Breakdown Of Kobe's Game 7

[KingLeBronJames]

This is a great read.

http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2010/6/21/1525036/kobe-bryants-game-7-in-perspective

[Dengness9]

When you gotta write that much, and try that hard to defend something, there's obviously something to try and cover up.


The author of that joke of an article is clearly trying to hide that Kobe played TERRIBLE. Anyone who watched the game knows he was actually hurting the team more than helping.


It became hard to read when the author speculates but talks more "matter of factly" that Boston's D would have shutdown any of the greats, starting w/ MJ!!!

Clown ass read, worth no value and filled with desperation. Whatever helps Laker and Kobe fans hide behind the truth that Bryant came up completely empty in game 7 and his teammates did what he couldn't, and that's win the game.

[jlauber]

This is a great read.

http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2010/6/21/1525036/kobe-bryants-game-7-in-perspective

100% agree. Kobe willed his team to a win. 11-15 FTs and 15 rebounds, in a game in which the winning team scored 83 points speaks volumes. Practically NO ONE shot well in that game.

That Celtic DEFENSE was responsible. It was a testament to Kobe's greatness that he got the job done. And, BTW, Kobe's first game six games of that series was the best played by any player on either team.

He doesn't have to defend his FIFTH ring at all.

[ashbelly]

This is the breakdown of Kobe's Game 7..


http://dbbuildingservice.co.uk/assets/images/bricks.jpg

[Dengness9]

100% agree. Kobe willed his team to a win. 11-15 FTs and 15 rebounds, in a game in which the winning team scored 83 points speaks volumes. Practically NO ONE shot well in that game.

That Celtic DEFENSE was responsible. It was a testament to Kobe's greatness that he got the job done. And, BTW, Kobe's first game six games of that series was the best played by any player on either team.

He doesn't have to defend his FIFTH ring at all.


Jlauber acting like Kobe should be held to the same standards the other players in the series are held to. I thought Kobe was supposed to be a candidate for GOAT????? No excuses in a game 7. You deliver or you don't deliver. His teammates won the game. Not him.

[DetroitPistonFan]

Jlauber acting like Kobe should be held to the same standards the other players in the series are held to. I thought Kobe was supposed to be a candidate for GOAT????? No excuses in a game 7. You deliver or you don't deliver. His teammates won the game. Not him.
Kobe is getting old. He can't deliver at age 31 in the Finals. He has used up all his energy like Jordan did in the 2nd 3peat. They both sucked in the Finals.

[OldSchoolBBall]

More Kobe apologism and rationalization. I've never seen a great player need more defending and excuses than Kobe Bryant. Hysterical how every single poor game, poor year or whatever is always conveniently excused and explained away.

[tpols]

We should get indianguy and ginobli on this post.

They'd prolly sh!t their pants at seeing the use of proper logic. :roll:

[jlauber]

Jlauber acting like Kobe should be held to the same standards the other players in the series are held to. I thought Kobe was supposed to be a candidate for GOAT????? No excuses in a game 7. You deliver or you don't deliver. His teammates won the game. Not him.

You're right. The Lakers won the title this year DESPITE Kobe's performance. You could have put ANYONE else on that roster, and they would have probably gone undefeated.

Kobe had a poor SHOOTING performance. He certainly wasn't the only one, nor is he the only one in Finals history, either. Instead of just packing it in, he got to the line, and even a poor FT shooting game (by his standards), still netted 11 points. And he grabbed 15 rebounds. 23 points, in a game in which 83 was enough. I'll take it. So will LA. And, yes, that is number FIVE for Kobe.

[AK47DR91]

Jlauber acting like Kobe should be held to the same standards the other players in the series are held to. I thought Kobe was supposed to be a candidate for GOAT????? No excuses in a game 7. You deliver or you don't deliver. His teammates won the game. Not him.

Artest's offense and Gasol/Bynum/Bryant's offensive rebounds kept them alive in the 1st half. Gasol had a handful of O-bounds and Kobe had about 3 or 4 himself in the 1st half so you can't say he didn't shhit in the game. His shooting sucked but he help on the bounds THROUGH the entire game.

[magnax1]

He played pretty well, even though he shot terribly. 20-15 isn't a bad game by anyones standards, especially considering he played the best defense of anyone on the floor.

[DetroitPistonFan]

More Kobe apologism and rationalization. I've never seen a great player need more defending and excuses than Kobe Bryant. Hysterical how every single poor game, poor year or whatever is always conveniently excused and explained away.
I hear more excuses for Jordan in during their 2nd repeat than Bryant.

[tpols]

When you gotta write that much, and try that hard to defend something, there's obviously something to try and cover up.


The author of that joke of an article is clearly trying to hide that Kobe played TERRIBLE. Anyone who watched the game knows he was actually hurting the team more than helping.


It became hard to read when the author speculates but talks more "matter of factly" that Boston's D would have shutdown any of the greats, starting w/ MJ!!!

Clown ass read, worth no value and filled with desperation. Whatever helps Laker and Kobe fans hide behind the truth that Bryant came up completely empty in game 7 and his teammates did what he couldn't, and that's win the game.
Did you read the article retard? The lakers took 83 shots to score 83 points. He took 24 shots to score 23 points. If I'm not mistaken, that means he was just as efficient as his team AND he carried the bulk of the scoring load.

[Batz]

When you gotta write that much, and try that hard to defend something, there's obviously something to try and cover up.
You obviously never watched Jordan play and witnessed how the media covered up all of his subpar performances.

[RazorBaLade]

when leb gets reb or makes assists on big plays hes the complete player.....

but it doesnt matter. no shame in doin it 6 times baby

[ashbelly]

did kobe play TERRIBLE ? or had a bad shooting game?

Kobe played TERRIBLE basketball defense
he did not hustle
and he was TERRIBLE in one of the most important aspects of winning basketball games (Rebounding)

TERRIBLE ? give me a f*cking break



http://dbbuildingservice.co.uk/assets/images/bricks.jpg



:roll: :roll: :roll:

[LA KB24]

You obviously never watched Jordan play and witnessed how the media covered up all of his subpar performances.
This. The media loved to shower Jordan with praise.

I wish E$PN shot charts would go back to the MJ days...

[RazorBaLade]

http://dbbuildingservice.co.uk/assets/images/bricks.jpg



:roll: :roll: :roll:

http://cre8tivecartel.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/kobe-hand-post.jpg

the only image that matters

[jlauber]

Kobe needs no defense here. Does anyone think Gasol or Artest were the key players in this year's title defense? Very good players, to be sure...but c'mon. Duncan had a 10-27 game seven. Jordan had a 15-35 game seven. Bird had a 6-18 game seven. Kareem, for cryingoutloud, had a 2-7 game seven.

Did any of those guys return their rings?

[john_d]

in magic and jordan eras. the internet wasn't widely available so haters will probably be preaching in pubs.. and 100% of the time be punched in the mouth as a result.

now we get these crazed lunatics on suicide watch preaching 24/7 on message boards.

[ashbelly]

Can you Break down 10-29 FG in Game 4 ?? :oldlol: :oldlol:

[tpols]

I didn't even like kobe before I joined these forums.

But the kobe haters on ISH are so bad they've created a bias in me toward kobe since I feel I have to defend him in some of their dumbass posts.

SMH

[tpols]

Can you Break down 10-29 FG in Game 4 ?? :oldlol: :oldlol:
Like this kid would get laid out if he was at a bar in LA talking shit like this. Total p!ssy.:banghead:

[zizozain]

now they are here (of course) .. MJ stans and other haters: get this

it's possible that he will
-play 60,000 minutes (regular season plus playoffs),
-score 35,000 points (the most by any guard ever),
-play 250-plus playoff games (the record is 244),
-pass 6,000 playoff points (also a record)
-win seven titles .
-lead the Lakers the to be the team with most NBA championship titles.

and If he plays at a high level through his late 30s,
he has a real chance to pass Kareem’s 38,387 points
--------
i don't blame you, even MJ's sons are panicking :roll:
A sudden, overpowering terror, often affecting many people at once.

laker/kobe fans ... attacks are going to be worse. get used to it

[ashbelly]

[QUOTE=zizozain]now they are here (of course) .. MJ stans and other haters: get this

it's possible that he will
-play 60,000 minutes (regular season plus playoffs),
-score 35,000 points (the most by any guard ever),
-play 250-plus playoff games (the record is 244),
-pass 6,000 playoff points (also a record)
-win seven titles .
-lead the Lakers the to be the team with most NBA championship titles.

and If he plays at a high level through his late 30s,
he has a real chance to pass Kareem

[The Iron Fist]

The Lakers didn't even need Kobe.

They would have gone 82 and 0 without him.

He was more of a detriment than anything.

They should trade him for a new hot dog vendor.

[ashbelly]

The Lakers didn't even need Kobe.

They would have gone 82 and 0 without him.

He was more of a detriment than anything.

They should trade him for a new hot dog vendor.


Probably true, they can get a younger wade and that would mean more rings for them. :bowdown: :bowdown:

[lefthook00]

More Kobe apologism and rationalization. I've never seen a great player need more defending and excuses than Kobe Bryant. Hysterical how every single poor game, poor year or whatever is always conveniently excused and explained away.

That's true. But it's never KOBE making those excuses, it's always his fans. He's definitely an OldSchoolBBall player, a throwback.

[The Iron Fist]

More Kobe apologism and rationalization. I've never seen a great player need more defending and excuses than Kobe Bryant. Hysterical how every single poor game, poor year or whatever is always conveniently excused and explained away.


I guess you've been staying out of Cavs and Lebron threads for the past two years eh?

[jlauber]

[QUOTE=zizozain]now they are here (of course) .. MJ stans and other haters: get this

it's possible that he will
-play 60,000 minutes (regular season plus playoffs),
-score 35,000 points (the most by any guard ever),
-play 250-plus playoff games (the record is 244),
-pass 6,000 playoff points (also a record)
-win seven titles .
-lead the Lakers the to be the team with most NBA championship titles.

and If he plays at a high level through his late 30s,
he has a real chance to pass Kareem

[zizozain]

Like this kid would get laid out if he was at a bar in LA talking shit like this. Total p!ssy.:banghead:
since you are new that kid is another account of (pleezblieve), he is the biggest troll/hater on ISH. but that is not the problem

the problem is that he is the dumbest too. and some psychiatric disorders
don't take my word for it .. ask every single ISH member .. sad

[The Iron Fist]

since you are new that kid is another account of (pleezblieve), he is the biggest troll/hater on ISH. but that is not the problem

the problem is that he is the dumbest too. and some psychiatric disorders
don't take my word for it .. ask every single ISH member .. sad


I don't know,

theres another kid using Manus name thats pretty bad as well.

"Lebron has won at a higher level than Kobe".

[tpols]

I don't know,

theres another kid using Manus name thats pretty bad as well.

"Lebron has won at a higher level than Kobe".
thing is that ashbelly and some other guys are actually trolling/trying to piss people off.

Ginobli actually thinks he's like a professor of basketball and master of logic in his kobe threads lolz.

[The Iron Fist]

thing is that ashbelly and some other guys are actually trolling/trying to piss people off.

Ginobli actually thinks he's like a professor of basketball and master of logic in his kobe threads lolz.


lol, imo, that makes gino worse.

At least a troll knows his lane. The fake Kobe fan actually thinks he makes good points.

[Fatal9]

Excellent post. Having said that, though,...just look at Kobe's career TODAY.

One MVP (and should have been more.) Two Finals MVPs (and yes, he was the mosr deserving player in each.) Seven Finals appearances. FIVE rings. One of the greatest scoring seasons in NBA history (35.4 ppg in a league that averaged 97.) An 81 point. A 62 point game, in which he outscored the Mavs (a team that was 18-6 coming in...and would go on to the Finals), 62-61, after three quarters.

AND, while he was not the KEY reason LA won in the "three-peat", he played brilliantly against the Spurs (even AFTER Shaq left BTW.)

His career is ALREADY Top-10. He will just climb higher before he retires.

Not to mention three 40+ ppg months (only Wilt and Baylor have done that, and Wilt is the only other player ever to do it multiple times). Think about that, nearly 45 years, and NO ONE, not Kareem, not MJ, not anyone in their high scoring seasons could get at that scoring level. And can you really call nine 40+ pt games in a row a coincidence? He did it because he wanted to prove he could. Then when Phil asked him to start shooting because the Lakers were on a losing streak he had 65, 50, 60, 50, 43 and then 53 again a couple of nights later. Think about how good you have to be do have a scoring gear like that just because your coach finally gave you the green light.

He has one of the most successful and great 3 year runs in history. Has dominant playoff series that stack up against anyone (except Kareem and MJ probably).

And even in this game, he stepped up in fourth by scoring 10 pts, and creating at least 6-7 other pts (through getting his teammates on line or assisting), and also dominated the boards. Like I've said before, it was very reminiscent of MJ's game 7 when he shot 9/25...he still found a way to win out of a bad shooting night by rebounding, getting to the line and creating plays.

[The Iron Fist]

Not to mention three 40+ ppg months (only Wilt and Baylor have done that, and Wilt is the only other player ever to do it multiple times). Think about that, nearly 45 years, and NO ONE, not Kareem, not MJ, not anyone in their high scoring seasons could get at that scoring level. And can you really call nine 40+ pt games in a row a coincidence? He did it because he wanted to prove he could. Then when Phil asked him to start shooting because the Lakers were on a losing streak he had 65, 50, 60, 50, 43 and then 53 again a couple of nights later. Think about how good you have to be do have a scoring gear like that just because your coach finally gave you the green light.

He has one of the most successful and great 3 year runs in history. Has dominant playoff series that stack up against anyone (except Kareem and MJ probably).

And even in this game, he stepped up in fourth by scoring 10 pts, and creating at least 6-7 other pts (through getting his teammates on line or assisting), and also dominated the boards. Like I've said before, it was very reminiscent of MJ's game 7 when he shot 9/25...he still found a way to win out of a bad shooting night by rebounding, getting to the line and creating plays.


BUT LEBRON PLAYED A BETTER GAME IN 08 AGAINST THE CELTICS:rant :rant :rant

[sayitaintso]

He got 15 boards that game, 4 less than what LeBron did in his playoff exit.

[All Net]

He got 15 boards that game, 4 less than what LeBron did in his playoff exit.

Lebron also had 10 less wins in the playoffs than Kobe did.

:rolleyes:

Only Kobe could have so many freaking threads about him about his shooting performance when he WON THE FREAKING TITLE!! if he lost fine, but he won the title AGAIN. The fact this is being disussed so much is a joke.

[The Iron Fist]

Lebron also had 10 less wins in the playoffs than Kobe did.

:rolleyes:

Only Kobe could have so many freaking threads about him about his shooting performance when he WON THE FREAKING TITLE!! if he lost fine, but he won the title AGAIN. The fact this is being disussed so much is a joke.


Imagine if the Lakers had lost?


Its so funny how all the focus is on Kobes shooting performance too. As if that was his only contribution.

Some people just love to make asses out of themselves in public.

[Batz]

I guess you've been staying out of Cavs and Lebron threads for the past two years eh?
4 actually.


2007 - Finals embarrassment
2008 - vs. Celtics
2009 - vs. Magic
2010 - vs. Celtics again


Before that he doing pretty damn good. But then media pressure got to him I guess... :confusedshrug:

[All Net]

Imagine if the Lakers had lost?


Its so funny how all the focus is on Kobes shooting performance too. As if that was his only contribution.

Some people just love to make asses out of themselves in public.

I know, I hate to think

All this talk about Kobe to me is disrespectful to the rest of the team who won the title.

[ashbelly]

I know, I hate to think

All this talk about Kobe to me is disrespectful to the rest of the team who actually won the game.


:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[AK47DR91]

4 actually.


2007 - Finals embarrassment
2008 - vs. Celtics
2009 - vs. Magic
2010 - vs. Celtics again


Before that he doing pretty damn good. But then media pressure got to him I guess... :confusedshrug:

He didn't quit in that series though. Dude actually put up a fight that year.

I'd say he was doing fine from 2003-08 b/c he showed us all what he is capable off on the court. And he was still playing with some heart and hunger even when his teams were losing.

But last two playoff exits vs Orlando and Boston seems like he just quit and stopped trying when the other teams were too dominating.

[ashbelly]

I know, I hate to think

All this talk about Kobe to me is disrespectful to the rest of the team who actually won the game.


:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[FlashDwyaneWade3]

Great article. :applause:

[mamba24]

I didn't even like kobe before I joined these forums.

But the kobe haters on ISH are so bad they've created a bias in me toward kobe since I feel I have to defend him in some of their dumbass posts.

SMH

The funny bit is, these haters just keep hating and fighting with bandwagon fans. True laker fans dont care what they say. We want to tie boston, kobe will take care of his legacy we only care about the laker legacy.

As a Laker fan i dont know how great Kobe will be, Maybe top 3, maybe not. but he's writing his own legacy.

he openly says he has shaped his game from the legends, yet everyone says kobe imitating MJ. Even his celebrations are MJ's...cmon i mean whats he supposed to do not jump with joy?

MJ retired over 7 years ago yet he's still in every comparism. MJ never says a word about kobe, he stated a few years back the only player in the league he likes watching is kobe as it reminds him of him.

MJ is not insecure like shaq, he knows what his legacy is. Even With 6 titles kobe will be at best second to MJ. but these guys will do anything to make Dalembert to sound as clutch as kobe.

[Lamar Doom]

This is a great read.

http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2010/6/21/1525036/kobe-bryants-game-7-in-perspective


Shouldn't we celebrating and marveling at what Kobe was able to do to overcome his his shooting woes, rather than picking holes in a game that was, ultimately, worthy of a champion?

hahaha, asking ISH to enjoy the game or the player for what it is!! can you imagine? this is "see-what-you-want-to-see central" aka "land of the stupid, shitty fans". good luck pal.

[momo]

Man... a lot of verbiage here.

I think it is simple if one does not have some douche nozzle agenda.

He started the game too geeked up, tryed forcing it, changed course and went to the rack and the glass and salvaged what could have been a poor game on the offensive side of the ball into a serviceable game.

NO ONE on the lakes had a good offensive game! They all played stellar D, especially in the 4th Q, KB included. But man... give the Celt D some credit. Ron ron produced very well for the lakes. Poor shooting %. Did anyone shoot above 50% for the lakes?

[Doranku]

Man... a lot of verbiage here.

I think it is simple if one does not have some douche nozzle agenda.

He started the game too geeked up, tryed forcing it, changed course and went to the rack and the glass and salvaged what could have been a poor game on the offensive side of the ball into a serviceable game.

NO ONE on the lakes had a good offensive game! They all played stellar D, especially in the 4th Q, KB included. But man... give the Celt D some credit. Ron ron produced very well for the lakes. Poor shooting %. Did anyone shoot above 50% for the lakes?

Fish, I think that was it.

[EricForman]

100% agree. Kobe willed his team to a win. 11-15 FTs and 15 rebounds, in a game in which the winning team scored 83 points speaks volumes. Practically NO ONE shot well in that game.

That Celtic DEFENSE was responsible. It was a testament to Kobe's greatness that he got the job done. And, BTW, Kobe's first game six games of that series was the best played by any player on either team.

He doesn't have to defend his FIFTH ring at all.


kobe deserve credit for overcoming hsi own bad shooting and initial selfish-play. he redeemed HIMSELF and willed HIMSELF to perform better. But "willed the team"??? PLEASE. How did Kobe will Artest into dropping a 20-5-5, including almost single handedly keeping the Lakers in it first half, and how did Kobe will Pau Gasol's dominance down the stretch (big blocks on Pierce, KG, big rebounds down the stretch, that huge dagger shot where he landed before he shot)?

Come on now.

[RazorBaLade]

kobe deserve credit for overcoming hsi own bad shooting and initial selfish-play. he redeemed HIMSELF and willed HIMSELF to perform better. But "willed the team"??? PLEASE. How did Kobe will Artest into dropping a 20-5-5, including almost single handedly keeping the Lakers in it first half, and how did Kobe will Pau Gasol's dominance down the stretch (big blocks on Pierce, KG, big rebounds down the stretch, that huge dagger shot where he landed before he shot)?

Come on now.

maybe with defense, hustle, motivation, rebounding? 6/10 shots with space la gets are entirely because kobe is on the floor regardless of what hes doing

[Duncan21formvp]

Manu played well in Game 7 of the Finals in a 81-74 final score.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200506230SAS.html

[sosolid4u09]

seriously where is GINIBLI2311 now??

I would LOVE to see what he thinks of this article? he loves stats and box scores so much this article is written in his language

[momo]

Fish, I think that was it.

Yep, true.

[ashbelly]

I know, I hate to think

All this talk about Kobe to me is disrespectful to the rest of the team who actually won the game.




:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[crisoner]

Haters trying to fish for reasons to put Kobe down after the man won his 5th ring and 2nd MVP title. Not to mention this was back to back a feat that Duncan, Bird, The KG Celtics, etc. has not been able to do.

Let's look down the list of what the nay-sayers said and the reality of what happened.

Kobe will never win a scoring title - check
Kobe will never win an NBA MVP - check
Kobe will never lead the Lakers out of the first round of the playoffs - check
Kobe will never lead the Lakers to the Finals as the number one option - check
Kobe will never win a title without Shaq - check
Kobe will never beat the Celtics in the Finals - check
Kobe lead team will not repeat - check


After all that here is what all the haters say....

Kobe played horrible in game 7 because he missed all those shots
Kobe is a rapist

Same ol BS......dude got his 5th ring along with D-Fish. You cowards need to start showing some respect.

[ashbelly]

Haters trying to fish for reasons to put Kobe down after the man won his 5th ring and 2nd MVP title. Not to mention this was back to back a feat that Duncan, Bird, The KG Celtics, etc. has not been able to do.

Let's look down the list of what the nay-sayers said and the reality of what happened.

Kobe will never win a scoring title - check
Kobe will never win an NBA MVP - check
Kobe will never lead the Lakers out of the first round of the playoffs - check
Kobe will never lead the Lakers to the Finals as the number one option - check
Kobe will never win a title without Shaq - check
Kobe will never beat the Celtics in the Finals - check
Kobe lead team will not repeat - check


After all that here is what all the haters say....

Kobe played horrible in game 7 because he missed all those shots
Kobe is a rapist

Same ol BS......dude got his 5th ring along with D-Fish. You cowards need to start showing some respect.


respect is earned.. there is a reason why people don't respect it. But congratulations on his 5th ring and back to back mvp.. :applause: :roll:

[Vragrant]

For me, this is Bryants career in a nutshell.

Extremely talented, an all time great yet ridiculously overrated and overhyped.

[LBJMVP]

4 actually.


2007 - Finals embarrassment
2008 - vs. Celtics
2009 - vs. Magic
2010 - vs. Celtics again


Before that he doing pretty damn good. But then media pressure got to him I guess... :confusedshrug:





07 he was a one man team
since in 08 he played a great series against boston
09 he played one of the best series in nba history against orlando
and in 2010 he apparentaly quit yet played better than kobe

[Allstar24]

Haters trying to fish for reasons to put Kobe down after the man won his 5th ring and 2nd MVP title. Not to mention this was back to back a feat that Duncan, Bird, The KG Celtics, etc. has not been able to do.

Let's look down the list of what the nay-sayers said and the reality of what happened.

Kobe will never win a scoring title - check
Kobe will never win an NBA MVP - check
Kobe will never lead the Lakers out of the first round of the playoffs - check
Kobe will never lead the Lakers to the Finals as the number one option - check
Kobe will never win a title without Shaq - check
Kobe will never beat the Celtics in the Finals - check
Kobe lead team will not repeat - check


After all that here is what all the haters say....

Kobe played horrible in game 7 because he missed all those shots
Kobe is a rapist

Same ol BS......dude got his 5th ring along with D-Fish. You cowards need to start showing some respect.
Here's the thing, he IS getting the respect that he deserves. I expected more media backlash because they usually watch boxscores rather than the game itself but it hasn't been that bad. More importantly, Jerry West called him the best Laker of all time, Magic Johnson called him the best player in the league, Gasol said the same thing...he is getting respect from PEOPLE WHO MATTER. Who cares what these nobodies on the internet think? :oldlol:

It's pretty obvious that Kobe was the best player in the series. Gasol was just as great but Kobe was the main focus of the Celt's D so he gets a little more credit. He did not have a horrible Game 7. Both sides were awful in shooting the ball...that game was won defensively and Kobe was great on defense with his 15 rebounds. He also scored 10 pts in the 4th quarter, when it mattered. The knuckleheads on ISH are too obsessed with shot attempts. Kobe didn't just quit because his shot wasn't falling, he contributed in other areas because there are more ways to win a game. WE saw that because we watched the game...anyone who denies that is stupid. He deserved to win the Finals MVP because it was given to the best player for the entire series, not just Game 7.

[Disaprine]

74-8
yes we already know what your really saying pleasegodletmesucklebronsballs.

[crisoner]

respect is earned.. there is a reason why people don't respect it. But congratulations on his 5th ring and back to back mvp.. :applause: :roll:

Respect is earned?

So leading your team to back to back titles does not earn your respect?
Wow.

[crisoner]

For me, this is Bryants career in a nutshell.

Extremely talented, an all time great yet ridiculously overrated and overhyped.


Overrated and Overhyped?

How? How so? The dude just won back to back titles as the main option for his team correct? Yet he is overhyped while the rest of the world calls another player the King and Chosen One (which he has tattooed on his back) and Kobe earns that credit? Give me a f*cking break. I know you people hate him but respect what he has done.

[Soothsayer]

Like this kid would get laid out if he was at a bar in LA talking shit like this. Total p!ssy.:banghead:

Sure, that's 34%, better than a third of Kobe's shooting games in the finals!

:lol

[Soothsayer]

Can you Break down 10-29 FG in Game 4 ?? :oldlol: :oldlol:

Sure, I can break it down. That's 34.4%, as good or better than a full third of Kobe's shooting games in the finals, yet that 10-29 is one of only 3 games in the finals in which Jordan shot 35% or less.

[Soothsayer]

kobe deserve credit for overcoming hsi own bad shooting and initial selfish-play. he redeemed HIMSELF and willed HIMSELF to perform better. But "willed the team"??? PLEASE. How did Kobe will Artest into dropping a 20-5-5, including almost single handedly keeping the Lakers in it first half, and how did Kobe will Pau Gasol's dominance down the stretch (big blocks on Pierce, KG, big rebounds down the stretch, that huge dagger shot where he landed before he shot)?

Come on now.


This.

And Kobe knows it.

After the game, he credited his team for lifting HIM up, not the other way around. In a way, they willed HIM to the win.

Gasol in many ways, advanced analytics included, was more valuable than Kobe was in this series.

[Disaprine]

This.

And Kobe knows it.

After the game, he credited his team for lifting HIM up, not the other way around. In a way, they willed HIM to the win.

Gasol in many ways, advanced analytics included, was more valuable than Kobe was in this series
:oldlol:

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/5025/cmonson.jpg

[Soothsayer]

:oldlol:

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/5025/cmonson.jpg

Finals advanced stats:

Offensive Rating:
Pau: 122.7
Kobe: 107.7

Defensive Rating:
Pau: 100.3
Kobe: 98.9

TS%:
Pau: 55.6
Kobe: 52.8

VORP (value over replacement player):
Pau: 9.32
Kobe: 7.53
(This means Pau was more superior to an average PF than Kobe was to an average SG)

Win Shares:
Pau: 1.52
Kobe: 1.14
(For comparison, Pippen never averaged more win shares than Jordan for a regular season, playoffs, or finals).

[Disaprine]

offensive rating? defensive rating? vorp? winshares :roll: :roll: :roll:
your trying way to hard man. :roll:

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/multimedia/photo_gallery/1006/NBAFinalsKobeMVP/images/04_kobe_billruss.jpg

just except it man.

jordan is way better than kobe in every catogory in life period

does that make you feel better? :lol

[Soothsayer]

offensive rating? defensive rating? vorp? winshares :roll: :roll: :roll:
your trying way to hard man. :roll:

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/multimedia/photo_gallery/1006/NBAFinalsKobeMVP/images/04_kobe_billruss.jpg

just except it man.

jordan is way better than kobe in every catogory in life period

does that make you feel better? :lol


I don't have to "try" at all, those stats are there for every player, in every game. It's just reality, and the stats almost always reflect what we already know.
In this case, the advanced stats contradict (in many ways) what many people think--that Kobe was the finals mvp, that Gasol wasn't in the picture.

It is rare for a player who did NOT win finals mvp to lead the team in win shares. I'll look it up to see if it has ever happened before.

[tpols]

Finals advanced stats:

Offensive Rating:
Pau: 122.7
Kobe: 107.7

Defensive Rating:
Pau: 100.3
Kobe: 98.9

TS%:
Pau: 55.6
Kobe: 52.8

VORP (value over replacement player):
Pau: 9.32
Kobe: 7.53
(This means Pau was more superior to an average PF than Kobe was to an average SG)

Win Shares:
Pau: 1.52
Kobe: 1.14
(For comparison, Pippen never averaged more win shares than Jordan for a regular season, playoffs, or finals).
Kobe Bryant-200 points
Pau Gasol- 130 points

Kobe Bryant- 27 assists
Pau Gasol- 26 assists

Kobe Bryant- 56 rebounds (second on his team)
Pau Gasol- 81 rebounds

So, for the series, Kobe outscored the second place finisher in points by 70. That's 10 ppg more. He also beat Gasol in 2 out of 3 of the most important categories while drawing more defensive attention. :confusedshrug:

Haters need to fall back.

[Doranku]

I don't have to "try" at all, those stats are there for every player, in every game. It's just reality, and the stats almost always reflect what we already know.
In this case, the advanced stats contradict (in many ways) what many people think--that Kobe was the finals mvp, that Gasol wasn't in the picture.

It is rare for a player who did NOT win finals mvp to lead the team in win shares. I'll look it up to see if it has ever happened before.


When Kobe 3-peats again next year, will you please slowly kill yourself? :D

[Soothsayer]

Kobe Bryant-200 points
Pau Gasol- 130 points

Kobe Bryant- 27 assists
Pau Gasol- 26 assists

Kobe Bryant- 56 rebounds (second on his team)
Pau Gasol- 81 rebounds

So, for the series, Kobe outscored the second place finisher in points by 70. That's 10 ppg more. He also beat Gasol in 2 out of 3 of the most important categories while drawing more defensive attention. :confusedshrug:

Haters need to fall back.


Thank you for making my point even stronger.
Kobe outscored Pau, but on FAR less efficiency, potentially hurting his team by doing so.
Pau outrebounded Kobe by a HUGE margin.
Pau had basically the same assists as Kobe despite having the ball in his hands FAR less.
Kobe had more steals, Pau had more blocks.
Pau blows Kobe away in advanced stats.
Finals mvp could have easily gone to Pau.

Only time I have ever found where the player NOT winning finals mvp had the highest win shares.

[Soothsayer]

When Kobe 3-peats again next year, will you please slowly kill yourself? :D

You first.

[tpols]

Thank you for making my point even stronger.
Kobe outscored Pau, but on FAR less efficiency, potentially hurting his team by doing so.
Pau outrebounded Kobe by a HUGE margin.
Pau had basically the same assists as Kobe despite having the ball in his hands FAR less.
Kobe had more steals, Pau had more blocks.
Pau blows Kobe away in advanced stats.
Finals mvp could have easily gone to Pau.

Only time I have ever found where the player NOT winning finals mvp had the highest win shares.
But everyone on this forum would agree that the lakers would easily lose this series without kobe. If he's hurting the team then how come this statement is true?

[Soothsayer]

But everyone on this forum would agree that the lakers would easily lose this series without kobe. If he's hurting the team then how come this statement is true?


Did you see the VORP stat? Value over replacement player.
Pau was 9.3
Kobe was 7.5

Replace Pau with an average power forward and the lakers are worse than if you replace Kobe with an average shooting guard, especially considering that Kobe's one redeeming factor, clutchness, never showed up, shooting 24% in the fourth quarter for the series.

[Braincells]

Did you see the VORP stat? Value over replacement player.
Pau was 9.3
Kobe was 7.5

Replace Pau with an average power forward and the lakers are worse than if you replace Kobe with an average shooting guard, especially considering that Kobe's one redeeming factor, clutchness, never showed up, shooting 24% in the fourth quarter for the series.

Because, once again, winning the games came down to the shooting percentages right? The team that won the defensive and rebounding battle won the game. Kobe outrebounded Garnett and Wallace combined and that's something you can never say about Jordan. As far as shooting percentage in the fourth, didn't he score 10 of his 23 points in the fourth?

Jordan always had the luxury of going up against crappy defenses while Kobe has gone up against all time NBA defenses. Even when Jordan went up against terrible defenses, he put up abysmal percentages.

[tpols]

Did you see the VORP stat? Value over replacement player.
Pau was 9.3
Kobe was 7.5

Replace Pau with an average power forward and the lakers are worse than if you replace Kobe with an average shooting guard, especially considering that Kobe's one redeeming factor, clutchness, never showed up, shooting 24% in the fourth quarter for the series.
Dude, you can't use stats to determine whose more valuable to the team. Kobe's defense on Rondo probably won them the series. Kobe was doing all the little things it took to win. Kobe drew a lot more double and triple teams that opened the court up for everybody else. These all don't go into that rating and were absolutly essential aspects of the lakers victory. Not to mention he was the team's vocal leader while Pau Gasol can barely speak english, let alone lead the team.

[Soothsayer]

Because, once again, winning the games came down to the shooting percentages right? The team that won the defensive and rebounding battle won the game. Kobe outrebounded Garnett and Wallace combined and that's something you can never say about Jordan. As far as shooting percentage in the fourth, didn't he score 10 of his 23 points in the fourth?

Jordan always had the luxury of going up against crappy defenses while Kobe has gone up against all time NBA defenses. Even when Jordan went up against terrible defenses, he put up abysmal percentages.


24% 4th quarter FG% is horrid, especially for a supposed GOAT candidate, whose primary benefit over Pau is that he is "clutch".

Pau had a 9.3 VORP
Kobe had a 7.5 VORP

That means Pau was more superior in the finals to an average PF than Kobe was compared to an average SG.

And yes, Garnett was pitiful on the boards. Wallace is old and hurt.
Kobe's rebounding obviously benefitted from Perkins being out, and Bynum being injured and only playing 18 minutes.

And no, Jordan did not have the luxury of going up against crappy defenses.
He faced 3 TOP 5 defenses in the finals, faced the #1 ranked Defense of the celtics in the 80s, faced the top rated defense of the Pistons year after year, and had to make it through the insanely tough defenses of the 90s knicks and Heat.

Jordan in the 90s in the playoffs vs. top 5 defenses: 46.6% FG, higher than Kobe's regular season, playoff, or finals FG% vs. ALL defenses.

Jordan's Finals FG% is 48.2% vs. 41% for Kobe.

Jordan's WORST finals FG% of 41.5% is better than Kobe's career finals FG% AVERAGE.

No comparison.

[tpols]

24% 4th quarter FG% is horrid, especially for a supposed GOAT candidate, whose primary benefit over Pau is that he is "clutch".

Pau had a 9.3 VORP
Kobe had a 7.5 VORP

That means Pau was more superior in the finals to an average PF than Kobe was compared to an average SG.

And yes, Garnett was pitiful on the boards. Wallace is old and hurt.
Kobe's rebounding obviously benefitted from Perkins being out, and Bynum being injured and only playing 18 minutes.

And no, Jordan did not have the luxury of going up against crappy defenses.
He faced 3 TOP 5 defenses in the finals, faced the #1 ranked Defense of the celtics in the 80s, faced the top rated defense of the Pistons year after year, and had to make it through the insanely tough defenses of the 90s knicks and Heat.

Jordan in the 90s in the playoffs vs. top 5 defenses: 46.6% FG, higher than Kobe's regular season, playoff, or finals FG% vs. ALL defenses.

Jordan's Finals FG% is 48.2% vs. 41% for Kobe.

Jordan's WORST finals FG% of 41.5% is better than Kobe's career finals FG% AVERAGE.

No comparison.
Did you read the article? According to the defensive ratings kobe HAS gone up against tougher defenses as the main man than jordan did. Your agenda starting to show brah.:roll:

[Soothsayer]

Dude, you can't use stats to determine whose more valuable to the team. Kobe's defense on Rondo probably won them the series. Kobe was doing all the little things it took to win. Kobe drew a lot more double and triple teams that opened the court up for everybody else. These all don't go into that rating and were absolutly essential aspects of the lakers victory. Not to mention he was the team's vocal leader while Pau Gasol can barely speak english, let alone lead the team.


I watch all the games.

Stats almost always confirm what we see when we watch the games.

In this case, stats contradict what many Kobe fans think, and what the media preached.

Pau had a strong case as finals mvp, posting more win shares than Kobe. This might be the only time a player who won finals mvp came in 2nd on this team in win shares. I'm researching it.

Having watched the series, I thought Pau needed to touch the ball more, and Kobe less. Kobe shot more, shot more poorly, and stole the ball more than Pau. That's about it.
Pau was more efficient, more rebounds, blocks, etc.
Pau was more consistent. At times Kobe helped his team more than Pau did, but in many instances, Kobe HURT his team far more than Pau did.

[Braincells]

24% 4th quarter FG% is horrid, especially for a supposed GOAT candidate, whose primary benefit over Pau is that he is "clutch".

Pau had a 9.3 VORP
Kobe had a 7.5 VORP

That means Pau was more superior in the finals to an average PF than Kobe was compared to an average SG.

And yes, Garnett was pitiful on the boards. Wallace is old and hurt.
Kobe's rebounding obviously benefitted from Perkins being out, and Bynum being injured and only playing 18 minutes.

And no, Jordan did not have the luxury of going up against crappy defenses.
He faced 3 TOP 5 defenses in the finals, faced the #1 ranked Defense of the celtics in the 80s, faced the top rated defense of the Pistons year after year, and had to make it through the insanely tough defenses of the 90s knicks and Heat.

Jordan in the 90s in the playoffs vs. top 5 defenses: 46.6% FG, higher than Kobe's regular season, playoff, or finals FG% vs. ALL defenses.

Jordan's Finals FG% is 48.2% vs. 41% for Kobe.

Jordan's WORST finals FG% of 41.5% is better than Kobe's career finals FG% AVERAGE.

No comparison.

Because it all comes down to offensive numbers right? Now you make up excuses by saying Garnett is old or Wallace is hurt, wasn't Kobe playing with 3 different injuries? 15 rebounds in a close-out game is ridiculous, especially considering the team that won the rebounding battle won the games. It's clear that no matter how many points Kobe scored, the game was going to be decided by defense -- he'll he could have shot 50% but if he and his team didn't rebound the ball or play defense, it was a loss. Typical MJ stan. Kobe's ring totals may exceed Jordan's and you are going to shit your pants when it happens. I can't wait.

The Celtics and Pistons historic rank is top 5 all time, Jordan NEVER faced the level of defenses of those teams in the finals period. If he did they probably would have shut him down much in the same way the glove shut him down in the finals. Let's face it, Jordan threw up absolute stinkers in his second three peat and he faced crappy defenses to boot.

Forget Jordan, Kobe is chasing Russell with 11.

[Braincells]

I watch all the games.

Stats almost always confirm what we see when we watch the games.

In this case, stats contradict what many Kobe fans think, and what the media preached.

Pau had a strong case as finals mvp, posting more win shares than Kobe. This might be the only time a player who won finals mvp came in 2nd on this team in win shares. I'm researching it.

Having watched the series, I thought Pau needed to touch the ball more, and Kobe less. Kobe shot more, shot more poorly, and stole the ball more than Pau. That's about it.
Pau was more efficient, more rebounds, blocks, etc.
Pau was more consistent. At times Kobe helped his team more than Pau did, but in many instances, Kobe HURT his team far more than Pau did.

Kobe would have won the finals MVP even if the Lakers lost, Gasol has to show up on the road to even be considered for it. That was the general consensus with the media and the announcers.

[tpols]

I watch all the games.

Stats almost always confirm what we see when we watch the games.

In this case, stats contradict what many Kobe fans think, and what the media preached.

Pau had a strong case as finals mvp, posting more win shares than Kobe. This might be the only time a player who won finals mvp came in 2nd on this team in win shares. I'm researching it.

Having watched the series, I thought Pau needed to touch the ball more, and Kobe less. Kobe shot more, shot more poorly, and stole the ball more than Pau. That's about it.
Pau was more efficient, more rebounds, blocks, etc.
Pau was more consistent. At times Kobe helped his team more than Pau did, but in many instances, Kobe HURT his team far more than Pau did.
I'm going to work. I can't even argue with this kid anymore. You're just too agenda based man. I wish I had the time to explain how the game of basketball works to you but obviously all you care about is nitpicking what stats fit your agenda.

When you want to come back to reality we can talk.

[Soothsayer]

Did you read the article? According to the defensive ratings kobe HAS gone up against tougher defenses as the main man than jordan did. Your agenda starting to show brah.:roll:


Yep, I read the article.
It only mentions finals opponents, not opponents faced in the playoffs before the finals.

Jordan faced the Pistons, Knicks, and Heat in his own conference, and they were often the best defenses.

Jordan faced many defenses with a better Drtg than the 2010 celts at 103.8.

1998 Pacers: 101.6
1997 Heat: 100.6
1997 Hawks: 102.3
1996 Sonics: 102.1
1996 Knicks: 103.5
1996 Heat: 103.8
1993 Knicks: 99.7

As well, the 92 blazers with a Drtg of 104.2 and the 97 Jazz at 104.0 are nearly identical to the 2010 Celts at 103.8.

As well, Jordan shot better vs. top defenses than Kobe does.
Jordan's .464% vs. top 5 defenses in the playoffs from 91-98 is better than Kobe's career vs. ALL defenses in the regular season, playoffs, or finals.

Learn to do your own research and think you yourself.

[Braincells]

I'm going to work. I can't even argue with this kid anymore. You're just too agenda based man. I wish I had the time to explain how the game of basketball works to you but obviously all you care about is nitpicking what stats fit your agenda.

When you want to come back to reality we can talk.

Just come back when Kobe wins another one. I'd be surprised if he's still here posting.

[mark]

This is a great read.

http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2010/6/21/1525036/kobe-bryants-game-7-in-perspective


Kobe's game 7, it was all set because Bynum injured Perkins intentionally. Lakers would have lost readily if Perkins was in the game, instead they intentionally hurt him.

[Soothsayer]

Because it all comes down to offensive numbers right? Now you make up excuses by saying Garnett is old or Wallace is hurt, wasn't Kobe playing with 3 different injuries? 15 rebounds in a close-out game is ridiculous, especially considering the team that won the rebounding battle won the games. It's clear that no matter how many points Kobe scored, the game was going to be decided by defense -- he'll he could have shot 50% but if he and his team didn't rebound the ball or play defense, it was a loss. Typical MJ stan. Kobe's ring totals may exceed Jordan's and you are going to shit your pants when it happens. I can't wait.

The Celtics and Pistons historic rank is top 5 all time, Jordan NEVER faced the level of defenses of those teams in the finals period. If he did they probably would have shut him down much in the same way the glove shut him down in the finals. Let's face it, Jordan threw up absolute stinkers in his second three peat and he faced crappy defenses to boot.

Forget Jordan, Kobe is chasing Russell with 11.


Are you blind? In the advanced stats, I mentioned defensive rating.
Finals Drtg:
Pau: 100
Kobe: 99

Offensive rating:
Pau: 122
Kobe: 107

So they were nearly identical defensively, with Pau being superior offensively.
Perkins was out, the Celts were missing their starting center. I'm sure he would have accounted for a few rebounds, had he been there. ;)

Regardless, Pau has a large edge on Kobe when it comes to rebounding as well.

And yes, Jordan FREQUENTLY faced defenses as good or better than that of the 2010 Celtics: 90s knicks, Heat, Bad boy pistons, 96 sonics, 98 pacers, etc. Do your research kid.

Jordan shot 46.4% vs. top 5 defenses in the playoffs in the 90s. That is higher than Kobe's FG% vs. ALL defenses for his carer in the regular season, playoffs, or finals.

[Allstar24]

Who the f*ck is this Soothsayer clown? Must be the alternate account of some troll with an agenda. It looks like he can put together coherent sentences but in reality, he makes about as much sense as ashbelly...as in zero.

[Soothsayer]

I'm going to work. I can't even argue with this kid anymore. You're just too agenda based man. I wish I had the time to explain how the game of basketball works to you but obviously all you care about is nitpicking what stats fit your agenda.

When you want to come back to reality we can talk.

Yep, I have an agenda:

REALITY

That's why I'm mentioning...you know...the facts and stats. You can be a biased homer till the cows come home.

[Soothsayer]

Who the f*ck is this Soothsayer clown? Must be the alternate account of some troll with an agenda. It looks like he can put together coherent sentences but in reality, he makes about as much sense as ashbelly...as in zero.


You are arguing with reality kid. You may not like what the facts have to tell you, but they aren't going anywhere.

Fact is, a strong case could be made that Pau was finals mvp. The advanced stats support this. Only time in nba history I can find where a finals mvp did not lead his team in finals win shares.

Kobe is also now the only finals mvp in history to shoot under 50% every single game of the series.

[catch24]

Who the f*ck is this Soothsayer clown? Must be the alternate account of some troll with an agenda. It looks like he can put together coherent sentences but in reality, he makes about as much sense as ashbelly...as in zero.

He makes perfect sense. Dude is just saying what you don't want to hear.

[The Iron Fist]

Facts and stats

Kobe Bryant 5 time NBA Champion 2 time FMVP
Pau Gasol 2 time NBA champion 0 playoff wins as a non Laker



Theres a reason why the team is built around Kobe and not Pau.

Kobe is a proven commodity.

[mark]

Are you blind? In the advanced stats, I mentioned defensive rating.
Finals Drtg:
Pau: 100
Kobe: 99

Offensive rating:
Pau: 122
Kobe: 107

So they were nearly identical defensively, with Pau being superior offensively.
Perkins was out, the Celts were missing their starting center. I'm sure he would have accounted for a few rebounds, had he been there. ;)

Regardless, Pau has a large edge on Kobe when it comes to rebounding as well.

And yes, Jordan FREQUENTLY faced defenses as good or better than that of the 2010 Celtics: 90s knicks, Heat, Bad boy pistons, 96 sonics, 98 pacers, etc. Do your research kid.

Jordan shot 46.4% vs. top 5 defenses in the playoffs in the 90s. That is higher than Kobe's FG% vs. ALL defenses for his carer in the regular season, playoffs, or finals.

Kobe was even in game 7, due to the fact that Perkins was out. Celts only needed one, and Bynum eliminated that with foul play.

[catch24]

Facts and stats

Kobe Bryant 5 time NBA Champion 2 time FMVP
Pau Gasol 2 time NBA champion 0 playoff wins as a non Laker



Theres a reason why the team is built around Kobe and not Pau.

Kobe is a proven commodity.

lol at this.

Kobe 5 time NBA champion, 0 Playoff wins without a dominant Big.

Theres a reason why Shaq was the number one option during the 3-peat.

You're so clueless.

[Braincells]

Are you blind? In the advanced stats, I mentioned defensive rating.
Finals Drtg:
Pau: 100
Kobe: 99

Offensive rating:
Pau: 122
Kobe: 107

So they were nearly identical defensively, with Pau being superior offensively.
Perkins was out, the Celts were missing their starting center. I'm sure he would have accounted for a few rebounds, had he been there. ;)

Regardless, Pau has a large edge on Kobe when it comes to rebounding as well.

And yes, Jordan FREQUENTLY faced defenses as good or better than that of the 2010 Celtics: 90s knicks, Heat, Bad boy pistons, 96 sonics, 98 pacers, etc. Do your research kid.

Jordan shot 46.4% vs. top 5 defenses in the playoffs in the 90s. That is higher than Kobe's FG% vs. ALL defenses for his carer in the regular season, playoffs, or finals.

So I take it that had nothing to do with the defenses being geared to stop Kobe? How about doubling and tripling him daring other players like Artest to beat them? How about the constant traps he was facing on the three point line. When the defenses are geared to stopping a player like that, there is going to be single coverage on other players like Gasol. Doc said it in his press conference, it's basic fact that the Celtics were going to let other players beat them. Gasol gets a lot of his points from single coverage but the moment he's faced with pressure, he has a tendency to disappear -- his freethrow shooting nearly cost them game 7. The games he played in Boston were abysmal, even when Kobe was spoon feeding him.

You can stat crunch all you want but the end result is still 5 rings and 2 finals MVPs. Hell, Kobe could have shot 30% and he still would have won it just because of the attention he attracted on defense. If the Celtics had to defend Bryant like that all over again, they would because Artest is a streaky shooter.

And I'm talking about the finals, not the playoffs. Finals is a whole different beast, it's not always the best team that wins but the team who wants it more. The team that won the rebounding and energy battle won the game and Kobe excelled in that.

[chazzy]

http://i46.tinypic.com/10shpv9.jpg

[Braincells]

lol at this.

Kobe 5 time NBA champion, 0 Playoff wins without a dominant Big.

Theres a reason why Shaq was the number one option during the 3-peat.

You're so clueless.

LOL, what's next? Kobe needs Fisher to win? What will it be next year when he wins?I honestly cannot wait to see the excuses next year.

Gasol wasn't even considered a top 20 player before he joined the Lakers and now he's the next Shaq. This is hilarious.

[Allstar24]

You are arguing with reality kid. You may not like what the facts have to tell you, but they aren't going anywhere.
Technically speaking, the FACT is that Kobe won the Finals MVP and everything coming out of your mouth is merely an opinion and not a fact.


Fact is, a strong case could be made that Pau was finals mvp.
:oldlol: Why would I have a problem with that when I said the same thing myself? I said it could've gone either way but I give it to Kobe because he was the main focus of the Celtic's D. Pau kinda disappeared in the road games but showed up big when it mattered, Game 7. I'd be just as happy with him winning it.


The advanced stats support this. Only time in nba history I can find where a finals mvp did not lead his team in finals win shares.
Kobe led the Lakers in win shares ahead of Shaq in the early 2000s, not sure which year it was exactly.


Kobe is also now the only finals mvp in history to shoot under 50% every single game of the series.
That means absolutely nothing because his team won the series.

I'd actually agree with you on some points (esecially regarding Gasol) but you lost all credibility because you're trolling every Kobe thread with your agenda-driven posts.

[catch24]

LOL, what's next? Kobe needs Fisher to win? What will it be next year when he wins?I honestly cannot wait to see the excuses next year.

Gasol wasn't even considered a top 20 player before he joined the Lakers and now he's the next Shaq. This is hilarious.

You really have trouble with sarcasm dont you?

[mark]

Technically speaking, the FACT is that Kobe won the Finals MVP and everything coming out of your mouth is merely an opinion and not a fact.


:oldlol: Why would I have a problem with that when I said the same thing myself? I said it could've gone either way but I give it to Kobe because he was the main focus of the Celtic's D. Pau kinda disappeared in the road games but showed up big when it mattered, Game 7. I'd be just as happy with him winning it.


Kobe led the Lakers in win shares ahead of Shaq in the early 2000s, not sure which year it was exactly.


That means absolutely nothing because his team won the series.

I'd actually agree with you on some points (esecially regarding Gasol) but you lost all credibility because you're trolling every Kobe thread with your agenda-driven posts.

MJ was shooting over 50% withOUT the handcheck rule implementation. Kobe is just sad.

[crisoner]

Was Kobe the MVP of game 7? No

Was he the best player on the court for the entire seven game series?

YES

/Thread

[Allstar24]

MJ was shooting over 50% withOUT the handcheck rule implementation. Kobe is just sad.
How did MJ come into this discussion? Here's a fact: MJ fanboys are just sad.

[Soothsayer]

Facts and stats

Kobe Bryant 5 time NBA Champion 2 time FMVP
Pau Gasol 2 time NBA champion 0 playoff wins as a non Laker



Theres a reason why the team is built around Kobe and not Pau.

Kobe is a proven commodity.


Agreed. Kobe is a great player, and indeed the Lakers should be built around him. I don't think Pau is strong enough to be a #1 on a ring team.
That said, a strong case could still be made that he was finals mvp.
And he should have had more touches in the series.

[Soothsayer]

So I take it that had nothing to do with the defenses being geared to stop Kobe? How about doubling and tripling him daring other players like Artest to beat them? How about the constant traps he was facing on the three point line. When the defenses are geared to stopping a player like that, there is going to be single coverage on other players like Gasol. Doc said it in his press conference, it's basic fact that the Celtics were going to let other players beat them. Gasol gets a lot of his points from single coverage but the moment he's faced with pressure, he has a tendency to disappear -- his freethrow shooting nearly cost them game 7. The games he played in Boston were abysmal, even when Kobe was spoon feeding him.

You can stat crunch all you want but the end result is still 5 rings and 2 finals MVPs. Hell, Kobe could have shot 30% and he still would have won it just because of the attention he attracted on defense. If the Celtics had to defend Bryant like that all over again, they would because Artest is a streaky shooter.

And I'm talking about the finals, not the playoffs. Finals is a whole different beast, it's not always the best team that wins but the team who wants it more. The team that won the rebounding and energy battle won the game and Kobe excelled in that.


Defenses are always geared to stop great offensive players. That's not any differnet than Wade, Jordan, Lebron, etc.

So that point is irrelevant. Every defense Jordan ever faced was geared to stop him.

Face it, and you know I'm right...if Kobe had passed out of the double teams in game 7 instead of jacking up shots which hit the side of the backboard, it would have benefitted his team more. His gloryseeking shotjacking was not 'valuable' except for the Celtics. lol

And obviously Kobe has 5 rings and 2 finals mvps. Way to state the obvious. What I am saying is that this is the only example I can find where the finals mvp did not lead his team in win shares or win shares/48 minutes.

Those are stats where the best player on the team is almost always on top.
In this case, Gasol is on top.

I don't care what you are talking about. Jordan frequently faced better defenses than this 2010 celtics team.

Kobe played poorly in game 7 and was bailed out by his team. He knows this and recognized it after the game, giving his team credit for "lifting him up"

[Soothsayer]

Technically speaking, the FACT is that Kobe won the Finals MVP and everything coming out of your mouth is merely an opinion and not a fact.


:oldlol: Why would I have a problem with that when I said the same thing myself? I said it could've gone either way but I give it to Kobe because he was the main focus of the Celtic's D. Pau kinda disappeared in the road games but showed up big when it mattered, Game 7. I'd be just as happy with him winning it.


Kobe led the Lakers in win shares ahead of Shaq in the early 2000s, not sure which year it was exactly.


That means absolutely nothing because his team won the series.

I'd actually agree with you on some points (esecially regarding Gasol) but you lost all credibility because you're trolling every Kobe thread with your agenda-driven posts.

Wrong. Quite the opposite kid. It is "opinion" that Kobe was the most valuable player in this year's finals.

It is "FACT" that Pau led him in many advanced metrics including VORP, win shares, win shares/48 minutes and many others.

This is exceedingly rare for a player to lead his team in these metrics and NOT win finals mvp. That is a FACT, not an opinion.

And no, Kobe NEVER led the lakers in win shares in the finals with Shaq on the team. Shaq also led the lakers in win shares in both the regular season and playoffs in 2000, 2002. In 2001, Shaq led the lakers in regular season win shares, Kobe led in playoff win shares, and Shaq led in finals win shares.

Yep, I have an agenda: REALITY.

[mark]

How did MJ come into this discussion? Here's a fact: MJ fanboys are just sad.


Kobe is by FAR the most overrated player in NBA history. He won championships with a dominant big. How many times did MJ do that? FACT Kobe always needed help to bail him out of bad shots. He cannot lead a team. He is NOT a team leader. He is a guy lucky to be on an NBA team that happened to win the playoffs, due to injury to Kendrick Perkins. Perkins was intentionally hurt by Bynum.

[chazzy]

Kobe is by FAR the most overrated player in NBA history. He won championships with a dominant big. How many times did MJ do that? FACT Kobe always needed help to bail him out of bad shots. He cannot lead a team. He is NOT a team leader. He is a guy lucky to be on an NBA team that happened to win the playoffs, due to injury to Kendrick Perkins. Perkins was intentionally hurt by Bynum.

Sounds like 2007 all over again. Just give it up

[The Iron Fist]

lol at this.

Kobe 5 time NBA champion, 0 Playoff wins without a dominant Big.

Theres a reason why Shaq was the number one option during the 3-peat.

You're so clueless.



I'm so clueless,

yet, you're harping about some shit about 0 wins without a dominant big.


How about,

he just had a shitty team?

Yea, I'm most certain that makes more sense than spouting off some bullshit about a dominant big.


Why do people even bring that shit up anyways? Magic never won without a dominant big. Wade never won without a dominant big. Lots of players never won without a dominant big. Why is Kobe held to this ridiculous standard as if its somehow supposed to make him less of a player?


I agree, there was a reason why the team was built around Shaq.

Only a moron would build around an 18 year old kid with no experience.

Funny thing though,

Shaq never won a thing until Kobe Bryant started becoming a force.


Kobe has won without Shaq and without Pau.

Whats next?

He can't win without Gary Vitti?


Don't get me wrong, Pau is an excellent addition to the team and has put the Lakers over the hump the same as Kobe putting the Lakers over the hump in the 3 peat. Both vital to the success of the team. Just as many of you love to tout about Shaq being the most important part of the puzzle back then,

Kobe is the most important piece of the puzzle today.

[The Iron Fist]

Wrong. Quite the opposite kid. It is "opinion" that Kobe was the most valuable player in this year's finals.

It is "FACT" that Pau led him in many advanced metrics including VORP, win shares, win shares/48 minutes and many others.

This is exceedingly rare for a player to lead his team in these metrics and NOT win finals mvp. That is a FACT, not an opinion.

And no, Kobe NEVER led the lakers in win shares in the finals with Shaq on the team. Shaq also led the lakers in win shares in both the regular season and playoffs in 2000, 2002. In 2001, Shaq led the lakers in regular season win shares, Kobe led in playoff win shares, and Shaq led in finals win shares.

Yep, I have an agenda: REALITY.

Its a fact Kobe is the FMVP.


http://www.google.com/search?q=2010+Finals+MVP&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.*******:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

[The Iron Fist]

Finals advanced stats:

Offensive Rating:
Pau: 122.7
Kobe: 107.7

Defensive Rating:
Pau: 100.3
Kobe: 98.9

TS%:
Pau: 55.6
Kobe: 52.8

VORP (value over replacement player):
Pau: 9.32
Kobe: 7.53
(This means Pau was more superior to an average PF than Kobe was to an average SG)

Win Shares:
Pau: 1.52
Kobe: 1.14
(For comparison, Pippen never averaged more win shares than Jordan for a regular season, playoffs, or finals).


Is there any statistic for who the Celtics concentrated on stopping more?

[catch24]

I'm so clueless,

yet, you're harping about some shit about 0 wins without a dominant big.


How about,

he just had a shitty team?

Yea, I'm most certain that makes more sense than spouting off some bullshit about a dominant big.


Why do people even bring that shit up anyways? Magic never won without a dominant big. Wade never won without a dominant big. Lots of players never won without a dominant big. Why is Kobe held to this ridiculous standard as if its somehow supposed to make him less of a player?


I agree, there was a reason why the team was built around Shaq.

Only a moron would build around an 18 year old kid with no experience.

Funny thing though,

Shaq never won a thing until Kobe Bryant started becoming a force.


Kobe has won without Shaq and without Pau.

Whats next?

He can't win without Gary Vitti?


Don't get me wrong, Pau is an excellent addition to the team and has put the Lakers over the hump the same as Kobe putting the Lakers over the hump in the 3 peat. Both vital to the success of the team. Just as many of you love to tout about Shaq being the most important part of the puzzle back then,

Kobe is the most important piece of the puzzle today.

The fact you took my reply seriously (mimicking your dumb post) def solidifies you as clueless.

[The Iron Fist]

The fact you took my reply seriously (mimicking your dumb post) def solidifies you as clueless.


and I'm supposed to know you were joking,

how?

All I get to read is words, can't see no facial expression, change of tone, nothing.

So again,

how am I supposed to know you were being sarcastic?

[EarlTheGoat]

Still this sh*t around here?


Kobe won his 5th ring and is heading to his 6th, haters and Jordan stans can act like they aint mad or scared all they want, but they aint stopping things.

Guys like Duma, insecure MJ stans and others just get used to it.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Kobe is by FAR the most overrated player in NBA history. He won championships with a dominant big. How many times did MJ do that? FACT Kobe always needed help to bail him out of bad shots. He cannot lead a team. He is NOT a team leader. He is a guy lucky to be on an NBA team that happened to win the playoffs, due to injury to Kendrick Perkins. Perkins was intentionally hurt by Bynum.

oh dear lord.
this post is so objectionable, I don't know where to begin.... so I won't.

[24thSquadron]

When you gotta write that much, and try that hard to defend something, there's obviously something to try and cover up.


The author of that joke of an article is clearly trying to hide that Kobe played TERRIBLE. Anyone who watched the game knows he was actually hurting the team more than helping.


It became hard to read when the author speculates but talks more "matter of factly" that Boston's D would have shutdown any of the greats, starting w/ MJ!!!

Clown ass read, worth no value and filled with desperation. Whatever helps Laker and Kobe fans hide behind the truth that Bryant came up completely empty in game 7 and his teammates did what he couldn't, and that's win the game.

lol@ scoring 10 in the 4th and grabbing 15 boards = coming up completely empty

GTFO haters.

[Soothsayer]

Its a fact Kobe is the FMVP.


http://www.google.com/search?q=2010+Finals+MVP&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.*******:en-US:official&client=firefox-a


Way to state the obvious.

It's an opinion that Kobe was the most valuable player in the finals.

It is a FACT that Pau has stronger advanced stats than Kobe in the finals, and may well be the only player ever to lead his team in win shares in the finals and NOT win finals mvp.

[Soothsayer]

Is there any statistic for who the Celtics concentrated on stopping more?


Defenses always concentrate on stopping the best offensive player, whether that be Kobe, Jordan, Lebron, Wade, etc.

Yet Kobe won finals mvp, while trailing Gasol in many, many metrics, including Win Shares in the finals.

That is exceedingly rare. So rare, that I have yet to find another example of it ever happening other than this year.

Kobe has also become the only finals mvp in history to shoot under 50% ever single game of the finals. 2 years running.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Way to state the obvious.

It's an opinion that Kobe was the most valuable player in the finals.

It is a FACT that Pau has stronger advanced stats than Kobe in the finals, and may well be the only player ever to lead his team in win shares in the finals and NOT win finals mvp.

LOL at "advanced stats".
Here's your advanced stats...
Lead team in scoring
Lead team in assists
Lead team in steals
Most remarkably...2nd in rebounding (more than Bynum, Artest, Odom)!!
...all while playing outstanding defense.

go ahead and give the MVP to the guy with better "advanced stats" who couldn't hit a free throw in game 7.

[24thSquadron]

kobe deserve credit for overcoming hsi own bad shooting and initial selfish-play. he redeemed HIMSELF and willed HIMSELF to perform better. But "willed the team"??? PLEASE. How did Kobe will Artest into dropping a 20-5-5, including almost single handedly keeping the Lakers in it first half, and how did Kobe will Pau Gasol's dominance down the stretch (big blocks on Pierce, KG, big rebounds down the stretch, that huge dagger shot where he landed before he shot)?

Come on now.


Artest got that 3 because Kobe got doubled so he passed it to him. Kobe continued to get doubled in the 4th, even though he was shooting poorly. Goes to show you.

[catch24]

and I'm supposed to know you were joking,

how?

All I get to read is words, can't see no facial expression, change of tone, nothing.

So again,

how am I supposed to know you were being sarcastic?

Gee, I don't know...maybe context? Use your brain.

Pretty much saying something like Pippen has 0 titles without Jordan or Jordan is 0-8 in the playoffs without Pippen.

[chopchop20]

LOL at "advanced stats".
Here's your advanced stats...
Lead team in scoring
Lead team in assists
Lead team in steals
Most remarkably...2nd in rebounding (more than Bynum, Artest, Odom)!!
...all while playing outstanding defense.

go ahead and give the MVP to the guy with better "advanced stats" who couldn't hit a free throw in game 7.
+1 :rockon: :rockon:

[Soothsayer]

LOL at "advanced stats".
Here's your advanced stats...
Lead team in scoring
Lead team in assists
Lead team in steals
Most remarkably...2nd in rebounding (more than Bynum, Artest, Odom)!!
...all while playing outstanding defense.

go ahead and give the MVP to the guy with better "advanced stats" who couldn't hit a free throw in game 7.

Kobe led the team in scoring...by taking by far the most shots.
Gasol was FAR more efficient in his scoring.

Gasol had 1 single assist less than Kobe in the series, even though Kobe had the ball in his hands FAR more.

Yes, Kobe led the team in steals....and Gasol led the team in blocks.

Kobe also had twice the turnovers that Gasol had.

Kobe played closer to an "average" nba shooting guard than Gasol played to an "average" nba power forward.

Advanced stats have always backed up the player who actually GETS the finals mvp.

This is the only year I have found where they fairly clearly back up a player who did not receive the finals mvp.

It is also only the 2nd time in league history where the finals mvp has shot UNDER 50% every single game of the finals. The other time? Last year...

[chopchop20]

Kobe is by FAR the most overrated player in NBA history. He won championships with a dominant big. How many times did MJ do that? FACT Kobe always needed help to bail him out of bad shots. He cannot lead a team. He is NOT a team leader. He is a guy lucky to be on an NBA team that happened to win the playoffs, due to injury to Kendrick Perkins. Perkins was intentionally hurt by Bynum.

:roll: :roll: What a clown! Kobe's a cancer but he has 5 rings -- ummmm yeah, that makes sense.

Larry Bird played with 4 guys on the NBA Top 50 list, 5 HOF'ers... Yet, u have a problem cuz Kobe won with Shaq? Ur a disgrace to your parents, ur city, and ur country

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Kobe led the team in scoring...by taking by far the most shots.
Gasol was FAR more efficient in his scoring.

Gasol had 1 single assist less than Kobe in the series, even though Kobe had the ball in his hands FAR more.

Yes, Kobe led the team in steals....and Gasol led the team in blocks.

Kobe also had twice the turnovers that Gasol had.

Kobe played closer to an "average" nba shooting guard than Gasol played to an "average" nba power forward.

Advanced stats have always backed up the player who actually GETS the finals mvp.

This is the only year I have found where they fairly clearly back up a player who did not receive the finals mvp.

It is also only the 2nd time in league history where the finals mvp has shot UNDER 50% every single game of the finals. The other time? Last year...

btw, I should HOPE that a PF has a better shooting % (TS% eFG% whatever) than a SG.
...esp a SG against whom the opponent keyed on to shut down.

take a moment to listen to Phil Jackson: Kobe's shooting and aggression, even when off, forces the defense to key on him, thereby making it easier for others.

btw, who was defending Gasol at the FT line in critical game 7?

[ginobli2311]

Kobe led the team in scoring...by taking by far the most shots.
Gasol was FAR more efficient in his scoring.

Gasol had 1 single assist less than Kobe in the series, even though Kobe had the ball in his hands FAR more.

Yes, Kobe led the team in steals....and Gasol led the team in blocks.

Kobe also had twice the turnovers that Gasol had.

Kobe played closer to an "average" nba shooting guard than Gasol played to an "average" nba power forward.

Advanced stats have always backed up the player who actually GETS the finals mvp.

This is the only year I have found where they fairly clearly back up a player who did not receive the finals mvp.

It is also only the 2nd time in league history where the finals mvp has shot UNDER 50% every single game of the finals. The other time? Last year...

Look at the above. Now factor in that Kobe was at his worst in the 4th qtr of every game in the series other than game 7. So Gasol played as well or better overall......and Kobe was at his worst at the most important times of the games.

Also. I don't think anyone its absurd that Gasol did not get MVP. What we are saying is that its absurd that Gasol did not at least split MVP. Thats all. Its a perfect example of both the media bias and the media agenda. I heard stu scott and other espn analysts refer to kobe as "the best closer in the game" all damn series even though he was a complete non factor in crunch time.

Sorry.....its such a double standard. If Gasol had shot 41% for the series kobe/laker fans would be on here killing him even if the lakers did win.

[Soothsayer]

btw, I should HOPE that a PF has a better shooting % (TS% eFG% whatever) than a SG.
...esp a SG against whom the opponent keyed on to shut down.

take a moment to listen to Phil Jackson: Kobe's shooting and aggression, even when off, forces the defense to key on him, thereby making it easier for others.

btw, who was defending Gasol at the FT line in critical game 7?


Right...so stating that Kobe "averaged more points" is pretty irrelevant, considering the pts he scored were not scored nearly as efficiently.

Kobe wasn't great at the line either in game 7.

Kobe's game score in game 7: 9.9
Pau's game score in game 7: 19.2

Pau contributed basically twice as much statistically as Kobe in game 7.

Pau actually LED the Lakers in win shares in the finals, easily. This is the only instance I can find of a player leading his team in win shares in the finals, and not winning finals mvp.

[Soothsayer]

Look at the above. Now factor in that Kobe was at his worst in the 4th qtr of every game in the series other than game 7. So Gasol played as well or better overall......and Kobe was at his worst at the most important times of the games.

Also. I don't think anyone its absurd that Gasol did not get MVP. What we are saying is that its absurd that Gasol did not at least split MVP. Thats all. Its a perfect example of both the media bias and the media agenda. I heard stu scott and other espn analysts refer to kobe as "the best closer in the game" all damn series even though he was a complete non factor in crunch time.

Sorry.....its such a double standard. If Gasol had shot 41% for the series kobe/laker fans would be on here killing him even if the lakers did win.


Great point. As I mentioned in a previous post, Kobe's one "trump card" has been that he comes through in the clutch. Well...24% FG in the 4th quarter in the series is hardly "clutch".

So much for that argument. lol

[ginobli2311]

I would love to hear what kobe homers would be saying on here if Gasol jacked up 20 shots a game outside the offense and refused to pass out of doubles. It would be truly priceless.

[ginobli2311]

Great point. As I mentioned in a previous post, Kobe's one "trump card" has been that he comes through in the clutch. Well...24% FG in the 4th quarter in the series is hardly "clutch".

So much for that argument. lol

lol...thanks. now his "trump card" is his will and determination. he just willed his team to win.......he willed derek fisher to take over game 3. he willed artest to make the huge three. he willed ray allen to miss open shot after open shot.

forget level of play and efficiency. kobe's will (conveniently something that can't be measured or debated) is what won the lakers the series.

lets ignore the 4th qtrs and game 7. kobe just wanted it more......LOL.....so pathetic.

[Soothsayer]

I would love to hear what kobe homers would be saying on here if Gasol jacked up 20 shots a game outside the offense and refused to pass out of doubles. It would be truly priceless.


Kobe in this series tied a finals record, held by himself:
Only player to win finals mvp while shooting under 50% every game.

He also set a new finals record:
Most FGs missed in a single finals: 97

[Heilige]

lol...thanks. now his "trump card" is his will and determination. he just willed his team to win.......he willed derek fisher to take over game 3. he willed artest to make the huge three. he willed ray allen to miss open shot after open shot.

forget level of play and efficiency. kobe's will (conveniently something that can't be measured or debated) is what won the lakers the series.

lets ignore the 4th qtrs and game 7. kobe just wanted it more......LOL.....so pathetic.


You honestly don't think Kobe wanted it more? Kobe wants to be the GOAT.

[Soothsayer]

lol...thanks. now his "trump card" is his will and determination. he just willed his team to win.......he willed derek fisher to take over game 3. he willed artest to make the huge three. he willed ray allen to miss open shot after open shot.

forget level of play and efficiency. kobe's will (conveniently something that can't be measured or debated) is what won the lakers the series.

lets ignore the 4th qtrs and game 7. kobe just wanted it more......LOL.....so pathetic.

That's right! Kobe just "wanted it more"
In his words, "I just wanted it so bad!"

After game 7 though Kobe knew what was up when he said "My team lifted me up."

If anything, his team's will and determination probably made Kobe better in game 7. Farmar had to give Kobe a pep talk when he was lifting him up off the floor, telling Kobe not to be negative, and that they were going to win the game.

But yeah...it's Kobe's "will and determination" while bricking shots off the side of the backboard which "willed" LA to the victory.

[chopchop20]

He's back, ladies and gentleman.... Gnobli:applause:

[ginobli2311]

Kobe in this series tied a finals record, held by himself:
Only player to win finals mvp while shooting under 50% every game.

He also set a new finals record:
Most FGs missed in a single finals: 97


but wait.....we are "haters" for bringing up facts. why can't we just all agree that kobe is a great player (one of the best ever)....but he played like complete shit overall in this series.

great players can play poorly at times. the lakers won because of their team. kobe really did not bring much to the table at all compared to what most shooting guards would have in this series. in fact, most shooting guards would not jack up all those terrible shots outside the offense.

the numbers back all of these claims up. sorry.....its just the truth. you can talk about desire and will all you want....but at the end of the day its performance that actually matters. and kobe's performance in these finals was slightly worse than the average player at his position.....the lakers still won though.....maybe that should tell us all something.

[Phong]

It's been a week already and some people are still butthurt. :oldlol:

[Soothsayer]

but wait.....we are "haters" for bringing up facts. why can't we just all agree that kobe is a great player (one of the best ever)....but he played like complete shit overall in this series.

great players can play poorly at times. the lakers won because of their team. kobe really did not bring much to the table at all compared to what most shooting guards would have in this series. in fact, most shooting guards would not jack up all those terrible shots outside the offense.

the numbers back all of these claims up. sorry.....its just the truth. you can talk about desire and will all you want....but at the end of the day its performance that actually matters. and kobe's performance in these finals was slightly worse than the average player at his position.....the lakers still won though.....maybe that should tell us all something.


Yep. None of this would be an issue if Kobe fans and the media weren't trying to overhype him and portray him as GOAT territory worthy.

If you are going to say Kobe is GOAT, prepare to have every last detail scrutinized and compared to other players with claims as GOAT.

If you don't want the scrutiny, stop calling Kobe what he is not, and be satisfied that he is Top 10 of all time.

But instead, Kobe stans response to reason and facts is simply the legendary..."You mad?"

:oldlol:

[ginobli2311]

You honestly don't think Kobe wanted it more? Kobe wants to be the GOAT.

no. i don't think kobe wanted to win anymore than kg or tried any harder than ray allen and so on. its media speak and its bs.

kobe wants to be "great" more than most players do. but i don't think that is a positive really. because kobe's desire to be great has gotten in the way of winning quite a few times in his career actually.

don't tell me that kg did not want to win the title as badly as kobe. thats complete and utter BS.

[chopchop20]

It's been a week already and some people are still butthurt. :oldlol:

I wonder which of the split personalities Gnobli is using today. Yesterday he was ripping Kobe apart and 15 minutes later, professed his love for the Lakers and Kobe. :oldlol: :oldlol:

Hope this kid gets some medication soon. Probably hopeless still... looks like the only thing that could save him is LeBron winning the championship next year -- not gonna happen

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Kobe wasn't great at the line either in game 7.



11-15 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 7-13

Gasol 63% FT in 4th quarter alone.

[beermonsteroo]

Individiual game score 9.7! That's all which has to be said!:lol :lol :lol :lol

Defense game for the ages?:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :

[ginobli2311]

I wonder which of the split personalities Gnobli is using today. Yesterday he was ripping Kobe apart and 15 minutes later, professed his love for the Lakers and Kobe. :oldlol: :oldlol:

Hope this kid gets some medication soon. Probably hopeless still... looks like the only thing that could save him is LeBron winning the championship next year -- not gonna happen

why would you attack me personally based on what i have posted today?

also. i do really like kobe a lot. he just wasn't better than gasol in the finals and he's not one of the 5 best players ever. that doesn't mean i can't still like him.

i like lebron a lot. but if people started coming on here saying he's better than hakeem or magic or bird.....i'd be pointing out all the reasons why they are wrong as well.

its hilarious with you on here. you don't have to blindly love or hate a player. you can actually judge their play. just like i praised kobe for his damn near perfect play in game 6. i live in reality and judge and analyze what actually happens......i don't live in kobe/laker fantasy land in which all reality goes out the window and somehow its a good game when you go 6-24....don't run the offense.....and don't pass out of doubles.

which one is more reasonable?

[Phong]

Individiual game score 9.7! That's all which has to be said!:lol :lol :lol :lol

Defense game for the ages?:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :
(Points x 1.0) + (FGM x 0.4) + (FGA x -0.7) + ((FTA-FTM) x -0.4) + (OREB x 0.7) + (DREB x 0.3) + (STL x 1.0) + (AST x 0.7) + (BLK x 0.7) + (PF x -0.4) + (TO x -1.0)


If this is not the perfect way to evaluate a player I don't know what is. :confusedshrug:

[EarlTheGoat]

ginobli you seem to be in almost every Kobe thread that is made. I dont see you in any other thread, only on Kobe`s.

You have some type of eskizofrenic obssesion with him?

[The Iron Fist]

ginobli you seem to be in almost every Kobe thread that is made. I dont see you in any other thread, only on Kobe`s.

You have some type of eskizofrenic obssesion with him?


Its more than an obsession,

its a lifestyle!

[32jazz]

ginobli you seem to be in almost every Kobe thread that is made. I dont see you in any other thread, only on Kobe`s.

You have some type of eskizofrenic obssesion with him?


I pointed this out here once before that Kobe haters have an obssession with the man that is eerily similiar to mentally unstable celebrity stalkers.

The same manic obssession propels them both(celebrity stalkers/Kobe haters). It is just a matter of whom decides to act upon those obssessions.

[ginobli2311]

I pointed this out here once before that Kobe haters have an obssession with the man that is eerily similiar to mentally unstable celebrity stalkers.

The same manic obssession propels them both(celebrity stalkers/Kobe haters). It is just a matter of whom decides to act upon those obssessions.

its the most interesting topic right now. lebron is interesting as well and i'm in those threads.


so soothsayer and i bring up a lot valid points with evidence to back us up and you all resort to calling me a troll. and you want me banned? its beyond absurd. participate in the debate or leave........funny how the troll stuff comes about every time we have you all cornered.

[RazorBaLade]

ginobli you said you would post how lebron is not better than magic,bird, hakeem well I made a thread and you're kinda not in there giving your 2 cents about why lebron is not as good as them. Making it almost seem kinda like you talk about nobody but kobe

[Allstar24]

Wrong. Quite the opposite kid. It is "opinion" that Kobe was the most valuable player in this year's finals.

It is "FACT" that Pau led him in many advanced metrics including VORP, win shares, win shares/48 minutes and many others.

This is exceedingly rare for a player to lead his team in these metrics and NOT win finals mvp. That is a FACT, not an opinion.

And no, Kobe NEVER led the lakers in win shares in the finals with Shaq on the team. Shaq also led the lakers in win shares in both the regular season and playoffs in 2000, 2002. In 2001, Shaq led the lakers in regular season win shares, Kobe led in playoff win shares, and Shaq led in finals win shares.

Yep, I have an agenda: REALITY.
What kind of "reality" are you talking about? You are the most delusional guy here. Kobe already won the MVP, it's done...we all have eyes and we saw Bill Russell handing him the award...how is that an opinion and not a fact? :oldlol: You must still be in the denial phase...it's only been a week, you'll get over it.

[RazorBaLade]

"
Wrong. Quite the opposite kid. It is "opinion" that Kobe was the most valuable player in this year's finals.

It is "FACT" that Pau led him in many advanced metrics including VORP, win shares, win shares/48 minutes and many others.

This is exceedingly rare for a player to lead his team in these metrics and NOT win finals mvp. That is a FACT, not an opinion.

And no, Kobe NEVER led the lakers in win shares in the finals with Shaq on the team. Shaq also led the lakers in win shares in both the regular season and playoffs in 2000, 2002. In 2001, Shaq led the lakers in regular season win shares, Kobe led in playoff win shares, and Shaq led in finals win shares.

Yep, I have an agenda: REALITY."

What the **** is a vorp? I have watched the NBA for almost 8 years, huge fan for about 5 years though watching every game.. I have no idea what a win share/48 min, win share or vorp is. What the hell happened to stuff like FG%, defense, pts, reb, ast??

[The Iron Fist]

What kind of "reality" are you talking about? You are the most delusional guy here. Kobe already won the MVP, it's done...we all have eyes and we saw Bill Russell handing him the award...how is that an opinion and not a fact? :oldlol: You must still be in the denial phase...it's only been a week, you'll get over it.
:roll:

Thats what cracks me up.

Dude lives in some alternate universe.

[ginobli2311]

:roll:

Thats what cracks me up.

Dude lives in some alternate universe.

soothsayer was talking about who was actually the MVP....not who won it. do you understand that?

kobe obviously won the award. but soothsayer and i are saying that gasol was actually more valuable and the better player in the finals. and all the numbers and our eyes back us up.

agree to disagree though. because neither side is changing their mind.

[tpols]

Yep, I read the article.
It only mentions finals opponents, not opponents faced in the playoffs before the finals.

Jordan faced the Pistons, Knicks, and Heat in his own conference, and they were often the best defenses.

Jordan faced many defenses with a better Drtg than the 2010 celts at 103.8.

1998 Pacers: 101.6
1997 Heat: 100.6
1997 Hawks: 102.3
1996 Sonics: 102.1
1996 Knicks: 103.5
1996 Heat: 103.8
1993 Knicks: 99.7

As well, the 92 blazers with a Drtg of 104.2 and the 97 Jazz at 104.0 are nearly identical to the 2010 Celts at 103.8.

As well, Jordan shot better vs. top defenses than Kobe does.
Jordan's .464% vs. top 5 defenses in the playoffs from 91-98 is better than Kobe's career vs. ALL defenses in the regular season, playoffs, or finals.

Learn to do your own research and think you yourself.
Hey man we were talking about the finals. You can't bounce around to other parts of the playoffs when were referencing stats from the FINALS. Do you see where the flaw in logic is here?

Also, you keep calling everyone that supports kobe getting the fmvp homers. But, homers are people who overrate superstars (say they'll win certain individual accolades like mvp/dpoy/nba 1st team/etc. or put them up too high on GOAT lists) when compared to what a normal, unbiased fan would do. Homers, essentially, move away from reality, but the reality of this situation is that kobe did win the fmvp. That is a fact. That is the reality.

I'm not saying Gasol had no chance at the award and I do think, as you said, a case could be made. The overwhelming consensus, however, is that kobe bryant was the fmvp. Laker greats like Magic Johnson and Jerry West were present at every game and voted kobe for the award. If you were to get the top ten guys in history, Magic, MJ, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, etc. they would all vote kobe the mvp.

These are guys that devoted their lives to the game of basketball and know it inside and out. Now who do you think I'm going to trust on the issue, the perrenial rhodes scholars of basketball, or you, a nerdy prepubescent white kid sitting, typing at your computer.

[The Iron Fist]

soothsayer was talking about who was actually the MVP....not who won it. do you understand that?

kobe obviously won the award. but soothsayer and i are saying that gasol was actually more valuable and the better player in the finals. and all the numbers and our eyes back us up.

agree to disagree though. because neither side is changing their mind.


Kobe actually was the MVP.

No matter how many times you cry about it,

Kobe Bryant 2010 NBA FINALS MVP.

[RazorBaLade]

soothsayer was talking about who was actually the MVP....not who won it. do you understand that?

kobe obviously won the award. but soothsayer and i are saying that gasol was actually more valuable and the better player in the finals. and all the numbers and our eyes back us up.

agree to disagree though. because neither side is changing their mind.

only in winshares and vorp whatever crap that is. I think that without Kobe la loses so much easier than without Gasol its ridic. Kobe was better than gasol in basically every stat that is actually used by people was he not?

[Soothsayer]

What kind of "reality" are you talking about? You are the most delusional guy here. Kobe already won the MVP, it's done...we all have eyes and we saw Bill Russell handing him the award...how is that an opinion and not a fact? :oldlol: You must still be in the denial phase...it's only been a week, you'll get over it.


Once again, way to state the obvious kid.

Everyone knows Kobe was awarded the finals mvp.

However, what everyone does NOT know is that Gasol led Kobe in many advanced stats...for the entire finals. Including win shares.

I have not found another instance of a player leading his team in the finals in win shares, yet failing to win the finals mvp.

This is historic.

Not many people know as well that Kobe set 2 finals records this year:

He tied his own record by becoming the only player in nba history to shoot under 50% every single game of the finals, and win finals mvp.

He missed the most FGs in finals history: 97

That is not delusional. That is reality.
:applause:
Deal with it.

[Soothsayer]

"
Wrong. Quite the opposite kid. It is "opinion" that Kobe was the most valuable player in this year's finals.

It is "FACT" that Pau led him in many advanced metrics including VORP, win shares, win shares/48 minutes and many others.

This is exceedingly rare for a player to lead his team in these metrics and NOT win finals mvp. That is a FACT, not an opinion.

And no, Kobe NEVER led the lakers in win shares in the finals with Shaq on the team. Shaq also led the lakers in win shares in both the regular season and playoffs in 2000, 2002. In 2001, Shaq led the lakers in regular season win shares, Kobe led in playoff win shares, and Shaq led in finals win shares.

Yep, I have an agenda: REALITY."

What the **** is a vorp? I have watched the NBA for almost 8 years, huge fan for about 5 years though watching every game.. I have no idea what a win share/48 min, win share or vorp is. What the hell happened to stuff like FG%, defense, pts, reb, ast??


*sigh*

Can you not read? In many of my posts, for the ignorant, such as you, I explained that VORP is "Value over Replacement Player", or how much superior to an average nba player of that position the particular player is.

Pau had a VORP of 9.3 in the finals.
Kobe had a VORP of 7.5

This means Pau played more superior to an average nba PF than Kobe did compared to an average nba SG.

All teams and GMs use advanced stats to evaluate players' true contribution on the court.

[Soothsayer]

Hey man we were talking about the finals. You can't bounce around to other parts of the playoffs when were referencing stats from the FINALS. Do you see where the flaw in logic is here?

Also, you keep calling everyone that supports kobe getting the fmvp homers. But, homers are people who overrate superstars (say they'll win certain individual accolades like mvp/dpoy/nba 1st team/etc. or put them up too high on GOAT lists) when compared to what a normal, unbiased fan would do. Homers, essentially, move away from reality, but the reality of this situation is that kobe did win the fmvp. That is a fact. That is the reality.

I'm not saying Gasol had no chance at the award and I do think, as you said, a case could be made. The overwhelming consensus, however, is that kobe bryant was the fmvp. Laker greats like Magic Johnson and Jerry West were present at every game and voted kobe for the award. If you were to get the top ten guys in history, Magic, MJ, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, etc. they would all vote kobe the mvp.

These are guys that devoted their lives to the game of basketball and know it inside and out. Now who do you think I'm going to trust on the issue, the perrenial rhodes scholars of basketball, or you, a nerdy prepubescent white kid sitting, typing at your computer.


No "man", we aren't just talking about the finals. The best defense is frequently in the same conference as a given team.

But even if you are just talking finals, the 92 blazers with a Drtg of 104.2 and the 97 Jazz at 104.0 are nearly identical to the 2010 Celts at 103.8.

The 1996 Sonics were superior at: 102.1

As well, Jordan shot better vs. top defenses than Kobe does.
Jordan's .464% vs. top 5 defenses in the playoffs from 91-98 is better than Kobe's career vs. ALL defenses in the regular season, playoffs, or finals.

And way to state the obvious...everyone knows Kobe won finals mvp.

If you could actually read what I type, you will see that what I am saying is that Pau actually had better advanced stats than Kobe, and that this year is the only year I can find where the player with the best win shares on the winning finals team did NOT win finals mvp.
Pau had more win shares in the finals than Kobe, yet Kobe won finals mvp.
This is historic.

And the perennial "rhodes scholars" of basketball say what on the issue kid?

There have been many articles written already on the subject of whether Kobe deserved finals mvp.

Join reality.

My pubescence was decades ago kid. Try dealing with the argument instead of making the logical fallacy of ad hominem attacks.

:D

[Soothsayer]

only in winshares and vorp whatever crap that is. I think that without Kobe la loses so much easier than without Gasol its ridic. Kobe was better than gasol in basically every stat that is actually used by people was he not?


No, he was not.

Gasol was the more efficient scorer. Kobe was the volume scorer.

Kobe was better in steals. Gasol better in blocks.

They were even in assists.

Gasol blew Kobe away in rebouding.

And advanced stats ARE used by people, all the time, that's why they exist. They typically support the decision of who is finals mvp.

This time they do not. That is worth noting.

[ginobli2311]

No, he was not.

Gasol was the more efficient scorer. Kobe was the volume scorer.

Kobe was better in steals. Gasol better in blocks.

They were even in assists.

Gasol blew Kobe away in rebouding.

And advanced stats ARE used by people, all the time, that's why they exist. They typically support the decision of who is finals mvp.

This time they do not. That is worth noting.

there is no logical argument or evidence to support kobe over gasol for finals mvp. when you factor in kobe's terrible 4th qtr play and awful game 7 it becomes an even more absurd stance to take.

you have great posts soothsayer.....you have clearly won this debate. but you can't ever really win on here because kobe homers now have to resort to arguments based on "will and determination" or try to convince us that kobe jacking up terrible shots all series somehow was what the team needed.

the double standards will never end in the media or on here. they have an agenda and they will never give it up. whether its kobe's 15 rebounds are better than lebron's 19 or that kobe is the best closer even though nothing supports this. its all the same. just media speak and agendas........the actual play on the court is rarely as important as what tim legler or wilbon say......and thats sad.

[TROLL_HUNTER]

Man...all this talk and you all dont have a clue. I will make it simple: Kobe is a legend and a legendary player, hes the prototype hero, for real. and MORE IMPORTANT: MEDIA HAS SOLD HIM LIKE THAT FOREVER. without a chance of turning back. No matter how poor Kobe's performance has been for the superstar standards hes measured on. Kobe would be the one getting the mvp cos the media can sell Kobe better than somebody else, let alone some skinny white european. I mean, its a no brainer. the trophy is rigged from day 1 and everybody knows who will get it in case a team wins no matter anything else. this is what marketing is all about.

the media and fans are completely biased when it comes down to Kobe and making excuses for him as they cannot take back their words about him on the same line with Jordan. Gasol had a terrible game on the road and everybody was killing him though he had been arguably the best laker in the series. However, Kobe had an equally terrible game in the MOST IMPORTANT ONE, in super clutch time, and all the media are just making excuses cos they cannot rewrite all the nonsense they have been writing so far. As simple as that. And guys, please, would you rather buy a Kobe MVP jersey or a Gasol MVP jersey? come on! get real, mvp votes are based on this, big time and this is one of the perfect examples. what in Kobe is called will for victory in other players is called ballhog. And seriously guys, all this crap is due to the fear from fans and media of Kobe not living up to his "Legacy" which is stupid. Kobe is already a legend and will always be. no matter if he screws up till the end of his career he belongs to the greatest ones by own rights. However, the sick bias of fans praising Kobe even when CLEARLY hes not the best player on the court is hilarious and pathetic.

And its said over here its true: its opinions versus facts. Too bad that the later dont support Kobe's case in this occasion. i would love to read these folks if the case would be the other way around. Many Lakers fans prove themselves childish by not thinking of how freaking lucky they are for having such a stacked team, building up a new dinasty. That is much more important than focusing on a single guy. In this case, somebody who was about to leave the team before a certain trade was made. Does it ring some bells?

[tpols]

there is no logical argument or evidence to support kobe over gasol for finals mvp. when you factor in kobe's terrible 4th qtr play and awful game 7 it becomes an even more absurd stance to take.

you have great posts soothsayer.....you have clearly won this debate. but you can't ever really win on here because kobe homers now have to resort to arguments based on "will and determination" or try to convince us that kobe jacking up terrible shots all series somehow was what the team needed.

the double standards will never end in the media or on here. they have an agenda and they will never give it up. whether its kobe's 15 rebounds are better than lebron's 19 or that kobe is the best closer even though nothing supports this. its all the same. just media speak and agendas........the actual play on the court is rarely as important as what tim legler or wilbon say......and thats sad.
You guys are just sucking each other's d!cks lol

Everyone let's just abandon this thread. It's clear they already lost.

And soothsayer, JFG stated he thought kobe was deserving of the award if LA lost. Jerry West AND Magic Johnson said he was the BEST LAKER EVER.

Case Closed.

[tpols]

Jvg*

[Soothsayer]

there is no logical argument or evidence to support kobe over gasol for finals mvp. when you factor in kobe's terrible 4th qtr play and awful game 7 it becomes an even more absurd stance to take.

you have great posts soothsayer.....you have clearly won this debate. but you can't ever really win on here because kobe homers now have to resort to arguments based on "will and determination" or try to convince us that kobe jacking up terrible shots all series somehow was what the team needed.

the double standards will never end in the media or on here. they have an agenda and they will never give it up. whether its kobe's 15 rebounds are better than lebron's 19 or that kobe is the best closer even though nothing supports this. its all the same. just media speak and agendas........the actual play on the court is rarely as important as what tim legler or wilbon say......and thats sad.

Lol. I know man, you are right. I guess it's not about "winning". I'm just trying to expose the brainwashed masses to some additional information they are missing in the mainstream media. At least this way, they won't have an excuse for their ignorance in believing Kobe is "GOAT".

Look..I, like you, respect Kobe's game, and believe he is an all time great, but I'm sick and tired of the comparisons to Jordan and the GOAT talk about Kobe. I've watched enough basketball to know that bird doesn't fly. Media isn't fooling me....or you.
:cheers:

[Soothsayer]

Man...all this talk and you all dont have a clue. I will make it simple: Kobe is a legend and a legendary player, hes the prototype hero, for real. and MORE IMPORTANT: MEDIA HAS SOLD HIM LIKE THAT FOREVER. without a chance of turning back. No matter how poor Kobe's performance has been for the superstar standards hes measured on. Kobe would be the one getting the mvp cos the media can sell Kobe better than somebody else, let alone some skinny white european. I mean, its a no brainer. the trophy is rigged from day 1 and everybody knows who will get it in case a team wins no matter anything else. this is what marketing is all about.

the media and fans are completely biased when it comes down to Kobe and making excuses for him as they cannot take back their words about him on the same line with Jordan. Gasol had a terrible game on the road and everybody was killing him though he had been arguably the best laker in the series. However, Kobe had an equally terrible game in the MOST IMPORTANT ONE, in super clutch time, and all the media are just making excuses cos they cannot rewrite all the nonsense they have been writing so far. As simple as that. And guys, please, would you rather buy a Kobe MVP jersey or a Gasol MVP jersey? come on! get real, mvp votes are based on this, big time and this is one of the perfect examples. what in Kobe is called will for victory in other players is called ballhog. And seriously guys, all this crap is due to the fear from fans and media of Kobe not living up to his "Legacy" which is stupid. Kobe is already a legend and will always be. no matter if he screws up till the end of his career he belongs to the greatest ones by own rights. However, the sick bias of fans praising Kobe even when CLEARLY hes not the best player on the court is hilarious and pathetic.

And its said over here its true: its opinions versus facts. Too bad that the later dont support Kobe's case in this occasion. i would love to read these folks if the case would be the other way around. Many Lakers fans prove themselves childish by not thinking of how freaking lucky they are for having such a stacked team, building up a new dinasty. That is much more important than focusing on a single guy. In this case, somebody who was about to leave the team before a certain trade was made. Does it ring some bells?


Wow...fantastic post man.

:applause:
:cheers:

[Soothsayer]

You guys are just sucking each other's d!cks lol

Everyone let's just abandon this thread. It's clear they already lost.

And soothsayer, JFG stated he thought kobe was deserving of the award if LA lost. Jerry West AND Magic Johnson said he was the BEST LAKER EVER.

Case Closed.


LMAO!

That's right, suddenly JVG is The Pope...his word is infallible!

Lol, you kids are hilarious, believing everything you hear...brainwashed by the media.

Regardless, JVG made that comment BEFORE game 7.

Magic and Jerry saying Kobe is the best laker ever has nothing to do with him being gifted finals mvp in 2010.

Think dude. You were given a brain for a reason man.

[KINGS2002CHAMPS]

This is a great read.

http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2010/6/21/1525036/kobe-bryants-game-7-in-perspective

In the Finals, Kobe is more John Starks than MJ :lol

[The Iron Fist]

Lol. I know man, you are right. I guess it's not about "winning". I'm just trying to expose the brainwashed masses to some additional information they are missing in the mainstream media. At least this way, they won't have an excuse for their ignorance in believing Kobe is "GOAT".

Look..I, like you, respect Kobe's game, and believe he is an all time great, but I'm sick and tired of the comparisons to Jordan and the GOAT talk about Kobe. I've watched enough basketball to know that bird doesn't fly. Media isn't fooling me....or you.
:cheers:


Well then,

you better get on your job and start detailing how Jordans career doesn't match up in any way to Kareems.


Ready, set, GO!

[Soothsayer]

Well then,

you better get on your job and start detailing how Jordan career doesn't match up in any way to Kareems.


Ready, set, GO!


Too easy child.

NBA career: Kareem 6 rings, 2 finals mvps
Jordan 6 rings, 6 finals mvps.

Game, set, match.

Sit your ass down kid.

[The Iron Fist]

Too easy child.

NBA career: Kareem 6 rings, 2 finals mvps
Jordan 6 rings, 6 finals mvps.

Game, set, match.

Sit your ass down kid.


3 NCAA titles 3 MOP awards>1 NCAA title
3NYC titles> getting left off the team.


Way too easy.


So come on, lets get to it Skippy. Start informing the masses of what each player did at those levels. As it is, high school and college ball are pretty big entities in their own right.

[KINGS2002CHAMPS]

When you gotta write that much, and try that hard to defend something, there's obviously something to try and cover up.


The author of that joke of an article is clearly trying to hide that Kobe played TERRIBLE. Anyone who watched the game knows he was actually hurting the team more than helping.


It became hard to read when the author speculates but talks more "matter of factly" that Boston's D would have shutdown any of the greats, starting w/ MJ!!!

Clown ass read, worth no value and filled with desperation. Whatever helps Laker and Kobe fans hide behind the truth that Bryant came up completely empty in game 7 and his teammates did what he couldn't, and that's win the game.




http://godofradio.com/animatedgoodpostclap.gif

[tpols]

LMAO!

That's right, suddenly JVG is The Pope...his word is infallible!

Lol, you kids are hilarious, believing everything you hear...brainwashed by the media.

Regardless, JVG made that comment BEFORE game 7.

Magic and Jerry saying Kobe is the best laker ever has nothing to do with him being gifted finals mvp in 2010.

Think dude. You were given a brain for a reason man.
I'm just quoting a reputable person. Not saying I believe what he said.

And I'm not brainwashed by the media at all. It's just you guys come on here thinking you're intelligent posting advanced stats and what not but anyone that watched every game in that series would tell you kobe was the most important piece. Though, I will admit, not by much as I knew the inside out game with Gasol would be key to the laker's success.

Another few key points: You keep saying Gasol was more efficient, but big men shoot a lot closer to the basket and typically have better percentages (not to mention the defense wasn't as focused on gasol).

That point above also illustrates why pippen didn't ever beat jordan in advanced stats (Jordan carried the scoring load, and he and pippen both shot from the same parts of the floor generally)

[Soothsayer]

3 NCAA titles 3 MOP awards>1 NCAA title
3NYC titles> getting left off the team.


Way too easy.


So come on, lets get to it Skippy. Start informing the masses of what each player did at those levels. As it is, high school and college ball are pretty big entities in their own right.


Learn to read moron.

I said NBA career.

Kareem can have best "college" player all time.

Jordan is NBA GOAT.
6 finals, 6 finals mvps > 6 rings with a measly 2 finals mvps.

[Soothsayer]

I'm just quoting a reputable person. Not saying I believe what he said.

And I'm not brainwashed by the media at all. It's just you guys come on here thinking you're intelligent posting advanced stats and what not but anyone that watched every game in that series would tell you kobe was the most important piece. Though, I will admit, not by much as I knew the inside out game with Gasol would be key to the laker's success.

Another few key points: You keep saying Gasol was more efficient, but big men shoot a lot closer to the basket and typically have better percentages (not to mention the defense wasn't as focused on gasol).

That point above also illustrates why pippen didn't ever beat jordan in advanced stats (Jordan carried the scoring load, and he and pippen both shot from the same parts of the floor generally)


You don't find it curious that in this year's finals, as opposed to EVERY other nba finals, the player with the best advanced stats, and the most win shares did not win finals mvp?


I think that is a curious development worth noting.

Yes, big men shoot a lot closer to the basket. That is a GOOD thing. The object of the game (jesus, do I really have to explain this) is to get the best shot possible, not to shoot the most outside shots as possible.

I respect you as a poster and respect your style man. At least you seem to be reasonable and to think about these things rather than just being spoonfed.

:cheers:

[Mr. Jabbar]

Learn to read moron.

I said NBA career.

Kareem can have best "college" player all time.

Jordan is NBA GOAT.
6 finals, 6 finals mvps > 6 rings with a measly 2 finals mvps.

Jabar has a GOAT case, anyone thinking otherwise deserves to be trash talked until he dies.

[tpols]

You don't find it curious that in this year's finals, as opposed to EVERY other nba finals, the player with the best advanced stats, and the most win shares did not win finals mvp?


I think that is a curious development worth noting.

Yes, big men shoot a lot closer to the basket. That is a GOOD thing. The object of the game (jesus, do I really have to explain this) is to get the best shot possible, not to shoot the most outside shots as possible.

I respect you as a poster and respect your style man. At least you seem to be reasonable and to think about these things rather than just being spoonfed.

:cheers:
Alright, well then let's examine why it happened.

First, has there ever been a potential dynasty (like this lakers team if they win again) that featured a legendary guard (main man) and a very good center/big man (second man).

Of recent teams to repeat, the spurs didn't have it (main man is a big man, and the second options were on the wing)

Shaq was the main man and kobe was second during their first 3peat.

Jordan never played with a dominant big man.

Hakeem was the main man on his back to back team.

Magic in his later years with kareem is probably the closest thing we have to a similar situation(main man guard, second man center). I don't know how to calculate winshares so that'd be a good place to check.

That might be a reason for why gasol beat him in those advanced stats.

He also, as has been beaten to death, was more efficient which is what a lot of these stats rely on.

[The Iron Fist]

Learn to read moron.

I said NBA career.

Kareem can have best "college" player all time.

Jordan is NBA GOAT.
6 finals, 6 finals mvps > 6 rings with a measly 2 finals mvps.


I don't care what you said.

When people talk GOAT, they don't specify which level.

The wording is as follows.

Greatest
of
all
time.



Kareem dominated at every level. Jordan, just one.

So, go ahead, get to your job and start informing the masses of the legend that is Kareem Abdul Jabbar.


btw, Bill Russell>>>Jordan when it comes to winning in the finals.


Its called the "Bill Russell award" for a reason.

Most likely he would have 11 FMVPs if they had the award in his hey day.

So, once again,

get on your job and start informing the masses about the falsifying of Jordan being the goat. Because quite frankly, when you really take a look at it,

Both were better winners than Jordan.

GO!




I'm just trying to expose the brainwashed masses to some additional information they are missing in the mainstream media.

I don't see a mention of NBA anywhere in this statement, or in that entire post.

[Soothsayer]

I don't care what you said.

When people talk GOAT, they don't specify which level.

The wording is as follows.

Greatest
of
all
time.



Kareem dominated at every level. Jordan, just one.

So, go ahead, get to your job and start informing the masses of the legend that is Kareem Abdul Jabbar.


btw, Bill Russell>>>Jordan when it comes to winning in the finals.


Its called the "Bill Russell award" for a reason.

Most likely he would have 11 FMVPs if they had the award in his hey day.

So, once again,

get on your job and start informing the masses about the falsifying of Jordan being the goat. Because quite frankly, when you really take a look at it,

Both were better winners than Jordan.

GO!

And I don't care what YOU said moron.

Jordan: GOAT nba player.

Kareem, doesn't have enough finals mvps.

Russell: only dominated one side of the ball, 15.6 ppg on 44% career shooting. Horrible for a center.

Jordan easily GOAT nba career.

[IN-PAX-WE-TRUST]

Jordan best player ever... Kobe best player of last 15 years. The only way Kobe is in the conversation is if he wins 2-3 more titles.

[Soothsayer]

Alright, well then let's examine why it happened.

First, has there ever been a potential dynasty (like this lakers team if they win again) that featured a legendary guard (main man) and a very good center/big man (second man).

Of recent teams to repeat, the spurs didn't have it (main man is a big man, and the second options were on the wing)

Shaq was the main man and kobe was second during their first 3peat.

Jordan never played with a dominant big man.

Hakeem was the main man on his back to back team.

Magic in his later years with kareem is probably the closest thing we have to a similar situation(main man guard, second man center). I don't know how to calculate winshares so that'd be a good place to check.

That might be a reason for why gasol beat him in those advanced stats.

He also, as has been beaten to death, was more efficient which is what a lot of these stats rely on.


yes, the reason Gasol beat him in advanced stats is that he simply contributed more, and more efficiently while on the court.

Advanced stats aren't biased, they simply reflect and tabulate trackable oncourt stats and derive numbers based on them.

No other situation in the history of the nba finals, dating back to 1969 shows a player getting fewer win shares in the finals, and winning finals mvp.

Now, this may be excusable this year if Kobe had put up a terrific game 7 or clutch performances throughout, but given his 24% 4th quarter FG%, it is even more confounding.

[Disaprine]

damn, butthurt jordan bitches infesting ish! :roll:

enjoy the offseason trolls and prepare to cry when kobe holds up his 3rd finals mvp next season. :cheers:

[Soothsayer]

Jordan best player ever... Kobe best player of last 15 years. The only way Kobe is in the conversation is if he wins 2-3 more titles.


This.


And even if Kobe is "in the conversation", until he gets 6 finals mvps and has utterly dominating finals like MJ, he will lose that conversation.

[Soothsayer]

Jabar has a GOAT case, anyone thinking otherwise deserves to be trash talked until he dies.


I agree, Jabbar has a GOAT nba case. Jordan just has a better one IMO.

[RazorBaLade]

No, he was not.

Gasol was the more efficient scorer. Kobe was the volume scorer.

Kobe was better in steals. Gasol better in blocks.

They were even in assists.

Gasol blew Kobe away in rebouding.

And advanced stats ARE used by people, all the time, that's why they exist. They typically support the decision of who is finals mvp.

This time they do not. That is worth noting.

u cant just compare stats outright. gasols fg was not good for big man, kobe fg not good for sg. etc. i wont go in debt bcuz ur opinion wont ever change

[Soothsayer]

I don't see a mention of NBA anywhere in this statement, or in that entire post.[/

I said:
"Too easy child.

NBA career: Kareem 6 rings, 2 finals mvps
Jordan 6 rings, 6 finals mvps.

Game, set, match.

Sit your ass down kid."



So if you didn't see NBA mentioned anywhere in any of my posts that's because, as usual, you didn't pay attention and read carefully.

[GoSpursGo1984]

yes, the reason Gasol beat him in advanced stats is that he simply contributed more, and more efficiently while on the court.

Advanced stats aren't biased, they simply reflect and tabulate trackable oncourt stats and derive numbers based on them.

No other situation in the history of the nba finals, dating back to 1969 shows a player getting fewer win shares in the finals, and winning finals mvp.

Now, this may be excusable this year if Kobe had put up a terrific game 7 or clutch performances throughout, but given his 24% 4th quarter FG%, it is even more confounding.

Advanced stats are really just stats that you will keep changing to fit your argument. Gasol has games where he scored only 12 and 13 points and you think he is the mvp? Kobe never had a game where he had under 20 points and not only that he also did good in rebounding and assists.

[Soothsayer]

u cant just compare stats outright. gasols fg was not good for big man, kobe fg not good for sg. etc. i wont go in debt bcuz ur opinion wont ever change

Wrong man.

That's what VORP (Value over Replacement Player) is for. It shows you how much better the player played than an average player of that position.

Gasol finals VORP: 9.3
Kobe finals VORP: 7.5

Gasol played more highly above an average nba power forward than Kobe did above an average nba shooting guard in the finals.

[Soothsayer]

Advanced stats are really just stats that you will keep changing to fit your argument. Gasol has games where he scored only 12 and 13 points and you think he is the mvp? Kobe never had a game where he had under 20 points and not only that he also did good in rebounding and assists.


You can't "change" advanced stats. They are what they are, derived from a player's performance on the court. They speak for themselves.

Yes, Gasol was not perfect this series, nor was Kobe. Gasol played more highly above an average power forward than Kobe did above an average shooting guard, and Gasol had more win shares.

First time in nba history that I have found where a player leads his team in finals win shares, yet does not win finals mvp.

[RazorBaLade]

Wrong man.

That's what VORP (Value over Replacement Player) is for. It shows you how much better the player played than an average player of that position.

Gasol finals VORP: 9.3
Kobe finals VORP: 7.5

Gasol played more highly above an average nba power forward than Kobe did above an average nba shooting guard in the finals.

its pretty simple......... no one gives minutes to a bad sg. Everyone has a use for a big man to clog the paint.

[tpols]

Wrong man.

That's what VORP (Value over Replacement Player) is for. It shows you how much better the player played than an average player of that position.

Gasol finals VORP: 9.3
Kobe finals VORP: 7.5

Gasol played more highly above an average nba power forward than Kobe did above an average nba shooting guard in the finals.
I just have one problem with that VORP stat:

Forget replacing them with 'average position players.' Let's use the actual players on the team.

If you get rid of kobe, you have Fisher, farmar, and brown running the show instead.

If you get rid of Gasol you still have Odom and Bynum to take his place.

I'll take my chances with kobe/odom/bynum over gasol/fisher/farmar.

[The Iron Fist]

I don't see a mention of NBA anywhere in this statement, or in that entire post.[/

I said:
"Too easy child.

NBA career: Kareem 6 rings, 2 finals mvps
Jordan 6 rings, 6 finals mvps.

Game, set, match.

Sit your ass down kid."



So if you didn't see NBA mentioned anywhere in any of my posts that's because, as usual, you didn't pay attention and read carefully.


This is the post I responded to you about doing your job to inform the masses.


Originally Posted by Soothsayer
Lol. I know man, you are right. I guess it's not about "winning". I'm just trying to expose the brainwashed masses to some additional information they are missing in the mainstream media. At least this way, they won't have an excuse for their ignorance in believing Kobe is "GOAT".

Look..I, like you, respect Kobe's game, and believe he is an all time great, but I'm sick and tired of the comparisons to Jordan and the GOAT talk about Kobe. I've watched enough basketball to know that bird doesn't fly. Media isn't fooling me....or you.


I don't see any references to NBA.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Wrong man.

That's what VORP (Value over Replacement Player) is for. It shows you how much better the player played than an average player of that position.

Gasol finals VORP: 9.3
Kobe finals VORP: 7.5

Gasol played more highly above an average nba power forward than Kobe did above an average nba shooting guard in the finals.

THERE'S a load of sh!t for ya.
you gotta fvcking kidding me!
tell me you don't REALLY assess a game in that manner?

[chazzy]

there is no logical argument or evidence to support kobe over gasol for finals mvp.

Oh really?


a good case can be made for either player.


Better yet


kobe definitely deserves it if the lakers win......not even a debate.

[The Iron Fist]

Oh really?



Better yet


http://scottystarnes.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/homer-simpson-doh.gif

[chazzy]

there is no logical argument or evidence to support kobe over gasol for finals mvp.

Oh, one more



good post. i actually think kobe deserved it over gasol even though gasol was more consistent.


As you like to say "...owned again."

[The Iron Fist]

Oh, one more




As you like to say "...owned again."


Gotta be bi polar.

[RazorBaLade]

its pretty simple......... no one gives minutes to a bad sg. Everyone has a use for a big man to clog the paint.

this was ignored.. im not surprised

[SSSTRESSS]

your right he sucks..

http://www.porhomme.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/kobe-bryant-la-lakers-nba-championship-2009-mvp.jpg

[ginobli2311]

Oh, one more




As you like to say "...owned again."

i felt that way at the time. but after watching the series again......and being able to analyze the play......gasol was definitely the better player in the series.

i still think they should have split it.....but in no way should kobe have won it outright.

i was flat out wrong when i said the above.

poor shot selection, refusal to run offense, costly turnovers in crunch time, terrible 4th qtr play at 25% from the field, and one of the worst game 7's a star player has every played.....not just on stats.....but on how he played. its one thing to miss shots.....but kobe was jacking up such terrible shots in game 7 that its hard to believe. the 2nd time i watched that game it just made me cringe.

i was too caught up in the moment to see the series clearly earlier. now its painfully clear. Gasol was the best player in that series.....

[tpols]

i felt that way at the time. but after watching the series again......and being able to analyze the play......gasol was definitely the better player in the series.

i still think they should have split it.....but in no way should kobe have won it outright.

i was flat out wrong when i said the above.

poor shot selection, refusal to run offense, costly turnovers in crunch time, terrible 4th qtr play at 25% from the field, and one of the worst game 7's a star player has every played.....not just on stats.....but on how he played. its one thing to miss shots.....but kobe was jacking up such terrible shots in game 7 that its hard to believe. the 2nd time i watched that game it just made me cringe.

i was too caught up in the moment to see the series clearly earlier. now its painfully clear. Gasol was the best player in that series.....
:applause: now that you've had last word lets end this thread.

note: I don't agree with you completely.

[Doranku]

i felt that way at the time. but after watching the series again......and being able to analyze the play......gasol was definitely the better player in the series.

i still think they should have split it.....but in no way should kobe have won it outright.

i was flat out wrong when i said the above.

poor shot selection, refusal to run offense, costly turnovers in crunch time, terrible 4th qtr play at 25% from the field, and one of the worst game 7's a star player has every played.....not just on stats.....but on how he played. its one thing to miss shots.....but kobe was jacking up such terrible shots in game 7 that its hard to believe. the 2nd time i watched that game it just made me cringe.

i was too caught up in the moment to see the series clearly earlier. now its painfully clear. Gasol was the best player in that series.....

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Just let it all out, man. Mentally prepare yourself for next year when the Lakers 3-peat again and Kobe matches Jordan's rings. It'll be a tough time for you, but you can pull through. I believe in you.

[RazorBaLade]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Just let it all out, man. Mentally prepare yourself for next year when the Lakers 3-peat again and Kobe matches Jordan's rings. It'll be a tough time for you, but you can pull through. I believe in you.

hes really not insane or anything, he just feels its necessary to be that guy butting into peoples conversations saying why they are wrong. I'm sure uve had run ins with these kind of people before.

[mongePR(kb24)]

This is the breakdown of Kobe's Game 7..


http://dbbuildingservice.co.uk/assets/images/bricks.jpg

i lool'ed...:roll:

[ginobli2311]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Just let it all out, man. Mentally prepare yourself for next year when the Lakers 3-peat again and Kobe matches Jordan's rings. It'll be a tough time for you, but you can pull through. I believe in you.

you seem to think that i care who wins the title? i don't unless dirk has a chance....after that i don't care. i wanted the lakers to beat the celtics this year. pierce is probably my least favorite player in the league and gasol/fisher are two of my 5 favorites.

i have no problem with kobe winning the title and i actually think it makes the nba far more interesting with the lakers in the finals.

that does not mean that i have to blindly praise or hate players because i don't like them or love them. why can't we just analyze what actually happens on the court? the reason you think i "hate" kobe is because this board is out and the media are out of control with him right now. they...just like most of you....have an agenda and are sticking to it regardless of what happens.

just look at game 7......i've heard plenty of people say kobe played well....and i've heard a ton of people say he played a great series. that just was not the case. sorry......those standards are far too low. you can ignore what happened all you want....that doesn't mean i have to.

please end the thread. soothsayer and i have already won this debate. there is nothing to support kobe for mvp over gasol other than media agenda, media speak, and the obvious bias of most of the posters on this board in favor of kobe.

thats not called "hate".....its called reality.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

i felt that way at the time. but after watching the series again......and being able to analyze the play......gasol was definitely the better player in the series.

i still think they should have split it.....but in no way should kobe have won it outright.

i was flat out wrong when i said the above.

poor shot selection, refusal to run offense, costly turnovers in crunch time, terrible 4th qtr play at 25% from the field, and one of the worst game 7's a star player has every played.....not just on stats.....but on how he played. its one thing to miss shots.....but kobe was jacking up such terrible shots in game 7 that its hard to believe. the 2nd time i watched that game it just made me cringe.

i was too caught up in the moment to see the series clearly earlier. now its painfully clear. Gasol was the best player in that series.....


keep tryin'
after the 1st 2 games, the dude shot 42%. that's poor for a PF who was never double teamed.

don't even talk about the game 7 choke job shooting 7-13 FT... 5-8 in critical 4th. Who was defending him at the FT line?

Thank god he got rebounds.

[ginobli2311]

keep tryin'

keep tryin' to pretend like kobe played a good series and was better than gasol. lol at the agendas on here.......again....why do i get labeled as a "hater" when i give kobe credit every time he plays well.

you are such a joke dude. you can't even acknowledge when your god plays like crap. its so pathetic. keep trying to brush those terrible 4th qtrs with costly turnovers and bad shot selection under the rug. keep trying to pretend like 15 rebounds is the greatest thing ever. so standard on here.......i have an open mind....you don't.....but i have to deal with the constant talks of bans and personal attacks.

sad state on ISH right now.

[RazorBaLade]

So since I've already proven adv stats ie vorp are worthless, and kobes averages in the series are clearly better than gasols........ Whats the case for gasol playing better again? I didnt read every post in the thread

[ginobli2311]

So since I've already proven adv stats ie vorp are worthless, and kobes averages in the series are clearly better than gasols........ Whats the case for gasol playing better again? I didnt read every post in the thread

you can't prove advance stats are worthless. player efficiency rating and game score are very valuable.

lets see why gasol was better:

-more efficient from the field
-better on the boards
-better defensively
-played better in game 7
-better assist to turnover ratio


oh....and he didn't shoot 25% in the 4th qtrs combined and he didn't have terrible turnovers in crunch time in nearly every game of that was close in the series. lol.....gasol averaged the same amount of assists kobe did and he literally had the ball about 25% as often as kobe did. you can't have it both ways.....if the celtics were doubling kobe (which they really weren't....but if you want to say that...fine) then kobe and the lakers should have had a ton of assists. why didn't they then? because kobe held on to the ball way too long nearly every time he touched and played right into the hands of the defense.

so in total:

gasol needed less shots to score
he was a better passer
he turned the ball over much less
he was by far the best rebounder in the series....getting 5 offensive boards a game
he did a great job of protecting the rim on defense
he was the best player on the floor in game 7

but yea.....kobe was clearly better.

[RazorBaLade]

you can't prove advance stats are worthless. player efficiency rating and game score are very valuable.

lets see why gasol was better:

-more efficient from the field
-better on the boards
-better defensively
-played better in game 7
-better assist to turnover ratio


oh....and he didn't shoot 25% in the 4th qtrs combined and he didn't have terrible turnovers in crunch time in nearly every game of that was close in the series. lol.....gasol averaged the same amount of assists kobe did and he literally had the ball about 25% as often as kobe did. you can't have it both ways.....if the celtics were doubling kobe (which they really weren't....but if you want to say that...fine) then kobe and the lakers should have had a ton of assists. why didn't they then? because kobe held on to the ball way too long nearly every time he touched and played right into the hands of the defense.

so in total:

gasol needed less shots to score
he was a better passer
he turned the ball over much less
he was by far the best rebounder in the series....getting 5 offensive boards a game
he did a great job of protecting the rim on defense
he was the best player on the floor in game 7

but yea.....kobe was clearly better.

I'll try and be unbiased, I'll explain my thoughts and maybe it will change your opinion. But I won't go back and forth, if this doesn't show you what really happened nothing except time will.

- Gasol shot 10% worse than he did in the season, so did Kobe. Right? Considering Kobe is a SG, I have to say that the efficiency was equal. I'm not giving it to Kobe here because although someone can say Kobe was also guarded much harder than Gasol, he probably shouldn't have taken a lot of those shots but that's what makes him Kobe. So I say even here.

- Boards is understandable, he's the biggest guy on the floor. Kobe played outstanding for an SG to rebound, but you just can't not go with Gasol here. But the difference is not huge, Kobe had some great rebounding games.

- Idk about defense, if you remember the 3 road games he was getting devoured and the talks of softness were coming up... Kobe had to guard Rondo and even though the strategy on Rondo is simple, Rondo didn't totally go off on Kobe like people were expecting him to ("rondo best pg in the league!") even though I think it was more mental but that's the benefit of being Kobe Bryant.

- Ron played better than Gasol in game 7 IMO, Gasol played rather poorly offensively until the 4th quarter, but Kobe was assisting him usually and frankly Gasol doesn't get those shots as easily if not for Kobe being there and EVERYONE in the building and watching expecting Kobe to start knocking down shots.

- Have ball in hands less, have no injuries on hands = less turnovers. But yes this category goes to Gasol.

It's the triangle, watch the games closely you will see that about 70% of Gasol's assists are touch passes that he gives to someone, but it was Kobe that gave Gasol the pass. Like Phil said, LA is at their best when Kobe is making hockey assists and you need to take that into consideration. Kobe was clearly being doubled and even tripled sometimes, and you're forgetting that you can't have a lot of assists when everyone is missing shots. Don't forget that it was an ugly series.

- He needed less shots to score less, isn't that obvious. If gasol had taken more shots it wouldn't have meant that he'd score more pts.
- Less time with hands in ball, especially during crucial possessions obviously means less turnovers.
- IDK about defense. Rondo did not do anything all series, KG beasted Gasol for half of the series.

So in conclusion I'd say that Kobe in the SERIES was the MVP, Gasol was of course a gigantic piece and Ron was the Gm 7 mvp.

[ginobli2311]

I'll try and be unbiased, I'll explain my thoughts and maybe it will change your opinion. But I won't go back and forth, if this doesn't show you what really happened nothing except time will.

- Gasol shot 10% worse than he did in the season, so did Kobe. Right? Considering Kobe is a SG, I have to say that the efficiency was equal. I'm not giving it to Kobe here because although someone can say Kobe was also guarded much harder than Gasol, he probably shouldn't have taken a lot of those shots but that's what makes him Kobe. So I say even here.

- Boards is understandable, he's the biggest guy on the floor. Kobe played outstanding for an SG to rebound, but you just can't not go with Gasol here. But the difference is not huge, Kobe had some great rebounding games.

- Idk about defense, if you remember the 3 road games he was getting devoured and the talks of softness were coming up... Kobe had to guard Rondo and even though the strategy on Rondo is simple, Rondo didn't totally go off on Kobe like people were expecting him to ("rondo best pg in the league!") even though I think it was more mental but that's the benefit of being Kobe Bryant.

- Ron played better than Gasol in game 7 IMO, Gasol played rather poorly offensively until the 4th quarter, but Kobe was assisting him usually and frankly Gasol doesn't get those shots as easily if not for Kobe being there and EVERYONE in the building and watching expecting Kobe to start knocking down shots.

- Have ball in hands less, have no injuries on hands = less turnovers. But yes this category goes to Gasol.

It's the triangle, watch the games closely you will see that about 70% of Gasol's assists are touch passes that he gives to someone, but it was Kobe that gave Gasol the pass. Like Phil said, LA is at their best when Kobe is making hockey assists and you need to take that into consideration. Kobe was clearly being doubled and even tripled sometimes, and you're forgetting that you can't have a lot of assists when everyone is missing shots. Don't forget that it was an ugly series.

- He needed less shots to score less, isn't that obvious. If gasol had taken more shots it wouldn't have meant that he'd score more pts.
- Less time with hands in ball, especially during crucial possessions obviously means less turnovers.
- IDK about defense. Rondo did not do anything all series, KG beasted Gasol for half of the series.

So in conclusion I'd say that Kobe in the SERIES was the MVP, Gasol was of course a gigantic piece and Ron was the Gm 7 mvp.

i agree with most of that.

but gasol was more efficient in the series...thats a fact. also.....perception on rondo was far different than reality. rondo played exactly the same as he did against the magic. people just didn't notice because the celtics went up 3-0. don't forget that a huge reason why rondo struggled was because of gasol/bynum protecting the rim. rondo got into the paint at will and really struggled to finish over gasol. i'm not saying kobe didn't play good defense....but gasol just had a bigger impact on the games defensively by protecting the paint and rebounding the ball better.

i guess i just don't care what positions people play. you clearly let the positions impact your analysis....and that is fine. having said that......kobe has a much better chance to succeed in the 4th qtrs of games based on his position....and that was when kobe was at his worst. its so easy to say...."of course gasol was more efficient because he's a big man"....but i don't hear anyone saying "of course kobe made more plays down the stretch of that game because he's a shooting guard". do you see the difference? kobe has inherent advantages at guard that gasol does not have. kobe just didn't use those advantages like he normally does.

that is why when i look back at the series it becomes more obvious to me that gasol was better.....mainly because kobe played so poorly. nobody is saying gasol had an amazing series or anything. he was just better than kobe.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Derek Fisher should have been MVP.
He was more consistent than Gasol, who disappeared for games after the first 2 when he proceeded to shoot a measly 42%..pathetic for a PF, esp for one who was never double-teamed.
Fisher was arguably the best defender on the court (with a nod to Kobe).
And Fisher was more clutch, while Gasol was shooting 7-13 FT in critical game 7.

but then, there's Artest, who Jackson said was the MVP of game 7.

[amfirst]

Who cares everybody played bad in game 7 except Artest. At least Kobe did better than than Celtics superstars and rebounded like a real center. He also created a lot of doubles and dish it out to his team mates, which they were open enough to nail the shots. Without his doubles, the Celtics defense would have been extra tight on everyone else.

[gyu]

Anybody realize that in the whole series, Kobe had only ONE more assist than Gasol?

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Anybody realize that in the whole series, Kobe had only ONE more assist than Gasol?

yup. Gasol got 1/3rd of his assists in one game.

[amfirst]

Anybody realize that in the whole series, Kobe had only ONE more assist than Gasol?

Yes, but it had to do with the style of defense the Celts were playing. Basically, it was to double Kobe than cut off the guy 2nd guy typically Gasol. Then Gasol would dish it to the third guy. This was the only way to get a open shot against the defense. Kobe had to take the double, pass it to Gasol a guy rotates over, then Gasol pass it to the third guy who is normally open.

The Celts didn't want Kobe to have any looks and plays, they did this to force the third option to step up and that's how Gasol got many assist.

[sekachu]

Man...all this talk and you all dont have a clue. I will make it simple: Kobe is a legend and a legendary player, hes the prototype hero, for real. and MORE IMPORTANT: MEDIA HAS SOLD HIM LIKE THAT FOREVER. without a chance of turning back. No matter how poor Kobe's performance has been for the superstar standards hes measured on. Kobe would be the one getting the mvp cos the media can sell Kobe better than somebody else, let alone some skinny white european. I mean, its a no brainer. the trophy is rigged from day 1 and everybody knows who will get it in case a team wins no matter anything else. this is what marketing is all about.

the media and fans are completely biased when it comes down to Kobe and making excuses for him as they cannot take back their words about him on the same line with Jordan. Gasol had a terrible game on the road and everybody was killing him though he had been arguably the best laker in the series. However, Kobe had an equally terrible game in the MOST IMPORTANT ONE, in super clutch time, and all the media are just making excuses cos they cannot rewrite all the nonsense they have been writing so far. As simple as that. And guys, please, would you rather buy a Kobe MVP jersey or a Gasol MVP jersey? come on! get real, mvp votes are based on this, big time and this is one of the perfect examples. what in Kobe is called will for victory in other players is called ballhog. And seriously guys, all this crap is due to the fear from fans and media of Kobe not living up to his "Legacy" which is stupid. Kobe is already a legend and will always be. no matter if he screws up till the end of his career he belongs to the greatest ones by own rights. However, the sick bias of fans praising Kobe even when CLEARLY hes not the best player on the court is hilarious and pathetic.

And its said over here its true: its opinions versus facts. Too bad that the later dont support Kobe's case in this occasion. i would love to read these folks if the case would be the other way around. Many Lakers fans prove themselves childish by not thinking of how freaking lucky they are for having such a stacked team, building up a new dinasty. That is much more important than focusing on a single guy. In this case, somebody who was about to leave the team before a certain trade was made. Does it ring some bells?


:applause:

[RazorBaLade]

i agree with most of that.

but gasol was more efficient in the series...thats a fact. also.....perception on rondo was far different than reality. rondo played exactly the same as he did against the magic. people just didn't notice because the celtics went up 3-0. don't forget that a huge reason why rondo struggled was because of gasol/bynum protecting the rim. rondo got into the paint at will and really struggled to finish over gasol. i'm not saying kobe didn't play good defense....but gasol just had a bigger impact on the games defensively by protecting the paint and rebounding the ball better.

i guess i just don't care what positions people play. you clearly let the positions impact your analysis....and that is fine. having said that......kobe has a much better chance to succeed in the 4th qtrs of games based on his position....and that was when kobe was at his worst. its so easy to say...."of course gasol was more efficient because he's a big man"....but i don't hear anyone saying "of course kobe made more plays down the stretch of that game because he's a shooting guard". do you see the difference? kobe has inherent advantages at guard that gasol does not have. kobe just didn't use those advantages like he normally does.

that is why when i look back at the series it becomes more obvious to me that gasol was better.....mainly because kobe played so poorly. nobody is saying gasol had an amazing series or anything. he was just better than kobe.

Yeah you can't go wrong with Gasol as FMVP if you don't take the context, positions and so into consideration. Nothing wrong with that, I just personally try to make sense of how well on a 1-10 scale each stat or play is for exactly who made that play and the whole situation then compare to another player in that same way, not just outright compare this guy did this and this guy did this. Can't go wrong either way, and I know I personally didn't realize this but I have now and a lot of other people arguing with you should realize it as well: Gasol arguably being the FMVP only makes LA sound like a better team, and even if you are a Kobe fan and not a laker fan you should understand that Kobe doesn't care and just wants to win because he isn't gonna be the greatest of all time if he doesn't keep winning. This is a guy that would probably take a bench role at 38 than go to a crappy team. So a different FMVP is not a big deal, hell Worthy won an FMVP that doesn't take away from Magics CAREER.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Was Kobe the MVP of game 7? No

Was he the best player on the court for the entire seven game series?

YES

/Thread

Yep, for the first 2 games, you could've argued Gasol was the MVP, but anyone who watched the series objectively knows who the best player on the court was.

Kobe didn't have a good game 7, IMO and his shooting was hurting the Lakers until the 4th when he shot less, but for the series, it's obvious who the MVP was. Kobe didn't have a great series, IMO, but neither did Gasol. Pau was very inconsistent. Great in the first 2 games then he played poorly in Boston.

[ashbelly]

:bowdown: :bowdown:

[LA_Showtime]

At first I thought Gasol should have won Finals MVP. However, after looking back on the series I don't think there's anything wrong with Kobe winning it. He didn't have a dominant series by any means, but then again, neither did Gasol. At the end of the day the only thing that means anything is 16. :D

[ArbitraryWater]

We should get indianguy and ginobli on this post.

They'd prolly sh!t their pants at seeing the use of proper logic. :roll:


Did you read the article retard? The lakers took 83 shots to score 83 points. He took 24 shots to score 23 points. If I'm not mistaken, that means he was just as efficient as his team AND he carried the bulk of the scoring load.

damn, tpols was hella insecure/mad about this lol...

last time i saw him scrambling this much was 2016 when he did some kind of olympian rings style breakdown