Has Gasol surpassed Dirk as the greatest european player?

[beermonsteroo]

Obviously when we are talking about individual career stats and long term NBA succes Dirk has better numbers, but that isn't exactly the questions here.
When talking about greatness you have do take more aspects into account, especially team succes.
Gasol has already won a ring and is in the finals again. And remember he was a major factor why the Lakers are back on top again. Before Gasol arrived they hardly made the playoffs at all.
He led his national team to World and European championchips as well as an olympic silver medal.
So overall I would say from an european perspective Gasol has a legit shot to be considered greater then Dirk at this stage of his career. For europeans winning a world championchip counts a lot more then leading a team to the conference finals for example.
So what about the american perspective?

[JtotheIzzo]

most accomplished yes, but Dirk is still a 1a, the best Pau has been is a 2.

[JerrySteakhouse]

Dirk > Gasol

Not even close.

[tommy3]

http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt208/erdooley/fail_thread2.jpg

[Yung D-Will]

Dirk>Yao>Gasol


Mass Claim

[beermonsteroo]

Dirk>Yao>Gasol


Mass Claim

So Yao is european?:lol :lol :lol :lol

[Yung D-Will]

So Yao is european?:lol :lol :lol :lol

Lmao Mass pwnt :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[creepingdeath]

Both from European and from NBA perspective, Dirk is just the greater player, by far.

Talking about international competitions like the World Cup, you must not forget to take into consideration that the German national team has always been a very low tier, sometimes mediocre team at best. Still, with that kind of team, Nowitzki managed to have major success. Pau's achievements on that level are very, very good, too, but the Spanish team is just lightyears better than the German, so his personal share in their success is not as big as Dirk's.

And if we're talking about NBA success, it's not even close.

[Collie]

It's like McHale vs Karl Malone. Sure McHale has the rings, but nobody in their right mind will put him higher than the Mailman.

[GoldMedallist]

It's like McHale vs Karl Malone. Sure McHale has the rings, but nobody in their right mind will put him higher than the Mailman.

Dirk is not THAT superior.

And you musn't have to compare Dirk and Pau, they play different positions.

Dirk is much better scorer than Gasol. Pau is much better post player than Nowitzki.

[creepingdeath]

Dirk is much better scorer than Gasol. Pau is much better post player than Nowitzki.
:wtf: No... just, no...

[Foster5k]

Dirk is the king of choke. I'll take Gasol any day over Dirk.

[Batz]

I would take Pau over him anyday...

[JerrySteakhouse]

I bet you guys wont be saying that if Dirk and Gasol switched places.

[Miller Time]

ok, you guys saying you would much rather have Gasol than Dirk on your team are obviously retarded. I mean I love Gasol as much as the next guy. I loved Gasol before he played for the Lakers, when I bet many of you had never even seen him play. Gasol is a great skilled player but Dirk is so much better. If you can't see that then please stop posting on this forum.

[Bigsmoke]

Dirk is the king of choke. I'll take Gasol any day over Dirk.

Gasol chokes a lot too though but he has Kobe to finish out games for him.

Dirk is still way better.

[Batz]

Would still take Gasol.

[Mechanixxxx]

I bet you guys wont be saying that if Dirk and Gasol switched places.

Dirk wouldn't be that effective within the parameters of the triangle offense, he doesn't post-up enough.

And as far as the TS question, I think Pau is the more accomplished and better player as far as INTERNATIONAL level. Dirk has the better overall stats and everything, but Gasol has accomplished more when it comes to team accomplishments.Some may say that Gasol has Kobe, and even though thats true and all its not like Kobe doesn't need Gasol, cause at the end of the day, championships are awarded to to a team not an individual.

So yeah....Dirk has the stats and Gasol has the team success. So for now, I'll give the edge to Dirk but when its all said and done, I think Gasol will surpass him.

[flintstone]

Not even close...Dirk by a mile. Dirk is a star on any team, Gasol needs a star to back up....like Kobe.

[INDI]

I am a lakers fan and I say that you gotta be out of your mind if you think that pau is a better player than dirk. If dirk and pau switched places it would make us an even more lethal team. As much as dirk chokes he also comes up big in games as well, too whom much is given much is required and dirk has to take the big shots so there's more room for error, where in pau's case he was the man on a mediocre team so there wasn't many opportunites to choke (most games was lost early in the game) and on the lakers he is a number 2 option and is barely called on to put the game on his back.

Bottom line is if there was talk in the offseason of a dirk and pau swap, im pretty sure alot of the people that chose pau would have an epiphany on how dirk was better all along

[cavsfanatic]

This shows the youth of ish. Gasol couldn't win a playoff game before joining la. I'd take dirk 200 times over gasol. Dirk hit more gw's this season than pau has his whole career

[ErhnamDjinn]

This shows the youth of ish. Gasol couldn't win a playoff game before joining la. I'd take dirk 200 times over gasol. Dirk hit more gw's this season than pau has his whole career
^^^^This rofl like people forget when Pau was the centerpiece of a team he couldnt push passed the 1st round. Dirk on the other hand brought his team to the Finals. Pau success is partially due to Kobe also, Pau is a a great addition to a team while Dirk is the franchise player.

[Collie]

Kobe + Dirk = absolute nightmare. People saying Dirk wouldn't thrive in the triangle forget how good a scorer Dirk is. He can score in a multitude of ways, post-up, mid range, threes, drives, you name it.

[f0und]

id take ginobli over both. though he's not technically european, thats where he made his name.

[hawksdogsbraves]

If anyone says Pau is anywhere near Dirk then they are just quite simply wrong. Pau is a good second option, Dirk is a good first option. Make them switch teams and LA sweeps their way through the playoffs, while Dallas doesn't make the playoffs.

[beermonsteroo]

I am a lakers fan and I say that you gotta be out of your mind if you think that pau is a better player than dirk. If dirk and pau switched places it would make us an even more lethal team. As much as dirk chokes he also comes up big in games as well, too whom much is given much is required and dirk has to take the big shots so there's more room for error, where in pau's case he was the man on a mediocre team so there wasn't many opportunites to choke (most games was lost early in the game) and on the lakers he is a number 2 option and is barely called on to put the game on his back.

Bottom line is if there was talk in the offseason of a dirk and pau swap, im pretty sure alot of the people that chose pau would have an epiphany on how dirk was better all along

Notice i said greater not better. There's a difference there.

[creepingdeath]

id take ginobli over both. though he's not technically european, thats where he made his name.
Okay, now it's getting ridiculous.

[SsKSpurs21]

Okay, now it's getting ridiculous.

how is it ridiculous? Manu has accomplished more than both of these guys on an international level. but he is not european, he is south american.

Awards

* Italian League All-Star: 1999, 2000, 2001
* Italian League Most Improved Player: 2000, 2001, 2002
* Euroleague Final Four Most Valuable Player: 2001
* FIBA Americas Championship Most Valuable Player: 2001
* Italian Cup Most Valuable Player: 2002
* All-Tournament Team, FIBA World Championship: 2002, 2006
* Ideal Olympics Team: 2004
* Olimpia de Oro: 2003, 2004 (shared with Carlos T

[Lakerlove420]

I wouldn't make the trade.

think what you want about that.
I can honestly say that I would keep Pau.
I love how Pau has helped the Lakers

wait . . that makes me a young noob homer right?

[daprunus]

^^^^This rofl like people forget when Pau was the centerpiece of a team he couldnt push passed the 1st round. Dirk on the other hand brought his team to the Finals. .

Are you comparing the roster of the Grizzlies and the Mavs when Pau was in Memphis?

[hawkfan]

most accomplished yes, but Dirk is still a 1a, the best Pau has been is a 2.

Plus 1.

Gasol is, unquestionably, the best European player ever in terms of playoff performances.

Gasol has far, far outplayed Dirk in the playoffs over his career.

But in the regular season, Dirk is better than Gasol.

[maxwellcu]

Dirk is way, way, WAY better. Gasol was a first option for the first part of his NBA career and his teams pretty much sucked.

[fos]

Dirk is the G.O.A.T. European basketball player. An NBA Superstar and franchise player who has won 50+ games for what 10 years in a row and has a finals appearance as the guy. He's also scored 50 points in a playoff game. Pau Gasol is a nice second banana, he's a utility guy, he's a solid defender, excellent rebounder and fantastic passer for a big. Very nice player. But Dirk Nowitzki he ain't.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_gZ18TgcVF2w/StzDGrmKS6I/AAAAAAAAGR8/FCZm-km7tps/s400/Dirk+hair.jpg

[Point Blank]

Dirk > Gasol

/thread.

[Drinker]

but the Spanish team is just lightyears better than the German, so his personal share in their success is not as big as Dirk's.



Pardon? that's really a weird statment

[Drinker]

[QUOTE=SsKSpurs21]how is it ridiculous? Manu has accomplished more than both of these guys on an international level. but he is not european, he is south american.

Awards

* Italian League All-Star: 1999, 2000, 2001
* Italian League Most Improved Player: 2000, 2001, 2002
* Euroleague Final Four Most Valuable Player: 2001
* FIBA Americas Championship Most Valuable Player: 2001
* Italian Cup Most Valuable Player: 2002
* All-Tournament Team, FIBA World Championship: 2002, 2006
* Ideal Olympics Team: 2004
* Olimpia de Oro: 2003, 2004 (shared with Carlos T

[jjayfive]

dirk is a better scorer.. but i would take a true back to the basket player over a jump shooting 7 footer any day.. pau has first options skills with second option mentality.. pau had never been on a good team until the lakers...

[R.I.P.]

Plus 1.

Gasol is, unquestionably, the best European player ever in terms of playoff performances.

Gasol has far, far outplayed Dirk in the playoffs over his career.

But in the regular season, Dirk is better than Gasol.

:roll: :hammerhead:

Dirk is a better player in every situation, NBA or FIBA rules; play-off or pick up game. Gasol has been more successful, because he plays on a great national team and he has a great team in LA with the best player and coach in the league.

[TROLL_HUNTER]

Both Gasol and Dirk are equally great. If Dirk would have been that better than Gasol he would have taken Germany to the finals in the international forum and thats not happened. Likewise Gasol didnt manage to get past first round in Memphis cos his team sucked as much as Dirk's Germany sucks too.

As for personal accolades, Gasol is key to the Lakers success and hence, nba ring (or rings if they win again) so the theoretical advantage of Dirk is nowhere to be seen. Gasol is the perfect key for the Lakers whereas Dirk would overlap Kobe and viceversa. If you guys cannot see that it just shows how blind you are, sorry to say.

But aside the Dirk - Gasol debate, which may fall to either side cos they are at similar level, the thread itself starts from a massive wrong standpoint: Neither of them are the best european ever. that honor goes to the great Arvydas Sabonis, the most skilled Center in the history (usa included) whose career was impacted by injuries and who is in his prime would have eaten both Gasol and Dirk for breakfast

[T_Element]

Ok this is getting ridiculous. Lets look at this way: Gasol, would never, under any circumstances, win an mvp. Or even come in top 5 voting. If that isn't a measure of how much better/greater Dirk is than I don't know what is.

[gts]

all these people saying dirk over pau because pau never led his team in the playoffs...

what exactly have the mavs done under dirks leadership besides be the team leader during three of the biggest playoff choke jobs the nba has seen?

i get some folks think dirk is a better player and i even agree on some level depending on team needs, but to point out dirks playoff success as a franchise player as your defining factor is a joke, the guy has not led a team to squat when it comes down to it

it's real simple your team either needs a back to the basket post up 7 footer who can pass well is inteligent and has a solid mid range game or you need a 7 foot perimiter based player who's deadly from the outside works the mid range incredibly well, has decent handles and also has a high bball iq

neither one of these 7 footers is going to become your teams enforcer but they are both skilled players with different skill sets..

pau never won without kobe?
correct! but he has won, and is on his way to begin his 3rd trip to the finals in a row as the anchor man in the paint of the defending champs...

