Can we be honest concerning Kobe vs LeBron?

[Courtside View]

So after the Boston series, LeBron took all kinds of heat. He choked, he's overrated, blah blah blah. Now I know in creating a thread like this, it's going to attract the kind of people that are are programmed to defend Bryant no matter what. I'm just asking for those of you who are knowledgeable, non homer/hero worshipper types to be honest, and take into account situational differences vs hyperbole.

Let's look at how each player has fared vs the Celtics:

LeBron - 29ppg, 44%fg 7.2 asst, 9.3rb, 2.17spg, 4.5 TO
Kobe - (through game 4, 4 games stats aren't up yet)
26ppg, 39%fg, 5.3asst,6.3rpg, 2.3spg, 3.3 TO
Today's game - 33 points, 10-22fg, 2asst, 6rb. 7TO

Is there really a comparison between what kind of support the two have had vs. each other? In LA, you've got the dominant front line, and several players that have given huge contributions at times which put LA over the top, even when Bryant was struggling (especially in crunch time). Artest has, Pau has, Bynum, Fisher has been hugely clutch. Even when Odom isn't performing great, he still has that length to go along with Bynum and Pau. And I would take Odom over anything on Cleveland. Please tell me WHO on Cleveland came anywhere near matching that kind of support on a consistent basis? Mo? Jamison? Shaq?

Like I said, I know this will devolve into the usual hero worshipping crap, but my point isn't really to defend LeBron (though I thought he got unreasonably criticized for his play), it's to point out how so many are either willing to ignore these types of things in order to gloss over their favorite players' struggles, or unable to put things into proper context. Based on their respective teams, and the fact that Kobe has far more support than Bron has which is a FACT that I don't see how anyone can deny, Kobe has not blow Bron away in his play vs. Boston thus far. Further, Bryant's 4th quarter play has also been erratic in this series. Hardly the stuff of "See! He's soooooooo much more clutch than LeBron"

Therefore, how can anyone, with a shred of reason, conclude that Bron disgraced himself and should no longer be ranked as highly and that his Boston series proved that he's not on Bryant's level? And I'm not even saying Bron deserved no criticism for his Boston series, but come on. All things considered, if Cleveland had players that were able to give the contributions that so many key Lakers have, with as much consistency, does anyone think it wouldn't have been a different series with Bron giving the exact same production?

[robertshaw_1]

i will be honest

boston 4 cleveland 2

boston 2 lakers 2 (so far)

[Amil23]

So after the Boston series, LeBron took all kinds of heat. He choked, he's overrated, blah blah blah. Now I know in creating a thread like this, it's going to attract the kind of people that are are programmed to defend Bryant no matter what. I'm just asking for those of you who are knowledgeable, non homer/hero worshipper types to be honest, and take into account situational differences vs hyperbole.

Let's look at how each player has fared vs the Celtics:

LeBron - 29ppg, 44%fg 7.2 asst, 9.3rb, 2.17spg, 4.5 TO
Kobe - (through game 4, 4 games stats aren't up yet)
26ppg, 39%fg, 5.3asst,6.3rpg, 2.3spg, 3.3 TO
Today's game - 33 points, 10-22fg, 2asst, 6rb. 7TO

Is there really a comparison between what kind of support the two have had vs. each other? In LA, you've got the dominant front line, and several players that have given huge contributions at times which put LA over the top, even when Bryant was struggling (especially in crunch time). Artest has, Pau has, Bynum, Fisher has been hugely clutch. Even when Odom isn't performing great, he still has that length to go along with Bynum and Pau. And I would take Odom over anything on Cleveland. Please tell me WHO on Cleveland cameanywhere near matching that kind of support on a consistant basis? Mo? Jamison? Shaq?

Like I said, I know this will devolve into the usual hero worshipping crap, but my point isn't really to defend LeBron (though I thought he got unreasonably criticized for his play), it's to point out how so many are either willing to ignore these types of things in order to gloss over their favorite players' struggles, or unable to put things into proper context. Based on their respective teams, and the fact that Kobe has far more support than Bron has which is a FACT that I don't see how anyone can deny, Kobe has not blow Bron away in his play vs. Boston thus far. Further, Bryant's 4th quarter play has also been erratic in this series. Hardly the stuff of "See! He's soooooooo much more clutch than LeBron"

Therefore, how can anyone, with a shred of reason, conclude that Bron disgraced himself and should no longer be ranked as highly and that his Boston series proved that he's not on Bryant's level? And I'm not even saying Bron deserved no criticism for his Boston series, but come on. All things considered, if Cleveland had players that were able to give the contributions that so many key Lakers have, with as much consistency, does anyone think it wouldn't have been a different series with Bron giving the exact same production?
:applause: great post I would like the answer as well

[tumer_t]

who is lebron beside kobe?
kobe's only matchup = jordan

[catch24]

No one is really talking about his stat lines. Rather his demeanor and attitude or lack there of in Game 5.

LeBron > Kobe, btw.

[PP34Deuce]

Kobes problem is he gets caught up in the young games. Half the bricks he throws up are from Ray Allen talking trash to him. I do not understand it but Ray really bothers him mentally than current players.

Kobe is still a better player than Lebron though. He will keep shooting while Lebron has "KG" moments

[bl2k8]

LeBron quit when it was 2-2 against Boston. Kobe's gonna give it his all on Sunday.

[ginobli2311]

So after the Boston series, LeBron took all kinds of heat. He choked, he's overrated, blah blah blah. Now I know in creating a thread like this, it's going to attract the kind of people that are are programmed to defend Bryant no matter what. I'm just asking for those of you who are knowledgeable, non homer/hero worshipper types to be honest, and take into account situational differences vs hyperbole.

Let's look at how each player has fared vs the Celtics:

LeBron - 29ppg, 44%fg 7.2 asst, 9.3rb, 2.17spg, 4.5 TO
Kobe - (through game 4, 4 games stats aren't up yet)
26ppg, 39%fg, 5.3asst,6.3rpg, 2.3spg, 3.3 TO
Today's game - 33 points, 10-22fg, 2asst, 6rb. 7TO

Is there really a comparison between what kind of support the two have had vs. each other? In LA, you've got the dominant front line, and several players that have given huge contributions at times which put LA over the top, even when Bryant was struggling (especially in crunch time). Artest has, Pau has, Bynum, Fisher has been hugely clutch. Even when Odom isn't performing great, he still has that length to go along with Bynum and Pau. And I would take Odom over anything on Cleveland. Please tell me WHO on Cleveland came anywhere near matching that kind of support on a consistent basis? Mo? Jamison? Shaq?

Like I said, I know this will devolve into the usual hero worshipping crap, but my point isn't really to defend LeBron (though I thought he got unreasonably criticized for his play), it's to point out how so many are either willing to ignore these types of things in order to gloss over their favorite players' struggles, or unable to put things into proper context. Based on their respective teams, and the fact that Kobe has far more support than Bron has which is a FACT that I don't see how anyone can deny, Kobe has not blow Bron away in his play vs. Boston thus far. Further, Bryant's 4th quarter play has also been erratic in this series. Hardly the stuff of "See! He's soooooooo much more clutch than LeBron"

Therefore, how can anyone, with a shred of reason, conclude that Bron disgraced himself and should no longer be ranked as highly and that his Boston series proved that he's not on Bryant's level? And I'm not even saying Bron deserved no criticism for his Boston series, but come on. All things considered, if Cleveland had players that were able to give the contributions that so many key Lakers have, with as much consistency, does anyone think it wouldn't have been a different series with Bron giving the exact same production?

i totally agree. mainly not because of the numbers but because of kobe's dreadful 4th qtr play in the last 3 games with the games in doubt. if not for fisher's heroics and ray allen's ice cold shooting on wide open jumpers the lakers should be down 3-1. lol. when was the last time a cavs player stepped up huge at the end of a close game?

kobe has been much much much worse overall than lebron was against the celtics. factor in lebron's defense and his ability to shutdown pierce and its really not close.

but the media and fans have their agenda and no matter what happens kobe will come out of this series looking much better than lebron.

[Micku]

LeBron played better than Kobe against the Celtics, but the series is not over yet. LeBron had a very bad game in game 5 that it seemed like he gave up on the series. Kobe does not seem that way yet, but you can see the frustration with Kobe sometimes. Especially in game 3 where he wanted to shoot the ball a lot.

[K.Koscik]

No one said anything about Lebrons stats. All the criticism pointed to the fact he seemingly game up on the series.

Celtics defense is great, of course stats will be deflated. Anyone who thought Kobe would keep up 30/6/6 on 50% was delusional. He's my favorite player of all time and even I didn't think that

[Courtside View]

Kobes problem is he gets caught up in the young games. Half the bricks he throws up are from Ray Allen talking trash to him. I do not understand it but Ray really bothers him mentally than current players.

Kobe is still a better player than Lebron though. He will keep shooting while Lebron has "KG" moments

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. So because he'll keep shooting, he's better? So his 4th quarter play, with the TOs, etc. are OK?

The difference between their respective teams is simple. LeBron pretty much had to play GREAT every game or Cleveland was going to lose. Kobe can have off games, and the Lakers have enough talent that they can still win.

I mean, is that really arguable? Sometimes I honestly don't understand people who argue up = down.

I'm watching the pressd conference and Kobe himself just said he played like "crap". Which he can do and LA still has a chance to win.

[Indian guy]

The last 3 seasons we've been fortunate enough to see LeBron and Kobe go up against the same team in the playoffs. Boston in '08, Orlando in '09 and Boston in '10. And I have come out feeling better about LeBron in this rivalry every time.

This is why I made no sweeping statements over LeBron vs. Kobe after Boston ousted LeBron while Kobe was beasting against Utah. Even though "this is why Kobe > LeBron" articles were all over the net after Game 5, but I KNEW the difference between facing 2 teams(Utah and Phx) that are every perimeter stars' dream opponent versus facing one of the 5 greatest defensive teams in NBA history.

If LeBron had put together the 4 game stretch Kobe has in these Finals so far, Boston would've swept Cleveland. The only 2 games Cleveland even won in that series featured spectacular games from LeBron. The other 4 games weren't even all that competitive in the 4th qtr. Heck, 2 of the losses weren't even competitive from 2nd qtr onwards. If LeBron was off, forget winning, Cleveland didn't even have a shot at playing a close game. It just goes to show you the difference in talent, defense and coaching between the 2 teams. And none of this will change even if Kobe goes on to be spectacular in the remaining games. We KNOW the real reason why LA can defeat Boston and why Cleveland couldn't.

[Allstar24]

*Yawn*

Same f*cking topic over and over and over again. At what point will you get bored of talking about this? That's the biggest question on my mind. Will it ever get old for you trolls? I think not.

[konex]

Is there really a comparison between what kind of support the two have had vs. each other?

Lakers could have used Shaq and Jamison tonight...

[konex]

Oh also, Kobe is playing Rondo and logging 43 minutes every game cos the bench is awful. I'm not surprised he's fading down the stretch...

[the_future02]

Gasol Bynum Odom>>>>>>>>> Shaq Jamison Verajao

This is obviously the difference when Kobe is struggling his teamates can pick him up especially Fisher in game 3 does anyone thing Mo or West could have done that?

[ginobli2311]

The last 3 seasons we've been fortunate enough to see LeBron and Kobe go up against the same team in the playoffs. Boston in '08, Orlando in '09 and Boston in '10. And I have come out feeling better about LeBron in this rivalry every time.

This is why I made no sweeping statements over LeBron vs. Kobe after Boston ousted LeBron while Kobe was beasting against Utah. Even though "this is why Kobe > LeBron" articles were all over the net after Game 5, but I KNEW the difference between facing 2 teams(Utah and Phx) that are every perimeter stars' dream opponent versus facing one of the 5 greatest defensive teams in NBA history.

If LeBron had put together the 4 game stretch Kobe has in these Finals so far, Boston would've swept Cleveland. The only 2 games Cleveland even won in that series featured spectacular games from LeBron. The other 4 games weren't even all that competitive in the 4th qtr. Heck, 2 of the losses weren't even competitive from 2nd qtr onwards. If LeBron was off, forget winning, Cleveland didn't even have a shot at playing a close game. It just goes to show you the difference in talent, defense and coaching between the 2 teams.

very well said. the lakers just won a game with kobe going 10-29 and 1-5 in the 4th qtr against the celtics.

by the way. lebron is actually the best closer in the game. the numbers and these playoffs prove it. funny how nobody on espn or nbatv is even bringing up how bad kobe has been in the 4th qtr this series....just dreadful.

have to give the media credit...they will run with that "kobe is the best closer" line no matter what happens.

[w00terz]

LeBron is a f*cking disgrace. He has no heart, no will, no jumpshot. I'd choose Kobe any day of the week. This is coming from someone who despises the Lakers.

[Courtside View]

*Yawn*

Same f*cking topic over and over and over again. At what point will you get bored of talking about this? That's the biggest question on my mind. Will it ever get old for you trolls? I think not.

You know what, in my initial post, I presented a detailed, thought out opinion for discussion. But you, either because you're bitter about tonight's game still or just an overall Bryant homer to come in and call me a "troll". A troll to me is someone like yourself who clicks on a reasonable topic, and provides no argument, just whining.

If you didn't like the topic, you could just IGNORE it. But, being the Bryant homer you are, you had to come in and give your opinion, even if added nothing to the discussion. I knew it would happen, it's ISH after all, but from now on I'm only going to respond to those interested in having a reasonble debate.

[jstern]

It's called denial. Mentally weak people have lots of it because they can't accept facts that make them feel uncomfortable. Losing an argument, being wrong makes them feel uncomfortable.

[Amil23]

LeBron is a f*cking disgrace. He has no heart, no will, no jumpshot. I'd choose Kobe any day of the week. This is coming from someone who lives in southern california.
fixed

[hito da god]

hi inside hoops,

stats only tell half the story

sincerely, hito da god

p.s. that's all i care to say at this point..... watch the games and tell me lebron has performed better than kobe against the celtics. i'd liken you to a frat boy with beer goggles on.......

[the_future02]

LeBron is a f*cking disgrace. He has no heart, no will, no jumpshot. I'd choose Kobe any day of the week. This is coming from someone who despises the Lakers.


Someone who lives in Southern California choosing Kobe over LeBron gee whiz he has to be objective:roll:

[Courtside View]

LeBron is a f*cking disgrace. He has no heart, no will, no jumpshot. I'd choose Kobe any day of the week. This is coming from someone who despises the Lakers.

Wow, that's a reasonable counter argument to everything I wrote. I never considered that. I take back everything I originally said.

[ginobli2311]

LeBron is a f*cking disgrace. He has no heart, no will, no jumpshot. I'd choose Kobe any day of the week. This is coming from someone who despises the Lakers.

so you are going to throw out all of lebron's great play and legendary performances because of one bad 2 game stretch against a much much better team with no help?

kobe has played with no heart far more times than lebron ever has. damn the media has done such a good job of killing lebron and hyping kobe. i never knew sports fans....especially ones that come to message boards......are just espn drones that can't think for themselves. its really sad.

[Courtside View]

hi inside hoops,

stats only tell half the story

sincerely, hito da god

p.s. that's all i care to say at this point..... watch the games and tell me lebron has performed better than kobe against the celtics. i'd liken you to a frat boy with beer goggles on.......

I've watched the game, and no I don't see how Kobe has outperformed Bront in this series.

Also, if you bothered to read my initial post, I brought up team support as well as 4th quarter performance not just "stats"

Again, exactly what I'm talking about. Perception vs reality. And the inability of people such as yourself to provide any kind of reasonable counter point.

[gts]

I've watched the game, and no I don't see how Kobe has outperformed Bront in this series.

Also, if you bothered to read my initial post, I brought up team support as well as 4th quarter performance not just "stats"

Again, exactly what I'm talking about. Perception vs reality. And the inability of people such as yourself to provide any kind of reasonable counter point.
lebron QUIT end of discussion...

that's reality not perception, you can look at numbers till fg% comes out your ass and the fact is lebron james quit playing

that enough honesty for you?

[Courtside View]

I'm going to state RIGHT NOW. If you disagree with what I wrote and provide detailed reasoning as to why not, I'll respect you.

If you just come in and say shyt like "Bron sux, Kobe better" or other nonsense I'm going to assume that you have nothing intelligent to say, and I'm going to call you a moron for it.

Again, come in intelligent with reasonable points I'll respect you. Come in unable to counter what I initially wrote and I'll take that as you conceding that you have no reasonable counter. That you're just posting just to post because you're frustrated that you have no answer.

[Allstar24]

You know what, in my initial post, I presented a detailed, thought out opinion for discussion. But you, either because you're bitter about tonight's game still or just an overall Bryant homer to come in and call me a "troll". A troll to me is someone like yourself who clicks on a reasonable topic, and provides no argument, just whining.

If you didn't like the topic, you could just IGNORE it. But, being the Bryant homer you are, you had to come in and give your opinion, even if added nothing to the discussion. I knew it would happen, it's ISH after all, but from now on I'm only going to respond to those interested in having a reasonble debate.
Yeah and you know what...ashbelly, the biggest Lebron homer on this board, presented this exact "detailed" opinion for discussion earlier today. The agenda is obvious, we all know the real purpose of this topic. Like I said, at what point will it get old? Spare me your little explanation, I've seen your kind here before.

[Courtside View]

lebron QUIT end of discussion...

that's reality not perception, you can look at numbers till fg% comes out your ass and the fact is lebron james quit playing

that enough honesty for you?

Once again, ignored everything I wrote in my initial post. Like I said, I'll asume you did that because you have no reasonable counter. Anyone who cannot point by point counter my initial topic I'll consider a fanboy. Fanboy.

[Courtside View]

Yeah and you know what...ashbelly, the biggest Lebron homer on this board, presented this exact "detailed" opinion for discussion earlier today. The agenda is obvious, we all know the real purpose of this topic. Like I said, at what point will it get old? Spare me your little explanation, I've seen your kind here before.

Yep, no counter argument. Just like I thought. I've seen your kind before. I take that to mean you agree with me. Should have just said so sooner.

[gts]

Once again, ignored everything I wrote in my initial post. Like I said, I'll asume you did that because you have no reasonable counter. Anyone who cannot point by point counter my initial topic I'll consider a fanboy. Fanboy.
everything you wrote is superflous because the fact is and everyone who has half a brain knows that lebron james quit playing in that seires.. it's not a fanboy remark it is a known fact it was witnessed by millions of people and talked about for days

the fact YOU are ignoring this fact points out that you not i who is the real fanboy... teammates numbers all that is worthless when your star player gives up and stops trying

so have fun beating the same drum that has been beat a million times in the last few years here on ish...

next time try thinking up an original topic for discussion

[laronprofit9]

I think what's hurting kobe's fg% numbers are his teammates not giving him the ball.

When they do its a stupid bail out situation where Kobe gets like 3 seconds do something.

Your fg% gets hurt like that.

Lebron and Kobe are almost opposites on offense right now.

Lebron gets the ball for most of the possession running the shot clock out. Then drives in and passes the ball to a teammate with the shot clock almost out. Lebron gets the ball early.

Kobe doesn't get the ball for most of the possession, and then finally gets it when the shot clock is almost out. Kobe gets the ball way too late in the shot clock.

And I hate to say it, but I think Kobe has not been getting any calls at all this series. Free Throws help your fg%. I mean Kobe still gets to the line, but on those 50/50 calls where you blow the whistle or swallow. They are not blowing the whistle for Kobe. While Lebron on those 50/50 calls is getting them. Which can add up to about 2 less field goal misses a game.

[hito da god]

I've watched the game, and no I don't see how Kobe has outperformed Bront in this series.

