Lebron played on 2 back to back 60+ win teams

[BlueandGold]

yet kobe is playing on the stacked team? At the end of the trade deadline this season after the Cavs acquired Jamison everyone on ISH and around the NBA was saying that the Cavs by far had the best team from top to bottom yet when they got bounced out of the playoffs in the seminfinals (a feat no #1 seed has accomplished since Golden state beat the mavs) it was all about how Boston was all of a sudden the better team with better veteran/all-around talent.

I'm sorry but you can't have the best of both worlds. You can't cry about having an inferior supporting cast when you've been trumped out of the playoffs by teams with the worse record two seasons in a row, especially two 60+ win seasons. having 60+ wins and losing to a team with 50 wins total that are facing all sorts of injury and old age problems is unacceptable, especially when the leader and superstar of that team is a no-show in a pivotal game 5.

[Skyscraper]

Cavaliers ate up the Eastern conference weaklings.

[VishaltotheG]

teammates are chokers

/thread

[ginobli2311]

yet kobe is playing on the stacked team? At the end of the trade deadline this season after the Cavs acquired Jamison everyone on ISH and around the NBA was saying that the Cavs by far had the best team from top to bottom yet when they got bounced out of the playoffs in the seminfinals (a feat no #1 seed has accomplished since Golden state beat the mavs) it was all about how Boston was all of a sudden the better team with better veteran/all-around talent.

I'm sorry but you can't have the best of both worlds. You can't cry about having an inferior supporting cast when you've been trumped out of the playoffs by teams with the worse record two seasons in a row, especially two 60+ win seasons. having 60+ wins and losing to a team with 50 wins total that are facing all sorts of injury and old age problems is unacceptable, especially when the leader and superstar of that team is a no-show in a pivotal game 5.

lol....your whole premise is flawed. they won 60 because lebron played at a such a high level. a much higher level than kobe has ever played at any point in his career.

sorry.....your post fails.

why not just watch and judge the actual players. if you think gasol/odom/bynum/fisher/artest is not significantly better than mo/jamison/shaq/west/andy......then you need help.

lebron's greatness is now becoming his own worst enemy because people like you don't understand the game at all.


my god about the cavs losing to the celtics. did you watch the celtics dominate the magic? did you watch them dominate the lakers? kobe looked like a boy amongst men out there for the series. the finals is perfect evidence that the supporting cast for the lakers is far far greater. end of story. kobe played like ass in every 4th qtr, played like ass overall, and played one of the worst game 7's in nba history.....and the lakers still won. LOL

[PowerGlove]

Yeah, I'm sure Mo Williams would chase Ray around shutting him down most of the series like Derek Fisher and I'm sure that Jamison would become a rebounding machine like Gasol and I especially sure that Anthony Parker or Mo(whoever) would become a knockdown shooter and step up when their star has an off game.

100% sure.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

Mo Will = Fisher
Parker << Artest
Jamison <<<<<<<<<<< Gasol
Shaq <<<< Bynum

:confusedshrug:

[Indian guy]

LeBron having 2 of the 5-10 greatest regular seasons of ALL TIME is a BIG reason why they won 60+ games to begin with.

[NewYorkUSCtrojan]

not this again...

[chazzy]

The Cavs did lose to the team that nearly won the title, so it's not like it's a huge upset in retrospect. But let's not act like Lebron played great and the only reason why they lost was because his team let him down. He was sub par in 3, or all the losses depending on how much you value those rebounds and turnovers in the last game.

[griffmoney2084]

its not that any one player on the cavs is as good as gasol

but they have a deap team


williams can go off for 20 points on any night

west never seems to miss a shot when i watch him play

jamison was putting up 20/10 before getting there

shaq was putting up 17/10 before getting there

big z is the best backup center in the nba

sideshow bob is one of the best defenders in the league


its a good team

lebron fans are just mad cause lebong flames choked

[ginobli2311]

LeBron having 2 of the 5-10 greatest regular seasons of ALL TIME is a BIG reason why they won 60+ games to begin with.

exactly. god help all of you if lebron every gets to play with another legit top 10 player in the league with some good role players and a good coach. they will destroy the league.

the sad thing is that lebron just wasted two of the best years of all time playing for a pathetic coach in mike brown and with pathetic players like mo/jamison/shaq/pavlovic/west......ferry should be ashamed.

[boozehound]

they got bounced out of the playoffs in the seminfinals (a feat no #1 seed has accomplished since Golden state beat the mavs) .
uh, fail.

[All Net]

Funny thing is the Cavs were somehow considered favourites to win it all when they got Jamison and they were heading into the playoffs yet when they lose the are considered trash team-mates. You can't have it both ways.

[ginobli2311]

The Cavs did lose to the team that nearly won the title, so it's not like it's a huge upset in retrospect. But let's not act like Lebron played great and the only reason why they lost was because his team let him down. He was sub par in 3, or all the losses depending on how much you value those rebounds and turnovers in the last game.

i agree. lebron did not have a great series. but that is the point. lebron literally has to play perfect for that group to win games against good teams. look at orlando last year and now boston this year. look at how poorly kobe played overall compared to lebron......and his team won the title against the same team.

you just can't compare the two teams at all......and you also can't compare lebron to kobe....because lebron is just so much better right now even when he is off.

[Doranku]

So basically LeBron gets all the praise for being the sole reason for the Cavs winning 60 games, but none of the criticism for losing in the ECSF.

lol

[ginobli2311]

Funny thing is the Cavs were somehow considered favourites to win it all when they got Jamison and they were heading into the playoffs yet when they lose the are considered trash team-mates. You can't have it both ways.

who called them favorites? morons in the media and the retarded talking heads on espn?

they know nothing. check my posts....i called celtics in 6 before the series and was saying for a month how over-rated the cavs are. please think for yourself....mo williams is not a good overall player. he is a decent offensive player and a terrible defender. jamison is a decent overall player....but he's older now and has always come up small in big moments and has always been a terrible defender. shaq should not be starting on a good team. west is literally crazy. parker is solid. andy is solid. mike brown is one of the worst coaches in the league.

sorry. anyone that knows the game or its history would never have picked the cavs to win.......and if they did it would have been solely because they thought that lebron was so good he could win it on his own.

[BlueandGold]

lol....your whole premise is flawed. they won 60 because lebron played at a such a high level. a much higher level than kobe has ever played at any point in his career.

sorry.....your post fails.

why not just watch and judge the actual players. if you think gasol/odom/bynum/fisher/artest is not significantly better than mo/jamison/shaq/west/andy......then you need help.

lebron's greatness is now becoming his own worst enemy because people like you don't understand the game at all.


my god about the cavs losing to the celtics. did you watch the celtics dominate the magic? did you watch them dominate the lakers? kobe looked like a boy amongst men out there for the series. the finals is perfect evidence that the supporting cast for the lakers is far far greater. end of story. kobe played like ass in every 4th qtr, played like ass overall, and played one of the worst game 7's in nba history.....and the lakers still won. LOL

lol you know someone's argument sucks and reeks of lolumad cause kobe won when the second sentence is "sorry.. your post fails."

It doesn't really work anymore ginobli, everyone has seen through your fascade and realized that half of your arguments compose of you bashing/discrediting other posters so that you look better.

Cavs won 60+ games 2 seasons in a row. There's no hiding or denying that fact, sure Lebron played great but wade/CP3/kobe/dwight/*insert superstar all put up those types of numbers and you don't see their teams winning 60+ straight. It's not like Lebron is the only person taking shots on that team or he's the one drawing up offensive/defensive rotations, making the right moves near the trade deadline or dealing with sign and trades and free agency. Danny Ferry, Mike Brown have all won GM and coach of the year, respectively.

jamison is a 20/10 guy who is a multiple all-star
williams is an all-star
shaq is a hall of famer.
west/gibson/parker could all be viable backup guards for any team in the league.

The Cavs essentially had the strongest backcourt depth in the league and their use of small ball could decimate slower, lengthier lineups.

[NewYorkUSCtrojan]

LeBron James told me personally, he's does not care for team achievement right now; NBA Championship, etcs. LBJ only cares about stats and winning MVP award.

LBJ has a plan and will be a billionaire in a few years, LBJ will buy his own NBA team at 30 years old and will bring him his first NBA title.

LeBron will be the 1st player to be: NBA Owner, NBA GM, NBA Coach, NBA Player. LBJ will do it all.

[Orlando Magic]

So basically LeBron gets all the praise for being the sole reason for the Cavs winning 60 games, but none of the criticism for losing in the ECSF.

lol

At face value it does sound ridiculous but it's true.

LeBron by himself is enough to beat most teams in the league but when you put him up against the top teams in the league the Cavs were doomed to lose every time.

It takes a deep team to beat a deep team. Most teams in the league aren't deep hence LeBron being able to steamroll most teams by himself.

But there's no way he'd beat the Magic, Lakers or Cavs in a 7 game series. And it has nothing to do with him as an individual and everything to do with his team.

Put Kobe on the Cavs and it's very likely that not only do they not win 60 games, they get a bottom seed in the East and get bounced in the first round.

[PowerGlove]

So basically LeBron gets all the praise for being the sole reason for the Cavs winning 60 games, but none of the criticism for losing in the ECSF.

lol
where did you get that? he didn't get any criticism. :roll: If you want to delete this and pretend that it didnt happen, thats cool. just let me know.

dont you remember the first page of the nba forum after he lost? criticism for weeks.

[chazzy]

You have to also acknowledge the fact that Brown didn't properly utilize the roster. There's no denying that team had talent, it was just used in the wrong way.

[ginobli2311]

So basically LeBron gets all the praise for being the sole reason for the Cavs winning 60 games, but none of the criticism for losing in the ECSF.

lol


well....actually yes. did you watch the series. did you watch mo/jamison get torched every game. did you watch lebron make pierce a non factor on both ends?

lebron did not play perfect....but he had a good overall series and the main reason he did struggle at times was because he had no help. its hilarious how people want to credit kobe for his rebounding and defense and then not look at what lebron did to pierce and how he rebounded the ball far better than kobe.

people think there is kobe hate. lol......lebron is the one that actually gets "hated" on....its just pathetic. you want him to play a perfect series with no help but kobe can play a poor series with the most help in the league and get praised left and right on here.

the fact that you clearly expect lebron to play so much better than kobe should tell you something about lebron's greatness.

[The Iron Fist]

It doesn't really work anymore ginobli, everyone has seen through your fascade and realized that half of your arguments compose of you bashing/discrediting other posters so that you look better.





This should be a sticky.

[Doranku]

When LeBron has a new coach next year and still fails to reach the Finals, hopefully you blind homers/Kobe haters will deep down realize that LEBRON is the problem, not the coaching.

Players can't play their game alongside LeBron. That was blatantly obvious with the Jamison acquistion. You all blame it on the coach for not utilizing him right, but really the problem starts and ends with LeBron. Bron reminds me of AI, he needs a perfect team of defensive role players that buy into the 'defense concept' alongside him so he can play HIS game, which is to dominate the ball offensively.

You guys think that if he teams up with a 'legit 2nd option' like Bosh, Joe Johnson, Derrick Rose, etc that they'll be a lock for a championship? You're in for a rude awakening if that's the case.

[PowerGlove]

When LeBron has a new coach next year and still fails to reach the Finals, hopefully you blind homers/Kobe haters will deep down realize that LEBRON is the problem, not the coaching.

Players can't play their game alongside LeBron. That was blatantly obvious with the Jamison acquistion. You all blame it on the coach for not utilizing him right, but really the problem starts and ends with LeBron. Bron reminds me of AI, he needs a perfect team of defensive role players that buy into the 'defense concept' alongside him so he can play HIS game, which is to dominate the ball offensively.

You guys think that if he teams up with a 'legit 2nd option' like Bosh, Joe Johnson, Derrick Rose, etc that they'll be a lock for a championship? You're in for a rude awakening if that's the case.
:sleeping

You're better than this.

[ginobli2311]

lol you know someone's argument sucks and reeks of lolumad cause kobe won when the second sentence is "sorry.. your post fails."

It doesn't really work anymore ginobli, everyone has seen through your fascade and realized that half of your arguments compose of you bashing/discrediting other posters so that you look better.

Cavs won 60+ games 2 seasons in a row. There's no hiding or denying that fact, sure Lebron played great but wade/CP3/kobe/dwight/*insert superstar all put up those types of numbers and you don't see their teams winning 60+ straight. It's not like Lebron is the only person taking shots on that team or he's the one drawing up offensive/defensive rotations, making the right moves near the trade deadline or dealing with sign and trades and free agency. Danny Ferry, Mike Brown have all won GM and coach of the year, respectively.

jamison is a 20/10 guy who is a multiple all-star
williams is an all-star
shaq is a hall of famer.
west/gibson/parker could all be viable backup guards for any team in the league.

The Cavs essentially had the strongest backcourt depth in the league and their use of small ball could decimate slower, lengthier lineups.


lol another post fail you are trying to compare lebron's level of play to howard/cp3/kobe in the regular season.....hahaahhahahahahahahahahaha.

sorry dude....you suck.

jamison is 33 and has been a terrible defender his entire career. williams is one dimensional as well. shaq is so old he should not be starting on any decent team.

why do you people not understand what wins in the NBA. again for the last ****ing time. the three most important things for winning titles:

1. Defense
2. 2 or more great players
3. coaching

the cavs had none of that. that is why the didn't win. i'll just keep picking every series right and cashing in while all you morons continue to put stock into what chris broussard says on tv. enjoy.

[The_Yearning]

LeBron James told me personally, he's does not care for team achievement right now; NBA Championship, etcs. LBJ only cares about stats and winning MVP award.

LBJ has a plan and will be a billionaire in a few years, LBJ will buy his own NBA team at 30 years old and will bring him his first NBA title.

LeBron will be the 1st player to be: NBA Owner, NBA GM, NBA Coach, NBA Player. LBJ will do it all.

Lmao, if that were truly his goals I'd support him. That's BOSS.

[Orlando Magic]

When LeBron has a new coach next year and still fails to reach the Finals, hopefully you blind homers/Kobe haters will deep down realize that LEBRON is the problem, not the coaching.

Players can't play their game alongside LeBron. That was blatantly obvious with the Jamison acquistion. You all blame it on the coach for not utilizing him right, but really the problem starts and ends with LeBron. Bron reminds me of AI, he needs a perfect team of defensive role players that buy into the 'defense concept' alongside him so he can play HIS game, which is to dominate the ball offensively.

You guys think that if he teams up with a 'legit 2nd option' like Bosh, Joe Johnson, Derrick Rose, etc that they'll be a lock for a championship? You're in for a rude awakening if that's the case.

Too bad for LeBron he can't just chuck at the rim and have Gasol bail his ass out repeatedly with put backs, lol.

[The Iron Fist]

When LeBron has a new coach next year and still fails to reach the Finals, hopefully you blind homers/Kobe haters will deep down realize that LEBRON is the problem, not the coaching.

Players can't play their game alongside LeBron. That was blatantly obvious with the Jamison acquistion. You all blame it on the coach for not utilizing him right, but really the problem starts and ends with LeBron. Bron reminds me of AI, he needs a perfect team of defensive role players that buy into the 'defense concept' alongside him so he can play HIS game, which is to dominate the ball offensively.

You guys think that if he teams up with a 'legit 2nd option' like Bosh, Joe Johnson, Derrick Rose, etc that they'll be a lock for a championship? You're in for a rude awakening if that's the case.

This is key right here. Many people don't realize that Lebron, while he has all the physical tools,

has none of the mental capabilities that will take him to the next level. Do we ever hear about this guy working on any aspects of his game?

No,

so how are the other players around him supposed to know how to play with a guy who commands the ball for 20 out of 24 seconds?



Thats why I agree, the problem starts with Lebron. He doesn't move well without the ball, has no post up game, and doesn't seem willing to shoulder the responsibility of a team in distress.

[BlueandGold]

lol another post fail you are trying to compare lebron's level of play to howard/cp3/kobe in the regular season.....hahaahhahahahahahahahahaha.

sorry dude....you suck.



wow amazing argument. No possible counter-argument for this since it's such a good argument.

[PleezeBelieve]

So 'having' to play better than an overrated Kobe Bryant is the standard with how LeBron's teammates are judged?

Great...LeBron played at the same level as an overrated checker. Whoopdi-doo.

Snow let's blame every Cav on the roster except LeBron, right?

F*ck outta here. It's not even about losing at this point, but more how he quit on his teammates and organization. There's no room for that in Greatness.

Oh that's right, Kobe has quit too, huh?

Which is my point.

[chazzy]

When LeBron has a new coach next year and still fails to reach the Finals, hopefully you blind homers/Kobe haters will deep down realize that LEBRON is the problem, not the coaching.

Players can't play their game alongside LeBron. That was blatantly obvious with the Jamison acquistion. You all blame it on the coach for not utilizing him right, but really the problem starts and ends with LeBron. Bron reminds me of AI, he needs a perfect team of defensive role players that buy into the 'defense concept' alongside him so he can play HIS game, which is to dominate the ball offensively.

You guys think that if he teams up with a 'legit 2nd option' like Bosh, Joe Johnson, Derrick Rose, etc that they'll be a lock for a championship? You're in for a rude awakening if that's the case.

We have yet to see him play for a coach who can run a legitimate offense, so we really don't know if Lebron iso is what he WANTS to do or what Brown made the team run. I personally think Wade would be better on a stacked team than Lebron would, but it's not like Lebron is incapable of being effective without the ball in his hands all the time.

[Doranku]

well....actually yes. did you watch the series. did you watch mo/jamison get torched every game. did you watch lebron make pierce a non factor on both ends?

lebron did not play perfect....but he had a good overall series and the main reason he did struggle at times was because he had no help. its hilarious how people want to credit kobe for his rebounding and defense and then not look at what lebron did to pierce and how he rebounded the ball far better than kobe.

people think there is kobe hate. lol......lebron is the one that actually gets "hated" on....its just pathetic. you want him to play a perfect series with no help but kobe can play a poor series with the most help in the league and get praised left and right on here.

the fact that you clearly expect lebron to play so much better than kobe should tell you something about lebron's greatness.

The dude GAVE UP in game 5, and you blame his teammates for that? Ridiculous.

Bron averaged a whopping 1 more rebound a game against Boston than Kobe did, that's FAR BETTER? Not to mention 8 rebounds for a 31 year old 6'6 SG playing alongside two 7 footers is much more impressive than 9 rebounds for a prime 6'8 athletic freak.

The thing is, LeBron needs to play a perfect series to win because THAT'S WHAT HIS STYLE OF PLAY DICTATES. 80% of the Cavs plays honestly start and end with LeBron. You think he'd be out there setting screens late in the 4th for Derek Fisher? You're out of your mind.

LeBron is a more athletic AI who can pass. When he retires without a ring, you guys can keep playing his supporting casts, but the fact will remain: He will be ringless.

[Doranku]

We have yet to see him play for a coach who can run a legitimate offense, so we really don't know if Lebron iso is what he WANTS to do or what Brown made the team run. I personally think Wade would be better on a stacked team than Lebron would, but it's not like Lebron is incapable of being effective without the ball in his hands all the time.

Wade is the best player in the league, so yes, he would be better on a stacked team. He's much better at deferring, has a much better midrange game than LeBron, and more importantly is a PROVEN winner who put up one of the greatest finals performances in NBA history.

Wade on a stacked team scares me much more than LeBron on a stacked team.

[PowerGlove]

Someone is showing their true colors in this thread.

He just called Lebron a more athletic AI. SMH.

[All Net]

who called them favorites? morons in the media and the retarded talking heads on espn?

they know nothing. check my posts....i called celtics in 6 before the series and was saying for a month how over-rated the cavs are. please think for yourself....mo williams is not a good overall player. he is a decent offensive player and a terrible defender. jamison is a decent overall player....but he's older now and has always come up small in big moments and has always been a terrible defender. shaq should not be starting on a good team. west is literally crazy. parker is solid. andy is solid. mike brown is one of the worst coaches in the league.

sorry. anyone that knows the game or its history would never have picked the cavs to win.......and if they did it would have been solely because they thought that lebron was so good he could win it on his own.

Yes I know you called the Cavs out for not being good enough but many called them favourites in the media and on here. MANY people stated that Cavs would win the title and beat L.A.

[Orlando Magic]

The dude GAVE UP in game 5, and you blame his teammates for that? Ridiculous.

See Kobe vs Suns...

[chopchop20]

I don't think there's any excuse for losing to Orlando last year.

[Doranku]

So 'having' to play better than an overrated Kobe Bryant is the standard with how LeBron's teammates are judged?

Great...LeBron played at the same level as an overrated checker. Whoopdi-doo.

Snow let's blame every Cav on the roster except LeBron, right?

F*ck outta here. It's not even about losing at this point, but more how he quit on his teammates and organization. There's no room for that in Greatness.

Oh that's right, Kobe has quit too, huh?

Which is my point.

Kobe quit in the second half of a game that was a lost cause with a team that had no realistic aspirations of winning a title.

LeBron quit at home with a team who, at the time, was heavily favored to AT LEAST come out of the East.

There's a bit of a difference. Not to mention Kobe more than redeemed himself by winning back to back titles/finals MVPs.

LeBron quit on his entire organization. Kobe quit to send his organization a message. Both are despicable, but in the context of things, the former is much worse.

[Doranku]

Someone is showing their true colors in this thread.

He just called Lebron a more athletic AI. SMH.

It's true, though. AI led a team with a worst supporting cast to the Finals and actually WON a game against a team who was previously unbeaten in the Playoffs. LeBron played awful in all 4 games when he was in the Finals against an inferior team to what AI faced. Maybe that was actually an insult to AI...

[coin24]

Really? hasn't this topic been thrashed to death already??:confusedshrug:

They choked hard in the playoffs. Nobody stepped up. Browns rotations were disgraceful. Lebron played like crap. End of story.

Lebron is never going to win anything while he believes he is the point guard. He dribbles around like an idiot and then tries to "get teammates involved" ie stat pad by throwing them the ball with 2 or 3 left on the shot clock...
Id love to see him in a system with a PG and a coach who wont kiss his ass all day long:bowdown:

[PleezeBelieve]

Kobe quit in the second half of a game that was a lost cause with a team that had no realistic aspirations of winning a title.

LeBron quit at home with a team who, at the time, was heavily favored to AT LEAST come out of the East.

There's a bit of a difference. Not to mention Kobe more than redeemed himself by winning back to back titles/finals MVPs.

LeBron quit on his entire organization. Kobe quit to send his organization a message. Both are despicable, but in the context of things, the former is much worse.
Quitter here, quitter there -- who cares surrounding the context?

My point is Kobe on the biggest stages has been consistently ungreat, so LeBron 'having' to play better than him isn't any sort of a quantifiable measure against his teammates. LeBron is the better player. Kobe may have the next best player between the two teams, but that's not a big enough excuse.

[Kingwillball]

Quitter here, quitter there -- who cares surrounding the context?

My point is Kobe on the biggest stages has been consistently ungreat, so LeBron 'having' to play better than him isn't any sort of a quantifiable measure against his teammates. LeBron is the better player. Kobe may have the next best player between the two teams, but that's not a big enough excuse.


No Gasol,Odom,Bynum are all better than Shaq,Jamison,Andy and Hickson and Fisher is clutcher than Mo while Artest is also better than anyone else on Cavs as a Whole.

Between 2 Teams here is the Rankings of Players

Lebron
Kobe
Gasol
Odum
Bynum
Shaq
Artest
Jamison
Andy
Fisher
Mo
Parker

So as U can see Lakers have 4 of the top 5 players between 2 teams.

[BlueandGold]

Quitter here, quitter there -- who cares surrounding the context?

My point is Kobe on the biggest stages has been consistently ungreat, so LeBron 'having' to play better than him isn't any sort of a quantifiable measure against his teammates. LeBron is the better player. Kobe may have the next best player between the two teams, but that's not a big enough excuse.

2009 Game 1 Finals - 40 points, 8 boards, 8 assits, 16/32 FG%, 8/8 FT%, 2 steals, 2 blocks

2000 game 2 Finals 31 points, 8 boards, 6 assists, 11/23FG%

2001 game 5 finals 25 points, 12 rebounds, 7/18 FG%

2001 game 4 finals 19 points, 10 rebounds, 9 assists

2002 game 4 finals 25 points, 6 rebounds, 8 assists, 2 steals, 7/16 FG%

2010 game 7 finals 26 points, 15 rebounds, MVP


Lebron James - 0 Finals wins

[All Net]

No Gasol,Odom,Bynum are all better than Shaq,Jamison,Andy and Hickson and Fisher is clutcher than Mo while Artest is also better than anyone else on Cavs as a Whole.

Between 2 Teams here is the Rankings of Players

Lebron
Kobe
Gasol
Odum
Bynum
Shaq
Artest
Jamison
Andy
Fisher
Mo
Parker

So as U can see Lakers have 4 of the top 5 players between 2 teams.

Thats not what you were singing just over a month ago.

[john_d]

just face it ... Lebron makes his teammates worst.

only player that actually got better... is MO.. and but that is because all he does is catch and shot all those last second dishes from Lebron.

Lebron doesn't wanna Win any championships, all he wants is to be rich and famous.

[artex]

just face it ... Lebron makes his teammates worst.

only player that actually got better... is MO.. and but that is because all he does is catch and shot all those last second dishes from Lebron.

Lebron doesn't wanna Win any championships, all he wants is to be rich and famous.

:ohwell:

[ginobli2311]

just face it ... Lebron makes his teammates worst.

only player that actually got better... is MO.. and but that is because all he does is catch and shot all those last second dishes from Lebron.

Lebron doesn't wanna Win any championships, all he wants is to be rich and famous.

no....completely false. the reason jamison got worse is because he was now playing on a legit team and playing meaningful games. its so easy to be a regular season star in the nba if you have talent.

how does lebron make his teammates worse? he's a great passer, he's a great rebounder, he's unselfish, he's now a great defender, and he's never thrown any of his teammates under the bus once. lol.......he's a great team player. he's not making mo willimas choke or get torched by rondo. he's not making jamison miss every big shot and get torched by kg.

lets hold kobe to the same standard. artest was a very good player last year on the rockets. according to most he was awful this year.....why? why if kobe makes his teammates so much better.

[crisoner]

Same old story during the regular season his teammates are better then come playoffs all of a sudden they suck.

:confusedshrug:

[Simple Jack]

This is key right here. Many people don't realize that Lebron, while he has all the physical tools,

has none of the mental capabilities that will take him to the next level. Do we ever hear about this guy working on any aspects of his game?

No,

so how are the other players around him supposed to know how to play with a guy who commands the ball for 20 out of 24 seconds?



Thats why I agree, the problem starts with Lebron. He doesn't move well without the ball, has no post up game, and doesn't seem willing to shoulder the responsibility of a team in distress.

Of course we do...he's been working on his jumper relentlessly the past 2 seasons.

Did he lack the mental aspects when he single handedly beat the Pistons? Had one of the greatest 4th quarters ever last year against the Magic? Against the Magic all series for that matter? What about game 7 vs Boston in 08 when he had 45. The same team that Kobe and the Lakers faced, and lost to by 39 and also allowing the biggest comeback in NBA finals history. Didn't the Celtics say that LeBron played them the hardest that year?

There's 4 other players on the court for your team. Being the best player doesn't mean you will win.

[john_d]

no....completely false. the reason jamison got worse is because he was now playing on a legit team and playing meaningful games. its so easy to be a regular season star in the nba if you have talent.

how does lebron make his teammates worse? he's a great passer, he's a great rebounder, he's unselfish, he's now a great defender, and he's never thrown any of his teammates under the bus once. lol.......he's a great team player. he's not making mo willimas choke or get torched by rondo. he's not making jamison miss every big shot and get torched by kg.

lets hold kobe to the same standard. artest was a very good player last year on the rockets. according to most he was awful this year.....why? why if kobe makes his teammates so much better.
OK whatever makes you sleep better at night, homey.
Passing with 2 seconds left on the shotclock doesn't make you a good passer, that makes you a stats padder.

your actually making an argument with artest?

that guy needed a psychiatrist for goodness sake. LOL

[ROCSteady]

lol....your whole premise is flawed. they won 60 because lebron played at a such a high level. a much higher level than kobe has ever played at any point in his career.

sorry.....your post fails.

why not just watch and judge the actual players. if you think gasol/odom/bynum/fisher/artest is not significantly better than mo/jamison/shaq/west/andy......then you need help.

lebron's greatness is now becoming his own worst enemy because people like you don't understand the game at all.


my god about the cavs losing to the celtics. did you watch the celtics dominate the magic? did you watch them dominate the lakers? kobe looked like a boy amongst men out there for the series. the finals is perfect evidence that the supporting cast for the lakers is far far greater. end of story. kobe played like ass in every 4th qtr, played like ass overall, and played one of the worst game 7's in nba history.....and the lakers still won. LOL

Don't b salty cuz the Spurs legacy is done and Kobe has 0 0 0 0 0 rings to Flunkan's 0 0 0 0

[The Iron Fist]

Of course we do...he's been working on his jumper relentlessly the past 2 seasons.

Did he lack the mental aspects when he single handedly beat the Pistons? Had one of the greatest 4th quarters ever last year against the Magic? Against the Magic all series for that matter? What about game 7 vs Boston in 08 when he had 45. The same team that Kobe and the Lakers faced, and lost to by 39 and also allowing the biggest comeback in NBA finals history. Didn't the Celtics say that LeBron played them the hardest that year?

There's 4 other players on the court for your team. Being the best player doesn't mean you will win.

yea and?

The point is,


while he has all his flashy stats and all that,

he doesn't know how to play a team game. Everything is dependent on what he does with the ball. Holding the ball until it reads :04 doesn't do much for team play. Standing in the corner or the top of the key when he doesn't have the ball doesn't do much for team play. Having no post game to build plays around doesn't do much for team play.

So, no, he doesn't have the mental capacity to play a full fledged team game. I don't care what his stats read, in the only stat that matters in the end,

he doesn't have a marker.

Lebron, is the new Shaq. More concerned about Hollywood and being a celeb, than working on his game.

[The Iron Fist]

lol at a kobe fan accusing someone of not knowing how to play a team game


Kobe was a facilitator for the first three championships.

He knew then how to play the team game quite well as he obviously reined in his own game for the sake of the team.


Kobe now, plays the game just as he did then,

with his teammates, winning titles.

[ROCSteady]

No Gasol,Odom,Bynum are all better than Shaq,Jamison,Andy and Hickson and Fisher is clutcher than Mo while Artest is also better than anyone else on Cavs as a Whole.

Between 2 Teams here is the Rankings of Players

Lebron
Kobe
Gasol
Odum
Bynum
Shaq
Artest
Jamison
Andy
Fisher
Mo
Parker

So as U can see Lakers have 4 of the top 5 players between 2 teams.

Wizards Jamison is better than both Odom and Bynum. Dude's right, LePompom's game and that horrible excuse for an NBA coach shackles player's games. Delonte West>>> any of our role bench players when he balanced en la cabeza

[BlueandGold]

no....completely false. the reason jamison got worse is because he was now playing on a legit team and playing meaningful games. its so easy to be a regular season star in the nba if you have talent.

how does lebron make his teammates worse? he's a great passer, he's a great rebounder, he's unselfish, he's now a great defender, and he's never thrown any of his teammates under the bus once. lol.......he's a great team player. he's not making mo willimas choke or get torched by rondo. he's not making jamison miss every big shot and get torched by kg.

lets hold kobe to the same standard. artest was a very good player last year on the rockets. according to most he was awful this year.....why? why if kobe makes his teammates so much better.

prior to teaming up with kobe Gasol had 0 playoff wins and had been swept twice out of the first round. Prior to teaming up with Lebron Shaq was a 4-time champion, Jamison had wins in the playoffs. Artest and Odom had both never won without kobe and now they have 2 rings.

[Phong]

http://www.chezlesgirondins.com/forum/images/smilies/Carlton-dance-2.gifEven in dancing, LeBron can't compete.

http://www.gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs/158389_o.gif

[Simple Jack]

yea and?

The point is,


while he has all his flashy stats and all that,

he doesn't know how to play a team game. Everything is dependent on what he does with the ball. Holding the ball until it reads :04 doesn't do much for team play. Standing in the corner or the top of the key when he doesn't have the ball doesn't do much for team play. Having no post game to build plays around doesn't do much for team play.

So, no, he doesn't have the mental capacity to play a full fledged team game. I don't care what his stats read, in the only stat that matters in the end,

he doesn't have a marker.

Lebron, is the new Shaq. More concerned about Hollywood and being a celeb, than working on his game.


What the hell are you talking about? Did Jordan not know how to win when he scored 63 against the Celtics? No, it's because he needed a legit team and role players that knew their role, as well as a good coach. LeBron doesn't have that, nor did he ever.

YOU DON'T JUDGE INDIVIDUALS BASED ON TEAM ACCOMPLISHMENTS.

Think about a pick-up game at a park. You can be the best player on the court but you won't win if your team doesn't play well. The fact that the other team wins doesn't make their best player better than you necessarily; what it means is that he's required to do less for his team to win because they actually play well. We've seen this time and time again. Show me where LeBron shoots 25% in 4th quarters; better yet, show me when LeBron has been 1-6 in a 4th quarter, and shot 10/29 in a game and even had a prayer of winning.

Jeeze, you guys are in some Kobe vortex where arguments FOR Kobe don't apply to anything else. Use the same standard and take it in context. LeBron was the better player ALL YEAR. He dominated on a nightly basis, while Kobe had months that were sub-par, not even for Kobe standards, but in general. You'd be hard pressed to find a bad game from LeBron this year, Kobe? Not so much.


Is KG better in 08 or 04? Simple question and I want a simple answer.

[Simple Jack]

Kobe was a facilitator for the first three championships.

He knew then how to play the team game quite well as he obviously reined in his own game for the sake of the team.


Kobe now, plays the game just as he did then,

with his teammates, winning titles.

A team game is shooting 10/29? Taking 34 shots in a game? Going 6-24 in a crucial game on terrible shot selection?

And what exactly did Kobe do in the 2000 finals that allowed them to win? He literally could have sat the whole series and they still would have. SMH at people who think LeBron could average 15 ppg on 37% shooting and still win a ring.

[ginobli2311]

What the hell are you talking about? Did Jordan not know how to win when he scored 63 against the Celtics? No, it's because he needed a legit team and role players that knew their role, as well as a good coach. LeBron doesn't have that, nor did he ever.

YOU DON'T JUDGE INDIVIDUALS BASED ON TEAM ACCOMPLISHMENTS.

Think about a pick-up game at a park. You can be the best player on the court but you won't win if your team doesn't play well. The fact that the other team wins doesn't make their best player better than you necessarily; what it means is that he's required to do less for his team to win because they actually play well. We've seen this time and time again. Show me where LeBron shoots 25% in 4th quarters; better yet, show me when LeBron has been 1-6 in a 4th quarter, and shot 10/29 in a game and even had a prayer of winning.

Jeeze, you guys are in some Kobe vortex where arguments FOR Kobe don't apply to anything else. Use the same standard and take it in context. LeBron was the better player ALL YEAR. He dominated on a nightly basis, while Kobe had months that were sub-par, not even for Kobe standards, but in general. You'd be hard pressed to find a bad game from LeBron this year, Kobe? Not so much.


Is KG better in 08 or 04? Simple question and I want a simple answer.

great post. i love when context and logic are used.

i'll ask another simple question. kobe homers only want to talk about winning rings when someone brings up lebron's superior play. but then.....why is kobe better than havlicek.

very similar career playoff numbers and hondo has 8 titles and a finals mvp while kobe has 5 titles and 2 finals mvps. who is better? and if you say kobe....i want to know why.

[The Iron Fist]

What the hell are you talking about? Did Jordan not know how to win when he scored 63 against the Celtics? No, it's because he needed a legit team and role players that knew their role, as well as a good coach. LeBron doesn't have that, nor did he ever.

YOU DON'T JUDGE INDIVIDUALS BASED ON TEAM ACCOMPLISHMENTS.

Think about a pick-up game at a park. You can be the best player on the court but you won't win if your team doesn't play well. The fact that the other team wins doesn't make their best player better than you necessarily; what it means is that he's required to do less for his team to win because they actually play well. We've seen this time and time again. Show me where LeBron shoots 25% in 4th quarters; better yet, show me when LeBron has been 1-6 in a 4th quarter, and shot 10/29 in a game and even had a prayer of winning.

Jeeze, you guys are in some Kobe vortex where arguments FOR Kobe don't apply to anything else. Use the same standard and take it in context. LeBron was the better player ALL YEAR. He dominated on a nightly basis, while Kobe had months that were sub-par, not even for Kobe standards, but in general. You'd be hard pressed to find a bad game from LeBron this year, Kobe? Not so much.


Is KG better in 08 or 04? Simple question and I want a simple answer.


I agree, so what are you crying about?


Because Lebron is getting the blame for his teams losses?

Sorry, thats what happens when you get the credit for the wins.


I don't make the rules, I just play by them.

[PowerGlove]

Even in dancing, LeBron can't compete.

http://www.gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs/158389_o.gif
:oldlol: I like that dance, whenever I'm shooting craps or playing Yahtzee, I do that.

[Simple Jack]

I agree, so what are you crying about?


Because Lebron is getting the blame for his teams losses?

Sorry, thats what happens when you get the credit for the wins.


I don't make the rules, I just play by them.

I'm not crying about anything. I'm addressing the terrible logic one uses when they bring up rings in a "whos the better current player" comparison.

I've heard numerous times "oh well where is Lebron?" or "he's on vacation" as some type of proof that Kobe is better. It's extremely flawed.

[Fatal9]

Show me where LeBron shoots 25% in 4th quarters; better yet, show me when LeBron has been 1-6 in a 4th quarter, and shot 10/29 in a game and even had a prayer of winning.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200605150CLE.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200706140CLE.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200805060BOS.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200805100CLE.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200805160CLE.html

[ginobli2311]

prior to teaming up with kobe Gasol had 0 playoff wins and had been swept twice out of the first round. Prior to teaming up with Lebron Shaq was a 4-time champion, Jamison had wins in the playoffs. Artest and Odom had both never won without kobe and now they have 2 rings.


your posts are awful. why? here we go.....

butler/odom won a playoff series with wade the year before they came to the lakers. what happened? they missed the playoffs and went 28-38 in the games kobe played. yea....but lets credit for kobe making them better.

gasol you say. what other player in the league could have won playoff games in memphis? maybe kobe/lebron/duncan/wade/kg/shaq......you know....all the greatest players in the league. stop acting like gasol was some bum in memphis.....he was putting up the same numbers and leading a team of jokers to 50 wins. but more to the point.......how many playoff series did kobe win without gasol/shaq? its the same answer as how many gasol won without kobe. such a dumb argument....but i'm sure you will come up with an excuse as to why kobe couldn't even make the playoffs or get out of the first round for a 3 year stretch in his prime. and that same excuse won't apply to gasol. so pathetic.

jamison had a win in the first round this year in the playoffs as well. LOL. in his entire career jamison has been out of the first round twice. once in 05 and this year. now.....look at jamison's teams. he played on a very good dallas team....he was the 5th option....hahahahahah....the 5th option. he played on pretty good wizards teams.....lol....first round exits every year. hahahahaha. he could not get out of the first round playing with arenas and butler......haahahahaha. he's so sorry its a joke. he's never had a good playoff moment in his career and he's played with more than enough talent to at least do something.

you know nothing about the game. you are a joke. artest took the lakers to game 7 last year in the 2nd round. he played on a 61 win team in indiana. hahaahahahaha. you know nothing moron.

please stop posting......its so pathetic.

i won't even touch the shaq comment. its beyond absurd.

[Simple Jack]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200605150CLE.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200706140CLE.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200805060BOS.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200805100CLE.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200805160CLE.html

Which game did he choke up in the 4th quarter for 1-6 shooting? The only one that applies is the Spurs/Boston game and I'm nearly positive he didn't go 1-6 in the 4th quarter in addition to playing like absolute shit the rest of the game a la Kobe.

[ginobli2311]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200605150CLE.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200706140CLE.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200805060BOS.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200805100CLE.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200805160CLE.html

i think he meant must win games. and i think he meant in the last 2 years as well. regardless...this just proves my point even more. the current cavs team and last year's team was not nearly as good as the 08 team. why? because the 07/08 cavs played great team defense. now they gave that up to get mo/jamison and guess what.....you don't win with guys like that.

those above games are further proof that you can still win when you struggle and play great defense.

[chopchop20]

If only the LeBron apologists could help the King get a Ring.... c'mon, just 1 :roll:

[justin43]

I'm not crying about anything. I'm addressing the terrible logic one uses when they bring up rings in a "whos the better current player" comparison.

I've heard numerous times "oh well where is Lebron?" or "he's on vacation" as some type of proof that Kobe is better. It's extremely flawed.

Regardless if Kobe is better or worse than Lebron, I am getting tried of the double standard.

Kobe wins championship, but has bad game 7. ISH ripes on Kobe for having a bad game and claims he didn't deserve Finals MVP when his series numbers are good.

Lebron loses twice with 60+ win teams to inferior(don't say they lost to the eventual roundup because they were favorites both years to win it all) teams and gives up in game 5, but Lebron's teammates suck. Lebron needs better teammates or his coach sucks(which I agree somewhat). Never Lebron.

For the record, I agree that the comparison made early is bad, but I think the point of the thread is that Lebron should face more accountibility for his team's failures as much as for his successes or at least it should be.

[Fatal9]

Which game did he choke up in the 4th quarter for 1-6 shooting?
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200805060BOS.html - 1/8 in the fourth game against a better version of this Celtic team and yet the game came down to the last possession.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200805120CLE.html - 2/8 in this game and yet Cavs beat a better version of this Celtic team.

That's just from one series. Newsflash: Kobe is not the only one to have teammates step up to help him. And he was the one who got them the double digit lead in the first half anyways.

[ginobli2311]

If only the LeBron apologists could help the King get a Ring.... c'mon, just 1 :roll:

if only kobe could over-achieve just one time in his career. must be killing you that a 22 year old lebron got to the finals with the worst team ever and kobe could not even make the playoffs in his prime with odom/butler. must kill you that kobe could not even beat the suns without amare with odom putting up 19 points 11 boards and 5 assists en route to dominating marion. ouch....must hurt real bad. if only kobe could play well under the big lights.......LOL....i'd love to see him have a good nba finals. 15 games shooting 35% or under out of 38. beyond bad....downright dreadful. LOL....if only.

[chopchop20]

if only kobe could over-achieve just one time in his career. must be killing you that a 22 year old lebron got to the finals with the worst team ever and kobe could not even make the playoffs in his prime with odom/butler. must kill you that kobe could not even beat the suns without amare with odom putting up 19 points 11 boards and 5 assists en route to dominating marion. ouch....must hurt real bad. if only kobe could play well under the big lights.......LOL....i'd love to see him have a good nba finals. 15 games shooting 35% or under out of 38. beyond bad....downright dreadful. LOL....if only.

Not at all... but it's obviously killing you that Kobe won ring number 5. Your endless campaign to devalue Kobe's accomplishments is evident in every post you make. Carry on with your statistical analysis, but it won't change reality.

Kobe's a champ, LeBronze is not.... :oldlol: :oldlol:

[ginobli2311]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200805060BOS.html - 1/8 in the fourth game against a better version of this Celtic team and yet the game came down to the last possession.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200805120CLE.html - 2/8 in this game and yet Cavs beat a better version of this Celtic team.

That's just from one series. Newsflash: Kobe is not the only one to have teammates step up to help him. And he was the one who got them the double digit lead in the first half anyways.

of course not. but kobe's teammates step up far more often than lebron's have over the years. but again.....the cavs in 08 were by far the best team lebron has ever had....and its not close. you keep using that series as evidence of something......of what? that series proves our point for us. lebron has not had good teams the last 2 years.....they don't play great defense anymore and they have gained nothing because mo plays bad in big moments and so does jamison.

in 08 lebron and the cavs came the closest to beating the celtics. the celtics have since admitted that the cavs were easily their toughest series. in that series lebron played poorly overall the first 4 games....but lit it up the last 3 which include and epic road game 7 performance.

also.....you are totally negating the fact that teams can focus much more attention on lebron because his teams have been so limited offensively. i really don't see how you can just ignore that when looking at stats.

[chopchop20]

of course not. but kobe's teammates step up far more often than lebron's have over the years. but again.....the cavs in 08 were by far the best team lebron has ever had....and its not close. you keep using that series as evidence of something......of what? that series proves our point for us. lebron has not had good teams the last 2 years.....they don't play great defense anymore and they have gained nothing because mo plays bad in big moments and so does jamison.

in 08 lebron and the cavs came the closest to beating the celtics. the celtics have since admitted that the cavs were easily their toughest series. in that series lebron played poorly overall the first 4 games....but lit it up the last 3 which include and epic road game 7 performance.

also.....you are totally negating the fact that teams can focus much more attention on lebron because his teams have been so limited offensively. i really don't see how you can just ignore that when looking at stats.

Should we give LeBron a cookie as a consolation prize? :roll:

Congrats on being the next to last loser in 2008, LeBron :applause: :applause:

[ginobli2311]

Not at all... but it's obviously killing you that Kobe won ring number 5. Your endless campaign to devalue Kobe's accomplishments is evident in every post you make. Carry on with your statistical analysis, but it won't change reality.

Kobe's a champ, LeBronze is not.... :oldlol: :oldlol:

you know the best part about this. the same thing was being said about jordan his first 6 years in the league. hahahahahahah. the exact same stuff.

the other funny thing is that nobody is trying to devalue anything kobe has done. i have him in the top 12 players of all time and probably at number 10 now. how is that hating. you people just don't want to listen to reason.

kobe is not better than lebron right now. using rings as your argument is proof of this. there is no other way to argue for kobe other than rings.

you can't argue efficiency, passing, rebounding, clutch play.....nothing. kobe has nothing going for him in those comparisons. so what can you do? well....you to team success to prove kobe is better. and that is inherently flawed logic.

again.....who is better ......hondo or kobe? if you say kobe....please tell me why. answer the question. man up and debate for a change. come on choco....answer the question. don't be a *****.

[Bigsmoke]

Cavaliers ate up the Eastern conference weaklings.

The Cavs actually had a better record against west teams than the Lakers have against East ones

[Bigsmoke]

Mo Will = Fisher


:confusedshrug:

haha.

Mo >>>> Fisher

The Cavs have a better bench and more players that could be damage... not saying they have better ones but more of them

[The Iron Fist]

I'm not crying about anything. I'm addressing the terrible logic one uses when they bring up rings in a "whos the better current player" comparison.

I've heard numerous times "oh well where is Lebron?" or "he's on vacation" as some type of proof that Kobe is better. It's extremely flawed.


Leading a team is a valuable asset.

Seeing as how the Cavs won the most games over the past two seasons with Lebron leading the charge,


leading a team when it matters most is what Lebron is lacking.


Thats why I say Kobe is still the better player. Even though by many peoples standards, Kobe played like schit,

he still made his teammates, "better".

Something that Lebron has been said to have done since he entered the league.

I'd also like to ask,

if judging a player based on his accomplishments and not the teams,

why do so many people base their MVP vote on "50 wins", "playoff seed"?

[ginobli2311]

still waiting.....to all kobe homers. who is better....hondo or kobe? funny how the thread dies every single time i ask this question.

[chopchop20]

you know the best part about this. the same thing was being said about jordan his first 6 years in the league. hahahahahahah. the exact same stuff.

the other funny thing is that nobody is trying to devalue anything kobe has done. i have him in the top 12 players of all time and probably at number 10 now. how is that hating. you people just don't want to listen to reason.

kobe is not better than lebron right now. using rings as your argument is proof of this. there is no other way to argue for kobe other than rings.

you can't argue efficiency, passing, rebounding, clutch play.....nothing. kobe has nothing going for him in those comparisons. so what can you do? well....you to team success to prove kobe is better. and that is inherently flawed logic.

again.....who is better ......hondo or kobe? if you say kobe....please tell me why. answer the question. man up and debate for a change. come on choco....answer the question. don't be a *****.

You can say LeBron is better, if that makes you happy.... doesn't matter at all to a Lakers fan like me. I'm sure Kobe doesn't care either, he's 5 rings :rockon:

[Fatal9]

of course not. but kobe's teammates step up far more often than lebron's have over the years.
Only games in the last two years I can recall them stepping up to win the game because of him shooting poorly are:

Game 4 last year vs. Magic, Kobe had 32/7/8 still assisted on the game winning three by Fisher (because he goes to the post to draw double teams).

Game 3 this year, and yet he was was the one who got them the big lead in the first place. Fisher stepped up in the fourth, rest of them? ehh not so much.

Game 7 this year vs. Celtics, Kobe plays like garbage but Laker defense keeps the game close. NO ONE was playing well through three quarters except maybe Artest, and Kobe stepped up in the fourth with 10 pts, bunch of rebounds and created a couple of FT opportunities for his teammates.

You could add maybe one game from the Thunder series and one game from the Rockets series (which was a blowout after like 10 minutes anyways).

What do you want from him? To win with no help everytime? I could do the same thing with some of Jordan's runs and come out with even more examples. Where were his stacked teammates bailing him out in game 5 when he had a godly second half? They couldn't even dig in on defense and cut the lead at all. Lakers aren't that special supporting cast wise with Bynum injured. Gasol is good, top 15 player, Fisher is a mediocre PG, there are NO other playmakers on the floor, no consistent shooters to stretch the floor for Kobe, and the bench routinely gets outplayed. They stepped up in game 7, with Kobe being a big part of the fourth quarter push. It wasn't like the team was shooting lights out either, they shot 33% in that game. The game was a defensive grind and was won on that end, not by his teammates bailing him out offensively.

[The Iron Fist]

still waiting.....to all kobe homers. who is better....hondo or kobe? funny how the thread dies every single time i ask this question.


No debate,

Kobe.

Get at me when Hondo has the historic achievements Kobe does,


then we can talk.

[chopchop20]

still waiting.....to all kobe homers. who is better....hondo or kobe? funny how the thread dies every single time i ask this question.

Hondo! :roll: .... and Kobe still has 5 RINGS!

Happy now?

[ginobli2311]

Leading a team is a valuable asset.

Seeing as how the Cavs won the most games over the past two seasons with Lebron leading the charge,


leading a team when it matters most is what Lebron is lacking.


Thats why I say Kobe is still the better player. Even though by many peoples standards, Kobe played like schit,

he still made his teammates, "better".

Something that Lebron has been said to have done since he entered the league.

but how did he make them better? where is the evidence? why did butler/odom suddenly get worse when they played with him? why did artest look like garbage out there a lot of times?

how does jacking up terrible shots with double teams and shooting a bad percentage and no showing 4th qtrs make your teammates better?

where is the proof? how does playing one of the worst game 7's ever make your teammates better? where are the assists when kobe is ice cold? where is the penetration? did you notice how the lakers rarely got open looks all series? hmmmmmmmmmm.....maybe because ball hog kobe was late with almost every pass and was not decisive with the ball.

learn the game. go back and watch the finals. come back and post. bye.

[ginobli2311]

No debate,

Kobe.

Get at me when Hondo has the historic achievements Kobe does,


then we can talk.

why kobe?

hondo has 8 titles and a finals mvp. hondo averaged 22 points 7 boards 5 assists for his career in the playoffs.

LOL. 8 titles to 5 and similar numbers......sorry. do better. why is kobe better?

[OnceInADECADE]

just cuz u have more wins then everyone. i remember the Boston n Cavs were tied in the season 4 the match up 2 n 2.

[I am that I am]

Re: Lebron played on 2 back to back 60+ win teams


So did Karl Malone

[ginobli2311]

Only games in the last two years I can recall them stepping up to win the game because of him shooting poorly are:

Game 4 last year vs. Magic, Kobe had 32/7/8 still assisted on the game winning three by Fisher (because he goes to the post to draw double teams).

Game 3 this year, and yet he was was the one who got them the big lead in the first place. Fisher stepped up in the fourth, rest of them? ehh not so much.

Game 7 this year vs. Celtics, Kobe plays like garbage but Laker defense keeps the game close. NO ONE was playing well through three quarters except maybe Artest, and Kobe stepped up in the fourth with 10 pts, bunch of rebounds and created a couple of FT opportunities for his teammates.

You could add maybe one game from the Thunder series and one game from the Rockets series (which was a blowout after like 10 minutes anyways).

What do you want from him? To win with no help everytime? I could do the same thing with some of Jordan's runs and come out with even more examples. Where were his stacked teammates bailing him out in game 5 when he had a godly second half? They couldn't even dig in on defense and cut the lead at all. Lakers aren't that special supporting cast wise with Bynum injured. Gasol is good, top 15 player, Fisher is a mediocre PG, there are NO other playmakers on the floor, no consistent shooters to stretch the floor for Kobe, and the bench routinely gets outplayed. They stepped up in game 7, with Kobe being a big part of the fourth quarter push. It wasn't like the team was shooting lights out either, they shot 33% in that game. The game was a defensive grind and was won on that end, not by his teammates bailing him out offensively.

i don't want anything from kobe. but if you can't admit that kobe has had far superior teams than lebron over the last 3 years then you don't know the game or its history. its that simple.

i take that back. i want kobe to play well in the finals before he's compared to the other 9 or so best players ever. and its not just about one game or even one series. kobe has shot 35% or worse in like 15 of his 38 finals games and he's still managed to win 5 titles.

are honestly not going to admit that kobe had it much easier winning titles in his first 7 years playing with shaq and a bunch of veteran role players that stepped up in big moments coached by phil jackson?

lebron's best teammate in 7 years is mo williams or big z....how can you compare the two circumstances????? and coached by mike brown.....ahahahahahahahaa.

you were probably the same guy saying that kg sucked and could never win and his teams had plenty of talent and its just excuses....then look what happened. look what kg has been able to do as an old injured shell of his former self. but.....kg was a choker in minny.....and he just randomly got ten times better in boston even though he was old and out of his prime. sound logic.

[madmax]

Hondo! :roll: .... and Kobe still has 5 RINGS!

Happy now?
and why exactly is Kome better than him? John has 8 rings and similar stats to your beloved chucker...Lebron has 0 rings and MUCH better stats than your beloved chucker. Are you gonna apply double standards now? If you are basing your arguments on team accomplishments, man up and admit that Hondo is a better player then your beloved chucker:rockon:

[ginobli2311]

and why exactly is Kome better than him? John has 8 rings and similar stats to your beloved chucker...Lebron has 0 rings and MUCH better stats than your beloved chucker. Are you gonna apply double standards now? If you are basing your arguments on team accomplishments, man up and admit that Hondo is a better player then your beloved chucker:rockon:

yep. they can't have it both ways. kome homers backed into a corner on this one. what is more important? how you actually play?....or a rings race? this should be really really interesting.

[AirJordan&Magic]

:roll: :roll: How insecure is this Ginobili guy?????

When will you ever come to the realization that not everyone views Kobe as low as you do kid?

[All Net]

I hate that we are continuing to compare these two greats over and over again and making it into who's better everytime.

Lakers have had a good team around Kobe in the past 3 years hense he was won the title twice in a row and lost in the finals the other year. It is clear Lebron has some major weaknesses he needs to improve on but still he needs a legit big guy to have a better chance. Until he does he will NEVER win a title.

[ginobli2311]

:roll: :roll: How insecure is this Ginobili guy?????

When will you ever come to the realization that not everyone views Kobe as low as you do kid?

i rank kobe in the top 12 all time. i hardly view him as low as you think. please participate in the debate or leave.

[AirJordan&Magic]

and why exactly is Kome better than him? John has 8 rings and similar stats to your beloved chucker...Lebron has 0 rings and MUCH better stats than your beloved chucker. Are you gonna apply double standards now? If you are basing your arguments on team accomplishments, man up and admit that Hondo is a better player then your beloved chucker:rockon:

Why is Hondo a better player?... You insecure clowns are buttf**king each other with your biased comments because of one man's success and it is quite sad how obsessed you guys (particularly this Ginobili kid) are with Kobe's career?

Why is Hondo better than Kobe?

[chopchop20]

and why exactly is Kome better than him? John has 8 rings and similar stats to your beloved chucker...Lebron has 0 rings and MUCH better stats than your beloved chucker. Are you gonna apply double standards now? If you are basing your arguments on team accomplishments, man up and admit that Hondo is a better player then your beloved chucker:rockon:

Where did I say that Kobe was better than Hondo, IDIOT :confusedshrug:

[AirJordan&Magic]

i rank kobe in the top 12 all time. i hardly view him as low as you think. please participate in the debate or leave.

Name the 11 players you rank over him and explain why.

[The Iron Fist]

why kobe?

hondo has 8 titles and a finals mvp. hondo averaged 22 points 7 boards 5 assists for his career in the playoffs.

LOL. 8 titles to 5 and similar numbers......sorry. do better. why is kobe better?

Do I really have to point out the numerous instances of individual achievements?

[madmax]

Why is Hondo a better player?... You insecure clowns are buttf**king each other with your biased comments because of one man's success and it is quite sad how obsessed you guys (particularly this Ginobili kid) are with Kobe's career?

Why is Hondo better than Kobe?
well, he has more rings than Kome:confusedshrug: And similar stats too...

[ginobli2311]

Why is Hondo a better player?... You insecure clowns are buttf**king each other with your biased comments because of one man's success and it is quite sad how obsessed you guys (particularly this Ginobili kid) are with Kobe's career?

Why is Hondo better than Kobe?

i know why kobe is better than hondo. but you seem to miss the entire point. the only way kome homers can say kobe is better than lebron is through rings. and hondo has 8 rings to kobe's 5 and very similar numbers in the playoffs.

so you can't have it both ways based on the kome homers idiotic logic. either hondo is better than kobe.......or you have to admit to using context and logic and more than just rings to compare players.

its that simple.

[ginobli2311]

Name the 11 players you rank over him and explain why.

that would take far too long. and i have in other posts. in my last post i had kobe at number 10. the following players were better than kobe in my opinion:

jordan/magic/russell/wilt/kareem/duncan/bird/shaq/hakeem

then i don't mind putting kobe there.

[justin43]

yep. they can't have it both ways. kome homers backed into a corner on this one. what is more important? how you actually play?....or a rings race? this should be really really interesting.

Show me John's stats when he wasn't the man then I will listen to your agruments. I want to see the stats listed if you want to use that as an agrument.

On topic:

Can everyone agree that Lebron regardless how Kobe did has some responsibility for his team failing twice in a row despite being a 60+ win team or are you going to blame his teammates only, who were great before the Boston series? I said Lebron had no excuses last year if it happens again, now that it has. . . :violin: Through I am willing to accept that Mike Brown's offensive schemes may have something to do with 60 wins and no Finals appearance.

[Indian guy]

A better coach is a given, but LeBron also needs to land on a better defensive team. Those are the 2 things that killed Cleveland the last 2 playoffs. For all the talk about their lack of talent(compared to LA), no 2nd option and poor system, they still outperformed LA offensively in their series' against Orlando and Boston(FACT). But they got KILLED defensively. Kobe has 2 championships over LeBron because he plays on the FAR better defensive team. Not because he "makes his teammates better" and LeBron's a ball hog. What garbage :oldlol:. LA's offense was SIGNIFICANTLY worse against Boston than Cleveland's, but they still won. That has everything to do with that ridiculous length and size of their's, and of course, the great pro coach in American sports history doesn't hurt either.

[chopchop20]

Why is Hondo a better player?... You insecure clowns are buttf**king each other with your biased comments because of one man's success and it is quite sad how obsessed you guys (particularly this Ginobili kid) are with Kobe's career?

Why is Hondo better than Kobe?

Yeah dude is sounding pretty g.ay right now. I mean, who in the F..k brings Hondo into the conversation just to offset the FACT that LeBron is ringless.

This guy has apparently analyzed every Kobe playoff stat ever... how sad is that.

[AirJordan&Magic]

i know why kobe is better than hondo. but you seem to miss the entire point. the only way kome homers can say kobe is better than lebron is through rings. and hondo has 8 rings to kobe's 5 and very similar numbers in the playoffs.

so you can't have it both ways based on the kome homers idiotic logic. either hondo is better than kobe.......or you have to admit to using context and logic and more than just rings to compare players.

its that simple.

Okay, I see your point and it is understandable. I just wish you wouldn't come off so bitter with your post.

I'm honestly not trying to make fun of you man, but you need to lighten up.

[chopchop20]

A better coach is a given, but LeBron also needs to land on a better defensive team. Those are the 2 things that killed Cleveland the last 2 playoffs. For all the talk about their lack of talent(compared to LA), no 2nd option and poor system, they still outperformed LA offensively in their series' against Orlando and Boston(FACT). But they got KILLED defensively. Kobe has 2 championships over LeBron because he plays on the FAR better defensive team. Not because he "makes his teammates better" and LeBron's a ball hog. What garbage :oldlol:. LA's offense was SIGNIFICANTLY worse against Boston than Cleveland's, but they still won. That has everything to do with that ridiculous length and size of their's, and of course, the great pro coach in American sports history doesn't hurt either.

Cleveland is KNOWN as a defensive team. They're at the top or leading the league in defensive categories for quite a few years recently

[All Net]

A better coach is a given, but LeBron also needs to land on a better defensive team. Those are the 2 things that killed Cleveland the last 2 playoffs. For all the talk about their lack of talent(compared to LA), no 2nd option and poor system, they still outperformed LA offensively in their series' against Orlando and Boston(FACT). But they got KILLED defensively. Kobe has 2 championships over LeBron because he plays on the FAR better defensive team. Not because he "makes his teammates better" and LeBron's a ball hog. What garbage :oldlol:. LA's offense was SIGNIFICANTLY worse against Boston than Cleveland's, but they still won. That has everything to do with that ridiculous length and size of their's, and of course, the great pro coach in American sports history doesn't hurt either.

Great post

Agreed completely. Lebron badly needs a legit big though to take the pressure off him and having a guy you can just dump the ball into and let him get you easy buckets.

[Fatal9]

A better coach is a given, but LeBron also needs to land on a better defensive team. Those are the 2 things that killed Cleveland the last 2 playoffs. For all the talk about their lack of talent(compared to LA), no 2nd option and poor system, they still outperformed LA offensively in their series' against Orlando and Boston(FACT). But they got KILLED defensively. Kobe has 2 championships over LeBron because he plays on the FAR better defensive team. Not because he "makes his teammates better" and LeBron's a ball hog. What garbage :oldlol:. LA's offense was SIGNIFICANTLY worse against Boston than Cleveland's, but they still won. That has everything to do with that ridiculous length and size of their's, and of course, the great pro coach in American sports history doesn't hurt either.
2010 Cavs defensive rating (regular season): 104.1
2010 Lakers defensive rating (regular season): 103.7

2010 Cavs defensive rating (playoffs): 106.8
2010 Lakers defensive rating (playoffs): 108.6

[All Net]

Cleveland is KNOWN as a defensive team. They're at the top or leading the league in defensive categories for quite a few years recently

They were, but they were terrible after the all-star break even before getting Jamison.

[ginobli2311]

Show me John's stats when he wasn't the man then I will listen to your agruments. I want to see the stats listed if you want to use that as an agrument.

On topic:

Can everyone agree that Lebron regardless how Kobe did has some responsibility for his team failing twice in a row despite being a 60+ win team or are you going to blame his teammates only, who were great before the Boston series? I said Lebron had no excuses last year if it happens again, now that it has. . . :violin: Through I am willing to accept that Mike Brown's offensive schemes may have something to do with 60 wins and no Finals appearance.

nobody is claiming lebron is free from blame. however....its really hard to fault him for 09.....his teammates all crumbled under the pressure and they literally had to play 1 on 5 in order to stay alive against the magic in 09

this year. lebron did not play as well as he should have in game 5 and it really hurt his team. but great teams overcome things like that. a perfect example is kobe's game 7. that is all we are trying to say. put some context in your thoughts before you bash lebron. he played a poor series against the celtics this year offensively.....but he also shut down paul pierce and did not dominate the ball and gave his teammates all the chances in the world to step up and help him out. once again....they all crumbled under the pressure. that is the sign of bad coaching and a bad team. end of story.

[chopchop20]

Call Kobe what you like, but 1 thing you'll never call him is a BUST. Which is precisely where LeBron is headed if he does not win multiple rings.

Right now... I dunno. I see the Lakers competing well for championships the next 2-3 years. I don't see Bron winning one within that time frame, unless something big happens in free agency for him.

[ginobli2311]

Call Kobe what you like, but 1 thing you'll never call him is a BUST. Which is precisely where LeBron is headed if he does not win multiple rings.

Right now... I dunno. I see the Lakers competing well for championships the next 2-3 years. I don't see Bron winning one within that time frame, unless something big happens in free agency for him.

see dude. its posts like this. why is karl malone in the top 15 players of all time on every list? is he a bust?

if lebron plays 7 more great years and doesn't win a ring he will still go down as one of the 12 best players of all time easily.

are you serious with this crap? lebron is going to be a 5 time mvp of the league before he's done. that is a far better measure of greatness than nba titles. lol.

[chopchop20]

2010 Cavs defensive rating (regular season): 104.1
2010 Lakers defensive rating (regular season): 103.7

2010 Cavs defensive rating (playoffs): 106.8
2010 Lakers defensive rating (playoffs): 108.6

Lakers rebounding is much more influential than the defense. Defense is good but the rebounding is the key to success as evidenced in the Finals and particularly in Game 7.

[branslowski]

People mixing up All-Time ranks with current player ranks..

Kobe is All-Time Greater than LeBron.

But as of players in the game right now, LeBron and Wade may be better.

I can understand someone ranking Kobe over Bron though...

[All Net]

Call Kobe what you like, but 1 thing you'll never call him is a BUST. Which is precisely where LeBron is headed if he does not win multiple rings.

Right now... I dunno. I see the Lakers competing well for championships the next 2-3 years. I don't see Bron winning one within that time frame, unless something big happens in free agency for him.

I think if Lebron continues to lose year after year and continuing to win 60+ games it will damage his rep but it all depends on what team-mates he has.

[chopchop20]

see dude. its posts like this. why is karl malone in the top 15 players of all time on every list? is he a bust?

if lebron plays 7 more great years and doesn't win a ring he will still go down as one of the 12 best players of all time easily.

are you serious with this crap? lebron is going to be a 5 time mvp of the league before he's done. that is a far better measure of greatness than nba titles. lol.

LeBron James will be a MONUMENTAL BUST if he never wins a title - just or unjust.

Karl Malone? REALLY SKIP?

Malone didn't have 1/10000000th of the hype coming into league as LeBron.
LeBron came into the league wearing #23 and annointed as the next great player in the NBA, possibly surpassing MJ as the greatest.

[chazzy]

lebron is going to be a 5 time mvp of the league before he's done. that is a far better measure of greatness than nba titles. lol.

Leading a team to a title as one of the best players in the league is the better measure IMO. And before you say "that's team oriented," MVPs unofficially require you to be on one of the best teams in the NBA as well.

[chopchop20]

People mixing up All-Time ranks with current player ranks..

Kobe is All-Time Greater than LeBron.

But as of players in the game right now, LeBron and Wade may be better.

I can understand someone ranking Kobe over Bron though...

Yeah, and I don't think any Lakers fans have a problem with that. I mean, I'll watch the sorry Heat play whenever I get a chance because D. Wade is a beast.

The problem starts when you try to twists stats around, making it look like Kobe has repeatedly failed in the playoffs when he's won 5 rings. That whole argument is idiotic when you look at what this guy has done in his career.

[madmax]

LeBron James will be a MONUMENTAL BUST if he never wins a title - just or unjust.

Karl Malone? REALLY SKIP?

Malone didn't have 1/10000000th of the hype coming into league as LeBron.
LeBron came into the league wearing #23 and annointed as the next great player in the NBA, possibly surpassing MJ as the greatest.
and you wanna argue otherwise? Dude had a GOAT level past two years in the league - his stats are WAYYY above any other player's and his impact on the game as well. What don't you get through your thick skull? That teams accomplishments DO NOT equal the individual ones?

[justin43]

A better coach is a given, but LeBron also needs to land on a better defensive team. Those are the 2 things that killed Cleveland the last 2 playoffs. For all the talk about their lack of talent(compared to LA), no 2nd option and poor system, they still outperformed LA offensively in their series' against Orlando and Boston(FACT). But they got KILLED defensively. Kobe has 2 championships over LeBron because he plays on the FAR better defensive team. Not because he "makes his teammates better" and LeBron's a ball hog. What garbage :oldlol:. LA's offense was SIGNIFICANTLY worse against Boston than Cleveland's, but they still won. That has everything to do with that ridiculous length and size of their's, and of course, the great pro coach in American sports history doesn't hurt either.

Thank you for providing good reasons instead of Kobe versus Lebron nonsense.:applause:

[ginobli2311]

Leading a team to a title as one of the best players in the league is the better measure IMO. And before you say "that's team oriented," MVPs unofficially require you to be on one of the best teams in the NBA as well.

it all depends on the circumstances IMO. the mvps lebron just won are a much better indication of his level of play than his teams performances in the playoffs the last 2 years.

do you not agree with that?

[AirJordan&Magic]

see dude. its posts like this. why is karl malone in the top 15 players of all time on every list? is he a bust?

if lebron plays 7 more great years and doesn't win a ring he will still go down as one of the 12 best players of all time easily.

are you serious with this crap? lebron is going to be a 5 time mvp of the league before he's done. that is a far better measure of greatness than nba titles. lol.

Mvp awards are the biggest measure of greatness??? Then why do you have Jerry West ranked over Moses Malone , Willis Reed, and Wes Unseld?.....

[lakerspng]

see dude. its posts like this. why is karl malone in the top 15 players of all time on every list? is he a bust?

if lebron plays 7 more great years and doesn't win a ring he will still go down as one of the 12 best players of all time easily.

are you serious with this crap? lebron is going to be a 5 time mvp of the league before he's done. that is a far better measure of greatness than nba titles. lol.

that may be the single most ridiculous thing I've ever read on this site.

Honestly. are you kidding?

I've seen you make good points and bad points, but that is simply ridiculous and I'm sure if you sat back and thought about it, you would restate it.

[branslowski]

see dude. its posts like this. why is karl malone in the top 15 players of all time on every list? is he a bust?

if lebron plays 7 more great years and doesn't win a ring he will still go down as one of the 12 best players of all time easily.

are you serious with this crap? lebron is going to be a 5 time mvp of the league before he's done. that is a far better measure of greatness than nba titles. lol.

While you do bring some solid points to the table...I still fail to understand why you underrate Rings aka WINNING so much...You act as if its unfair to compare players rings when in essense it isn't...It isn't like we are comparing a garbage bench player to LeBron and putting him over because of rings. I mean, ofcource Adam Morrison or Robert Horry isn't All-Time greater than Bron...But when looking at LEGEND type players, you have to recongnize how well they did in the area of the ONE GOAL every NBA sets out to accomplish.

But, if just putting up good stats that leads to playoff exits is that high up for you then be my guest.

Accolades
Stats
Winning
...and more should be mixed in an worth as much as the other is...Especially when a player succeeds at all of these items and more.

There's no supriise why most of the Top 10 players in everyones list has multiple titles....You play to win the game...Not just to get the stats.



And LeBron has had not only good enough players, but a good enough CORE TEAM to win a title. There's noway you can be on a back to back 60win team, have best Record in league, and then act like this team is sh!t when your best player loses with it.


Im sure the obvious LeBron homers/Kobe haters will disagree with this, but watever.

[chopchop20]

I think if Lebron continues to lose year after year and continuing to win 60+ games it will damage his rep but it all depends on what team-mates he has.

True and it's fair to give LeBron a pass up to a point because he hasn't played under one of the better coaches in NBA history. But he can't be completely absolved from criticism because he raised the bar with the team's regular season success.

And honestly, despite the coach and teammates, they should have beaten Orlando last year.

[Fatal9]

Lakers rebounding is much more influential than the defense. Defense is good but the rebounding is the key to success as evidenced in the Finals and particularly in Game 7.
Especially offensive rebounding. Gives them 5-6 more possessions on average . And then add in another 2-3 possessions because of less turnovers (because of a better run offense and not where guy dribbles for 20 seconds to collect assists).


Leading a team to a title as one of the best players in the league is the better measure IMO. And before you say "that's team oriented,"
To add to your point...list of players post merger who have led teams to multiple titles:

Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, MJ, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Hakeem, Isiah. Makes you wonder how "team oriented" winning titles really is. There is the odd team here or there ('04 Pistons, '79 Sonics etc), but you need a legit top 10 player all time if you want to be winning multiple titles. You need players with "it", who don't fear taking over games. Can't be winning with the Drexlers, Barkleys, Malones and Robinsons leading your team, no matter what their regular season stats. In the case of Kobe though, I guess he is just getting lucky over and over and over again :confusedshrug:

[chopchop20]

Mvp awards are the biggest measure of greatness??? Then why do you have Jerry West ranked over Moses Malone , Willis Reed, and Wes Unseld?.....

If Championships don't matter, Jerry West is Top 3-5. He put up some of the most spectacular stats you ever wanna see, as well as other players who didn't win

[madmax]

True and it's fair to give LeBron a pass up to a point because he hasn't played under one of the better coaches in NBA history. But he can't be completely absolved from criticism because he raised the bar with the team's regular season success.

And honestly, despite the coach and teammates, they should have beaten Orlando last year.
no they shouldn't LOL Did you watch the same series that everyone did? Cavs were literally SCRAMBLING all over the place on defense because of all damn matchup issues they had...I mean they had midget West defending Turk and Lewis, who were shooting right over him:hammerhead: It didn't matter what numbers Lebron was putting up - that team didn't have the personnel to overcome Magic

[ginobli2311]

Mvp awards are the biggest measure of greatness??? Then why do you have Jerry West ranked over Moses Malone , Willis Reed, and Wes Unseld?.....

where did i say they are the biggest? never said that. i simply said that whether lebron wins a title or not if he plays 7 more great years and wins a few more mvps he will at worst go down as the 12th best player. i rank players on a combination of everything.....with the biggest factor being how the player actually played the game. right now if you told me that lebron will stay with the cavs.....never get much more help.....but play another great 7 years and win 3 more mvps then i would have lebron in the top 12 all time.

i'm not going to diminish his greatness because the best players he's played with are mo williams, big z, and an old jamison. no team in the history of the league has won with that kind of crap except for the 94/95 rockets....hence just one of many reasons i have hakeem so high on my list.

when ranking players you have to judge how they played the game first. then you have to try to determine how well they did with their given circumstances. for lebron.....he's done very very well IMO. an nba finals appearance with easily the worst team ever. never losing in the first round. consistently great play with many clutch plays and clutch moments. and he's done all this with a poor coach and a sub par supporting cast compared to the championship teams every year.

put it this way. if lebron gets to play with bosh over the next 7 years and doesn't win. i will be on here saying some harsh things about him. but you have to give him a legit chance to win a title. there is no perfect player. mj needed pippen. magic needed kareem. shaq needed kobe.....and so on and so on. hakeem and duncan to some extent are the exceptions.....but even they had more than lebron has had.

[chopchop20]

and you wanna argue otherwise? Dude had a GOAT level past two years in the league - his stats are WAYYY above any other player's and his impact on the game as well. What don't you get through your thick skull? That teams accomplishments DO NOT equal the individual ones?

What you don't get is that this guy is one of the most hyped, most marketed players in NBA History. Anything less than multiple championships will absolutely be a BUST

[ginobli2311]

Especially offensive rebounding. Gives them 5-6 more possessions on average . And then add in another 2-3 possessions because of less turnovers (because of a better run offense and not where guy dribbles for 20 seconds to collect assists).


To add to your point...list of players post merger who have led teams to multiple titles:

Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, MJ, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Hakeem, Isiah. Makes you wonder how "team oriented" winning titles really is. There is the odd team here or there ('04 Pistons, '79 Sonics etc), but you need a legit top 10 player all time if you want to be winning multiple titles. You need players with "it", who don't fear taking over games. Can't be winning with the Drexlers, Barkleys, Malones and Robinsons leading your team, no matter what their regular season stats. In the case of Kobe though, I guess he is just getting lucky over and over and over again :confusedshrug:

you are simply ignoring the other players on those teams. kobe/shaq, pippen/jordan, magic/kareem, isiah and the bad boys, duncan/manu/parker, kobe/gasol, kg/pierce/allen. hakeem is the one true exception....he really did what no other player ever really has. duncan is next....he's had talent....but not nearly as much as the others on the list. another reason why duncan remains so under-rated.

maybe i'm way off.......but i just don't see lebron/mo/jamison or lebron/mo/andy as groups that belong on that list. sorry......i just don't think its close.....and when you factor in the coaching importance that you conveniently left out your post holds even less water.

[chopchop20]

Especially offensive rebounding. Gives them 5-6 more possessions on average . And then add in another 2-3 possessions because of less turnovers (because of a better run offense and not where guy dribbles for 20 seconds to collect assists).

Exactly... Lakers are a precise offense, they read defenses well.

[chopchop20]

[/B]

you are simply ignoring the other players on those teams. kobe/shaq, pippen/jordan, magic/kareem, isiah and the bad boys, duncan/manu/parker, kobe/gasol, kg/pierce/allen. hakeem is the one true exception....he really did what no other player ever really has. duncan is next....he's had talent....but not nearly as much as the others on the list. another reason why duncan remains so under-rated.

maybe i'm way off.......but i just don't see lebron/mo/jamison or lebron/mo/andy as groups that belong on that list. sorry......i just don't think its close.....and when you factor in the coaching importance that you conveniently left out your post holds even less water.

But how do they lead the league in wins, consecutive years if they are so horrible :confusedshrug:

[ginobli2311]

But how do they lead the league in wins, consecutive years if they are so horrible :confusedshrug:

a couple of reasons.

1. if you come to play every night in the regular season you can have a lot of success just by focusing and playing hard night in night out

2. they have good overall players that can thrive in the "regular season atmosphere" where the intensity level....especially on defense is rarely the same as it is in the playoffs

3. its not do or die.....many players shy away from big moments. mo williams and jamison have not played well historically in big games or big moments

4. coaching is not nearly as important of a factor in the regular season as it is in a playoff series with adjustments and attention to detail.....and how you manage minutes and rotations

5. and the most important factor is that i truly believe lebron has played the game at an extraordinary level these last 2 years and he's just been so good that only a small percentage of the teams in the league have a prayer of even slowing him down.

those are the main reasons i can think of.

[Fatal9]

But how do they lead the league in wins, consecutive years if they are so horrible :confusedshrug:
All year we heard how Lebron finally had a legit team and how deep the Cavs were. Mo Will and Jamison (career 20/10 guy) as secondary and tertiary scorers give you more production than Gasol and injured Bynum (who averages like 8 ppg). They had one of the best benches in the league, Delonte, Varejao, Z, Moon etc. An above average center in Shaq. Cavs fans were all "no excuses" if we don't win this year after the trade.

Maybe he should have spent less time clowning and more on getting the team focused? Maybe he should have showed his team he gave a damn in the series and they would have gone harder for him?

[ginobli2311]

All year we heard how Lebron finally had a legit team and how deep the Cavs were. Mo Will and Jamison (career 20/10 guy) as secondary and tertiary scorers give you more production than Gasol and injured Bynum (who averages like 8 ppg). They had one of the best benches in the league, Delonte, Varejao, Z, Moon etc. An above average center in Shaq. Cavs fans were all "no excuses" if we don't win this year after the trade.

Maybe he should have spent less time clowning and more on getting the team focused? Maybe he should have showed his team he gave a damn in the series and they would have gone harder for him?

ok....i agree with what you say. that was the mentality of fans. but that does not change what happened. did you watch the cavs v boston series?

mo got torched and came up small offensively again. jamison got torched so bad they could not even play him. nobody is saying that lebron does not deserve some heat. he does. game 5 was a joke on many different levels. but honestly i'm not going to hammer him when he's played so well in every other playoff series of his career.

the cavs lost that series because mo/jamison could not do anything on either end. yea lebron had a couple bad games....but he also made pierce a non factor as well.

again...nobody is saying lebron gets a pass.....but his coach and teammates are much more to blame. and that should be obvious to anyone that watched the series.

just because the morons on tv and cavs fans were high and mighty does not make it reality. again....go read my posts. i told everyone why and how they would lose.....and i was dead on.

[Twiens]

Two Months Ago:

Shaq-Jamison-Lebron-Parker-Mo

Best team in the NBA, guaranteed title, Lebron GOAT!!!!


Two Months Later:

Cavs suck, worst supporting cast in the league

:oldlol:

[chopchop20]

Two Months Ago:

Shaq-Jamison-Lebron-Parker-Mo

Best team in the NBA, guaranteed title, Lebron GOAT!!!!


Two Months Later:

Cavs suck, worst supporting cast in the league

:oldlol:

When Cleveland wins, it's all about LeBron
When Cleveland loses, it's all about the Team

Guess it should be LeBron James & the Pips instead of Cleveland Cavs

[ginobli2311]

Two Months Ago:

Shaq-Jamison-Lebron-Parker-Mo

Best team in the NBA, guaranteed title, Lebron GOAT!!!!


Two Months Later:

Cavs suck, worst supporting cast in the league

:oldlol:

ok....now i get it. you people are hating more on fans and refusing to discuss the actual games. i can agree with that. i'm not a cavs fan at all.....hell.....i don't even really like lebron much either. i think he's a great player but he's not even close to one of my favorites.

but i agree. cavs fans were retarded to think that they had enough to beat the celtics/magic/lakers. i wasn't on the boards back then so i honestly don't know how annoying they were.

i will remind the laker fans out there that in the nba finals there were numerous threads killing artest and gasol and odom. keep that in mind before you jump all over a fan base for living too much in the moment.

[ginobli2311]

When Cleveland wins, it's all about LeBron
When Cleveland loses, it's all about the Team

but it would not be that way if he played with a legit team or at least on other great player. or at least a decent coach.

if you can't see the difference its absurd.

[All Net]

but it would not be that way if he played with a legit team or at least on other great player. or at least a decent coach.

if you can't see the difference its absurd.

You are completely right but facts remain even with that cast the Cavs were given alot of hype and the cast was said to be good enough but when they lose they suck. Surely you must see that the way people overrated their cast is why certain fans are annoyed when people say that Lebron had a terrible team?

[ginobli2311]

You are completely right but facts remain even with that cast the Cavs were given alot of hype and the cast was said to be good enough but when they lose they suck. Surely you must see that the way people overrated their cast is why certain fans are annoyed when people say that Lebron had a terrible team?

of course. like i said.....i was not on these boards at the time. but then take that out on the fans....not on lebron.

its easy for me to say because i knew the cavs would lose to the celtis. i put as much money as possible on boston before the series and throughout the series. i put a lot of time into betting on the nba and i am usually very good at it....and trust me....coming from someone that does it for a living at times. the celtics were close to a lock before that series.

[All Net]

of course. like i said.....i was not on these boards at the time. but then take that out on the fans....not on lebron.

its easy for me to say because i knew the cavs would lose to the celtis. i put as much money as possible on boston before the series and throughout the series. i put a lot of time into betting on the nba and i am usually very good at it....and trust me....coming from someone that does it for a living at times. the celtics were close to a lock before that series.

Thats the way it is though. the stars always get the blame. The blame is always put on the leader and star of the team. I hope for Lebron's sake he chooses wisely this summer. If he decides to return to Cleveland what happened this year will continue to happen.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

the simple truth is that the Cavs were projected, by every pundit, to advance to the Finals....

Why? Because they have a great team. Loaded with recent and former All-Stars. Strong depth. Outstanding defense.

Should Lebron be held to blame for the failure...again... or should his teammates be blamed? Answer: both.

With that said, it is unfair to Boston to suggest that Cavs failed without giving due props to the Celtics.

[amfirst]

LeBron had a good team, he just didn't know how to use him due to lack of experiance.

Jamison use to always dominate Odom, then he went to the Cavs and look like cr2p. Who ever goes to Cleveland falls into a black hole. Gee I wonder why? Too much ball handling from LeBron, makes it easy to defend the team. All u have to do is break down LeBron favorette moves and passes and you can easily stop them.

[amfirst]

I hope he plays with Wade. That would be 2 of the top 3 players in the NBA, that way we don't have to hear a excuss when they lose.

[macpierce]

if kobe wins another championship next year and this debate keeps going on, damn ISH is going down the shit hole
EDIT: it's already there

[Fatal9]

Cavs lost because Lebron didn't give a phuck, I don't know how people can't realize this.

In game 4:

He had 22 pts on 7/19 (38%) and 7 turnovers. Didn't care at all in the fourth quarter while the game was there for him to take on a silver platter. Rest of the starters gave him 54 points on 46% (that's more offensive help than Kobe got from his starters in most of the finals games).

In game 5:

He was just 3/14 for 15 points and didn't care at all again. Wouldn't even look at the basket, just content to pass and swing the ball. Can't remember a single aggressive move from him all game. This was on his own home court too, which tells you how shameless the performance was. If I remember correctly, he didn't make a single shot in the first half. Rest of the starters gave him 53 points on 50% (great production). When your leader isn't even trying from the moment the game begins, you expect the rest of the team to go hard?

In game 6:

I'll blame him less because at least he seemed to be trying (well at least till the last minute or so when he seemed to give up again). But again 8/21, 9 turnovers, empty stats.

You can't have three games in row like that where you average a pathetic 21 ppg on 33.3% and an outrageous 6.3 turnovers/game, while providing no leadership or effort. LOL @ the revisionist history going on here. This series was on Lebron, even all the media pundits who built him up all season were shocked by not only his play but how little he cared.

[macpierce]

Cavs lost because Lebron didn't give a phuck, I don't know how people can't realize this.

In game 4:

He had 22 pts on 7/19 (38%) and 7 turnovers. Didn't care at all in the fourth quarter while the game was there for him to take on a silver platter. Rest of the starters gave him 54 points on 46% (that's more offensive help than Kobe got from his starters in most of the finals games).

In game 5:

He was just 3/14 for 15 points and didn't care at all again. Wouldn't even look at the basket, just content to pass and swing the ball. Can't remember a single aggressive move from him all game. This was on his own home court too, which tells you how shameless the performance was. If I remember correctly, he didn't make a single shot in the first half. Rest of the starters gave him 53 points on 50% (great production). When your leader isn't even trying from the moment the game begins, you expect the rest of the team to go hard?

In game 6:

I'll blame him less because at least he seemed to be trying (well at least till the last minute or so when he seemed to give up again). But again 8/21, 9 turnovers, empty stats.

You can't have three games in row like that where you average a pathetic 21 ppg on 33.3% and an outrageous 6.3 turnovers/game, while providing no leadership or effort. LOL @ the revisionist history going on here. This series was on Lebron, even all the media pundits who built him up all season were shocked by not only his play but how little he cared.
some people argued lebron was more excited about the upcoming offseason lebron sweepstakes than this series with the celtics.

[chopchop20]

Cavs lost because Lebron didn't give a phuck, I don't know how people can't realize this.

In game 4:

He had 22 pts on 7/19 (38%) and 7 turnovers. Didn't care at all in the fourth quarter while the game was there for him to take on a silver platter. Rest of the starters gave him 54 points on 46% (that's more offensive help than Kobe got from his starters in most of the finals games).

In game 5:

He was just 3/14 for 15 points and didn't care at all again. Wouldn't even look at the basket, just content to pass and swing the ball. Can't remember a single aggressive move from him all game. This was on his own home court too, which tells you how shameless the performance was. If I remember correctly, he didn't make a single shot in the first half. Rest of the starters gave him 53 points on 50% (great production). When your leader isn't even trying from the moment the game begins, you expect the rest of the team to go hard?

In game 6:

I'll blame him less because at least he seemed to be trying (well at least till the last minute or so when he seemed to give up again). But again 8/21, 9 turnovers, empty stats.

You can't have three games in row like that where you average a pathetic 21 ppg on 33.3% and an outrageous 6.3 turnovers/game, while providing no leadership or effort. LOL @ the revisionist history going on here. This series was on Lebron, even all the media pundits who built him up all season were shocked by not only his play but how little he cared.

I'm with you on that, but the main point I want to make is regardless of the stats, Rajon Rondo was the BEST player on the court that series.

Whether his teammates choked or not, LeBron should never get upstaged by Rondo

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Cavs lost because Lebron didn't give a phuck, I don't know how people can't realize this.

In game 4:

He had 22 pts on 7/19 (38%) and 7 turnovers. Didn't care at all in the fourth quarter while the game was there for him to take on a silver platter. Rest of the starters gave him 54 points on 46% (that's more offensive help than Kobe got from his starters in most of the finals games).

In game 5:

He was just 3/14 for 15 points and didn't care at all again. Wouldn't even look at the basket, just content to pass and swing the ball. Can't remember a single aggressive move from him all game. This was on his own home court too, which tells you how shameless the performance was. If I remember correctly, he didn't make a single shot in the first half. Rest of the starters gave him 53 points on 50% (great production). When your leader isn't even trying from the moment the game begins, you expect the rest of the team to go hard?

In game 6:

I'll blame him less because at least he seemed to be trying (well at least till the last minute or so when he seemed to give up again). But again 8/21, 9 turnovers, empty stats.

You can't have three games in row like that where you average a pathetic 21 ppg on 33.3% and an outrageous 6.3 turnovers/game, while providing no leadership or effort. LOL @ the revisionist history going on here. This series was on Lebron, even all the media pundits who built him up all season were shocked by not only his play but how little he cared.

that performance was SO pathetic, so out-of-character, that I have to believe that something was going on behind the scenes... like someone banging his mom.

[chopchop20]

LeBron had a good team, he just didn't know how to use him due to lack of experiance.

Jamison use to always dominate Odom, then he went to the Cavs and look like cr2p. Who ever goes to Cleveland falls into a black hole. Gee I wonder why? Too much ball handling from LeBron, makes it easy to defend the team. All u have to do is break down LeBron favorette moves and passes and you can easily stop them.

That offense will be much better if/when LeBron develops a strong enough game to attack from every angle on the court. The 1 - 4 spread or 1 -5 pick-n-roll from the top of the key is not enough.

[Fatal9]

He was horrible save for one quarter in the last 4 games of that Magic series too. Using an absurd amount of possessions to get his points (got gifted tons of FTs too), and blew that one game when he had 7 turnovers in a 8 minute stretch in the 4th and OT. He actually had the worst 40+ pt game efficiency wise in NBA playoff history in that series. And then was a complete no show in the elimination game 6. We all know how he did against the Celtics in '08 and Spurs in '07. THIS is why people have trouble putting Lebron over Wade and Kobe.

[justin43]

Cavs lost because Lebron didn't give a phuck, I don't know how people can't realize this.

In game 4:

He had 22 pts on 7/19 (38%) and 7 turnovers. Didn't care at all in the fourth quarter while the game was there for him to take on a silver platter. Rest of the starters gave him 54 points on 46% (that's more offensive help than Kobe got from his starters in most of the finals games).

In game 5:

He was just 3/14 for 15 points and didn't care at all again. Wouldn't even look at the basket, just content to pass and swing the ball. Can't remember a single aggressive move from him all game. This was on his own home court too, which tells you how shameless the performance was. If I remember correctly, he didn't make a single shot in the first half. Rest of the starters gave him 53 points on 50% (great production). When your leader isn't even trying from the moment the game begins, you expect the rest of the team to go hard?

In game 6:

I'll blame him less because at least he seemed to be trying (well at least till the last minute or so when he seemed to give up again). But again 8/21, 9 turnovers, empty stats.

You can't have three games in row like that where you average a pathetic 21 ppg on 33.3% and an outrageous 6.3 turnovers/game, while providing no leadership or effort. LOL @ the revisionist history going on here. This series was on Lebron, even all the media pundits who built him up all season were shocked by not only his play but how little he cared.

Wow. Can someone counter the ownage that just occurred? Great post.:applause:

[ginobli2311]

Cavs lost because Lebron didn't give a phuck, I don't know how people can't realize this.

In game 4:

He had 22 pts on 7/19 (38%) and 7 turnovers. Didn't care at all in the fourth quarter while the game was there for him to take on a silver platter. Rest of the starters gave him 54 points on 46% (that's more offensive help than Kobe got from his starters in most of the finals games).

In game 5:

He was just 3/14 for 15 points and didn't care at all again. Wouldn't even look at the basket, just content to pass and swing the ball. Can't remember a single aggressive move from him all game. This was on his own home court too, which tells you how shameless the performance was. If I remember correctly, he didn't make a single shot in the first half. Rest of the starters gave him 53 points on 50% (great production). When your leader isn't even trying from the moment the game begins, you expect the rest of the team to go hard?

In game 6:

I'll blame him less because at least he seemed to be trying (well at least till the last minute or so when he seemed to give up again). But again 8/21, 9 turnovers, empty stats.

You can't have three games in row like that where you average a pathetic 21 ppg on 33.3% and an outrageous 6.3 turnovers/game, while providing no leadership or effort. LOL @ the revisionist history going on here. This series was on Lebron, even all the media pundits who built him up all season were shocked by not only his play but how little he cared.

again....you show the double standard. 15 rebounds for kobe and he is god. 19 rebounds for lebron and he is a joke. you bring up turnovers yet you fail to mention hs assist to turnover ratio destroys kobe's. why are lebron's stats empty? lol. they would not be empty if the cavs had won right......and the inherent flaw is shown again. winning is dependent on teams.......so lebron could have literally played the exact same series with better teamates (like kobe.....even though kobe played much worse overall) and won and everyone on here would be praising his all around game with 7 assists and 9 boards.

its just such a double standard. do you guys read what you post?

lebron was more efficient from the field. was far more decisive with the ball. had a much much much better assists to turnover ratio. rebounded the ball better. and he did all that while playing with much less help and playing one of his worst games ever in game 5. just sweep it all under the rug........


there is also an enormous difference between being off (like lebron was the last 3 games) and playing selfishly and taking terrible shots outside and refusing to run the offense (like kobe did throughout the finals). i'd much rather a player just play poorly rather than a player hijack the team and start chucking left and right because he feels like it.

[chazzy]

You can't have three games in row like that where you average a pathetic 21 ppg on 33.3% and an outrageous 6.3 turnovers/game, while providing no leadership or effort.

It's kind of like last year, where people look at his series averages and deduce he had a dominating series and no one else showed up. Last year, he had a monster game 1 and 2, and then shot 42% the rest of the series with over 4 TOs a game. It was "dominating" in that he had to dominate the ball in that offense and do everything for that team, but wasn't the way people make it out to be.

