malone(64%)
Mullin(61%)
Ewing(62%)


The rest shot at least 50 or above:

Pippen(59%) damn near 60%
D Rob(57%)
Drexler(57%)
Magic(56%)
Bird(injured)52%
Stockton(50%)


And the teams worst
Laettner(45%)
M Jordan(45%):confusedshrug:

Now I'm sure the typical MJ fans( losers) who come on here & call players 'chuckers' because they shoot 45% or below will have their usual excuses.


It would limit MJ's effectiveness as a scorer & I remember players like Magic being against the zone (when it was suggested during his playing days) because he felt it would stifle 'players creativity'.


Don't let fools like dada come here & tell you what the current Celtics do on defense would be allowed in Jordans era. IT WOULD NOT & they would be called for illegal defenses. Though what teams like the current Celtics & Ben Wallace/Prince Pistons may not be 'techinically' zone defenses they shade players which was not aloowed before illegal defenses was banned.

During the Dream Team era you had to play man or a 'hard' double team. Now players can spy/shade between his man & another defender. That was once illegal to allow for more mam to man/ creativity.

Thank goodness the old iso days of the Dream team Era (bogging down offenses) is gone.

[CeltsGarlic]

We will never know ,but the only evidence(besides college) we have of MJ playing against a zone was the 1992 Olympics. And FG% wise he was the worst pro player on the team(he & Laettner shot 45%).

5 players shot near 60 percent from the field or above in Barcelona:

Barkley(71%)
Malone(64%)
Mullin(61%)
Ewing(62%)


The rest shot at least 50 or above:

Pippen(59%) damn near 60%
D Rob(57%)
Drexler(57%)
Magic(56%)
Bird(injured)52%
Stockton(50%)


And the teams worst
Laettner(45%)
M Jordan(45%):confusedshrug:

Now I'm sure the typical MJ fans( losers) who come on here & call players 'chuckers' because they shoot 45% or below will have their usual excuses.


It would limit MJ's effectiveness as a scorer & I remember players like Magic being against the zone (when it was suggested during his playing days) because he felt it would stifle 'players creativity'.


Don't let fools like dada come here & tell you what the current Celtics do on defense would be allowed in Jordans era. IT WOULD NOT & they would be called for illegal defenses. Though what teams like the current Celtics & Ben Wallace/Prince Pistons may not be 'techinically' zone defenses they shade players which was not aloowed before illegal defenses was banned.

During the Dream Team era you had to play man or a 'hard' double team. Now players can spy/shade between his man & another defender. That was once illegal to allow for more mam to man/ creativity.

Thank goodness the old iso days of the Dream team Era (bogging down offenses) is gone.

Great post, totally agree, Jordon was overrated.I'm not saying that he wasnt great ,but definitely not the best.

[Roundball_Rock]

i think that was directed at me. I am both a Kobe and MJ fan.

No, it was directed at about half a dozen posts I saw while skimming the thread. What amuses me is they take whatever a current player, whether Kobe or Lebron is doing, and then add something like 5/2/2 on substantially greater effiency to it. If Lebron averages 34/9/10 on 52% next year MJ fans would say MJ would have put up 40/11/13 on 61%. :lol Do you see Magic fans saying he would put up 27/11/17 on 58% or Kareem fans saying he would put up 41/17/8/7 on 71% today?


We will never know ,but the only evidence(besides college) we have of MJ playing against a zone was the 1992 Olympics. And FG% wise he was the worst pro player on the team(he & Laettner shot 45%).

5 players shot near 60 percent from the field or above in Barcelona:

Barkley(71%)
Malone(64%)
Mullin(61%)
Ewing(62%)


The rest shot at least 50 or above:

Pippen(59%) damn near 60%
D Rob(57%)
Drexler(57%)
Magic(56%)
Bird(injured)52%
Stockton(50%)


And the teams worst
Laettner(45%)
M Jordan(45%)


Great point. Jordan shot the worst but still led the team in FGA--by a large margin. As Doug Collins once privately said about him when he coached him, "he won't let go of the ball." This is why I :roll: when people talk of hypothetical teams in which Jordan is paired with another 28-30 ppg scorer. They wouldn't be able to coexist.

[guy]

We will never know ,but the only evidence(besides college) we have of MJ playing against a zone was the 1992 Olympics. And FG% wise he was the worst pro player on the team(he & Laettner shot 45%).

5 players shot near 60 percent from the field or above in Barcelona:

Barkley(71%)
Malone(64%)
Mullin(61%)
Ewing(62%)


The rest shot at least 50 or above:

Pippen(59%) damn near 60%
D Rob(57%)
Drexler(57%)
Magic(56%)
Bird(injured)52%
Stockton(50%)


And the teams worst
Laettner(45%)
M Jordan(45%):confusedshrug:

Now I'm sure the typical MJ fans( losers) who come on here & call players 'chuckers' because they shoot 45% or below will have their usual excuses.


It would limit MJ's effectiveness as a scorer & I remember players like Magic being against the zone (when it was suggested during his playing days) because he felt it would stifle 'players creativity'.


Don't let fools like dada come here & tell you what the current Celtics do on defense would be allowed in Jordans era. IT WOULD NOT & they would be called for illegal defenses. Though what teams like the current Celtics & Ben Wallace/Prince Pistons may not be 'techinically' zone defenses they shade players which was not aloowed before illegal defenses was banned.

During the Dream Team era you had to play man or a 'hard' double team. Now players can spy/shade between his man & another defender. That was once illegal to allow for more mam to man/ creativity.

Thank goodness the old iso days of the Dream team Era (bogging down offenses) is gone.

Are you seriously using the Dream Team as evidence for anything?

[kurple]

MJ doesn't have the range in his jumpshot. If it was MJ against the Suns, his team would not do too well.
THIS is the reason why Kobe is so hated

[juju151111]

We will never know ,but the only evidence(besides college) we have of MJ playing against a zone was the 1992 Olympics. And FG% wise he was the worst pro player on the team(he & Laettner shot 45%).

5 players shot near 60 percent from the field or above in Barcelona:

Barkley(71%)
Malone(64%)
Mullin(61%)
Ewing(62%)


The rest shot at least 50 or above:

Pippen(59%) damn near 60%
D Rob(57%)
Drexler(57%)
Magic(56%)
Bird(injured)52%
Stockton(50%)


And the teams worst
Laettner(45%)
M Jordan(45%):confusedshrug:

Now I'm sure the typical MJ fans( losers) who come on here & call players 'chuckers' because they shoot 45% or below will have their usual excuses.


It would limit MJ's effectiveness as a scorer & I remember players like Magic being against the zone (when it was suggested during his playing days) because he felt it would stifle 'players creativity'.