Also, if you bothered to read my initial post, I brought up team support as well as 4th quarter performance not just "stats"

Again, exactly what I'm talking about. Perception vs reality. And the inability of people such as yourself to provide any kind of reasonable counter point.
don't try and say lebron's 4th quarter performance was better than kobe's against the celtics...... their game plan is always to shut down the star player. and they have the personnel to do so. also, there's an entire two games (minimum) to be played before you make a final conclusion.

team support is what it is.... lebron's team is built around his talents and abilities.... as is kobe's. lebron has a ton of shooters/big targets to dump off to on that squad, which supports his ability to get to the rim and make the dump off pass. unfortunately, lebron would rather settle for jump shots (which he can't make with regularity, ESPECIALLY in crunch time) when the buckets matter most than take the god damn ball to the rack.

look at my avatar and tell me i have a bias...... i see what i see, and the cavs, while they lack the scoring SKILL of the lakers, have just as good a supporting cast (have been top 3-5 in the league in rebounding/defense for how many years now? offense is only one side of the ball) as the lakers.... offensively, they are built around lebron, and they support his style of play. how they perform is a different matter all together... you can't blame kobe for fish coming up big in one strethch.

i just love how every year the cavs are thought to be the favorite to win the title, and when lebron (repeatedly) chokes in the playoffs against contenders, the excuse that "he has no help" is brought up as a cop out.

[branslowski]

everything you wrote is superflous because the fact is and everyone who has half a brain knows that lebron james quit playing in that seires.. it's not a fanboy remark it is a known fact it was witnessed by millions of people and talked about for days

the fact YOU are ignoring this fact points out that you not i is the real fanboy... teammates numbers all that is worthless when your star player gives up and stops trying

so have fun beating the same drum that has been beat a million times in the last few years here on ish...

next time try thinking up an original topic for discussion

this.

But stats>>Life yo!:banana:

[DwightHowardMVP]

Lol expect people to take you serious when your are completely biased?


Why show Kobe stat line and BOLD his turnovers and low number of assist?

And at least wait for the series to be over before comparing statlines lol

[the_future02]

Allow me to make a premptive response that a typical fanboy does. Kobe 4> LeBron 0 U Mad?:ohwell:

[Courtside View]

everything you wrote is superflous because the fact is and everyone who has half a brain knows that lebron james quit playing in that seires.. it's not a fanboy remark it is a known fact it was witnessed by millions of people and talked about for days

the fact YOU are ignoring this fact points out that you not i is the real fanboy... teammates numbers all that is worthless when your star player gives up and stops trying

Nope, I was prepared for thread derailers with Laker avatars. I wrote a reasonable initial topic. I didn't just come in and say "Haha Bryant sux" or something of the kind. ONLY Bryant homers would think it was unreasonable (even if they disagree with it).

Like I said, I'll take anyone (especially those with LA avatars) who doesn't point by point respond to my initial post with what they disagree with a grain of salt and conceding that I'm right, since they cannot point out just what's so bad about it (except for "LeBron quit" type nonsense.

[laronprofit9]

I think what's hurting kobe's fg% numbers are his teammates not giving him the ball.

When they do its a stupid bail out situation where Kobe gets like 3 seconds do something.

Your fg% gets hurt like that.

Lebron and Kobe are almost opposites on offense right now.

Lebron gets the ball for most of the possession running the shot clock out. Then drives in and passes the ball to a teammate with the shot clock almost out. Lebron gets the ball early.

Kobe doesn't get the ball for most of the possession, and then finally gets it when the shot clock is almost out. Kobe gets the ball way too late in the shot clock.

And I hate to say it, but I think Kobe has not been getting any calls at all this series. Free Throws help your fg%. I mean Kobe still gets to the line, but on those 50/50 calls where you blow the whistle or swallow. They are not blowing the whistle for Kobe. While Lebron on those 50/50 calls is getting them. Which can add up to about 2 less field goal misses a game.

Gasol has been getting more love from the refs than Kobe in this series.

[w00terz]

So because I'm from Southern California that makes me a Lakers fan and a Kobe fan? Why don't you check my posting history before talking bs? I hate the Lakers more than any team in the league.

[DwightHowardMVP]

Gasol has been getting more love from the refs than Kobe in this series.
Kobe has been playing good. But the bail-out shots with the clock at 2 are whats hurting his FG%.

They need to get Kobe the ball in the 4th early on the shot-clock

[Courtside View]

don't try and say lebron's 4th quarter performance was better than kobe's against the celtics...... their game plan is always to shut down the star player. and they have the personnel to do so. also, there's an entire two games (minimum) to be played before you make a final conclusion.

team support is what it is.... lebron's team is built around his talents and abilities.... as is kobe's. lebron has a ton of shooters/big targets to dump off to on that squad, which supports his ability to get to the rim and make the dump off pass. unfortunately, lebron would rather settle for jump shots (which he can't make with regularity, ESPECIALLY in crunch time) when the buckets matter most than take the god damn ball to the rack.

look at my avatar and tell me i have a bias...... i see what i see, and the cavs, while they lack the scoring SKILL of the lakers, have just as good a supporting cast (have been top 3-5 in the league in rebounding/defense for how many years now? offense is only one side of the ball) as the lakers.... offensively, they are built around lebron, and they support his style of play. how they perform is a different matter all together... you can't blame kobe for fish coming up big in one strethch.

i just love how every year the cavs are thought to be the favorite to win the title, and when lebron (repeatedly) chokes in the playoffs against contenders, the excuse that "he has no help" is brought up as a cop out.

lol, yes. And what it is is EVERYTHING if you're trying to win in a team sport. You have to have players that can step up CONSISTENTLY in the big moments. Anyone trying to say that the Cavs have players that did so with anywhere near the kind of impact that the Lakers have is delusional.

And that's why they keep talking about stuff like "LeBron quit" or "stats don't matter" and the like because they just can't argue the team factor. So they'll keep sidestepping and making excuses and denying and all of that.

[Indian guy]

don't try and say lebron's 4th quarter performance was better than kobe's against the celtics

LeBron never even got the chance to play hero in that series barring Game 1. The games were never that close. I can't even imagine the trashing he would've received from all corners had he no-showed in 3 consecutive 4th qtrs.

:oldlol: at the rest of your post where you put Cleveland's D & rebounding on LA's level. If that was even remotely true, then we'd be watching a Cleveland/LA finals right now. Or heck, if that was true, then Boston would've swept LA today.

[gts]

Nope, I was prepared for thread derailers with Laker avatars. I wrote a reasonable initial topic. I didn't just come in and say "Haha Bryant sux" or something of the kind. ONLY Bryant homers would think it was unreasonable (even if they disagree with it).

Like I said, I'll take anyone (especially those with LA avatars) who doesn't point by point respond to my initial post with what they disagree with a grain of salt and conceding that I'm right, since they cannot point out just what's so bad about it (except for "LeBron quit" type nonsense.

yes it's a reasonable post you wrote if you want to live in a fantasy world

have fun, say hi to the mad hatter and and don't be late for tea alice

[Courtside View]

yes it's a reasonable post you wrote if you want to live in a fantasy world

have fun, say hi to the mad hatter and and don't be late for tea alice

When I strongly disagree with something that someone wrote, provided they were detailed and articulate in their reasoning then I point by point counter them. That's what a debate is about. Or, if I don't feel like it, I ignore the thread all together. I find that people such as yourself are usually the frustrated types that CAN'T provide any response. Which, like I said, is pretty much what I expected from homer types. Glad you agree with me though.

[hito da god]

LeBron never even got the chance to play hero in that series. The games were never that close. I can't even imagine the trashing he would've received from all corners had he no-showed in 3 consecutive 4th qtrs.

:oldlol: at the rest of your post where you put Cleveland's D & rebounding on LA's level. If that was even remotely true, then we'd be watching a Cleveland/LA finals right now. Or heck, if that was true, then Boston would've swept LA today.
http://www.nba.com/statistics/sortable_team_statistics/sortable2.html?cnf=1&prd=1#top

cleveland led the league in rebounding differential, and were higher than the lakers in block differential.

try again :oldlol:

i might have worded the "team support is what it is" statement wrong, but when it comes to performance in the 4th, you can't blame a star player for a teammate of his coming up clutch.

try and dispute my point that lebron has all the support he needs.... his teammates complement his style of play. period. the only way they could be better were if he had ray allen on the perimeter and dwight howard under the basket.

[hito da god]

LeBron never even got the chance to play hero in that series barring Game 1. The games were never that close. I can't even imagine the trashing he would've received from all corners had he no-showed in 3 consecutive 4th qtrs.

:oldlol: at the rest of your post where you put Cleveland's D & rebounding on LA's level. If that was even remotely true, then we'd be watching a Cleveland/LA finals right now. Or heck, if that was true, then Boston would've swept LA today.
he didn't get to no-show in three consecutive 4th quarters because he quit on the team he leads by the middle of the third quarter in games whatever they were. best player in the world :rolleyes:

[Fatal9]

this.

But stats>>Life yo!:banana:
Lebron had a near 30/20/10 game vs. Celtics while facing elimination. That's some GOAT level sh*t stat-wise right?

I'd like to point out Kobe's had TWO bad games in the series. One which was with the officials literally taking him out of the game whenever he'd make a shot. Lebron was up 2-1 in the series, had home court and then following it up with:

- 22 pt game on 7/18 (38.9%) + 7 turnovers where he didn't give a fck all of the fourth quarter (maybe didn't want to hurt FG% by forcing bad shots at the end?)
- 15 pt game on 3/14 (21.4%) game where he didn't give a fck all game in front of his own crowd. Kobe at least played hard defense in his one horrific game this series.
- 27/19/10 on 8/21 (38.1%) and 9 turnovers, one of the emptiest triple doubles I've ever seen.

[Courtside View]

http://www.nba.com/statistics/sortable_team_statistics/sortable2.html?cnf=1&prd=1#top

cleveland led the league in rebounding differential, and were higher than the lakers in block differential.

try again :oldlol:

i might have worded the "team support is what it is" statement wrong, but when it comes to performance in the 4th, you can't blame a star player for a teammate of his coming up clutch.

try and dispute my point that lebron has all the support he needs.... his teammates complement his style of play. period. the only way they could be better were if he had ray allen on the perimeter and dwight howard under the basket.

This is such nonsense. How can they compliment his style of play if they dissapear in the biggest moments? Further, you don't think a frontline that has performed like Pau and Bynum would "compliment his game"?

Honestly, I respect that you're at least trying to offer counter arguments instead of what a lot of these people are doing, but you're not really providing any reasonable counters. The reason for that is simple.

LA has FAR more talent, and talent that has stepped up consistantly in big games. Only a fool would deny that.

[hito da god]

that triple double in the elimination game was the quietest triple double i have ever seen in my life.

[chopchop20]

Wonder what LeBron was doing tonight while the Lakers and Celts were playing...

[Courtside View]

Lebron had a near 30/20/10 game vs. Celtics while facing elimination. That's some GOAT level sh*t stat-wise right?

I'd like to point out Kobe's had TWO bad games in the series. One which was with the officials literally taking him out of the game whenever he'd make a shot. Lebron was up 2-1 in the series, had home court and then following it up with:

- 22 pt game on 7/18 (38.9%) + 7 turnovers where he didn't give a fck all of the fourth quarter (maybe didn't want to hurt FG% by forcing bad shots at the end?)
- 15 pt game on 3/14 (21.4%) game where he didn't give a fck all game in front of his own crowd. Kobe at least played hard defense in his one horrific game this series.
- 27/19/10 on 8/21 (38.1%) and 9 turnovers, one of the emptiest triple doubles I've ever seen.

I take it you agree that Bryant can have poor games and his team still win because of the OBVIOUS frontline and big game/clutch advantages of his key teammates and that's why you didn't bother to argue against it.

[gts]

When I strongly disagree with something that someone wrote, provided they were detailed and articulate in their reasoning then I point by point counter them. That's what a debate is about. Or, if I don't feel like it, I ignore the thread all together. I find that people such as yourself are usually the frustrated types that CAN'T provide any response. Which, like I said, is pretty much what I expected from homer types. Glad you agree with me though.


i did provide a response and you have yet to discuss it.. lebron quit on his team! i'm sorry if this is painful for you to discuss but it is the reason the cavs got bounced.. the best player on the cavs quit playing

frustrated? yes the lakers are in the finals the cavs are not, who started the thread? cavs fan yet i'm the frustrated one...lol

i'm gonna go discuss what the lakers need to change in game 5 of the nba finals while you can keep ignoring what lebron did in game 5

[Amil23]

Wonder what LeBron was doing tonight while the Lakers and Celts were playing...


Probably had Savannah spread eagle begging for mercy like Kobe had that white girl,only for a different reason though:roll:

[Courtside View]

Wonder what LeBron was doing tonight while the Lakers and Celts were playing...

Wonder what people who prefer to stick their fingers in their ears and yell instead of proving something intelligent are doing tonight? Oh, that's right. They're posting in this thread.

[Logical]

I've been watching a lot of NBA in the past few years, and LeBron James just keeps amazing me because of how well he plays 1v5.

The discussion will continue because individuals are given credit when their team accomplishes something, despite their own individual performance.

If you are hoping for a fair discussion, the only thing you can really do is hope LeBron gets to play with some talented teammates someday.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMLWtDOd1Ok

But most importantly just remember that the NBA is ultimately an entertainment business, and not to take it too seriously.

[Amil23]

Wonder what people who prefer to stick their fingers in their ears and yell instead of proving something intelligent are doing tonight? Oh, that's right. They're posting in this thread.
A logical debate for a Kobe fan is "U Mad" I get your point but its useless

[branslowski]

Wonder what LeBron was doing tonight while the Lakers and Celts were playing...

Making this thread....

[Fatal9]

I take it you agree that Bryant can have poor games and his team still win because of the OBVIOUS frontline and big game/clutch advantages of his key teammates and that's why you didn't bother to argue against it.
It's the same reason Cavs could win big playoff games in '07 and '08 while Lebron shot like trash or was a turnover machine. When you and your team play defense, doesn't matter how bad you shoot. Last game's win with Kobe shooting poorly was was a mixture of Boston sucking offensively (Ray Allen - 0/13 while getting good looks, Pierce not doing sh*t) and Lakers playing decent defensively (and Kobe was a big part of this).

[hito da god]

This is such nonsense. How can they compliment his style of play if they dissapear in the biggest moments? Further, you don't think a frontline that has performed like Pau and Bynum would "compliment his game"?

Honestly, I respect that you're at least trying to offer counter arguments instead of what a lot of these people are doing, but you're not really providing any reasonable counters. The reason for that is simple.

LA has FAR more talent, and talent that has stepped up consistantly in big games. Only a fool would deny that.
in this instance it's complement, not compliment. just a footnote*

it's a matter of style of play. lebron is a slasher who is a willing passer. being surrounded by 3-point threats opens up driving lanes for him. perimeter players can't collapse and help on his drives, because that leaves an open 3-pointer to very capable three-point shooters. having big men like shaq, varejao, big Z, jamison, hickson, give him targets to hit when he drives to the lane and the big men guarding them help on a lebron drive. if these big men don't help, lebron has an unstoppable drive to the basket.

kobe is a volume scorer. gasol, bynum, fisher, artest (about as subservient as role players as you can find for a superstar player) all complement kobe's game and the triangle offense.

the cavs players complement lebron's style of play and the offense they run. that is, give the ball to lebron and get the f*ck out of the way.... same with the lakers. it's not always about the talent and OFFENSIVE skill level on a team, it's also how the team is built, intangibles, and the chemistry on that team. anybody who has played competitive basketball can tell you the same...

do you think lebron would dump the ball off to gasol and let him operate in an isolation? no dice, bron can't get an assist that way :oldlol:

[Courtside View]

i did provide a response and you have yet to discuss it.. lebron quit on his team! i'm sorry if this is painful for you to discuss but it is the reason the cavs got bounced.. the best player on the cavs quit playing

frustrated? yes the lakers are in the finals the cavs are not, who started the thread? cavs fan yet i'm the frustrated one...lol

i'm gonna go discuss what the lakers need to change in game 5 of the nba finals while you can keep ignoring what lebron did in game 5

When you discuss the elements of my initial post that you disagree with, I'll be happy to. I made the thread you know. No fair not responding to my initial post, and expecting me to respond to your point.

Your other stuff is ad hominem crap that I'll ignore.

[branslowski]

Lebron had a near 30/20/10 game vs. Celtics while facing elimination. That's some GOAT level sh*t stat-wise right?

I'd like to point out Kobe's had TWO bad games in the series. One which was with the officials literally taking him out of the game whenever he'd make a shot. Lebron was up 2-1 in the series, had home court and then following it up with:

- 22 pt game on 7/18 (38.9%) + 7 turnovers where he didn't give a fck all of the fourth quarter (maybe didn't want to hurt FG% by forcing bad shots at the end?)
- 15 pt game on 3/14 (21.4%) game where he didn't give a fck all game in front of his own crowd. Kobe at least played hard defense in his one horrific game this series.
- 27/19/10 on 8/21 (38.1%) and 9 turnovers, one of the emptiest triple doubles I've ever seen.

Your just hatin yo...LEbRons puts up GOATS triples doubles holds ball 24 seconds pass for GOAT assist and GOAT points GOATS triples doubles better stat= Bettter players GOATS...Stast up my ass, Check my stats..Last games triples doubles boost GOAT my stats because Im GOAT stat, Per b!tch, GOAT...Nike.

[hito da god]

in this instance it's complement, not compliment. just a footnote*

it's a matter of style of play. lebron is a slasher who is a willing passer. being surrounded by 3-point threats opens up driving lanes for him. perimeter players can't collapse and help on his drives, because that leaves an open 3-pointer to very capable three-point shooters. having big men like shaq, varejao, big Z, jamison, hickson, give him targets to hit when he drives to the lane and the big men guarding them help on a lebron drive. if these big men don't help, lebron has an unstoppable drive to the basket.

kobe is a volume scorer. gasol, bynum, fisher, artest (about as subservient as role players as you can find for a superstar player) all complement kobe's game and the triangle offense.

the cavs players complement lebron's style of play and the offense they run. that is, give the ball to lebron and get the f*ck out of the way.... same with the lakers. it's not always about the talent and OFFENSIVE skill level on a team, it's also how the team is built, intangibles, and the chemistry on that team. anybody who has played competitive basketball can tell you the same...

do you think lebron would dump the ball off to gasol and let him operate in an isolation? no dice, bron can't get an assist that way :oldlol:
it's a simple game to understand.... you people just make it hard :confusedshrug:

[RazorBaLade]

lebron goat near quad double elim game lets ignore him running from half court to reb free throws GOAT

[TheLogo]

So after the Boston series, LeBron took all kinds of heat. He choked, he's overrated, blah blah blah. Now I know in creating a thread like this, it's going to attract the kind of people that are are programmed to defend Bryant no matter what. I'm just asking for those of you who are knowledgeable, non homer/hero worshipper types to be honest, and take into account situational differences vs hyperbole.

Let's look at how each player has fared vs the Celtics:

LeBron - 29ppg, 44%fg 7.2 asst, 9.3rb, 2.17spg, 4.5 TO
Kobe - (through game 4, 4 games stats aren't up yet)
26ppg, 39%fg, 5.3asst,6.3rpg, 2.3spg, 3.3 TO
Today's game - 33 points, 10-22fg, 2asst, 6rb. 7TO

Is there really a comparison between what kind of support the two have had vs. each other? In LA, you've got the dominant front line, and several players that have given huge contributions at times which put LA over the top, even when Bryant was struggling (especially in crunch time). Artest has, Pau has, Bynum, Fisher has been hugely clutch. Even when Odom isn't performing great, he still has that length to go along with Bynum and Pau. And I would take Odom over anything on Cleveland. Please tell me WHO on Cleveland came anywhere near matching that kind of support on a consistent basis? Mo? Jamison? Shaq?

Like I said, I know this will devolve into the usual hero worshipping crap, but my point isn't really to defend LeBron (though I thought he got unreasonably criticized for his play), it's to point out how so many are either willing to ignore these types of things in order to gloss over their favorite players' struggles, or unable to put things into proper context. Based on their respective teams, and the fact that Kobe has far more support than Bron has which is a FACT that I don't see how anyone can deny, Kobe has not blow Bron away in his play vs. Boston thus far. Further, Bryant's 4th quarter play has also been erratic in this series. Hardly the stuff of "See! He's soooooooo much more clutch than LeBron"

Therefore, how can anyone, with a shred of reason, conclude that Bron disgraced himself and should no longer be ranked as highly and that his Boston series proved that he's not on Bryant's level? And I'm not even saying Bron deserved no criticism for his Boston series, but come on. All things considered, if Cleveland had players that were able to give the contributions that so many key Lakers have, with as much consistency, does anyone think it wouldn't have been a different series with Bron giving the exact same production?

