Which Defense is better: 2010 Finals V.S. 1996 Finals

[alexandreben]

Which Defense is better: 2010 Finals V.S. 1996 Finals

Garry Payton - Ray Allen

KG/Perkins - Kemp/Schrempf

Paul Pierce/Tony Allen - Hawkins/Askew




Here's some stats comparisson between Jordan and Kobe:

Jordan - 1996 Finals Average V.S. Kobe - 2010 Finals Average:
Jordan/Kobe
Min - 42 Min - 41.3
PPG - 27.3 PPG - 28.6
FG% - .415 FG% - .405
3P% - .316 3P% - .319
FT% - .836 FT% - .883
TRB - 5.3 TRB - 8
Ast - 4.2 Ast - 5.5
Stl - 1.7 Stl - 2.14
Blk - .2 Blk - .71
Tov - 3 Tov - 3.86



Jordan - Final Game 1996 Finals V.S. Kobe - Final Game 2010 Finals
Jordan/Kobe
Min - 43 Min - 45
PPG - 22 PPG - 23
FG% - 5-19 (.263) FG% - 6-24 (.25)
3P% - 1-3 (.333) 3P% - 0-6 (.000)
FT% - 11-12 (.917) FT% - 11-15 (.733)
TRB - 9 TRB - 15
Ast - 7 Ast - 2
Stl - 2 Stl - 1
Blk - 0 Blk - 0
Tov - 5 Tov - 4


Here's an old vid

[Sarcastic]

Gary Payton is a better individual defender than anything Kobe has ever seen, but the Celtics played a much better team defense than the Sonics, but still not as good as the defenses Jordan saw during the 1990's in the Eastern Conference (Knicks, Pistons).

[DwightHowardMVP]

Detlef Schrempf guarded Jordan for most of the series.
:roll:

Kobe would drop 60 on him.

[Mr Clutch Melo]

Detlef Schrempf guarded Jordan for most of the series.
:roll:

Kobe would drop 60 on him.

Stop lying, Payton guarded Jordan. Payton is maybe the GOAT perimeter defender. Payton should not be named in the same sentence as Ray Allen ( In terms of defense) and Tony Allen

[Sarcastic]

Detlef Schrempf guarded Jordan for most of the series.
:roll:

Kobe would drop 60 on him.

Detlef guarded him some, not most.

Remember also, Detlef was 6'9". Very unlikely Kobe that Kobe would drop 60 on him.

[asdf1990]

Detlef Schrempf guarded Jordan for most of the series.
:roll:

Kobe would drop 60 on him.

sry kobe only scores 60 in the regular season, he plays like shit during the playoffs.

[Leviathon1121]

Detlef Schrempf guarded Jordan for most of the series.
:roll:

Kobe would drop 60 on him.

Seriously, can we ban this idiot? Have you ever posted anything that is not a complete fabrication?

[Bigsmoke]

the defense in 2010.

[alexandreben]

Gary Payton is a better individual defender than anything Kobe has ever seen, but the Celtics played a much better team defense than the Sonics, but still not as good as the defenses Jordan saw during the 1990's in the Eastern Conference (Knicks, Pistons).
Agree, Payton is unique defensive player, less muscle and weight(means better speed and quickness), short enough to be more agile but not too short:
http://dimemag.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/jordan_payton_96.jpg
maybe only Fraizer can compare with GP...


96' Supersonics defense certainly not as good as Knicks and Pistons in the early 90's, question is, was it as good as the 2010 finals' Celtics?

[knightfall88]

I think theres no question that 2010 is better.

One thing really like was how Ray Allen would always walk up under Kobe's legs while he is jumpshooting instead of contesting. That was really clever.

[alexandreben]

I think theres no question that 2010 is better.

One thing really like was how Ray Allen would always walk up under Kobe's legs while he is jumpshooting instead of contesting. That was really clever.

So, are you saying that Ray Allen's defense is better than Garry Payton?

[ginobli2311]

So, are you saying that Ray Allen's defense is better than Garry Payton?

I think the team defenses were very similar. but gary payton was literally ten times the defender that ray allen or tony allen is. people either forget or are too young to know the kind of defender payton was. he's one of the 10 to 15 best perimeter defenders of all time. he was in the heart of his prime in 96 and was a tough matchup for jordan.

i have the series on dvd. trust me....jordan played well to shoot 42%. also....the rest of the bulls were awful for most of that series....jordan had to take a lot of forced shots that he normally wouldn't have taken.

basically the exact opposite of kobe. kobe had a matchup he should have been able to exploit...but he couldn't. kobe also should have deferred to his teammates because they were playing better than him. jordan had a brutal matchup and his teammates were really struggling so it forced him to do more.

i can't remember....but i think jordan was more efficient from the field than kobe was as well.

[indiefan24]

I think the team defenses were very similar. but gary payton was literally ten times the defender that ray allen or tony allen is. people either forget or are too young to know the kind of defender payton was. he's one of the 10 to 15 best perimeter defenders of all time. he was in the heart of his prime in 96 and was a tough matchup for jordan.

i have the series on dvd. trust me....jordan played well to shoot 42%. also....the rest of the bulls were awful for most of that series....jordan had to take a lot of forced shots that he normally wouldn't have taken.

basically the exact opposite of kobe. kobe had a matchup he should have been able to exploit...but he couldn't. kobe also should have deferred to his teammates because they were playing better than him. jordan had a brutal matchup and his teammates were really struggling so it forced him to do more.

i can't remember....but i think jordan was more efficient from the field than kobe was as well.

not saying kobe didn't play bad, but his team was non-existent at times as well. usually when kobe played well (gms 1, 3 and 6) his teammates played great--exception being game 5. game 7 was the one game where kobe played awful, but his team was able to pull through for the win.

[ImmortalD24]

Boston's defense is underrated and is considerably better than those Sonics on that side of the floor.

[Da_Realist]

You're missing the point. Boston played great D, but that's not the reason Kobe struggled. Kobe struggled because he has a hero complex and he likes taking dumb shots. Orlando forced* Kobe into shooting 43% last year. Does that mean they are a top-5 defense? LOL

* - allowed Kobe to take dumb shots

[ashbelly]

Detlef Schrempf guarded Jordan for most of the series.
:roll:

Kobe would drop 60 on him.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy4W5siGgcc

[ashbelly]

the defense in 2010.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy4W5siGgcc

[ashbelly]

I think theres no question that 2010 is better.

One thing really like was how Ray Allen would always walk up under Kobe's legs while he is jumpshooting instead of contesting. That was really clever.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy4W5siGgcc

[ashbelly]

Boston's defense is underrated and is considerably better than those Sonics on that side of the floor.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy4W5siGgcc

[ginobli2311]

You're missing the point. Boston played great D, but that's not the reason Kobe struggled. Kobe struggled because he has a hero complex and he likes taking dumb shots. Orlando forced* Kobe into shooting 43% last year. Does that mean they are a top-5 defense? LOL

* - allowed Kobe to take dumb shots

so true. if kobe had played the right way the entire series (like he did in game 6)....the lakers would have torched the celtics. kobe just played right into their hands in every game but game 6.

hero complex.....damn you nailed it.

[ashbelly]

You're missing the point. Boston played great D, but that's not the reason Kobe struggled. Kobe struggled because he has a hero complex and he likes taking dumb shots. Orlando forced* Kobe into shooting 43% last year. Does that mean they are a top-5 defense? LOL
* - allowed Kobe to take dumb shots


:applause: :applause: it's called basketball IQ.. Kobe lacks it, his fans want to believe something else..

[Desperado]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy4W5siGgcc


:oldlol: at highlighting "double-team" when he gets in the paint. Isn't that what's suppose to happen? From Jordan down to Steve Kerr, if anyone gets in the paint, you are supposed to provide help. You could highlight these things with Kobe/Lebron/Wade etc too. No one is petty enough to do that though.

[ashbelly]

:oldlol: at highlighting "double-team" when he gets in the paint. Isn't that what's suppose to happen? From Jordan down to Steve Kerr, if anyone gets in the paint, you are supposed to provide help. You could highlight these things with Kobe/Lebron/Wade etc too. No one is petty enough to do that though.


Celtics were doing the same to Kobe. So it's not a big deal i guess.. :confusedshrug: Can someone remind me why OP made this thread again ?

[alexandreben]

You're missing the point. Boston played great D, but that's not the reason Kobe struggled. Kobe struggled because he has a hero complex and he likes taking dumb shots. Orlando forced* Kobe into shooting 43% last year. Does that mean they are a top-5 defense? LOL

* - allowed Kobe to take dumb shots
:roll: :applause:

[Yung D-Will]

:applause: :applause: it's called basketball IQ.. Kobe lacks it, his fans want to believe something else..

Lol did you just say Kobe lacks basketball Iq?

[tpols]

Lol did you just say Kobe lacks basketball Iq?
He clearly doesn't know what that term means.

[ginobli2311]

:applause: :applause: it's called basketball IQ.. Kobe lacks it, his fans want to believe something else..

I think that is going a bit too far. What kobe has always struggled with is his competitive nature and desire to be great. its a great strength but its also by far his biggest weakness. kobe sometimes put his own goals and competitiveness ahead of the team......and while i think that is a terrible quality...... i'd rather have kobe out there putting it all on the line...while some other great players like malone/webber/robinson (to name a few) that played like they were afraid to fail at times in big moments.

[ashbelly]

Lol did you just say Kobe lacks basketball Iq?






He clearly doesn't know what that term means.



when you are constantly shooting jumpers when triple teamed, Your basketball IQ is LOW..,

When you are constantly taking low percentage shots (even if you might make some) Your ball IQ is Low..

[alexandreben]

I think that is going a bit too far. What kobe has always struggled with is his competitive nature and desire to be great. its a great strength but its also by far his biggest weakness. kobe sometimes put his own goals and competitiveness ahead of the team......and while i think that is a terrible quality...... i'd rather have kobe out there putting it all on the line...while some other great players like malone/webber/robinson (to name a few) that played like they were afraid to fail at times in big moments.
Kobe is second generation of Jordan, he has Jordan's desire to win too, so does the competitiveness, their character seems close too...

[alexandreben]

when you are constantly shooting jumpers when triple teamed, Your basketball IQ is LOW..,

When you are constantly taking low percentage shots (even if you might make some) Your ball IQ is Low..
If it's in that case, the young Jordan's ball IQ was low too back in the 80's.

[ginobli2311]

If it's in that case, the young Jordan's ball IQ was low too back in the 80's.

this is where we disagree a little. kobe's team this year, in 08, and 04 were all far greater than anything jordan had in his first 4 or 5 years in the league. kobe did not need to play the way he did in these series......he played the wrong way and it cost his team in 04 and 08.....and it nearly cost his team this year....and it probably should have.

that is my huge frustration with kobe. he sometimes plays like he's out there with scrubs......when in reality he has probably played with as much or more talent than any other player in the history of the game. why was he shooting twice as much as shaq in the 04 finals? why was he jacking up terrible jumpers in 08 and this year against the celtics? The mere fact that kobe's career finals fg% is less than 41% illustrates how poor his decision making has been.

a great player like kobe....especially in his prime could really only be stopped by himself. kobe should have played the entire series this year like he did in game 6. he should have attacked the boards night in and night out.......and he should have attacked the rim when he got the ball to either get to the line or set up his teammates. he chose to take terrible shots and play the wrong way for the 3rd time in his last 4 finals (if you count the orlando series as playing well.....which is highly debatable). that is my big problem with kobe.....still at age 31 in his 14th year in the league he makes himself bigger than the game at the worst times. not one of the other top 10 to 12 players had on court issues like that. and certainly not late in their careers.

[LA_Showtime]

I think the team defenses were very similar. but gary payton was literally ten times the defender that ray allen or tony allen is. people either forget or are too young to know the kind of defender payton was. he's one of the 10 to 15 best perimeter defenders of all time. he was in the heart of his prime in 96 and was a tough matchup for jordan.

i have the series on dvd. trust me....jordan played well to shoot 42%. also....the rest of the bulls were awful for most of that series....jordan had to take a lot of forced shots that he normally wouldn't have taken.

basically the exact opposite of kobe. kobe had a matchup he should have been able to exploit...but he couldn't. kobe also should have deferred to his teammates because they were playing better than him. jordan had a brutal matchup and his teammates were really struggling so it forced him to do more.

i can't remember....but i think jordan was more efficient from the field than kobe was as well.

Did they not have periods and commas in the '90s?

[alexandreben]

this is where we disagree a little. kobe's team this year, in 08, and 04 were all far greater than anything jordan had in his first 4 or 5 years in the league. kobe did not need to play the way he did in these series......he played the wrong way and it cost his team in 04 and 08.....and it nearly cost his team this year....and it probably should have.

that is my huge frustration with kobe. he sometimes plays like he's out there with scrubs......when in reality he has probably played with as much or more talent than any other player in the history of the game. why was he shooting twice as much as shaq in the 04 finals? why was he jacking up terrible jumpers in 08 and this year against the celtics? The mere fact that kobe's career finals fg% is less than 41% illustrates how poor his decision making has been.

a great player like kobe....especially in his prime could really only be stopped by himself. kobe should have played the entire series this year like he did in game 6. he should have attacked the boards night in and night out.......and he should have attacked the rim when he got the ball to either get to the line or set up his teammates. he chose to take terrible shots and play the wrong way for the 3rd time in his last 4 finals (if you count the orlando series as playing well.....which is highly debatable). that is my big problem with kobe.....still at age 31 in his 14th year in the league he makes himself bigger than the game at the worst times. not one of the other top 10 to 12 players had on court issues like that. and certainly not late in their careers.
With the defensive three-second violation rule and the hand-checking elimination, Kobe should've driven into the paint and get to the line instead of choosing terrible low percentage 41% shooting, however, he doesn't have the speed like Wade does...

And with his super ego... hence the tragic fact

[chopchop20]

Agree, Payton is unique defensive player, less muscle and weight(means better speed and quickness), short enough to be more agile but not too short:
http://dimemag.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/jordan_payton_96.jpg
maybe only Fraizer can compare with GP...


96' Supersonics defense certainly not as good as Knicks and Pistons in the early 90's, question is, was it as good as the 2010 finals' Celtics?

Jordan had the advantage over Payton - he was bigger and much stronger

[chopchop20]

this is where we disagree a little. kobe's team this year, in 08, and 04 were all far greater than anything jordan had in his first 4 or 5 years in the league. kobe did not need to play the way he did in these series......he played the wrong way and it cost his team in 04 and 08.....and it nearly cost his team this year....and it probably should have.

that is my huge frustration with kobe. he sometimes plays like he's out there with scrubs......when in reality he has probably played with as much or more talent than any other player in the history of the game. why was he shooting twice as much as shaq in the 04 finals? why was he jacking up terrible jumpers in 08 and this year against the celtics? The mere fact that kobe's career finals fg% is less than 41% illustrates how poor his decision making has been.

a great player like kobe....especially in his prime could really only be stopped by himself. kobe should have played the entire series this year like he did in game 6. he should have attacked the boards night in and night out.......and he should have attacked the rim when he got the ball to either get to the line or set up his teammates. he chose to take terrible shots and play the wrong way for the 3rd time in his last 4 finals (if you count the orlando series as playing well.....which is highly debatable). that is my big problem with kobe.....still at age 31 in his 14th year in the league he makes himself bigger than the game at the worst times. not one of the other top 10 to 12 players had on court issues like that. and certainly not late in their careers.

Yada Yada Yada... dude just won his 5th ring. ACCEPT IT

[amfirst]

Just watching the Sonics vs Jordan clip already proves that the 2010 Celtics defense is way better. Here are a few reasons why.

Kobe got double at the three point line vs. Jordan got double when he was able to catch the ball in the post.

Kobe consistently had players hand check him. Both Allens consistently were reaching in all game long. And on the drive they would push on his shoulder to slow him down. Refs didn't call any fouls. Jordan didn't have to deal with much reaching in.

Kobe has a hand in his face on every shot. Jordan got a hand up but not nearly as closely contested and had a clear look at the rim.

Celtics were already in position to defend when Kobe catches the ball. Sonics rotated when Jordan attacked the rim making it easy to draw a foul.

Just about every shot Kobe release made contact with the defenders hand. MJ didn't have to deal with this. The defense made just enough contact with his stroke to not get a foul call. That is how detailed today's defense is. People just need to accept it.

Kobe's triple team came when he got close to the paint. Jordan's triple team came when he was already in the paint.

People need to just accept the fact that defensive schemes have improve over time. And stop looking back at out dated defensive plays. In today's game u have replays and scouting reports pages long, it really makes a big difference.

I would like to see someone else explain how the defense was better against Jordan.

Also, the Celtics broke down every pass Kobe likes to do on any given part of the court. They had a man waiting to intercept his passes, so Kobe was force to pass to Gasol and Gasol dished it to the open man, which was Artest most of the time. Those 1-2 passes MJ made to the open guy does not work against the Celtics because they anticipate it, so and 2nd passes has to be dish out to a third guy. Celtics force the third option to step up. The Sonics allowed the 2nd option to get a good shot.

I would like someone to prove me wrong. U know deep down inside, I'm right. Your hate for Kobe has blinded u.

[chopchop20]

Just watching the Sonics vs Jordan clip already proves that the 2010 Celtics defense is way better. Here are a few reasons why.

Kobe got double at the three point line vs. Jordan got double when he was able to catch the ball in the post.

Kobe consistently had players hand check him. Both Allens consistently were reaching in all game long. And on the drive they would push on his shoulder to slow him down. Refs didn't call any fouls. Jordan didn't have to deal with much reaching in.

Kobe has a hand in his face on every shot. Jordan got a hand up but not nearly as closely contested and had a clear look at the rim.

Celtics were already in position to defend when Kobe catches the ball. Sonics rotated when Jordan attacked the rim making it easy to draw a foul.

Just about every shot Kobe release made contact with the defenders hand. MJ didn't have to deal with this. The defense made just enough contact with his stroke to not get a foul call. That is how detailed today's defense is. People just need to accept it.

Kobe's triple team came when he got close to the paint. Jordan's triple team came when he was already in the paint.

People need to just accept the fact that defensive schemes have improve over time. And stop looking back at out dated defensive plays. In today's game u have replays and scouting reports pages long, it really makes a big difference.

I would like to see someone else explain how the defense was better against Jordan.

Also, the Celtics broke down every pass Kobe likes to do on any given part of the court. They had a man waiting to intercept his passes, so Kobe was force to pass to Gasol and Gasol dished it to the open man, which was Artest most of the time. Those 1-2 passes MJ made to the open guy does not work against the Celtics because they anticipate it, so and 2nd passes has to be dish out to a third guy. Celtics force the third option to step up. The Sonics allowed the 2nd option to get a good shot.

I would like someone to prove me wrong. U know deep down inside, I'm right. Your hate for Kobe has blinded u.

+1

Not only the schemes but the athleticism of big guys to be able to rotate and cover a much wider area.

[alexandreben]

Just watching the Sonics vs Jordan clip already proves that the 2010 Celtics defense is way better. Here are a few reasons why.

Kobe got double at the three point line vs. Jordan got double when he was able to catch the ball in the post.

Kobe consistently had players hand check him. Both Allens consistently were reaching in all game long. And on the drive they would push on his shoulder to slow him down. Refs didn't call any fouls. Jordan didn't have to deal with much reaching in.

Kobe has a hand in his face on every shot. Jordan got a hand up but not nearly as closely contested and had a clear look at the rim.

Celtics were already in position to defend when Kobe catches the ball. Sonics rotated when Jordan attacked the rim making it easy to draw a foul.

Just about every shot Kobe release made contact with the defenders hand. MJ didn't have to deal with this. The defense made just enough contact with his stroke to not get a foul call. That is how detailed today's defense is. People just need to accept it.

Kobe's triple team came when he got close to the paint. Jordan's triple team came when he was already in the paint.

People need to just accept the fact that defensive schemes have improve over time. And stop looking back at out dated defensive plays. In today's game u have replays and scouting reports pages long, it really makes a big difference.

I would like to see someone else explain how the defense was better against Jordan.

Also, the Celtics broke down every pass Kobe likes to do on any given part of the court. They had a man waiting to intercept his passes, so Kobe was force to pass to Gasol and Gasol dished it to the open man, which was Artest most of the time. Those 1-2 passes MJ made to the open guy does not work against the Celtics because they anticipate it, so and 2nd passes has to be dish out to a third guy. Celtics force the third option to step up. The Sonics allowed the 2nd option to get a good shot.

I would like someone to prove me wrong. U know deep down inside, I'm right. Your hate for Kobe has blinded u.
In overall, Jordan faced much tougher defense than Kobe has been facing, I think this has been proved a lot of times, in this thread, I am talking about a very specific defense match up:
1996 Supersonics vs 2010 Celtics

Maybe the 2010 Celtics' defense is indeed better than the 1996's, maybe not, we're here to discuss it, not to hate Jordan or hate Kobe.

Regarding to what you said that "Kobe consistently had players hand check him."... I could be wrong, but I don't remember somebody consistently hand-checking Kobe in the 2010 finals.

[alexandreben]

+1

Not only the schemes but the athleticism of big guys to be able to rotate and cover a much wider area.
The 2008 KG was way better than 2010 KG, and other big guys nowadays? They are really a big joke compare with the old schools...

[alexandreben]

Jordan had the advantage over Payton - he was bigger and much stronger
Indeed, so does Kobe had advantage over Ray Allen.

[Batz]

Indeed, so does Kobe had advantage over Ray Allen.
By like an inch or two...?

[chopchop20]

Seriously, how could anyone watching that footage of the Seattle defense think they're any where near the Celtics. 2010 Celts are so much better than them.

Sam Perkins as your last line of defense? :roll:

Jordan getting ISOLATIONS -- on Detlef no less... :roll:

Soft Double Teams reminds me of Phoenix :roll:

[chopchop20]

The 2008 KG was way better than 2010 KG, and other big guys nowadays? They are really a big joke compare with the old schools...

Big Sam is better than Kendrick? :roll:

[chopchop20]

By like an inch or two...?

Naw Ray has about an inch on Kobe

[ginobli2311]

+1

Not only the schemes but the athleticism of big guys to be able to rotate and cover a much wider area.

the sonics had athletic guys as well. kemp is head and shoulders above any player the celtics have as an athlete. the facts are that nothing points to the celtics having a better defense. the sonics had a better defensive rating. they had the best defender out of either team in gary payton......and they held the entire bulls team to terrible shooting efficiency for the entire series....including forcing jordan (the likely GOAT) to his worst finals performance ever.

the celtics just weren't better by any measure actually. just look at what wade did to them. hell.....look at what lebron was able to do against them with no help whatsoever.....lol....and lebron played poorly. kobe made the celtics defense look a lot better than it actually is. if he had shared the ball and played the right way the lakers would have trounced the celtics in 5 or 6 games at most.

i think we would all agree that jordan was better than kobe and pippen is better than gasol. yet jordan put up only slightly better numbers than kobe and pippen wasn't nearly as good as gasol when you compare the two series.

so either kobe/gasol > jordan/pippen....or the sonics played better defense....its really that simple.

oh....and the bulls had the best offensive rating in the league.....at 115.2 compared to the lakers 11th best at 108.8. the bulls offense had been destroying people left and right all year and then they ran into a great sonics defense and really struggled. kobe and the lakers had an average offense that always struggles against good defense. the thunder series is direct evidence of this.

so in total:
sonics had a better defensive rating
the bulls (excluding jordan) struggled more overall than the lakers did (excluding kobe).....the bulls had a much better offense
gary payton would easily be the best defensive player between the two teams

so the sonics had more success going up against a better team, better players, and a much better offense. how are the celtics better again?

[chopchop20]

the sonics had athletic guys as well. kemp is head and shoulders above any player the celtics have as an athlete. the facts are that nothing points to the celtics having a better defense. the sonics had a better defensive rating. they had the best defender out of either team in gary payton......and they held the entire bulls team to terrible shooting efficiency for the entire series....including forcing jordan (the likely GOAT) to his worst finals performance ever.

the celtics just weren't better by any measure actually. just look at what wade did to them. hell.....look at what lebron was able to do against them with no help whatsoever.....lol....and lebron played poorly. kobe made the celtics defense look a lot better than it actually is. if he had shared the ball and played the right way the lakers would have trounced the celtics in 5 or 6 games at most.

i think we would all agree that jordan was better than kobe and pippen is better than gasol. yet jordan put up only slightly better numbers than kobe and pippen wasn't nearly as good as gasol when you compare the two series.

so either kobe/gasol > jordan/pippen....or the sonics played better defense....its really that simple.

