LeBron Is Not A Ring Chaser

[Soundwave]

He's not going to the defending champions. The Heat are a average team coming into this summer. Getting Bosh made them an above average team, but not a championship contender really. L.A., Orlando, Boston, and probably one or two other teams are still better.

They need LeBron to win a championship.

Secondly, the whole thing about Magic/Bird/Kobe/MJ never left ... lemme ask you ...

Did Magic acquire Kareem via trade?

Did Bird draft McHale and Parish?

Did Jordan go get Scottie Pippen?

Kobe whined, but ultimately it took Jerry West to deal Gasol to L.A.

Point is, it's not like player talent made those teams great. The GM and pure luck really is something a player can't control. Kobe didn't do anything to go get Gasol, it's the front office that does all that.

It's not LeBron's fault he wasn't gift wrapped an ideal situation like Magic or Kobe was right from a rookie season where Kobe has played with stacked teams 80% of his career.

So what if the Cavs didn't sign Wade + Bosh to join LeBron. The point is, everyone wants to see great players play with other great players. Who would want to see Magic Johnson stuck on the L.A. Clippers for the duration of his career?

Now we can see what LeBron can do with two very good players with him -- the same opportunity Kobe has always had, the same one Jordan got, the same one Magic had, the same one Bird had.

Yeah it's too bad it couldn't happen in Cleveland, but that's not LeBron's fault that management couldn't bring in the type of talent he needs to be surrounded by. So he took matters into his own hands to ensure that he had a good supporting cast. So what?

[-playmaker-]

dude he openly admitts that his main motivation in this is to win a ring...that this gives him the best odds...

you're right, it isn't Bron's fault it didn't work out in Cleveland, but he is still chasing a ring...

he took a pay cut, to chase a ring...

[RedBlackAttack]

:oldlol:

If this isn't ring chasing, then I don't know what is. Honestly... If the term 'ring-chaser' were in the dictionary, there should simply be a picture of James.

[Soundwave]

A ring chaser IMO is someone who goes to a team that could already win a championship without them and tags along for the ride.

That's not the case here.

The Heat with Bosh + Wade aren't locks to win anything. Odds are they are still a notch below the Magic and Celtics and a couple of notches below the Lakers.

How many of you would bet on the Heat to win a title without LeBron?

*crickets*

If LeBron signed with the Lakers or forced a trade to the Lakers, then I would agree he's a ring chaser, but this is not the same situation.

[DuMa]

Previous known Ring Chasers:

Clyde Drexler in 1995 (succession)
Charles Barkley in 1996 (failure)
Karl Malone in 2004 (failure)
Gary Payton in 2004 (failure)
Gary Payton in 2006 (succession)

the difference between these guys and Lebron?

[Snoop_Cat]

Previous known Ring Chasers:

Clyde Drexler in 1995 (succession)
Charles Barkley in 1996 (failure)
Karl Malone in 2004 (failure)
Gary Payton in 2004 (failure)
Gary Payton in 2006 (succession)

the difference between these guys and Lebron?

They gave it their best and didn't cop out in their PRIMES like LeBron is doing

[Soundwave]

Previous known Ring Chasers:

Clyde Drexler in 1995 (succession)
Charles Barkley in 1996 (failure)
Karl Malone in 2004 (failure)
Gary Payton in 2004 (failure)
Gary Payton in 2006 (succession)

the difference between these guys and Lebron?

The Heat aren't NBA champions.

They haven't won anything for 4 years, and were never multiple title winners either.

The Heat are an average team. Now with the addition of LeBron + Bosh they can be considered true contenders.

The Heat cannot win a title without LeBron. That simple.

[Younggrease]

Previous known Ring Chasers:

Clyde Drexler in 1995 (succession)
Charles Barkley in 1996 (failure)
Karl Malone in 2004 (failure)
Gary Payton in 2004 (failure)
Gary Payton in 2006 (succession)

the difference between these guys and Lebron?

Lebron is 25 years old and in his prime...

[RedBlackAttack]

A ring chaser IMO is someone who goes to a team that could already win a championship without them and tags along for the ride.

That's not the case here.

