Is Gasol a product of Kobe?

[gpfanz]

Or they are perfect compliments to each other?

[Yung D-Will]

Both.

Mostly they're a perfect complement for each other but I think Gasol does benefit from the constant pressure defenses have to put on Kobe.

[sbw19]

In terms of production? Slightly. In terms of winning? Neither won anything on his own. In terms of skills? No.

[w00terz]

He was a 20/10 guy before Kobe. With that said, Gasol is partially a product of Kobe just like Kobe is partially a product of Gasol.

[DwightHowardMVP]

He was a 20/10 guy before Kobe. With that said, Gasol is partially a product of Kobe just like Kobe is partially a product of Gasol.
Yes, Gasol is a product of Kobe.

Just look at the numbers. All Pau's numbers have become significantly better.

He was a 1x all star in his forst 7 years now he's a back to back all-star.

Kobe has also turned him into a aggressive player
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIbBRS58-Qk

Pau used to be weal and frail. Now he holds his own against KG,

[bballer]

Gasol benefits from Kobe.

[Duncan21formvp]

Or they are perfect compliments to each other?

No. Gasol leads the team in Win Shares and PER and was an allstar before ever playing with Kobe and won Gold Medal before ever playing with Kobe against the Likes of Wade, Lebron, Melo, etc.

[gpfanz]

No. Gasol leads the team in Win Shares and PER and was an allstar before ever playing with Kobe and won Gold Medal before ever playing with Kobe against the Likes of Wade, Lebron, Melo, etc.

What is Win shares and PER???

[Duncan21formvp]

What is Win shares and PER???

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html

WS
Win Shares (available since the 1951-52 season in the NBA); an estimate of the number of wins contributed by a player.


Basically the player on the team that helped win the most for that season.


PER
Player Efficiency Rating In John's words, "The PER sums up all a player's positive accomplishments, subtracts the negative accomplishments, and returns a per-minute rating of a player's performance."


So both are based on a player's performance as an individual.

[Calabis]

Both.

Mostly they're a perfect complement for each other but I think Gasol does benefit from the constant pressure defenses have to put on Kobe.

:cheers: This^^^^

[FormerSunsFan]

Playing around great players makes you greater or at least makes you step up your game.

Kobe benefited from playing with Shaq and playing in meaningful games so early in his career, one of the reasons he far surpassed AI/Tmac/VC. If he had started out in Charlotte or New Jersey he wouldn't have gotten such a head start on greatness.

Look at Rondo. Nobody was checking for him. Then he plays with the big three and now the perception of him his far greater.

I believe it goes both ways--Jordan didn't win without/before Pippen, but Jordan elevated Pippens game. Shaq owes Kobe a lot and vice versa.

We all know Gasol would be a career loser if he had stayed in Memphis.

[game3524]

Somewhat, he is also a product of the triangle offense. This nothing to take away from Pau, but he fits the system like a glove.

[gpfanz]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html

WS
Win Shares (available since the 1951-52 season in the NBA); an estimate of the number of wins contributed by a player.


Basically the player on the team that helped win the most for that season.


PER
Player Efficiency Rating In John's words, "The PER sums up all a player's positive accomplishments, subtracts the negative accomplishments, and returns a per-minute rating of a player's performance."


So both are based on a player's performance as an individual.

You mean statistics ok...

[Juges8932]

No. Gasol leads the team in Win Shares and PER and was an allstar before ever playing with Kobe and won Gold Medal before ever playing with Kobe against the Likes of Wade, Lebron, Melo, etc.

Lol, you have no shame.

[NBASTATMAN]

Or they are perfect compliments to each other?


They compliment each other perfectly.. Gasol can dominate games without THE BALL and Kobe needs the ball to dominate.. Marriage made in Jerry West's office.. LOL.... Let me remind everyone that the Lakers without KOBE AND BYNUM were great with Gasol running the show....

[The Gr8 Debate]

Gasol was already a top player he was not talked about because he was in memphis, but he lead some good, not great teams to 50 win seasons but i feel playing on the lakers with kobe has helped he mentally and that's a underrated
attribute playing against kg tim duncan scola dwight in those series made him grow also he had to toughen up same as dirk had to

[gpfanz]

They compliment each other perfectly.. Gasol can dominate games without THE BALL and Kobe needs the ball to dominate.. Marriage made in Jerry West's office.. LOL.... Let me remind everyone that the Lakers without KOBE AND BYNUM were great with Gasol running the show....

Due to Gasol's high basketball IQ..

[Allstar24]

Pau is not a product of Kobe but he has benefited tremendously by playing with an all-time great player. People thought his stats would go down playing with a "ballhog" like Kobe but it's been the opposite. Pau wasn't known for being a winner until coming to LA...playing with Kobe and the Lakers under this system has helped him elevate his game and go from being a good player to a great one.

[amfirst]

I don't know about product, but who ever joins the Lakers has elevated their game. Kobe draws so much attention that it leave a lot of guys open.

Defense are built around stopping Kobe, so when someone besides Kobe steps up they don't know what to do.

[Disaprine]

Both.

Mostly they're a perfect complement for each other but I think Gasol does benefit from the constant pressure defenses have to put on Kobe.
pretty much this

[wang4three]

Yes. I'm not a Kobe fanboy, but Gasol's work pre-Kobe was unimpressive. Now people think he's the best big in the game.. Yeah, he's not.

[bsyde82]

probably not so much in terms of his game, but definitely so in terms of his toughness and aggressiveness.

[catch24]

A mix with Kobe/Lakers system. Sh*t, look at Ariza last year and now...:oldlol:

[Thom.Yorke]

Gasol is a product of the lakers.... Lakers actually develop players, I'm sure he's worked with kareem and other trainers to elevate his game...


2008 Gasol was good but not great.
2009 & 2010 Gasol was great and he is a legit top 3 "big men"

Duncan KG Dirk Dwight are all elite, people just like certain players and their game/style.

[ginobli2311]

In terms of production? Slightly. In terms of winning? Neither won anything on his own. In terms of skills? No.

This.

Gasol's efficiency increased because he went from a bad team without another big to a great team with another big.
Gasol was already an elite player in memphis. nobody know because he didn't have the chance to win in the playoffs.

[Showtime]

He's the exact same player he was in Memphis, only he's the #2 instead of the primary guy. Kobe didn't make him an all star. He didn't make him a top international player. He didn't make him a great passer, or post player, or skilled. Gasol is showcasing his talent on a bigger stage, and only people who never saw him think Kobe made him. Pau is in a good situation and was a perfect fit because of the type of player he was.

[ginobli2311]

A mix with Kobe/Lakers system. Sh*t, look at Ariza last year and now...:oldlol:

in the 07 season for orlando ariza averaged:

9 points 4.4 boards 1 assist on 54% from the field in 22 minutes per game

in the 09 season for the lakers ariza averaged:

9 points 4.3 rebounds 1.8 assists on 46% from the field in 24 minutes per game


i hardly think we can credit the lakers or kobe for anything with ariza.

[KobeDaMamba]

in the 07 season for orlando ariza averaged:

9 points 4.4 boards 1 assist on 54% from the field in 22 minutes per game

in the 09 season for the lakers ariza averaged:

9 points 4.3 rebounds 1.8 assists on 46% from the field in 24 minutes per game


i hardly think we can credit the lakers or kobe for anything with ariza.
Mind mentioning his playoff stats from last year and how money he was from deep? Ariza's 3 pt shooting was instrumental to our success last year. Lots of looks came from the attention Kobe drew and Ariza did his job. His perimeter defense was solid too. His heart, hustle and effort was never questioned either. There's no question Ariza benefitted from the Lakers' system and the attention Mamba drew. This was evident in the playoffs. We all saw how he did with H-Town this year. 39% from the field isn't getting it done. He was inefficient because he cant create his own shot. And that's what they wanted him to do.

[TROLL_HUNTER]

He's the exact same player he was in Memphis, only he's the #2 instead of the primary guy. Kobe didn't make him an all star. He didn't make him a top international player. He didn't make him a great passer, or post player, or skilled. Gasol is showcasing his talent on a bigger stage, and only people who never saw him think Kobe made him. Pau is in a good situation and was a perfect fit because of the type of player he was.

95% this.

the remaining 5% is him being more aggressive than he was in Memphis. That is the product of playing for a winning team instead of a constant loser back in Memphis.

[Fatal9]

Just look at Gasol's dramatic rise right after the trade. This is while he was still learning and getting comfortable with the triangle...

before trade with Memphis: 18.9 ppg on 50.1% (39 games)
after trade to LA: 18.8 ppg on 58.9% (27 games)

:eek:

[KobeDaMamba]

Gasol would/was be a great player regardless of where he plays. He got more attention in LA, naturally. Also, anyone acting like he didn't benefit from the triangle and less amount of defensive pressure is a misinformed person. Look at his efficiency and you'll see what I'm talkin' about.

[ginobli2311]

Mind mentioning his playoff stats from last year and how money he was from deep? Ariza's 3 pt shooting was instrumental to our success last year. Lots of looks came from the attention Kobe drew and Ariza did his job. His perimeter defense was solid too. His heart, hustle and effort was never questioned either. There's no question Ariza benefitted from the Lakers' system and the attention Mamba drew. This was evident in the playoffs. We all saw how he did with H-Town this year. 39% from the field isn't getting it done. He was inefficient because he cant create his own shot. And that's what they wanted him to do.

ok. i agree.

but ariza would greatly benefit from playing with any good team. the thunder,the mavs, the celtics, the cavs.....on and on. he's going to get much better looks with all of those teams and he's going to be able to focus more on defense with all of those teams as well because he has less responsibility offensively.

do you understand? the lakers/kobe did not do anything special. ariza would greatly benefit from playing with any star player and any good team.

stop trying to credit kobe/lakers with making players good......its a joke.

[KobeDaMamba]

ok. i agree.

but ariza would greatly benefit from playing with any good team. the thunder,the mavs, the celtics, the cavs.....on and on. he's going to get much better looks with all of those teams and he's going to be able to focus more on defense with all of those teams as well because he has less responsibility offensively.

do you understand? the lakers/kobe did not do anything special. ariza would greatly benefit from playing with any star player and any good team.

stop trying to credit kobe/lakers with making players good......its a joke.
I have no idea what you're babbling about.

in the 07 season for orlando ariza averaged:

9 points 4.4 boards 1 assist on 54% from the field in 22 minutes per game

in the 09 season for the lakers ariza averaged:

9 points 4.3 rebounds 1.8 assists on 46% from the field in 24 minutes per game


i hardly think we can credit the lakers or kobe for anything with ariza.
I was merely stating that Ariza's INCREASE IN EFFICIENCY had to do with the system he was in. Mentioning Ariza's credit had nothing to do with Kobe and crew is completely false and you damn well know it. It may be true that he would see an increase in impact in other systems as well but that's not what we're arguing about.

[Captain Kirk]

Playing around great players makes you greater or at least makes you step up your game.

Kobe benefited from playing with Shaq and playing in meaningful games so early in his career, one of the reasons he far surpassed AI/Tmac/VC. If he had started out in Charlotte or New Jersey he wouldn't have gotten such a head start on greatness.

Look at Rondo. Nobody was checking for him. Then he plays with the big three and now the perception of him his far greater.

I believe it goes both ways--Jordan didn't win without/before Pippen, but Jordan elevated Pippens game. Shaq owes Kobe a lot and vice versa.

We all know Gasol would be a career loser if he had stayed in Memphis.

That sounds about right in regards to this topic.

[el_locoteee]

About the same for both players (last years before joining forces)

Gasol w/ out Kobe as the man with a decent team to mediocre. 3 NBA playoff trip first round exit, one awful season after he join late the team due to the fracture he suffer in international competition, with a couple of 50 win team. Around a 20 - 10 guy

Kobe w/ out Gasol as a man with a decent to mediocre team. 2 NBA playoff trip first round exit, one Lottery team. arround 30 and 6 player.

After Joining Forces 1 NBA Finals. 2 NBA Championship with about the same production.

[ShaqAttack3234]

No, his efficiency benefits from playing with an elite player and facing less defensive pressure, but he was a very good player before Kobe. And it's also obvious that Gasol isn't a championship-caliber first option so he ended up in a role that he fit much better.

He averaged 20/9/2 with 4.6 apg on 50% shooting while leading a cast of solid role players to 49 wins in 2006. The following year, he averaged 21/10 with 2+ bpg and 3.4 apg on 54% shooting that was with him coming back late and averaging around 25 mpg early.

[laronprofit9]

It's disgusting how many people try to overrate Gasol to bring down Kobe.

Just how it's disgusting how many people try to overrate Pippen to bring down Jordan.

Mainly Lebron, Wade, MJ fans, and Kobe haters are doing this.

Gasol only led his team to 50 wins once.

03-04 Memphis Grizzlies. (50-32)

Pau Gasol 17.7 ppg 7.7 rpg 2.5 apg 48FG% 48eFG% 54TS%

Teammates:

James Posey 13.7 ppg 4.9 rpg 1.5 apg 48FG% 55eFG% 61TS%

Bonzi Wells 12.3 ppg 3.4 rpg 1.8 apg 44FG% 45eFG% 49TS%

Mike Miller 11.1 ppg 3.3 rpg 3.6 apg 44FG% 50eFG% 53TS%

Jason Williams 10.9 ppg 2.0 rpg 6.8 apg 41FG% 49eFG% 52TS%

Lorenzen Wright 9.4 ppg 6.8 rpg 1.1 apg 44FG% 44eFG% 47TS%

Stromile Swift 9.4 ppg 4.9 rpg 0.5 apg 47FG% 47eFG% 53TS%

Shane Battier 8.5 ppg 3.8 rpg 1.3 apg 45FG% 51eFG% 54TS%

so...

you're saying a guy who put up 17.7ppg 7.7 rpg 48%FG is a superstar who led his team to 50 wins.

PLEASE:

Gasol had great teammates around him that complimented him well. He had 4 teammates averaging double-figure points.. 3 solid bench players capable of putting over 9 points a game.

Gasol is more comparable to someone like Chris Kaman or Elton Brand than KG or Duncan. While being in Memphis. There was a reason why no one considered him elite. He wasn't.

You could argue Gasol was given a better situation than Garnett in Minnesota, and Duncan in 2003. Yet Gasol didn't even win a SINGLE GAME in the playoffs let a lone a series.

Kobe would've managed to win at least one game with that squad Gasol was given in the playoffs.

Kobe is a superstar.

Gasol is not.

Though Gasol is a very good player. And definitely an all-star level.

[macpierce]

No, his efficiency benefits from playing with an elite player and facing less defensive pressure, but he was a very good player before Kobe. And it's also obvious that Gasol isn't a championship-caliber first option so he ended up in a role that he fit much better.

He averaged 20/9/2 with 4.6 apg on 50% shooting while leading a cast of solid role players to 49 wins in 2006. The following year, he averaged 21/10 with 2+ bpg and 3.4 apg on 54% shooting that was with him coming back late and averaging around 25 mpg early.
damn even this hater put ginob back in his hole OUCH

[Mr. Jabbar]

A mix with Kobe/Lakers system. Sh*t, look at Ariza last year and now...:oldlol:

this

[ginobli2311]

damn even this hater put ginob back in his hole OUCH

what are you talking about. i completely agree with that. you people are so dumb.

gasol's efficiency would have improved if he had gone to any team with a better player or a better team. for example the mavs, the thunder, the cavs, the heat, the suns, the jazz, the magic, the spurs....and probably others.

of course he got more efficient and became a better rebounder/defender. he could focus on defense and rebounding and choose his spots on offense more because he was now the 2nd option and had a very good team and coach around him.

what player would not get better?

[ShaqAttack3234]

damn even this hater put ginob back in his hole OUCH

Hater? Who do I hate? :confusedshrug:

[ginobli2311]

Hater? Who do I hate? :confusedshrug:

nothing. the dude is a moron.

we were completely agreeing with each other and the idiot didn't realize it.

[catch24]

in the 07 season for orlando ariza averaged:

9 points 4.4 boards 1 assist on 54% from the field in 22 minutes per game

in the 09 season for the lakers ariza averaged:

9 points 4.3 rebounds 1.8 assists on 46% from the field in 24 minutes per game

Yeah if you look at it from a straws mans point of view. His 3PT%'s all rose significantly. 28-31 and then last year (the 08-09 season) to 33%. His PPG during the post season (where he was absolute money) was 11 on 50%FG shooting and 47% from 3. So again, Kobe and Phil's offense DID make Ariza BETTER.

[ginobli2311]

Yeah if you look at it from a straws mans point of view. His 3PT%'s all rose significantly. 28-31 and then last year (the 08-09 season) to 33%. His PPG was 11 on 50%FG shooting 47% from 3. So again, Kobe and Phil's offense DID make Ariza BETTER.

no....it didn't. ariza just didn't shoot threes in orlando. when he got minutes in orlando he put up slightly better numbers than he did for the lakers. my god this is out of control.

ariza shot 33% from three this year for the rockets and ariza shot 32% for the lakers in 09. in 09 ariza was only taking 2.3 threes per game...meaning that the majority of those shots were very good. in 10 ariza shot 5.7 threes per game and still shot a higher percentage. as volume increases efficiency almost always decreases. even more of a reason the lakers did not make ariza better.

ariza simply went from a good team in 09 playing limited minutes with few responsibilities to an average team in 10 with added duties and 12 more minutes a game.

stop the kobe/laker nut hugging.....it gets so ****ing old.

of course ariza's efficiency went down. he went from taking 7 shots in LA to taking 14 shots in houston while taking over double the amount of threes. he shot 46% in LA and 39% in houston. when you factor in twice as many shots per game and over twice as many threes per game that sounds about right.

LOL.......learn the ****ing game.

[Yung D-Will]

damn even this hater put ginob back in his hole OUCH
:hammerhead:

[game3524]

Ariza did so well last year because he played in a system that suits his strengths. He is not a player who can create his own shot, so playing in a system that is built around ball movement to get open looks helped him alot.

[tpols]

in the 07 season for orlando ariza averaged:

9 points 4.4 boards 1 assist on 54% from the field in 22 minutes per game

in the 09 season for the lakers ariza averaged:

9 points 4.3 rebounds 1.8 assists on 46% from the field in 24 minutes per game


i hardly think we can credit the lakers or kobe for anything with ariza.
:oldlol: :roll: this is a typical biased ginobli comparison lol. nothing could be further from the truth.

[catch24]

no....it didn't. ariza just didn't shoot threes in orlando. when he got minutes in orlando he put up slightly better numbers than he did for the lakers. my god this is out of control.

Yes, it did moron. Learn to count kid. His %'s back that up. Specifically in the Playoffs. His FG% dipped (yes his PPG went up +3 but who the hell did HOU have as a go to scorer last season?). 47% in the playoffs from 3 to 33% from this season. Can you find your brain?

[ginobli2311]

:oldlol: :roll: this is a typical biased ginobli comparison lol. nothing could be further from the truth.

you just misunderstand the game so much.

listen carefully. of course playing for phil jackson and for a great team with a great player helped ariza. its obvious.

but that would be the case at every spot ariza would go with a great player and a good team.

do you not understand logic? ariza went from taking 7 shots a game and 2 threes to taking 14 shots a game and 6 threes. of course his efficiency is going to go way down. he's not that good. he's a role player that should play 30 minutes a game.

[ginobli2311]

Yes, it did moron. Learn to count kid. His %'s back that up. Specifically in the Playoffs. His FG% dipped (yes his PPG went up +3 but who the hell did HOU have as a go to scorer last season?).

jesus ****ing christ.

ariza got worse because he want from a role player to a player with actual responsibilities. he got worse because his team was not as good. if ariza had left and gone to the cavs or mavericks or heat or thunder. or any team with a great player.....his numbers would have stayed very similar.

but ariza went to a team that needed him to do more than he is capable of.

[Fatal9]

As if evidence of Kobe spoonfeeding Ariza wide open looks over and over again wasn't enough for some clowns to believe he made him better....lets ask Ariza himself...

http://www.ocregister.com/sports/bryant-59921-ariza-gasol.html

Kobe's coaching keyed title


"I used it like it was the Bible," Ariza said.

What we were talking about was the shooting-practice program given to Ariza entering the summer before this season by one Kobe Bryant.

The meaning of the gesture to Ariza - and its net effect in transforming his jump shot and thus this Lakers championship team - makes it the quintessence of the latter-day Bryant as a teammate.

...

It pushed Bryant forward even further in prioritizing his teammates' development. Sharing his personal shooting program with Ariza was akin to unlocking the vault.

"Getting that from him? Kind of cool, kind of cool," Ariza said. "Because before I got here, you always hear how he's this certain type of person. And when I got here, you realize he's not what everybody says he is.

"I just got in the gym every day and worked. I used what he told me, used some things that he gave me to do. And I just worked."

It worked. Ariza had made nine 3-pointers in his first four NBA seasons. This season, he made 61 as a prelude to his 47.6 percent playoff marksmanship that Bynum described with bugged-out eyes this way: "His shooting is ridiculous at this point."

....

Bryant essentially taught Sasha Vujacic how to study scouting video, resulting in the gunning Vujacic evolving into a designated defensive stopper in the playoffs. Bryant would text-message Gasol at 3 a.m. with reminders about staying tough-minded, and Gasol came away from the season acknowledging that he was bursting with pride that he fought through this time.

[catch24]

LOL @ this clown talking/asking people to "learn the game". Take your own advice.

"Kobe has no case over Wade alltime". Yeah, we all remember that gem :oldlol:

[catch24]

jesus ****ing christ.

ariza got worse because he want from a role player to a player with actual responsibilities. he got worse because his team was not as good. if ariza had left and gone to the cavs or mavericks or heat or thunder. or any team with a great player.....his numbers would have stayed very similar.

but ariza went to a team that needed him to do more than he is capable of.

Still haven't found your brain? Since you're not great with math, refer to fatals quotes.

[SinJackal]

Gasol is a product of playing with 1-2 other dangerous big men at the same time. It's not like you can double Gasol when Bynum and Odom are on the floor too. Plus there's Kobe as well.

Why do you guys refuse to give anyone but Kobe credit for what happens with the Lakers? Christ that's annoying.

Is Phil Jackson a product of Kobe too? The Lakers' cheerleaders are so hot because of Kobe as well. There's purple on the Lakers uniform because Kobe makes them purple.

[ginobli2311]

LOL @ this clown talking asking people to "learn the game". Take your own advice.

"Kobe has no case for Wade alltime". Yeah, we all remember that gem :oldlol:

never said that. i said kobe has no case over wade if you strip them of their titles and compare the last 7 years. which is true.

as for ariza.

playoff PER for the lakers last year.....14.7
regular season PER for the rockets this year.....13.3
regular season PER for the magic in 07......16.2

PER is by far the best measure of what a player is doing and how they are playing. i hardly think a 1.4 dip is worth going crazy over when you consider the circumstances ariza was in this year in houston. you know....taking more than double the amount of threes and double the amount of shots.

but of course PER is flawed but your standards of measure aren't. ****ing moron.

[ginobli2311]

Still haven't found your brain? Since you're not great with math, refer to fatals quotes.

i'm not disputing that. i'm saying that it would have been true on any good team with a great player.

moron.

[catch24]

i'm not disputing that. i'm saying that it would have been true on any good team with a great player.

moron.

You were disputing that just a second ago, idiot. "No he wasn't a product of Lakers/Kobe". Those quotes alone refute you.

It's OK to admit you're wrong :cheers:

[tpols]

you just misunderstand the game so much.

listen carefully. of course playing for phil jackson and for a great team with a great player helped ariza. its obvious.

but that would be the case at every spot ariza would go with a great player and a good team.

do you not understand logic? ariza went from taking 7 shots a game and 2 threes to taking 14 shots a game and 6 threes. of course his efficiency is going to go way down. he's not that good. he's a role player that should play 30 minutes a game.
that wasn't the question my man... stay inbounds next time...

[catch24]

never said that. i said kobe has no case over wade if you strip them of their titles and compare the last 7 years. which is true.

And that's true for all players with rings who are top 10-15 players of all time. Irrelevant. But yeah, you definitely were trolling hard that day, just like you are now.




playoff PER for the lakers last year.....14.7
regular season PER for the rockets this year.....13.3
regular season PER for the magic in 07......16.2

Adam Morrison averaged a 15 PER this season. According to PER Neil Johnston, Bob Petit, and David Robinson are top 10 players of all time. Again, for your slow working dome, Ariza's 3PT%'s (shooting 3's was what he was known for besides his D) were SIGNIFICANTLY better under the Lakers system. Compare them to his Orlando years and compare his Playoff season last season to the Rockets this year.

Try again kid.

[ginobli2311]

And that's true for all players with rings who are top 10-15 players of all time. Irrelevant. But yeah, you definitely were trolling hard that day, just like you are now.





Adam Morrison averaged a 15 PER this season. According to PER Neil Johnston, Bob Petit, and David Robinson are top 10 players of all time. Again, for your slow working dome, Ariza's 3PT%'s (shooting 3's was what he was known for besides his D) were SIGNIFICANTLY better under the Lakers system. Compare them to his Orlando years and compare his Playoff season last season to the Rockets this year.

Try again kid.


PER is not the end all be all. but its a good indication of how well a player is playing.

now. you are using an extremely small sample size of ariza in the 09 playoffs in which he made 40 threes out of 84. what happened in the regular season? ariza made 61 out of 191.

do you know how flawed your statistical analysis is? your sample size is far too small. there are far too many variables. have you ever considered that ariza just got hot for 84 shots?

seriously dude. you don't have a clue.

[ginobli2311]

that wasn't the question my man... stay inbounds next time...

the question was..."is gasol a prodcut of kobe?"

and the answer is a firm NO. not at all. just like ariza was not a product of kobe.

[SinJackal]

And that's true for all players with rings who are top 10-15 players of all time. Irrelevant. But yeah, you definitely were trolling hard that day, just like you are now.





Adam Morrison averaged a 15 PER this season. According to PER Neil Johnston, Bob Petit, and David Robinson are top 10 players of all time. Again, for your slow working dome, Ariza's 3PT%'s (shooting 3's was what he was known for besides his D) were SIGNIFICANTLY better under the Lakers system. Compare them to his Orlando years and compare his Playoff season last season to the Rockets this year.

Try again kid.

Uh, what would be wrong with David Robinson being a top 10 for PER? Do you not remember how insane he was his half a dozen seasons? He was a GOAT in the making before he blew out his back.

[ginobli2311]

Uh, what would be wrong with David Robinson being a top 10 for PER? Do you not remember how insane he was his half a dozen seasons? He was a GOAT in the making before he blew out his back.

yep.

they think because its not perfect its flawed. PER is so stupid....yet:

jordan / shaq / wilt / kareem / magic / duncan / malone / hakeem /kobe /bird /oscar....are all in the top 20 all time. all the greatest players are all in the top 25.

only bill russell is missing and his game was obviously the toughest to measure.

is it perfect? far from it. but its by far the best measure of overall play that someone has come up with.

[catch24]

Uh, what would be wrong with David Robinson being a top 10 for PER? Do you not remember how insane he was his half a dozen seasons? He was a GOAT in the making before he blew out his back.

Well according to some posters PER is all that matters and is the "true measure" of how someone plays.

[RazorBaLade]

per is useless. embarrassing

[tpols]

what exactly does per take into account?

[catch24]

PER is not the end all be all. but its a good indication of how well a player is playing.

Sure, I guess :confusedshrug:

You made it seem as though PER was infact the end all be all stat a minute ago though.


now. you are using an extremely small sample size of ariza in the 09 playoffs in which he made 40 threes out of 84. what happened in the regular season? ariza made 61 out of 191.

An extremely small sample size, maybe, but he did play all the playoff games last year and you're judged on how well you perform at that stage anyway, so whats your point?

"ariza made 61 out of 191" Which is higher than any of his Orlando seasons.


do you know how flawed your statistical analysis is? your sample size is far too small. there are far too many variables. have you ever considered that ariza just got hot for 84 shots?

No where near as flawed as your theory on what TS% is, and where Wade's career ranking stands, thats for sure. Read the quotes Fatal9 provided, maybe they'll help you.

[RazorBaLade]

Ginobli you can't say that its a small sample size because maybe Ariza got hot for 84 shots because 84 shots in the regular season can be a big difference too, and since its longer a player can get hot for 90 shots twice a season.

[scm5]

never said that. i said kobe has no case over wade if you strip them of their titles and compare the last 7 years. which is true.

as for ariza.

playoff PER for the lakers last year.....14.7
regular season PER for the rockets this year.....13.3
regular season PER for the magic in 07......16.2

PER is by far the best measure of what a player is doing and how they are playing. i hardly think a 1.4 dip is worth going crazy over when you consider the circumstances ariza was in this year in houston. you know....taking more than double the amount of threes and double the amount of shots.

but of course PER is flawed but your standards of measure aren't. ****ing moron.

You are the reason PER is a flawed stat. You use it like the be all, end all of any conversation between players. It's one of many tools used to evaluate a player.

The reason why Ariza's value increased significantly in the FA market was because of his improved 3-point shooting factored in with everything else he provided. When Ariza arrived as a Laker, everyone knew what kind of player he was. He was a hard-nosed defender that could slash very well. Not a shooter. Thus, his higher PER in Orlando. He's a very effective slasher.

When he arrived in LA, Kobe taught him how to shoot. He became an effective shooter, which almost always will decrease your FG% because you will end up taking more jumpers than before, and by nature, jumpers are lower percentage looks than slashing and finishing at the basket.

Ariza's value added as a Laker, under Kobe's tutelage, wasn't a better slashing game, better defense, or improvement as a playmaker, I don't think he improved in any of those areas. It was his improved shooting.

So Ariza added to his game, what most teams want from a role player. He added range, which provides spacing for his team. This made him a more effective role player because his ranged shooting became pretty reliable.

You claim to have coached high school ball. I don't believe it for one second. If you were a coach, you would recognize that what Ariza added to his game as a Laker is worth way more than any increase in PER. He added a whole other dimension/threat to his game which provides utility for the team, not just his stats.

[tpols]

lol people don't get hot for 84 shots...

[KobeDaMamba]

As if evidence of Kobe spoonfeeding Ariza wide open looks over and over again wasn't enough for some clowns to believe he made him better....lets ask Ariza himself...

http://www.ocregister.com/sports/bryant-59921-ariza-gasol.html

Kobe's coaching keyed title


"I used it like it was the Bible," Ariza said.

What we were talking about was the shooting-practice program given to Ariza entering the summer before this season by one Kobe Bryant.

The meaning of the gesture to Ariza - and its net effect in transforming his jump shot and thus this Lakers championship team - makes it the quintessence of the latter-day Bryant as a teammate.

...

It pushed Bryant forward even further in prioritizing his teammates' development. Sharing his personal shooting program with Ariza was akin to unlocking the vault.

"Getting that from him? Kind of cool, kind of cool," Ariza said. "Because before I got here, you always hear how he's this certain type of person. And when I got here, you realize he's not what everybody says he is.

"I just got in the gym every day and worked. I used what he told me, used some things that he gave me to do. And I just worked."

It worked. Ariza had made nine 3-pointers in his first four NBA seasons. This season, he made 61 as a prelude to his 47.6 percent playoff marksmanship that Bynum described with bugged-out eyes this way: "His shooting is ridiculous at this point."

....

Bryant essentially taught Sasha Vujacic how to study scouting video, resulting in the gunning Vujacic evolving into a designated defensive stopper in the playoffs. Bryant would text-message Gasol at 3 a.m. with reminders about staying tough-minded, and Gasol came away from the season acknowledging that he was bursting with pride that he fought through this time.

Game. Set. Match.

[ginobli2311]

Sure, I guess :confusedshrug:

You made it seem as though PER was infact the end all be all stat a minute ago though.



An extremely small sample size, maybe, but he did play all the playoff games last year and you're judged on how well you perform at that stage anyway, so whats your point?

"ariza made 61 out of 191" Which is higher than any of his Orlando seasons.



No where near as flawed as your theory on what TS% is, and where Wade's career ranking stands, thats for sure. Read the quotes Fatal9 provided, maybe they'll help you.


ariza did not take threes in orlando. you can't compare the two years. the better comparison is time with the lakers (including the playoffs)......107 out of 294 for 36%.....and time with the rockets........136 out of 407 for 33%


****ing owned. seriously.....****ing owned. he shot 3% better and took over 100 less threes. he went from a limited role on a championship team to a big role on a bad team and took more than double the amount of threes per game.....and:

HIS PERCENTAGE DROPPED 3 PERCENT....AHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH. 3 ****ING PERCENT.....AHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA

seriously....****ing owned. not shut the **** up and admit you are wrong.

[catch24]

You are the reason PER is a flawed stat. You use it like the be all, end all of any conversation between players. It's one of many tools used to evaluate a player.

Exactly. Watch this tool do another 180 talking about FG% :oldlol:


The reason why Ariza's value increased significantly in the FA market was because of his improved 3-point shooting factored in with everything else he provided. When Ariza arrived as a Laker, everyone knew what kind of player he was. He was a hard-nosed defender that could slash very well. Not a shooter. Thus, his higher PER in Orlando. He's a very effective slasher.

When he arrived in LA, Kobe taught him how to shoot. He became an effective shooter, which almost always will decrease your FG% because you will end up taking more jumpers than before, and by nature, jumpers are lower percentage looks than slashing and finishing at the basket.

Couldn't of said it any better myself.

[scm5]

An extremely small sample size, maybe, but he did play all the playoff games last year and you're judged on how well you perform at that stage anyway, so whats your point?

"ariza made 61 out of 191" Which is higher than any of his Orlando seasons.


Lol...

Or add the two together and Ariza made something like 101 out of 275 which ends up being 36.7%

[ginobli2311]

You are the reason PER is a flawed stat. You use it like the be all, end all of any conversation between players. It's one of many tools used to evaluate a player.

The reason why Ariza's value increased significantly in the FA market was because of his improved 3-point shooting factored in with everything else he provided. When Ariza arrived as a Laker, everyone knew what kind of player he was. He was a hard-nosed defender that could slash very well. Not a shooter. Thus, his higher PER in Orlando. He's a very effective slasher.

When he arrived in LA, Kobe taught him how to shoot. He became an effective shooter, which almost always will decrease your FG% because you will end up taking more jumpers than before, and by nature, jumpers are lower percentage looks than slashing and finishing at the basket.

Ariza's value added as a Laker, under Kobe's tutelage, wasn't a better slashing game, better defense, or improvement as a playmaker, I don't think he improved in any of those areas. It was his improved shooting.

So Ariza added to his game, what most teams want from a role player. He added range, which provides spacing for his team. This made him a more effective role player because his ranged shooting became pretty reliable.

You claim to have coached high school ball. I don't believe it for one second. If you were a coach, you would recognize that what Ariza added to his game as a Laker is worth way more than any increase in PER. He added a whole other dimension/threat to his game which provides utility for the team, not just his stats.


i never said it was the end all be all. in fact, i said the exact opposite.

you are acting like ariza is a great shooter now. he shoots 33% from the three point line. thats far from great. so you are seriously trying to credit kobe for turning an nba player into a 33% three point shooter?

fine.....well done kobe.

where was he with artest this year? why did artest drop over 4% from the three point line playing with kobe while taking less shots?

[catch24]

ariza did not take threes in orlando. you can't compare the two years. the better comparison is time with the lakers (including the playoffs)......107 out of 294 for 34%.....and time with the rockets........136 out of 407 for 33%

He didn't take 3's in Orlando because he wasn't the shooter he BECAME with LA you dolt. Again, read the post Fatal9 left. With the Lakers triangle offense and Kobe's "scoring prescence" this left TA open for those treys.



****ing owned. seriously.....****ing owned. he shot 1% better and took over 100 less threes. he went from a limited role on a championship team to a big role on a bad team and took more than double the amount of threes per game.....and:

And still shot the ball better with the Lakers, even if it was JUST 1%. The fact Kobe gave him tips and Ariza coming out saying he benefited from those tips owns you, not me. Did you flunk math as a kid? Be honest.

[ginobli2311]

He didn't take 3's in Orlando because he wasn't the shooter he BECAME with LA you dolt. Again, read the post Fatal9 left. With the Lakers triangle offense and Kobe's "scoring prescence" this left TA open for those treys.




And still shot the ball better with the Lakers, even if it was JUST 1%. The fact Kobe gave him tips and Ariza coming out saying he benefited from those tips owns you, not me. Did you flunk math as a kid? Be honest.

it was actually 3 percent....typed it wrong on phone.

the increase is exactly what you would expect. why are you so retarded?

do you think that kobe would shot the same percentage if he took 42 shots a game? of course not.

that is basically what happened to ariza. he had to take 14 shots a game in houston. double hat he is used to taking. his drop in percentage is because he took more shots in bad situations. duh


for the last time. my point is that ariza would have shot the ball better for any team that allowed him to play a more limited role and had a great player.

[chazzy]

for the last time. my point is that ariza would have shot the ball better for any team that allowed him to play a more limited role and had a great player.

You can talk about hypotheticals all you want, but fact is, Lakers/Kobe made him better.

[ginobli2311]

You can talk about hypotheticals all you want, but fact is, Lakers/Kobe made him better.

ok fine.

fact is the lakers made artest worse.

[catch24]

it was actually 3 percent....typed it wrong on phone.

the increase is exactly what you would expect. why are you so retarded?

If it's what you "expected" why are arguing he didn't BENEFIT playing for LA and Kobe? :oldlol:




that is basically what happened to ariza. he had to take 14 shots a game in houston. double hat he is used to taking. his drop in percentage is because he took more shots in bad situations. duh

And that's because he's a system player. He's not fit to take on that scoring role (which he wanted to after playing so well with LA).



for the last time. my point is that ariza would have shot the ball better for any team that allowed him to play a more limited role and had a great player.

Wrong. There's no evidence to base that off of. Try again. It happened with LA, and hasn't happened yet, since.

[game3524]

I don't see how this is an argument that Ariza became a better overall player in LA. He was playing in a system that required him to become a better shooter due to all the open looks he would get, so I don't think it is a far cry to say Kobe helped him that regard.

[catch24]

ok fine.

fact is the lakers made artest worse.

Artest wasn't a role player for Houston though kid. LA doesn't need him scoring 20 a night to win--evident by his woeful scoring during the postseason.

[ginobli2311]

If it's what you "expected" why are arguing he didn't BENEFIT playing for LA and Kobe? :oldlol:





And that's because he's a system player. He's not fit to take on that scoring role (which he wanted to after playing so well with LA).




Wrong. There's no evidence to base that off of. Try again. It happened with LA, and hasn't happened yet, since.


agree to disagree. all i can say is that your statistical analysis is seriously flawed because you aren't comparing things properly.

if ariza had a similar role on the rockets or any other team and took a similar number of shots i would agree with you. but a 3% drop off overall in 3 point percentage with an increased role and double the amount of shots per game and more than double the amount of threes per game is well within statistical probability.

sorry.

agree to disagree.

[chazzy]

ok fine.

fact is the lakers made artest worse.

Only if you don't use context, like you beg all of us to do everyday. You're seriously comparing the development of a 23 y/o player to a 30 y/o who never found his rhythm in the triangle, dealt with numerous injury/weight issues throughout the year, and was never known to be a spot up shooter?

[ginobli2311]

Artest wasn't a role player for Houston though kid. LA doesn't need him scoring 20 a night to win--evident by his woeful scoring during the postseason.

artest shot over 4% worse from the three point line with the lakers than he did for the rockets.

fact.....artest got worse.

oh now you want to talk about circumstances.

oh and you assertion that arest wasn't a role player for houston actually makes it worse. if knew anything you would know that as volume increases...efficiency tends to decrease.

artest went from shooting more in houston at a higher rate to shooting less in LA at a lower rate.

[ginobli2311]

Only if you don't use context, like you beg all of us to do everyday. You're seriously comparing the development of a 23 y/o player to a 30 y/o who never found his rhythm in the triangle, dealt with numerous injury/weight issues throughout the year, and was never known to be a spot up shooter?

thats my point. you aren't using context for ariza. why should i use it with artest?

please listen.

ariza took over double the amount of threes per game in houston than he did in LA.

please answer:

would you not expect his 3p% to drop off a little taking more than double the amount of shots and a team that didn't make the playoffs compared to playing a limited role on the championship team?

please answer.

[catch24]

agree to disagree. all i can say is that your statistical analysis is seriously flawed because you aren't comparing things properly.

No where near as flawed as the logic you've used in this thread. As a matter of fact, I'm the one comparing and contrasting players and stats properly ... you're just so terrible at math you don't comprehend to well kiddo.


if ariza had a similar role on the rockets or any other team and took a similar number of shots i would agree with you. but a 3% drop off overall in 3 point percentage with an increased role and double the amount of shots per game and more than double the amount of threes per game is well within statistical probability.

There's a reason why he took the amount of shots, as well as making them, he did with LA. The triangle and Kobe. Someone already left a quote of "what went down" by a notable source. Get it through your brain kid, you have no argument.

[chazzy]

thats my point. you aren't using context for ariza. why should i use it with artest?

please listen.

ariza took over double the amount of threes per game in houston than he did in LA.

please answer:

would you not expect his 3p% to drop off a little taking more than double the amount of shots and a team that didn't make the playoffs compared to playing a limited role on the championship team?

please answer.

Did I say anything about Houston? I'm just talking about the FACT that Ariza became a better player after playing with the Lakers/Kobe, which is evidenced by the contract and role he earned on a different team. There's no disputing the fact that Ariza became a more versatile player after the 08/09 season.

[catch24]

artest shot over 4% worse from the three point line with the lakers than he did for the rockets.

fact.....artest got worse.

Which is irrelevant. LA already has scorers on their team. We brought him in for defense. You're doing 180's again "ginobli".

[ginobli2311]

No where near as flawed as the logic you've used in this thread. As a matter of fact, I'm the one comparing and contrasting players and stats properly ... you're just so terrible at math you don't comprehend to well kiddo.



There's a reason why he took the amount of shots, as well as making them, he did with LA. The triangle and Kobe. Someone already left a quote of "what went down" by a notable source. Get it through your brain kid, you have no argument.

i can't respond to the stupidity you continue to post.

kobe could work with me the rest of my life and i would never be able to shoot over 30% in an nba game from the three point line.

why don't you give ariza some ****ing credit for improving his game. my god....he's a ****ing nba player that shoots 33% from the three point line. thats nothing special to begin with.

why does kobe have to get credited for everything on here. and again......kobe made artest much worse in LA.

so if you want to play this game it goes both ways.

[ginobli2311]

Which is irrelevant. LA already has scorers on their team. We brought him in for defense. You're doing 180's again "ginobli".

sorry. i don't want to be rude. but i can't debate with someone that thinks a 3% increase in 3 point efficiency in a different role with much less shots is enough go crazy over.

i can't do it. you don't know what variables are. so any statistical analysis you do is inherently flawed.

[chazzy]

i can't respond to the stupidity you continue to post.

kobe could work with me the rest of my life and i would never be able to shoot over 30% in an nba game from the three point line.

why don't you give ariza some ****ing credit for improving his game. my god....he's a ****ing nba player that shoots 33% from the three point line. thats nothing special to begin with.

why does kobe have to get credited for everything on here. and again......kobe made artest much worse in LA.

so if you want to play this game it goes both ways.

On the other hand, why is it SO difficult for you to give Kobe some credit for anything, even though you "love" him? I'm sure if we were talking about how Lebron made people better, you wouldn't be saying stuff like "oh yeah well if that guy played with any OTHER star the same thing would happen!!" Your bias shows more and more everyday.

Ariza flat out SAID that playing/practicing with Kobe made him better, how are you arguing this? You know Ariza better than he does?

[catch24]

i can't respond to the stupidity you continue to post.

You can't respond to stupidity because your posts already in itself, are stupid.


kobe could work with me the rest of my life and i would never be able to shoot over 30% in an nba game from the three point line.

Great, but you aren't Ariza. Irrelevant. Don't have time to play your fantasy games kid.


why don't you give ariza some ****ing credit for improving his game. my god....he's a ****ing nba player that shoots 33% from the three point line. thats nothing special to begin with.

Who's not giving Ariza credit, moron? He benefited from playing with the Lakers and Kobe. That doesn't make him any less of a player. Obviously he had to put in the work to BECOME a good 3PT shooter. Shooting 47% through out the course of the playoffs is pretty damn good, though.


why does kobe have to get credited for everything on here. and again......kobe made artest much worse in LA.

It isn't just Kobe. You make it JUST HIM yourself. I've been quoted saying it's been the LAKERS (Phil Jackson and their offense) as well as Kobe. Learn to comprehend child.

[RaceBannana]

Is Gasol a product of Kobe?
No.... when the Lakers got Gasol, he was what? 26 years old?
its not like Kobe took him under his wing from the start of his career.

[catch24]

sorry. i don't want to be rude. but i can't debate with someone that thinks a 3% increase in 3 point efficiency in a different role with much less shots is enough go crazy over.

Sorry, you can't debate with me because you have lost. You're out classed kid. lol @ going crazy over it. I'm merely pointing out he was in fact a better 3PT shooter in LA, that's all

:confusedshrug:

[ginobli2311]

On the other hand, why is it SO difficult for to give Kobe credit for anything, even though you "love" him? I'm sure if we were talking about how Lebron made people better, you wouldn't be saying stuff like "oh yeah well if that guy played with any OTHER star the same thing would happen!!" Your bias shows more and more everyday

i credit kobe with plenty of things. but making other players around him better isn't one of them. he's not a great teammate or a great team player. its difficult to play with kobe.

trust me. you wouldn't hear pau gasol complaining about the lack of team play if it wasn't a beating at times.

i credit kobe for being one of the 12 best players ever and i credit him for taking great circumstances and capitalizing on them. i credit him for carrying the lakers in the playoff at times during the shaq/kobe three peat. i credit kobe when he plays a masterful game like he did in game 6 of the nba finals.

i give credit where credit is due.

the simple fact is that kobe did not make gasol any better than he already was.....and his impact on ariza is tiny at most.

[chazzy]

i credit kobe with plenty of things. but making other players around him better isn't one of them. he's not a great teammate or a great team player. its difficult to play with kobe.


It pushed Bryant forward even further in prioritizing his teammates' development. Sharing his personal shooting program with Ariza was akin to unlocking the vault.

"Getting that from him? Kind of cool, kind of cool," Ariza said. "Because before I got here, you always hear how he's this certain type of person. And when I got here, you realize he's not what everybody says he is.

"I just got in the gym every day and worked. I used what he told me, used some things that he gave me to do. And I just worked."



..and his impact on ariza is tiny at most.


It worked. Ariza had made nine 3-pointers in his first four NBA seasons. This season, he made 61 as a prelude to his 47.6 percent playoff marksmanship

Ariza is a damn liar.

[game3524]

i credit kobe with plenty of things. but making other players around him better isn't one of them. he's not a great teammate or a great team player. its difficult to play with kobe.

trust me. you wouldn't hear pau gasol complaining about the lack of team play if it wasn't a beating at times.

i credit kobe for being one of the 12 best players ever and i credit him for taking great circumstances and capitalizing on them. i credit him for carrying the lakers in the playoff at times during the shaq/kobe three peat. i credit kobe when he plays a masterful game like he did in game 6 of the nba finals.

i give credit where credit is due.

the simple fact is that kobe did not make gasol any better than he already was.....and his impact on ariza is tiny at most.

Lmao, what is this 2004? Kobe has proven to be a very good teammate the last few years. I don't understand why you won't acknowledge that Ariza learned from Bryant, he even said so himself!

[ShoeGuy]

i credit kobe with plenty of things. but making other players around him better isn't one of them. he's not a great teammate or a great team player. its difficult to play with kobe.


Are you kidding me? The simple fact that he commands so much attention from opponents automatically gives other Lakers many opportunities to shine. The only reason why players would view Kobe as a difficult person to play with is his competitive nature. He expects his teammates to give the same effort and heart that he does. His leadership and competitive drive is on par with Jordan

[ginobli2311]

It pushed Bryant forward even further in prioritizing his teammates' development. Sharing his personal shooting program with Ariza was akin to unlocking the vault.

"Getting that from him? Kind of cool, kind of cool," Ariza said. "Because before I got here, you always hear how he's this certain type of person. And when I got here, you realize he's not what everybody says he is.

"I just got in the gym every day and worked. I used what he told me, used some things that he gave me to do. And I just worked."





It worked. Ariza had made nine 3-pointers in his first four NBA seasons. This season, he made 61 as a prelude to his 47.6 percent playoff marksmanship

Ariza is a damn liar.


should i dig up all the quotes from shaq or gasol or fisher or any number of other of kobe's teammates complaining about his refusal to run the offense?????

so basically kobe told ariza. "you have to work hard on your shot dude....get into the gym"

wow......amazing.

[ginobli2311]

Are you kidding me? The simple fact that he commands so much attention from opponents automatically gives other Lakers many opportunities to shine. The only reason why players would view Kobe as a difficult person to play with is his competitive nature. He expects his teammates to give the same effort and heart that he does. His leadership and competitive drive is on par with Jordan

again. that is true with every great player. does lebron not command attention? does wade / dirk / durant / howard /??????? come on. stop pretending its any different....actually....the big difference is that kobe is by far the worst team player out of any of those guys.

[chazzy]

should i dig up all the quotes from shaq or gasol or fisher or any number of other of kobe's teammates complaining about his refusal to run the offense?????

so basically kobe told ariza. "you have to work hard on your shot dude....get into the gym"

wow......amazing.

Fact: Ariza got better playing with the Lakers/Kobe. Put whatever spin you want on that, bring up Shaq, talk about how easy it is to make someone get better, talk about how other stars can do the same. Does not change that fact. Sorry

[game3524]

should i dig up all the quotes from shaq or gasol or fisher or any number of other of kobe's teammates complaining about his refusal to run the offense?????

so basically kobe told ariza. "you have to work hard on your shot dude....get into the gym"

wow......amazing.

Talk about being willfully ignorant.:roll:

Kobe gave him tips on how to improve, he didn't simply tell him to hit the gym and work hard. You are coming off more and more foolish by each post.

[tpols]

should i dig up all the quotes from shaq or gasol or fisher or any number of other of kobe's teammates complaining about his refusal to run the offense?????

so basically kobe told ariza. "you have to work hard on your shot dude....get into the gym"

wow......amazing.
dude don't you see? Ariza developed his 3pt game with kobe. He added that to his game, as, in Ariza's words, by kobe teaching him and motivating him to get better at it. You don't lose a skill when you switch teams so your rockets analysis is irrelevant.

[ginobli2311]

Fact: Ariza got better playing with the Lakers/Kobe. Put whatever spin you want on that, bring up Shaq, talk about how easy it is to make someone get better, talk about how other stars can do the same. Does not change that fact. Sorry

again...ignoring all context and circumstance i will say this:

ariza became a better three point shooter in LA.

but in terms of overall play. ariza in orlando in 07 was virtually the exact same player overall on 2 less minutes in a game. based on any measure or any standard ariza was virtually identical.....FACT

anything you say or bring up does not change that. ariza's overall play was nearly identical...FACT.

[ginobli2311]

Talk about being willfully ignorant.:roll:

Kobe gave him tips on how to improve, he didn't simply tell him to hit the gym and work hard. You are coming off more and more foolish by each post.

so you admit that it was kobe's fault that artest's three point percentage dropped 4%. you can't have one without the other.

[tpols]

again...ignoring all context and circumstance i will say this:

ariza became a better three point shooter in LA.

but in terms of overall play. ariza in orlando in 07 was virtually the exact same player overall on 2 less minutes in a game. based on any measure or any standard ariza was virtually identical.....FACT

anything you say or bring up does not change that. ariza's overall play was nearly identical...FACT.
it was identical yet he became a better shooter in LA... hmmm... your logic is intriguing...

[game3524]

again...ignoring all context and circumstance i will say this:

ariza became a better three point shooter in LA.

but in terms of overall play. ariza in orlando in 07 was virtually the exact same player overall on 2 less minutes in a game. based on any measure or any standard ariza was virtually identical.....FACT

anything you say or bring up does not change that. ariza's overall play was nearly identical...FACT.

Which in results made Trevor a BETTER overall player, since he added a three point shot to his game.

[chazzy]

again...ignoring all context and circumstance i will say this:

ariza became a better three point shooter in LA.

but in terms of overall play. ariza in orlando in 07 was virtually the exact same player overall on 2 less minutes in a game. based on any measure or any standard ariza was virtually identical.....FACT

anything you say or bring up does not change that. ariza's overall play was nearly identical...FACT.

So he was identical, yet added a whole new dimension to his offensive game in 3pt shooting. And he attributed Kobe to his improved shooting. So yes, he got better. Fact :oldlol: Your schtick is getting old.

[game3524]

so you admit that it was kobe's fault that artest's three point percentage dropped 4%. you can't have one without the other.

That doesn't even make sense? Artest had trouble adjusting to his role in the triangle, and for the most part he has always been a streaky shooter.

[tpols]

wow check the last three ^ we jumped that quick.:lol

[ginobli2311]

it was identical yet he became a better shooter in LA... hmmm... your logic is intriguing...

ariza's ts%, fg%, efg%, and PER were all better in orlando. i just don't see where you are coming from. he was a better rebounder in orlando as well.

comparing the two years....they are just too similar to go to the lengths you have to try and credit the lakers with something that does not exist.

[ginobli2311]

Which in results made Trevor a BETTER overall player, since he added a three point shot to his game.

no it does not. you don't have to shoot threes to be effective. in fact, ariza clearly picked up some bad habits in LA.

over a third of his shot attempts were threes in houston. that is not what you want. he doesn't attack the rim and he doesn't have a mid range game. he jacks up way too many tough shots actually.......hmmmmmmmm

wonder where he learned to jack up bad shots. hmmmmmmmmmmmm


owned.

[Doranku]

no it does not. you don't have to shoot threes to be effective. in fact, ariza clearly picked up some bad habits in LA.

over a third of his shot attempts were threes in houston. that is not what you want. he doesn't attack the rim and he doesn't have a mid range game. he jacks up way too many tough shots actually.......hmmmmmmmm

wonder where he learned to jack up bad shots. hmmmmmmmmmmmm


owned.

:oldlol:

[tpols]

no it does not. you don't have to shoot threes to be effective. in fact, ariza clearly picked up some bad habits in LA.

over a third of his shot attempts were threes in houston. that is not what you want. he doesn't attack the rim and he doesn't have a mid range game. he jacks up way too many tough shots actually.......hmmmmmmmm

wonder where he learned to jack up bad shots. hmmmmmmmmmmmm


owned.
right he learned it from kobe and it had nothing to do with the team having no reliable go-to scorer. dumbass.

[chazzy]

no it does not. you don't have to shoot threes to be effective. in fact, ariza clearly picked up some bad habits in LA.

over a third of his shot attempts were threes in houston. that is not what you want. he doesn't attack the rim and he doesn't have a mid range game. he jacks up way too many tough shots actually.......hmmmmmmmm

wonder where he learned to jack up bad shots. hmmmmmmmmmmmm


owned.

If he remained the same player he was in Orlando, he wouldn't have been given the role he EARNED in Houston from his IMPROVED play in LA. They would not have asked him to be a 2nd option if his game did not get any better. hmmmmmmm?

And you sound like a junior high kid whenever you use "owned," not a good look.

[game3524]

no it does not. you don't have to shoot threes to be effective. in fact, ariza clearly picked up some bad habits in LA.

over a third of his shot attempts were threes in houston. that is not what you want. he doesn't attack the rim and he doesn't have a mid range game. he jacks up way too many tough shots actually.......hmmmmmmmm

wonder where he learned to jack up bad shots. hmmmmmmmmmmmm


owned.

:roll:

So basically you are saying that adding more range doesn't help your game? Seriously WTF are you smoking? Also his struggles in Houston is due to the fact they put him in a role he is not suited for to justify his new contract.

[tpols]

:roll:

So basically you are saying that adding more range doesn't help your game? Seriously WTF are you smoking? Also his struggles in Houston is due to the fact they put him in a role he is not suited for to justify his new contract.
nah he's taking it a step up and saying that ariza's learnt 3pt shooting was dentrimental to his game because it made him a chucker, just like kobe...

[ginobli2311]

:roll:

So basically you are saying that adding more range doesn't help your game? Seriously WTF are you smoking? Also his struggles in Houston is due to the fact they put him in a role he is not suited for to justify his new contract.

no.....i'm saying that it does not make one a better overall player.

like i said before. ariza takes way way way too many threes in houston. he has not developed a mid range game and he does not attack the rim at all.

he clearly picked up some bad habits throughout his career. all i know is that ariza now shoots way too many threes....and according to you guys it was kobe that pushed him in that direction. he also takes far too many tough contested jumpers.....and that is exactly what kobe has been doing his entire career.

so i don't really see how ariza became a better player.

i can certainly agree that his play in LA earned him a contract. but his overall game has really not improved at all. he now jacks up way too many threes and way too many contested jumpers. and both of those were habits were clearly picked up in LA.

[chazzy]

nah he's taking it a step up and saying that ariza's learnt 3pt shooting was dentrimental to his game because it made him a chucker, just like kobe...

So not only won't he concede that Ariza got better playing with the Lakers, he's suggesting Ariza got WORSE? :roll: :roll:

[tpols]

no.....i'm saying that it does not make one a better overall player.

like i said before. ariza takes way way way too many threes in houston. he has not developed a mid range game and he does not attack the rim at all.

he clearly picked up some bad habits throughout his career. all i know is that ariza now shoots way too many threes....and according to you guys it was kobe that pushed him in that direction. he also takes far too many tough contested jumpers.....and that is exactly what kobe has been doing his entire career.

so i don't really see how ariza became a better player.

i can certainly agree that his play in LA earned him a contract. but his overall game has really not improved at all. he now jacks up way too many threes and way too many contested jumpers. and both of those were habits were clearly picked up in LA.
holy shit I think he actually believes what he wrote before:lol damn man you're one funny nigg@.

[game3524]

no.....i'm saying that it does not make one a better overall player.

like i said before. ariza takes way way way too many threes in houston. he has not developed a mid range game and he does not attack the rim at all.

he clearly picked up some bad habits throughout his career. all i know is that ariza now shoots way too many threes....and according to you guys it was kobe that pushed him in that direction. he also takes far too many tough contested jumpers.....and that is exactly what kobe has been doing his entire career.

so i don't really see how ariza became a better player.

i can certainly agree that his play in LA earned him a contract. but his overall game has really not improved at all. he now jacks up way too many threes and way too many contested jumpers. and both of those were habits were clearly picked up in LA.


Actually it does, anytime a player adds range to their game it makes them a better overall player. It requires teams to think twice about leaving you open and then guys like Ariza can use that slashing ability to get to the hole for fouls or easy buckets. If Rajon Rondo added a three point shot he would be a better overall player, if Wade had a better three point shot he would be a better overall player. It is just common sense.....

[ginobli2311]

So not only won't he concede that Ariza got better playing with the Lakers, he's suggesting Ariza got WORSE? :roll: :roll:

how did he get better?

look at his game now. 6 attempted threes a game on 14 total shots? 39% from the field overall. only 3 free throws a game..LOL....way down from all his previous years before the Lakers.......a PER of 13.3 (his lowest in 5 years)

how did he get better?

i'd much rather him shoot no threes rather than him take 6 a game on 33%

wow....i think i just owned the shit out of you guys.

[chazzy]

no.....i'm saying that it does not make one a better overall player.

like i said before. ariza takes way way way too many threes in houston. he has not developed a mid range game and he does not attack the rim at all.

he clearly picked up some bad habits throughout his career. all i know is that ariza now shoots way too many threes....and according to you guys it was kobe that pushed him in that direction. he also takes far too many tough contested jumpers.....and that is exactly what kobe has been doing his entire career.

so i don't really see how ariza became a better player.

i can certainly agree that his play in LA earned him a contract. but his overall game has really not improved at all. he now jacks up way too many threes and way too many contested jumpers. and both of those were habits were clearly picked up in LA.

Why can't you stay consistent with your arguments.. he's taking more shots because that's what he was ASKED to do. You can't compare his play as a role player off the bench/4th option with Lakers to his play as a 2nd option on the Rockets. If you ask a guy to take a higher amount of shots, especially a guy with a shaky handle, you'll get some bad shots. If he was asked to be a role player like he was with the Lakers, he would be a better role player than he was in Orlando. So YES, he is a better player now, he's just asked to do more than what he is capable of and it hurts his efficiency.

You think if you asked 07 Orlando Ariza to step into the role of 09/10 Ariza, he would be BETTER?

[ginobli2311]

Actually it does, anytime a player adds range to their game it makes them a better overall player. It requires teams to think twice about leaving you open and then guys like Ariza can use that slashing ability to get to the hole for fouls or easy buckets. If Rajon Rondo added a three point shot he would be a better overall player, if Wade had a better three point shot he would be a better overall player. It is just common sense.....

actually no...it does in theory. but if a player shoots as many as ariza does it becomes a negative.

like i said. at some point with the Lakers. ariza picked up some really bad habits. he never took as many bad shots anywhere else and he never jacked up this many threes. he now attacks the rim and gets to the free throw line much less as well. his PER is way down.

how did he bet better? i agree in theory that adding range is good. but the proof is in the pudding. you have to make it work on the actual court.....and ariza's game last year was pretty much the worst it has been since the 05/06 season.

[ginobli2311]

Why can't you stay consistent with your arguments.. he's taking more shots because that what he was ASKED to do. You can't compare his play as a role player off the bench/4th option with Lakers to his play as a 2nd option on the Rockets. If you ask a guy to take a higher amount of shots, especially a guy with a shaky handle, you'll get some bad shots. If he was asked to be a role player like he was with the Lakers, he would be a better role player than he was in Orlando.

so let me get this straight. so now his role has everything to do with it. but his role in LA had nothing to do with it. gotta love it.

just admit it boys.....i just blew your ****ing premise out of the water.

god damn it feels good.

[chazzy]

so let me get this straight. so now his role has everything to do with it. but his role in LA had nothing to do with it. gotta love it.

just admit it boys.....i just blew your ****ing premise out of the water.

god damn it feels good.

WTF are you talking about? His role in LA was essentially the same as his role in Orlando, and he then IMPROVED and he EARNED a larger role. How can you not comprehend that?

And stop touching yourself

[game3524]

actually no...it does in theory. but if a player shoots as many as ariza does it becomes a negative.

like i said. at some point with the Lakers. ariza picked up some really bad habits. he never took as many bad shots anywhere else and he never jacked up this many threes. he now attacks the rim and gets to the free throw line much less as well. his PER is way down.

how did he bet better? i agree in theory that adding range is good. but the proof is in the pudding. you have to make it work on the actual court.....and ariza's game last year was pretty much the worst it has been since the 05/06 season.

He is taking bad shots because he is in a differant role, Houston is a far cry from playing with two dominant scorers in Kobe and Pau and on top of that the Rockets may have given him the greenlight to shoot to justify the pricy contract they gave him. Any time you add range to your game it makes you a better player no if ands or but, your argument is beyond foolish.

[ginobli2311]

WTF are you talking about? His role in LA was essentially the same as his role in Orlando, and he then IMPROVED and he EARNED a larger role. How can you not comprehend that?

but he did not actually improve overall. he improved his three point shooting...but his overall play got worse.

he picked up bad habits and stopped doing the things he needs to do to have success in the league. i don't know why he got worse overall. he just did.

i don't pretend to know the reasons. i can only speculate. when you play with kobe and model your game after him you are going to pick up some really bad habits. and ariza can't make it work like kobe can....obviously.

so ariza became a three point chucker that doesn't attack and get to the free throw line and he never learned a mid range game. again....he did not actually get better overall. he is three point shot got better....but his three point shot is now hurting his overall game.

end of story.

[tpols]

so let me get this straight. so now his role has everything to do with it. but his role in LA had nothing to do with it. gotta love it.

just admit it boys.....i just blew your ****ing premise out of the water.

god damn it feels good.
what? no, what we're saying is this:

-when he was in orlando he was a slasher/energy guy
-when he left LA he left relatively the same player, just that he had a better shot and more range.
-then when he got to houston, he jumped from being the fourth option to the second and sometimes first.

Overall though, he picked up a good skill in LA. The skill he picked up, however, did not help him adjust to his new role in houston (nothing would have), but nonetheless it was still a positive for him as an individual basketball player.

You got me?

[ginobli2311]

He is taking bad shots because he is in a differant role, Houston is a far cry from playing with two dominant scorers in Kobe and Pau and on top of that the Rockets may have given him the greenlight to shoot to justify the pricy contract they gave him. Any time you add range to your game it makes you a better player no if ands or but, your argument is beyond foolish.

again. completely false. he added range but he's not a good 3 point shooter. he's a 33 percent three point shooter. that is not good enough to justify his attempts.

so again. his three point shooting actually has hurt his game because now he takes way too many and he has stopped attacking and has stopped being an efficient player.

ariza was taking 11 shots game in orlando. he is only taking 14 in houston. sorry....it does not compute. he picked up bad habits in LA.

[game3524]

I still don't understand how someone can say adding a three point shot didn't help Ariza improve. Do you know how many teams would love to have guys be able to slash, defend, and provide SPACING on the court. Adding a three point shot is a plus regardless what team you play on.

[ginobli2311]

what? no, what we're saying is this:

-when he was in orlando he was a slasher/energy guy
-when he left LA he left relatively the same player, just that he had a better shot and more range.
-then when he got to houston, he jumped from being the fourth option to the second and sometimes first.

Overall though, he picked up a good skill in LA. The skill he picked up, however, did not help him adjust to his new role in houston (nothing would have), but nonetheless it was still a positive for him as an individual basketball player.

You got me?

but you are wrong. he was more than a slasher in orlando. he was getting 11 shots a game 07.

he added range in LA....but he clearly picked up some really bad habits. he no longer attacks and he's far less efficient from the field. its not like he's in houston taking 20 shots a game. he's only taking 3 more shots a game in houston than he has in orlando. but now he's taking 6 threes a game to 0 in orlando.

bad habits, shot jacking, too many threes. all learned in LA.

[ginobli2311]

I still don't understand how someone can say adding a three point shot didn't help Ariza improve. Do you know how many teams would love to have guys be able to slash, defend, and provide SPACING on the court. Adding a three point shot is a plus regardless what team you play on.

only in theory. you have to make it work on the court. no team wants a player that scores 15 points on 14 shots and takes 6 threes a game and only gets to the ft line 3 times a game.

nobody wants that.

and again....ariza is not enough a good enough three point shooter to warrant what you are talking about. he hit 32% in the regular season for LA last year and 33% in houston this year. his shooting in the playoffs last year it was we call a statistical anomaly....the sample size was far too small and had too many variables. i think its clear what ariza is. a career sub 35% three point shooter that has a lot of bad habits in his game.

[game3524]

he's a 33 percent three point shooter. that is not good enough to justify his attempts.

so again. his three point shooting actually has hurt his game because now he takes way too many and he has stopped attacking and has stopped being an efficient player.

ariza was taking 11 shots game in orlando. he is only taking 14 in houston. sorry....it does not compute. he picked up bad habits in LA.

:roll:

He is never going to be Steve Nash, but range is always a plus. Also he didn't pick up bad habits, it is called playing in a marquee role to justify an expensive new contract.

[tpols]

but you are wrong. he was more than a slasher in orlando. he was getting 11 shots a game 07.

he added range in LA....but he clearly picked up some really bad habits. he no longer attacks and he's far less efficient from the field. its not like he's in houston taking 20 shots a game. he's only taking 3 more shots a game in houston than he has in orlando. but now he's taking 6 threes a game to 0 in orlando.

bad habits, shot jacking, too many threes. all learned in LA.
do you think his decrease in performance in houston is a result of his gaining a 3pt shot in LA or because he's playing a much bigger role than he can handle? Think long and hard man.

[chazzy]

again. completely false. he added range but he's not a good 3 point shooter. he's a 33 percent three point shooter. that is not good enough to justify his attempts.

so again. his three point shooting actually has hurt his game because now he takes way too many and he has stopped attacking and has stopped being an efficient player.

ariza was taking 11 shots game in orlando. he is only taking 14 in houston. sorry....it does not compute. he picked up bad habits in LA.

Ah, I get it. A robot. If you actually watched him play in Orlando, and then watched his game in LA and Houston, you would see an improvement in his overall game. Ask any ORLANDO fan, they would tell you the same. As a 2nd option, he gets more defensive attention to go along with increased shot attempts. Teams can game plan against his offensive game when put into that role.

This is the dumbest argument.. Ariza didn't improve, and in fact got WORSE, since 07?? I'm done.

[Fatal9]

****ing owned. seriously.....****ing owned. he shot 3% better and took over 100 less threes. he went from a limited role on a championship team to a big role on a bad team and took more than double the amount of threes per game.....and:

HIS PERCENTAGE DROPPED 3 PERCENT....AHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH. 3 ****ING PERCENT.....AHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA

seriously....****ing owned. not shut the **** up and admit you are wrong.
People are replying to this guy? :confusedshrug:

what a nerd....

"owned...****ing owned....seriousllyy ****ing owned!"

:oldlol:

[ginobli2311]

:roll:

He is never going to be Steve Nash, but range is always a plus. Also he didn't pick up bad habits, it is called playing in a marquee role to justify an expensive new contract.

so why did he stop attacking the rim? he's getting more minutes and more shots yet his free throw attempts in LA and Houston were the lowest of his career by far per 36 minutes played. that just randomly happened in LA?

[ginobli2311]

do you think his decrease in performance in houston is a result of his gaining a 3pt shot in LA or because he's playing a much bigger role than he can handle? Think long and hard man.

i think ariza would be a much much better player overall if you he attacked the rim like he did before he got to LA and i think he would be much better if he didn't take so many threes.

[ginobli2311]

People are replying to this guy? :confusedshrug:

what a nerd....

"owned...****ing owned....seriousllyy ****ing owned!"

:oldlol:

that is what i must resort to with these people. they attacked me personally first.

[chazzy]

People are replying to this guy? :confusedshrug:

what a nerd....

"owned...****ing owned....seriousllyy ****ing owned!"

:oldlol:

And it gets a bit creepy when he says stuff like "and it feels so good. god. feels so damn good. ugghhhh so good" I honestly think he's touching himself :roll:



that is what i must resort to with these people. they attacked me personally first.

That's BS, on MANY occasions I've seen you call people morons and say owned simply when you initially disagree with them.

[game3524]

so why did he stop attacking the rim? he's getting more minutes and more shots yet his free throw attempts in LA and Houston were the lowest of his career by far per 36 minutes played. that just randomly happened in LA?

Because he has more range, teams use to let Ariza have the open shot and he would use his athleticism to go to the hole, but now since he has more range he can take those shots and make them with more confidence. And now teams have to be more aware of him on the court, which only helps his team.

[ginobli2311]

And it gets a bit creepy when he says stuff like "and it feels so good. god. feels so damn good. ugghhhh so good" I honestly think he's touching himself :roll:

so chazzy. let me ask you this then

you credit kobe/lakers for improving ariza's three point shot....but why don't they get the blame for ariza's lack of aggressiveness, lack of free throws, and frequent taking of bad shots from long range?

all three of those bad habits came out in ariza's game in LA and after he left.

[chazzy]

so chazzy. let me ask you this then

you credit kobe/lakers for improving ariza's three point shot....but why don't they get the blame for ariza's lack of aggressiveness, lack of free throws, and frequent taking of bad shots from long range?

all three of those bad habits came out in ariza's game in LA and after he left.

Read my previous post, he's in NEW role as a 2ND OPTION, so teams can game plan and defend against that much more easily. Also going up against the opposing team's best wing defender, when in the past that assignment would go to Kobe or would be a bench player. If a team asked 07 Ariza to be a 2nd option and take as many shots, he would struggle even more because you can't just slash to the hoop all game. Seriously, you're better than that

[tpols]

i think ariza would be a much much better player overall if you he attacked the rim like he did before he got to LA and i think he would be much better if he didn't take so many threes.
so you're saying that the LA transition between orlando and houston was bad for him despite him gaining more responsibility on the houston team and having better ppg, apg, spg, and rpg...

[ginobli2311]

Because he has more range, teams use to let Ariza have the open shot and he would use his athleticism to go to the hole, but now since he has more range he can take those shots and make them with more confidence. And now temas have to be more aware of him on the court, which only helps his team.

how is it helping his team though? he's scoring at a terrible rate and he's not getting easy buckets and he's not getting to the line. he's settling for terrible jumpers. his PER is the lowest its been in 5 years. his rebound percentage is the worst of his career. his offensive rating is the worst its been in in 5 years.

there is no evidence that ariza is a better player. he is simply a better three point shooter. that is where you are missing the point. being a better three point shooter has not helped his overall game...in fact, he is actually slightly worse overall than he was before we went to LA.

[ginobli2311]

Read my previous post, he's in NEW role as a 2ND OPTION, so teams can game plan and defend against that much more easily. Also going up against the opposing team's best wing defender, when in the past that assignment would go to Kobe or would be a bench player. If a team asked 07 Ariza to be a 2nd option and take as many shots, he would struggle even more because you can't just slash to the hoop all game. Seriously, you're better than that

his role obviously plays a part in it. but ariza's shot jacking and lack of attacking plays a big role as well. if ariza did not have developed into an AVERAGE three point shooter.....he would not be taking 6 threes a game.

he's essentially playing exactly how other teams want him to play. he's taking difficult shots and not putting a ton of pressure on the defense and is settling for difficult shots.......hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

does the above remind anyone of kobe in the nba finals????????????

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[ginobli2311]

so you're saying that the LA transition between orlando and houston was bad for him despite him gaining more responsibility on the houston team and having better ppg, apg, spg, and rpg...

it was great for his wallet. not great for his game overall. i think ariza is now a worse player overall than he was in 07.

[zizozain]

FACT: ginobli2311 = 2000 posts in 2 months
FACT: 1888 posts out of the 2000 are about kobe.




"owned...****ing owned....seriousllyy ****ing owned!"

''and it feels so good. god. feels so damn good. ugghhhh so good"


.....i just blew your ****ing premise out of the water.

god damn it feels good.

:roll: :roll:

[ginobli2311]

FACT: ginobli2311 = 2000 posts in 2 months
FACT: 1888 posts out of the 2000 are about kobe.




"owned...****ing owned....seriousllyy ****ing owned!"

''and it feels so good. god. feels so damn good. ugghhhh so good"


.....i just blew your ****ing premise out of the water.

god damn it feels good.

:roll: :roll:

again...what does that have to do with the debate. stop making fun of someone for being on a message board while you are on a ****ing message board

do you know how pathetic that is.

[game3524]

how is it helping his team though? he's scoring at a terrible rate and he's not getting easy buckets and he's not getting to the line. he's settling for terrible jumpers. his PER is the lowest its been in 5 years. his rebound percentage is the worst of his career. his offensive rating is the worst its been in in 5 years.

there is no evidence that ariza is a better player. he is simply a better three point shooter. that is where you are missing the point. being a better three point shooter has not helped his overall game...in fact, he is actually slightly worse overall than he was before we went to LA.

It helps his team because he now has the ability to knock down open looks, and defenses will have to be more aware of him on the perimeter and they are going to think twice about leaving him open. This really helped LA last year, because they had guys who can demand double teams in Kobe and Pau.

And time you can add more range it is a plus.

[chazzy]

his role obviously plays a part in it. but ariza's shot jacking and lack of attacking plays a big role as well. if ariza did not have developed into an AVERAGE three point shooter.....he would not be taking 6 threes a game.

he's essentially playing exactly how other teams want him to play. he's taking difficult shots and not putting a ton of pressure on the defense and is settling for difficult shots.......hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

does the above remind anyone of kobe in the nba finals????????????

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

You agenda is obvious as hell but I won't address that.

And he has a shaky handle and would not be able to attack as frequently as he did in Orlando off the BENCH against BENCH players consistently with starter minutes. He wouldn't be nearly as effective had he not developed any kind of shooting game. And had he not developed a shooting game, he wouldn't be in this position in the first place, therefore making him a better individual player now than he was before. If he was on a team that put him in his Orlando role, he would be better because he's arguably the same player with an added dynamic to his game. :rant

[tpols]

FACT: ginobli2311 = 2000 posts in 2 months
FACT: 1888 posts out of the 2000 are about kobe.




"owned...****ing owned....seriousllyy ****ing owned!"

''and it feels so good. god. feels so damn good. ugghhhh so good"


.....i just blew your ****ing premise out of the water.

god damn it feels good.

:roll: :roll:
hahaha I get it:lol

[ginobli2311]

It helps his team because he now has the ability to knock down open looks, and defenses will have to be more aware of him on the perimeter and they are going to think twice about leaving him open. This really helped LA last year, because they had guys who can demand double teams in Kobe and Pau.

And time you can add more range it is a plus.

again....in theory it helps them. but it actually has not helped them.

just like ariza getting to the free throw line 7 times a game and shooting 54% from the field and rebounding the ball better would help his team as well.

its only a positive if he uses his range well. he's not using it well right now. so his overall game is not as good as it used to be.

sure....he has more range and that makes him a more complete player. but complete and better are two far different concepts.

[ginobli2311]

You agenda is obvious as hell but I won't address that.

And he has a shaky handle and would not be able to attack as frequently as he did in Orlando off the BENCH against BENCH players consistently with starter minutes. He wouldn't be nearly as effective had he not developed any kind of shooting game. And had he not developed a shooting game, he wouldn't be in this position in the first place, therefore making him a better individual player now than he was before. If he was on a team that put him in his Orlando role, he would be better because he's arguably the same player with an added dynamic to his game. :rant

no no no.

ariza is playing exactly how defenses want him to. he is letting them off the hook. he's settling for bad jumpers and not attacking now. so what if he has more range.....that same range is caused him to play the game differently and he has ignored doing other things.

its called settling for bad shots and not putting pressure on defenses. kobe can do it. ariza can't. ariza tried to copy kobe's game and it has really hurt him.

[game3524]

again....in theory it helps them. but it actually has not helped them.

just like ariza getting to the free throw line 7 times a game and shooting 54% from the field and rebounding the ball better would help his team as well.

its only a positive if he uses his range well. he's not using it well right now. so his overall game is not as good as it used to be.

sure....he has more range and that makes him a more complete player. but complete and better are two far different concepts.

No, it is not theory it is a fact. NBA teams want spacing and guys who can knock down shots, there is a reason why Kyle Korver is still in this league. Anytime a player adds range it is only a benefit, it is much easier to defend slashers who have no range then guys who can do both. Also Trevor is 65% free throw shooter, I doubt coaches want him at the line 7 times a game.

[ginobli2311]

No, it is not theory it is a fact. NBA teams want spacing and guys who can knock down shots, there is a reason why Kyle Korver is still in this league. Anytime a player adds range it is only a benefit, it is much easier to defend slashers who have no range then guys who can do both. Also Trevor is 65% free throw shooter, I doubt coaches want him at the line 7 times a game.

that is my point. just look at korver. he's a career 41% three point shooter. any decent perimeter player can shoot 33% from the three point line. ariza is the 108th best three point shooter based on percentage in the league. do you now understand how not special that is?

it has become a detriment to ariza's game. i'd much rather him attack and take shots closer to the rime than toss up 6 threes a game on an average at best percentage.

[G.O.A.T.]

That's BS, on MANY occasions I've seen you call people morons and say owned simply when you initially disagree with them.

as much BS as he puts he is persistent i'll give him that :roll:

I'm not gonna lie I come on ISH fairly often, but this guy is ALWAYS on here and 99 times out of 100 it's a Kobe-related thread.

[chazzy]

no no no.

ariza is playing exactly how defenses want him to. he is letting them off the hook. he's settling for bad jumpers and not attacking now. so what if he has more range.....that same range is caused him to play the game differently and he has ignored doing other things.

its called settling for bad shots and not putting pressure on defenses. kobe can do it. ariza can't. ariza tried to copy kobe's game and it has really hurt him.

Or that starting defenses force him into taking long shots because he has a shaky handle? Look at Jamal Crawford. He's been a career 40% shooter, but his fg% spiked to 45% this past season because he came off the bench in a better situation, on a team with other legit options. Did he really improve his game that much? Or is it a result of less defensive pressure and easier opportunities to score?

[ginobli2311]

Or that starting defenses force him into taking long shots because he has a shaky handle? Look at Jamal Crawford. He's been a career 40% shooter, but his fg% spiked to 45% this past season because he came off the bench in a better situation, on a team with other legit options. Did he really improve his game that much? Or is it a result of less defensive pressure and easier opportunities to score?

that is my exact point. ariza is not capable of playing his current role with his current game. he could easily score 15 points a game on a much higher efficiency level if had had his pre LA game.

he is the 108th best three point shooter in the league. i hardly think that is worth noting. the fact that he takes 6 a game just proves my point.

[game3524]

that is my point. just look at korver. he's a career 41% three point shooter. any decent perimeter player can shoot 33% from the three point line. ariza is the 108th best three point shooter based on percentage in the league. do you now understand how not special that is?

it has become a detriment to ariza's game. i'd much rather him attack and take shots closer to the rime than toss up 6 threes a game on an average at best percentage.


Range is never a detriment, I would much Ariza become a more versatile scorer and have more range then guys who can slash who are a dime in a dozen in this league. But those who can shoot and provide spacing and become glue guys on winning teams.

[ginobli2311]

Range is never a detriment, I would much Ariza become a more versatile scorer and have more range, guys who can slash are a dime in a dozen. But those who can shoot and provide spacing become glue guys on winning teams.

it has to happen on the floor for it to count for anything. ariza's three point shooting has taken away from other aspects of his game. and he's not a good three point shooter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

he's not even in the top 100 in the league. other teams pre game meetings would be like this concerning ariza....."ok guys....lay off ariza and bait him into taking a lot of threes. he's itching to take the shot....so just let him pull the trigger and try to contest as best you can. keep him comfortable enough to allow him to shoot. make sure you don't force him to drive"

[chazzy]

that is my exact point. ariza is not capable of playing his current role with his current game. he could easily score 15 points a game on a much higher efficiency level if had had his pre LA game.

he is the 108th best three point shooter in the league. i hardly think that is worth noting. the fact that he takes 6 a game just proves my point.

I agree that he's not capable of being a 2nd option, but did you even read my post? I said teams force him into taking long shots because it's easier to game plan against that type of player if he's put in that role. If 07 Ariza was put in that position, a team's defense would just give him the Rondo treatment and he wouldn't maneuver around it because of his shaky handle, and wouldn't beat you with his passing either. You're seriously overrating 07 Ariza, I highly doubt you actually saw him play consistently.

[zizozain]

again...what does that have to do with the debate. stop making fun of someone for being on a message board while you are on a ****ing message board

do you know how pathetic that is.

dam .. this giy does not get it

2000 posts in 2 months all about kobe means nothing?

what does that have to do with the debate?

it means you can not debate with such a troubled person.
it is so obvious, it is so clear that you have a big problem
and the problem is developed to be a psychiatric disorder.

and the sad thing is that you don't see any problem with that.

now do you know how pathetic that is?

wake the f*ck up
f*ck kobe , f*ck MJ , f*ck NBA
watch your f*cking health and future

[game3524]

it has to happen on the floor for it to count for anything. ariza's three point shooting has taken away from other aspects of his game. and he's not a good three point shooter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

he's not even in the top 100 in the league. other teams pre game meetings would be like this concerning ariza....."ok guys....lay off ariza and bait him into taking a lot of threes. he's itching to take the shot....so just let him pull the trigger and try to contest as best you can. keep him comfortable enough to allow him to shoot. make sure you don't force him to drive"

I never said he was Nash or someone on that level, but he is a better shooter today then he was just two years ago which makes him a better overall player, without the added range he wouldn't be able to start in this league.

[tpols]

Everybody, STOP ARGUING WITH GINOBLI!

He's gone from saying ariza got slightly better in LA to ariza became way worse. His kobe agenda, once again, has altered his reality of these situations and he's incoherently babbling now. STOP ARGUING WITH HIM.

Close this f!cking thread...

[ginobli2311]

I agree that he's not capable of being a 2nd option, but did you even read my post? I said teams force him into taking long shots because it's easier to game plan against that type of player if he's put in that role. If 07 Ariza was put in that position, a team's defense would just give him the Rondo treatment and he wouldn't maneuver around it because of his shaky handle, and wouldn't beat you with his passing either. You're seriously overrating 07 Ariza, I highly doubt you actually saw him play consistently.

actually i watched him play a lot. he had a lot flaws. but he was way more aggressive on both sides of the ball. he didn't settle for tough jumpers.

i think you are under-rating him a bit actually. you act like he couldn't play or something. sure he had weaknesses.......but there have been plenty of players that didn't have good range that were effective.

larry hughes comes to mind.

ariza also has always had the ability to make jumpers inside of 18 feet. those shots have now just been replaced with with long range threes.

[EarlTheGoat]

Gasol a product of Kobe? Is this another bullshit made by paranoid skizofrenic fanboys to hype up Kobe? Cause it surely looks like that to me.

Pau has been one of the top big men in the league since he came in, when he played in Memphis he barely reached the 45 wins, thats why people forget or dont want to remember his days in the Grizzlies. Its similar to what happens with Al Jefferson in Minnesota, guy is great, but aint that noticed like other big men because his team sucks, no wins, no attention.

Gasol has been the exact same player since he came to LA than he was in Memphis, the exact same. Ive been following this guy for his entire career in the NBA and I can say I havent seen much changes in his game. His skill, post moves, intelligence...etc where already there in Memphis.

Now he plays in a top team, a championship team, and the other players dont focuse as much in him as they do in Kobe, so sometimes he gets easier touches and easier baskets, but statwise things havent changed much in this 2-3 years, and of course if somebody here actually watched him in f*cking Memphis they would notice this too.

Shawn Marion is an example of a player being the product of another (Nash), but not Gasol for gods sake. Somebody actually watches the games here? Im starting to doubt this. Many of his baskets are self-created baskets, I barely see Gasol being fed by Kobe or Fisher, of course they make fancy plays together from time to time but...all those post moves, all those self-created baskets...etc, with a "fed type player" like Marion Lakers would not have won this last chips, specially the last one, retards.


Kobe stans get so mad when people say: "Kobe was the product of Shaq", and now they play the same stupid games? gtfo. Oh btw, im a Lakers fan, the term "Los Angeles Lakers" involves the whole team, not just the one with the 24 on his back, f*cking bandwagoners.

[game3524]

Pau is more of a product of playing in a system that fits him more so then playing with Kobe, which is a plus since it allows him to be the number two option.

[ginobli2311]

Everybody, STOP ARGUING WITH GINOBLI!

He's gone from saying ariza got slightly better in LA to ariza became way worse. His kobe agenda, once again, has altered his reality of these situations and he's incoherently babbling now. STOP ARGUING WITH HIM.

Close this f!cking thread...

yea. close it because your entire premise has been proven false.

this has nothing to do with kobe on my part. you people are the ones that credited kobe for making ariza a better player. but the fact remains that while ariza added range in LA.....he picked up a lot of bad habits and has neglected a lot of things in his game that made him a good player.

is he better overall? i honstly don't think so. i think he has a more complete game....but his overall play is not any better by any standards or measure.

[ginobli2311]

Gasol a product of Kobe? Is this another bullshit made by paranoid skizofrenic fanboys to hype up Kobe? Cause it surely looks like that to me.

Pau has been one of the top big men in the league since he came in, when he played in Memphis he barely reached the 45 wins, thats why people forget or dont want to remember his days in the Grizzlies. Its similar to what happens with Al Jefferson in Minnesota, guy is great, but aint that noticed like other big men because his team sucks, no wins, no attention.

Gasol has been the exact same player since he came to LA than he was in Memphis, the exact same. Ive been following this guy for his entire career in the NBA and I can say I havent seen much changes in his game. His skill, post moves, intelligence...etc where already there in Memphis.

Now he plays in a top team, a championship team, and the other players dont focuse as much in him as they do in Kobe, so sometimes he gets easier touches and easier baskets, but statwise things havent changed much in this 2-3 years, and of course if somebody here actually watched him in f*cking Memphis they would notice this too.

Shawn Marion is an example of a player being the product of another (Nash), but not Gasol for gods sake. Somebody actually watches the games here? Im starting to doubt this. Many of his baskets are self-created baskets, I barely see Gasol being fed by Kobe or Fisher, of course they make fancy plays together from time to time but...all those post moves, all those self-created baskets...etc, with a "fed type player" like Marion Lakers would not have won this last chips, specially the last one, retards.


Kobe stans get so mad when people say: "Kobe was the product of Shaq", and now they play the same stupid games? gtfo. Oh btw, im a Lakers fan, the term "Los Angeles Lakers" involves the whole team, not just the one with the 24 on his back, f*cking bandwagoners.

This.

Close thread.

[Doctor Rivers]

This.

Close thread.

I guess the periods mean you're really serious now right?

[zizozain]

This.

Close thread.

a typical psychiatric patient.. when painful truth is slammed on his face
he acts like he doesn't see it .. and close threads.. lol

again:


dam .. this giy does not get it

2000 posts in 2 months all about kobe means nothing?

what does that have to do with the debate?

it means you can not debate with such a troubled person.
it is so obvious, it is so clear that you have a big problem
and the problem is developed to be a psychiatric disorder.
and the sad thing is that you don't see any problem with that.

now do you know how pathetic that is?

wake the f*ck up
f*ck kobe , f*ck MJ , f*ck NBA
watch your f*cking health and future

[EarlTheGoat]

a typical psychiatric patient.. when painful truth is slammed on his face
he acts like he doesn't see it .. and close threads.. lol

again:

What psychiatric disorders is he having? Id say people agreeing with the statement of the thread are the ones with psychiatric disorders. The only thing you do is call people "this" and "that", but where are your arguments? Do you watch the games or only the highlights of Kobe to touch your balls a bit?

So, now, not agreeing with the statement: "Gasol is nothing without Kobe" is having a psychiatric disorder? Please, dont twist the game, dont twist things. Ive seen those tactis before you were even born, old ones.

Now give me your arguments on why you saying Gasol is the product of Kobe, so we can start with something.

[game3524]

What psychiatric disorders is he having? Id say people agreeing with the statement of the thread are the ones with psychiatric disorders. The only thing you say is call people "this" and "that", but where are your arguments? Do you watch the games or only the highlights of Kobe to touch your balls a bit?

So, now, not agreeing with the statement: "Gasol is nothing without Kobe" is having a psychiatric disorder? Please, dont twist the game, dont twist things. Ive seen those tactis before you were even born, old ones.

Now give me your arguments on why you saying Gasol is the product of Kobe, so we can start with something.

He is having a psychiatric disorder because he thinks Ariza was a better player in Orlando and didn't benefit by playing in LA, really that has been the argument the last several pages.

[zizozain]

What psychiatric disorders is he having? Id say people agreeing with the statement of the thread are the ones with psychiatric disorders. The only thing you do is call people "this" and "that", but where are your arguments? Do you watch the games or only the highlights of Kobe to touch your balls a bit?

So, now, not agreeing with the statement: "Gasol is nothing without Kobe" is having a psychiatric disorder? Please, dont twist the game, dont twist things. Ive seen those tactis before you were even born, old ones.

Now give me your arguments on why you saying Gasol is the product of Kobe, so we can start with something.

nothing about basketball
the guy has 2000 posts in 2 months all about kobe??
is this normal to you?

[ginobli2311]

What psychiatric disorders is he having? Id say people agreeing with the statement of the thread are the ones with psychiatric disorders. The only thing you do is call people "this" and "that", but where are your arguments? Do you watch the games or only the highlights of Kobe to touch your balls a bit?

So, now, not agreeing with the statement: "Gasol is nothing without Kobe" is having a psychiatric disorder? Please, dont twist the game, dont twist things. Ive seen those tactis before you were even born, old ones.

Now give me your arguments on why you saying Gasol is the product of Kobe, so we can start with something.

finally someone that gets it.

my main point has always been the following:

no doubt gasol benefits from playing with kobe and for a legit title contender. no doubt about it. but trying to claim kobe/lakers are the only team he would greatly have benefited from is simply not accurate.

if gasol was the number two option on the cavs or the celtics or the mavs or the thunder or the heat.........and so on. gasol would have seen a slight increase in efficiency and more post season success.

i swear people do not watch the games or take the time to look at simple stats.

in 07.....gasol averaged:

21 points 10 boards 3.4 assists on 54% from the field. his PER was 24.1 (the highest of his career)

to somehow try to credit kobe/lakers with gasol's greatness is really just so unfair to gasol.

[Disaprine]

ginobli2311 trolled this thread to 10+ pages. :oldlol:
will it ever end?

[Doctor Rivers]

as much BS as he puts he is persistent i'll give him that :roll:

I'm not gonna lie I come on ISH fairly often, but this guy is ALWAYS on here and 99 times out of 100 it's a Kobe-related thread.

word.

[ginobli2311]

He is having a psychiatric disorder because he thinks Ariza was a better player in Orlando and didn't benefit by playing in LA, really that has been the argument the last several pages.

not true. ariza benefited by putting dollars into his pocket and adding a three point shot.

but he did not become a BETTER player. he added range, but also picked up some bad habits and stopped doing a lot of the things that made him a quality player in the first place.

you can't give credit to kobe/lakers for the three point shooting but not put some blame on them for the shot jacking, lack of aggressiveness, and lack of rebounding compared to what he used to be.

you can't have it both ways.

[game3524]

finally someone that gets it.

my main point has always been the following:

no doubt gasol benefits from playing with kobe and for a legit title contender. no doubt about it. but trying to claim kobe/lakers are the only team he would greatly have benefited from is simply not accurate.
if gasol was the number two option on the cavs or the celtics or the mavs or the thunder or the heat.........and so on. gasol would have seen a slight increase in efficiency and more post season success.

i swear people do not watch the games or take the time to look at simple stats.

in 07.....gasol averaged:

21 points 10 boards 3.4 assists on 54% from the field. his PER was 24.1 (the highest of his career)

to somehow try to credit kobe/lakers with gasol's greatness is really just so unfair to gasol.

It is not an exaggeration because Pau fits the triangle like a glove.

[game3524]

not true. ariza benefited by putting dollars into his pocket and adding a three point shot.

but he did not become a BETTER player. he added range, but also picked up some bad habits and stopped doing a lot of the things that made him a quality player in the first place.

you can't give credit to kobe/lakers for the three point shooting but not put some blame on them for the shot jacking, lack of aggressiveness, and lack of rebounding compared to what he used to be.

you can't have it both ways.

Any time you fix a weakness, you become a better player. This isn't rocket science, Ariza is better player now then he was two years ago.

[Doctor Rivers]

but also picked up some bad habits and stopped doing a lot of the things that made him a quality player in the first place.

I would say it's more Ariza trying to live up to his new contract. He was replacing one of the best rockets players in ron artest and i'm sure the fans were hyping him up after his great performance in the finals. there was definitely some pressure there for him to prove himself and thus you have the bad play.

[ginobli2311]

Any time you fix a weakness, you become a better player. This isn't rocket science, Ariza is better player now then he was two years ago.

he fixed a weakness and added two more weaknesses. that is my point. his overall play did not improve. he became a more complete player....why can't you comprehend the difference.

for example....let say lebron started to shoot 40% from the three point line but he stopped attacking the rim and creating for teammates. technically he improved his game.....but his impact and effectiveness would actually be worse.
there is a big difference between acquiring new skills and putting them to use on the court in a way that benefits your team.

[chazzy]

I would say it's more Ariza trying to live up to his new contract. He was replacing one of the best rockets players in ron artest and i'm sure the fans were hyping him up after his great performance in the finals. there was definitely some pressure there for him to prove himself and thus you have the bad play.

No man, he copied Kobe's shotjacking!!

[Doctor Rivers]

It is not an exaggeration because Pau fits the triangle like a glove.

yup, look at shaq during the three-peat years. he was racking assists like no other center in the league and everyone was saying he was the best passing big man. if it worked well for shaq, it's working even better for pau.

[zizozain]

nothing about basketball
the guy has 2000 posts in 2 months all about kobe??
is this normal to you?

EarlTheGoat
ginobli2311

any comment? or act like you don't see it

[ginobli2311]

I would say it's more Ariza trying to live up to his new contract. He was replacing one of the best rockets players in ron artest and i'm sure the fans were hyping him up after his great performance in the finals. there was definitely some pressure there for him to prove himself and thus you have the bad play.

so if something like pressure or hype can cause bad play for an entire season. why can't ariza's good three point shooting be explained the same way?

ariza simply got hot in the playoffs in 09 for the lakers. he made 40 threes out of 84 (something like that....i don't want to look it up). it is definitely within statistical probability that a sample size that small could be more of an anomaly than a trend.

[ginobli2311]

EarlTheGoat
ginobli2311

any comment? or act like you don't see it

i find it the most interesting debates. please debate me. when you resort to personal attacks it just means you can't handle a real debate.

i have defended kobe in many of those posts as well.

[Doctor Rivers]

his overall play did not improve. he became a more complete player....why can't you comprehend the difference.
.

you're confusing me... does this make sense to anyone else on here?

[zizozain]

EarlTheGoat
ginobli2311

simple yes or no questions .. lol

mentioning ''2000 posts in 2 months all about kobe''
is not personal attack .. just plain fact


you guys trolled with the wrong person

[game3524]

I would say it's more Ariza trying to live up to his new contract. He was replacing one of the best rockets players in ron artest and i'm sure the fans were hyping him up after his great performance in the finals. there was definitely some pressure there for him to prove himself and thus you have the bad play.

This.

Hollinger put it best, and calls it "Contract justifying" shots. The biggest mistake Houston did was putting him in role that doesn't suit him, Ariza shouldn't be taking 13 shots a game whether it is threes, attempt layups/dunks and midrange jumpers. He is just not that good.

[ginobli2311]

yup, look at shaq during the three-peat years. he was racking assists like no other center in the league and everyone was saying he was the best passing big man. if it worked well for shaq, it's working even better for pau.

but gasol was racking up a lot of assists in memphis and was know as a great passing big man. in fact, gasol's top assist season came in memphis.

[game3524]

you're confusing me... does this make sense to anyone else on here?

:roll:

He lost me after that post.....

[ginobli2311]

This.

Hollinger put it best, and calls it "Contract justifying" shots. The biggest mistake Houston did was putting him in role that doesn't suit him, Ariza shouldn't be taking 13 shots a game whether it is threes, attempt layups/dunks and midrange jumpers. He is just not that good.

really? he took 11 shots per 36 minutes in orlando. if he has improved he should be able to handle 2 more shots per game i would think.

[EarlTheGoat]

nothing about basketball
the guy has 2000 posts in 2 months all about kobe??
is this normal to you?

So what? I dont see your point. Havent read all the f*cking posts he made about Kobe, I dont know if he is a hater or what, I dont really care. This doesnt change the fact that people are calling him a wacko because he disagrees with the title of this thread. I dont know if he rapes his mother, if he hates on Kobe...etc, all I know is I agree with him here (about Gasol not being the product of Kobe), and all you guys do is call names and dont bring arguments.

I asked you why you think Gasol is the product of Kobe, please answer.

[Doctor Rivers]

so if something like pressure or hype can cause bad play for an entire season. why can't ariza's good three point shooting be explained the same way?

ariza served a specific role on the lakers within the triangle offense that worked for he and his teammates. unfortunately he overestimated his value and is now paying for it.

[game3524]

really? he took 11 shots per 36 minutes in orlando. if he has improved he should be able to handle 2 more shots per game i would think.

He can't handle that many shots, because he can't create for himself on a consistent basis. At most he should be taking 7-8 shots a game.

[chazzy]

So what? I dont see your point. Havent read all the f*cking posts he made about Kobe, I dont know if he is a hater or what, I dont really care. This doesnt change the fact that people are calling him a wacko because he disagrees with the title of this thread. I dont know if he rapes his mother, if he hates on Kobe...etc, all I know is I agree with him here (about Gasol not being the product of Kobe), and all you guys do is call names and dont bring arguments.

I asked you why you think Gasol is the product of Kobe, please answer.

This thread has been about Ariza since the 2nd page, basically everyone agreed the thread topic isn't true. Ginobli is suggesting Ariza in fact regressed since his days in Orlando, and attributes his "shot jacking" to playing with and learning from Kobe Bryant.

[ginobli2311]

you're confusing me... does this make sense to anyone else on here?

easy.

just because ariza became a better three point shooter does not mean he became a better overall player. he added range....but lost his aggressiveness. he doesn't get to the free throw line anymore. he doesn't board like he used to. he settles for terrible jumpers way too often. he is far less efficient from the field overall. his PER is the lowest its been in 5 years.

he's more complete now because he can make threes (108th best in the league....LOL)...but he's not a better overall player for the reasons above.

[Doctor Rivers]

really? he took 11 shots per 36 minutes in orlando. if he has improved he should be able to handle 2 more shots per game i would think.

per 36 min?? not really a great indicator when extrapolating to a full starter's minutes.

[zizozain]

you're confusing me... does this make sense to anyone else on here?
don't blame him .. he is cornered now and can't think straight

[ginobli2311]

per 36 min?? not really a great indicator when extrapolating to a full starter's minutes.

ariza averaged exactly 36.5 minutes this year.

[Doctor Rivers]

easy.

just because ariza became a better three point shooter does not mean he became a better overall player. he added range....but lost his aggressiveness. he doesn't get to the free throw line anymore. he doesn't board like he used to. he settles for terrible jumpers way too often. he is far less efficient from the field overall. his PER is the lowest its been in 5 years.

he's more complete now because he can make threes (108th best in the league....LOL)...but he's not a better overall player for the reasons above.

yeah i get what you're trying to say but you're just contradicting yourself when saying he's complete but not better. isn't it easier to say he's improved his range and leave it at that?

[EarlTheGoat]

This thread has been about Ariza since the 2nd page, basically everyone agreed the thread topic isn't true. Ginobli is suggesting Ariza in fact regressed since his days in Orlando, and attributes his "shot jacking" to playing with and learning from Kobe Bryant.

Then, well this is one thing in which I dont agree with him.

[Doctor Rivers]

ariza averaged exactly 36.5 minutes this year.

sorry confused me again when you said per 36 min in Orlando

[Bladers]

So what? I dont see your point. Havent read all the f*cking posts he made about Kobe, I dont know if he is a hater or what, I dont really care. This doesnt change the fact that people are calling him a wacko because he disagrees with the title of this thread. I dont know if he rapes his mother, if he hates on Kobe...etc, all I know is I agree with him here (about Gasol not being the product of Kobe), and all you guys do is call names and dont bring arguments.

I asked you why you think Gasol is the product of Kobe, please answer.

I have been here for a month and have seen all his Kobe posts from that time on and i tell you, the dude is the most biased double standard Kobe hater i have ever seen.

and I'm not even JOKING.:no:
One of the best in the business.

[chazzy]

Per 36 stats for a bench role player is not a good indicator of how that player would actually play if given starter minutes. Does not factor in improved defense/defensive attention, ability to get off double amount of shots on similar efficiency etc.

[Bladers]

dam .. this giy does not get it

2000 posts in 2 months all about kobe means nothing?

what does that have to do with the debate?

it means you can not debate with such a troubled person.
it is so obvious, it is so clear that you have a big problem
and the problem is developed to be a psychiatric disorder.

and the sad thing is that you don't see any problem with that.

now do you know how pathetic that is?

wake the f*ck up
f*ck kobe , f*ck MJ , f*ck NBA
watch your f*cking health and future
This.

[zizozain]

hmmmmm
anyone familiar with NBASTATMAN in lakers game threads ?

lol
You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time,
but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.

you're busted ass-hole

:roll: :roll:

[KenneBell]

Yeah, ginobli has some serious problems. It's like he's on a mission or something. Too bad he's failing and no one's listening. Just an unhealthy amount of posting by the guy.

I hope he gets some help. Being obsessed with one guy isn't good for your mental health.

[AirJordan&Magic]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

There is something seriously wrong with this Ginobili kid.

[AirJordan&Magic]

Yeah, ginobli has some serious problems. It's like he's on a mission or something. Too bad he's failing and no one's listening. Just an unhealthy amount of posting by the guy.

I hope he gets some help. Being obsessed with one guy isn't good for your mental health.

It really is sad.

[Showtime]

The only thing Kobe and the lakers have improved is the PERCEPTION of Pau Gasol, not him as a player or his abilities.

[ginobli2311]

The only thing Kobe and the lakers have improved is the PERCEPTION of Pau Gasol, not him as a player or his abilities.

exactly.

don't you other morons have something better to do than make fun of people on message boards. my god....you lose a debate and can't handle it at all.

[Eldrunko247]

How about the other way around as well? :confusedshrug:
I'd say it goes something like this 60/40 Kobe

[chazzy]

exactly.

don't you other morons have something better to do than make fun of people on message boards. my god....you lose a debate and can't handle it at all.

Lose? No one lost. You just say "owned" whenever you disagree with someone, despite not "owning" anything. You assertion about Ariza in this thread is downright absurd and I doubt more than 5% of basketball fans would agree with it.

For anyone just joining the party, Ginobli claims that Ariza didn't improve from his time with the Lakers, and actually got WORSE because Kobe taught him how to shot jack! I'm outta here.

[ginobli2311]

Lose? No one lost. You just say "owned" whenever you disagree with someone, despite not "owning" anything. You assertion about Ariza in this thread is downright absurd and I doubt more than 5% of basketball fans would agree with it.

but in fact it was not absurd. he got better in one area and worse in others. he picked up both good and bad habits in LA....which is why he did not become a better overall player.

what you do on the actual floor matters. not what you can do in the gym with nobody watching or guarding you.

[Round Mound]

He was a 20/10 guy before Kobe. With that said, Gasol is partially a product of Kobe just like Kobe is partially a product of Gasol.

Quite obvious but ofcourse the Kobe homers believe Kobe made Gasol :wtf: :hammerhead: :oldlol: :rolleyes: :banghead:

[TheLogo]

One must also remember that Pau was traded.

Memphis basically wanted to rebuild and Pau was no longer in their future. If he is as good as most people overrate him, then why did the Grizz not continue to build around Pau.

[zizozain]

stop it NBASTATMAN



:lol

[Doctor Rivers]

Yeah, ginobli has some serious problems. It's like he's on a mission or something. Too bad he's failing and no one's listening. Just an unhealthy amount of posting by the guy.

I hope he gets some help. Being obsessed with one guy isn't good for your mental health.

ill co-sign on this one

[Round Mound]

One must also remember that Pau was traded.

Memphis basically wanted to rebuild and Pau was no longer in their future. If he is as good as most people overrate him, then why did the Grizz not continue to build around Pau.

What happened to Memphis after Pau left? Nothing much right? Pau Gasol is right now the 2nd or 1st Forward-Center in the league along Tim Duncan, and has been the last 3 years.

[Showtime]

One must also remember that Pau was traded.

Memphis basically wanted to rebuild and Pau was no longer in their future. If he is as good as most people overrate him, then why did the Grizz not continue to build around Pau.
Just goes to show yet another person who wasn't even around then. Pau wanted out. He was injured his last few years there, they weren't winning, they were changing coaches from Hubie to Fratello to Ivaroni, and both parties were unhappy.

If you would have been asked in 2002 if Shaq was tradable, you would be crazy to say yes. Well, even the best get traded. It doesn't mean he wasn't good. So the logic that "Oh, well he got traded so he must not have been good" is laughably ignorant.

[GiveItToBurrito]

Gasol was great with Memphis, they won 50 games a few times with Mike Miller as the number two option. Gasol and Kobe complement each other in that they're both great passers, but there's nothing special about the relationship. Kobe and prime Brad Miller would work just as well, ditto for Wade and Gasol.

[LakersLaLaLand]

Just goes to show yet another person who wasn't even around then. Pau wanted out. He was injured his last few years there, they weren't winning, they were changing coaches from Hubie to Fratello to Ivaroni, and both parties were unhappy.

If you would have been asked in 2002 if Shaq was tradable, you would be crazy to say yes. Well, even the best get traded. It doesn't mean he wasn't good. So the logic that "Oh, well he got traded so he must not have been good" is laughably ignorant.

Memphis also wanted to rid themselves of his fat contract. Somewhere in the range of 13-15M for 3-4 years at the time. They were trimming the fat.

[LakersLaLaLand]

Gasol was great with Memphis, they won 50 games a few times with Mike Miller as the number two option. Gasol and Kobe complement each other in that they're both great passers, but there's nothing special about the relationship. Kobe and prime Brad Miller would work just as well, ditto for Wade and Gasol.

declining Gasol>>>>>>prime brad miller.

[bsyde82]

Whether or not Pau's game improved or not as a result of being on the Lakers is, at least debatable simply because there are so many variables in play.

Obviously, Pau was an all-star caliber player long before he arrived in LA...Memphis just doesn't receive so much media attention for obvious reasons, so I think that's the reason why we're hearing all that media love for Pau the past couple years (also because he's in nationally televised playoff games of significance, whereas before, he was not)

I actually agree with Ginobli that you pair Pau with any other superstar player, most likely the perception of him over the past several years would probably be similar to the perception of him now. That said, Pau is probably marginally better on the lakers because he fits the system well, and because he's got Bynum (when he's actually healthy) to bang w/ the big boys....

speaking of that, I think this is one area where Pau has benefited from playing specifically with Kobe. Of course, there's no empirical way for me to prove this...its just what I have seen and observed when comparing Pau in 2008, and the Pau I see now. He's just a lot tougher...I mean boston was really trying to beat him up in the finals this year, presumably as an attempt to make him revert back to 2008 pau. I thought for the most part, he showed a lot of fight, and I have to believe that playing with someone like Kobe is at least a significant reason why he's now got toughness and tenacity to pair with his God-given talent.

[KenneBell]

I agree with the above. The main benefit of him playing with Kobe and under Phil was his improvement in mental toughness.

He'll always be kind of soft but now he doesn't wilt. Only bends. :oldlol:

[GiveItToBurrito]

declining Gasol>>>>>>prime brad miller.

Prime Brad was pretty good, but I was really just looking for an example of a highly skilled big who isn't a sure-thing first ballot hall of famer.

[LakersLaLaLand]

Prime Brad was pretty good, but I was really just looking for an example of a highly skilled big who isn't a sure-thing first ballot hall of famer.

Ok fair. And yes brad miller was very good when younger. I used to think of him in the triangle back in the day.

[LA_Showtime]

Kobe hasn't magically improved Gasol's shot, basketball IQ, or defense; however, he's definitely helped show him how to win. Gasol's mentality has changed quite a bit since coming to LA.

[LakersLaLaLand]

Kobe hasn't magically improved Gasol's shot, basketball IQ, or defense; however, he's definitely helped show him how to win. Gasol's mentality has changed quite a bit since coming to LA.

Kobe and LA have given Gasol the mass exposure he deserves. A perfect example of a great player being unnoticed by the general public because he plays in a small market. Brings his uber-talents to the big show and is instantly accepted across all markets.

I remember people saying, "who is pau gasol? Is he any good?" Just after his trade to LA.

[LA_Showtime]

Kobe and LA have given Gasol the mass exposure he deserves. A perfect example of a great player being unnoticed by the general public because he plays in a small market. Brings his uber-talents to the big show and is instantly accepted across all markets.

I remember people saying, "who is pau gasol? Is he any good?" Just after his trade to LA.

Haha, I don't. I remember a bunch of, "Holy shit, how the **** did this happen?"

[scm5]

Haha, I don't. I remember a bunch of, "Holy shit, how the **** did this happen?"

Me too. I remember I was in class and my friend tells me about the trade.

The first thing going through my head was... "WTF? For KWAME!?!?!"

Then, after class, people wouldn't stop buzzing about how lopsided the trade was.

[Steve212]

Kobe gave Pau heart. Pau was already viewed as one of the best players in the World before coming to L.A.

[Jacks3]

Gasol is nothing without Kobe. It's no coincidence that his ORB% and TS%/FG% numbers have taken a huge jump with Kobe. Kobe makes the game A LOT easier for Gasol.

[ginobli2311]

]Gasol is nothing without Kobe.[/B] It's no coincidence that his ORB% and TS%/FG% numbers have taken a huge jump with Kobe. Kobe makes the game A LOT easier for Gasol.

please don't post here anymore. comments like this turn the board into a joke.

[Dro]

smh...so now kobe GAVE pau toughness and confidence? what he delivered them in a box and gave it to pau as a welcoming present? lol last i checked your confidence usually always rises when youre on the court with other great players...your chances of winning r better...i mean i understand where u guys r comin from sayin kobe made him more confident but come on lol

[ginobli2311]

smh...so now kobe GAVE pau toughness and confidence? what he delivered them in a box and gave it to pau as a welcoming present? lol last i checked your confidence usually always rises when youre on the court with other great players...your chances of winning r better...i mean i understand where u guys r comin from sayin kobe made him more confident but come on lol

its not surprising.

these people have tried to credit kobe with everything under the sun. its just standard now.