Don't let fools like dada come here & tell you what the current Celtics do on defense would be allowed in Jordans era. IT WOULD NOT & they would be called for illegal defenses. Though what teams like the current Celtics & Ben Wallace/Prince Pistons may not be 'techinically' zone defenses they shade players which was not aloowed before illegal defenses was banned.

During the Dream Team era you had to play man or a 'hard' double team. Now players can spy/shade between his man & another defender. That was once illegal to allow for more mam to man/ creativity.

Thank goodness the old iso days of the Dream team Era (bogging down offenses) is gone.
LMAO comparing games that wasn't even close. Show me KB olympic % compared to dwade and LJ?? ARe you fuking stupid??? None of those gms were even close. MJ was messing around unless you think MJ was playing serious up by 30 every gm. I guess LJ/Wade

KB shot 46% Wade 67% Wade>>KB in jumpshooting?? Stay off the pipe younster. Wade shot 47% from 3s while KB 32%. These were actually close gms you dumb****. We also have to take into account that MJ/KB were coming off title runs has the man and tired. :no: :violin: Come back with something stronger next time:lol :oldlol: :roll: :roll: MJ>>>KB MJ was avging like 6 stls too.

In 1992 Pat riley gameplan was to force MJ into jumpers. Lets see how that worked out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K-qGWkiKvQ go to point 2:32 and read wat you see and go to bed youngster. If thats not enough

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOS1qNTWb70&feature=related Look at the double teams and ignored his teammates completely.

Here is a voice u nutgaggers should know. A Kobe homer talking about MJ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s9_GKFNL9E LMFAO

I could post more vids, but you get the point.
:lol

[zizozain]

LOL

MJ was the king of hype. The reason why people think he's the GOAT is because of Phil Knight and Nike. Those ad campaigns had a major influence on the public.

...and NO, he didn't play above his hype.


I'm gonna come right out and say it. Michael Jordan is the most overrated player in any sport. One of the all time greats to be sure, I'm not denying that. But all the people who go around saying he's the best ever as if there's no argument are just victims of the "I let Nike/ESPN do all my thinking for me" mentality that is so prevalent today. Magic Johnson did things Jordan never could, and if he wasn't forced to retire in the prime of his career he may have ended up with more rings than Michael. Russell had more rings and was every bit the competitor Jordan ever was. Kareem was better, longer than anyone else ever was. There are plenty of yardsticks to measure with, and Jordan isn't the clear-cut best in any of them. Great? Absolutely! Greatest ever? Please.

Does anyone besides me find it odd that so many Nike sponsored athletes get annointed as the "best ever" or "best today" without actually proving it? Jordan, Woods, LeBron? Woods hasn't surpassed Nicklaus. LeBron hasn't done a damn thing except appear in some really cool commercials, but you'd think these two guys are the greatest thing out there.

Sorry, man. Somebody's got to say it. The emperor has no clothes.
Anonymous :confusedshrug:

[sekachu]

We will never know ,but the only evidence(besides college) we have of MJ playing against a zone was the 1992 Olympics. And FG% wise he was the worst pro player on the team(he & Laettner shot 45%).

5 players shot near 60 percent from the field or above in Barcelona:

Barkley(71%)
Malone(64%)
Mullin(61%)
Ewing(62%)


The rest shot at least 50 or above:

Pippen(59%) damn near 60%
D Rob(57%)
Drexler(57%)
Magic(56%)
Bird(injured)52%
Stockton(50%)


And the teams worst
Laettner(45%)
M Jordan(45%):confusedshrug:

Now I'm sure the typical MJ fans( losers) who come on here & call players 'chuckers' because they shoot 45% or below will have their usual excuses.


It would limit MJ's effectiveness as a scorer & I remember players like Magic being against the zone (when it was suggested during his playing days) because he felt it would stifle 'players creativity'.


Don't let fools like dada come here & tell you what the current Celtics do on defense would be allowed in Jordans era. IT WOULD NOT & they would be called for illegal defenses. Though what teams like the current Celtics & Ben Wallace/Prince Pistons may not be 'techinically' zone defenses they shade players which was not aloowed before illegal defenses was banned.

During the Dream Team era you had to play man or a 'hard' double team. Now players can spy/shade between his man & another defender. That was once illegal to allow for more mam to man/ creativity.

Thank goodness the old iso days of the Dream team Era (bogging down offenses) is gone.



omfg, its so dxmn obvious that MJ wasn't even try a bit when he played for dream team. i can't believe you bring this up, hahaha

[32jazz]

Are you seriously using the Dream Team as evidence for anything?


It's more reasonable than you deranged MJ worshippers 'speculating'(like you always do about someone who hasn't played a relevant game in 13 friggin'years) what he COULD do against zone defenses.:rolleyes: You guys are SPECULATING at least this is a small sample of what he ACTUALLY did when facing zone defenses.:confusedshrug:

I find it odd that MJ was the ONLY Pro baller to not shoot 50% against ZONES. By the 'MJ is God' crowd he became a 'chucker' when facing zone defenses.

That is the only evidence we have. I know you losers would prefer to SPECULATE since you can concoct your own results.:no:

I make no apologies for not worshipping another man. He is just that a man who was once relevant ON the BBall court. The former ball hogging Shoe salesman; "White Republicans buy shoes too"( & best all around Sg ever) is now just a shoe salesman. Let him be.

[sekachu]

Are you serious or just being stupid? Wade shot lights out that series. And had the series of his life. You're acting as if that series was just a everyday thing for Wade. And if you watched he got a lot of fast-break dunks and lay-ups


So the celtic zone can't stop wade then, what are trying to say?

[PistonsFan#21]

If Dwyane Wade was effective agaisnt the zone defense then i would think MJ would be just fine

[juju151111]

It's more reasonable than you deranged MJ worshippers 'speculating'(like you always do about someone who hasn't played a relevant game in 13 friggin'years) what he COULD do against zone defenses.:rolleyes: You guys are SPECULATING at least this is a small sample of what he ACTUALLY did when facing zone defenses.:confusedshrug:

I find it odd that MJ was the ONLY Pro baller to not shoot 50% against ZONES. By the 'MJ is God' crowd he became a 'chucker' when facing zone defenses.

That is the only evidence we have. I know you losers would prefer to SPECULATE since you can concoct your own results.:no:

I make no apologies for not worshipping another man. He is just that a man who was once relevant ON the BBall court. The former ball hogging Shoe salesman; "White Republicans buy shoes too"( & best all around Sg ever) is now just a shoe salesman. Let him be.
So you think Wade is a better shooter then Kobe? Good job avoiding my earlier post because you got destroyed.

[Kellogs4toniee]

Im convinced it would decrease his effectiveness drastically. Jordan was a good jump shooter but not Great. And Zone will make you settle for 3's and long jumpers.

What do yall think?

How old are you? Jordan was a great jump shooter, especially towards the later parts of his career.