The Heat with Bosh + Wade aren't locks to win anything. Odds are they are still a notch below the Magic and Celtics and a couple of notches below the Lakers.

How many of you would bet on the Heat to win a title without LeBron?

*crickets*

If LeBron signed with the Lakers or forced a trade to the Lakers, then I would agree he's a ring chaser, but this is not the same situation.

The guy is ADMITTING right now on SportsCenter that his only goal when making this decision was to get a ring. Another way to describe a person like that: ring-chaser.

To tag along with arguably the best player in the league and create a quasi-all-star team at the ripe, old age of 25.... laughable.

You don't think a team with Wade and Bosh would be competing for a title with or without LeBron James? Really?

[dynasty1978]

Previous known Ring Chasers:

Clyde Drexler in 1995 (succession)
Charles Barkley in 1996 (failure)
Karl Malone in 2004 (failure)
Gary Payton in 2004 (failure)
Gary Payton in 2006 (succession)

the difference between these guys and Lebron?

They've won a game in the finals?

[Soundwave]

The guy is ADMITTING right now on SportsCenter that his only goal when making this decision was to get a ring. Another way to describe a person like that: ring-chaser.

To tag along with arguably the best player in the league and create a quasi-all-star team at the ripe, old age of 25.

You don't think a team with Wade and Bosh would be competing for a title with or without LeBron James? Really?

He's admitting he wants a championship. What's wrong with that? Oh no *gasp* a player who actually wants to win something over taking bigger endorsement deals in New York.

[RedBlackAttack]

They gave it their best and didn't cop out in their PRIMES like LeBron is doing
Exactly... This is a new form of ring-chasing that I thought we would never see. He has taken the easy way out and will forever be a loser as far as I'm concerned.

He just conceded that, not only could he not win without another superstar, but he couldn't win without two superstars... One of which is arguably better than him.

Pathetic. LeBron just set the NBA back.

[imnew09]

Lol,
wade + bosh + lebron not NBA CHAMP contender team??
hahaha
watch some basketball dumb ass.

[twolvesfan]

What is so bad about wanting to win rings? I am applauding Lebron for getting out now at age 25 until waiting until he is 31 and still doesn't have a ring (Cough *Garnett* Cough). Unless you have a competent GM loyalty is a bad thing in the NBA.

[Soundwave]

Exactly... This is a new form of ring-chasing that I thought we would never see. He has taken the easy way out and will forever be a loser as far as I'm concerned.

He just conceded that, not only could he not win without another superstar, but he couldn't win without two superstars... One of which is arguably better than him.

Pathetic. LeBron just set the NBA back.

Which great players in NBA history have won without another superstar at their side?

Is it LeBron's fault that he was drafted by Cleveland instead of say whining and asking to be traded to the Lakers like Kobe did?

Would you think as highly of Magic Johnson if he got stuck on the Clippers instead of the Lakers and never won a title there surrounding by medicore-to-above average at best supporting casts?

Great players need to be surrounded by at least one other great player. It's not LeBron's fault that he didn't luck into a situation as good as Magic or Kobe or Bird.

[Sarcastic]

This would be like Michael Jordan teaming up with Barkley and Malone, because he couldn't get past the Pistons.

Lebron is a chump, and history will view him as such.

[DuMa]

The guy is ADMITTING right now on SportsCenter that his only goal when making this decision was to get a ring. Another way to describe a person like that: ring-chaser.

To tag along with arguably the best player in the league and create a quasi-all-star team at the ripe, old age of 25.

You don't think a team with Wade and Bosh would be competing for a title with or without LeBron James? Really?
Its not like Bosh+Wade+ whatever Miami had on the rest of the bench is already a proven team contender for the title. Lebron still joining an unproven team.

and even though LBJ said he made the decision this morning, i found that to be the biggest bullshit he said all his career long. He had something set up with Bosh and Wade prior to this season, probably in the 08 Olympics. It just didnt cement until they were all on the same page.

[twolvesfan]

This would be like Michael Jordan teaming up with Barkley and Malone, because he couldn't get past the Pistons.

Lebron is a chump, and history will view him as such.
No it wouldn't, LBJ's situation and Jordan's aren't even comparable.