It's actually very easy to answer.....

In the NBA there are 3 seasons.....the regular season, the playoffs, the Finals.

Lebron played Boston in the playoffs where Kobe is playing Boston in the Finals.

The Finals is another animal....everything is tougher in the Finals.

[Courtside View]

in this instance it's complement, not compliment. just a footnote*

it's a matter of style of play. lebron is a slasher who is a willing passer. being surrounded by 3-point threats opens up driving lanes for him. perimeter players can't collapse and help on his drives, because that leaves an open 3-pointer to very capable three-point shooters. having big men like shaq, varejao, big Z, jamison, hickson, give him targets to hit when he drives to the lane and the big men guarding them help on a lebron drive. if these big men don't help, lebron has an unstoppable drive to the basket.

kobe is a volume scorer. gasol, bynum, fisher, artest (about as subservient as role players as you can find for a superstar player) all complement kobe's game and the triangle offense.

the cavs players complement lebron's style of play and the offense they run. that is, give the ball to lebron and get the f*ck out of the way.... same with the lakers. it's not always about the talent and OFFENSIVE skill level on a team, it's also how the team is built, intangibles, and the chemistry on that team. anybody who has played competitive basketball can tell you the same...

do you think lebron would dump the ball off to gasol and let him operate in an isolation? no dice, bron can't get an assist that way :oldlol:

Yes, I'm aware of the difference between compliment and complement thanks. Playing grammar police over typos is something I could choose to do often on a site like this but rarely if ever do.

At any rate, like I said you're at least attempting to provide a counter argument but honestly, only someone in denial would argue the difference in both the frontilines of each team, as well as how many players have stepped up in pivotal moments for LA. You just can't argue that. You can say Bron "quit" you can say "stats ain't everything", you can say that you hate Bron's jumper. You can say all of those things however the obvious difference in quality of support for each player is INARGUABLE. Trying just makes you look like you're ignoring this key factor for whatever reason (ie, to hold on to your agenda).

Further, unless you're really just homering, you cannot say that Bryant's play has been obviously superior to Bron against Boston.

Let's, for the sake of argument, say that it's even (so far). I'm taking LeBron on the Lakers over Bryant for the simple reason that I wouldn't expect him to play as poorly with that kind of boost in talent.

[Allstar24]

It's the same reason Cavs could win big playoff games in '07 and '08 while Lebron shot like trash or was a turnover machine. When you and your team play defense, doesn't matter how bad you shoot. Last game's win with Kobe shooting poorly was was a mixture of Boston sucking offensively (Ray Allen - 0/13 while getting good looks, Pierce not doing sh*t) and Lakers playing decent defensively (and Kobe was a big part of this).
Lebron shot 21-59 (36%) in the Cavs 3 wins vs the Celtics in that 08 series. How did Lebron with his "horrible teammates" manage to win 3 gams vs the Celtics shooting an ugly 36% from the field (even lower than Kobe's current shooting percentage).

The funny thing is...I see Lebron's ridiculous stats but I'd rather have Kobe on my team. I'm glad he plays for my favorite team. The guy is a proven winner.

[TheLogo]

It's actually very easy to answer.....

In the NBA there are 3 seasons.....the regular season, the playoffs, the Finals.

Lebron played Boston in the playoffs where Kobe is playing Boston in the Finals.

The Finals is another animal....everything is tougher in the Finals.

Teams actually play defense in the Finals unlike the regular season and playoffs.

[Courtside View]

Your just hatin yo...LEbRons puts up GOATS triples doubles holds ball 24 seconds pass for GOAT assist and GOAT points GOATS triples doubles better stat= Bettter players GOATS...Stast up my ass, Check my stats..Last games triples doubles boost GOAT my stats because Im GOAT stat, Per b!tch, GOAT...Nike.

Honestly, are you that invested in Kobe Bryant that a thread like this annoys you to the point that you can't even respond intelligently? I honestly don't get it because there are athletes I like a lot, but none that would cause me to act like a child.

Please explain. I'm honestly curious. You obviously have no intention of contributing to the debate, so what's the reason?

[Jacks3]

Lebron quit in multiple games;Kobe hasn't.


/thread

[DwightHowardMVP]

It's actually very easy to answer.....

In the NBA there are 3 seasons.....the regular season, the playoffs, the Finals.

Lebron played Boston in the playoffs where Kobe is playing Boston in the Finals.

The Finals is another animal....everything is tougher in the Finals.


Cosign. Anyone thinking Wade would shoot 56% against Celtics in the finals are quite hilarious

[branslowski]

Honestly, are you that invested in Kobe Bryant that a thread like this annoys you to the point that you can't even respond intelligently? I honestly don't get it because there are athletes I like a lot, but none that would cause me to act like a child.

Please explain. I'm honestly curious. You obviously have no intention of contributing to the debate, so what's the reason?

What do you meany Son?

Ima agreeing with yous that LeBrons GOAT stats bees the greatest ya diggs? You saw his GOATS last games that didnt boost up his GOATS stats, LeBron GOATS Stats, Better than winnning championships and stupid stuff because stats be the greatest b!tch, Yoyo yo stats in da doe:banana: :banana:

[Micku]

s.
The Finals is another animal....everything is tougher in the Finals.

No it ain't. Things are bigger in the Finals, but it is not tougher because it depends on the team that will play.

For example, look at the 2002 playoffs. Kings vs Lakers might as well been the NBA Finals than the Lakers vs Nets.

[Courtside View]

Lebron quit in multiple games;Kobe hasn't.


/thread

I love how you put "multiple games" but at least you acknowledge the Phoenix Game 7. But let's say LeBron DID quit in 2 games vs Kobe's 1. So the 1 more game that Bron quit in is your thread ending argument?

At any rate, yet another person who refuses to acknowledge the OBVIOUS difference in contributions of teammates for each.

Is it really so hard for you to admit? Hell, what would be wrong in even saying "Yes, Kobe has gotten FAR more from his team than LeBron did, but I still think Kobe is better"? Does the fear of Kobe somehow being diminished control you guys that much?

It's like not being able to admit that snow is white. That's how absurd it is.

[Courtside View]

What do you meany Son?

Ima agreeing with yous that LeBrons GOAT stats bees the greatest ya diggs? You saw his GOATS last games that didnt boost up his GOATS stats, LeBron GOATS Stats, Better than winnning championships and stupid stuff because stats be the greatest b!tch, Yoyo yo stats in da doe:banana: :banana:

Man, getting so emotionally involved in a basketball player is kinda pathetic really.

[jstern]

To the OP, I've seen this argument many times not only on ish, but in every type of discussion you can imagine. You can give a million facts that clearly show your point, but they will completely focus on any little thing that Kobe did better, or that Lebron did worst.

[jstern]

Let me add that Kobe could go 2 for 20 on his next game, and they will defend to their death that it was just one game, and that Kobe is better. Again, it's a human thing that I'm very aware of, that's currently going on in forums all over the world, no matter what the topics are. They would say that Kobe tried and that Lebron quit on his team.

[branslowski]

Seriuosly Courtside...


Your Thread is being made fun of because it's the NBA Finals, we have Boston vs Lakers, yet you want to bring up a topic that has been brought up about 50million times...You wanna bring up a Kobe vs LeBron debate for no reason...LeBron is at home not playin and ppl still bringin him up..

Ppl have diff opinions on this BEAT TO DEATH topic...If you think LeBron>>Kobe, thats cool, be you...Everyone doesn't have to think it...

Kobe plays better vs the Spurs in Playoff ball than LeBron did...Who cares?.

Really?..


LeBron vs Kobe....Really? Finals time Kid...

[hwliuLAP]

So after the Boston series, LeBron took all kinds of heat. He choked, he's overrated, blah blah blah. Now I know in creating a thread like this, it's going to attract the kind of people that are are programmed to defend Bryant no matter what. I'm just asking for those of you who are knowledgeable, non homer/hero worshipper types to be honest, and take into account situational differences vs hyperbole.

Let's look at how each player has fared vs the Celtics:

LeBron - 29ppg, 44%fg 7.2 asst, 9.3rb, 2.17spg, 4.5 TO
Kobe - (through game 4, 4 games stats aren't up yet)
26ppg, 39%fg, 5.3asst,6.3rpg, 2.3spg, 3.3 TO
Today's game - 33 points, 10-22fg, 2asst, 6rb. 7TO

Is there really a comparison between what kind of support the two have had vs. each other? In LA, you've got the dominant front line, and several players that have given huge contributions at times which put LA over the top, even when Bryant was struggling (especially in crunch time). Artest has, Pau has, Bynum, Fisher has been hugely clutch. Even when Odom isn't performing great, he still has that length to go along with Bynum and Pau. And I would take Odom over anything on Cleveland. Please tell me WHO on Cleveland came anywhere near matching that kind of support on a consistent basis? Mo? Jamison? Shaq?

Like I said, I know this will devolve into the usual hero worshipping crap, but my point isn't really to defend LeBron (though I thought he got unreasonably criticized for his play), it's to point out how so many are either willing to ignore these types of things in order to gloss over their favorite players' struggles, or unable to put things into proper context. Based on their respective teams, and the fact that Kobe has far more support than Bron has which is a FACT that I don't see how anyone can deny, Kobe has not blow Bron away in his play vs. Boston thus far. Further, Bryant's 4th quarter play has also been erratic in this series. Hardly the stuff of "See! He's soooooooo much more clutch than LeBron"

Therefore, how can anyone, with a shred of reason, conclude that Bron disgraced himself and should no longer be ranked as highly and that his Boston series proved that he's not on Bryant's level? And I'm not even saying Bron deserved no criticism for his Boston series, but come on. All things considered, if Cleveland had players that were able to give the contributions that so many key Lakers have, with as much consistency, does anyone think it wouldn't have been a different series with Bron giving the exact same production?



Because Boston blew out Lebron twice, and both of them were at home, where in a pivotal game 5, he didn't even keep his team close at home.

If you were shooting the ball so well, then you should had been able to carry your team better. not getting just blown out like that. If you were better defensively you would have done something to help whatever match up being exploded, no matter who that player is.

When Kobe is on the floor, he'll help dictate how the ball game goes, decisions, tempo, directing the defense, making the hustle plays. Lebron doesn't control his team the way Kobe does.

Unless Boston beats LA, than we can talk about this Kobe vs Lebron thing, remember, no one after game 4 was saying that Lebron was a choker as well. All the stuff came out after the loss, and it's too easy to make any statements regarding these players when the series is tied.

[lilgodfather1]

Seriuosly Courtside...


Your Thread is being made fun of because it's the NBA Finals, we have Boston vs Lakers, yet you want to bring up a topic that has been brought up about 50million times...You wanna bring up a Kobe vs LeBron debate for no reason...LeBron is at home not playin and ppl still bringin him up..

Ppl have diff opinions on this BEAT TO DEATH topic...If you think LeBron>>Kobe, thats cool, be you...Everyone doesn't have to think it...

Kobe plays better vs the Spurs in Playoff ball than LeBron did...Who cares?.

Really?..


LeBron vs Kobe....Really? Finals time Kid...
The next 5 finals run through this summer, so who cares about this years finals. Also LeBron and Kobe is a much more interesting topic than LA vs. Boston, total yawn fest. Been there done that, who really cares it is so old.

[Courtside View]

Seriuosly Courtside...


Your Thread is being made fun of because it's the NBA Finals, we have Boston vs Lakers, yet you want to bring up a topic that has been brought up about 50million times...You wanna bring up a Kobe vs LeBron debate for no reason...LeBron is at home not playin and ppl still bringin him up..

Ppl have diff opinions on this BEAT TO DEATH topic...If you think LeBron>>Kobe, thats cool, be you...Everyone doesn't have to think it...

Kobe plays better vs the Spurs in Playoff ball than LeBron did...Who cares?.

Really?..


LeBron vs Kobe....Really? Finals time Kid...

How many NBA Finals threads can you have? Get outta here. And bringing up the Kobe vs. LeBron debate for "no reason"? How about that this is a NBA MESSAGE BOARD. Funny thing is, I didn't even say that LeBron > Kobe. Also, if you have such a problem with this thread why not IGNORE IT? That's what someone who isn't childish does with a thread they don't like, provided the OP has made a reasonable post. Whether you liked the OP, agreed with the OP or whatever, noone with any intelligence can call it a "troll" or non supported post.

The real problem you have with the thread is that you're another Bryant homer who doesn't like anything that can even be remotely considered a slight to him. The "Finals time" stuff is just a smokescreen and we both know it.

And that's the last non topic response I'm going to give you.

[Fatal9]

I don't know how much Kobe benefits from a more talented team, and how that helps him get better looks to be honest.

Lebron plays with shooters that spread the floor, a career 20/10 guy in Jamison and another guy who can create shots or make plays for teammates in Mo Williams. Kobe in fact is the closest thing to a point guard on the team, and the only player who can create shots for others off the dribble consistently. He has one guy who makes spot up shots for him this year...Fisher. He has NO ONE who serves as the playmaker. Artest is completely useless on offense. Pau gets the odd double team here and there but it's not Kobe who they are leaving. And it's not necessarily easier to get to the basket with TWO bigs on your team who are crowding the lane with post position. We all see Kobe play, he sees the same double teams he's seen all his career, the defense still collapses on him when he drives and guys still "shade" him because of LA's lack of outside shooting.

Lets be honest for a second here about the Lakers. Gasol is great and consistent, one of the best "second best" players (along with Amare, Ginobili and some others). Bynum is great when healthy but he did NOTHING in the playoffs last year (put up Luc Longley numbers while playing horrible defense) and hasn't done much again save one or two games since the Thunder series (when he reinjured himself). Fisher is a defensive liability, but we'll overlook that because he steps up in big games. Odom is inconsistent and has been underwhelming all season. Artest is useless if there isn't a all-star SF matchup to make him slightly less useless. The rest of the bench consists of Brown, Vujacic and Farmar...not exactly all-stars. This team needed a lights out shooting performance from Kobe to barely make it out of the West. And as the roster was in that series, with Bynum hobbled and Artest having no all-star SF to guard, the Suns were the more talented team. I don't know who the better team here is, Boston could easily be up 3-1 if Ray Allen shoots even 30% in game 3, and they have the 4 of best 6 players while also having a better bench so far. If Bynum was putting up 20/10 a night I'd agree with those saying Kobe has this all-star cast, but I simply don't see it.

[Allstar24]

The next 5 finals run through this summer, so who cares about this years finals. Also LeBron and Kobe is a much more interesting topic than LA vs. Boston, total yawn fest. Been there done that, who really cares it is so old.
Real basketball fans care about this year's finals because it's about 2 TEAMS going at it, the way it should be. The increased ratings prove my point. Boston vs LA is the best rivalry in the history of basketball. Lebron vs Kobe is so NOT interesting right now. That's why I said, at what point does this get old for you guys? Talking about the same nonsense over and over again. Kobe fans are not changing their minds about Lebron, Lebron fans are not changing their minds about Kobe. Why kill each other over a discussion that's basically going nowhere.

[Fatal9]

I think the biggest difference in Kobe's team and Lebron's team is a consistent #2 guy and the coach (the irony is, Mike Brown's offensive system, or lack there of, helps Lebron's stats while the triangle equal opportunity offense doesn't do the same for Kobe, so we might need to cut down the PER titles if Lebron wants to win). With Bynum playing the way he did last playoffs and how he's been since the Thunder series, there really isn't a big difference in the casts at all. Weren't we hearing all season how Lebron got the talent he needed and how deep his team was?

Maybe Lebron should bring some freaking leadership to that team instead of clowning all regular season. Maybe Lebron should give his guys drills in the off season to improve their shooting (like Kobe did with Ariza). Maybe he should curse out his team for missed defensive assignments, for not being in the right position on offense, or for not showing up in a game? You know...that might make them "tougher" come playoff time when it isn't all shits and giggles, a stage where they routinely have failed to show up?

[ChrisConley]

All good points Fatal, but I doubt that the Cavs could beat the Celtics if LeBron missed 19 field goals in a single game. LA won game 3 with Kobe missing 19 and fading in crunchtime.

[lilgodfather1]

Real basketball fans care about this year's finals because it's about 2 TEAMS going at it, the way it should be. The increased ratings prove my point. Boston vs LA is the best rivalry in the history of basketball. Lebron vs Kobe is so NOT interesting right now. That's why I said, at what point does this get old for you guys? Talking about the same nonsense over and over again. Kobe fans are not changing their minds about Lebron, Lebron fans are not changing their minds about Kobe. Why kill each other over a discussion that's basically going nowhere.
Boston LA is so boring. The ratings are what they are because of the individual star power involved. If it was LeBron vs. Kobe (Cavs vs. LA) the ratings would be twice as much. I couldn't care less if there was not an NBA finals this year, that is how much I truly care about LA vs. Boston. I never said that I was an NBA fan, I am a Cleveland fan and will be until I die.

[lilgodfather1]

I think the biggest difference in Kobe's team and Lebron's team is a consistent #2 guy and the coach (the irony is, Mike Brown's offensive system, or lack there of, helps Lebron's stats while the triangle equal opportunity offense doesn't do the same for Kobe, so we might need to cut down the PER titles if Lebron wants to win). With Bynum playing the way he did last playoffs and how he's been since the Thunder series, there really isn't a big difference in the casts at all. Weren't we hearing all season how Lebron got the talent he needed and how deep his team was?

Maybe Lebron should bring some freaking leadership to that team instead of clowning all regular season. Maybe Lebron should give his guys drills in the off season to improve their shooting (like Kobe did with Ariza). Maybe he should curse out his team for missed defensive assignments, for not being in the right position on offense, or for not showing up in a game? You know...that might make them "tougher" come playoff time when it isn't all shits and giggles, a stage where they routinely have failed to show up?
The Cavs were deep, and hell they were talented, but look at Mo and Jamisons stats in the Celtics series. Both players shrivelled up against Boston, and those guys were supposed to be the second options. It is no coincidence when Mo had a good game we won. Not only did those two not do any thing offensively, they did not do a thing defensively.

Let's put it this way I would take Artest, Gasol, Bynum, Odom over Mo and Jamison.

[laronprofit9]

The Cavs were deep, and hell they were talented, but look at Mo and Jamisons stats in the Celtics series. Both players shrivelled up against Boston, and those guys were supposed to be the second options. It is no coincidence when Mo had a good game we won. Not only did those two not do any thing offensively, they did not do a thing defensively.

Let's put it this way I would take Artest, Gasol, Bynum, Odom over Mo and Jamison.

Against Boston, only Gasol has played well so far.

Artest and Odom have been pretty bad so far. And haven't really done much of anything.

Bynum in game 3 and 4 hasn't been so effective, but I see him playing better in game 5 since there is 2 days off now.

[madmax]

I think the biggest difference in Kobe's team and Lebron's team is a consistent #2 guy and the coach (the irony is, Mike Brown's offensive system, or lack there of, helps Lebron's stats while the triangle equal opportunity offense doesn't do the same for Kobe, so we might need to cut down the PER titles if Lebron wants to win). With Bynum playing the way he did last playoffs and how he's been since the Thunder series, there really isn't a big difference in the casts at all. Weren't we hearing all season how Lebron got the talent he needed and how deep his team was?

Maybe Lebron should bring some freaking leadership to that team instead of clowning all regular season. Maybe Lebron should give his guys drills in the off season to improve their shooting (like Kobe did with Ariza). Maybe he should curse out his team for missed defensive assignments, for not being in the right position on offense, or for not showing up in a game? You know...that might make them "tougher" come playoff time when it isn't all shits and giggles, a stage where they routinely have failed to show up?
it's not Lebron's job to make his teammates "tougher"...that's what coaches are generally paid to do and that's where Phil Jackson shines on the biggest stage for many years already. Mike Brown blows, and HE was one of the biggest reasons of Cavs shortcomings for the past couple of years. He couldn't even figure out proper defensive assignments, which was supposed to be his bread and butter...Lebron puts his teammates in a good positions to score EVERYTIME - all they have to do is make wide open shots, which they failed to do for 2 years running. He needs a better personnel and a good coach - no one can win rings with choking underperforming teams...

