Jerry West's stats in 1969 NBA Final game 7 VS Boston Celtics

[ashbelly]

42 points (14/29) FG, 13 rebounds and 12 assists but they lost 108-106.. He got the Finals MVP even though they lost.. I can see something similar happening this year but the numbers will be a little bit worser and no finals MVP.

[branslowski]

Gasol doesn't need all those asist...And so what if he doesn't win Finals MVP...But I still think LA wins a game 7...

[ashbelly]

Gasol doesn't need all those asist...And so what if he doesn't win Finals MVP...But I still think LA wins a game 7...

I see what u did there. but i was talking about the wan kanobi.

[branslowski]

I see what u did there. but i was talking about the wan kanobi.

My fault, I forgot dude is on your mind 24/7...The trolling thing is cool...Keep it up bro..:cheers:

[Juges8932]

Gasol doesn't need all those asist...And so what if he doesn't win Finals MVP...But I still think LA wins a game 7...

Well said. :applause:

It just needs to be sure that Gasol gets minimum of 22 FGA, he gets the ball and play-makes, and for Kobe to set picks for him so Gasol can use his aggressive/physical effort to get to the rack. Assists are not needed.

[Lakers_Kobe_Fan]

42 points (14/29) FG, 13 rebounds and 12 assists but they lost 108-106.. He got the Finals MVP even though they lost.. I can see something similar happening this year but the numbers will be a little bit worser and no finals MVP.


no morrison doesnt need to get that many rebounds....he just needs to get it going and he will get the MVP...I think he will be ok

[Duncan21formvp]

42 points (14/29) FG, 13 rebounds and 12 assists but they lost 108-106.. He got the Finals MVP even though they lost.. I can see something similar happening this year but the numbers will be a little bit worser and no finals MVP.

Yep. Had Wilt showed up they would have won.

[jlauber]

Yep. Had Wilt showed up they would have won.

Yep....ALWAYS Wilt's fault. How did Wilt do in that game seven BTW? First of all, his counterpart, Bill Russell, scored six points, on 2-7 shooting, with 21 rebounds in 48 minutes. Meanwhile, Wilt, who did not show up, scored 18 points on 7-8 shooting, with 27 rebounds...and, thanks in large part to his COACH, he missed the last five minutes of the game.

[lilgodfather1]

Yep....ALWAYS Wilt's fault. How did Wilt do in that game seven BTW? First of all, his counterpart, Bill Russell, scored six points, on 2-7 shooting, with 21 rebounds in 48 minutes. Meanwhile, Wilt, who did not show up, scored 18 points on 7-8 shooting, with 27 rebounds...and, thanks in large part to his COACH, he missed the last five minutes of the game.
Boy did Wilt ever choke :rolleyes:

[PHILA]

Boy did Wilt ever choke :rolleyes:
This is not to down Jerry West's performance, but you need to watch the full 4th quarter on Youtube. Count how many touches Chamberlain actually received in the pivot. As soon as Russell picked up foul number 5, Chamberlain goes down low next possession attempting to take him out. Had the coach brought him back in to finish the game there is no question they would have won. As I have said before the Celtics may officially have 17 championships, but in reality the Lakers gave one away to them. Literally.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3k9eWPEbXE#t=3m20s

[jlauber]

Of course, no one mentions the play of Elgin Baylor in the post-season that year...

Once again, thanks to Wilt's COACH...Baylor averaged 15.4 ppg on .385 shooting...while Wilt averaged 13.9 ppg (his lowest BY FAR at that point in his career), on .545 shooting.

Despite his coach's incompetence, Chamberlain still outscored, outrebounded, and probably considerably outshot Russell (who shot .423 in the playoffs that year.)

But, as ALWAYS...blame Wilt.

The next year he came back from major knee surgery, WAY AHEAD of even the most optomistic medical opinion, averaged 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and shot .625 in the Finals, and with a huge under-dog team...and outplayed Reed, who was at 23.0 ppg, 10.5 rpg, and shot .483...including his famous 4-3 game in game seven (while all Wilt did was put up a 21-24 game, on 10-16 shooting)...and yes, Reed won the MVP...while Wilt was ripped for not being more dominant.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Yep....ALWAYS Wilt's fault. How did Wilt do in that game seven BTW? First of all, his counterpart, Bill Russell, scored six points, on 2-7 shooting, with 21 rebounds in 48 minutes. Meanwhile, Wilt, who did not show up, scored 18 points on 7-8 shooting, with 27 rebounds...and, thanks in large part to his COACH, he missed the last five minutes of the game.

He averaged 11.7 ppg for the series, come on, yes, his coach deserves some blame, but so does Wilt. He averaged 20+ ppg in the regular season so when you're a superstar, your production drops that much and you lose to a team you were heavily favored against, you deserve a good amount of blame. Not sure what his FG% was in the '69 finals, but considering he shot 36% from the line(24/66) I wouldn't imagine he was that efficient overall even if he did shoot a high percentage from the field. But that means Wilt averaged just 10.7 ppg the first 6 games. Now it's not unreasonable to say if Wilt played up to his usual level or close that there wouldn't have even been a game 7. The Lakers had a chance to close it out in 6, but they lost and Wilt had just 8 points.

By the way, Wilt left the game at 5:19 remaining and Boston was up 103-94, but before Don Nelson's miracle shot with 1:17 left it was a 103-102.

Simply put, the '69 finals are the low point of Wilt's career. It's pretty hard to defend his performance.

[jlauber]

This is not to down Jerry West's performance, but you need to watch the full 4th quarter on Youtube. Count how many touches Chamberlain actually received in the pivot. As soon as Russell picked up foul number 5, Chamberlain goes down low next possession attempting to take him out. Had the coach brought him back in to finish the game there is no question they would have won. As I have said before the Celtics may officially have 17 championships, but in reality the Lakers gave one away to them. Literally.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3k9eWPEbXE#t=3m20s

I have mentioned it many times...but not only should have LA won that series, they were ONE lousy play away from winning the series, 4-1. In game four in Boston, and with the Lakers leading the series, 2-1...LA had the ball, and an 88-87 lead with only a few seconds left. Johnny Egan, the point guard who replaced all-star Archie Clark (one of THREE players traded for Wilt)...lost the ball. Boston imbounded, and Sam Jones banked home a wild shot while falling down as time expired, to win the game 89-88. In game five, back in LA, Wilt crushed Russell on the glass, 31-13, and the Lakers easily won game five, 117-104. Had Egan been able to dribble a few more seconds, and the Lakers would have won convincingly in that series.

[PHILA]

By the way, Wilt left the game at 5:19 remaining and Boston was up 103-94, but before Don Nelson's miracle shot with 1:17 left it was a 103-102.
And they cut a 17 point 4th quarter deficit to 7 before his exit.

[Fatal9]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3k9eWPEbXE#t=3m20s
Seems to me his team was playing better without him, they cut the lead very quickly right after he left the game. Team played better at both ends afterwards and thanks to Jerry they didn't lose a step, why would the coach sub an (injured) Wilt back in?

As for touches, maybe they feared Wilt would choke another game at the foul line (flashback to '68 perhaps)? Boston does seem to be intentionally fouling him if he gets good position. After all, he was a miserable 24/66 (36.4%) from the free throw line in the finals (4/13 in the game 7). Why would you give touches to someone who isn't giving you much scoring wise, and is basically turning over the ball at the FT line, especially when you have Jerry West on your team?

[DwightHowardMVP]

BUT BUT BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He didnt even shoot 50%


What a horrible game

[jlauber]

He averaged 11.7 ppg for the series, come on, yes, his coach deserves some blame, but so does Wilt. He averaged 20+ ppg in the regular season so when you're a superstar, your production drops that much and you lose to a team you were heavily favored against, you deserve a good amount of blame. Not sure what his FG% was in the '69 finals, but considering he shot 36% from the line(24/66) I wouldn't imagine he was that efficient overall even if he did shoot a high percentage from the field. But that means Wilt averaged just 10.7 ppg the first 6 games. Now it's not unreasonable to say if Wilt played up to his usual level or close that there wouldn't have even been a game 7. The Lakers had a chance to close it out in 6, but they lost and Wilt had just 8 points.

By the way, Wilt left the game at 5:19 remaining and Boston was up 103-94, but before Don Nelson's miracle shot with 1:17 left it was a 103-102.

Simply put, the '69 finals are the low point of Wilt's career. It's pretty hard to defend his performance.


BTW, Boston led by 17 points early in the 4th quarter...and it was 103-04 when Wilt left the floor, BUT, there was a foul called before he left, and West hit the two FTs right after play resumed...so a 17 point lead had been cut to SEVEN with still over 5 minutes left.

True, it was not one of Wilt's best post-season performances...but as always, he outplayed his counterpart in every aspect.

In any case, only a complete idiot would have left Wilt on the bench in the last five minutes of that game...and of course, Van Breda Kolf left Wilt's replacement on the floor, Mel Counts, who shot 4-13 from the field, and missed a couple of shots down the stretch.

[jlauber]

Seems to me his team was playing better without him, they cut the lead very quickly right after he left the game. Team played better at both ends afterwards and thanks to Jerry they didn't lose a step, why would the coach sub an (injured) Wilt back in?

As for touches, maybe they feared Wilt would choke another game at the foul line (flashback to '68 perhaps)? Boston does seem to be intentionally fouling him if he gets good position. After all, he was a miserable 24/66 (36.4%) from the free throw line in the finals (4/13 in the game 7). Why would you give touches to someone who isn't giving you much scoring wise, and is basically turning over the ball at the FT line, especially when you have Jerry West on your team?

You are idiotic as Van Breda Kolf. How about game seven of the '65 Finals, when Wilt took a 40-40 team, up against the 62-18 Celtics, and scored the last six points of the game (and eight of the last ten), including 2-2 from the FT line, and a thunderous dunk over Russell with five seconds play...and had cut Boston's lead down from 110-101, to 110-109? Or that the "clutch" Russell then hit a guidewire on his inbounds pass...and only a Havlicek steal saved the game for Boston. All Wilt did in that game was score 30 points, with 32 rebounds, and shoot 12-15 from the floor.

And, yes, he missed 17 FTs in game five of the '66 ECF's...and was labeled a choker. Of course, he had just put up a 46-34 game. I wonder how MJ would have reacted if a member of the media would have labeled him a choker for missing two FTs in his 63 pt. OT loss to the Celtics (as well as the potential winning shot in regulation)?

Oh, and BTW, where were Russell's critics in the '67 ECF's, when in the clinching game five loss, he put up a FOUR point game, on 2-5 shooting? Meanwhile, Chamberlain poured in 22 points in the first half, and finished with 29 (on 10-16 shooting), as well as outrebounding Russell, 36-21, and outassisting him 13-7. Surely, the great Russell could carry HIS team when he was needed, like Wilt had to do virtually his entire career.

[Fatal9]

Wow...West's point total by the game:

G1: 53 pts
G2: 41 pts
G3: 24 pts (LA lost)
G4: 40 pts
G5: 39 pts
G6: 26 pts (LA lost)
G7: 42 pts

What a beast. And who guarded him? Hondo? I've seen a couple of other games ('62 G7), he's got the wettest midrange shot I've ever seen.

Kind of find it funny how the greatest scorer to ever live scored just FOUR more points than his backup center through 6 games :oldlol:

[jlauber]

Wow...West's point total by the game:

G1: 53 pts
G2: 41 pts
G3: 24 pts (LA lost)
G4: 40 pts
G5: 39 pts
G6: 26 pts (LA lost)
G7: 42 pts

What a beast. And who guarded him? Hondo? I've seen a couple of other games ('62 G7), he's got the wettest midrange shot I've ever seen.

Kind of find it funny how the greatest scorer to ever live scored just FOUR more points than his backup center through 6 games :oldlol:

I know that Wilt had 175 rebounds in that series...I wonder how many his backup had? Oh, and BTW, his backup shot .385 from the floor in the playoffs.

[PHILA]

Seems to me his team was playing better without him, they cut the lead very quickly right after he left the game.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4465437&postcount=14


Team played better at both ends afterwards and thanks to Jerry they didn't lose a step, why would the coach sub an (injured) Wilt back in?

Why would you give touches to someone who isn't giving you much scoring wise, and is basically turning over the ball at the FT line, especially when you have Jerry West on your team?

Well the Celtics did force some bad outside shots after Russell initially got a bit excited with Mel Counts guarding him. They could have fed Chamberlain every time down as Bill Russell was clearly sagging off him, in hopes of fouling him out, therefore giving the Lakers a more decisive advantage on the glass with Russell out. The point is that Chamberlain was not given an opportunity to help his team win the championship at the end as noted by Sonny Hill below.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESDFppbQ2zM#t=3m34s



As for touches, maybe they feared Wilt would choke another game at the foul line (flashback to '68 perhaps)?
I know you despise Chamberlain, but this type of fabrication is unwarranted.

[Fatal9]

I know you despise Chamberlain, but this type of fabrication is unwarranted.
How is it fabrication? Flashback to '68 ECF, Celtics vs. Philly. In game 6 Hal Greer had 40 pts, while Wilt shot 8/23 from the FT line (had 20 pts total) in a close game which he blew while getting outplayed by Russell. Then we all know what happened in second half of game 7 where Wilt's play bewildered everyone from fans to his coach to the players.


And, yes, he missed 17 FTs in game five of the '66 ECF's...and was labeled a choker. Of course, he had just put up a 46-34 game. I wonder how MJ would have reacted if a member of the media would have labeled him a choker for missing two FTs in his 63 pt. OT loss to the Celtics (as well as the potential winning shot in regulation)?

Wait, are you really trying to equate Wilt going 8/25 from the line in an elimination game while having HCA to MJ going 19/21 from the line in his 63 pt game against a heavily favored team? What the hell?

[jlauber]

How is it fabrication? Flashback to '68 ECF, Celtics vs. Philly. In game 6 Hal Greer had 40 pts, while Wilt shot 8/23 from the FT line (had 20 pts total) in a close game which he blew while getting outplayed by Russell. Then we all know what happened in second half of game 7 where Wilt's play bewildered everyone from fans to his coach to the players.



Wait, are you really trying to equate Wilt going 8/25 from the line in an elimination game while having HCA to MJ going 19/21 from the line in his 63 pt game against a heavily favored team? What the hell?

Of course you fail to mention Wilt posting a 46-34 game....AGAINST RUSSELL, no less...arguably the greatest defensive center in NBA history. Yes, it was as ridiculous to assume that Wilt's game was any less brilliant.

[PHILA]

How is it fabrication? Flashback to '68 ECF, Celtics vs. Philly. In game 6 Hal Greer had 40 pts, while Wilt shot 8/23 from the FT line (had 20 pts total) in a close game which he blew while getting outplayed by Russell. How can you make the implication that he singlehandedly blew it without having seen the game? They were down 14 points in the 4th quarter until the Sixers made a strong run near the end. We don't know at what point during the game Chamberlain missed those foul shots and we also don't know how they directly impacted the game.

[Fatal9]

Of course you fail to mention Wilt posting a 46-34 game. Yes, it was as ridiculous to assume that Wilt's game was any less brilliant.
Uh, if MJ ever had a 46 pt game where he shot 8/25 (terrible by even Wilt's low standards) from the FT line in a LOSS during an elimination game, he would get absolutely grilled in the media for choking.

[PHILA]

Of course you fail to mention Wilt posting a 46-34 game. Yes, it was as ridiculous to assume that Wilt's game was any less brilliant.

Indeed Chamberlain choked away Game 5 in 1966 for the Sixers (lost by 8 points) with his poor foul shooting, despite his 46/34 game.

Critics at the time were no better either.


Wilt Loses Temper, Feuds With Writer (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=uxgiAAAAIBAJ&sjid=p2UEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7154,3300012&dq)

[guy]

And, yes, he missed 17 FTs in game five of the '66 ECF's...and was labeled a choker. Of course, he had just put up a 46-34 game. I wonder how MJ would have reacted if a member of the media would have labeled him a choker for missing two FTs in his 63 pt. OT loss to the Celtics (as well as the potential winning shot in regulation)?


What??? Jordan hit two free throws at the end of regulation to tie the game and send it to OT. What are you talking about?

[jlauber]

How can you make the implication that he singlehandedly blew it without having seen the game? They were down 14 points in the 4th quarter until the Sixers made a strong run near the end. We don't know at what point during the game Chamberlain missed those foul shots and we also don't know how they directly impacted the game.

It was ALWAYS Wilt's fault Abe...

Of course, before Magic came along...Kareem had at least as equally, if not more "disappointing career."

How come an over-the-hill Thurmond could outplay him in two straight playoff series, including a shocking upset in '73? Or that Kareem "choked" down the stretch, while an aged Chamberlain TOOK OVER the clinching game six of the '72 WCF's? Or that a little white center would outplay Kareem in a game seven, and lead an underdog team to a win over Kareem's Bucks? Or that Kareem couldn't take the Lakers to even a Finals, until MAGIC came along. Or that he was blown away in a sweeping loss to Moses Malone in '83.

Fatal will come up with all kinds of excuses...but, no, not Wilt. It was ALWAYS Wilt's fault...and NEVER Kareem's.

He and ShaqAttack and their anti-Wilt posts. But heaven forbid you point out that O'Neal was involved in SIX post-season sweeping losses, and was ONE SHOT away from seven. How many other great players can make that claim?

[jlauber]

What??? Jordan hit two free throws at the end of regulation to tie the game and send it to OT. What are you talking about?

He MISSED TWO FTs in regulation. Had he even hit ONE, they would have won the game, and then avoided a sweep.

Look Guy, you don't honestly think I am ripping Jordan here, do you? I was merely pointing out, that to criticize Chamberlain for missing FTs, in a game in which he DOMINATED, is just RIDICULOUS. As RIDICULOUS as blaming Jordan for his Bulls loss in that OT game.

My god, how many idiots are on this forum?

[guy]

He MISSED TWO FTs in regulation. Had he even hit ONE, they would have won the game, and then avoided a sweep.

Look Guy, you don't honestly think I am ripping Jordan here, do you? I was merely pointing out, that to criticize Chamberlain for missing FTs, in a game in which he DOMINATED, is just RIDICULOUS. As RIDICULOUS as blaming Jordan for his Bulls loss in that OT game.

My god, how many idiots are on this forum?

So Jordan missing 2 FTs is comparable to Wilt missing 17 FTs? Is that what you're saying? Yet your calling other people idiots?

[jlauber]

Indeed Chamberlain choked away Game 5 in 1966 for the Sixers (lost by 8 points) with his poor foul shooting, despite his 46/34 game.

Critics at the time were no better either.


Wilt Loses Temper, Feuds With Writer (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=uxgiAAAAIBAJ&sjid=p2UEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7154,3300012&dq)


THAT was my exact argument! Can you imagine a member of the media BLAMING MJ for that OT loss? It was essentially the same point.

Where in the hell would have Philly been without Wilt. They were damn near a last-place team when he joined them. Yet, HE gets blamed, after putting up a 46-34 game, for cryingoutloud??????

[jlauber]

So Jordan missing 2 FTs is comparable to Wilt missing 17 FTs? Is that what you're saying? Yet your calling other people idiots?

What is it with you morons anyway...

FORTY-SIX POINTS and THIRTY-FOUR REBOUNDS...against RUSSELL!!!!!

But, of course, guys like Eddie Curry and Greg Ostertag would have killed Russell.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Of course, before Magic came along...Kareem had at least as equally, if not more "disappointing career."

Yet Kareem won a title in '71 with a team far less talented than either of Wilt's championship teams and


How come an over-the-hill Thurmond could outplay him in two straight playoff series, including a shocking upset in '73? Or that Kareem "choked" down the stretch, while an aged Chamberlain TOOK OVER the clinching game six of the '72 WCF's? Or that a little white center would outplay Kareem in a game seven, and lead an underdog team to a win over Kareem's Bucks? Or that Kareem couldn't take the Lakers to even a Finals, until MAGIC came along. Or that he was blown away in a sweeping loss to Moses Malone in '83.

What the hell is your point? Kareem won a title before Magic and had an incredible playoff run to the finals in '74. He didn't need Magic to win a title or make it to the finals. He won before Magic was even in highschool.

And you know what? Magic was the CLEAR sidekick in '80, in fact, Pat Riley didn't tell Magic it was his team until 1986.

And I've heard you spew crap about Kareem winning against an injured Laker team in '71.

Well guess what? Willis Reed was injured for the Knicks in '72, you know, the same team that beat Wilt's Lakers in '70 and '73? If I were to use your horrible logic then I could point out that fact repeatedly whenever you point out the Lakers injuries in '71. Or Oscar's injury in '72.

I bet you have a stained poster of Wilt Chamberlain hanging above your bed. You really take hero worship to a new level, though I think your love of Wilt goes a little beyond just being a fan of his game.....perhaps some of Bill Simmons allegations regarding Wilt weren't as crazy as I initially thought they were.......no wonder you take criticism of his sex life so personally.


He and ShaqAttack and their anti-Wilt posts. But heaven forbid you point out that O'Neal was involved in SIX post-season sweeping losses, and was ONE SHOT away from seven. How many other great players can make that claim?

A loss is a loss and a win is a win. I don't care how he lost, he won 4 championships. Twice as many as Wilt. And one shot away from getting swept a seventh time? :roll: You're really grasping at straws. Shaq was the only Laker who showed up in that series.

[Fatal9]

34 rebounds* :applause:

*in a series with 140+ rebounds per game

Maybe Wilt should have tried his patented unstoppable fadeaways from 15+ feet on his free throw attempts? He had Kevin Garnett range after all right?

[jlauber]

Yet Kareem won a title in '71 with a team far less talented than either of Wilt's championship teams and



What the hell is your point? Kareem won a title before Magic and had an incredible playoff run to the finals in '74. He didn't need Magic to win a title or make it to the finals. He won before Magic was even in highschool.

And you know what? Magic was the CLEAR sidekick in '80, in fact, Pat Riley didn't tell Magic it was his team until 1986.

And I've heard you spew crap about Kareem winning against an injured Laker team in '71.

Well guess what? Willis Reed was injured for the Knicks in '72, you know, the same team that beat Wilt's Lakers in '70 and '73? If I were to use your horrible logic then I could point out that fact repeatedly whenever you point out the Lakers injuries in '71. Or Oscar's injury in '72.

I bet you have a stained poster of Wilt Chamberlain hanging above your bed. You really take hero worship to a new level, though I think your love of Wilt goes a little beyond just being a fan of his game.....perhaps some of Bill Simmons allegations regarding Wilt weren't as crazy as I initially thought they were.......no wonder you take criticism of his sex life so personally.



A loss is a loss and a win is a win. I don't care how he lost, he won 4 championships. Twice as many as Wilt. And one shot away from getting swept a seventh time? :roll: You're really grasping at straws. Shaq was the only Laker who showed up in that series.

Kareem's 71 Bucks NEVER faced a talented team en route to their title. The only team that could have beat them was Wilt's Lakers, who were without West, Baylor, and Erickson.

Wilt's 71-72 Lakers beat Milwaukee EIGHT times in 11 tries (4-1 in the regular season, and 4-2 in the playoffs.) Then they routed the Reedless Knicks and their FIVE HOFers in the Finals.

In '73 Wilt's Lakers lost four close games to Reed's Knicks and their SIX HOFers (and with West playing with two bad knees, and Hairston nowhere near 100%.)

And NO, it was NO COINCIDENCE that when Magic arrived that HE led them to FIVE titles and NINE Finals. Kareem never even got the Lakers to a Finals before Magic. And, Magic led teams to 63-19 and 58-24 withOUT Kareem. PLEASE, Kareem was the side-kick. As great as Kareem played, LA even won the title withOUT him in game six of the '80 Finals. And if Kareem could have stood up against Malone in the '83 Finals the Lakers would have won that series.

Kareem was a very talented side-kick.

As for Shaq...yeah, he could beat up the McCulloughs and Smits in the Finals, but put him up against a HOF center, and his team was swept. And without Kobe beating the Spurs in the WCF's, he would never have even made it to the Finals in those years.

[jlauber]

34 rebounds* :applause:

*in a series with 140+ rebounds per game

Maybe Wilt should have tried his patented unstoppable fadeaways from 15+ feet on his free throw attempts? He had Kevin Garnett range after all right?

Yeah...only 25% of all of the available rebounds...and playing against the second greatest rebounder in NBA history.

[Alhazred]

Where in the hell would have Philly been without Wilt. They were damn near a last-place team when he joined them. Yet, HE gets blamed, after putting up a 46-34 game, for cryingoutloud??????

The 76ers won 55 games their very first season without Wilt in 1969. In fact, they had a better record than the Celtics that year, and that's despite also losing Luke Jackson for most of the season.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHI/1969.html

[Fatal9]

4-1 in the regular season, and 4-2 in the playoffs.

Oscar didn't play in two of the regular season losses (Kareem had 40 pts and 50 pts in those games), the elimination game of the playoffs, and was hurt during the entire series. With a healthy Oscar, I'd guess the very close series swings in favor of the Bucks (who actually outscored the Lakers over the series) and Wilt ends up with just 1 title. You love "what-ifs" right?


The 76ers won 55 games their very first season without Wilt in 1969. In fact, they had a better record than the Celtics that year, and that's despite also losing Luke Jackson for most of the season.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHI/1969.html
When Wilt came on board in '65 after his Warrior team (which was 11-33 at the time) traded him, Philly was 21-20 and didn't seem to improve much record wise after the trade happened either...

[jlauber]

The 76ers won 55 games their very first season without Wilt in 1969. In fact, they had a better record than the Celtics that year, and that's despite also losing Luke Jackson for most of the season.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHI/1969.html

Of course, they DROPPED down from 62 wins and a game seven four point loss in the ECF's, to 55 wins and a first round playoff exit. Meanwhile Wilt led LA to FOUR Finals in his FIVE years there...and in his last season, his former 76er team won NINE games.

Incidently Wilt was TRADED for THREE players, including an all-star guard. Of course, the Jordanites fail to bring up the fact that his Bulls team dropped from 57-25 down to 55-27 the very next season, and basically replacing him with Pete Chilcutt. AND, that team lost a close game seven to the Knicks, who lost a close game seven to the champion Rockets..all withOUT MJ.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Kareem's 71 Bucks NEVER faced a talented team en route to their title. The only team that could have beat them was Wilt's Lakers, who were without West, Baylor, and Erickson.

The Bullets weren't talented? The team that Kareem's Bucks swept? Earl Monroe, Wes Unseld, Gus Johnson(and his ability to touch the top of the backboard, Wilt is the only other NBA player to do that!)....in fact, they had six double digit scorers.


Wilt's 71-72 Lakers beat Milwaukee EIGHT times in 11 tries (4-1 in the regular season, and 4-2 in the playoffs.) Then they routed the Reedless Knicks and their FIVE HOFers in the Finals.

Yet, they beat Milwaukee in a close 6 game series with an injured Oscar Robertson. Remember, this is the logic you use. Pointing out other team's injuries to try to taint a title is asinine, but hopefully now you can see that.


In '73 Wilt's Lakers lost four close games to Reed's Knicks and their SIX HOFers (and with West playing with two bad knees, and Hairston nowhere near 100%.)

See the post above.


And NO, it was NO COINCIDENCE that when Magic arrived that HE led them to FIVE titles and NINE Finals. Kareem never even got the Lakers to a Finals before Magic. And, Magic led teams to 63-19 and 58-24 withOUT Kareem. PLEASE, Kareem was the side-kick. As great as Kareem played, LA even won the title withOUT him in game six of the '80 Finals. And if Kareem could have stood up against Malone in the '83 Finals the Lakers would have won that series.

So let me get this straight....you're claiming Kareem was Magic's sidekick even in 1980? :roll:


As for Shaq...yeah, he could beat up the McCulloughs and Smits in the Finals, but put him up against a HOF center, and his team was swept. And without Kobe beating the Spurs in the WCF's, he would never have even made it to the Finals in those years.

Of course they wouldn't have made the finals without Kobe, LA was a 2-star team who needed their 2 stars to play well(unlike Wilt's stacked championship teams). Yet Shaq was the 1st option on those teams.

And Dikembe Mutombo is a HOF-caliber defender and he may very well make the HOF on the strength of his defense and we all saw what happened when Shaq faced him in the finals.

And a 3rd year Shaq played very well individually vs Olajuwon at his absolute peak in the '95 finals.

[jlauber]

Oscar didn't play in two of the regular season losses (Kareem had 40 pts and 50 pts in those games), the elimination game of the playoffs, and was hurt during the entire series. With a healthy Oscar, I'd guess the series swings in favor of the Bucks (who actually outscored the Lakers over the series) and Wilt ends up with just 1 title. You love "what-ifs" right?


When Wilt came on board in '64 after his Warrior team (which was 11-33 at the time), Philly was 21-20 and didn't seem to improve much record wise after the trade happened either...

You talk about EMPTY stats. Kareem's 50 point game came in a BLOWOUT loss, 123-107, and in which he was outrebounded by Chamberlain, 25-8.

And, how about that 21-20 Philly team, (which had been 34-46 the year before)..how did they fare in the post-season??? They lost a game seven, by ONE point, to the 62-18 Celtics, in a series in which Wilt averaged a 30-30.

[jlauber]

Of course, Shaq's 96-97 playoff series against Ostertag was a monumental one as well. 22 ppg, 11 rpg, and 49% from the floor.

Between that, and his career domination of Eddie Curry...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=curryed01

Outscoring Curry, 15.5 to 12.8 ppg, (although Curry did outshoot him, .533 to .529), and outrebounding him by a staggering 6.9 to 5.0 margin...in 13 H2H games.

I wonder how a PRIME Chamberlain would have fared against those two TITANS?

[che guevara]

Of course, Shaq's 96-97 playoff series against Ostertag was a monumental one as well. 22 ppg, 11 rpg, and 49% from the floor.

Between that, and his career domination of Eddie Curry...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=curryed01

Outscoring Curry, 15.5 to 12.8 ppg, (although Curry did outshoot him, .533 to .529), and outrebounding him by a staggering 6.9 to 5.0 margin...in 13 H2H games.

I wonder how a PRIME Chamberlain would have fared against those two TITANS?
Why do you keep bringing up this irrelevant nonsense?

[jlauber]

Why do you keep bringing up this irrelevant nonsense?

Why do you keep reading it?

[Fatal9]

Of course, Shaq's 96-97 playoff series against Ostertag was a monumental one as well. 22 ppg, 11 rpg, and 49% from the floor.

Between that, and his career domination of Eddie Curry...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=curryed01

Outscoring Curry, 15.5 to 12.8 ppg, (although Curry did outshoot him, .533 to .529), and outrebounding him by a staggering 6.9 to 5.0 margin...in 13 H2H games.

I wonder how a PRIME Chamberlain would have fared against those two TITANS?
This guy :roll:

[jlauber]

Why do you keep bringing up this irrelevant nonsense?


I'll tell you...because we have a couple of posters here with a clear agenda to diminish Chamberlain at every turn.

They come up with a flaw like Chamberlain putting up a 46-34 game against Russell, arguably the greatest defensive center in NBA history, but because he missed 17 FTs, HE cost his team the game.

If they are going to go those lengths...well, of course I'll point out the numerous failures of Kareem and Shaq.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Of course, Shaq's 96-97 playoff series against Ostertag was a monumental one as well. 22 ppg, 11 rpg, and 49% from the floor.

Between that, and his career domination of Eddie Curry...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=curryed01

Outscoring Curry, 15.5 to 12.8 ppg, (although Curry did outshoot him, .533 to .529), and outrebounding him by a staggering 6.9 to 5.0 margin...in 13 H2H games.

I wonder how a PRIME Chamberlain would have fared against those two TITANS?

Yeah and we've been over this a million times. The next year, Shaq averaged 32 ppg on 56% shooting vs Ostertag.

You failt to mention some key details vs Curry. He averaged less than 27 mpg vs Curry. Why was this? Hmmm, well in the second game, it was Shaq's FIRST game of the season coming off surgery, in fact, he came off the bench and played just 21 minutes.

In the 4th game, Shaq left early with an injury, he played only 25 minutes

In the 6th game, Shaq again only played 30 minutes, but this time due to a 24 blowout win and he had a solid game.

In the 7th game he had 26/10/6/7 in just 32 minutes

In the 8th game, he left with an injury after 2 minutes and never returned.

In the 9th game, another 20 point blowout win and Shaq played just 22 minutes

So in the majority of those games, Shaq was either affected by an injury or it was a blowout....yet you fail to mention that or the fact that he played less than 27 mpg. But I'm sure you'll ignore these facts...again.

It just shows your agenda....and by the way, here's an interesting quote about Wilt's offensive game.

"What the duel proved, chiefly, is that against Russell, Chamberlain cannot get away with the few simple offensive moves he has found so effective against lesser men." Jerry Tax, Sports Illustrated.

It's NOT normal for a 55 year old to take criticism of an athlete this personally. You go across the internet even spamming golf and MLB forums with your crap....

Get help! I know it must hurt that you and Wilt can never be together, but you have it to get over it.

[Alhazred]

Of course, they DROPPED down from 62 wins and a game seven four point loss in the ECF's, to 55 wins and a first round playoff exit. Meanwhile Wilt led LA to FOUR Finals in his FIVE years there...and in his last season, his former 76er team won NINE games.

They were also missing Luke Jackson for the first round. As for Wilt taking the Lakers to multiple Finals, well, how exactly was that different from what they were doing without him? Before getting Wilt, they had made the Finals 3 out of the four previous seasons and took the Celtics to six games, WITHOUT Wilt. Obviously he was a great help to them when they won the championship, but they were still a great team without him.

As for your last point, their record from 1973 is irrelevant, it wasn't even the same lineup from 69. That's like me citing the 03 Bulls record as proof that they were nothing without Jordan.


Incidently Wilt was TRADED for THREE players, including an all-star guard.

That all-star guard averaged a decent but hardly astounding 13/4/3 with the 76ers in 1969. The other two players were Jerry Chambers(who didn't even play for them) and Darrell Imhoff. How was that enough to win 55 games despite losing Wilt but also their second best big man, Luke Jackson?


Of course, the Jordanites fail to bring up the fact that his Bulls team dropped from 57-25 down to 55-27 the very next season, and basically replacing him with Pete Chilcutt. AND, that team lost a close game seven to the Knicks, who lost a close game seven to the champion Rockets..all withOUT MJ.

Of course, you forget to mention that the team had also acquired Steve Kerr, Toni Kukoc, Luc Longley and Bill Wennington. I also wonder how that team would have done had Horace Grant gone down after 25 games and missed the playoffs like Luke Jackson did. My guess is, they probably would have struggled to make it to the second round, if that.

[jlauber]

It just shows your agenda....and by the way, here's an interesting quote about Wilt's offensive game.

"What the duel proved, chiefly, is that against Russell, Chamberlain cannot get away with the few simple offensive moves he has found so effective against lesser men." Jerry Tax, Sports Illustrated.


LOL!

That quote was after Wilt and Russell's very FIRST meeting, on 11/17/59. In their very NEXT game, eight days later, Chamberlain put up a 45-35 game, to Russell's 15-13.

And, yes, you can show me all of Shaq's dominating games. Kareem's too. I KNOW they were great. But, if clowns like you and Fatal are going to find flaws in Chamberlain's DOMINANCE of the sport (like NO ONE ELSE in ANY other professional team sport)...then I will continue to bring up the failures of Shaq and Kareem.

Regarding Wilt's "failure" with his 46-34 game in a clinching game five loss..

I could post Shaq's pathetic game against the Pistons in the clinching game five loss (7-13, 6-16 from the line, 20 pts, and 8 rebounds), of the '04 Finals...

BUT, instead I will post his game FOUR, in which he went 16-21 from the floor, only 4-11 from the line, for 38 points, to go along with his 20 rebounds. His team LOST that game, and by eight points.

CLEARLY, using your argument about Wilt's "failure" with his 46-34 game against Russell in a clnching game five loss...

if Shaq had only done more in that game four, the Lakers could have won it. Obviously, his poor FT shooting contributed heavily to that defeat, as well.

THAT is what Wilt had to endure his ENTIRE career. No matter what he did, it was never enough. It was ALWAYS HIS fault when they lost. And when they won, well, first of all, look at the talent he had around him (even though he was outgunned by HOFers in EVERY post-seaosn), AND, secondly, he SHOULD have won...he was the most dominating player of all-time.

THAT was Wilt's burden...

[ShaqAttack3234]

Regarding Wilt's "failure" with his 46-34 game in a clinching game five loss..

First of all, that's not one of the things I consider a failure as far as Wilt. Though his play in the first 4 games(23 ppg on 48% shooting) does deserve a lot of criticism. Had he played better, closer to his usual level then they wouldn't have been in a hole to begin with. Just like in 2008, Lebron had a 40+ point game 7, but he was so bad in the first 6 games that it's hard to give him credit for it.


I could post Shaq's pathetic game against the Pistons in the clinching game five loss (7-13, 6-16 from the line, 20 pts, and 8 rebounds), of the '04 Finals...

Yeah and like the '66 Sixers, they were already in an almost impossible 3-1 hole. But was this Shaq's fault? He averaged 28.3 ppg and 11.5 rpg on 64.8% shooting through the first 4 games.


BUT, instead I will post his game FOUR, in which he went 16-21 from the floor, only 4-11 from the line, for 38 points, to go along with his 20 rebounds. His team LOST that game, and by eight points.

CLEARLY, using your argument about Wilt's "failure" with his 46-34 game against Russell in a clnching game five loss...

if Shaq had only done more in that game four, the Lakers could have won it. Obviously, his poor FT shooting contributed heavily to that defeat, as well.

Once again, I never called Wilt's 46/34 game a failure, I pointed to the 4 games before that to put them in a 3-1 hole. Even with the 17 misses from the line, I have to give him credit for having a monster game, BUT, when you lose and you give away that many possessions, you have to atleast mention it.

And lets be honest, missing 17 free throws is hardly like missing 7, particularly since, several of Shaq's came on and 1s, iirc, which doesn't waste a possession. But for arguments sake, lets say 6 of Shaq's misses were on 2 shot attempts. That's like missing 3 field goal attempts. If he was 16/24 and 4/5 from the line instead...would anyone complain?

Shaq was unstoppable in the 4th when he got the ball, going 5 for 6 with 13 points, unfortunately be barely got the ball and the game slipped away. Kobe shot basically nothing, but long, contested jumpers all night while Shaq was making a variety of moves and finishing with numerous power dunks, turnarounds and jump hooks.

But a 36/20 game in an 88-80 game is unbelievable, particularly vs arguably the greatest defensive team of all time.

In that series, Shaq really needed more touches and you can't fault Shaq for not calling for them because I vividly remember Shaq requesting more touches throughout the playoffs and taking a like from Keyshawn Johnson by saying "Give me the damn ball".

Shaq literally had no help that series other than game 2. Kobe was simply embarrassing outside of that game, Payton played like a D-League scrub(4 ppg on 32% shooting), Malone was injured and basically couldn't move(5 ppg on 33% shooting).

And finals MVP, Chauncey Billups lit up Payton for an efficient 20 plus ppg, WELL above his season averages in ppg and shooting %, Rip Hamilton also topped his season averages while Kobe played some of the worst basketball of his career. It's really hard to blame Shaq considering how little help he got in the finals.

As far as Shaq's real postseason failures, I'd point to 1994, 1997 and 1999, though he wis team wasn't heavily favored in any series and they only had homecourt in one, a player of Shaq's caliber should have played better, though I'll cut him slack for 1994 considering it was his first playoff series.

[guy]

What is it with you morons anyway...

FORTY-SIX POINTS and THIRTY-FOUR REBOUNDS...against RUSSELL!!!!!

But, of course, guys like Eddie Curry and Greg Ostertag would have killed Russell.

Please tell me how Jordan missing 2 free throws is even remotely comparable to Wilt missing 17 free throws.

The fact is you are completely hiding behind Wilt's stats. He deserves a ton of criticism for missing 17 FTs. Anyone would. I don't care if Kobe scores 65 points tonight. If he misses 17 FTs at the same time and they lose, that will go down as one of the biggest chokes ever and rightfully so. Fact is its highly unlikely to shoot 17 FTAs in a game. Its even more unlikely to MAKE 17 FTs in a game. Whats even MORE unlikely then that is to MISS 17 FTs in a game, which is why it goes down as choking.

[PHILA]

Though his play in the first 4 games(23 ppg on 48% shooting) does deserve a lot of criticism. Had he played better, closer to his usual level then they wouldn't have been in a hole to begin with. Just like in 2008, Lebron had a 40+ point game 7, but he was so bad in the first 6 games that it's hard to give him credit for it.
Sixers lost the first two games by 21 and 19 points (rest of the team shot less than 40%), gave up a 24 point lead in a narrow victory the third game (Chamberlain and Greer held them off at the end), and gave up a 13 point lead to lose the 4th game. This cannot be put on Chamberlain's shoulders alone. Irv Kosloff arrogantly predicted a Sixers sweep prior to the series. Admittedly Chamberlain's unprofessional behavior did not help this cause as "easy going" Coach Schayes would cater to his preferences, such as rescheduling practice for his convenience or even excusing him.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain

'In the 1966 NBA Playoffs, the Sixers met their familiar foes, the Celtics, and for the first time even had home court advantage. However, Boston easily won the first two games on the road, winning 115–96 and 114–93; Chamberlain played within his usual range, but his supporting cast shot under 40%. This caused sports journalist Joe McGinnis to comment: "The Celtics played like champions and the Sixers just played." In Game 3, Chamberlain scored 31 points and 27 rebounds for an important road win, and the next day, coach Schayes planned to hold a joint team practice. However, Chamberlain said he was "too tired" to attend, and even refused Schayes' plea to at least show up and shoot a few foul shots with the team. In Game 4, Boston won 114–108. Prior to Game 5, Chamberlain was nowhere to be found, skipping practice and being non-accessible. Outwardly, Schayes defended his star center as "excused from practice", but his team mates knew the truth and were much less forgiving. In Game 5 itself, Chamberlain was superb, scoring 46 points and 34 rebounds, but the Celtics won the game 120–112 and the series. Cherry is highly critical of Chamberlain: while conceding he was the only Sixers player who performed in the series, he points out his unprofessional, egotistical behavior and being a bad example for his team mates.


Prior to the 1966-67 NBA Season, the friendly but unassertive Dolph Schayes was replaced by a familiar face, the crafty but firm Alex Hannum. In what Cherry calls a tumultuous locker room meeting, Hannum addressed several key issues he observed during the last season, several of them putting Chamberlain in an unfavorable light. Sixers forward Chet Walker testified that on several occasions, players had to pull Chamberlain and Hannum apart to prevent a fistfight. Fellow forward Billy Cunningham observed that "Hannum showed who was the boss" and "never backed down", and by doing this, won Chamberlain's respect.'

[PHILA]

"A successful coach is one who gets the most out of his men. Schayes lost the respect of his players. We had the best club in the NBA, but the Celtics beat us in the playoffs because we weren't even a basketball team."

-Wilt Chamberlain

[chopchop20]

Jerry West is without a doubt the best white player in NBA history... sorry Bird

[jlauber]

Jerry West is without a doubt the best white player in NBA history... sorry Bird

Asside from MJ, West was probably the greatest post-season scorer in NBA history.

Inicdently West holds the single playoff series scoring record of 46.3 ppg against the Bullets in '65.

[chopchop20]

Asside from MJ, West was probably the greatest post-season scorer in NBA history.

Inicdently West holds the single playoff series scoring record of 46.3 ppg against the Bullets in '65.

Dude was a beast... 2nd highest scoring average in the playoffs behind MJ. And they didn't even have the 3 point shot for a while back then. He's put up some of the most amazing numbers for anyone NOT named MJ

[alexandreben]

Dude was a beast... 2nd highest scoring average in the playoffs behind MJ. And they didn't even have the 3 point shot for a while back then. He's put up some of the most amazing numbers for anyone NOT named MJ
West is the highest scorer in the NBA Finals.