1. The tape does not lie
2. Holding the Bulls to a poor FG% does not make you great. Utah did it 2 years later. The 2nd 3peat Bulls were not invincible
3. We saw what the Celtics did to Wade and LeBron -- sent them fishing
4. What do Jordan and Pips stats mean, when the argument is the Celtics are a better defense than the Sonics :confusedshrug:

[sosolid4u09]

Piece from an article which should answer your question]

Source: http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2010/6/21/1525036/kobe-bryants-game-7-in-perspective

Putting History's Greatest Players in a Defensive Context
Let's try and place Boston's D within the larger context, shall we?

Michael Jordan appeared in six NBA Finals series. These are the defensive ratings (points allowed per 100 possessions) of those six teams: 105.0, 104.2, 106.7, 102.1, 104.0, and 105.4.

This year's Celtics team had a defensive rating of 103.8. That's better than five of the six defenses Jordan faced in the Finals:But even that is misleading, since even the dullest of NBA observers knows full well that the Celtics in 2009-10 regular season were nothing like the team that showed up for the playoffs — let alone the team that nearly won the NBA championship. During the regular season, this Celtics team employed a deliberate strategy of saving their best players for the post-season. As a result, over their final 54 games they were 27-27. Their defense in the regular season, after Christmas, was barely a shadow of the defense they played in the playoffs. In fact, it was actually quite bad.

Perhaps that is the most significant indicator in all of this. Their regular season defense, when compared to the way they played in the playoffs and especially the Finals, was really pretty terrible — and yet, it was better than that of 12 of the 15 teams Magic and Michael played in the Finals.

Meanwhile, the Celtics' defense in the 2010 Finals, particularly in that Game 7, was much more reminiscent of their team that won the 2008 NBA Championship. That team's defensive rating? 98.9.

Michael Jordan never played against that kind of defense in the Finals. And yet, in nine of the 35 games he played in the NBA Finals, he took more or less the same number of shots as he had points — including one in which he took 43 shots to score 44 points!

[ginobli2311]

1. The tape does not lie
2. Holding the Bulls to a poor FG% does not make you great. Utah did it 2 years later. The 2nd 3peat Bulls were not invincible
3. We saw what the Celtics did to Wade and LeBron -- sent them fishing
4. What do Jordan and Pips stats mean, when the argument is the Celtics are a better defense than the Sonics :confusedshrug:

are you serious?

the 96 bulls are arguably the best team in nba history. they were both the best offensive team and defensive team in the league.

the point about wade and lebron is simply that other star players had more success than kobe did. i honestly don't understand what you are saying at all. the bulls were much better offensively than the lakers were. yet the sonics actually held the bulls to worse overall numbers than the the celtics did to a far inferior offensive team in the lakers.

jordan and pips stats are relevant because of how much they struggled. just look at pippen.....he shot under 36% in 4 of the six games. jordan had his worst finals ever. so either jordan/pippen and the bulls just randomly played terrible after dominating the league all year.....or the sonics played great defense.

the lakers were not a great offensive team at any point this year. kobe played exactly how he always plays in the finals. terrible shot selection and inefficient shooting. how can you credit the celtics for holding kobe to his averages? and to top things off......the lakers struggled big time against the thunder earlier in the playoffs.....why is this important? because the thunder play good defense as well.

again....what is more impressive? holding kobe/gasol essentially to their averages on an average offensive team at best.....or....holding pippen/jordan well below their averages on easily the best offensive team in the league?

its really not even a debate.

[chopchop20]

[QUOTE=sosolid4u09]Piece from an article which should answer your question]

Source: http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2010/6/21/1525036/kobe-bryants-game-7-in-perspective

Putting History's Greatest Players in a Defensive Context
Let's try and place Boston's D within the larger context, shall we?

Michael Jordan appeared in six NBA Finals series. These are the defensive ratings (points allowed per 100 possessions) of those six teams: 105.0, 104.2, 106.7, 102.1, 104.0, and 105.4.

This year's Celtics team had a defensive rating of 103.8. That's better than five of the six defenses Jordan faced in the Finals:But even that is misleading, since even the dullest of NBA observers knows full well that the Celtics in 2009-10 regular season were nothing like the team that showed up for the playoffs

[ashbelly]

So how come


kobe shot 40 %FG

Lebron Shot 45%Fg

Wade shot - 56% FG


against the same celtics defense yet Lebron and Wade lost while Kobe won the series against them ???

[ginobli2311]

[QUOTE=sosolid4u09]Piece from an article which should answer your question]

Source: http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2010/6/21/1525036/kobe-bryants-game-7-in-perspective

Putting History's Greatest Players in a Defensive Context
Let's try and place Boston's D within the larger context, shall we?

Michael Jordan appeared in six NBA Finals series. These are the defensive ratings (points allowed per 100 possessions) of those six teams: 105.0, 104.2, 106.7, 102.1, 104.0, and 105.4.

This year's Celtics team had a defensive rating of 103.8. That's better than five of the six defenses Jordan faced in the Finals:But even that is misleading, since even the dullest of NBA observers knows full well that the Celtics in 2009-10 regular season were nothing like the team that showed up for the playoffs

[chopchop20]

are you serious?

the 96 bulls are arguably the best team in nba history. they were both the best offensive team and defensive team in the league.

the point about wade and lebron is simply that other star players had more success than kobe did. i honestly don't understand what you are saying at all. the bulls were much better offensively than the lakers were. yet the sonics actually held the bulls to worse overall numbers than the the celtics did to a far inferior offensive team in the lakers.

jordan and pips stats are relevant because of how much they struggled. just look at pippen.....he shot under 36% in 4 of the six games. jordan had his worst finals ever. so either jordan/pippen and the bulls just randomly played terrible after dominating the league all year.....or the sonics played great defense.

the lakers were not a great offensive team at any point this year. kobe played exactly how he always plays in the finals. terrible shot selection and inefficient shooting. how can you credit the celtics for holding kobe to his averages? and to top things off......the lakers struggled big time against the thunder earlier in the playoffs.....why is this important? because the thunder play good defense as well.

again....what is more impressive? holding kobe/gasol essentially to their averages on an average offensive team at best.....or....holding pippen/jordan well below their averages on easily the best offensive team in the league?

its really not even a debate.

1. Only in your version of history
2. Yeah... the Lakers were only at the top of the league in offensive stats :oldlol: . You want to pretend that they were mediocre to diminish the credit due to Boston
3. OKC was in until Kobe got his knee drained, then we spanked them at home
4. Kobe and Pau were held below their playoff averages just like Jordan and Pip

[sosolid4u09]

So how come


kobe shot 40 %FG

Lebron Shot 45%Fg

Wade shot - 56% FG


against the same celtics defense yet Lebron and Wade lost while Kobe won the series against them ???

The celtics got better and better with each series!
By the time they played the lakers their defense was pritty much at full pelt all the time.

Sure Kobe took some bad shots throughout the series but one reason why Kobe's shooting percentage isnt always as high as wade or lebrons is simply coz Kobe takes THE toughest shots anyone in the nba has ever taken! Kobe shooting 45% during reg season includes 2/3 ''WTF HOW DID HE MAKE THAT'' shots.

[ashbelly]

So how come


kobe shot 40 %FG

Lebron Shot 45%Fg

Wade shot - 56% FG


against the same celtics defense yet Lebron and Wade lost while Kobe won the series against them ???



:rant :rant :rant :rant

[ginobli2311]

everyone here just forgets how flawed the lakers were on offense this year.....and everyone clearly forgets that kobe is a career 41% shooter in the nba finals. people also clearly forget that gasol played a pretty damn good series overall.

[chopchop20]

-1

pretending like all teams don't step up their play in the playoffs is beyond absurd. you think that the jazz in 97/98 didn't coast through parts of the regular season.

the 08 celtics were better than the 96 sonics on defense. the 2010 celtics were not as good defensively.

again...what is more impressive. forcing pippen/jordan and the best offense in the league to play far worse than normal...or...forcing kob/gasol and a good no great offense to their averages?

how is this even a debate?

Who's to say what the better Celtics defense would have held Joordan and Pippen to... :rolleyes:

[ashbelly]

The celtics got better and better with each series!
By the time they played the lakers their defense was pritty much at full pelt all the time.

Sure Kobe took some bad shots throughout the series but one reason why Kobe's shooting percentage isnt always as high as wade or lebrons is simply coz Kobe takes THE toughest shots anyone in the nba has ever taken! Kobe shooting 45% during reg season includes 2/3 ''WTF HOW DID HE MAKE THAT'' shots.


:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: Quit lying, Kobe had better team mates and Coach than lebron and Wade. i.e his team mates bailed Kobe out. Ok then is it a coincidence that Kobe shot 43% FG last year against the magic?? So the magic are a better defensive team than 1996 Sonics too ?? :oldlol:

[sosolid4u09]

-1

pretending like all teams don't step up their play in the playoffs is beyond absurd. you think that the jazz in 97/98 didn't coast through parts of the regular season.

the 08 celtics were better than the 96 sonics on defense. the 2010 celtics were not as good defensively.

again...what is more impressive. forcing pippen/jordan and the best offense in the league to play far worse than normal...or...forcing kob/gasol and a good no great offense to their averages?

how is this even a debate?

Your talking about best defensive teams! So your only gonna include playoff stats? Or finals stats? The celtics had a defensive rating of 98.9 in the finals ffs!

And why is it that when its KOBE, he shot badly in the finals not because of celtics defense, but because he just took shit shots, but when it comes to MJ he shot badly coz of sonics defense? Your hypocrisy is astounding at times.

Also Pau and Kobe were held below their PLAYOFF averages. Look at kobe in the suns series WCF. Your gonna say oh kobe played against a shit defense.... yet when kobe doesnt shoot well, its coz he takes bad shots, not coz hes playing a good defense?

[ginobli2311]

The celtics got better and better with each series!
By the time they played the lakers their defense was pritty much at full pelt all the time.

Sure Kobe took some bad shots throughout the series but one reason why Kobe's shooting percentage isnt always as high as wade or lebrons is simply coz Kobe takes THE toughest shots anyone in the nba has ever taken! Kobe shooting 45% during reg season includes 2/3 ''WTF HOW DID HE MAKE THAT'' shots.

partly true. but why would you credit the celtics with kobe's bad shot selection? do you see the inherent flaw in your logic? kobe just took terrible shots all series long and played outside of the offense. i have the sonics v. bulls series on dvd. jordan was not taking terrible shots. he was taking shots within the offense mostly and the sonics were playing great defense on. same for pippen....pippen could not do anything all series long. he only took good shots for the most part and he shot under 36% in 4 games was sub 38% for the series i think.

also....its a little absurd to try and pretend like the celtics defense just miraculously got much better from the heat to the cavs to the lakers. thats just revisionist history at its finest.

[chopchop20]

everyone here just forgets how flawed the lakers were on offense this year.....and everyone clearly forgets that kobe is a career 41% shooter in the nba finals. people also clearly forget that gasol played a pretty damn good series overall.

:roll: :roll:

The Lakers were flawed... thus making Boston's defense seem less significant? :oldlol: You should work in Washington, because you're a spin doctor savant

Yeah, the Lakers were so bad.... at the top of the league scoring in the paint
Yeah, the Lakers were so bad.... the best offense in the playoffs

You clearly forget that Kobe has played in 7 Finals in 14 years. Won 5, so he must be doing something right :oldlol:

[ginobli2311]

Your talking about best defensive teams! So your only gonna include playoff stats? Or finals stats? The celtics had a defensive rating of 98.9 in the finals ffs!

And why is it that when its KOBE, he shot badly in the finals not because of celtics defense, but because he just took shit shots, but when it comes to MJ he shot badly coz of sonics defense? Your hypocrisy is astounding at times.

Also Pau and Kobe were held below their PLAYOFF averages. Look at kobe in the suns series WCF. Your gonna say oh kobe played against a shit defense.... yet when kobe doesnt shoot well, its coz he takes bad shots, not coz hes playing a good defense?

ok....im going to try and refrain from name calling. but your post is so flawed.

kobe DID take terrible shots. are you going to honestly debate that?
now....the difference is that kobe's career finals averages are exactly what he put up against the celtics. kobe has now played 7 finals....he shoots 41%....exactly what he did in this series. do you understand the difference between holding a player to their average or holding a player to well below their average?

again....the suns/jazz series are not a good comparison. those teams play weak defense. the better comparison is the thunder as they actually play good defense. in that series the lakers and kobe really struggled to score the ball as well.

stop acting like the lakers had a great offensive team (they were 11th in the league) and stop acting like kobe played worse than he normally does in the finals.

i never said the celtics were not good defensively. they are.....but a big reason why kobe and the lakers struggled was because of how kobe played. he dominated the ball and took terrible shots outside of the offense. this negatively impacted the rest of his team. if you can't admit that or see that then you are too biased or too blind.

[chopchop20]

partly true. but why would you credit the celtics with kobe's bad shot selection? do you see the inherent flaw in your logic? kobe just took terrible shots all series long and played outside of the offense. i have the sonics v. bulls series on dvd. jordan was not taking terrible shots. he was taking shots within the offense mostly and the sonics were playing great defense on. same for pippen....pippen could not do anything all series long. he only took good shots for the most part and he shot under 36% in 4 games was sub 38% for the series i think.

also....its a little absurd to try and pretend like the celtics defense just miraculously got much better from the heat to the cavs to the lakers. thats just revisionist history at its finest.

The numbers don't lie -- only you do

[ginobli2311]

:roll: :roll:

The Lakers were flawed... thus making Boston's defense seem less significant? :oldlol: You should work in Washington, because you're a spin doctor savant

Yeah, the Lakers were so bad.... at the top of the league scoring in the paint
Yeah, the Lakers were so bad.... the best offense in the playoffs

You clearly forget that Kobe has played in 7 Finals in 14 years. Won 5, so he must be doing something right :oldlol:

ok...i never said the lakers were bad. they just didn't have a great offense and they always struggle against the good defenses in the league. that is a fact dude.

never said kobe wasn't good either. he just always shoots 41% from the field in the finals and rarely plays up to his standards. again....another fact.

comparing the lakers offensively to the bulls offensively is a joke. comparing level of play of jordan/pippen and the bulls that year to the play of kobe/gasol and the lakers this year is a joke.

the reason its apt to bring that up is because the bulls were arguably the greatest nba team ever. and the sonics really put the screws to them. its not nearly as impressive for the celtics to hold a good not great offensive team to their averages. how do you not understand that.

how is this good defense? kobe averages 41% in the finals. celtics held kobe to 41% in the finals. seriously?

[ginobli2311]

The numbers don't lie -- only you do

sorry dude. you have been owned on this one. throw in the towel. lol at you people trying to credit defense for holding a player to his averages and getting slaughtered on the boards by gasol all series. yea....great D guys.

[chopchop20]

ok....im going to try and refrain from name calling. but your post is so flawed.

kobe DID take terrible shots. are you going to honestly debate that?
now....the difference is that kobe's career finals averages are exactly what he put up against the celtics. kobe has now played 7 finals....he shoots 41%....exactly what he did in this series. do you understand the difference between holding a player to their average or holding a player to well below their average?

again....the suns/jazz series are not a good comparison. those teams play weak defense. the better comparison is the thunder as they actually play good defense. in that series the lakers and kobe really struggled to score the ball as well.

stop acting like the lakers had a great offensive team (they were 11th in the league) and stop acting like kobe played worse than he normally does in the finals.

i never said the celtics were not good defensively. they are.....but a big reason why kobe and the lakers struggled was because of how kobe played. he dominated the ball and took terrible shots outside of the offense. this negatively impacted the rest of his team. if you can't admit that or see that then you are too biased or too blind.

:rolleyes:

Kobe played the same way he played all playoffs. The same guy that assassinated OKC after he got his knee drained... the same guy that dominated Utah and Phoenix... the same guy who was the best in the Playoffs in 2010...

If it aint broke, don't fix... only an idiot would insinuate that Kobe all off a sudden start jacking shots for the h.ell of it after what he done coming into the series was working very well. Give Boston credit for playing great defense

[sosolid4u09]

The numbers don't lie -- only you do

comeon dont you get it?

The celtics defensive numbers got better because the LAKERS played shitter offense than the heat and cavs :lol :lol :lol , not coz the celtics actually played better defense

Yet they won the title ........

Also dont forget that the ONLY reason kobe has won 5 finals is because hes shit and someone else helped him along the way :lol :lol :lol

Also dont forget the main argument.
When MJ shoots badly, its coz of great defense
When Kobe shoots badly its coz hes selfish and shit and takes bad shots and is shit and is a bad leader and is shit and has a low basketball IQ :lol :lol :lol

[chopchop20]

sorry dude. you have been owned on this one. throw in the towel. lol at you people trying to credit defense for holding a player to his averages and getting slaughtered on the boards by gasol all series. yea....great D guys.

Boston was at the bottom of the league in rebounding all year :rolleyes:

[sosolid4u09]

:rolleyes:

Kobe played the same way he played all playoffs. The same guy that assassinated OKC after he got his knee drained... the same guy that dominated Utah and Phoenix... the same guy who was the best in the Playoffs in 2010...

If it aint broke, don't fix... only an idiot would insinuate that Kobe all off a sudden start jacking shots for the h.ell of it after what he done coming into the series was working very well. Give Boston credit for playing great defense

exactly.
These clowns forget that kobe was shooting near enough 50% these playoffs, playing the exact same way as he did in the finals against the celtics. The fact his shooting % dropped nearly 10% is not down to the celtics defense apparently, its down to kobe just being shit and taking bad shots.

They mention how kobe was held to his ''average'' ppg but forget his average shooting % through the playoffs. Instead they find his shooting % from his past finals appearances to compare it to.

[ginobli2311]

:rolleyes:

Kobe played the same way he played all playoffs. The same guy that assassinated OKC after he got his knee drained... the same guy that dominated Utah and Phoenix... the same guy who was the best in the Playoffs in 2010...

If it aint broke, don't fix... only an idiot would insinuate that Kobe all off a sudden start jacking shots for the h.ell of it after what he done coming into the series was working very well. Give Boston credit for playing great defense

lol...if it aint broke? lol....does 03, 04, or 08 ring a bell. how did that work out for kobe in the playoffs?

oh and........the thunder series:
game 1 - 6 of 19
game 2 - 12 of 28
game 3 - 10 of 29
game 4 - 5 of 10
game 5 - 4 of 9
game 6 - 12 of 25

yea....what an assassin in that series. LOL......again. when someone plays the way they normally do.....you can't credit the defense. it does not make sense.

jordan shot 7% less than his career average in the finals. kobe shot nearly his identical percentage. sorry.......doesn't compute.

[sosolid4u09]

lol...if it aint broke? lol....does 03, 04, or 08 ring a bell. how did that work out for kobe in the playoffs?

oh and........the thunder series:
game 1 - 6 of 19
game 2 - 12 of 28
game 3 - 10 of 29
game 4 - 5 of 10
game 5 - 4 of 9
game 6 - 12 of 25

yea....what an assassin in that series. LOL......again. when someone plays the way they normally do.....you can't credit the defense. it does not make sense.

jordan shot 7% less than his career average in the finals. kobe shot nearly his identical percentage. sorry.......doesn't compute.

You look at kobes past finals stats..... how about looking at kobes PLAYOFF STATS THIS SEASON which is SURELY a better indicator as to how he is PLAYING CURRENTLY.

He shot near 50% in the playoffs, playing in the exact same way he played in the finals, where he shot 41%. SO thats a 9% drop in shooting % playing the same way..... and your saying thats not down to boston defense... come on?

[ginobli2311]

exactly.
These clowns forget that kobe was shooting near enough 50% these playoffs, playing the exact same way as he did in the finals against the celtics. The fact his shooting % dropped nearly 10% is not down to the celtics defense apparently, its down to kobe just being shit and taking bad shots.

They mention how kobe was held to his ''average'' ppg but forget his average shooting % through the playoffs. Instead they find his shooting % from his past finals appearances to compare it to.

look at every year in the playoff compared to the finals. i will drop off tremendously. kobe really struggles in the finals compared to his overall play in the playoffs. in 08 kobe was lighting teams up as well and then struggled in the finals. same thing last year with orlando. same thing in 04. they are averages for a reason. he's played in the finals 7 times now....i think the sample size is big enough.

again.....please answer...what is more impressive?

holding kobe/gasol to essentially their averages?
or
holding jordan/pippen well below their averages?

holding the best offense in the league well below their averages?
or
holding a good but not great offense at their averages?

????????????????????????????????????????????

[chopchop20]

exactly.
These clowns forget that kobe was shooting near enough 50% these playoffs, playing the exact same way as he did in the finals against the celtics. The fact his shooting % dropped nearly 10% is not down to the celtics defense apparently, its down to kobe just being shit and taking bad shots.

They mention how kobe was held to his ''average'' ppg but forget his average shooting % through the playoffs. Instead they find his shooting % from his past finals appearances to compare it to.

So true.... but leave it to the spin doctors to try to twist logic to support their weak arguments. I like how they try to dismiss the rest of the Playoffs as if those games don't matter. Kobe was shooting like 52% from the field averaging about 32 points coming into the series against Boston. Clearly the best overall numbers in the Playoffs. The guy had just taken Phoenix's will by hitting shots every on the court.

Yet according to some of these guys, he suddenly starts jacking bad shots against Boston. Why would he do anything differently than he had been doing? Why would he do anything to ruin his chances of winning the title :confusedshrug:

As if Kobe's goal for the season was to put up great stats in the Finals as opposed to actually WINNING :oldlol:

[chopchop20]

look at every year in the playoff compared to the finals. i will drop off tremendously. kobe really struggles in the finals compared to his overall play in the playoffs. in 08 kobe was lighting teams up as well and then struggled in the finals. same thing last year with orlando. same thing in 04. they are averages for a reason. he's played in the finals 7 times now....i think the sample size is big enough.

again.....please answer...what is more impressive?

holding kobe/gasol to essentially their averages?
or
holding jordan/pippen well below their averages?

holding the best offense in the league well below their averages?
or
holding a good but not great offense at their averages?

????????????????????????????????????????????

holding kobe/gasol to essentially their averages?
or
holding jordan/pippen well below their averages?

Dude ur making up sh.it

holding a good but not great offense at their averages?

That's totally subjective... it's not true just because you say so.

Furthermore, who's to say that the 1996 Bulls offense was as good as the 2010 Lakers

[sosolid4u09]

So true.... but leave it to the spin doctors to try to twist logic to support their weak arguments. I like how they try to dismiss the rest of the Playoffs as if those games don't matter. Kobe was shooting like 52% from the field averaging about 32 points coming into the series against Boston. Clearly the best overall numbers in the Playoffs. The guy had just taken Phoenix's will by hitting shots every on the court.

Yet according to some of these guys, he suddenly starts jacking bad shots against Boston. Why would he do anything differently than he had been doing? Why would he do anything to ruin his chances of winning the title :confusedshrug:

As if Kobe's goal for the season was to put up great stats in the Finals as opposed to actually WINNING :oldlol:

trust me haters gnna hate. No way to make them see the light lol.

I love how they use certain stats which suit their cause,,, but ignore others which disprove them.

You show them stats for reg season defensive ratings..... they say oh no every team raises their defense during the playoffs.
They say how the lakers offense was flawed through the reg season....but then forget that the lakers offense was MUCH better in the playoffs.

Kobe drops 9% in shooting from playoffs to finals, its coz kobe is suddenly taking bad shots....
MJ shoots below his average in the finals.... its coz the sonics defense was astonishingly good.

I mean seriously wtf can you do about that :lol :lol :lol

[ginobli2311]

So true.... but leave it to the spin doctors to try to twist logic to support their weak arguments. I like how they try to dismiss the rest of the Playoffs as if those games don't matter. Kobe was shooting like 52% from the field averaging about 32 points coming into the series against Boston. Clearly the best overall numbers in the Playoffs. The guy had just taken Phoenix's will by hitting shots every on the court.

Yet according to some of these guys, he suddenly starts jacking bad shots against Boston. Why would he do anything differently than he had been doing? Why would he do anything to ruin his chances of winning the title :confusedshrug:

As if Kobe's goal for the season was to put up great stats in the Finals as opposed to actually WINNING :oldlol:

ok guys....keep living in fantasy land. nobody is saying that the celtics did not play good defense. but what you are forgetting is that kobe was excelling against poor defenses and great matchups against the jazz/suns. why did he struggle so much against the thunder? and why has he always struggled against good defenses and in the finals every time of his career?

at some point you can't try to pretend that every single time he plays poorly its great defense. it it was such great defense then the celtics would have had much better success against guys like lebron and wade. paul pierce himself admitted they could not stop wade. you can't have it both ways.

you are also ignoring the debate now. its about the sonics vs the celtics defensively. the sonics had better results agains a better team and better players. you follow? or is a career chucker in the finals like kobe harder to stop than MJ or Gasol is harder to slow down than pippen? because that is basically what you are saying if you think the celtics were better.