[Micku]

I think the biggest difference in Kobe's team and Lebron's team is a consistent #2 guy and the coach (the irony is, Mike Brown's offensive system, or lack there of, helps Lebron's stats while the triangle equal opportunity offense doesn't do the same for Kobe, so we might need to cut down the PER titles if Lebron wants to win). With Bynum playing the way he did last playoffs and how he's been since the Thunder series, there really isn't a big difference in the casts at all. Weren't we hearing all season how Lebron got the talent he needed and how deep his team was?

Didn't MJ had great PER stats or something within the triangle offensive?

And I agree to a degree. I think the Cavs have a better bench and more deeper, but I think that the Lakers have a better frontline. The Cavs are possibly a bigger team, but the Lakers execute better. But this isn't LeBron's fault I don't think, it's the coaching staff of just giving LeBron the ball and have him do everything.


Maybe Lebron should bring some freaking leadership to that team instead of clowning all regular season. Maybe Lebron should give his guys drills in the off season to improve their shooting (like Kobe did with Ariza). Maybe he should curse out his team for missed defensive assignments, for not being in the right position on offense, or for not showing up in a game? You know...that might make them "tougher" come playoff time when it isn't all shits and giggles, a stage where they routinely have failed to show up?

LeBron do curse out his teammates sometimes? I remember last year when Howard had like 3 straight dunks, LeBron got pissed and told Varejao to grab him instead of just tapping him when he dunk'd. I think most people in the league wanted to play with LeBron. During the regular season, he gets serious whenever there is a close game.

[lilgodfather1]

Against Boston, only Gasol has played well so far.

Artest and Odom have been pretty bad so far. And haven't really done much of anything.

Bynum in game 3 and 4 hasn't been so effective, but I see him playing better in game 5 since there is 2 days off now.
Artest plays great D though, and as long as he can make an open three here or there he is an upgrade to Parker. Odom is always up and down, but his defense is ten times better than Jamison and Mos combined, and he is really versatile.

[Fatal9]

All good points Fatal, but I doubt that the Cavs could beat the Celtics if LeBron missed 19 field goals in a single game. LA won game 3 with Kobe missing 19 and fading in crunchtime.
Lebron with a much worse cast while facing a better version of this Celtic team won 3 games while shooting 36%. He shot 9/23 and had 8 turnovers in the must win elimination game 6. When he shot 2/18 and had 10 turnovers it was still a last second game. And again, if Allen doesn't have the worst shooting performance of his career, we're not even having this conversation.

There is no leadership on that Cavs team. No one respects Mike Brown, and Lebron can never be the "bad guy" to put everyone in their place, or be the guy who doesn't hope his teammates play well, but demands it. The difference in his teammates play when the going gets tough is astonishing, and a lot of it simply comes down to the leadership. It's a circus for them in the regular season, they are classic front runners, and you can't win with that sort of a mindset on your team. And when your leader inexplicably gives up on the team half way through the series while still having HCA, you think the other guys are gonna go hard?

[ginobli2311]

Against Boston, only Gasol has played well so far.

Artest and Odom have been pretty bad so far. And haven't really done much of anything.

Bynum in game 3 and 4 hasn't been so effective, but I see him playing better in game 5 since there is 2 days off now.

ok...i agree with that. but you are making points for us with your post. odom/artest have been pretty bad.....farmar/brown have been pretty bad. kobe has been pretty bad......and awful in the 4th qtrs.....and the lakers are tied 2-2 and could easily be up 3-1 if kobe/gasol don't fall apart tonight in the 4th.

that is the difference in the teams........if lebron is off....the cavs lose by 30. if kobe is off....this lakers team still has a very good chance to win a single game and even the series. thats a big big big difference

also....to the people that keep claiming that lebron "chokes" in the playoffs. what are you referencing? i'll even give you this year....even though i don't think a bad game 5 is "choking"...but lets say lebron choked in the playoffs this year.....

what other year did lebron choke? he's never lost in the first round. he got the worst team ever to the nba finals, he played on of the 10 best playoff series of all time against the magic last year, he played a great game 7 in boston and came the closest team to beating the celtics in 08. he's made around 6 game winning shots in the last 5 years in the playoffs, he's made a lot of game winning assists/plays as well.......

seriously....what more do you want......are you really going to write a player off because he played poorly in 3 games out of 6 against the celtics with no help?

[ginobli2311]

Lebron with a much worse cast while facing a better version of this Celtic team won 3 games while shooting 36%. He shot 9/23 and had 8 turnovers in the must win elimination game 6. When he shot 2/18 and had 10 turnovers it was still a last second game. And again, if Allen doesn't have the worst shooting performance of his career, we're not even having this conversation.

There is no leadership on that Cavs team. No one respects Mike Brown, and Lebron can never be the "bad guy" to put everyone in their place, or be the guy who doesn't hope his teammates play well, but demands it. The difference in his teammates play when the going gets tough is astonishing, and a lot of it simply comes down to the leadership. It's a circus for them in the regular season, they are classic front runners, and you can't win with that sort of a mindset on your team. And when your leader inexplicably gives up on the team half way through the series while still having HCA, you think the other guys are gonna go hard?

i love how you leave out his 12 boards and 6 assists and the fact that he scored 32 points on 23 shots....far from terrible. you also leave out the fact that he shut down paul pierce holding pierce to 5 of 15 for 16 points.

you also leave out the fact that lebron did not have even half the talent kobe has to help him out. you can't leave the other lakers open because they will kill you. lebron played that series with his second best player being biz who averaged around 11 points and 8 boards on 40% from the field.....LOL

you also leave out the fact that lebron scored 45 points on 29 shots in the deciding game 7 in boston.

LOL.....what a joke....and again you make our points for us. lebron's overall impact on the game outside of scoring is much greater than kobe's. he physically punishes teams. he's a much better rebounder and passer and he doesn't hog the ball at all. lebron impacts the games in much more ways than kobe does overall.....or do you really think that big z/west/wally/wallace/pavlovich is better than gasol/bynum/artest/odom/fisher

[Fatal9]

^ are you stupid? where the hell did I compare his '08 cast to Kobe's cast? I was pointing out to his statement which said Lakers won despite a bad game from Kobe (as if he was carried or something, still arguably the best player on the floor, though I'll go with Fisher), that when teams and star players play defense, or when opposition inexplicably shoots like crap (Allen and his 0/13), any team can win those games no matter what the contribution from your star. And for the record I think Lebron is the better player but it isn't nearly by the margin the stats say it is, and I wouldn't know who to pick between KB, Lebron and Wade if we were heading into a tough 50/50 playoff series.

[ginobli2311]

^ are you stupid? where the hell did I compare his '08 cast to Kobe's cast? I was pointing out to his statement which said Lakers won despite a bad game from Kobe (as if he was carried or something, still arguably the best player on the floor, though I'll go with Fisher), that when teams and star players play defense, or when opposition inexplicably shoots like crap (Allen and his 0/13), any team can win those games no matter what the contribution from your star. And for the record I think Lebron is the better player but it nearly isn't by the margin the stats say it is, and I wouldn't know who to pick between KB, Lebron and Wade if we were heading into a tough 50/50 playoff series.

no...i'm not stupid....its just that the game you reference by lebron has not nearly as bad as kobe's game 3. 29 points on 29 shots vs 32 points on 23 shots. and lebron played better defense, was a better rebounder, created more for his teammates, got the cletics into foul trouble, and didn't play even worse in the 4th qtr.

the 2-18 game is a much better example of what you are talking about.

[redridinghood]

^ are you stupid? where the hell did I compare his '08 cast to Kobe's cast? I was pointing out to his statement which said Lakers won despite a bad game from Kobe (as if he was carried or something, still arguably the best player on the floor, though I'll go with Fisher), that when teams and star players play defense, or when opposition inexplicably shoots like crap (Allen and his 0/13), any team can win those games no matter what the contribution from your star. And for the record I think Lebron is the better player but it isn't nearly by the margin the stats say it is, and I wouldn't know who to pick between KB, Lebron and Wade if we were heading into a tough 50/50 playoff series.
Kobe is inferior, there I said it. I have never thought that Kobe's better than Lebron apart from his playing style.

He is indeed inferior in many ways, for example, rebounding, passing, dribbling, etc. He is also a more efficient player in a team when compared to Kobe. His jumper has improved as well which pulls his distance nearer to MJ, maybe nearer than Kobe.

As a Lakers, I'd be lying if I said I do not want Bron in my team, but do I want him replacing Kobe? Erm, not yet, I still like to watch Kobe's game, his leadership IMO exceeds Lebron's, his courage to take big shots, his hunger to win games, but mainly his finesse when playing the game.

I did not fall in love to this game because of dunks, but rather the beauty of taking the ball into the basket by utilizing your dribbling techniques. Call me old fashion but bulldozing your way through the defense still doesn't appeal to me and perhaps this is the reason why there are still so many Kobe fans outside the United States of America despite Lebron winning the last 2 league MVP titles.

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate Bron, I like him, like I said, I want him to be in the Lakers, but despite of his efficiency, I would prefer to watch Kobe taking the ball into the paint instead of Lebron just because it is more pleasing to my eyes.

Stop hating, start appreciating, Kobe's game will soon be limited to jump shots and you will only be able to watch highlight plays of Kobe's in youtube, which I think is sad because there was so much more in his game that you have missed out. The same applies to M.J., Penny, Magic, Bird, etc. as the younger generation as well as the haters will never understand why were they worshipped so much.

P.S. a little off topic but you'll get the idea.

P.P.S. Please pardon me if there's any grammatical or spelling errors as I do not come from an English speaking country.

[RedBlackAttack]

Let me preface my comments by saying that I was absolutely furious with LeBron after Games 4 & 5. He looked somewhat lost on the offensive side of the floor and seemed completely caught between passive LeBron, which is the guy that allows his teammates to create while drawing attention and 'bad offensive' LeBron, which means him not trusting his jumper enough and not able to effectively get to the hole.

The result was LeBron standing on the wing and watching his teammates fail time and again to get anything going. However, in retrospect, I don't believe that he 'gave up.' That is far too harsh.

I think that he was discouraged and confused on exactly how to attack what was a swarming, long Celtics' defense, but I don't honestly believe that he ever stopped trying. That is an unfair characterization, especially when you look at his work defensively, which included completely shutting down a Paul Pierce that dominated Orlando.

The easiest way to evaluate whether or not a guy is giving a complete effort is how he looks on defense, because that side of the floor is about 30% skill and 70% effort.

LeBron kept the heat on PP for all six games and even did a very good job on Rondo on the occasions that he was given that assignment. They just couldn't afford to make that switch, because the moment that they did make that switch full-time (most of Game 5), PP went off for the only time in the entire series.

Also, one of the main reasons that the Cavs were down 2-3 heading into Game 6 was their getting destroyed on the offensive and defensive boards. In Game 6, LeBron clearly made a concerted effort to try to control the boards. The result was 19 rebounds and, once again, rebounding tenacity tells you a lot about effort.

LeBron's body language was not good from Game 4 onward, but I credit the Cetlics' defense for eventually breaking down LeBron and the Cavs on that end of the floor and I do not believe that LeBron ever quit. There is a not-so-fine line between getting discouraged offensively and quitting on your team.


And for the record I think Lebron is the better player but it isn't nearly by the margin the stats say it is, and I wouldn't know who to pick between KB, Lebron and Wade if we were heading into a tough 50/50 playoff series.

After the Cavs-Celtics series, I may have agreed with you. I've thought that LeBron is the best player in the league for the past several years, especially the last two. Watching the Cs take away his offensive productivity, I started to second-guess myself.

But, through the first four games of this Lakers-Celtics series, I'm back to thinking that the best players in the league are LeBron and Wade with Kobe fighting it out for the third spot.

Let's be totally honest, here... If any other player in the league (especially LeBron James) had played the way Kobe has the past four games (especially in the 4th quarters), it would be the top topic on every sports show and he would be getting universally grilled for not having a 'complete' game or for 'not getting it' or whatever other cliche can be thrown out there.

Offensively speaking, Kobe has been bad... Really bad... And it now makes LeBron's 44% from the field a couple of series ago not look so bad. He still has time to make it right and I suspect that he may do just that, but I do see a clear double-standard in the media as far as what is expected from Kobe and what is expected from LeBron.

Not only is Kobe's jumper missing with staggering frequency, but it is often missing badly. The Cs have rendered his offensive arsenal almost completely impotent. It is the Lakers' length all over the floor that has them tied, at the moment.

I'm frankly shocked at how poorly Kobe has played through four games. I expected more... I wanted more. Color me disappointed. There are still potentially three games left, though. I'm hoping he eventually puts on a show, but I'm starting to have my doubts.

[laronprofit9]

Let me preface my comments by saying that I was absolutely furious with LeBron after Games 4 & 5. He looked somewhat lost on the offensive side of the floor and seemed completely caught between passive LeBron, which is the guy that allows his teammates to create while drawing attention and 'bad offensive' LeBron, which means him not trusting his jumper enough and not able to effectively get to the hole.

The result was LeBron standing on the wing and watching his teammates fail time and again to get anything going. However, in retrospect, I don't believe that he 'gave up.' That is far too harsh.

I think that he was discouraged and confused on exactly how to attack what was a swarming, long Celtics' defense, but I don't honestly believe that he ever stopped trying. That is an unfair characterization, especially when you look at his work defensively, which included completely shutting down a Paul Pierce that dominated Orlando.

The easiest way to evaluate whether or not a guy is giving a complete effort is how he looks on defense, because that side of the floor is about 30% skill and 70% effort.

LeBron kept the heat on PP for all six games and even did a very good job on Rondo on the occasions that he was given that assignment. They just couldn't afford to make that switch, because the moment that they did make that switch full-time (most of Game 5), PP went off for the only time in the entire series.

Also, one of the main reasons that the Cavs were down 2-3 heading into Game 6 was their getting destroyed on the offensive and defensive boards. In Game 6, LeBron clearly made a concerted effort to try to control the boards. The result was 19 rebounds and, once again, rebounding tenacity tells you a lot about effort.

LeBron's body language was not good from Game 4 onward, but I credit the Cetlics' defense for eventually breaking down LeBron and the Cavs on that end of the floor and I do not believe that LeBron ever quit. There is a not-so-fine line between getting discouraged offensively and quitting on your team.



After the Cavs-Celtics series, I may have agreed with you. I've thought that LeBron is the best player in the league for the past several years, especially the last two. Watching the Cs take away his offensive productivity, I started to second-guess myself.

But, through the first four games of this Lakers-Celtics series, I'm back to thinking that the best players in the league are LeBron and Wade with Kobe fighting it out for the third spot.

Let's be totally honest, here... If any other player in the league (especially LeBron James) had played the way Kobe has the past four games (especially in the 4th quarters), it would be the top topic on every sports show and he would be getting universally grilled for not having a 'complete' game or for 'not getting it' or whatever other cliche can be thrown out there.

Offensively speaking, Kobe has been bad... Really bad... And it now makes LeBron's 44% from the field a couple of series ago not look so bad. He still has time to make it right and I suspect that he may do just that, but I do see a clear double-standard in the media as far as what is expected from Kobe and what is expected from LeBron.

Not only is Kobe's jumper missing with staggering frequency, but it is often missing badly. The Cs has rendered his offensive arsenal almost completely impotent. It is the Lakers' length all over the floor that has them tied, at the moment.

I'm frankly shocked at how poorly Kobe has played through four games. I expected more... I wanted more. Color me disappointed. There are still potentially three games left, though. I'm hoping he eventually puts on a show, but I'm starting to have my doubts.

I don't think it was Kobe's intention either, to get the ball with 4 seconds on the shot clock, and be forced to take a 26 foot fallaway three pointer by the baseline while being undercutted by Tony Allen and accidently Kickin him in the neck.

Kobe has been getting the ball in just stupid situations, that has hurt his fg%. Lets just say the Cavs are looking to throw the ball into Lebron more than the Lakers are looking to the ball into Kobe.

As a result, the quality of possessions of each player is getting is far different. Lebron gets the ball far earlier in the shot clock, giving him more time to do his thing. Kobe is getting the ball with the shot clock runnign down, having to rush his thing. :rant

[ginobli2311]

Let me preface my comments by saying that I was absolutely furious with LeBron after Games 4 & 5. He looked somewhat lost on the offensive side of the floor and seemed completely caught between passive LeBron, which is the guy that allows his teammates to create while drawing attention and 'bad offensive' LeBron, which means him not trusting his jumper enough and not able to effectively get to the hole.

The result was LeBron standing on the wing and watching his teammates fail time and again to get anything going. However, in retrospect, I don't believe that he 'gave up.' That is far too harsh.

I think that he was discouraged and confused on exactly how to attack what was a swarming, long Celtics' defense, but I don't honestly believe that he ever stopped trying. That is an unfair characterization, especially when you look at his work defensively, which included completely shutting down a Paul Pierce that dominated Orlando.

The easiest way to evaluate whether or not a guy is giving a complete effort is how he looks on defense, because that side of the floor is about 30% skill and 70% effort.

LeBron kept the heat on PP for all six games and even did a very good job on Rondo on the occasions that he was given that assignment. They just couldn't afford to make that switch, because the moment that they did make that switch full-time (most of Game 5), PP went off for the only time in the entire series.

Also, one of the main reasons that the Cavs were down 2-3 heading into Game 6 was their getting destroyed on the offensive and defensive boards. In Game 6, LeBron clearly made a concerted effort to try to control the boards. The result was 19 rebounds and, once again, rebounding tenacity tells you a lot about effort.

LeBron's body language was not good from Game 4 onward, but I credit the Cetlics' defense for eventually breaking down LeBron and the Cavs on that end of the floor and I do not believe that LeBron ever quit. There is a not-so-fine line between getting discouraged offensively and quitting on your team.



After the Cavs-Celtics series, I may have agreed with you. I've thought that LeBron is the best player in the league for the past several years, especially the last two. Watching the Cs take away his offensive productivity, I started to second-guess myself.

But, through the first four games of this Lakers-Celtics series, I'm back to thinking that the best players in the league are LeBron and Wade with Kobe fighting it out for the third spot.

Let's be totally honest, here... If any other player in the league (especially LeBron James) had played the way Kobe has the past four games (especially in the 4th quarters), it would be the top topic on every sports show and he would be getting universally grilled for not having a 'complete' game or for 'not getting it' or whatever other cliche can be thrown out there.

Offensively speaking, Kobe has been bad... Really bad... And it now makes LeBron's 44% from the field a couple of series ago not look so bad. He still has time to make it right and I suspect that he may do just that, but I do see a clear double-standard in the media as far as what is expected from Kobe and what is expected from LeBron.

Not only is Kobe's jumper missing with staggering frequency, but it is often missing badly. The Cs has rendered his offensive arsenal almost completely impotent. It is the Lakers' length all over the floor that has them tied, at the moment.

I'm frankly shocked at how poorly Kobe has played through four games. I expected more... I wanted more. Color me disappointed. There are still potentially three games left, though. I'm hoping he eventually puts on a show, but I'm starting to have my doubts.


well said. i definitely agree with you about lebron "giving up"....its been way overblown. lebron was just not himself that game....who knows the reasons....he might have just been "off"....he was missing everything....so why should he keep shooting if he's way off? he still attacked enough to get 12 free throw attempts and he didn't dominate the ball and still had 7 assists. he played a really bad game....but i have a really hard time calling the dude a quitter because he missed jump shots and did not continue shooting. lebron's defense on pierce in the series is also missing from any analysis. lebron did a better job through six games than artest has done in these first four.

so kobe is not a quitter because he shot 29 jumpers when he was way off? i don't get it.

i bolded your last paragraph. the thing is.....kobe has always played poorly in the finals and has always played poorly against good defenses. for his career....kobe has shot under 40% in 16 games out of 34 games in the nba finals. he is playing right in line with how he always does....this year and series is no exception....and that is where the double standard comes in.....because people ignore it with kobe for some reason.

its just laughable when you turn on espn tonight and stuart scott is talking about how kobe's teammates have to play better and give him more help. really? how about kobe not play like ass in three straight 4th qtrs....or how about kobe actually move the damn ball offensively.....or how about giving some credit to gasol/bynum for playing so well so far. really? its his team? the celtics aren't even doubling him much at all....they are leaving ray allen on an island and he's forcing kobe to take a ton of bad shots.

for some reason fans and the media alike have an agenda with kobe. i just go off what i see. if kobe turns it around and plays better i will give him credit....but so far he's been really bad in this series.