[Grey Dawn]

Too much of Gasol's success is predicated on Kobe.

[cavsfanatic]

^^^^This rofl like people forget when Pau was the centerpiece of a team he couldnt push passed the 1st round. Dirk on the other hand brought his team to the Finals. Pau success is partially due to Kobe also, Pau is a a great addition to a team while Dirk is the franchise player.
its ridiculous. These fools think Gasol better than Dirk? wow this is amazing. Pau didnt win a game at all in the playoffs lmao. I can understand not getting out of the 1st round but not winning a game in 3 tries? unforgivable

[pegasus]

Even Gasol would admit that Dirk is faaaar better. He is the greatest non-American player of all time (I consider Duncan American because of the national games he played).

[Collie]

How would the Mavs fare with Gasol? Not much better than the Grizz I'd presume. That's why you have to take other factors into account rather than championships. KG didn't magically get better because he won the 08 championship. He was always a top 4 PF in NBA history even before that.

[TROLL_HUNTER]

Ok this is getting ridiculous. Lets look at this way: Gasol, would never, under any circumstances, win an mvp. Or even come in top 5 voting. If that isn't a measure of how much better/greater Dirk is than I don't know what is.



this just demonstrates how little literate ball fans are , sadly. for guys like you a popularity contest is more accountable than real competition. fair enough, its impossible to debate seriously over here.

some others claim Gasol never won anything outside the Lakers...wow..i didnt know Kobe played for Barcelona and for spanish national team, too. maybe he used white make up ?? Dirk and also USA played the international competition and Spain won titles with Gasol as the main star. where is that "second option label" ? And another question: The Lakers are the in the finals for 3 years in a row with gasol with a major role in it, not just a role player.. you are telling me that is worth less than MVP votes even if it doesnt translate in titles? By the way, in the international forum, in which Dirk also takes part, Gasol has more INDIVIDUAL accolades, namely MVP, than Dirk.

Still, i dont say who is superior cos its pretty much a tie. Im just shocked at seeing what kind of lame reasons are given sometimes

[Samurai Swoosh]

Dirk is the king of choke. I'll take Gasol any day over Dirk.
Really? Gasol wouldn't even have a chance to "choke" if he didn't have #24 on his team. Dirk is the main dude on his team. Does he buckle at times under pressure? Sure. But he's gotten better with it over the years. Gasol is still at times extremely soft, and I would not have the confidence in Gasol leading a team as I would Dirk Nowitzki.

LOL @ the person on page 1 who said Yao > Gasol. Yao is even softer than Gasol. Totally fails as a sidekick or a lead option. T-Mac balled out of his mind in the 2005 playoffs, and Yao couldn't even produce enough to help the guy get out of the first round. Yao Ming is WEAK as f uck.

[creepingdeath]

but he is not european, he is south american.
Erm... durrrrrrrrr? You basically explained it yourself, why the statement of the poster above has been ridiculous.



Pardon? that's really a weird statment
How so?


Both Gasol and Dirk are equally great. If Dirk would have been that better than Gasol he would have taken Germany to the finals in the international forum and thats not happened. Likewise Gasol didnt manage to get past first round in Memphis cos his team sucked as much as Dirk's Germany sucks too.
Memphis without Pau would beat up Germany's national team without Dirk anyday in a blowout win. Anyday.


Now c'mon guys, this is getting atrociously absurd. Dirk is by far the better and greater player. That doesn't mean Pau isn't a very, very good and sometimes highly underrated player. But we're comparing a great 2nd banana with an all-time great franchise player who has much more individual accolades - he's been in the MVP voting top 10 for the last 9 years, three of those seasons being winning calibre.


By the way, in the international forum, in which Dirk also takes part, Gasol has more INDIVIDUAL accolades, namely MVP, than Dirk.
By the way, Dirk has been the MVP and topscorer of the World Championship in 2002 and of the EC in 2005.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

Gasol has a better career than Dirk. He has better team success and in FIBA it's not even close, not only he is better team wise, he's better individually also. Dirk has better stats..............good for him, he can join McGrady, Iverson and the rest of the losers that only care about stats.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

id take ginobli over both. though he's not technically european, thats where he made his name.

Manu is Italian. He's an Italian from Argentina. So yes, he's European.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

[QUOTE=SsKSpurs21]how is it ridiculous? Manu has accomplished more than both of these guys on an international level. but he is not european, he is south american.

Awards

* Italian League All-Star: 1999, 2000, 2001
* Italian League Most Improved Player: 2000, 2001, 2002
* Euroleague Final Four Most Valuable Player: 2001
* FIBA Americas Championship Most Valuable Player: 2001
* Italian Cup Most Valuable Player: 2002
* All-Tournament Team, FIBA World Championship: 2002, 2006
* Ideal Olympics Team: 2004
* Olimpia de Oro: 2003, 2004 (shared with Carlos T

[Lakas Fan Yo]

Dirk is the G.O.A.T. European basketball player. An NBA Superstar and franchise player who has won 50+ games for what 10 years in a row and has a finals appearance as the guy. He's also scored 50 points in a playoff game. Pau Gasol is a nice second banana, he's a utility guy, he's a solid defender, excellent rebounder and fantastic passer for a big. Very nice player. But Dirk Nowitzki he ain't.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_gZ18TgcVF2w/StzDGrmKS6I/AAAAAAAAGR8/FCZm-km7tps/s400/Dirk+hair.jpg

Total BS.

Petrovic, Belov, Galis, Sabonis, etc. There are several other players as well. guys Americans have never even heard of.

Dirk is NOT the best European player ever. Anyone saying that is a clear 100% NBA only fan and has a real lack of basic basketball knowledge.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

:roll: :hammerhead:

Dirk is a better player in every situation, NBA or FIBA rules; play-off or pick up game. Gasol has been more successful, because he plays on a great national team and he has a great team in LA with the best player and coach in the league.

Dirk didn't even play well the last two times he played FIBA. He looked worse in FIBA than he did against the Warriors in the playoffs.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

Even Gasol would admit that Dirk is faaaar better. He is the greatest non-American player of all time (I consider Duncan American because of the national games he played).
'
This post is laughable. Dirk might be the best NBA international in the NBA ever. He certainly is not better than guys like Nick Galis, Oscar Schmidt.........


you certainly are the definition of NBA only fan. Dirk is not close to the best non American player ever.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

Erm... durrrrrrrrr? You basically explained it yourself, why the statement of the poster above has been ridiculous.



How so?


Memphis without Pau would beat up Germany's national team without Dirk anyday in a blowout win. Anyday.


Now c'mon guys, this is getting atrociously absurd. Dirk is by far the better and greater player. That doesn't mean Pau isn't a very, very good and sometimes highly underrated player. But we're comparing a great 2nd banana with an all-time great franchise player who has much more individual accolades - he's been in the MVP voting top 10 for the last 9 years, three of those seasons being winning calibre.


By the way, Dirk has been the MVP and topscorer of the World Championship in 2002 and of the EC in 2005.


You are a funny guy.

Germany's national team has all kinds of good players.

Elias Harris
Robin Benzing
Tibor Pleiss
Jan Jagla
Chris Kaman
Heiko Schaffartzik
Tim Olbrecht
Dirk


Their entire rotation is made up of players that can easily, EASILY play in the NBA. You clearly don't have even a shred of knowledge about the game of basketball on anything not related to the NBA.

[pegasus]

'
This post is laughable. Dirk might be the best NBA international in the NBA ever. He certainly is not better than guys like Nick Galis, Oscar Schmidt.........


you certainly are the definition of NBA only fan. Dirk is not close to the best non American player ever.

I'm European myself, and yes, I do believe that Dirk is the best international ever. Galis and Schmidt were great players, but did not have the NBA career to back up your case. Sorry, but Greek, Italian and Spanish leagues are not much comparing to the NBA.

[Disaprine]

jesus christ people, its dirk and its not even close.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

I'm European myself, and yes, I do believe that Dirk is the best international ever. Galis and Schmidt were great players, but did not have the NBA career to back up your case. Sorry, but Greek, Italian and Spanish leagues are not much comparing to the NBA.


Galis and Schmidt would run circles around Dirk. It's not even debatable for me. Those guys were far better than Dirk is.

[clayton]

Dirk did it all alone. When Gasol was in his situation, his team still sucked.

[R.I.P.]

this just demonstrates how little literate ball fans are , sadly. for guys like you a popularity contest is more accountable than real competition. fair enough, its impossible to debate seriously over here.

some others claim Gasol never won anything outside the Lakers...wow..i didnt know Kobe played for Barcelona and for spanish national team, too. maybe he used white make up ?? Dirk and also USA played the international competition and Spain won titles with Gasol as the main star. where is that "second option label" ? And another question: The Lakers are the in the finals for 3 years in a row with gasol with a major role in it, not just a role player.. you are telling me that is worth less than MVP votes even if it doesnt translate in titles? By the way, in the international forum, in which Dirk also takes part, Gasol has more INDIVIDUAL accolades, namely MVP, than Dirk.

Still, i dont say who is superior cos its pretty much a tie. Im just shocked at seeing what kind of lame reasons are given sometimes


Dirk has been the tournament MVP in the 2002 Worlds and 2005 Euros you dimwit. In 2002 he singlehandidly led Germany, and a bunch of D-League wannabes to the bronze medal. In the quarterfinal they BEAT a Pau Gasol led Spain, that also featured Calderon, Navarro, Jimenez and Reyes . Dirk scored 10 points in the last quarter alone. :oldlol:

[Lakas Fan Yo]

Dirk has been the tournament MVP in the 2002 Worlds and 2005 Euros you dimwit. In 2002 he singlehandidly led Germany, and a bunch of D-League wannabes to the bronze medal. In the quarterfinal they BEAT a Pau Gasol led Spain, that also featured Calderon, Navarro, Jimenez and Reyes . Dirk scored 10 points in the last quarter alone. :oldlol:

Dirk was very good years ago in FIBA. The last two times he played in FIBA he was as bad or worse as he was in the playoffs against the Warriors.

As soon as international teams learned to put an athletic wing with length on him defensively he was no longer anything all that special in FIBA.

Also, Dirk has never won a championship in FIBA. Gasol won a European and world championship.

Finally, after Dirk won that EuroBasket MVP, FIBA Europe actually changed the rules so that a player from the losing team could not win the MVP again. That's how controversial his EuroBasket MVP was.

So many people thought it was totally undeserved and was given simply and solely because he was a well known NBA player, that FIBA actually made a rule change to prevent that happening again at the EuroBasket.

In other words, his EuroBasket MVP was not considered legit in Europe.

[R.I.P.]

You are a funny guy.

Germany's national team has all kinds of good players.

Elias Harris
Robin Benzing
Tibor Pleiss
Jan Jagla
Chris Kaman
Heiko Schaffartzik
Tim Olbrecht
Dirk


Their entire rotation is made up of players that can easily, EASILY play in the NBA. You clearly don't have even a shred of knowledge about the game of basketball on anything not related to the NBA.

80% of these guys haven

[Kellogs4toniee]

For those who think Dirk is above my a landslide, it's closer than one would think. Gasol has been a dependable 18-20 PPG scorer for his entire career. He got bailed (as did the Lakers) when he signed with them, but a championship is a championship regardless. That one championship ring + consistency + world championship success + 3 straight final trips is enough to pull him close to Dirk.

[GovernmentMan]

How many timed does it have to be explained to NBA fans? Manu is Italian. He plays for Argentina's national team, but he IS Italian.

Also, there is no such thing as Ideal Olympics Team. It's really getting funny seeing NBA fans keep citing wikipedia.

Uh, he's not Italian. He's Argentinian.

[SsKSpurs21]

How many timed does it have to be explained to NBA fans? Manu is Italian. He plays for Argentina's national team, but he IS Italian.

Also, there is no such thing as Ideal Olympics Team. It's really getting funny seeing NBA fans keep citing wikipedia.

LOL, do you need a globe? Manu was born in Argentina, his parents are from argentina, which makes him SOUTH AMERICAN. he played basketball in italy, that doesnt make him italian. :hammerhead:

[Lakas Fan Yo]

[QUOTE=R.I.P.]80% of these guys haven

[Lakas Fan Yo]

LOL, do you need a globe? Manu was born in Argentina, his parents are from argentina, which makes him SOUTH AMERICAN. he played basketball in italy, that doesnt make him italian. :hammerhead:

His parents are Italian. Ginobili is an ITALIAN name. When he was born he had Italian citizenship.

He IS an Italian citizen.

So let me get this straight...............John McCain who was born in Panama and ran for the President of the US is not American? Because using your "logic" he can't be. He would clearly be "Panamanian".

Perhaps you should think before you post.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

Uh, he's not Italian. He's Argentinian.

He's Italian heritage and an Italian citizen. He's Argentine citizen, but not an Argentine heritage. I know the educational system in the US is incredibly poor, but seriously..........

Some of you are too much. If you are born to an Italian family, have an Italian name, have Italian citizenship from birth, then yes, believe it or not, you are considered Italian.

[GovernmentMan]

He's Italian heritage and an Italian citizen. He's Argentine citizen, but not an Argentine heritage. I know the educational system in the US is incredibly poor, but seriously..........

Some of you are too much. If you are born to an Italian family, have an Italian name, have Italian citizenship from birth, then yes, believe it or not, you are considered Italian.

and where did you get your excellent schooling from?

he's Argentinian born and bred. Ask him what he is. He'll say Argentinian.

[GovernmentMan]

His parents are Italian. Ginobili is an ITALIAN name. When he was born he had Italian citizenship.

He IS an Italian citizen.

So let me get this straight...............John McCain who was born in Panama and ran for the President of the US is not American? Because using your "logic" he can't be. He would clearly be "Panamanian".

Perhaps you should think before you post.

John McCain never had Panamanian citizenship though. he was just born in a abse

[Lakas Fan Yo]

and where did you get your excellent schooling from?

he's Argentinian born and bred. Ask him what he is. He'll say Argentinian.

John McCain was born in Panama. Barack Obama lived most of his childhood in Indonesia and spent most of his early adult life in Pakistan.


Yet somehow they were able to run for US President, where supposedly there are strict rules about where you are born and how long you live in the US to be eligible for that office.

Using your logic, neither one of them has any right in the least to even be allowed to run for President.

Also, using your logic anyone that is Italian in the United States is not Italian. You could go right through the Gambino crime family and not find a single Italian according to your retarded "logic".

So according to you, Yao Ming's kid is not Chinese, since it was born in the US and lives in Houston. Yep, no way in hell can that kid be called Chinese.

Seriously, get a damn education.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

John McCain never had Panamanian citizenship though. he was just born in a abse

Oh so according to you, where you have citizenship at birth determines what nationality you can claim. Your own "argument". Ginobili was born an Italian citizen.

[creepingdeath]

You are a funny guy.

Germany's national team has all kinds of good players.

Elias Harris
Robin Benzing
Tibor Pleiss
Jan Jagla
Chris Kaman
Heiko Schaffartzik
Tim Olbrecht
Dirk


:roll: Stupid dumbass, I live in Germany and thus am able to watch the German league LIVE and those kind of examples are just plain stupid and disqualify you for the whole discussion. Elias Harris, Tibor Pleiss, Robin Benzing? GTFO, Dirk and those guys didn't play a single game together.
Did you just go to wikipedia and randomly pick any players? You gotta be friggin' kidding me.



In other words, his EuroBasket MVP was not considered legit in Europe.
:roll: Did you even watch the final game, Greece vs Germany? Dirk was substituted a few minutes before the game ended, because coach Bauermann acknowledged the game has been already lost. And guess what? Dirk got STANDING OVATIONS, even by fans of the opponent because he was clearly the best player of the tournament.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

:roll: Stupid dumbass, I live in Germany and thus am able to watch the German league LIVE and those kind of examples are just plain stupid and disqualify you for the whole discussion. Elias Harris, Tibor Pleiss, Robin Benzing? GTFO, Dirk and those guys didn't play a single game together.
Did you just go to wikipedia and randomly pick any players? You gotta be friggin' kidding me.


:roll: Did you even watch the final game, Greece vs Germany? Dirk was substituted a few minutes before the game ended, because coach Bauermann acknowledged the game has been already lost. And guess what? Dirk got STANDING OVATIONS, even by fans of the opponent because he was clearly the best player of the tournament.

I did not go to wikipedia. In case you did not notice I already pointed out that wikipedia is bs and had a made up award on Manu's page in this very thread. Also, Harris does not even play in Germany. So it appears you are the one that has no clue.

I merely pointed out that Germany's national team is not a bunch of useless scrubs as these NBA only fans say. They like to lie. Also, I clearly stated the list of players that Dirk did play with, which includes many good players.

And like I said, he played with Kaman in 2008 and didn't do a damn thing. According to these NBA only fans Kaman should dominate every single non NBA player. According to these NBA only fans a team of Dirk and Kaman should annihilate any European national team for example. Of course these NBA only fans don't have even basic basketball knowledge, but it does not stop them from making all these absurd comments and arguments.

And Dirk did not deserve his EuroBasket MVP. That is why FIBA Europe made a rule after he won it that from then on no one could win the MVP without winning the tournament. They also made sure that NBA media members only got 50% of the votes as a new rule.

BTW, since "Dirk was clearly the best player of the tournament" why don't you name all the NBA Finals MVPs from the team that lost the Finals. In addition to that, why don't all these NBA only fans explain how mighty NBAer Dirk lost to a Greek team in the EuroBasket final that featured a whopping ZERO NBA players. Since Dirk "dominates FIBA" as people are claiming here.

It's really funny, how some argue "Dirk played with scrubs" and the SAME people argue anyone not in the NBA is "a scrub". Yet Dirk could not even beat 12 "Euro scrubs".

Yes, indeed, "clearly the best player"...........

[Grinder]

:roll: Stupid dumbass, I live in Germany and thus am able to watch the German league LIVE and those kind of examples are just plain stupid and disqualify you for the whole discussion. Elias Harris, Tibor Pleiss, Robin Benzing? GTFO, Dirk and those guys didn't play a single game together.
Did you just go to wikipedia and randomly pick any players? You gotta be friggin' kidding me.


:roll: Did you even watch the final game, Greece vs Germany? Dirk was substituted a few minutes before the game ended, because coach Bauermann acknowledged the game has been already lost. And guess what? Dirk got STANDING OVATIONS, even by fans of the opponent because he was clearly the best player of the tournament.


Even better, he mentions Ohlbrecht who was 19 at the time of the Olympics and is putting up less than 8 ppg on <50% shooting on a Eurocup team and is projected to go undrafted. Demond Greene and Robert Garrett are horrible, Jagla and Kaman are the only other decent players on that team. Pascal friggin Roller and Stefan Hamann were the guards...just awful. :oldlol:

Germany's got the potential to have a good team this year:
Heiko Schaffartzik
Elias Harris
Robin Benzig
Dirk Nowitzki
Chris Kaman
Jan Jagla

[GovernmentMan]

John McCain was born in Panama. Barack Obama lived most of his childhood in Indonesia and spent most of his early adult life in Pakistan.


Yet somehow they were able to run for US President, where supposedly there are strict rules about where you are born and how long you live in the US to be eligible for that office.

Using your logic, neither one of them has any right in the least to even be allowed to run for President.

Also, using your logic anyone that is Italian in the United States is not Italian. You could go right through the Gambino crime family and not find a single Italian according to your retarded "logic".

So according to you, Yao Ming's kid is not Chinese, since it was born in the US and lives in Houston. Yep, no way in hell can that kid be called Chinese.

Seriously, get a damn education.


Uh, Obama lived most of his early adulthood in Pakistan? So much for your "education"

Why even use Obama as an example? He was born in Hawaii, a US State, so he's different from these other people.




Oh so according to you, where you have citizenship at birth determines what nationality you can claim. Your own "argument". Ginobili was born an Italian citizen.

He was also born Argentinian. Besides, i'd like to see how you know if he was born with Italian citizenship or if he claimed it later.

[creepingdeath]

I merely pointed out that Germany's national team is not a bunch of useless scrubs as these NBA only fans say. The like to lie. Also, I clearly stated the list of players that Dirk did play with, which includes many good players.
Yeah, so you tried to prove a point by naming, what.. yeah, scrubs like Pleiss, Harris, Benzing... Very talented, indeed. But good players on an international level? Not yet. And more importantly, as I have already pointed out, those guys didn't even play during Nowitzki's tenure. :applause:


And like I said he played with Kaman in 2008 and didn't do a damn thing. According to these NBA only fans Kaman should dominate every single non NBA player. According to these NBA only fans a team of Dirk and Kaman should annihilate any European national team for example. Of course these NBA only fans don't have even basic basketball knowledge, but it does not stop them from making all these absurd comments and arguments.
I never said anything about European players being vastly inferior to NBA players.
So Kaman and Dirk played together at the Olympics. So what? The other national teams' line-ups have been better by far. Also, the game against China was rigged, because, guess what, the Olympics took place in China.


And Dirk did not deserve his EuroBasket MVP. That is why FIBA Europe made a rule after he won it that from then on no one could win the MVP without winning the tournament. They also made sure that NBA media members only got 50% of the votes as a new rule.
This rule being implemented has nothing to do with Dirk's MVP being, according to you, undeserving. Just because it's an unwritten rule in the NBA that the best player of the winning team becomes the finals MVP, doesn't mean that Jerry West's finals MVP '69 was undeserving, on the contrary. Billups, on the other hand, has been clearly the inferior player in comparison to Shaq, who has been dominating the finals.

The FIBA changed it not because there have been any complaints about Nowitzki being named as the Finals MVP but because it has always been an unwritten rule, as I said.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

Even better, he mentions Ohlbrecht who was 19 at the time of the Olympics and is putting up less than 8 ppg on <50% shooting on a Eurocup team and is projected to go undrafted. Demond Greene and Robert Garrett are horrible, Jagla and Kaman are the only other decent players on that team. Pascal friggin Roller and Stefan Hamann were the guards...just awful. :oldlol:

Germany's got the potential to have a good team this year:
Heiko Schaffartzik
Elias Harris
Robin Benzig
Dirk Nowitzki
Chris Kaman
Jan Jagla

Everyone knows you are a fake. Give it up.

[GovernmentMan]

This whole argument is based on your stupid quote that "Manu is Italian. He plays for Argentina's national team, but he IS Italian."

You're basically saying he's not Argentinian. He "only plays for their national team."

That is a slap to the face to all children of immigrants. You're basically telling children born to immigrants in the US that they're not really American, but that they're (wherever their parents are from).

[Lakas Fan Yo]

Uh, Obama lived most of his early adulthood in Pakistan? So much for your "education"

Why even use Obama as an example? He was born in Hawaii, a US State, so he's different from these other people.





He was also born Argentinian. Besides, i'd like to see how you know if he was born with Italian citizenship or if he claimed it later.

Yes Obama lived in Pakistan. Manu was born Italian. Don't you get it?

I pointed it out McCain was born in Panama and yet is a US citizen. Apparently it went right over your head.

News flash, if you have Italian parents you are born as an Italian citizen. Just like if you have American parents you can be born anywhere and be American.

But I guess even spelling things out for you with blatant examples is too much for you to grasp.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

Yeah, so you tried to prove a point by naming, what.. yeah, scrubs like Pleiss, Harris, Benzing... Very talented, indeed. But good players on an international level? Not yet. And more importantly, as I have already pointed out, those guys didn't even play during Nowitzki's tenure. :applause:


I never said anything about European players being vastly inferior to NBA players.
So Kaman and Dirk played together at the Olympics. So what? The other national teams' line-ups have been better by far. Also, the game against China was rigged, because, guess what, the Olympics took place in China.


