Scottie Pippen talks about the current NBA rules

[catch24]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7U8_LoyxSM

He's right on all counts IMO.

[ginobli2311]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7U8_LoyxSM

He's right on all counts IMO.

i love it. its so funny how the majority of teams don't realize how much worse these guys are going to their left. just look at this series. kobe can't make his jumper consistently going left. why is thibodeau the only guys that sees this?

seriously though....the current rules make it almost impossible to guard great scorers. i honestly don't know how you can stop them.

[InspiredLebowski]

Scottie's voice always about blows my subwoofer

[jstern]

I didn't watch the NBA for a few years because of work, and then I put a game on, and it was so weird how the offensive player, (I forgot who) was able to just go by his guy almost without trying. I wasn't really aware of the rule changes, and it left me feeling that I would be able to play in the NBA game if I was tall enough. For me limiting the defense makes it an uglier game, but this is business and the NBA needs stars. Blame money.

[DwightHowardMVP]

Just another Bitter Old NBA head.

Scottie Pippen couldnt hold Kobe Or Lebron Jock strap.

80's 90's any rules any place any where

[catch24]

i love it. its so funny how the majority of teams don't realize how much worse these guys are going to their left. just look at this series. kobe can't make his jumper consistently going left. why is thibodeau the only guys that sees this?

seriously though....the current rules make it almost impossible to guard great scorers. i honestly don't know how you can stop them.

With the oldschool rules, I'd love to see how todays perimeter stars would fair. They would STILL be GREAT, obviously, but all this talk about 'Zone Defense' and how the defenses are "more advanced" is laughable. Theres no resistance today, none.

[ginobli2311]

With the oldschool rules, I'd love to see how todays perimeter stars would fair. They would STILL be GREAT, obviously, but all this talk about 'Zone Defense' and how the defenses are "more advanced" is laughable. Theres no resistance today, none.

defense overall is just as good better in today's game. mainly because so many players can't shoot....and also the lack of any skilled big men in the post. but perimeter players have a huge advantage. like you said....guys like wade/kobe/lebron would still be great.....but not nearly as efficient.

and then you have a guy like nash that would be significantly worse in the 90s.....

[Roundball_Rock]

The funny thing is the people on ISH who invoke handchecking the most are the people who diminish Pippen the most. They will sing songs about how every perimeter player under the sun from the 90's would be better now statistically while those from today would be worse in the 90's yet mysteriously you NEVER see them mention the handchecking spiel when Pippen is compared--unfavorably by them--to current players. Pip is the only 90's perimeter player who mysteriously would be worse today, even though he was the best perimeter player of the decade after Jordan. Oh well. The GOAT perimeter defender himself has spoken and taken their side on this so they will cheer his comment even though they will then compare him offensively to people like Odom or Prince when he was in reality a top 10 scorer in the league in his prime without MJ, despite being asked to run the offense (in other words, pass the ball off a lot instead of focusing just on scoring) while anchoring the defense. Remember 95' Pippen? He had to do EVERYTHING for that team before MJ came back in 95'.

[hwliuLAP]

so 1 on 1 defense is going less, and team help defense is coming alive.


sounds like high level of basketball to me.

[sayitaintso]

Old school rules made boys men. Today's rules make stars wear diapers. (diaper dandy - Dick Vitale).

[ReturnofJPR]

Phil Jackson has said, on record, that Michael Jordan could have averaged 50 ppg for an entire season if he played with these weak rules to make up for lost excitement once MJ retired.

[bada bing]

Phil Jackson has said, on record, that Michael Jordan could have averaged 50 ppg for an entire season if he played with these weak rules to make up for lost excitement once MJ retired.

i never heard this. when did he say this?

[ReturnofJPR]

i never heard this. when did he say this?

several years ago...nevertheless, it is common sense.

[AirGauge23]

Phil Jackson has said, on record, that Michael Jordan could have averaged 50 ppg for an entire season if he played with these weak rules to make up for lost excitement once MJ retired.

50's pushing it.

40? I can see it. On good % too.

[InspiredLebowski]

50's pushing it.

40? I can see it. On good % too. Yeah, I mean not like he ever put up 37 on 48% the year after a nasty ankle injury, or 35 per on 53%.

Seriously, I wasn't around for those late 80s MJ years, well I was but I was like 6 years old, but those numbers just floor me. I want to watch those entire seasons. Friggin 35 points a night on 53%?!

[ginobli2311]

The funny thing is the people on ISH who invoke handchecking the most are the people who diminish Pippen the most. They will sing songs about how every perimeter player under the sun from the 90's would be better now statistically while those from today would be worse in the 90's yet mysteriously you NEVER see them mention the handchecking spiel when Pippen is compared--unfavorably by them--to current players. Pip is the only 90's perimeter player who mysteriously would be worse today, even though he was the best perimeter player of the decade after Jordan. Oh well. The GOAT perimeter defender himself has spoken and taken their side on this so they will cheer his comment even though they will then compare him offensively to people like Odom or Prince when he was in reality a top 10 scorer in the league in his prime without MJ, despite being asked to run the offense (in other words, pass the ball off a lot instead of focusing just on scoring) while anchoring the defense. Remember 95' Pippen? He had to do EVERYTHING for that team before MJ came back in 95'.

i love pippen. you love pippen. i just think pippen is around the 35th best player ever. where do you have him?

[Carbine]

Why do people automatically think a more physical game benefits the defense? A guy like LeBron, a physical beast.... doesn't need to blow by you to be effective. Once he gets side by side with you it's over - you're at his mercy. The hand check isn't going to stop LeBron from getting you on his shoulder on the drive.

I actually think defenses are just as capable of shutting down star players as they were before the hand check. Check the stats of LeBron, Kobe & Wade in the playoffs since the arm check came into play.... they're not having 50 point nights every other night. Sh!t, if you score 40 points as a guard in the playoffs it's a heck of an accmplishment. The zone lets you load up on one player and if that guy's shot isn't falling, it's going to be a tough night.

[ginobli2311]

Why do people automatically think a more physical game benefits the defense? A guy like LeBron, a physical beast.... doesn't need to blow by you to be effective. Once he gets side by side with you it's over - you're at his mercy. The hand check isn't going to stop LeBron from getting you on his shoulder on the drive.

I actually think defenses are just as capable of shutting down star players as they were before the hand check. Check the stats of LeBron, Kobe & Wade in the playoffs since the arm check came into play.... they're not having 50 point nights every other night. Sh!t, if you score 40 points as a guard in the playoffs it's a heck of an accmplishment. The zone lets you load up on one player and if that guy's shot isn't falling, it's going to be a tough night.

simple. just look at what the celtics are able to do to guys like lebron/kobe. they play physical defense on the perimeter.

you seem to missing the point. if you can't handcheck then its really impossible to stay in front of a guy thats good. so you either have to lay off a little and make him a shooter......or press up and let him drive. both ways benefit the offensive player.

its not going to be a night and day difference. but guys like kobe/wade/lebron would need more shots to score their points with the old rules.....because they would get to the free throw line less and the defense would keep their penetration down as well.

[Carbine]

Basketball is a game where you have to give up something to the offensive player, though - You can't take everything away from great players. It's never been that way.

[ginobli2311]

Basketball is a game where you have to give up something to the offensive player, though - You can't take everything away from great players. It's never been that way.

agreed. thats why kobe/lebron/wade would be great....but they would not be as efficient. if they wanted to score the same amount....the would need around 2 more shots per game to do it. like i said....its not night and day....but enough to matter.

[Showtime]

Just another Bitter Old NBA head.
Honestly, you are the type of fans who are bitter, not the players. You are bitter because your man Dwight can't anchor a halfcourt offense. You are bitter that your man, who is regarded as the best center in the game, would probably be a borderline all star PF in the 80's and 90's. It doesn't surprise me the young fans think this way, because they all want to think that every current player > ever former player.

[Carbine]

I don't agree with that.

Jordan was great, but he wasn't so great as to shoot 50+ percentage in that era and have Wade & LeBron shoot 40 ish percent like you're implying. Kobe wouldn't shoot sub 40 percent.... sh!t he was scoring at 45 percent in the hand check era so I don't agree with your statement at all. It would be minimal, if at all.

[ginobli2311]

In 1999, the league eliminated contact by a defender with his hands and forearms both in the backcourt and frontcourt, except on offensive players who caught the ball below the free throw line extended. Defenses were also prohibited from "re-routing" players off the ball. This freed up perimeter players who used screens to get open. Nor were defenders able any more to grab or impede offensive players setting screens. In 2001, the defensive three-second rule eliminated defenders camping out in the lane away from their offensive man to help.

now. wade and lebron weren't playing in 99. kobe was.....but i don't think his first 3 years are a very good sample size to look at the difference.

just listen to the following:

"You can't even touch a guy now," says Charlotte coach Larry Brown. "The college game is much more physical than our game. I always tease Michael [Jordan], if he played today, he'd average 50."

sorry. but if you think its not noticeably easier for perimeter players now.....you didn't watch the game in the 90s....especially the the early 90's and late 80s.

[DwightHowardMVP]

several years ago...nevertheless, it is common sense.
No wonder People hate Jordan stans.


Phil Jackson NEVER said that.


And if you think its common sense take two steps of Jordan D*ck. He couldnt do anymore then 35 36

[DwightHowardMVP]

Honestly, you are the type of fans who are bitter, not the players. You are bitter because your man Dwight can't anchor a halfcourt offense. You are bitter that your man, who is regarded as the best center in the game, would probably be a borderline all star PF in the 80's and 90's. It doesn't surprise me the young fans think this way, because they all want to think that every current player > ever former player.
Pippen is Bitter PEriod!!!!


Dwight Howard> Any center not name Shaq, Hakeem sice the 90's
Yes he is better then Ewing, Alonzo, etc
And one of the best paint defenders of ALL TIME


I could care less of what he has to say. But how he said it made it bitter. As if he could be a 30 ppg today lol plz

[Carbine]

Didn't Kobe win a championship as a second fiddle in '99? Of course it's a good sample.

Just look at scorers from Jordans era. Wilkins scored a lot on 46 percent and higher throughout....Glyde was shooting 50 percent in his prime....Chris Mullen was shooting 52 percent in his prime.... Reggie Miller was shooting 50 percent in some seasons and always around 47.....

So I'm not seeing it.

[DwightHowardMVP]

Didn't Kobe win a championship as a second fiddle in '99? Of course it's a good sample.

Just look at scorers from Jordans era. Wilkins scored a lot on 46 percent and higher throughout....Glyde was shooting 50 percent in his prime....Chris Mullen was shooting 52 percent in his prime.... Reggie Miller was shooting 50 percent in some seasons and always around 47.....

So I'm not seeing it.

Exactly. So all these guards would shoot 55% plus today? :roll: ''
Hell No!

If anything these guys would average less due to superior athletes and defenders

[Alhazred]

Pippen is Bitter PEriod!!!!


Dwight Howard> Any center not name Shaq, Hakeem sice the 90's
Yes he is better then Ewing, Alonzo, etc
And one of the best paint defenders of ALL TIME


I could care less of what he has to say. But how he said it made it bitter. As if he could be a 30 ppg today lol plz

http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/2305/hemadl.jpg

You sound way more bitter than Pippen, he actually sounded like he was being fairly objective in that video.

[Soothsayer]

And Pippen is exactly right, as all of us who watched the change in defensive rules are aware of.

When Jordan left, scoring had dropped near an all time low, defenses were physical and tough. The league wanted to find and push "The next Jordan" and increase scoring to make the game more "appealing". What better way to do so than to allow the new guard of perimeter players more freedom to move and showcase their athleticism? All the rule changes were meant to make it easier to score.

They worked. Pippen isn't bitter in the least, he's simply making an observation which is obvious to all who have been watching basketball long enough. Pippen, one of the best defenders ever, saying this, lends credence and validity to it.

[ginobli2311]

Didn't Kobe win a championship as a second fiddle in '99? Of course it's a good sample.

Just look at scorers from Jordans era. Wilkins scored a lot on 46 percent and higher throughout....Glyde was shooting 50 percent in his prime....Chris Mullen was shooting 52 percent in his prime.... Reggie Miller was shooting 50 percent in some seasons and always around 47.....

So I'm not seeing it.

kobe won a title in his 4th year. which was 2000.....the year after the rules change.

so no.....you are wrong

are you comparing the shooting ability of miller and mullin to lebron/wade/kobe??????? if mullin had an inch you could book it....he was more of a shooter than a scorer for most of his career as well. scorers are the ones that would struggle the most.

[ginobli2311]

And Pippen is exactly right, as all of us who watched the change in defensive rules are aware of.

When Jordan left, scoring had dropped near an all time low, defenses were physical and tough. The league wanted to find and push "The next Jordan" and increase scoring to make the game more "appealing". What better way to do so than to allow the new guard of perimeter players more freedom to move and showcase their athleticism? All the rule changes were meant to make it easier to score.