[RedBlackAttack]

I don't think it was Kobe's intention either, to get the ball with 4 seconds on the shot clock, and be forced to take a 26 foot fallaway three pointer by the baseline while being undercutted by Tony Allen and accidently Kickin him in the neck.

Kobe has been getting the ball in just stupid situations, that has hurt his fg%. Lets just say the Cavs are looking to throw the ball into Lebron more than the Lakers are looking to the ball into Kobe.

As a result, the quality of possessions of each player is getting is far different. Lebron gets the ball far earlier in the shot clock, giving him more time to do his thing. Kobe is getting the ball with the shot clock runnign down, having to rush his thing. :rant
Are there occasions that Kobe is given the ball late in the shot clock and asked to create? Sure. But, those instances account for maybe three or four of his missed shots during the course of a game (and I'm being kind). That does not explain shooting >40% in a series.

I realize you are probably a fan and there is part of you that wants to believe that Kobe's horrid offensive game thus far is the product of his teammates' inadequacies, but let's not kid ourselves, here... Kobe has been really bad.

Let's not hold him to a different standard than the other superstar players in this league. LeBron is also often given the ball late in the shot clock and told 'score.'

Hell... Cleveland's entire offensive scheme much of the time is to give LeBron the ball and told to just 'score,' all but 1-on-5. He is still able to have relatively respectable efficiency, even against the really good defensive teams.

[ginobli2311]

Are there occasions that Kobe is given the ball late in the shot clock and asked to create? Sure. But, those instances account for maybe three or four of his missed shots during the course of a game (and I'm being kind). That does not explain shooting >40% in a series.

I realize you are probably a fan and there is part of you that wants to believe that Kobe's horrid offensive game thus far is the product of his teammates' inadequacies, but let's not kid ourselves, here... Kobe has been really bad.

Let's not hold him to a different standard than the other superstar players in this league. LeBron is also often given the ball late in the shot clock and told 'score.'

Hell... Cleveland's entire offensive scheme much of the time is to give LeBron the ball and told to just 'score,' all but 1-on-5. He is still able to have relatively respectable efficiency, even against the really good defensive teams.

damn...thats a great post. i'm a huge mavs fan and dirk is my favorite player. i can't tell you how often the ball ends up in dirk's hands with 5 seconds on the shot clock. it happens to every star player just as much as it happens to kobe

[RedBlackAttack]

the thing is.....kobe has always played poorly in the finals and has always played poorly against good defenses. for his career....kobe has shot under 40% in 16 games out of 34 games in the nba finals. he is playing right in line with how he always does....this year and series is no exception....and that is where the double standard comes in.....because people ignore it with kobe for some reason.


That is the thing, though... I really thought that this was the year that Kobe has his 'moment' in the Finals to cement his legacy on the world's biggest basketball stage. I'm not talking about one or two memorable plays or one or two pretty good games... I'm talking about the kind of series-long domination of a good defensive team that should be expected out of a guy that is considered a Top 15 all-time player.

I'm talking about Kobe controlling a series, the way he did against Utah and PHX. I really thought that this was the year. With the team that the Lakers have and the advantages that they have with their length and Gasol underneath, the stage seemed set for Kobe to unload his full arsenal and put on a show.

Yes... He has struggled in Finals in the past, but this year seemed different. He wasn't forcing the issue against PHX or Utah. He was allowing the game to come to him and the result was some masterful performances, especially late in games. I was really looking forward to this Finals, because Boston is still good enough defensively (which Orlando wasn't) for Kobe to have his great moment for a great offensive player against a great defensive team.

We've seen possibly Kobe's worst Finals performance to date. In light of how he has played, I'm pretty surprised that the series is 2-2. I guess, on the other side of the floor, PP, KG, and Ray have been inconsistent enough to cancel out Kobe's play thus far.

But, yeah... Even in light of his past struggles in the Finals, I'm shocked about this one. Wow.

[chopchop20]

Where is LeBron? :cry:

[ginobli2311]

That is the thing, though... I really thought that this was the year that Kobe has his 'moment' in the Finals to cement his legacy on the world's biggest basketball stage. I'm not talking about one or two memorable plays or one or two pretty good games... I'm talking about the kind of series-long domination of a good defensive team that should be expected out of a guy that is considered a Top 15 all-time player.

I'm talking about Kobe controlling a series, the way he did against Utah and PHX. I really thought that this was the year. With the team that the Lakers have and the advantages that they have with their length and Gasol underneath, the stage seemed set for Kobe to unload his full arsenal and put on a show.

Yes... He has struggled in Finals in the past, but this year seemed different. He wasn't forcing the issue against PHX or Utah. He was allowing the game to come to him and the result was some masterful performances, especially late in games. I was really looking forward to this Finals, because Boston is still good enough defensively (which Orlando wasn't) for Kobe to have his great moment for a great offensive player against a great defensive team.

We've seen possibly Kobe's worst Finals performance to date. In light of how he has played, I'm pretty surprised that the series is 2-2. I guess, on the other side of the floor, PP, KG, and Ray have been inconsistent enough to cancel out Kobe's play thus far.

But, yeah... Even in light of his past struggles in the Finals, I'm shocked about this one. Wow.

i felt the exact same way. the thing that makes me so made is that the last three games have been right there for him to take over and control the game in the 4th qtr....but instead of having iconic performances....kobe has been dreadful down the stretch in the last 3 games.

i'm surprised that the lakers are tied with kobe playing this poorly also. but when you step back.....it took derek fisher taking over a game in boston and ray allen to miss 13 straight shots....8 of which were very very good looks. even with fisher going off.....the celtics win that game if ray makes 3 of 13....and they win easily if he makes 6-13 like he normally does. and it was just blind luck that ray missed those shots.....i respect fisher for what he did....but the other half of the equation is just blind luck.

hopefully kobe turns it around or at least steps up in a 4th qtr at some point. who knows......there is no reason why kobe should be struggling this much with the team he has around him. not one.

[ginobli2311]

Where is LeBron? :cry:

where is kobe playing with guys like mo and jamison? how did he do in the playoffs? oh wait...he couldnt even make the playoffs with butler and odom.....hahahahahahahahahaahha. couldnt even make the playoffs. LOL.

[chazzy]

where is kobe playing with guys like mo and jamison? how did he do in the playoffs? oh wait...he couldnt even make the playoffs with butler and odom.....hahahahahahahahahaahha. couldnt even make the playoffs. LOL.

There you go again :sleeping

[Sarcastic]

Lebron > Kobe.

I thought this was common knowledge already.

[RedBlackAttack]

Where is LeBron? :cry:
I assume at home... likely pondering his future while casually watching the Finals. It doesn't really matter, because this has almost nothing to do with LeBron -- with the exception of the occasional comparison to media treatment of the two players.

But, at the end of the day, this is about Kobe. Go back and read my comments about LeBron during and after the Cavs-Celts series. Trust me... they weren't flattering. I just call them like I see them and I've been hugely disappointed by Bryant thus far.

[ginobli2311]

There you go again :sleeping

just posting with the same absurdity that choco is. two can play that game.

[chazzy]

just posting with the same absurdity that choco is. two can play that game.

So you respond to trolling by trolling yourself.. why not just ignore it instead of sounding like an idiot

[ginobli2311]

So you respond to trolling by trolling yourself.. why not just ignore it instead of sounding like an idiot

because it just feels so good sometimes....but shouldn't. i can't argue with you.

[catch24]

the thing is.....kobe has always played poorly in the finals and has always played poorly against good defenses. for his career....kobe has shot under 40% in 16 games out of 34 games in the nba finals. he is playing right in line with how he always does....this year and series is no exception....and that is where the double standard comes in.....because people ignore it with kobe for some reason.

As a Kobe/Lakers fan, I actually agree with this. If you remember, this very same board was going bananas watching Kobe tear up Utah/Phoenix. "Man Kobe is so awesome", "Kobe is easily better than LeBron", "Kobe is Jordan's equal" etc. I responded time and time again, "lets use some perspective, look at the DEFENSES he was facing." Watching Boston's D (who did a great job on LeBron by the way) and reviewing Kobe's past against formidable defenses, you almost KNEW he was going to play mediocre. 16/34 games shooting 40%, really? ESPN won't dare show those numbers...half of their ratings would go to sh*t.

[ginobli2311]

As a Kobe/Lakers fan, I actually agree with this. If you remember, this very same board was going bananas watching Kobe tear up Utah/Phoenix. "Man Kobe is so awesome", "Kobe is easily better than LeBron", "Kobe is Jordan's equal" etc. I responded time and time again, "lets use some perspective, look at the DEFENSES he was facing." Watching Boston's D (who did a great job on LeBron by the way) and reviewing Kobe's past against formidable defenses, you almost KNEW he was going to play mediocre. 16/34 games shooting 40%, really? ESPN won't dare show those numbers...half of their ratings would go to sh*t.

those numbers are 16 of 34 under 40%....i believe he's shot exactly 40% twice. that would put it at 18 of 34 at or below 40%.

that is why i constantly said to tap the breaks while kobe was playing well against the jazz/suns. i honestly thought kobe would be better than this....but its not the numbers that are really that bad. its been the 4th qtrs.....kobe had shot 5-20 through the first three games and he was a complete non factor until the last 3 minutes of the 4th last night.....and he had the game losing turnover/layup with 50 seconds left. star players should not play that poorly in crunch time in the nba finals......no excuses.

[chazzy]

As a Kobe/Lakers fan, I actually agree with this. If you remember, this very same board was going bananas watching Kobe tear up Utah/Phoenix. "Man Kobe is so awesome", "Kobe is easily better than LeBron", "Kobe is Jordan's equal" etc. I responded time and time again, "lets use some perspective, look at the DEFENSES he was facing." Watching Boston's D (who did a great job on LeBron by the way) and reviewing Kobe's past against formidable defenses, you almost KNEW he was going to play mediocre. 16/34 games shooting 40%, really? ESPN won't dare show those numbers...half of their ratings would go to sh*t.

I remember telling Laker fans who were ripping Lebron that Kobe could just as easily have as bad of a series. And yeah, it was pretty predictable that he wouldn't be shooting a great percentage in the Finals, but I didn't think it would at 41%. He looked like he was in a great rhythm in the WCF, shooting really well from the perimeter... and while people may cite PHX defense as being the reason why he shot 52%, a lot of his shots were actually long contested jumpers that he was forced to take. The difference with Boston is not only better all around d, but his shot selection as well. He's settling for tough jumpers much more often, and it's not easy to get into a rhythm that way.

[RazorBaLade]

where is kobe playing with guys like mo and jamison? how did he do in the playoffs? oh wait...he couldnt even make the playoffs with butler and odom.....hahahahahahahahahaahha. couldnt even make the playoffs. LOL.

are u honestly comparing lebrons team to kobes team in 05....

[catch24]

those numbers are 16 of 34 under 40%....i believe he's shot exactly 40% twice. that would put it at 18 of 34 at or below 40%.

that is why i constantly said to tap the breaks while kobe was playing well against the jazz/suns. i honestly thought kobe would be better than this....but its not the numbers that are really that bad. its been the 4th qtrs.....kobe had shot 5-20 through the first three games and he was a complete non factor until the last 3 minutes of the 4th last night.....and he had the game losing turnover/layup with 50 seconds left. star players should not play that poorly in crunch time in the nba finals......no excuses.

Oh man, wow. You're right, there are no more excuses. Dude is 31 in what, his 7th Final appearance? I've been WAITING for that breakout game. Seriously just waiting until this dude goes on a scoring spree...but at this point, it I don't anymore. If he hasn't done it in 4 games already, well...

[ginobli2311]

are u honestly comparing lebrons team to kobes team in 05....

no....i just said that to shut up choco.

are you honestly still complaining about officials being the reason the lakers are tied 2-2?

[RazorBaLade]

no....i just said that to shut up choco.

are you honestly still complaining about officials being the reason the lakers are tied 2-2?

o. and where did I complain about the officials today? I kept it to myself if people don't realize that there are some strange strange calls going on then I won't waste my time plus im hella tired today. maybe ill complain tomorrow

[ginobli2311]

I remember telling Laker fans who were ripping Lebron that Kobe could just as easily have as bad of a series. And yeah, it was pretty predictable that he wouldn't be shooting a great percentage in the Finals, but I didn't think it would at 41%. He looked like he was in a great rhythm in the WCF, shooting really well from the perimeter... and while people may cite PHX defense as being the reason why he shot 52%, a lot of his shots were actually long contested jumpers that he was forced to take. The difference with Boston is not only better all around d, but his shot selection as well. He's settling for tough jumpers much more often, and it's not easy to get into a rhythm that way.

dead on. but that is why its so unfair to rank individual players largely based on team accomplishments. so what if the lakers win this series and kobe shoots 40% and plays poorly in the 4th qtrs like he has in the first four games? We should now rank him higher than shaq/duncan because he won another title?

I know this isn't a thread about all time rankings....but this series is a perfect example of why context is so important.

[catch24]

I remember telling Laker fans who were ripping Lebron that Kobe could just as easily have as bad of a series. And yeah, it was pretty predictable that he wouldn't be shooting a great percentage in the Finals, but I didn't think it would at 41%. He looked like he was in a great rhythm in the WCF, shooting really well from the perimeter... and while people may cite PHX defense as being the reason why he shot 52%, a lot of his shots were actually long contested jumpers that he was forced to take. The difference with Boston is not only better all around d, but his shot selection as well. He's settling for tough jumpers much more often, and it's not easy to get into a rhythm that way.

95% of his attempts this series have been on long/contested jumpers. It's lame. At one point when is this dude gonna say say f*ck it, I'm putting my head down and taking it in strong. For me, it's almost as if he's giving Boston's D too much respect. Kobe looks rattled out there IMO.

[chazzy]

Oh man, wow. You're right, there are no more excuses. Dude is 31 in what, his 7th Final appearance? I've been WAITING for that breakout game. Seriously just waiting until this dude goes on a scoring spree...but at this point, it might not happen. If he hasn't done it for 4 games, well...

Especially with the heavy minutes he's playing right now.. he could start off hot but just get gassed by the 4th quarter.



95% of his attempts this series have been on long/contested jumpers. It's lame. At one when is this gonna say say f*ck it, I'm putting my head down and taking it in strong. For me, it's almost as if he's giving Boston's D too much respect. Kobe looks rattled out there IMO.

Well in G1, the Lakers actually got a lot of penetration.. so I think Boston adjusted and made it tougher to get inside. That why you'll see Pau open more often out on the wing, his man is usually shading.

[RazorBaLade]

on the finals kobe pct thing, I honestly think he wants to play great SO much that its getting in the way. I have proof to support this, if anyone remembers at some point during the 4th or 3rd quarter not sure Kobe made 2 3's in a row or something, then missed 1 or 2? After the missed one there was a time out, kobe sitting on the bench furious and i THINK it was fisher that was standing/kneeling next to him just holding his shoulders and talking non stop I don't know what was said but I have a feeling it has to do with that.

I just don't know how else to explain it, you don't suddenly go from amazing cf games to poor finals games. Its hard to watch, theres nothin he nor any laker fan want more than kobe to freaking explode like we ALLLLLLL know he can and has in other series.

[ginobli2311]

Especially with the heavy minutes he's playing right now.. he could start off hot but just get gassed by the 4th quarter.

i know...i'm really starting to get worried. i have a ton of money on the lakers to win the title at really good odds. i will be able to hedge out of a lot of it....but damn.....the lakers should not lose this series. the scary thing is that the lakers really should be down 3-1. thank god for derek fisher taking over in game 3 and ray allen going ice cold....because damn....i don't think the lakers would be able to come back from 3-1 against this team.

[ginobli2311]

on the finals kobe pct thing, I honestly think he wants to play great SO much that its getting in the way. I have proof to support this, if anyone remembers at some point during the 4th or 3rd quarter not sure Kobe made 2 3's in a row or something, then missed 1 or 2? After the missed one there was a time out, kobe sitting on the bench furious and i THINK it was fisher that was standing/kneeling next to him just holding his shoulders and talking non stop I don't know what was said but I have a feeling it has to do with that.

I just don't know how else to explain it, you don't suddenly go from amazing cf games to poor finals games. Its hard to watch, theres nothin he nor any laker fan want more than kobe to freaking explode like we ALLLLLLL know he can and has in other series.

i totally agree. but i am a little harder on kobe than you. he has let his personal goals outweigh his teams goals at times throughout his career. and that is something i don't respect at all.

but kobe did the exact same thing in 08 razor. the exact same thing. he was hot and then got owned by this team.....its just a bad matchup for him and he refuses to play team ball.

[catch24]

Well in G1, the Lakers actually got a lot of penetration.. so I think Boston adjusted and made it tougher to get inside. That why you'll see Pau open more often out on the wing, his man is usually shading.

I still think he's settling way too much though. We'll see what happens, but I'll be waiting on that "special game" :pimp:

[RedBlackAttack]

I remember telling Laker fans who were ripping Lebron that Kobe could just as easily have as bad of a series. And yeah, it was pretty predictable that he wouldn't be shooting a great percentage in the Finals, but I didn't think it would at 41%. He looked like he was in a great rhythm in the WCF, shooting really well from the perimeter... and while people may cite PHX defense as being the reason why he shot 52%, a lot of his shots were actually long contested jumpers that he was forced to take. The difference with Boston is not only better all around d, but his shot selection as well. He's settling for tough jumpers much more often, and it's not easy to get into a rhythm that way.
Honestly... Statistics and numbers aren't even the thing that sticks out most. It isn't like you are watching the games and Kobe seems like a dominant player and you look at the boxscore and say, "Wow... He is shooting poorly."

The thing that sticks out most is just how bad he looks. He is having a hard time fighting through the ball denial, often times. He isn't able to explode past defenders with any kind of regularity and, when he does get into the paint, he is often leaving his feet without a clear idea of attack, which results in turnovers. His jumpers are often low-percentage and contested, unable to get separation with his step-back or fade-aways. And, even when he gets open looks, he is often missing badly.

Lastly, his production in crunch-time, with the game on the line in three of the four games, he has been either invisible or just bad.

If you knew nothing about either team and you were watching basketball for the first time, you simply would not believe that Kobe was considered one of the Top 3 players in the NBA and one of the Top 20 players of all-time if someone told you that.

I'm really scratching my head. Boston has an excellent defense and they are very good at taking away a Option A & B, making teams go to Option C and beyond, but there are no explanations for Kobe's first four games of this series.

[RazorBaLade]

The only way for the Lakers to truly function as a team is for Kobe to be Kobe though, so I dunno if its the homer in me talking but I'd take my chances with Kobe trying to be Kobe and having the rest of the team do what they have to do to fit under what he's doing, instead of having him only take a few shots a quarter and possibly simply not be ready during those certain 4th quarter stints where they all give him the ball and back away.

team would be so much better if we weren't full of lil girls, odom doesn't start attacking until the team is in a big hole, WHY DOES PAU NOT SHOOT 10 JUMP SHOTS A GAME? he makes 1, makes it look easy, gets the ball again, passes quickly out and doesnt shoot for another 5 min.

[RazorBaLade]

Honestly... Statistics and numbers aren't even the thing that sticks out most. It isn't like you are watching the games and Kobe seems like a dominant player and you look at the boxscore and say, "Wow... He is shooting poorly."

The thing that sticks out most is just how bad he looks. He is having a hard time fighting through the ball denial, often times. He isn't able to explode past defenders with any kind of regularity and, when he does get into the paint, he is often leaving his feet without a clear idea of attack, which results in turnovers. His jumpers are often low-percentage and contested, unable to get separation with his step-back or fade-aways. And, even when he gets open looks, he is often missing badly.

Lastly, his production in crunch-time, with the game on the line in three of the four games, he has been either invisible or just bad.

If you knew nothing about either team and you were watching basketball for the first time, you simply would not believe that Kobe was considered one of the Top 3 players in the NBA and one of the Top 20 players of all-time if someone told you that.