[SEEBASS1234]

i don't like bruce blitz but i gotta bring him into this one

Jordan against Zone (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tXwAhMVb1Y)

Jordan against 90s and physical defenses (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5auPSMaD3vE)

Jordan against Knicks (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K-qGWkiKvQ)

Jordan against double teams/zones (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy4W5siGgcc)

[Showtime]

1. Teams rarely play a true zone.

2. MJ faced suedo zones with quick doubles and at times triples. The Jordan rules were a defensive strategy with an entire team focused on limiting one guy.

3. Kobe faced man defense with help against Boston, NOT a zone and still struggled. Same with the Pistons.

4. MJ didn't have a jumper? Bizzarro world.

5. Zones are not hard to beat. I don't understand why people think they are. There's a reason why they are used on a very limited basis: it's only a temporary distraction. Most teams don't even coach against it, which is why it may seem so effective during the few times it's actually played.

[Collie]

Lol, what is this week? Jordan-bashing time? I'd even say he's underrated in this thread. Only a "decent" jumpshooter? C'mon. DEFINITELY NOT the best? I could see people arguing against him, but to DEFINITIVELY say that he isn't the best is pretty stupid when he probably has the best argument.

[ginobli2311]

1. Teams rarely play a true zone.

2. MJ faced suedo zones with quick doubles and at times triples. The Jordan rules were a defensive strategy with an entire team focused on limiting one guy.

3. Kobe faced man defense with help against Boston, NOT a zone and still struggled. Same with the Pistons.

4. MJ didn't have a jumper? Bizzarro world.

5. Zones are not hard to beat. I don't understand why people think they are. There's a reason why they are used on a very limited basis: it's only a temporary distraction. Most teams don't even coach against it, which is why it may seem so effective during the few times it's actually played.

Yep. I'm pretty sure MJ would have loved to play against a soft zone like the Suns over playing a tough Knicks defense that trapped him at the three point line.....not even allowing him to look at the basket. Or the same defense that took flagrant fouls everytime he drove. You people really need to go back and watch tape of the defenses in the 80s and 90s.....they are light years ahead of the trash that teams play right now.

How in the hell would you guard Jordan if you couldn't hand check or grab? Ask Starks or Dumars or Rodman or Majerle or Bird or Magic or Drexler or Barkley....or any other player MJ played against how many points he would have scored with the current rules today.

Jordan would have easily averaged 5 more points per game on 5% better shooting from the field. Easily.

My god people....they changed the rules to make it easier for perimeter players to score......why do you think Nash suddenly became a 2 time MVP? You can't guard perimeter players that can shoot in the current game....its impossible. Look at the 06 Finals with Wade.......look at how great Lebron is.....and Lebron can't even shoot and he still gets to the line 10 times a game. Its a joke.....the NBA made the game easier on its star guards because they are fun to watch.....but don't kid yourselves.....you are watching a different game than the 80s and 90s.

[guy]

It's more reasonable than you deranged MJ worshippers 'speculating'(like you always do about someone who hasn't played a relevant game in 13 friggin'years) what he COULD do against zone defenses.:rolleyes: You guys are SPECULATING at least this is a small sample of what he ACTUALLY did when facing zone defenses.:confusedshrug:

I find it odd that MJ was the ONLY Pro baller to not shoot 50% against ZONES. By the 'MJ is God' crowd he became a 'chucker' when facing zone defenses.

That is the only evidence we have. I know you losers would prefer to SPECULATE since you can concoct your own results.:no:

I make no apologies for not worshipping another man. He is just that a man who was once relevant ON the BBall court. The former ball hogging Shoe salesman; "White Republicans buy shoes too"( & best all around Sg ever) is now just a shoe salesman. Let him be.

Its actually completely UNREASONABLE to use that as any sort of evidence. So does that mean Charles Barkley would've shot over 70% playing in the zone? What's even worse is using that as evidence must also imply that the the zone defenses he faced in the 92 Olympics was harder for him to play against then all the NBA defenses at the time which he regularly shot +50% against on higher volumes. Is that what you're trying to say? Cause thats completely stupid.

Clearly the international game was nowhere near the NBA at the time, and from watching those Olympic games, its pretty clear that NO ONE on that team took it that seriously, including Jordan, which is probably why he didn't play as well. Using that as an indication of anything is just flat out stupid.

And by the way, Jordan shot 55% in the 84 Olympics against zones, when he had much worse teammates and was nowhere near as good as he was in 92. So like I said, what he did with the Dream Team, or in the Olympics in general mainly cause overseas competition was so weak, indicates absolutely nothing about how he would do in the zones, or any situation at all really.

[dutchguy]

Common misconception:
1. NBA teams (like celtics) play zone: NO
A zone is when you have a fixed position on the floor instead of a man to cover as assignment. Celtics and others play a lot of help, but NO ZONE. This help and rotation defense may in really short instances have a slightly similar effect as a zone, but it's totally different. In a Zone there cannot be rotations, because you have no MAN but a ZONE on the floor to defend, hence the name.

2. Against a zone -> shoot it: NO
well, at least not necessarily. Best way to beat a zone is FIND THE GAPS. Shooting can help though, but on an nba/professional talent level zones will not just let you shoot everything. That's not the idea of a zone, except for the gimmicky ones.

3. Illegal defense in the NBA meant strict man to man: NO
when above the foul line extended you were allowed to drift of your man. And there were more rules and exceptions. Most important is that in practice the difference between defense now and defense than wasn't all that big concerning man2man. The suns were the first team to really play a full zone for an extended period imo.

[Kellogs4toniee]

Let's get real here people. Kobe had a great series against the Suns. In my opinion, one of the greatest showcases of individual talent in a series. But what FreshPrince essentially did is to use that as support for his argument that Kobe was a better shooter than Jordan. This is his mentality, and the main reason why I've never loved a player (Kobe) so much, but on the other hand hated a good majority of his fans so much (You see this all the time in L.A, the ignorance is ridiculous).

This is the thinking the OP/TC had coming into this thread : The Suns used zone for most of the series, thus oh whoop di doo let's now try and see how Jordan would do against the Zone defense, because no matter what opposition I have to the claim that Kobe is a better shooter, I'll always have that great series Kobe had against the suns zone defense as my supporting angle in all arguments.

Where the f#@k were you during the Thunder series when Kobe was shooting low 40's? Oh yea, raising his finger injuries as the excuse for his poor shooting performance. WHY no freaking threads after Kobe went for 22 points in a 39 point blowout elimination game during the 2008 NBA finals?

All I have seen you do this entire thread is call out people as homers. The fact is you are the biggest homer here, regardless of the player involved. The fact is you have been spoon-fed numerous real articles, sources, quotes, and info to refute your argument by posters such as OldSchool and DonDadda, yet at the same time no where have you given any tangible evidence to support your claim. All I have seen you do is claim you could find quotes of people stating Kobe is a better mid-range shooter, but where the f#@#ck are they? You have stated no quotes, no articles.

