The All-Choke Team

[Blazed22]

PG: Chauncey Billups
SG: Joe Johnson
SF: Vince Carter
PF: Dirk Nowitzki
C: Dwight Howard

Agree with the list?

[EarlTheGoat]

Since when the f*ck Billups is a choker?

[Nets fan 93]

PG: Chauncey Billups
SG: Joe Johnson
SF: Vince Carter
PF: Dirk Nowitzki
C: Dwight Howard

Agree with the list?
Fail

[brooks_thompson]

Since when the f*ck Billups is a choker?

since 2005. maybe 2006 if you're feeling generous

[w00terz]

Where is LeBron?

[EarlTheGoat]

since 2005. maybe 2006 if you're feeling generous

Oh really? Tell me why.

[brooks_thompson]

watch his playoffs

[Mr. Jabbar]

PG: Chauncey Billups
SG: Joe Johnson
SF: Vince Carter
PF: Dirk Nowitzki
C: Dwight Howard

Agree with the list?

Nice list. Lebron should be coming off the bench, he could add valuable misses from the bench.

[Nets fan 93]

Nice list. Lebron should be coming off the bench, he could add valuable misses from the bench.
along with Mo Williams and Rashard Lewis?

[TrueDiesel3]

I can't believe Mo Williams missed the list. :oldlol:

[Mr. Jabbar]

along with Mo Williams and Rashard Lewis?

Oh gawd, how could i miss those two, epic bench for that team.

[Go Getter]

Shout out to Nick Anderson.

[brooks_thompson]

Shout out to Nick Anderson.

he was more of a gag

[Go Getter]

he was more of a gag

Those were the hardest free throws to watch ever imo.


I always root for Chicago guys...this is the one time I was willing to lie and say he was from Gary, IN or something:lol

[Sarcastic]

No Ray Allen nor John Starks?

[Mr. Jabbar]

No Ray Allen nor John Starks?

Before these last Finals Ray Ray was pretty clutch me thinks...

[Sarcastic]

Before these last Finals Ray Ray was pretty clutch me thinks...


All it takes is one bad performance to go from hero to goat (not the good one).

[Birmingham1955]

John Starks should be an honorable mention. As much as people of this generation remember him way more than a talent llike Mitch Richmond.

Starks never had that much game he was a glorified role player, that was famous with beefs among the league superstars. It wasn't like he was a Steve Nash talent.

[PurpleChuck]

Jermaine O'Neal

[alwaysunny]

Beasley

REAL TALKS BRO!

[Go Getter]

Beasley

REAL TALKS BRO!


5....4.....3......2......

[Yung D-Will]

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2010/7/3/9e051d36-bb8b-4330-98df-29573dae4259.jpg

[creepingdeath]

All it takes is one bad performance to go from hero to goat (not the good one).
Well, if that is the case, then where is J. Kidd?

And if you're talking about all-time rankings, that PF spot is reserved for Karl Malone. :oldlol:

[ZHAKIDD532]

Take Chauncey off that list. That's just not cool.

[ZHAKIDD532]

Well, if that is the case, then where is J. Kidd?

And if you're talking about all-time rankings, that PF spot is reserved for Karl Malone. :oldlol:
Why would Kidd be on that list?

[creepingdeath]

Well, according to Sarcastic, it only takes one bad playoff series. Due to this year's games against SA, I guess Jason fits the requirements.

[Quata]

The choke thing has been sooooooo overplayed, all it takes it for someone to hit 1 big shot and they are forgiven for a fair few other misses because "he has made them before, that was just bad luck". Dirk is one of the most clutch mo-fos around and just because he hasn't won a ring doesn't negate that, people have off games, dirk has had about 100x more good than bad. Same goes for the majority of people who people label as "chokers".

I love how anyone who has won a ring regardless on differing situations is automatically exempt from the label.

For example:
Game winning shots:
Billups 6 for 37
Dirk 12 for 37

yet dirk is the choker? not going to bother looking it up but im almost certain he has had far more good overall games than billups as well, they have both had bad games.

***** please: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=291103006&period=4


http://tehresistance.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/602__image_091.jpg

[creepingdeath]

The choke thing has been sooooooo overplayed, all it takes it for someone to hit 1 big shot and they are forgiven for a fair few other misses because "he has made them before, that was just bad luck". Dirk is one of the most clutch mo-fos around and just because he hasn't won a ring doesn't negate that, people have off games, dirk has had about 100x more good than bad. Same goes for the majority of people who people label as "chokers".

I love how anyone who has won a ring regardless on differing situations is automatically exempt from the label.

For example:
Game winning shots:
Billups 6 for 37
Dirk 12 for 37

yet dirk is the choker? not going to bother looking it up but im almost certain he has had far more good overall games than billups as well, they have both had bad games.

just to rile up some people: Kobe (14 for 56) vs Gasol (9 for 18)

http://tehresistance.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/602__image_091.jpg

:cheers: :applause:

[SCdac]

Being successful in the long term and winning championships isn't all about hitting game-winners. Go check Dirk's game 6 against the Spurs if you want some recent examples of his game... then tell me he doesn't consistently fault under pressure, when his back and his team's back is to the wall.

The guy is 7 feet tall, 245 pounds, you know how many shots in the paint he made in game 6 against the Spurs? ..... 0 shots.... Out of 20+ shots, do you know how many were taken in the paint of that game?..... 2 shots.... This guy is supposed to be a "power forward".... In the 4th quarter of that game with under 5 minutes left, he had a 35 year old Antonio McDyess with 5 fouls guarding him a few feet in from FT line, he could have driven to the basket for a high-percentage layup or an And-1 and cut Spurs lead to 4 or 3, instead he takes an weak fade away jumper that clanks off the rim.... Spurs get the ball back, McDyess gets completely free from Dirk's "defense" on the other end, knocks down a 17 footer, Spurs stretch a 6 point lead to 8 and eventually win the game.

He's a near perfect / automatic as they come FT shooter and had an extraordinary FT streak leading up to the playoffs, yet in an elimination game he misses a FT about minute into the 4th quarter??? .... (yeah, missing a FT is easy for anybody to do, but this is Dirk we're talking, you can't talk up his efficiency without noticing when he's inefficient in pivotal moments)

Listen, I'm not saying "Dirk is a choker" based on this one game alone, but it's an example of what kind of player he is, IMO. What Dirk apologists fail to see is that under pressure, maybe not as a whole or anything close to the majority of his career, but under pressure he tends to simmer down or not step up in the way that bigs or MVP's should... Of course he is going to have game winners, he's been in the league since 2000!.... and he's had a couple opportunities at least (as the favorite) to win it all now. His Mavs, with Kidd, Butler, Haywood, etc, was supposed to be the team that finally won it, they were the #2 seed in the West, and couldn't even get out of the first....

And tell me this, how many MVP's in the history of the NBA shot 38% from the field in the first round getting knocked out by a worse team... in their MVP year?

[Tide]

Being successful in the long term and winning championships isn't all about hitting game-winners. Go check Dirk's game 6 against the Spurs if you want some recent examples of his game... then tell me he doesn't consistently fault under pressure, when his back and his team's back is to the wall.

Oh the game he scored 33 points in? Dirk did about everything he could do in that game, but he couldn't make up for the rest of his team missing open shots, Kidd not being able to guard Parker, or Carsile's shitty coaching.

[SCdac]

Oh you the game he scored 33 points in? Dirk did about everything he could do in that game, but he couldn't make up for the rest of his team missing open shots, Kidd not being able to guard Parker, or Carsile's shitty coaching.

yeah... and not a single one of them was scored in the paint... that's my point.

It's not how much you score, it's how you are scoring.

I didn't even get into the questionable fouls that Dirk committed in the first half (especially the one on Hill), in essence taking himself out of the game.

[DStebb716]

Lmao, always gonna be those LeBron "choke" people out there. His entire team plays like sh*t in the playoffs, he can't do anything about that. I will say that this passed year against the Celts he just flat out gave up.

[Calabis]

All it takes is one bad performance to go from hero to goat (not the good one).

Can't say that...because many greats would be on that list

[Tide]

Why does it matter where they are scored that doesn't have to do with anything he shot a high percentage too. Dirk didn't have anything to do with that loss there are two people you can blame Carsile and Kidd.

[TMacsOneGoodEye]

Dirk is labeled a choker by missing that FT in the finals that could have put them up 3-0 in the finals (he was a 90% FT shooter!). He allowed his team to lose the next 4 games and the series. Then the next year winning 67 games, MVP, then shooting something like 38% and losing in the first round to an 8 seed.

Dirk is pretty much the definition of a choker. Whens somoene who normally does something great (FT's, great regular seasons) fails to do it on the big stage, that's choking.

[Calabis]

Dirk is labeled a choker by missing that FT in the finals that could have put them up 3-0 in the finals (he was a 90% FT shooter!). He allowed his team to lose the next 4 games and the series. Then the next year winning 67 games, MVP, then shooting something like 38% and losing in the first round to an 8 seed.

Dirk is pretty much the definition of a choker. Whens somoene who normally does something great (FT's, great regular seasons) fails to do it on the big stage, that's choking.

I agree with this:cheers:

[G-Funk]

Lebron, "His team" was the Favorite to win for 2 straight years with HOA and found a way to lose

[SCdac]

Why does it matter where they are scored that doesn't have to do with anything he shot a high percentage too. Dirk didn't have anything to do with that loss there are two people you can blame Carsile and Kidd.

Riiiight.

And it does matter where he's scoring from... didn't you read where I said he had a perfect opportunity to come close to equalizing the score in the 4th quarter, but he decided to take a weak jump shot instead?.... driving to the basket, getting layups and dunks, staying aggressive, using your low post game against shorter players.... that is good basketball for someone of his size and talent.... I admit he's gotten alot better at it, but some times he looks allergic to doing those things.... and that is borderline choking if you ask me... (granted he didn't cost them the series entirely, but I felt he cost them that game more so than others).

[G-Funk]

Lmao, always gonna be those LeBron "choke" people out there. His entire team plays like sh*t in the playoffs, he can't do anything about that. I will say that this passed year against the Celts he just flat out gave up.


He gave his team confidence when he was dancing and doing all that shh during the season but when things got tight during the playoffs and they seen him stop doing all that, they couldn't win like that. They lost all confidence, they had to be having fun. And they were put in a unfamiliar situation

[broy]

Kevin Durant.

[TMacsOneGoodEye]

Why does it matter where they are scored that doesn't have to do with anything he shot a high percentage too. Dirk didn't have anything to do with that loss there are two people you can blame Carsile and Kidd.

I disagree here. I think Dirk is the main reason why his team struggled. That team should have beat those Spurs. They were more talented, deeper, had more momentum. They should have won.