[RedBlackAttack]

What is so bad about wanting to win rings? I am applauding Lebron for getting out now at age 25 until waiting until he is 31 and still doesn't have a ring (Cough *Garnett* Cough). Unless you have a competent GM loyalty is a bad thing in the NBA.
Legacy isn't just about 'rings.' The way in which you get those rings are also factored in when discerning a player's lasting legacy. LeBron just took the biggest short-cut in NBA history for a player of his caliber.

[Younggrease]

He's admitting he wants a championship. What's wrong with that? Oh no *gasp* a player who actually wants to win something over taking bigger endorsement deals in New York.

so if all the players on a team agree to take 5 million a year and the Heat in 3 years looks like

Chris Paul/Rose
Wade
Bron/Melo
Bosh/
Howard

Will that be ok with you?

This has nothing to do with money imo, it has everything to do with Lebron feeling the need to try to buy a champinship buy giving Miami extra cap room.

Such an absurd move...

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

They gave it their best and didn't cop out in their PRIMES like LeBron is doing
:applause:

[leopoldstotch]

face it.

lebron is coping out, and wants to take the easy road to win a ring. :lol

[Jacks3]

Dude went to a team that had arguably the best player in the game(Wade) AND the second best PF in the NBA (Bosh,who averaged 24/11/3 last year). Kobe's lead Championship teams (09,10) don't have a duo even close to that.

[Lakers13]

LeBron apologists coming out of the wood works :oldlol:

[Soundwave]

This would be like Michael Jordan teaming up with Barkley and Malone, because he couldn't get past the Pistons.

Lebron is a chump, and history will view him as such.

No this would be more like Jordan leaving Chicago if the front office never got Pippen/Grant for him to grow with.

LeBron would still be in Cleveland right now if the Cavs front office would've given him something to really grow with there.

Tell me who in the Cavs system (young player) you project to be comparable to Scottie Pippen, James Worthy, Kevin McHale, Kareem, Joe Dumars, etc.

*crickets*

Anyone? *crickets*

That's not LeBron's fault that the front office in Cleveland hasn't had the same luck/breaks they get in L.A., Chicago, etc.

[Derka]

Miami isn't a guaranteed winner. Bosh is unproven beyond the first round...Wade exited in the first round in 10...James collapsed in the 2nd round after struggling with the 8th seeded Bulls.

These guys on the same team doesn't guarantee a ring, and that's what a ring-chaser is after...a guaranteed win. Miami still has a lot of work to do before they hoist another banner.

[Sarcastic]

No it wouldn't, LBJ's situation and Jordan's aren't even comparable.

Michael Jordan would never go to someone else's team. His ego would never allow it.

Lebron is taking the easy way out. He is weak minded.

[RedBlackAttack]

Its not like Bosh+Wade+ whatever Miami had on the rest of the bench is already a proven team contender for the title. Lebron still joining an unproven team.

and even though LBJ said he made the decision this morning, i found that to be the biggest bullshit he said all his career long. He had something set up with Bosh and Wade prior to this season, probably in the 08 Olympics. It just didnt cement until they were all on the same page.

Break it down however you like, but this move cements the fact that LeBron should never be in discussion as the GOAT player in the NBA or anything close to it. Getting the ring isn't just about the act of winning it, the journey is also a huge part of things.

The fact that Jordan tried and failed so many times, was beaten up by the Pistons year-after-year, seemingly unable to get over the hump, facing questions about his ability to win and his selfishness... But, to stick with it and eventually get over that hump, that is part of what made him so great.

LeBron just quit on winning a title as the unquestioned best player on the team... He quit and decided to take a short-cut.

His legacy should and will reflect that.

[Soundwave]

Dude went to a team that had arguably the best player in the game(Wade) AND the second best PF in the NBA (Bosh,who averaged 24/11/3 last year). Kobe's lead Championship teams (09,10) don't have a duo even close to that.

When's Kobe ever won anything without having one of the best supporting casts in the NBA?

How well did he do in those few years he had to "suffer" (poor baby) playing only with Odom and Butler/Bynum?

How many championships or NBA Finals appearances for him?