And then theres posters such as TheLogo or some anonymous poster, or some March/April created poster, who suddenly appears and goes "Oh Man FreshPrince you are so right, good post, bravo bravo" here and there.

This thread makes me sick to the stomach. I give my full respect to those who have actually went back in the past and pulled up quotes / articles backing there claims. Even ones that go against Jordan, like Fatal's posts, are at least intellectual to a point where I can say "Ok, you stated your point in a concise matter. I agree to disagree." The TC/OP on the other hand... have you seen the number of typing / grammatical mistakes in your posts? How old are you? GTFO

http://www.johnnyikon.com/data/articles/2008/12/198/LOSER.jpg

[Lebron23]

Jordan would still be the best player in the game.

[sekachu]

1. Teams rarely play a true zone.

2. MJ faced suedo zones with quick doubles and at times triples. The Jordan rules were a defensive strategy with an entire team focused on limiting one guy.

3. Kobe faced man defense with help against Boston, NOT a zone and still struggled. Same with the Pistons.

4. MJ didn't have a jumper? Bizzarro world.

5. Zones are not hard to beat. I don't understand why people think they are. There's a reason why they are used on a very limited basis: it's only a temporary distraction. Most teams don't even coach against it, which is why it may seem so effective during the few times it's actually played.


agree that zones are not hard to beat, it depends how the team create space for their offensive player like MJ or kobe.

This is why the laker failed against the celtic zone in 2008 final. His team didn't good at creating space for kobe, standing around most of the times, no off ball movement when kobe got the ball, the worst is they stood beside kobe (hiliarious). waiting him to pass them the ball. Perhap this is why the celtic zone defense is so effective especially against the laker in 2008

[tylerconway]

Nothing ever really decreased Jordan's effectiveness. Zone would be the same.

[Showtime]

This is why the laker failed against the celtic zone in 2008 final.
Boston didn't use a zone.

[32jazz]

Its actually completely UNREASONABLE to use that as any sort of evidence. So does that mean Charles Barkley would've shot over 70% playing in the zone? What's even worse is using that as evidence must also imply that the the zone defenses he faced in the 92 Olympics was harder for him to play against then all the NBA defenses at the time which he regularly shot +50% against on higher volumes. Is that what you're trying to say? Cause thats completely stupid.

Clearly the international game was nowhere near the NBA at the time, and from watching those Olympic games, its pretty clear that NO ONE on that team took it that seriously, including Jordan, which is probably why he didn't play as well. Using that as an indication of anything is just flat out stupid.

And by the way, Jordan shot 55% in the 84 Olympics against zones, when he had much worse teammates and was nowhere near as good as he was in 92. So like I said, what he did with the Dream Team, or in the Olympics in general mainly cause overseas competition was so weak, indicates absolutely nothing about how he would do in the zones, or any situation at all really.

And by the way Jordan was still one of the worst shooters FG% wise in 1984 as well:confusedshrug: :

Alford (64%)
Robertson(65%)
Perkins(58%)
Wood(58%)
Kleine(62%)
Ewing(55%)
Mullins(56%)

M Jordan(54%)

Fleming (51%)
Konacak(44%)
Turner(20%)

Well at least your Shoe Salesman was more efficient than Jon Konacak:lol

Thank goodness for the disciplinarian Coach Bobby Knight who would not have tolerated MJ's 'chucking'(as you guys say here).:rolleyes:

No one made any attempts to say who is better than whom among those players. Just pointing out that others were more efficient(since you guys love to point that out) than MJ when playing against zones which can live with you taking jumpshots.

Excuse number 3,000 from the worshippers of the the great MJ(He just didn'y play hard in the Olympics'/'Didn't take it serious'/'Tired from the Nba finals',etc.............blah,blah,

What I'm saying is he played against inferior talent ,but they were able to level the field with him(by playin off him & by collapsing the paint) thus turning him into a jumpshooter. Sometimes your shot is on & sometimes it's not. Teams can live with that.

Stop wasting your time worshipping another man. Instead point out how UNREASONABLE it is for your fellow MJ worshippers to SPECULATE what MJ would have done against today's defenses.

No, go get yourself some P***y. It's more fun than worshipping an irrelevent 'has been' NBA player on the internet

[Soothsayer]

Im convinced it would decrease his effectiveness drastically. Jordan was a good jump shooter but not Great. And Zone will make you settle for 3's and long jumpers.

What do yall think?


Jordan faced true zone in college, shot 45% from the college 3pt line, as a 19 year old.

True zone does not exist in the nba due to the defensive 3 second rule.

Jordan, as a 40 year old, in THIS era of "zones", managed 20 ppg on 45% shooting, or....nearly Kobe's career average.

As well, don't be ignorant and think that Jordan did not face zones, traps, etc. as a player his entire career. He developed a 3PT game which Phil Jackson labeled "deadly".

His outside game within the arch was sublime and unstoppable.

In this "zone" era, Wade, LBJ, et al, can pretty much get to the rim unhindered at any point due to the perimeter defense rules and centers not being able to "camp out" in the lane.

Zone defense and no perimeter handchecking = Jordan running wild, no regard for humanity.

[Lebron23]

http://www.loudsportsshorts.com/basketball/jordan/michael_jordan.jpg

[Leviathon1121]

This thread is a joke. Chock full of Kobe homers and Jordan haters yelling at the Jordan fans for their "Speculation". When in fact, the entire premise of this thread is based 100% on speculation.

[guy]

And by the way Jordan was still one of the worst shooters FG% wise in 1984 as well:confusedshrug: :

Alford (64%)
Robertson(65%)
Perkins(58%)
Wood(58%)
Kleine(62%)
Ewing(55%)
Mullins(56%)

M Jordan(54%)

Fleming (51%)
Konacak(44%)
Turner(20%)

Well at least your Shoe Salesman was more efficient than Jon Konacak:lol

Thank goodness for the disciplinarian Coach Bobby Knight who would not have tolerated MJ's 'chucking'(as you guys say here).:rolleyes:

No one made any attempts to say who is better than whom among those players. Just pointing out that others were more efficient(since you guys love to point that out) than MJ when playing against zones which can live with you taking jumpshots.

Excuse number 3,000 from the worshippers of the the great MJ(He just didn'y play hard in the Olympics'/'Didn't take it serious'/'Tired from the Nba finals',etc.............blah,blah,

What I'm saying is he played against inferior talent ,but they were able to level the field with him(by playin off him & by collapsing the paint) thus turning him into a jumpshooter. Sometimes your shot is on & sometimes it's not. Teams can live with that.