This rule being implemented has nothing to do with Dirk's MVP being, according to you, undeserving. Just because it's an unwritten rule in the NBA that the best player of the winning team becomes the finals MVP, doesn't mean that Jerry West's finals MVP '69 was undeserving, on the contrary. Billups, on the other hand, has been clearly the inferior player in comparison to Shaq, who has been dominating the finals.

The FIBA changed it not because there have been any complaints about Nowitzki being named as the Finals MVP but because it has always been an unwritten rule, as I said.

FIBA changed the rule because of all the complaints after Dirk won. They also changed it to where only 50% of the votes could go to NBA media members since NBA media guys had 80% of the vote when Dirk won.

And yes, the fact that the NBA gives the Finals MVP to a guy from the winning team should be a clue to you. FIBA was shocked when the NBA media gave Dirk that MVP and had to actually write a rule to prevent it from happening again.

That 2005 MVP was not considered legit in Europe. The other FIBA tournaments don't seem to care who gets MVP. But in Europe the idea is the SAME as in the NBA. The MVP comes from the WINNING team.

I'm not saying Dirk isn't a good player. He's obviously a 5-10 top player in the NBA. He's had the best NBA stats of any foreign player and one of the best even of any American player.

The guy is a great player overall and I'm not saying otherwise. But the bottom line is that this whole "Dirk carried a bunch of scrubs to titles in FIBA" and "Dirk dominates FIBA" is total BS.

I don't think Dirk would even make a top 10 list of best FIBA players in the last decade. Gasol definitely would. Anyone that thinks Dirk dominated in FIBA is either an idiot or a liar.

There is no reason for some people to lie just to try to prop Dirk up. If he was so "dominant" in FIBA as people claim he could have won a EuroBasket. He had several good players on his team.

And once again, he played against 12 "Euro scrubs" who according to NBA fans all suck anyway. You say Dirk and Kaman can't win anything, well then how the hell is he "dominant"?

I can't honestly imagine any serious basketball fan in Europe (outside Germany) that would say Gasol has not been better than Dirk in FIBA in the recent years. It's just a fact. Hell, several European players have been better in FIBA than Dirk in recent years. And never once did anyone ever use the word "dominant" to describe any of them.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

This whole argument is based on your stupid quote that "Manu is Italian. He plays for Argentina's national team, but he IS Italian."

You're basically saying he's not Argentinian. He "only plays for their national team."

That is a slap to the face to all children of immigrants. You're basically telling children born to immigrants in the US that they're not really American, but that they're (wherever their parents are from).

No. You are the one that is being an ignorant jerk. I never said he was not Argentine. He is. I'm merely pointing out that you are wrong to say he is not Italian.

He's an Argentine-Italian. He IS Italian. Only extreme xenophobes would say otherwise. I never denied he was Argentine. But you deny he is Italian. He is both, so that makes you a xenophobe.

And FYI, "Argentinian" is considered offensive. No surprise you didn't even know that either. It's Argentine.

[Showtime]

most accomplished yes, but Dirk is still a 1a, the best Pau has been is a 2.
Pau has been a franchise player. Jesus Christ people, he existed prior to LA.

[GovernmentMan]

Yes Obama lived in Pakistan. Manu was born Italian. Don't you get it?

I pointed it out McCain was born in Panama and yet is a US citizen. Apparently it went right over your head.

News flash, if you have Italian parents you are born as an Italian citizen. Just like if you have American parents you can be born anywhere and be American.

But I guess even spelling things out for you with blatant examples is too much for you to grasp.

Apparently, a 3-week trip to Pakistan is now "living most of his early adult life"

Again, McCain was born to US Serviceman station in another country. He has never Panamanian.

These are bad examples. If you're gonna use an analogy, then make an argument that children born to the US of immigrants and are US citizens themselves are not really American but whatever their parents are from

Also, from what I've read, Manu wasn't an Italian citizen at birth. He has citizenship rights stemming from his Italian ancestry, and later used that to move and claim citizenship in the US. Not 100% sure though

[flintstone]

No. You are the one that is being an ignorant jerk. I never said he was not Argentine. He is. I'm merely pointing out that you are wrong to say he is not Italian.

He's an Argentine-Italian. He IS Italian. Only extreme xenophobes would say otherwise. I never denied he was Argentine. But you deny he is Italian. He is both, so that makes you a xenophobe.

And FYI, "Argentinian" is considered offensive. No surprise you didn't even know that either. It's Argentine.

Yes, he has multiple citizenship.......so he can claim both.

[Showtime]

Gasol couldn't win a playoff game before joining la.

What teams was he swept by? The Spurs, Suns, and Mavs, all of whom in the early to mid 2000's were top contenders in the west. Pau had solid defensive teams, but not a lot of firepower and they just weren't good enough. It doesn't mean that he wasn't a great PF at that time.



I'd take dirk 200 times over gasol. Dirk hit more gw's this season than pau has his whole career

I didn't know that game-winning shots was the only determining factor to consider when evaluating talent.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

Apparently, a 3-week trip to Pakistan is now "living most of his early adult life"

Again, McCain was born to US Serviceman station in another country. He has never Panamanian.

These are bad examples. If you're gonna use an analogy, then make an argument that children born to the US of immigrants and are US citizens themselves are not really American but whatever their parents are from

Also, from what I've read, Manu wasn't an Italian citizen at birth. He has citizenship rights stemming from his Italian ancestry, and later used that to move and claim citizenship in the US. Not 100% sure though

You are clearly a xenophobe.

[TROLL_HUNTER]

My goodness, each time i checked the post it gets more and more ridiculous. Discussing Manu's nationality.. :hammerhead: :lol HE IS ARGENTINIAN. GODDAMIT.

Anyway, its off the topic. Again, discussing the best euro ever and not mentioning Sabonis is heresy, like discussing the best player ever and having MJ missing. I think Dirk and Gasol would be debatable top 5 for Europe but not a clear cut for the number one spot.

[GovernmentMan]

No. You are the one that is being an ignorant jerk. I never said he was not Argentine. He is. I'm merely pointing out that you are wrong to say he is not Italian.

He's an Argentine-Italian. He IS Italian. Only extreme xenophobes would say otherwise. I never denied he was Argentine. But you deny he is Italian. He is both, so that makes you a xenophobe.

And FYI, "Argentinian" is considered offensive. No surprise you didn't even know that either. It's Argentine.

I never said he wasn't Italian. He's obviously of pure Italian descent.

but he's not a "European player." He's Argentinian first and foremost. Born and raised. If you ask him what he is, he says Argentinian/Argentine. Ask him what national soccer team he cheers for - Argentina.

also, care to tell me how "Argentinian" is offensive?

[scm5]

Dirk is the better player, Pau is the better post player, which makes him more valuable to some teams.

So it really depends on what kind of player your team needs. Pau can give you easier buckets, but Dirk can give you those bigtime 3 point buckets when your team needs em.

[T_Element]

this just demonstrates how little literate ball fans are , sadly. for guys like you a popularity contest is more accountable than real competition. fair enough, its impossible to debate seriously over here.

some others claim Gasol never won anything outside the Lakers...wow..i didnt know Kobe played for Barcelona and for spanish national team, too. maybe he used white make up ?? Dirk and also USA played the international competition and Spain won titles with Gasol as the main star. where is that "second option label" ? And another question: The Lakers are the in the finals for 3 years in a row with gasol with a major role in it, not just a role player.. you are telling me that is worth less than MVP votes even if it doesnt translate in titles? By the way, in the international forum, in which Dirk also takes part, Gasol has more INDIVIDUAL accolades, namely MVP, than Dirk.

Still, i dont say who is superior cos its pretty much a tie. Im just shocked at seeing what kind of lame reasons are given sometimes

Ok let me put it in terms even someone like you can understand. How many years can you say Gasol has been a top 10 player in the league? Probably 1, maybe 2. Dirk on the other hand, has been on that list almost every year this decade. Not ripping on Gasol or anything, he's a great player, and its a testament to his accomplishments that he's even being mentioned in the same sentence as Dirk.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

My goodness, each time i checked the post it gets more and more ridiculous. Discussing Manu's nationality.. :hammerhead: :lol HE IS ARGENTINIAN. GODDAMIT.

Anyway, its off the topic. Again, discussing the best euro ever and not mentioning Sabonis is heresy, like discussing the best player ever and having MJ missing. I think Dirk and Gasol would be debatable top 5 for Europe but not a clear cut for the number one spot.

He also has Italian nationality genius.

Sabonis was not THE best player in Europe in his time. The best players in Europe in the 1980s were Galis and Petrovic and Schmidt and Marciolonis. Sabonis came after them.

You could argue Schmidt was not European, but he was also a German so your point would be xenophobic nonsense like the Manu isn't Italian nonsense. Anyway, he played in Europe at the time and that's really what you mean.

Anyone that thinks Sabonis was better than Petrovic, Galis, Marciolonis Schmidt in that era is an NBA fan boy as far as I am concerned. Basing it solely on Sabonis playing against David Robinson and nothing more. It certainly isn't based on what actually happened in European basketball in that era.

The whole Sabonis myth is just more NBA marketing from the NBA and NBA only fans.

[GovernmentMan]

You are clearly a xenophobe.


How the hell am I a xenophobe? I'm the one arguing that people born to a country are as much a citizen of that country as anyone else.

If anything, you're the xenophobe. You claimed Obama spent his early adulthood in Pakistan, which I've only heard xenophobic right-wingers claim.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

I never said he wasn't Italian. He's obviously of pure Italian descent.

but he's not a "European player." He's Argentinian first and foremost. Born and raised. If you ask him what he is, he says Argentinian/Argentine. Ask him what national soccer team he cheers for - Argentina.

also, care to tell me how "Argentinian" is offensive?

If what you say is true then Kobe isn't an American player, but an Italian one because it was in Italy where he learned to play basketball and was trained in a sports club. In fact, that's why many basketball experts believe he is more fundamentally gifted than other NBA stars.

Using your logic, Kobe is an Italian player and not an American one.

[tommy3]

Lol @ the people who think that Dirk wouldn't fit in the triangle offense...

[GovernmentMan]

If what you say is true then Kobe isn't an American player, but an Italian one because it was in Italy where he learned to play basketball and was trained in a sports club. In fact, that's why many basketball experts believe he is more fundamentally gifted than other NBA stars.

Using your logic, Kobe is an Italian player and not an American one.

Alright, so you're just trolling now

[pegasus]

If what you say is true then Kobe isn't an American player, but an Italian one because it was in Italy where he learned to play basketball and was trained in a sports club. In fact, that's why many basketball experts believe he is more fundamentally gifted than other NBA stars.

Using your logic, Kobe is an Italian player and not an American one.

Kobe IS Italian! /thread

[TROLL_HUNTER]

He also has Italian nationality genius.

Sabonis was not THE best player in Europe in his time. The best players in Europe in the 1980s were Galis and Petrovic and Schmidt and Marciolonis. Sabonis came after them.

You could argue Schmidt was not European, but he was also a German so your point would be xenophobic nonsense like the Manu isn't Italian nonsense. Anyway, he played in Europe at the time and that's really what you mean.

Anyone that thinks Sabonis was better than Petrovic, Galis, Marciolonis Schmidt in that era is an NBA fan boy as far as I am concerned. Basing it solely on Sabonis playing against David Robinson and nothing more. It certainly isn't based on what actually happened in European basketball in that era.

The whole Sabonis myth is just more NBA marketing from the NBA and NBA only fans.