They worked. Pippen isn't bitter in the least, he's simply making an observation which is obvious to all who have been watching basketball long enough. Pippen, one of the best defenders ever, saying this, lends credence and validity to it.


yea....i guess larry brown talking about how soft the nba is now is because he's bitter as well..

anyone with eyes and a brain knows how much easier it is now for perimeter scorers......its really just a fact.

[JtotheIzzo]

I love how they conveniently ignore the strong side help that was in THEIR era 'illegal defense.'

[DwightHowardMVP]

can't have it both ways.

Kobe, Artest are better defenders then pippen & Jordan. Because they actually move there feet when they play defense and still lock down players

Jordan & Pippen could just guard guys without sliding there feet imagine how much drastically worse defenders they would have been with no hand checking?

I doubt Jordan would even land a first team all defense let alone a DPOY

[ginobli2311]

can't have it both ways.

Kobe, Artest are better defenders then pippen & Jordan. Because they actually move there feet when they play defense and still lock down players

Jordan & Pippen could just guard guys without sliding there feet imagine how much drastically worse defenders they would have been with no hand checking?

I doubt Jordan would even land a first team all defense let alone a DPOY

ok....you are going to the extreme now.

we are simply saying that these players would be a little less efficient overall from the field. thats it.

and also....comparing the 2 best perimeter defenders of all time to artest and kobe is the biggest joke i've ever heard on here.

[Soothsayer]

can't have it both ways.

Kobe, Artest are better defenders then pippen & Jordan. Because they actually move there feet when they play defense and still lock down players

Jordan & Pippen could just guard guys without sliding there feet imagine how much drastically worse defenders they would have been with no hand checking?

I doubt Jordan would even land a first team all defense let alone a DPOY

LMAO. Nice post. How old are you?
Pippen and Jordan were both better defenders than either Artest or Kobe. Yes, Pippen and Jordan "moved their feet", and they were allowed to play better defense by the rules of the day.

Jordan was quicker than either Artest or Kobe, quicker hands, quicker feet, stronger than Kobe, better decision maker. Easy call.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Kobe, Artest are better defenders then pippen & Jordan.

:oldlol:

LMAO :oldlol:


I doubt Jordan would even land a first team all defense let alone a DPOY

Priceless. :oldlol:

[DwightHowardMVP]

ok....you are going to the extreme now.

we are simply saying that these players would be a little less efficient overall from the field. thats it.

and also....comparing the 2 best perimeter defenders of all time to artest and kobe is the biggest joke i've ever heard on here.

artest is not of of the greatest defenders off all-time? STOP!

How much people buy into propaganda is ridiculous.

You said it was extremely easy for guards to score now a days. Which would make is 10x harder to play defense? So you do the math

[DwightHowardMVP]

:oldlol:

LMAO :oldlol:



Priceless. :oldlol:

Prove me wrong. People claim its ridiculously easy to score now a days and Jordan would average 50ppg. So fill me in. If Kobe & artest can lock down players today what does that say?

[ginobli2311]

artest is not of of the greatest defenders off all-time? STOP!

How much people buy into propaganda is ridiculous.

You said it was extremely easy for guards to score now a days. Which would make is 10x harder to play defense? So you do the math

its harder to play defense now.....i totally agree with that. but jordan/pippen are on another planet in terms of defense compared to artest and kobe. even kobe/artest fans will tell you this.

dude......if you had watched the games since the late 80s to now you would understand this. trust me....pippen/jordan are the two best perimeter defenders ever....kobe/artest aren't even in that conversation.

[the_future02]

A 40 year old Jordan averaged 20 6 4 shooting 42%. What would a prime Jordan be able to do?

[DwightHowardMVP]

LMAO. Nice post. How old are you?
Pippen and Jordan were both better defenders than either Artest or Kobe. Yes, Pippen and Jordan "moved their feet", and they were allowed to play better defense by the rules of the day.

Jordan was quicker than either Artest or Kobe, quicker hands, quicker feet, stronger than Kobe, better decision maker. Easy call.
Are you dumb? What does being fast have to do with anything?
Shannon Brown is one of the most athletic players of all time and he cant even guard Fisher. Shane Battie is slow as sh*t but he locks down stars. How does that work?

If it is really as easier to core it is today then 90's KObe & Artest are better defenders then Mj & pippen no question

[Soothsayer]

A 40 year old Jordan averaged 20 6 4 shooting 42%. What would a prime Jordan be able to do?


40 year old Jordan shot 44.5%. :)

[Roundball_Rock]

Clearly the rule changes were designed to increase scoring. The question is why? Was this because of a lust for a "new Jordan" or because defenses had become so effective scoring plummeted? Perhaps it was a combination of the two, but the former's role is greatly exaggerated. A basic flaw in that theory is it assumes Jordan became the cultural phenomenon he did because of his dunks and playing style. There was more to it. You cannot simply recreate a "new Jordan" based on having a guy dunk well and score 30 ppg. You need a massive marketing budget and you need an articulate great player who is charismatic.

ginoboli, my point was more about hypocrisy than where Pippen ranks all-time. In his one full prime season without MJ he averaged 22/9/6/3 on 49% while playing in the triangle and being tasked to be his team's chief playmaker and defender and leader. If his role was just to score obviously he would have scored more. Let's say 24 or 25 ppg. Then, if we are to believe the handchecking theory, his stats would shoot up even more like they do for every other perimeter player from that area according to MJ fans. Yet Pippen mysteriously is the one perimeter player from that era who would be worse today according to MJ fans?! :confusedshrug:


A 40 year old Jordan averaged 20 6 4 shooting 42%. What would a prime Jordan be able to do?

He actually did average 37 ppg so why is 40 ppg out of question today? When he averaged 37 ppg he was not even at his peak but scored that much because he had a weak team. If you transported peak Jordan to a trash team today 40+ ppg is certainly reasonable.

[ginobli2311]

A 40 year old Jordan averaged 20 6 4 shooting 42%. What would a prime Jordan be able to do?

a 39 year old jordan averaged:

23 points 6 boards 5 assists on 42% shooting.

jordan actually averaged 45% at age 40.

[Soothsayer]

Are you dumb? What does being fast have to do with anything?
Shannon Brown is one of the most athletic players of all time and he cant even guard Fisher. Shane Battie is slow as sh*t but he locks down stars. How does that work?

If it is really as easier to core it is today then 90's KObe & Artest are better defenders then Mj & pippen no question


Your age has everything to do with it, because then, at least, you'd have an excuse for your ignorance and retarded statements.

Being "fast" and quick are very desirable qualities in a defensive player. Wow, what the hell is up with ISH? I feel like I have to explain the simplest things to utter retards lately.

Players can't guard people today BECAUSE of the rules. Smart players drive, get fouled, or get layups.

Jordan was far quicker than Artest, and quicker than Kobe. He was stronger than Kobe.

Not even a discussion. Educate yourself.

[DwightHowardMVP]

A 40 year old Jordan averaged 20 6 4 shooting 42%. What would a prime Jordan be able to do?
Uhmm anybody can score 20 a game on a losing team in the east lmao.

Just ask Danny Granger he put up 30

[ginobli2311]

Clearly the rule changes were designed to increase scoring. The question is why? Was this because of a lust for a "new Jordan" or because defenses had become so effective scoring plummeted? Perhaps it was a combination of the two, but the former's role is greatly exaggerated. A basic flaw in that theory is it assumes Jordan became the cultural phenomenon he did because of his dunks and playing style. There was more to it. You cannot simply recreate a "new Jordan" based on having a guy dunk well and score 30 ppg. You need a massive marketing budget and you need an articulate great player who is charismatic.

ginoboli, my point was more about hypocrisy than where Pippen ranks all-time. In his one full prime season without MJ he averaged 22/9/6/3 on 49% while playing in the triangle and being tasked to be his team's chief playmaker and defender and leader. If his role was just to score obviously he would have scored more. Let's say 24 or 25 ppg. Then, if we are to believe the handchecking theory, his stats would shoot up even more like they do for every other perimeter player from that area according to MJ fans. Yet Pippen mysteriously is the one perimeter player from that era who would be worse today according to MJ fans?! :confusedshrug:

no...i totally agree with everything you said. pippen is one of those guys that is so hard to figure out for me. i have no problem with someone putting him in the top 25 of all time....but i think that is about as high as i could go.

in today's game....pippen would have been capable of doing very close to what kobe/wade/lebron are doing. i totally agree with you on this.....

where do you rank pippen all time...i'm interested to know?

[DwightHowardMVP]

Your age has everything to do with it, because then, at least, you'd have an excuse for your ignorance and retarded statements.

Being "fast" and quick are very desirable qualities in a defensive player. Wow, what the hell is up with ISH? I feel like I have to explain the simplest things to utter retards lately.

Players can't guard people today BECAUSE of the rules. Smart players drive, get fouled, or get layups.

Jordan was far quicker than Artest, and quicker than Kobe. He was stronger than Kobe.

Not even a discussion. Educate yourself.

Lmao. you obviously know nothing about defense. If you think being fast & strong makes you a great defender lol

[OldSchoolBBall]

A 40 year old Jordan averaged 20 6 4 shooting 42%

It was actually 45%. And he averaged 23.2 pts/7.2 reb/3.8 ast/1.5 stl/.5 blk/46.2% FG in the final 30 games of the season after turning age 40.

[Soothsayer]

Uhmm anybody can score 20 a game on a losing team in the east lmao.

Just ask Danny Granger he put up 30

Most players at 40 average not even half what they did in their primes.

If an old, crusty MJ could average 40 on 45% shooting in this era, a 28 year old Jordan would decimate the league.

[DwightHowardMVP]

in today's game....pippen would have been capable of doing very close to what kobe/wade/lebron are doing. i totally agree with you on this.....



And people keep proving my point.

Kobe & artest are better defenders then Jordan & Pippen

[Soothsayer]

Lmao. you obviously know nothing about defense. If you think being fast & strong makes you a great defender lol


WTF? Can you not read kid? Being strong and fast HELP you be a good defender, they do not make you one. You are right, being weak and slow are advantages. LMAO *rolls eyes*

Is this a joke account? Are you pretending to be retarded as a joke?

[Soothsayer]

And people keep proving my point.

Kobe & artest are better defenders then Jordan & Pippen


Nobody proved your point. Your point is laughable and nobody takes you seriously.

[DwightHowardMVP]

Most players at 40 average not even half what they did in their primes.

If an old, crusty MJ could average 40 on 45% shooting in this era, a 28 year old Jordan would decimate the league.

I cant disagree.
Kobe> Jordan when it comes to defense
J

[ginobli2311]

Most players at 40 average not even half what they did in their primes.

If an old, crusty MJ could average 40 on 45% shooting in this era, a 28 year old Jordan would decimate the league.

and it wasn't just age with mj on the wizards. he was hurt all the time as well. when jordan was healthy he was shooting over 45% and scoring 23 points adding 6 boards and 5 assists.....at age 39 and 40.

forget 28....what would a 25 year old jordan do? i just think it well within logical reason that jordan could have averaged 40 on 55% from the field in this era during his prime.

[Roundball_Rock]

no...i totally agree with everything you said. pippen is one of those guys that is so hard to figure out for me. i have no problem with someone putting him in the top 25 of all time....but i think that is about as high as i could go.

in today's game....pippen would have been capable of doing very close to what kobe/wade/lebron are doing. i totally agree with you on this.....

where do you rank pippen all time...i'm interested to know?

He is hard to figure out because much of his greatness was on defense and in intangibles, i.e. leadership. Some outsiders on ISH and elsewhere question his leadership; none of his teammates or coaches do...As a scorer and a playmaker he was very good but not great.

He is around 22-26 on most lists. I have him somewhere between 18-23 depending on the day.


It was actually 45%. And he averaged 23.2 pts/7.2 reb/3.8 ast/1.5 stl/.5 blk/46.2% FG in the final 30 games of the season after turning age 40.

What he did the previous year prior to his injury was even more impressive. He was putting up 25/6/5 at age 38, albeit on only 42%. Compare that to the other top SG's at the time.

Kobe: 25/5.5/5.5 47% (23 years old)
T Mac: 26/8/5 45% (22 years old)
VC: 25/5/4 43%
Allen: 22/4/4 45.5% (26 years old)
Stackhouse: 21/4/5 40% (27 years old)

[the_future02]

a 39 year old jordan averaged:

23 points 6 boards 5 assists on 42% shooting.

jordan actually averaged 45% at age 40.


My numbers were slightly off but they prove every thing Scottie said

[plowking]

Why are all star perimeter players shooting lower percentages then if it's easier to score?

[Sticks]

Why are all star perimeter players shooting lower percentages then if it's easier to score?

Because they play on the perimeter.

[ginobli2311]

Why are all star perimeter players shooting lower percentages then if it's easier to score?

because the game used to be played inside out. it forced defenses to collapse and allow for better shots on the perimeter. also.....players now get to the line more often. for example...drexler averaged less than 6 attempts per game for his career. lebron averages 9 attempts. kobe averages 8. wade averages 9. durant averages 8 for his career but averaged 10 this year.....to put that into perspective....jordan averaged over 10 free throws only twice in his career and averaged 8 total. dominique averaged less than 7 for his career as well.

and perimeter players really are not shooting lower percentages. wade/lebron/nash/durant....all have higher or equal fg% numbers than the a lot perimeter players in the 90s

[plowking]

because the game used to be played inside out. it forced defenses to collapse and allow for better shots on the perimeter. also.....players now get to the line more often. for example...drexler averaged less than 6 attempts per game for his career. lebron averages 9 attempts. kobe averages 8. wade averages 9. durant averages 8 for his career but averaged 10 this year.....to put that into perspective....jordan averaged over 10 free throws only twice in his career and averaged 8 total. dominique averaged less than 7 for his career as well.

and perimeter players really are not shooting lower percentages. wade/lebron/nash/durant....all have higher or equal fg% numbers than the a lot perimeter players in the 90s

Don't compare Nash to perimeter scorers. How is that remotely similar?

Why was there more star players scoring 25+ppg on higher than 50% FG than there is now?

[branslowski]

I may be the only one who thinks this....But the Hand-checking rule is kinda overrated...

Especially when I see players in the 80's putting up some big numbers, where I say i know for a FACT that Kobe/Wade are much better skilled scorers then some of these players...

IMO, Wade and Kobe are better players and scorers than a Dominique Wilkins...Just sayin, these "rules" wouldn't effect the Superstars in this league in no way...And, teams in the 80's were scoring freely at will....

Plus, watching games, players still get away with an arm bar...And iv'e seen Kobe, LeBron, Wade make a move and get seperation...

And 02' was the best defensive Era then...Zone/And Hand-checkin was allowed.

[branslowski]

Don't compare Nash to perimeter scorers. How is that remotely similar?

Why was there more star players scoring 25+ppg on higher than 50% FG than there is now?

This.


Something just doesn't add up....But I don't touch this topic because many get butthurt...

[ginobli2311]

I may be the only one who thinks this....But the Hand-checking rule is kinda overrated...

Especially when I see players in the 80's putting up some big numbers, where I say i know for a FACT that Kobe/Wade are much better skilled scorers then some of these players...

IMO, Wade and Kobe are better players and scorers than a Dominique Wilkins...Just sayin, these "rules" wouldn't effect the Superstars in this league in no way...And, teams in the 80's were scoring freely at will....

Plus, watching games, players still get away with an arm bar...And iv'e seen Kobe, LeBron, Wade make a move and get seperation...

And 02' was the best defensive Era then...Zone/And Hand-checkin was allowed.

nope. it went away in 99 and 01....hand checking was not allowed in 02

[ginobli2311]

Don't compare Nash to perimeter scorers. How is that remotely similar?

Why was there more star players scoring 25+ppg on higher than 50% FG than there is now?

who was scoring 25 points on over 50%?

99: nobody
98: nobody
97: nobody
96: jordan
95: nobody
94: nobody
93: mullin/jordan
92: mullin/jordan
91: mullin/jordan
90: mullin/jordan

again......who was scoring over 25 on 50% from the perimeter???????

[branslowski]

nope. it went away in 99 and 01....hand checking was not allowed in 02

No, but the league didn't make Refs call it untill 04-05...Atleast I thought.

[Fatal9]

Why was there more star players scoring 25+ppg on higher than 50% FG than there is now?
Exactly. Since Chris Mullin in the early 90s, Lebron was the first perimeter player this year to average 25+ ppg on 50+%, and he barely did it.

Those type of seasons in the mid 80s to early 90s happened all the time. List of guys who accomplished that feat: Kiki V, Dantley, Aguirre, Dale Ellis, Drexler, Mullin, English, King, MJ, Bird, couple of others came close and I'm sure I am forgetting some names too (stopped happening around mid 90s when help defense improved, overall commitment to defense by teams was greater and also perimeter talent was crap). Purvis Short was putting up 26 ppg on near 50%, and I'm to think Kobe and Wade are going to have problems scoring in this era? Especially with them getting a million semi-transition looks all game long, with horrible help defense (which didn't improve until the Pistons showed how), amongst several other factors.

The era shit is getting out of control.

I wish these guys would actually watch games from their golden era and realize how common 70+ FTA games were, how they softened up "flagrant fouls" at the start of the 90s (due to Pistons), and realize how many touch fouls there were and so on. The most physical era in the NBA was actually the 70s. And rules eliminated REAL, physical handchecking in '79:


1978-79
Clarification added to prohibit hand-checking through “rigid enforcement” of rule allowing a defensive player to retain contact with his opponent so long as he does not impede his opponent’s progress.

In the 80s, I've seen handchecking get called all the time. Commentators pointing out on replays how the guy was not allowed to handcheck etc. SI published an entire feature article in the 80s because NBA defense was perceived as a JOKE. Poor help defense, no zone, less and less physicality, and so on. That's how everybody thought of it at the time. Handchecking was still allowed in the backcourt however to pressure the ball handler, but they eliminated that altogether in '94.

The same BS complaints people have now, people had back then. I saw old timers from the 70s like Norm Van Lier on half time segments making fun of how you couldn't guard Jordan because of all the favorable rules for him (isolation, lack of physicality etc). I'll gladly upload video of couple of them talking about this because I think I saved it somewhere. And the same "handchecking" complaints were going on in '93, in fact here's an NY Times article:


Published: March 28, 1993
The increase of flagrant fouls and violence between players in today's National Basketball Association is a direct result of the elimination of the defensive hand check from games. Physical contact has always been a part of modern professional basketball. But when the N.B.A. abolished a defensive player's ability to use the hand check as a way of slowing down the offensive player he was guarding, players began finding new ways to keep their opponents from going to the hoop. As a result, the hip check has replaced the hand check, as frustrated players try to limit their opponents' scoring chances.

It is time for the N.B.A. to reinstate the use of the hand-check.


My favorite player (Bird) comes from this era, and I've had to stop watching games because the defense was that bad. Like no one ever going 10 feet within guys shooting just because they wanted to get the ball ASAP to start a break. I will gladly upload random regular season games from late 80s and let you see for yourselves.

[ginobli2311]

Exactly. Since Chris Mullin in the early 90s, Lebron was the first perimeter player this year to average 25+ ppg on 50+%, and he barely did it.

Those type of seasons in the mid 80s to early 90s happened all the time. List of guys who accomplished that feat: Kiki V, Dantley, Aguirre, Dale Ellis, Drexler, Mullin, English, King, MJ, Bird, couple of others came close and I'm sure I am forgetting some names too. Purvis Short was putting up 26 ppg on near 50%, and I'm to think Kobe and Wade are going to have problems scoring in this era? Especially with them getting a million semi-transition looks all game long, with horrible help defense (which didn't improve until the Pistons showed how), amongst several other factors.

The era shit is getting out of control.

I wish these guys would actually watch games from their golden era and realize how common 70+ FTA games were, how they softened up "flagrant fouls" at the start of the 90s (due to Pistons), and realize how many touch fouls there were and so on. The most physical era in the NBA was actually the 70s. And rules eliminated REAL, physical handchecking in '79:



In the 80s, I've seen handchecking get called all the time. Commentators pointing out on replays how the guy was not allowed to handcheck etc. SI published an entire feature article in the 80s because NBA defense was perceived as a JOKE. Poor help defense, no zone, less and less physicality, and so on. That's how everybody thought of it at the time. Handchecking was still allowed in the backcourt however to pressure the ball handler, but they eliminated that altogether in '94.

The same BS complaints people have now, people had back then. I saw old timers from the 70s like Norm Van Lier on half time segments making fun of how you couldn't guard Jordan because of all the favorable rules for him (isolation, lack of physicality etc). I'll gladly upload video of couple of them talking about this because I think I saved it somewhere. And the same "handchecking" complaints were going on in '93, in fact here's an NY Times article:



My favorite player (Bird) comes from this era, and I've had to stop watching games because the defense was that bad. Like no one ever going 10 feet within guys shooting just because they wanted to get the ball ASAP to start a break. I will gladly upload random regular season games from late 80s and let you see for yourselves.

uhhh.....the simple fact that lebron can do this makes our point for us dude. chris mullin was a very rare player. he was a great scorer that was also a knock down shooter. similar to ray allen.....just a little better all around during this time. if you gave mullin an inch the ball was going in from anywhere on the court.

mullin did this while only averaging around 5 free throw attempts per game as well. mullin's stats are also a little misleading because of the system he played in with ritchmond and tim hardaway....averaging 116 points per game.

context people...its all about context.

[Micku]

I'm confused about the "speed" of what he was talking about. If he means the speed of the game, I think the speed of the game was faster in the 80s and 90s. It seems like they played a lot of one on one basketball, and they get the ball to the hoop quicker.

I agree with him about the perimeter hand-checking. This rule encourage driving to the perimeter players, and guys like LeBron is very hard to guard it is almost unfair. It encourage more team defense to stop perimeter players. Hand-checking would help against players who drive to the paint.

I like this video on hand-checking, and I think this would help around (2:10):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xJJNUkrdyQ&playnext_from=TL&videos=WQ5lNEkxgbU

But it's not like you don't see hand-checking today. The 2008 Celtics got away with it. You'll see a few players who put their hands on players when they drive. There were some hand-checking last game too, so meh.

[magnax1]

uhhh.....the simple fact that lebron can do this makes our point for us dude. chris mullin was a very rare player. he was a great scorer that was also a knock down shooter. similar to ray allen.....just a little better all around during this time. if you gave mullin an inch the ball was going in from anywhere on the court.

mullin did this while only averaging around 5 free throw attempts per game as well. mullin's stats are also a little misleading because of the system he played in with ritchmond and tim hardaway....averaging 116 points per game.

context people...its all about context.
Exactly, you have to put all stats in context. Some guy was arguing about Kareem vs. Jordan with stats, when they played in completely different eras (prime wise)
Wilt's 25-25-8 and 50-28 seasons were dominant statistically compared to his peers
Kareem's 35-18 season was dominant statistically compared to his peers
Jordan's 33-8-8 season was dominant compared to his peers
Shaq's 30-14 was dominant compared to his peers.
You have to put it in context, you can't say kareem was better because he was putting up better stats in an era where it was easier to get rebounds, or Wilt was better then Kareem because he scored more in an era where teams scored 50% more. I know most people understand this, and its obvious, but what I'm trying to say is that you can't take stats at face value. Yeah, maybe 80's players would score more in this era, maybe less, but that really doesn't matter because its true of any era, Kobe would probably score more in the 60's. You can't look to much into stats, especially across eras. You just have to watch to see who was better.
So really, this conversation is stupid. Obviously 80s and 90s players stats would be different today, but not their impact.

[hitmanyr2k]

Never mind the defensive rule changes. I would like to see some of the old school stars talk about offensive flopping and how pathetic it looks (and sounds). Changing the rules was bad enough but the offensive player has taken it to the next step screaming their lungs out and having seizures on the court from minimal contact trying to draw a whistle. It sucks for the defender when he gets handcuffed on the perimeter by Stern's rules and still has to put up with the antics of star players pretending to get fouled. The only guy who really pulled that crap back in the 80's - 90's was Reggie Miller.

[ginobli2311]

just look at how the game is changed.

7 players scored over 25 points this year. all of them were perimeter players. that was not happening in the 90s.

09: 6 players.....all perimeter
08: 5 players.....4 perimeter
07: 11 players......all perimeter
06: 11 players......10 perimeter
05: 8 players.......7 perimeter
04: 1 player.....perimeter
03: 6 players.....5 perimeter
02: 7 players.....5 perimeter
01: 9 players.....7 perimeter
00: 6 players......3 perimeter

in the entire decade.....59 times did a perimeter player score over 25 points per game for the season.

99: 2 players....1 perimeter
98: 2 players.....1 perimeter
97: 4 players.....3 perimeter
96: 4 players.....1 perimeter
95: 4 players.....0 perimeter
94: 6 players.....1 perimeter
93: 5 players.....2 perimeter
92: 5 players....3 perimeter
91: 6 players.....3 perimeter
90: 7 players.....4 perimeter

in the entire decade......19 times did a perimeter player score over 25 for the season. 7 of those were from jordan.

so 59 to 19.....LOL

case closed folks........

[torontofan]

Pippen is Bitter PEriod!!!!


Dwight Howard> Any center not name Shaq, Hakeem sice the 90's
Yes he is better then Ewing, Alonzo, etc
And one of the best paint defenders of ALL TIME


I could care less of what he has to say. But how he said it made it bitter. As if he could be a 30 ppg today lol plz

Dwight Howard's probably at the level of Mutombo. It he improves his offensive game, I would rate him higher.

[eliteballer]

Too bad handchecking didn't stop Kobe from d*cking you in the 99 and 00 playoffs Scottie:roll:

[DwightHowardMVP]

Exactly. Since Chris Mullin in the early 90s, Lebron was the first perimeter player this year to average 25+ ppg on 50+%, and he barely did it.

Those type of seasons in the mid 80s to early 90s happened all the time. List of guys who accomplished that feat: Kiki V, Dantley, Aguirre, Dale Ellis, Drexler, Mullin, English, King, MJ, Bird, couple of others came close and I'm sure I am forgetting some names too (stopped happening around mid 90s when help defense improved, overall commitment to defense by teams was greater and also perimeter talent was crap). Purvis Short was putting up 26 ppg on near 50%, and I'm to think Kobe and Wade are going to have problems scoring in this era? Especially with them getting a million semi-transition looks all game long, with horrible help defense (which didn't improve until the Pistons showed how), amongst several other factors.

The era shit is getting out of control.

I wish these guys would actually watch games from their golden era and realize how common 70+ FTA games were, how they softened up "flagrant fouls" at the start of the 90s (due to Pistons), and realize how many touch fouls there were and so on. The most physical era in the NBA was actually the 70s. And rules eliminated REAL, physical handchecking in '79:



In the 80s, I've seen handchecking get called all the time. Commentators pointing out on replays how the guy was not allowed to handcheck etc. SI published an entire feature article in the 80s because NBA defense was perceived as a JOKE. Poor help defense, no zone, less and less physicality, and so on. That's how everybody thought of it at the time. Handchecking was still allowed in the backcourt however to pressure the ball handler, but they eliminated that altogether in '94.

The same BS complaints people have now, people had back then. I saw old timers from the 70s like Norm Van Lier on half time segments making fun of how you couldn't guard Jordan because of all the favorable rules for him (isolation, lack of physicality etc). I'll gladly upload video of couple of them talking about this because I think I saved it somewhere. And the same "handchecking" complaints were going on in '93, in fact here's an NY Times article:



My favorite player (Bird) comes from this era, and I've had to stop watching games because the defense was that bad. Like no one ever going 10 feet within guys shooting just because they wanted to get the ball ASAP to start a break. I will gladly upload random regular season games from late 80s and let you see for yourselves.


Great Post and good insight.

[ginobli2311]

Great Post and good insight.

yes....just ignore the evidence:

just look at how the game is changed.

7 players scored over 25 points this year. all of them were perimeter players. that was not happening in the 90s.

09: 6 players.....all perimeter
08: 5 players.....4 perimeter
07: 11 players......all perimeter
06: 11 players......10 perimeter
05: 8 players.......7 perimeter
04: 1 player.....perimeter
03: 6 players.....5 perimeter
02: 7 players.....5 perimeter
01: 9 players.....7 perimeter
00: 6 players......3 perimeter

in the entire decade.....59 times did a perimeter player score over 25 points per game for the season.

99: 2 players....1 perimeter
98: 2 players.....1 perimeter
97: 4 players.....3 perimeter
96: 4 players.....1 perimeter
95: 4 players.....0 perimeter
94: 6 players.....1 perimeter
93: 5 players.....2 perimeter
92: 5 players....3 perimeter
91: 6 players.....3 perimeter
90: 7 players.....4 perimeter

in the entire decade......19 times did a perimeter player score over 25 for the season. 7 of those were from jordan.

so 59 to 19.....LOL

case closed folks........

[DwightHowardMVP]

I'm confused about the "speed" of what he was talking about. If he means the speed of the game, I think the speed of the game was faster in the 80s and 90s. It seems like they played a lot of one on one basketball, and they get the ball to the hoop quicker.

I agree with him about the perimeter hand-checking. This rule encourage driving to the perimeter players, and guys like LeBron is very hard to guard it is almost unfair. It encourage more team defense to stop perimeter players. Hand-checking would help against players who drive to the paint.

I like this video on hand-checking, and I think this would help around (2:10):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xJJNUkrdyQ&playnext_from=TL&videos=WQ5lNEkxgbU

But it's not like you don't see hand-checking today. The 2008 Celtics got away with it. You'll see a few players who put their hands on players when they drive. There were some hand-checking last game too, so meh.


Someone who actually understands it :applause:

People in here thinking with no hand checking Pippen turns into a Kobe, Lebron, Wade offensive player. Comedic Gold.
If people actually watch games players get away with hand checking ALL THE TIME.

[ginobli2311]

Someone who actually understands it :applause:

People in here thinking with no hand checking Pippen turns into a Kobe, Lebron, Wade offensive player. Comedic Gold.
If people actually watch games players get away with hand checking ALL THE TIME.

pippen could have easily averaged 25 points a game on 46% from the field in the current era.......easily

again you ignore my post. 3 times as many perimeter players scored over 25 a game for a season this decade than in the 90s.....LOL (and jordan had 7 of the 19)

just keep ignoring it. i wonder why??????? could it be that it was easier to score from the perimeter...??????? logic....its amazing

[eliteballer]

[QUOTE]1978-79
Clarification added to prohibit hand-checking through

[DwightHowardMVP]

pippen could have easily averaged 25 points a game on 46% from the field in the current era.......easily

again you ignore my post. 3 times as many perimeter players scored over 25 a game for a season this decade than in the 90s.....LOL (and jordan had 7 of the 19)

just keep ignoring it. i wonder why??????? could it be that it was easier to score from the perimeter...??????? logic....its amazing


25 ppg aint on kobe lebron level. These guys can drop 40 a night if they force it. Pippen will never be able to do that.

Monta ellis averaged 25ppg is he on Kobe, Lebron Level?

Either your stupid or live overseas and dont watch basketball games and makeup for it via stats lmao

[ginobli2311]

25 ppg aint on kobe lebron level. These guys can drop 40 a night if they force it. Pippen will never be able to do that.

Monta ellis averaged 25ppg is he on Kobe, Lebron Level?

Either your stupid or live overseas and dont watch basketball games and makeup for it via stats lmao

pippen does other things much better than kobe/lebron. he is a much better defender than both. he's a better rebounder than kobe and just as good of a passer.

he would not be as good of a scorer.....but he would average over 25 a game in this era if he wanted to.

[ginobli2311]

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html

Funny, it was "loosened up" in 94-95, yet you wont hear any of these chumps claim defense was better in the 80's or early 90's compared to the late 90's or early 00's. :violin:

i honestly don't know what you are trying to say....but those changes in the rules perfectly fit with the increased perimeter scoring in the nba.

[DwightHowardMVP]

pippen does other things much better than kobe/lebron. he is a much better defender than both. he's a better rebounder than kobe and just as good of a passer.

he would not be as good of a scorer.....but he would average over 25 a game in this era if he wanted to.


Do you back pedal in every single one of your arguments ?


You said Pippen would be On Kobe, Lebon, Wade level offensively

Why are you talking about rebounding and defense? and now mentioning 25 ppg?

Take your loss and move along.

[ginobli2311]

Do you back pedal in every single one of your arguments ?


You said Pippen would be On Kobe, Lebon, Wade level offensively

Why are you talking about rebounding and defense? and now mentioning 25 ppg?

Take your loss and move along.

my exact quote moron:

in today's game....pippen would have been capable of doing very close to what kobe/wade/lebron are doing. i totally agree with you on this.....

is 25 points per game not very close....considering that is basically kobe's career average??????

moron......actually read the post before you reply

moron.....still waiting for you to explain that 3 times as many perimeter players averaged over 25 points per game in the last decade. but i guess its not easier to score from the perimeter now....LOL

****ing owned every post.....its so fun

[plowking]

yes....just ignore the evidence:

just look at how the game is changed.

7 players scored over 25 points this year. all of them were perimeter players. that was not happening in the 90s.

09: 6 players.....all perimeter
08: 5 players.....4 perimeter
07: 11 players......all perimeter
06: 11 players......10 perimeter
05: 8 players.......7 perimeter
04: 1 player.....perimeter
03: 6 players.....5 perimeter
02: 7 players.....5 perimeter
01: 9 players.....7 perimeter
00: 6 players......3 perimeter

in the entire decade.....59 times did a perimeter player score over 25 points per game for the season.

99: 2 players....1 perimeter
98: 2 players.....1 perimeter
97: 4 players.....3 perimeter
96: 4 players.....1 perimeter
95: 4 players.....0 perimeter
94: 6 players.....1 perimeter
93: 5 players.....2 perimeter
92: 5 players....3 perimeter
91: 6 players.....3 perimeter
90: 7 players.....4 perimeter

in the entire decade......19 times did a perimeter player score over 25 for the season. 7 of those were from jordan.

so 59 to 19.....LOL

case closed folks........

Once again your post is irrelevant. Perimeter players have the ball in their hands more as it's harder for post players to score with current rules. Hence they might take more shots to get points, but they still aren't doing it as efficiently as the 80's and 90's.

You wanna know why? Because it isn't easier to score today for perimeter players.

[ginobli2311]

Once again your post is irrelevant. Perimeter players have the ball in their hands more as it's harder for post players to score with current rules. Hence they might take more shots to get points, but they still aren't doing it as efficiently as the 80's and 90's.

You wanna know why? Because it isn't easier to score today for perimeter players.

hahahahaha
hahahahaha

its not easier now......so the game just changed over night because its harder to score from the perimeter?

that makes a lot of sense. so its harder for post players to score but its not easier for perimeter players. hmmmmmm. so the soft defensive rules, the defensive three second rule, and the huge increase in perimeter scoring should all be ignored because......wait for it......you say so.

and.....the icing on the cake.........to blow your point out of the water

michael jordan averaged 1.33 points per shot........lebron james so far has averaged 1.34 points per shot........wade is averaging 1.38 points per shot

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. uh oh........looks like the greatest player ever was less efficient than lebron james and wade.....LOL.......

what can you say to that dude......what can you say to that?????

[jstern]

Someone who actually understands it :applause:

People in here thinking with no hand checking Pippen turns into a Kobe, Lebron, Wade offensive player. Comedic Gold.
If people actually watch games players get away with hand checking ALL THE TIME.
You have to use your logic a little bit. There's a big difference between being able to hand check all the time, and getting away with it on occasion. Huge difference.

[plowking]

hahahahaha
hahahahaha

its not easier now......so the game just changed over night because its harder to score from the perimeter?

that makes a lot of sense. so its harder for post players to score but its not easier for perimeter players. hmmmmmm. so the soft defensive rules, the defensive three second rule, and the huge increase in perimeter scoring should all be ignored because......wait for it......you say so.

Or because percentages support it?

Let's just deny that star perimeter players scored at a higher efficiency in the 80's and 90's. You really believe Vandegwhe would be dropping 30ppg on 50+% shooting this era?

[Rizko]

hahahahaha
hahahahaha

its not easier now......so the game just changed over night because its harder to score from the perimeter?

that makes a lot of sense. so its harder for post players to score but its not easier for perimeter players. hmmmmmm. so the soft defensive rules, the defensive three second rule, and the huge increase in perimeter scoring should all be ignored because......wait for it......you say so.
Why does it need to be easier or harder? Can't it just be the same, neither easier nor harder? Plowking is saying that since the rules prohibit the effectiveness of post play (along with the lack of great centers) it leads to more perimeter players taking more shots and being more relied upon to score now-a-days as opposed to the 90's and earlier times.

[ginobli2311]

Or because percentages support it?

Let's just deny that star perimeter players scored at a higher efficiency in the 80's and 90's. You really believe Vandegwhe would be dropping 30ppg on 50+% shooting this era?

michael jordan averaged 1.33 points per shot........lebron james so far has averaged 1.34 points per shot........wade is averaging 1.38 points per shot

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. uh oh........looks like the greatest player ever was less efficient than lebron james and wade.....LOL.......

what can you say to that dude......what can you say to that?????

so coaches and players all agree that it easier so score in today's game from the perimeter. you have wade and lebron being more efficient than jordan as well.
what more proof do you need? or are you going to say that wade/lebron are superior offensive players than jordan?

[DwightHowardMVP]

my exact quote moron:

in today's game....pippen would have been capable of doing very close to what kobe/wade/lebron are doing. i totally agree with you on this.....

is 25 points per game not very close....considering that is basically kobe's career average??????

moron......actually read the post before you reply

moron.....still waiting for you to explain that 3 times as many perimeter players averaged over 25 points per game in the last decade. but i guess its not easier to score from the perimeter now....LOL

****ing owned every post.....its so fun


Once again why do you revert to stats? Lmao.

Any all-star can put up 25 a game does that put the on the same offensive level as Kobe, Lebron , Wade. HELL NO.

Because they could all average 35 a game if they wanted to.


ANyone with common sense knows its harder to score now then the 90's


Hald the 90's players wouldnt even be on a roster today lmao

[DwightHowardMVP]

hahahahaha
hahahahaha

its not easier now......so the game just changed over night because its harder to score from the perimeter?

that makes a lot of sense. so its harder for post players to score but its not easier for perimeter players. hmmmmmm. so the soft defensive rules, the defensive three second rule, and the huge increase in perimeter scoring should all be ignored because......wait for it......you say so.

and.....the icing on the cake.........to blow your point out of the water

michael jordan averaged 1.33 points per shot........lebron james so far has averaged 1.34 points per shot........wade is averaging 1.38 points per shot

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. uh oh........looks like the greatest player ever was less efficient than lebron james and wade.....LOL.......

what can you say to that dude......what can you say to that?????


Are you dumb? If Lebron & Wade ever averaged 37 ppg there efficiency would drop so fast it wouldn't even be funny.

Im starting to think you're just stupid now

[Rizko]

michael jordan averaged 1.33 points per shot........lebron james so far has averaged 1.34 points per shot........wade is averaging 1.38 points per shot

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. uh oh........looks like the greatest player ever was less efficient than lebron james and wade.....LOL.......

what can you say to that dude......what can you say to that?????
The difference between 1.33, 1.34 and 1.38 are extremely negligible. It's a reach to say say a .04 difference in efficiency is indicative of easier rules. If they were to shoot 100 shots at that rate Wade would only be scoring 4 more points then Jordan, which is extremely small in the scheme of things. Also the average for Jordan is most likely being lowered due to his Wizards years

Edit: I don't really know which "era" has stronger defense. I was just pointing out your argument in this post is really weak.

[ginobli2311]

Once again why do you revert to stats? Lmao.

Any all-star can put up 25 a game does that put the on the same offensive level as Kobe, Lebron , Wade. HELL NO.

Because they could all average 35 a game if they wanted to.


ANyone with common sense knows its harder to score now then the 90's


Hald the 90's players wouldnt even be on a roster today lmao

i honestly don't think you have a brain. i said pippen could do it at the same efficiency levels....and i also said he could come close....which means....as i have already said......that pippen would not be able to equal those players.

just read my last post......both lebron and wade are more efficient scorers than jordean was. that is proof enough how much easier it is to score in the current era. its laughable to think a player as limited offensively as lebron could score the ball more efficiently than michael jordan.

its easier to score from the perimeter in today's game....everything supports this.

****ing owned again.

[ginobli2311]

The difference between 1.33, 1.34 and 1.38 are extremely negligible. It's a reach to say say a .04 difference in efficiency is indicative of easier rules. If they were to shoot 100 shots at that rate Wade would only be scoring 4 more points then Jordan, which is extremely small in the scheme of things. Also the average for Jordan is most likely being lowered due to his Wizards years

Edit: I don't really know which "era" has stronger defense. I was just pointing out your argument in this post is really weak.

agreed......its a small difference....but the simple fact that lebron can score 28 points per game for his career (jordan averaged 30) at a more efficient clip is very telling. don't tell me that those players are even remotely close in terms of offensive ability.

[DwightHowardMVP]

agreed......its a small difference....but the simple fact that lebron can score 28 points per game for his career (jordan averaged 30) at a more efficient clip is very telling. don't tell me that those players are even remotely close in terms of offensive ability.

Not close? Lebron might be better offensively . 10x the passer Jordan ever was. 10x the court vison Jordan had. Gets to the hoop better then Jordan. Finishes around the hoop Better then Jordan. Better 3 point shooter then Jordan

shall i continue?



P.S Get off Jordan d1ck

[ginobli2311]

Are you dumb? If Lebron & Wade ever averaged 37 ppg there efficiency would drop so fast it wouldn't even be funny.

Im starting to think you're just stupid now


jordan averaged 30 per game....lebron averages 28. i have no idea why you would reference jordan's highest ppg average.

sorry dude.....you are just dead wrong........saying things like half the players in the 90s would not be in the league.....lol.

just patently false.

[ginobli2311]

Not close? Lebron might be better offensively . 10x the passer Jordan ever was. 10x the court vison Jordan had. Gets to the hoop better then Jordan. Finishes around the hoop Better then Jordan. Better 3 point shooter then Jordan

shall i continue?



P.S Get off Jordan d1ck

so wade is close as well? how many players are we going to start comparing to jordan because of this soft ass defensive era. again....you make my point for me. so we have kobe/tmac/lebron/wade/carmelo all equal to or superior to jordan in terms of offensive efficiency............LOL

[DwightHowardMVP]

jordan averaged 30 per game....lebron averages 28. i have no idea why you would reference jordan's highest ppg average.

sorry dude.....you are just dead wrong........saying things like half the players in the 90s would not be in the league.....lol.

just patently false.

Like for real are you a little slow?

So your going to give me his numbers incuding the end of his career where he put up the worst numbers in his career and the 2 wizard years. To Lebron playing up to his prime right now?
:ohwell:


Just stop.

You keep making yourself look dumber

[Rizko]

agreed......its a small difference....but the simple fact that lebron can score 28 points per game for his career (jordan averaged 30) at a more efficient clip is very telling. don't tell me that those players are even remotely close in terms of offensive ability.
PPS also includes free throws. So it's possible for Lebron to be more statically efficient while not being a good of a scorer. And like I said Jordan's PPS is most likely dragged down due to his Wizards years, when Lebron gets older I'm sure his PPS will drop as well.

[DwightHowardMVP]

so wade is close as well? how many players are we going to start comparing to jordan because of this soft ass defensive era. again....you make my point for me. so we have kobe/tmac/lebron/wade/carmelo all equal to or superior to jordan in terms of offensive efficiency............LOL
Yeah just goes to show how overrated Jordan was. Imagined if he played today with zones and big defenders not gary paytons. His numbers would drop even more.

At least you can see this now tho

[Manute for Ever!]

Let's break down the stupidity of DwightHowardMVP's posts in this thread:

Just another Bitter Old NBA head.

Scottie Pippen couldnt hold Kobe Or Lebron Jock strap.

80's 90's any rules any place any where

This one speaks for itself. Pippen played in the NBA during Kobe's first eight seasons, five of which were in the 'no hand-checking' era, and did fine, especially on defence. I know how you kids like stats:

Season ------- Age ------- Team ------- G ---- MPG ------- PPG ------- SPG
1996-97
Pippen ------- 31 ------- CHI ------- 82 ------- 37.7 ------- 20.2 ------- 1.8
Bryant ------- 18 ------- LAL ------- 71 ------- 15.5 ------- 7.6 ------- 0.7

1997-98
Pippen ------- 32 ------- CHI ------- 44 ------- 37.5 ------- 19.1 ------- 1.8
Bryant ------- 19 ------- LAL ------- 79 ------- 26.0 ------- 15.4 ------- 0.9

1998-99
Pippen ------- 33 ------- HOU ------- 50 ------- 40.2 ------- 14.5 ------- 1.9
Bryant ------- 20 ------- LAL ------- 50 ------- 37.9 ------- 19.9 ------- 1.4

1999-00
Pippen ------- 34 ------- POR ------- 82 ------- 33.5 ------- 12.5 -------1.4
Bryant ------- 21 ------- LAL ------- 66 ------- 38.2 ------- 22.5 ------- 1.6

2000-01
Pippen ------- 35 ------- POR ------- 64 ------- 33.3 ------- 11.3 ------- 1.4
Bryant ------- 22 ------- LAL ------- 68 ------- 40.9 ------- 28.5 ------- 1.6

2001-02
Pippen ------- 36 ------- POR ------- 62 ------- 32.2 ------- 10.6 ------- 1.6
Bryant ------- 23 ------- LAL ------- 80 ------- 38.3 ------- 25.2 ------- 1.4

2002-03
Pippen ------- 37 ------- POR ------- 64 ------- 29.9 -------10.8 ------- 1.6
Bryant ------- 24 ------- LAL ------- 82 ------- 41.5 ------- 30.0 ------- 2.2

2003-04
Pippen ------- 38 ------- CHI ------- 23 ------- 17.9 ------- 5.9 ------- 0.9
Bryant ------- 25 ------- LAL ------- 65 ------- 37.6 ------- 24.0 ------- 1.7

Look at the age, minutes per game and steals per game and repeat that comment about "not being able to hold Kobe's jockstrap" without smiling.


Pippen is Bitter PEriod!!!!


Dwight Howard> Any center not name Shaq, Hakeem sice the 90's
Yes he is better then Ewing, Alonzo, etc
And one of the best paint defenders of ALL TIME


I could care less of what he has to say. But how he said it made it bitter. As if he could be a 30 ppg today lol plz

Then why does he need Patrick Ewing to coach him? Dwight Howard is terrible, it's just the severe lack of skilled big men and fundamental post play that makes him stand out. Athleticism is no match for skill, ask Larry Bird.


Exactly. So all these guards would shoot 55% plus today? :roll: ''
Hell No!

If anything these guys would average less due to superior athletes and defenders

Athletic superiority doesn't change that much in a decade. As for the superior defenders, look back at what a past-prime Pippen, a guy who "couldn't hold Kobe's jockstrap", did. Imagine what the good defenders in their prime could do!!! /sarcasm


can't have it both ways.

Kobe, Artest are better defenders then pippen & Jordan. Because they actually move there feet when they play defense and still lock down players

Jordan & Pippen could just guard guys without sliding there feet imagine how much drastically worse defenders they would have been with no hand checking?

I doubt Jordan would even land a first team all defense let alone a DPOY

Again, look at the numbers... or watch some old games.


artest is not of of the greatest defenders off all-time? STOP!

How much people buy into propaganda is ridiculous.

You said it was extremely easy for guards to score now a days. Which would make is 10x harder to play defense? So you do the math

How could we be buying into propaganda when we watched the games with our own eyes, yet you are just making assumptions?


Prove me wrong. People claim its ridiculously easy to score now a days and Jordan would average 50ppg. So fill me in. If Kobe & artest can lock down players today what does that say?

Easy. The overall skill of players is lower. Dwight Howard is a prime example; He is the current best centre?!? He has NO post game!


Are you dumb? What does being fast have to do with anything?
Shannon Brown is one of the most athletic players of all time and he cant even guard Fisher. Shane Battie is slow as sh*t but he locks down stars. How does that work?

If it is really as easier to core it is today then 90's KObe & Artest are better defenders then Mj & pippen no question

Well, it's a good thing that THEY'RE ON THE SAME ****ING TEAM!:banghead:
Also, Battier is one of the most intelligent players in the league (which isn't hard at the moment) and his steal numbers aren't close to old ass Pippen, either.


I cant disagree.
Kobe> Jordan when it comes to defense
J

Where's Kobe's DPOY?:confusedshrug:


Not close? Lebron might be better offensively . 10x the passer Jordan ever was. 10x the court vison Jordan had. Gets to the hoop better then Jordan. Finishes around the hoop Better then Jordan. Better 3 point shooter then Jordan

shall i continue?



P.S Get off Jordan d1ck

You never saw Jordan play, did you?

[ginobli2311]

PPS also includes free throws. So it's possible for Lebron to be more statically efficient while not being a good of a scorer. And like I said Jordan's PPS is most likely dragged down due to his Wizards years, when Lebron gets older I'm sure his PPS will drop as well.

that is the exact point. these players are getting to the line more often and more easily based on the rules. this is allowing them to score more points and more efficiently......and because of the rules.....defenders have to lay off more than they want and that allows for more open jumpers. the tight foul calls also leads to the bigs not protecting the rim as well.

again.....these players would have a much harder time getting to the free throw line, the rim, and getting open jumpers off the dribble if you could handcheck and bump on defense like you could in the 90s.

[ginobli2311]

Let's break down the stupidity of DwightHowardMVP's posts in this thread:


This one speaks for itself. Pippen played in the NBA during Kobe's first eight seasons, five of which were in the 'no hand-checking' era, and did fine, especially on defence. I know how you kids like stats:

Season Age Team G MPG PPG SPG
1996-97
Pippen 31 CHI 82 37.7 20.2 1.8
Bryant 18 LAL 71 15.5 7.6 0.7

1997-98
Pippen 32 CHI 44 37.5 19.1 1.8
Bryant 19 LAL 79 26.0 15.4 0.9

1998-99
Pippen 33 HOU 50 40.2 14.5 1.9
Bryant 20 LAL 50 37.9 19.9 1.4

1999-00
Pippen 34 POR 82 33.5 12.5 1.4
Bryant 21 LAL 66 38.2 22.5 1.6

2000-01
Pippen 35 POR 64 33.3 11.3 1.4
Bryant 22 LAL 68 40.9 28.5 1.6

2001-02
Pippen 36 POR 62 32.2 10.6 1.6
Bryant 23 LAL 80 38.3 25.2 1.4

2002-03
Pippen 37 POR 64 29.9 10.8 1.6
Bryant 24 LAL 82 41.5 30.0 2.2

2003-04
Pippen 38 CHI 23 17.9 5.9 0.9
Bryant 25 LAL 65 37.6 24.0 1.7

Look at the age, minutes per game and steals per game and repeat that comment about "not being able to hold Kobe's jockstrap" without smiling.



Then why does he need Patrick Ewing to coach him? Dwight Howard is terrible, it's just the severe lack of skilled big men and fundamental post play that makes him stand out. Athleticism is no match for skill, ask Larry Bird.



Athletic superiority doesn't change that much in a decade. As for the superior defenders, look back at what a past-prime Pippen, a guy who "couldn't hold Kobe's jockstrap", did. Imagine what the good defenders in their prime could do!!! /sarcasm



Again, look at the numbers... or watch some old games.