Every year Bryant has ever won a title he's had the benefit of arguably the best front court in the NBA. Every. Single. Time.

[SoCalMike]

this thread is a joke... of course he's chasing a ring...




:pimp:

[DuMa]

Break it down however you like, but this move cements the fact that LeBron should never be in discussion as the GOAT player in the NBA or anything close to it. Getting the ring isn't just about the act of winning it, the journey is also a huge part of things.

The fact that Jordan tried and failed so many times, was beaten up by the Pistons year-after-year, seemingly unable to get over the hump, facing questions about his ability to win and his selfishness... But, to stick with it and eventually get over that hump, that is part of what made him so great.

LeBron just quit on winning a title as the unquestioned best player on the team... He quit and decided to take a short-cut.

His legacy should and will reflect that.

that is true but i wouldnt said it in those 'quit' and 'shortcut' words. i believe he, wade and bosh SACRIFICED their legacies for a greater goal.

All in all, what he did today doesnt really define ring chaser at all, IMHO. theres a big difference what he is doing than Clyde, Charles, Gary and Karl did.

[PleezeBelieve]

There's a human on earth who doesn't believe what LeBron just did didn't cement his legacy as a quitter and the most weak-minded player in generations?

Seriously?

[Fatal9]

Dude...

Russell would never join Wilt. Kareem would never join Walton. Bird would never join Magic. MJ would never join Malone, Ewing, Hakeem, Barkley etc. Kobe damn sure would never join Wade or Lebron. And the way he did it...it wasn't a trade or through a draft but through free agency in his prime. Lebron had an option to win just as much with the Bulls, and take on other greater challenges and BEAT his contemporaries but instead he joined them on a super team. I wouldn't be surprised if Lebron threw that Celtic series on purpose just to get the chance to play with his buddies.

He showed that he is not a competitor. He doesn't want to beat his rivals, he wants to have a good time with them and chase rings. This type of ring chasing AT THIS AGE is unprecedented. Get the fukk outta here with defending his decision.

[Soundwave]

I guess the bigger picture is ... what difference does it make if you "luck" into a great situation like Magic/Kobe/Bird did where they were surrounded by other Hall of Fame level players right from day 1 ... versus getting to that another way?

That's not skill or talent on the player.

That's up to the front office and quite frankly luck.

So LeBron bypassed that, but the end result is you want a great player to play with other great players.

Who really cares how they get there. Now you can compare LeBron more fairly to "legacy" players because now he is in a situation comparable to Bird/Magic/Jordan/Kobe/Kareem etc.

Now he actually has a real no.2 and no.3 option to play with. Lets see what he can do.

[RedBlackAttack]

I'm shocked that anyone is actually defending LeBron's move, here. It is akin to Bird and Magic joining forces in the mid-80s. There is no justification for it, other than a misguided drive for rings.

I just can't believe it...

[mrhoopfan]

Hey, Lebron is 25 years old and technically single. Why spend your time in Cleveland when you could be in sunny Miami with beautiful weather, hot women, and no state taxes.........He'd be dumb to stay in cold Cleveland.

[RedBlackAttack]

Who really cares how they get there.

I care... And all fans that are schooled in the history of the game should care.

LeBron is an all-time great talent. Unfortunately, he doesn't even have high school junior varsity level competitiveness and that just became abundantly clear.

Through all of the contrived rivalries in the league like LeBron and Kobe, which has never been a 'real' rivalry and the guys never played well against each other, Wade-James was an actual, real, great rivalry.

They brought it against one-another each and every time.

So... Let's join the same team? Really?

Nice job, fellas.

[justin43]

Lets see . . . .

1. Leaving a franchise that you promised to win a ring with because you can't win there.

This doesn't make Lebron a ring chaser, only a quitter.

2. Joining a team with 2 other legit superstars and planning to take less money to do it in order to give franchise money for acquiring better players.

This doesn't sounds like a ring chaser?:confusedshrug:

[Soundwave]

I care... And all fans that are schooled in the history of the game should care.

LeBron is an all-time great talent. Unfortunately, he doesn't even have high school junior varsity level competitiveness and that just became abundantly clear.

Through all of the contrived rivalries in the league like LeBron and Kobe, which has never been a 'real' rivalry and the guys never played well against each other, Wade-James was an actual, real, great rivalry.

They brought it against one-another each and every time.

So... Let's join the same team? Really?

Nice job, fellas.


If you know anything about the history of the game, then tell me this ... how many players as good as LeBron James have had Mo Williams as their best 2nd option their first 7 seasons in the league?

Even Jordan had Pippen by this time.

[Soundwave]

Lets see . . . .

1. Leaving a franchise that you promised to win a ring with because you can't win there.

This doesn't make Lebron a ring chaser, only a quitter.

2. Joining a team with 2 other legit superstars and planning to take less money to do it in order to give franchise money for acquiring better players.

This doesn't sounds like a ring chaser?:confusedshrug:

Lemme ask you this ... are the Heat NBA champions with just Wade + Bosh?

Would you bet on them winning an NBA title?

*crickets*

[endandout]

This would be like Michael Jordan teaming up with Barkley and Malone, because he couldn't get past the Pistons.

Lebron is a chump, and history will view him as such.

u mad?

[DuMa]

Some more ring chasers.

Shaq in 2009-2010 (failed)
Ron Artest in 2009-2010 (succession)
Rasheed Wallace in 2009-2010 (failed)

[tpols]

soundwave how do you not understand man?

It's all about the competitive spirit. Thats why the 90s were so great. They're were one or two great players on a bunch of teams and they were all battling it out.

Lebron just gave up on being the leader, the messiah for a city in need, a champion, and possibly the GOAT title to join the heat and play with his buddies. His buddies!? He's supposed to be fighting to beat these guys like it's life or death, and he joins them? Thats messed up man. I can't respect that.

All of your comparisons with magic and bird and whatnot don't relate because those guys were placed in a situation and they made the best of it. They were all leaders that, if absent, their respective teams would have lost. Lebron, however, is teaming up with the number one player in the league! Do you understand that? That has NEVER happened before. The number one and number two top players in their primes have never been on the same team in the league. Then you throw in arguably the best PF in the league to play with them. There's just no comparison.

Face it, after this decision it has been shown lebron doesn't have the heart of a champion.

[Fatal9]

Barkley: "When you are 25, you shouldn't be piggybacking on other players"

[Sarcastic]

Anyone who defends this decision has no understanding of the history of the game, and what winning titles really means.

[justin43]

Lemme ask you this ... are the Heat NBA champions with just Wade + Bosh?

Would you bet on them winning an NBA title?

*crickets*

You never answered my question, but sidestepped with another.:violin: Stop making excuses for him. Lebron is a ring chaser.:violin:

[Soundwave]

Anyone who defends this decision has no understanding of the history of the game, and what winning titles really means.

So do you not count the 2008 Celtics championship?

Also tell me exactly what Kobe had to do with Gasol coming to L.A.

Was it his talent? What skill did that take?

[LA_Showtime]

The guy is ADMITTING right now on SportsCenter that his only goal when making this decision was to get a ring. Another way to describe a person like that: ring-chaser.

To tag along with arguably the best player in the league and create a quasi-all-star team at the ripe, old age of 25.... laughable.

You don't think a team with Wade and Bosh would be competing for a title with or without LeBron James? Really?

I don't care that he did it. If he wants to take less money and build a super team then let him do it. However, I don't like the way he went about it. He should have just had his agent give ESPN the news instead of turning free agency into a circus.

One thing that really worries me... this shit could potentially change how the NBA works. The NBA is losing money. Teams are going to start trading pieces because they know they have no chance. It's going to be the MLB 2.0.

[Braincells]

Is soundwave Ginobili's alt? Seems like he can't go one post without hating on Kobe.

Now he's hating on Magic..... This is pathetic.

[Jacks3]

When's Kobe ever won anything without having one of the best supporting casts in the NBA?



You could say the same thing about Jordan/Bird/Kareem/Wilt/Russell and every other legend. You realize that, don't you?

[Soundwave]

You could say the same thing about Jordan/Bird/Kareem/Wilt/Russell and every other legend. You realize that, don't you?

Exactly my point.