It's difficult being a Dirk teammate because Dirk is so one-dimensional that it forces his teammates to pick up the slack for his shortcomings. Whereas other franchise players bring more than just jumpshooting, that is all that Dirk brings. Granted, he's phenomenal at that one dimension, but it makes things a lot harder on his teammates who have to play a lot harder in the post-season to make up for Dirk's lack of defense, passing, leadership and rebounding depending on if he's hanging out on the perimeter. These are issues other franchise players don't force upon their teammates since they usually bring scoring, but also some semblance of passing, rebounding, defense and leadership.

Dirk is in a tough spot where he's a franchise scorer, but not a franchise player. It's something that I don't think we've ever seen in the NBA. He's ALMOST good enough to get it done as the man of his own team, but his lack of mental toughness really prevents him from getting over that hump and coupled with his lack of diversity, it's a recipe that sometimes ends in disaster as we saw in the finals in 06 and the GS series in 07.

[PistolPete]

Where's Iverson??

[G-Funk]

BTW I luv Dwight but he did miss some FT's in a very crucial game during the Finals.

[creepingdeath]

Riiiight.

And it does matter where he's scoring from... didn't you read where I said he had a perfect opportunity to come close to equalizing the score in the 4th quarter, but he decided to take a weak jump shot instead?.... driving to the basket, getting layups and dunks, staying aggressive, using your low post game against shorter players.... that is good basketball for someone of his size and talent.... I admit he's gotten alot better at it, but some times he looks allergic to doing those things.... and that is borderline choking if you ask me... (granted he didn't cost them the series entirely, but I felt he cost them that game more so than others).
I'm sorry, but Dirk (and Beauboius) were the reason the Mavs overcame a 20+ pts deficit, Dirk scoring even scoring a clutch 3pointer that gave them the first lead of the game. But then came along Rick Carlisle, moment killer. You're right, Dirk should've driven to the basket stronger, and I was very angry at him for not doing it (especially coz he's got GREAT post moves) but that one moment doesn't mean at all that he choked. Concerning those fouls in the first half: That was pure frustration and absolutely comprehensible, because the rest of the team has been playing like sh!t, especially someone like Jason Kidd, who is supposed to be a leader and a go-to-guy, too.

Granted, Dirk did choke several times against Miami and the Warriors. But even great players have such moments. Often the difference is that a good team is supposed to step into the breach for its superstar the way that he usually does it the other way around.

And if hitting gamewinners doesn't somehow translate into clutchness, then why don't other players have a similar or better ratio than Dirk? And hasn't Dirk been in the top 3 4th quarter players the last 5 years? His choker label derives from the Miami and the Golden State series, which is totally understandable, but it's not fair towards Dirk that he's still being called a choker when the last few playoff series losses have not been his fault at all.

[broy]

BTW I luv Dwight but he did miss some FT's in a very crucial game during the Finals.

he always misses.

[raekwon]

swap Billups for Arenas

[creepingdeath]

I disagree here. I think Dirk is the main reason why his team struggled. That team should have beat those Spurs. They were more talented, deeper, had more momentum. They should have won.

It's difficult being a Dirk teammate because Dirk is so one-dimensional that it forces his teammates to pick up the slack for his shortcomings. Whereas other franchise players bring more than just jumpshooting, that is all that Dirk brings. Granted, he's phenomenal at that one dimension, but it makes things a lot harder on his teammates who have to play a lot harder in the post-season to make up for Dirk's lack of defense, passing, leadership and rebounding depending on if he's hanging out on the perimeter. These are issues other franchise players don't force upon their teammates since they usually bring scoring, but also some semblance of passing, rebounding, defense and leadership.

Dirk is in a tough spot where he's a franchise scorer, but not a franchise player. It's something that I don't think we've ever seen in the NBA. He's ALMOST good enough to get it done as the man of his own team, but his lack of mental toughness really prevents him from getting over that hump and coupled with his lack of diversity, it's a recipe that sometimes ends in disaster as we saw in the finals in 06 and the GS series in 07.
I'm sorry, but wtf? He is the MAIN REASON why his team struggled? I can see why people criticize Dirk, but now you've just exposed yourself as a blatant hater. Of course they should have won, especially with Timmy being so bad, but the Mavs lost DESPITE their depth and because apart from Dirk and maybe Butler none played to his normal standard.

You're giving Dirk's defense not enough credit. He may not be a good defender, but he's definitely okay. If you would have watched any game since 03, you would know that. Also, Dirk is a very good rebounder (he was even the team's leader in the previous season, so wtf are you talking about "picking up the slack"?) and a decent passer whilst being extremly turnover-insusceptible. Leadership? He single-handedly took over the third quarter in game 6 (okay, not single-handedly, there has been Roddy, too) and shot 95% of his free throws over the course of the series. So Kobe's always being called a great leader because of his gamewinners (although his ratio is much worse than Dirk's), but that doesn't count for Dirk. Then Kobe's shooting a rather bad percentage at the line in the finals, but that's okay. I'm sorry, but Dirk's teammates are not supposed (at least most of the team like with any other superstar) to pick up his slack, but at least play to their standards or better yet, step their games up a notch. And sorry, if you claim that the jumpshot is Dirk's only weapon in his offensive arsenal, you're either lying or dumb.

[nestea()]

Kevin Durant.

Do you know what channel basketball is on because you need to watch it.

K, Thanks.

[1~Gibson~1]

PG: Chauncey Billups
SG: Joe Johnson
SF: Vince Carter
PF: Dirk Nowitzki
C: Dwight Howard

Agree with the list?
hell ****in no!

Chauncey??
Dwight??

[TrueDiesel3]

swap Billups for Arenas
Arenas is not a choker, he's just an idiot and an attention whore....completely different things. Mo Williams is the guy that should replace Chauncey Billups.

[IN-PAX-WE-TRUST]

Billups?!?!?!?!?!?!?! You're an idiot.

[Magic Vinsanity]

How the f*ck is Dwight a choker?! Ask LeBitch if Dwight choked in the ECF closeout game in 2009. Him kissing FT's in the Finals isnt choking, because he misses FT's all the time. If he was a good FT shooter and he missed, THATS choking. Dwight didnt choke.

Billups? GTFO!

Retard.

[TrueDiesel3]

How the f*ck is Dwight a choker?! Ask LeBitch if Dwight choked in the ECF closeout game in 2009. Him kissing FT's in the Finals isnt choking, because he misses FT's all the time. If he was a good FT shooter and he missed, THATS choking. Dwight didnt choke.

Billups? GTFO!

Retard.
I know you are a Magic fan, but missing FTs in the biggest moments is considered choking, no matter how bad your FT% is......It's still a choke, now it might not be as bad as Nick Anderson missing those FTs, but it's still a choke. Plus, there isn't really a Center that chokes, is there?

I agree abou Billups though, Billups isn't really a choker.

[Yung D-Will]

How the f*ck is Dwight a choker?! Ask LeBitch if Dwight choked in the ECF closeout game in 2009. Him kissing FT's in the Finals isnt choking, because he misses FT's all the time. If he was a good FT shooter and he missed, THATS choking. Dwight didnt choke.

Billups? GTFO!

Retard.

Thx for clearing that up.

So if you miss freethrows at the end of the game and you're a "bad" free throw shooter you didn't choke. I see then i wonder what all this Rondo hype is about when he missed freethrows,

[SCdac]

I'm sorry, but Dirk (and Beauboius) were the reason the Mavs overcame a 20+ pts deficit, Dirk scoring even scoring a clutch 3pointer that gave them the first lead of the game. But then came along Rick Carlisle, moment killer. You're right, Dirk should've driven to the basket stronger, and I was very angry at him for not doing it (especially coz he's got GREAT post moves) but that one moment doesn't mean at all that he choked. Concerning those fouls in the first half: That was pure frustration and absolutely comprehensible, because the rest of the team has been playing like sh!t, especially someone like Jason Kidd, who is supposed to be a leader and a go-to-guy, too.

Granted, Dirk did choke several times against Miami and the Warriors. But even great players have such moments. Often the difference is that a good team is supposed to step into the breach for its superstar the way that he usually does it the other way around.

And if hitting gamewinners doesn't somehow translate into clutchness, then why don't other players have a similar or better ratio than Dirk? And hasn't Dirk been in the top 3 4th quarter players the last 5 years? His choker label derives from the Miami and the Golden State series, which is totally understandable, but it's not fair towards Dirk that he's still being called a choker when the last few playoff series losses have not been his fault at all.

If you're the leader of a team, and you're playing more minutes than anybody, you can't say it wasn't his fault "at all". This is coming from somebody who grew up watching David Robinson fall short in the playoffs tim and time again - much of it was his fault, and he had a similarly shitty (probably worse) supporting cast.... at the same time, much like Dirk, the team would even be there without him.

and lots of players have hit game winners. I'm not discounting Dirk's multitude of game winning shots, but I'm not letting it re-paint the picture he's painted for himself in the playoffs. I take them with a grain of salt anyways, up until 2006, Dirk had less game winning shots than Steve Francis, Micheal Redd, Carmelo Anthony, and Joe Johnson... None of which are better players than Dirk... I think lots of players are capable of hitting clutch shots, and I think Nowitzki, with such a clean release (the best from any 7 footer ever possibly) and height advantage, is definitely capable of hitting clutch shots.

But hitting game winners does not automatically make a player "clutch" for the rest of their career in my opinion. There's more to being clutch than jump shooting . And game-winning shots don't carry over into the playoffs necessarily (I definitely saw that with Roger Mason Jr. who had like 3-4 game winners in 2009 and absolutely blew in the ensuing playoffs).

And for the record, I don't blame Dirk entirely for losing the Spurs in the first round or even mostly (Carlisle played a big part, and his dumbfounded post game interviews only highlighted that. Shawn Marion was also a waste of space, and Kidd was very disappointing). But Nowitzki DID play a part of it. In game 2, on his home court, he shot 9-24, missed his first 6 shots of the game, and missed a FT for the first time in like 88 attempts (playoff pressure much?), letting the Spurs gain momentum in the series. In game 4 (the third Spurs win in a row), he scored 17 points in 43 minutes which is not ideal for him and Dallas. Like I said, in the last game he had opportunities to force the pressure and stop the clock, rather than trying to "shoot his way out of a hole".

Choking can happen at any time, even on the back of some really good games.

[creepingdeath]

@SCdac: Of course he played a part, I mean after all he still is part of the team, so you're right about that one, my bad. Still, I don't consider it choking at all because he played a very good series, no matter how you turn it.

[Magic Vinsanity]

I know you are a Magic fan, but missing FTs in the biggest moments is considered choking, no matter how bad your FT% is......It's still a choke, now it might not be as bad as Nick Anderson missing those FTs, but it's still a choke.

It has nothing to do with being a Magic fan, because I'm more than happy to list all Howard's faults and all the Magic's faults in general, but Dwight choking at the FT line, when he sucks d*ck at FT's all the time regardless of when he takes them, I dont think can be considered choking. It was just Dwight missing, as usual.


Thx for clearing that up.

So if you miss freethrows at the end of the game and you're a "bad" free throw shooter you didn't choke. I see then i wonder what all this Rondo hype is about when he missed freethrows,

Dude, you can choke at something you are crap at anyway! Dont be ridiculous. I cant play golf, so if I miss a putt, does that make me a choker? No, it makes me a crap golf player! Dwight is a crap FT shooter, not a choker. There's a difference.

[TheCorporation]

No Ray Allen nor John Starks?
RA?

[zORi]

It has nothing to do with being a Magic fan, because I'm more than happy to list all Howard's faults and all the Magic's faults in general, but Dwight choking at the FT line, when he sucks d*ck at FT's all the time regardless of when he takes them, I dont think can be considered choking. It was just Dwight missing, as usual.



Dude, you can choke at something you are crap at anyway! Dont be ridiculous. I cant play golf, so if I miss a putt, does that make me a choker? No, it makes me a crap golf player! Dwight is a crap FT shooter, not a choker. There's a difference.

Exactly.

Also, have you guys noticed that not one Magic fan has stood up for Vince? He deserves to be on that list, that's not being biased, but Dwight definitely doesn't.

You don't have a choker C? I got one, Channing Frye.

I also notice how Lebron isn't on there, and how could you people even think about putting Rashard on there after all the buzzer beaters/game winners he has hit in the last year or 2? GTFO!

[hateraid]

Choke Webber...I mean Chris.

[MeLO MvP 15]

WTF is Chauncey doing there... granted this year he was below his average in the playoffs... he isn't a choker

[TrueDiesel3]

RA?
Ray Allen is quite terrible in Game 7s...

[ManuGinobili]

manu ginobili is the greatest player ever

[ManuGinobili]

Ray Allen is quite terrible in Game 7s...
is manu the goat? :confusedshrug:

[Blazed22]

manu ginobili is the greatest player ever
reported, i'm tired of your bs trolling.

[ManuGinobili]

reported, i'm tired of your bs trolling.
u mad?

[ManuGinobili]

reported, i'm tired of your bs trolling.
how good is a peak manu?

[ManuGinobili]

reported, i'm tired of your bs trolling.
GREATNESS
http://jordanrivas.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/Manu-Ginobili-jumper.jpeg

[ManuGinobili]

reported, i'm tired of your bs trolling.
GREATNESS
http://www.inquirre.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/manu_ginobili.jpg

[ginobli2311]

If you're the leader of a team, and you're playing more minutes than anybody, you can't say it wasn't his fault "at all". This is coming from somebody who grew up watching David Robinson fall short in the playoffs tim and time again - much of it was his fault, and he had a similarly shitty (probably worse) supporting cast.... at the same time, much like Dirk, the team would even be there without him.

and lots of players have hit game winners. I'm not discounting Dirk's multitude of game winning shots, but I'm not letting it re-paint the picture he's painted for himself in the playoffs. I take them with a grain of salt anyways, up until 2006, Dirk had less game winning shots than Steve Francis, Micheal Redd, Carmelo Anthony, and Joe Johnson... None of which are better players than Dirk... I think lots of players are capable of hitting clutch shots, and I think Nowitzki, with such a clean release (the best from any 7 footer ever possibly) and height advantage, is definitely capable of hitting clutch shots.

But hitting game winners does not automatically make a player "clutch" for the rest of their career in my opinion. There's more to being clutch than jump shooting . And game-winning shots don't carry over into the playoffs necessarily (I definitely saw that with Roger Mason Jr. who had like 3-4 game winners in 2009 and absolutely blew in the ensuing playoffs).

And for the record, I don't blame Dirk entirely for losing the Spurs in the first round or even mostly (Carlisle played a big part, and his dumbfounded post game interviews only highlighted that. Shawn Marion was also a waste of space, and Kidd was very disappointing). But Nowitzki DID play a part of it. In game 2, on his home court, he shot 9-24, missed his first 6 shots of the game, and missed a FT for the first time in like 88 attempts (playoff pressure much?), letting the Spurs gain momentum in the series. In game 4 (the third Spurs win in a row), he scored 17 points in 43 minutes which is not ideal for him and Dallas. Like I said, in the last game he had opportunities to force the pressure and stop the clock, rather than trying to "shoot his way out of a hole".

Choking can happen at any time, even on the back of some really good games.

no player is perfect.

Dirk is one of the 5 most clutch players in the league and has been for really almost the last decade. he shot 98% from the free throw line this year in crunch time. nobody else even came close to that. he is great in game winning situations and he steps up his play big time in the playoffs and in elimination games.

he gets an unfair stigma for the miami series. he did play a terrible series.......but again the real problem for the mavericks even in that series was coaching and defense. just like it always has been. the mavs have done a downright terrible job of surrounding dirk with the right players. they gave him terry / stackhouse / finley / howard / lafrentz / dampier / jamison.....all terrible defenders and one dimensional volume scorers. dirk needed guys like prince / gerald wallace / mourning / ben wallace ....and other defensive minded players. he needed a center to help on the boards and protect the paint. he needed a legit 2nd option like a paul pierce or a joe johnson. instead he got terry / howard / aging jason kidd.....you just don't win with that. dirk's success has been remarkable. its a true shame what has happened in dallas over the last decade.

but everyone always hates on dirk. the fact that he's mentioned on any all choke team is such a joke. for christ sake. he's on the first team all-clutch team over the last decade in the nba. thats how brainwashed you ESPN junkies have become. think for yourselves please.....

[ManuGinobili]

no player is perfect.

Dirk is one of the 5 most clutch players in the league and has been for really almost the last decade. he shot 98% from the free throw line this year in crunch time. nobody else even came close to that. he is great in game winning situations and he steps up his play big time in the playoffs and in elimination games.

he gets an unfair stigma for the miami series. he did play a terrible series.......but again the real problem for the mavericks even in that series was coaching and defense. just like it always has been. the mavs have done a downright terrible job of surrounding dirk with the right players. they gave him terry / stackhouse / finley / howard / lafrentz / dampier / jamison.....all terrible defenders and one dimensional volume scorers. dirk needed guys like prince / gerald wallace / mourning / ben wallace ....and other defensive minded players. he needed a center to help on the boards and protect the paint. he needed a legit 2nd option like a paul pierce or a joe johnson. instead he got terry / howard / aging jason kidd.....you just don't win with that. dirk's success has been remarkable. its a true shame what has happened in dallas over the last decade.

but everyone always hates on dirk. the fact that he's mentioned on any all choke team is such a joke. for christ sake. he's on the first team all-clutch team over the last decade in the nba. thats how brainwashed you ESPN junkies have become. think for yourselves please.....
manus greatness
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/si/2008/basketball/nba/12/16/writers.roundtable/manu-ginobili.p1.jpg

[ManuGinobili]

Lolz Xd

[LBJames2010]

PG: Asamoah Gyan
SG: Joe Johnson
SF: Vince Carter
PF: Dirk Nowitzki
C: Dwight Howard

Agree with the list?


fixed

[SCdac]

but everyone always hates on dirk. the fact that he's mentioned on any all choke team is such a joke. for christ sake. he's on the first team all-clutch team over the last decade in the nba. thats how brainwashed you ESPN junkies have become. think for yourselves please.....

Yeah, it sure was clutch in 2007 when Dirk missed his first 8 shots of Game 6 against the 42-win Golden State Warriors right? Not making a basket till the very end of the second quarter after bricking three's, and finishing your MVP season with an 8 point dud of a game is pretty clutch huh?

Leading arguably the best team in the league at that point (they lost only 15 games in the regular season) to arguably the worst upset ever, um yeah that only happened a few years ago. Why should it be disregarded?

Being an elite offensive player, a 6'11-7'0 foot big man, somebody who will win you games putting the ball in the basket... being thrown off your game in the first round by 6'8 Stephen Jackson and 6'9 Al Harrington is not clutch.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/adrumaddict/dirkguardedbycaptainjack.jpg

[csklmf]

G Ray Allen
G Tracy McGrady
F Lebron James
F Paul Pierce
C Shaq

[ginobli2311]

Yeah, it sure was clutch in 2007 when Dirk missed his first 8 shots of Game 6 against the 42-win Golden State Warriors right? Not making a basket till the very end of the second quarter after bricking three's, and finishing your MVP season with an 8 point dud of a game is pretty clutch huh?

Leading arguably the best team in the league at that point (they lost only 15 games in the regular season) to arguably the worst upset ever, um yeah that only happened a few years ago. Why should it be disregarded?

Being an elite offensive player, a 6'11-7'0 foot big man, somebody who will win you games putting the ball in the basket... being thrown off your game in the first round by 6'8 Stephen Jackson and 6'9 Al Harrington is not clutch.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/adrumaddict/dirkguardedbycaptainjack.jpg

i never said he was clutch in that series. but one or two series do not define a player. don't make me go on a rant about how many great players have come up small in playoff series before. and by the way.....stephen jackson and al harrington are two of the worst matchups for dirk in the league defensively.

[boozehound]

Oh really? Tell me why.
dude was terrible in the playoffs for the pistons the last couple years there. Hes been better with DEN, but still not enough.
Hes hit some huge shots of course, but hes also missed a lot of game changers/winners.

[bdreason]

PG: Chauncey Billups
SG: Joe Johnson
SF: Vince Carter
PF: Dirk Nowitzki
C: Dwight Howard

Agree with the list?


Possibly the worst list I've ever seen on ISH... and that's saying a lot.

[OptimusPrime1]

G Ray Allen
G Tracy McGrady
F Lebron James
F Paul Pierce
C Shaq
:roll:

[Lakas Fan Yo]

No list is complete without the two greatest chokers in history. Stacy McLady and Yotam Halperin.

[Jotaro Durant]

PG: Chauncey Billups
SG: Joe Johnson
SF: Vince Carter
PF: Dirk Nowitzki
C: Dwight Howard

Agree with the list?

:no:

[imlmf]

lebron james should be hanging his jersey on this team's gym rafter, he's a legend in this category, period.

[-playmaker-]

Hahaha...love bumps like this

You can see in this thread who knows what they are talking about and who doesn't...