[dyna]

So basically LeBron gets all the praise for being the sole reason for the Cavs winning 60 games, but none of the criticism for losing in the ECSF.
lol

Yes. just like the Kobe fans argument on the Gasol is too soft to play Garnette vs Boston in 2008 finals..

[ginobli2311]

insecure about kobe being good? Cause I didn't see Kobe's name once in that post =)

actually no. its a frame of reference. kobe just got done playing the exact same team and he is being praised left and right on here for his play. its a perfect comparison.

again. why are lebron's stats empty? only because you say so. why talk about turnovers when his assists to turnover ratio was actually good.....which is even more impressive considering the rest of his team completely no showed again in the playoffs.

i think its a fair question to ask....why are kobe's 15 boards against the same team "great" and why are lebron's 19 boards "empty". it does not make sense.

[ginobli2311]

It's kind of like last year, where people look at his series averages and deduce he had a dominating series and no one else showed up. Last year, he had a monster game 1 and 2, and then shot 42% the rest of the series with over 4 TOs a game. It was "dominating" in that he had to dominate the ball in that offense and do everything for that team, but wasn't the way people make it out to be.

come on chazzy......don't try to diminish that series for lebron. its was great.

[justin43]

Yes. just like the Kobe fans argument on the Gasol is too soft to play Garnette vs Boston in 2008 finals..

I am very sure that Kobe received a lot of criticism for his performance in the 2008 Finals to the point that if the Lakers didn't beat the Celtics this year people would claim that Kobe's legacy would forever be destroyed.

Lebron puts up stats, but stats doesn't tell the whole story. That is why the game is played. Lebron had a good series, but it is over-grossed to the point that some can't see fault in his game. That is how players get overrated. It is the same for Kobe's performances.

[chazzy]

he had 3 40 point games that series and 2 30 point ones one being a 30 point triple double and the other he hit a game winner.But yeah he sucked that series:lol

Did I say he sucked? He just wasn't a superhero like people say he was. He used a ton of possessions to get those numbers, and wasn't very efficient after the first 2 games

FGA FTA
30 10
23 12
28 24
29 18
24 19

By no means did he "suck," but people act like he was infallible in that series. Stick to ":applause: "ing for other posts instead of putting words in my mouth.

[Micku]

The Cavs choked. Coaching staff and players.

[Doranku]

lol @ Fatal9 ROASTING posters left and right.

You want to know why LeBron's stats were empty and Kobe's weren't? Watch the ****ing games. Kobe was pulling down rebounds in traffic late in the game where every possession was CRUCIAL. LeBron was skying for rebounds over teammates who already had them secured.

There's a difference. Watch the games.

Oh, and in game 7 when LA pulled away, look who's handprints were ALL OVER IT.

05:56
[LAL 65-64] Bryant Free Throw 1 of 2 (17 PTS)
05:56
[LAL 66-64] Bryant Free Throw 2 of 2 (18 PTS)
05:36 Bryant Rebound (Off:4 Def:9)
05:22
[LAL 68-64] Bryant Fade Away Jumper Shot: Made (20 PTS)
05:00 Bryant Rebound (Off:4 Def:10)
[LAL 69-64] Gasol Free Throw 1 of 2 (13 PTS)
04:38
[LAL 70-64] Gasol Free Throw 2 of 2 (14 PTS)
04:16 Bryant Rebound (Off:4 Def:11)

[gts]

after the jamison trade on ish, just a small sample


Ferry smokescreen us all. What a GM. Jamison for the 30th pick???

:oldlol:

Championship favorites. This is the Cavs year.

So is this a sure thing now? Jamison is officially on the Cavs?

If so, damn that's a good team. Lakers vs. Cavs is going to be so exciting.


The Cavs made off like bandits :oldlol:

Congrats to Lebron on MVP (and scoring title?) # 2, and championship (and finals MVP) #1 :applause:

Originally Posted by Mamba
if Z gets bought out, then its over, this team will be completely stacked, the second unit alone is fkn scary, telfair jawad williams jamario moon hickson and Z, very young team cept for Z. im just worried now that the cavs are too stacked, if anyone understands that.

Once the Cavs get Jamison going they will be a tough team to stop. He really opens the floor up for Shaq and lebron. I would say they are on par with the Lakers.

Your 2010 NBA Champions, the Cleveland Cavaliers! :rockon:

With Jamison on board, the Cavs have the best roster in the East, and they should win the championship.

Plus, LBJ now has the second player he needs in AJ, and the other guys can now play their proper roles of being 3rd, 4th or 5th options.

Getting Jamison may even help the Cavs keep Shaq next year, at a reduced rate.

[ginobli2311]

lol @ Fatal9 ROASTING posters left and right.

You want to know why LeBron's stats were empty and Kobe's weren't? Watch the ****ing games. Kobe was pulling down rebounds in traffic late in the game where every possession was CRUCIAL. LeBron was skying for rebounds over teammates who already had them secured.

There's a difference. Watch the games.

lol....now we are resorting to saying that kobe's rebounds are better than lebron's. i'm off the boards for good guys. i can't debate with people that are going to claim a 15 rebound game is better than a 19 rebound game against the same team.

enjoy the offseason.

[Doranku]

lol....now we are resorting to saying that kobe's rebounds are better than lebron's. i'm off the boards for good guys. i can't debate with people that are going to claim a 15 rebound game is better than a 19 rebound game against the same team.

enjoy the offseason.

While you're gone, try watching those two games and maybe you'll understand. :lol

[chopchop20]

again....you show the double standard. 15 rebounds for kobe and he is god. 19 rebounds for lebron and he is a joke. you bring up turnovers yet you fail to mention hs assist to turnover ratio destroys kobe's. why are lebron's stats empty? lol. they would not be empty if the cavs had won right......and the inherent flaw is shown again. winning is dependent on teams.......so lebron could have literally played the exact same series with better teamates (like kobe.....even though kobe played much worse overall) and won and everyone on here would be praising his all around game with 7 assists and 9 boards.

its just such a double standard. do you guys read what you post?

lebron was more efficient from the field. was far more decisive with the ball. had a much much much better assists to turnover ratio. rebounded the ball better. and he did all that while playing with much less help and playing one of his worst games ever in game 5. just sweep it all under the rug........


there is also an enormous difference between being off (like lebron was the last 3 games) and playing selfishly and taking terrible shots outside and refusing to run the offense (like kobe did throughout the finals). i'd much rather a player just play poorly rather than a player hijack the team and start chucking left and right because he feels like it.

Again... you mix your mark by overly salivating on numbers. LeBron got outplayed by Rondo that whole series, dude damn near averaged a triple double. How can the king get outplayed by a pauper? :oldlol: He need to step up and take that challenge stronger.

Rondo had nowhere that kind of impact against LA.

[Fatal9]

Kobe boxes out Rondo, Davis and KG. Lebron boxes out Shaq, Varejao and Jamison.

For all of Lebron's superiority on the boards, Kobe in the last three games of the Celtic series grabbed just as many offensive rebounds (you know, the rebounds you actually have to fight for) as Lebron did ALL series. Lebron's offensive rebounding rate compared to his overall rebounding is actually quite pathetic. Injury-riddled Kobe averaged just 5 boards a game this season and still managed to grab more offensive rebounds than him (and has same rate over their entire careers). This is one of the reasons I will never accept that Lebron is as great a rebounder as MJ or Bird or even a prime, athletic Kobe.

[Doranku]

Kobe boxes out Rondo, Davis and KG. Lebron boxes out Shaq, Varejao and Jamison.

For all of Lebron's superiority on the boards, Kobe in the last three games of the Celtic series grabbed just as many offensive rebounds (you know, the rebounds you actually have to fight for) as Lebron did ALL series. Lebron's offensive rebounding rate compared to his overall rebounding is actually quite pathetic. Injury-riddled Kobe averaged just 5 boards a game this season and still managed to grab more offensive rebounds than him (and has same rate over their entire careers). This is one of the reasons I will never accept that Lebron is as great a rebounder as MJ or Bird or even a prime, athletic Kobe.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

:applause:

[PowerGlove]

Laker/Kobe fans just lose their mind when it comes to Lebron.


SMH.

[All Net]

Laker/Kobe fans just lose their mind when it comes to Lebron.


SMH.

Laker fans could care less about Lebron, he isn't even giving L.A fans any reasons to expect a rivarly. Could less about him in terms of team success. Love watching him play though.

[PowerGlove]

Laker fans could care less about Lebron, he isn't even giving L.A fans any reasons to expect a rivarly. Could less about him in terms of team success. Love watching him play though.
When they are trying to cheapen every statistical advantage he has over Kobe, I would say they care.

[I am that I am]

When they are trying to cheapen every statistical advantage he has over Kobe, I would say they care.
When it comes to statistics and Kobe vs Lebron, the only stat that matters is rings.

[PowerGlove]

When it comes to statistics and Kobe vs Lebron, the only stat that matters is rings.

:ohwell:

Sure.:oldlol:

[I am that I am]

:ohwell:

Sure.:oldlol:
There are many players in NBA history with better statistics than Kobe-numbers are just numbers. That doesn't mean that these players are better than Kobe, they couldnt get it done when it mattered or only had one title in their career.

As of now and probably when he retires too, Lebron is just another one of these pretenders

[All Net]

When they are trying to cheapen every statistical advantage he has over Kobe, I would say they care.

Most real fans could care less about comparing them, all L.A fans should care about is the championships. Judging by alot of the posts in here many aren't trying to playdown Lebron and his stats but more his mind set and focus. His team-mates aren't the greatest when they lose but when they win it is the perfect cast. Can't have it both ways.

[tpols]

I don't understand why anyone gets involves in these lengthy battles with kobe-hater ginobli anymore.:banghead:

How can you argue with the same guy who said a 2010 lakers team w/o kobe would still win the west in the playoffs?!

[PowerGlove]

There are many players in NBA history with better statistics than Kobe-numbers are just numbers. That doesn't mean that these players are better than Kobe, they couldnt get it done when it mattered or only had one title in their career.

As of now and probably when he retires too, Lebron is just another one of these pretenders

I'm just quoting this so that one day you can see how dumb you were/still are/always will be.

[Doranku]

I'm just quoting this so that one day you can see how dumb you were/still are/always will be.

You'll be saving that quote for awhile considering LeBron will never win a ring.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

You'll be saving that quote for awhile considering LeBron will never win a ring.

Incorrect.
Lebron will demand a S&T to the Lakers so he can be Robin.

[I am that I am]

I'm just quoting this so that one day you can see how dumb you were/still are/always will be.
I bet you're one of those clowns who doesnt understand basketball who thought the Cavs were going to win the title the past 2 years, admit it

[PowerGlove]

Most real fans could care less about comparing them, all L.A fans should care about is the championships. Judging by alot of the posts in here many aren't trying to playdown Lebron and his stats but more his mind set and focus. His team-mates aren't the greatest when they lose but when they win it is the perfect cast. Can't have it both ways.

People and the media have always overreacted any news regarding lebron. It has been this way since 2003. Nothing new.


You'll be saving that quote for awhile considering LeBron will never win a ring.

Uh-huh. Could be true.

[chopchop20]

LeBron is a it flamboyant, IMO. He just carries himself like he's actually accomplished something. I mean all of the antics and dancing on the sidelines is cool if ur winning. He just seems to get caught up in the "show" too much.

A lotta people b.itched at Kobe about being to hostile towards his teammates in Game 5. But guess what, Lakers won the defense and the boards in Games 6 & 7.

I think it's a cop-out condemning LeBron's teammates so much. They'd be better if he cut the crap and stepped to be a more hard-nosed leader.

And now you heard all of this talk about LeBron's "handlers" during free agency. You gotta go through certain people to talk to him and stuff like that. Dude needs to stop acting like diva

[Braincells]

Lebron is a 6 foot 8 Iverson and he'll probably end up ringless as well.

[RazorBaLade]

When they are trying to cheapen every statistical advantage he has over Kobe, I would say they care.

bro lebron would never be mentioned during june if it wasnt for the legion of bron fanboys that see something about kobe and have to say something about lebron.

[The Iron Fist]

lol....now we are resorting to saying that kobe's rebounds are better than lebron's. i'm off the boards for good guys. i can't debate with people that are going to claim a 15 rebound game is better than a 19 rebound game against the same team.

enjoy the offseason.


Good, its about time.

The board was getting tired of you trying to downplay every single thing Kobe has done.

The board can't debate with someone who claims people who have done less in NBA history, are somehow better than someone who has done more.

[The Iron Fist]

Most real fans could care less about comparing them, all L.A fans should care about is the championships. Judging by alot of the posts in here many aren't trying to playdown Lebron and his stats but more his mind set and focus. His team-mates aren't the greatest when they lose but when they win it is the perfect cast. Can't have it both ways.


About as best as it can be said.

[Lebron23]

Who cares?

You are a dumb @$$ if you think that Mo Williams is better than Pau Gasol. LeBron's 2nd best scorer in the conference Finals was 39 yrs.old Shaquille O'Neal.

LeBron would have better teammates and coaching staff if he signs with another NBA Team.

[bhallic24]

lol....your whole premise is flawed. they won 60 because lebron played at a such a high level. a much higher level than kobe has ever played at any point in his career.

sorry.....your post fails.
LOL

And Lebron playing at such a low level is the exact reason why they got bounced. Dude just gave up in the boston series and spread his ass cheeks and said rape me.

Pitiful. Gotta bring yo nuts when the playoff party starts my friend.

Kobe's got the kohonas and lebron doesn't. Simple as that. Hell you can average 100 ppg in the regular season but no one's going to give a *** if you don't win the championship.

[Lebron23]

If he sign with the Knicks or Bulls. He's gonna be the oldest player on their team which means that his team has a lot of potential to win an NBA title in this decade because they are young and very athletic.

I love to see a young team beats a veteran team in the playoffs.

[macpierce]

kobe will keep winning championships, so lebron will never get the "RANK" over kobe by the so called experts/current basketball players. I'm sure ISH opinions by fanboys on both sides matter more

[Indian guy]

2010 Cavs defensive rating (regular season): 104.1
2010 Lakers defensive rating (regular season): 103.7

So the LAKERS, notorious for not playing with much effort in the regular season, were a better defensive team than Cleveland by a good 3 spots(ranked #4 to Cleveland's #7). That speaks volumes on just how much more talented they are on that end of the floor. Because once the playoffs began, there was no comparison.


2010 Cavs defensive rating (playoffs): 106.8
2010 Lakers defensive rating (playoffs): 108.6

:oldlol: Are you serious? Tell me what it was against Boston. Who gives a sh!t about how Cleveland fared against the 4th worst offense in the NBA in Chicago? I want to know the defensive rating against Boston. Because by all metrics out there(FG%, eFG% and TS%), Boston performed significantly worse offensively against LA than Cleveland. And get this, LA played WORSE offensively against Boston than Cleveland did. I'm talking everything here - PPG, fg%, efg%, ts%. LeBron also put up significantly better numbers against Boston than Kobe did.

So spare me the crap about "making teammates worse" or hogging the ball. Team defense and coaching, that's the difference between LeBron and Kobe in the playoffs. Even more so last postseason against Orlando, where Cleveland's offensive production equaled LA's in the finals. Defensively though, not even close.

btw, how do you compute defensive rating?

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Team defense and coaching, that's the difference between LeBron and Kobe in the playoffs.

Well, there you have it. Kobe is the better team defender and coach.

[Indian guy]

He was horrible save for one quarter in the last 4 games of that Magic series too.

:oldlol:

36.7/10/8.7/43%. That's what LeBron averaged the last 4 games of the series. I'd love to know how a player produces that with only 1 good qtr. Heck, those numbers blow Kobe's Finals against the exact same team OUT of the water. I guess unlike LeBron, Kobe couldn't even manage to play 1 good qtr.


THIS is why people have trouble putting Lebron over Wade and Kobe.

No, winning is the ONLY reason why SOME people put Kobe over LeBron. Around the net, after the finals, I still see LeBron winning every Best Player poll out there. Hell, YOU, lord of the LeBron haters, picked LeBron too a couple of days ago. That tells me all I need to know about LeBron vs. Kobe.

[Tez62]

i agree. lebron did not have a great series. but that is the point. lebron literally has to play perfect for that group to win games against good teams. look at orlando last year and now boston this year. look at how poorly kobe played overall compared to lebron......and his team won the title against the same team.

you just can't compare the two teams at all......and you also can't compare lebron to kobe....because lebron is just so much better right now even when he is off.

Would you like to go back another year to when they lost to an even better Boston team???

Lebron goes 2-18 and they lose on the road by 4. A very winnable game.

In the 3 wins, Lebron shoots 5-16 , 7-20, and 9-23. So how exactly does Lebron have to play "perfect" for them to compete???? :oldlol:

[Bladers]

lol the b!tch comes out of Kobe fans when Lebron is mentioned.Face it Lebron right now is better than Kobe ever was


*waits for U Mad? pic*:lol

http://halfcourtblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/fp3943kobe-bryant-81-points-posters.jpg

U MAD?

[Bladers]

http://www.i-mockery.com/blabber/pics/carltondance1.gif

http://img10.abload.de/img/nike2_1_1vfba.gif

[artex]

http://halfcourtblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/fp3943kobe-bryant-81-points-posters.jpg

U MAD?

that kid has 1,000 posts of crying about Kobe LoL

[Bladers]

http://www.i-mockery.com/blabber/pics/carltondance1.gif

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll57/extra76/Walker/XXl/girls/GIF%20For%20NT/More%20GIF/168xxknjpg.gif

LALALALA MAD?

[Lebron23]

Jeff needs to lock this thread. Can we all get along?

[Disaprine]

i'll give you a clap amil23 :applause: at least you didn't bitch out like pleasebelive.

[Indian guy]

The only numbers that matter.

Cavs' PPG/FG% against Orlando in '09 ECF: 100/45%
LA's PPG/FG% against Orlando in '09 Finals: 101/46%

Orlando's PPG/FG% against Cavs: 104/48%
Orlando's PPG/FG% against LAL: 91/43%

LeBron vs. Orlando - 38.5/8.3/8/48.7%
Bryant vs. Orlando - 32.4/5.6/7.4/43%


Cavs' PPG/FG% against Boston in '10 ECS: 95/45%
LA's PPG/FG% against Boston in '10 Finals: 90/42%

Boston's PPG/FG% against Cavs: 98/47%
Boston's PPG/FG% against LAL: 87/44%

LeBron vs. Boston - 26.8/9.3/7.2/44.7%
Bryant vs. Boston - 28.6/7.9/3.9/40.5%

[Fatal9]

36.7/10/8.7/43%. That's what LeBron averaged the last 4 games of the series. I'd love to know how a player produces that with only 1 good qtr. Heck, those numbers blow Kobe's Finals against the exact same team OUT of the water. I guess unlike LeBron, Kobe couldn't even manage to play 1 good qtr.


No amount of statwhoring you do is convincing me, or anyone with a brain who watched the series, that Lebron played well against the Magic after the first couple of games (seems to be a trend with him, disappear in the middle of the series when it gets tough?). You can hide behind aggregate stats all you want...look at it game by game...

Game 3:

Lebron shoots 11/28 to get his 41 points. This is the most inefficient 40+ game in playoff history, save maybe Pierce's 40 pt game 7 years ago (and Lebron got some calls, like that three pointer on Howard, which were jaw dropping). That fourth quarter where he choked at the line when the game was in hand (went 4/9 at FT line) was really awesome (though he did end up making 3/3 on that BS Howard call when the game was basically out of reach in last 30 seconds....clutch!).

Game 4:

44 pts. Great. on 13/28 with 8 turnovers :oldlol:. 7 of those turnovers came in a 7-8 minute span in 4th quarter and OT. This is literally like going 0/7 in that span, it completely blew the game. No one who watched that could come out thinking he played well. All he had to do was hold the freaking ball, and they win the game. West made a couple of shots, Varejao too in the last 6 minutes, the game was theirs. Again...he single handedly blew the game in the 4th and OT, and you want to call this a great game?

Game 5:

Great 4th quarter to make up for his shitty play through the first 3. Can't hate on that.

Game 6:
Completely invisible after first quarter (12 pts, 3/13, with some of those pts being in the last minute of a blowout, so he played even worse). Didn't even look like he was trying after about 10 minutes.

So we have him putting up one of the worst shooting 40+ pt games in playoff history, and in the same game he choked at the FT line. Then next game he chokes by committing an almost unprecendedt 7 turnovers in 8 minute span of 4th and OT (and again, shooting like crap to get his 40 pts). And then in game 6, he is totally invisible for the entire game and doesn't even seem to try after the first freaking quarter (while game was still in hand).

And also remember how horrible his help defense on Dwight was. Kobe (and Odom) was coming in and completely taking away the middle with his great help D. Lebron sagged off shooters, but he didn't even play team defense while doing it, he was completely clueless. Played well in the first two games, but didn't have a great series by any stretch of the imagination. Classic case of empty stats with him like usual. You have pretty low standards for this guy if you are impressed by this shit.

[The Iron Fist]

The only numbers that matter.

Cavs' PPG/FG% against Orlando in '09 ECF: 100/45%
LA's PPG/FG% against Orlando in '09 Finals: 101/46%

Orlando's PPG/FG% against Cavs: 104/48%
Orlando's PPG/FG% against LAL: 91/43%

LeBron vs. Orlando - 38.5/8.3/8/48.7%
Bryant vs. Orlando - 32.4/5.6/7.4/43%


Cavs' PPG/FG% against Boston in '10 ECS: 95/45%
LA's PPG/FG% against Boston in '10 Finals: 90/42%

Boston's PPG/FG% against Cavs: 98/47%
Boston's PPG/FG% against LAL: 87/44%

LeBron vs. Boston - 26.8/9.3/7.2/44.7%
Bryant vs. Boston - 28.6/7.9/3.9/40.5%


No, these are the only numbers that matter.

Boston 4 LAL 2
LAL 4 - Orlando 1
LAL 4 - Boston 3


SA 4 - Cle 0

[RazorBaLade]

honestly i think ppl here only think bron is so great bcuz he simply isnt kobe. Its strange how all bron fans respect wade, shaq, mcgrady just because they too at one point were compared with kobe.

[Indian guy]

No amount of statwhoring you do is convincing me

Facts = stat whoring? :oldlol:. You know what's funny? The fact that LeBron can play a "horrible" 4 game stretch against Orlando yet still blow Kobe's entire Finals against them out of the water. That has to hurt. Because if your fu*ked up logic says LeBron was terrible, then what does that make Kobe? After all, that's what this thread is about - LeBron vs. Kobe. Since the answer seems obvious, you've conveniently ignored that and come up with the most BS, trollish scale to judge a game - where you'll ignore every good thing LeBron did that helped him put up such monster numbers, but will instead focus on that 1 stretch in a game where he wasn't godly, and let those few mins. define the entire game. Yet for whatever reason, you don't bother to judge Kobe like that.


Game 4:

44 pts. Great. on 13/28 with 8 turnovers :oldlol:. 7 of those turnovers came in a 7-8 minute span in 4th quarter and OT. This is literally like going 0/7 in that span, it completely blew the game. No one who watched that could come out thinking he played well. All he had to do was hold the freaking ball, and they win the game. West made a couple of shots, Varejao too in the last 6 minutes, the game was theirs. Again...he single handedly blew the game in the 4th and OT, and you want to call this a great game?

A so-so 5 minute stretch negates an entire game? I love your cherry picking logic. Basically, all you do is pick a stretch where LeBron wasn't good, and somehow that defines the whole game. When fact is, he was SPECTACULAR the entire game outside of those few minutes. That's how you achieve MONSTER stat lines - by playing well the entire game and carrying your team. With Kobe, he can be invisible for long stretches of a game and YET still win. Heck, he went 11-40 in the 4th qtrs of the Finals and still WON. LeBron's asked to be A LOT more consistent than Kobe, which he is - as well supported by his far superior numbers. This is why his supposedly "bad" 4 game stretch can blow Kobe's entire series against Orlando out of the water, and still lose. Kobe plays on the much better team. This is what we're trying to get to here. Your desperate qtr-by-qtr breakdown won't avert us from the actual argument here - LeBron's better, but Kobe plays on the much better team.


Game 5:

Great 4th quarter to make up for his shitty play through the first 3. Can't hate on that.

Here we go again :oldlol:. In previous games, you picked his less than stellar 4th qtr and somehow that defined his whole night. And now, suddenly the focus shifts to the previous 3 qtrs after a stellar 4th qtr. So basically, there's no way he can win unless he's GOD for an entire game. If he isn't, regardless of how awesome his overall game stat line and impact is, it's somehow not a good game. Fu*k out of here with that. You judge a player based on his impact the ENTIRE game, not on a qtr-by-qtr basis. You do realize I can pick Kobe's play apart in every freaking game with your biased logic, right?

38/8/8/49% - to actually pretend a stat line this historic doesn't require a player to be consistently great from qtr 1-4 in EVERY game tells me what a sad, sad troll you are. Would you prefer me to go through Kobe's play against Orlando the same way - to see what he does in every qtr, every key stretch, every 4th qtr? Maybe I should start with the game where he shot 11-31 and still won? Or maybe every 4th qtr of the 2010 Finals? :oldlol:. Mind you, Kobe's production isn't much to write about in these 2 series' as it is. If your trollish logic can render a 38/8/8/49% series to "5 good quarters", it'll be interesting to see what I'd be able to with Kobe's FAR inferior production.


Game 6:
Completely invisible after first quarter (12 pts, 3/13, with some of those pts being in the last minute of a blowout, so he played even worse). Didn't even look like he was trying after about 10 minutes.

His lone bad game of the series.


And also remember how horrible his help defense on Dwight was. Kobe (and Odom) was coming in and completely taking away the middle with his great help D. Lebron sagged off shooters, but he didn't even play team defense while doing it, he was completely clueless. Played well in the first two games, but didn't have a great series by any stretch of the imagination. Classic case of empty stats with him like usual. You have pretty low standards for this guy if you are impressed by this shit.

Yeah, let's forget Gasol and Bynum's super man D on Howard, their terrific length and athleticism that kept Orlando's shooters from being effective, and Phil Jackson's clever double/triple-team schemes in the post and give all the credit to Kobe :oldlol:. The fact that you're willing to ignore LA's obvious personnel advantage over Cleveland for their far superior defensive success against Orlando is all I need to know about what a JOKE you are. First you cherry pick quarters to downplay a 38/8/8/49% series, and now this :oldlol:. Jesus, I can't even imagine how much more of a troll you'd be if Kobe ever actually put up numbers in LeBron's league.

[chopchop20]

The only numbers that matter.

Cavs' PPG/FG% against Orlando in '09 ECF: 100/45%
LA's PPG/FG% against Orlando in '09 Finals: 101/46%

Orlando's PPG/FG% against Cavs: 104/48%
Orlando's PPG/FG% against LAL: 91/43%

LeBron vs. Orlando - 38.5/8.3/8/48.7%
Bryant vs. Orlando - 32.4/5.6/7.4/43%


Cavs' PPG/FG% against Boston in '10 ECS: 95/45%
LA's PPG/FG% against Boston in '10 Finals: 90/42%

Boston's PPG/FG% against Cavs: 98/47%
Boston's PPG/FG% against LAL: 87/44%

LeBron vs. Boston - 26.8/9.3/7.2/44.7%
Bryant vs. Boston - 28.6/7.9/3.9/40.5%

Give it up already.... your only attempt to validate LeBron is through numbers. And everybody knows it's all about rings.

If Jordan had not won 6 Titles, he would not be considered as the GOAT. It matters a da.mn what kinda numbers you try to use, it doesn't mean a thing if u aint got da bling.

Furthermore, you provide no contextual relevance for all of these numbers you posted. Give us some numbers that mean something like how many points scored in the 4th quarter, the % of team points scored, shots made that gave the team the lead in the game, etc.... something that significantly IMPACTED the game. Cuz we know that LeBron is the KING of stats and the PAUPER of championships. :rockon:

[chopchop20]

Facts = stat whoring? :oldlol:. You know what's funny? The fact that LeBron's "horrible" 4 game stretch against Orlando blows Kobe's entire series against them out of the water. If LeBron was horrible, then gee, what was Kobe? Pretty goddamn inferior to LeBron, that's what. But he has the luxury of playing with a dominant defense. And that's the only reason why LA wins and Cleveland doesn't.



A so-so 5 minute stretch negates an entire game? I love your cherry picking logic. Basically, all you do is pick a stretch where LeBron wasn't good, and somehow that defines the whole game. When fact is, he was SPECTACULAR the entire game outside of those few minutes. With Kobe, he can go through awful stretches multiple times in a game and YET still win. Heck, he went 11-40 in the 4th qtrs of the Finals and still WON. LeBron's asked to be A LOT more consistent than Kobe, which he is - as well supported by his far superior numbers. This is why his supposedly "bad" 4 game stretch can blow Kobe's entire series against Orlando out of the water, and still lose. Kobe plays on the much better team.



Here we go again :oldlol:. In previous games, you picked his less than stellar 4th qtr and somehow that defined his whole night. And now, suddenly the focus shifts to the previous 3 qtrs after a stellar 4th qtr. So basically, you're asking LeBron to be PERFECT. If he isn't, regardless of how awesome his overall game stat line is, it's somehow not a good game. Fu*k out of here with that. You judge a player based on the ENTIRE game, not on a qtr-by-qtr basis. You do realize I can pick Kobe's play apart in every freaking game with your biased logic, right?



His lone bad game of the series.




Yeah, let's forget Gasol and Bynum's super man D on Howard, their terrific length and athleticism that kept Orlando's shooters from being effective, and Phil Jackson's clever double/triple-team schemes in the post and give all the credit to Kobe :oldlol:. The fact that you're willing to ignore LA's obvious personnel advantage over Cleveland for their far superior defensive success against Orlando is all I need to know about what a JOKE you are. First you cherry pick quarters to downplay a 38/8/8/49% series, and now this :oldlol:. Jesus, I can't even imagine what you'd do if Kobe ever actually put up numbers in LeBron's league.

I can't imagine what you'd do if LeBron ever got a ring.

I CAN imagine how dumb you sound trying to defend his play against the Celtics when Rondo outplayed him :oldlol:

[Bladers]

I remember this same Indian Guy was on Kobe's nut sack when he was putting up 50+ pts every freaking game for 4 straight games...:lol

Now he's on Lebron's nut sack for grabing 10 rebs from his own teammates and dishing out 10 assists to open three pointers with 3 seconds on the clock to boost his stats? :wtf:

[chopchop20]

I remember this same indian Guy was on Kobe's nut sack when he was putting up 50+ pts every freaking game for 4 straight game...:lol

I know man, that cat is a FRAUD -- Faker than a $3 bill. EngineGuy has been in numerous Laker threads pretending to praise Kobe. He was sippin' the kool-aid, thought LeBron was gonna finally get it this year so he could turn around and throw it Lakers fans' faces. It back-fired, Bron lost AGAIN, now he's going of the deep end like a fat chick in a room full of milkshakes.. grasping for straws!

[DTD]

http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/8839/1745mgkb654lh.jpg

[Indian guy]

The only numbers that matter.

Cavs' PPG/FG% against Orlando in '09 ECF: 100/45%
LA's PPG/FG% against Orlando in '09 Finals: 101/46%

Orlando's PPG/FG% against Cavs: 104/48%
Orlando's PPG/FG% against LAL: 91/43%

LeBron vs. Orlando - 38.5/8.3/8/48.7%
Bryant vs. Orlando - 32.4/5.6/7.4/43%


Cavs' PPG/FG% against Boston in '10 ECS: 95/45%
LA's PPG/FG% against Boston in '10 Finals: 90/42%

Boston's PPG/FG% against Cavs: 98/47%
Boston's PPG/FG% against LAL: 87/44%

LeBron vs. Boston - 26.8/9.3/7.2/44.7%
Bryant vs. Boston - 28.6/7.9/3.9/40.5%


Still waiting for a response to this. I've been told LeBron loses because his style of play renders his team offensively incompetent, whereas Kobe's style helps his teammates thrive. Everything has been boiled down to OFFENSE. Doesn't matter if Gasol's a lot better than 'Mo and Mike Brown isn't 10% the coach PJ is. I've been told none of that matters. It's all about who makes their teammates better. LeBron couldn't beat Orlando and Boston because his teammates can't effectively score playing alongside him. Kobe can beat Boston and Orlando because he assures Gasol and co. don't have any such issues. So LA ends up performing better offensively as a team, and that's why they win whereas Cleveland loses.

These stats completely blow that belief out of the water. What now? Can we just be honest and admit that defense is the sole difference here? Yes, LA does have more offensive talent than Cleveland, but LeBron being better than Kobe has neutralized that gap. But there's nothing to neutralize the gap that stems from LA's far superior front court, and their overall length and athleticism. That is why LA wins and Cleveland loses. Well, that and Phil Jackson.

[magnax1]

Lebron did have a team that was probably the third most talented in the league. He really didn't have much of an excuse not to get past the Celtics. Its not like his team mates sucked either. Most games he had a team mate or two that stepped it up.

[Alhazred]

http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/8839/1745mgkb654lh.jpg

:roll: :roll:

[Doranku]

Thats a true statement i cant think of one person who showed up to more than 2 games.

Including LeBron. :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Jacks3]

People still think Kobe>LeBron.LMAO. You'd think their respective series vs Orl/Bos the last 2 years would convince everybody,but apparently not.:lol

[Doranku]

You all can debate for the rest of time. One fact still remains.

Kobe has won the title for the past two years. LeBron, consequently, has come up short these past two years. This means one thing.

Kobe fans will continue to argue, LeBron fans will continue to make excuses.

LeBron will end his career ringless, and 50 years from now will just be remembered as the modern day Oscar Robertson without a ring. And to quote Kobe, "You can take that to the bank."

[PowerGlove]

What is your beef against Lebron?

[Doranku]

What is your beef against Lebron?

I live in Ohio. If you think Kobe fans are bad, you should see some of the people I've encountered. Between my friends, ESPN, and the other raging lunatics I've met around here, it's hard NOT to dislike LeBron.

[PowerGlove]

I live in Ohio. If you think Kobe fans are bad, you should see some of the people I've encountered. Between my friends, ESPN, and the other raging lunatics I've met around here, it's hard NOT to dislike LeBron.
:oldlol: I used to live in Ohio myself(96-07) but that doesn't make me hate him. I've always admired how he turned around the Cavs and made them relevant.

[Doranku]

:oldlol: I used to live in Ohio myself(96-07) but that doesn't make me hate him. I've always admired how he turned around the Cavs and made them relevant.

Yeah, but you aren't a Laker fan. I'm pretty sure every person that lives here HATES Kobe and the Lakers and deems it necessary to talk a mad amount of shit. I didn't mind LeBron when he first entered the league and had all that hype surrounding him, it was interesting more than anything. But now it's just like okay, we get it. He's a great player. He's not Michael, calm down.

[PowerGlove]

Yeah, but you aren't a Laker fan. I'm pretty sure every person that lives here HATES Kobe and the Lakers and deems it necessary to talk a mad amount of shit. I didn't mind LeBron when he first entered the league and had all that hype surrounding him, it was interesting more than anything. But now it's just like okay, we get it. He's a great player. He's not Michael, calm down.

True. Kobe did/does get a lot of hate in Ohio. I remember when he scored 81 and dudes were criticizing him about being down at halftime.:oldlol:

[catch24]

^Doranku

Come to LA and meet the Kobe stans (in their heads he is the King of Los Angeles).

Also LeBron > Kobe--and it ain't even CLOSE.

[Doranku]

True. Kobe did/does get a lot of hate in Ohio. I remember when he scored 81 and dudes were criticizing him about being down at halftime.:oldlol:

Yup. They still say shit like that. I remember when he hit the game winner against Milwaukee earlier this year, I literally got three different texts all saying something similar too, "that's pretty sad Kobe needs to hit a game winner against the MILWAUKEE BUCKS". :oldlol:

[Doranku]

^Doranku

Come to LA and meet the Kobe stans (in their heads he is the King of Los Angeles).

Also LeBron > Kobe--and it ain't even CLOSE.

Sounds familiar... *coughcoughKingJamescoughcough*

[catch24]

Sounds familiar... *coughcoughKingJamescoughcough*

:oldlol: dudes like griffmoney85554 (whatever the f*ck his name is) are a regularity over here. "Um, duhhh, Michael Jordan was a product of the 90s. Kobe is more skilled"

There's no way LBJ fans are worse than Kobe homers when it pertains to the games history. No f'ing way.

[tpols]

:oldlol: dudes like griffmoney85554 (whatever the f*ck his name is) are a regularity over here. "Um, duhhh, Michael Jordan was a product of the 90s. Kobe is more skilled"

There's no way LBJ fans are worse than Kobe homers when it pertains to the games history. No f'ing way.
Thing is, and I'm nuetral btw, I've noticed that lebron fans always bring up stats and make statements like he's a way better player than kobe ever was but all I see is kobe winning year in and year out while lebron sits at home.

Actions speak louder than words, just saying.

[chopchop20]

Still waiting for a response to this. I've been told LeBron loses because his style of play renders his team offensively incompetent, whereas Kobe's style helps his teammates thrive. Everything has been boiled down to OFFENSE. Doesn't matter if Gasol's a lot better than 'Mo and Mike Brown isn't 10% the coach PJ is. I've been told none of that matters. It's all about who makes their teammates better. LeBron couldn't beat Orlando and Boston because his teammates can't effectively score playing alongside him. Kobe can beat Boston and Orlando because he assures Gasol and co. don't have any such issues. So LA ends up performing better offensively as a team, and that's why they win whereas Cleveland loses.

These stats completely blow that belief out of the water. What now? Can we just be honest and admit that defense is the sole difference here? Yes, LA does have more offensive talent than Cleveland, but LeBron being better than Kobe has neutralized that gap. But there's nothing to neutralize the gap that stems from LA's far superior front court, and their overall length and athleticism. That is why LA wins and Cleveland loses. Well, that and Phil Jackson.