I'm really scratching my head. Boston has an excellent defense and they are very good at taking away a Option A & B, making teams go to Option C and beyond, but there are no explanations for Kobe's first four games of this series.

if u just look at the game knowing nothing but what you see, u scratch your head at how the lakers are even in the finals man. Hollywood style I guess

[Courtside View]

on the finals kobe pct thing, I honestly think he wants to play great SO much that its getting in the way. I have proof to support this, if anyone remembers at some point during the 4th or 3rd quarter not sure Kobe made 2 3's in a row or something, then missed 1 or 2? After the missed one there was a time out, kobe sitting on the bench furious and i THINK it was fisher that was standing/kneeling next to him just holding his shoulders and talking non stop I don't know what was said but I have a feeling it has to do with that.

I just don't know how else to explain it, you don't suddenly go from amazing cf games to poor finals games. Its hard to watch, theres nothin he nor any laker fan want more than kobe to freaking explode like we ALLLLLLL know he can and has in other series.

See I don't know anything like that. I know he can explode at certain times, against certain competition but are you willfully ignoring shooting sub 40% in 16 Finals appearances? I believe someone else said he shot 40% in two other games so it would make shooting 40% or below in 18 out of 36 games or half of them.

Given that, why should I concede that I "know he can". Based on his performances so far, this is pretty much what I expected. Maybe he shoots 50+% in one game or so, but that's pretty much the best I thought he would do.

[RazorBaLade]

See I don't know anything like that. I know he can explode at certain times, against certain competition but are you willfully ignoring shooting sub 40% in 16 Finals appearances? I believe someone else said he shot 40% in two other games so it would make shooting 40% or below in 18 out of 36 games or half of them.

Given that, why should I concede that I "know he can". Based on his performances so far, this is pretty much what I expected. Maybe he shoots 50+% in one game or so, but that's pretty much the best I thought he would do.

because he did it at every stage except the finals. Unless you simply don't want him too, you gotta understand that he's simply over-due for a player of his caliber (judging off every stage besides finals) to have a good damn game.

[catch24]

Honestly... Statistics and numbers aren't even the thing that sticks out most. It isn't like you are watching the games and Kobe seems like a dominant player and you look at the boxscore and say, "Wow... He is shooting poorly."

The thing that sticks out most is just how bad he looks. He is having a hard time fighting through the ball denial, often times. He isn't able to explode past defenders with any kind of regularity and, when he does get into the paint, he is often leaving his feet without a clear idea of attack, which results in turnovers. His jumpers are often low-percentage and contested, unable to get separation with his step-back or fade-aways. And, even when he gets open looks, he is often missing badly.

Lastly, his production in crunch-time, with the game on the line in three of the four games, he has been either invisible or just bad.

If you knew nothing about either team and you were watching basketball for the first time, you simply would not believe that Kobe was considered one of the Top 3 players in the NBA and one of the Top 20 players of all-time if someone told you that.

I'm really scratching my head. Boston has an excellent defense and they are very good at taking away a Option A & B, making teams go to Option C and beyond, but there are no explanations for Kobe's first four games of this series.

Well put, couldn't have said it any better.

[ginobli2311]

The only way for the Lakers to truly function as a team is for Kobe to be Kobe though, so I dunno if its the homer in me talking but I'd take my chances with Kobe trying to be Kobe and having the rest of the team do what they have to do to fit under what he's doing, instead of having him only take a few shots a quarter and possibly simply not be ready during those certain 4th quarter stints where they all give him the ball and back away.

team would be so much better if we weren't full of lil girls, odom doesn't start attacking until the team is in a big hole, WHY DOES PAU NOT SHOOT 10 JUMP SHOTS A GAME? he makes 1, makes it look easy, gets the ball again, passes quickly out and doesnt shoot for another 5 min.

i agree to an extent. but if you let gasol/bynum and odom shoot the ball more....or at least touch the ball more i think the lakers are better.

kobe has taken 93 shots and 27 threes and 29 free throws in 4 games this series....now...contrast that with the jazz series where the lakers looked the best they have all playoffs

kobe took 88 shots and 12 threes and 38 free throws in 4 games against the jazz.

kobe is settling for bad shots. he's not attacking...and worst of all.....he's not creating shots for his teammates and getting the defense to collapse. its really just blind luck that the lakers aren't down 3-1. if kobe is going to have the ball in his hands this much....he has to either make shots, attack the rim, or create scoring opportunities for his team. he's doing none of the above well so far......and he's doing even worse in crunch time.

i just don't ****ing get it. ugh.......

[Courtside View]

because he did it at every stage except the finals. Unless you simply don't want him too, you gotta understand that he's simply over-due for a player of his caliber (judging off every stage besides finals) to have a good damn game.

Maybe if you're his fan, or haven't been paying close attention to his career. The last great defensive team I remember him playing great against was SA, and that was during the Shaq era where Shaq was beastly and drawing all kinds of attention. Yes, he was very good against the Spurs a couple of years ago but that squad paled against the defensive giant Spurs teams of years past. So given that, and his propensity to also not play up to standards in the Finals, I expected this. Utah and Phoenix ain't Boston. As for being "overdue", I don't think in those terms. I take evidence based on what has happened rather than what "could" and "should" happen.

[RazorBaLade]

Maybe if you're his fan, or haven't been paying close attention to his career. The last great defensive team I remember him playing great against was SA, and that was during the Shaq era where Shaq was beastly and drawing all kinds of attention. Yes, he was very good against the Spurs a couple of years ago but that squad paled against the defensive giant Spurs teams of years past. So given that, and his propensity to also not play up to standards in the Finals, I expected this. Utah and Phoenix ain't Boston. As for being "overdue", I don't think in those terms. I take evidence based on what has happened rather than what "could" and "should" happen.

I have trouble believing that defense is the difference between a missed shot and a made shot. When you on, you're on. But thats my opinion a lot of people probably don't agree with it so I see your point I just disagree.

[ginobli2311]

I have trouble believing that defense is the difference between a missed shot and a made shot. When you on, you're on. But thats my opinion a lot of people probably don't agree with it so I see your point I just disagree.

yea...i understand what you are saying. and if this had only happened once before i would agree with you. but this is the third time this has happened to kobe in the finals coming off playing "hot" against the west. hell....even last year he didn't play that great in the finals offensively (not one game over 47% from the field) and he was pretty bad down the stretch of the close games as well.

thats why i constantly say context context context. i like kobe a lot....but these top 5 player of all time threads need to slow down when you study how kobe has actually played in a lot of big moments.

[Andrei89]

LeBron quit when it was 2-2 against Boston. Kobe's gonna give it his all on Sunday.

That's what they said about Lebron

[Courtside View]

I have trouble believing that defense is the difference between a missed shot and a made shot. When you on, you're on. But thats my opinion a lot of people probably don't agree with it so I see your point I just disagree.

So how many Finals series do we have to wait before we can draw any conclusions? Or do we just keep saying "Eh, he's just missing shots that's all" and ignore it?

If it was a game here and there mixed with mostly great ones, I could see your point. As is, I can't.

[blacknapalm]

best discussion on here in a long time. keep it up, fellas. like ginobili, i'm a huge proponent of context. people bring up barkley being ringless but i felt management in philadelphia never fully took advantage of his talents and built a strong team around him. i don't know if it's a media/cultural thing, but at the end of the day, the superstar will get all the credit if he wins and get all the blame if he loses.

i might add something later. i literally just posed a long message on another board with a similar topic. plus, i'm tired. *yawn*

[RazorBaLade]

So how many Finals series do we have to wait before we can draw any conclusions? Or do we just keep saying "Eh, he's just missing shots that's all" and ignore it?

If it was a game here and there mixed with mostly great ones, I could see your point. As is, I can't.

this one. If he wins this year and doesn't have at least 1 great game, he's really not moving up on the all time list at all. Its now or never these are the possible outcomes imo (considering that right now, general opinion is that kobe is 10th all time)

plays great n wins jumps to Around 7
plays bad and wins probably goes down to 11,12
plays bad and loses........ I don't even wanna talk about it

i think that for him to be in the conversation for GOAT legit, maybe not amongst general populace but like kareem is now hes kind of in the convo amongst big nba fans.. He has to make up for 2 finals series and he has to start on sunday.

[ginobli2311]

best discussion on here in a long time. keep it up, fellas. like ginobili, i'm a huge proponent of context. people bring up barkley being ringless but i felt management in philadelphia never fully took advantage of his talents and built a strong team around him. i don't know if it's a media/cultural thing, but at the end of the day, the superstar will get all the credit if he wins and get all the blame if he loses.

totally agree. that is why i try to focus most of my attention on how a player played the game when doing my rankings.....because it makes no sense to weigh team accomplishments heavily in individual comparisons.....and really thats just another way of saying that you have to put things into context.

it goes both ways though. if the lakers lose this series......and kobe continues to play poorly. i'm not going to drop kobe from his number 13 spot i have him at all time. kobe has already proven enough to me over 14 years and this series does not change my thoughts about him at all. he's a ****ing great player that has been pretty damn amazing in 11 of his 14 years. just like i'm not going to say that kobe is better than shaq/duncan if he wins this title. like i said....i have seen enough out of kobe in 14 years to form my opinion on him.

i think we live in such a "prisoner of the moment" media/internet world the things are either "the greatest ever" or "the worst ever" far too often. this board is a perfect example....in these playoffs alone. kobe has gone from "being done" against the thunder to "being possibly the GOAT" against the suns/jazz......yes....that happened....even magic johnson/wilbon/mark jackson and many many other tv guys and old players were saying that......now....kobe has reverted back to "can't play well in the finals" against the celtics. the truth....as always....is somewhere in the middle of all this hype and proclamations. i just wish we could enjoy these players and games without trying to make everything either "great" or "terrible".......

[ginobli2311]

this one. If he wins this year and doesn't have at least 1 great game, he's really not moving up on the all time list at all. Its now or never these are the possible outcomes imo (considering that right now, general opinion is that kobe is 10th all time)

plays great n wins jumps to Around 7
plays bad and wins probably goes down to 11,12
plays bad and loses........ I don't even wanna talk about it

i think that for him to be in the conversation for GOAT legit, maybe not amongst general populace but like kareem is now hes kind of in the convo amongst big nba fans.. He has to make up for 2 finals series and he has to start on sunday.

you are really going to let one series dictate that much when kobe has now played for 14 years?

[RazorBaLade]

you are really going to let one series dictate that much when kobe has now played for 14 years?

i think a ring this year if he plays great should move him up to 8 or so yes. But the goat stuff like I said it would take 2 rings with great playoff runs and good games from here on out.

[cteach111]

95% of his attempts this series have been on long/contested jumpers. It's lame. At one point when is this dude gonna say say f*ck it, I'm putting my head down and taking it in strong. For me, it's almost as if he's giving Boston's D too much respect. Kobe looks rattled out there IMO.

hes definitely reverted to his perimeter game again. In game 1, it didn't matter if the Celtics were swatting his shots, he was still driving to the basket.

[SprtsTmeMachine]

it is no use debating w/ closed minded ppl from either side... has ne one actually changed their opinion bc a solid post by other users?

[Simple Jack]

^ are you stupid? where the hell did I compare his '08 cast to Kobe's cast? I was pointing out to his statement which said Lakers won despite a bad game from Kobe (as if he was carried or something, still arguably the best player on the floor, though I'll go with Fisher), that when teams and star players play defense, or when opposition inexplicably shoots like crap (Allen and his 0/13), any team can win those games no matter what the contribution from your star. And for the record I think Lebron is the better player but it isn't nearly by the margin the stats say it is, and I wouldn't know who to pick between KB, Lebron and Wade if we were heading into a tough 50/50 playoff series.

Didn't you say that LeBron was playing on Jordan Prime level? A couple of bad games and your opinion sways like the wind.

[sixer6ad]

LBJ - lose the talcum toss, cut out the 20-minute pre-game handshakes and 1/2 court tosses, the grand entrance...and win a title. It's that simple.

[chopchop20]

Kobe was obviously tired last night...

[BallPhunk]

*Yawn*

Same f*cking topic over and over and over again. At what point will you get bored of talking about this? That's the biggest question on my mind. Will it ever get old for you trolls? I think not.


Bingo.

The day I spend any time in a troll thread, waiting to reply "I totally agree, 37% vs 44 blah blah" or the even better ":applause: I want to know too...", is the day I know I'm not enjoying basketball like it should be enjoyed.


:rolleyes:

[chopchop20]

It's funny... just the fact the we're comparing Kobe towards the end of his career to a guy who's in his prime speaks volumes

[Simple Jack]

LBJ - lose the talcum toss, cut out the 20-minute pre-game handshakes and 1/2 court tosses, the grand entrance...and win a title. It's that simple.

This has nothing to do with his game on the court. If he cut that out, would he have dropped 45 10 10 against Orlando since the 39 8 8 wasn't good enough? Please. The guy is all business when he's in the game.

[Courtside View]

Didn't you say that LeBron was playing on Jordan Prime level? A couple of bad games and your opinion sways like the wind.

First Fatal hated on LeBron every chance he got. I mean trashing his game. Then he jumped on his sack talking about how unbelievable he is and how he's playing on a Jordan level and clearly better than Kobe. Now it's a toss up between Wade, Bron and Bryant. That's why I never take anything he says serious.

:oldlol: @ chopchop. From now on, any time my favorite player plays poorly I'm going to say he was "tired".

[chopchop20]

First Fatal hated on LeBron every chance he got. I mean trashing his game. Then he jumped on his sack talking about how unbelievable he is and how he's playing on a Jordan level and clearly better than Kobe. Now it's a toss up between Wade, Bron and Bryant. That's why I never take anything he says serious.

:oldlol: @ chopchop. From now on, any time my favorite player plays poorly I'm going to say he was "tired".

Phil said it, I mean just look at the minutes. He didn't have the luxury of resting 9 minutes on the bench in the 4th quarter like the Big 3.

He played pretty well except the turnovers. And for the record, I've been on him about the turnovers since Game 1 - so no excuse for that. At the same time, you can't have 4 teammates standing around.

[insidious301]

LeBron doesn't have the most skilled Big on his side. That would be the difference.

[chopchop20]

LeBron doesn't have the most skilled Big on his side. That would be the difference.

But LeBron does have a deeper team overall in particular, the bench

[Courtside View]

Phil said it, I mean just look at the minutes. He didn't have the luxury of resting 9 minutes on the bench in the 4th quarter like the Big 3.

He played pretty well except the turnovers. And for the record, I've been on him about the turnovers since Game 1 - so no excuse for that. At the same time, you can't have 4 teammates standing around.

Sorry, but you don't get the "tired" excuse in the NBA Finals. Plus, it's not just last night's game it's the entire series. I believe the announcer said he was 5-20 in the 4th for the whole series last night. Plus the turnovers. Has he been "tired" all series? The bottom line is that, except to his fanboys who are always ready with an excuse, Bryant is not having some kind of all time great/put my stamp on the game type of series thus far. That's just a fact. He's had flashes here and there but not consistent greatness.

[chopchop20]

Sorry, but you don't get the "tired" excuse in the NBA Finals. Plus, it's not just last night's game it's the entire series. I believe the announcer said he was 5-20 in the 4th for the whole series last night. Plus the turnovers. Has he been "tired" all series? The bottom line is that, except to his fanboys who are always ready with an excuse, Bryant is not having some kind of all time great/put my stamp on the game type of series thus far. That's just a fact. He's had flashes here and there but not consistent greatness.

Who said that he was? Is that the goal? :confusedshrug:

Have you noticed that NO ONE is having a great series... 2 really good defenses.
I think it's fair to say that Kobe has played the Big 3, but again is that the goal.

It's all about the 'ship!

[insidious301]

But LeBron does have a deeper team overall in particular, the bench

:oldlol:

[Courtside View]

But LeBron does have a deeper team overall in particular, the bench

This is just nutty. If you've been following the NBA for longer than a couple of months, you knew the Cavs were very suspect going into the playoffs. It's regular season vs playoffs. I want you to list the players on the Cavs who have stepped up the magnitude of:

Gasol - no explanation needed
Bynum - no explanation needed
Fisher - clutch shots, unexpectedly important d
Artest - inconsistent on o, but great on d consistently and has had key offensive moments. Allows Bryant a reprieve on d.
Odom - inconsistent, but has provided important contributions at key times

Shaq? - gave what he could and was probably the most consistent after Bron but defensive liability and shell of his former self. Certainly nowhere near Gasol and Bynum's contributions.
Jamison - inconsistent as hell and shrank in big moments
Mo Williams - see Jamison

Who else is there? And you're ignoring the MAIN thing that makes the Lakers so scary - they have 3 7 footers capable of controlling the paint for key periods of time and are all skilled. Do you honestly not understand the value of having that kind of size and length?

I won't even get into coaching.

[chopchop20]

This is just nutty. If you've been following the NBA for longer than a couple of months, you knew the Cavs were very suspect going into the playoffs. It's regular season vs playoffs. I want you to list the players on the Cavs who have stepped up the magnitude of:

Gasol - no explanation needed
Bynum - no explanation needed
Fisher - clutch shots, unexpectedly important d
Artest - inconsistent on o, but great on d consistently and has had key offensive moments. Allows Bryant a reprieve on d.
Odom - inconsistent, but has provided important contributions at key times

Shaq? - gave what he could and was probably the most consistent after Bron but defensive liability and shell of his former self. Certainly nowhere near Gasol and Bynum's contributions.
Jamison - inconsistent as hell and shrank in big moments
Mo Williams - see Jamison

Who else is there? And you're ignoring the MAIN thing that makes the Lakers so scary - they have 3 7 footers capable of controlling the paint for key periods of time and are all skilled. Do you honestly not understand the value of having that kind of size and length?

I won't even get into coaching.

Is Bynum healthy?

Big Z- former starter coming off the bench
Delonte - former starter coming off the bench
Powe - quality contributor in the 2008 Finals
Gibson - quality contributor in past playoffs
Hickson - quality player
Moon - quality player

They have a pretty decent starting lineup sitting on the bench. No question that Cleveland is much deeper

You'd be correct if we actually had 3 healthy 7 footers right now. That is not reality and the fact is Boston has 5 Bigs and we have 2.5

[Clocian-IGN]

srsly? 11 pages in 4 hours? i should start another mj vs kobe thread, wonder how fast that'll blow up :lol

[Courtside View]

Is Bynum healthy?

Big Z- former starter coming off the bench
Delonte - former starter coming off the bench
Powe - quality contributor in the 2008 Finals
Gibson - quality contributor in past playoffs
Hickson - quality player
Moon - quality player

They have a pretty decent starting lineup sitting on the bench. No question that Cleveland is much deeper

You'd be correct if we actually had 3 healthy 7 footers right now. That is not reality and the fact is Boston has 5 Bigs and we have 2.5

Don't try the Bynum healthy thing. Even with his health he's given LA more than most starting centers give their teams. Blocks, scoring, lane intimidation, rebounding. Come on now. Going forward his health may be an issue but that started in Game 4. Until then, his contributions have been so significant you can hardly use his health as an excuse.

As for Cleveland's bench, there's some decent talent there but what difference does it make if they don't contribute consistently? And, it doesn't negate what I said about LA's key players contributing much much much more than Cleveland's.

And once AGAIN, you're downplaying LA's frontline even though all the commentators have been talking about that being the key to LA's success all playoffs long. Do you know (I think you do, but you want to ignore it) how key a trio of 7 footers like that is? Anything on Cleveland that compares to that? I thought not.

And I won't even get into the coaching.

[Papaya Petee]

Ha there honestly shouldn't be comparisons. LeBron's impact on the court is much bigger then Kobes. But some people don't see how really good Pau Gasol is and how great the supporting cast of LA is.

[Desperado]

Did anyone else notice that every good player that has ever been brought in to play with Lebron has never found success. In fact they've gotten worse. Superstars are supposed to make players better. Mo Williams has gotten progressively worse since he's been in Cleveland, Jamison went from being a 20+ point a game scorer while having to share the ball with Gil and Butler. 9 points a game with Lebron. Shaq finished last season averaging over 18 a game, down to 12 with Lebron, Larry Huhges 22+ a game with washington, gets traded to the Cav's and his average dips to under 15. Rickey Davis (who averaged 20/5/5 the season before Lebron) was shipped out because they thought he's take touches away from Lebron. Carlos Boozer skipped town after one season of playing with him... Kapono became a wonderful shooter and doble figure scorer once he got out of Cleveland and was playing with Wade and Shaq.