Oh my..... ok, Manu has italian nationality, yes , AS HALF THE ARGENTINIANS HAVE DOUBLE NATIONALITY EITHER ITALIAN OR SPANISH. DOES THAT MAKE THEM EUROPEANS?? DO THEY FEEL EUROPEANS?? ANSWER IS NO


Being this clear, I put Sabonis as an example of a huge center that is unknown to the current nba fans, obviously. I watched him play IN EUROPE and very little in the nba, since he was already far from his prime when he arrived in usa. Just an example, man. yes, Petrovic and Schmidt also belong there, no doubt. As i have stated a few times, top 5 , top 10 , whatever..it doesnt matter. Neither Pau nor Dirk are clearly better (if better just the same) than any of the before mentioned players so to claim "the greatest" is just wrong.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

Ok let me put it in terms even someone like you can understand. How many years can you say Gasol has been a top 10 player in the league? Probably 1, maybe 2. Dirk on the other hand, has been on that list almost every year this decade. Not ripping on Gasol or anything, he's a great player, and its a testament to his accomplishments that he's even being mentioned in the same sentence as Dirk.

Let me spell it out for you. Dirk is better in the regular season in the NBA. Pau is better in the playoffs when it matters. No one is denying Dirk is a great player, very easily you argue top 5 or even better. But in terms of winning he does not have it.

Pau Gasol is a winner. Anyone saying differently does not follow his career. The guy takes the Lakers from being nothing to maybe winning multiple titles and he led his national team to winning the highest level tournament (world championship) and the EuroBasket, which is about as good as the Olympics in terms of level, maybe even better to be honest about it.

The only basketball fans in the world that think stats matter more than winning are the fan boys.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

How the hell am I a xenophobe? I'm the one arguing that people born to a country are as much a citizen of that country as anyone else.

If anything, you're the xenophobe. You claimed Obama spent his early adulthood in Pakistan, which I've only heard xenophobic right-wingers claim.

Whatever. You are a definite xenophobe. I'm done with you.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

Alright, so you're just trolling now

No, I'm just pointing out that you have zero logic and reasoning.

[creepingdeath]

Let me spell it out for you. Dirk is better in the regular season in the NBA. Pau is better in the playoffs when it matters. No one is denying Dirk is a great player, very easily you argue top 5 or even better. But in terms of winning he does not have it.
C'mon.. only a fanboy or a Dirk hater would be so insane to claim that.

And another thing: Am I the only person who thinks that the OP was talking about the greatest European player to ever play in the NBA? Because if so, we shouldn't even take guys like Schmidt into consideration.

[PejaNowitzki]

Obviously when we are talking about individual career stats and long term NBA succes Dirk has better numbers, but that isn't exactly the questions here.
When talking about greatness you have do take more aspects into account, especially team succes.
Gasol has already won a ring and is in the finals again. And remember he was a major factor why the Lakers are back on top again. Before Gasol arrived they hardly made the playoffs at all.
He led his national team to World and European championchips as well as an olympic silver medal.
So overall I would say from an european perspective Gasol has a legit shot to be considered greater then Dirk at this stage of his career. For europeans winning a world championchip counts a lot more then leading a team to the conference finals for example.
So what about the american perspective?




Not even close, Nowitzki led teams to Conference Finals and the NBA Finals, Gasol led teams to first round sweeps. Put Nowitzki on the Lakers and they are scary as shit.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

Being this clear, I put Sabonis as an example of a huge center that is unknown to the current nba fans, obviously. I watched him play IN EUROPE and very little in the nba, since he was already far from his prime when he arrived in usa. Just an example, man. yes, Petrovic and Schmidt also belong there, no doubt. As i have stated a few times, top 5 , top 10 , whatever..it doesnt matter. Neither Pau nor Dirk are clearly better (if better just the same) than any of the before mentioned players so to claim "the greatest" is just wrong.


Well, back in this era in question to me the best players are the guys that actually did and played the best. And I saw these guys and the truth is that Sabonis is created by NBA fans and their nonsense myths.

He was a great player and I'm not denying that. I just don't think he was the best in that era in Europe. He is probably the best center ever from Europe. Yes that is true. But I think it's just more NBA fan myths that they created this idea that he was leaps and bounds better than every guy in Europe.

First, Galis was the best I ever saw. And all the players in question, even Sabonis even said Galis was the best. Sabonis himself said Galis was better than him. Galis is the guy that beat Yugoslavia and USSR practically by himself. NBA fans are so clueless. They don't know anything. Galis would have beat the USA back then too. I mean hell he beat USSR twice.

All Americans say is "Sabonis is the reason the US went to NBA players". They don't even realize that the same USSR team could not even beat Galis.

Then to me the next guy was Schmidt. And I'm not alone in thinking that. Several NBA players that played against him at the Olympics said he was the best they ever saw. This guy was dominating in Spain to a level that Sabonis never came to either.

The next guy was Petrovic. This guy was unreal. NBA fans just don't get it. They would not play him in Portland then he went to the Nets and immediately started lighting it up. Then he dies before he could get it going. NBA fans say "he was in his prime and was not that good". BS. In another 2 years in the NBA he would have shown how good he was. Dirk is no Drazen and never will be.

Then I think Marciolonis was better than Sabonis also. But I admit this highly debatable. I know most would say Sabonis was the best on that USSR team, but Sarunas to me was the real guy of that team. He was the engine and the guy that made it go. And for some reason NBA fans always forget him. Strange. He was a very good player in the NBA even after injuries and after his prime was over. To me he was the key USSR player back then and not Sabonis. But this is highly debatable.


But I can't understand how people can say Sabonis was better than Galis, Drazen, Schmidt. It does not make sense. Those were the Jordan, Magic, Bird of Europe. So for me,

1. Galis
2. Schmidt
3. Petrovic
4. Marciolonis
5. Sabonis

That's how I would pick the top 5 best players in Europe in that era. I think you could certainly put Sabonis at 4, but I can't see how he was better than the first 3. The way NBA fans talk it's like those other players did not even exist then. It's really sad the way NBA fans are and Americans in general about basketball.

They just totally ignore players like Galis and Schmidt and it's ridiculous. They have no clue how incredible those players were.

[Grinder]

Let me spell it out for you. Dirk is better in the regular season in the NBA. Pau is better in the playoffs when it matters. No one is denying Dirk is a great player, very easily you argue top 5 or even better. But in terms of winning he does not have it.

Pau Gasol is a winner. Anyone saying differently does not follow his career. The guy takes the Lakers from being nothing to maybe winning multiple titles and he led his national team to winning the highest level tournament (world championship) and the EuroBasket, which is about as good as the Olympics in terms of level, maybe even better to be honest about it.

The only basketball fans in the world that think stats matter more than winning are the fan boys.


You're clearly a xenophobe.

Everyone knows you're a fake, give it up.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

C'mon.. only a fanboy or a Dirk hater would be so insane to claim that.

And another thing: Am I the only person who thinks that the OP was talking about the greatest European player to ever play in the NBA? Because if so, we shouldn't even take guys like Schmidt into consideration.

I think he meant in the NBA, but he also meant it that ONLY a player that had played in the NBA could be considered the best European player period.

The fact is, neither Pau, nor Dirk is the best European player ever.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

Not even close, Nowitzki led teams to Conference Finals and the NBA Finals, Gasol led teams to first round sweeps. Put Nowitzki on the Lakers and they are scary as shit.

This is nothing but a hypothetical. I can just as easily say that when Dirk starts getting pushed around by shooting guards and starts yelling at his teammates and cussing them out (which is what he does every year in the playoffs) that Kobe would go nuts and it would be a repeat of the 2004 Lakers.

[TROLL_HUNTER]

Ok let me put it in terms even someone like you can understand. How many years can you say Gasol has been a top 10 player in the league? Probably 1, maybe 2. Dirk on the other hand, has been on that list almost every year this decade. Not ripping on Gasol or anything, he's a great player, and its a testament to his accomplishments that he's even being mentioned in the same sentence as Dirk.



I do understand a lot , thanks for clarifying. my point is (and please read carefully) that to me, FANS OPINIONS / VOTES ARE NOT AN OBJECTIVE MEASUREMENT FOR GREATNESS. Popularity does not always equals to greatness I dont even say gasol is top ten. But hes been rather good ever since he came to the nba, dont even doubt it.

As a proof of what I am saying is that people had Boozer, Amare and the likes of him better than Gasol. Not only better but MUCH better. was it true, back then?? NO WAY, buddie. they were not. never. It was just that Gasol was not popular cos he played for a small franchise and hes skinny , white and euro. lot of prejudices over here. People's opinions are mostly biased and tend to believe that only the players they know well are the best ones. It kind of makes sense when you dont have a broad knowledge about the sport but once proven otherwise you have to admit having been wrong all along. it doesnt hurt, actually



Bty Lakas... I have read somewhere you said Rubio would be the greatest european ever...can you confirm these claims? :rolleyes:

[Lakas Fan Yo]

Bty Lakas... I have read somewhere you said Rubio would be the greatest european ever...can you confirm these claims? :rolleyes:

What? I never said that. Rubio is the most overrated European player of all time IMHO.

[Grinder]

I do understand a lot , thanks for clarifying. my point is (and please read carefully) that to me, FANS OPINIONS / VOTES ARE NOT AN OBJECTIVE MEASUREMENT FOR GREATNESS. Popularity does not always equals to greatness I dont even say gasol is top ten. But hes been rather good ever since he came to the nba, dont even doubt it.

As a proof of what I am saying is that people had Boozer, Amare and the likes of him better than Gasol. Not only better but MUCH better. was it true, back then?? NO WAY, buddie. they were not. never. It was just that Gasol was not popular cos he played for a small franchise and hes skinny , white and euro. lot of prejudices over here. People's opinions are mostly biased and tend to believe that only the players they know well are the best ones. It kind of makes sense when you dont have a broad knowledge about the sport but once proven otherwise you have to admit having been wrong all along. it doesnt hurt, actually



Bty Lakas... I have read somewhere you said Rubio would be the greatest european ever...can you confirm these claims? :rolleyes:
He did say that, in fact he guaranteed it and tried to bash anyone who disagreed with him.

John Wall is 100x the player Galis could have ever dreamed of being.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

He did say that, in fact he guaranteed it and tried to bash anyone who disagreed with him.

John Wall is 100x the player Galis could have ever dreamed of being.

Galis scored 50 against Jordan. Somehow I don't think John Wall could do that.

No I never said anything about Rubio being the greatest European player ever. The most overrated and over hyped European player ever? Of course.

As far as how good he is, honestly he's nothing more than an average player at this point.

[daprunus]

Not even close, Nowitzki led teams to Conference Finals and the NBA Finals, Gasol led teams to first round sweeps. Put Nowitzki on the Lakers and they are scary as shit.

Gasol leads his National team to the World and European Championship and a silver medal in the Olimpycs. And Nowitzki leads his National team to 1/4 finals.

If you dare to compare Mavs with Grizzlies, you must compare Spain with Germany too.

[ginobli2311]

its funny because i think both players are vastly under-rated. to the poster that said gasol wasn't doing anything in memphis....he led that team to an average of 48 wins over a three season stretch....making the playoffs each time. that is very impressive. just because he isn't flashy and he wasn't popular.....does not mean he wasn't great. that argument is just so pathetic......look at what kobe was doing in LA for that three year stretch with bad teams. Kobe had odom/butler for a year and missed the playoffs. LOL. such a double standard

Gasol has now just been given the chance to showcase his talents.....and he's easily a top 10 player in the league each of the last 3 years and is close to becoming a first ballot hall of famer.

having said the above....i sitll would take dirk overall. he's more capable of leading a team as the best player. love or hate dirk....he is going to go down as one of the 25 best players ever.....and deservedly so. 10 straight years of 50 wins without the help of a legit #2 option or good coaching.....remarkable.

[dn41]

Gasol leads his National team to the World and European Championship and a silver medal in the Olimpycs. And Nowitzki leads his National team to 1/4 finals.

If you dare to compare Mavs with Grizzlies, you must compare Spain with Germany too.

True, the Mavs (minus Dirk) where definately better than the Grizzlies (minus Pau) but
Germany (minus Dirk) <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Spain(minus Pau)
Grizzlies (minus Pau) << Mavs (minus Dirk)
so to compare that isn't really fair either.
I think what hurts Pau a little bit in this discussion is that he is 0/12 in the playoffs. Pau should have won at least one game in the playoffs. I'm sure Dirk would have.

And to the guy who said that Pau is better playoff performer
Dirk in the playoffs: 25.6/10.9/2.6
Pau in the playoffs: 18.5/9.7/3.2

[Lakas Fan Yo]

True, the Mavs (minus Dirk) where definately better than the Grizzlies (minus Pau) but
Germany (minus Dirk) <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Spain(minus Pau)
Grizzlies (minus Pau) << Mavs (minus Dirk)
so to compare that isn't really fair either.
I think what hurts Pau a little bit in this discussion is that he is 0/12 in the playoffs. Pau should have won at least one game in the playoffs. I'm sure Dirk would have.

And to the guy who said that Pau is better playoff performer
Dirk in the playoffs: 25.6/10.9/2.6
Pau in the playoffs: 18.5/9.7/3.2

Pau is by far better than Dirk in the playoffs. You can't be serious? The obsession that some NBA fans have with stats is absolutely ridiculous. Watch the games and actually count winning as something that matters.

[R.I.P.]

FIBA changed the rule because of all the complaints after Dirk won. They also changed it to where only 50% of the votes could go to NBA media members since NBA media guys had 80% of the vote when Dirk won.

And yes, the fact that the NBA gives the Finals MVP to a guy from the winning team should be a clue to you. FIBA was shocked when the NBA media gave Dirk that MVP and had to actually write a rule to prevent it from happening again.

That 2005 MVP was not considered legit in Europe. The other FIBA tournaments don't seem to care who gets MVP. But in Europe the idea is the SAME as in the NBA. The MVP comes from the WINNING team.

I'm not saying Dirk isn't a good player. He's obviously a 5-10 top player in the NBA. He's had the best NBA stats of any foreign player and one of the best even of any American player.

The guy is a great player overall and I'm not saying otherwise. But the bottom line is that this whole "Dirk carried a bunch of scrubs to titles in FIBA" and "Dirk dominates FIBA" is total BS.

I don't think Dirk would even make a top 10 list of best FIBA players in the last decade. Gasol definitely would. Anyone that thinks Dirk dominated in FIBA is either an idiot or a liar.

There is no reason for some people to lie just to try to prop Dirk up. If he was so "dominant" in FIBA as people claim he could have won a EuroBasket. He had several good players on his team.

And once again, he played against 12 "Euro scrubs" who according to NBA fans all suck anyway. You say Dirk and Kaman can't win anything, well then how the hell is he "dominant"?

I can't honestly imagine any serious basketball fan in Europe (outside Germany) that would say Gasol has not been better than Dirk in FIBA in the recent years. It's just a fact. Hell, several European players have been better in FIBA than Dirk in recent years. And never once did anyone ever use the word "dominant" to describe any of them.

Dude, you picked five guys that were in ****in 4th grade, when Dirk won his MVP awards at the Euros and Worlds to support your argument. Then you added a guy, who didn

[Floppy]

Pau is by far better than Dirk in the playoffs. You can't be serious? The obsession that some NBA fans have with stats is absolutely ridiculous. Watch the games and actually count winning as something that matters.
:roll:

Shoot yourself.

Seriously, you're a ****ing idiot.

[VishaltotheG]

Dirk is still better. At least he made the finals with no good 2nd options. How many playoff wins does Gasol have as the number one option?

[Hyman]

People dont seem to understand that basketball is not only about scoring points...

Nowitzki is the better offensive player. Gasol is the better defensive player. Overall I think they are players of a similar level, although maybe Pau is more complete and the one with more championships

[Bigsmoke]

People dont seem to understand that basketball is not only about scoring points...

Nowitzki is the better offensive player. Gasol is the better defensive player. Overall I think they are players of a similar level, although maybe Pau is more complete and the one with more championships

Gasol isnt really a Marcus Camby on defense either. Its a fact that Dirks offensive game overshadows Gasol's ability on both offense and defense.

[Hyman]

Gasol isnt really a Marcus Camby on defense either. Its a fact that Dirks offensive game overshadows Gasol's ability on both offense and defense.

Gasol is a much better defender than Marcus Camby

[Batz]

Gasol is a much better defender than Marcus Camby
:lol

[Bigsmoke]

Gasol is a much better defender than Marcus Camby

check out the Blazers stats after the Camby trade

[ginobli2311]

gasol is not a better defender than camby....but he is a much better defender than dirk.

dirk has clearly proven his is good enough to be the number 1 option on a title team in his career. gasol really hasn't had the same chance. i would take dirk overall because he is a much better scorer and it much better in the clutch.

Gasol is great....but he is a better fit as a 2nd option.....thats not a knock....he might be the 2nd best number 2 guy of all time behind pippen.....and the more i watch gasol....the more my opinion changes.

ugh....ok...here is the best way to put it...because i am confusing myself:

I'd rather have dirk as the number 1 option on my team because of his scoring and clutch play

but....

I'd rather have gasol as the number 2 option on my team because of his movement without the ball, passing, and defense

its a really tough call....but i'm going with dirk

[Foster5k]

Dirk is the king of choke. I'll take Gasol any day over Dirk.

Quoted my own post for truth. After watching game 1, of the NBA Finals, I stand by my words 100%.

[R.I.P.]

Quoted my own post for truth. After watching game 1, of the NBA Finals, I stand by my words 100%.

We don

[creepingdeath]

[QUOTE=R.I.P.]We don

[crisoner]

After game 1.....man Gasol is making a pretty good argument.

[creepingdeath]

Yeah, so Dirk had a pretty good argument at being the GOAT after game 1 against the Spurs. :hammerhead: Unearthed exaggeration ftw.

[Lebron23]

Gasol is a much better defender than Marcus Camby

What in the blue hell are you talking about? Camby is overrated defensively, but he is still a much better defender than Gasol.


On Topic

I'd take Dirk Nowitzki over Pau Gasol. People easily forget that Dirk was a former NBA MVP, and he led his team into the NBA Finals as the number 1 scoring option of his team

[Fatal9]

he might be the 2nd best number 2 guy of all time behind pippen
:roll:

[Hawker]

Plus 1.

Gasol is, unquestionably, the best European player ever in terms of playoff performances.

Gasol has far, far outplayed Dirk in the playoffs over his career.

But in the regular season, Dirk is better than Gasol.

Pau's been swept 3 times in his career.

[TROLL_HUNTER]

Pau's been swept 3 times in his career.


And Kobe didnt even make the playoffs with a similar roster being him the better player so what kind of stupid biased argument are you making with this? Does it prove anything? last time I checked teams were swept, not players.

[creepingdeath]

Hawker knows that. It's just that people have been claiming that Pau has been playing better in the playoffs than Dirk, which is just ridiculously false, and took his ring as an evidence. So he's basically flogging the same dead horse to prove how wrong such a line of argument is.

Still, Dirk would have had at least won one game single-handedly, even with a team as bad as Pau's former.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

[QUOTE=R.I.P.]Dude, you picked five guys that were in ****in 4th grade, when Dirk won his MVP awards at the Euros and Worlds to support your argument. Then you added a guy, who didn

[Lakas Fan Yo]

gasol is not a better defender than camby....but he is a much better defender than dirk.

dirk has clearly proven his is good enough to be the number 1 option on a title team in his career. gasol really hasn't had the same chance. i would take dirk overall because he is a much better scorer and it much better in the clutch.

Gasol is great....but he is a better fit as a 2nd option.....thats not a knock....he might be the 2nd best number 2 guy of all time behind pippen.....and the more i watch gasol....the more my opinion changes.

ugh....ok...here is the best way to put it...because i am confusing myself:

I'd rather have dirk as the number 1 option on my team because of his scoring and clutch play

but....

I'd rather have gasol as the number 2 option on my team because of his movement without the ball, passing, and defense

its a really tough call....but i'm going with dirk

Dirk has never been on an NBA title team.

[ginobli2311]

Dirk has never been on an NBA title team.

never said he was.....i said dirk has proven that he was good enough to win a title as the number 1option. give dirk a pierce or carmelo or paul or a deron williams over the last 7 years and he's got at least 1 title....probably 2

his play over the years has proven that

[Lakas Fan Yo]

never said he was.....i said dirk has proven that he was good enough to win a title as the number 1option. give dirk a pierce or carmelo or paul or a deron williams over the last 7 years and he's got at least 1 title....probably 2

his play over the years has proven that

He never won a title. So he has not proven what you claim.

[ginobli2311]

He never won a title. So he has not proven what you claim.

agree to disagree.....i'm don't want to debate this again. dirk has had enormous success in the playoffs with far less help than the other great teams of the last decade and has never played with a top 15 player in the league at any point

logic tells me that if dirk could come as close as he did....he would have won one with legit help

regardless.....he's certainly proved more as a number 1 option than gasol

[#1SportsFan86]

:lol

:applause:

Laker fans are funny as hell...Pau who NEVER won a playoff game before he went to the Lakers in now better than Dirk.....Laker fans are funny.:lol

[Lakas Fan Yo]

In Europe the majority of people definitely consider Pau better. Of course NBA fans would say otherwise because Dirk has "stats". NBA fans level of basketball knowledge = stats.

Pathetic.

[ginobli2311]

:lol

:applause:

Laker fans are funny as hell...Pau who NEVER won a playoff game before he went to the Lakers in now better than Dirk.....Laker fans are funny.:lol

i really don't like statements like that because just getting to the playoffs and winning close to 50 three years in a row is very impressive in memphis

but i do think its pretty clear that dirk is the better number 1 option.....i mean.....ten straight seasons of 50 or more wins without a top 15 player in the league at any time......pretty remarkable

they are just different players........dirk is a better number 1....gasol is a better fit for a 2nd option

not sure who is the better player honestly.....i just would take Dirk

[Hawker]

In Europe the majority of people definitely consider Pau better. Of course NBA fans would say otherwise because Dirk has "stats". NBA fans level of basketball knowledge = stats.

Pathetic.

Good thing Europe doesn't matter.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

i really don't like statements like that because just getting to the playoffs and winning close to 50 three years in a row is very impressive in memphis

but i do think its pretty clear that dirk is the better number 1 option.....i mean.....ten straight seasons of 50 or more wins without a top 15 player in the league at any time......pretty remarkable

they are just different players........dirk is a better number 1....gasol is a better fit for a 2nd option

not sure who is the better player honestly.....i just would take Dirk


All this number one option stuff is just funny. This is the extent of basketball knowledge in the US. Stats and number one option. Why is it that in the country where basketball is the biggest that the fans have by far the least knowledge about the game?

Number one option.........

[Lakas Fan Yo]

Good thing Europe doesn't matter.

Well considering the Euroleague final had 13.9 million viewers locally and the NBA finals 14.1 million locally and NBA fans are bragging about how huge the audience was and it's Lakers-Celtics no less.........

it appears that the NBA doesn't matter either.

[ginobli2311]

All this number one option stuff is just funny. This is the extent of basketball knowledge in the US. Stats and number one option. Why is it that in the country where basketball is the biggest that the fans have by far the least knowledge about the game?

Number one option.........

by number 1 option....i mean the guy that steps up late in games and makes big plays. dirk has proven he can do this.....gasol has not

you seem to not understand how important late game situations actually are dude.....and gasol is not a very good player creating or making big plays down the stretch

lol at this joker........yea....lets turn this into a usa vs europe thing

[Lakas Fan Yo]

by number 1 option....i mean the guy that steps up late in games and makes big plays. dirk has proven he can do this.....gasol has not

you seem to not understand how important late game situations actually are dude.....and gasol is not a very good player creating or making big plays down the stretch

lol at this joker........yea....lets turn this into a usa vs europe thing

You lack basic basketball knowledge. Dirk is a regular season number one and a part time number one in the playoffs. If you put an athletic defender on him he becomes a number 3 option.

So basically your argument consists of "Dirk has good stats in the regular season and can sometimes lead a team for a certain playoff series".