How could we be buying into propaganda when we watched the games with our own eyes, yet you are just making assumptions?



Easy. The overall skill of players is lower. Dwight Howard is a prime example; He is the current best centre?!? He has NO post game!



Well, it's a good thing that THEY'RE ON THE SAME ****ING TEAM!:banghead:
Also, Battier is one of the most intelligent players in the league (which isn't hard at the moment) and his steal numbers aren't close to old ass Pippen, either.



Where's Kobe's DPOY?:confusedshrug:



You never saw Jordan play, did you?

finally some help....thank you.

[DwightHowardMVP]

Let's break down the stupidity of DwightHowardMVP's posts in this thread:


This one speaks for itself. Pippen played in the NBA during Kobe's first eight seasons, five of which were in the 'no hand-checking' era, and did fine, especially on defence. I know how you kids like stats:

Season Age Team G MPG PPG SPG
1996-97
Pippen 31 CHI 82 37.7 20.2 1.8
Bryant 18 LAL 71 15.5 7.6 0.7

1997-98
Pippen 32 CHI 44 37.5 19.1 1.8
Bryant 19 LAL 79 26.0 15.4 0.9

1998-99
Pippen 33 HOU 50 40.2 14.5 1.9
Bryant 20 LAL 50 37.9 19.9 1.4

1999-00
Pippen 34 POR 82 33.5 12.5 1.4
Bryant 21 LAL 66 38.2 22.5 1.6

2000-01
Pippen 35 POR 64 33.3 11.3 1.4
Bryant 22 LAL 68 40.9 28.5 1.6

2001-02
Pippen 36 POR 62 32.2 10.6 1.6
Bryant 23 LAL 80 38.3 25.2 1.4

2002-03
Pippen 37 POR 64 29.9 10.8 1.6
Bryant 24 LAL 82 41.5 30.0 2.2

2003-04
Pippen 38 CHI 23 17.9 5.9 0.9
Bryant 25 LAL 65 37.6 24.0 1.7

Look at the age, minutes per game and steals per game and repeat that comment about "not being able to hold Kobe's jockstrap" without smiling.



Then why does he need Patrick Ewing to coach him? Dwight Howard is terrible, it's just the severe lack of skilled big men and fundamental post play that makes him stand out. Athleticism is no match for skill, ask Larry Bird.



Athletic superiority doesn't change that much in a decade. As for the superior defenders, look back at what a past-prime Pippen, a guy who "couldn't hold Kobe's jockstrap", did. Imagine what the good defenders in their prime could do!!! /sarcasm



Again, look at the numbers... or watch some old games.



How could we be buying into propaganda when we watched the games with our own eyes, yet you are just making assumptions?



Easy. The overall skill of players is lower. Dwight Howard is a prime example; He is the current best centre?!? He has NO post game!



Well, it's a good thing that THEY'RE ON THE SAME ****ING TEAM!:banghead:
Also, Battier is one of the most intelligent players in the league (which isn't hard at the moment) and his steal numbers aren't close to old ass Pippen, either.



Where's Kobe's DPOY?:confusedshrug:



You never saw Jordan play, did you?



Damn this guy was probbaly working on this since 6 oclock so lemme school him real quick.


1. Dwight Howard is Terrible? I dont care how little skill he has. His athleticism makes up for it and still makes him a great

2. Many people have already stated Jordan could average 40-50 ppg today on 55+ shooting. If the defense was that significantly bad now due to the removal of hand checking. That means players back then had ZERO defense. YOu know how easy it is to get steals when you can put your hand on a guy and just ride him? Kobe & Artest shutdown players today without all that. Can you imagine how good defenders they would be? Substantially better and Jordan would be substantially worse without hand checking.

3. And Yes Pippen couldnt hold his jock strap. 18 year old Kobe was schooling Bulls Pippen. What would a Prime Kobe do to him? :eek: :eek:

4. So Is Lebron also terrible a la Howard because he is all athleticism too?

5. Get of Jordan & Pippen d*ck. Everything goes both ways lol.
You cant say Jordan & pippen would score at will today but there defense would drop even though hand-checking is gone

[ginobli2311]

Damn this guy was probbaly working on this since 6 oclock so lemme school him real quick.


1. Dwight Howard is Terrible? I dont care how little skill he has. His athleticism makes up for it and still makes him a great

2. Many people have already stated Jordan could average 40-50 ppg today on 55+ shooting. If the defense was that significantly bad now due to the removal of hand checking. That means players back then had ZERO defense. YOu know how easy it is to get steals when you can put your hand on a guy and just ride him? Kobe & Artest shutdown players today without all that. Can you imagine how good defenders they would be? Substantially better and Jordan would be substantially worse without hand checking.

3. And Yes Pippen couldnt hold his jock strap. 18 year old Kobe was schooling Bulls Pippen. What would a Prime Kobe do to him? :eek: :eek:

4. So Is Lebron also terrible a la Howard because he is all athleticism too?

5. Get of Jordan & Pippen d*ck. Everything goes both ways lol.
You cant say Jordan & pippen would score at will today but there defense would drop even though hand-checking is gone

howard is a great defensive player. if you consider howard a great player overall....then you need serious help.

pippen/jordan would obviously be less effective on defense with the current rules....but they would still be significantly better than kobe/artest....anyone in the world would tell you this. pippen and jordan are the two best perimeter defenders ever.....and its really not close

if ray allen can slow kobe down this much......then i think its fair to say a prime pippen would dominate that matchup......sorry....ray allen has really done a nice job on kobe and he and pierce did the same thing to a 29 year old kobe in 08....pippen would eat his lunch on defense

nobody honestly think jordan would score 50 a game. but its reasonable to think that he would score 33 points for his career at 53% in today's game.....

[catch24]

My favorite player (Bird) comes from this era, and I've had to stop watching games because the defense was that bad. Like no one ever going 10 feet within guys shooting just because they wanted to get the ball ASAP to start a break. I will gladly upload random regular season games from late 80s and let you see for yourselves.

If you don't mind, sure. A lot of scoring/high ppg then, was more due to teams sharing the ball and choosing to run, thus, getting more shot opportunities. Today, theres no way you'd be able to stop those '85 Lakers if they decided to run and speed up the tempo. I'm pretty sure it was the early 90's that were known to have the most physical and gritty defenses, anyway.

[Yung D-Will]

If you don't mind, sure. A lot of scoring/high ppg then, was more due to teams sharing the ball and choosing to run, thus, getting more shot opportunities. Today, theres no way you'd be able to stop those '85 Lakers if they decided to run and speed up the tempo. I'm pretty sure it was the early 90's that were known to have the most physical and gritty defenses, anyway.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4aDM5d27_w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOq5sH3b72g

[DwightHowardMVP]

howard is a great defensive player. if you consider howard a great player overall....then you need serious help.

pippen/jordan would obviously be less effective on defense with the current rules....but they would still be significantly better than kobe/artest....anyone in the world would tell you this. pippen and jordan are the two best perimeter defenders ever.....and its really not close

if ray allen can slow kobe down this much......then i think its fair to say a prime pippen would dominate that matchup......sorry....ray allen has really done a nice job on kobe and he and pierce did the same thing to a 29 year old kobe in 08....pippen would eat his lunch on defense

nobody honestly think jordan would score 50 a game. but its reasonable to think that he would score 33 points for his career at 53% in today's game.....
\\Dwight Howard is not a great overall player? :roll:

You're stupidity is so amazing. He is a better player today then Pippen ever was.
He puts up more efficient numbers then Prime Shaq lmao.


And if a 18 year old Kobe can school Pippen. Im pretty sure a Prime Kobe would terrorize him

[catch24]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4aDM5d27_w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOq5sH3b72g

:confusedshrug:

[Manute for Ever!]

Damn this guy was probbaly working on this since 6 oclock so lemme school him real quick.


1. Dwight Howard is Terrible? I dont care how little skill he has. His athleticism makes up for it and still makes him a great

If athletecism makes you great then why aren't Team Flight Brothers perennial NBA all-stars? Oh, thats right, they're can't even get in the league.


2. Many people have already stated Jordan could average 40-50 ppg today on 55+ shooting. If the defense was that significantly bad now due to the removal of hand checking. That means players back then had ZERO defense. YOu know how easy it is to get steals when you can put your hand on a guy and just ride him? Kobe & Artest shutdown players today without all that. Can you imagine how good defenders they would be? Substantially better and Jordan would be substantially worse without hand checking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aejHEkZpemA
^^^Go to 1:05 and see what Clyde Drexler thinks.


3. And Yes Pippen couldnt hold his jock strap. 18 year old Kobe was schooling Bulls Pippen. What would a Prime Kobe do to him? :eek: :eek:
Clearly.

Season ------- Age ------- Team ------- G ---- MPG ------- PPG ------- SPG
1996-97
Pippen ------- 31 ------- CHI ------- 82 ------- 37.7 ------- 20.2 ------- 1.8
Bryant ------- 18 ------- LAL ------- 71 ------- 15.5 ------- 7.6 ----- -- 0.7


4. So Is Lebron also terrible a la Howard because he is all athleticism too?
No, Lebron actually has skill to go with the athleticism. You do realise athleticism and skill aren't the same thing, right?


5. Get of Jordan & Pippen d*ck. Everything goes both ways lol.
You cant say Jordan & pippen would score at will today but there defense would drop even though hand-checking is gone
Why not?

[Yung D-Will]

:confusedshrug:

Lol Idk just felt like it was appropriate for this thread.

[DwightHowardMVP]

If athletecism makes you great then why aren't Team Flight Brothers perennial NBA all-stars? Oh, thats right, they're can't even get in the league.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aejHEkZpemA
^^^Go to 1:05 and see what Clyde Drexler thinks.


Clearly.

Season ------- Age ------- Team ------- G ---- MPG ------- PPG ------- SPG
1996-97
Pippen ------- 31 ------- CHI ------- 82 ------- 37.7 ------- 20.2 ------- 1.8
Bryant ------- 18 ------- LAL ------- 71 ------- 15.5 ------- 7.6 ----- -- 0.7


No, Lebron actually has skill to go with the athleticism. You do realise athleticism and skill aren't the same thing, right?


Why not?


1.Why you showing me numbers Kobe barely played and when he did Pippen was hardly on him. And the plays where Pippen guarded him i can show you Kobe schooling him
2. Team flight brothers? Just in case you didnt know theres more to athleticism then jumping high. Dwight Howard has put up numbers more efficient then Prime Shaq. What Kind of numbers do you think he would average playing along side Kobe? 30ppg on 65-70% shooting?
3. Has Shaq EVER put up 20 ppg + on 60% shooting? How bout DPOY? How bout lead league in rebounds? How about first team all defense? Oh wait he never did it. So Shaq must be horrible to lmaoo

[ginobli2311]

1.Why you showing me numbers Kobe barely played and when he did Pippen was hardly on him. And the plays where Pippen guarded him i can show you Kobe schooling him
2. Team flight brothers? Just in case you didnt know theres more to athleticism then jumping high. Dwight Howard has put up numbers more efficient then Prime Shaq. What Kind of numbers do you think he would average playing along side Kobe? 30ppg on 65-70% shooting?
3. Has Shaq EVER put up 20 ppg + on 60% shooting? How bout DPOY? How bout lead league in rebounds? How about first team all defense? Oh wait he never did it. So Shaq must be horrible to lmaoo


twice....when he was 32 and 33.....LOL

dude.....you are showing that you know nothing. trust me man....trying to compare howard to shaq is laughable. please stop.....you are embarrassing yourself.

[DwightHowardMVP]

twice....when he was 32 and 33.....LOL

dude.....you are showing that you know nothing. trust me man....trying to compare howard to shaq is laughable. please stop.....you are embarrassing yourself.


Lol @ you actually googling stats.

Howard is 10x the defender Shaq ever was.

But since you like stats try this.

Go google and see who had the Highest FG% EVER in NBA history in a Play-off series. And i'll be waiting :oldlol:

[ginobli2311]

Lol @ you actually googling stats.

Howard is 10x the defender Shaq ever was.

But since you like stats try this.

Go google and see who had the Highest FG% EVER in NBA history in a Play-off series. And i'll be waiting :oldlol:

lol....i'm not going to debate someone that won't admit that shaq > howard

sorry mate....putting you on my ignore list.

[DwightHowardMVP]

:roll: :roll:
lol....i'm not going to debate someone that won't admit that shaq > howard

sorry mate....putting you on my ignore list.


Damn you lost

Answe is Dwight Howard :oldlol:

But he is just a average offensive player :oldlol:

[Manute for Ever!]

1.Why you showing me numbers Kobe barely played and when he did Pippen was hardly on him. And the plays where Pippen guarded him i can show you Kobe schooling him
2. Team flight brothers? Just in case you didnt know theres more to athleticism then jumping high. Dwight Howard has put up numbers more efficient then Prime Shaq. What Kind of numbers do you think he would average playing along side Kobe? 30ppg on 65-70% shooting?
3. Has Shaq EVER put up 20 ppg + on 60% shooting? How bout DPOY? How bout lead league in rebounds? How about first team all defense? Oh wait he never did it. So Shaq must be horrible to lmaoo

Look, you have already shown that either you're young, new to following the NBA, or not particularly bright (or possibly a combination of all three). I, along with others, have already given a rebuttal to every point you have made. Now you are posting a combination of speculation, half-truths and total bullshit and it is just a complete waste of my time to continue arguing with you.
Feel free to say 'owned', but you will be fooling nobody.

[oh the horror]

Uhmm anybody can score 20 a game on a losing team in the east lmao.

Just ask Danny Granger he put up 30



Danny Granger is 20 something years old....


Show me how many 40 year olds have passed through the league that can do that?


Jordan dropping 40 point games here and there at 39-40 years of age, was incredible. Period.

Against New Jersey droppin 43 at age 40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TkvX356cpQ


Mike droppin' 39pts on the Knicks at 40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJuHwgo61IA



And there are many more. A player still being that effective at 40, is almost UNHEARD of in today's league. And you can take that to the bank.

[DwightHowardMVP]

Danny Granger is 20 something years old....


Show me how many 40 year olds have passed through the league that can do that?


Jordan dropping 40 point games here and there at 39-40 years of age, was incredible. Period.

Against New Jersey droppin 43 at age 40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TkvX356cpQ


Mike droppin' 39pts on the Knicks at 40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJuHwgo61IA



And there are many more. A player still being that effective at 40, is almost UNHEARD of in today's league. And you can take that to the bank.

agree on him being 40 and good.

But you know he wouldnt have even made it to 36 if he never retired both times? His knees would have been dead and body would be tore up. He had a good 5, 6 years of no basketball

[Micku]

Well, I actually thought that more teams played better team defensive after the Bad Boys Pistons. There were a few people that noticed what they did, and they started to do the same thing. Pat Riley adopted it and did it with the Knicks.

After Jordan left the league the first time, the NBA establish a hand-checking rule around the mid 90s. That's when Doc Rivers complained about how they can't touch anybody anymore, and quit. But the NBA changed the rules with hand-checking a lot. I think it was more establish and official in 2004-2005, especially after that Pistons/Pacers brawl. The prior year, in 2004, I think the record defensive teams were the Spurs and Pistons, when the coaches like Larry Brown and Pop mastered how defend without fouling. But there were still a some contact left in the league to guard perimeter players.

I think most of the early 2000s NBA changes were to stop Shaq for dominating and increase scoring, right? There were a lot of rules adjusted in the paint area specifically target to someone like Shaq.

After the 2004-2005, I guess you can say the Celtics establish better team rotations with near perfect help defensive.

I think a lot of respectful coaches do believe that Jordan could average 40 pts with above 50% because you can't touch guards now. Some said it in a partly jokey tone, some said it out of frustration. If you watch prime Jordan, he was pretty quick and was incredible at finishing at the rim. Along with his mid-range shot, he was pretty much a monster to defend, that's why they had to play physical with him and establish more team defensive.

I think with the 80s hand checking rule you could guard a person like LeBron and Wade better since they drive to the basket. But players sometimes get away with hand-checking now. You'll sometimes hear commentators of "letting them play" and that includes hand-checking.

Here is a article that talk about coaches opinions on hand-checking and their adjustment to more team defensive plays: http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/david_aldridge/04/22/aldridge.defenses/index.html

And the history of NBA ruling:
http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html

[oh the horror]

Agreed. Him taking spurts of time off in between definitely helped him a lot....BUT...What this did show is that he exposed the defensive handicaping rules. A 40 year old Mike could average 20+ a game with 4+ reb,4+ ast a game in post 2000 era.

[DwightHowardMVP]

Agreed. Him taking spurts of time off in between definitely helped him a lot....BUT...What this did show is that he exposed the defensive handicaping rules. A 40 year old Mike could average 20+ a game with 4+ reb,4+ ast a game in post 2000 era.


Lets be real. Andre Miller can do that today if given his own team. If Jordan made the play-offs i would give him his credit. But ANY NBA player can put up 25 ppg on a losing team when they take majority of the shots. You think teams are playing you hard when you getting blown out?

Jordan embarrassed himself when he came back. Not being able to get the 8th seed. He was averaging 22 points on 22 shots and you think he exploited something? SMH

[oh the horror]

Wake me up when Andre Miller can do that when he is 40 years old.


Dude has been on some mediocre teams and he cant even do that at his age now.

[DwightHowardMVP]

Wake me up when Andre Miller can do that when he is 40 years old.


Dude has been on some mediocre teams and he cant even do that at his age now.
Yes but he has never been given the green light to jack up 22 shots a game.

But i just find it funny how people thin Jordan was impreesive on the Wizards.

22 points on 22 shots is a horrible game. But to average that for 82 games? SMH

[ginobli2311]

Yes but he has never been given the green light to jack up 22 shots a game.

But i just find it funny how people thin Jordan was impreesive on the Wizards.

22 points on 22 shots is a horrible game. But to average that for 82 games? SMH

i completely disagree. for example....in the current game today....joe johnson scores 21 points on 18 shots. and he's an all-star player in this league.

jordan.....at age 40....scored 20 points on 18.6 shots. what is even more impressive is that his teams were awful around him. opposing defenses only had to worry about mj and hamilton/stackhouse.....they had nothing else.

also....when jordan was healthy (which was rare) he was scoring over 25 points getting 6 boards and 5 assists on over 45% from the field. he played injured a lot in both years as evidenced by the fact that he played 22 games without starting in those 2 years.

sorry....but what jordan was able to do at the age of 39 and 40 is remarkable. just imagine if he had played with another great player to help carry the load a bit.....and he would have been deadly in the playoffs with the extra rest and more meaningful games.....its a shame he didn't have enough to get in.....i would have loved to watch him tear people up in the post season.

a little bit of info. the wizards were 30-30 with michael and 7-15 without him in 02.

[EricForman]

The funny thing is the people on ISH who invoke handchecking the most are the people who diminish Pippen the most. They will sing songs about how every perimeter player under the sun from the 90's would be better now statistically while those from today would be worse in the 90's yet mysteriously you NEVER see them mention the handchecking spiel when Pippen is compared--unfavorably by them--to current players. Pip is the only 90's perimeter player who mysteriously would be worse today, even though he was the best perimeter player of the decade after Jordan. Oh well. The GOAT perimeter defender himself has spoken and taken their side on this so they will cheer his comment even though they will then compare him offensively to people like Odom or Prince when he was in reality a top 10 scorer in the league in his prime without MJ, despite being asked to run the offense (in other words, pass the ball off a lot instead of focusing just on scoring) while anchoring the defense. Remember 95' Pippen? He had to do EVERYTHING for that team before MJ came back in 95'.

someones bitter. every post he spews this stuff and attacks jordan fans, unprovoked. every thread.

dude, go read a book or find some friends, man.

:oldlol:

[32jazz]

someones bitter. every post he spews this stuff and attacks jordan fans, unprovoked. every thread.

dude, go read a book or find some friends, man.

:oldlol:

Look who's talking:rolleyes: MJ's personal internet guardian angel.


Fatal9 has always said MJ is the greatest all around shooting guard ever. What do you losers want from the man?:confusedshrug: Worship him or give him constant messageboard blowjobs like you losers?
Just because he challenges you MJ worshippers who are as about fanatical as those Star Wars or Star Trek nerds he is trying to 'attack' MJ?

When you guys finally realize MJ is just a man the quicker your lives will improve.

MJ hasn't played a relevant game in 13 years. Get over it.

Damn, maybe if MJ had gone OJ & killed one of those White women he was cheating on his wife with this silly deification would have ended:rolleyes:

[Leviathon1121]

Look who's talking:rolleyes: MJ's personal internet guardian angel.


Fatal9 has always said MJ is the greatest all around shooting guard ever. What do you losers want from the man?:confusedshrug: Worship him or give him constant messageboard blowjobs like you losers?
Just because he challenges you MJ worshippers who are as about fanatical as those Star Wars or Star Trek nerds he is trying to 'attack' MJ?

When you guys finally realize MJ is just a man the quicker your lives will improve.

MJ hasn't played a relevant game in 13 years. Get over it.

Damn, maybe if MJ had gone OJ & killed one of those White women he was cheating on his wife with this silly deification would have ended:rolleyes:

He did not quote Fatal9, he quoted Roundball's completely irrelevant post in this thread. Could you possibly be more obsessed with Jordan fans?

Hypocrite and idiot, at least it is amusing.

[Papaya Petee]

That is absolutely dumb talk. Kobe was a prime 35\5\5 player, Wade averaged 30\8\5 in his best year and LeBron averaged 30\8\7 in his best year. Wade and LeBron shot around 50% while Kobe shot 46%. If people think that prime Kobe\ Wade\LeBron would struggle in the 80's or 90's there out of their ****ing mind.

They would be just as dominant as now. LeBron would be in love with the physical defense of the 90's. Once he gets on your side its all over. He would live off of the free throw line. Wade has the combination of the ridicolous drive and finishing around the rim as well as the mid-range. He would be doing the same thing he's doing now. Kobe still has the insane jump-shot and a young Kobe still has nasty athletisism. Come on now guys, do you really think they would turn into 25\5\5 45% players in their prime because someone can put their hands on them for a split second? Hell no.

[Blue&Orange]

People bash stern for softening the league, but he did it because it sells better that way, so how it's his fault? He is giving what people want.

You guys are all about showtime, well for me 150-160 games are boring, what's the point? Give me a 70-60 physical game with great defense.

[ginobli2311]

That is absolutely dumb talk. Kobe was a prime 35\5\5 player, Wade averaged 30\8\5 in his best year and LeBron averaged 30\8\7 in his best year. Wade and LeBron shot around 50% while Kobe shot 46%. If people think that prime Kobe\ Wade\LeBron would struggle in the 80's or 90's there out of their ****ing mind.

They would be just as dominant as now. LeBron would be in love with the physical defense of the 90's. Once he gets on your side its all over. He would live off of the free throw line. Wade has the combination of the ridicolous drive and finishing around the rim as well as the mid-range. He would be doing the same thing he's doing now. Kobe still has the insane jump-shot and a young Kobe still has nasty athletisism. Come on now guys, do you really think they would turn into 25\5\5 45% players in their prime because someone can put their hands on them for a split second? Hell no.

no....i don't think you see a dramatic drop off. but i do think they would average around 2% less from the field and 2 to 3 points less per game if they took the same amount of shots. like i have said all along.....they would still be great....but they would need more shots to get their points.

its kind of absurd to even refute that when wade/lebron actually currently score more points per shot attempt than jordan.....even though he was more efficient from the field and free throw line than both of them.

it becomes even more absurd when you look at the stats i posted in which more than 3 times as many perimeter players averaged over 25 points a game in a season this decade compared to the 90s (and jordan made up more than a third of these). there were great perimeter players in the 90s as well.....it was just harder to score.

[Soothsayer]

I may be the only one who thinks this....But the Hand-checking rule is kinda overrated...

Especially when I see players in the 80's putting up some big numbers, where I say i know for a FACT that Kobe/Wade are much better skilled scorers then some of these players...

IMO, Wade and Kobe are better players and scorers than a Dominique Wilkins...Just sayin, these "rules" wouldn't effect the Superstars in this league in no way...And, teams in the 80's were scoring freely at will....

Plus, watching games, players still get away with an arm bar...And iv'e seen Kobe, LeBron, Wade make a move and get seperation...

And 02' was the best defensive Era then...Zone/And Hand-checkin was allowed.

Hand checking has already been curtailed to a large extent by 2002, and the fact that the nba got rid of the "illegal defense" rules did not make things tougher on perimeter offensive players. Quite the contrary. The NBA got rid of these rules bc they were nigh-impossible to enforce, and to open the court up, once again, making it easier for perimeter offensive players.

Anything you call "handchecking" today is incredibly minor compared to the true armbars and forearms on the perimeter players could get away with in the mid 90s and prior.

[Soothsayer]

Exactly. Since Chris Mullin in the early 90s, Lebron was the first perimeter player this year to average 25+ ppg on 50+%, and he barely did it.

Those type of seasons in the mid 80s to early 90s happened all the time. List of guys who accomplished that feat: Kiki V, Dantley, Aguirre, Dale Ellis, Drexler, Mullin, English, King, MJ, Bird, couple of others came close and I'm sure I am forgetting some names too (stopped happening around mid 90s when help defense improved, overall commitment to defense by teams was greater and also perimeter talent was crap). Purvis Short was putting up 26 ppg on near 50%, and I'm to think Kobe and Wade are going to have problems scoring in this era? Especially with them getting a million semi-transition looks all game long, with horrible help defense (which didn't improve until the Pistons showed how), amongst several other factors.

The era shit is getting out of control.