Hope LeBron has a better excuse if he retires ringless

[chopchop20]

:oldlol: dudes like griffmoney85554 (whatever the f*ck his name is) are a regularity over here. "Um, duhhh, Michael Jordan was a product of the 90s. Kobe is more skilled"

There's no way LBJ fans are worse than Kobe homers when it pertains to the games history. No f'ing way.

I bet LBJ fans feel worse since they don't get to cheer for a champion :rockon:

[The Iron Fist]

^Doranku

Come to LA and meet the Kobe stans (in their heads he is the King of Los Angeles).

Also LeBron > Kobe--and it ain't even CLOSE.


Who else is the King of Los Angeles sports right now?

Russell Martin?

Shane Mosley?

Who?

[BlueandGold]

Thing is, and I'm nuetral btw, I've noticed that lebron fans always bring up stats and make statements like he's a way better player than kobe ever was but all I see is kobe winning year in and year out while lebron sits at home.

Actions speak louder than words, just saying.

good post

[chazzy]

:oldlol: dudes like griffmoney85554 (whatever the f*ck his name is) are a regularity over here. "Um, duhhh, Michael Jordan was a product of the 90s. Kobe is more skilled"

There's no way LBJ fans are worse than Kobe homers when it pertains to the games history. No f'ing way.

:oldlol: Agreed. There are countless amounts of people here who really believe Kobe's the greatest ever. And that Shaq's contributions never happened.

[moey-]

why kobe?

hondo has 8 titles and a finals mvp. hondo averaged 22 points 7 boards 5 assists for his career in the playoffs.

LOL. 8 titles to 5 and similar numbers......sorry. do better. why is kobe better?

yes, it's all about stats!:lol stupid americans.

[mamba24]

lol....your whole premise is flawed. they won 60 because lebron played at a such a high level. a much higher level than kobe has ever played at any point in his career.

sorry.....your post fails.

why not just watch and judge the actual players. if you think gasol/odom/bynum/fisher/artest is not significantly better than mo/jamison/shaq/west/andy......then you need help.

lebron's greatness is now becoming his own worst enemy because people like you don't understand the game at all.


my god about the cavs losing to the celtics. did you watch the celtics dominate the magic? did you watch them dominate the lakers? kobe looked like a boy amongst men out there for the series. the finals is perfect evidence that the supporting cast for the lakers is far far greater. end of story. kobe played like ass in every 4th qtr, played like ass overall, and played one of the worst game 7's in nba history.....and the lakers still won. LOL

maybe you should stop looking at stats and watch the game.

sure he missed shots, but he had 10 points in the 4th quarter in the last 6 mins.

For all of lebrons talents his 60+ win team and dirks 60+ win teams have one thing in common.

They are the only teams with 60+ wins and the no1 seed overall to never win a title.

Lebron also is a legend in the making who has the honour of being swept in the finals the other person to join him is shaq.

Get off your lebron high horse, in the finals the celtics defensive rating was 6th all time in 2008 it was 4th all time.

get this moron...MJ's best defensive opponent was the sonics and they are 7th best all time...so kobe played against a better defense...and still won.

I dont care how much you wanna tap your feet and moan, He will go down as a top 3 player and no matter how much you bash or hate nothings gonna change.

he has more titles than duncan or shaq, dominated the decade more than they have, still only 31 going on 32 and two more titles atleast.

get this...as much as you like to listen to the media when you want and ignore it when you dont, what they say sticks and right now kobe is a top 5 player. One more title and he is top 3.

ESPN is the worldwide leader in sports, unless you watch some Al jazeera sports update your gonna have to kill yourself...and you have your opinion but it doesnt count...lol

[Mor'Fiyah]

Been following the conversation with interest. One the one hand I think SOME of the criticism of Lebron is unwarranted. On the other hand, many of the greats (including Kobe Bryant) have had to go through strenuous and often unfair criticism... so why shouldn't Lebron?

When Kobe had a less talented Laker's team and had to do it all for LA to even stay competitive people on here and in the media (in particular the same people praise Lebron and hate on Kobe now) insisted despite the spectacular individual stats that Kobe was a poor teammate, a bad leader, and that he didn't make his teammates better. Now here we have Lebron James in much the same position only with better teammates and in an easier conference and yet no one has questioned Lebron's ability in the Cav's offense to actually elevate the play of his teammates. Meanwhile Kobe has better teammates, is winning, and is actually getting penalized for this. There are hypocrites on both sides of the equation here.

In my humble opinion, Lebron's demise in the playoffs was due in large part to the fact that Boston was just a better team than the Celtics irrespective of team record. It was also due in less large a part to the Cavs bottleneck offense (and defence) that relied so heavily on Lebron (resulting in boosted stats for Lebron) and took impetus from his teammates. In some small part the loss was also due to Lebron's lack of versatility in offense. Lebron still relies heavily on his athleticism going to the paint and a three ball to mix things up and keep the defence honest. Well really good teams like the Celtics can take away the drive and make the deep three difficult as well. I thought Lebron had games where it was not that he gave up... but that Boston took all the options he was good at away from him. Driving became a turnover waiting to happen and when the drive is taken from Lebron it LOOKS like he isn't trying because he has nothing else to try but launching threes. He can't post up and doesn't have an effective mid range game. Boston did not even have to double and triple him in waves as they did with Kobe because of these limitations in his game.

[bongolarry]

Are you implying that Lebron has a better Supporting cast than Kobe?:roll: :lol I sure as hell hope not.

[bongolarry]

[/QUOTE]Get off your lebron high horse, in the finals the celtics defensive rating was 6th all time in 2008 it was 4th all time.

get this moron...MJ's best defensive opponent was the sonics and they are 7th best all time...so kobe played against a better defense...and still won.

I dont care how much you wanna tap your feet and moan, He will go down as a top 3 player and no matter how much you bash or hate nothings gonna change.

he has more titles than duncan or shaq, dominated the decade more than they have, still only 31 going on 32 and two more titles atleast.

get this...as much as you like to listen to the media when you want and ignore it when you dont, what they say sticks and right now kobe is a top 5 player. One more title and he is top 3.

ESPN is the worldwide leader in sports, unless you watch some Al jazeera sports update your gonna have to kill yourself...and you have your opinion but it doesnt count...lol[/QUOTE]

Are you kidding me first off where are you getting these defensive statistics 6th of all time? Did you make that up? Also Kobe is a top 5 player of all time? Your clearly retarded. Hes probably better than jordan too although jordan never shot 25% in a finals series.

[oh the horror]

yes, it's all about stats!:lol stupid americans.



What does "stupid americans" have to do with anything? You're on a site with mostly American members, so why dont you go elsewhere or shut your little mouth about that?

[EricForman]

yet kobe is playing on the stacked team? At the end of the trade deadline this season after the Cavs acquired Jamison everyone on ISH and around the NBA was saying that the Cavs by far had the best team from top to bottom yet when they got bounced out of the playoffs in the seminfinals (a feat no #1 seed has accomplished since Golden state beat the mavs) it was all about how Boston was all of a sudden the better team with better veteran/all-around talent.

I'm sorry but you can't have the best of both worlds. You can't cry about having an inferior supporting cast when you've been trumped out of the playoffs by teams with the worse record two seasons in a row, especially two 60+ win seasons. having 60+ wins and losing to a team with 50 wins total that are facing all sorts of injury and old age problems is unacceptable, especially when the leader and superstar of that team is a no-show in a pivotal game 5.


it's not having the best of both worlds. The Cav's roster spot 2 through 12 isn't as good as the Lakers 2 through 12, by far. It's just fact. The reason why win 60 is because Lebron is amazing at getting the most out of teammates and making things work...you know, hence the MVP.

Kobe's the better killer. Kobe's better in the final minute. BUt you want someone to carry a cast through the season it's Lebron.

Instead of starting this thread why don't you use some common sense. Mo Williams, old Antawn Jamison and older Shaq are his three best players. Kobe has a team where the 4th best guy can go for 25 5 5 in the playoffs and the 6th best guy (fisher) can hit clutch shots after clutch shots to carry them during crucial moment of playoffs. Do you think outside of Lebron, you'd see anyone else on the Cavs carry the team for more than one playoff game per year?

Odom (19 19 game), Fisher (hit ridiculous shot after shot during that 4th quarter in game 3), Artest (25-5-5 and carried hte team in first half of game 7), and Gasol (best player and difference maker in game 7 down the stretch) is already FOUR GUYS who can step up huge outside of Kobe. and I haven't even counted Bynum.

Really, you wanna compare Lebron's cast to that? Lamar Odom is probably equal or almost as good as anyone on the Cavs not named Lebron right now. You really would take Shaq right now or 34 year old Jamison over him?

The Cavs win 60 games because Lebron is good at getting the max out of his teammates. But in the playoffs they're exposde for being an inferior team 2 through 12. THey lost to teams with a better all around cast the last two years. Simple as that.

[ginobli2311]

it's not having the best of both worlds. The Cav's roster spot 2 through 12 isn't as good as the Lakers 2 through 12, by far. It's just fact. The reason why win 60 is because Lebron is amazing at getting the most out of teammates and making things work...you know, hence the MVP.

Kobe's the better killer. Kobe's better in the final minute. .
[/B]
Instead of starting this thread why don't you use some common sense. Mo Williams, old Antawn Jamison and older Shaq are his three best players. Kobe has a team where the 4th best guy can go for 25 5 5 in the playoffs and the 6th best guy (fisher) can hit clutch shots after clutch shots to carry them during crucial moment of playoffs. Do you think outside of Lebron, you'd see anyone else on the Cavs carry the team for more than one playoff game per year?

Odom (19 19 game), Fisher (hit ridiculous shot after shot during that 4th quarter in game 3), Artest (25-5-5 and carried hte team in first half of game 7), and Gasol (best player and difference maker in game 7 down the stretch) is already FOUR GUYS who can step up huge outside of Kobe. and I haven't even counted Bynum.

Really, you wanna compare Lebron's cast to that? Lamar Odom is probably equal or almost as good as anyone on the Cavs not named Lebron right now. You really would take Shaq right now or 34 year old Jamison over him?

The Cavs win 60 games because Lebron is good at getting the max out of his teammates. But in the playoffs they're exposde for being an inferior team 2 through 12. THey lost to teams with a better all around cast the last two years. Simple as that.

great post.

although i disagree with the bold. i think kobe has the better mentality at times down the stretch. but lebron's performance in the closing minutes of tight games is actually better than kobe's.

i totally agree with everything else. do people realize that lamar odom would be the best player lebron has ever played with? the sixth man on the current lakers would be the best player lebron has played with in his entire career.

i'm so sick of hearing that lebron's stats are empty. why are they empty? a point is a point....and lebron scores more efficiently than kobe. a rebound is a rebound and an assists is an assist. lebron's assist to turnover ration blew kobe's out of the water against the celtics. its such a double standard.

[john_d]

great post.

although i disagree with the bold. i think kobe has the better mentality at times down the stretch. but lebron's performance in the closing minutes of tight games is actually better than kobe's.

i totally agree with everything else. do people realize that lamar odom would be the best player lebron has ever played with? the sixth man on the current lakers would be the best player lebron has played with in his entire career.

i'm so sick of hearing that lebron's stats are empty. why are they empty? a point is a point....and lebron scores more efficiently than kobe. a rebound is a rebound and an assists is an assist. lebron's assist to turnover ration blew kobe's out of the water against the celtics. its such a double standard.
his stats are empty because that's all he cares about.

i'd rather see him go out shooting vs the C's, rather than stand in the corner waiting for something to happen. if you actually watch game 5 and 6, you'll notice at time lebron can't even be found on the TV on offensive sets... he was probably walking back on the other end.

and i don't believe Lebron is mentally weak. He is a very calculating kind of person who doesn't do sh1t if it doesn't help his cause.

[ginobli2311]

his stats are empty because that's all he cares about.

i'd rather see him go out shooting vs the C's, rather than stand in the corner waiting for something to happen. if you actually watch game 5 and 6, you'll notice at time lebron can't even be found on the TV on offensive sets... he was probably walking back on the other end.

and i don't believe Lebron is mentally weak. He is a very calculating kind of person who doesn't do sh1t if it doesn't help his cause.

i completely disagree. you are ignoring that lebron is such a different player than a true scorer. lebron is much more magic than michael. i would much rather have my star player try to do other things than jack up shots if he is having an off night. why are you trying to turn a 10-29 shooting performance when kobe's teammates are playing well and making shots into a positive?

its just not the case. lebron was having a terrible game in game 5 and he chose to only take 14 shots. he still got to the line a lot and did not hog the ball. but regardless it was one awful game....pretty sure every single player in history has played an awful game at some point.

people on this board keep trying to put lebron into the mold of kobe.....and that is just not true. lebron is a completely different type of player and lebron would thrive much more in a situation with actual talent around him so he could play more of a floor general game instead of having to go get 30 every night.

again. lebron scored more efficiently than kobe. he rebounded the ball better. he had a better assists to turnover ratio. he didn't hog the ball. he didn't jack up terrible shots all series. he didn't play as poorly as kobe in the 4th qtrs. he played better defense than kobe. and he didn't no show in the elimination game like kobe did.

come back to reality dude. please come back.

[jrong]

Along with feeding sold-out crowds at the Q with a few loaves of bread and fishes and turning water into beer at the concession stand, one of the most phenomenal feats in LeBron's career is that he still manages to get the media and fans to play the "supporting cast card" for him....

I can just see next year's ESPN playoff post-mortem:

Chris Bosh, acquired in a sign-and-trade by the Cavaliers over the summer failed to materialize as the sidekick for James the team envisioned. The Cavs will spend the summer trying to obtain a new low post superstar , but according to General Manager LeBr...-- er, Chris Grant, they will focus on finding such a player who can play at that level without actually touching the ball....

Given the failure of both Bosh and Cavs front office to provide James support, how can anyone honestly blame James for staging a sit-in protest in the middle of the court at Quicken Loans Arena during the second half of Game 7 of the Eastern Conference Finals and refusing to leave until removed by security long after the new Eastern Conference champions had been crowned?

[The Iron Fist]

Been following the conversation with interest. One the one hand I think SOME of the criticism of Lebron is unwarranted. On the other hand, many of the greats (including Kobe Bryant) have had to go through strenuous and often unfair criticism... so why shouldn't Lebron?

When Kobe had a less talented Laker's team and had to do it all for LA to even stay competitive people on here and in the media (in particular the same people praise Lebron and hate on Kobe now) insisted despite the spectacular individual stats that Kobe was a poor teammate, a bad leader, and that he didn't make his teammates better. Now here we have Lebron James in much the same position only with better teammates and in an easier conference and yet no one has questioned Lebron's ability in the Cav's offense to actually elevate the play of his teammates. Meanwhile Kobe has better teammates, is winning, and is actually getting penalized for this. There are hypocrites on both sides of the equation here.

In my humble opinion, Lebron's demise in the playoffs was due in large part to the fact that Boston was just a better team than the Celtics irrespective of team record. It was also due in less large a part to the Cavs bottleneck offense (and defence) that relied so heavily on Lebron (resulting in boosted stats for Lebron) and took impetus from his teammates. In some small part the loss was also due to Lebron's lack of versatility in offense. Lebron still relies heavily on his athleticism going to the paint and a three ball to mix things up and keep the defence honest. Well really good teams like the Celtics can take away the drive and make the deep three difficult as well. I thought Lebron had games where it was not that he gave up... but that Boston took all the options he was good at away from him. Driving became a turnover waiting to happen and when the drive is taken from Lebron it LOOKS like he isn't trying because he has nothing else to try but launching threes. He can't post up and doesn't have an effective mid range game. Boston did not even have to double and triple him in waves as they did with Kobe because of these limitations in his game.


To add to the bold.

That was also when people said Wade was better than Kobe,


because he won a ring.


But as you've said,

everything is now reversed.

[bongolarry]

Along with feeding sold-out crowds at the Q with a few loaves of bread and fishes and turning water into beer at the concession stand, one of the most phenomenal feats in LeBron's career is that he still manages to get the media and fans to play the "supporting cast card" for him....

I can just see next year's ESPN playoff post-mortem:

Chris Bosh, acquired in a sign-and-trade by the Cavaliers over the summer failed to materialize as the sidekick for James the team envisioned. The Cavs will spend the summer trying to obtain a new low post superstar , but according to General Manager LeBr...-- er, Chris Grant, they will focus on finding such a player who can play at that level without actually touching the ball....

Given the failure of both Bosh and Cavs front office to provide James support, how can anyone honestly blame James for staging a sit-in protest in the middle of the court at Quicken Loans Arena during the second half of Game 7 of the Eastern Conference Finals and refusing to leave until removed by security long after the new Eastern Conference champions had been crowned?

Its sad that that probably took a pretty long time to think up and write and its the stupidiest thing ive ever read in so many different ways.

[Doranku]

Along with feeding sold-out crowds at the Q with a few loaves of bread and fishes and turning water into beer at the concession stand, one of the most phenomenal feats in LeBron's career is that he still manages to get the media and fans to play the "supporting cast card" for him....

I can just see next year's ESPN playoff post-mortem:

Chris Bosh, acquired in a sign-and-trade by the Cavaliers over the summer failed to materialize as the sidekick for James the team envisioned. The Cavs will spend the summer trying to obtain a new low post superstar , but according to General Manager LeBr...-- er, Chris Grant, they will focus on finding such a player who can play at that level without actually touching the ball....

Given the failure of both Bosh and Cavs front office to provide James support, how can anyone honestly blame James for staging a sit-in protest in the middle of the court at Quicken Loans Arena during the second half of Game 7 of the Eastern Conference Finals and refusing to leave until removed by security long after the new Eastern Conference champions had been crowned?

:oldlol: :applause:

[ginobli2311]

To add to the bold.

That was also when people said Wade was better than Kobe,


because he won a ring.


But as you've said,

everything is now reversed.

but lebron is putting up these numbers and winning at a level kobe didn't. that is the difference. kobe put up those numbers on teams with no legit chance to do anything in the playoffs.

[Doranku]

but lebron is putting up these numbers and winning at a level kobe didn't. that is the difference. kobe put up those numbers on teams with no legit chance to do anything in the playoffs.

????????????????

[The Iron Fist]

but lebron is putting up these numbers and winning at a level kobe didn't. that is the difference. kobe put up those numbers on teams with no legit chance to do anything in the playoffs.


Lebron winning at a level Kobe didn't?

What level is that?

Confiscating tapes of when he got banged on?




FOH, it doesn't get any higher than the NBA FINALS. Lebron doesn't have a single win in them.

[The Iron Fist]

????????????????


Exactly, that was about the strangest remark ever.

But then again, you see its from a guy who said he was done with these debates and not even 24 hours later,

hes back.


Thats not exactly the kind of guy whose word you can trust.

[Doranku]

It's funny, people always give LeBron unlimited praise for 'carrying' his team to the '07 finals. Yet, his playoff numbers were:

25/8/8 on 41.6%.

Kobe, as the second option put up better numbers than these in '01-'02. :roll:

29/7/6 on 47%. Oh, and Kobe won a ring that year. So what were you saying about LeBron putting up better numbers and winning more, ginobli? :lol