If you hate the media comparisons of Kobe to MJ

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

then you better HOPE that Kobe does not win his second 3-peat.

Thus, you should be hoping that Team Diva DOES happen, so as to thwart that 3-peat.

[ginobli2311]

then you better HOPE that Kobe does not win his second 3-peat.

Thus, you should be hoping that Team Diva DOES happen, so as to thwart that 3-peat.

really?

team diva or the mega team already happened. they are called the lakers coached by phil jackson.

kobe/gasol/bynum/artest/fisher/odom with the greatest coach ever

LOL......got to love laker fans already trying to prop up other teams and diminish their own mega team.

[PowerGlove]

They wont reach the finals next year.


Book it!!!

So, no need for comparisons.
this will be quoted often.

[SinJackal]

really?

team diva or the mega team already happened. they are called the lakers coached by phil jackson.

kobe/gasol/bynum/artest/fisher/odom with the greatest coach ever

LOL......got to love laker fans already trying to prop up other teams and diminish their own mega team.

Didn't you know? Kobe's the only real player on the Lakers! Without him, they're a sub .500 team. /sarcasim



Considering that MJ still destroys Kobe in career averages, doing more with less, defensive ability, scoring titles, MVPs, and prestige, Kobe will NEVER be considered better than Jordan even if Kobe wins more titles than him. That is, unless Kobe flips a switch and magically becomes 20% better than he is now for the next five years.

Damn near everyone who dares to consider Kobe to be better than MJ did not watch MJ play outside of highlight videos or less than a handful of ESPN classic reruns of old finals games.

When you compare and contrast, MJ kills him in every single way, besides perhaps three point shooting. Kobe has an edge there. . .but is inferior in every other conceivable way.

[G.O.A.T.]

really?

team diva or the mega team already happened. they are called the lakers coached by phil jackson.

kobe/gasol/bynum/artest/fisher/odom with the greatest coach ever

LOL......got to love laker fans already trying to prop up other teams and diminish their own mega team.

its all about the context man

[Fatal9]

kobe/gasol/bynum/artest/fisher/odom with the greatest coach ever
You realize Bynum has been useless the last two years in the playoff runs right?

Bynum:
6.3 ppg, 3.7 rpg, as many turnovers as blocks in the 2009 run.
8.6 ppg, 6.9 rpg in 2010 run (and his stats are helped by the Thunder series where he wasn't as slowed down by injuries)
These are Luc Longley numbers.

Fisher:
8/2/2 on 39 FG%, 29% 3 pt shooting in 2009 run.
10/3/3 on 44% shooting in 2010 run.
Not to mention he is one of the worst defensive PGs in the league.

Artest:
11/4/2 on 39.8% and 29% 3 pt shooting. Huge offensive liability whose defense wasn't nearly good enough after the Thunder series to make up for how much he was hurting the team offensively.

Bench: inconsistent Odom, Shannon Brown, Jordan Farmar

:oldlol: @ mega team. Maybe if Bynum was healthy but he's done next to nothing in the last two playoff runs.

[Allstar24]

If Lebron+Bosh or Lebron+(insert all-star player) can't win a championship or reach the finals, his legacy would take a major hit, no doubt about it. Kobe only needed one other star player (Gasol) to win. Hopefully Lebron gets a good teammate this year...no more excuses. I want to see if he can win given the ideal situation.

[TrueDiesel3]

:oldlol: @ mega team. Maybe if Bynum was healthy but he's done next to nothing in the last two playoff runs.
You're right, putting your damn career on the line for the 2010 Finals obviously means nothing. :rolleyes: Not to mention their were games where Bynum did play quite well, at least in the first half.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I honestly don't think that LA can be beaten within the next two years (after which I feel Kobe's game will decline enough to make it possible) unless a team matches LA's size/length in the frontcourt. Two 7'1" trees with freakishly long arms and another 6'10"+ guy with even longer arms makes them a nightmare inside defensively and on the boards. It doesn't show up in the numbers in terms of blocked shots all the time, but in watching games it's incredibly apparent that LA's entire defense is predicated on their enormous size advantage -- guys just won't even try to challenge them inside and on the boards.

Until a team can match that, LA isn't being dethroned. Even Lebron/Wade/Bosh couldn't do it imo. Perimeter talent doesn't win championships, quality interior play and size does. That's something Kobe is very familiar with, having played with Shaq and now his ridiculous front line.

[Vragrant]

Well its a sad era for me for sure.

Thats why Im disappointed Phil Jackson is coming back. Depending on what happens in free agency the Lakers are the favourites to repeat, and the Jordan hype will be in full swing again. No one in the west is stopping them as I see it. I mean the Suns met them in the WCF:oldlol:

The way the East shakes out, Orlando is in disarray, Boston is only getting older, and the only shot is a revamped Bulls, Heat, or other rebuilt Eastern Conference squad that is loaded and in their prime.

Otherwise I dont see anybody stopping the freight train of the Lakers. They have the Hulk and Colossus on the front line with Gasol/Bynum. Too much talent, great coaching, championship experience and youth.

Funny thing is, Kobe will get all the credit. Difference between Jordan and Bryant is, I saw Jordan willing his team to titles whereas I see Kobe doing what he is supposed to be doing and winning with the most talent (the way he's won all his titles). Doesnt mean hes not a great player, but it doesnt make him Jordan either.

[alwaysunny]

Disagree. Amount of rings may equal, but other accomplishments is still on Jordan by landslide. I think comparison will get more serious when Kobe SURPASSES Jordan's rings with 7, which I can definitely see it happening.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

really?

team diva or the mega team already happened. they are called the lakers coached by phil jackson.

kobe/gasol/bynum/artest/fisher/odom with the greatest coach ever

LOL......got to love laker fans already trying to prop up other teams and diminish their own mega team.

2 all-stars = mega team?
OK. if you think so.

[TROLL_HUNTER]

2 all-stars = mega team?
OK. if you think so.

1 superstar plus 1 elite allstar plus a great coach plus a bunch of good players (Odom, Artest, Bynum, when he plays...) In my book, that makes one hell of a team. Having 2 players who can carry the team when one of them is having a night off is a luxury most teams cannot afford. we have seen it many times throughout the season. As for the second three-peat is very likely but i fail to see how can still there be comparisons between Kobe and Jordan. Jordan was never second to anybody. In the first 3 rings Shaq was the clear main man and in the current run Kobe is the main one but not performing with the dominance Jordan produced let alone the fact hes not even been the best player in quite a few nights during the playoffs.

Its very funny you are counting on the number of rings hes got regardless what he does on the court which is what truly matters. Imagine a laboratory case: Shaq is back to LA and they win 2 more rings. Shaq is a starter but his production is pretty low, like the third player in the team. would you say he (Shaq) is any greater than what he has demonstrated so far because of those 2 late rings? the logical answer is no. Anyway, logic is being raped over and over in threads like this so no wonder...

[chazzy]

lol@ people not reading the thread title. MEDIA comparisons, you don't need to write paragraphs on why Jordan is better, it's inevitable the media circus will get ridiculous if he were to win number 6.

[OnceInADECADE]

You realize Bynum has been useless the last two years in the playoff runs right?

Bynum:
6.3 ppg, 3.7 rpg, as many turnovers as blocks in the 2009 run.
8.6 ppg, 6.9 rpg in 2010 run (and his stats are helped by the Thunder series where he wasn't as slowed down by injuries)
These are Luc Longley numbers.

Fisher:
8/2/2 on 39 FG%, 29% 3 pt shooting in 2009 run.
10/3/3 on 44% shooting in 2010 run.
Not to mention he is one of the worst defensive PGs in the league.

Artest:
11/4/2 on 39.8% and 29% 3 pt shooting. Huge offensive liability whose defense wasn't nearly good enough after the Thunder series to make up for how much he was hurting the team offensively.

Bench: inconsistent Odom, Shannon Brown, Jordan Farmar

:oldlol: @ mega team. Maybe if Bynum was healthy but he's done next to nothing in the last two playoff runs.

So u r telling me without Bynum Lakers are better. U are a dumb Bro. Bynum is needed on that squad big time REAL TALKS. He is like the second most important player on that roster.

[OnceInADECADE]

then you better HOPE that Kobe does not win his second 3-peat.

Thus, you should be hoping that Team Diva DOES happen, so as to thwart that 3-peat.

OKC in 6 games unless the refs want to **** it up again!

[LAClipsFan33]

Kobe Bryant will win his 6th ring next year. I'd bet my bank account on it

[TROLL_HUNTER]

lol@ people not reading the thread title. MEDIA comparisons, you don't need to write paragraphs on why Jordan is better, it's inevitable the media circus will get ridiculous if he were to win number 6.


apollogies, then. Media circus? sis, man. we will have a huge circus with elephants and all. you can bet your life on it. its the media's job to get as hysterical as they can be otherwise they would be serving burgers instead of selling papers

[Showtime]

I don't remember MJ losing in the finals...so...no need to bring up more comparisons.

[Indian guy]

You realize Bynum has been useless the last two years in the playoff runs right?

Bynum:
6.3 ppg, 3.7 rpg, as many turnovers as blocks in the 2009 run.
8.6 ppg, 6.9 rpg in 2010 run (and his stats are helped by the Thunder series where he wasn't as slowed down by injuries)
These are Luc Longley numbers.

Fisher:
8/2/2 on 39 FG%, 29% 3 pt shooting in 2009 run.
10/3/3 on 44% shooting in 2010 run.
Not to mention he is one of the worst defensive PGs in the league.

Artest:
11/4/2 on 39.8% and 29% 3 pt shooting. Huge offensive liability whose defense wasn't nearly good enough after the Thunder series to make up for how much he was hurting the team offensively.

Bench: inconsistent Odom, Shannon Brown, Jordan Farmar

:oldlol: @ mega team. Maybe if Bynum was healthy but he's done next to nothing in the last two playoff runs.

LAKERS had 5 players with a playoff PER above 15 this year. Do you know the last championship team to accomplish that? The 03-04 Pistons - who had the best starting 5 in basketball. For comparison's sake, Bulls never had 5 players with a 15+ PER. Heck, they never even had 4 with the exception of the '91 run. And to think PER doesn't even quantify LA's biggest strength - their ridiculous size and length that makes 'em such a dominant defensive and rebounding team. They shut teams down at will in big games. That's how they win.

Gasol also had a playoff PER of 24 this year. I've checked the last 30 NBA Champions and only once has a #2 option put up a PER that high. Pippen never did it and going through each champion, no #2 man is even close to 24. Heck, a lot of champions don't have anyone with a PER that good. It's downright amazing just how incredible Gasol was this postseason. 20/11/4/2 blk/54%.

So let's stop pretending the 09-10 LAKERS weren't a loaded team. They had the best 2nd best player in basketball. The best front court and the best core. They were 2 possessions away from going 8-0 w/o Kobe this season despite facing great competition. You don't do that w/o being very talented. And I haven't even mentioned the GCOAT yet.

[ginobli2311]

LAKERS had 5 players with a playoff PER above 15 in their last playoff run. Do you know the last championship team to accomplish that? The 03-04 Pistons - who had the best starting 5 in basketball. For comparison's sake, Bulls never had 5 players with a 15+ PER. Heck, they never even had 4 with the exception of the '91 run. And to think PER doesn't even quantify LA's biggest strength - their ridiculous size and length that makes 'em such a dominant defensive and rebounding team. They shut teams down at will in big games. That's how they win.

Gasol also had a playoff PER of 24 this year. I've checked the last 20 champions and only once has a #2 option put up a PER that high. Pippen never did it.

So let's stop pretending the 09-10 LAKERS weren't a loaded team. They were 2 possessions away from going 8-0 w/o Kobe this season. You don't do that w/o being very talented. And I haven't even mentioned the GCOAT yet.

ding ding ding....we have a winner.

[macpierce]

cavaliers werent loaded? magic werent loaded? boston wasnt loaded? it takes more than talent to win you idiots, it takes greatness:cheers:

[Maneva]

I don't remember MJ losing in the finals...so...no need to bring up more comparisons.

Retarded logic.

Anyways, the comparisons are inevitable, but there's no way they start declaring Kobe as the greatest of all-time or anything, so it's all good.

[Fatal9]

LAKERS had 5 players with a playoff PER above 15 this year. Do you know the last championship team to accomplish that? The 03-04 Pistons - who had the best starting 5 in basketball. For comparison's sake, Bulls never had 5 players with a 15+ PER. Heck, they never even had 4 with the exception of the '91 run. And to think PER doesn't even quantify LA's biggest strength - their ridiculous size and length that makes 'em such a dominant defensive and rebounding team. They shut teams down at will in big games. That's how they win.
Now how about you mention that Adam Morrison is one of those five players who have a PER over 15 :roll:

Is it really worth responding to you? Have you really become THIS biased that you are adding qualifications to include Adam Morrison to as a part of a "stacked" Laker team?

Seriously, what the hell is this PER stuff. Kobe's PER last year was ~ to '92 Jordan (and higher than any of second three peat Jordan), but both of us know he wasn't playing at that level. Is this what your argument rests on? Shit, Bynum's "PER" is only high because of the first round, he was injured afterwards and was contributing nothing more than an average center. How about 2009 Lakers? They only had 3 guys over a "PER" of 15 (one of the weirdest qualifications I've seen).

[Bladers]

Jordan's fans are so butt-hurt that they can't imagine Kobe winning his 6th next year.:lol

So butt-hurt, they coudn't read the thread title.
the excuses will keep coming on how stacked Lakers are...:roll: :roll:

[ReturnofJPR]

It does not matter if Kobe wins 20 rings. MJ is unmatchable. People who matter realize that he is nothing close to His Airness.

[catch24]

Now how about you mention that Adam Morrison is one of those five players who have a PER over 15 :roll:

Is it really worth responding to you? Have you really become THIS biased that you are adding qualifications to include Adam Morrison to as a part of a "stacked" Laker team?

Seriously, what the hell is this PER stuff. Kobe's PER last year was ~ to '92 Jordan (and higher than any of second three peat Jordan), but both of us know he wasn't playing at that level. Is this what your argument rests on? Shit, Bynum's "PER" is only high because of the first round, he was injured afterwards and was contributing nothing more than an average center. How about 2009 Lakers? They only had 3 guys over a "PER" of 15 (one of the weirdest qualifications I've seen).

LMAO. There goes his argument. PER has always been flawed. According to PER Magic and Kareem aren't top 10 players.

[Bladers]

It does not matter if Kobe wins 20 rings. MJ is unmatchable. People who matter realize that he is nothing close to His Airness.


This is why MJ fans hate Kobe, Because he will retire with more rings than MJ.
If Kobe gets 8/9 rings > MJ

[ginobli2311]

This is why MJ fans hate Kobe, Because he will retire with more rings than MJ.
If Kobe gets 8/9 rings > MJ

nobody feels that way but you. kobe is simply just not on the same level as jordan in terms of the better player.

kobe can have the better career....but he's just not in jordan's class as a player.
kobe is just t-mac without injuries and great teams. or wade with great teams. he's a great player......but nobody in their right mind would put kobe up with the greatest athletes of all time.

in case you forgot. jordan is one of the five greatest athletes ever. that is the difference. jordan's greatness transcended the sport.

the reason you think people hate kobe is flawed. i don't hate kobe at all. i love watching him play and i actually want him to win much more often than i want him to lose. i rag on kobe because i am forced to by retarded kobe homers that over-rated him so much its out of control.

there are no kobe haters. only haters of the kobe homers.

[Logical]

nobody feels that way but you. kobe is simply just not on the same level as jordan in terms of the better player.

kobe can have the better career....but he's just not in jordan's class as a player.
kobe is just t-mac without injuries and great teams. or wade with great teams. he's a great player......but nobody in their right mind would put kobe up with the greatest athletes of all time.

in case you forgot. jordan is one of the five greatest athletes ever. that is the difference. jordan's greatness transcended the sport.

the reason you think people hate kobe is flawed. i don't hate kobe at all. i love watching him play and i actually want him to win much more often than i want him to lose. i rag on kobe because i am forced to by retarded kobe homers that over-rated him so much its out of control.

there are no kobe haters. only haters of the kobe homers.

Yup.

People "hate" on Jordan because he was too good.
People "hate" on Kobe because he is too overrated.

It's really easy to call someone a hater. Just overrate something or make a crazy claim, and then when someone corrects you, call them a hater.

[Courtside View]

Yup.

People "hate" on Jordan because he was too good.
People "hate" on Kobe because he is too overrated.

It's really easy to call someone a hater. Just overrate something or make a crazy claim, and then when someone corrects you, call them a hater.

This part of the Kobe Fanatic playbook. Meanwhile, they can say whatever they want about Bron, Wade, MJ, etc. but they're not "haters".

BTW, are we talking about the same media that promotes worthless, talentless reality show "stars" like Kim Kardashian, paris Hilton and all the rest of it? We're supposed to pretend that what they promote is worth a damn?

[Indian guy]

Now how about you mention that Adam Morrison is one of those five players who have a PER over 15 :roll:

I actually just clicked on PER at basketball-reference and saw 5 over 15. Assumed it must've been their core 6 excluding Fisher. It was an honest mistake. Either way, that's still 4 over 15(15 is the league average), which is still nothing to sneeze at. Hardly any champions have 4 over 15. And almost none who follow the 2 superstars+role players team make up.


(and higher than any of second three peat Jordan)

Umm, not really. Kobe's PER last year was equal to '96 MJ. But '97 and '98 MJ had a better PER.


Bynum's "PER" is only high because of the first round, he was injured afterwards and was contributing nothing more than an average center.

Even if he wasn't scoring much, he's still a huge part of that D. How many teams have the luxury of starting 2 mobile 7 footers? Come on, that's almost half the reason why LA's so good. Nobody has an answer to their size. They own the paint and that is where games are won.

[broke3113]

I dont think Kobe will sniff another title. he's severly overrated all around hes been carried to 5 titles he shouldnt be compared. in all honesty Lebrons closer to jordan

[KenneBell]

^:roll:

Anyway, I agree. The comparison are just going to become more and more prevalent.

[SinJackal]

Yup.

People "hate" on Jordan because he was too good.
People "hate" on Kobe because he is too overrated.

It's really easy to call someone a hater. Just overrate something or make a crazy claim, and then when someone corrects you, call them a hater.

Truer words have never been spoken.

[DuMa]

then you better HOPE that Kobe does not win his second 3-peat.

Thus, you should be hoping that Team Diva DOES happen, so as to thwart that 3-peat.

when did he win his first 3-peat again?

[SinJackal]

I actually just clicked on PER at basketball-reference and saw 5 over 15. Assumed it must've been their core 6 excluding Fisher. It was an honest mistake. Either way, that's still 4 over 15(15 is the league average), which is still nothing to sneeze at. Hardly any champions have 4 over 15. And almost none who follow the 2 superstars+role players team make up.



Umm, not really. Kobe's PER last year was equal to '96 MJ. But '97 and '98 MJ had a better PER.



Even if he wasn't scoring much, he's still a huge part of that D. How many teams have the luxury of starting 2 mobile 7 footers? Come on, that's almost half the reason why LA's so good. Nobody has an answer to their size. They own the paint and that is where games are won.


Um, dude. . .MJ's career average PER is 27.9. Kobe has exceeded that PER a single time in his career, with 28.0 on the dot. So for one magical season, Kobe had 0.1 PER better than Jordan's career average PER.

Also Jordan's PER in '96 was 29.4. That destroys Kobe's best season with ease. Maybe you meant '95 when Jordan came back for a dozen games after nearly 2 seasons of retirement and was rusty? Jordan still had a better PER than Kobe did last season. 22.1 vs 21.9.


So in conclusion:

Kobe's career PER: 23.5

Jordan's: 27.9.

Kobe's single best season PER: 28.0

Jordan's best season PER: 31.7

Jordan exceeded Kobe's best PER seven times, and nearly exceeded it three other times. Kobe has never come close to Jordan's career PER besides that one season where he BARELY equaled it. Oh and fyi, LeBron had a better PER than Kobe that year.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

damn...MJ fans jumped right in to this one.
next time, please pay attention to the thread title and content before getting all defensive.

[SinJackal]

damn...MJ fans jumped right in to this one.
next time, please pay attention to the thread title and content before getting all defensive.

Rofl, stop pretending everyone who posts facts is "being defensive", or "being a fan". I simply strive to prevent bogus facts from being spread, especially by fanboys.

[alwaysunny]

damn...MJ fans jumped right in to this one.
next time, please pay attention to the thread title and content before getting all defensive.

Exactly what kind of responses were you expecting?

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Rofl, stop pretending everyone who posts facts is "being defensive", or "being a fan". I simply strive to prevent bogus facts from being spread, especially by fanboys.

you missed the point of the thread.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Exactly what kind of responses were you expecting?

you're right. I should def know better by now.

[Doranku]

:oldlol: @ how butt-hurt some of you people are. It's pathetic, really.

I love how some of you act like Kobe has some unprecedented luxury of having a team that's capable of stepping up and carrying the load. You same people act like Jordan NEVER had a bad game in his life. But then, how did Jordan shoot 41% against Seattle in '96? How did they win game 6 while Jordan shot 5-19? Or how about in both game 6's against the Jazz when Jordan missed a combined 40 shots? How about when Scottie took over for the Bulls in a must win game 3 where Jordan shot 3-18?

Newsflash: Every team that wins a title has multiple players capable of stepping up. It isn't just Kobe's team.

[SinJackal]

you missed the point of the thread.

I was only replying to a single person, the point of the thread doesn't matter when I'm talking to someone specifically about their bogus claims.

Next time I make a post directed at the topic, rather than replying to a person, and I am posting off topic. . .you can complain that I missed the point of the thread. Deal? :P

[ginobli2311]

:oldlol: @ how butt-hurt some of you people are. It's pathetic, really.

I love how some of you act like Kobe has some unprecedented luxury of having a team that's capable of stepping up and carrying the load. You same people act like Jordan NEVER had a bad game in his life. But then, how did Jordan shoot 41% against Seattle in '96? How did they win game 6 while Jordan shot 5-19? Or how about in both game 6's against the Jazz when Jordan missed a combined 40 shots? How about when Scottie took over for the Bulls in a must win game 3 where Jordan shot 3-18?

Newsflash: Every team that wins a title has multiple players capable of stepping up. It isn't just Kobe's team.

very very true.

a few things though.

1. most of the criticism does not come because kobe plays with a great team. it comes because kobe has played so poorly at times in the playoffs. where has he in the 4th qtrs in the finals? where has he with game winning shots? i think even you can admit that we would think of jordan differently if it was kukoc and pippen making all the big shots in the playoffs year after year. it was artest and gasol and fisher that made the big shots this year. it was fisher last year that made the defining shots. the fact remains that kobe's level of play is not up to the standards of the all time greats. that is why he gets some hate. if he played great and shot well in the finals....nobody would be talking about gasol at all. you fail to realize that.

2. as for your post about supporting casts. i could not agree more. but you have to apply that same context and logic to guys like dirk / lebron / wade / kg in minny.......they didn't have championship level supporting casts and that is why they haven't won a lot of titles. kobe....like many other all time greats....has had the luxury of great supporting casts. so don't use that as an argument now and then hate on lebron for not winning with mo/jamison and mike brown. you can't have it both ways.

the simple fact that if you want to put kobe in that elite top 8 at some point. he has to player better in the finals and in the playoffs in general. he can't disappear for 3 or 4 games at a time. level of play is what matters most....this is just proof of it.

[SinJackal]

:oldlol: @ how butt-hurt some of you people are. It's pathetic, really.

I love how some of you act like Kobe has some unprecedented luxury of having a team that's capable of stepping up and carrying the load. You same people act like Jordan NEVER had a bad game in his life. But then, how did Jordan shoot 41% against Seattle in '96? How did they win game 6 while Jordan shot 5-19? Or how about in both game 6's against the Jazz when Jordan missed a combined 40 shots? How about when Scottie took over for the Bulls in a must win game 3 where Jordan shot 3-18?

Newsflash: Every team that wins a title has multiple players capable of stepping up. It isn't just Kobe's team.


You realize 41% is closer to Kobe's career FG% than Kobe's career FG% is to Jordan's, right? Just thought I'd point that out. Also, during this apparently dubious 5-19 game from Jordan, he nearly had a triple double, and was 11-12 from the free throw line that night.

[Doranku]

You realize 41% is closer to Kobe's career FG% than Kobe's career FG% is to Jordan's, right? Just thought I'd point that out. Also, during this apparently dubious 5-19 game from Jordan, he nearly had a triple double, and was 11-12 from the free throw line that night.
:roll:

[chazzy]

Even if he wasn't scoring much, he's still a huge part of that D. How many teams have the luxury of starting 2 mobile 7 footers?

While I agree that Bynum's presence is huge for their D, that made me LOL. Dude's been on one leg the past two playoff runs.

[Phong]

While I agree that Bynum's presence is huge for their D, that made me LOL. Dude's been on one leg the past two playoff runs.The Lakers even had to make him defend STAT or KG at some points cause he couldn't move fast enough to provide Gasol with help defense. He just had to be a big body to slow them down and hope Gasol could cover his ass.

Bynum.. mobile.. :oldlol:

[Kris75]

I have mentioned before that Jordan's teams NEVER suffered an upset, i.e. his team never lost a series where they had the home court advantage or were the higher seed. His teams always took care of business and whenever he had the best team, inevitably they won the ring. That's the mark of a truly great player - if given a good team, you got to make it count. No one can win with a bad team no matter how great they are.

If you follow Kobe Bryant's track record, it's almost as good. Ever since he became a starter 12 years ago, the only time he lost with home court advantage was in 2004, a 56-win Laker team losing to a 54-win Pistons team. Even then, we all know that that Pistons team was completely different from the one that had started the season. If you extrapolate their record after acquiring Rasheed Wallace, they were a 67-win team.

If you go through the resumes of other greats like Shaq, Duncan, Lebron etc, you will find multiple instances where they lost with higher seeded teams.

So track record suggests that if you put a good team around Kobe Bryant that you have to like your chances that he will make it count.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Seriously, what the hell is this PER stuff. Kobe's PER last year was ~ to '92 Jordan (and higher than any of second three peat Jordan), but both of us know he wasn't playing at that level.

Uhh, Kobe's PER last season (2010) was 21.9; in 2009, he had a 24.4 PER. Jordan's PERs from '92-'97 ranged from 27.7-29.7, and then at age 35 in 1998 he had a 25.2 PER. So how is Kobe's PER last year (I wasn't sure what year you were referring to) higher than any of second three-peat Jordan's and roughly equal to 1992 MJ (27.7 PER)?

Also, if you're talking about playoff PER, that's incorrect as well. Kobe's playoff PER the last two seasons has been 26.8 (2009) and 24.7 (2010). Jordan's playoff PER from '92-'98 ranged from 26.7 (1996) to 30.1 (1993). No matter which of Kobe's playoff PERs you're talking about ('09 or '10), it wasn't equal to MJ's 1992 playoff PER of 27.7, and it wasn't higher than all of MJ's second three-peat playoff PERs (MJ had a 27.1 PER in the 1997 PO's and a 28.1 PER in the '98 playoffs).

[SinJackal]

:roll:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1996/

Maybe you're too stupid to look up what he did that day, and didn't realize he was. Even if his FG% was a little down, he still got to the line enough and hit damn near every free throw, while putting up nearly a triple double. That's what real players do kid, rather than just jack up 30 shots when their jumper isn't going, while only hitting 6-8 of them like Kobe. Jordan at least had some self control when he was having an off night shooting, and looked to set up his teammates to put the ball in when his shot wasn't going.

[SinJackal]

Uhh, Kobe's PER last season (2010) was 21.9; in 2009, he had a 24.4 PER. Jordan's PERs from '92-'97 ranged from 27.7-29.7, and then at age 35 in 1998 he had a 25.2 PER. So how is Kobe's PER last year (I wasn't sure what year you were referring to) higher than any of second three-peat Jordan's and roughly equal to 1992 MJ (27.7 PER)?

Also, if you're talking about playoff PER, that's incorrect as well. Kobe's playoff PER the last two seasons has been 26.8 (2009) and 24.7 (2010). Jordan's playoff PER from '92-'98 ranged from 26.7 (1996) to 30.1 (1993). No matter which of Kobe's playoff PERs you're talking about ('09 or '10), it wasn't equal to MJ's 1992 playoff PER of 27.7, and it wasn't higher than all of MJ's second three-peat playoff PERs (MJ had a 27.1 PER in the 1997 PO's and a 28.1 PER in the '98 playoffs).

Dude, don't even bother. When you posts stats and facts, they will call you a hater. But if you post FALSE information like they do, you're embraced as a hero~

Kobe fans, always posting false or skewed info, because actual stats always prove that he isn't as good as they'd like to pretend he is. Especially when compared to MJ.

[Doctor Rivers]

http://swittersb.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/dead-horse.jpg

[Doctor Rivers]

do we not get tired of reading the same kobe/mj topics over and over again?

[SinJackal]

do we not get tired of reading the same kobe/mj topics over and over again?

I wouldn't mind if Kobe were actually close to as good as MJ was, but he isn't.

[Bladers]

I wouldn't mind if Kobe were actually close to as good as MJ was, but he isn't.

@Doctor River, According to this response, they are just getting started...
They will keep at it till Kobe retires cause they are butt hurt!
If kobe average +33pts this season and wins the championship, they will commit suicide...
They know the worse is yet to come.

[game3524]

I still don't understand why MJ fans get all butt hurt about this?

[SinJackal]

I still don't understand why MJ fans get all butt hurt about this?

They aren't butt hurt. It's just an insult that Kobe fans are comparing their A- player to Jordan's A+ game.

You don't get it. Kobe fans don't seem to "get it". I don't understand how you can't realize than your comparisons are nothing more than an annoyance to everybody who watched Jordan play. Jordan fans or not. Kobe is worse in every way besides three point shooting, which he is only slightly better. To make claims that something which is worse in nearly every way to something that is better in nearly every way gets on everyone's nerves.

That's like saying David Lee is better than Duncan. You don't need to be a Duncan fan to call bs on that. So stop pretending everyone who laughs in you and other Kobe fans faces when you try to claim he's better than MJ.

[game3524]

They aren't butt hurt. It's just an insult that Kobe fans are comparing their A- player to Jordan's A+ game.

You don't get it. Kobe fans don't seem to "get it". I don't understand how you can't realize than your comparisons are nothing more than an annoyance to everybody who watched Jordan play. Jordan fans or not. Kobe is worse in every way besides three point shooting, which he is only slightly better. To make claims that something which is worse in nearly every way to something that is better in nearly every way gets on everyone's nerves.

That's like saying David Lee is better than Duncan. You don't need to be a Duncan fan to call bs on that. So stop pretending everyone who laughs in you and other Kobe fans faces when you try to claim he's better than MJ.

I do get it, MJ is the best player of all-time no question about it. But you don't see me posting like a madman to defend him at ever corner, Kobe is a great player and an all-time great. He is going to have fans who think he is better, it is called an opinion. I don't agree with it, but hey whatever floats your boat......

There is no point getting angry about it.

[Phong]

They aren't butt hurt.

It's just an insult .. to Jordan's A+ game.

.. nothing more than an annoyance to everybody who watched Jordan play.

.. gets on everyone's nerves.

.. call bs on that. I'd say you're pretty butthurt. :confusedshrug:

[SinJackal]

I do get it, MJ is the best player of all-time no question about it. But you don't see me posting like a madman to defend him at ever corner, Kobe is a great player and an all-time great. He is going to have fans who think he is better, it is called an opinion. I don't agree with it, but hey whatever floats your boat......

There is no point getting angry about it.

I'm not posting like a madman either. You have nearly 3x as many total posts as I do. ..and I made my account quite awhile ago. I only made 2-3 real posts about it, mostly simply correcting the false information fools were trying to spread to try and prop up Kobe undeservedly.

If Kobe fans actually posted real stats that by comparison show him to be better, I wouldn't be posting anything at all about it. I just can't stand when people post false facts about anything. It doesn't need to be about MJ or Kobe.

[SinJackal]

I'd say you're pretty butthurt. :confusedshrug:

You need to stop worrying about other guys' asses.

[Bladers]

What i would say to all Jordan fans is, save your onslaught for next year...
when Kobe wins his 6 title. You know the Kobe fans would go crazy, and even the real unbiased basketball fan will support them.

Then and only then you can unleash your rage and anger that have been built up and reserved all this years...:lol

Until then, chill. No need to get mad and all bent out of shape!

[Phong]

You need to stop worrying about other guys' asses.
It's pretty ironic coming from a guy who's been glued to Jordan's ass to the point you get angry just to defend him. :oldlol:

[game3524]

I'm not posting like a madman either. You have nearly 3x as many total posts as I do. ..and I made my account quite awhile ago. I only made 2-3 real posts about it, mostly simply correcting the false information fools were trying to spread to try and prop up Kobe undeservedly.

If Kobe fans actually posted real stats that by comparison show him to be better, I wouldn't be posting anything at all about it. I just can't stand when people post false facts about anything. It doesn't need to be about MJ or Kobe.

I didn't say you in general. It also doesn't change the fact that it is their opinion, honestly who cares?

[SinJackal]

It's pretty ironic coming from a guy who's been glued to Jordan's ass to the point you get angry just to defend him. :oldlol:

You're just another dick sucker Kobe fan who likes to name call anyone who points out the flaws of your precious hero. Kobe is worse than a lot of players. If I listed them all, you would claim I was a fan of all those players, because to a blind fool like yourself, nobody can conceivably feel a player is better than Kobe unless they're a die hard fan of that player, right?

More pathetic Kobe fan logic, as usual. Yawn.

[Doctor Rivers]

I just can't stand when people post false facts about anything. It doesn't need to be about MJ or Kobe.

plenty of other BS being posted on here

[Phong]

You're just another dick sucker Kobe fan who likes to name call anyone who points out the flaws of your precious hero. Kobe is worse than a lot of players. If I listed them all, you would claim I was a fan of all those players, because to a blind fool like yourself, nobody can conceivably feel a player is better than Kobe unless they're a die hard fan of that player, right?

More pathetic Kobe fan logic, as usual. Yawn.Funny because I didn't even mention Kobe's name a single time, nor did I make crazy claims about him or MJ. You're the one who seems to be so pissed about the MJ/Kobe comparison that you feel the need to come in here and call everybody idiots and defend MJ's honor like he's your father. How do you call that kind of behavior again? Oh yeah, "sucking dick". :oldlol:


If I listed them all, you would claim I was a fan of all those players, because to a blind fool like yourself

More pathetic Kobe fan logic, as usual. Yawn.Your awesome logic at work. I didn't make any claim and yet you tell me how I would react if you had said something and tell me what I would say would be pathetic. :oldlol:

Back to my point, you're obviously butthurt by the comparisons between Kobe and MJ, and the more you post the more it shows.

[branslowski]

:lol The same faces....Same Obsessed Bryant Haters....Talk about the Bean more than his fans...

:lol @ Dude in here talkin about other things MJ did on the court wen he has a bad shooting night...But neglects the fact that Kobe had 17rebs, multiple stls, and a clutch 4th quarter (10pts in a quarter in a tight game is big)...in that game 7....AND IM NOT SAYING HE HAD A GREAT GAME...

Every Kobe thread...Expect these same moronic haters...


This forum is sh!tty...


OTC>>>>This

[SinJackal]

plenty of other BS being posted on here

I try to clear up that stuff too. Browse around some of the other threads on here, and you'll see that. ^_^



Funny because I didn't even mention Kobe's name a single time, nor did I make crazy claims about him or MJ. You're the one who seems to be so pissed about the MJ/Kobe comparison that you feel the need to come in here and call everybody idiots and defend MJ's honor like he's your father. How do you call that kind of behavior again? Oh yeah, "sucking dick". :oldlol:

Your awesome logic at work. I didn't make any claim and yet you tell me how I would react. :oldlol:

You were talking shit claiming I was being "butt hurt" for pointing out obvious facts about MJ and Kobe, i.e., you trying to defend Kobe by insulting someone who was posting stats that showed Kobe to be inferior to another player. Just because you made a worthless post devoid of information doesn't mean you didn't just tip off your true intention with your lame insults.

A dick sucking fan is someone who posts false stats, and denies everything regardless of facts presented to him, and does nothing but parade around claiming their player is great with no proof. It's synonymous with the word "fanboy". You don't seem to know anything.

Also, I'm not "pissed" about the comparison, since when you compare the two it's obvious MJ is better. The only thing that pisses me off is when people claim someone is better despite facts proving otherwise. I couldn't care less if people compare the two. It's harmless.

[branslowski]

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

:oldlol: The f*cked up thing is..This thread should be dissing the media if Kobe wins title #6...Yet MJ Nut Inspectors wanna b!tch and bash Kobe...Plus, not 1 person in this thread has even said Kobe>>Jordan...

:roll:

Kobe's Factual resume speaks for itself...

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

I couldn't care less if people compare the two. It's harmless.

and yet you go on and on and on.

So, back to the OP, is it gonna eat you up inside if Kobe wins his 2nd 3-peat and the media expound at length on the comparison (which they will)? will you curl up in a corner with a bottle of Jack and a handful of pills?

[SinJackal]

Your awesome logic at work. I didn't make any claim and yet you tell me how I would react if you had said something and tell me what I would say would be pathetic. :oldlol:

Back to my point, you're obviously butthurt by the comparisons between Kobe and MJ, and the more you post the more it shows.

Yep. You're just that predictable.



:lol The same faces....Same Obsessed Bryant Haters....Talk about the Bean more than his fans...

:lol @ Dude in here talkin about other things MJ did on the court wen he has a bad shooting night...But neglects the fact that Kobe had 17rebs, multiple stls, and a clutch 4th quarter (10pts in a quarter in a tight game is big)...in that game 7....AND IM NOT SAYING HE HAD A GREAT GAME...

Every Kobe thread...Expect these same moronic haters...


This forum is sh!tty...


OTC>>>>This

Oh shut the **** up already. Kobe has shot the Lakers into several losses this last season.

let's look at all the Lakers' losses this season with Kobe in the lineup.


First regular season game vs Mavs: 6-19, 6 rebs, 2 assist, 20 points. blowout

first reg season game vs nuggets: 7-17, 3 rebs, 2 asissts, 19 points. blowout.

vs rockets: 5-20, 1 rebound, 3 assists, 18 points. double digit loss

vs jazz: 7-24, 6 reb, 5 assists, 16 points, 8 point loss.

vs Cavs: 11-33, 10 reb, 8 assists, blowout loss. Stop jacking up shots you can't make because you're desperate to beat LeBron.

vs Suns: 14-26, 7, reb, 2 assists, blowout loss. Good shooting, but didn't set up his teammates properly.

vs Clippers: 10-30, 3 reb, 8 assists, lost by 11.

vs Portland: 14-37 (!?), 7 reb, 7 assists, lost by 9.

vs Spurs: 7-10, 1 reb, 2 assists, huge blowout. (this is shortly after he got injured though, so I give him a pass on it, even though he got schooled by George Hill repeatedly in this game).

vs Cavs again: 12-31 (sigh), 2 rebounds, 4 assists, lost by 6.


I'm too bored now to go through the rest, but you get the general idea. When the Lakers lost this year, it's when Kobe shot poorly, and rather than try to set up his teammates, he just kept jacking up shots and kept missing, while barely rebounding the barely and barely passing the ball. Just because he got a bunch of rebounds in one or two games this playoffs doesn't make up for the fact that he didn't try hard when he didn't have the ball during all those other Lakers' losses this year. Kobe personally shot the Lakers into several losses this season, while not putting in enough effort in other areas.

Facts for the win.

[SinJackal]

and yet you go on and on and on.

So, back to the OP, is it gonna eat you up inside if Kobe wins his 2nd 3-peat and the media expound at length on the comparison (which they will)? will you curl up in a corner with a bottle of Jack and a handful of pills?

I wouldn't be if people didn't reply to me, basically asking for responses.

Kobe won't 3 peat, so it doesn't matter. Even if he did, I already said it isn't going to change the debate about it since MJ is obviously better in nearly every way. It will do nothing but give Kobe fans something to annoy people with. It isn't going to change the minds of anyone who votes on the GOAT lists.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

It isn't going to change the minds of anyone who votes on the GOAT lists.

Who votes on GOAT lists?

[Doctor Rivers]

It isn't going to change the minds of anyone who votes on the GOAT lists.

i would venture to guess it would move him up the list

[SkyR#1fanCapCou]

You realize 41% is closer to Kobe's career FG% than Kobe's career FG% is to Jordan's, right? Just thought I'd point that out. Also, during this apparently dubious 5-19 game from Jordan, he nearly had a triple double, and was 11-12 from the free throw line that night.

And Jordan's not even in prime during his 2nd 3-peat.

[OldSchoolBBall]

But neglects the fact that Kobe had 17rebs, multiple stls

15 rebs, not 17. And one steal, not multiple.

[7_cody]

You guys should just watch the games for yourself and form your own judgement.

All these statistics are flawed in thousands of ways. Seriously, PER? Are you f***king serious?

Kobe is just as good as Jordan. If Kobe was able to face, say, the Utah Jazz or the Pheonix Suns in the Finals, instead of the Celtics, he would have averaged 33 + PPG on 53 % +... isn't that about what his averages were before facing the C's?

Do you guys even watch games? Michael Jordan was great, no doubt, but I remember watching him and he had HORRIBLe, HORRIBLE games... just like Kobe does. It happens to everyone. He isn't the god everyone remembers him to be.

Just watch his best game, statistically, where he scores 69 in OT. He AIRBALLS a game-winning jumpshot. Kobe can make that shot with his eyes closed. Kobe has to take much more difficult shots than that.

Open you eyes and watch them play.

[ThaRegul8r]

I just can't stand when people post false facts about anything. It doesn't need to be about MJ or Kobe.

+1

Despite the fact that I'd pretty much decided I wasn't going to post here anymore, I had to comment on this.

A lot of people are guilty of this because they have an agenda. So they distort the truth in order to further it. I've spent YEARS dispelling misinformation that gets stated as fact on various forums, but the fact is that I'm severely outnumbered, and most people don't let the truth get in the way of their agenda. Sometimes I wonder what's the point, and maybe the ignorant should just be left to their own devices since the falsehoods can't be stopped no matter how much truth you put out there.

[7_cody]

And Jordan's not even in prime during his 2nd 3-peat.

Kobe is not in his prime either. If Kobe could face, say, the Jazz in the Finals back on '05 or '06 (yes, I know they're a western team), he could put up 35 ppg on 50% shooting easily.

.

[SkyR#1fanCapCou]

Kobe is not in his prime either. If Kobe could face, say, the Jazz in the Finals back on '05 or '06 (yes, I know they're a western team), he could put up 35 ppg on 50% shooting easily.

.

This is Kobe's prime and I am LMAO over you saying 35 PPG on 50% shooting. Kobe's never averaged those numbers....couldn't even do that against Orlando in last year's Final's despite being guarded by Courtney Lee, Mikael Peitrus, and JJ Reddick.

[7_cody]

BTW, don't listen to anything Ginobili says. This is a 13 year old kid that spends 12 hours a day bashing Kobe.

He's the same guy who thinks that the Lakers could have beat the Suns without Kobe this year in the Playoffs. He also acts like Kobe played horribly in the playoffs, which isn't true, not even statiscally. He also believes that shooting poorly = playing a poor game. Still not true. He also likes to exaggerate and say that Kobe didn't step up in the Finals, and then proceed to claim that MJ would destroy the current Celtics in the Finals. Not true. Not even provable.

[7_cody]

This is Kobe's prime and I am LMAO over you saying 35 PPG on 50% shooting. Kobe's never averaged those numbers....couldn't even do that against Orlando in last year's Final's despite being guarded by Courtney Lee, Mikael Peitrus, and JJ Reddick.

No, this is not Kobe's prime. I've been watching him since '97. Kobe right now is comparable to Jordan in his second 3-peat.

Kobe averaged like 33 PPG on 53% shooting or something before the facing the Celtics... what makes you think he couldn't do that in the Finals, playing that same team back in his prime?

[SkyR#1fanCapCou]

No, this is not Kobe's prime. I've been watching him since '97. Kobe right now is comparable to Jordan in his second 3-peat.

Kobe averaged like 33 PPG on 53% shooting or something before the facing the Celtics... what makes you think he couldn't do that in the Finals, playing that same team back in his prime?

Which Jazz team are you even talking about?

[OldSchoolBBall]

LMAO @ "7 Cody." :oldlol: Kobe is "just as good as Jordan, because I said so." Yeah kid...whatever. :oldlol:

[7_cody]

Which Jazz team are you even talking about?

Current, it's just an example... you could replace current Jazz with current Suns, or whatever, but these are two teams that he shredded statistically this year in the playoffs (since all anyone cares about are PPG and FG%).

Kobe has played against a top 10 defensive team what... 3 times in his 6 Finals appearances? ('04 Pistons, '08 and '10 Celtics).

[7_cody]

LMAO @ "7 Cody." :oldlol: Kobe is "just as good as Jordan, because I said so." Yeah kid...whatever. :oldlol:

I'm just trying to say that all of these statistics being thrown out are misleading and useless. What I wanted to say was that people should watch the players play and then form an opinion based on that.

[Doranku]

:oldlol: @ SinJackal bringing up regular season losses as if they have some sort of meaning in a year where Kobe led his team to a championship while getting finals MVP.

Such an awful poster. It's baffling, really.

[SkyR#1fanCapCou]

Current, it's just an example... you could replace current Jazz with current Suns, or whatever, but these are two teams that he shredded statistically this year in the playoffs (since all anyone cares about are PPG and FG%).

Kobe has played against a top 10 defensive team what... 3 times in his 6 Finals appearances? ('04 Pistons, '08 and '10 Celtics).

Jordan faced it 5 times ('91 Lakers, '92 Trailblazers, '93 Suns, '96 Sonics, '97 Jazz)

[7_cody]

Jordan did it 4 times ('91 Lakers, '93 Suns, '96 Sonics, '97 Jazz)

I meant top 10 All-Time. Sorry for the confusion.

'97 Jazz? '93 Suns? The only great defensive team on your list is the '96 Sonics. Want me to bring up Jordans statistics for that series??

[SkyR#1fanCapCou]

I'm just trying to say that all of these statistics being thrown out are misleading and useless. What I wanted to say was that people should watch the players play and then form an opinion based on that.

I have and I chose Jordan :)

[Doranku]

Jordan in '98:

@ Boston, 7-23 with 4 assists/3 TOs

@ Cleveland, 7-17 with 1 assist/3 TOs

vs Washington, 10-28 with 3 assists/5 TOs

@ Orlando, 6-17 with 5 assists/3 TOs

@ Minnesota, 11-28 with 1 assist/3 TOs

@ Miami, 12-27 to get 26 points, 1 assist/1 TO

@ Philly, 9-23 to get 20 points, 4 assists/4 TOs

@ Utah, 17-37 (!) with 3 assists/1 TO

vs Portland, 9-26 with 3 assists/3 TOs

@ Detroit, 7-25 to get 19 points, 4 assists/2 TOs


OMG HE SHOT HIS TEAM OUT OF SO MANY GAMES OMG SCRUB OMG OMG OMG

[7_cody]

I have and I chose Jordan :)

No where did I say Kobe is better than MJ. If you watch both play, and form an opinion based solely on that, would you agree that Kobe is up there with MJ in terms of dominance and skill?

[7_cody]

Jordan in '98:

@ Boston, 7-23 with 4 assists/3 TOs

@ Cleveland, 7-17 with 1 assist/3 TOs

vs Washington, 10-28 with 3 assists/5 TOs

@ Orlando, 6-17 with 5 assists/3 TOs

@ Minnesota, 11-28 with 1 assist/3 TOs

@ Miami, 12-27 to get 26 points, 1 assist/1 TO

@ Philly, 9-23 to get 20 points, 4 assists/4 TOs

@ Utah, 17-37 (!) with 3 assists/1 TO

vs Portland, 9-26 with 3 assists/3 TOs

@ Detroit, 7-25 to get 19 points, 4 assists/2 TOs


OMG HE SHOT HIS TEAM OUT OF SO MANY GAMES OMG SCRUB OMG OMG OMG

No one remembers those games. No one remember that MJ had bad days, lots of them, just like Kobe. No one actually watches them both play... like back in Jordan's era when players couldn't even dribble left-handed (a huge exaggeration, but my point is well made).

We just remember that MJ was this GOAT that could easily score 100 points in today's league. Right?

[SkyR#1fanCapCou]

I meant top 10 All-Time. Sorry for the confusion.

'97 Jazz? '93 Suns? The only great defensive team on your list is the '96 Sonics. Want me to bring up Jordans statistics for that series??
Already got em memorized.

[OldSchoolBBall]

would you agree that Kobe is up there with MJ in terms of dominance and skill?

No. Especially not in terms of dominance. Their skill level is much closer than their dominance level (i.e., their impact on games), but even there MJ > Kobe by virtue of being a far superior off the ball player, better post player, far better team/help defender, better passer/playmaker, better rebounder etc. This all adds up to about a 10% difference in terms of impact on the court between them prime vs. prime.

[SkyR#1fanCapCou]

No where did I say Kobe is better than MJ. If you watch both play, and form an opinion based solely on that, would you agree that Kobe is up there with MJ in terms of dominance and skill?

Yes and Phil Jackson has said the same thing. He's clearly the 2nd best SG to ever play the game and right now...a top 10 player of all time, but he's not better than Jordan and if we open things up to more guys than just shooting guards, I can name plenty of players better than Kobe.

[7_cody]

Here's MJ vs. the best defense he's ever faced in the Finals (still not as good as 3 of the defenses Kobe has faced):

GM 1: 9-18 .50
GM 2: 9-22 .409
GM 3: 11-23 .478
GM 4: 6-19 .316
GM 5: 11-22 .50
GM 6: 5-19 .263

Total: 51-123 .41

Damn, MJ really would shoot 55% against the '08 Celtics.

[7_cody]

Yes and Phil Jackson has said the same thing. He's clearly the 2nd best SG to ever play the game and right now...a top 10 player of all time, but he's not better than Jordan and if we open things up to more guys than just shooting guards, I can name plenty of players better than Kobe.

Fair enough, but I don't think Phil Jackson has straight-up said MJ>Kobe. He's mentioned Kobe has better footwork and more range or something... I'd have to look it up.

[7_cody]

No. Especially not in terms of dominance. Their skill level is much closer than their dominance level (i.e., their impact on games), but even there MJ > Kobe by virtue of being a far superior off the ball player, better post player, far better team/help defender, better passer/playmaker, better rebounder etc.

Really? A better off ball player, post player, defender, passer, playmaker and rebounder? Ok, that's your opinion. As far as defense goes, Kobe is able to play lock down defense, in my opinion, he can generally shut down other super stars whenever he wants to. Of course he's had off-nights, hence the term "generally". Kobe doesn't play defense as consistenly as MJ though, I'll give you that.

Remember when Kobe shut down Leandro Barbosa in the Olympics? I can't remember, but I think he held him to like 4 pts or something... I'll look it up if you guys decide to nitpick. I remember Leandro said, "Yeah, he could do that in the NBA if he wanted to, but I don't know why he doesn't"

edit: by the way, maybe I wasn't clear, but I wanted to know if Kobe is "up there with MJ". So you're saying that MJ is just so much better than Kobe that you can't even compare? Ok, I understand. I respect your opinion, even if I think it's crap.

edit # 2, from ESPN.com - "Bryant clearly studied his homework hard, holding Barbosa -- who entered the game as the leading scorer in the tournament at 27 points per game -- to four points on 1-for-7 shooting, with four turnovers and zero assists."

Here's the link - http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/olybb/columns/story?columnist=sheridan_chris&page=USA-Brazil

[SkyR#1fanCapCou]

Fair enough, but I don't think Phil Jackson has straight-up said MJ>Kobe. He's mentioned Kobe has better footwork and more range or something... I'd have to look it up.

I've seen the video on YouTube. It's mostly talking about Phil saying Kobe is more skilled than Jordan, then goes on to say Jordan had bigger hands.....and listed a bunch of other things about MJ that he could do.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Didn't you know? Kobe's the only real player on the Lakers! Without him, they're a sub .500 team. /sarcasim



Considering that MJ still destroys Kobe in career averages, doing more with less, defensive ability, scoring titles, MVPs, and prestige, Kobe will NEVER be considered better than Jordan even if Kobe wins more titles than him. That is, unless Kobe flips a switch and magically becomes 20% better than he is now for the next five years.

Damn near everyone who dares to consider Kobe to be better than MJ did not watch MJ play outside of highlight videos or less than a handful of ESPN classic reruns of old finals games.

When you compare and contrast, MJ kills him in every single way, besides perhaps three point shooting. Kobe has an edge there. . .but is inferior in every other conceivable way.


FOR THE RECORD...
This is post #4 of the thread... the very first post of actually comparing MJ/Kobe.... dude goes off on a rant. This is NOT what the thread was about. The thread was about MEDIA comparisons, a 2nd 3-peat, and Team Diva twarting it. NOT about if Kobe is really as good as MJ!!!

But it happens EVERY FVCKING TIME. Dudes get their panties in a bunch over the comparison.

[7_cody]

I've seen the video on YouTube. It's mostly talking about Phil saying Kobe is more skilled than Jordan, then goes on to say Jordan had bigger hands.....and listed a bunch of other things about MJ that he could do.

I think I've seen that video before. But has he straight up said MJ>Kobe? I don't believe he has.

Btw, yes, Phil has said Kobe is mor eskilled. But he's never flat out said which player is better, as far as I know.

[SkyR#1fanCapCou]

Here's MJ vs. the best defense he's ever faced in the Finals (still not as good as 3 of the defenses Kobe has faced):

GM 1: 9-18 .50
GM 2: 9-22 .409
GM 3: 11-23 .478
GM 4: 6-19 .316
GM 5: 11-22 .50
GM 6: 5-19 .263

Total: 51-123 .41

Damn, MJ really would shoot 55% against the '08 Celtics.

No he wouldn't....and Jordan being guarded by the DPOY that year....Gary Peyton...didn't help him on offense.

[SkyR#1fanCapCou]

I think I've seen that video before. But has he straight up said MJ>Kobe? I don't believe he has.

No and the problem with the interview back in 2008 was that he's still coaching Kobe so of course he has to spin things so he doesn't tick off anybody.

[7_cody]

No he wouldn't....and Jordan being guarded by the DPOY that year....Gary Peyton...didn't help him on offense.

I don't think it was so much Gary Payton that bothered Jordan. No one can bother Jordan 1 on 1... same with Kobe. More of a overrall team defense. Kinda like with the Celtics.

Otherwise yeah, I agree.

BTW -- I still think MJ played great, just like I think Kobe played great. Bad shooting DOES NOT EQUAL poor play. Kobe played great. We could not have won without him. The attention he draws, the plays he makes, the defense he played, his rebounding, etc etc... he was the best in that series and pretty much everyone shot poorly. Exact same thing with MJ. They're comparable.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Here's MJ vs. the best defense he's ever faced in the Finals (still not as good as 3 of the defenses Kobe has faced):

GM 1: 9-18 .50
GM 2: 9-22 .409
GM 3: 11-23 .478
GM 4: 6-19 .316
GM 5: 11-22 .50
GM 6: 5-19 .263

Total: 51-123 .41

Damn, MJ really would shoot 55% against the '08 Celtics.

To be fair to MJ, yes he shot poorly, but did he make it up in assists? in rebounding? Kobe stunk it up from the field, but he lead his team in assists. Was 2nd in rebounding. Perhaps MJ did the same? Its all about making a contribution even when your shot is not falling. That is what a champion does... and that is probably what MJ did.

[7_cody]

No and the problem with the interview back in 2008 was that he's still coaching Kobe so of course he has to spin things so he doesn't tick off anybody.

I disagree. Phil Jackson isn't afraid to tick off Kobe, so to speak. Remember his comments about Kobe when he forced the issue to try and break Jerry West's scoring record? Heck, remember what he WROTE about him in his book? I think he was being very honest.

[7_cody]

To be fair to MJ, yes he shot poorly, but did he make it up in assists? in rebounding? Kobe stunk it up from the field, but he lead his team in assists. Was 2nd in rebounding. Perhaps MJ did the same? Its all about making a contribution even when you shot is not falling. That is what a champion does... and that is probably what MJ did.

I think MJ played great in the '96 Finals series vs the Sonics and I also think Kobe played great against the Celtics in the '10 Finals, regardless of very poor shooting percentages from both.

Only idiots like Ginobili and half this message board think that shooting poorly means you didn't play a good game, or that FG A > FG B therefore Player A> Player B.

[ginobli2311]

I think MJ played great in the '96 Finals series vs the Sonics and I also think Kobe played great against the Celtics in the '10 Finals, regardless of very poor shooting percentages from both.

Only idiots like Ginobili and half this message board think that shooting poorly means you didn't play a good game, or that FG A > FG B therefore Player A> Player B.

actually not at all. i thought kobe played poorly overall because of his terrible shot selection. lack of decisiveness with the ball. and his lack of impact in every 4th qtr but game 7.

he shot poorly and that is never good. but it was actually the above why he played poorly. anyone that thinks kobe or jordan played great in either series has standards that are way way too low for great players.

[jstern]

No and the problem with the interview back in 2008 was that he's still coaching Kobe so of course he has to spin things so he doesn't tick off anybody.
Last year, during a Jordan HOF interview Phil Jackson straight out said that Jordan is the best of all time.

[7_cody]

actually not at all. i thought kobe played poorly overall because of his terrible shot selection. lack of decisiveness with the ball. and his lack of impact in every 4th qtr but game 7.

he shot poorly and that is never good. but it was actually the above why he played poorly. anyone that thinks kobe or jordan played great in either series has standards that are way way too low for great players.

Lack of impact in every fourth quarter? Not true. Why was his shot seletion terrible? I remember him taking some RIDICULOUS shots... but only a few. Most of his shots were good looks. They just didn't go in. Lack of decisiveness... again, simply not true. He was perfectly decisive. He made crucial turnovers. Happens. He isn't perfect, he isn't a God. Neither was Michael Jordan.

How am I having low standards? If both MJ and Kobe cannot score 35 PPG on 55% shooting against great defense, then who the F*** can? Are you ... whatever.

You're expecting too much. This is real life, not NBA 2k10.

[7_cody]

Last year, during a Jordan HOF interview Phil Jackson straight out said that Jordan is the best of all time.

Didn't know that. He'll probably say the same thing at Kobe Bryant's HOF speech too.

Did he specifically say, "Michael Jordan is better than Kobe Bryant"? I don't believe so.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Really? A better off ball player, post player, defender, passer, playmaker and rebounder? Ok, that's your opinion.

No, it's not really an opinion, it's backed up by all sorts of objective data and observation. Everyone EXCEPT Kobe fans will concede all of the above.


As far as defense goes, Kobe is able to play lock down defense, in my opinion, he can generally shut down other super stars whenever he wants to. Of course he's had off-nights, hence the term "generally". Kobe doesn't play defense as consistenly as MJ though, I'll give you that.

And then there's the fact that he's not anywhere near the team/help defender Jordan was, which is the largest component of defensive impact for individual players (not one-on-one defensive ability). Kobe's individual defense, when motivated, is the area of defense where he's closest to Jordan. In every other area (team/help/off the ball defense), he's quite far behind.


So you're saying that MJ is just so much better than Kobe that you can't even compare? Ok, I understand. I respect your opinion, even if I think it's crap.

As players? Yes, I think there's a clear and distinct difference between them in terms of impact on games, and so do most sane people who aren't Kobe/Laker fans and who have seen each in their primes ('89-'93 for MJ and '06-present for Kobe). Kobe imo is not even as impactful as Bird or Magic at their peaks, so of course I don't think he's as impactful as Jordan. It's not that he's miles below, but there's a clear separation there.

When every single statistical metric points to one conclusion, and 95+% of disinterested (read: non-Kobe/Laker fan) parties agree based on observation, that's usually a proper conclusion. Not one metric like ppg or assists or EFF or whatever, but literally EVERY SINGLE AND AGGREGATE STATISTICAL MEASURE EVER DEVISED. Think about that.

[7_cody]

No, it's not really an opinion, it's backed up by all sorts of objective data and observation. Everyone EXCEPT Kobe fans will concede all of the above.



And then there's the fact that he's not anywhere near the team/help defender Jordan was, which is the largest component of defensive impact for individual players (not one-on-one defensive ability). Kobe's individual defense, when motivated, is the area of defense where he's closest to Jordan. In every other area (team/help/off the ball defense), he's quite far behind.



As players? Yes, I think there's a clear and distinct difference between them in terms of impact on games, and so do most sane people who aren't Kobe/Laker fans and who have seen each in their primes ('89-'93 for MJ and '06-present for Kobe). Kobe imo is not even as impactful as Bird or Magic at their peaks, so of course I don't think he's as impactful as Jordan. It's not that he's miles below, but there's a clear separation there.

When every single statistical metric points to one conclusion, and 95+% of disinterested (read: non-Kobe/Laker fan) parties agree based on observation, that's usually a proper conclusion. Not one metric like ppg or assists or EFF or whatever, but literally EVERY SINGLE AND AGGREGATE STATISTICAL MEASURE EVER DEVISED. Think about that.

I'd like to see you prove even 50% of the claims you just made.

IMO, I personally think MJ>Kobe, but I also think that Kobe is more skillful and is comparable to MJ. I hate it when people, like you, no offense, try to act like Kobe is no where near MJ.

All 3rd parties agree on one conclusion? No they don't.

Want me to pull up all the quotes of NBA Coaches, Players, and every other kind of NBA expert imaginable says that Kobe is just as good as MJ, Kobe is the best player in the League, Kobe has been the best player in the League for a very long time, Kobe is a better jumpshooter than MJ was, Kobe has better footwork than MJ, Kobe is more skilled than MJ was... etc etc....

How can you be any those things that I just mentioned above and not be as impactful as Bird or Magic Johnson? BTW, Magic Johnson was probably more impactful than MJ ever was, but whatever.

I guess you know more than Phil Jackson, Don Nelson, Jerry West, Magic Johnson, and every other expert out there.

edit: I've seen all those statistics. It's true, MJ seems to almost always beat Kobe in the statistics game. Usually it's a joke... like half the stats listed are barely, or slightly higher. There's so many factors that are completely ignored... like the system he plays in, the era he plays in, the kind of shots he takes, the bail out shots, the 3-point shooting, etc etc.. statistics are great only as a reference to a game you watched, they should never be used as the sole determination of comparing players, especially from different eras.

[gts]

No, it's not really an opinion, it's backed up by all sorts of objective data and observation. Everyone EXCEPT Kobe fans will concede all of the above.
oh stop with your lies... lol everyone except kobe fans


here is a podcast where dr. jack ramsey says kobe is the best closer ever to play the game and that includes jordan and anyone else from the old times of the nba

and the list goes on, kobe fans ARE NOT the only people who put him in the conversation with jordan and you know that and it kills you...

jordan fans have just broken down to making up lies now to prop up their idle it's really become quite sad

at the 6 minute mark

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/player?rd=1#/podcenter/?callsign=ESPNRADIO&autoplay=1&id=5248553

[ginobli2311]

Lack of impact in every fourth quarter? Not true. Why was his shot seletion terrible? I remember him taking some RIDICULOUS shots... but only a few. Most of his shots were good looks. They just didn't go in. Lack of decisiveness... again, simply not true. He was perfectly decisive. He made crucial turnovers. Happens. He isn't perfect, he isn't a God. Neither was Michael Jordan.

How am I having low standards? If both MJ and Kobe cannot score 35 PPG on 55% shooting against great defense, then who the F*** can? Are you ... whatever.

You're expecting too much. This is real life, not NBA 2k10.

agree to disagree.

he held the ball far too long on the wing on one with ray allen and settled for far too many contested jumpers. he needed to be attacking and opening things up for his teammates. that is exactly what mj did against the sonics.

you think artest was bad? try watching pippen or kerr or kukoc in the 96 finals. they literally could not get anything to go in.

so you think he was good in the 4th qtr????? 25% from the field and costly turnovers in crunch time.

again...your standards are far too low. wade played great against the celtics this year. you clearly don't understand what the word great means.

[ProfessorMurder]

Is 7_cody 7 years old?

[7_cody]

Is 7_cody 7 years old?

I must be pretty damn smart for a 7 year old ;)

[7_cody]

agree to disagree.

he held the ball far too long on the wing on one with ray allen and settled for far too many contested jumpers. he needed to be attacking and opening things up for his teammates. that is exactly what mj did against the sonics.

you think artest was bad? try watching pippen or kerr or kukoc in the 96 finals. they literally could not get anything to go in.

so you think he was good in the 4th qtr????? 25% from the field and costly turnovers in crunch time.

again...your standards are far too low. wade played great against the celtics this year. you clearly don't understand what the word great means.

I could easily rewatch MJ against the Sonics and point out everything he did wrong. What you're doing with Kobe, making it sound like he played horribly, could be done to any player. Again, get this through your skull, missed shots does not equal a bad game. Kobe had a good game 7. He attacked and drew crucial free-throws. He kept Rondo off the boards late in the game. He played a good game.

[SkyR#1fanCapCou]

I disagree. Phil Jackson isn't afraid to tick off Kobe, so to speak. Remember his comments about Kobe when he forced the issue to try and break Jerry West's scoring record? Heck, remember what he WROTE about him in his book? I think he was being very honest.

I don't know when or what he said in regards to Kobe trying to break West's scoring record. I've heard about what he wrote about Kobe in his book, but wasn't that while he wasn't coaching Kobe?

[7_cody]

I don't know when or what he said in regards to Kobe trying to break West's scoring record. I've heard about what he wrote about Kobe in his book, but wasn't that while he wasn't coaching Kobe?

Yes, but trust me, he's called Kobe out plenty of times and he will continue to do so while coaching Kobe. He isn't afraid to tell it how it is.

[ginobli2311]

I could easily rewatch MJ against the Sonics and point out everything he did wrong. What you're doing with Kobe, making it sound like he played horribly, could be done to any player. Again, get this through your skull, missed shots does not equal a bad game. Kobe had a good game 7. He attacked and drew crucial free-throws. He kept Rondo off the boards late in the game. He played a good game.

first off. no...kobe did not have a good game 7. he had a good 4th qtr. his team was down 13 points in the 2nd half of an elimination game and he has 3-17 and was forcing up terrible shot after terrible shot. that is the point....its not the misses....its that he had no business getting up 24 shots in that game. 6 of those shots were terrible forces....but that is how he played all series.

you clearly don't understand how important running the offense and moving the ball is in basketball. kobe failed to play team ball for the majority of the series. kobe played a masterful game 6 and was fantastic. he was decisive. he moved the ball. and he didn't jack up terrible shots out of slow developing iso situations. and what do you know....that game was over after the first qtr.

like i said. agree to disagree. but if you think kobe played a good game 7 then you are clearly biased or delusional.

[7_cody]

first off. no...kobe did not have a good game 7. he had a good 4th qtr. his team was down 13 points in the 2nd half of an elimination game and he has 3-17 and was forcing up terrible shot after terrible shot. that is the point....its not the misses....its that he had no business getting up 24 shots in that game. 6 of those shots were terrible forces....but that is how he played all series.

you clearly don't understand how important running the offense and moving the ball is in basketball. kobe failed to play team ball for the majority of the series. kobe played a masterful game 6 and was fantastic. he was decisive. he moved the ball. and he didn't jack up terrible shots out of slow developing iso situations. and what do you know....that game was over after the first qtr.

like i said. agree to disagree. but if you think kobe played a good game 7 then you are clearly biased or delusional.

No, that's not true. Kobe played the same that he played all year long. You don't think he's doing what Phil Jackson wants him to do? LOL SERIOUSLY?

He also played the same in game 6. Know the difference? His shots were going in. When Kobe was 3-17 (really? I'd have to verify, but I know it wasn't good. Hopefully you're being honest here), he was taking good shots. I remember him taking a couple hard ones, like the corner fadeaway against KG + PP and a couple other ones. But most of them were good looks.

And yes, Kobe did have business in putting up 24 shots. You know what would happen if Kobe stopped shooting like you want him to? Teams would stop gearing the ENTIRE DEFENSE to KOBE BRYANT. His teammates would face FAR GREATER defensive pressure.

Kobe follows the game plan, OMG, WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT? Missed shots do not equal poor games.

[ginobli2311]

No, that's not true. Kobe played the same that he played all year long. You don't think he's doing what Phil Jackson wants him to do? LOL SERIOUSLY?

He also played the same in game 6. Know the difference? His shots were going in. When Kobe was 3-17 (really? I'd have to verify, but I know it wasn't good. Hopefully you're being honest here), he was taking good shots. I remember him taking a couple hard ones, like the corner fadeaway against KG + PP and a couple other ones. But most of them were good looks.

And yes, Kobe did have business in putting up 24 shots. You know what would happen if Kobe stopped shooting like you want him to? Teams would stop gearing the ENTIRE DEFENSE to KOBE BRYANT. His teammates would face FAR GREATER defensive pressure.

Kobe follows the game plan, OMG, WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT? Missed shots do not equal poor games.


i never said missed shots equal poor games. never!

now. you are dead wrong about game 7. if you can't concede that he was pressing and forcing big time then this really isn't worth the time to debate.

kobe shot 21.5 shots per game this year for the lakers. yet.....he shot:

22 / 20 / 29 / 22 / 19 / 24.....in the finals. and the worst thing is that the celtics were chasing kobe when he drove.....so it opened up passing lanes. and kobe still got up more shots per game than he did all year against normal defense. if that is not the definition of shot jacking i don't know what is.

and again. i never said kobe played a terrible series. he just didn't play a good series. thats it. he struggled to score efficiently, he was bad in the 4th qtrs, he turned it over in crucial spots in crunch time, and he played a really bad game 7.

i don't consider the above playing great or good. i consider that playing poorly overall.

[7_cody]

i never said missed shots equal poor games. never!

now. you are dead wrong about game 7. if you can't concede that he was pressing and forcing big time then this really isn't worth the time to debate.

kobe shot 21.5 shots per game this year for the lakers. yet.....he shot:

22 / 20 / 29 / 22 / 19 / 24.....in the finals. and the worst thing is that the celtics were chasing kobe when he drove.....so it opened up passing lanes. and kobe still got up more shots per game than he did all year against normal defense. if that is not the definition of shot jacking i don't know what is.

and again. i never said kobe played a terrible series. he just didn't play a good series. thats it. he struggled to score efficiently, he was bad in the 4th qtrs, he turned it over in crucial spots in crunch time, and he played a really bad game 7.

i don't consider the above playing great or good. i consider that playing poorly overall.

He stuck to the game plan. You're insane if you think Phil doesn't want him taking those shots. I guess the game plan must have been for Kobe to shot jack huh? Whatever the game plan was, it worked, we won. Get over it.

I would agree that he didn't dominate the series. But he played very well. Did MJ score efficiently against the '96 Sonics? Nope. Shot jacking I guess.. he played so poorly. If the GOAT couldn't do it all, then I guess Kobe should be able to.

And continuously using Kobe's fg % as the reason why he played poorly = saying that Kobe shooting poorly equals he played poorly. You're biggest harp on Kobe has been his shooting % and all the other statistics you have. Nice, you must be an expert with all those stats.

[ginobli2311]

He stuck to the game plan. You're insane if you think Phil doesn't want him taking those shots. I guess the game plan must have been for Kobe to shot jack huh? Whatever the game plan was, it worked, we won. Get over it.

I would agree that he didn't dominate the series. But he played very well. Did MJ score efficiently against the '96 Sonics? Nope. Shot jacking I guess.. he played so poorly. If the GOAT couldn't do it all, then I guess Kobe should be able to.

And continuously using Kobe's fg % as the reason why he played poorly = saying that Kobe shooting poorly equals he played poorly. You're biggest harp on Kobe has been his shooting % and all the other statistics you have. Nice, you must be an expert with all those stats.

why do i have to start every post by saying its not just fg%. its a combination of all things i have already posted.

just so you know. jordan shot a little less than 21 times a game. kobe shot over 23 shots a game. if you knew both series....you would know that the bulls other players were far worse overall than the other lakers were. for example....kerr shot under 25% in 4 out of the six games of the series and pippen shot 36% or under in 4 out of the six games.

so even though jordan's teammates were much worse and struggling a ton....he still shot 2 less times per game than kobe.

i don't want to rehash all this stuff

agree to disagree.

[7_cody]

why do i have to start every post by saying its not just fg%. its a combination of all things i have already posted.

just so you know. jordan shot a little less than 21 times a game. kobe shot over 23 shots a game. if you knew both series....you would know that the bulls other players were far worse overall than the other lakers were. for example....kerr shot under 25% in 4 out of the six games of the series and pippen shot 36% or under in 4 out of the six games.

so even though jordan's teammates were much worse and struggling a ton....he still shot 2 less times per game than kobe.

i don't want to rehash all this stuff

agree to disagree.

Wow, 2 shots. Kobe was sot jackng MJ wasn't because of 2 shots a game. And MJ's teammates played far inferior to Kobe's because of a couple of fg % stats. Once again you're resorting to meaningless stats.

Trust me, most of those stats are meaningless. It was a different series, two different teams, and in a different era. How can you even compare? Especially when its a 2 shots per game difference we're talking about...

Do you want Pau Gasols numbers on the road? Ron Artest in every game I think except game 7??

Give me a second, I'll go dig them up and do a quick edit on this post

[OldSchoolBBall]

I'd like to see you prove even 50% of the claims you just made.

You can look at rpg, apg, TRB%, AST%, TO%, steals/gm, blk/gm etc. That will show you that Jordan is a better rebounder, passer/playmaker, and off ball/help defender. That's 50% of the claims I made.



edit: I've seen all those statistics. It's true, MJ seems to almost always beat Kobe in the statistics game. Usually it's a joke... like half the stats listed are barely, or slightly higher.

Actually no, they're all usually at least 9-12% higher, both raw stats and pace adjusted and aggregate stats. Try again.


There's so many factors that are completely ignored... like the system he plays in

You mean the same one MJ played in for 7 seasons?


the era he plays in

Era differences are accounted for by pace-adjusted statistics, as well as by considering not only the numbers, but also how Kobe compares to his peers (i.e., to what extent he dominates or doesn't dominate the league he plays in; if Kobe doesn't dominate the league as much as some of his peers, he can't possibly be as dominant as other all-time greats like MJ/KAJ/Wilt/Shaq etc.).


the kind of shots he takes

Whose fault is that? His basketball IQ, court awareness, and decision making are all worse than Jordan's. Why should we penalize MJ for being better than Kobe in these areas just to make Kobe look better?


the bail out shots

Jordan took just as many, if not more, bail-out shots than Kobe does.


the 3-point shooting

Accounted for by eFG% and TS%. And, again, whose fault is it that Kobe takes as many threes as he has in his career? He's either not athletic enough or not smart or skilled enough to get better looks. He has no one to blame for that but himself.


statistics are great only as a reference to a game you watched, they should never be used as the sole determination of comparing players, especially from different eras.

lol @ talking about "different eras" when Jordan retired from the Bulls two years AFTER Kobe entered the league, and he was still playing and putting up 25/6/5 at age 39 when Kobe was arguably at his peak as a player. Keep deluding yourself thinking that Jordan wouldn't dominate this era just as much as he did his own. :oldlol:

[ginobli2311]

Wow, 2 shots. Kobe was sot jackng MJ wasn't because of 2 shots a game. And MJ's teammates played far inferior to Kobe's because of a couple of fg % stats. Once again you're resorting to meaningless stats.

Trust me, most of those stats are meaningless. It was a different series, two different teams, and in a different era. How can you even compare? Especially when its a 2 shots per game difference we're talking about...

Do you want Pau Gasols numbers on the road? Ron Artest in every game I think except game 7??

Give me a second, I'll go dig them up and do a quick edit on this post

its not meaningless when your sharp shooter in kerr is in the worst shooting slump of his life. its not meaningless when you 2nd banana is hurt and is providing about half of what you are used to. its not meaningless when your starting pg in ron harper only played over 30 minutes three times due to injury and was ineffective to say the least in the games he actually played. its not meaningless when kukoc can't throw it in the ocean for 4 of the 6 games.

stats just illustrate what happened. why do you hate stats so much. a big reason why the bulls won was because of rodman's rebounding. are his rebounding numbers meaningless???????? hardly.

[7_cody]

its not meaningless when your sharp shooter in kerr is in the worst shooting slump of his life. its not meaningless when you 2nd banana is hurt and is providing about half of what you are used to. its not meaningless when your starting pg in ron harper only played over 30 minutes three times due to injury and was ineffective to say the least in the games he actually played. its not meaningless when kukoc can't throw it in the ocean for 4 of the 6 games.

stats just illustrate what happened. why do you hate stats so much. a big reason why the bulls won was because of rodman's rebounding. are his rebounding numbers meaningless???????? hardly.

Good god, I can do the same thing you're doing. FG % does not account fo rall those excuses you just made.

It's not meangingless when Andrew Bynum is playing on one leg. It's not meaningless when Kobe's teammates dissapear on the road. It's not meaningless when Ron can't make a shot to save his life until game 7. Blah blah blah...

[ginobli2311]

You can look at rpg, apg, TRB%, AST%, TO%, steals/gm, blk/gm etc. That will show you that Jordan is a better rebounder, passer/playmaker, and off ball/help defender. That's 50% of the claims I made.



Actually no, they're all usually at least 9-12% higher, both raw stats and pace adjusted and aggregate stats. Try again.



You mean the same one MJ played in for 7 seasons?



Era differences are accounted for by pace-adjusted statistics, as well as by considering not only the numbers, but also how Kobe compares to his peers (i.e., to what extent he dominates or doesn't dominate the league he plays in; if Kobe doesn't dominate the league as much as some of his peers, he can't possibly be as dominant as other all-time greats like MJ/KAJ/Wilt/Shaq etc.).



Whose fault is that? His basketball IQ, court awareness, and decision making are all worse than Jordan's. Why should we penalize MJ for being better than Kobe in these areas just to make Kobe look better?



Jordan took just as many, if not more, bail-out shots than Kobe does.



Accounted for by eFG% and TS%. And, again, whose fault is it that Kobe takes as many threes as he has in his career? He's either not athletic enough or not smart or skilled enough to get better looks. He has no one to blame for that but himself.



lol @ talking about "different eras" when Jordan retired from the Bulls two years AFTER Kobe entered the league, and he was still playing and putting up 25/6/5 at age 39 when Kobe was arguably at his peak as a player. Keep deluding yourself thinking that Jordan wouldn't dominate this era just as much as he did his own. :oldlol:

nice post. well said.

[7_cody]

You can look at rpg, apg, TRB%, AST%, TO%, steals/gm, blk/gm etc. That will show you that Jordan is a better rebounder, passer/playmaker, and off ball/help defender. That's 50% of the claims I made.



Actually no, they're all usually at least 9-12% higher, both raw stats and pace adjusted and aggregate stats. Try again.



You mean the same one MJ played in for 7 seasons?



Era differences are accounted for by pace-adjusted statistics, as well as by considering not only the numbers, but also how Kobe compares to his peers (i.e., to what extent he dominates or doesn't dominate the league he plays in; if Kobe doesn't dominate the league as much as some of his peers, he can't possibly be as dominant as other all-time greats like MJ/KAJ/Wilt/Shaq etc.).



Whose fault is that? His basketball IQ, court awareness, and decision making are all worse than Jordan's. Why should we penalize MJ for being better than Kobe in these areas just to make Kobe look better?



Jordan took just as many, if not more, bail-out shots than Kobe does.



Accounted for by eFG% and TS%. And, again, whose fault is it that Kobe takes as many threes as he has in his career? He's either not athletic enough or not smart or skilled enough to get better looks. He has no one to blame for that but himself.



lol @ talking about "different eras" when Jordan retired from the Bulls two years AFTER Kobe entered the league, and he was still playing and putting up 25/6/5 at age 39 when Kobe was arguably at his peak as a player. Keep deluding yourself thinking that Jordan wouldn't dominate this era just as much as he did his own. :oldlol:

Okay, if you ever want to know who the better player is, just look up stats. Stats are great for referecning a recent game you watched, or refreshing memory. That's about it.

I never knew it was that easy. Wilt Chamberlan is the greatest player to play the game, not MJ. Just look at his scoring records. See how easy that was? Look at his record-breaking stats! Adjust for pace, blah blah blah, he's the greatest. MJ isn't even top 3 anymore is he?

edit: BTW, I was talking about the claims that every 3rd party thinks MJ>Kobe, or that only Kobe fans think that Kobe is the best player, and couple other retarded claims that you made.

[ginobli2311]

Okay, if you ever want to know who the better player is, just look up stats. Stats are great for referecning a recent game you watched, or refreshing memory. That's about it.

I never knew it was that easy. Wilt Chamberlan is the greatest player to play the game, not MJ. Just look at his scoring records. See how easy that was? Look at his record-breaking stats! Adjust for pace, blah blah blah, he's the greatest. MJ isn't even top 3 anymore is he?

actually he is. its not all about just stats. but do you really want to talk about how much better jordan was defensively????? or how much more consistent jordan was than kobe?

its a combination of a lot of things. things like mvp awards shares...do you consider that a stat?

you can't just ignore everything and say "watch the game and you'll see". we did watch the games. my eyes tell me that jordan is head and shoulders above kobe. they tell me that wade is better than kobe. they tell me that lebron is better than kobe. stats merely back up what i saw with my eyes.......

[7_cody]

Here's the all-time top 5 PPG career averages:

1. Michael Jordan* 30.12
2. Wilt Chamberlain* 30.07
3. LeBron James 27.83
4. Elgin Baylor* 27.36
5. Jerry West* 27.03

Hence, Michael Jordan is the #1 best player to ever play the game, Wilt #2, and LeBron James is the 3rd greatest player of all TIME!

I'm starting to love this stat thing. THis is too easy! We don't need insightful observations, or even film to watch!

Let's try a more advanced stats, PER

Top historical ONE season PER's:

Michael Jordan 31.89
LeBron James 31.69
Shaquille O'Neal 30.62
Kobe Bryant 2005-06 28.11
Larry Bird 1984-85 26.54

HEY! Kobe is top 5 now! I like it! MJ is the greatest player of all time, then LeBron James, then Shaquille O'Neal! This is fun!!!

[7_cody]

actually he is. its not all about just stats. but do you really want to talk about how much better jordan was defensively????? or how much more consistent jordan was than kobe?

its a combination of a lot of things. things like mvp awards shares...do you consider that a stat?

you can't just ignore everything and say "watch the game and you'll see". we did watch the games. my eyes tell me that jordan is head and shoulders above kobe. they tell me that wade is better than kobe. they tell me that lebron is better than kobe. stats merely back up what i saw with my eyes.......

Ok, that's fair, but you haven't been using that as you're argument. You've been using PPG and FG% etc...

A great majority of NBA Coaches and experts do not pick Wade or LeBron as the #1 player today.

[ginobli2311]

Here's the all-time top 5 PPG career averages:

1. Michael Jordan* 30.12
2. Wilt Chamberlain* 30.07
3. LeBron James 27.83
4. Elgin Baylor* 27.36
5. Jerry West* 27.03

Hence, Michael Jordan is the #1 best player to ever play the game, Wilt #2, and LeBron James is the 3rd greatest player of all TIME!

I'm starting to love this stat thing. THis is too easy! We don't need insightful observations, or even film to watch!

Let's try a more advanced stats, PER

Top historical ONE season PER's:

Michael Jordan 31.89
LeBron James 31.69
Shaquille O'Neal 30.62
Kobe Bryant 2005-06 28.11
Larry Bird 1984-85 26.54

HEY! Kobe is top 5 now! I like it! MJ is the greatest player of all time, then LeBron James, then Shaquille O'Neal! This is fun!!!

at least use a better stat than ppg if you are going to crazy. its all about context. things like PER and mvp awards shares are very valuable information but they have to be used in context. clearly kobe is better than david robinson.

using context is what debating and analysis is all about.

[7_cody]

at least use a better stat than ppg if you are going to crazy. its all about context. things like PER and mvp awards shares are very valuable information but they have to be used in context. clearly kobe is better than david robinson.

using context is what debating and analysis is all about.

It was sarcasm.

[ginobli2311]

Ok, that's fair, but you haven't been using that as you're argument. You've been using PPG and FG% etc...

A great majority of NBA Coaches and experts do not pick Wade or LeBron as the #1 player today.

no...i wasn't using them as my argument. i was just showing that wade was right there with kobe/lebron in terms of performance. it doesn't mean everything of course.

context....that is what it is all about. for example....antawn jamison's stats are very similar to gasol. but anyone that knows the game knows that gasol is literally ten times the player jamison ever was.

that is not the case when comparing lebron/wade/kobe. they are all on the same level in terms of play. its not like i am picking vince carter and going to town about his peak years or something.

i am talking about wade here. a champion and finals mvp and a player that has the 6th best PER ever. he is in the elite group all time. he is missing longevity....thats really it. that is why stats are more apt in a comparison between jordan and kobe and lebron and wade. they are all great players.....all elite talents. we could never separate them if everyone just said...."watch the games"

[ginobli2311]

It was sarcasm.

i know....so was my ppg comment.

[7_cody]

no...i wasn't using them as my argument. i was just showing that wade was right there with kobe/lebron in terms of performance. it doesn't mean everything of course.

context....that is what it is all about. for example....antawn jamison's stats are very similar to gasol. but anyone that knows the game knows that gasol is literally ten times the player jamison ever was.

that is not the case when comparing lebron/wade/kobe. they are all on the same level in terms of play. its not like i am picking vince carter and going to town about his peak years or something.

i am talking about wade here. a champion and finals mvp and a player that has the 6th best PER ever. he is in the elite group all time. he is missing longevity....thats really it. that is why stats are more apt in a comparison between jordan and kobe and lebron and wade. they are all great players.....all elite talents. we could never separate them if everyone just said...."watch the games"

I mentioned that we should watch the games because a lot of people seem to resort to only statistics.

I liked it when you mentioned turnovers, decisiveness and the vew few specific examples of bad plays that Kobe made.

I also liked OldSchoolsBballs comments about help defense and a few other observations he made. But 90% of what he said was meaningless statistical bullsh&*.

If you look at the stats, you'd think Kobe played very poorly in the Finals (at least his shooting). However, if you know a little about how Basketball works and watched the games, you'd know that he actually played quite well.

I guess stats are nice because you can't always just "explain" what you can see, but you can always throw out stats!

[ginobli2311]

I mentioned that we should watch the games because a lot of people seem to resort to only statistics.

I liked it when you mentioned turnovers, decisiveness and the vew few specific examples of bad plays that Kobe made.

I also liked OldSchoolsBballs comments about help defense and a few other observations he made. But 90% of what he said was meaningless statistical bullsh&*.

If you look at the stats, you'd think Kobe played very poorly in the Finals (at least his shooting). However, if you know a little about how Basketball works and watched the games, you'd know that he actually played quite well.

I guess stats are nice because you can't always just "explain" what you can see, but you can always throw out stats!

yea...i'm on board with some of that.

we still really disagree about how kobe played in the finals. i don't think he played terrible or anything....but he didn't play well in my opinion.

good debate though. i'm out.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Okay, if you ever want to know who the better player is, just look up stats. Stats are great for referecning a recent game you watched, or refreshing memory. That's about it.

I never knew it was that easy. Wilt Chamberlan is the greatest player to play the game, not MJ. Just look at his scoring records. See how easy that was? Look at his record-breaking stats! Adjust for pace, blah blah blah, he's the greatest. MJ isn't even top 3 anymore is he?

Actually, in all pace adjusted metrics (PER, Win Shares, Player Wins, Wins Produced, ORtg when accounting for volume scorers etc.), Jordan is usually first or, at worst, top 3 all time along with Wilt and KAJ. So yeah, you couldn't be more wrong.

I didn't say every 3rd party thinks anything, only that 95% of people who have seen both in their primes do. And when millions of people have seen MJ and only maybe a half dozen or so will say anything even APPROACHING the ludicrous claims Kobe fans make, it tells you something.

It baffles me that anyone could watch the two and determine that Kobe is a better player. As a ball player myself, the difference in their ability and impact is pretty clear. Not huge, but clear.

[7_cody]

Actually, in all pace adjusted metrics (PER, Win Shares, Player Wins, Wins Produced, ORtg when accounting for volume scorers etc.), Jordan is usually first or, at worst, top 3 all time along with Wilt and KAJ. So yeah, you couldn't be more wrong.

I didn't say every 3rd party thinks anything, only that 95% of people who have seen both in their primes do. And when millions of people have seen MJ and only maybe a half dozen or so will say anything even APPROACHING the ludicrous claims Kobe fans make, it tells you something.

It baffles me that anyone could watch the two and determine that Kobe is a better player. As a ball player myself, the difference in their ability and impact is pretty clear. Not huge, but clear.

Everything in the bolded is simply untrue. I don't know what else I can say, it's just not true.

Also, I disagree with your last paragraph. I can EASILY see why someone might think Kobe is better than MJ. Why not?

My personal opinion from watching both players my whole life is that Kobe is more skilled, but otherwise just as good. I think MJ>Kobe. If I'm a team owner and I get to pick either one in their prime... maybe MJ, just because his decision-making was so much better and he always playe dso damn efficiently attacking the rim often (similar to Wade, also why I love Wade so much). I get annoyed when Kobe doesn't attack the rim, he's so unstoppable when he does. But I can understand why he wasn't able to attack against the Celtics, especially with Bynum and Gasol down low.

[EricForman]

You realize Bynum has been useless the last two years in the playoff runs right?

Bynum:
6.3 ppg, 3.7 rpg, as many turnovers as blocks in the 2009 run.
8.6 ppg, 6.9 rpg in 2010 run (and his stats are helped by the Thunder series where he wasn't as slowed down by injuries)
These are Luc Longley numbers.

Fisher:
8/2/2 on 39 FG%, 29% 3 pt shooting in 2009 run.
10/3/3 on 44% shooting in 2010 run.
Not to mention he is one of the worst defensive PGs in the league.

Artest:
11/4/2 on 39.8% and 29% 3 pt shooting. Huge offensive liability whose defense wasn't nearly good enough after the Thunder series to make up for how much he was hurting the team offensively.

Bench: inconsistent Odom, Shannon Brown, Jordan Farmar

:oldlol: @ mega team. Maybe if Bynum was healthy but he's done next to nothing in the last two playoff runs.


you are so ungrateful it isn't even funny. bashing artest fisher odom bynum again?

let's put it this way, not since the 80s have i seen a team where the 4th best guy could go for 20/5/5 in the finals, the 5th best guy could go for 19/19 in the playoffs, and the 6th best guy may be one of the clutchest role players ever and carry a team in the 4th quarter of the finals.

[RazorBaLade]

you are so ungrateful it isn't even funny. bashing artest fisher odom bynum again?

let's put it this way, not since the 80s have i seen a team where the 4th best guy could go for 20/5/5 in the finals, the 5th best guy could go for 19/19 in the playoffs, and the 6th best guy may be one of the clutchest role players ever and carry a team in the 4th quarter of the finals.

even kwame brown has a career high. chill. both of u guys take it to far

[mamba24]

this ginobli guy really needs a life from hating...lol Pau gasol had not made an all star appearance in years...and he joins the lakers and suddenly he's the best thing to happen since slice bread.

His kobe does not make team mates better which is always his 1st comment is wrong as 3 finals appearances should show that

The sad thing for him is history only remembers the victors and as much as you keep posting your so called logical posts...no one give a damn...but please dont stop...i like reading crap now and then. it makes retarded people look smart.

[mamba24]

So u r telling me without Bynum Lakers are better. U are a dumb Bro. Bynum is needed on that squad big time REAL TALKS. He is like the second most important player on that roster.

2nd most important player...lol...it shows you know nothing about ball.

Kobe - Gasol - odom - Artest - and then bynum...that too injured past two seasons.

i dont expect you to watch a single laker game. if you hate the team you def dont watch it...unless your shameless...hence you dont have a say on my team...go suck beasleys balls or something...he's going nuts.

[BlueandGold]

this ginobli guy really needs a life from hating...lol Pau gasol had not made an all star appearance in years...and he joins the lakers and suddenly he's the best thing to happen since slice bread.

His kobe does not make team mates better which is always his 1st comment is wrong as 3 finals appearances should show that

The sad thing for him is history only remembers the victors and as much as you keep posting your so called logical posts...no one give a damn...but please dont stop...i like reading crap now and then. it makes retarded people look smart.

+1, anything he says about kobe is null and void at this point. No one really cares how much he hates kobe. In the end 5 rings > 0 finals wins.

[alexandreben]

People give too much weight to winning and rings, too less to the context and how the player plays..

The player who has the best career doesn't mean he is the best player.

[MakeHistory78]

LOL this thread.
Kobe isn't even close to the Master.He has 2 rings as the best player of his team.Shaq was the man in 3 of Kobes 5 rings.
Only morons and 20 years old youngsters compare Kobe to the GOAT Michael Jordan.
He'll win another ring and so what?Still miles away from MJ.
Don't be stupid.Media will continue the comparison but at the end of the day they all know that MJ>>>>>Kobe.
http://www.mypodcast.com/fmimage-4-163922.jpeg

[Calabis]

You realize Bynum has been useless the last two years in the playoff runs right?

Bynum:
6.3 ppg, 3.7 rpg, as many turnovers as blocks in the 2009 run.
8.6 ppg, 6.9 rpg in 2010 run (and his stats are helped by the Thunder series where he wasn't as slowed down by injuries)
These are Luc Longley numbers. in about 25 minutes of play

Fisher:
8/2/2 on 39 FG%, 29% 3 pt shooting in 2009 run.
10/3/3 on 44% shooting in 2010 run.
Not to mention he is one of the worst defensive PGs in the league.

Artest:
11/4/2 on 39.8% and 29% 3 pt shooting. Huge offensive liability whose defense wasn't nearly good enough after the Thunder series to make up for how much he was hurting the team offensively.

Bench: inconsistent Odom, Shannon Brown, Jordan Farmar

:oldlol: @ mega team. Maybe if Bynum was healthy but he's done next to nothing in the last two playoff runs.

Fixed it for you

[Calabis]

This is why MJ fans hate Kobe, Because he will retire with more rings than MJ.
If Kobe gets 8/9 rings > MJ

LMAO...If Jordan was riding the coattails of another player for 3 chips and played worse(than regular season) in playoffs and finals...no one would consider him the GOAT...once you Kobe fanatics realize that then you will understand rings don't mean crap...Especially when 4 of your 5 chips, you played second fiddle(reference finals performances).

According to you, Kobe needs to win two more, or he will go down as the second best player of his generation behind Robert Horry

[Calabis]

Jordan in '98:

@ Boston, 7-23 with 4 assists/3 TOs

@ Cleveland, 7-17 with 1 assist/3 TOs

vs Washington, 10-28 with 3 assists/5 TOs

@ Orlando, 6-17 with 5 assists/3 TOs

@ Minnesota, 11-28 with 1 assist/3 TOs

@ Miami, 12-27 to get 26 points, 1 assist/1 TO

@ Philly, 9-23 to get 20 points, 4 assists/4 TOs

@ Utah, 17-37 (!) with 3 assists/1 TO LMAO better than Kobe's career percentage 46%

vs Portland, 9-26 with 3 assists/3 TOs

@ Detroit, 7-25 to get 19 points, 4 assists/2 TOs


OMG HE SHOT HIS TEAM OUT OF SO MANY GAMES OMG SCRUB OMG OMG OMG

Nice try but, here are some nice easy facts dude...both guys could shot jack like no other

Team Records when Kobe/MJ took 30+ shots

Jordan: 72-57(.558)
Kobe: 46-61(.368)

[Calabis]

No he wouldn't....and Jordan being guarded by the DPOY that year....Gary Peyton...didn't help him on offense.

Don't forget Nate McMillian and Hersey Hawkins also in that series...better individual defenders than Allen/Allen......also Jordan was 33...lol

[Calabis]

He stuck to the game plan. You're insane if you think Phil doesn't want him taking those shots. I guess the game plan must have been for Kobe to shot jack huh? Whatever the game plan was, it worked, we won. Get over it.

I would agree that he didn't dominate the series. But he played very well. Did MJ score efficiently against the '96 Sonics? Nope. Shot jacking I guess.. he played so poorly. If the GOAT couldn't do it all, then I guess Kobe should be able to.

And continuously using Kobe's fg % as the reason why he played poorly = saying that Kobe shooting poorly equals he played poorly. You're biggest harp on Kobe has been his shooting % and all the other statistics you have. Nice, you must be an expert with all those stats.


WTF is wrong with you...even he said "I sucked" after that game....what were you watching...here do some homework...go watch the Suns series...yes some bad shots, but majority of his play he ran in the realm of the offense, hence several games with 9 or more assist and a 50%+ FG percentage...wake up dude

[G.O.A.T.]

Especially when 4 of your 5 chips, you played second fiddle.


thanks for playing, please come again

[Calabis]

Good god, I can do the same thing you're doing. FG % does not account fo rall those excuses you just made.

It's not meangingless when Andrew Bynum is playing on one leg. It's not meaningless when Kobe's teammates dissapear on the road. It's not meaningless when Ron can't make a shot to save his life until game 7. Blah blah blah...

Last time I checked it was Fisher hitting 5 key shots in Game 3 on the road, while Kobe was brick laying

[Calabis]

thanks for playing, please come again

LMAO Gasol was MVP for this past series....higher WIN/SHare, higher efficiency rating...something no teammate of MJ's did

[G.O.A.T.]

LMAO Gasol was MVP for this past series....higher WIN/SHare, higher efficiency rating...something no teammate of MJ's did

Alright so I guess Cornbread got Bird his championship in 81. Great logic!

[Calabis]

Alright so I guess Cornbread got Bird his championship in 81. Great logic!

He(Maxwell) was the best player on the floor several games(for Celtics) and had some dominate games, in case you don't remember he was their leading scorer in that series and if I'm correct, Bird struggled Games 3,4 and 5, not to mention that Robert Reid was lighting Bird up....hence MVP award

Kobe got this one, but damn tons of people questioned it...if they had voters like they did back then, Gasol would have a MVP award

[EarlTheGoat]

LMAO Gasol was MVP for this past series....higher WIN/SHare, higher efficiency rating...something no teammate of MJ's did

This is superb stupid post (and im from Spain). Even if what you are saying is true (which I think it aint), one series (even if its the Finals) is not the whole season (82 regular season games + 23 playoff games). Kobe has been clearly the first option throughout the whole season.

Now explain me, how in your logic is having one "worse" playoff series, being the second fiddle of something.

Kobe had better playoff series than Shaq in 2001 and 2002, this implies Shaq was his second fiddle? No.

[G.O.A.T.]

He(Maxwell) was the best player on the floor several games(for Celtics) and had some dominate games, in case you don't remember he was their leading scorer in that series and if I'm correct, Bird struggled Games 3,4 and 5, not to mention that Robert Reid was lighting Bird up....hence MVP award

Kobe got this one, but damn tons of people questioned it...if they had voters like they did back then, Gasol would have a MVP award

The Finals MVP award can be called into question, but I am referring to your blanket statement of Gasol and not Kobe being the main guy throughout the 09-10 season.

[Calabis]

The Finals MVP award can be called into question, but I am referring to your blanket statement of Gasol and not Kobe being the main guy throughout the 09-10 season.

That's not what I meant, your right should have clarified, just meant in finals performances.

[tpols]

LMAO Gasol was MVP for this past series....higher WIN/SHare, higher efficiency rating...something no teammate of MJ's did
this guy must be retarded... for every bullshit stat you pull up I can pull another one out to counter it... Kobe scored the bulk of the points in EVERY SINGLE PLAYOFF SERIES! He outscored the second best player 200 to 130. Dude put up a 29/4/8 statline, won, and you still hate? Please leave with the hate you f!cking moron.

[Calabis]

This is superb stupid post (and im from Spain). Even if what you are saying is true (which I think it aint), one series (even if its the Finals) is not the whole season (82 regular season games + 23 playoff games). Kobe has been clearly the first option throughout the whole season.

Now explain me, how in your logic is having one "worse" playoff series, being the second fiddle of something.

Kobe had better playoff series than Shaq in 2001 and 2002, this implies Shaq was his second fiddle? No.

LMAO!!! WHAT!!!!!!!!!You do know that its a Finals MVP award right.....which means in those last 7 games your performance gets you that award...its not the NBA Playoff MVP...its the NBA FINALS MVP.....Kobe outperformed SHAQ!!!!! Should I even answer this???

Shaq 2001: 33.0ppg 15.8rebs 4.8ast 57.3FG%
Kobe 2001: 24.6 ppg, 7.8 rpg, 5.8 apg 41%


Shaq: 2002: 36.3ppg 12.3rebs 3.8ast 59.5FG%
Kobe 2002: 26.8 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 5.3 apg 51%FG%

Shaq also had almost 3 blks per game, also who said Gasol during the season, or the entire playoff run??? The FINALS dude this past series....last 7 games, which equates to Finals MVP

[Calabis]

this guy must be retarded... for every bullshit stat you pull up I can pull another one out to counter it... Kobe scored the bulk of the points in EVERY SINGLE PLAYOFF SERIES! He outscored the second best player 200 to 130. Dude put up a 29/4/8 statline, won, and you still hate? Please leave with the hate you f!cking moron.

LMAO calling someone retarded, followed by a moron...then posting a weak ass stat, that has nothing to do with the NBA Finals.....Go do some homework and look up win share and eff rating...its a combination of each players stats, which provides their impact on their teams success(ie win)...Gasol's was higher than Kobe's in the finals and in Game 7 he is the one who carried the team down the stretch.....hence FINALS MVP, not PLAYOFF MVP dumbass

[tpols]

LMAO calling someone retarded, followed by a moron...then posting a weak ass stat, that has nothing to do with the NBA Finals.....Go do some homework and look up win share and eff rating...its a combination of each players stats, which provides their impact on their teams success(ie win)...Gasol's was higher than Kobe's in the finals and in Game 7 he is the one who carried the team down the stretch.....hence FINALS MVP, not PLAYOFF MVP dumbass
Did you watch any of the games? Gasol absolutely disappeared on the road. Do your stats take into account the fact that kobe constantly drew double and triple teams making life way easier for Pau? No it doesn't you f!cking moron. Try watching the games yourself and seeing who the leader and most important player on the team was. The lakers were getting crushed everytime kobe hit the bench as farmar and brown were doing the handling instead of kobe. Can't believe how stupid you are bro.:roll:

[LA_Showtime]

there are no kobe haters. only haters of the kobe homers.

Sorry, but that's complete utter bullshit. Some of these "basketball fans" spend 99% of their time on ISH downplaying Kobe's achievements. If you don't think there are Kobe haters, then you're delusional.

[KenneBell]

Sorry, but that's complete utter bullshit. Some of these "basketball fans" spend 99% of their time on ISH downplaying Kobe's achievements. If you don't think there are Kobe haters, then you're delusional.
No use in explaining that to him, he's one of them.

[Doranku]

No use in explaining that to him, he's one of them.

ginobli isn't nearly as bad as some of these other clowns like Calabis. I don't agree with a lot of what he spews (Kobe being 12th all time, etc) but at least he somewhat backs up his arguments and can (at times) be reasonable.

[Doranku]

LMAO calling someone retarded, followed by a moron...then posting a weak ass stat, that has nothing to do with the NBA Finals.....Go do some homework and look up win share and eff rating...its a combination of each players stats, which provides their impact on their teams success(ie win)...Gasol's was higher than Kobe's in the finals and in Game 7 he is the one who carried the team down the stretch.....hence FINALS MVP, not PLAYOFF MVP dumbass

:oldlol: @ win shares. Kobe had more win shares that Shaq during the Playoffs in one of the three-peat years. Does that mean he was the best player during that run?

[OldSchoolBBall]

Meanwhile, kobe was being guarded by one of the best perimeter defenders in the league in tony allen

I don't disagree with most of your post, but when did Tony Allen become some sort of defensive force? This is something I've heard a couple of times from Kobe fans ever since the Finals, but no one has ever spoken of TA as anything other than solid defensively. Reminds me of how Kobe fans love to act like every team/defender Kobe plays poorly against is an all-time defensive team/player, even when other players torch these same teams/players.

[Doctor Rivers]

what happened to ginobili? why is this calabis guy stealing his thunder?

[zizozain]

Jordan in '98:

@ Boston, 7-23 with 4 assists/3 TOs

@ Cleveland, 7-17 with 1 assist/3 TOs

vs Washington, 10-28 with 3 assists/5 TOs

@ Orlando, 6-17 with 5 assists/3 TOs

@ Minnesota, 11-28 with 1 assist/3 TOs

@ Miami, 12-27 to get 26 points, 1 assist/1 TO

@ Philly, 9-23 to get 20 points, 4 assists/4 TOs

@ Utah, 17-37 (!) with 3 assists/1 TO

vs Portland, 9-26 with 3 assists/3 TOs

@ Detroit, 7-25 to get 19 points, 4 assists/2 TOs


OMG HE SHOT HIS TEAM OUT OF SO MANY GAMES OMG SCRUB OMG OMG OMG


Qustion:
when did MJ go 2 for 17 ?
anyone?

[tpols]

I don't disagree with most of your post, but when did Tony Allen become some sort of defensive force? This is something I've heard a couple of times from Kobe fans ever since the Finals, but no one has ever spoken of TA as anything other than solid defensively. Reminds me of how Kobe fans love to act like every team/defender Kobe plays poorly against is an all-time defensive team/player, even when other players torch these same teams/players.
I've been watching tony allen for years and the only reason he's still on the team is his defense. He can't even shoot and he a SG. He has no midrange game. All he can do is make tough layups and that's about it... Tony allen is a very quick defender and his strength is underrated. He used to annoy me when I'd watch net-celtics games because he was a pest on D.

He was getting right on kobe chest to chest whenever kobe got the ball, and kobe rarely blew by him. He also was smart and didn't fall for kobe's head fakes.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

I don't disagree with most of your post, but when did Tony Allen become some sort of defensive force? This is something I've heard a couple of times from Kobe fans ever since the Finals, but no one has ever spoken of TA as anything other than solid defensively.

raison d'etre

"defensive force" vs. "solid defensively" ???
IDK, but the only reason he is in the NBA is for his defense.

[OldSchoolBBall]

He was getting right on kobe chest to chest whenever kobe got the ball, and kobe rarely blew by him. He also was smart and didn't fall for kobe's head fakes.

I agree with you, but Kobe wasn't blowing by Ray Allen either when Ray was pressed up on him. Ray wasn't biting on fakes either. Neither of these guys are great defenders; they're both solid to good, with TA having the edge due to youth/athleticism.

I just hate how people act like anyone who does a good job on Kobe is automatically some all-world defender. Kobe fans did this with Tay Prince back in '04 and '05, talking about how he'd shut down Jordan since he gave Kobe fits. When Wade and Iverson destroyed him the following season, that talk died down real quick. People in general don't understand that certain types of defenders give Kobe trouble due to his particular style of play and abilities, and it wouldn't necessarily be the case for anyone else.

[RazorBaLade]

I agree with you, but Kobe wasn't blowing by Ray Allen either when Ray was pressed up on him. Ray wasn't biting on fakes either. Neither of these guys are great defenders; they're both solid to good, with TA having the edge due to youth/athleticism.

I just hate how people act like anyone who does a good job on Kobe is automatically some all-world defender. Kobe fans did this with Tay Prince back in '04 and '05, talking about how he'd shut down Jordan since he gave Kobe fits. When Wade and Iverson destroyed him the following season, that talk died down real quick. People in general don't understand that certain types of defenders give Kobe trouble due to his particular style of play and abilities, and it wouldn't necessarily be the case for anyone else.

because iverson and wade clearly have physical abilities that are similar to kobe and jordan right? Kobe and jordan comparison speed/height etc is okay, with wade or iverson that would be a joke. Don't be stupid

[OldSchoolBBall]

because iverson and wade clearly have physical abilities that are similar to kobe and jordan right? Kobe and jordan comparison speed/height etc is okay, with wade or iverson that would be a joke. Don't be stupid

Uhh, your first mistake is thinking that Kobe and Jordan's physical abilities and style of play are in any way similar. '87-'90 Jordan was just as quick if not quicker than Wade, and even '91-'93 MJ was significantly quicker and more explosive than even 2004/2005 Kobe. He would shred a guy like Prince.

Yes, Wade is very similar physically/stylistically to mid-late 80's and 1990/'91 Jordan.

[che guevara]

because iverson and wade clearly have physical abilities that are similar to kobe and jordan right? Kobe and jordan comparison speed/height etc is okay, with wade or iverson that would be a joke. Don't be stupid
Wait, you think Jordan is closer to Kobe than Wade in terms of athleticism? :oldlol: Jordan before 1993 was at least as quick/fast as Wade, and almost certainly more so.

[ginobli2311]

Uhh, your first mistake is thinking that Kobe and Jordan's physical abilities and style of play are in any way similar. '87-'90 Jordan was just as quick if not quicker than Wade, and even '91-'93 MJ was significantly quicker and more explosive than even 2004/2005 Kobe. He would shred a guy like Prince.

Yes, Wade is very similar physically/stylistically to mid-late 80's and 1990/'91 Jordan.

this.

poppovich has said that wade is the closest player to jordan as well. why? because he's physically so dominant and you can't prevent him from getting to the rim.

kobe has never been the dominant force that wade has been let alone jordan. the comparison is beyond absurd.

[game385]

I don't hate them, but it is annoying when someone is foolish enough to dare say Kobe is equal or greater. That's a joke, pure and simple, but the comparisons in general are understandable IMO given Kobe's game and accomplishments.

To most of us no one will ever surpass Jordan in our eyes, but as long as there's an NBA with talented perimeter players people will forever compare them to the greatest we have ever seen. I believe David Stern said it best, "Michael Jordan is simply the standard by which basketball excellence is measured."

[Simple Jack]

Can someone post a compilation of all Kobe's rebounds in game 7? I'd like to see how important each of them were.

[zizozain]

"Michael Jordan is simply the standard by which basketball excellence is measured."

absolutely correct to MJ kiddies
but according to logic, order, history andaccording to everyone:
that is very ignorant and stupid

[OldSchoolBBall]

Wanted to post this in the other thread that just got deleted ("Phil Jackson says Kobe > MJ"), in response to the thread started ("Blader", I think his name was), who asserted that, when looking at 2-point FG% between Kobe and Jordan, the comparison is very close (he posted 48% 2FG% for Kobe vs 51% for MJ). This data took me quite a while to calculate just now, so I didn't want it to go to waste:


This is a stupid argument since Jordan was doing so on higher ppg volume (by about 5-6 ppg, which is not trivial with players at this level; data below). That means he was generating significantly more good 2-point opportunities.

Lastly, your numbers for Jordan aren't accurate, or at least not complete. Here are accurate numbers:

MJ's 2FG%, age 21-30: 53.2% (+4.2% above league average)
KB's 2FG%, age 21-30: 48.3% (+1.1% above league average)

MJ's 2FG PPG, age 21-30: 32.1 ppg (+5.2 ppg above Kobe)
KB's 2FG PPG, age 21-30: 26.9 ppg


As you can see, there's a significant difference there both in terms of ppg volume as well as raw FG% and also how well each fared as compared to their peers on 2-point FG's.

[Fatal9]

^ if you have the numbers still can you do prime vs. prime. just interested to see it. Something like '06-'09 for Kobe and '90-'93 for MJ.

[OldSchoolBBall]

^ if you have the numbers still can you do prime vs. prime. just interested to see it. Something like '06-'09 for Kobe and '90-'93 for MJ.

Actually, I'll do the calcs again, since I still have the league averages in Notepad:

Kobe '06-'09 2FG%: 49.1% (league average: 48.3%; Kobe's 2FG% above league average: .8% ; Kobe's peak 2FG% above league average: 1.2% in 2007)

Jordan's '90-'93 2FG%: 53.7% (league average: 48.8%; Jordan's 2FG% above league average: 4.9% ; Jordan's peak 2FG% above league average: 6.3% in 1991)


The above data also supports my contention that 1990 or 1991 MJ was his absolute peak in terms of his dominance as a player (~55% FG on 2's each year @ 32.6 ppg), especially when you combine it with his defensive energy and ability during those seasons/postseasons.

[Fatal9]

The league average margins are actually really surprising.

Lebron's is maybe the most absurd. I just looked at this year and he shot 56.0% on twos, which was 7.5% above the league average (48.5%). Wow.

[che guevara]

Actually, I'll do the calcs again, since I still have the league averages in Notepad:

Kobe '06-'09 2FG%: 49.1% (league average: 48.3%; Kobe's 2FG% above league average: .8% ; Kobe's peak 2FG% above league average: 1.2% in 2007)

Jordan's '90-'93 2FG%: 53.7% (league average: 48.8%; Jordan's 2FG% above league average: 4.9% ; Jordan's peak 2FG% above league average: 6.3% in 1991)


The above data also supports my contention that 1990 or 1991 MJ was his absolute peak in terms of his dominance as a player (~55% FG on 2's each year @ 32.6 ppg), especially when you combine it with his defensive energy and ability during those seasons/postseasons.
His 2p FG% would be even higher from '88 to '91, I would guess about 55%. His percentages dipped a little bit in '92 and '93 for whatever reason (tendinitis maybe?)


The league average margins are actually really surprising.

Lebron's is maybe the most absurd. I just looked at this year and he shot 56.0% on twos, which was 7.5% above the league average (48.5%). Wow.
Which makes you wonder why the hell he's taking 5 threes per game even though he only makes 33% of them. It's a little bit like Barkley, he just can't resist taking them.

[ginobli2311]

The league average margins are actually really surprising.

Lebron's is maybe the most absurd. I just looked at this year and he shot 56.0% on twos, which was 7.5% above the league average (48.5%). Wow.

wow.

not to bring lebron into this too much. but if he gets on the right teams and wins 3 or more titles and 4 or more regular season mvps he is going to have a legit case as the 2nd best player of all time.

right now the playoff losses are somewhat clouding what lebron actually is. if he wins titles......look out.

[OldSchoolBBall]

The league average margins are actually really surprising.

Lebron's is maybe the most absurd. I just looked at this year and he shot 56.0% on twos, which was 7.5% above the league average (48.5%). Wow.

Pretty crazy. He is doing it at 28.0 ppg as compared to MJ's 31.9 ppg in '90/'91 averaged out. Also, Lebron probably gets even a greater percentage of his twos on dunks/layups than MJ did (leading to a higher conversion %), because by 1990-'93, the midrange game was a staple of MJ's game whereas Lebron still doesn't take many midrange shots from what I've seen. Regardless, very impressive.

Jordan's hit 6.3% 2FG% above league average twice (1989 and 1991) and 5.6+% above league average a couple of other times.


His 2p FG% would be even higher from '88 to '91, I would guess about 55%.

Yeah, he shot 55.3% in 1989 on 2's and 54.6% on 2's in 1988. Here's year by year in terms of 2FG% for Jordan:

1988: 54.6% (+5.6% above league average)
1989: 55.3% (+6.3%)
1990: 54.8% (+6.0%)
1991: 55.1% (+6.3%)
1992: 53.3% (+4.7%)
1993: 51.4% (+2.5%)

[alexandreben]

Pretty crazy. He is doing it at 28.0 ppg as compared to MJ's 31.9 ppg in '90/'91 averaged out. Also, Lebron probably gets even a greater percentage of his twos on dunks/layups than MJ did (leading to a higher conversion %), because by 1990-'93, the midrange game was a staple of MJ's game whereas Lebron still doesn't take many midrange shots from what I've seen. Regardless, very impressive.

Jordan's hit 6.3% 2FG% above league average twice (1989 and 1991) and 5.6+% above league average a couple of other times.



Yeah, he shot 55.3% in 1989 on 2's and 54.6% on 2's in 1988. Here's year by year in terms of 2FG% for Jordan:

1988: 54.6% (+5.6% above league average)
1989: 55.3% (+6.3%)
1990: 54.8% (+6.0%)
1991: 55.1% (+6.3%)
1992: 53.3% (+4.7%)
1993: 51.4% (+2.5%)
I watched Jordan's play back in the old days, I don't remember that he had that high 2P%... this looks like his FG% which's combined with dunking and layups, he was not that a great shooter as 55% back in the late 80's and early 90's, are you talking about his 2P% or FG%?

[OldSchoolBBall]

I watched Jordan's play back in the old days, I don't remember that he had that high 2P%... this looks like his FG% which's combined with dunking and layups, he was not that a great shooter as 55% back in the late 80's and early 90's, are you talking about his 2P% or FG%?

The conversation has been about 2-point FG%, which is everything inside the 3-point line.

But by the late 80's and early 90's, he was, at the very least, as good a shooter from 21 feet and in (and from 23 feet and in by '92) as any superstar in the league today except for Kobe. I personally think he was better from 22feet and in than even Kobe (I just don't want to make an argument), but like I said, at the very least only Kobe among today's stars is a more consistent midrange shooter. Jordan was DEADLY from midrange by 1989 (age 26).

[ShaqAttack3234]

The league average margins are actually really surprising.

Lebron's is maybe the most absurd. I just looked at this year and he shot 56.0% on twos, which was 7.5% above the league average (48.5%). Wow.

His eFG% is actually 54.5% which as che guevara said really makes you wonder why he takes so many 3s. When your 2P% is that much higher than your eFG% it really makes no sense not to cut down on 3s.

And one thing eFG% and TS% don't factor in is that a guy who has a higher FG% will be more consistent night in and night out and more likely to give you an efficient 30 point night than a guy with a lower FG%, but equal TS% or eFG% plus even if their TS%/eFG% is the same, the extra misses do have a negative impact.

2006- 51.8 2P%, 51.5 eFG%
2007- 51.3 2P%, 50.7 eFG%
2008- 53.1 2P%, 51.8 eFG%
2009- 53.5 2P%, 53 eFG%

Strangely. it seems like Lebron always makes ridiculous fadeaway 3s against the shot clock or 30 footers yet he often bricks wide open jumpers and I rarely see him hit catch and shoot jumpers.

He's improved as a shooter, but he'll never be a great shooter and I doubt he'll be a consistent one. What he can do consistently as well as anyone in NBA is history is attack the basket and finish, even with contact.