[chopchop20]

lol...if it aint broke? lol....does 03, 04, or 08 ring a bell. how did that work out for kobe in the playoffs?

oh and........the thunder series:
game 1 - 6 of 19
game 2 - 12 of 28
game 3 - 10 of 29
game 4 - 5 of 10
game 5 - 4 of 9
game 6 - 12 of 25

yea....what an assassin in that series. LOL......again. when someone plays the way they normally do.....you can't credit the defense. it does not make sense.

jordan shot 7% less than his career average in the finals. kobe shot nearly his identical percentage. sorry.......doesn't compute.

So, it's ACTUALLY Jordan who underachieved? :roll: :roll: :roll:

[sosolid4u09]

look at every year in the playoff compared to the finals. i will drop off tremendously. kobe really struggles in the finals compared to his overall play in the playoffs. in 08 kobe was lighting teams up as well and then struggled in the finals. same thing last year with orlando. same thing in 04. they are averages for a reason. he's played in the finals 7 times now....i think the sample size is big enough.

again.....please answer...what is more impressive?

holding kobe/gasol to essentially their averages?
or
holding jordan/pippen well below their averages?

holding the best offense in the league well below their averages?
or
holding a good but not great offense at their averages?

????????????????????????????????????????????


omg how the hell were KOBE AND GASOL held to their damm averages?!?!?!?
GASOL AVERAGED 54% in the PLAYOFFS, despite shooting 48% in the finals... so CLEARLY his shooting % dropped in the finals! i suppose he jacked up stupid shots all night aswel?
Kobe averaged 50% in the playoffs.... shot 41% in the finals. thats clearly BELOW his AVERAGE. so seriously why do you keep saying the celtics held gasol and kobe to their average when they CLEARLY CLEARLY CLEARLY held them WAY below!?!?!?

[ginobli2311]

trust me haters gnna hate. No way to make them see the light lol.

I love how they use certain stats which suit their cause,,, but ignore others which disprove them.

You show them stats for reg season defensive ratings..... they say oh no every team raises their defense during the playoffs.
They say how the lakers offense was flawed through the reg season....but then forget that the lakers offense was MUCH better in the playoffs.

Kobe drops 9% in shooting from playoffs to finals, its coz kobe is suddenly taking bad shots....
MJ shoots below his average in the finals.... its coz the sonics defense was astonishingly good.

I mean seriously wtf can you do about that :lol :lol :lol
'

hey moron. the lakers struggled against the thunder and played 10 good games against two great matchups against poor defensive teams. i'll take the other 95 games as better evidence than playing well against weak ass defensive teams like the jazz/suns.

haters gonna hate? LOL....the same response every time you people get owned.

so answer me this. who was better offensively....the bulls or the lakers?

which tandem is better....jordan/pippen or kobe/gasol?

please answer....it will be fun.

[ginobli2311]

omg how the hell were KOBE AND GASOL held to their damm averages?!?!?!?
GASOL AVERAGED 54% in the PLAYOFFS, despite shooting 48% in the finals... so CLEARLY his shooting % dropped in the finals! i suppose he jacked up stupid shots all night aswel?
Kobe averaged 50% in the playoffs.... shot 41% in the finals. thats clearly BELOW his AVERAGE. so seriously why do you keep saying the celtics held gasol and kobe to their average when they CLEARLY CLEARLY CLEARLY held them WAY below!?!?!?

false.....you can say the celtics forced gasol to play worse than normal. not true with kobe. just look at the thunder series. you can't just pick 10 games against bad teams and use them as the standard. we are using kobe's history in the finals and his history against good defenses. or are you going to try and say that the pacers, nets, sixers, magic, thunder are all all time great defenses.

****ing morons.

[sosolid4u09]

'

hey moron. the lakers struggled against the thunder and played 10 good games against two great matchups against poor defensive teams. i'll take the other 95 games as better evidence than playing well against weak ass defensive teams like the jazz/suns.

haters gonna hate? LOL....the same response every time you people get owned.

so answer me this. who was better offensively....the bulls or the lakers?

which tandem is better....jordan/pippen or kobe/gasol?

please answer....it will be fun.

lol. so explain why the celtics had a better defensive rating than 5/6 teams mj played in the finals... while resting their KEY players for the last 54 games of the season going 27/27?!?!? Surely in this case the regular season is a better indicator than just 6 games against mj in the finals?

[sosolid4u09]

Boston's Defense in Perspective
To see the effects of Boston's defense, have a look at Pau Gasol, whom some advocated as the "real MVP" of this series. He shot .536 in the regular season and .565 in the playoffs before the Finals, but only .478 against Boston. That's a drop of .058 compared to the regular season, and .087 compared to the rest of the playoffs.

How about LeBron James? He shot .503 from the field in the regular season, and .567 in the playoffs prior to meeting Boston. Against the Celtics, however, he shot only .447. That's a .056 drop compared to the regular season, and a .120 drop compared to the rest of the playoffs.

Kobe Bryant shot .456 from the field in the regular season, and .483 in the playoffs prior to meeting Boston. Against the Celtics, he shot .405. Viewed alongside James and Gasol, Kobe's .051 drop in field goal percentage compared to the regular season, and .078 compared to the rest of the playoffs, actually seems quite normal. In fact, both Pau and LeBron suffered larger overall drops in shooting efficiency against the Celtics than did Kobe.

Again, from the article

[chopchop20]

'

hey moron. the lakers struggled against the thunder and played 10 good games against two great matchups against poor defensive teams. i'll take the other 95 games as better evidence than playing well against weak ass defensive teams like the jazz/suns.

haters gonna hate? LOL....the same response every time you people get owned.

so answer me this. who was better offensively....the bulls or the lakers?

which tandem is better....jordan/pippen or kobe/gasol?

please answer....it will be fun.

As far as I know, basketball is still 5 on 5 :confusedshrug: So how does a duo equate to having a better overall offense? Kobe and Shaq set a record as the highest scoring tandem in NBA Playoff History in one of the years during the 3-peat... doesn't make them a better overall offense than the Showtime Lakers. But I suppose that they would trump Pippen and Jordan :oldlol:

[ginobli2311]

lol. so explain why the celtics had a better defensive rating than 5/6 teams mj played in the finals... while resting their KEY players for the last 54 games of the season going 27/27?!?!? Surely in this case the regular season is a better indicator than just 6 games against mj in the finals?

we are comparing the 2010 celtics to the 96 sonics. what do the other teams jordan and kobe faced have anything to do with this debate?

i just don't get it.

FACTS:
1. the bulls were much better offensively than the lakers
2. jordan is a much better performer in the playoffs and especially in the finals than kboe
3. jordan/pippen is a better tandem than kobe/gasol
4. gary payton would be the best defensive player out of the sonics/celtics
5. the sonics forced jordan/pippen far below their normal numbers in the finals
6. the celtics held kobe to his averages and forced gasol to play slightly worse than normal
7. the sonics had a better defensive rating throughout the year
8. wade shredded the celtics defense with maybe 10% of the help kobe had

[ginobli2311]

Boston's Defense in Perspective
To see the effects of Boston's defense, have a look at Pau Gasol, whom some advocated as the "real MVP" of this series. He shot .536 in the regular season and .565 in the playoffs before the Finals, but only .478 against Boston. That's a drop of .058 compared to the regular season, and .087 compared to the rest of the playoffs.

How about LeBron James? He shot .503 from the field in the regular season, and .567 in the playoffs prior to meeting Boston. Against the Celtics, however, he shot only .447. That's a .056 drop compared to the regular season, and a .120 drop compared to the rest of the playoffs.

Kobe Bryant shot .456 from the field in the regular season, and .483 in the playoffs prior to meeting Boston. Against the Celtics, he shot .405. Viewed alongside James and Gasol, Kobe's .051 drop in field goal percentage compared to the regular season, and .078 compared to the rest of the playoffs, actually seems quite normal. In fact, both Pau and LeBron suffered larger overall drops in shooting efficiency against the Celtics than did Kobe.

Again, from the article

you conveniently leave off wade. you fail to mention that lebron would have struggled against the other good defenses as well. that is what you are missing...you are trying to credit boston for being an all time great defense....its not true.

just look at what the thunder did to the kobe/lakers in that series. any good defense is going to slow down lebron when he has to literally play 1 on 5 its so bad at times.

also.....your sample size in the playoffs is way too small to use those numbers. sorry.......you can't win this debate....i'm out

[indiefan24]

I think the team defenses were very similar. but gary payton was literally ten times the defender that ray allen or tony allen is. people either forget or are too young to know the kind of defender payton was. he's one of the 10 to 15 best perimeter defenders of all time. he was in the heart of his prime in 96 and was a tough matchup for jordan.

i have the series on dvd. trust me....jordan played well to shoot 42%. also....the rest of the bulls were awful for most of that series....jordan had to take a lot of forced shots that he normally wouldn't have taken.

basically the exact opposite of kobe. kobe had a matchup he should have been able to exploit...but he couldn't. kobe also should have deferred to his teammates because they were playing better than him. jordan had a brutal matchup and his teammates were really struggling so it forced him to do more.

i can't remember....but i think jordan was more efficient from the field than kobe was as well.



not saying kobe didn't play bad, but his team was non-existent at times as well. usually when kobe played well (gms 1, 3 and 6) his teammates played great--exception being game 5. game 7 was the one game where kobe played awful, but his team was able to pull through for the win.


aww no answer ginobili?

[ginobli2311]

aww no answer ginobili?

what is the question?

[chopchop20]

false.....you can say the celtics forced gasol to play worse than normal. not true with kobe. just look at the thunder series. you can't just pick 10 games against bad teams and use them as the standard. we are using kobe's history in the finals and his history against good defenses. or are you going to try and say that the pacers, nets, sixers, magic, thunder are all all time great defenses.

****ing morons.

You can't just ELIMINATE games to skew data in order to support your flawed logic. This isn't Cleveland buddy, you don't automatically get anointed to the Finals. You have to win all the Playoff series

The games against Utah and Phoenix count just as much as the ones against OKC & Boston

[ginobli2311]

You can't just ELIMINATE games to skew data in order to support your flawed logic. This isn't Cleveland buddy, you don't automatically get anointed to the Finals. You have to win all the Playoff series

The games against Utah and Phoenix count just as much as the ones against OKC & Boston

so you think using games against poor defenses rather than games against good defenses is just as apt?

how? of course kobe's numbers go up and down based on the defenses he plays.

again...nobody is saying that the celtics don't play very good defense. but don't pretend like kobe normally plays like he did against the suns/jazz. that is what is called an anomaly statistically. kobe historically shoots 45% in the playoffs and historically shoots around 40% in the finals and around 40% against the the top 10 defenses in the league.

those numbers are much better to use....not peaks.

[ginobli2311]

everyone was saying the same thing about the pistons in 04......

then a 2nd/3rd year wade shredded them the next 2 years. sorry....something does not compute.

sure these teams play good defense....but why does kobe play worse than guys like wade/lebron when he plays good defenses. why does kobe struggle so much historically in the finals?

you can't just ignore that evidence. that is why the sonics were a better defenses. they had better numbers and they did a better job against a much more talented and overall offense.

how can you not understand that?

[chopchop20]

basically the exact opposite of kobe. kobe had a matchup he should have been able to exploit...but he couldn't. kobe also should have deferred to his teammates because they were playing better than him. jordan had a brutal matchup and his teammates were really struggling so it forced him to do more.

aww no answer ginobili?

So apparently Jordan suffers from the LeBron complex -- no good, worthless teammates forcing him to be a super hero. Guess that explains his 7% decrease in FG% in career Finals.

kobe had a matchup he should have been able to exploit...but he couldn't. kobe also should have deferred to his teammates because they were playing better than him.

Trying to understand your circular logic here... First you said Kobe had a matchup that he should have exploited. Then you come back and say he should have passed to his teammates :confusedshrug: Which one is it -- shoot or pass? Kobe's very good but not even he can do both at the same time :roll:

[ginobli2311]

So apparently Jordan suffers from the LeBron complex -- no good, worthless teammates forcing him to be a super hero. Guess that explains his 7% decrease in FG% in career Finals.

kobe had a matchup he should have been able to exploit...but he couldn't. kobe also should have deferred to his teammates because they were playing better than him.

Trying to understand your circular logic here... First you said Kobe had a matchup that he should have exploited. Then you come back and say he should have passed to his teammates :confusedshrug: Which one is it -- shoot or pass? Kobe's very good but not even he can do both at the same time :roll:

nobody is claiming jordan didn't have good teammates. its simply that jordan's teammates were struggling far more than kobe's were. thats a fact dude....a simple fact.

now. kobe should have done both. by exploited i mean he should have been decisive with the ball and attacked and created more for his teammates. or he should have attacked and got to the line or the rim. he did neither....he settled for terrible jump shots outside the offense....another FACT. but that is beside the point. this debate is about the celtics vs the sonics.

please answer:
better offense...bulls or lakers?
harder to stop in the finals.....jordan or kobe?
harder to stop in the finals.....pippen or gasol?

[chopchop20]

so you think using games against poor defenses rather than games against good defenses is just as apt?

how? of course kobe's numbers go up and down based on the defenses he plays.

again...nobody is saying that the celtics don't play very good defense. but don't pretend like kobe normally plays like he did against the suns/jazz. that is what is called an anomaly statistically. kobe historically shoots 45% in the playoffs and historically shoots around 40% in the finals and around 40% against the the top 10 defenses in the league.

those numbers are much better to use....not peaks.

All the games count, so all the stats count. why is that so hard for you to understand :confusedshrug:

[chopchop20]

nobody is claiming jordan didn't have good teammates. its simply that jordan's teammates were struggling far more than kobe's were. thats a fact dude....a simple fact.

now. kobe should have done both. by exploited i mean he should have been decisive with the ball and attacked and created more for his teammates. but that is beside the point. this debate is about the celtics vs the sonics.

please answer:
better offense...bulls or lakers?
harder to stop in the finals.....jordan or kobe?
harder to stop in the finals.....pippen or gasol?

Besides the point because you make no sense at all...

better offense...bulls or lakers?
Lakers were more balanced, much better interior scoring + the offensive rebounds give them more possessions

harder to stop in the finals.....jordan or kobe?
Overall, MJ -- he never lost and has better numbers

harder to stop in the finals.....pippen or gasol?
Without question, it's Pau

[ginobli2311]

All the games count, so all the stats count. why is that so hard for you to understand :confusedshrug:

i agree. all games should count. thats obvious. my point is that we are debating something specific. and its far better to use numbers that are applicable to the debate. for example....if you were going to do a scouting report on kobe in the nba finals. would you use his numbers from the nba finals or would you use his numbers from other playoff series? its simple logic dude.

but i'm not continuing until you answer:

please answer:
better offense...bulls or lakers?
harder to stop in the finals.....jordan or kobe?
harder to stop in the finals.....pippen or gasol?

[ginobli2311]

Besides the point because you make no sense at all...

better offense...bulls or lakers?
Lakers were more balanced, much better interior scoring + the offensive rebounds give them more possessions

harder to stop in the finals.....jordan or kobe?
Overall, MJ -- he never lost and has better numbers

harder to stop in the finals.....pippen or gasol?
Without question, it's Pau

and with that i'm out. impossible to debate with someone unwilling to admit the bulls had a far superior offense. enjoy....what a ****ing waste of time.

[sosolid4u09]

and with that i'm out. impossible to debate with someone unwilling to admit the bulls had a far superior offense. enjoy....what a ****ing waste of time.

lol you ask the guy a question.... he answers it... and coz its not the answer you want your off.......

[chopchop20]

lol you ask the guy a question.... he answers it... and coz its not the answer you want your off.......

LOL... exactly, acting like little kid. Oh well, I was just killing time, humoring myself with his idiotic posts :lol

[sosolid4u09]

LOL... exactly, acting like little kid. Oh well, I was just killing time, humoring myself with his idiotic posts :lol

lol same here

[cotdt]

This just shows how Kobe Bryant is better than Michael Jordan, who never had to face defense like Boston's.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

obviously, the Celtic 2010 defense was better.
But don't forget, per league rules, no one was actually allowed to defend MJ.

[chopchop20]

obviously, the Celtic 2010 defense was better.
But don't forget, per league rules, no one was actually allowed to defend MJ.

Anybody who watched the video would agree. Just the amount of space between him and the defender alone shows that they're not close to Boston. Plus, how many double teams, even triple teams did he split -- not gonna happen against Boston

[BigBalla44]

So just bc the 2010 Celtics is a better defensive team than 96 Sonics means Kobe > MJ. Just stop it already. Youre a joke. MJ faced greater defensive teams in a more physical era.

[chopchop20]

So just bc the 2010 Celtics is a better defensive team than 96 Sonics means Kobe > MJ. Just stop it already. Youre a joke. MJ faced greater defensive teams in a more physical era.

But a lot of people here have argued that the 1996 Sonics were the best team that Jordan faced in the Finals.

This has nothing to do with Kobe > MJ nonsense...

[BigBalla44]

But a lot of people here have argued that the 1996 Sonics were the best team that Jordan faced in the Finals.

This has nothing to do with Kobe > MJ nonsense...

I'm referring to those jokes with the Laker fanboy avatars who said so.

I will say the 2010 Celtics are better defensively than the 96 sonics. To give the Sonics some credit, GP is greater defensively than any perimeter player on the 2008 and 2010 celtics. I personally believe the best teams MJ beat in the playoffs were in the Eastern conference. Still aint no shame in that and it doesnt takeaway from the fact that MJ is better than any perimeter player in the history of the game.

[BlueandGold]

I think the team defenses were very similar. but gary payton was literally ten times the defender that ray allen or tony allen is. people either forget or are too young to know the kind of defender payton was. he's one of the 10 to 15 best perimeter defenders of all time. he was in the heart of his prime in 96 and was a tough matchup for jordan.

i have the series on dvd. trust me....jordan played well to shoot 42%. also....the rest of the bulls were awful for most of that series....jordan had to take a lot of forced shots that he normally wouldn't have taken.

basically the exact opposite of kobe. kobe had a matchup he should have been able to exploit...but he couldn't. kobe also should have deferred to his teammates because they were playing better than him. jordan had a brutal matchup and his teammates were really struggling so it forced him to do more.

i can't remember....but i think jordan was more efficient from the field than kobe was as well.

rofl that sounds exactly like Kobe's 2010 team in the Finals.

[chopchop20]

I'm referring to those jokes with the Laker fanboy avatars who said so.

I will say the 2010 Celtics are better defensively than the 96 sonics. To give the Sonics some credit, GP is greater defensively than any perimeter player on the 2008 and 2010 celtics. I personally believe the best teams MJ beat in the playoffs were in the Eastern conference. Still aint no shame in that and it doesnt takeaway from the fact that MJ is better than any perimeter player in the history of the game.

The guy never lost in the Finals -- that speaks louder than words. We'll see how history plays out with some of the current players though

[chopchop20]

I'm referring to those jokes with the Laker fanboy avatars who said so.

I will say the 2010 Celtics are better defensively than the 96 sonics. To give the Sonics some credit, GP is greater defensively than any perimeter player on the 2008 and 2010 celtics. I personally believe the best teams MJ beat in the playoffs were in the Eastern conference. Still aint no shame in that and it doesnt takeaway from the fact that MJ is better than any perimeter player in the history of the game.

Don't sleep on Tony Allen... more size and strength than GP. But GP did have as good a hands as I've seen along with Artest

[Bladers]

and with that i'm out. impossible to debate with someone unwilling to admit the bulls had a far superior offense. enjoy....what a ****ing waste of time.


http://rpulvino.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/crying-285x300.jpg

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

first of all 2008 Celtics defense is way better than the 2010. they were more athletic especialluy KG.

Gary Payton is better defender than anyone on the Celtics by far.

Also to the person who said the Bulls 2nd 3 peat wasn't convincing is a moron. Just because MJ wasnt at his ultimate on the court peak like their run in 91-93. The 96-98 Bulls were just as good. They won 72, 69,62 games those runs.

[knightfall88]

So, are you saying that Ray Allen's defense is better than Garry Payton?

Not at all but I believe that as a team Boston is amazing and better than Payton's team.

[amfirst]

I'm referring to those jokes with the Laker fanboy avatars who said so.

I will say the 2010 Celtics are better defensively than the 96 sonics. To give the Sonics some credit, GP is greater defensively than any perimeter player on the 2008 and 2010 celtics. I personally believe the best teams MJ beat in the playoffs were in the Eastern conference. Still aint no shame in that and it doesnt takeaway from the fact that MJ is better than any perimeter player in the history of the game.

Nope, Celtics defense is far superior, look at how much space MJ has when he shoots a jump shot or operates. It would almost be a miracle if Kobe got that much space and clean look at the rim.

[amfirst]

In overall, Jordan faced much tougher defense than Kobe has been facing, I think this has been proved a lot of times, in this thread, I am talking about a very specific defense match up:
1996 Supersonics vs 2010 Celtics

Maybe the 2010 Celtics' defense is indeed better than the 1996's, maybe not, we're here to discuss it, not to hate Jordan or hate Kobe.

Regarding to what you said that "Kobe consistently had players hand check him."... I could be wrong, but I don't remember somebody consistently hand-checking Kobe in the 2010 finals.

U can clearly see the Allens reaching in every time Kobe has the ball or using their hands to check Kobe. When he attacks the rim, they would shove his shoulders to slow him down and allow themselves to get into position.

Show me a video of MJ getting hand check that Kobe doesn't get too. Infact, Kobe played with my physicality than MJ in the video. Look at how much space MJ was able to operate. He had a clean look at the rim on most all of his jumpshot. Now, look at how little space Kobe got to operate and how close the defender was on Kobe for his jumpshot, so close that they made contact with his hands after the release.

[Mr. Jabbar]

People have serious hate issues against kobe and the Lakers, i mean real serious.

Boston 2010 & 2008 defense is like nothing the league has ever seen for the past two decades. That Sonic team D WAS NOWHERE NEAR Boston. It had a great individual defender at GP, granted, but as a team, BOSTON is(was?) so much better.

[momo]

They are both great defenses and GP was just out of his mind then, but they are soooooo different they are tough to even compare.

Super Sonics trapped and rotated all the time. They would press off missed shots, gamble and just... crazy stuff. Trap a guy at the top of the arch just for the hell of it. What they got out of it in terms of opponents FG% will never tell the story, because they gave up dunks and layups. But they also scored a lot of points off of it.

Bostons D is much more a containment D. Especially in 08. Probably easier to compare them to the 90's Knickerbockers than the 90s Sonics in all honesty.

[OldSchoolBBall]

This thread further exemplifies why Kobe fans are the lowest form of life on basketball forums across the internet.

[alexandreben]

U can clearly see the Allens reaching in every time Kobe has the ball or using their hands to check Kobe. When he attacks the rim, they would shove his shoulders to slow him down and allow themselves to get into position.

Show me a video of MJ getting hand check that Kobe doesn't get too. Infact, Kobe played with my physicality than MJ in the video. Look at how much space MJ was able to operate. He had a clean look at the rim on most all of his jumpshot. Now, look at how little space Kobe got to operate and how close the defender was on Kobe for his jumpshot, so close that they made contact with his hands after the release.
You call that kinda so called "hand check" a chand-checking?! And Kobe faced more physical defense than Jordan?! wow, I'm not here to judge, but... whatever...

Regarding to space, that's interesting, different offensive style, Kobe choose to shoot some tough shots, Jordan/Wade choose to drive to the paint, Kobe doesn't have the speed that he had when he was young, nor the speed as Jordan or Wade, not to mention Spud Webb, defenders have to give a certain space to that kind of offensive players, remember how they guard Spud Webb? they leave hell out of away from him, is that mean that's bad defense with that huge space? hell no! the space is for better guarding him to drive to the lane..

[alexandreben]

This thread further exemplifies why Kobe fans are the lowest form of life on basketball forums across the internet.
wow... that's a very strong comment, dude, don't be so agressive

[chopchop20]

You call that kinda so called "hand check" a chand-checking?! And Kobe faced more physical defense than Jordan?! wow, I'm not here to judge, but... whatever...

Regarding to space, that's interesting, different offensive style, Kobe choose to shoot some tough shots, Jordan/Wade choose to drive to the paint, Kobe doesn't have the speed that he had when he was young, nor the speed as Jordan or Wade, not to mention Spud Webb, defenders have to give a certain space to that kind of offensive players, remember how they guard Spud Webb? they leave hell out of away from him, is that mean that's bad defense with that huge space? hell no! the space is for better guarding him to drive to the lane..

But still though, if you're playing help defense, you don't allow that much space to the offensive player. When I saw that on the video, I knew right away that the Sonics weren't as Celtics. What kind of defense allows Jordan to get isolated on Sam Perkins or Detlef?

[ginobli2311]

But still though, if you're playing help defense, you don't allow that much space to the offensive player. When I saw that on the video, I knew right away that the Sonics weren't as Celtics. What kind of defense allows Jordan to get isolated on Sam Perkins or Detlef?

your premise is totally flawed because you are equating jordan to kobe. you are pretending that a 34 year old ray allen could take away jordan's space. he could not......in fact....he could not come close. guys like payton and dumars could sometimes take away jordan's space.

the fact is that if you pressed up on jordan anytime in his career he would blow right by you with or without the handchecking and far more pysical defense. if you press up on kobe and play him physical.....he has never had the ability to consistently blow by people and get to the rim.

also....even if kobe was blowing by his man. he's not a very willing passer and he does not finish at the rim like wade/lebron/jordan and so on.

therefore.....like we have been saying the entire time. kobe made the celtics look a lot better than they actually are on defense.

also....claiming that the 10 lakers were better offensively than the 96 bulls is beyond absurd. flat out a joke. you can't just come on here and say things like when every single bit of evidence favors the bulls.

i also find it funny that now gasol is better than pippen offensively because it helps your argument. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

[chopchop20]

your premise is totally flawed because you are equating jordan to kobe. you are pretending that a 34 year old ray allen could take away jordan's space. he could not......in fact....he could not come close. guys like payton and dumars could sometimes take away jordan's space.

the fact is that if you pressed up on jordan anytime in his career he would blow right by you with or without the handchecking and far more pysical defense. if you press up on kobe and play him physical.....he has never had the ability to consistently blow by people and get to the rim.

also....even if kobe was blowing by his man. he's not a very willing passer and he does not finish at the rim like wade/lebron/jordan and so on.

therefore.....like we have been saying the entire time. kobe made the celtics look a lot better than they actually are on defense.

also....claiming that the 10 lakers were better offensively than the 96 bulls is beyond absurd. flat out a joke. you can't just come on here and say things like when every single bit of evidence favors the bulls.

i also find it funny that now gasol is better than pippen offensively because it helps your argument. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

HAHA... hero worship.... what next, Jordan could walk on water? 34 yr old Ray Allen looks a lot better than the defense being played in that clip. Not too mention that Tony Allen has more strenght and quickness than the undersized Hersey Hawkins, and certainly would not get thrown around as easily.

Your stupidity continues to a astonish me.... a perimeter guy averaging 17 pts on 39 FG% is better than a big man averaging 20 pts. on 54 FG%? Not the mention the fact that the BIG gets double team and creates shots for perimeter guys (Fisher Game 7)

You are beyond ridiculous....

[ginobli2311]

HAHA... hero worship.... what next, Jordan could walk on water? 34 yr old Ray Allen looks a lot better than the defense being played in that clip. Not too mention that Tony Allen has more strenght and quickness than the undersized Hersey Hawkins, and certainly would not get thrown around as easily.

Your stupidity continues to a astonish me.... a perimeter guy averaging 17 pts on 39 FG% is better than a big man averaging 20 pts. on 54 FG%? Not the mention the fact that the BIG gets double team and creates shots for perimeter guys (Fisher Game 7)

You are beyond ridiculous....

first and foremost. when did i ever say pippen was better offensively than gasol? i have been saying gasol is a superior offensive player and rebounder on here for weeks. that was the point of the question.....to finally make you put up or shut up about the gasol bashing that goes on here all the time. i totally agree with your take on gasol vs pippen. totally agree.

hero worship? jordan in 96 was a far great player than kobe is currently. fact. stop trying to pretend like ray allen is a defensive stopper. and stop ****ing pretending like you could press up on jordan and take away his space one on one. nobody could ever do that. so why would ray allen or tony allen be able to do something that a prime dumars and payton could not do?

beyond absurd. if ray allen/tony allen and the celtics were so geat they would not have gotten torched by wade. why did wade torch them? because he can blow by one on one defense at will and get to the rim or set up his teammates. why could lebron not do that as well as wade? because lebron was struggling with his shot. therefore the celtics laid off him and forced him to shoot....and he wasn't making enough for them to change. its that simple. for kobe....they pressed up on him and tried to force him to drive. ....he could not do it consistently and even when he did get by ray allen....he was making the wrong decisions most of the time.

sorry.....payton in his prime is literally ten times the defender ray allen has ever been and much much better than tony allen as well. and it was the one on one defense of ray and tony that actually gave kobe all the trouble because he could not get by them one on one. end of story.

[OldSchoolBBall]

The FACT is that Kobe makes the game harder than it needs to be either on purpose, by way of stupidity, or because he's really just not as good as people think he is. There's one play that sticks out in my mind from the 2010 Finals:

Ray Allen is defending Kobe on the wing, past the 3-point line. Dude is pressed all up on Kobe. It's a clear isolation, and there is no one shading, literally no one within 20 feet of Kobe besides Ray, baseline wide open. Allen is bodying up on Kobe, playing him tight. Instead of just blowing by Ray, or spinning off his pressure and getting by him, or executing one COMMITTED foot fake and then blowing by him in the other direction, Kobe proceeded to execute a panoply of feints and fakes...and never moved from the spot. He then, after having had this isolation for literally 5-7 seconds, ends up taking a SIDEWAYS LEANING 3 POINTER with Allen on his hip that missed the mark, leaving Kobe complaining for a foul.

It was the most inexplicably DUMB basketball I've ever seen from a superstar, and I wish to God that I had video of it. Pretty sure it was game 7. Ray Allen tries that with Jordan and he's left holding his jock at the 3 point line as MJ dunks on KG and gets the And-1. Fact. Kobe makes the game harder than it needs to be, and a lot of that is due to his lower basketball IQ than guys like MJ/Magic/Bird. This many times makes the defense look better than it is, because he doesn't react quickly enough to dictate the game to the defense -- he reacts more slowly, and hence lets the defense dictate the terms and get set in exactly the way they want to.

[ginobli2311]

do you understand how bad ray allen would like on defense if he tried to body up to jordan on the perimeter 22 feet from the basket? are you serious? the defense "looks worse" on the video because they had to play jordan that way.

look at the defense the celtics played on lebron.....they laid off him much much more than kobe. is that worse defense? of course not. its all about the player.....jordan/wade are the two most dynamic offensive perimeter forces ever.....that is why they have so much more success than lebron/kobe against great/tough defenses. you follow?

[ginobli2311]

The FACT is that Kobe makes the game harder than it needs to be either on purpose, by way of stupidity, or because he's really just not as good as people think he is. There's one play that sticks out in my mind from the 2010 Finals:

Ray Allen is defending Kobe on the wing, past the 3-point line. Dude is pressed all up on Kobe. It's a clear isolation, and there is no one shading, literally no one within 20 feet of Kobe besides Ray, baseline wide open. Allen is bodying up on Kobe, playing him tight. Instead of just blowing by Ray, or spinning off his pressure and getting by him, or executing one COMMITTED foot fake and then blowing by him in the other direction, Kobe proceeded to execute a panoply of feints and fakes...and never moved from the spot. He then, after having had this isolation for literally 5-7 seconds, ends up taking a SIDEWAYS LEANING 3 POINTER with Allen on his hip that missed the mark, leaving Kobe complaining for a foul.

It was the most inexplicably DUMB basketball I've ever seen from a superstar, and I wish to God that I had video of it. Pretty sure it was game 7. Ray Allen tries that with Jordan and he's left holding his jock at the 3 point line as MJ dunks on KG and gets the And-1. Fact. Kobe makes the game harder than it needs to be, and a lot of that is due to his lower basketball IQ than guys like MJ/Magic/Bird. This many times makes the defense look better than it is, because he doesn't react quickly enough to dictate the game to the defense -- he reacts more slowly, and hence lets the defense dictate the terms and get set in exactly the way they want to.


ding ding ding....we have a winner.

[chopchop20]

do you understand how bad ray allen would like on defense if he tried to body up to jordan on the perimeter 22 feet from the basket? are you serious? the defense "looks worse" on the video because they had to play jordan that way.

look at the defense the celtics played on lebron.....they laid off him much much more than kobe. is that worse defense? of course not. its all about the player.....jordan/wade are the two most dynamic offensive perimeter forces ever.....that is why they have so much more success than lebron/kobe against great/tough defenses. you follow?

Dude they're not even contesting the catch on Jordan in many instances on that video. MJ is coming off screens with 10 feet of separation - that's not good or smart defense. Boston does not play that way. And the most glaring weakness with the Sonics was how slow their rotations were and total lack of recognition. Leaving MJ isolated against Perkins is just plain stupid. You have to rotate back or send a quick trap to get the ball out of his hands.

And their defense in the paint was atrocious... weakly contested shots. Nobody even laying a hand on MJ in many instances, not even bodying him. No way does Garnett or Perkins play defense that softly.

[chopchop20]

The FACT is that Kobe makes the game harder than it needs to be either on purpose, by way of stupidity, or because he's really just not as good as people think he is. There's one play that sticks out in my mind from the 2010 Finals:

Ray Allen is defending Kobe on the wing, past the 3-point line. Dude is pressed all up on Kobe. It's a clear isolation, and there is no one shading, literally no one within 20 feet of Kobe besides Ray, baseline wide open. Allen is bodying up on Kobe, playing him tight. Instead of just blowing by Ray, or spinning off his pressure and getting by him, or executing one COMMITTED foot fake and then blowing by him in the other direction, Kobe proceeded to execute a panoply of feints and fakes...and never moved from the spot. He then, after having had this isolation for literally 5-7 seconds, ends up taking a SIDEWAYS LEANING 3 POINTER with Allen on his hip that missed the mark, leaving Kobe complaining for a foul.

It was the most inexplicably DUMB basketball I've ever seen from a superstar, and I wish to God that I had video of it. Pretty sure it was game 7. Ray Allen tries that with Jordan and he's left holding his jock at the 3 point line as MJ dunks on KG and gets the And-1. Fact. Kobe makes the game harder than it needs to be, and a lot of that is due to his lower basketball IQ than guys like MJ/Magic/Bird. This many times makes the defense look better than it is, because he doesn't react quickly enough to dictate the game to the defense -- he reacts more slowly, and hence lets the defense dictate the terms and get set in exactly the way they want to.


1 play :confusedshrug:

You act as if Kobe gets a red carpet to the rim after beating his man. Boston is much better than that. I don't understand why it's a problem for a guy to recognize the defense, realize where the help is going to come from is a bad thing?

[ginobli2311]

Dude they're not even contesting the catch on Jordan in many instances on that video. MJ is coming off screens with 10 feet of separation - that's not good or smart defense. Boston does not play that way. And the most glaring weakness with the Sonics was how slow their rotations were and total lack of recognition. Leaving MJ isolated against Perkins is just plain stupid. You have to rotate back or send a quick trap to get the ball out of his hands.

And their defense in the paint was atrocious... weakly contested shots. Nobody even laying a hand on MJ in many instances, not even bodying him. No way does Garnett or Perkins play defense that softly.

so you don't think the sonics play good defense. so why did the bulls (possibly the greatest team ever....and by far the best offensive force in the league) and jordan/pippen struggle so much against them? they just played bad? it wasn't the defense? really? a ten minute video clip trumps all the hard data and evidence?

come on man.......look at how the celtics played lebron....they were laying off him all series. i ask...is that terrible defense or smart defense? if you press up on lebron he will get your entire team in foul trouble, get to the rim, or get wide open threes for his shooters. the same thing for jordan and wade. with kobe....he's not going to do that. so what you think is better defense is actually just different defense.

why can't you grasp this concept. if you press up on wade/jordan in the halfcourt at the three point line.....you are toast. they are getting into the paint and finishing with contact at will or setting up their teammates. kobe can't do that. if he could then ray alllen would not have been bodying him up that far from the basket.

again. your premise is totally flawed because you are saying jordan/wade = kobe. and that could not be more off.

[imdaman99]

so true. if kobe had played the right way the entire series (like he did in game 6)....the lakers would have torched the celtics. kobe just played right into their hands in every game but game 6.

hero complex.....damn you nailed it.
I don't understand, who else was dominating on offense for the Lakers in game 7? Who did Kobe have to feed the ball to, to make sure the Lakers scored? Ron Artest, I'm sorry he's not a good enough offensive player that you can depend on the whole game. Kobe missed plenty of shots he usually makes, but that was probably because he was worn down after 6 grueling games. Did Pau Gasol have some sort of great shooting % game? Bynum? Of course I agree with you for the most part that when Kobe is shooting less than 20 times the Lakers usually kill, but that was not going to happen in Game 7.

[sosolid4u09]

so you don't think the sonics play good defense. so why did the bulls (possibly the greatest team ever....and by far the best offensive force in the league) and jordan/pippen struggle so much against them? they just played bad? it wasn't the defense? really? a ten minute video clip trumps all the hard data and evidence?

come on man.......look at how the celtics played lebron....they were laying off him all series. i ask...is that terrible defense or smart defense? if you press up on lebron he will get your entire team in foul trouble, get to the rim, or get wide open threes for his shooters. the same thing for jordan and wade. with kobe....he's not going to do that. so what you think is better defense is actually just different defense.

why can't you grasp this concept. if you press up on wade/jordan in the halfcourt at the three point line.....you are toast. they are getting into the paint and finishing with contact at will or setting up their teammates. kobe can't do that. if he could then ray alllen would not have been bodying him up that far from the basket.

again. your premise is totally flawed because you are saying jordan/wade = kobe. and that could not be more off.


o yea i forgot. wade is ten times better than kobe apparently :lol

[chopchop20]

so you don't think the sonics play good defense. so why did the bulls (possibly the greatest team ever....and by far the best offensive force in the league) and jordan/pippen struggle so much against them? they just played bad? it wasn't the defense? really? a ten minute video clip trumps all the hard data and evidence?

come on man.......look at how the celtics played lebron....they were laying off him all series. i ask...is that terrible defense or smart defense? if you press up on lebron he will get your entire team in foul trouble, get to the rim, or get wide open threes for his shooters. the same thing for jordan and wade. with kobe....he's not going to do that. so what you think is better defense is actually just different defense.

why can't you grasp this concept. if you press up on wade/jordan in the halfcourt at the three point line.....you are toast. they are getting into the paint and finishing with contact at will or setting up their teammates. kobe can't do that. if he could then ray alllen would not have been bodying him up that far from the basket.

again. your premise is totally flawed because you are saying jordan/wade = kobe. and that could not be more off.

Again you talk in circles.... earlier you said that LeBron, like Kobe could not beat 1 on 1 defenders. Now you're saying that Boston laid off of him -- doesn't make any sense.

And again allowing Mike Jordan to come off a screen with 10 feet of separation is dumb defense. At the very least, the off ball defender has to pop out and hold Jordan until his man gets there. Boston does this all the time.

BTW... did u give up on trying to explain how Pip is a better offensive player than Gasol? :roll:

[ginobli2311]

I don't understand, who else was dominating on offense for the Lakers in game 7? Who did Kobe have to feed the ball to, to make sure the Lakers scored? Ron Artest, I'm sorry he's not a good enough offensive player that you can depend on the whole game. Kobe missed plenty of shots he usually makes, but that was probably because he was worn down after 6 grueling games. Did Pau Gasol have some sort of great shooting % game? Bynum? Of course I agree with you for the most part that when Kobe is shooting less than 20 times the Lakers usually kill, but that was not going to happen in Game 7.

what you seem to be missing is that the other laker players would have played much better if kobe had played within the offense more and taken less bad shots. i'm not saying that everyone but kobe was on fire or something.....but the lakers efficiency was > kobe's efficiency. combine this with kobe's domination of the ball and terrible shot selection and i don't think its much of a stretch to say that the lakers would have been much better off sharing the ball more. thats all i am saying. basketball is not meant to be played like a big one on one game out there with the other 4 standing around. the lakers are a great team if and only if they move the ball and play the right way. when its the kobe show......they just are not nearly as good.

[sosolid4u09]

first and foremost. when did i ever say pippen was better offensively than gasol? i have been saying gasol is a superior offensive player and rebounder on here for weeks. that was the point of the question.....to finally make you put up or shut up about the gasol bashing that goes on here all the time. i totally agree with your take on gasol vs pippen. totally agree.

hero worship? jordan in 96 was a far great player than kobe is currently. fact. stop trying to pretend like ray allen is a defensive stopper. and stop ****ing pretending like you could press up on jordan and take away his space one on one. nobody could ever do that. so why would ray allen or tony allen be able to do something that a prime dumars and payton could not do?

beyond absurd. if ray allen/tony allen and the celtics were so geat they would not have gotten torched by wade. why did wade torch them? because he can blow by one on one defense at will and get to the rim or set up his teammates. why could lebron not do that as well as wade? because lebron was struggling with his shot. therefore the celtics laid off him and forced him to shoot....and he wasn't making enough for them to change. its that simple. for kobe....they pressed up on him and tried to force him to drive. ....he could not do it consistently and even when he did get by ray allen....he was making the wrong decisions most of the time.

sorry.....payton in his prime is literally ten times the defender ray allen has ever been and much much better than tony allen as well. and it was the one on one defense of ray and tony that actually gave kobe all the trouble because he could not get by them one on one. end of story.


I seem to remember you saying over and over how its more impressive holding jordan and PIPPEN to below their averages....than kobe and gasol.

Your implying jordan>kobe (which i agree with) and pippen> gasol.

SO dont come out with ''first and foremost. when did i ever say pippen was better offensively than gasol''
Gasol was held to WAY below his playoff averages in the finals by the 2010 celtics. Do you mention that? do you talk about that? as usual you conveniently ignore certain stats that disprove your agenda driven points.

[ginobli2311]

o yea i forgot. wade is ten times better than kobe apparently :lol

never said that. he's a much more dynamic offensive player though.....and is much harder for a team like the celtics to stop because he can make jump shots and get to the rim and finish and he is a willing passer.

kobe can't get to the rim like wade and he isn't as good of or as willing of a passer as wade is. its about matchups dude......kobe is tougher matchup for a team like the suns........do you understand the difference?

[ginobli2311]

I seem to remember you saying over and over how its more impressive holding jordan and PIPPEN to below their averages....than kobe and gasol.

Your implying jordan>kobe (which i agree with) and pippen> gasol.

SO dont come out with ''first and foremost. when did i ever say pippen was better offensively than gasol''
Gasol was held to WAY below his playoff averages in the finals by the 2010 celtics. Do you mention that? do you talk about that? as usual you conveniently ignore certain stats that disprove your agenda driven points.

i never never never ever said that pippen was better offensively than gasol. in fact, i've been on here for weeks saying that gasol is closing the gap with pippen as who the overall better player is. i've been saying that gasol is better offensively and on the boards and is proably equal to or better than pippen in terms of passing.

i was using jordan/pippen as an offensive tandem in my post. yes....i believe that jordan/pippen are better offensively than kobe/gasol. but that is mainly because jordan is light years the offensive force that kobe is.

but to be clear. i think gasol is a better offensive player than pippen. end of story. so what can you say now?

also....the bulls offense was much better than the lakers offense. and saying otherwise is a joke. you can't ignore all the evidence.

[chopchop20]

I seem to remember you saying over and over how its more impressive holding jordan and PIPPEN to below their averages....than kobe and gasol.

Your implying jordan>kobe (which i agree with) and pippen> gasol.

SO dont come out with ''first and foremost. when did i ever say pippen was better offensively than gasol''
Gasol was held to WAY below his playoff averages in the finals by the 2010 celtics. Do you mention that? do you talk about that? as usual you conveniently ignore certain stats that disprove your agenda driven points.

This guy is truly schizo... he must have 30 different personalities. He clearly said that Pippen was a better offensive player than Gasol


also....claiming that the 10 lakers were better offensively than the 96 bulls is beyond absurd. flat out a joke. you can't just come on here and say things like when every single bit of evidence favors the bulls.

i also find it funny that now gasol is better than pippen offensively because it helps your argument. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

This guy is truly a nutjob....

[ginobli2311]

This guy is truly schizo... he must have 30 different personalities. He clearly said that Pippen was a better offensive player than Gasol



This guy is truly a nutjob....

you guys are morons. there is a difference between asking questions and how i feel.

seriously. i highly doubt that before you typed that gasol was better offensively than pippen you would have said that a week ago when the lakers were on the verge of losing and gasol was getting hammered on here and in the media.

i was pointing out what a 180 lakers/kobe fans have done on gasol if you are now willing to say gasol is better offensively than pippen....something i've been saying on here for weeks.

i apologize if you didn't hammer gasol in the finals....but most kobe fans did....so i don't think what i said is wrong.

but you continue to try to attack me personally because i am winning the debate.

you can't answer the following:

what is more impressive.

holding the much better offensive team well below their averages and holding jordan to well below his averages in the finals?

or

holding a good but not great offensive team to slightly below their averages and holding kobe to his exact same numbers he always puts up in the finals?

its obvious what the answer is. your only argument is that the defensive player of the year in payton and the sonics had little to do with the bulls struggles and that the bulls just randomly played poorly.

[chopchop20]

you guys are morons. there is a difference between asking questions and how i feel.

Nope... ur just a liar. everytime you get tangled up in your web of lies, you change your story and LIE again! :oldlol:


seriously. i highly doubt that before you typed that gasol was better offensively than pippen you would have said that a week ago when the lakers were on the verge of losing and gasol was getting hammered on here and in the media.

So ur Ms. Cleo now, you can read minds?


i was pointing out what a 180 lakers/kobe fans have done on gasol if you are now willing to say gasol is better offensively than pippen....something i've been saying on here for weeks.

But this has not to do with the discussion. Earlier you were pointing out that Pippen was a better offensive player than Gasol. Then I busted ur a.ss with stats and Bsketball 101... and now ur flip flopping, AGAIN :oldlol:


what is more impressive.

holding the much better offensive team well below their averages and holding jordan to well below his averages in the finals?

LMAO... after getting roasted about Pippen, now you eliminate him from your previous argument to suit ur flawed logic :roll: :roll: :roll:

[indiefan24]

so i don't think what i said is wrong.

in your mind are you ever wrong?

keeeep on typing!

[ginobli2311]

Nope... ur just a liar. everytime you get tangled up in your web of lies, you change your story and LIE again! :oldlol:



So ur Ms. Cleo now, you can read minds?



But this has not to do with the discussion. Earlier you were pointing out that Pippen was a better offensive player than Gasol. Then I busted ur a.ss with stats and Bsketball 101... and now ur flip flopping, AGAIN :oldlol:


LMAO... after getting roasted about Pippen, now you eliminate him from your previous argument to suit ur flawed logic :roll: :roll: :roll:


again not true at all. i maintain that jordan/pippen tandem is better offensively than kobe/gasol....just like i did from the beginning. i never said pippen was better offensively....you just misunderstood that or are trying to use that to shift focus because you have been owned so badly.

sorry dude. your posts always end up with personal attacks.

forget all of that anyway. i just explained to you why you are confusing better defense with different defense.

let me ask you this. did kobe play good defense on rondo? he didn't pressure him....he didn't prevent him from shooting open jumpers....he didn't close down the passing lanes....and he didn't prevent rondo from getting into the paint. so was that terrible defense....or was it smart defense to try and make rondo beat them?

what would you rather have with jordan? taking jumpers or have him getting into the paint and to the free throw line and setting up his teammates for wide open shots?

come on man....its obvious what the strategy was. and that strategy was dictated because jordan is impossible to stop if you body him....just like wade. are you denying this?

as far as lebron goes. he was stopped one on one for the most part. what i said was dead on. pierce laid off him....one on one.....and forced him to shoot as much as he could. that is one on one defense. lebron was not successful enough to alter the way the celtics played him. its that simple.

kobe was the exact same. they just played him differently because he is a different player. so what you see as great defense is simply different defense. you can't give kobe the shot....but you could give lebron the shot in that series. different players require different defense......duh.

[indiefan24]

your posts always end up with personal attacks.

oh irony..

[ginobli2311]

oh irony..

really. when have i tried to get people banned. i am always defending myself. even if you think i am dead wrong....i always provide more evidence well thought out posts than 99% of the kobe homers on here.

just go away indie....participate in the debate or leave. you know you are scared.....so just leave.

[indiefan24]

really. when have i tried to get people banned. i am always defending myself. even if you think i am dead wrong....i always provide more evidence well thought out posts than 99% of the kobe homers on here.

just go away indie....participate in the debate or leave. you know you are scared.....so just leave.

participating in a debate with you is like listening to nails scratching on a chalkboard

why debate with trolls?

[ginobli2311]

lets start fresh then.

i maintain the following....you guys point out what is wrong:

1. Payton would be the best defender on either the celtics or sonics teams
2. The 96 Bulls were a better offensive team than the 2010 Lakers
3. Jordan was a much better offensive force than Kobe at this time
4. Its more impressive to hold jordan well below his finals averages than it is to hold kobe at his normal finals numbers
5. Jordan/Pippen is a better offensive tandem than Kobe/Gasol
6. Jordan did not take the amount of terrible jump shots outside of the offense that kobe did....thus inflating the celtics defensive prowess and stats and limiting the effectiveness of the kobe's teammates at times

[Mr. Jabbar]

lets start fresh then.

i maintain the following....you guys point out what is wrong:

1. Payton would be the best defender on either the celtics or sonics teams
2. The 96 Bulls were a better offensive team than the 2010 Lakers
3. Jordan was a much better offensive force than Kobe at this time
4. Its more impressive to hold jordan well below his finals averages than it is to hold kobe at his normal finals numbers
5. Jordan/Pippen is a better offensive tandem than Kobe/Gasol
6. Jordan did not take the amount of terrible jump shots outside of the offense that kobe did....thus inflating the celtics defensive prowess and stats and limiting the effectiveness of the kobe's teammates at times

I know your agenda blinds you a bit, but you forgot to add Overall team D BOS is better than SEA

[ginobli2311]

I know your agenda blinds you a bit, but you forgot to add Overall team D BOS is better than SEA

but how?

sonics had a better defensive rating and did a better job slowing down a much better offense.

how are they better?

[indiefan24]

lets start fresh then.

i maintain the following....you guys point out what is wrong:

1. Payton would be the best defender on either the celtics or sonics teams
2. The 96 Bulls were a better offensive team than the 2010 Lakers
3. Jordan was a much better offensive force than Kobe at this time
4. Its more impressive to hold jordan well below his finals averages than it is to hold kobe at his normal finals numbers
5. Jordan/Pippen is a better offensive tandem than Kobe/Gasol
6. Jordan did not take the amount of terrible jump shots outside of the offense that kobe did....thus inflating the celtics defensive prowess and stats and limiting the effectiveness of the kobe's teammates at times

1. True
2. True
3. True
4. True
5. True
6. AGENDA

:oldlol:

[ginobli2311]

1. True
2. True
3. True
4. True
5. True
6. AGENDA

:oldlol:

agree to disagree about number 6.

i re-watched the 96 finals and its a nigh and day difference in all honesty. jordan routinely got the ball in the post in good position and rarely jacked up terrible shots outside of the offense.

evidence:
kobe shot 163 shots in 7 games
jordan shot 123 shots in 6 games

and even more telling is that jordan normally takes a lot more shots than he did in the 96 finals. good shots were hard to come by for jordan in the series....that is why he took over 3 shots less on average per game in that series. kobe actually took more shots even though the defense and his play called for less.

[chopchop20]

1. Payton would be the best defender on either the celtics or sonics teams

Individually, maybe.... overall does not impact the game as much as Garnett. And when it comes down to matchups, Tony Allen might be a better match for MJ because of his size and strength.


2. The 96 Bulls were a better offensive team than the 2010 Lakers

Don't see how, with their limited scoring inside -- especially Rodman. A healthy Bynum + Gasol + Odom will get you 50 points. Bulls can not match that from the 4 & 5 positions, probably not half as much



3. Jordan was a much better offensive force than Kobe at this time
Statistics don't support this argument.

Jordan 30.7 PPG 45.9 FG%
Kobe 29.2 PPG 45.8 FG%

Better.. slightly. Much? not at all unless ur using a logarithmic scale


4. Its more impressive to hold jordan well below his finals averages than it is to hold kobe at his normal finals numbers
They both shot roughly the same, how can one be more impressive than the other


5. Jordan/Pippen is a better offensive tandem than Kobe/Gasol
Statistics don't support this argument. Plus, any coach in his right mind would rather have the inside-out game going -- especially with a big man who commands a double team and can kick out to open shooters


6. Jordan did not take the amount of terrible jump shots outside of the offense that kobe did....thus inflating the celtics defensive prowess and stats and limiting the effectiveness of the kobe's teammates at times
Total fantasy.... ur making up things out of delusion:oldlol:

[ginobli2311]

Individually, maybe.... overall does not impact the game as much as Garnett. And when it comes down to matchups, Tony Allen might be a better match for MJ because of his size and strength.



Don't see how, with their limited scoring inside -- especially Rodman. A healthy Bynum + Gasol + Odom will get you 50 points. Bulls can not match that from the 4 & 5 positions, probably not half as much


Statistics don't support this argument


They both shot roughly the same, how can one be more impressive than the other


Statistics don't support this argument. Plus, any coach in his right mind would rather have the inside-out game going -- especially with a big man who commands a double team and can kick out to open shooters


Total fantasy.... ur making up things out of delusion:oldlol:


agree to disagree about everything then. its hard to debate when you ignore the facts. i understand what you are saying and in theory i agree with some of what you say. but theory is different than reality.

[tpols]

lets start fresh then.

i maintain the following....you guys point out what is wrong:

1. Payton would be the best defender on either the celtics or sonics teams
2. The 96 Bulls were a better offensive team than the 2010 Lakers
3. Jordan was a much better offensive force than Kobe at this time
4. Its more impressive to hold jordan well below his finals averages than it is to hold kobe at his normal finals numbers
5. Jordan/Pippen is a better offensive tandem than Kobe/Gasol
6. Jordan did not take the amount of terrible jump shots outside of the offense that kobe did....thus inflating the celtics defensive prowess and stats and limiting the effectiveness of the kobe's teammates at times
1. at the guard position he would...Boston's team help/team defense was nearly flawless
2. okay...
3. opinion... he was better, but not much better.
4. now you're leading with your questions/assumptions
5. nope, don't agree; top 3 all time SG and best offensive big man in NBA>GOAT SG and pippen (I'd rather have a HOF SG/PF tandem than have two great players that essentially play the same position).
6. RING RING RING We have an AGENDA here!

[ginobli2311]

1. at the guard position he would...Boston's team help/team defense was nearly flawless
2. okay...
3. opinion... he was better, but not much better.
4. now you're leading with your questions/assumptions
5. nope, don't agree; top 3 all time SG and best offensive big man in NBA>GOAT SG and pippen (I'd rather have a HOF SG/PF tandem than have two great players that essentially play the same position).
6. RING RING RING We have an AGENDA here!

4......so jordan playing much worse than he normally does has nothing to do with the sonics defense. yet kobe literally playing the exact same way he always does in the finals is because the celtics play great defense???????

6. agenda? can you say you have watched the series in the last week like i have? why did jordan take almost 4 less shots a game in this series than he normally does? because if he had taken 24 shots a game....those extra 4 shots would have been bad forces and would have hurt his team. kobe took about 3 to 4 terribly forced jumpers a game. and it really hurt his team....especially because so many of the games were in doubt going into the 4th qtr.

agenda? i think not....its called facts. 163 shots in 7 games for kobe and 123 shots in 6 games for jordan. ring ring ring....we have facts here!

[chopchop20]

agree to disagree about number 6.

i re-watched the 96 finals and its a nigh and day difference in all honesty. jordan routinely got the ball in the post in good position and rarely jacked up terrible shots outside of the offense.

evidence:
kobe shot 163 shots in 7 games
jordan shot 123 shots in 6 games

and even more telling is that jordan normally takes a lot more shots than he did in the 96 finals. good shots were hard to come by for jordan in the series....that is why he took over 3 shots less on average per game in that series. kobe actually took more shots even though the defense and his play called for less.

Boston would not allow such clean catches, and they'd trap the ball out of his hands if he did. He would not play iso in the post against Boston.

And explain with his good position in the post, why his FG% was so sub-Jordan and Kobe-like?

[tpols]

4......so jordan playing much worse than he normally does has nothing to do with the sonics defense. yet kobe literally playing the exact same way he always does in the finals is because the celtics play great defense???????

6. agenda? can you say you have watched the series in the last week like i have? why did jordan take almost 4 less shots a game in this series than he normally does? because if he had taken 24 shots a game....those extra 4 shots would have been bad forces and would have hurt his team. kobe took about 3 to 4 terribly forced jumpers a game. and it really hurt his team....especially because so many of the games were in doubt going into the 4th qtr.

agenda? i think not....its called facts. 163 shots in 7 games for kobe and 123 shots in 6 games for jordan. ring ring ring....we have facts here!
You do realize anyone can come up with misleading statements and biased opinions, put them in a list, and then proclaim them as facts?

If they're facts then how come nobody's agreeing with the list entirely?

I agree Kobe underplayed in the series as a whole, but the defense he went up against was an all time great. And all though that doesn't excuse his play entirely it is part of the reason he didn't play well.

And, yes, Jordan WAS a better basketball player than kobe bryant.

It's one thing to see shit from a nuetral stance like I am, as a nets fan, but you my man, you are clearly a kobe hater.

[ginobli2311]

Boston would not allow such clean catches, and they'd trap the ball out of his hands if he did. He would not play iso in the post against Boston.

And explain with his good position in the post, why his FG% was so sub-Jordan and Kobe-like?

because there was always a hand in his face and payton really disrupted his play in games 4, 5, and 6 especially.

again....i totally agree with what you said about boston. that is the point dude. let me say this clearly. the fact that kobe shot so many more shots than jordan proves my point for me. kobe had no business forcing up those shots. jordan actually had the ball in better scoring position throughout the series than kobe did.

i have said it a million times. its a testament to kobe's greatness that he made almost 41% in the series. but sorry......the fact that kobe took 3 more shots a game in the series is a joke. especially because the bulls relied on jordan offensively throughout the year than the lakers did on kobe. kobe should have been taking around 18 shots a game.....he took 23....and usually 3 to 5 shots a game were terrible jacks.

you honestly don't think the lakers would have been much better off getting gasol/odom/bynum those extra 5 shots a game? how much worse would the celtics look on defense if the lakers had played team ball all series or kobe had focused on attacking and creating? much much worse.

again....you make my point for me.

[sosolid4u09]

You do realize anyone can come up with misleading statements and biased opinions, put them in a list, and then proclaim them as facts?

If they're facts then how come nobody's agreeing with the list entirely?

I agree Kobe underplayed in the series as a whole, but the defense he went up against was an all time great. And all though that doesn't excuse his play entirely it is part of the reason he didn't play well.

And, yes, Jordan WAS a better basketball player than kobe bryant.

It's one thing to see shit from a nuetral stance like I am, as a nets fan, but you my man, you are clearly a kobe hater.
:applause:

[chopchop20]

......so jordan playing much worse than he normally does has nothing to do with the sonics defense. yet kobe literally playing the exact same way he always does in the finals is because the celtics play great defense???????

I'll try to refrain from negative comments, but.... of all ur "questionable" theories, this might be the most illogical.

What does Kobe past Finals have to do with this year? The old saying, what have you done for me lately... The 2010 Playoffs as a whole should be the only reliable reference.

Is the present not a truer indicator of performance than the past? Ur trying to lump all of the Finals together and it does not make sense. Using your logic, Shaq in the 2010 Finals would be the MDE based on what he did in 2000 - 2003 ignoring the fact the he has deteriorated physically and does not dominate the game like he used to

So looking at Kobe 2010 Finals stats outside of the 2010 Playoffs is similarly irrational. I understand why ur doing it -- to win an argument. But the FACT remains that coming into the Finals, Kobe was having the best Playoffs in 2010, and the Celtics held him well below his averages - no different than what Seattle did to MJ


6. agenda? can you say you have watched the series in the last week like i have? why did jordan take almost 4 less shots a game in this series than he normally does? because if he had taken 24 shots a game....those extra 4 shots would have been bad forces and would have hurt his team. kobe took about 3 to 4 terribly forced jumpers a game. and it really hurt his team....especially because so many of the games were in doubt going into the 4th qtr.

agenda? i think not....its called facts. 163 shots in 7 games for kobe and 123 shots in 6 games for jordan. ring ring ring....we have facts here!


I really don't know where to start here because it sounds like gibberish... Kobe took more shots than Jordan, so he sucks :confusedshrug:

WTF is this supposed to mean?

[ginobli2311]

You do realize anyone can come up with misleading statements and biased opinions, put them in a list, and then proclaim them as facts?

If they're facts then how come nobody's agreeing with the list entirely?

I agree Kobe underplayed in the series as a whole, but the defense he went up against was an all time great. And all though that doesn't excuse his play entirely it is part of the reason he didn't play well.

And, yes, Jordan WAS a better basketball player than kobe bryant.

It's one thing to see shit from a nuetral stance like I am, as a nets fan, but you my man, you are clearly a kobe hater.

so i'm using opinions....yet the facts state that the sonics were slightly better defensively....


and then you say...and i quote....."but the defense he want up against was an all time great".....are you seriously calling me out for opinions? beyond absurd dude.

and for the last time. nobody is saying that the celtics didn't play good defense....i never ever said that. we are comparing the defense of the celtics and the sonics. they were both good defensive teams....but neither is an all time great defense by any measure.

people aren't agreeing with me because in their mind they think the celtics were much better than they are. they see a ten minute video clip and try to pretend like different defense is better defense.

i keep hearing..."oh...they let jordan catch the ball and didn't press up on him"...that is true. but you are then ignoring that you can't press up on jordan or wade. if you do its it over. they are either getting to the line, the rim, or creating a great shot for a teammate. with kobe....you can press up on him and you really don't have to worry about him driving that much now.

[sosolid4u09]

I'll try to refrain from negative comments, but.... of all ur "questionable" theories, this might be the most illogical.

What does Kobe past Finals have to do with this year? The old saying, what have you done for me lately... The 2010 Playoffs as a whole should be the only reliable reference.

Is the present not a truer indicator of performance than the past? Ur trying to lump all of the Finals together and it does not make sense. Using your logic, Shaq in the 2010 Finals would be the MDE based on what he did in 2000 - 2003 ignoring the fact the he has deteriorated physically and does not dominate the game like he used to

So looking at Kobe 2010 Finals stats outside of the 2010 Playoffs is similarly irrational. I understand why ur doing it -- to win an argument. But the FACT remains that coming into the Finals, Kobe was having the best Playoffs in 2010, and the Celtics held him well below his averages - no different than what Seattle did to MJ



I really don't know where to start here because it sounds like gibberish... Kobe took more shots than Jordan, so he sucks :confusedshrug:

WTF is this supposed to mean?


man thats what ive been trying to say.
ginobli2311 KEEPS saying how boston held kobe to his USUAL statistics. how the **** when he shot 50% in the playoffs and it dropped to 40% in the finals, playing the same damm way??

His argument is that you have to look at his past finals appearences. WHY?! who the **** says thats the better stat to use? like you said the PRESENT is a much better way to analyse how a guy is playing rather than past finals which are completely unrelated. This is what i mean when I say he only uses stats that support his point and TOTALLY ignores stats that disprove it.

On one hand he says Pippen is better than gasol, then he backtracks on that. Yet he forgets the fact that Gasol shot 56% in the playoffs and 49% in the finals. Why the **** is that? I suppose Pau was jacking up dump shots just like kobe was?

Also the question is sonics 96 vs celtics 2010. WOT D **** HAS KOBES PAST FINALS got to with anything?!?1 thats evidence of pure hating ryt there??? If wee talkin bout sonics vs celtics stick to these damm things. Why bring up kobes past finals numbers? when his CURRENT numbers are a far more accurate way to analyse how a guy is playing

[tpols]

so i'm using opinions....yet the facts state that the sonics were slightly better defensively....


and then you say...and i quote....."but the defense he want up against was an all time great".....are you seriously calling me out for opinions? beyond absurd dude.

and for the last time. nobody is saying that the celtics didn't play good defense....i never ever said that. we are comparing the defense of the celtics and the sonics. they were both good defensive teams....but neither is an all time great defense by any measure.

people aren't agreeing with me because in their mind they think the celtics were much better than they are. they see a ten minute video clip and try to pretend like different defense is better defense.

i keep hearing..."oh...they let jordan catch the ball and didn't press up on him"...that is true. but you are then ignoring that you can't press up on jordan or wade. if you do its it over. they are either getting to the line, the rim, or creating a great shot for a teammate. with kobe....you can press up on him and you really don't have to worry about him driving that much now.
Okay?! The fact that jordan and wade can blow by better is a reason for WHY it happened, but no one gives a shit about that.

The fact of the matter is kobe was getting more pressure on him.

And the bolded part is just chock full of irony.

Lol at these kids who think they're smart by revealing kobe's inefficient stats and trying to enlighten us. Oh please enlighten me some more chief.:lol

[ginobli2311]

I'll try to refrain from negative comments, but.... of all ur "questionable" theories, this might be the most illogical.

What does Kobe past Finals have to do with this year? The old saying, what have you done for me lately... The 2010 Playoffs as a whole should be the only reliable reference.

Is the present not a truer indicator of performance than the past? Ur trying to lump all of the Finals together and it does not make sense. Using your logic, Shaq in the 2010 Finals would be the MDE based on what he did in 2000 - 2003 ignoring the fact the he has deteriorated physically and does not dominate the game like he used to

So looking at Kobe 2010 Finals stats outside of the 2010 Playoffs is similarly irrational. I understand why ur doing it -- to win an argument. But the FACT remains that coming into the Finals, Kobe was having the best Playoffs in 2010, and the Celtics held him well below his averages - no different than what Seattle did to MJ



I really don't know where to start here because it sounds like gibberish... Kobe took more shots than Jordan, so he sucks :confusedshrug:

WTF is this supposed to mean?


ok. listen carefully. kobe has a history of playing poorly in the finals. just like he has a history of struggling against solid the better defenses in the playoffs. you want to use a ten game stretch against the suns/jazz to show the difference between his play and numbers. that is not a good comparison because the suns/jazz are not good defensively and a are a great matchup for kobe. you could have put any of the 5 best defensive teams in the league against kobe in the finals and his numbers would have gone way down.

just look at the thunder series. why did kobe struggle so much in that series? maybe because they play good defense?

you keep trying to credit the celtics for doing something that every team that kobe has ever played in the finals has done. of course history matters....why wouldn't it?


kobe taking more shots than jordan is also a great indicator that kobe was taking too many forced shots. how can you not see that? kobe's forces were playing right into the celtics hands....thus inflating their defense. do you not see that?

forced shots outside of the offense = low percentage for kobe. the fact that kobe did not attack also limited the amount of attention the celtics had to use on kobe....thus allowing them to limit the other guys more easily. when the lakers moved the ball and played the right way they were virtually unstoppable.

again....nobody is saying the celtics were not very good defensively. but kobe played right into their hands all series long outside of game 6.

[ginobli2311]

man thats what ive been trying to say.
ginobli2311 KEEPS saying how boston held kobe to his USUAL statistics. how the **** when he shot 50% in the playoffs and it dropped to 40% in the finals, playing the same damm way??

His argument is that you have to look at his past finals appearences. WHY?! who the **** says thats the better stat to use? like you said the PRESENT is a much better way to analyse how a guy is playing rather than past finals which are completely unrelated. This is what i mean when I say he only uses stats that support his point and TOTALLY ignores stats that disprove it.

On one hand he says Pippen is better than gasol, then he backtracks on that. Yet he forgets the fact that Gasol shot 56% in the playoffs and 49% in the finals. Why the **** is that? I suppose Pau was jacking up dump shots just like kobe was?

Also the question is sonics 96 vs celtics 2010. WOT D **** HAS KOBES PAST FINALS got to with anything?!?1 thats evidence of pure hating ryt there??? If wee talkin bout sonics vs celtics stick to these damm things. Why bring up kobes past finals numbers? when his CURRENT numbers are a far more accurate way to analyse how a guy is playing


dude....you are trying to say the celtics are better because of what they did to kobe. but the fact remains that kobe always plays like that in the finals. how is that not relevant. so we should just ignore history? ok...forget the past. lets look at the one series kobe played in 2010 against a good another good defense....the thunder. he struggled a ton in that series as well. or are the thunder an all time great defense as well.

you people keep ignoring that any good defense would have held the lakers to much worse numbers than the suns/jazz did. my god....stop trying to use the numbers of players against poor defensive teams with great match up as the base line for the debate. its beyond absurd.

[LakersFan626]

sry kobe only scores 60 in the regular season, he plays like shit during the playoffs.

30 points or more in a stretch of 11 out of 12 playoff games this year... hardly playing bad in the playoffs.

[tpols]

dude....you are trying to say the celtics are better because of what they did to kobe. but the fact remains that kobe always plays like that in the finals. how is that not relevant. so we should just ignore history? ok...forget the past. lets look at the one series kobe played in 2010 against a good another good defense....the thunder. he struggled a ton in that series as well. or are the thunder an all time great defense as well.

you people keep ignoring that any good defense would have held the lakers to much worse numbers than the suns/jazz did. my god....stop trying to use the numbers of players against poor defensive teams with great match up as the base line for the debate. its beyond absurd.
Why are you stating the obvious bro? Of course kobe's numbers are going to go down when he plays against teams that are better defensively. Just like every player on offense plays worse against a good defense than they would against a bad one.

And are you insinuating that the reason kobe doesn't play well in the finals is cuz he crumbles under pressure when the stakes are risen?

Cuz if that's the case than you're a dumbass cuz he's been in many playoff clutch situations where he came through that took just as much guts.

[sosolid4u09]

dude....you are trying to say the celtics are better because of what they did to kobe. but the fact remains that kobe always plays like that in the finals. how is that not relevant. so we should just ignore history? ok...forget the past. lets look at the one series kobe played in 2010 against a good another good defense....the thunder. he struggled a ton in that series as well. or are the thunder an all time great defense as well.

you people keep ignoring that any good defense would have held the lakers to much worse numbers than the suns/jazz did. my god....stop trying to use the numbers of players against poor defensive teams with great match up as the base line for the debate. its beyond absurd.


kobe went into the thunder series playing poorly! he was visibly struggling he had absolutely no lift in his jumpers. come on even YOU cant deny that? once he had his knee drained he looked MUCH better. and subsequently played better against the Jazz and suns. jazz btw had a defensive rating of 105, 10th in the league.

Kobe went into the finals playing well. and they limited his shooting %. Sure kobe took bad shots through the series but a 9% drop? come on?

Also im not saying celtics were good because of what they did to kobe..... im saying the exact OPPOSITE your the one saying that! Ive asked you over and over why isit that Pau Gasol shot so poorly in the finals?!?!? You refuse to answer that one?

[ginobli2311]

Why are you stating the obvious bro? Of course kobe's numbers are going to go down when he plays against teams that are better defensively. Just like every player on offense plays worse against a good defense than they would against a bad one.

And are you insinuating that the reason kobe doesn't play well in the finals is cuz he crumbles under pressure when the stakes are risen?

Cuz if that's the case than you're a dumbass cuz he's been in many playoff clutch situations where he came through that took just as much guts.

i don't know why kobe struggles in the finals. he just does....and it think its fair to bring up his history when you are trying to give a defense credit for holding him to his averages. its that simple. the sonics held jordan far below his normal averages. the celtics held kobe to his exact averages.....

one is more impressive.

[chopchop20]

dude....you are trying to say the celtics are better because of what they did to kobe. but the fact remains that kobe always plays like that in the finals. how is that not relevant. so we should just ignore history? ok...forget the past. lets look at the one series kobe played in 2010 against a good another good defense....the thunder. he struggled a ton in that series as well. or are the thunder an all time great defense as well.

you people keep ignoring that any good defense would have held the lakers to much worse numbers than the suns/jazz did. my god....stop trying to use the numbers of players against poor defensive teams with great match up as the base line for the debate. its beyond absurd.

NO

I'm saying Boston is better based on what I've seen and what I have seen them do. Also the Boston personnel 1 - 5 is stronger, IMO. They have more size, they're more physical, probably a bit more athletic.

The Celtics beat Wade, Bron, Howard. If they had beaten Kobe and the Lakers, this would have gone down as a far more impressive feat that the Sonics beating the Bulls in 1996 -- IMO.

The Celtics are a very good defense based on what they did to all competition -- not just Kobe

[ginobli2311]

kobe went into the thunder series playing poorly! he was visibly struggling he had absolutely no lift in his jumpers. come on even YOU cant deny that? once he had his knee drained he looked MUCH better. and subsequently played better against the Jazz and suns. jazz btw had a defensive rating of 105, 10th in the league.

Kobe went into the finals playing well. and they limited his shooting %. Sure kobe took bad shots through the series but a 9% drop? come on?

Also im not saying celtics were good because of what they did to kobe..... im saying the exact OPPOSITE your the one saying that! Ive asked you over and over why isit that Pau Gasol shot so poorly in the finals?!?!? You refuse to answer that one?

gasol shot poorly for a number of reasons:

1. KG/Sheed/Perk are three of the ten best post defenders in the league...this was by far the main reason....it was a really though matchup for gasol

2. When Bynum got hurt it made a tough matchup even tougher. the lakers didn't have any other bigs to help gasol out. the celtics could now throw a three headed monster at gasol all game long they could stay fresh.

3. kobe's indecisive play and ball dominating iso shot jacking really negatively impacted the flow of the lakers on offense. i don't think this was a huge factor against gasol....but it certainly was a big factor for the poor offense of the lakers throughout the series

4. gasol had to work his ass off on defense. he had to guard kg/sheed/big baby, dominate the glass, and protect the rim. he was playing a lot of minutes and had the most responsibility on defense for the lakers.

satisfied?

[sosolid4u09]

gasol shot poorly for a number of reasons:

1. KG/Sheed/Perk are three of the ten best post defenders in the league...this was by far the main reason....it was a really though matchup for gasol

2. When Bynum got hurt it made a tough matchup even tougher. the lakers didn't have any other bigs to help gasol out. the celtics could now throw a three headed monster at gasol all game long they could stay fresh.

3. kobe's indecisive play and ball dominating iso shot jacking really negatively impacted the flow of the lakers on offense. i don't think this was a huge factor against gasol....but it certainly was a big factor for the poor offense of the lakers throughout the series

4. gasol had to work his ass off on defense. he had to guard kg/sheed/big baby, dominate the glass, and protect the rim. he was playing a lot of minutes and had the most responsibility on defense for the lakers.

satisfied?

Kool so basically what your saying is the celtics had amazing defense.
thanks just wanted to confirm that :applause:

[chopchop20]

ok. listen carefully. kobe has a history of playing poorly in the finals. just like he has a history of struggling against solid the better defenses in the playoffs. you want to use a ten game stretch against the suns/jazz to show the difference between his play and numbers. that is not a good comparison because the suns/jazz are not good defensively and a are a great matchup for kobe. you could have put any of the 5 best defensive teams in the league against kobe in the finals and his numbers would have gone way down.

just look at the thunder series. why did kobe struggle so much in that series? maybe because they play good defense?

you keep trying to credit the celtics for doing something that every team that kobe has ever played in the finals has done. of course history matters....why wouldn't it?


kobe taking more shots than jordan is also a great indicator that kobe was taking too many forced shots. how can you not see that? kobe's forces were playing right into the celtics hands....thus inflating their defense. do you not see that?

forced shots outside of the offense = low percentage for kobe. the fact that kobe did not attack also limited the amount of attention the celtics had to use on kobe....thus allowing them to limit the other guys more easily. when the lakers moved the ball and played the right way they were virtually unstoppable.

again....nobody is saying the celtics were not very good defensively. but kobe played right into their hands all series long outside of game 6.

In what context can you validly argue this point. They don't play in the same offense, they were not playing the same opponent.

Kobe always has to shoot less than MJ or he's forcing shots? :confusedshrug:

Forced shots aren't based on volume... if Jordan took only 10 shots, 9 of them might still be forced.

[ginobli2311]

Kool so basically what your saying is the celtics had amazing defense.
thanks just wanted to confirm that :applause:

good...not amazing.

just like the sonics. although the sonics were slightly better.

again....i never said the cletics were bad defensively. in fact, they were very good.

see. this is why we can't debate.....its all love and hate with you people. just so dumb.

[tpols]

gasol shot poorly for a number of reasons:

1. KG/Sheed/Perk are three of the ten best post defenders in the league...this was by far the main reason....it was a really though matchup for gasol

2. When Bynum got hurt it made a tough matchup even tougher. the lakers didn't have any other bigs to help gasol out. the celtics could now throw a three headed monster at gasol all game long they could stay fresh.

3. kobe's indecisive play and ball dominating iso shot jacking really negatively impacted the flow of the lakers on offense. i don't think this was a huge factor against gasol....but it certainly was a big factor for the poor offense of the lakers throughout the series

4. gasol had to work his ass off on defense. he had to guard kg/sheed/big baby, dominate the glass, and protect the rim. he was playing a lot of minutes and had the most responsibility on defense for the lakers.

satisfied?
wait so when kobe shoots poorly he's a terrible decision maker/player, but when gasol shoots poorly it's the defense... despite kobe getting MORE defensive attention.

Nice try tho brah:lol

[ginobli2311]

wait so when kobe shoots poorly he's a terrible decision maker/player, but when gasol shoots poorly it's the defense... despite kobe getting MORE defensive attention.

Nice try tho brah:lol

not at all dude. listen carefully. kobe jacked up terrible shots...gasol did not. fact.

also...comparing ray allen and tony allen to those kg/perk/sheed on defense is a a joke.

[tpols]

not at all dude. listen carefully. kobe jacked up terrible shots...gasol did not. fact.

also...comparing ray allen and tony allen to those kg/perk/sheed on defense is a a joke.
Tony allen is every bit as good at defending perimeter players as KG is at defending the post. Are you ****ing kidding me?! That's the only reason he's on the team.
And kobe drew way more doubles than gasol...

How can you take bad shots when you're not getting doubled and you're ten feet away from the hoop 90 % of the time? Gasol didn't even have the opportunity to take a bad shot.

[chopchop20]

Tony allen is every bit as good at defending perimeter players as KG is at defending the post. Are you ****ing kidding me?! That's the only reason he's on the team.
And kobe drew way more doubles than gasol...

How can you take bad shots when you're not getting doubled and you're ten feet away from the hoop 90 % of the time? Gasol didn't even have the opportunity to take a bad shot.

Plus, Boston BIGs not only guard their men, they cutoff the lane for penetration with help defense. There help defense is what really takes them to a higher level.

I'm not making up stuff to make the 1996 Sonics look totally inferior. but i saw so many gaps in that defense on the video and total lack of aggression with the interior defense

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJhPLQ0pj_k

[ginobli2311]

Plus, Boston BIGs not only guard their men, they cutoff the lane for penetration with help defense. There help defense is what really takes them to a higher level.

I'm not making up stuff to make the 1996 Sonics look totally inferior. but i saw so many gaps in that defense on the video and total lack of aggression with the interior defense

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJhPLQ0pj_k

so again. we should just ignore the numbers and ignore what the sonics did to a superior offensive team with the greatest perimeter force ever in MJ because of what you see on a ten minute video clip of the sonics defense?

how about I put up a ten minute clip of wade torching the celtics and base my entire opinion on that. oh wait...here it is....open shot after open shot. dunk after dunk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePZAj9ffagA

also. go to the 2:45 mark and watch why the celtics would not have been able to press up against jordan. this is what would have happened every time. again....different players call for different defense.

[tpols]

so again. we should just ignore the numbers and ignore what the sonics did to a superior offensive team with the greatest perimeter force ever in MJ because of what you see on a ten minute video clip of the sonics defense?

how about I put up a ten minute clip of wade torching the celtics and base my entire opinion on that. oh wait...here it is....open shot after open shot. dunk after dunk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePZAj9ffagA
Why are you comparing a first round celtics defense where they crushed the opposition to a celtics defense in the finals where they held ALL of the lakers to a lower percentage than what they normally shot?

Look at the different situations my friend... you're comparing apples and oranges.

[ginobli2311]

Why are you comparing a first round celtics defense where they crushed the opposition to a celtics defense in the finals where they held ALL of the lakers to a lower percentage than what they normally shot?

Look at the different situations my friend... you're comparing apples and oranges.

hardly. again...you are pretending that the lakers did not have something to do with it. its a joke actually. look at how bad ray allen looks on defense trying to guard wade. its laughable.

if wade had taken terrible jumpers all series and not attacked the rim i'm pretty sure that the celtics defense would look much much better. how do you not understand the difference dude? come on.

[chopchop20]

Why are you comparing a first round celtics defense where they crushed the opposition to a celtics defense in the finals where they held ALL of the lakers to a lower percentage than what they normally shot?

Look at the different situations my friend... you're comparing apples and oranges.

And if Wade's performance was truly indicative of Boston's defense, the Heat would have won the series.

Good offenses have bad games, good defenses have bad games. Adjustments were made and Boston played much better moving forward

[ginobli2311]

In what context can you validly argue this point. They don't play in the same offense, they were not playing the same opponent.

Kobe always has to shoot less than MJ or he's forcing shots? :confusedshrug:

Forced shots aren't based on volume... if Jordan took only 10 shots, 9 of them might still be forced.

so you don't think kobe forced about 3 to 5 shots a game. i think its a pretty fair generalization to say that jordan shot less because of the defense. he wasn't getting enough good looks to shoot 24 times a game.

kobe didn't care. he was getting up 23 plus shots a game no matter how cold he was or how bad the looks were. its a very valid comparison. they also do play in the same offensive scheme as well. the big difference is that the lakers had more guys that could get their own shot than the bulls did. the bulls were better overall offensively....but in terms of players that could create their own shots....the lakers win easily.

making it even more absurd for kobe to shoot as often as much as he did.

[ginobli2311]

And if Wade's performance was truly indicative of Boston's defense, the Heat would have won the series.

Good offenses have bad games, good defenses have bad games. Adjustments were made and Boston played much better moving forward

true. same can be said for the sonics. they played the bulls much better the last 3 games than they did the first 3 games.

just agree to disagree. i'm going of watching the entire 96 series within the last week and the numbers. and both support my side in the debate.

both defenses were actually very good. neither was an all time great defense. payton was the best defender between the two. the bulls were better offensively. jordan was tougher to stop than kobe. the sonics did a better job slowing down the bulls than the celtics did in slowing down the lakers.

that is enough for me to say the sonics were a little better.

[tpols]

so you don't think kobe forced about 3 to 5 shots a game. i think its a pretty fair generalization to say that jordan shot less because of the defense. he wasn't getting enough good looks to shoot 24 times a game.

kobe didn't care. he was getting up 23 plus shots a game no matter how cold he was or how bad the looks were. its a very valid comparison. they also do play in the same offensive scheme as well. the big difference is that the lakers had more guys that could get their own shot than the bulls did. the bulls were better overall offensively....but in terms of players that could create their own shots....the lakers win easily.

making it even more absurd for kobe to shoot as often as much as he did.
Dude why are you beating this to death? WE KNOW KOBE TOOK SOME BAD SHOTS.

That being said, kobe was his team's most valuable player; from his leadership on court, to him carrying the scoring load, he WAS the laker's best, most consistent player throughout the series. period.

You repeating, " OH NOEZ BUT HE SHOT 25% IN DA FORFTH QUARTERS!!!" twenty billion times isn't going to change anyone's mind.

[chopchop20]

true. same can be said for the sonics. they played the bulls much better the last 3 games than they did the first 3 games.

just agree to disagree. i'm going of watching the entire 96 series within the last week and the numbers. and both support my side in the debate.

both defenses were actually very good. neither was an all time great defense. payton was the best defender between the two. the bulls were better offensively. jordan was tougher to stop than kobe. the sonics did a better job slowing down the bulls than the celtics did in slowing down the lakers.

that is enough for me to say the sonics were a little better.

Conversely, you could rationalize that the Sonics should have had an easier time since Jordan did not have the interior support of a player like Pau. I mean, you could cheat off of Rodman because he wasn't an offensive threat on the inside.

Boston was able to do a good job on the perimeter and interior, which is a testament to their talent and scheme. HOWEVER, they were one of the worst rebounding teams in the league from start to finish -- and it killed them in the series, particularly in Game 7

[chopchop20]

Dude why are you beating this to death? WE KNOW KOBE TOOK SOME BAD SHOTS.

That being said, kobe was his team's most valuable player; from his leadership on court, to him carrying the scoring load, he WAS the laker's best, most consistent player throughout the series. period.

You repeating, " OH NOEZ BUT HE SHOT 25% IN DA FORFTH QUARTERS!!!" twenty billion times isn't going to change anyone's mind.

And it's hard to do a 1 to 1 comparison in the case of the Bulls and Lakers. The Lakers perimeter attack begins and ends with Kobe. Whereas, the Bulls had Pippen and Harper who were very good off the dribble

On the video, you can see the 1996 Bulls offense is a lot different from the 2010 Lakers offense. Still the triangle - but utilizing different angles of attack.

[justin43]

To help with the discussion, here is a sample.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssVv23BtTj4&feature=PlayList&p=D9C8F9588BF2CCAC&playnext_from=PL&index=1&playnext=2

Look at other videos in the playlist and decide for yourself.:pimp:

[chopchop20]

To help with the discussion, here is a sample.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssVv23BtTj4&feature=PlayList&p=D9C8F9588BF2CCAC&playnext_from=PL&index=1&playnext=2

Look at other videos in the playlist and decide for yourself.:pimp:

Nice...

Really shows how different the LA Triangle and the Chicago Triangle are. Jordan was clearly the Bulls only/best post option. Weird offensive sets - seeing the 4 & 5 on the perimeter like that

[ginobli2311]

And it's hard to do a 1 to 1 comparison in the case of the Bulls and Lakers. The Lakers perimeter attack begins and ends with Kobe. Whereas, the Bulls had Pippen and Harper who were very good off the dribble

On the video, you can see the 1996 Bulls offense is a lot different from the 2010 Lakers offense. Still the triangle - but utilizing different angles of attack.

that is why there are advanced measures like offensive ratings.

96 bulls offensive rating: 115.2....1st in the league
10 lakers offensive rating: 108.8.....11th in the league

96 sonics defensive rating: 102.1....2nd in the league
10 celtics defensive rating: 103.8.....5th in the league

now. i don't care what you say or how you feel. the 96 bulls were a better offensive team by a wide margin than the 10 lakers. this isn't just some random stat. it measures how efficiently a team scores the ball per 100 possessions. the bulls were simply much much better than the lakers....this is not up for debate at all.

now...the defensive rating is so close that its not a huge factor. it does favor the sonics though....but not enough to base a debate on.

what the sonics do have in their favor is that they had the best defender on either team in payton in the heart of his prime. this was evident in the series as payton really put the clamps on jordan in the last 3 games of the series.

the main factor though is that the sonics held the best offensive team in the league well below their averages that year and held jordan well below his averages historically in the finals.

so again. the sonics have a slightly better defensive rating and performed better against a better offensive team in the finals and held jordan to his worst finals performance ever.

sorry....i just don't see how the celtics were better by any measure.

also....another reason why the lakers offensive numbers were somewhat inflated to the bulls:

bulls competition in playoffs defensive rating:
heat 103.8......6th in league
knicks 103. 5.....4th in the league
magic 106.9....12th in the league (4 games played)

lakers competition in playoffs defensive rating:
thunder 104.6....9th in the league
jazz 105......10th in the league
suns 110.2......23rd in the league (6 games played)

do you see the difference? do you see why using the numbers from the lakers playoff run is not as accurate? of course you are going to see a sharp drop in numbers going from playing the 9th, 10th, and 23rd rated defenses to playing the celtics.

[chopchop20]

that is why there are advanced measures like offensive ratings.

96 bulls offensive rating: 115.2....1st in the league
10 lakers offensive rating: 108.8.....11th in the league

96 sonics defensive rating: 102.1....2nd in the league
10 celtics defensive rating: 103.8.....5th in the league

now. i don't care what you say or how you feel. the 96 bulls were a better offensive team by a wide margin than the 10 lakers. this isn't just some random stat. it measures how efficiently a team scores the ball per 100 possessions. the bulls were simply much much better than the lakers....this is not up for debate at all.

now...the defensive rating is so close that its not a huge factor. it does favor the sonics though....but not enough to base a debate on.

what the sonics do have in their favor is that they had the best defender on either team in payton in the heart of his prime. this was evident in the series as payton really put the clamps on jordan in the last 3 games of the series.

the main factor though is that the sonics held the best offensive team in the league well below their averages that year and held jordan well below his averages historically in the finals.

so again. the sonics have a slightly better defensive rating and performed better against a better offensive team in the finals and held jordan to his worst finals performance ever.

sorry....i just don't see how the celtics were better by any measure.

Yeah but the story that the numbers will never tell you is the matchups. Isn't that what Cleveland fans were crying about against Orlando last year.

Defending a balanced inside-out attack is more difficult than defending a perimeter based offense. I could see the 1996 Sonics having more trouble defending the 2010 Lakers than they did against the Bulls

[tpols]

that is why there are advanced measures like offensive ratings.

96 bulls offensive rating: 115.2....1st in the league
10 lakers offensive rating: 108.8.....11th in the league

96 sonics defensive rating: 102.1....2nd in the league
10 celtics defensive rating: 103.8.....5th in the league

now. i don't care what you say or how you feel. the 96 bulls were a better offensive team by a wide margin than the 10 lakers. this isn't just some random stat. it measures how efficiently a team scores the ball per 100 possessions. the bulls were simply much much better than the lakers....this is not up for debate at all.

now...the defensive rating is so close that its not a huge factor. it does favor the sonics though....but not enough to base a debate on.

what the sonics do have in their favor is that they had the best defender on either team in payton in the heart of his prime. this was evident in the series as payton really put the clamps on jordan in the last 3 games of the series.

the main factor though is that the sonics held the best offensive team in the league well below their averages that year and held jordan well below his averages historically in the finals.

so again. the sonics have a slightly better defensive rating and performed better against a better offensive team in the finals and held jordan to his worst finals performance ever.

sorry....i just don't see how the celtics were better by any measure.

also....another reason why the lakers offensive numbers were somewhat inflated to the bulls:

bulls competition in playoffs defensive rating:
heat 103.8......6th in league
knicks 103. 5.....4th in the league
magic 106.9....12th in the league (4 games played)

lakers competition in playoffs defensive rating:
thunder 104.6....9th in the league
jazz 105......10th in the league
suns 110.2......23rd in the league (6 games played)

do you see the difference? do you see why using the numbers from the lakers playoff run is not as accurate? of course you are going to see a sharp drop in numbers going from playing the 9th, 10th, and 23rd rated defenses to playing the celtics.
lol at this retard trying to use stats to compare two totally different teams that competed in two different eras with different sets of rules (handchecking versus illegaldefense/help defense) and totally different individual matchups...:roll:

[ginobli2311]

Yeah but the story that the numbers will never tell you is the matchups. Isn't that what Cleveland fans were crying about against Orlando last year.

Defending a balanced inside-out attack is more difficult than defending a perimeter based offense. I could see the 1996 Sonics having more trouble defending the 2010 Lakers than they did against the Bulls

yea. i definitely think that as well given the matchup.

but playing that hypothetical is really really tough. also....the sonics swept the rockets. hakeem played well.....but did not dominate the series. hakeem in 96 was better than gasol is currently. they also forced drexler into pretty terrible play.

no doubt the size of the lakers would have given the sonics problems.....but like i said. if they could limit hakeem....they could do even better on gasol. as for kobe......a prime payton would have had him shooting close to 35% for the series.

regardless....that is why its much better to use hard data and evidence than to use hypothetical matchups. for example....i agree that the lakers on paper should be better than the bulls were offensively....but the fact remains that they weren't....in fact, they were not even close.

[ginobli2311]

lol at this retard trying to use stats to compare two totally different teams that competed in two different eras with different sets of rules (handchecking versus illegaldefense/help defense) and totally different individual matchups...:roll:

so how would you like to compare the two defenses?....and thanks for calling me a retard. when the personal insults start to fly I always know I have won.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Tony allen is every bit as good at defending perimeter players as KG is at defending the post.

Is this a joke? KG is one of the best defenders of all time, and Tony Allen is...who, exactly?

[ginobli2311]

Is this a joke? KG is one of the best defenders of all time, and Tony Allen is...who, exactly?

yea....i'm getting tired of trying to explain how much better gary payton was than tony allen in terms of defense. gary payton was the defensive player of the year in 96.....

has tony allen ever even got a DPOY vote?

[tpols]

yea....i'm getting tired of trying to explain how much better gary payton was than tony allen in terms of defense. gary payton was the defensive player of the year in 96.....

has tony allen ever even got a DPOY vote?
tony allen is a very good perimeter defender and if you've watched the celtics at all over the past three years you'd see he was their defensive specialist... that was the only reason he stayed on the team (the guy can't even shoot the ball and he's a SG)

A lot of people that are great defenders don't get the recognition they deserve unless they put up gaudy rebounding stats or are superstars in the league (which is why guys like kobe get on the all defense team year after year; it's a reputation thing).

Gary payton was easily better than tony allen, but did MJ face the double teams kobe did every time he touched the ball? No he didn't, and tony allen+paul pierce/KG/rondo>gary payton.

[Bladers]

so how would you like to compare the two defenses?....and thanks for calling me a retard. when the personal insults start to fly I always know I have won.

Isn't that what you Major in?:wtf:
My goodness the hypocrisy, thanks for exposing yourself.

[ginobli2311]

tony allen is a very good perimeter defender and if you've watched the celtics at all over the past three years you'd see he was their defensive specialist... that was the only reason he stayed on the team (the guy can't even shoot the ball and he's a SG)

A lot of people that are great defenders don't get the recognition they deserve unless they put up gaudy rebounding stats or are superstars in the league (which is why guys like kobe get on the all defense team year after year; it's a reputation thing).

Gary payton was easily better than tony allen, but did MJ face the double teams kobe did every time he touched the ball? No he didn't, and tony allen+paul pierce/KG/rondo>gary payton.

again...nobody is saying tony allen is not a good defender. its just that payton was an all time great defender.

[ginobli2311]

Isn't that what you Major in?:wtf:
My goodness the hypocrisy, thanks for exposing yourself.

lol....actually no. i only resort to that when i have been called names and had people try to ban me over and over in the same thread.

but seeing how nobody can respond to the last few points i made.....lets close this thread and agree that the sonics were slightly better defensively.

i have explained every angle you can come up with and all the numbers and evidence backs me up.

[tpols]

Is this a joke? KG is one of the best defenders of all time, and Tony Allen is...who, exactly?
lol KG an ALL TIME BEST DEFENDER?! Do you really believe that? KG has a great offensive game (great shot, great post moves, explosive finisher) but to say he's an all time great defender is just asinine.

KG has has hit the 2 bpg mark TWICE in his 14 years in the league.

To put that in perspective with a real all time great, Hakeem Olajuwan averaged 4.6 and 4.2 in his prime and his career average bpg is a full block higher than kg's best season! He also beat him handily in the steals department.

You are overrating the shit out of kg's defense. Sure he's a good defender but come on now.

[Bladers]

lol....actually no. i only resort to that when i have been called names and had people try to ban me over and over in the same thread.

First your a liar, i have seen you in threads after threads dishing out personal insults in the first few pages. It doesn't even take you long to get personal with people that you disagree with.

Infact, I will prove it to you.
Page 5, Post #61 of this thread you said.


ok....im going to try and refrain from name calling. but your post is so flawed.





but seeing how nobody can respond to the last few points i made.....lets close this thread and agree that the sonics were slightly better defensively.

i have explained every angle you can come up with and all the numbers and evidence backs me up.

Actually you haven't explained, but you have exposed that you are a Kobe hater. Why? Where is my prove?

Well lets look at your first post in the thread.


I think the team defenses were very similar. but gary payton was literally ten times the defender that ray allen or tony allen is. people either forget or are too young to know the kind of defender payton was. he's one of the 10 to 15 best perimeter defenders of all time. he was in the heart of his prime in 96 and was a tough matchup for jordan.

i have the series on dvd. trust me....jordan played well to shoot 42%. also....the rest of the bulls were awful for most of that series....jordan had to take a lot of forced shots that he normally wouldn't have taken.

basically the exact opposite of kobe. kobe had a matchup he should have been able to exploit...but he couldn't. kobe also should have deferred to his teammates because they were playing better than him. jordan had a brutal matchup and his teammates were really struggling so it forced him to do more.

i can't remember....but i think jordan was more efficient from the field than kobe was as well.


Now compare your initial statement to the rest of the posts you have made.
It clearly shows your agenda as a Kobe Hater.

[ginobli2311]

lol KG an ALL TIME BEST DEFENDER?! Do you really believe that? KG has a great offensive game (great shot, great post moves, explosive finisher) but to say he's an all time great defender is just asinine.

KG has has hit the 2 bpg mark TWICE in his 14 years in the league.

To put that in perspective with a real all time great, Hakeem Olajuwan averaged 4.6 and 4.2 in his prime and his career average bpg is a full block higher than kg's best season! He also beat him handily in the steals department.

You are overrating the shit out of kg's defense. Sure he's a good defender but come on now.

oh wow. dude.....i don't even know if i should respond. i should probably just let the rest of the board destroy you on this one.

KG is one of the 10 best overall defenders of ALL-TIME. wow....i wasted all this time debating someone that has no clue. it all makes sense now. just wow.....referencing blocks??????? ugh.....

[tpols]

oh wow. dude.....i don't even know if i should respond. i should probably just let the rest of the board destroy you on this one.

KG is one of the 10 best overall defenders of ALL-TIME. wow....i wasted all this time debating someone that has no clue. it all makes sense now. just wow.....referencing blocks??????? ugh.....

Pippen
Rodman
Jordan
Payton
Hakeem
Wilt
Russell
Ben Wallace
Mutumbo
KAJ

There's ten guys better than him.

Now please go to bed.

[OldSchoolBBall]

1 play

You act as if Kobe gets a red carpet to the rim after beating his man. Boston is much better than that. I don't understand why it's a problem for a guy to recognize the defense, realize where the help is going to come from is a bad thing?