No one with serious basketball knowledge thinks Dirk is better than Pau. That isn't even debatable to be honest.

[RazorBaLade]

i really don't like statements like that because just getting to the playoffs and winning close to 50 three years in a row is very impressive in memphis

but i do think its pretty clear that dirk is the better number 1 option.....i mean.....ten straight seasons of 50 or more wins without a top 15 player in the league at any time......pretty remarkable

they are just different players........dirk is a better number 1....gasol is a better fit for a 2nd option

not sure who is the better player honestly.....i just would take Dirk

but he had a t5 bench and a bunch of good players , wasnt howard an allstar once?

[dn41]

@Lakas Fan Yo: You seem very self assured for someone who has no clue what he's talking about. Can you please tell us again why you posted that list of german players earlier in this thread? I missed your response to that! Was it an attempt to lie or do you just don't know what you are talking about? Either way your credibility is zero.

Dirk is better than Pau in the regular season and the playoffs.

btw, can you prove that the majority of people in europe consider Pau to better better than Dirk, because i don't think that's the case.

[dn41]

but he had a t5 bench and a bunch of good players , wasnt howard an allstar once?

Yes as a reserve.

Dirk definately had good players but in my opinion he never had a team talented enough to win a championship (but hey maybe i'm biased:D).
Diop, Dirk, Howard, Griffin, Harris. That was the staring lineup vs Miami in the finals. In what universe is that a championship caliber team? That would have been one of the sorriest teams to ever win the title.

[artest 93]

You lack basic basketball knowledge. Dirk is a regular season number one and a part time number one in the playoffs. If you put an athletic defender on him he becomes a number 3 option.

So basically your argument consists of "Dirk has good stats in the regular season and can sometimes lead a team for a certain playoff series".

No one with serious basketball knowledge thinks Dirk is better than Pau. That isn't even debatable to be honest.

LMFAO. Another Laker troll added to the ignore list. Never have I been so entertained by stupidity at 3 AM in the morning.

Stupid troll joined ISH in 2008, probably claiming to be a life-long Laker fan and acting like he knows basketball more than anyone else. Dude is delusional and retarded, at the very least.

I don't use emoticons much, but :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Lakas Fan Yo]

LMFAO. Another Laker troll added to the ignore list. Never have I been so entertained by stupidity at 3 AM in the morning.

Stupid troll joined ISH in 2008, probably claiming to be a life-long Laker fan and acting like he knows basketball more than anyone else. Dude is delusional and retarded, at the very least.

I don't use emoticons much, but :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


Dirk is a top 5 player in the regular season. So was McGrady. It's a different story in the playoffs. People that value STATS over winning are not even worthy to be allowed on this forum.

[creepingdeath]

You are always the first one to insult people, calling them ignorant and stupid. Well, why don't you bring any arguments instead of randomly ranting? Why did you list German basketball athletes in the discussion, when none of them has ever played with Dirk? Why do you constantly tell people to watch games not stats but seemingly refuse to do so yourself?

Dirk has been great in the playoffs, he always improves his game a notch in comparison with the regular season. He has had ONE, ONE bad (bad for a franchise player and MVP) playoff series where he choked badly. But since then, he has always stepped up big time and improved even more. Just look at what he does when the game's at stake, or even worse, the whole series. He's amazing when everything's on the line, and the stats are not there as an end to itself but to serve as an evidence for that. And anyone with a shred of BB IQ acknowledges that. Pau and Dirk are not in the same tier, they're just not. Even Lakers fans in this thread have admitted that.

[R.I.P.]

In Europe the majority of people definitely consider Pau better.

Sure. :oldlol:

[Balla_Status]

bump

[Ikill]

bump
Why tho it seemed like everyone was saying Dirk was much better but i only read the first three pages.

[Batz]

I would take Pau over him anyday...
Yeah this post never happened. I swear.

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Well tbh, even before this title, I still think that Dirk would be the better franchise player, while Gasol is a better complementary piece.

Basically doing what centers do, Gasol does that pretty well when he's asked to.
Dirk won't fit that void, but Dirk is like a go to guy, when you need a bucket you go to him. Traditional Bigs aren't like that.

[crosso√er]

Gasol was as good/better when he won two titles; Dirk is now much better when he won his ring. That's how ISH works, why even bump this thread?

Every players gets scrutinized when they perform poorly and get praised (unless you're Kobe) when they achieve great things. That's how ISH works; most people concentrate on the short run rather then the big picture.

Every idiot has Dirk as a top three player all the sudden and some even consider him #1; Kobe wins a title, he's got "Pau" or he got "lucky".

This forum is tiresome that's why I mostly go to OTC these days.

[adri41]

Gasol was as good/better when he won two titles; Dirk is now much better when he won his ring. That's how ISH works, why even bump this thread?

Every players gets scrutinized when they perform poorly and get praised (unless you're Kobe) when they achieve great things. That's how ISH works; most people concentrate on the short run rather then the big picture.

Every idiot has Dirk as a top three player all the sudden and some even consider him #1; Kobe wins a title, he's got "Pau" or he got "lucky".

This forum is tiresome that's why I mostly go to OTC these days.

The thread got bumped because ranking Pau ahead of Dirk was a case of incredible stupidity, not slight overrating because of his titles.

[knickswin]

Euroleague is the most aggressive troll on ISH. How many threads have been ruined by his nonsense?

[DMAVS41]

The thread got bumped because ranking Pau ahead of Dirk was a case of incredible stupidity, not slight overrating because of his titles.

I don't think anyone ranked Pau over Dirk all time as a player. They might have ranked his career over Dirk....but not the player.

2009 and 2010 Pau was very very good. A lot better than most people give him credit for.....for the obvious Kobe agenda reasons.

There is nothing wrong with saying Pau in 2010 was as good as Dirk or better. He was great in the playoffs.

All time? No, Pau is not on the Dirk level. Especially now.

[crosso√er]

The thread got bumped because ranking Pau ahead of Dirk was a case of incredible stupidity, not slight overrating because of his titles.

Pau (on this very forum) was highly regarded because of the success he had with the Lakers; look at the date this thread was created.

Can you not comprehend my point?
People overrate players on this forum based on the success/hot streak they are currently on; which is like you said, incredibly stupid.

In 2009/2010; I'm sure more then enough people considered Pau better then Dirk, were they stupid? Probably because they weren't looking at the big picture and were short-sighted by Pau's most recent success.

Get the drift? Your reply was totally useless.

[adri41]

Pau (on this very forum) was highly regarded because of the success he had with the Lakers; look at the date this thread was created.

Can you not comprehend my point?
People overrate players on this forum based on the success/hot streak they are currently on; which is like you said, incredibly stupid.

In 2009/2010; I'm sure more then enough people considered Pau better then Dirk, were they stupid? Probably because they weren't looking at the big picture and were short-sighted by Pau's most recent success.

Get the drift? Your reply was totally useless.

Yes, I do get what you're saying. My point is that Dirk, while overrated now, was severely underrated before. I know it wasn't exactly what you (or anyone) was saying, but my point is that it's not just "short sighted" now to give Dirk props. He legitimately deserves them. I guess I'm just saying this isn't like a player on a hot streak playing for a contract....Dirk has been pretty consistently amazing for years, especially in the playoffs, but his TEAMS failures made people unable to see that.

[DMAVS41]

Yes, I do get what you're saying. My point is that Dirk, while overrated now, was severely underrated before. I know it wasn't exactly what you (or anyone) was saying, but my point is that it's not just "short sighted" now to give Dirk props. He legitimately deserves them. I guess I'm just saying this isn't like a player on a hot streak playing for a contract....Dirk has been pretty consistently amazing for years, especially in the playoffs, but his TEAMS failures made people unable to see that.

Yes, but Pau was also severely under-rated before the Lakers....or, he wasn't even rated at all.

For those who watched him play, he has been very very good since day 1. Those titles just validated that greatness.

And his play in 09 and 10 in the playoffs was deserving of very high praise.

20/11/4 54/77 with 60% TS 24.0 PER

He stepped up in many key moments and played a beastly game 7 of the finals.

Lets not use his poor 10 games this year in the playoffs as the barometer of what kind of player he's been.

[winwin]

Originally Posted by ginobli2311
he might be the 2nd best number 2 guy of all time behind pippen

:lol

[magnax1]

I don't think anyone ranked Pau over Dirk all time as a player. They might have ranked his career over Dirk....but not the player.

2009 and 2010 Pau was very very good. A lot better than most people give him credit for.....for the obvious Kobe agenda reasons.

There is nothing wrong with saying Pau in 2010 was as good as Dirk or better. He was great in the playoffs.

All time? No, Pau is not on the Dirk level. Especially now.
This just makes no sense. You're the same guy who says Dirk is top 15 right? It's not like Dirk had an off season in 10. He played just as well last year in the playoffs and regular season as this year, maybe even slightly better. There is so much wrong with saying Pau was better then Dirk. You've even called Dirk the best player in the league! This post makes no ****ing sense damnit!
ISH really sucks ass tonight.

[DMAVS41]

This just makes no sense. You're the same guy who says Dirk is top 15 right? It's not like Dirk had an off season in 10. He played just as well last year in the playoffs and regular season as this year, maybe even slightly better. There is so much wrong with saying Pau was better then Dirk. You've even called Dirk the best player in the league! This post makes no ****ing sense damnit!
ISH really sucks ass tonight.

Yes it does. Have you seen the way people rank here? Titles matter.

Pau was great last year. 20/11/4 and his team won a title. Meanwhile, Dirk's team lost in the 1st round.

I argued and argued when I first came here that the way people rank players here is flawed, but nobody agreed.

So I adopted the line of thinking that people do here....and the way people rank players here, Pau absolutely has a case against Dirk last year.

All time or as a player? Nope....but for an individual season? Yes.

[magnax1]

Yes it does. Have you seen the way people rank here? Titles matter.

Pau was great last year. 20/11/4 and his team won a title. Meanwhile, Dirk's team lost in the 1st round.

I argued and argued when I first came here that the way people rank players here is flawed, but nobody agreed.

So I adopted the line of thinking that people do here....and the way people rank players here, Pau absolutely has a case against Dirk last year.

All time or as a player? Nope....but for an individual season? Yes.
Adopting a line of thinking similar to idiocy only makes you the same as the idiots.
And by the way, it still doesn't make a drop of logical sense. If Dirk is the best player in the league this year like you said (which he is not, and not terribly close to) Pau just doesn't have a case.

[kentatm]

You lack basic basketball knowledge. Dirk is a regular season number one and a part time number one in the playoffs. If you put an athletic defender on him he becomes a number 3 option.

So basically your argument consists of "Dirk has good stats in the regular season and can sometimes lead a team for a certain playoff series".

No one with serious basketball knowledge thinks Dirk is better than Pau. That isn't even debatable to be honest.

:roll:


NoLinksEuroLeague fails again!

[greensborohill]

Pau is by far better than Dirk in the playoffs. You can't be serious? The obsession that some NBA fans have with stats is absolutely ridiculous. Watch the games and actually count winning as something that matters.

yes, let's count winning, and let's count MVP's, and let's count Finals MVP's, and 20,000 points, and all-time top 20 in playoff points. Lets start counting, shall we?

[DMAVS41]

Adopting a line of thinking similar to idiocy only makes you the same as the idiots.
And by the way, it still doesn't make a drop of logical sense. If Dirk is the best player in the league this year like you said (which he is not, and not terribly close to) Pau just doesn't have a case.

What?

So you don't think a lesser player can outplay a greater player in a 1 year sample size?

That makes absolutely no logical sense at all. So every year we should solely talk about what guys have done for their careers? Honestly, I don't understand how you could possibly be for that.

I said Dirk has an argument for best player in the game for the year he had last year. Led the Mavs to 57 wins even though he missed 9 games and the team fell apart without him. Led the Mavs to the title beating so many great teams and players and outplaying pretty much everyone he faced (Wade).

You don't think there are legit arguments that Dirk was better last year than Kobe or Lebron or Wade?

What?

Please rank your 5 best players overall for the past 2011 season.

[greensborohill]

Adopting a line of thinking similar to idiocy only makes you the same as the idiots.
And by the way, it still doesn't make a drop of logical sense. If Dirk is the best player in the league this year like you said (which he is not, and not terribly close to) Pau just doesn't have a case.

Shut your gaping ******. Call me when Stockton & Malone make it off the "Best Player to Never Win It All" list. . . oh wait. . . . they can't!

[LA_Showtime]

Gasol has never been better than Dirk. Despite his transformation, he still tends to play soft and his 2 championship runs have become extremely overrated. He should get all the credit in the world for coming up big against Dwight Howard and outplaying KG, though.

[shadow]

Dirk is Kobe, Pau is more of a Jason Terry.

[magnax1]

So you don't think a lesser player can outplay a greater player in a 1 year sample size?
No, but Dirk was not at all worse in 10, then he was this year. He played almost exactly the same in both the post and regular season. In fact, that's true of almost every year since 06 (though his playoffs in 09 might've been ever so slightly better then the rest) And Pau, is a borderline all star player, he is a terrible individual defender, can be bullied into taking poor shots in the playoffs, and for most of his career was a mediocre rebounder (though I'll admit he has improved since the scoring was taken off after moving to LA) He is usually efficient, and a good rim protector and passer, but what he does pales in comparison to Dirk's ability to consistently put up 25-30 points very efficiently considering the large gaps in parts of his game, even though Dirk doesn't do much else.


That makes absolutely no logical sense at all. So every year we should solely talk about what guys have done for their careers? Honestly, I don't understand how you could possibly be for that.
I never said anything like that.


I said Dirk has an argument for best player in the game for the year he had last year. Led the Mavs to 57 wins even though he missed 9 games and the team fell apart without him. Led the Mavs to the title beating so many great teams and players and outplaying pretty much everyone he faced (Wade).

And he played exactly the same way for nearly 5 years, so how exactly has Gasol ever been even close to him?

You don't think there are legit arguments that Dirk was better last year than Kobe or Lebron or Wade?
He was considerably better then Kobe this last year as Kobe dropped off quite a bit. Lebron? No. Wade? Hell no.

[DMAVS41]

No, but Dirk was not at all worse in 10, then he was this year. He played almost exactly the same in both the post and regular season. In fact, that's true of almost every year since 06 (though his playoffs in 09 might've been ever so slightly better then the rest) And Pau, is a borderline all star player, he is a terrible individual defender, can be bullied into taking poor shots in the playoffs, and for most of his career was a mediocre rebounder (though I'll admit he has improved since the scoring was taken off after moving to LA) He is usually efficient, and a good rim protector and passer, but what he does pales in comparison to Dirk's ability to consistently put up 25-30 points very efficiently considering the large gaps in parts of his game, even though Dirk doesn't do much else.


I never said anything like that.


And he played exactly the same way for nearly 5 years, so how exactly has Gasol ever been even close to him?

He was considerably better then Kobe this last year as Kobe dropped off quite a bit. Lebron? No. Wade? Hell no.

We just disagree. I don't see how you can say Lebron deserves to be ranked as a better player than Dirk last year. Dirk led a worse team to only 1 less loss....and did so playing in the better conference.

Dirk also absolutely destroyed Lebron head to head on the biggest stage in the basketball world.

Its not about Dirk being worse in 2010. I totally agree he was just as good. Its about Pau playing great.

We just have differing views. I absolutely think Pau played well enough overall in 2010 to to get the kind of props he got and absolutely think Dirk played well enough in 2011 to get legit "best player in game that year" conversation.

The idea that Wade is on another level than Dirk in 2011 is just silly. Sorry.

[Raider007]

We just disagree.


You disagree with just about everyone in here 26+ times a day.

http://gifsforum.com/images/gif/lol/grand/jack_nicholson_lol_gif.gif

[gasolina]

We just disagree.
I think he meant he and his two brothers
:banana:

[magnax1]

We just disagree. I don't see how you can say Lebron deserves to be ranked as a better player than Dirk last year.
That's an over reaction to one series, and I've always said that Lebron's inconsistent scoring in the playoffs against good D always made him way worse then his stats would suggest, but even then it's one series, and Dirk just can't play anywhere near the level Lebron played in the conference and conference semifinals.

Dirk led a worse team to only 1 less loss....and did so playing in the better conference.
That's a massive over simplification. Karl Malone led a less talented team to the samer record as Michael Jordan, and in a better conference. Sooooo.... Kar Malone>Jordan in 98, right?
:lol


Its not about Dirk being worse in 2010. I totally agree he was just as good. Its about Pau playing great.

We just have differing views. I absolutely think Pau played well enough overall in 2010 to to get the kind of props he got and absolutely think Dirk played well enough in 2011 to get legit "best player in game that year" conversation.
You're so terribly ****ing inconsistent. Pau Gasol was better then Dirk in his prime, but KG and Dirk are still really really close? That just makes no sense. So you think Pau deserves best player in the game consideration in 2010 along with Dirk? I mean, you already said Dirk wasn't any worse in 2010, it's just that Pau was better. I don't get where you're coming from in any way. You just think Pau, KG and Dirk are all in the same tier in their primes?


The idea that Wade is on another level than Dirk in 2011 is just silly. Sorry.
Using your own logic, you can't see how Dirk deserves to be ranked as a better player then Wade when he absolutely destroyed Dirk on the biggest stage. Right?

[DMAVS41]

That's an over reaction to one series, and I've always said that Lebron's inconsistent scoring in the playoffs against good D always made him way worse then his stats would suggest, but even then it's one series, and Dirk just can't play anywhere near the level Lebron played in the conference and conference semifinals.

That's a massive over simplification. Karl Malone led a less talented team to the samer record as Michael Jordan, and in a better conference. Sooooo.... Kar Malone>Jordan in 98, right?
:lol


You're so terribly ****ing inconsistent. Pau Gasol was better then Dirk in his prime, but KG and Dirk are still really really close? That just makes no sense. So you think Pau deserves best player in the game consideration in 2010 along with Dirk? I mean, you already said Dirk wasn't any worse in 2010, it's just that Pau was better. I don't get where you're coming from in any way. You just think Pau, KG and Dirk are all in the same tier in their primes?


Using your own logic, you can't see how Dirk deserves to be ranked as a better player then Wade when he absolutely destroyed Dirk on the biggest stage. Right?

What?

A players prime lasts more than 1 year. The idea that a lesser play can't have a better year than a greater player is such backwards logic. I can't even begin to comprehend how you think this.

Wade did not destroy Dirk on the biggest stage this year. I seem to remember Wade coming up small in crunch time in a few games.

And lets not ignore that Bulls series.

So Dirk can never play as good as Lebron did against the Bulls? Sorry, I don't agree with that at all. I think Dirk's play against the Thunder was just as good overall.


You probably rank Dr. J over Dirk. You really think 2011 Dirk wasn't better than a lot of the years of prime Dr. J?

If you don't rank Dr. J over Dirk all time, pick someone in that 10 to 15 range.

Like Hondo for example. You really think every version of Hondo in his prime was better than 06 Dirk and 11 Dirk?

LOL


to the bold. if malone had led that team to the title over MJ and outplayed him? Yea, i'd take issue with somebody ranking 98 Mj over 98 Malone. which is exactly what you are doing with Lebron by the way.

[tpols]

You're so terribly ****ing inconsistent. Pau Gasol was better then Dirk in his prime, but KG and Dirk are still really really close? That just makes no sense. So you think Pau deserves best player in the game consideration in 2010 along with Dirk? I mean, you already said Dirk wasn't any worse in 2010, it's just that Pau was better. I don't get where you're coming from in any way. You just think Pau, KG and Dirk are all in the same tier in their primes?


He also said that Pippen was a better player than Gasol in one of the recent Jordan-Kobe threads:

Do you realize that Pippen is a better player than Gasol? Please answer.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=229522&page=4

So if Pau Gasol has been on Dirk's level, than, logically, Pippen would have to be better than Dirk since DMAVs just said Pippen was better than Gasol[and if equal to Dirk better than him as well]..

:oldlol:

Does anyone take this clown seriously?

[tpols]

Oh wait guys.. I forgot. That might have been one of his many brothers that said that:oldlol: .

[DMAVS41]

He also said that Pippen was a better player than Gasol in one of the recent Jordan-Kobe threads:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=229522&page=4

So if Pau Gasol has been on Dirk's level, than, logically, Pippen would have to be better than Dirk since DMAVs just said Pippen was better than Gasol[and if equal to Dirk better than him as well]..

:oldlol:

Does anyone take this clown seriously?

You keep jumping from single years to all time.

That is the difference. I have no problem with someone saying certain versions of Pippen were better than certain versions of Dirk. Its simply true.

All time though? I don't think so.

[DMAVS41]

Oh wait guys.. I forgot. That might have been one of his many brothers that said that:oldlol: .

Please respond:

TPOLS:

"Michael Jordan would have no chance to make 3 consecutive finals between 08 and 10 replacing Kobe"

Do you still feel this way Tpols?

[tpols]

Please respond:

TPOLS:

"Michael Jordan would have no chance to make 3 consecutive finals between 08 and 10 replacing Kobe"

Do you still feel this way Tpols?
I already stated this and it is 100% fact.:oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

I already stated this and it is 100% fact.:oldlol:

:eek:

[magnax1]

A players prime lasts more than 1 year. The idea that a lesser play can't have a better year than a greater player is such backwards logic. I can't even begin to comprehend how you think this.
Really, what the hell are you even talking about? This is the second time you said this, and I haven't said anything remotely similar to this.
I said that Dirk played just as well in 10 as in 11, and you agreed, and you also said that Dirk was the best player in 11. So if Pau was better then Dirk in 10, wouldn't he have to be the best player, or at least close to it?

Wade did not destroy Dirk on the biggest stage this year. I seem to remember Wade coming up small in crunch time in a few games.
Really 27-7-5 on 55% vs 26-10-2 on 41% isn't a pretty massive gap? Wade was pretty obviously by far the best player in that series. The biggest reason they lost so badly was that he wasn't very good after the injury. They still might've lost, but it would've been 50/50 just like games 2 3 and 4.


So Dirk can never play as good as Lebron did against the Bulls? Sorry, I don't agree with that at all. I think Dirk's play against the Thunder was just as good overall.
We'll you're just crazy then. First off, statistically, they were really close, despite the fact that the Bulls were the best D in the league.
Secondly, every little bit of intangible, Lebron wins. Did an amazing job closing out those games, just as good as Dirk did, he completely stopped Derrick Rose every time he guarded him, basically played like DPOTY, and was an amazing play maker. If that series wasn't the best of his career, it was really close.


You probably rank Dr. J over Dirk. You really think 2011 Dirk wasn't better than a lot of the years of prime Dr. J?
Lol, where is Dr. J comparison coming from? Really, I've only seen 2 games of Dr. J in the ABA in his prime, so it's not a fair comparison, but Dr. J in the 77 playoffs, especially in the finals when he took a massive shit on the Blazers was better then Dirk. 78-81, he was pretty close to all of Dirk's prime seasons. After that, he dropped off and Dirk's prime is better, but then you really aren't comparing prime to prime, and on top of that everyone who actually watched Dr. J live said he was better in the ABA.




Like Hondo for example. You really think every version of Hondo in his prime was better than 06 Dirk and 11 Dirk?
I don't know. The more of Havlicek I watch, the less I like him as a player. That's kind of a separate issue though. A guy like Robinson though? Pretty much every year from 90-96, he was better then Dirk in his prime.


to the bold. if malone had led that team to the title over MJ and outplayed him? Yea, i'd take issue with somebody ranking 98 Mj over 98 Malone. which is exactly what you are doing with Lebron by the way.
Nah, I'm just objectively looking at who has a larger impact, and every part of the season, but one series, Lebron was better then Dirk.