Many in here understood Dirk is clutch back when this was made...and others just see rings as the only stat

[Mr. Jabbar]

OP's list fails in so many ways :banghead:

[kentatm]

gat damn

sdacs dislike for Dirk is strong

[SCdac]

dirk played weak at some of the worst possible times in his career, what can I say? just cus I speak up doesn't mean I have any special "hatred". I've never created a thread about him nor do i care to. I'm just a fan and It's all entertainment at the end of the day... I've talked about a multitude of stuff on this board... 4,000 posts worth, I guess... I could give a shit if anyone agree's or cares to bump every Dirk related thread... it's actually kind of sad... but whatever, me bitching about it doesn't help anything.... doesn't change Dirk's past :confusedshrug:

[v1ncelis]

Mo Williams
Nick Anderson
Lebron James
Chris Webber
Dwight Howard
:rolleyes:

[DMAVS41]

dirk played weak at some of the worst possible times in his career, what can I say? just cus I speak up doesn't mean I have any special "hatred". I've never created a thread about him nor do i care to. I'm just a fan and It's all entertainment at the end of the day... I've talked about a multitude of stuff on this board... 4,000 posts worth, I guess... I could give a shit if anyone agree's or cares to bump every Dirk related thread... it's actually kind of sad... but whatever, me bitching about it doesn't help anything.... doesn't change Dirk's past :confusedshrug:

no, its just that you and others want to harp on only the bad moments of a 13 year career that has been one of the best ever.

when are these "weak" moments????????

06 finals? overblown. He was not terrible...he was ok. He was as clutch as possible in the pivotal game 5 and was great in game 6.

07 warriors? for sure.

what else? i can rattle off many more examples of "weak" moments for some of the 8 best players of all time.

what player in NBA history doesn't have some black marks in their past or career?

why are the standards for Dirk so much higher than others?

Why is it with Dirk that he's only a great scorer? Even though he's over 10 boards per game in the playoffs for his career....boasting the 13th highest defensive rebound percentage in NBA playoff history. Higher than Robinson, Shaq, Karl Malone, Hakeem, Mourning......LOL

I want to know why all these other players get free passes like Dr. J, West, Baylor, Stockton, and Malone.

Do you realize that if you graded Stockton on the Dirk curve people would come away from you thinking that Stockton was a scrub?

[lilbeastnani]

why are the standards for Dirk so much higher than others?

The answer to that question is that people base their opinions on what they've seen. "Tough" = Prime Shaq. "Clutch" = Prime Kobe. It never occurred to them tough could be playing 70+ games each year of his career (other than the lockout season), playing through sprained ankles, fingers, this or that the same kind of things people wet themselves over Kobe doing. Or "clutch" being HAS to be doing everything for your team PLUS making a game winning buzzer beater in someone's face. Rather than it being clutch to carry your team and even just to keep them IN a game that they otherwise would've been blown out of.. And most of all they hold him to a higher standard because up until this point they've never seen a European 4/5 with his playing style win a championship, but now he broke the mold.

[ace23]

G John Starks
G Nick Anderson
F LeBron James
F Chris Webber
C Patrick Ewing

/thread

[ProfessorMurder]

G John Starks
G Nick Anderson
F LeBron James
F Chris Webber
C Patrick Ewing

/thread

Ewing isn't a choker. He just never had a good second option.

[Bladers]

i never said he was clutch in that series. but one or two series do not define a player. don't make me go on a rant about how many great players have come up small in playoff series before. and by the way.....stephen jackson and al harrington are two of the worst matchups for dirk in the league defensively.

You said it yourself, yet you now overrate him based on one or two series this year. The contradiction is too strong here...

[DMAVS41]

You said it yourself, yet you now overrate him based on one or two series this year. The contradiction is too strong here...

I'll never understand this line of thinking.

Dirk is one of the best playoff players of all time. All the objective measures confirm this.

He now has added an all time great playoff run, a title, and a finals MVP.

He has led a team to 11 straight 50 win seasons. The only other players to do similar are:

Russell, Magic/Kareem, and Duncan. Thats it.

Dirk is 1 of 4 players to average over 25 and 10 for his career in the playoffs.

Dirk is arguably the best elimination game player of all time.


1 or 2 series? How about 11 years of ****ing playing all time great basketball and doing things only some of the games greatest of all time ever did....and oh by the way, the guys that have accomplished what Dirk has all had at least twice as much help.

[Bladers]

I'll never understand this line of thinking.

Dirk is one of the best playoff players of all time. All the objective measures confirm this.

He now has added an all time great playoff run, a title, and a finals MVP.

He has led a team to 11 straight 50 win seasons. The only other players to do similar are:

Russell, Magic/Kareem, and Duncan. Thats it.

Dirk is 1 of 4 players to average over 25 and 10 for his career in the playoffs.

Dirk is arguably the best elimination game player of all time.


1 or 2 series? How about 11 years of ****ing playing all time great basketball and doing things only some of the games greatest of all time ever did....and oh by the way, the guys that have accomplished what Dirk has all had at least twice as much help.

Reg season do not matter. Lebron has proved this to be true time and time again. When you have a good team around you, you will keep ranking up those reg season win shares. But playoffs is where it counts.

What matters is that It took Dirk 11 years to win a title and suddenly he is catapulted to the plateau of the all-time list, getting comparison to Bird.

That's just a joke.

Plus his supporting cast were great and played out of their mind.
They played team basketball and played it great. The entire team was clutch not just dirk.

Berea playing like prime steve nash.
Jason Terry shooting out of his mind, 18ppg on 50% FG i believe for the entire playoffs. more than enough for a second option.
J kidd hitting clutch threes after clutch trees.

Having lock down defenders in stevenson, Marion, Kidd and Chandler so Dirk has to do nothing on the defensive end.

With Dirk/Terry carrying the offensive load when Dirk went out.

That's an excellent clutch supporting cast, yet we gonna hear how dirk did it all by himself, its just a joke!

Yet he gets ALL the glory.
plus he also had the best bench in the Playoffs statistic wise.

[DMAVS41]

Reg season do not matter. Lebron has proved this to be true time and time again. When you have a good team around you, you will keep ranking up those reg season win shares. But playoffs is where it counts.

What matters is that It took Dirk 11 years to win a title and suddenly he is catapulted to the plateau of the all-time list, getting comparison to Bird.

That's just a joke.

Plus his supporting cast were great and played out of their mind.
They played team basketball and played it great. The entire team was clutch not just dirk.

Berea playing like prime steve nash.
Jason Terry shooting out of his mind, 18ppg on 50% FG i believe for the entire playoffs. more than enough for a second option.
J kidd hitting clutch threes after clutch trees.

Having lock down defenders in stevenson, Marion, Kidd and Chandler so Dirk has to do nothing on the defensive end.

With Dirk/Terry carrying the offensive load when Dirk went out.

That's an excellent clutch supporting cast, yet we gonna hear how dirk did it all by himself, its just a joke!

Yet he gets ALL the glory.
plus he also had the best bench in the Playoffs statistic wise.


Here is your problem. You under-rated Dirk and his career for the last 12 years.

He was already a top 25 player of all time coming into this year. Now he's moved up....and rightfully so.

As for his supporting cast....they played great. No player has ever won completely alone.

But now you want to act like Dirk doesn't deserve as much or more credit as other players for winning??????

What????????

This is simply more impressive than KG winning with his loaded celtics team, Kobe winning as a 2nd option with shaq and then his loaded lakers team, bird winning with some of the most stacked teams ever, magic winning with kareem and worthy.

This title by Dirk is way up there. The mavs were a 50/50 shot to make it out of the first round. The Mavs were 20 to 1 to win the title. This was a historic and improbable title. And yes, Dirk gets a ton of credit for that because he was the teams only star and played amazing.

Scoring efficiently and coming through in nearly every big moment.

This title just validates all the things I've been saying on here all year.

Dirk is one of the best players of all time by any standards or measure.

Numbers? Yep
Regular season success? Yep
Playoff success? Yep
Longevity? Yep

Nothing left. He's locked in the top 20 forever. You best make peace with that son.

[Basketball Dirk]

PG: Chauncey Billups
SG: Joe Johnson
SF: Vince Carter
PF: Dirk Nowitzki
C: Dwight Howard

Agree with the list?

:facepalm

[therammingman]

nick anderson?
t-mac?

[DMAVS41]

Being successful in the long term and winning championships isn't all about hitting game-winners. Go check Dirk's game 6 against the Spurs if you want some recent examples of his game... then tell me he doesn't consistently fault under pressure, when his back and his team's back is to the wall.

The guy is 7 feet tall, 245 pounds, you know how many shots in the paint he made in game 6 against the Spurs? ..... 0 shots.... Out of 20+ shots, do you know how many were taken in the paint of that game?..... 2 shots.... This guy is supposed to be a "power forward".... In the 4th quarter of that game with under 5 minutes left, he had a 35 year old Antonio McDyess with 5 fouls guarding him a few feet in from FT line, he could have driven to the basket for a high-percentage layup or an And-1 and cut Spurs lead to 4 or 3, instead he takes an weak fade away jumper that clanks off the rim.... Spurs get the ball back, McDyess gets completely free from Dirk's "defense" on the other end, knocks down a 17 footer, Spurs stretch a 6 point lead to 8 and eventually win the game.

He's a near perfect / automatic as they come FT shooter and had an extraordinary FT streak leading up to the playoffs, yet in an elimination game he misses a FT about minute into the 4th quarter??? .... (yeah, missing a FT is easy for anybody to do, but this is Dirk we're talking, you can't talk up his efficiency without noticing when he's inefficient in pivotal moments)

Listen, I'm not saying "Dirk is a choker" based on this one game alone, but it's an example of what kind of player he is, IMO. What Dirk apologists fail to see is that under pressure, maybe not as a whole or anything close to the majority of his career, but under pressure he tends to simmer down or not step up in the way that bigs or MVP's should... Of course he is going to have game winners, he's been in the league since 2000!.... and he's had a couple opportunities at least (as the favorite) to win it all now. His Mavs, with Kidd, Butler, Haywood, etc, was supposed to be the team that finally won it, they were the #2 seed in the West, and couldn't even get out of the first....

And tell me this, how many MVP's in the history of the NBA shot 38% from the field in the first round getting knocked out by a worse team... in their MVP year?

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[SCdac]

Dirk had plenty of bad moments, I don't feel bad about pointing them out or criticizing him, or thinking he had a soft reputation and enough bad moments to have a so-so opinion of him at the time of the post.... I can also admit that he has toughened mentally as a player and players tend to to that as they've been in the league longer (apparently for Dirk it took 10+ seasons). That's the beauty of the NBA. Even when Michael Jordan won a championship, there were Sports Illustrated covers saying ... "FINALLY" ... Bump every thread you want, doesn't bother me. Only shows how short people's memories are if they can't even remember past the 2011 post season. Or think that one season embodies Dirk's whole career. Hell, DMAVS you probably think Dirk is top-10 all time. Being called out by you..... let's just say it's more of a compliment...... You're obsessive bro :wtf:

[SCdac]

I mean let's face it...... Dirk in the prime of his career lead his 55-win, #2 seeded team to another first round exit at the time........ what, are we supposed to act like he actually won the championship? :confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

Dirk had plenty of bad moments, I don't feel bad about pointing them out or criticizing him, or thinking he had a soft reputation and enough bad moments to have a so-so opinion of him at the time of the post.... I can also admit that he has toughened mentally as a player and players tend to to that as they've been in the league longer (apparently for Dirk it took 10+ seasons). That's the beauty of the NBA. Even when Michael Jordan won a championship, there were Sports Illustrated covers saying ... "FINALLY" ... Bump every thread you want, doesn't bother me. Only shows how short people's memories are if they can't even remember past the 2011 post season. Or think that one season embodies Dirk's whole career. Hell, DMAVS you probably think Dirk is top-10 all time. Being called out by you..... let's just say it's more of a compliment...... You're obsessive bro :wtf:

I was laughing at your line about Dirk coming up small with his back against the wall......its just funny

He's one of the best elimination game players of all time.

Of course Dirk has had some bad moments. Every player has. Its just funny because Dirk is actually one of the most clutch players ever. The idea of him being a choker is just laughable.

You just hate Dirk. Its ok. But this thread is awesome. You look silly.....especially now.

:no:

[DMAVS41]

I mean let's face it...... Dirk in the prime of his career lead his 55-win, #2 seeded team to another first round exit at the time........ what, are we supposed to act like he actually won the championship? :confusedshrug:

27/8/3 on 55/57/95 64% TS


:confusedshrug:

[SCdac]

I was laughing at your line about Dirk coming up small with his back against the wall......its just funny

He's one of the best elimination game players of all time.

Of course Dirk has had some bad moments. Every player has. Its just funny because Dirk is actually one of the most clutch players ever. The idea of him being a choker is just laughable.

You just hate Dirk. Its ok. But this thread is awesome. You look silly.....especially now.

:no:

What's silly is a bunch of teenagers and pathetic, butthurt Mavs fans getting all redeemed and shit by bumping old threads....

"Oh nooo, somebody spoke badly about Dirk!!!111" they are soooo wrong noowwwwww hehehee this is my time to get back at all those strangers on ISH"

[DMAVS41]

Oh, and Dirk in those games "with his back against the wall".....

Dirk 29 points 12 boards 3 assists 61% TS in 20 elimination games


Yep, he really sucks "with his back against the wall"

[SCdac]

27/8/3 on 55/57/95 64% TS


:confusedshrug:

thanks for posting stats up.... maybe go actually watch the games

:confusedshrug:

and you didn't answer the question: are we supposed to act like Dirk actually won the championship?

[DMAVS41]

What's silly is a bunch of teenagers and pathetic, butthurt Mavs fans getting all redeemed and shit by bumping old threads....

"Oh nooo, somebody spoke badly about Dirk!!!111" they are soooo wrong noowwwwww hehehee this is my time to get back at all those strangers on ISH"

I didn't bump it. I just saw the thread bumped and went and read it. And found some of the stuff you were saying amusing.

I just think it shows how messed up perceptions can be because by any standard or measure Dirk has been one of the best, if not the best, clutch player of this generation.

You act like its only 2011. Nope, its a decade long of evidence. You are just picking his two poor series to create a narrative about a player.

Which I could do with any player all time. Bird was a choker in a couple finals. Magic was a choker in 84. Kobe was a choker in 04. Shaq was a choker in 95 and the countless times he was swept. Wilt was a choker. Baylor was a choker. Malone was a choker. Kareem choked plenty of times.....

On and on and on.

Again, do you stay consistent? Of course not.

[DMAVS41]

thanks for posting stats up.... maybe go actually watch the games

:confusedshrug:

and you didn't answer the question: are we supposed to act like Dirk actually won the championship?

We are supposed to act like he cost the Mavs the series last year. Just like he didn't cost the Mavs in 09 or 08 as well.

Are we supposed to ignore how he actually has played?

That the Mavs have the best record in tight games over the last 7 years?
That Dirk is always one of the best at game winners and crunch time play?
That Dirk has never lost a game 7?
That Dirk (along with Barkley/Wilt/West) is one of the best elimination game players of all time?

Should we ignore all of that for a missed free throw in 06 and a terrible series in 07?

:wtf:

[SCdac]

I didn't bump it. I just saw the thread bumped and went and read it. And found some of the stuff you were saying amusing.

I just think it shows how messed up perceptions can be because by any standard or measure Dirk has been one of the best, if not the best, clutch player of this generation.

You act like its only 2011. Nope, its a decade long of evidence. You are just picking his two poor series to create a narrative about a player.

Which I could do with any player all time. Bird was a choker in a couple finals. Magic was a choker in 84. Kobe was a choker in 04. Shaq was a choker in 95 and the countless times he was swept. Kareem choked plenty of times.....

On and on and on.

Again, do you stay consistent? Of course not.

:violin:

Awww pooor Dirk.

dude, it's basketball. There are thousands of posters on here, with thousands of posts. What are you the Dirk-police? lol

you have some inflated opinion of Dirk..... I think everybody gets that by now brotha.... not everybody shares your opinion. that may be hard for you to believe, I know.

As much as you think others a biased, you are biased at least just as much if not worse.

The level of bitterness you Dirk and Mavs fans have.... man... it's almost like it's blinded your enjoyment of the franchise achievement, and it's like only Dirk won the championship..... pretty sad :facepalm

[DMAVS41]

:violin:

Awww pooor Dirk.

dude, it's basketball. There are thousands of posters on here, with thousands of posts. What are you the Dirk-police? lol

you have some inflated opinion of Dirk..... I think everybody gets that by now brotha.... not everybody shares your opinion. that may be hard for you to believe, I know.

As much as you think others a biased, you are biased at least just as much if not worse.

The level of bitterness you Dirk and Mavs fans have.... man... it's almost like it's blinded your enjoyment of the franchise achievement, and it's like only Dirk won the championship..... pretty sad :facepalm

Of course I'm biased. But that doesn't mean I'm wrong.

I just want to know if you will stay consistent with your views about Dirk when applied to other players.

Don't you feel like you can find a couple bad series for every great player?

Please answer.


I also find the bold hilarious. You blamed Dirk for losing last year while he played great and got no help. Now? You want to credit everyone else and talk about team. Funny how that works isn't it?

[SCdac]

I also find the bold hilarious. You blamed Dirk for losing last year while he played great and got no help. Now? You want to credit everyone else and talk about team. Funny how that works isn't it?

You find it hilarious that I said the Mavs winning is a franchise achievement? :wtf:

Dude, alot of work goes into a team, from the top to bottom, and they've been a franchise for like 30 years....

I think everybody gets credit, with the most going to Dirk, Cuban, and Carlisle in that order.

But honestly, it's a team sport. Anybody who doesn't see that is a homer to the point where it's fanatical, and kind of creepy to be honest.

[DMAVS41]

SCDAC

Lets see how you feel about this:

Are Kareem and Oscar chokers? Did they not choke losing in 1973 in their first playoff series? They lost as a 60 win team to a 47 win warriors team.

LOL

Will you stay consistent?

How about Baylor? Was he a choker?

How about Wilt and West in the 73 finals? Were they chokers?


Again, please answer this stuff. I'm curious to see if you consider most of the top 15 players of all time chokers.

If you do, I have no problem with your views on Dirk.

[DMAVS41]

You find it hilarious that I said the Mavs winning is a franchise achievement? :wtf:

Dude, alot of work goes into a team, from the top to bottom, and they've been a franchise for like 30 years....

I think everybody gets credit, with the most going to Dirk, Cuban, and Carlisle in that order.

But honestly, it's a team sport. Anybody who doesn't see that is a homer to the point where it's fanatical, and kind of creepy to be honest.


Of course it is. Then why did you blame Dirk for 2010? He played great and got hardly any help. It goes both ways man.

Anyway, I'll be awaiting your response to the above post.

[SCdac]

Again, please answer this stuff.

what is your deal with wanting my opinion so bad? are you that driven to hear people suck off Dirk that you have to make up these weird arguments comparing him to Kareem Abdul Jabbar? honestly I could give a shit what you think, you've proven to be incredibly biased and basically a troll. the fact that you disagree with me, only makes me feel like I saying something right....

[SCdac]

[/B]

Of course it is. Then why did you blame Dirk for 2010? He played great and got hardly any help. It goes both ways man.

Anyway, I'll be awaiting your response to the above post.

Of course it's a team loss.... one that Dirk lead.... what is so hard to understand?

He's the leader in losses and he's the leaders in wins.

Is that not obvious? :confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

what is your deal with wanting my opinion so bad? are you that driven to hear people suck off Dirk that you have to make up these weird arguments comparing him to Kareem Abdul Jabbar? honestly I could give a shit what you think, you've proven to be incredibly biased and basically a troll. the fact that you disagree with me, only makes me feel like I saying something right....

Why are you attacking me and not my posts or assertions?

I'm just curious to see if you have actually taken the time to study NBA history. I'm curious to see if someone that calls Dirk a "choker" is willing to call West and Baylor and Kareem and Wilt and Kobe and Oscar and Shaq and so many more players that have "choked" many times in playoffs series/big moments "chokers" as well.

Just curious. I could do without the personal attacks though. Not sure why you got all mad at me. I'm calling out your ideas and posts, not you. I'm sure you are a nice guy.

Please answer.

[DMAVS41]

Of course it's a team loss.... one that Dirk lead.... what is so hard to understand?

He's the leader in losses and he's the leaders in wins.

Is that not obvious? :confusedshrug:


So you don't think the best player on the team can play great and still lose? Nobody is disputing that Dirk is the leader.

You just insinuated that Dirk was a huge part of the loss.....as if he didn't play well enough or something.

Again though, will you stay consistent on these views with other players?

[SCdac]

Why are you attacking me and not my posts or assertions?


because your fanatical love for Dirk is sooo see-through man. Having a logical, rational debate with you about Dirk is like arguing with some parent who's kid I'm coaching.

[SCdac]

So you don't think the best player on the team can play great and still lose? Nobody is disputing that Dirk is the leader.

You just insinuated that Dirk was a huge part of the loss.....as if he didn't play well enough or something.

Again though, will you stay consistent on these views with other players?

In that first round in 2011, I think he deserves the lion's share of the blame, yes. In some other series too, certainly. I saw instances last season (10) in which he could have changed the fate of the series, had he played better or had he not made this "error" here and there.... but that's basketball... greater players than Dirk have made mistakes.

[DMAVS41]

because your fanatical love for Dirk is sooo see-through man. Having a logical, rational debate with you about Dirk is like arguing with some parent who's kid I'm coaching.

Really?

I haven't been that way at all in this thread.

I'm trying to be open minded, but your refusal to answer any of my questions and your defensive tone is leading me to believe you know you were wrong and won't admit it.

Sorry, just the way I see it.

[DMAVS41]

In that first round in 2011, I think he deserves the lion's share of the blame, yes. In some other series too, certainly. I saw instances last season (10) in which he could have changed the fate of the series, had he played better or had he not made this "error" here and there.... but that's basketball... greater players than Dirk have made mistakes.

totally agree. there is always room for improvement.

i am just curious if you feel the same way about the other greats that have "choked" or "failed" in playoff series.

that is my question. because i could list off 3 to 5 examples for just about every player of all time.....


For example:

You claim Dirk is not good when he and his team have their backs against the wall. Why? You ignore the fact that Dirk has actually played some of his best basketball in elimination games. Saying...."watch the games"

Well, I have watched them. Dirk has routinely played amazing on the verge of elimination aside from a few times. In 20 elimination games, he's gone over 30 in 13 of those games. His stats are off the charts good.

So I don't see the logic. It sounds like you are the one that is biased. Not me.

[SCdac]

Really?

I haven't been that way at all in this thread.

I'm trying to be open minded, but your refusal to answer any of my questions and your defensive tone is leading me to believe you know you were wrong and won't admit it.

Sorry, just the way I see it.

I'm not an idiot man. I've argued with you before and I've seen the nonsense you get yourself to believe on a variety of subjects but predominantly Dirk. I'm not going to presume you suddenly are going to back of your (admitted) bias for Dirk.....

[kentatm]

because your fanatical love for Dirk is sooo see-through man. Having a logical, rational debate with you about Dirk is like arguing with some parent who's kid I'm coaching.



It looks more like you are getting your ass kicked in a debate and are trying to change the subject to save face.


:cheers:

[DMAVS41]

I'm not an idiot man. I've argued with you before and I've seen the nonsense you get yourself to believe on a variety of subjects but predominantly Dirk. I'm not going to presume you suddenly are going to back of your (admitted) bias for Dirk.....

Am I biased? Of course.

Do I lose my mind on here at times? Of course.


Does that have anything to do with this debate right now? Nope.

[SCdac]

It looks more like you are getting your ass kicked in a debate and are trying to change the subject to save face.


:cheers:

Dude, arguing with DMAVS in general.... makes me feel like I'm losing face :facepalm

only a douche Mavs fan would side with him though, I wouldn't expect you to understand

[kentatm]

Dude, arguing with DMAVS in general.... makes me feel like I'm losing face :facepalm

only a douche Mavs fan would side with him though, I wouldn't expect you to understand


:roll:

yep.

when you are losing, attack the person and not the argument.

good job showing how awesome you are.

[DMAVS41]

Dude, arguing with DMAVS in general.... makes me feel like I'm losing face :facepalm

only a douche Mavs fan would side with him though, I wouldn't expect you to understand

So you would rather continue to attack me than talk ball. Ok.

I won't respond again. I wanted to have a good discussion and you derailed the thread.

Sorry, I asked you a few simple questions and you refused to answer. You then went on a tangent about something totally unrelated. You continue to ignore all the evidence as well.

I just don't see the consistency or the argument.

[SCdac]

:roll:

yep.

when you are losing, attack the person and not the argument.

good job showing how awesome you are.

Oh the irony. :roll:

Good job showing how awesome YOU are.

[SCdac]

I won't respond again. I wanted to have a good discussion and you derailed the thread.


Now, if only we could get everybody else on this board to make you do that! it'd probably be a better place to post

:cheers:

[All Net]

Reading the last few pages I really don't get what the arguement is here

How can anybody ever call dirk a choker? One series in 2006 is why? Losing to warriors in round one is why? What has team success got to do with individually? As an individual dirk has always played better in The playoffs. This isn't new.

[kentatm]

Oh the irony. :roll:

Good job showing how awesome YOU are.


:roll:


that went right over your head didnt it?

You do realize that I am critiquing your attempt to change the subject by attacking DAMVS instead of answering his questions don't you?

[DMAVS41]

Reading the last few pages I really don't get what the arguement is here

How can anybody ever call dirk a choker? One series in 2006 is why? Losing to warriors in round one is why? What has team success got to do with individually? As an individual dirk has always played better in The playoffs. This isn't new.

The only way to call Dirk a choker is to call almost every top 20 player in NBA history also a choker.

It makes little to no sense as the people that call Dirk a choker usually only want to reference 06 Finals (the missed ft in game 3 and game 4)....which is funny because Dirk was actually really clutch in game 5 and played very well in game 6. And then of course the 07 series. Dirk was really bad and deserves blame.

Outside of that? He's pretty much played all time great for his career in the playoffs.

What I find interesting and what I was trying to figure out is if those same people will stay consistent with guys like Kareem and West and Baylor and Stockton and Malone and Magic and Bird and Oscar and Shaq and Wilt and Kobe....etc.

All of those guys have had 3 to 5 "choking" series and moments in their careers.

I just don't see any consistency at all.

[SCdac]

:roll:


that went right over your head didnt it?

You do realize that I am critiquing your attempt to change the subject by attacking DAMVS instead of answering his questions don't you?

are you really "critiquing my attempt" to change the subject? or are you just butting into this so called debate to say I'm "saving face" to be a douche? (mind you, DMAVS always seems to fabricate his own weird debates and generally warps my opinion into what he wants to hear).... either way it really doesn't matter, I'm surprised yall aren't bumping more threads than you are. I guess I overestimated Mavs fans un-classiness on ISH, but not by much. All the criticism Dirk has gotten, apparently, is a big deal some folks on here. I got no problem saying that Dirk has proved his critics/haters/etc wrong those who said he could never win a championship (I never said that), but it's hard to say I'd change my opinion of him in the past.

[kentatm]

are you really "critiquing my attempt" to change the subject? or are you just butting into this so called debate to say I'm "saving face" to be a douche? (mind you, DMAVS always seems to fabricate his own weird debates and generally warps my opinion into what he wants to hear).... either way it really doesn't matter, I'm surprised yall aren't bumping more threads than you are. I guess I underestimated Mavs fans un-classiness on ISH, but not by much. All the criticism Dirk has gotten, apparently, is a big deal some folks on here.


:rolleyes:


nope, I was calling you out for trying to change the subject. You wouldn't answer simple questions and instead started attacking DAMAVS.

I posted it looks like you are getting your ass kicked and are attacking DAMAVS b/c you know he has you nailed and what do you do?

Attack me right away saying I'm not smart enough to get it and that only a douche would agree with the guy.

It took exactly one post to prove you know you are wrong and don't want to admit it so you are instead lashing out with personal attacks to change the subject.

That's why you are awesome.

:cheers:

[SCdac]

kentatm, let's not act like you've never encountered a troll (DMAVS in this case), "answering simple questions", like comparisons to past greats (etc), is the first step to a long, unproductive, argument with that fool. if that makes me save face, I could care less man, I'd rather be debating with you in all honesty because at least I know you're not that biased.

[DMAVS41]

kentatm, let's not act like you've never encountered a troll (DMAVS in this case), "answering simple questions", like comparisons to past greats (etc), is the first step to a long, unproductive, argument with that fool. if that makes me save face, I could care less man, I'd rather be debating with you in all honesty because at least I know you're not that biased.

and you continue. LOL

you are the one being biased. what is not productive is you being unwilling to have a legit debate and either stand by your assertions or admit you were wrong.

you are no different than anyone else here that turns to personal attacks when backed into a corner. just remember that before you start calling out other people.

[kentatm]

kentatm, let's not act like you've never encountered a troll (DMAVS in this case), "answering simple questions", like comparisons to past greats (etc), is the first step to a long, unproductive, argument with that fool. if that makes me save face, I could care less man, I'd rather be debating with you in all honesty because at least I know you're not that biased.


I disagree that he is a pure troll. He can be a troll like sometimes with overenthusiastic and over the top posting but that is not the same as what somebody like Hulk/Bladers pulls.

I know he can be a pain to argue with b/c I have done it many times before.

He was asking some pretty good questions regarding what you consider a choker and how you are applying that tag to Dirk.

Your only response was a very weak, go watch the games. Well, I have watched the games. I very much disagree with the way you characterize Dirk in important games. I would just about go so far as to put you in the same category of Showtime and AirChiBundo as people who pretty much crap on Dirk regardless of what he does. You very often downplay his success and amplify his failures to the degree that one could say you are no better than what you claim DAMAVS is doing in overrating Dirk.

[SCdac]

and you continue. LOL

you are the one being biased. what is not productive is you being unwilling to have a legit debate and either stand by your assertions or admit you were wrong.

you are no different than anyone else here that turns to personal attacks when backed into a corner. just remember that before you start calling out other people.

Man, we've "debated" before and I think it just comes down to us having some fundamental disagreements on usually a few different things at least. Basically, how Dirk should be/is perceived by the public or me, how the Mavericks as a team are perceived, and often times how we value certain aspects of basketball altogether, and how we view his impact on wins/losses. Getting into it, to the point where I'm going to have to spell things out for you.... it's just a waste of my time.

[DMAVS41]

Man, we've "debated" before and I think it just comes down to us having some fundamental disagreements on usually a few different things at least. Basically, how Dirk should be/is perceived by the public or me, how the Mavericks as a team are perceived, and often times how we value certain aspects of basketball altogether, and how we view his impact on wins/losses. Getting into it, to the point where I'm going to have to spell things out for you.... it's just a waste of my time.

It doesn't have to be complicated. Its a simple question of whether or not you hold other players to the same standard you do Dirk.

If you do, I have no problem with your take on Dirk because you would be consistent.

However, if you don't, I would have a problem with your take because I would then feel you are being inconsistent.

Without you answering at least some of them, its impossible to have this discussion.

[SCdac]

I disagree that he is a pure troll. He can be a troll like sometimes with overenthusiastic and over the top posting but that is not the same as what somebody like Hulk/Bladers pulls.

I know he can be a pain to argue with b/c I have done it many times before.

I disagree, wholeheartedly. DMAVS/GINOBILI232/etc/etc/etc ... is very much a troll.


He was asking some pretty good questions regarding what you consider a choker and how you are applying that tag to Dirk.

Define "pretty good questions"... Seriously, read his questions and tell me they are not the most loaded questions with all kinds of pretenses and assumptions and standards he's composing for his own sake..... Comparing Dirk to Shaquille Oneal I mean?

that's troll talk, I don't care how he's setting it up.


Your only response was a very weak, go watch the games. Well, I have watched the games. I very much disagree with the way you characterize Dirk in important games. I would just about go so far as to put you in the same category of Showtime and AirChiBundo as people who pretty much crap on Dirk regardless of what he does. You very often downplay his success and amplify his failures to the degree that one could say you are no better than what you claim DAMAVS is doing in overrating Dirk.

I said go watch the games from the 2009-2010 playoffs (ie. DMAVS quoted his stats from that series, I quoted that; him misconstruing my statements is a big part of the reason debating with him is pointless, keep in mind). I'd say, imo, Dirk's collection of games in that series against the Spurs/McDyess/Blair/etc cost the Mavs that series moreso than any other player or person involved on the team. No player takes 100% blame (that's crazy), however I think he takes the most. Carlisle coaching sucked but I also think Dirk played soft or made "errors" in the series that were overall costly, particularly in game 6 I thought Dirk despite stats backed down from pressure late in the game, and in the Game 2 route in on his home court in which he missed 6 of his first 7 shots. It was an example of how, at times, he's come up short under pressure.... Personally, I don't think it was "just adding Tyson Chandler" that changed the way Dirk played in his championship run, he played with more intensity, resolve, experience, and even desperation in the 10-11 run. It'd be one thing to perpetually hate on Dirk, never recognizing his greatness even now after he's won. But greatness is earned - bumping old threads from before it's earned is just dumb and even Dirk supporters fail to give credit to how much Dirk has improved in intangible ways. I got no qualms with being hard on Dirk, because in all honesty, 3 first round exits in 4 years in a players prime is going to look bad and shed some kind of negative light on any team leader.

[DMAVS41]

I disagree, wholeheartedly. DMAVS/GINOBILI232/etc/etc/etc ... is very much a troll.



Define "pretty good questions"... Seriously, read his questions and tell me they are not the most loaded questions with all kinds of pretenses and assumptions and standards he's composing for his own sake..... Comparing Dirk to Shaquille Oneal I mean?

that's troll talk, I don't care how he's setting it up.



I said go watch the games from the 2009-2010 playoffs (ie. DMAVS quoted his stats from that series, I quoted that; him misconstruing my statements is a big part of the reason debating with him is pointless, keep in mind). I'd say, imo, Dirk's collection of games in that series against the Spurs/McDyess/Blair/etc cost the Mavs that series moreso than any other player or person involved on the team. No player takes 100% blame (that's crazy), however I think he takes the most. Carlisle coaching sucked but I also think Dirk played soft or made "errors" in the series that were overall costly, particularly in game 6 I thought Dirk despite stats backed down from pressure late in the game, and in the Game 2 route in on his home court in which he missed 6 of his first 7 shots. It was an example of how, at times, he's come up short under pressure.... Personally, I don't think it was "just adding Tyson Chandler" that changed the way Dirk played in his championship run, he played with more intensity, resolve, experience, and even desperation in the 10-11 run. It'd be one thing to perpetually hate on Dirk, never recognizing his greatness even now after he's won. But greatness is earned - bumping old threads from before it's earned is just dumb and even Dirk supporters fail to give credit to how much Dirk has improved in intangible ways. I got no qualms with being hard on Dirk, because in all honesty, 3 first round exits in 4 years in a players prime is going to look bad and shed some kind of negative light on any team leader.



I can't help but LOL at the bold. The pressure got to Dirk in game 2 of the first round at home because he missed some shots early on? Really? Do you know how many times some of the best players of all time have missed their first 5 shots in a game? Do you really think you are at all being fair? Do you not see your impossible standards?

Your standards for Dirk are insanely high and you are unwilling to be consistent.

I know you are Duncan fan. So I'll put it into those contexts. There are countless examples of Duncan coming up small in big games. Does that make him a choker?

How about his 9 of 30 in game 1 of the Lakers series in 02?
How about his 9 of 26 in game 3 of the Lakers series in 02?

Both games the Spurs still could have won despite Duncan struggling big time.

Choker?

How about Duncan's horrible last two games in 01 against the Lakers?

Choker?

How about Duncan choking against the Lakers in 04 after being up 2-0????? Duncan didn't shoot over 47% the last 4 games in that series....and he shot under 39% in 3 of those games.

Choker?

How about Duncan choking in game 4 against the Mavs in 09? 11-18 from the ft line and 2 points in the 4th in a tight game. 0 attempted shots the entire 4th qtr. I guess the pressure got to him.

And I could go on.

Its of course absurd to call Duncan a choker. He's one of the best 8 players of all time and has come up big much more often. If you used your standards and mainly focused on his shortcomings, he'd be labeled a choker as well. That is why you can't be consistent and won't answer the questions. Your logic and reasoning leads to terrible conclusions.



The truth is that every player comes up short at times in the playoffs in big games and moments. It happens.

You are choosing to ignore the evidence in favor of a perception based opinion.

You ignore the following:

Dirk is one of the best elimination game players of all time
Dirk has never lost a game 7. 4-0 in game 7's and 1-0 in game 5's
Dirk has 3 games 7's of over 30 and 10.....one of those coming against Duncan and the Spurs in SA. The Mavs were the only team to beat Duncan and the Spurs in a 3 year stretch from 05 to 07
The Mavs have the best record in tight games since the 05 season
Dirk is rock solid in crunch time in both the regular season and playoffs
Dirk makes around 40% of his game winners overall and is a solid 5 of 12 on game winners in the playoffs


And then add in one of the most clutch playoff runs of all time and you still want people to think its reasonable to call him a choker?

The truth is that people like you want to ignore Dirk's playoffs in 03 and 06 and then nitpick the hell out of him from 08 to present. You want to quickly forget his 2 great game 7's in 03 and his legendary game 7 in 06 against the Spurs. Was Dirk afraid of the moment in 06 against the Spurs?

This seems to be a general problem here. If a player plays poorly at any point in the playoffs, its choking. It can't just be a bad game or an off night, its choking. Whats worse, is that people like you ignore 11 years of great playoff play in favor of a few very limited examples of Dirk "choking".......

And its made worse by the fact that you can't stay consistent. Because if you had been alive to see some of the Finals Bird played or Magic's 84 finals or countless other playoff games and series by some of the best players ever you would know that using a few bad series is a horrible way to create a narrative about a player.



And did you really say Dirk was the most to blame for the loss to the Spurs last year? Are you serious? He got no help at all. Jesus, in game 1 the Mavs barely ****ing won with Dirk going for 36 points on 12 of 14 shooting and we lost a game in which Dirk went for 35 on 13 of 23 shooting and lost the elimination game with dirk going for 33 on 13 of 21 shooting. Did he play perfectly? No, he turned it over a lot in some of those games and he didn't rebound great. But the idea that Dirk deserves the most blame is simply silly and it shows that you just "hate" Dirk. Plain and simple.

I guess Terry shooting 38% and scoring 13 ppg didn't hurt. I guess Butler shooting 43% and turning it over endlessly didn't hurt. I guess Marion being a non factor didn't hurt. I guess Kidd shooting 30% from the field didn't hurt....etc.

But yea, I'm a homer to think that 27/8/3 on 55/57/95 wasn't the MAIN reason the Mavs lost.

[24r2]

^

:facepalm

[DMAVS41]

^

:facepalm

Yep. Hate those facts and evidence. Keep the perception alive. Dirk is a choker. No matter what.

Evidence be damned. Dirk doesn't play well with his back against the wall. What? He actually does and is one of the best elimination game players ever. Don't give me stats. Watch the games.

[24r2]

Yep. Hate those facts and evidence. Keep the perception alive. Dirk is a choker. No matter what.

Evidence be damned. Dirk doesn't play well with his back against the wall. What? He actually does and is one of the best elimination game players ever. Don't give me stats. Watch the games.

lol i didn't read that i just facepalm'd @ you because its been a week since I took a break from ISH and when I got back the first thing I saw was your essay-long reply arguing for dirk :oldlol:

[kentatm]

I disagree, wholeheartedly. DMAVS/GINOBILI232/etc/etc/etc ... is very much a troll.



Define "pretty good questions"... Seriously, read his questions and tell me they are not the most loaded questions with all kinds of pretenses and assumptions and standards he's composing for his own sake..... Comparing Dirk to Shaquille Oneal I mean?

that's troll talk, I don't care how he's setting it up.



I said go watch the games from the 2009-2010 playoffs (ie. DMAVS quoted his stats from that series, I quoted that; him misconstruing my statements is a big part of the reason debating with him is pointless, keep in mind). I'd say, imo, Dirk's collection of games in that series against the Spurs/McDyess/Blair/etc cost the Mavs that series moreso than any other player or person involved on the team. No player takes 100% blame (that's crazy), however I think he takes the most. Carlisle coaching sucked but I also think Dirk played soft or made "errors" in the series that were overall costly, particularly in game 6 I thought Dirk despite stats backed down from pressure late in the game, and in the Game 2 route in on his home court in which he missed 6 of his first 7 shots. It was an example of how, at times, he's come up short under pressure.... Personally, I don't think it was "just adding Tyson Chandler" that changed the way Dirk played in his championship run, he played with more intensity, resolve, experience, and even desperation in the 10-11 run. It'd be one thing to perpetually hate on Dirk, never recognizing his greatness even now after he's won. But greatness is earned - bumping old threads from before it's earned is just dumb and even Dirk supporters fail to give credit to how much Dirk has improved in intangible ways. I got no qualms with being hard on Dirk, because in all honesty, 3 first round exits in 4 years in a players prime is going to look bad and shed some kind of negative light on any team leader.

you are unbelievable

define pretty good questions?

here is what DAMAVS asked

_____________________________________

Don't you feel like you can find a couple bad series for every great player?

Are Kareem and Oscar chokers? Did they not choke losing in 1973 in their first playoff series? They lost as a 60 win team to a 47 win warriors team.

Will you stay consistent?

How about Baylor? Was he a choker?

How about Wilt and West in the 73 finals? Were they chokers?

_____________________________________________




these are perfectly fair questions to ask when it seems that you have different standards for Dirk than you do other players.

You keep saying he lets pressure get to him by bring out the very few times he has played poorly in playoff games. You claim that he is most responsible for Mavs playoff failures when you are almost completely ignoring what other players also did or didn't do.

I am sorry but you are coming off incredibly biased and you have for years now. You never give him credit and always give him blame.

Saying he played way better this year is false. He has always been a killer playoff performer. Denying that makes you look like a damn fool. Can you really not see how incredibly biased you are being?

[Boston C's]

Whoever says dirk or ray are chokers dont know what they are saying

[magnax1]

I think a lot of shooters look like chokers from time to time just because they're never going to be consistent like a guy who scores from getting inside. Ray Allen had a completely shitty playoffs in 08, Dirk had 2 mediocre finals and a couple other poor series, Bird had a mediocre finals in 84 in terms of scoring. You're just always going to see that inconsistency, unless it's a guy like Ray when he was younger, or reggie, who also tries to consistently use his jump shot to get himself inside too. Not always just looking for the shot, but to use it as a tool to get better shots.

[twintowers]

Nice list. Lebron should be coming off the bench, he could add valuable misses from the bench.

well put....:lol

[SCdac]

Don't you feel like you can find a couple bad series for every great player?

Are Kareem and Oscar chokers? Did they not choke losing in 1973 in their first playoff series? They lost as a 60 win team to a 47 win warriors team.

Will you stay consistent?

How about Baylor? Was he a choker?

How about Wilt and West in the 73 finals? Were they chokers?

Dirk is NOT comparable to fricking Kareem Abdul Jabbar, I don't care how much their careers seem to mirror each other. Just completely different players, with completely different resumes, and completely different sets of skills...

How you don't recognize these farcical comparisons as trolling is beyond me.

Also, I don't have the energy or care enough to compare Dirk to players from 50+ years ago. Did you watch Elgin Baylor play in the 60's? Did DMAVS watch him in 60's? to actually understand the complexity and details of game at the time, wouldn't that mean that you guys are like 50+ years old? I'm not going to base shit off of just stats and stories that I'm reading on the internet, without having watched every game (and I know you guys didn't watch every game either, so it's pointless IMO)

To not avoid the basic premise of the question though, the best comparison that comes to mind with Dirk is David Robinson, and yes I thought David choked in some of the biggest series he was in, maybe even worse than Dirk as a whole (but nothing worse than Dirk in 2007, and Robinson generally had worse teammates IMO). His "choking" label, however exaggerated (like Dirk's can be), generally was more warranted than unwarranted. That's how I felt about Dirk going into the 2011 season... Exaggerated at times, but warranted... Watching the way he played at times, I thought he played soft. Not all the time mind you, but enough for me to give him that label.

_____________________________________________



these are perfectly fair questions to ask when it seems that you have different standards for Dirk than you do other players.

Comparing Dirk to a 6-time MVP, 2-time Finals MVP in Kareem is laughable man. Kareem won a championship... his second season in the league!

Comparing them as "chokers", I have seen enough of Kareem to know it just aint true ain't a legit comparison.

Comparing multiple champion Shaq losing at 22 years old in his 3rd year in the league... to Dirk losing his 3rd first round in 4 years as a 30+ year old veteran?

Do you honestly find that an accurate comparison and fair questions? .... well, pass me what you're smoking man.

can't tell if you actually agree with his line of questioning, or if you're just going with it to go with it...

However fair you deem those questions, you siding with this tool is basically the equivalent of, say, me siding with that Sin Jackal character on something Spurs related... and that dude was full of shit and obsessed with his own rigid opinions just like DMAVS... and you latching on to one of their half-hearted and skewed arguments probably only because it's pro-Dirk is telling and weak coming from somebody who's been on this board from the beginning of it and doesn't need to be bolstered by a troll. better than that I thought... idk



You keep saying he lets pressure get to him by bring out the very few times he has played poorly in playoff games. You claim that he is most responsible for Mavs playoff failures when you are almost completely ignoring what other players also did or didn't do.

I am sorry but you are coming off incredibly biased and you have for years now. You never give him credit and always give him blame.

"Never" give him credit? "Always" give him the blame? Now you're just reading what you want to read, and letting some kind of disliking of me cloud your perception of my posts. He's the best and most important player on the team, so naturally he's going to get most of the blame (factoring the way he plays as well, his lack of defensive enforcement, tendency to resort to jumpers in the past, and how bad his teams weren't) and get most of the credit in wins. That's basketball man, and he's not the first player to ever be criticized heavily... Are you trying to say he deserves none of the blame for any of the losses? Or deserves the least amount of blame for every lost series? I know what I think, interested in what you think, not interested in what DMAVS thinks at all. dude is a pure Dirk nut-hugger to the Nth degree.


Saying he played way better this year is false. He has always been a killer playoff performer. Denying that makes you look like a damn fool. Can you really not see how incredibly biased you are being?

"Always been a killer playoff performer"? I respectfully disagree on that, and disagree on him not playing better this season. Always been an elite scorer? yes, but it's not all about his points total that accurately describes his play (hence me saying, "go watch the games" in reference to last season, there's more to games than TS% and shit). He puts up 25-30 point games with regularity? yes, but so did losing players like Malone (etc), only a handful of times (particularly most of the 2006 run) have I felt that "killer" attitude to the extent Dirk exhibited in the 2010-2011 run. As mentioned, he played with more resolve, in instances where he (and his team) might have faltered before I felt like he stepped up, did the opposite, and lead by example. He might not be in his athletic prime anymore and able to play as many minutes, but his post up game was probably the best I've ever seen it, and his passing was noticeably crisp and efficient as well. Dirk was more guardable earlier in his career IMO, and it had less to do with a particular defender and more to do with him. Wasn't as savvy, wasn't as forceful, and as mentioned his low-post game was almost non-existant compared to now.

[BigBalla44]

PG: Magic Johnson
SG: Michael Jordan
SF: Larry Bird
PF: Tim Duncan
C: Bill Russell


/Thread

[marion706]

PG: Chauncey Billups
SG: Joe Johnson
SF: Vince Carter
PF: Dirk Nowitzki
C: Dwight Howard

Agree with the list?
:wtf: 1bad playoff series hes on the all choke team

[Marv_Albert]

EPIC FAIL THREAD

[04mzwach]

Lebron James recently

[DMAVS41]

Dirk is NOT comparable to fricking Kareem Abdul Jabbar, I don't care how much their careers seem to mirror each other. Just completely different players, with completely different resumes, and completely different sets of skills...

How you don't recognize these farcical comparisons as trolling is beyond me.

Also, I don't have the energy or care enough to compare Dirk to players from 50+ years ago. Did you watch Elgin Baylor play in the 60's? Did DMAVS watch him in 60's? to actually understand the complexity and details of game at the time, wouldn't that mean that you guys are like 50+ years old? I'm not going to base shit off of just stats and stories that I'm reading on the internet, without having watched every game (and I know you guys didn't watch every game either, so it's pointless IMO)

To not avoid the basic premise of the question though, the best comparison that comes to mind with Dirk is David Robinson, and yes I thought David choked in some of the biggest series he was in, maybe even worse than Dirk as a whole (but nothing worse than Dirk in 2007, and Robinson generally had worse teammates IMO). His "choking" label, however exaggerated (like Dirk's can be), generally was more warranted than unwarranted. That's how I felt about Dirk going into the 2011 season... Exaggerated at times, but warranted... Watching the way he played at times, I thought he played soft. Not all the time mind you, but enough for me to give him that label.

_____________________________________________




Comparing Dirk to a 6-time MVP, 2-time Finals MVP in Kareem is laughable man. Kareem won a championship... his second season in the league!

Comparing them as "chokers", I have seen enough of Kareem to know it just aint true ain't a legit comparison.

Comparing multiple champion Shaq losing at 22 years old in his 3rd year in the league... to Dirk losing his 3rd first round in 4 years as a 30+ year old veteran?

Do you honestly find that an accurate comparison and fair questions? .... well, pass me what you're smoking man.

can't tell if you actually agree with his line of questioning, or if you're just going with it to go with it...

However fair you deem those questions, you siding with this tool is basically the equivalent of, say, me siding with that Sin Jackal character on something Spurs related... and that dude was full of shit and obsessed with his own rigid opinions just like DMAVS... and you latching on to one of their half-hearted and skewed arguments probably only because it's pro-Dirk is telling and weak coming from somebody who's been on this board from the beginning of it and doesn't need to be bolstered by a troll. better than that I thought... idk



"Never" give him credit? "Always" give him the blame? Now you're just reading what you want to read, and letting some kind of disliking of me cloud your perception of my posts. He's the best and most important player on the team, so naturally he's going to get most of the blame (factoring the way he plays as well, his lack of defensive enforcement, tendency to resort to jumpers in the past, and how bad his teams weren't) and get most of the credit in wins. That's basketball man, and he's not the first player to ever be criticized heavily... Are you trying to say he deserves none of the blame for any of the losses? Or deserves the least amount of blame for every lost series? I know what I think, interested in what you think, not interested in what DMAVS thinks at all. dude is a pure Dirk nut-hugger to the Nth degree.



"Always been a killer playoff performer"? I respectfully disagree on that, and disagree on him not playing better this season. Always been an elite scorer? yes, but it's not all about his points total that accurately describes his play (hence me saying, "go watch the games" in reference to last season, there's more to games than TS% and shit). He puts up 25-30 point games with regularity? yes, but so did losing players like Malone (etc), only a handful of times (particularly most of the 2006 run) have I felt that "killer" attitude to the extent Dirk exhibited in the 2010-2011 run. As mentioned, he played with more resolve, in instances where he (and his team) might have faltered before I felt like he stepped up, did the opposite, and lead by example. He might not be in his athletic prime anymore and able to play as many minutes, but his post up game was probably the best I've ever seen it, and his passing was noticeably crisp and efficient as well. Dirk was more guardable earlier in his career IMO, and it had less to do with a particular defender and more to do with him. Wasn't as savvy, wasn't as forceful, and as mentioned his low-post game was almost non-existant compared to now.


You are simply a biased Dirk hater. Stop calling me a Dirk homer for saying he's not now and should never have been labeled a choker.

Again, you simply refuse to hold other players to the same standards. You focus on Kareem of course. How about Barkley? How about Malone? How about Stockton? How about Shaq until he won? How about Hakeem until he won?

Do you realize that Hakeem did not win a title until his 10th year in the league?

Do you realize that I've listed example after example for even the greatest of the greats? Tim Duncan, by your standards, has choked many times and let the pressure get to him.

Jesus man, you go as far to say that Dirk choked in game 2 of the first round last year. That him going 1-7 to start the game was the pressure getting to him. Its absurd.

Sometimes players play poorly. I think you are confusing "clutch" with how good a player actually is.

Dirk isn't a top 10 player of all time. He's a top 20 player of all time. Dirk has faults in his game and has some black marks on his career that will ultimately prevent him from being in the bird/duncan/shaq/hakeem range as a player.

That is what you are talking about. And I agree with that. However, you are calling arguably the most clutch player of this era and one of the best playoff performers in the history of the game a choker.

Its absurd. And what is worse is that you seem to use a very limited sample of evidence to make your claims. You claim Dirk is not good with his back against the wall.....then when you are provided with evidence that shows he's actually one of the best ever you simply avoid it and say:

"watch the games"

Like I said before. Am I biased? Sure. I readily admit that. Although that doesn't make me wrong. You act like I'm saying Dirk is the 5th best player ever and the most clutch player ever.

I think Dirk is somewhere in the 15 to 20 range....as many many many others do with no bias at all....and i think Dirk is an all time great playoff performer and very clutch.

Are you biased? Sure. You don't admit it and you are taking the more absurd stance here.

Taking the stance that Dirk just all of a sudden this year became clutch is a joke and ignores so much evidence since 2003. But that is what you do best. Just ignore everything.

[Jordan23GOAT]

Chauncey is pretty dang clutch my man.