Averaging 8 or even 10 assist a game doesn't always mean you are making guys better if so Marbury was the best point guard in the NBA for about a 7 year stretch. Lebron needs to dominate the ball to be successful. He's not a good catch and shoot ball player, Can't shoot off pin downs, can't play going east and west, can't score in the block. He needs to pound the ball on the wing or get in transition. When you dominate the ball with other guys that need the ball to be effective their production dips. Lebron has proven this for 7 straight years.

Stop blaming the management, coaching etc... Last month when the Cavs were rolling we didn't hear any of this. All we heard was how much better this roster is then its been in years past. Now in a four-five weeks the roster is full of bums?

There's only been one constant for the Cavs during their failures... Lebron! Its time to start looking their as opposed to looking at everyone else.

[chopchop20]

Don't try the Bynum healthy thing. Even with his health he's given LA more than most starting centers give their teams. Blocks, scoring, lane intimidation, rebounding. Come on now. Going forward his health may be an issue but that started in Game 4. Until then, his contributions have been so significant you can hardly use his health as an excuse.

As for Cleveland's bench, there's some decent talent there but what difference does it make if they don't contribute consistently? And, it doesn't negate what I said about LA's key players contributing much much much more than Cleveland's.

And once AGAIN, you're downplaying LA's frontline even though all the commentators have been talking about that being the key to LA's success all playoffs long. Do you know (I think you do, but you want to ignore it) how key a trio of 7 footers like that is? Anything on Cleveland that compares to that? I thought not.

And I won't even get into the coaching.

1. So denying reality supports your argument?

2. Does the Lakers bench contribute consistently? Even Odom doesn't.

Wouldn't you rather have Big Z coming off the bench over Mbenga?
Hickson over Powell?
West over Farmar?
Moon over Walton?

3. So you're agreeing that the frontline is the key but an injured Bynum doesn't matter? :confusedshrug:

[Papaya Petee]

2. Does the Lakers bench contribute consistently? Even Odom doesn't.

Wouldn't you rather have Big Z coming off the bench over Mbenga?
Hickson over Powell?
West over Farmar?
Moon over Walton?

3. So you're agreeing that the frontline is the key but an injured Bynum doesn't matter? :confusedshrug:


I would much rather have Odom then all those Cleveland players off the bench. I would rather have Walton over Moon too. Moon is a shitty passer and a streaky shooter. At least Walton has a high basketball I.Q and can pass the ball very well.

Also, last year LA managed to win the NBA Title with Bynum being almost non-existant in the post-season. Plus even without him the combination of Gasol-Odom is much much better then the combination of an Ancient Shaq and Jamison.

[TheLogo]

It's actually very easy to answer.....

In the NBA there are 3 seasons.....the regular season, the playoffs, the Finals.

Lebron played Boston in the playoffs where Kobe is playing Boston in the Finals.

The Finals is another animal....everything is tougher in the Finals.

this.

[Orodoro]

This is great and all, but one this all doesn't matter because Kobe is in the finals, whereas Lebron is at home watching Kobe.

[Simple Jack]

But LeBron does have a deeper team overall in particular, the bench

It doesn't equate to Kobe's 1-6 and GOAT head coach. Give me a break. If Cavaliers offered you their roster for the Lakers, you'd take it?

[Courtside View]

1. So denying reality supports your argument?

2. Does the Lakers bench contribute consistently? Even Odom doesn't.

Wouldn't you rather have Big Z coming off the bench over Mbenga?
Hickson over Powell?
West over Farmar?
Moon over Walton?

3. So you're agreeing that the frontline is the key but an injured Bynum doesn't matter? :confusedshrug:

You're either being willfully obtuse, or are just dim not sure which.

Who's denying reality? I'm saying Bynum's CONTRIBUTIONS have been such that his injury (up until Game 4) hasn't been that much of a factor. You're denying reality if you think it has. It may have limited him somewhat, but he's been mobile enough that when paired with Gasol and Odom it still provides a nightmare combination.

In the playoffs, everyone knows that the rotation is limited a lot more than during the regular season. I, and anyone with any SENSE would take LA's key players over anything on Cleveland because A. The length and skill of LA's bigs and B. The ability of it's key players to step up when it matters (Mo? Jamison? Who could step up for Cleveland?)

The Bynum injury has only been a major factor in Game 4 and you know it. He's been contributing BIG TIME to LA all playoffs long. Don't be ridiculous just to be ridiculous. Bynum's injury has not prevented him from being key force for LA. We'll see if that changes moving forward, given the WORSENING of the injury.

[chopchop20]

It doesn't equate to Kobe's 1-6 and GOAT head coach. Give me a break. If Cavaliers offered you their roster for the Lakers, you'd take it?

DEPTH is MORE than 1- 6

I said Cleveland was DEEPER, did not say that they were BETTER 1 - 6

[Simple Jack]

This is great and all, but one this all doesn't matter because Kobe is in the finals, whereas Lebron is at home watching Kobe.

This is the exact attitude that makes debating pointless.

Why do you think Kobe is in the finals while LeBron is watching? If LeBron had the same series against the Thunder that Kobe did, he's done. No more Utah series to show "you can play through injury", no more Phx series to show "a crazy jumpshot exhibition" and no FINALS.

This doesn't make Kobe better than LeBron. By this logic, LeBron could have averaged 40 10 10 on 60% fg and 1 turnover a game while Kobe averages 20 on 40% and wins the title, which would make Kobe the better player right? Wrong. Winning requires effort from all parts of your team and it's clear that Kobe's team is more ready to pick up the slack when he has bad games, which has happened rather frequently this whole season, and these playoffs.

[Simple Jack]

DEPTH is MORE than 1- 6

I said Cleveland was DEEPER, did not say that they were BETTER 1 - 6

My point is, it doesn't matter. Their 1-6 is so good that no argument can even be made mentioning the Cavaliers bench.

[The_Yearning]

Hey hey you guys know that D. West was banging LBJ's momma right?


Remember what happened when Karl Malone was banging Kobe's wife?

C'mon now.

[chopchop20]

You're either being willfully obtuse, or are just dim not sure which.

Who's denying reality? I'm saying Bynum's CONTRIBUTIONS have been such that his injury (up until Game 4) hasn't been that much of a factor. You're denying reality if you think it has. It may have limited him somewhat, but he's been mobile enough that when paired with Gasol and Odom it still provides a nightmare combination.

In the playoffs, everyone knows that the rotation is limited a lot more than during the regular season. I, and anyone with any SENSE would take LA's key players over anything on Cleveland because A. The length and skill of LA's bigs and B. The ability of it's key players to step up when it matters (Mo? Jamison? Who could step up for Cleveland?)

The Bynum injury has only been a major factor in Game 4 and you know it. He's been contributing BIG TIME to LA all playoffs long. Don't be ridiculous just to be ridiculous. Bynum's injury has not prevented him from being key force for LA. We'll see if that changes moving forward, given the WORSENING of the injury.

Dude, stop for a moment an ponder... no matter how effective Bynum has been thus far, don't you think he'd be MORE effective if he was healthy?

Wasn't a factor until Game 4? So do we throw out last night like the game didn't matter> Sounds as if ur casually dismissing the lack of his presence inside... Last time I checked, all of the games matter and count

[chopchop20]

I would much rather have Odom then all those Cleveland players off the bench. I would rather have Walton over Moon too. Moon is a shitty passer and a streaky shooter. At least Walton has a high basketball I.Q and can pass the ball very well.

Also, last year LA managed to win the NBA Title with Bynum being almost non-existant in the post-season. Plus even without him the combination of Gasol-Odom is much much better then the combination of an Ancient Shaq and Jamison.

What does last year have to do with this year? What does the matchup against Orlando have to do with the matchup against Boston? :confusedshrug:

[chopchop20]

My point is, it doesn't matter. Their 1-6 is so good that no argument can even be made mentioning the Cavaliers bench.

Your point is irrelevant to the statement I made, so what are you talking about?

[Simple Jack]

Your point is irrelevant to the statement I made, so what are you talking about?

Take it in context. You mentioned it as a way to prop up LeBron's team and compare them to the Lakers team. It's a stupid comparison.

[Courtside View]

Your point is irrelevant to the statement I made, so what are you talking about?

He's annoyed that people such as yourself keep splitting hairs instead of just admitting Bryant has FAR more to work with than Bron.

You know, I wouldn't even really mention that fact if Kobe was playing lights out against Boston. It's the fact that his play has been basically subpar by his supposed standards, and yet LA is still in a great position to win the series. LeBron doesn't play all time great EVERY game, and Cleveland cannot overcome it. Yet he gets shytted on while Bryant gets a pass because some people ignore or hate CONTEXT.

[chopchop20]

Take it in context. You mentioned it as a way to prop up LeBron's team and compare them to the Lakers team. It's a stupid comparison.

Nope.... I said Cleveland is deeper than the Lakers.

You said it didn't matter because of 1 - 6, which had nothing to do with the original statement

[chopchop20]

He's annoyed that people such as yourself keep splitting hairs instead of just admitting Bryant has FAR more to work with than Bron.

You know, I wouldn't even really mention that fact if Kobe was playing lights out against Boston. It's the fact that his play has been basically subpar by his supposed standards, and yet LA is still in a great position to win the series. LeBron doesn't play all time great EVERY game, and Cleveland cannot overcome it. Yet he gets shytted on while Bryant gets a pass because some people ignore or hate CONTEXT.

LeBron wasn't even the best player on the court against the Celts - Rondo was.

[Courtside View]

LeBron wasn't even the best player on the court against the Celts - Rondo was.

OK, I see now that you're just going to ignore any point you don't like and just bullshyt. WTF does Rondo have to do with Bron when he plays on the Celtics? How does that counter what I said? WTF are you even talking about?

[Simple Jack]

Nope.... I said Cleveland is deeper than the Lakers.

You said it didn't matter because of 1 - 6, which had nothing to do with the original statement

Funny because this is a thread about Kobe and LeBron and comparing their two situations. You just decided to chime in and give some new information to talk about?

[chopchop20]

OK, I see now that you're just going to ignore any point you don't like and just bullshyt. WTF does Rondo have to do with Bron when he plays on the Celtics? How does that counter what I said? WTF are you even talking about?

You're trying to that the Lakers are carrying Kobe because of his subpar performances. LeBron doesn't have the luxury because of his vastly inferior teammates.

My counter to you is that depsite Kobe's awful performances, he's still doing a better job than the BIG 3 + Rondo... something that LeBron was not able to do

[chopchop20]

Funny because this is a thread about Kobe and LeBron and comparing their two situations. You just decided to chime in and give some new information to talk about?

Just adding balance to the argument. People acting like Kobe is riding a Golden Chariot and all LeBron has is a pinto. Lakers have better starters, Cleveland has better depth. There's checks and minuses for both.

Lakers could use more quality depth right now (which Cleveland has). Cleveland could haves used a more dominate scorer and consistent 2nd shooter (which LA has) against Boston

[thejumpa]

Just adding balance to the argument. People acting like Kobe is riding a Golden Chariot and all LeBron has is a pinto. Lakers have better starters, Cleveland has better depth. There's checks and minuses for both.

Lakers could use more quality depth right now (which Cleveland has). Cleveland could haves used a more dominate scorer and consistent 2nd shooter (which LA has) against Boston

What you fail to mention is the fact that LA has more talent. More versatily, more skillful players, and more athleticism. Magic Johnson once said that being deep doesn't matter as much because of the shortened rotations in the playoffs. Lakers have more talent than most of the league. That's how they get by when Kobe has defensive lapses, poor shot selection, and is overall not playing good due to great Boston D.

Individually speaking, Kobe is playing no better than LeBron. I'm not sure how you can't see that. He is shooting terrible, turning the ball over, and shooting bad shots. You know, trying to be the hero when it's not needed. When they start their offense, he wants the ball on the block almost every time.

[Allstar24]

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080202231407/uncyclopedia/images/1/11/Beating-a-dead-horse.gif

[Simple Jack]

Just adding balance to the argument. People acting like Kobe is riding a Golden Chariot and all LeBron has is a pinto. Lakers have better starters, Cleveland has better depth. There's checks and minuses for both.

Lakers could use more quality depth right now (which Cleveland has). Cleveland could haves used a more dominate scorer and consistent 2nd shooter (which LA has) against Boston

Again by putting these two things in the same comparison, you are drawing a conclusion. LeBron's depth is still a "pinto" compared to Kobe's supporting casts talent.

The point nearly everyone was trying to make is that if LeBron has a 10/29 game, and 1/6 4th quarter, his team isn't winning; especially by 8 or 9 or whatever Lakers won by the other game. It's undeniable. It's been proven on occasion that this team can still play well (obviously not championship calibur) without Kobe, and can win even when he has a garbage game. Cavaliers, not so much.

[chopchop20]

What you fail to mention is the fact that LA has more talent. More versatily, more skillful players, and more athleticism. Magic Johnson once said that being deep doesn't matter as much because of the shortened rotations in the playoffs. Lakers have more talent than most of the league. That's how they get by when Kobe has defensive lapses, poor shot selection, and is overall not playing good due to great Boston D.

Individually speaking, Kobe is playing no better than LeBron. I'm not sure how you can't see that. He is shooting terrible, turning the ball over, and shooting bad shots. You know, trying to be the hero when it's not needed. When they start their offense, he wants the ball on the block almost every time.

1. Talent gets worn down. You still need quality depth, no matter how good you are.

2. This series has always been about and is still the matchups in the paint.

[chopchop20]

Again by putting these two things in the same comparison, you are drawing a conclusion. LeBron's depth is still a "pinto" compared to Kobe's supporting casts talent.

The point nearly everyone was trying to make is that if LeBron has a 10/29 game, and 1/6 4th quarter, his team isn't winning; especially by 8 or 9 or whatever Lakers won by the other game. It's undeniable. It's been proven on occasion that this team can still play well (obviously not championship calibur) without Kobe, and can win even when he has a garbage game. Cavaliers, not so much.

It's more than just FG%. You can't diminish the other aspects, the hustle plays, defense, blocked shots, assists.

Why did Fisher get those looks in the 4th qtr? Because Boston were double teaming Kobe.

[Amil23]

It's more than just FG%. You can't diminish the other aspects, the hustle plays, defense, blocked shots, assists.

Why did Fisher get those looks in the 4th qtr? Because Boston were double teaming Kobe.
you mean like Laker fans always do Lebron:rolleyes:

[amfirst]

The series isn't even over yet. And Kobe can never do worst than LeBron, the dude quit because he knew he couldn't beat the Celtics. What happens if he actually tried, his shooting percentage will go down. Dude was more concern of hurting his stats than beating the Celts.

[chopchop20]

The series isn't even over yet. And Kobe can never do worst than LeBron, the dude quit because he knew he couldn't beat the Celtics. What happens if he actually tried, his shooting percentage will go down. Dude was more concern of hurting his stats than beating the Celts.

Only gripe I have against LeBron in that series is that Rondo was clearly the best player in that series. That should not happen against the league's best player

[Amil23]

Only gripe I have against LeBron in that series is that Rondo was clearly the best player in that series. That should not happen against the league's best player
just like Kobe hasnt been the best this series so..................

[Desperado]

http://swagsyndicate.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/the-forest-lab-only-kings-have-rings-tee-2.jpg

[Amil23]

http://swagsyndicate.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/the-forest-lab-only-kings-have-rings-tee-2.jpg
..rite

[Twiens]

Players improve beside Kobe, get worse playing with Lebron. That's it. Maybe one day he'll stop holding the ball for 95% of the game and that will change....

[Desperado]

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/Mugen_EP/DSC03250.jpg

[sixer6ad]

To me it's simple:

Kobe, Jordan, Bird, etc. get/got players like Fisher, Craig Hodges, and Jerry Sichting to hit big shots when they needed it. Robert Horry, Ariza, Rick Fox for the Lakers... Bill Wennington, Bill Cartwright, and Steve Kerr for the Bulls...Scott Wedman, Greg Kite, and Danny Ainge. All of these would be considered good NBA role players who were not afraid to make big plays when needed - especially playoff time. Kobe, Jordan (especially Jordan), and Bird did/have done that.

LBJ has had some good role players; however, he has not found a way to get them to truly come through in clutch manner (except for Boobie in 2007 vs. Detroit). He needs to get meaner, cut the "family" crap (or at least keep it in house), get more focused, and win titles. I don't care if he needs to scare the crap out of the other players - like Jordan did. He just needs to change and get it done.

[Jacks3]

I love how you put "multiple games" but at least you acknowledge the Phoenix Game 7. But let's say LeBron DID quit in 2 games vs Kobe's 1. So the 1 more game that Bron quit in is your thread ending argument?

At any rate, yet another person who refuses to acknowledge the OBVIOUS difference in contributions of teammates for each.

Is it really so hard for you to admit? Hell, what would be wrong in even saying "Yes, Kobe has gotten FAR more from his team than LeBron did, but I still think Kobe is better"? Does the fear of Kobe somehow being diminished control you guys that much?

It's like not being able to admit that snow is white. That's how absurd it is.
The revisionist history is amazing. CLE was the favorites to win the Chanmponship going into the playoffs. Everybody thought they had a championship caliber roster. Meanwhile, the Lakers only won 57 games and were getting a bunch of criticism fort their performances. Now clowns are acing like LeBron played with a bunch of scrubs and Kobe a bunch of All-Stars. :roll:

[Simple Jack]

Players improve beside Kobe, get worse playing with Lebron. That's it. Maybe one day he'll stop holding the ball for 95% of the game and that will change....

Really? Odom got worse.
Butler got worse.
Gasol is playing the same.
Artest is definitely playing worse.

[chopchop20]

just like Kobe hasnt been the best this series so..................

He's outplayed the BIG 3 + Rondo though

[Simple Jack]

It's more than just FG%. You can't diminish the other aspects, the hustle plays, defense, blocked shots, assists.

Why did Fisher get those looks in the 4th qtr? Because Boston were double teaming Kobe.

What? A few of them were off fast breaks. Others were drawing contact and making tough shots. How exactly was this "because of Kobe"?

It's funny that when you can't find visual or quantitative proof, people resort to posting childish pictures and completely disregard reality.

[chopchop20]

What? A few of them were off fast breaks. Others were drawing contact and making tough shots. How exactly was this "because of Kobe"?

It's funny that when you can't find visual or quantitative proof, people resort to posting childish pictures and completely disregard reality.

Go back and watch the 4th Qtr, then you'll have your answer

[Simple Jack]

The revisionist history is amazing. CLE was the favorites to win the Chanmponship going into the playoffs. Everybody thought they had a championship caliber roster. Meanwhile, the Lakers only won 57 games and were getting a bunch of criticism fort their performances. Now clowns are acing like LeBron played with a bunch of scrubs and Kobe a bunch of All-Stars. :roll:

The bottom line is, LeBron doesn't win if he played like Kobe vs OKC. He doesn't win a game if he shoots 10/29 and 1/6 in the 4th. Why is this so hard to understand? Isn't it known that Kobe has one of the most talented teams in the league? We've been saying this all season.

[Twiens]

Really? Odom got worse.
Butler got worse.
Gasol is playing the same.
Artest is definitely playing worse.

Gasol's MUCH better.
Odom has been the same or better, just less minutes.
Artest went from #1 or 2 option to about #5. What do you expect?

[Simple Jack]

Go back and watch the 4th Qtr, then you'll have your answer

I've watched that 4th quarter twice already, not including the original for a debate I was having with a buddy. I suggest you go watch it again.

[chopchop20]

The bottom line is, LeBron doesn't win if he played like Kobe vs OKC. He doesn't win a game if he shoots 10/29 and 1/6 in the 4th. Why is this so hard to understand? Isn't it known that Kobe has one of the most talented teams in the league? We've been saying this all season.

You conveniently leave out ALL the games in between... Kobe has probably had the best playoffs out of anybody this year. That's why his team WINS

[Simple Jack]

Gasol's MUCH better.
Odom has been the same or better, just less minutes.
Artest went from #1 or 2 option to about #5. What do you expect?

Odom hasn't been better or the same. He was having disgusting triple doubles on Miami when given minutes. He's played WELL when given minutes, but hardly like he had played in the past.