Stop wasting your time worshipping another man. Instead point out how UNREASONABLE it is for your fellow MJ worshippers to SPECULATE what MJ would have done against today's defenses.

No, go get yourself some P***y. It's more fun than worshipping an irrelevent 'has been' NBA player on the internet

LOL. I'm not worshipping him. Just exposing your stupid logic that the dream team indicates anything about what Jordan would do in a zone. You can admit you were wrong and move one, instead of trying to insult people for talking about BASKETBALL in a BASKETBALL forum. It makes you look completely stupid for actually wasting your time doing that.

[oh the horror]

Ive read several posts in this thread claiming Jordan didnt have the range to shoot jumpers effectively throughout a team playing zone....?


They let the crazies out of the insane asylum or what?

[BlueandGold]

Jordan would still be the best player in the game.

sometimes I think you say things just to please other posters.

[catch24]

Utterly destroy it like D-Wade did in 2006 vs. Detroit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMFHUIwUtkc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XR3aXW1dNM8

[King Kong]

teams play zone defense?

[Alhazred]

No, it was directed at about half a dozen posts I saw while skimming the thread. What amuses me is they take whatever a current player, whether Kobe or Lebron is doing, and then add something like 5/2/2 on substantially greater effiency to it. If Lebron averages 34/9/10 on 52% next year MJ fans would say MJ would have put up 40/11/13 on 61%. :lol Do you see Magic fans saying he would put up 27/11/17 on 58% or Kareem fans saying he would put up 41/17/8/7 on 71% today?

I see Wilt fans like Jlauber claiming that he would be dropping 40/20 along with 6 blocks per game in this era all the time. MJ fans aren't the only ones who use hyperbole, you should clearly know that by now.


Great point. Jordan shot the worst but still led the team in FGA--by a large margin. As Doug Collins once privately said about him when he coached him, "he won't let go of the ball." This is why I :roll: when people talk of hypothetical teams in which Jordan is paired with another 28-30 ppg scorer. They wouldn't be able to coexist.

Is that why Jordan was second in total assists on the 1992 Dream Team? :oldlol:

[Soothsayer]

I see Wilt fans like Jlauber claiming that he would be dropping 40/20 along with 6 blocks per game in this era all the time. MJ fans aren't the only ones who use hyperbole, you should clearly know that by now.



Is that why Jordan was second in total assists on the 1992 Dream Team? :oldlol:


LMAO! :roll:

EXACTLY!

I can play that game too. Example: Jordan only averaged 14.9 ppg on the 92 dream team where other teams played zone.

Wow! I guess that means Jordan could only average 15 ppg against a zone defense!

Pure lunacy. lol.

Jordan was the only player to start all 8 games, he was 2nd in assists, first in steals by a MILE, and jacked up many tough shots in blowout games bc he didn't give a crap about his olympic FG% in a 50 point blowout.

[Roundball_Rock]

jlauber is one guy. In this thread half a dozen MJ fans have posted such numbers. You always see this whenever MJ is compared to a modern player. That player's stats are taken and then magically increased 10-20% across the board. Maybe he would produce X% more than, say, Lebron if he played today but what amuses me is the certainty. Lebron put up 30/8/9 on excellent efficiency despite taking a lot of 3's. Yet MJ would be a lock to put up the numbers that have been posted in this thread?


Is that why Jordan was second in total assists on the 1992 Dream Team?

Who was first? It was the guy Phil Jackson gave the role of being the primary playmaker/ballhandler. There is a reason Jackson did not make Jordan the primary playmaker/ballhandler in addition to the primary scorer a la Lebron or Wade today...

[Soothsayer]

jlauber is one guy. In this thread half a dozen MJ fans have posted such numbers. You always see this whenever MJ is compared to a modern player. That player's stats are taken and then magically increased 10-20% across the board. Maybe he would produce X% more than, say, Lebron if he played today but what amuses me is the certainty. Lebron put up 30/8/9 on excellent efficiency despite taking a lot of 3's. Yet MJ would be a lock to put up the numbers that have been posted in this thread?



Who was first? It was the guy Phil Jackson gave the role of being the primary playmaker/ballhandler. There is a reason Jackson did not make Jordan the primary playmaker/ballhandler in addition to the primary scorer a la Lebron or Wade today...


Jordan's FG% in the Olympics is irrelevant. Those were like All star games.

Jordan's all star FG% is .472, lower than it is for him in the finals.

Why? Because he was taking tough shots, and trying to put on a show.

Think he may have been doing the same thing in 40-50 pt blowout Olympic games? :lol

:rockon:

[AirJordan23]

http://doubledribble.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/jordan-shows-6-fingers-to-utah.jpg

[Alhazred]

jlauber is one guy.

Doesn't matter how many people it is, you said that other fans never make up inflated stats for past players. I proved you wrong.


In this thread half a dozen MJ fans have posted such numbers. You always see this whenever MJ is compared to a modern player. That player's stats are taken and then magically increased 10-20% across the board. Maybe he would produce X% more than, say, Lebron if he played today but what amuses me is the certainty. Lebron put up 30/8/9 on excellent efficiency despite taking a lot of 3's. Yet MJ would be a lock to put up the numbers that have been posted in this thread?

I see a few people here posting unreasonable numbers like 40+ points per game, but then most reasonable MJ fans like Oldschool estimate Jordan's scoring average in today's game to be at around 30-35 points per game while averaging at least 6 rebounds and six assists per game. That's not very outrageous, imo.


Who was first? It was the guy Phil Jackson gave the role of being the primary playmaker/ballhandler. There is a reason Jackson did not make Jordan the primary playmaker/ballhandler in addition to the primary scorer a la Lebron or Wade today...

:oldlol: You're really determined to prove he was a complete ballhog, aren't you? Who averaged 11 assists against LA in 1991? I'll give you a hint, it wasn't Scottie.

[Soothsayer]

Doesn't matter how many people it is, you said that other fans never make up inflated stats for past players. I proved you wrong.



I see a few people here posting unreasonable numbers like 40+ points per game, but then most reasonable MJ fans like Oldschool estimate Jordan's scoring average in today's game to be at around 30-35 points per game while averaging at least 6 rebounds and six assists per game. That's not very outrageous, imo.



:oldlol: You're really determined to prove he was a complete ballhog, aren't you? Who averaged 11 assists against LA in 1991? I'll give you a hint, it wasn't Scottie.

:applause:

Which is STILL an nba record for highest APG in the finals by a non-PG. That MJ...what a ballhog! ;)

[TheLogo]

He would do ok with the zone but to say he would put godly numbers like Kobe is just wrong.

[Soothsayer]

He would do ok with the zone but to say he would put godly numbers like Kobe is just wrong.

True, considering his athletic superiority than Kobe, and his skill superiority to Lebron, Jordan would clearly put up superior stats to Kobe in this era.

Good point.

[JM720]

This just In:

Phil said that Boston "basically plays a zone" on D. Lakers certainly familiar with what they do.

http://twitter.com/LakersReporter

just throwing this In there for for all the stans on both sides saying Boston does or doesn't :oldlol:

[Soothsayer]

This just In:

Phil said that Boston "basically plays a zone" on D. Lakers certainly familiar with what they do.

http://twitter.com/LakersReporter

just throwing this In there for for all the stans on both sides saying Boston does or doesn't :oldlol:


Right...so Boston doesn't play a zone, but "basically" plays a zone. Sounds like most good defensive teams from the 80s and 90s.

:cheers:

[OldSchoolBBall]

Kobe groupies and Jordan haters out in full force. These cats are out of control. :oldlol:

I still haven't heard a response to the below, which was the premise of the thread (Kobe supposedly being a significantly better midrange shooter than Jordan):


You'll literally almost never see Kobe take and make the kinds of midrange shots MJ made regularly on quick catch-and-shoots. You'll never see him being nearly as consistent as MJ on open looks (did MJ ever miss an open baseline 16-18 footer? I'm not sure). You'll rarely see him coming down in transition and opting to take a 13-17 footer instead of taking it in even when he has the opening to. You (comparatively) rarely see him coming off a screen with a live dribble and just firing. He does all these things far less frequently and not as well as MJ, yet I'm supposed to believe that he not only has a better midrange shot, but has a SUBSTANTIALLY better midrange shot, to the point where it makes a difference in game situations? Sorry, but no.

[Leviathon1121]

He would do ok with the zone but to say he would put godly numbers like Kobe is just wrong.

Here you go Roundball, said in this very thread you hate speculation. Well, here is a 100% pure speculative post with no substance whatsoever, care to comment?

Wait, never mind, hes not a Jordan fan, ignore away.

[jstern]

Jordan was one of the greatest players of all time and was very good in many aspect of the game. One can debate that he is as complete as Kobe, but to say he had great range is plain STUPID.

Yes, he was great but his range was very weak.
Jordan's range wasn't weak, Jordan basically became a jump shooter as he got older. How old are you, did you watch Jordan play? They even said that his only weakness when he came into the league was his 3 point shooter, but that he took his weakness and ended up excelling in it.

[sayitaintso]

shoulda coulda woulda.

jordan was quoted as saying he wouldnt have let kobe drop 81 on his team.

well, kobe dropped 46 in a half on his ass. his teams ass. he didnt do shit abt it.

wtf MJ?

Has MJ ever lost by 39 in an elimination game in the NBA finals? Has MJ ever took a day off in a game 7 of a NBA playoffs ever? Has MJ ever asked for a trade.

[Glide2keva]

Jordan's range wasn't weak, Jordan basically became a jump shooter as he got older. How old are you, did you watch Jordan play? They even said that his only weakness when he came into the league was his 3 point shooter, but that he took his weakness and ended up excelling in it.
The logo and people like him never saw Jordan play. They just say things like this to fool the other uninformed posters into believing that Jordan did nothing but brick his jumpers.

Jordan's mid-range, fade-away etc. was deadly. People talk about his thre point shooting, but do so without context. The three pointer was there but teams as a whole didn't take many threes. Look at the 91 finals, the bulls took roughly 20+ threes for the ENTIRE SERIES. The Orlando Magic will take that in a half and sometimes a quarter.

The three didn't become more a part of teams arsenals until it was moved up and then moved back. Teams didn't just hoist up threes like that then. The magic took what 600 threes this season?

The lakers as a whole in the 80's would take that many in about 5 or 6 seasons. Different time.

In 92 he showed how deadly hecan be from three by going 6-10 in game 1 of the finals.

[Roundball_Rock]

Here you go Roundball, said in this very thread you hate speculation.

Really? Where? That would be odd since I like historical speculation. What I was talking about, and I don't expect a gimmick/sock to grasp this, is the knee-jerk "Jordan=10-20% better in every scenario" response. Lebron could average 33/9/10 on 53% next season and MJ fans would be saying Jordan would have posted 37/11/13 on 59%. :roll:


Jordan's mid-range, fade-away etc. was deadly. People talk about his thre point shooting, but do so without context.

Yeah, if the 3 was a bigger part of the game back then MJ would have practiced it more and probably wound up proficient at it. Still, it is quite ironic to see context invoked by a MJ fan regarding 3's for that is always ignored when diminishing current players by comparing their raw FG % to MJ's even though players today take several 3's a game while Jordan in his best FG % years rarely took 3's. Of course, if an adjustment was made for the increase in 3's/shooting 33% on 3's=50% on 2's then MJ's muched hyped efficiency advantage would vanish (look at points per shot comparisons) so it isn't surprising the only time you hear that the 3 was not a big part of 80's/early 90's basketball is when people point out that MJ was a career 28% shooter from the 3 point line, aside for the brief period when the line was shortened.

[jstern]

The logo and people like him never saw Jordan play. They just say things like this to fool the other uninformed posters into believing that Jordan did nothing but brick his jumpers.

Jordan's mid-range, fade-away etc. was deadly. People talk about his thre point shooting, but do so without context. The three pointer was there but teams as a whole didn't take many threes. Look at the 91 finals, the bulls took roughly 20+ threes for the ENTIRE SERIES. The Orlando Magic will take that in a half and sometimes a quarter.

The three didn't become more a part of teams arsenals until it was moved up and then moved back. Teams didn't just hoist up threes like that then. The magic took what 600 threes this season?

The lakers as a whole in the 80's would take that many in about 5 or 6 seasons. Different time.

In 92 he showed how deadly hecan be from three by going 6-10 in game 1 of the finals.

The rule changes actually made it easier for players to shoot 3, more space to shoot. Heck I was watching a video from the 80s and the pg basically had to post up from behind the 3 point line the defense was so tight. As for Jordan and the 3, there's a video on youtube from after he hit those 6 3 pointers in which he talks about how he doesn't want to excel in 3s because player who do so start to settle for 3s which would take away from his game. I'll see if I find the video.

[jstern]

The rule changes actually made it easier for players to shoot 3, more space to shoot. Heck I was watching a video from the 80s and the pg basically had to post up from behind the 3 point line the defense was so tight. As for Jordan and the 3, there's a video on youtube from after he hit those 6 3 pointers in which he talks about how he doesn't want to excel in 3s because player who do so start to settle for 3s which would take away from his game. I'll see if I find the video.

Finally found, took me a while but here's Jordan talking about the 3 point shot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXkwuTRImqs

[ukplayer4]

mj was also the best mid range jump shooter in the league, he didnt take alot of threes simply because he was able to get to better spots on the floor(basket,paint or mid range) whenever he wanted. which is part of the reason jordans shooting %'s were so much beter than kobes.

[thesnowman22]

MJ would have no problem regardless of the defense. This year has again emphasized that noone will ever be MJ.

[Amil23]

MJ would have no problem regardless of the defense. This year has again emphasized that noone will ever be MJ.
why should anyone want to be him..he was great but there can be greater....why should any one swagger jack?

[sekachu]

[QUiOTE=Showtime]Boston didn't use a zone.[/QUOTE]


yes, not a real zone that kobe homers claimed to be.

I just wanted to point out that the kobe homers like to use the zone excuses to say how hard for kobe to against it and act like the zone is unbeatable. THe most hiliarious part is that they believe the zone could stopped MJ and mislead the people that he never faced so-called zone which he actually did.

[sekachu]

Boston didn't use a zone.


yes, not a real zone that kobe homers claimed to be.

I just wanted to point out that the kobe homers like to use the zone excuses to say how hard for kobe to against it and act like the zone is unbeatable. THe most hiliarious part is that they believe the zone could stopped MJ and mislead the people that he never faced so-called zone which he actually did.

[SFMF]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tXwAhMVb1Y&feature=player_embedded

edit: if you're interested, http://bruceblitz.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=nbabasketballmessageboard&thread=59&page=1

but, you might have register for that..

[Glide2keva]

yes, not a real zone that kobe homers claimed to be.

I just wanted to point out that the kobe homers like to use the zone excuses to say how hard for kobe to against it and act like the zone is unbeatable. THe most hiliarious part is that they believe the zone could stopped MJ and mislead the people that he never faced so-called zone which he actually did.
Thank you. He did play three years in college where they played a lot of zone defenses and he only led the nation in scoring while winning player of the year two of those three seasons.

As a matter of fact, his title winning shot was against georgetown while they were in a 2-3 zone.

So there goes that.

It would really benefit people to actually watch games instead of
googling stats. Stats don't tell the whole story.

[Replay32]

Anybody who knows anything about ball knows that MJ would have no problem against a zone. MJ was very fundamentally sound and that sometimes get unnoticed because of his ability to take over games. But MJ knew how to play the game. He was beautiful to watch. He had the ability to adjust his offensive game to what the defense was doing. He came off screens and moved better without the ball compared to kobe. The past 3 years kobe has gotten a lot better moving without the ball, but he still doesn't do it as consistenly as MJ did. MJ's jumper and fadaway was also deadly.


I don't understand the question the OP has raised, being that Kobe is just a carbon copy of MJ. He patterned his entire game after Jordan. Kobe has admitted this. He also has been blessed to play in the same system and for the same coach. Jordan was just a better version of what we are witnessing now from kobe. Cats act like what Kobe did to the Suns is something new. Anybody who saw MJ's entire career knows what's up. You think MJ couldn't shoot over steve nash and barbosa being at the top of a zone? MJ at 35 was abusing a younger grant hill. Come on fellas!

I wish some of you would just let kobe be kobe. I know it's hard when kobe is out there acting like MJ (sticking his tongue out and shooting fadaways over 2 ppl), but let's try to let kobe be kobe for once.

[djsupreme33]

Seriously though, I think Jordan is an intelligent enough player to shred any defense. His footwork is flawless and his athleticism is incredible. He's a master of the midrange game. Although if he was covered he'd probably dominate in another way..such as passing and getting his teammates open looks, offensive rebounds, remember that he was an amazing low post player as well. Remember man to man when played right is similar to a zone

[32jazz]

LOL. I'm not worshipping him. Just exposing your stupid logic that the dream team indicates anything about what Jordan would do in a zone. You can admit you were wrong and move one, instead of trying to insult people for talking about BASKETBALL in a BASKETBALL forum. It makes you look completely stupid for actually wasting your time doing that.

Did I not suggest you go out & get some nookie & stop worrying/speculating about a man who hasn't played a relevant game in 13 years?

No what is silly is SPECULATING about your 'god'(MJ) & then you idiots precede to vigorously/angrily defend your wild SPECULATIONS(when challenged) as if it they were FACT. :confusedshrug:
The only facts are that MJ rarely played 'zones' or in an era with no illegal defenses(where shading/spying & soft doubles/triples teams are allowed) other than the olympics & as usual excuses are made for his play against zones(Everyone but MJ cared about how they looked on a world stage I guess?:rolleyes: )

MAgic is my favorite player of all time ,but I have no need nor desire to foolishly speculate about what he could POSSIBLY do & then get pissy when someone mocks me for it. MAgic is done playing. I got over it 20 years ago.
You MJ worshippers need to as well.

[Leviathon1121]

Did I not suggest you go out & get some nookie & stop worrying/speculating about a man who hasn't played a relevant game in 13 years?

No what is silly is SPECULATING about your 'god'(MJ) & then you idiots precede to vigorously/angrily defend your wild SPECULATIONS(when challenged) as if it they were FACT. :confusedshrug:
The only facts are that MJ rarely played 'zones' or in an era with no illegal defenses(where shading/spying & soft doubles/triples teams are allowed) other than the olympics & as usual excuses are made for his play against zones(Everyone but MJ cared about how they looked on a world stage I guess?:rolleyes: )

MAgic is my favorite player of all time ,but I have no need nor desire to foolishly speculate about what he could POSSIBLY do & then get pissy when someone mocks me for it. MAgic is done playing. I got over it 20 years ago.
You MJ worshippers need to as well.

You are one very angry person.

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

Did I not suggest you go out & get some nookie & stop worrying/speculating about a man who hasn't played a relevant game in 13 years?

No what is silly is SPECULATING about your 'god'(MJ) & then you idiots precede to vigorously/angrily defend your wild SPECULATIONS(when challenged) as if it they were FACT. :confusedshrug:
The only facts are that MJ rarely played 'zones' or in an era with no illegal defenses(where shading/spying & soft doubles/triples teams are allowed) other than the olympics & as usual excuses are made for his play against zones(Everyone but MJ cared about how they looked on a world stage I guess?:rolleyes: )

MAgic is my favorite player of all time ,but I have no need nor desire to foolishly speculate about what he could POSSIBLY do & then get pissy when someone mocks me for it. MAgic is done playing. I got over it 20 years ago.
You MJ worshippers need to as well.

U mad

[guy]

Did I not suggest you go out & get some nookie & stop worrying/speculating about a man who hasn't played a relevant game in 13 years?

No what is silly is SPECULATING about your 'god'(MJ) & then you idiots precede to vigorously/angrily defend your wild SPECULATIONS(when challenged) as if it they were FACT. :confusedshrug:
The only facts are that MJ rarely played 'zones' or in an era with no illegal defenses(where shading/spying & soft doubles/triples teams are allowed) other than the olympics & as usual excuses are made for his play against zones(Everyone but MJ cared about how they looked on a world stage I guess?:rolleyes: )

MAgic is my favorite player of all time ,but I have no need nor desire to foolishly speculate about what he could POSSIBLY do & then get pissy when someone mocks me for it. MAgic is done playing. I got over it 20 years ago.
You MJ worshippers need to as well.

First of all, where did I speculate about what Jordan would do in a zone? I didn't. I said, your logic and your evidence means nothing. LOL @ the thought that anyone took it that seriously, I don't care if it was the "world stage". So I guess if they had zones back then, Jordan would've been at best the 11th best player in the league, behind all of his Dream Team teammates. I guess Jordan in a zone, when he was in his prime, would've been worse then Magic who had been retired for over a year, and Bird who's back was destroyed and was about to retire.

Seriously, no one is getting pissy except for you it seems. You're telling me I need to get p*ssy when YOU are the one wasting your time arguing with random people on the internet on a speculation topic that you personally think is stupid and getting mad about the attention some basketball player is getting, who like you said hasn't been relevant in 13 years? Going on a basketball forum to tell people they are stupid for discussing basketball is about as stupid as going to an actual basketball game and telling everyone there stupid for watching this crap. You don't like the topic, don't be a part of it. Instead of wasting time on it, GO GET SOME P*SSY, instead of being bitter about some bald dude you've never met.

[f0und]

wade has similar aggressive to the basket/midrange kind of game. he's one of 3 players you can make an argument for the top spot. jordan was a better version of wade, and if he was in today's league, there would be jordan..........then there would be bron/wade/kobe.

[juju151111]

First of all, where did I speculate about what Jordan would do in a zone? I didn't. I said, your logic and your evidence means nothing. LOL @ the thought that anyone took it that seriously, I don't care if it was the "world stage". So I guess if they had zones back then, Jordan would've been at best the 11th best player in the league, behind all of his Dream Team teammates. I guess Jordan in a zone, when he was in his prime, would've been worse then Magic who had been retired for over a year, and Bird who's back was destroyed and was about to retire.

Seriously, no one is getting pissy except for you it seems. You're telling me I need to get p*ssy when YOU are the one wasting your time arguing with random people on the internet on a speculation topic that you personally think is stupid and getting mad about the attention some basketball player is getting, who like you said hasn't been relevant in 13 years? Going on a basketball forum to tell people they are stupid for discussing basketball is about as stupid as going to an actual basketball game and telling everyone there stupid for watching this crap. You don't like the topic, don't be a part of it. Instead of wasting time on it, GO GET SOME P*SSY, instead of being bitter about some bald dude you've never met.
He just mad that he got proven wrong. according to his logic Wade>>>Kobe at 3s because in the olympics he did better. Lets not take into account that MJ/KB were coming off title runs and MJ was coming off two. He was playing all year long. I posted vids on wat the knicks did to MJ and forced him into jumpers, but yet he was still killing them.

[Point Blank]

Yeah so did Michael Beasley :rolleyes:
:oldlol:

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

33/6/6 54%

[G.O.A.T.]

33/6/6 54%

sweet

[nbacardDOTnet]

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/VS/z%20Crazy%20Stat%20n%20Record/Michael%20Jordan/2001.jpg

[Calabis]

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/VS/z%20Crazy%20Stat%20n%20Record/Michael%20Jordan/2001.jpg

All this with no athleticism, bad knees and no burst......lmao

19 straight second quarter points on Ron Artest(generations best perimeter defender) finished with 29

Yeah he would really struggle in a less punishing, perimeter player friendly league.....these Kobehomers are about retarded

Also if Jordan didn't play back in the day, who the **** would Kobe be???? He copied Jordans game and became a less efficient/less athletic version.

[Lodi Dodi]

Threads like these are a litmus test to determine who are the dumb asses.

[Big#50]

Dean Smith said Jordan wasn't as effective in college because of the zone. He always knew he'd be a sick NBA player because of the man to man D. College Jordan wasn't prime Jordan though. I guess we woul never know. But something tells me he'd do great. He's Michael Jordan.

[Soundwave]

wade has similar aggressive to the basket/midrange kind of game. he's one of 3 players you can make an argument for the top spot. jordan was a better version of wade, and if he was in today's league, there would be jordan..........then there would be bron/wade/kobe.

Yup pretty much.

Wade plays more or the less the same game as MJ without as good of a post game.

Besides if there was zone D, there was nothing fundamentally wrong with MJ's shot. He could just spend a summer increasing the range if need be ... hell it'd be easier on the knees to score that way.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Dean Smith said Jordan wasn't as effective in college because of the zone. He always knew he'd be a sick NBA player because of the man to man D. College Jordan wasn't prime Jordan though. I guess we woul never know. But something tells me he'd do great. He's Michael Jordan.
He didn't say that ... Dean Smith was the only person to "hold MJ below 20 ppg" because of the four corners offense, and the collegiate 35 second shot clock. Had nothing to do with zone at all.

[New York Knicks]

All this with no athleticism, bad knees and no burst......lmao

19 straight second quarter points on Ron Artest(generations best perimeter defender) finished with 29

Yeah he would really struggle in a less punishing, perimeter player friendly league.....these Kobehomers are about retarded

Also if Jordan didn't play back in the day, who the **** would Kobe be???? He copied Jordans game and became a less efficient/less athletic version.
Exactly. Jordan did this on skill alone. He was living on the perimeter those 2 seasons.

[SinJackal]

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/VS/z%20Crazy%20Stat%20n%20Record/Michael%20Jordan/2001.jpg

:lol At nearly 40 after 4 years of rust. >_>

/thread

[Desperado]

Also if Jordan didn't play back in the day, who the **** would Kobe be?

It's very obvious that Kobe "patterned" his game after Jordan.

I imagine though, if not for Jordan, Kobe would still be an NBA player, but who knows how different his game would be if he hadn't patterned it after Mike?

[Bring-Your-Js]

It's very obvious that Kobe "patterned" his game after Jordan.

I imagine though, if not for Jordan, Kobe would still be an NBA player, but who knows how different his game would be if he hadn't patterned it after Mike?

Should be the ultimate compliment. It isn't as simple as just patterning his game after him. it's quite ****ing difficult to do.

[Glide2keva]

Jordan was a two time player if the year and led the nation in scoring including hitting the game winner and title winning shot against Georgetown whe they were playing zone defense.

So he did very well against the zone. Plus team often employed versions of zone defense in the league before it became legal.

[JustinJDW]

Why is zone defense illegal again? Is it because it actually works and it forces the opposing team to shoot jumpshots and the game might actually turn defensive minded? Lord forbid.

[keep-itreal]

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/VS/z%20Crazy%20Stat%20n%20Record/Michael%20Jordan/2001.jpg

:eek: :bowdown:

jesus christ...

[HisJoeness]

how would you FARE in a 6th grade english test? probably not well.

:oldlol: