Are there still people out there that think Kobe isn't top 10 all time?

[1987_Lakers]

if so....LOL:lol

You can make an argument Kobe has surpassed Hakeem in the all-time list.

[PowerGlove]

You are saying this after he put up that vomit inducing performance?

And dont give me the rebounding bullshit because Lebron did the same exact thing and everyone said that was the worst 30/20/10 game they have ever seen.:lol

[NY-Knicks]

You are saying this after he put up that vomit inducing performance?

And dont give me the rebounding bullshit because Lebron did the same exact thing and everyone said that was the worst 30/20/10 game they have ever seen.:lol


the close out game against the C's?

[alexandreben]

if so....LOL:lol

You can make an argument Kobe has surpassed Hakeem in the all-time list.
Did you watch the game??

The referees saved Lakers' ass and Kobe shot 25% and his team mates bailed him out.

[mattevans11]

maybe he is... maybe he isnt

but he is in the 8-12 range..... but he already was in that range before this ring

[Anaximandro1]

You can make an argument Kobe has surpassed Hakeem in the all-time list.

:lol :lol

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

for me, he is borderline top-10

[DwightHowardMVP]

Haters is mad. Kobe shot ugly. But gave the Lakers the win in 4th quarter with 5 straight points:lol

[1987_Lakers]

You are saying this after he put up that vomit inducing performance?


Let's ignore the fact that Kobe played great defense, grabbed 15 rebounds, & was the best player throughout the series.:lol

[zORi]

Duncan, Wilt, and Magic have ALL had bad games during elimination games. Does that hurt their legacies?

Seriously guys, why do people seem to lose all kinds of sense when it comes to Kobe?

[Desperado]

:lol :lol

:lol :lol

5>2

[Micku]

I think Kobe is top 10. I think the Celts played him the best, however he did take some horrible shots when he should've passed it. He shot, a shockingly, 25% from the field.

Kobe is great, but I don't think he has any dominating NBA Finals in comparison to other greats. It doesn't matter though, since they won the game. It would be a problem later on though.

[JM720]

Wilbon :roll:

Said top 20, then started naming 10 people better then Kobe and then stopped after saying like 5 or 6 names :oldlol:

[clayton]

Lots of pissed off posters tonite. :cheers:

[LBJMVP]

Haters is mad. Kobe shot ugly. But gave the Lakers the win in 4th quarter with 5 straight points:lol

hater were mad when lebron shot ugly but played great defense holding pierce to 13 again while grabbing alot of rebounds and assist.

im not knocking kobe but im just trying to show the bias.

[jstern]

Depends on how the person ranks a player. If it's just about rings then people will rank him high, but in terms of comparing him to other top ten guys. Look at it this way, guys like Jordan took over when they had to, Kobe kind of, pretty much had his teammates bailing him out. I'm not trying to hate on the guy, just putting things in perspective, how others are going to view it.

[PowerGlove]

Let's ignore the fact that Lebron played great defense, grabbed 19 rebounds, & was the best player throughout the series.:lol

.....

[AK47DR91]

Kobe is #3 in my lifetime, and I started watching NBA around 1991-92.

#1...Jordan, obviously the GOAT.
#2...Tim Duncan...greatest PF ever.
#3...Kobe...greatest perimeter scorer ever. if not, one of the greatest.

I'm not going to compare these three guys to Magic, Bird, Wilt, Russell or Kareem's highlights and stats. Wish I could have seen them play live in person or on TV, that's the only way I'll really compare them.

[1987_Lakers]

.....

LeBron's team lost. Nuff said.

[KenneBell]

It's hard to find 10-11 other players that can top his resume. The only person he arguably passed tonight was Hakeem though.

He's #9 on my list.

Another 4 years or so and he'll probably make it past Duncan and Shaq because of longevity.

[RazorBaLade]

You are saying this after he put up that vomit inducing performance?

And dont give me the rebounding bullshit because Lebron did the same exact thing and everyone said that was the worst 30/20/10 game they have ever seen.:lol

Kobe won
Kobe wasn't running from halfcourt to rebound off missed free throws
Kobe was aggressive the whole game
Kobe didn't almost have a quad double game with turnovers

Lebron did the opposite, so of course he's gonna get crapped on. Kobe was t10 before this game and he's t10 after.

[rs98762001]

Of course he's top 10 now. He's in the Duncan/Shaq/Hakeem bracket. The fact he had a lousy game 7 doesn't change that. Nobody will remember it in 20 years. Same as no one remembers MJ's lousy close out performance against the Sonics. Ultimately Bryant just won his 2nd Finals MVP and his 5th ring. That puts him in extremely select company.

[LBJMVP]

Kobe won
Kobe wasn't running from halfcourt to rebound off missed free throws
Kobe was aggressive the whole game
Kobe didn't almost have a quad double game with turnovers

Lebron did the opposite, so of course he's gonna get crapped on. Kobe was t10 before this game and he's t10 after.

so running to get missed free throw rebounds isnt agressive. kobe had a 7 turnover without the assist and rebounds so give it break.

[zORi]

Of course he's top 10 now. He's in the Duncan/Shaq/Hakeem bracket. The fact he had a lousy game 7 doesn't change that. Nobody will remember it in 20 years. Same as no one remembers MJ's lousy close out performance against the Sonics. Ultimately Bryant just won his 2nd Finals MVP and his 5th ring. That puts him in extremely select company.

I had forgot all about that!!

Didn't he have like two bad games against them?

[RazorBaLade]

so running to get missed free throw rebounds isnt agressive. kobe had a 7 turnover without the assist and rebounds so give it break.

no its not being aggressive its being a stat whoring *****, u be aggressive on the offensive end and when u rip rebounds away from people like garnett, pierce and rondo. But at the end of the day nothing matters, the difference is that kobe won and lebron didn't. We won't know where to place lebron until he wins, because like kobes 06 year where he was freaking mind blowing he didnt win and barely moved up all time list but he went from like t15 to t10 after 09.

[MAC system]

Kobe passed Hakeem on my list and is #9 overall. He'll probably end up in the 8 spot when it's all said and done.

I start a team I'm still taking Hakeem 10/10 over Kobe thoujgh, it's just hard to ignore Kobe's winning.

[mattevans11]

is nobody going to mention that Kobe has not won a ring without the best offensive big man in the game at the time the lakers won the 'ship.....

what does it matter if he is 8,9,10,11...... that is elite already.....

im actually quite impressed that kobe turned it on this playoffs, after i thought he was on his last leg during the regular season. same with fisher.....


kobe is the second best player in the league right now and at least top 12 overall...... give him his props....

he played a crappy game.... but knocked down some shots at the end of the game..... but he was the only laker to consistantly show up this series and you cant take that away from him.

[PowerGlove]

LeBron's team lost. Nuff said.
Team.Nuff said.

[mattevans11]

no its not being aggressive its being a stat whoring *****, u be aggressive on the offensive end and when u rip rebounds away from people like garnett, pierce and rondo. But at the end of the day nothing matters, the difference is that kobe won and lebron didn't. We won't know where to place lebron until he wins, because like kobes 06 year where he was freaking mind blowing he didnt win and barely moved up all time list but he went from like t15 to t10 after 09.


he tips the ball with one hand for most his rebounds... teach that boy how to grab a ball with two hands....

[LBJMVP]

no its not being aggressive its being a stat whoring *****, u be aggressive on the offensive end and when u rip rebounds away from people like garnett, pierce and rondo. But at the end of the day nothing matters, the difference is that kobe won and lebron didn't. We won't know where to place lebron until he wins, because like kobes 06 year where he was freaking mind blowing he didnt win and barely moved up all time list but he went from like t15 to t10 after 09.

so your no longer aloud to try and get rebound with it meaning your a stat whore...

kobe sagging off rondo and grabbing rebounds with ease it less agressive

i dont think getting rebounds in any case is stat whoring considering your suppose to get rebounds!!!!

lebron did rip down rebounds, are you just making stuff up.

[PHILA]

for me, he is borderline top-10

Indeed. However to me he passed Hakeem some years ago.

[zORi]

is nobody going to mention that Kobe has not won a ring without the best offensive big man in the game at the time the lakers won the 'ship.....

what does it matter if he is 8,9,10,11...... that is elite already.....

im actually quite impressed that kobe turned it on this playoffs, after i thought he was on his last leg during the regular season. same with fisher.....


kobe is the second best player in the league right now and at least top 12 overall...... give him his props....

he played a crappy game.... but knocked down some shots at the end of the game..... but he was the only laker to consistantly show up this series and you cant take that away from him.

Probably like how no one is going to mention how MJ was being eliminated in the first round until he got one of the best Perimeter Defenders on his team.

Or how Shaq only won rings when he had a Top 3 (at the time) player on his team (and didn't make it to the Finals with the, arguably, #1 player on his team).

[chazzy]

People will try to use this game 7 to overshadow the accomplishment of winning another title/FMVP. Which is sad. It's almost like he dropped a couple spots on people's lists reading some of the posts tonight :oldlol:

[LBJMVP]

Probably like how no one is going to mention how MJ was being eliminated in the first round until he got one of the best Perimeter Defenders on his team.

Or how Shaq only won rings when he had a Top 3 (at the time) player on his team (and didn't make it to the Finals with the, arguably, #1 player on his team).

lebron has none somthing none of them have!!!

he has gotten past the first round every year with no player playing anything close to HOF level. :rockon:


im sorry i keep posting lebron stuff... i just really hate kobe and it makes me feel better when i vent my feelings :cry:

[1987_Lakers]

is nobody going to mention that Kobe has not won a ring without the best offensive big man in the game at the time the lakers won the 'ship.....

Just like nobody mentions MJ did not win a ring without the best perimeter defender of all time / the best SF in the game.

[Soothsayer]

Just like nobody mentions MJ did not win a ring without the best perimeter defender of all time / the best SF in the game.


Probably because Pippen entered the league just a couple years after MJ, and Jordan played his entire prime with Pippen.

[mattevans11]

Probably like how no one is going to mention how MJ was being eliminated in the first round until he got one of the best Perimeter Defenders on his team.

Or how Shaq only won rings when he had a Top 3 (at the time) player on his team (and didn't make it to the Finals with the, arguably, #1 player on his team).


good examples..... but failing to address the thread, because the thread is basically about if he passed hakeem.

but shaq not making the finals this year is not fair, because if he did win a 'ship he would have gotten limited credit..... im not buying this one.

MJ and pippen is a stretch for this argument.... they both came into their primes together....

anyway... did hakeem ever have a top 10 player in the league (at the time) next to him?

[Micku]

Or how Shaq only won rings when he had a Top 3 (at the time) player on his team (and didn't make it to the Finals with the, arguably, #1 player on his team).

Hm?

Y'mean Kobe?

Back then Duncan, T-Mac, AI, KG, Chris Webber, Vince Carter and Kidd were consider better to a period. It shrunk as the years past, but I don't think Kobe was consider top 3 player. Maybe top 5 or something by 2002.

[zORi]

Hm?

Y'mean Kobe?

Back then Duncan, T-Mac, AI, KG, Chris Webber, Vince Carter and Kidd were consider better to a period. It shrunk as the years past, but I don't think Kobe was consider top 3 player. Maybe top 5 or something by 2002.

I actually left out perimeter.

You could make a case for Kidd and T-Mac, but I think he was ahead of AI and Carter in the waning years.

[jlauber]

Kobe is easily top-10...but he is not MJ...

why can't people just give Kobe the credit he is due, without trying to diminish him with comparisons to MJ?

AND, his career is not over. Barring injury, he will have 4-5 more seasons left. He has already played in 14 seasons, and will be close to 20 by the time he hangs it up.

How can ANYONE argue with that?????

[gxL]

kobe was top 10 after the 2008-2009 season, winning another ring outweighs his poor shooting performance in game 7. in fact he played great defense and rebounds, which shows heart to win a championship.

[zORi]

good examples..... but failing to address the thread, because the thread is basically about if he passed hakeem.

but shaq not making the finals this year is not fair, because if he did win a 'ship he would have gotten limited credit..... im not buying this one.

MJ and pippen is a stretch for this argument.... they both came into their primes together....

anyway... did hakeem ever have a top 10 player in the league (at the time) next to him?

I don't know, I think Shaq would've gotten credit (not a whole lot, but a good amount).

When a team loses, makes a trade/addition in the offseason, then the new player gets a lot of credit/blame usually for the win/loss. Check Vince Carter.

Hakeem had Drexler, who was definitely nothing to scoff at.

I think Kobe has passed Dream, but that's my opinion.

[mattevans11]

I don't know, I think Shaq would've gotten credit (not a whole lot, but a good amount).

When a team loses, makes a trade/addition in the offseason, then the new player gets a lot of credit/blame usually for the win/loss. Check Vince Carter.

Hakeem had Drexler, who was definitely nothing to scoff at.

I think Kobe has passed Dream, but that's my opinion.


in his waning years.......

depends how you rank tehm honestly..... you could argue both ways...

pro kobe- I think hakeem would give up all his accolades for 5 rings

pro hakeem - in an all time draft of players in their prime 9/10 people draft hakeem over kobe.

hakeem is the most all around skilled big man in NBA history in my opinion.

but just step back and see what this thread is proving... that kobe has moved up a spot? who cares?

[ShaqAttack3234]

Or how Shaq only won rings when he had a Top 3 (at the time) player on his team (and didn't make it to the Finals with the, arguably, #1 player on his team).

Kobe was nowhere near top 3 in 2000. In fact, he probably wasn't even top 10 in 2000. In 2001 and 2002? Top 3 is certainly debatable.

[Psileas]

Hmmm, where could this aLlarOUnDpIAyA troll be these last years? We missed him. :oldlol:

[0000000]

Hmmm, where could this aLlarOUnDpIAyA troll be these last years? We missed him. :oldlol:

And how about Knoe Itawl? :roll:

Kobe may be top 5 now. He's in the Bird/Magic class right now IMO.

[0000000]

I think MJ, KAJ and Wilt are top 3. Kobe can be argued to be as high as 4 and as low as 9. Same goes for Russell, Bird, Magic, Duncan and Shaq.

[zORi]

Kobe was nowhere near top 3 in 2000. In fact, he probably wasn't even top 10 in 2000. In 2001 and 2002? Top 3 is certainly debatable.

True, I could agree with that.

[ginobli2311]

i don't think this ring moves him up much on my list. just like a loss would not move him down much. I'd put him at 11 all time right now....but my rankings are heavily weighted towards actual play and not team accomplishments. If Kobe had played a legendary series I would probably put him ahead of hakeem.....but the fact that he had an awful series keeps him right at 11 or 12 all time.

lol at the people asking us to just ignore one of the worst game 7 performances of all time out of an elite player. all this does is prove that his team was by far the best in the league. there should be ten threads praising fisher/artest/odom/gasol/bynum after this series and playoffs. go back and look at what pau and artest did in the thunder series.

i just don't like ranking players solely off championships the way everyone does here so much. does playing the game not count for anything? 41% for the series. 25% in the 4th qtr for the series. and one of the worst game 7 performances of all time......and we are supposed to move him way up all time????????

[alexandreben]

Kobe is easily top-10...but he is not MJ...

why can't people just give Kobe the credit he is due, without trying to diminish him with comparisons to MJ?

AND, his career is not over. Barring injury, he will have 4-5 more seasons left. He has already played in 14 seasons, and will be close to 20 by the time he hangs it up.

How can ANYONE argue with that?????
Kobe? Top-10 now?? have you really watched the game 7? he played bloodyhell terrible with 6-24 as 25% of shooting, 0-6 of 3P%... had it not the referees held a double standards in the 4th Qtr, Kobe would've been the "Kobe Tragic Choker Bryant" now.

[Bodhi]

Kobe? Top-10 now?? have you really watched the game 7? he played bloodyhell terrible with 6-24 as 25% of shooting, 0-6 of 3P%... had it not the referees held a double standards in the 4th Qtr, Kobe would've been the "Kobe Tragic Choker Bryant" now.

Look up Duncan's stats in game 7 of the 2005 finals.

Is he not top 10? Or do bad games only count if they're by Kobe?

[Roundball_Rock]

Look at it this way, guys like Jordan took over when they had to, Kobe kind of, pretty much had his teammates bailing him out.

The Jordan mythology is getting ridiculous. MJ shot 36% in his last Game 7 (98' ECF, the closest the Bulls came to losing in any of their title runs). He shot 9 for 26 and 15 for 35 in the final two games of the 98' finals. Yet people act as if MJ never struggled in big games.

[boozehound]

yes.

First ranking all time is a pointless and endlessly moot exercise.

But hes not top 10. to say he surpassed hakeem is laughable.

[Yung D-Will]

He's top 10

But he didn't pass hakeem

[crisoner]

And how about Knoe Itawl? :roll:

Kobe may be top 5 now. He's in the Bird/Magic class right now IMO.


Kobe > Those Clowns.....LOL

Haven't seen them in a long while.

[boozehound]

Look up Duncan's stats in game 7 of the 2005 finals.

Is he not top 10? Or do bad games only count if they're by Kobe?
big difference between 25% and the 37% TD shot (10-27). or the other # below. Shooting less than 30% in the closer and winning the mvp? laughable.

[boozehound]

The Jordan mythology is getting ridiculous. MJ shot 36% in his last Game 7 (98' ECF, the closest the Bulls came to losing in any of their title runs). He shot 9 for 26 and 15 for 35 in the final two games of the 98' finals. Yet people act as if MJ never struggled in big games.
are you seriously posting a 43% fg (15/35) in comparison to 6/24 25%?

[ginobli2311]

big difference between 25% and the 37% TD shot (10-27). or the other # below. Shooting less than 30% in the closer and winning the mvp? laughable.

yep. just 12 percent better from the field and all of duncan's shots came within the offense so it didn't impact the rest of his team negatively the way kobe's game did. its night and day difference......stop making sense though boozehound....just stop it.

[creepingdeath]

At the moment, Kobe is definitely behind Russel, Wilt, MJ, Kareem, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Shaq and Duncan. So Top 10 at best. He's got the potential to surpass Shaq and Duncan and maybe Hakeem, but in order to do so, another ring and a finals MVP is a must-be.

Imo there's no way he's ever gonna get into the Top 5, no matter what the years to come bring. Russel, Wilt, MJ, Kareem and Bird are definitely a bar too high for the black mamba. Same goes more or less for Magic.

[Yung D-Will]

i don't think this ring moves him up much on my list. just like a loss would not move him down much. I'd put him at 11 all time right now....but my rankings are heavily weighted towards actual play and not team accomplishments. If Kobe had played a legendary series I would probably put him ahead of hakeem.....but the fact that he had an awful series keeps him right at 11 or 12 all time.

lol at the people asking us to just ignore one of the worst game 7 performances of all time out of an elite player. all this does is prove that his team was by far the best in the league. there should be ten threads praising fisher/artest/odom/gasol/bynum after this series and playoffs. go back and look at what pau and artest did in the thunder series.

i just don't like ranking players solely off championships the way everyone does here so much. does playing the game not count for anything? 41% for the series. 25% in the 4th qtr for the series. and one of the worst game 7 performances of all time......and we are supposed to move him way up all time????????


Okay then. I mean who cares about Winning? Shit we should just try to lose every game but put up great numbers so we can be higher on ginobli2311'S list.

Winners are Winners Kobe put up some great games in these playoffs and without him the Lakers wouldn't be there.

Gasol is a winner to without his great games the Lakers would be there

Why would we put Gasol as a top 10 player?

He was extraordinary but he had the Scottie Pippen 2nd option role.

It's that simple.

If Gasol won rings in Memphis as the first option he'd definitely be in the discussion.

[lakers_forever]

big difference between 25% and the 37% TD shot (10-27). or the other # below. Shooting less than 30% in the closer and winning the mvp? laughable.

Deciding game 6 of the 1996 NBA finals:

Michael Jordan (who won Final's MVP) : 22 pts on 5 of 19 shooting - 263%.

[PowerGlove]

Deciding game 6 of the 1996 NBA finals:

Michael Jordan (who won Final's MVP) : 22 pts on 5 of 19 shooting - 263%.
http://nflbook.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/nba_g_payton_jordan_400.jpg

[boozehound]

Deciding game 6 of the 1996 NBA finals:

Michael Jordan (who won Final's MVP) : 22 pts on 5 of 19 shooting - 263%.
much better comparison.

[The Iron Fist]

Where do all of these e-tears end up?

Is there a giant bucket in cyberspace to collect all of these sad wetdrops of pain?

People are going to hurt for years and years because of Kobes successful NBA career.

[-23-]

Deciding game 6 of the 1996 NBA finals:

Michael Jordan (who won Final's MVP) : 22 pts on 5 of 19 shooting - 263%.


Congrats, comparing single games. Might as well look at Kobe's record of having the most inefficient 50 pt games. We look at consistency here, not a single night.


Kobe is 11/10. Top 12 for sure though. I think some people forget that Jordan gotten 6 finals as a SG with no dominant inside presence as much as Kobe in his finals (Shaq, Gasol + Bynum + Odom ).

[Braincells]

Congrats, comparing single games. Might as well look at Kobe's record of having the most inefficient 50 pt games. We look at consistency here, not a single night.


Kobe is 11/10. Top 12 for sure though. I think some people forget that Jordan gotten 6 finals as a SG with no dominant inside presence as much as Kobe in his finals (Shaq, Gasol + Bynum + Odom ).

Better comparison:

Jordan's per game averages in 1996 finals
Min - 42
ppg - 27.3
fg% - .415
3p% - .316
FT% - .836
TRB - 5.3
Ast - 4.2
Stl - 1.7
Blk - .2
Tov - 3


Kobe's per game averages in 2010 finals
Min - 41.3
ppg - 28.6
fg% - .405
3p% - .319
FT% - .883
TRB - 8
Ast - 5.5
Stl - 2.14
Blk - .71
Tov - 3.86

Jordan - Final Game 1996 Finals
Min - 43
ppg - 22
fg% - 5-19 (.263)
3p% - 1-3 (.333)
FT% - 11-12 (.917)
TRB - 9
Ast - 7
Stl - 2
Blk - 0
Tov - 5

Kobe - Final Game 2010 Finals
Min - 45
ppg - 23
fg% - 6-24 (.25)
3p% - 0-6 (.000)
FT% - 11-15 (.733)
TRB - 15
Ast - 2
Stl - 1
Blk - 0
Tov - 4

[v1nce]

snip

I feel this is a bit out of context. First, it wasn't game 7 for the bulls so it wasn't a must win situation. Second, MJ's bad performance did not hurt his team as much as Kobe's hurt his.. I mean the Bulls won by 12 points. Overall, yeah their stats are similar but were in somewhat different situations.

congrats to Kobe and the Lakers though

[beasly15]

i think kobe is top 10, on top of everything else i think.

[-23-]

Better comparison:

Jordan's per game averages in 1996 finals
Min - 42
ppg - 27.3
fg% - .415
3p% - .316
FT% - .836
TRB - 5.3
Ast - 4.2
Stl - 1.7
Blk - .2
Tov - 3


Kobe's per game averages in 2010 finals
Min - 41.3
ppg - 28.6
fg% - .405
3p% - .319
FT% - .883
TRB - 8
Ast - 5.5
Stl - 2.14
Blk - .71
Tov - 3.86

Jordan - Final Game 1996 Finals
Min - 43
ppg - 22
fg% - 5-19 (.263)
3p% - 1-3 (.333)
FT% - 11-12 (.917)
TRB - 9
Ast - 7
Stl - 2
Blk - 0
Tov - 5

Kobe - Final Game 2010 Finals
Min - 45
ppg - 23
fg% - 6-24 (.25)
3p% - 0-6 (.000)
FT% - 11-15 (.733)
TRB - 15
Ast - 2
Stl - 1
Blk - 0
Tov - 4

Do you have seem to forgotten that Jordan was matched with Payton the DPOY. Whereas Kobe was being guarded by ALLEN?

Again these comparisons are futile.

[alexandreben]

Do you have seem to forgotten that Jordan was matched with Payton the DPOY. Whereas Kobe was being guarded by ALLEN?

Again these comparisons are futile.
Hand-Checking!

[AirJordan&Magic]

Lmao! At any moron who has Kobe ranked anywhere lower than 9 at this point of his career.

Kobe is EASILY a top 8 player of all time in my opinion.

[Glide2keva]

maybe he is... maybe he isnt

but he is in the 8-12 range..... but he already was in that range before this ring
Not in my book he wasn't.

[Yung D-Will]

Not in my book he wasn't.

That's a book I definitely wouldn't recommend to anyone.

[04mzwach]

not in the top 15

[nycelt84]

What in the world causes some of you posters to overrate guys like Hakeem Olajuwon continuously? I don't see how in the world he's Top 10 or how you can even put him above Kobe especially with Kobe now winning another Finals MVP and championship #5. I have Kobe at #7 all-time and think he has to be rated anywhere from #6 to #9.

[branslowski]

Hakeem was a better basketball player than Kobe,accomplishments aside.Kobe played sidekick to Shaq for his 3 rings and got carried by his team the 5th one see what happens if you pair Hakeem up with a top 10 perimeter player like MJ bird or magic

http://i27.tinypic.com/2rpupkz.jpg

[mongePR(kb24)]

kobe is top 15 .

[ShaqAttack3234]

What in the world causes some of you posters to overrate guys like Hakeem Olajuwon continuously? I don't see how in the world he's Top 10 or how you can even put him above Kobe especially with Kobe now winning another Finals MVP and championship #5. I have Kobe at #7 all-time and think he has to be rated anywhere from #6 to #9.

So more rings= better player? Come on, Kobe in his first championship wasn't even a superstar. He was good, but averaged 22/6/5 on 47% shooting in the regular season, 21/4/4 on 44% shooting in the playoffs and in the finals, he shot 37%, averaged 2.4 more shot attempts than ppg and had just 1 good game the entire series.

Olajuwon "only" 1 two rings, but his 1995 playoff run is arguably the greatest ever. The year before, he held Ewing to 36% shooting in the finals and forced him into averaging 4 more FGA than ppg. And it wasn't like Olajuwon didn't have a good series offensively, he had 27 ppg on 50% shooting vs a great Knick defense that was very physical and played him with several defenders and swarming double teams. The following year he completely embarrassed league MVP David Robinson in the conference finals and outplayed Shaq for the championship.

In 1986, he led a team all the way to the finals, upset the defending champion Showtime Lakers in 5 games and was just dominant throughout the playoffs. All in his second season. Then in '87 he lost in double OT in game 7 of the WCSF while putting up 49/24/6 while Houston's second option Ralph Sampson was invisible in the game. In 1988, Houston lost in the 1st round, but all Olajuwon did was average 37/17 on 57% shooting. In 1993, he again took the Rockets to game 7 of the WCSF and averaged 26/14/5/5 in that playoff run.

I have no problem with someone ranking Kobe over Olajuwon, though I disagree and Olajuwon is definitely top 10.

[branslowski]

kobe is top 7 .

Fixed

[branslowski]

The fact that ppl ignore the facts really disgust me.


Kobe easily has the facts to justify him being top 10...There's 0 reason he should be not in your top 10...Only reason he wouldn't be in it is if your trying to troll or your legally retarded.

[juju151111]

http://i27.tinypic.com/2rpupkz.jpg
Mj is the Goat of BB and Music:bowdown:

[branslowski]

Mj is the Goat of BB and Music:bowdown:

:cheers:

[ginobli2311]

The fact that ppl ignore the facts really disgust me.


Kobe easily has the facts to justify him being top 10...There's 0 reason he should be not in your top 10...Only reason he wouldn't be in it is if your trying to troll or your legally retarded.

i understand what you are saying. but i think there are 9 players in history that were decidedly better than kobe. so its a little absurd to claim people are idiots for not having him in their top ten. we don't have pippen or havlicek in the top ten......those players had better careers than kobe, but we rank kobe ahead of them.

kobe is definitely in the range of 10 to 15.....but claiming that its a no brainer to put him in the top ten is just not true. we are ranking players.......and how those players played the game is more important than rings....which again....rings are based on team success. you have to be able to try and judge accordingly.

again. if the criteria was rings and either being the 2nd or 1st option then pippen and hondo should be ahead of kobe. pippen's impact for the bulls for those 6 championships can't be ignored. pippen was also the best perimeter defender of all time (closely followed by jordan)....his impact on defense can't be ignored because the bulls were so dominant mainly because of defense. pippen was a better rebounder and passer as well.

so why did most agree that kobe was a better player than pippen after his third title? because we watched him play. we saw that he just played the game better and we saw that he was able to carry the lakers for stretches in big games a little better than pippen ever did. and most felt this way before kobe's 4th and 5th ring.

so don't come on here and say what you do because you are creating a double standard.

[Lakers13]

Haters still got reasons to keep Kobe out of their Top 10, you fools are sad. Prob the same kids who said last year Kobe wasnt top 10 and would need another title and fmvp to be in their top 10 :oldlol:

[Braincells]

Because with every championship ring that Kobe wins, the hate increases and thus the haters hold him to higher standards that he can never reach.

Here are the list of excuses I've heard, feel free to add more:

"Kobe can't win without Shaq"
"Kobe can't win without a dominant big man"
"Kobe can't win without a talented team"
"Kobe can't with without a HOF coach"
"Kobe always gets bailed out by his teammates"

The thing is if he wins his 6th next year, people will come up with even more ridiculous arguments -- I honestly can't wait to see it.

[Disaprine]

Hakeem was a better basketball player than Kobe,accomplishments aside.Kobe played sidekick to Shaq for his 3 rings and got carried by his team the 5th one see what happens if you pair Hakeem up with a top 10 perimeter player like MJ bird or magic
:roll:

[Shepseskaf]

You can make an argument Kobe has surpassed Hakeem in the all-time list.
Kobe will never be as good a player as The Dream. He has more titles, but that has a lot more to do with teammates and situation than in individual skills.

[nycelt84]

Top 10 of all time
1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Larry Bird
6. Magic Johnson
7. Kobe Bryant
8. Oscar Robertson
9. Tim Duncan
10. Shaquille O'Neal

I don't see a place for Hakeem above any of those 10 guys, and there's still a few other guys I would put ahead of him.

[ginobli2311]

Because with every championship ring that Kobe wins, the hate increases and thus the haters hold him to higher standards that he can never reach.

Here are the list of excuses I've heard, feel free to add more:

"Kobe can't win without Shaq"
"Kobe can't win without a dominant big man"
"Kobe can't win without a talented team"
"Kobe can't with without a HOF coach"
"Kobe always gets bailed out by his teammates"

The thing is if he wins his 6th next year, people will come up with even more ridiculous arguments -- I honestly can't wait to see it.

ok. i haven't seen one member of this board rank kobe lower than number 12 all time after this year. how can you call that hate? seriously?

pippen and hondo actually have far more hate because i haven't seen either of those players ranked in the top 20 all time often if ever.

there is not hate. only context.

so why do you rank kobe ahead of pippen? pippen has more titles.....and i think its fair to say that pippen's better rebounding, passing, and far superior defense is the equivalent of making up for kobe's 7 more points per game in the playoffs. we all know defense wins in the playoffs.....and pippen was the greatest perimeter defender of all time.....even better than mj and noticeably better in my opinion. pippen dominated that side of the floor as much as if not more than kobe has ever dominated on offense......and we all know defense is more important.......so again.....why is kobe better?

do you see the double standards you are creating? what about hondo? hondo has very similar post season numbers and has 8 titles and 1 finlas mvp.
again....why is kobe better than hondo using your criteria?

[Shepseskaf]

Top 10 of all time
1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Larry Bird
6. Magic Johnson
7. Kobe Bryant
8. Oscar Robertson
9. Tim Duncan
10. Shaquille O'Neal

I don't see a place for Hakeem above any of those 10 guys, and there's still a few other guys I would put ahead of him.
Russell at #2? Bird over Magic? Kobe at #7? :lol

Your list needs some serious revising.

[Sarcastic]

1 Jordan
2 Wilt
3 Magic
4 Russell
5 Jabbar
6 Bird
7 Shaq
8 Kobe
9 Duncan
10 Oscar

Kobe is top 10. He is right there at number 8.

[ginobli2311]

1 Jordan
2 Wilt
3 Magic
4 Russell
5 Jabbar
6 Bird
7 Shaq
8 Kobe
9 Duncan
10 Oscar

Kobe is top 10. He is right there at number 8.

i think you are seriously not giving duncan enough credit.
my list:

1. jordan
2. magic
3. russell
4. wilt
5. jabbar
6. duncan
7. bird
8. shaq
9. hakeem
10. kobe/oscar

[Sarcastic]

i think you are seriously not giving duncan enough credit.
my list:

1. jordan
2. magic
3. russell
4. wilt
5. jabbar
6. duncan
7. bird
8. shaq
9. hakeem
10. kobe/oscar

For me, 4-10 is negotiable. 1-3 is a lock though. Jordan, Wilt, Magic. Those 3 changed the game more than anyone else in history.

[justin43]

I am sorry, but if Kobe is not in your list between 6 and 9 all time then you must be one of three things:

1. Kobe hater
2. troll
3. Retarded

There is no reason why a player with 5 rings and 2 FMVPs with numerous achievements is not top 10. You will have to be biased against Kobe to even attempt to argue it. Oscar should be on no one's top 10 list.:no: That is all I have to say on this matter.

[Sarcastic]

I am sorry, but if Kobe is not in your list between 6 and 9 all time then you must be one of three things:

1. Kobe hater
2. troll
3. Retarded

There is no reason why a player with 5 rings and 2 FMVPs with numerous achievements is not top 10. You will have to be biased against Kobe to even attempt to argue it. Oscar should be on no one's top 10 list.:no: That is all I have to say on this matter.

I meant Oscar Robertson, not Oscar the Grouch, and why can't he be on a top 10 list? Have you ever seen his accomplishments? Robertson I mean, not the Grouch.

[ginobli2311]

I am sorry, but if Kobe is not in your list between 6 and 9 all time then you must be one of three things:

1. Kobe hater
2. troll
3. Retarded

There is no reason why a player with 5 rings and 2 FMVPs with numerous achievements is not top 10. You will have to be biased against Kobe to even attempt to argue it. Oscar should be on no one's top 10 list.:no: That is all I have to say on this matter.

then why is hondo not in your top ten? 8 titles and 1 finals mvp is better than 5 titles and 2 finals mvps.......????????????

kobe career in playoffs:
25 points 5 boards 5 assists

hondo career in playoffs:
22 points 7 boards 5 assists

???????????????????????? this will be really really good. can't wait to hear this one.

[ginobli2311]

For me, 4-10 is negotiable. 1-3 is a lock though. Jordan, Wilt, Magic. Those 3 changed the game more than anyone else in history.

its hard for me to rank wilt ahead of russell. i'm not a huge fan of rings....but at some point 11 rings to 2 playing in the same era has to be important. russell was also a better defender. its close.....but overall i have russell slightly ahead of wilt.

[Shepseskaf]

I am sorry, but if Kobe is not in your list between 6 and 9 all time then you must be one of three things:

1. Kobe hater
2. troll
3. Retarded

There is no reason why a player with 5 rings and 2 FMVPs with numerous achievements is not top 10. You will have to be biased against Kobe to even attempt to argue it. Oscar should be on no one's top 10 list.:no: That is all I have to say on this matter.
Excuse other people for having an opinion on the Top 10 that doesn't include Kobe. Maybe #3 on your list applies to you.

My list:

1) MJ
2) Kareem
3) Magic
4) Wilt
5) Bird
6) Hakeem
7) Duncan
8) Russell
9) Oscar
10) Moses Malone

[All Net]

ginobli2311

Just curous why do you rank Kareem so low? he to me should be ranked 2nd. He has been the best player outside of MJ, stats wise he was unreal and his record in the playoffs was 2nd to none.

[ginobli2311]

ginobli2311

Just curous why do you rank Kareem so low? he to me should be ranked 2nd. He has been the best player outside of MJ, stats wise he was unreal and his record in the playoffs was 2nd to none.

yea. i used to have kareem at 2. then i did a ton of research. his numbers are great, but he really didn't have a passion for basketball. and simply i think magic was a better overall player. same for russell and wilt. its very close though.

[The Iron Fist]

yea. i used to have kareem at 2. then i did a ton of research. his numbers are great, but he really didn't have a passion for basketball. and simply i think magic was a better overall player. same for russell and wilt. its very close though.


He didn't?

You need to brush up on your Kareem history.

He worked on that hook shot,

since he was a kid.

I guess because he wasn't yelling like a maniac after rebounds and dunks,

he had no passion.

Kareem was a class act all the way around,

there wasn't a need to be passionate when all he did was win.

Going by your passion rating,

Kobe should be top 2.

[Anaximandro1]

Kobe is an exceptional player,but not one GM in the NBA would take Kobe over Olajuwon,Duncan or Shaq.Yeah,Kobe has 5 rings,is great,but he had ridiculously stacked teams.

[ginobli2311]

He didn't?

You need to brush up on your Kareem history.

He worked on that hook shot,

since he was a kid.

I guess because he wasn't yelling like a maniac after rebounds and dunks,

he had no passion.

Kareem was a class act all the way around,

there wasn't a need to be passionate when all he did was win.

Going by your passion rating,

Kobe should be top 2.

ok....let me clarify. i was not basing it all on his passion. its just that magic really reinvigorated kareem's career and kareem had made it perfectly clear that he was ok with just playing and getting his money.

but that was not the only reason or the biggest reason. russell was a much better defender and and rebounder and russell was able to have his success without playing alongside a legit top 10 player like magic.

so in my rankings i have jordan, magic, and russell in the top tier. then i have wilt and kareem....honestly you could switch those. i just have wilt higher because i think he was a little more dominant and a bit better overall....but its almost impossible in my mind to distinguish between the two.

[The Iron Fist]

Kobe is an exceptional player,but not one GM in the NBA would take Kobe over Olajuwon,Duncan or Shaq.Yeah,Kobe has 5 rings,is great,but he had ridiculously stacked teams.
Most championship teams do.


For instance, look at the Celtics in the 80s,

4, thats right,

FOUR HOFers, on one team.

[Sarcastic]

its hard for me to rank wilt ahead of russell. i'm not a huge fan of rings....but at some point 11 rings to 2 playing in the same era has to be important. russell was also a better defender. its close.....but overall i have russell slightly ahead of wilt.

On my all time QB list, I have Dan Marino ahead of Terry Bradshaw. I don't put winning, which is a lot of the times out of a players control, ahead of personal achievement.

[Heilige]

Michael Wilbon thinks he is top 20:



I've developed something of a consistent response on this now and it starts with this: Kobe Bryant is the best player in the game today. He's the most reliable winner, the best closer, the guy with the greatest killer instinct. he can do more stuff than anybody out there, even though LeBron James skill set seems to be greater. Anyway, Kobe's the best out there. He's probably one of the top 20 players all-time right now.

But, he ain't Magic Johnson. I'm beginning to disregard the opinion of all the Laker people in this area because they're vested in praising Kobe, in keeping him happy, and Jerry West is a kind, man...not a selfish instinct in his body ... and the greatest player/executive combination ever...But Kobe Bryant isn't close to as great or impactful a player as Magic Johnson. Hear me on this: It ain't close. And don't write any notes about me Kobe hating. Kobe is a great, great, great, great player. I LOVE watching him play, love that he has given me tons of access as a reporter/columnist, and I'm damn grateful for that. I like the verbal back-and-forth, which we've had for close to 10 years. I really and truly appreciate being able to watch Kobe Bryant up close.

But he's not Magic. Magic and Larry Bird invented the modern game of professional basketball with their redefining of offensive basketball through passing. They INVENTED THE GAME WE SEE TODAY. Kobe, in his career, has never had a game that touches Magic's NBA Finals Game 6 in Philly his ROOKIE season. As a rookie, playing on the road, in place of Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, probably the third greatest center who ever lived (perhaps No. 2 behind Russell and ahead of Wilt), Magic had 42 points, 15 rebounds, seven assists, three steals ... Do people under 30 even know Magic did that 31 years ago? People under 40. Jerry West knows. I know. People now are too quick to forget the great players, forget how fundamentally sound they were, forget how much smarter they were than MOST players today with their AAU mentalities. Magic got to the Finals 9 times in 12 years. Hell, the only people he lost to in the playoffs were Jordan, Bird, Moses Malone, Moses and Julius Erving, Hakeem and I think the Portland TrailBlazers who twice got to the Finals. NINE FINALS IN 12 YEARS people. Yes, Magic played with better players. Pre-expansion, EVERYBODY played with better players. But you know what, if Magic had played on the Hawks, you think he and Dominique Wilkins wouldn't have won? If Magic had played with Alex English and Fat Lever in Denver, you think they wouldn't have won? Please. Stop it. And don't even get me started with the Jordan comparisons, which are silly. What one thing does Kobe Bryant do better than Michael Jordan did? The answer is none.

I love Kobe. He's the best out there. But there's NOTHING he does--handle the ball, shoot it, defend, rebound, pass--that's close to good as Michael Jordan. Tell me what it would be. Somebody tell me. Michael shot 54 percent twice in his career. Playing the same position against weaker defenders in an era where you CANNOT BY RULE be as physical, Kobe has never shot 48 percent. Do you realize how much more efficient 6 percent per year just on shooting makes a player? And I haven't even brought up Oscar and Elgin Baylor, players I only saw when they were on the downsides of their careers ... So, I respect Jerry West as much if not more than anybody out there. But I've watched Magic's entire career and I've watched Kobe's entire career, and on this I'm not interested in defering to anybody when it comes to constructing an argument for one or the other. I saw Magic. And I can't imagine people who actually watched both closely -- excpet for people in the Lakers family who have interests in supporting both players -- AS THEY SHOULD, by the way--who make a great case for Kobe being better than Magic.

Better? Kornheiser makes the case that if he had to construct a team and win one game FOR HIS LIFE he'd take Magic. And you know what? I have a difficult time going against that ... Because Magic, we know from Game 6 in Philly, could play all five positions. Can Kobe do that? No. Michael? No.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2010/06/14/DI2010061404657.html

[nycelt84]

Russell at #2? Bird over Magic? Kobe at #7? :lol

Your list needs some serious revising.

Magic Johnson in his peak season= Larry Bird's 4th or 5th best season. In his prime no one would dare to compare Magic to Bird except for Laker fans. Bird's peak is among the 3 or 4 best in NBA history.

[ginobli2311]

Michael Wilbon thinks he is top 20:





http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2010/06/14/DI2010061404657.html

uh oh. a truth teller in the media. maybe this will knock some sense into people.

[All Net]

Magic Johnson in his peak season= Larry Bird's 4th or 5th best season. In his prime no one would dare to compare Magic to Bird except for Laker fans. Bird's peak is among the 3 or 4 best in NBA history.

That is just idiotic

[ginobli2311]

On my all time QB list, I have Dan Marino ahead of Terry Bradshaw. I don't put winning, which is a lot of the times out of a players control, ahead of personal achievement.

totally agree. great post. its really really hard to rank players. i try to put much more importance on how a player actually plays. that is why i have mj and magic 1 and 2. i think they were the best 2 players and the most complete 2 players. i have russell three because he was the best defensive player of all time by a wide margin. considering defense and rebounding still remains the most important aspect of winning in the sport....its enough to rank russell ahead of kareem and wilt for me. like i said.......kareem and wilt are so close its hard for me to pick. i go with wilt.....but its very very close.

[crisoner]

Magic Johnson in his peak season= Larry Bird's 4th or 5th best season. In his prime no one would dare to compare Magic to Bird except for Laker fans. Bird's peak is among the 3 or 4 best in NBA history.

Oh shut the f*ck up Celtic fans pushing Larry's Legend a lil too far.

I respect both player but Magic'c career owns Larry's in three stages...

College Magic won the title...

NBA Magic won 2 out of 3 head to head match ups vs. Larry and has 5 rings to Larry's 3...

And after Basketball Magic is a billionaire from his business ventures.

Magic was the NBA's greatest court general of all time made every player around him better like nobody else in NBA history could.


So f*ck you and your Celtic horse you rode in with.

Magic > Bird nuff said.

[The Iron Fist]

ok....let me clarify. i was not basing it all on his passion. its just that magic really reinvigorated kareem's career and kareem had made it perfectly clear that he was ok with just playing and getting his money.

but that was not the only reason or the biggest reason. russell was a much better defender and and rebounder and russell was able to have his success without playing alongside a legit top 10 player like magic.

so in my rankings i have jordan, magic, and russell in the top tier. then i have wilt and kareem....honestly you could switch those. i just have wilt higher because i think he was a little more dominant and a bit better overall....but its almost impossible in my mind to distinguish between the two.

No, Magic did not invigorate Kareems career. He was simply the final piece of the puzzle just as Pau is for todays Lakers.

lmao "he made it perfectly clear he was ok with yadda yadda yadda".

What else should he have been worried about as a professional basketball player? The oil crisis?


You have done very little to no research on Kareem, its quite obvious.

[nycelt84]

That is just idiotic

What's idiotic about it? Learn some history before just making assertions. Larry Bird during his career was getting talk as being the greatest player of all time from multiple sources. Magic Johnson during his career never received that kind of talk. Bird's 1984, 1985, 1986, 1988 were all better seasons than Magic's best season of 1987.

[zizozain]

Because with every championship ring that Kobe wins, the hate increases and thus the haters hold him to higher standards that he can never reach.

Here are the list of excuses I've heard, feel free to add more:

"Kobe can't win without Shaq"
"Kobe can't win without a dominant big man"
"Kobe can't win without a talented team"
"Kobe can't with without a HOF coach"
"Kobe always gets bailed out by his teammates"

The thing is if he wins his 6th next year, people will come up with even more ridiculous arguments -- I honestly can't wait to see it.

"Kobe can't win 2 straight afternoon games" like mj
"Kobe can't win he had checkin for lunch in Indiana" like mj

it will never stop .. the will go on n on n on ...

it's possible that he will
-play 60,000 minutes (regular season plus playoffs),
-score 35,000 points (the most by any guard ever),
-play 250-plus playoff games (the record is 244),
-pass 6,000 playoff points (also a record)
-win seven titles .
-lead the Lakers the to be team with most NBA the championship titles.

and If he plays at a high level through his late 30s,
he has a real chance to pass Kareem’s 38,387 points.



then hmmmmmmmmmmmm :confusedshrug:

[boozehound]

Oh shut the f*ck up Celtic fans pushing Larry's Legend a lil too far.

I respect both player but Magic'c career owns Larry's in three stages...

College Magic won the title...

NBA Magic won 2 out of 3 head to head match ups vs. Larry and has 5 rings to Larry's 3...

And after Basketball Magic is a billionaire from his business ventures.

Magic was the NBA's greatest court general of all time made every player around him better like nobody else in NBA history could.


So f*ck you and your Celtic horse you rode in with.

Magic > Bird nuff said.
ok, well I tend to rate magic slightly above bird. But, by referencing non-bball BS as part of your post (plus the anti-celts venom), you basically invalidate your argument. Especially since its a team game.


also, bird = no HIV, magic = HIV, so tell me who really won.

[nycelt84]

Oh shut the f*ck up Celtic fans pushing Larry's Legend a lil too far.

I respect both player but Magic'c career owns Larry's in three stages...

College Magic won the title...

NBA Magic won 2 out of 3 head to head match ups vs. Larry and has 5 rings to Larry's 3...

And after Basketball Magic is a billionaire from his business ventures.

Magic was the NBA's greatest court general of all time made every player around him better like nobody else in NBA history could.


So f*ck you and your Celtic horse you rode in with.

Magic > Bird nuff said.

How does being a billionaire make Magic a better player than Bird? And bringing up the college NCAA title game is stupid. Johnson played on a NCAA title team with future pros and a great coach while Bird played on a team that did nothing before him and nothing after he left being the very definition of a one man team and he was the National Player of the Year. For most of their careers Bird was recognized as the clear superior player. You're the one over here who's overrating Magic Johnson. Bird was a better shooter, scorer, rebounder, defender, and his near equal in passing who made players around him better.

I guess since titles make Magic better than Bird, then Bill Russell is the goat right?

[ThaRegul8r]

Of course he's top 10 now. He's in the Duncan/Shaq/Hakeem bracket. The fact he had a lousy game 7 doesn't change that. Nobody will remember it in 20 years. Same as no one remembers MJ's lousy close out performance against the Sonics.

I do, because I actually watched the series as it was happening. I remember talk going on at the time about perhaps Shawn Kemp being the second Finals MVP from the losing team. I remember talk about Dennis Rodman for Finals MVP, because his record offensive rebounding won two games for the Bulls in which no one could shoot, and seeing how the Bulls won the series 4-2, take away those two games Rodman won, and... yeah. I've pointed out for years how every Finals but that one (ironically from the record-breaking 72-10 year) had a memorable MJ moment: "Oh what a spectacular move" in '91, the 3-point shooting exhibition and the shrug in '92, averaging 41 in '93, the flu game in '97, and the title-winning shot in '98.

[nycelt84]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-CZRmTs_kY

In this commercial from 1987 Rick Barry mentions that at that point in time Larry Bird was already being mentioned as the greatest player of all time. At no point during his playing career was Magic Johnson ever mentioned as such by a wide group of people.

[ThaRegul8r]

How does being a billionaire make Magic a better player than Bird?

It doesn't. When evaluating two people as players, the only thing relevant is what they did on the court and anything that relates to what they did on the court. Bringing up extraneous stuff is silly.

[ProfessorMurder]

also, bird = no HIV, magic = HIV, so tell me who really won.

:roll: That's cold booze haha.

[nycelt84]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1PCAQYi-RI

In December 1987 even Chick Hearn the voice of the Lakers himself knew that nobody did it better than Bird.

[ThaRegul8r]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-CZRmTs_kY

In this commercial from 1987 Rick Barry mentions that at that point in time Larry Bird was already being mentioned as the greatest player of all time. At no point during his playing career was Magic Johnson ever mentioned as such by a wide group of people.

Yes, there was a lot of Bird = GOAT talk going on during the mid-to-late '80s.

[branslowski]

Excuse other people for having an opinion on the Top 10 that doesn't include Kobe. Maybe #3 on your list applies to you.

My list:

1) MJ
2) Kareem
3) Magic
4) Wilt
5) Bird
6) Hakeem
7) Duncan
8) Russell
9) Oscar
10) Moses Malone

Is factually not above Kobe.

[justin43]

I am sorry, but if Kobe is not in your list between 6 and 9 all time then you must be one of three things:

1. Kobe hater
2. troll
3. Retarded

There is no reason why a player with 5 rings and 2 FMVPs with numerous achievements is not top 10. You will have to be biased against Kobe to even attempt to argue it. Oscar should be on no one's top 10 list.:no: That is all I have to say on this matter.

I quote myself because the panda bear didn't read my full post when he mentioned John's 8 rings and 1 mvp. Notice the words "numerous achievements" with his rings and final's MVP awards. If it was just rings, then you may have had an argument, panda man. As for Oscar, there are 10 guys or more better than him that deserve to be on the top 10 more than him.

I want to see John's stats and career achievements. You may convince me if you provide evidence.

I maintain my statement.

[ProfessorMurder]

Is factually not above Kobe.

You like Twilight

/credibility

[ginobli2311]

Is factually not above Kobe.

agree to disagree about hakeem. hakeem was a better player than kobe in nearly every way.

hakeem scored the ball better and more efficiently. hakeem required more defensive attention this opening up more scoring opportunities for his teammates. hakeem was a better rebounder and had a far superior impact on the defensive end as well. hakeem won two titles with the worst historical help any superstar has ever had. sorry......could not disagree with you more. kobe has been blessed with great teams throughout his career. but kobe in hakeem's shoes and he does not even sniff a title or even make the nba finals one time in his career.

[ginobli2311]

I quote myself because the panda bear didn't read my full post when he mentioned John's 8 rings and 1 mvp. Notice the words "numerous achievements" with his rings and final's MVP awards. If it was just rings, then you may have had an argument, panda man. As for Oscar, there are 10 guys or more better than him that deserve to be on the top 10 more than him.

I want to see John's stats and career achievements. You may convince me if you provide evidence.

I maintain my statement.


uhhhhh.

13 straight all star games
tons of all nba teams and all defensive teams throughout his career
and 8 titles and 1 finals mvp and very similar post season numbers

sorry dude. this is exactly why you have to use context and logical reasoning when ranking players.......because we all know that kobe was superior to hondo. but when you look at it with a narrow minded view like you do.....you can't get to the correct answer. its that simple.

[All Net]

agree to disagree about hakeem. hakeem was a better player than kobe in nearly every way.

hakeem scored the ball better and more efficiently. hakeem required more defensive attention this opening up more scoring opportunities for his teammates. hakeem was a better rebounder and had a far superior impact on the defensive end as well. hakeem won two titles with the worst historical help any superstar has ever had. sorry......could not disagree with you more. kobe has been blessed with great teams throughout his career. but kobe in hakeem's shoes and he does not even sniff a title or even make the nba finals one time in his career.

Comparing a guard with a big man/center is very hard to do. There are bound to be clear advantages Hakeem has over Kobe and he does.

[justin43]

uhhhhh.

13 straight all star games
tons of all nba teams and all defensive teams throughout his career
and 8 titles and 1 finals mvp and very similar post season numbers

sorry dude. this is exactly why you have to use context and logical reasoning when ranking players.......because we all know that kobe was superior to hondo. but when you look at it with a narrow minded view like you do.....you can't get to the correct answer. its that simple.

All I ask for you to do is to provide the stats, which you only provided a small amount, not your opinion on my point of view. This is why it is hard for people to listen to your argument because you always insult people. I will look them up myself and I will look for gameplay footage before I decide.

[ginobli2311]

All I ask for you to do is to provide the stats, which you only provided a small amount, not your opinion on my point of view. This is why it is hard for people to listen to your argument because you always insult people. I will look them up myself and I will look for gameplay footage before I decide.

no...that is my point.

i have already stated that i think kobe is better. i'm using hondo as an example as to why rings are being way overvalued on here. sure they are very very important. but if you don't look at context and evaluate the level of play then there is really nothing to debate about.

its why i despise posts that do this......

LOL...UMAD kobe 5 rings.....lebron 0

UMAD son......lebron a bust

its such flawed logic. do you now understand?

[All Net]

its why i despise posts that do this......

LOL...UMAD kobe 5 rings.....lebron 0

UMAD son......lebron a bust

its such flawed logic. do you now understand?

So do Laker fans, there is nothing worse than seeing Lebron vs Kobe threads all the time. It's embarrassing. it's basically taking away what L.A did as a TEAM.

[ginobli2311]

Comparing a guard with a big man/center is very hard to do. There are bound to be clear advantages Hakeem has over Kobe and he does.

i totally agree. but that doesn't change the fact that hakeem was just a little bit better of a basketball player than kobe and it shows in his stats and results.

[0000000]

For some people to accept Kobe being better than those top 10-15 players, he's literally going to have to twice as good, have twice as many rings etc.
Usually when doing these comparisons when a player has one ring more than the other player, it's a huge deal. For Kobe, he's gonna need like 3 more than eveyone else.
And if he has rings, it's still not enough. There's still gotta be something people can use against him. Really, until there is nothing they can use against him, they won't accept it.

Kobe is obviously anywhere from 4 to 9. No one can realistically argue that and make a good case.

[0000000]

i totally agree. but that doesn't change the fact that hakeem was just a little bit better of a basketball player than kobe and it shows in his stats and results.

Kobe has 3 more rings than Hakeem! 3! He wins one more, he's gonna have 3 times more rings than Hakeem!

[ginobli2311]

Kobe has 3 more rings than Hakeem! 3! He wins one more, he's gonna have 3 times more rings than Hakeem!

sigh....its like talking to brick walls. i'll never get through.

[crisoner]

LOL

3 + 1 still = 3.....classic!

[JMT]

ok....let me clarify. i was not basing it all on his passion. its just that magic really reinvigorated kareem's career and kareem had made it perfectly clear that he was ok with just playing and getting his money.

but that was not the only reason or the biggest reason. russell was a much better defender and and rebounder and russell was able to have his success without playing alongside a legit top 10 player like magic.

so in my rankings i have jordan, magic, and russell in the top tier. then i have wilt and kareem....honestly you could switch those. i just have wilt higher because i think he was a little more dominant and a bit better overall....but its almost impossible in my mind to distinguish between the two.

I've been reading this thread and am curious. You've chastised people for using a "double standard", yet you downgrade Magic because he played with a Top 10 all time player (as opposed to Russell, though one could argue that the overall strength of the Boston roster in that era was an equalizer) but don't apply that same penalty to Pippen, who you continually want to upgrade.

See my confusion?

As a postscript, I've been watching the NBA since the early/mid 60's. Bryant's one of the ten best players I've ever seen.

[1987_Lakers]

As time passes Kobe will be in all of people's top 10 list. There is just too much haters out there to accept he is in the top 10 & we tend to undervalue current players, seriously...how many people had Hakeem in their top 10 list right when he retired?

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

as a fan, doesn't matter to me that he is, or is not, top-10.
what DOES matter is that he delivered yet another Championship to the greatest franchise.

[justin43]

no...that is my point.

i have already stated that i think kobe is better. i'm using hondo as an example as to why rings are being way overvalued on here. sure they are very very important. but if you don't look at context and evaluate the level of play then there is really nothing to debate about.

its why i despise posts that do this......

LOL...UMAD kobe 5 rings.....lebron 0

UMAD son......lebron a bust

its such flawed logic. do you now understand?

When did I at any point just mention rings as the sole reason for Kobe being top 10?:confusedshrug: I said rings, MVPS, AND achievements(which include gameplay). Those were my reasons. Where is the flawed logic? You attacked me only because I said Kobe belongs in the top 10. Do I need to provide video footage and a long list of records broken, 1st Nba defensive and all-team awards, and greatest achievements before I convince you that I didn't just say rings? Read my original post again before you quote me ever again.

[ginobli2311]

I've been reading this thread and am curious. You've chastised people for using a "double standard", yet you downgrade Magic because he played with a Top 10 all time player (as opposed to Russell, though one could argue that the overall strength of the Boston roster in that era was an equalizer) but don't apply that same penalty to Pippen, who you continually want to upgrade.

See my confusion?

As a postscript, I've been watching the NBA since the early/mid 60's. Bryant's one of the ten best players I've ever seen.

i either posted something misleading or you did not understand me.

i have magic 2nd all time ahead of russell.

i also do not try to upgrade pippen. i am trying to point out the flawed logic in basing so much of the rankings off of rings. my point is that most people had kobe ahead of pippen after his third title all time.....and rightfully so. but does that not illustrate that context and logic were being used?

now its simply....kobe has 5 rings....therefore he is better than duncan and hakeem. i just don't understand that line of thinking. if we do that then we have to say hondo is better than kobe and so on. rings should obviously be a factor....but just solely basing rankings off rings does not make sense at all.

[indiefan24]

i either posted something misleading or you did not understand me.

i have magic 2nd all time ahead of russell.

i also do not try to upgrade pippen. i am trying to point out the flawed logic in basing so much of the rankings off of rings. my point is that most people had kobe ahead of pippen after his third title all time.....and rightfully so. but does that not illustrate that context and logic were being used?

now its simply....kobe has 5 rings....therefore he is better than duncan and hakeem. i just don't understand that line of thinking. if we do that then we have to say hondo is better than kobe and so on. rings should obviously be a factor....but just solely basing rankings off rings does not make sense at all.

Why do you have Russell so high? 3rd right? He was an undersized center (6' 9"), .440 FG%, always was on stacked teams and had a career PER 18.9. So for you at some point the rings do have to count right??

[All Net]

as a fan, doesn't matter to me that he is, or is not, top-10.
what DOES matter is that he delivered yet another Championship to the greatest franchise.

My same thinking too :cheers:

[ginobli2311]

Why do you have Russell so high? 3rd right? He was an undersized center (6' 9"), .440 FG%, always was on stacked teams and had a career PER 18.9. So for you at some point the rings do have to count right??

of course rings count. never said that they didn't. i rank russell so highly because he was the best defensive player ever and a great rebounder and a great teammate. defense is clearly this most important aspect of basketball and russell dominated defensively unlike any player we have ever seen.

[Round Mound]

When has Kobe dominated games like Hakeem, Barkley, Jordan, Shaq, Duncan and a young Garnett?

I am talking about Triple Double like numbers and Constant Double Teaming with weaker casts yet still forcing tighter games.

Gasol should have won MVP IMO (Points, Higher FG%, Rebounds, Assists, Blocks). He is the modern day Kevin McHale with game creating and guard-like passing vision. Game 7 was dominated by Gasol

[chazzy]

When has Kobe dominated games like Hakeem, Barkley, Jordan, Shaq, Duncan and a young Garnett?

I am talking about Triple Double like numbers and Constant Double Teaming with weaker casts yet still forcing tighter games.

Gasol should have won MVP IMO (Points, FG%, Rebounds, APG, Blocks). He is the modern day Kevin McHale with game creating and guard-like passing vision. Game 7 was dominated by Gasol

CB4GOATPF?

[LA_Showtime]

as a fan, doesn't matter to me that he is, or is not, top-10.
what DOES matter is that he delivered yet another Championship to the greatest franchise.

Exactly. While he might not be as dominant as a Michael Jordan or LeBron James, he's still done the impossible: win 5 championships and spend half of his career playing in the NBA Finals.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

When has Kobe dominated games like Hakeem, Barkley, Jordan, Shaq, Duncan and a young Garnett?

I am talking about Triple Double like numbers and Constant Double Teaming with weaker casts yet still forcing tighter games.

Gasol should have won MVP IMO (Points, Higher FG%, Rebounds, Assists, Blocks). He is the modern day Kevin McHale with game creating and guard-like passing vision. Game 7 was dominated by Gasol

typing in bold does not make your statement true.

[Doranku]

Sir Charles is back. :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Round Mound]

Exactly. While he might not be as dominant as a Michael Jordan or LeBron James, he's still done the impossible: win 5 championships and spend half of his career playing in the NBA Finals.

Yes its me :D :applause: Still he isn`t as dominant as those players mentioned. Indeed he has had tooooo much help 80-90% of his Career. He is and will be remembered more by young fans but not by specialists who love the game since the 70s, 80s, 90s and even 2000s whom...have seen those players mentioned DOMINATE. That means they are better. No hate on Kobe he is asoume even more polished fundamentally than Jordan "In Some Aspects" but not close to the level of HIM or OTHERS MENTIONED simply because he doesn`t take over games like those. Rings have to do with team not level of player. :violin:

[Round Mound]

:applause: great post

:cheers: :rockon:

[ThaRegul8r]

I've been reading this thread and am curious. You've chastised people for using a "double standard", yet you downgrade Magic because he played with a Top 10 all time player (as opposed to Russell, though one could argue that the overall strength of the Boston roster in that era was an equalizer) but don't apply that same penalty to Pippen, who you continually want to upgrade.

I think about Magic and Kareem and Kobe and Shaq, and the thing is that for the majority of the time Magic played with Kareem, Kareem was no longer playing like a Top 10 Player of All Time. He was MVP in 1980, but after '81, his rebounding fell off a cliff, though his scoring and efficiency was always there. He was starting the decline, which was why Riley had to turn the keys over to Magic. To his credit, Kareem excepted it, and as a result, the Lakers won more rings.

During the time Kobe played with Shaq however, Shaq was not only playing like a Top 10 Player of All Time, but put up what is in contention for the GOAT peak. People were saying Shaq was the greatest player they'd ever seen. People were saying that only Wilt would have been able to guard him. So while Kobe and Magic both had the luxury of playing with other Top 10 players of all time, there's a decided difference in the point in those Top 10 players' careers they got to play with them.

[magnax1]

Yes its me :D :applause: Still he isn`t as dominant as those players mentioned. Indeed he has had tooooo much help 80-90% of his Career. He is and will be remembered more by young fans but not by specialists who love the game since the 70s, 80s, 90s and even 2000s whom...have seen those players mentioned DOMINATE. That means they are better. No hate on Kobe he is asoume even more polished fundamentally than Jordan "In Some Aspects" but not close to the level of HIM or OTHERS MENTIONED simply because he doesn`t take over games like those. Rings have to do with team not level of player. :violin:
Nice, its sir Charles.
Anyway, you're being kind of mean to Kobe. I see what you mean that he isn't dominant in the same way, but hes still a great player. And in no way did Pau deserve MVP. He may have been good on offense, but he was piss poor on defense, even in the last game.