I wish these guys would actually watch games from their golden era and realize how common 70+ FTA games were, how they softened up "flagrant fouls" at the start of the 90s (due to Pistons), and realize how many touch fouls there were and so on. The most physical era in the NBA was actually the 70s. And rules eliminated REAL, physical handchecking in '79:



In the 80s, I've seen handchecking get called all the time. Commentators pointing out on replays how the guy was not allowed to handcheck etc. SI published an entire feature article in the 80s because NBA defense was perceived as a JOKE. Poor help defense, no zone, less and less physicality, and so on. That's how everybody thought of it at the time. Handchecking was still allowed in the backcourt however to pressure the ball handler, but they eliminated that altogether in '94.

The same BS complaints people have now, people had back then. I saw old timers from the 70s like Norm Van Lier on half time segments making fun of how you couldn't guard Jordan because of all the favorable rules for him (isolation, lack of physicality etc). I'll gladly upload video of couple of them talking about this because I think I saved it somewhere. And the same "handchecking" complaints were going on in '93, in fact here's an NY Times article:



My favorite player (Bird) comes from this era, and I've had to stop watching games because the defense was that bad. Like no one ever going 10 feet within guys shooting just because they wanted to get the ball ASAP to start a break. I will gladly upload random regular season games from late 80s and let you see for yourselves.


I'm sure you are brighter than that. Perimeter players today shoot FAR more 3s on average, lowering their FG%, but not necessarily lowering their EFG%.
Perimeter players' FG% in the 80s was higher, in part, due to the relatively low number of 3s they took.

Damn, what is up with people on this board. Let's use a little common sense.

[Soothsayer]

Too bad handchecking didn't stop Kobe from d*cking you in the 99 and 00 playoffs Scottie:roll:


Kobe "dicked" Pippen in the 00 and 01 playoffs? That would be news to both players.

00, 01 combined, Kobe averaged: 21.8 ppg on 45% shooting. Nice, but hardly "dicking"

[Soothsayer]

I cant disagree.
Kobe> Jordan when it comes to defense
J


No, Kobe is inferior defensively to Jordan. No objective or subjective evidence supports your assertion.

I can sit here and say the sun spins around the earth, but that doesn't make it true.

Educate yourself kid. Jordan was a better defender than Kobe due to better decision making, better athletic ability, and better consistent fundmentals.

Same with Pippen.

[ginobli2311]

No, Kobe is inferior defensively to Jordan. No objective or subjective evidence supports your assertion.

I can sit here and say the sun spins around the earth, but that doesn't make it true.

Educate yourself kid. Jordan was a better defender than Kobe due to better decision making, better athletic ability, and better consistent fundmentals.

Same with Pippen.

and it isn't close. people seem to forget that the reason the bulls were damn near unbeatable was their defense. pippen and jordan were remarkable on the defensive end. the never even had a center that protected the rim well and they still had a dominant defense. kobe's impact on defense is so small compared to those two its laughable

[Soothsayer]

and it isn't close. people seem to forget that the reason the bulls were damn near unbeatable was their defense. pippen and jordan were remarkable on the defensive end. the never even had a center that protected the rim well and they still had a dominant defense. kobe's impact on defense is so small compared to those two its laughable

No doubt. If MJ and Pip had length like Bynum and Gasol patrolling the post for them while they controlled the perimeter...wow...it would have been lights out.

Harper, Jordan, Pippen--best defensive backcourt in history.

[SFMF]

http://bruceblitz.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=nbabasketballmessageboard&thread=59&page=1

go read this thread.

[Soothsayer]

http://bruceblitz.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=nbabasketballmessageboard&thread=59&page=1

go read this thread.

Can't. Apparently you have to join to read it. Why don't you post it here.

[gts]

doc discusses the current game

"When I played, it was just two officials, so that was awhile ago," Rivers said. "And I also thought back then it was more they just called the game, what they saw.

"But it's tough. I think the game is more athletic, the game is faster, and it's brutal. We're hard on them, everybody is hard on them. But it's a difficult game to call," Rivers said.

http://m.espn.go.com/nba/story?storyId=5268744&top

[Soothsayer]

http://m.espn.go.com/nba/story?storyId=5268744&top

Agreed, that the game is slightly more athletic.

It may be brutal, but it is far less so than it used to be.

The game is fast, in large part due to the rule changes Pippen mentioned, which were put in place to open things up and make it easier for athletes to move and "showcase their athleticism" in the league's parlance.

[ReturnofJPR]

Best proof in this thread aside from Pippen's very own mouth:

http://www.game1010.com/video/video/LAgNWA8M3TQ/Michael-Jordan-would-average-50-points-per-game-today-according-to-experts.html

[Micku]

But it's tough. I think the game is more athletic, the game is faster, and it's brutal.

That confuses me. I thought the game was much more faster in the 80s and early 90s.

[DwightHowardMVP]

Agreed, that the game is slightly more athletic.

It may be brutal, but it is far less so than it used to be.

The game is fast, in large part due to the rule changes Pippen mentioned, which were put in place to open things up and make it easier for athletes to move and "showcase their athleticism" in the league's parlance.


Slightly more athletic? From the early 90's to now that athletic gap is just ridiculous.


And yes you can say Jordan & Pippen were better defender. But if with0out hand-checking JORDAN can average 40-50 on 55% shooting and Pippen would be on KB, LBJ< dwade level offensively then Kobe would be a better defender then Jordan Period. Because Kobe has lock down stars without the great hand-checking

[beermonsteroo]

a 39 year old jordan averaged:

23 points 6 boards 5 assists on 42% shooting.

jordan actually averaged 45% at age 40.


Actually Jordan averaged like 25.5 on 43.5 before his knee injury in 2002
Michael after turning 40 averaged 23 on 45%

[gts]

That confuses me. I thought the game was much more faster in the 80s and early 90s.
he's not talking about pace, he's saying todays players on average are faster

[ProfessorMurder]

Scottie's voice always about blows my subwoofer

:roll: I was going to say something along those lines.

[Leviathon1121]

Slightly more athletic? From the early 90's to now that athletic gap is just ridiculous.


And yes you can say Jordan & Pippen were better defender. But if with0out hand-checking JORDAN can average 40-50 on 55% shooting and Pippen would be on KB, LBJ< dwade level offensively then Kobe would be a better defender then Jordan Period. Because Kobe has lock down stars without the great hand-checking

Shaq
Jordan
Pippen
Hakeem
Kemp

Simply off the top of my head, all of them were in their athletic prime from the early 90's to the mid 90's. I would love for you to name me five players from 2000-today that is so significantly more athletic since the gap is so RIDICULOUS.

[ShaqAttack3234]

He puts up more efficient numbers then Prime Shaq lmao.


Prime Shaq wasn't taking only 10-12 shots per game and averaging just 18-21 ppg(which is good, but not prime Shaq level). Shaq was taking 18-21 ppg and averaging 28-30 ppg. Why don't we compare their assist to turnover ratio? Dwight has always averaged atleast 1 more turnover than assist, this year he averaged 1.5 more turnovers than assists, last year, 1.6 more, the year before, 1.9 more and the year before, 2 more.

In 2000, Shaq averaged 3.8 assists compared to 3 turnovers. I like Dwight but he couldn't average 28-30 ppg if his life depended on it.



Dwight Howard has put up numbers more efficient then Prime Shaq. What Kind of numbers do you think he would average playing along side Kobe? 30ppg on 65-70% shooting?

:roll: Please explain why Shaq won a scoring title before he even played with Kobe. Shaq averaged over 23 ppg in his rookie year when he was 4 years younger than Dwight is now. During the 3peat, Shaq averaged more points on a better FG% when Kobe wasn't in the lineup. And Shaq's best season came in 2000 when Kobe was good, but an all-star level swingman, not some superstar franchise player. In fact, in 2000 and 2001, Kobe averaged only about 1 more apg than Shaq, pretty amazing considering Shaq is a center and Kobe is a guard.


3. Has Shaq EVER put up 20 ppg + on 60% shooting? How bout DPOY? How bout lead league in rebounds? How about first team all defense? Oh wait he never did it. So Shaq must be horrible to lmaoo

Shaq was 2nd in DPOY voting in 2000, prime Alonzo Mourning won the award. You're an idiot if you think Dwight would be voted DPOY or 1st team all-defense over Mourning.

Has Dwight ever led the league in scoring? Nope, Shaq did it twice. Has he ever finished top 2? Nope, Shaq did it 6 times. I could go on. Has Dwight averaged 25 ppg? No, but Shaq did it 10 consecutive seasons. Has Dwight averaged 30+ in the playoffs? Shaq did it 3 times, once on 60+% shooting. Even with Shaq's decline years, his scoring averages in the regular season and playoffs are significantly better than Dwight's best years.

Hell, Shaq had an offensive season last season every bit as good, if not better than the offensive season Dwight had this year.

Shaq averaged 17.9 ppg on 60.9% shooting and 59.5% from the line with 1.7 apg and 2.2 turnovers per game.
Dwight averaged 18.3 ppg on 61.2% shooting and 59.2% from the line with 1.8 apg, but 3.3 turnovers per game

Did I mention that Dwight played 5 more mpg? Dwight's career high in points is 45, Shaq had a 45 point game at 37.

Regarding rebounding? Would Dwight lead the league playing in the 90's with Rodman in the league? Here are Dwight's top 3 rebounding seasons when he led the league.

2008- 14.2 rpg
2009- 13.8 rpg
2010- 13.2 rpg

Here are Shaq's top 3

1993- 13.9 rpg
2000- 13.6 rpg
1994- 13.2 rpg

Not much of a difference and Shaq's offensive rebounding numbers were better and offensive rebounds are tougher to get than defensive rebounds. And in his 2000 and 2001 championship runs, Shaq averaged 15.4 rpg each year. Last year, Dwight averaged virtually the same, 15.3 when he made it to the finals.

As far as defense? Go watch some prime Shaq games because you clearly didn't watch him play. He was the most intimidating presence in the paint, his block numbers were better than Dwight's and he was easily a better post defender. Dwight is better at guarding the pick and roll, that's about it.

Dwight and Shaq aren't even close and I know you're trolling because only an idiot would imply Dwight is a better scorer than Shaq. Shaq is the best offensive center since Kareem

[ukplayer4]

can't have it both ways.

Kobe, Artest are better defenders then pippen & Jordan. Because they actually move there feet when they play defense and still lock down players

Jordan & Pippen could just guard guys without sliding there feet imagine how much drastically worse defenders they would have been with no hand checking?

I doubt Jordan would even land a first team all defense let alone a DPOY


:roll: :roll:

this guy needs therapy

[ukplayer4]

18 year old Kobe was schooling Bulls Pippen. What would a Prime Kobe do to him? :eek: :eek:



dude your a ****ing embaressment, stop saying this, you just plucked it out of thin air, i can tell you for a fact that kobe his first three years in the league used to have erratic scoring outburts, he also used to get used and abused at both ends by older swing men. infact in the 98/99 and even 00(despite kobes defensive improvement) playoff teams like houston and portland would actually post whoever kobe was guarding, people like pippen/steve smith/bonzi wells etc used to abuse the hell out of him.

[DwightHowardMVP]

dude your a ****ing embaressment, stop saying this, you just plucked it out of thin air, i can tell you for a fact that kobe his first three years in the league used to have erratic scoring outburts, he also used to get used and abused at both ends by older swing men. infact in the 98/99 and even 00(despite kobes defensive improvement) playoff teams like houston and portland would actually post whoever kobe was guarding, people like pippen/steve smith/bonzi wells etc used to abuse the hell out of him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qucestBWhyQ&feature=related

Just look at :35

At 18 years old he broke pippen ankled and had him looking like larry hughes.

Look at 1:04 steal gets by pippen % Jordan and dunks on MJ with the AND!


Prime Kobe would make Pippen & Jordan look like marginal defenders

[-23-]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qucestBWhyQ&feature=related

Just look at :35

At 18 years old he broke pippen ankled and had him looking like larry hughes.


Prime Kobe would make Pippen look like a kid

Pippen was way past his prime, and yet still led them to a game 7. I doubt your older than the video you just posted.

[Micku]

he's not talking about pace, he's saying todays players on average are faster

Ah. I thought that was strange. Thanks for clearing it up for me!

[jstern]

he's not talking about pace, he's saying todays players on average are faster
He didn't say that, he said that the game runs faster today, then in the 90s when the league was even averaging 91ppg, not because the players are more athletic, but because of the defensive rules.

[jstern]

He didn't say that, he said that the game runs faster today, then in the 90s when the league was even averaging 91ppg, not because the players are more athletic, but because of the defensive rules.
Also let me just say that I think the 80s players were somewhat faster and somewhat jumped higher than players today, but not because they're superior or some bull crap like that, since it's all the same genetics, but because their body type benefited them more in that department. Today's league average are a tad bit shorter than the 80s player (like half an inch), and today's players are 7 pounds heavier. Those 7 pounds is probably the reason why there were more free throw line dunkers back then. In the 90s players bulked up, and the body type has basically been the same since then.