Gasol was already one of the best big's in the league prior to coming to the Lakers. Explain to me how exactly he's become "MUCH better".

It's funny; Artest shot better as a #1 or #2 option (much more defensive attention) than he is now. He's had a horrid offensive year and the excuse is that he's a 4th or so option? That should make his shot selection better considering he's not needed to score as much. The less you shoot, the more efficient you should be; especially when defenses have 4 other players who can all score to worry about.

[Simple Jack]

You conveniently leave out ALL the games in between... Kobe has probably had the best playoffs out of anybody this year. That's why his team WINS

I left it out for reason you clown.

Becuase if LeBron had that same series vs OKC, ITS OVER. No more chances. No great performance against PHX, no good performance against Utah and no chance to win a ring. Kobe on the other hand can have these games, and STILL be in it to win.

[chopchop20]

I've watched that 4th quarter twice already, not including the original for a debate I was having with a buddy. I suggest you go watch it again.

1-2 Pick & Roll - 3 straight possessions
Rondo and Allen double Kobe - 3 straight possessions
Fisher scores - 3 straight possessions

:confusedshrug:

[chopchop20]

I left it out for reason you clown.

Becuase if LeBron had that same series vs OKC, ITS OVER. No more chances. No great performance against PHX, no good performance against Utah and no chance to win a ring. Kobe on the other hand can have these games, and STILL be in it to win.

You left it out because your logic is WEAK and you prefer to have selective memory. You choose to ignore Kobe's performance as a whole in the playoffs in order to highlight his less efficient games. You ALSO forgot what Kobe did in the closeout game against OKC -- Clown! :oldlol:

[veilside23]

i've been a witness to both players. if i need a winning shot id like number 24 to take it than lbj.

btw. the game that lbj put up a 3ple double . he also had 10 or 9 turnovers.

dont blame kobe for not winning basketball is a team game. celtics played great defense on kobe yet he still was able to make the game close .

lbj on the other hand quit. kobe showed frustration while lbj didnt. why? i wont know the answer. lbj after they lost didnt seem to show much concern.

[Jacks3]

The bottom line is, LeBron doesn't win if he played like Kobe vs OKC. He doesn't win a game if he shoots 10/29 and 1/6 in the 4th. Why is this so hard to understand? Isn't it known that Kobe has one of the most talented teams in the league? We've been saying this all season.
lol. Kobe was the Lakers best player in 3/4 wins in that OCK series. He was terrific in games 2,5,6. Stop acting like the Lakers won in spite of him. And there have been multiple instances where the Cavs have won despite LeBron shooting poorly. And you know why? Because both impact games in ways that go FAR beyond FG%! That game 3 where Kobe shot 10-29...he also had 29 pts/7 reb/4 ast/3 blks/2stl. He played a superb game defensively and also got to the line 8 times. Nobody is saying Kobe doesn't have a great supporting cast. The problem is clowns overrating his cast to diminish what Bryant does.

[Jacks3]

Really? Odom got worse.
Butler got worse.
Gasol is playing the same.
Artest is definitely playing worse.
Odom/Butler/Gasol all saw huge increases in their efficiency when they joined L.A.:wtf:

[Twiens]

Odom hasn't been better or the same. He was having disgusting triple doubles on Miami when given minutes. He's played WELL when given minutes, but hardly like he had played in the past.

Gasol was already one of the best big's in the league prior to coming to the Lakers. Explain to me how exactly he's become "MUCH better".

It's funny; Artest shot better as a #1 or #2 option (much more defensive attention) than he is now. He's had a horrid offensive year and the excuse is that he's a 4th or so option? That should make his shot selection better considering he's not needed to score as much. The less you shoot, the more efficient you should be; especially when defenses have 4 other players who can all score to worry about.

Gasol was nothing but a borderline all-star before coming to the Lakers.....now people are arguing for him as best big in the whole league. Quite a difference.

[Duncan21formvp]

Cavs were up 2-1 just like LA and Boston won 3 in a row.

[Simple Jack]

1-2 Pick & Roll - 3 straight possessions
Rondo and Allen double Kobe - 3 straight possessions
Fisher scores - 3 straight possessions

:confusedshrug:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3r4XiPQ5-eU&feature=related

2:45
Rondo gets caught in the screen, Ray Allen doesn't rotate out. Pierce comes for the help D and gets up on fisher. Still drains it.

3:43
Fisher gets the rebound, takes it full court, right into 3 Celt defenders and scores.

Show me a video of the other shots online so we can analyze.

[Simple Jack]

You left it out because your logic is WEAK and you prefer to have selective memory. You choose to ignore Kobe's performance as a whole in the playoffs in order to highlight his less efficient games. You ALSO forgot what Kobe did in the closeout game against OKC -- Clown! :oldlol:

No because that's not my point you idiot. I'm not concerned with his overall performance. I'm concerned with the fact that if LeBron had the exact same series as Kobe, while playing on the Cavaliers, their playoff run would be over.
:violin:

[Simple Jack]

lol. Kobe was the Lakers best player in 3/4 wins in that OCK series. He was terrific in games 2,5,6. Stop acting like the Lakers won in spite of him. And there have been multiple instances where the Cavs have won despite LeBron shooting poorly. And you know why? Because both impact games in ways that go FAR beyond FG%! That game 3 where Kobe shot 10-29...he also had 29 pts/7 reb/4 ast/3 blks/2stl. He played a superb game defensively and also got to the line 8 times. Nobody is saying Kobe doesn't have a great supporting cast. The problem is clowns overrating his cast to diminish what Bryant does.

No he wasn't. Gasol was the best player for 5 if not all 6 of the games.

He was averaging close to 25 14 on 60% FG.

Your analysis of Kobe's 10/29 game can be used for nearly any bad game LeBron has ever had. You see, when his offense is off, he usually (for one, doesnt take 29 shots) passes and rebounds at a very high rate. Something Kobe isn't known for doing.

If you think Kobe played "good" against OKC, it really doesn't say much about Kobe. We all know what he's capable of, and that was a terrible series for him by any standard. His worst since Shaq left!

[Simple Jack]

Gasol was nothing but a borderline all-star before coming to the Lakers.....now people are arguing for him as best big in the whole league. Quite a difference.

Gasol was a 20 10 player who was one of the best bigs in the league. There is a reason it was seen as such a huge pickup for the Lakers to grab him. Selective memory, huh?

[Simple Jack]

Odom/Butler/Gasol all saw huge increases in their efficiency when they joined L.A.:wtf:

Odom was at 15pts 9reb at 40 minutes a game in 06! 17 pts 10 reb in Miami in 37 minutes including such games as 30/19/11 (11/18 fg)

Butler was in his 3rd year. After he left the Lakers, he improved on every part of his game (literally), the following year.

Gasol's best seasons came on Memphis. 21 10 on 54% fg 2 blocks a game? In a minute less than he's playing now. Considering he was the only focus of the defense, I'd say that was more impressive than what he's doing now.

[Jacks3]

No he wasn't. Gasol was the best player for 5 if not all 6 of the games.
Kobe was terrific in 3 of 4 Lakers wins. That's the point. You're trying to imply that the Lakers won in spite of him, but his play in Games 2,5,6 was HUGE. And lol @ Gasol being the best in all 6 games.:oldlol:



Your analysis of Kobe's 10/29 game can be used for nearly any bad game LeBron has ever had. You see, when his offense is off, he usually (for one, doesnt take 29 shots) passes and rebounds at a very high rate. Something Kobe isn't known for doing.

What's your point? My point is that Kobe was STILL the Lakers best player in Game 3 and still had a HUGE impact even with the poor shooting. What Kobe is ''usually'' known for doesn't matter. The fact is, he played great ball outside his shooting. 29 pts/7 reb/4 ast/3 blks/2 stl/only 1 turnover+ 8/8 from the line+ phenomenal defensive play.

If you think Kobe played "good" against OKC, it really doesn't say much about Kobe. We all know what he's capable of, and that was a terrible series for him by any standard. His worst since Shaq left!
[/QUOTE]
I said that acting like the Lakers won the OKC series in spite of Bryant is stupid because he still was a huge factor in 3 of their 4 wins.

[chopchop20]

No because that's not my point you idiot. I'm not concerned with his overall performance. I'm concerned with the fact that if LeBron had the exact same series as Kobe, while playing on the Cavaliers, their playoff run would be over.
:violin:

Basically you're saying NOTHING. I could easily rationalize that if Kobe didn't play as well as he did against Utah and Phoenix, the Lakers don't make it to the Finals :rolleyes:

[Jacks3]

So Butler getting better compared to previous seasons in his one yr in L.A doesn't matter, but what he did post-LA does?:lol

Odom's/Gasol's efficeny all increased by a TON after going to L.A. Check the stats.

[insidious301]

:oldlol: at Kobe playing "terrific" in 3/4 Lakers wins.

[Jacks3]

So Kobe didn't play great in games 2,5,6 in that OCK series?:roll:
Game 5-13/7 in 29 min-Completely shuts Westbrook down, who was shooting 55% before that game

Game 2-Drops 39 pts including 15 in the last 8 minutes.
Game 6-32 pts,7 reb,3 ast.12/25 from field, 3-4 from three.

[insidious301]

Shooting 42% with 4 turnovers(game 2) is "terrific"

:oldlol: Comical

[ginobli2311]

Odom/Butler/Gasol all saw huge increases in their efficiency when they joined L.A.:wtf:


odom in miami: 17 points 10 boards 4 assists
odom in LA: (best year) 16 points 10 boards 5 assists

odom is the exact same player....his fg% improved because he didn't have to take as many bad shots....thats it. his efficiency would have greatly improved joining any of the elite teams or any teams that made him the number 2 option.

butler is the exact same case as odom....in fact, butler's numbers in his rookie year in miami were just as good as his numbers in LA in his third year

butler/odom went from winning a playoff series in miami to missing the playoffs in LA as well.....LOL

gasol....this is just laughable. the year before the trade.....gasol was averaging:

21 points 10 boards 3 assists 2 blocks on 54% from the field. he has not averaged over 19 points since coming to LA and his shooting percentage is identical.

your post holds no water at all. the fact remains that these players played almost identical and trying to credit kobe for something that doesn't exist is a joke.

[Jacks3]

Shooting 42% with 4 turnovers(game 2) is "terrific"

:oldlol: Comical
LOL
39 pts
13/15 from the FT line
2/5 from three
5 reb
2 stl
15 pts in 4th Q--completely taking over down the stretch of a close game.
Yep,terrific.:oldlol:

[ginobli2311]

So Kobe didn't play great in games 2,5,6 in that OCK series?:roll:
Game 5-13/7 in 29 min-Completely shuts Westbrook down, who was shooting 55% before that game

Game 2-Drops 39 pts including 15 in the last 8 minutes.
Game 6-32 pts,7 reb,3 ast.12/25 from field, 3-4 from three.

i don't know how you can count game 5 as a great game. he only played 29 minutes and scored 13 points with 4 turnovers. he played good defense.....but come on....a great game? he didn't play enough minutes to have a great game. it was gasol/artest/bynum that all had great games. here is a hint....when kobe is the lakers 4th best player in a game....he didn't have a great game.

[chopchop20]

odom in miami: 17 points 10 boards 4 assists
odom in LA: (best year) 16 points 10 boards 5 assists

odom is the exact same player....his fg% improved because he didn't have to take as many bad shots....thats it. his efficiency would have greatly improved joining any of the elite teams or any teams that made him the number 2 option.

butler is the exact same case as odom....in fact, butler's numbers in his rookie year in miami were just as good as his numbers in LA in his third year

butler/odom went from winning a playoff series in miami to missing the playoffs in LA as well.....LOL

gasol....this is just laughable. the year before the trade.....gasol was averaging:

21 points 10 boards 3 assists 2 blocks on 54% from the field. he has not averaged over 19 points since coming to LA and his shooting percentage is identical.

your post holds no water at all. the fact remains that these players played almost identical and trying to credit kobe for something that doesn't exist is a joke.

So if he's not playing playing as well he was in Memphis, why does he get so much credit for the Laker's success :confusedshrug:

[insidious301]

Missing his last two shots(LOL at "completely taking over". Going 3/6 in the 4th with 3 turnovers is so terrific). I wonder what some of these idiots think Wade's games vs. Boston were :oldlol:

[Jacks3]

i don't know how you can count game 5 as a great game. he only played 29 minutes and scored 13 points with 4 turnovers. he played good defense.....but come on....a great game? he didn't play enough minutes to have a great game. it was gasol/artest/bynum that all had great games. here is a hint....when kobe is the lakers 4th best player in a game....he didn't have a great game.
Yes, he did. His defense on Rondo was the biggest reason LA won the game. It completely took Ock city out of their offense, resulting in a blow-out. He was easily the biggest impact player for the Lakers. Watch the game.

[Jacks3]

So 15 pts in the last 8 min of a close game isn't taking over?:roll:

[sayitaintso]

Against Boston, only Gasol has played well so far.

Artest and Odom have been pretty bad so far. And haven't really done much of anything.

Bynum in game 3 and 4 hasn't been so effective, but I see him playing better in game 5 since there is 2 days off now.

Artest defense on Pierce = pretty good.

Odom 5-5 FG 12 PTS 5 (or 7?) REB game 3 = better one game than nothing.

[Jacks3]

odom in miami: 17 points 10 boards 4 assists
odom in LA: (best year) 16 points 10 boards 5 assists

odom is the exact same player....his fg% improved because he didn't have to take as many bad shots....thats it. his efficiency would have greatly improved joining any of the elite teams or any teams that made him the number 2 option.
His efficiency didn't just improve It went up by a huge amount. That's making your teammates better.


butler is the exact same case as odom....in fact, butler's numbers in his rookie year in miami were just as good as his numbers in LA in his third year
His efficiency also improved and one cold make a great case that 04-05 was his best year up to that point.

butler/odom went from winning a playoff series in miami to missing the playoffs in LA as well.....LOL
And Odom won the championship in LA!:oldlol:

gasol....this is just laughable.
He also saw a huge increase in efficiency, has had his best regular seasons and playoffs in LA. The idea of Kobe not improving Gasol is laughable.

your post holds no water at all. the fact remains that these players played almost identical and trying to credit kobe for something that doesn't exist is a joke.[/QUOTE]
You're the joke. There has been a clear trend of guys improving in LA.

[insidious301]

3 turnovers and missing his last two shots is certainly TERRIFIC. The Lakers defense is what took over. OKC went 4/15 in the 4th. lmao at "terrific". What a poor choice of words for a volume scoring performance.

[Simple Jack]

Basically you're saying NOTHING. I could easily rationalize that if Kobe didn't play as well as he did against Utah and Phoenix, the Lakers don't make it to the Finals :rolleyes:

You the lack of logic on this forum is mind boggling.

Go back and read what I wrote again, idiot.

[Jacks3]

39 pts
13/15 from the FT line
2/5 from three
5 reb
2 stl
15 pts on 50% shooting in 4th Q--completely taking over down the stretch of a close game.
Yep,terrific.

[Simple Jack]

39 pts
13/15 from the FT line
2/5 from three
5 reb
2 stl
15 pts on 50% shooting in 4th Q--completely taking over down the stretch of a close game.
Yep,terrific.

What were Kobe's averages for the series?
What were Gasol's?

I'm not exactly sure, you seem to be quick in getting them so show us!

[Jacks3]

From dwighthowardmvp:During the first 40 games of the 2007-2008 season while playing on Memphis Pau shot 50% from the field. After being traded and finishing up the last 30 games of the season in LA Pau Shot 59% from the field !!!. He logged in more steals, blocks, assist and less fouls and turnovers. Dropping his Turnovers to a career low.

Pau has NEVER averaged 10 rebounds a game and he now has logged 2 out of his 3 highest rebounding seasons. While just setting his career high with 11.3 rebounds this season.

Pau's 3 seasons in La and he has recorded his 3 highest FG% in his career

Yep,Kobe hasn't made Pau better. It's just a coincidence his efficiency has gone through the roof!:roll:

[insidious301]

Lakers holding OKC to 33% shooting in the 4th, Kobe having 3 turnovers, missing his last two field goals, 9 of the 15 pts at the FT line, and 2 of those FT's were misses. Yup, TERRIFIC

:roll:

[ginobli2311]

His efficiency didn't just improve It went up by a huge amount. That's making your teammates better.


His efficiency also improved and one cold make a great case that 04-05 was his best year up to that point.

And Odom won the championship in LA!:oldlol:

He also saw a huge increase in efficiency, has had his best regular seasons and playoffs in LA. The idea of Kobe not improving Gasol is laughable.

your post holds no water at all. the fact remains that these players played almost identical and trying to credit kobe for something that doesn't exist is a joke.
You're the joke. There has been a clear trend of guys improving in LA.[/QUOTE]


gasol had the best year of his career overall the year before he came to memphis. the year before coming to LA.....odom/butler won a playoff series.....in LA they missed the playoffs. that is not making anyone better dude.....jesus christ you are reaching for so much here.

Gasol shot 54% in memphis before coming over. he shoots that right now. you are trying to credit kobe with something that any top 20 player would have done. if gasol went from memphis to dallas and played with dirk his effiicency would go slightly up because he now has a legit player playing next to him.

its just such a dumb argument. kobe fans reaching for anything now that he has sucked ass for the 2nd series this playoffs and somehow his team keeps winning. hmmmmmm.....maybe basketball is a team sport afterall. funny.

[Jacks3]

What were Kobe's averages for the series?
What were Gasol's?

I'm not exactly sure, you seem to be quick in getting them so show us!
You still don't get it. I never said Kobe was better than Pau that series. I said that he was a HUGE reason why the Lakers won in 3-4 wins that series, so acting like he was a non-factor or that his team "carried" him or whatever is stupid.

[Bladers]

What were Kobe's averages for the series?
What were Gasol's?

I'm not exactly sure, you seem to be quick in getting them so show us!

:bowdown: Kobe + 53% :cheers:
:wtf: Gasol - 51% dude needs to step up :)

lol jking...

[Amil23]

Funny laker fans, o valid points so they resort to their bs like stupid pics. Kobe sucks vs good defnese and has been carried by teammates more than any supposedly top 10 player ever has.Funny how a quitting Lebron still manages to put up better numbers than a focused Kobe.Face it there is a huge gap between how good they are.Kobe just chucks his way into points for his own reasons because he wantsd the MVP. That is all. And I expect a "U Mad"

[chopchop20]

You the lack of logic on this forum is mind boggling.

Go back and read what I wrote again, idiot.

You just don't make any sense

[ginobli2311]

From dwighthowardmvp:During the first 40 games of the 2007-2008 season while playing on Memphis Pau shot 50% from the field. After being traded and finishing up the last 30 games of the season in LA Pau Shot 59% from the field !!!. He logged in more steals, blocks, assist and less fouls and turnovers. Dropping his Turnovers to a career low.

Pau has NEVER averaged 10 rebounds a game and he now has logged 2 out of his 3 highest rebounding seasons. While just setting his career high with 11.3 rebounds this season.

Pau's 3 seasons in La and he has recorded his 3 highest FG% in his career

Yep,Kobe hasn't made Pau better. It's just a coincidence his efficiency has gone through the roof!:roll:

lol...again. you are ignoring 07 when gasol shot 54% from the field and scored 21 points. you are also ignoring that efficiency would have gone up playing on any good team. what you are referring to are good reasons that support the lakers just being a loaded team because they have so many options.

if a player can score 21 on 54% from the field on one of the least talented teams in the league. you can't credit kobe for a slight increase in fg% when guys like odom/fisher/bynum have just as much to do with it. you think playing along side another 7 footer and the versatile odom didn't help gasol? gasol and odom play very well together.......LOL....its always kobe until the lakers lose.

you are so bad

[Bladers]

Funny laker fans, o valid points so they resort to their bs like stupid pics. Kobe sucks vs good defnese and has been carried by teammates more than any supposedly top 10 player ever has.Funny how a quitting Lebron still manages to put up better numbers than a focused Kobe.Face it there is a huge gap between how good they are.Kobe just chucks his way into points for his own reasons because he wantsd the MVP. That is all. And I expect a "U Mad"

U Mad? Just saying... :confusedshrug: