Poll: All time: Gary Payton, Jason Kidd or Steve Nash

[Yung D-Will]

http://www.xtec.cat/centres/a8061117/alumnes/wait/esports/nba/Imatges%20de%20la%20nba/Jason%20Kidd.jpg
http://nflbook.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/2008638693.jpg
http://i45.tinypic.com/4pzf9s.jpg



Who do you rank higher?

[Court Vision]

1. Jason Kidd
2. Gary Payton
3. Steve Nash

[FCN]

GP all day. Most complete all-around player of the 3.

Nash has great offense and passing but no D or rebounding.

Kidd had great D, passing, and rebounding, but not the best Jumper.

Payton had all of the above, and had no real weakness.

[miles berg]

1. Jason Kidd
2. Gary Payton
3. Steve Nash

[Dresta]

Payton.

[creepingdeath]

1. Jason Kidd
2. Gary Payton
3. Steve Nash

+1

Although that No. 1 spot is a toss-up between Kidd and Payton. Kidd gets the nod because he basically achieved the same team success as Payton without having someone like Kemp as a congenial significant other.

[BlueandGold]

Payton and Kidd are some of the best two-way guards in the history of the NBA.

nash one of the best offensive PGs ever but too small/weak to play defense.

[alwaysunny]

The Glove

damn OP how many threads do you average a day?

[Court Vision]

+1

Although that No. 1 spot is a toss-up between Kidd and Payton. Kidd gets the nod because he basically achieved the same team success as Payton without having someone like Malone as a congenial significant other.
Malone? Do you mean Kemp or are you referring to GPs season in LA.

[Yung D-Will]

The Glove

damn OP how many threads do you average a day?

Well all you need to know is I've never made a thread on here with Kobe or Lebron in the title :oldlol:

[alwaysunny]

+1

Although that No. 1 spot is a toss-up between Kidd and Payton. Kidd gets the nod because he basically achieved the same team success as Payton without having someone like Kemp as a congenial significant other.

Kemp wasn't a superstar

[creepingdeath]

Malone? Do you mean Kemp or are you referring to GPs season in LA.


Meh, of course I meant Kemp, my bad. Must have been because of the similar symbiosis that existed between Malone and Stockton, too.

[Revelation]

All were exceptional passers.

Gary Payton's defense, Jason Kidd's Rebounding and court sense, and Steve Nash's shooting ability = Greatest PG ever.

[creepingdeath]

Kemp wasn't a superstar
Well, he was more of a superstar than anybody on Kidd's 02/03 Nets.

[Yung D-Will]

All were exceptional passers.

Gary Payton's defense, Jason Kidd's Rebounding and court sense, and Steve Nash's shooting ability = Greatest PG ever.

Pg's don't win championships-CLAIM

[Yung D-Will]

Surprised that there's no love for Nash so far

[Court Vision]

Surprised that there's no love for Nash so far
He plays no D and has never been to the finals. I'm surprised you even put him in the discussion

[Yung D-Will]

He plays no D and has never been to the finals. I'm surprised you even put him in the discussion

Well Alot of people on this forum consider Nash better then Kidd. Because they go all Nash 2 mvps

[Skyscraper]

Pg's don't win championships-CLAIM


PGs who hog up the salary cap with their max contracts don't win titles.

If there was not a salary cap, you can be sure a dominant 10APG+ PG (along with the shooters and talented big men) will win more than a few titles.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

He plays no D and has never been to the finals. I'm surprised you even put him in the discussion
I'm just so glad you Knicks morons picked up Amare for 100 million. I can just sit back and watch Amare go from All-Star to All-scrub.

[Yung D-Will]

http://i45.tinypic.com/23lkwts.jpg

Lol it's funny how different you guys are from Realgm. Those are the first 2 votes :lol

[Snoop_Cat]

Gary Payton = Greatest 2 way Point Guard of all time by a fair margin. I'd take prime Payton over prime Nash, Kidd, Stockton, Thomas, Hardaway anyday.

[Court Vision]

I'm just so glad you Knicks morons picked up Amare for 100 million. I can just sit back and watch Amare go from All-Star to All-scrub.
And your post is relavent to this thread how...?

[EarlTheGoat]

I think Gary Payton was the best all-around player out of those 3. Its a very close one, but i would take "The Glove".

[Calabis]

Payton and Kidd are close...although Nash is good, but I think he is a product of the 2004 rule changes, I'll take Payton out of these three

[TrueDiesel3]

1. Payton
2. Nash
3. Kidd

Kidd has never been anything special at scoring the basketball, if anything that may have been his biggest weakness. He was a good finisher, but he was incredibly poor at picking his shot selection, hence why his career FG% is 40%.

Nash consistently gets 90/50/40 years...He has done it 4 times in his entire career. I would love just to see Kidd even shoot 45% or higher for one year. It's hard to ignore how great Nash is on the offensive end, he may be the best offensive PG the NBA has ever seen....maybe. I mean you can just take a look at how former Suns players have their FG% and 3 pt shooting % go down after they stop playing with Nash.

Nash can take over games too, Can Kidd? I don't think so, sure he can get triple-doubles, but he can't close out or help your team comeback from behind like Nash can.

Payton wasn't better than Nash offensively either, but he wasn't a slouch. He had a very great post up game and he knew how to shoot.

[EarlTheGoat]

1. Payton
2. Nash
3. Kidd

Kidd has never been anything special at scoring the basketball, if anything that may have been his biggest weakness. He was a good finisher, but he was incredibly poor at picking his shot selection, hence why his career FG% is 40%.

Nash consistently gets 90/50/40 years...He has done it 4 times in his entire career. I would love just to see Kidd even shoot 45% or higher for one year. It's hard to ignore how great Nash is on the offensive end, he may be the best offensive PG the NBA has ever seen....maybe. I mean you can just take a look at how former Suns players have their FG% and 3 pt shooting % go down after they stop playing with Nash.



Nash can take over games too, Can Kidd? I don't think so, sure he can get triple-doubles, but he can't close out or help your team comeback from behind like Nash can.

Payton wasn't better than Nash offensively either, but he wasn't a slouch. He had a very great post up game and he knew how to shoot.

I think you are underrating prime Kidd`s capacity to score, (not as good as Nash) but not as far-fetched as it seems at first. Kidd had season averages of 19.6 and 20.1 ppg, not bad for a PG.

The thing Kidd has over Nash is clearly his defense, Nash`s defense is veeery poor, irritating at times, while Kidd was a very fundamental type of defender, not based on athleticism but on an incredible intelligence and great fundamentals.

While Nash scoring compared to Kidd`s scoring is not that far-fetched, Kidd`s defense compared to Nash`s defense is not a close one. To say it in other words, Nash`s weakness compared to Kidd`s weakness is bigger than Kidd`s weakness compared to Nash`s one.

[NUPE_1911]

Nash does not even belong in this discussion. I don't care about the MVP's that the media funneled to Nash then refused to give to CP3 despite CP3 having superior stats.

[TrueDiesel3]

I think you are underrating prime Kidd`s capacity to score, (not as good as Nash) but not as far-fetched as it seems at first. Kidd had season averages of 19.6 and 20.1 ppg, not bad for a PG.

The thing Kidd has over Nash is clearly his defense, Nash`s defense is veeery poor, irritating at times, while Kidd was a very fundamental type of defender, not based on athleticism but on an incredible intelligence and great fundamentals.

While Nash scoring compared to Kidd`s scoring is not that far-fetched, Kidd`s defense compared to Nash`s defense is not a close one. To say it in other words, Nash`s weakness compared to Kidd`s weakness is bigger than Kidd`s weakness compared to Nash`s one.
Uh ok, why the hell should I take your opinion seriously, didn't you get banned here a week ago? :oldlol: and Nice lie idiot, Kidd never averaged 20.1 PPG or 19.6 ppg, his highest average ppg in a season was 18.7. :oldlol: Credibility destroyed.

[EarlTheGoat]

Nash does not even belong in this discussion. I don't care about the MVP's that the media funneled to Nash then refused to give to CP3 despite CP3 having superior stats.

I think you are confusing players. CP3 MVP season worth was in 07/08. Nash got them in 04/05 and 05/06.

[EarlTheGoat]

Uh ok, why the hell should I take your opinion seriously, didn't you get banned here a week ago? :oldlol: and Nice lie idiot, Kidd never averaged 20.1 PPG or 19.6 ppg, his highest average ppg in a season was 18.7. :oldlol: Credibility destroyed.

Wow, didnt expect this reply. Nazi type, if you arent willing to discuss then I put you on ignore and case closed.

Kidd averaged 20.1 ppg in 02/03 playoffs, 19.6 in 01/02 playoffs. Both of them runs which ended in the NBA Finals.

Now go talk me with some respect or get the f*ck out of my way.

[TrueDiesel3]

Wow, didnt expect this reply. Nazi type, if you arent willing to discuss then I put you on ignore and case closed.

Kidd averaged 20.1 ppg in 02/03 playoffs, 19.6 in 01/02 playoffs. Both of them runs which ended in the NBA Finals.

Now go talk me with some respect or get the f*ck out of my way.
Yeah, that's the same as saying he had SEASON averages of it (which you said by the way). If you want to bring up playoff series, let's talk about '05 series vs the Dallas Mavericks where Steve Nash exploded.

Steve Nash averaged 30.3 ppg in that series. Your stupid series stats mean nothing, Jason Kidd has never even had a 20/10 season in his life. Go get banned again and maybe you'll earn more credibility then there, because you aren't getting any here.

[EarlTheGoat]

Yeah, that's the same as saying he had SEASON averages of it (which you said by the way). If you want to bring up playoff series, let's talk about '05 series vs the Dallas Mavericks where Steve Nash exploded.

Steve Nash averaged 30.3 ppg in that series. Your stupid series stats mean nothing, Jason Kidd has never even had a 20/10 season in his life. Go get banned again and maybe you'll earn more credibility then there, because you aren't getting any here.


Welcome to my ignore list kid. I aint got time for this shit.

[TrueDiesel3]

Welcome to my ignore list kid. I aint got time for this shit.
Good, I knew you would have no argument you ******..:oldlol:

[NUPE_1911]

I think you are confusing players. CP3 MVP season worth was in 07/08. Nash got them in 04/05 and 05/06.


I am not confused. Nash got back to back MVP's. The following year or maybe two years later Paul had a ridiculous year with stats superior to Nash almost across the board on a very good team record but no MVP for CP3. Laughable.

[Yung D-Will]

I am not confused. Nash got back to back MVP's. The following year or maybe two years later Paul had a ridiculous year with stats superior to Nash almost across the board on a very good team record but no MVP for CP3. Laughable.

Because his main competition wasn't Nash?

[tpols]

Good, I knew you would have no argument you ******..:oldlol:
you have no idea bro...

there are two EQUAL parts to basketball: offense and defense

Offensively- Kidd and Nash's court sense and passing are equal; scoring wise nash is a better shooter. I'll give you that but jason kidd was a MUCH better finisher and, like gary payton, had a good back to the basket game, two things nash did not have.

Defensively- there's no comparison as Kidd and payton are so far ahead of nash in this department.

If you average both, kidd and payton are WAY higher than nash on anyone's top 50 list or top PG list.

[TrueDiesel3]

you have no idea bro...

there are two EQUAL parts to basketball: offense and defense

Offensively- Kidd and Nash's court sense and passing are equal; scoring wise nash is a better shooter. I'll give you that but jason kidd was a MUCH better finisher and, like gary payton, had a good back to the basket game, two things nash did not have.

Defensively- there's no comparison as Kidd and payton are so far ahead of nash in this department.

If you average both, kidd and payton are WAY higher than nash on anyone's top 50 list or top PG list.
If he was a better finisher, he wouldn't be shooting at 40% for his career and Nash wouldn't constantly be shooting 90/50/40.....would he? Kidd was slightly better on the break, but Nash was way better in the half-court offense. I can tell you are a Kidd fan with your avatar.

[tpols]

If he was a better finisher, he wouldn't be shooting at 40% for his career and Nash wouldn't constantly be shooting 90/50/40.....would he? Kidd was slightly better on the break, but Nash was way better in the half-court offense. I can tell you are a Kidd fan with your avatar.
I'm a nets fan but the discrepancy in shooting percentage is due to the fact that steve nash is a world class shooter. If you think steve nash is better finishing around the rim than kidd then you're a dumbass.

The perfect prototypical point guard would be a great passer, would have great vision, would play hard nosed, great on ball defense, and would make his teammates drastically better. Kidd is easily more well rounded than nash and if your argument is going to be bringing up his ppg than your not even worth my time...

[Lakers13]

I'll take Prime Gary Payton all day

[EarlTheGoat]

TrueDiesel getting destroyed by everybody.

:oldlol:

[PowerGlove]

Glove/Kidd


Nash

[TrueDiesel3]

TrueDiesel getting destroyed by everybody.

:oldlol:
Well let's see, one guy listed his opinion (tpols) and one guy just got destroyed by me.....(You, EarlTheGoat, the troll who got banned a week ago for being an idiot I'm guessing) But Yeah I'm getting destroyed by everybody. :oldlol:

[Knick Killer]

Well let's see, one guy listed his opinion (tpols) and one guy just got destroyed by me.....(You, EarlTheGoat, the troll who got banned a week ago for being an idiot I'm guessing) But Yeah I'm getting destroyed by everybody. :oldlol:
shut the **** up you ******

[AK47DR91]

#1 Payton...he was the better defender and more ferocious in ability to score.
#2 Kidd...probably has better overall ability as a player but he can't shoot.
#3 Nash...probably the better pure PG but he was/is very passive.

[ginobli2311]

#1 Payton...he was the better defender and more ferocious in ability to score.
#2 Kidd...probably has better overall ability as a player but he can't shoot.
#3 Nash...probably the better pure PG but he was/is very passive.

somebody above posted it best:

kidd/payton are debatable

nash is way behind both of them.

[EarlTheGoat]

TrueDiesel keeps getting destroyed by everybody.

:oldlol:

[TrueDiesel3]

TrueDiesel keeps getting destroyed by everybody.

:oldlol:
Yeah, if they have their own opinion about thinking Kidd and Payton being better than Nash that means I'm being destroyed. :oldlol: If I was being destroyed, someone would tell me I gave the people false stats, like I don't know you.....YOU DID. :oldlol: and the way I destroyed you. :roll:

[sannguyen19]

im pretty sure everybody would have picked Nash if he played like this early in his career...people dont really give him enough credit because hes putting up crazy numbers after his prime years.

[FCN]

im pretty sure everybody would have picked Nash if he played like this early in his career...people dont really give him enough credit because hes putting up crazy numbers after his prime years.

Everyone would pick Nash if he were 2-3 inches taller and could play defense.

[Scoooter]

Can't really go wrong with any of them. Nash is the best offensively, Payton the best defensively. Kidd somewhere in the middle, with more size than both. Tough toss up.

[EarlTheGoat]

Yeah, if they have their own opinion about thinking Kidd and Payton being better than Nash that means I'm being destroyed. :oldlol: If I was being destroyed, someone would tell me I gave the people false stats, like I don't know you.....YOU DID. :oldlol: and the way I destroyed you. :roll:

1...2...3, three smileys. You really are nervous and insecure, arent you?


:pimp:

[Gifted Mind]

I think I'd take Payton above Kidd and Nash.

Kidd and Nash are debatable, but I'd give the small edge due to his unselfish play.

[Go Getter]

1. Jason Kidd
2. Gary Payton
3. Steve Nash
Yes.

[ZHAKIDD532]

It's tough. Nash has 2 MVPs, but the other 2 are some of the best defensive PG's of all time when they were in their prime. I think Kidd is the best, but I'm biased.

Kidd
Payton
Nash

[magic chiongson]

1. Jason Kidd
2. Gary Payton
3. Steve Nash

same here, with only a slight edge for kidd over payton due to the fact that he led a nets team with no other superstar to the finals twice, as well as the team's improvement after he joined

[kentatm]

it would be a tough choice between Kidd and Payton at number one. I'd lean towards Kidd but prime Payton was insanely good.

Both are clearly a step above Nash.

[momo]

I will take GP.

I love Kidd and Nash both but I can only think of 5 guards that forced an opposing offense to plan for him and his D. And GP is one of them.

Even with his bugged out knuckle ball shot, incessant talking and not winning a ring in his prime, I think he had a great mentality for a PG... at least as far as winning games. I do think he was an erratic hothead at times and probably could have been a better leader. But I also think he would have chopped off one of his own pinkie fingers for a ring.

[LAClipsFan33]

1. GP

2. Kidd

3. Nash

[momo]

I will take GP.

I love Kidd and Nash both but I can only think of 5 guards that forced an opposing offense to plan for him and his D. And GP is one of them.

Even with his bugged out knuckle ball shot, incessant talking and not winning a ring in his prime, I think he had a great mentality for a PG... at least as far as winning games. I do think he was an erratic hothead at times and probably could have been a better leader. But I also think he would have chopped off one of his own pinkie fingers for a ring.

I should have read the OP closer. If it is all time ranking, meh, who knows. If I am picking teams, I pick GP first.

[AirJordan&Magic]

I would take Jason Kidd, believe it or not.

Kidd at times is very underappreciated. Kidd was more well rounded than Nash or Payton.

Kidd and Nash were EASILY better passers and playmakers than Payton ever was. Gary Payton however was EASILY the best defender out of the 3 (Jason Kidd has a case as top 5 defensive pg imo).

Kidd was better at running the fast break, just as good as Nash in the half court, better court vision, great post up guard (like Payton), was EASILY the best rebounding guard of the modern era, was great at playing the passing lanes, and was a great man-to-man defender as well. In fact, a prime Kidd was capable of guarding 1-3 positions (like Payton).

The only thing Nash and Payton did/does better than Kidd is scoring. (Payton a better defender imo).

Nash imo, is the best offensively of the 3, whereas Payton is the best defensively.
But prime Jason Kidd was a better all around player than those two.

[Rocker09]

Kidd....other than his shooting, I couldn't think of anything negative about this guy(basketball-wise)

[FCN]

Gary Payton was a great passer and if Kidd/Nash had better court-vision and passing skills it was only by a very slim margin.

[Court Vision]

I would take Jason Kidd, believe it or not.

Kidd at times is very underappreciated. Kidd was more well rounded than Nash or Payton.

Kidd and Nash were EASILY better passers and playmakers than Payton ever was. Gary Payton however was EASILY the best defender out of the 3 (Jason Kidd has a case as top 5 defensive pg imo).

Kidd was better at running the fast break, just as good as Nash in the half court, better court vision, great post up guard (like Payton), was EASILY the best rebounding guard of the modern era, was great at playing the passing lanes, and was a great man-to-man defender as well. In fact, a prime Kidd was capable of guarding 1-3 positions (like Payton).

The only thing Nash and Payton did/does better than Kidd is scoring. (Payton a better defender imo).

Nash imo, is the best offensively of the 3, whereas Payton is the best defensively.
But prime Jason Kidd was a better all around player than those two.

I agree with nearly everything you said, except for Kidd being as good as Nash in the halfcourt offense.

[Dasher]

Posters seem to be discounting Walt Frazier for the title of best All Around Point Guard in NBA History. He is GP's only real competition for the designation.

[Yung D-Will]

bump

[Younggrease]

I agree with nearly everything you said, except for Kidd being as good as Nash in the halfcourt offense.

we saw Nash be non-all star player for years in a halfcourt offense...He obviously isnt good that good of a halfcourt player.

[necya]

payton and kidd are better than nash

they all are great and different, depend of what you need for your team.

[evilmonkey]

1. Jason Kidd
2. Gary Payton
3. Steve Nash

This

[GP_20]

1. Gary Payton
2. Jason Kidd
3. Steve Nash


Give me the PG who can do it all. Score, pass, and play defense. Kidd can't score. Nash can't play defense. Payton can do all 3 well.

[Rose]

Kidd easily.

[Solid Snake]

Here's how you answer this question:

1) Who would you pick for one MUST WIN game?

2) Who do you pick for an entire Playoff run?

That's how you get your answer if you're teetering between two people.

[Willkill24]

gary payton is best all round

[Fatal9]

1. Nash
2. Payton
3. Kidd

[thejumpa]

1. Gary Payton
2. Jason Kidd
3. Steve Nash


Give me the PG who can do it all. Score, pass, and play defense. Kidd can't score. Nash can't play defense. Payton can do all 3 well.

I'm with you on this one. The only thing Kidd or Nash have over Gary is their passing. Other than that, it's The Glove in a landslide. He played wayy better defense and could score if you needed him to.

[GP_20]

Here's how you answer this question:

1) Who would you pick for one MUST WIN game?

2) Who do you pick for an entire Playoff run?

That's how you get your answer if you're teetering between two people.

Gary Payton in all cases




I'm with you on this one. The only thing Kidd or Nash have over Gary is their passing. Other than that, it's The Glove in a landslide. He played wayy better defense and could score if you needed him to.

Exactly

And it's not like Payton was a bad passer. He was very good, led some of the top offenses of his team. Also, his Ast:TO ratio was similar to both (A little higher than Kidd in their respective primes), he was better in the half-court than Kidd, and arguably better than Nash, and so on.

But he's the best scorer and defender out of the group and a great passer. Nash was a horrible defender, and Kidd a bad scorer. Payton had no weaknesses and was the best defender/scorer. It's pretty clear this goes to Payton.

[DC Zephyrs]

I value peak play the most when comparing careers, and I think Nash has had the best prime of the 3.

[Yung D-Will]

People in this thread are talking about Kidd like he wasn't a great defender.

Am I missing something here?

[thejumpa]

People in this thread are talking about Kidd like he wasn't a great defender.

Am I missing something here?

Yes, you are missing something. Gary Payton was a much better defender and anyone who saw them play for an extended period of time will tell you this. Kidd was no slouch, but he wasn't close to Gary.

DPOY-Michael Jordan and Gary Payton....only 2 guards to do it. There was a reason why they called him "The Glove".

[Yung D-Will]

Yes, you are missing something. Gary Payton was a much better defender and anyone who saw them play for an extended period of time will tell you this. Kidd was no slouch, but he wasn't close to Gary.

DPOY-Michael Jordan and Gary Payton....only 2 guards to do it. There was a reason why they called him "The Glove".

I already know how good Gary Payton is defensively. But People are talking about it like Jason Kidd is Steve Nash bad on defense.

[thejumpa]

I already know how good Gary Payton is defensively. But People are talking about it like Jason Kidd is Steve Nash bad on defense.

Ahh gotcha. Well, that isn't the case. It's just, when you put Gary into the conversation(greatest defensive PG of all time), then it overshadows a lot of things. Kidd is still 4x all defense 1st team and 5x all defense 2nd team so I don't know.

I know it's a cliche now, but I really do think Gary is underrated on here. I don't see how you can put Steve Nash ahead of him. Kidd has a case, but Steve Nash? Please.

[KoRn]

Damn that's sad. People see 2x MVP and they all excited. Nash can't play a lick of defense. Seriously, his defense skills consist of one thing: taking charges. He can pass and shoot better than 99% of PG's I've ever seen, but he has a huge hold in his game IMO. Never been to the Finals, either.

Whatever...Gary is only 4 years out and people probably still see him as a ring chaser. Oh well...Gary is better and I think this will be realized in 5-7 years when everyone is retired and things can be looked at a little better. I aint trippin.


people take nash because they value offense and don't really care about defense. as great as nash is on offense, how many career nights have the opposing point guards have on nash? and some of those point guards suck.

gary took his sonics to the finals, kidd took the nets to the finals 2 times. the best nash did was took the suns to 3 western conference finals.

nash= wins regular seasons
gary and kidd= win playoff games.

[thejumpa]

people take nash because they value offense and don't really care about defense. as great as nash is on offense, how many career nights have the opposing point guards have on nash? and some of those point guards suck.

gary took his sonics to the finals, kidd took the nets to the finals 2 times. the best nash did was took the suns to 3 western conference finals.

nash= wins regular seasons
gary and kidd= win playoff games.

:applause:

[Yung D-Will]

Even though I agree with most of it.

This guy has to take more credit then Nash for him not getting to the finals

:lol

http://www.nba.com/media/TimDuncRecap300.jpg

[Nastradamus]

Payton was my fave of the group, but Payton at the end of his prime got whooped badly and repeatedly by prime Kidd. Gotta take Kidd I think, tough Nash is close. Much better shooter, much worse defender, same as playmaker.

[kizut1659]

I think Kidd is getting too much credit for his finals' appearances. 2002-2003 Eastern conference was atrocious. In 2002, New Jerse won 52 games, which was shockingly enough to make it seeded 1st in the East, but it would have been seeded 5thin the West. In 2003, New Jersey won 49 games, which made it seeded 2nd in the East, while it would have been seeded 7th (!) in the West. Whhat is more, even New Jersey's modest win total was inflated by the general weaker level of competition in the East. New Jersey's victories over Pierce-Walker celtics and pre-Larry Brown/Rasheed Wallace Pistons was nothing to brag about. The bottom line is that I don't see how 2002-2003 Nets would get even out of the 2nd round in the West.

For the 2002-2003 playoffs, Kidd averaged 19-20 points on a terrible 40-41% shotting and less than 10 assists per game. There is no way a best player on any western conference team could have had these type of numbers and his team would have still advanced to the finals.

For these reasons, I think the Suns' 2005 and 2006 (and even 2010) conference finals' appearances were more impressive than the Nets reaching the finals in 2002 and 2003.

[Yung D-Will]

hmm

[Horde of Temujin]

1. The Glove
2. Nashish
3. Kidd

As for style i love Nash however but GP was the better player.

[wpdougie2180]

Yes, you are missing something. Gary Payton was a much better defender and anyone who saw them play for an extended period of time will tell you this. Kidd was no slouch, but he wasn't close to Gary.

DPOY-Michael Jordan and Gary Payton....only 2 guards to do it. There was a reason why they called him "The Glove".

Not to get off topic but Sidney Moncrief, Michael Cooper, and Alvin Robertson all say hello on the DPOY awards

Back on topic if we're talkin about careers like the OP said then

1. Kidd
2. Nash
3. Payton

but if your talkin about Peaks:

1. Payton
2. Kidd
3. Nash

[wakencdukest]

GP all day. Most complete all-around player of the 3.
Payton had all of the above, and had no real weakness.

Payton was definitely the most complete of the three. The only thing I hated about Payton was his mouth. The dude had little man syndrome.

[imdaman99]

Not to get off topic but Sidney Moncrief, Michael Cooper, and Alvin Robertson all say hello on the DPOY awards

Back on topic if we're talkin about careers like the OP said then

1. Kidd
2. Nash
3. Payton

but if your talkin about Peaks:

1. Payton
2. Kidd
3. Nash
This.

If I wanted peaks, give me the Glove. Dude was a stud on defense, and defense wins championships. It's a shame the rest of his team didn't comply during their Finals run, otherwise he would be my dream PG, no homo.

[DuMa]

Nash is too hard not to root for but he clearly falls behind the other two. his 2nd half career has been the most impressive compared to his first. its amazing how much a difference his career has been since rejoining the suns a 2nd time.

but its easily Kidd, GP, then Nash

[Solid Snake]

For one game I gotta go with prime, peak Nash.

For a playoff run I'll go with Kidd.

[mananmater]

Gary Payton brothers, one of the best of all time, he never one a title on his own though, sad.

The guy had the dribble, post play, defense, 3point range, dunking, and blocking abilities, he and michael jordan were fierce rivals, and the guy played with every muscle in his body,


yes, kidd and nash are great players, but payton was in another league, i'm going to be the devils advocate and say this, if the current miami heat had payton on there team, they would be guaranteed a championship!

[thejumpa]

Not to get off topic but Sidney Moncrief, Michael Cooper, and Alvin Robertson all say hello on the DPOY awards

Back on topic if we're talkin about careers like the OP said then

1. Kidd
2. Nash
3. Payton

but if your talkin about Peaks:

1. Payton
2. Kidd
3. Nash

Yeah my bad I meant the only guard to win it since Jordan. I mix that up all the time for some reason.

But I suppose you are right on Kidd being #1 if we are talking about overall career as Kidd is still doing pretty well at age 37. IIRC, that's when Gary retired. At that point, he was a backup on Miami so yeah...

But yeah.....we people say things like "Nash, easily....or Kidd, easily...it makes me laugh. Gary had memorable seasons and led his team in a tough Western Conference to the Finals and played the best D on MJ I've ever seen anyone do. As for his small man syndrome....he didn't have one. He was bigger than most PGs at 6'4. If you have ever met the man you would know that's just how he is. A natural shit talker.

[thejumpa]

Gary Payton brothers, one of the best of all time, he never one a title on his own though, sad.

The guy had the dribble, post play, defense, 3point range, dunking, and blocking abilities, he and michael jordan were fierce rivals, and the guy played with every muscle in his body,


yes, kidd and nash are great players, but payton was in another league, i'm going to be the devils advocate and say this, if the current miami heat had payton on there team, they would be guaranteed a championship!

Not only that, but they would beat the Bulls record of 72 wins and probably go undefeated in the playoffs. He would get in the head of every player on the court except for Kobe. They wouldn't know what to do.

[mananmater]

Not only that, but they would beat the Bulls record of 72 wins and probably go undefeated in the playoffs. He would get in the head of every player on the court except for Kobe. They wouldn't know what to do.


Exactly, I dont understand how some put guys like steve nash in the same sentence as payton, no disrespect to nash, great fundementals, but no gary payton, at all.


Jason Kidd, as good as he was years ago, just doesnt have the drive as gary did, kidd was embarrassed by jordan, no match, as he tried to do him one one many times as a rookie, unlike gary.

Gary would of won had he had a better team, his team was horrible, terrible.

[thejumpa]

Gary would of won had he had a better team, his team was horrible, terrible.

Hey now...Seattle wasn't that bad. Chicago was just too good. We got 2 games and MJ had to work for his points, though. It was a valiant effort.....

[mananmater]

Hey now...Seattle wasn't that bad. Chicago was just too good. We got 2 games and MJ had to work for his points, though. It was a valiant effort.....


Bro seattle was pretty bad, save the exception of kemp and a few others, but even then kemp was struggling and got into trouble a little later, if they put in all their efforts they would have one that ring.

[White Chocolate]

1)Gary Payton
2)Jason Kidd (you can make an argument for putting Kidd at #1, but can't go wrong with either one).

































3)Steve Nash

[thejumpa]

Bro seattle was pretty bad, save the exception of kemp and a few others, but even then kemp was struggling and got into trouble a little later, if they put in all their efforts they would have one that ring.

Exactly. It wasn't that we were bad, we just played bad and didn't give it our all. It was like we got star struck by Jordan and the Bulls and froze up. The only one who came to play was Gary. Kemp struggled and turned it up too late. But remember, we were 64-18 that year. We were actually a pretty good team but no one remembers because the Bulls were so ****ing dominant.

[wigwan]

People tend to forgot how incredible is Nash's shooting %. He doesn't shoot only 50% from the field and 40% behind the line, he almost always shot fade away jumpers over taller guy, pull up jumpers from the three points line or unbalanced jumpers. He tries what, one or two lay-up buy game? Pretty amazing for a undersized, non-athletic point guard. However, I can't argue with the fact that his poor defence is a major flaw, which places him under Kidd and Payton for the majority here.

For me:
1. Payton
2. Kidd
3. Nash

[thejumpa]

Yeah, Nashs shot is pretty. Perfect form and everything. If the defender is tall, he'll just loft it over you. He isn't undersized, though. Not even close. He's 6'3.

[White Chocolate]

Yeah, Nashs shot is pretty. Perfect form and everything. If the defender is tall, he'll just loft it over you. He isn't undersized, though. Not even close. He's 6'3.


He is undersized and is no where near 6'3". I was taller than him.

[wigwan]

Yeah, Nashs shot is pretty. Perfect form and everything. If the defender is tall, he'll just loft it over you. He isn't undersized, though. Not even close. He's 6'3.

I saw him in real and I can tell you that he is more 6'2, maybe 6'1 and a half.

[wpdougie2180]

Exactly. It wasn't that we were bad, we just played bad and didn't give it our all. It was like we got star struck by Jordan and the Bulls and froze up. The only one who came to play was Gary. Kemp struggled and turned it up too late. But remember, we were 64-18 that year. We were actually a pretty good team but no one remembers because the Bulls were so ****ing dominant.

I think your misremembering Kemp was the most dominant player on the court in that series other than game 3 he flat out beast Chicago. i remember them even saying he was playing better than anyone one either team including Jordan.

[thejumpa]

I think your misremembering Kemp was the most dominant player on the court in that series other than game 3 he flat out beast Chicago. i remember them even saying he was playing better than anyone one either team including Jordan.

It was wrong of me to say he struggled. However, I and a lot of people in Seattle expected even more. IIRC, he averaged like 23/9/. We lost 3 straight games, bro. In the Finals. That should NOT have happened. I remember watching like "Aight it's cool...we're gonna get the next one". Nope. We waiting till we had our backs against the wall to turn it up. I expected more and I'm still pissed off about it.

BTW Kemp had a shitload of turnovers in the playoffs. Yeah, he led our team in scoring, but the small things weren't being done. We should have put up a better fight.

[thejumpa]

I saw him in real and I can tell you that he is more 6'2, maybe 6'1 and a half.

Either way, 6'0-6'3 isn't undersized. That's average.

[wpdougie2180]

It was wrong of me to say he struggled. However, I and a lot of people in Seattle expected even more. IIRC, he averaged like 23/9/. We lost 3 straight games, bro. In the Finals. That should NOT have happened. I remember watching like "Aight it's cool...we're gonna get the next one". Nope. We waiting till we had our backs against the wall to turn it up. I expected more and I'm still pissed off about it.

BTW Kemp had a shitload of turnovers in the playoffs. Yeah, he led our team in scoring, but the small things weren't being done. We should have put up a better fight.

In Game 1 he had 32/8 on 65% shooting but had 7 tos
In game 2 he had 29/13 on 44% with 4 blocks and 3 tos

so it really wasn't his fault they lost the first 2 he stepped it up while his teammates didn't.

[thejumpa]

In Game 1 he had 32/8 on 65% shooting but had 7 tos
In game 2 he had 29/13 on 44% with 4 blocks and 3 tos

so it really wasn't his fault they lost the first 2 he stepped it up while his teammates didn't.

You know what....I probably am remembering the Finals a little differently and putting too much blame on Kemp. FWIW I didn't say it was his fault but I did expect more. Besides, with the exception of the first game, he didn't really beast. I don't consider 23/9 beasting against anyone....especially the 96 Bulls. I still love Kemp to this day, though. Always wished he got his life together and made a comeback. The biggest reason for my criticism is that I was really high on Kemp and thought he was one of the best players in the NBA. Same with Gary. I really thought we could win a ring for the town.

Was it Kemps fault? No. Was it Garys fault? No. Were the Sonics a horrible team? Of course not. They were 64-18 and made it past a tough Utah Jazz to the Finals. I think it was a combination of us being star struck(hence getting blitzed 3 games in a row) and the Bulls being really really good. I never even heard one commentator give us a chance. Seriously...I don't remember anyone saying we had a chance to win the title. I think it kind of got to our heads a little. Oh well...still got a chance to see Gary dunk on MJ:D

[Mrofir]

1 Nash
2 Payton
3 Kidd
Suck it everyone




For good measure -- Dikembe Mutombo is better than Shaq at defense. Shaq is better than Mutombo at offense. Therefor, they are equal. derrrr

[Nash-tastic]

I'm a fcking homer

1) STEVE NASH
2) Jason Kidd
3) Gary Payton

:rockon:

[Maga_1]

Kidd
Payton
Nash

[Mrofir]

Kidd
Payton
Nash

where did you find that gloriously sleazy picture

[Maga_1]

where did you find that gloriously sleazy picture

Its from alicia sacramone lol

[RagingBull33]

Offense, you choose Nash. Defense, you choose Payton. A good combo of both, you choose Kidd. Really depends on the situation, Nash probably provides the most team impact though.

[JtotheIzzo]

Payton is the best of the three, but it is closer than a lot of people think.

Kidd gets a lot of love for what? A two year run with NJ where they got blown off the court once they got out of the pathetically bad East?

Nash gets a ton of hate, but year after year he keeps getting it done.

Not enough credit goes to him for the job Phoenix did this year.

A couple of more prime years from Nash and he goes to the top of the list.

This is fact, hate it or love it young Nash has been doing it large for near a decade.

[AJ2k8]

The Glove

[Lebron23]

1. Gary Payton
2. Steve Nash
3. Jason Kidd

[GP_20]

1 Nash
2 Payton
3 Kidd
Suck it everyone




For good measure -- Dikembe Mutombo is better than Shaq at defense. Shaq is better than Mutombo at offense. Therefor, they are equal. derrrr

The last statement is only valid when discussing who is the better 2 way player.


But anyways, your logic doesn't apply. Payton and Kidd were on par with Nash on offense. Dikembe is not on par with O'Neal on offense.


Next

[GP_20]

Not to get off topic but Sidney Moncrief, Michael Cooper, and Alvin Robertson all say hello on the DPOY awards

Back on topic if we're talkin about careers like the OP said then

1. Kidd
2. Nash
3. Payton

but if your talkin about Peaks:

1. Payton
2. Kidd
3. Nash

I agree with peaks


But exactly why does Payton fall last in careers? As of now his career has been longer than Kidd or Nash's. He has a good durability advantage over both. Kidd's prime was longer than Payton's, but Payton's was longer than Nash's (so far).

His awards and accomplishments are right there with Kidd's as well. Nash has the 2 MVPs, but on the winning end he has little to show.


But even in a career comparison, how they played in their peaks/primes should be most important. And Payton has the edge there. I don't see what's wrong with his full career that should bring him down. His prime was longer than most PGs. For 10 years he played at an All-Star level (94-03).

[comerb]

Payton. Best all-around PG to ever play.

[the_wise_one]

1. Nash
2. Kidd
3. Payton

[White Chocolate]

Offense, you choose Nash. Defense, you choose Payton. A good combo of both, you choose Kidd. Really depends on the situation, Nash probably provides the most team impact though.


Yet Nash is the only one of the 3 that hasn't made the Finals. :oldlol:



Kidd gets a lot of love for what? A two year run with NJ where they got blown off the court once they got out of the pathetically bad East?


How were they blown off the court? 3 of the 4 losses to the Lakers were by 6 points or less and they took the Spurs to 6 games. Hell without that 4th quarter collapse, it goes 7.

[kizut1659]

[How were they blown off the court? 3 of the 4 losses to the Lakers were by 6 points or less and they took the Spurs to 6 games. Hell without that 4th quarter collapse, it goes 7.[/QUOTE]

A sweep is a sweep and the Lakers were tired after the 7-game exhausting series with Sacramento. San Antonio always plays down to the level of the competition - in the first round it took them 6 games to beat Marbury-Marion Phoenix. Everyone new the Nets were just canon fodder, thats why the finals ratings were the lowest ever. Do you really think the Nets would have even a slight shot to get out of the west (or to even reach conference finals)?

[kizut1659]

Jason Kidd playoff stats when NJ made Finals:

2002: .415 fg .189 3pt 19.6 8.2 9.1
2003: .402 fg .327 3pt 20.1 7.7 8.2

Nash playoff stats when Suns made W Conference Finals:

2005: .520 fg .389 3pt 23.9 4.8 11.3
2006 .502 fg .368 3pt 20.4 3.7 10.2
2010 .518 fg .380 3pt 17.8 3.3 10.1

I would say Kidd was slightly better than 2010 Nash and slightly worse than 2005-2006 Nash.

[tpols]

A sweep is a sweep and the Lakers were tired after the 7-game exhausting series with Sacramento. San Antonio always plays down to the level of the competition - in the first round it took them 6 games to beat Marbury-Marion Phoenix. Everyone new the Nets were just canon fodder, thats why the finals ratings were the lowest ever. Do you really think the Nets would have even a slight shot to get out of the west (or to even reach conference finals)?
LOL the nets SWEPT the detroit pistons in the ECF the year before they won the championship against the lakers when they were sporting a starting line up of dpoy ben wallace, rip hamilton, tayshaun prince, and chauncey billups. Kidd did all this with his second best teammate being kenyon martin who was good for a great dunk or two, but not much else. But kidd and the nets had no competition.:facepalm

[thejumpa]

LOL the nets SWEPT the detroit pistons in the ECF the year before they won the championship against the lakers when they were sporting a starting line up of dpoy ben wallace, rip hamilton, tayshaun prince, and chauncey billups. Kidd did all this with his second best teammate being kenyon martin who was good for a great dunk or two, but not much else. But kidd and the nets had no competition.:facepalm

I'm not saying the Nets were garbage, because they weren't. However, it's common knowledge that the East was extremely weak those years and NOBODY picked them to put up a fight against LA or San Antonio. I barely watched those Finals because I already knew what was going to happen.

[tpols]

I'm not saying the Nets were garbage, because they weren't. However, it's common knowledge that the East was extremely weak those years and NOBODY picked them to put up a fight against LA or San Antonio. I barely watched those Finals because I already knew what was going to happen.
Nobody picked detroit either but they beat the lakers.:confusedshrug:

The nets swept their way through losing only 2 games out of twelve en route to the finals. They DOMINATED the east in that time period. Then they took the heavily favored spurs to 6 games. Jason kidd took that team from a 8th seed berth at best w/o him to the finals. If kidd would've won that series it would have done a lot, lot more for his legacy than it did for duncans (considering strength of teammates/coach).

[kizut1659]

LOL the nets SWEPT the detroit pistons in the ECF the year before they won the championship against the lakers when they were sporting a starting line up of dpoy ben wallace, rip hamilton, tayshaun prince, and chauncey billups. Kidd did all this with his second best teammate being kenyon martin who was good for a great dunk or two, but not much else. But kidd and the nets had no competition.:facepalm

Tayshaun Prince was a rookie who averaged 10 minuts per game in regular season. Chauncey Billups was not yet the player he became later, shooting less than 40% and averaging less than 5 assists. Detroit that year barely beat freaking Orlando in a 7 game series, after Orland was leading 3-1. And you avoided my question - do you think 2003 could have advanced out in the West, or even out of the 2nd round in the west (i.e. could they have beaten Sacramento, Dallas, Lakers, or even the Wolves that year?)

[tpols]

Tayshaun Prince was a rookie who averaged 10 minuts per game in regular season. Chauncey Billups was not yet the player he became later, shooting less than 40% and averaging less than 5 assists. Detroit that year barely beat freaking Orlando in a 7 game series, after Orland was leading 3-1. And you avoided my question - do you think 2003 could have advanced out in the West, or even out of the 2nd round in the west (i.e. could they have beaten Sacramento, Dallas, Lakers, or even the Wolves that year?)
If the nets could take the spurs to 6 games they have a chance at beating any team in the west except the lakers.

Way to make excuses on a team that won the ring decisively the very next year.:oldlol:(the nets were actually up 3-2 on the championship pistons before blowing the lead in the second or third round of 2004)

[kizut1659]

Nobody picked detroit either but they beat the lakers.:confusedshrug:

The nets swept their way through losing only 2 games out of twelve en route to the finals. They DOMINATED the east in that time period. Then they took the heavily favored spurs to 6 games. Jason kidd took that team from a 8th seed berth at best w/o him to the finals. If kidd would've won that series it would have done a lot, lot more for his legacy than it did for duncans (considering strength of teammates/coach).

Beating 42-40 Milwakee and 44-38 Boston is just not that impressive. Sweeping Detroit is something but this was not the same Detroit it became a year later (and the 2004 Detroit was still lucky to win just because the Lakers absolutely self-imploded and Malone was injured.)

[thejumpa]

Nobody picked detroit either but they beat the lakers.:cheers:

The nets swept their way through to those finals losing only 2 games out of twelve en route to the finals. They DOMINATED the east in that time period. Then they took the heavily favored spurs to 6 games. Jason kidd took that team from a 8th seed berth at best to the finals. If he would've won that series it would have done a lot, lot more for his legacy than it did for duncans (considering strength of teammates/coach).

True true true....but Detroit played legendary defense.

I agree with everything that you are saying. But, let's keep things in perspective. They dominated the East because overall, the East wasn't that good. Again, I loved the pace they played and how Kidd ran that team. It was great to watch. I rooted for them both times in the Finals but it never happened. Kidd is one of those guys who you can't not like--he deserves a ring off of his legacy alone.

Whoever said Detroit was lucky to win obviously didn't watch the Finals. They played great defensive. You don't beat a stacked Lakers team in 5 luckily. That's impossible.

[kizut1659]

If the nets could take the spurs to 6 games they have a chance at beating any team in the west except the lakers.

Way to make excuses on a team that won the ring decisively the very next year.:oldlol:(the nets were actually up 3-2 on the championship pistons before blowing the lead in the second or third round of 2004)

What do you mean "excuses?" You did not answer any of my points. Rasheed Wallace and Larry Brown were not there that year, Tayshan Prince was a rookie, and Billups was not yet an all-star point guard. Except for Wallace, who was basically Mutombo of few years earlier, they did not have a single all-star!

[kizut1659]

If the nets could take the spurs to 6 games they have a chance at beating any team in the west except the lakers.

Way to make excuses on a team that won the ring decisively the very next year.:oldlol:(the nets were actually up 3-2 on the championship pistons before blowing the lead in the second or third round of 2004)

Also like I said, the Spurs play down to the level of the competition. It took them 6 games to beat 8th ranked Phoenix and Dallas WITHOUT Nowitski (and with pre-prime Nash) (and it would have been 7 games if not for Kerr's barrage of 3s in the 4th.)

[tpols]

What do you mean "excuses?" You did not answer any of my points. Rasheed Wallace and Larry Brown were not there that year, Tayshan Prince was a rookie, and Billups was not yet an all-star point guard. Except for Wallace, who was basically Mutombo of few years earlier, they did not have a single all-star!
Uh.. see you're making more excuses. So billups, rip hamilton, dpoy ben wallace, and tayshaun magically became great players the very next year:facepalm

Again, the nets WERE UP 3-2 on the 2004 championship detroit pistons in the ECSF. This was all because of jkidd orchestrating the offense and leading an aggressive defense. Kidd is a walking triple double who, amazingly enough, doesn't give a shit about stats. It came naturally (one of the best rebounding pgs ever). Without kidd, the nets were a 8 seed at best. The fact that it was a weak east makes this even more pathetic. Kidd MADE those new jersey teams in the early 00s.

[tpols]

Also like I said, the Spurs play down to the level of the competition. It took them 6 games to beat 8th ranked Phoenix and Dallas WITHOUT Nowitski (and with pre-prime Nash) (and it would have been 7 games if not for Kerr's barrage of 3s in the 4th.)
This is your opinion. The spurs have played many series where ' they didn't play down to the competition.'

[AK47DR91]

Payton and it's not even close. Not even counting his 2006 ring either.

The Glove is the 3rd greatest PG ever, only behind Isiah and Magic.

[Yung D-Will]

http://sportige.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/John-Stockton.jpg

[AK47DR91]

Stockton is top 5 but a lot of his success was because of Malone.

[mayo'sgrizz]

ya definitely

Kidd
Payton
Nash

but according to shaq himself. he believes nash is a top 3 PG of all time with magic johnson and oscar robertson.. :lol

[kizut1659]

Uh.. see you're making more excuses. So billups, rip hamilton, dpoy ben wallace, and tayshaun magically became great players the very next year:facepalm

Again, the nets WERE UP 3-2 on the 2004 championship detroit pistons in the ECSF. This was all because of jkidd orchestrating the offense and leading an aggressive defense. Kidd is a walking triple double who, amazingly enough, doesn't give a shit about stats. It came naturally (one of the best rebounding pgs ever). Without kidd, the nets were a 8 seed at best. The fact that it was a weak east makes this even more pathetic. Kidd MADE those new jersey teams in the early 00s.

Uh Tayshaun Prince greatly improved, as is common the 2nd year in the league. (see Rajon Rondo.) Other Detroit players did not "magically" become great players but they improved a lot due to Larry Brown. Rasheed Wallace was brought in and managed not to have atitude problems for the next two years. Just a different team than the year before - it happens (see 1999 vs. 2000 Lakers)

I do give Kidd credit - i think no other point guard AT THAT TIME could have taken NJ nets to the finals with their lineup other than Kidd - even out of the Eastern conferece. My only point was that the crappy nature of Eastern conference at that time still to be factored in. The fact that Nash did not play in the finals should not be held against him too much since he had to play 60 win San Antonio and Dallas teams rather than 50 game Detroit and Bostom teams. This is especially the case since Nash's stats were in some respects better. Simple as that.

[kizut1659]

[QUOTE=tpols]This is your opinion. The spurs have played many series where ' they didn't play down to the competition.'[/QUOName me

Name me one in 2003 other than the Lakers. Again, 42-40 Phoniex led by freaking Stephan Marbury also took Spurs to 6 games. So did Dallas WITHOUT Nowitski. How is that not playing down to the level of competition?

[GP_20]

http://sportige.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/John-Stockton.jpg


I have great respect for Payton and Stockton



Career- Stockton
Prime- Payton

[kizut1659]

I have great respect for Payton and Stockton



Career- Stockton
Prime- Payton

On one hand Malone helped Stockton's career, but on the other hand he hurt it. If Stockton would have played with someone who was less prone to chocking, he would have won a championship. Stockton's fault was that he was too unselfish - for someone pretty clutch and a good shooter - he did not shoot enough and too often passed at the end of the ball game.

I also think the Jazz might have won in 1998 if Jerry Sloan did not stupidly play Stockton only 29 minutes a game, with Howard Eisley playing almost 20 minutes and the Jazz falling relatively behind almost every time he was in the game.