I didn't mean to give that impression, but my point stands. Kobe's manner of play allows the defense to dictate the game to him. It sorta plays right into a team like Boston's hands. And it's not just that one play -- similar (but not as egregious) examples could be seen in every game of the series when Kobe tried to post up. Many/most times he would get the ball in the post, and instead of executing a quick move, he would wait...and wait...and wait...until Boston aligned their defense perfectly to stop any possible avenue of attack, and then he would eventually be doubled/shaded, and pass out of the post. It's just dumb basketball. It wasn't by design either, as would be the case if you had guys in motion, where you're taking the double team on purpose to find cutters or open shooters cross-court. It was totally stagnant, and he just waited and waited time and time again.

The speed with which he reads defenses and defenders' movements is, imo, the biggest difference between him and Jordan, and against quality defensive teams that can make a world of difference, because instead of keeping the defense on their heels, you're allowing the defense to make YOU react.

LOL @ tpols, who doesn't think that KG is an all-time level defender. :oldlol: KG has made 8 defensine first teams and 2 defensive second teams, and also won a DPOY. He is, without question, an all-time level defender. Comparing his defensive ability or impact to Tony Allen (who? Exactly) is a joke, and you should be laughed off the site for doing so. As a thought exercise, here are the only 6'10"+ defenders in history who are better than KG:

Wilt
Russell
DRob
Hakeem
Duncan
possibly Mutombo
possibly young KAJ
possibly Shaq (based on defensive impact)

That's it. And even many of these players (Mutombo/Duncan/Wilt) don't have nearly the defensive versatility of KG. Regardless, KG is a top 10 big man defender of all time in terms of defensive impact.

[ginobli2311]

First your a liar, i have seen you in threads after threads dishing out personal insults in the first few pages. It doesn't even take you long to get personal with people that you disagree with.

Infact, I will prove it to you.
Page 5, Post #61 of this thread you said.






Actually you haven't explained, but you have exposed that you are a Kobe hater. Why? Where is my prove?

Well lets look at your first post in the thread.




Now compare your initial statement to the rest of the posts you have made.
It clearly shows your agenda as a Kobe Hater.

what is wrong with that statement....in many of the games pippen and his team were so bad that he had to take some terrible shots.

after watching the series again.....i realized even more so that this was true. that is why he shot so poorly....it was great defense at times.

i was not talking about volume dude. everything is not always about volume. jordan took quite a few shots he normally would not take. jordan also tried to make a lot of plays he normally would not.

what i meant was that a larger percentage of jordan's shots were tougher than normal due to the defense and due to the fact that pippen was non existent most of the series. harper was hurt as well....thus putting more pressure on jordan to score and create. one of jordan's key aspects in his game against good defenses has always been shot selection and creating for his teammates. this series was really tougher than most because his team was struggling big time....kerr was in a terrible shooting slump.....and because payton could actually guard him one on one.

therefore jordan had to take a lot of shots he normally would not take. again...that statement is true and has nothing to do with volume.

i brought up kobe's volume because its even more absurd that kobe was taking so many shots when he was missing so often and his teammates were not struggling the way that jordan's were.

ok.

[ginobli2311]

Pippen
Rodman
Jordan
Payton
Hakeem
Wilt
Russell
Ben Wallace
Mutumbo
KAJ

There's ten guys better than him.

Now please go to bed.

i would not rank hakeem, payton, rodman, ben wallace, or mutumbo over KG overall on defense. well....maybe hakeem....but he wasn't a great defensive general like KG. hakeem put up great stats....but he also gambled a ton on defense.

[tpols]

i would not rank hakeem, payton, rodman, ben wallace, or mutumbo over KG overall on defense.
Then you're a total dumbass... oh wait that's already been established on this forum.

KG oveer Hakeem?! Goddamn man... just wow, seriously man leave now because you'll get destroyed on this one.

[Bladers]

what is wrong with that statement....in many of the games pippen and his team were so bad that he had to take some terrible shots.

after watching the series again.....i realized even more so that this was true. that is why he shot so poorly....it was great defense at times.

i was not talking about volume dude. everything is not always about volume. jordan took quite a few shots he normally would not take. jordan also tried to make a lot of plays he normally would not.

what i meant was that a larger percentage of jordan's shots were tougher than normal due to the defense and due to the fact that pippen was non existent most of the series. harper was hurt as well....thus putting more pressure on jordan to score and create. one of jordan's key aspects in his game against good defenses has always been shot selection and creating for his teammates. this series was really tougher than most because his team was struggling big time....kerr was in a terrible shooting slump.....and because payton could actually guard him one on one.

therefore jordan had to take a lot of shots he normally would not take. again...that statement is true and has nothing to do with volume.

i brought up kobe's volume because its even more absurd that kobe was taking so many shots when he was missing so often and his teammates were not struggling the way that jordan's were.

ok.

First, You defend Jordan for his 42% shooting, then smash Kobe for his 41% shooting???
Makes no sense... But dude, this is your trademark.
When Lebron played like trash, game 4,5, and 6.
You defended Lebron and then turned around and smashed Kobe when he had nothing to do with it. Infact you brought up foolish excuses for Lebron, You blamed his elbow, his personal life and so on...

Second, Do you really want me to go dig out the wide-open shot stats of Kobe's teammates?

[ginobli2311]

First, You defend Jordan, then smash Kobe...
Dude this is your trademark.
When Lebron played like trash, game 4,5, and 6.
You defend Lebron and then turn around and smash Kobe when he had nothing to do with it.
Infact you brought up foolish excuses with Lebron, You blamed his shoulder, his personal life and so on...

Second, Do you really want me to go dig out the wide-open shot stats of Kobe's teammates?

how is that defending jordan? its stating a fact. his team played worse overall around him in that series than kobe's did. thats a fact.

but that is not what this thread is about. its about the sonics vs the celtics. and i have won that debate very clearly.

[tpols]

I didn't mean to give that impression, but my point stands. Kobe's manner of play allows the defense to dictate the game to him. It sorta plays right into a team like Boston's hands. And it's not just that one play -- similar (but not as egregious) examples could be seen in every game of the series when Kobe tried to post up. Many/most times he would get the ball in the post, and instead of executing a quick move, he would wait...and wait...and wait...until Boston aligned their defense perfectly to stop any possible avenue of attack, and then he would eventually be doubled/shaded, and pass out of the post. It's just dumb basketball. It wasn't by design either, as would be the case if you had guys in motion, where you're taking the double team on purpose to find cutters or open shooters cross-court. It was totally stagnant, and he just waited and waited time and time again.

The speed with which he reads defenses and defenders' movements is, imo, the biggest difference between him and Jordan, and against quality defensive teams that can make a world of difference, because instead of keeping the defense on their heels, you're allowing the defense to make YOU react.

LOL @ tpols, who doesn't think that KG is an all-time level defender. :oldlol: KG has made 8 defensine first teams and 2 defensive second teams, and also won a DPOY. He is, without question, an all-time level defender. Comparing his defensive ability or impact to Tony Allen (who? Exactly) is a joke, and you should be laughed off the site for doing so. As a thought exercise, here are the only 6'10"+ defenders in history who are better than KG:

Wilt
Russell
DRob
Hakeem
Duncan
possibly Mutombo
possibly young KAJ
possibly Shaq (based on defensive impact)

That's it. And even many of these players (Mutombo/Duncan/Wilt) don't have nearly the defensive versatility of KG. Regardless, KG is a top 10 big man defender of all time in terms of defensive impact.
calm down man. If you read within the context of what I was saying I was referencing that the 2010 KG post defender and the 2010 tony allen on the perimeter both played great D for this series against the lakers (tony allen was playing shut down D on the lakers best player). I wasn't comparing careers or primes...

[ginobli2311]

Then you're a total dumbass... oh wait that's already been established on this forum.

KG oveer Hakeem?! Goddamn man... just wow, seriously man leave now because you'll get destroyed on this one.

read the rest of my post. and dude.....you obviously have no idea what good defense is. you made that painfully clear in your post about KG.

sorry dude. hakeem put up great defensive stats...but he also gambled a lot to get them and he was not nearly as versatile as KG.

[tpols]

how is that defending jordan? its stating a fact. his team played worse overall around him in that series than kobe's did. thats a fact.

but that is not what this thread is about. its about the sonics vs the celtics. and i have won that debate very clearly.
Whatever makes you sleep at night buddy:lol

[ginobli2311]

calm down man. If you read within the context of what I was saying I was referencing that the 2010 KG post defender and the 2010 tony allen on the perimeter both played great D for this series against the lakers (tony allen was playing shut down D on the lakers best player). I wasn't comparing careers or primes...
nope.....you posted this

Originally Posted by tpols
lol KG an ALL TIME BEST DEFENDER?! Do you really believe that? KG has a great offensive game (great shot, great post moves, explosive finisher) but to say he's an all time great defender is just asinine.

[ginobli2311]

Whatever makes you sleep at night buddy:lol

owned

[tpols]

owned
whatever makes you sleep at night buddy.:lol

[Bladers]

how is that defending jordan? its stating a fact. his team played worse overall around him in that series than kobe's did. thats a fact.

but that is not what this thread is about. its about the sonics vs the celtics. and i have won that debate very clearly.

I will try and repeat again, I edited my post and you did not see it.

You defend Jordan for his 42% shooting, then smash Kobe for his 41% shooting? That makes no sense dude, but like i said. You have a trackrecord for doing that. When Lebron played like trash, game 4,5, and 6. You fervently defended him, you even started accusing Kobe for his OKC series, when that had nothing to do with Lebron. You even went to great length to fabricate excuses for Lebron, You blamed his elbow, his personal life and so on...

Its on record, and I can quote you on what you said, but though Lebron has nothing to do with this, the fact still remains that you have done this time and time again. And like i pointed out in your first post, You defend Jordan's poor performance and crucified Kobe for his. Its really hard to even listen to someone who has double standards. And this is why i try not to get into a heavy debate with you. Because "from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh" Jesus said. In your heart, you really have something against Kobe, so every thing you say will go through that filter.

Chris,

[ginobli2311]

I will try and repeat again, I edited my post and you did not see it.

You defend Jordan for his 42% shooting, then smash Kobe for his 41% shooting? That makes no sense dude, but like i said. You have a trackrecord for doing that. When Lebron played like trash, game 4,5, and 6. You fervently defended him, you even started accusing Kobe for his OKC series, when that had nothing to do with Lebron. You even went to great length to fabricate excuses for Lebron, You blamed his elbow, his personal life and so on...

Its on record, and I can quote you on what you said, but though Lebron has nothing to do with this, the fact still remains that you have done this time and time again. And like i pointed out in your first post, You defend Jordan's poor performance and crucified Kobe for his. Its really hard to even listen to someone who has double standards. And this is why i try not to get into a heavy debate with you. Because "from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh" Jesus said. In your heart, you really have something against Kobe, so every thing you say will go through that filter.

Chris,


i have time and time again said that my main problem with kobe was his shot selection in the series and his refusal to play team ball.

you call me a hater....i call you a homer. its on record that you are a kobe homer and refuse to acknowledge his dreadful play in the finals.

i defended jordan because the bulls offense is almost entirely dependent on him. that is not true for kobe and the lakers....sorry....its not. and also....i never said jordan played a great series....in fact, he played his worst finals ever. i just think in context his play was much better than kobe's. why? because he had to go against payton and a better defense in the sonics overall....and his teammates were really really struggling compared to kobe's.

we can debate whatever you want.

[DwightHowardMVP]

LOL @ Jordan Homers trying to rewrite history.

PAyton only guarded Jordan the last 2 games.


Jordan was getting shut down by Detlef Schrempf :roll:

A 6'8 white boy. Kobe would give him 40 on a bad night smh

[ginobli2311]

LOL @ Jordan Homers trying to rewrite history.

PAyton only guarded Jordan the last 2 games.


Jordan was getting shut down by Detlef Schrempf :roll:

A 6'8 white boy. Kobe would give him 40 on a bad night smh
false. payton and hawkins played him from game 3 on.

[DwightHowardMVP]

false. payton and hawkins played him from game 3 on.

Game 4 try again. ANything else you would like to change about the series?


Mr.Schrempf :roll: What Kobe would do to him today lmao

[Bladers]

you call me a hater....i call you a homer. its on record that you are a kobe homer and refuse to acknowledge his dreadful play in the finals.


Here comes the accusations, I was waiting for it.:lol
Always arrives in crucial frustration moments..
Do you have me on record defending Kobe finals performance?
I would love it if you could quote me on that.
But i will go out of my way to give you something to put on the record, Kobe had a horrible finals performance in game 3 and 7. HORRIBLE.
I can say that because i'm not a Kobe homer, I state the facts.




i defended jordan because the bulls offense is almost entirely dependent on him.

Now this is where it gets tricky, this is where your hypocrisy kicks in.
Here is the reason your a kobe hater, now i will take you back to your first post, because i believe the first post someone makes defines what they were actually trying to express


jordan played well to shoot 42%(actually 41%). also....the rest of the bulls were awful for most of that series....jordan had to take a lot of forced shots that he normally wouldn't have taken. basically the exact opposite of kobe

you see how you bend the facts towards your liking.
Like i said, you have a filter in your heart and the facts go through those filter. You praise Jordan for shooting 41% and blamed the rest of his team.
Then you condemned Kobe for shooting 40% but you praise the rest of his team? not taking into account how BAD his team shot the ball? or how many forced/bail out shots he had to take?

This is just ludicrous, you see how you bend the facts and use it to your liken?
Even while Kobe was playing excellent after the jazz and suns series, you were still condemning Kobe.

These are the things indianguy and ashbelly don't even do. When Lebron played Horrible they called him out, but you tried to bail him out and hide him. :applause:

[ginobli2311]

Here comes the accusations, I was waiting for it.:lol
Always arrives in crucial frustration moments..
Do you have me on record defending Kobe finals performance?
I would love it if you could quote me on that.
But i will go out of my way to give you something to put on the record, Kobe had a horrible finals performance in game 3 and 7. HORRIBLE.
I can say that because i'm not a Kobe homer, I state the facts.





Now this is where it gets tricky, this is where your hypocrisy kicks in.
Here is the reason your a kobe hater, now i take you back to your first post, because i believe the first post someone makes defines what they were actually trying to express



you see how you bend the facts towards your liking.
Like i said, you have a filter in your heart and the facts go through those filter. You praise Jordan for shooting 41% and blamed the rest of his team.
Then you condemned Kobe for shooting 40% but you praise the rest of his team? not taking into account how BAD his team shot the ball?

This is just ludicrous, you see how you bend the facts?
Even while Kobe was playing excellent after the jazz and suns series, you were still condemning Kobe.

You bend the facts to your like, these are the things indianguy and ashbelly don't even do. When Lebron played Horrible they called him out, but you tried to bail him out and hide him. :applause:


the bolded part is a joke. if have time and time again said that kobe's shooting percentage would have been fine it he was taking shots within the offense. but thats the point. his shooting percentage was low because HE was taking around 4 or 5 terrible shots a game. its that simple. check all my posts about kobe in the finals. i always said that....i also always said that his 4th qtr play was another huge reason why i thought he played a poor series.

again......jordan was taking less shots and almost all of them were within the offense. did you watch the 96 finals dude? pippen was hurt and playing terrible. kerr was in a horrid shooting slump. and the bulls relied on jordan for offense more than the lakers rely on kobe. the lakers have too many other players than can get their own shot for kobe to be jacking up 23 shots a game on low efficiency.

how many times do i have to say the following " its a testament to kobe's greatness that he was able to make 41% of his shots in the series"....but is was kobe's poor decision making, shot jacking, refusal to attack/create, and poor 4th qtr play. sorry dude....you aren't putting any of my comments in the proper context. i have always maintained kobe's poor play was not only about his shooting percentage.

[alexandreben]

LOL @ Jordan Homers trying to rewrite history.

PAyton only guarded Jordan the last 2 games.


Jordan was getting shut down by Detlef Schrempf :roll:

A 6'8 white boy. Kobe would give him 40 on a bad night smh
:no:

[TheAnchorman]

2010 celtics def was better than 1996 sonics by far. yes it is debateable, but the team defense that I saw this year by the celtics, was a overall better than that of the 1996 sonics. yes, the sonics had the DPOY but their defensive scheme of trapping and heavy pressure, while different and exciting, can easily be exploited by a very well-structured, well-run offense. This offense was the triangle, and with pippen as the point forward the 2010 celtics style of defense would have fared better than the sonics.

2010 celtics > 1996 sonics defense
2008 celtics >>>> 1996 sonics

[chopchop20]

yea. i definitely think that as well given the matchup.

but playing that hypothetical is really really tough. also....the sonics swept the rockets. hakeem played well.....but did not dominate the series. hakeem in 96 was better than gasol is currently. they also forced drexler into pretty terrible play.

no doubt the size of the lakers would have given the sonics problems.....but like i said. if they could limit hakeem....they could do even better on gasol. as for kobe......a prime payton would have had him shooting close to 35% for the series.

regardless....that is why its much better to use hard data and evidence than to use hypothetical matchups. for example....i agree that the lakers on paper should be better than the bulls were offensively....but the fact remains that they weren't....in fact, they were not even close.

a prime payton would have had him shooting close to 35% for the series.
I doubt prime GP could do that because he lacks the length and the strength -- same thing that did him in against MJ

if they could limit hakeem....they could do even better on gasol
Hakeem did not have Kobe Bryant on the perimeter

but the fact remains that they weren't....in fact, they were not even close
Not a fact but you're entitled to your opinion

[Tez62]

I didn't go through the 15 pages, but since I read quite a few times on the 1st page that the early Knicks and Pistons were better than Seattle, here are some videos of the Knicks and Pistons and you can clearly see that their defense was nowhere near the level of the Celtics - particularly the Pistons. Their rotations are much worse than Boston. It's not even close really


Pistons vs. MJ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLv2F33snCE

Knicks vs. MJ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K-qGWkiKvQ

Kobe vs. Boston

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR74mWiXg1s

[tpols]

the bolded part is a joke. if have time and time again said that kobe's shooting percentage would have been fine it he was taking shots within the offense. but thats the point. his shooting percentage was low because HE was taking around 4 or 5 terrible shots a game. its that simple. check all my posts about kobe in the finals. i always said that....i also always said that his 4th qtr play was another huge reason why i thought he played a poor series.

again......jordan was taking less shots and almost all of them were within the offense. did you watch the 96 finals dude? pippen was hurt and playing terrible. kerr was in a horrid shooting slump. and the bulls relied on jordan for offense more than the lakers rely on kobe. the lakers have too many other players than can get their own shot for kobe to be jacking up 23 shots a game on low efficiency.

how many times do i have to say the following " its a testament to kobe's greatness that he was able to make 41% of his shots in the series"....but is was kobe's poor decision making, shot jacking, refusal to attack/create, and poor 4th qtr play. sorry dude....you aren't putting any of my comments in the proper context. i have always maintained kobe's poor play was not only about his shooting percentage.
Okay so let me summarize your points:
1. Jordan shot the same percentage but his shots were more meaningful, or within the offense, meaning he was just missing and not chucking.
2. Pippen was hurt, and the team was in a shooting slump.
3. Given the points at 1. and 2. it is okay that jordan took the amount of shots he did per game because his team needed him to do it.

Alright, so I have a few questions for you now:
Do you think jordan took any "dumb" shots in the whole series?
Were kobe's teammates not in shooting slumps as well?
Was kobe himself and their starting center andew bynum not hampered with nagging injuries throughout the playoffs?

[ginobli2311]

Okay so let me summarize your points:
1. Jordan shot the same percentage but his shots were more meaningful, or within the offense, meaning he was just missing and not chucking.
2. Pippen was hurt, and the team was in a shooting slump.
3. Given the points at 1. and 2. it is okay that jordan took the amount of shots he did per game because his team needed him to do it.

Alright, so I have a few questions for you now:
Do you think jordan took any "dumb" shots in the whole series?
Were kobe's teammates not in shooting slumps as well?
Was kobe himself and their starting center andew bynum not hampered with nagging injuries throughout the playoffs?

yes....jordan took some dumb shots
no.....kobe's teammates were not struggling at the level of jordan's. point in case gasol.....who had a legit case to be mvp of the series. no player on the bulls could even be considered to be playing well
lol comparing bynum to pippen in terms of importance to the team

you missed the point again. my main problem with kobe is that he did not run the offense nor did he allow the lakers to play the team ball they were so good at. i don't care if kobe was shooting 30%....if he was moving the ball and creating for his teammates. he did neither for the majority of the series.

[ginobli2311]

a prime payton would have had him shooting close to 35% for the series.
I doubt prime GP could do that because he lacks the length and the strength -- same thing that did him in against MJ

if they could limit hakeem....they could do even better on gasol
Hakeem did not have Kobe Bryant on the perimeter

but the fact remains that they weren't....in fact, they were not even close
Not a fact but you're entitled to your opinion

If ray allen and tony allen could limit him that much it stands to reason that payton would do much better. payton was tough and very strong....he would not get abused in the post by kobe at all.

hakeem had drexler and a team with horry, kenny smith, elie....coming off back to back titles. sorry....if the sonics could sweep that rockets team and hold hakeem to worse numbers than his regular season and make drexler look terrible....it stands to reason they could easily limit gasol

how is it an opinion? one team scores more points per 100 possessions than the other. if it was close i would understand.....but the bulls offensive rating was much better than the lakers. so the bulls score 7 more points per 100 possessions and they aren't better. why? how is that an opinion?

[tpols]

yes....jordan took some dumb shots
no.....kobe's teammates were not struggling at the level of jordan's. point in case gasol.....who had a legit case to be mvp of the series. no player on the bulls could even be considered to be playing well
lol comparing bynum to pippen in terms of importance to the team

you missed the point again. my main problem with kobe is that he did not run the offense nor did he allow the lakers to play the team ball they were so good at. i don't care if kobe was shooting 30%....if he was moving the ball and creating for his teammates. he did neither for the majority of the series.
I'll admit there were stretches in games where kobe would try to hit his almost patented fadeaways from range while being double teamed and would disrupt the flow of the offense. You're making it sound like he was doing the shit the whole game though.

Kobe, save game 7's first half and stretches in game 3, ran the offense quite smoothly.

Think about it. Kobe was on the floor getting touches for 90% of his team's possessions and his team won the series. If he was as bad at running the offense as you say he was his team would've gotten swept.

And how can you even say gasol didn't enter sleep mode on the road in some crucial games going 5-12 in a pivotal game 5, and 16 for 36 on the road in total. Artest was 7 for 23 on the road as well.

Now the laker's arguably two most important players besides kobe going a combined 23 for 59 on the road, and 7 for 21 in game 5 and that isn't a shooting slump?

[tpols]

If ray allen and tony allen could limit him that much it stands to reason that payton would do much better. payton was tough and very strong....he would not get abused in the post by kobe at all.

hakeem had drexler and a team with horry, kenny smith, elie....coming off back to back titles. sorry....if the sonics could sweep that rockets team and hold hakeem to worse numbers than his regular season and make drexler look terrible....it stands to reason they could easily limit gasol

how is it an opinion? one team scores more points per 100 possessions than the other. if it was close i would understand.....but the bulls offensive rating was much better than the lakers. so the bulls score 7 more points per 100 possessions and they aren't better. why? how is that an opinion?
:roll: at the bolded part. Infallible logic.

You can pretty much throw offensive and defensive ratings from the season out the window come finals time when you're dealing with great defensive teams. Ratings don't paint the picture. Try watching the games.

You can say all you want about ratings but Boston's TEAM defense was without a doubt better than the sonic's. Their rotations were near perfect and they had better big men guarding the basket (one being kg who is, as you said "top ten defenders all time" lol).

[amfirst]

If ray allen and tony allen could limit him that much it stands to reason that payton would do much better. payton was tough and very strong....he would not get abused in the post by kobe at all.

hakeem had drexler and a team with horry, kenny smith, elie....coming off back to back titles. sorry....if the sonics could sweep that rockets team and hold hakeem to worse numbers than his regular season and make drexler look terrible....it stands to reason they could easily limit gasol

how is it an opinion? one team scores more points per 100 possessions than the other. if it was close i would understand.....but the bulls offensive rating was much better than the lakers. so the bulls score 7 more points per 100 possessions and they aren't better. why? how is that an opinion?

IF Payton was so good. How do you explain why he gave MJ so much space to operate. Also, why did MJ get a good look at the rim so often. :confusedshrug:

[ginobli2311]

:roll: at the bolded part. Infallible logic.

You can pretty much throw offensive and defensive ratings from the season out the window come finals time when you're dealing with great defensive teams. Ratings don't paint the picture. Try watching the games.

You can say all you want about ratings but Boston's TEAM defense was without a doubt better than the sonic's. Their rotations were near perfect and they had better big men guarding the basket (one being kg who is, as you said "top ten defenders all time" lol).

so I see. nothing matters other than your opinion. throw out all the data and evidence. ignore the fact that wade torched them. ignore the lakers middle of the road offense all year. ignore kobe's history of struggling in the finals. ignore what the sonics did to jordan and the best offensive team in the league. ignore what the sonics did to hakeem/drexler and the rockets. just ignore it all and focus on your opinion.

makes sense. why even study history or stats or numbers....its all about just watching the game and forming an opinion with nothing to back it up. how easy it is to debate.

good work dude. you think it and you are right....you have nothing to back it up other than your own thoughts.....well done. i can't argue with that.

[ginobli2311]

IF Payton was so good. How do you explain why he gave MJ so much space to operate. Also, why did MJ get a good look at the rim so often. :confusedshrug:

maybe because he's ****ing michael jordan and is almost impossible to stop. just a thought.

the main flaw in all of these pro celtic arguments is that you are equating
kobe (a 41% shooter in the finals) to jordan (a 48% career shooter in the finals)

stopping jordan is much harder than stopping kobe. if you would realize that you would understand why the sonics defense seems to be highly under-rated on here.

so i still don't get it. the bulls offense was much more efficient than the lakers offense. the bulls did not struggle to score like the lakers did at times in the playoffs and throughout the year. yet when the bulls struggle and the greatest perimeter player ever struggles.....it has nothing to do with defense. but when the lakers play slightly worse than average offensively and kobe plays just like he always does in the finals.....it is all about great defense. it literally makes no sense.

i have already pointed out why using the previous playoff numbers for the lakers is so flawed because they played 6 games against a terrible defensive team in the suns and both the thunder and jazz are slightly above average.

[tpols]

so I see. nothing matters other than your opinion. throw out all the data and evidence. ignore the fact that wade torched them. ignore the lakers middle of the road offense all year. ignore kobe's history of struggling in the finals. ignore what the sonics did to jordan and the best offensive team in the league. ignore what the sonics did to hakeem/drexler and the rockets. just ignore it all and focus on your opinion.

makes sense. why even study history or stats or numbers....its all about just watching the game and forming an opinion with nothing to back it up. how easy it is to debate.

good work dude. you think it and you are right....you have nothing to back it up other than your own thoughts.....well done. i can't argue with that.
you convientely ignored my last paragraph which stated the difference between the sonics D and the celtics D.:oldlol:

[amfirst]

maybe because he's ****ing michael jordan and is almost impossible to stop. just a thought.

the main flaw in all of these pro celtic arguments is that you are equating
kobe (a 41% shooter in the finals) to jordan (a 48% career shooter in the finals)

stopping jordan is much harder than stopping kobe. if you would realize that you would understand why the sonics defense seems to be highly under-rated on here.

Ok, I'll let u slide on that one. However, why were their rotation so slow or late? MJ would already be in the paint before they rotate. Celtics help defense is already set up before the superstar attacks.

[tpols]

Originally Posted by ginobli2311
yes....jordan took some dumb shots
no.....kobe's teammates were not struggling at the level of jordan's. point in case gasol.....who had a legit case to be mvp of the series. no player on the bulls could even be considered to be playing well
lol comparing bynum to pippen in terms of importance to the team

you missed the point again. my main problem with kobe is that he did not run the offense nor did he allow the lakers to play the team ball they were so good at. i don't care if kobe was shooting 30%....if he was moving the ball and creating for his teammates. he did neither for the majority of the series.

I'll admit there were stretches in games where kobe would try to hit his almost patented fadeaways from range while being double teamed and would disrupt the flow of the offense. You're making it sound like he was doing the shit the whole game though.

Kobe, save game 7's first half and stretches in game 3, ran the offense quite smoothly.

Think about it. Kobe was on the floor getting touches for 90% of his team's possessions and his team won the series. If he was as bad at running the offense as you say he was his team would've gotten swept.

And how can you even say gasol didn't enter sleep mode on the road in some crucial games going 5-12 in a pivotal game 5, and 16 for 36 on the road in total. Artest was 7 for 23 on the road as well.

Now the laker's arguably two most important players besides kobe going a combined 23 for 59 on the road, and 7 for 21 in game 5 and that isn't a shooting slump?
Can you explain to me how jordan's teammates were doing worse?

[ginobli2311]

you convientely ignored my last paragraph which stated the difference between the sonics D and the celtics D.:oldlol:

so that had near perfect rotations and great big men guarding the basket. yet wade was able to shred them. and yet the sonics had a better defensive rating. so if they were so great....why did they allow more points per 100 possessions than the sonics did? why was wade able to shred them?

[tpols]

so that had near perfect rotations and great big men guarding the basket. yet wade was able to shred them. and yet the sonics had a better defensive rating. so if they were so great....why did they allow more points per 100 possessions than the sonics did? why was wade able to shred them?
Wade shredded them in the first round of the playoffs... we're talking finals here buddy... again, apples and oranges...

As for the second part, defense has changed considerably since than. It is known that the hand checking rule being taken out inflated stats slightly, so that could account for the point or two difference in points per 100 possessions.

[TheAnchorman]

so that had near perfect rotations and great big men guarding the basket. yet wade was able to shred them. and yet the sonics had a better defensive rating. so if they were so great....why did they allow more points per 100 possessions than the sonics did? why was wade able to shred them?
Easy:

1.) Injuries. Everyone on ISH should know that the Boston Celtics were never in top form for most of the regular season, as seen by the prevalent belief here that Boston's season was over before the playoffs started. So in essence discard defensive rating. Discard stats. Watch. The. Games.
2.) Because Wade got hot at the right time. You better have watched the games. A great portion of his points were 3-point shots and mid-ranged bombs.

You always bring up Wade, yet you ignore Lebron and Howard. Why don't you try to downplay the Celtics defense on both of them? Then you downplay their defense on Kobe by saying Kobe made dumb decisions when in fact he had to carry his teammates on many occasions. I've seen a lot of this thread and you always make it more of a Kobe v. Jordan comparison than a Celtics v. Sonics comparison, which is what this thread is supposed to be about. This is the Finals we are talking about too, not Wade.

[tpols]

Easy:

1.) Injuries. Everyone on ISH should know that the Boston Celtics were never in top form for most of the regular season, as seen by the prevalent belief here that Boston's season was over before the playoffs started. So in essence discard defensive rating. Discard stats. Watch. The. Games.
2.) Because Wade got hot at the right time. You better have watched the games. A great portion of his points were 3-point shots and mid-ranged bombs.

You always bring up Wade, yet you ignore Lebron and Howard. Why don't you try to downplay the Celtics defense on both of them? Then you downplay their defense on Kobe by saying Kobe made dumb decisions when in fact he had to carry his teammates on many occasions. I've seen a lot of this thread and you always make it more of a Kobe v. Jordan comparison than a Celtics v. Sonics comparison, which is what this thread is supposed to be about.
He's a under the radar kobe hater.

[ginobli2311]

Originally Posted by ginobli2311
yes....jordan took some dumb shots
no.....kobe's teammates were not struggling at the level of jordan's. point in case gasol.....who had a legit case to be mvp of the series. no player on the bulls could even be considered to be playing well
lol comparing bynum to pippen in terms of importance to the team

you missed the point again. my main problem with kobe is that he did not run the offense nor did he allow the lakers to play the team ball they were so good at. i don't care if kobe was shooting 30%....if he was moving the ball and creating for his teammates. he did neither for the majority of the series.

I'll admit there were stretches in games where kobe would try to hit his almost patented fadeaways from range while being double teamed and would disrupt the flow of the offense. You're making it sound like he was doing the shit the whole game though.

Kobe, save game 7's first half and stretches in game 3, ran the offense quite smoothly.

Think about it. Kobe was on the floor getting touches for 90% of his team's possessions and his team won the series. If he was as bad at running the offense as you say he was his team would've gotten swept.

And how can you even say gasol didn't enter sleep mode on the road in some crucial games going 5-12 in a pivotal game 5, and 16 for 36 on the road in total. Artest was 7 for 23 on the road as well.

Now the laker's arguably two most important players besides kobe going a combined 23 for 59 on the road, and 7 for 21 in game 5 and that isn't a shooting slump?
Can you explain to me how jordan's teammates were doing worse?


ok.....nobody said gasol was perfect. and nobody said all the rest of the lakers were playing great. but don't act like kobe wasn't taking around 3 to 5 terrible shots outside the offense per game. he was doing this a lot in the series.

but yes jordan's teammates were actually playing worse. some numbers for you:

pippen:
5 of 15
5 of 14
4 of 17
5 of 20
7 of 17

try comparing gasol's series to pippen's. its laughable how much better gasol was. gasol was dominating the boards and protecting the rim as well.

harper was injured and was a non factor.
kukoc shot around 39% and 30% from the three point line.
kerr shot 30% for the series
longley played pretty good actually.

and that is about it. the bulls were not a very deep team and did not have a ton of offensive fire power outside of jordan/pippen.....that is why pippen's struggles really killed the bulls. imagine the lakers trying to beat boston with gasol struggling as much as pippen....and the lakers were a far deeper team at that.

you see the difference. did a player on the bulls outside of jordan ever step up in the 4th qtr of a game the way derek fisher did? nope. you see the difference?

[ginobli2311]

Easy:

1.) Injuries. Everyone on ISH should know that the Boston Celtics were never in top form for most of the regular season, as seen by the prevalent belief here that Boston's season was over before the playoffs started. So in essence discard defensive rating. Discard stats. Watch. The. Games.
2.) Because Wade got hot at the right time. You better have watched the games. A great portion of his points were 3-point shots and mid-ranged bombs.

You always bring up Wade, yet you ignore Lebron and Howard. Why don't you try to downplay the Celtics defense on both of them? Then you downplay their defense on Kobe by saying Kobe made dumb decisions when in fact he had to carry his teammates on many occasions. I've seen a lot of this thread and you always make it more of a Kobe v. Jordan comparison than a Celtics v. Sonics comparison, which is what this thread is supposed to be about. This is the Finals we are talking about too, not Wade.

i've actually been trying to post about the finals.

sonics were playing the 96 bulls in the finals. the 96 bulls were a much better offensive team than 10 lakers. the sonics held that same great offensive 96 bulls teams to terrible overall numbers for the series....which include holding Jordan to his worst finals ever. the 96 sonics had the DPOY in Payton in his prime....who would easily have been the best defensive player on the court between the sonics and celtics.

the celtics were playing the 10 lakers. the 10 lakers were a team that struggled offensively throughout the year and struggled against good defensive teams as well. the celtics played good defense....but did not hold the lakers as a team to the kind of poor efficiency levels that the sonics did to the bulls. also.....kobe played exactly like he always has in the finlas. 41% shooting. so its hard to credit a defense when a player puts up his normal numbers.

its that simple. to top it off....the sonics had the better defensive rating all year long. so it just dont' see it.....the only argument is that the celtics looked better......which i agree with. but they were actually not better......or you can use the argument "the bulls just played bad".

[tpols]

ok.....nobody said gasol was perfect. and nobody said all the rest of the lakers were playing great. but don't act like kobe wasn't taking around 3 to 5 terrible shots outside the offense per game. he was doing this a lot in the series.

but yes jordan's teammates were actually playing worse. some numbers for you:

pippen:
5 of 15
5 of 14
4 of 17
5 of 20
7 of 17

try comparing gasol's series to pippen's. its laughable how much better gasol was. gasol was dominating the boards and protecting the rim as well.

harper was injured and was a non factor.
kukoc shot around 39% and 30% from the three point line.
kerr shot 30% for the series
longley played pretty good actually.

and that is about it. the bulls were not a very deep team and did not have a ton of offensive fire power outside of jordan/pippen.....that is why pippen's struggles really killed the bulls. imagine the lakers trying to beat boston with gasol struggling as much as pippen....and the lakers were a far deeper team at that.

you see the difference. did a player on the bulls outside of jordan ever step up in the 4th qtr of a game the way derek fisher did? nope. you see the difference?
Fisher happened one game lol. And the nights pippen was off you had guys like ron harper going 7-10 and and longley going 5-6. Guys always stepped up when they had to. (jordan went 17-41 in the two games the bulls lost)

And lol at your boy jordan going 5-19 in the closeout game of the series. I'd say his teammates carried him there and if you don't agree with that in your next post... then, shit, I'm just done.

[ginobli2311]

Fisher happened one game lol. And the nights pippen was off you had guys like ron harper going 7-10 and and longley going 5-6. Guys always stepped up when they had to. (jordan went 17-41 in the two games the bulls lost)

And lol at your boy jordan going 5-19 in the closeout game of the series. I'd say his teammates carried him there and if you don't agree with that in your next post... then, shit, I'm just done.

jordan's teammates definitely carried him in game 6. not even a debate. but you can't just ignore everything. pippen was much worse than gasol overall. harper played 115 minutes in the series and shot 38%...hardly a big factor in the series at all.
kerr was ice cold all series
kukoc struggled. and like i said...the bulls were not deep. they go really only 7 deep and with pippen and kerr playing terrible and harper out.....that leaves only jordan and kukoc as legit offensive options. kukoc really struggled after the first 2 games as well.

its night and day different.

you think artest was terrible...but he ended up shooting 36% for the series and 34% from the three point line while limiting paul pierce throughout. you think artest might have been a little more valuable than kerr?

[tpols]

jordan's teammates definitely carried him in game 6. not even a debate. but you can't just ignore everything. pippen was much worse than gasol overall. harper played 115 minutes in the series and shot 38%...hardly a big factor in the series at all.
kerr was ice cold all series
kukoc struggled. and like i said...the bulls were not deep. they go really only 7 deep and with pippen and kerr playing terrible and harper out.....that leaves only jordan and kukoc as legit offensive options. kukoc really struggled after the first 2 games as well.

its night and day different.
It's not different at all man. You're basically saying that because jordan didn't have a "Pau Gasol" to rely on all of his numbers are justifiable but kobes are not. But that just doesn't make any sense because, while Gasol was putting up efficient numbers, he wasn't taking over games, leaving kobe to do it just like jordan had to.

The only thing that makes it different to you is that you have an inherent bias towards defending michael jordan.

[TheAnchorman]

i've actually been trying to post about the finals.

sonics were playing the 96 bulls in the finals. the 96 bulls were a much better offensive team than 10 lakers. the sonics held that same great offensive 96 bulls teams to terrible overall numbers for the series....which include holding Jordan to his worst finals ever. the 96 sonics had the DPOY in Payton in his prime....who would easily have been the best defensive player on the court between the sonics and celtics.

the celtics were playing the 10 lakers. the 10 lakers were a team that struggled offensively throughout the year and struggled against good defensive teams as well. the celtics played good defense....but did not hold the lakers as a team to the kind of poor efficiency levels that the sonics did to the bulls. also.....kobe played exactly like he always has in the finlas. 41% shooting. so its hard to credit a defense when a player puts up his normal numbers.

its that simple. to top it off....the sonics had the better defensive rating all year long. so it just dont' see it.....the only argument is that the celtics looked better......which i agree with. but they were actually not better......or you can use the argument "the bulls just played bad".
You just said you were talking about the finals....

As for the argument "the bulls played bad", of course they played bad. Michael missed shots. Yet you are making the argument that he played in the flow of the offense? This is MICHAEL JORDAN we are talking about; even though this is the stage that he learned to "trust his teammates", he still took a lot of dumb shots.

I have watched the 1996 nba finals on youtube in the past but and I have seen a lot of similarities with Pippen's performance that year and Artest's performance this year:
Both shot horribly. They shot horribly not because of the Sonics/celtics defense, but because they just did. In fact if the Bulls lost to the Sonics the backlash against Pippen would have been horrific. just like if the Lakers lost to the Celtics in Game 7 Artest would be scapegoated.

Frankly I think the whole Kobe/Jordan performance as a benchmark for their team defense is just ****ing stupid.
In fact the reason why I think the Celtics defense is better is their post D on gasol and odom. Gasol did not show up for basically half the series, Odom was a factor only in Game's 3 and 7. That's it. Gasol became Gasoft on the road. Odom's strength is his ability to handle the ball and drive, Celtics gave him the outside shot and prevented penetration, one of the Lakers biggest offensive assets. Why? Because Lakers do not have a consistent 3-pt threat. If you watched the 2008/2010 Celtics, you will know that they are best at rotating and defending penetrators. That is why Lebron failed. That is why Howard got neutralized. That was why Vince wasn't able to drive and dish, which was a big part of his offense with the Magic. It's not the Finals per se, but I am basically talking about how Celtics are KNOWN for their inside D.

That is what sets them apart from the Sonics. Like I said in my previous post a few pages ago, Seattle was known for trapping and double-teaming near the top of the key, as well as having Payton: NOT their inside D. It leads to a lot of easy points on the inside when the opponent plays smart offense. Unfortunately the Bulls did not have a legit post presence so they weren't able to capitalize. Hell, even Longley played above his usual standards.

tl;dr - Celtics inside D is the reason why I pick them over Seattle any day, all day.

[ginobli2311]

It's not different at all man. You're basically saying that because jordan didn't have a "Pau Gasol" to rely on all of his numbers are justifiable but kobes are not. But that just doesn't make any sense because, while Gasol was putting up efficient numbers, he wasn't taking over games, leaving kobe to do it just like jordan had to.

The only thing that makes it different to you is that you have an inherent bias towards defending michael jordan.

not at all. i also never said jordan's numbers were good or justifiable. i just said jordan's struggles were different than kobe's for a variety of reasons.

one of them being that his second option has beyond bad for the entire series and his best shooter was beyond bad for the entire series and ron harper either did not play or was pretty bad.

kobe did not have to deal with that. artest was bad....but significantly better than kerr. gasol struggled at times....but was ten times better than pippen in the series. fisher struggled at times....but was much better than harper overall in the series.

i never said jordan played well. he just played better than kobe did. he didn't jack shots and he didn't dominate the ball as much as kobe did. he actually gave his teammates more of a chance to succeed. and that combined with the fact that he had to go against payton for large stretches makes is more understandable in my mind that he struggled.

[chopchop20]

If ray allen and tony allen could limit him that much it stands to reason that payton would do much better. payton was tough and very strong....he would not get abused in the post by kobe at all.

hakeem had drexler and a team with horry, kenny smith, elie....coming off back to back titles. sorry....if the sonics could sweep that rockets team and hold hakeem to worse numbers than his regular season and make drexler look terrible....it stands to reason they could easily limit gasol

how is it an opinion? one team scores more points per 100 possessions than the other. if it was close i would understand.....but the bulls offensive rating was much better than the lakers. so the bulls score 7 more points per 100 possessions and they aren't better. why? how is that an opinion?

You bother Kobe with length and strength... and obviously help defense. Kobe most definitely could post GP up or easily shoot over the top of him. I don't think GP is stronger than Deron Williams, who got the same treatment.

Drexler, on his best day, is still no Kobe Bryant. And How are the Sonics gonna handle 2 very capable post players at the same time (Healthy Bynum)? They have less size in the paint and their paint defenders are inferior to Boston's.

If you base your argument solely on stats, there's no direct correlation because the 2 teams played in 2 different years against different competition.
Thus, it's an opinion - not a fact

[chitownsfinest]

^ True the Celtics interior D is the best I've seen since the early 00s Spurs and is better then the Sonics, but the 96 Sonics did shut down a prime Hakeem (only time he was close to being shut down from 93-96) so you can't say they didn't have interior pressure.

Overall, I would take the '10 Celtics over the 96 Sonics but I would say the 97 Heat and 92/93 Knicks were as good or arguably better then the Celtics defense.

[ginobli2311]

You just said you were talking about the finals....

As for the argument "the bulls played bad", of course they played bad. Michael missed shots. Yet you are making the argument that he played in the flow of the offense? This is MICHAEL JORDAN we are talking about; even though this is the stage that he learned to "trust his teammates", he still took a lot of dumb shots.

I have watched the 1996 nba finals on youtube in the past but and I have seen a lot of similarities with Pippen's performance that year and Artest's performance this year:
Both shot horribly. They shot horribly not because of the Sonics/celtics defense, but because they just did. In fact if the Bulls lost to the Sonics the backlash against Pippen would have been horrific. just like if the Lakers lost to the Celtics in Game 7 Artest would be scapegoated.

Frankly I think the whole Kobe/Jordan performance as a benchmark for their team defense is just ****ing stupid.
In fact the reason why I think the Celtics defense is better is their post D on gasol and odom. Gasol did not show up for basically half the series, Odom was a factor only in Game's 3 and 7. That's it. Gasol became Gasoft on the road. Odom's strength is his ability to handle the ball and drive, Celtics gave him the outside shot and prevented penetration, one of the Lakers biggest offensive assets. Why? Because Lakers do not have a consistent 3-pt threat. If you watched the 2008/2010 Celtics, you will know that they are best at rotating and defending penetrators. That is why Lebron failed. That is why Howard got neutralized. That was why Vince wasn't able to drive and dish, which was a big part of his offense with the Magic. It's not the Finals per se, but I am basically talking about how Celtics are KNOWN for their inside D.

That is what sets them apart from the Sonics. Like I said in my previous post a few pages ago, Seattle was known for trapping and double-teaming near the top of the key, as well as having Payton: NOT their inside D. It leads to a lot of easy points on the inside when the opponent plays smart offense. Unfortunately the Bulls did not have a legit post presence so they weren't able to capitalize. Hell, even Longley played above his usual standards.

tl;dr - Celtics inside D is the reason why I pick them over Seattle any day, all day.


i agree with some of that. but if the sonics weren't capable of playing good post defense then why did they sweep hakeem and the rockets and why did they limit hakeem so much?

clearly the sonics defense is stronger on the perimeter.....no argument about that.

you can't just say gasol wasn't a factor for half of the series and then just ignore the fact that the dude 19 points a game on 48% from the field and grabbed 12 boards. if the celtics were so great in the front court...how did gasol dominate the boards so much in the series? he was easily the best rebounder in the series.

my point in bringing up the sonics defensive rating was to show that they were a very good defensive team all year. it wasn't some accident dude.

the fact remains that the bulls were a far superior offensive team than the lakers. and in the both finals. the sonics held the bulls overall to worse numbers and efficiency than the celtics held the lakers.

so if we are just judging the finals. we have the bulls.....the best offensive team....struggling more. so again....this had nothing to do with the sonics?

[ginobli2311]

You bother Kobe with length and strength... and obviously help defense. Kobe most definitely could post GP up or easily shoot over the top of him. I don't think GP is stronger than Deron Williams, who got the same treatment.

Drexler, on his best day, is still no Kobe Bryant. And How are the Sonics gonna handle 2 very capable post players at the same time (Healthy Bynum)? They have less size in the paint and their paint defenders are inferior to Boston's.

If you base your argument solely on stats, there's no direct correlation because the 2 teams played in 2 different years against different competition.
Thus, it's an opinion - not a fact

the fact is that the sonics shut down hakeem. hakeem was a far greater player in 96 than gasol. of course drexler is no kobe. but kobe is no jordan. so if they could limit jordan....i'm pretty sure they would have had more success against kobe.

its not opinion at all. the sonics were better defensively during the entire season than the celtics. the bulls were better offensively during the entire season than the lakers.

the sonics held the bulls to worse numbers than the celtics held the lakers. think about that statement....because its a fact. now remember that the bulls were much better offensively than the lakers? another fact.

only argument is that the bulls just played bad....which is actually the most valid.

also....ray allen does not have length or strength....just thought i would point that out.

[tpols]

i agree with some of that. but if the sonics weren't capable of playing good post defense then why did they sweep hakeem and the rockets and why did they limit hakeem so much?

clearly the sonics defense is stronger on the perimeter.....no argument about that.

you can't just say gasol wasn't a factor for half of the series and then just ignore the fact that the dude 19 points a game on 48% from the field and grabbed 12 boards. if the celtics were so great in the front court...how did gasol dominate the boards so much in the series? he was easily the best rebounder in the series.

my point in bringing up the sonics defensive rating was to show that they were a very good defensive team all year. it wasn't some accident dude.

the fact remains that the bulls were a far superior offensive team than the lakers. and in the both finals. the sonics held the bulls overall to worse numbers and efficiency than the celtics held the lakers.

so if we are just judging the finals. we have the bulls.....the best offensive team....struggling more. so again....this had nothing to do with the sonics?
Alright so the bulls struggled in shooting the ball. Does that automatically point to the defense being great? Sometimes yes and sometimes no.

All I know is that both teams had very potent offenses and their competition was notorious for shutting down some big name teams in the past.

You can't use the chain of logic where you say, "the bulls were better offensively than the lakers and they were held to an amount farther away from their usual offensive averages, thereby meaning they faced a superior defense," because they may have struggled in that series because of matchup issues or just general shooting woes (loss of confidence).