Great players need other great players to not only win titles, but to maximize their own talent/potential.

Do you think it would've been good for Magic if he got stuck on the L.A. Clippers (by nothing other than bad luck) and to have stayed there his whole career?

Would that be better? Or was it more fun to watch his talent explode with a stacked team that included Kareem and Worthy? Magic didn't "earn" that roster, it was gift wrapped for him from day 1 ... LeBron simply hasn't been as lucky (and that's all that is -- luck -- players aren't GMs).

[Sarcastic]

So do you not count the 2008 Celtics championship?

Also tell me exactly what Kobe had to do with Gasol coming to L.A.

Was it his talent? What skill did that take?

Celtics didn't have 3 of the top 15 players, and 2 of the top 3.
If you don't see the difference, then you are either blind or an idiot. Looking at your posts, the latter is good possibility.

[Jacks3]

Exactly my point.

Great players need other great players to not only win titles, but to maximize their own talent/potential.

Do you think it would've been good for Magic if he got stuck on the L.A. Clippers (by nothing other than bad luck) and to have stayed there his whole career?

Would that be better? Or was it more fun to watch his talent explode with a stacked team that included Kareem and Worthy? Magic didn't "earn" that roster, it was gift wrapped for him from day 1 ... LeBron simply hasn't been as lucky (and that's all that is -- luck).
Hey, I have no problems with what LeBron did. :confusedshrug:

[Soundwave]

Celtics didn't have 3 of the top 15 players, and 2 of the top 3.
If you don't see the difference, then you are either blind or an idiot. Looking at your posts, the latter is good possibility.

Well, gee, when he was 18 maybe LeBron should've demanded a trade to the Lakers immediately after being drafted.

Then he could've been blessed with a stacked team from day 1.

But only a loser does that, right? :violin:

[Sarcastic]

This is the number 1 player in the league, 2 time MVP, and someone who is trying to be the #1 GOAT, going to SOMEONE ELSE'S TEAM to get a ring.

He is going to WADE'S TEAM.

[ginobli2311]

I vowed not to post with you morons again....but soundwave is dead on.

lebron wanted to stay in cleveland. he tried to get bosh to join him.....and bosh said no. i'm not coming to that crappy team in that crappy city. i'm going to miami.

what do you want lebron to do?

people on this board and the media ****ing tear him down all the time for not winning titles. lebron puts up the best numbers....it doesn't matter because he didn't win. lebron wins 2 mvps.....who cares he didn't win. its so ****ing stupid. you all created this along with your moronic leaders on ESPN judging these players solely on titles.

you want it to be all about winning? well you ****ing got it now morons.

and why the hate for going to the heat? the bulls are a far better team and lebron would have a much easier time winning in chicago.

and for the record:

gasol/bynum/artest/odom/fisher/blake.....with phil jackson is more talented and better overall than

wade/bosh/chalmers/min/min/min........with spoelstra.

we just saw a player put winning above all. how is this any different than Kobe begging to be traded or for the lakers to get better? its not at all. lebron wanted to stay....so its his fault he got drafted by a ****ing terrible franchise in a city that nobody wants live or play in?

magic/kareem/worthy
jordan/pippen/grant
jordan/pippen/rodman/kukoc
kobe/shaq/rice
kobe/gasol/bynum/artest/odom
mchale/bird/johnson/parrish
duncan/robinson/johnson
duncan/parker/manu
dumars/thomas/lambier/rodman
kg/pierce/allen

STFU. seriously.....i never thought i would need to be defending lebron for this so quickly.

maybe you see now why rings are a flawed way to rank players?????

[Snoop_Cat]

Well, gee, when he was 18 maybe LeBron should've demanded a trade to the Lakers immediately after being drafted.

Then he could've been blessed with a stacked team from day 1.

But only a loser does that, right? :violin:

Kobe wasn't a star copping out to join forces to piggyback his way to a title.

Kobe did that to go to a big market and create a legacy

-Kobe hater

[Soundwave]

This is the number 1 player in the league, 2 time MVP, and someone who is trying to be the #1 GOAT, going to SOMEONE ELSE'S TEAM to get a ring.

He is going to WADE'S TEAM.

If he's the number 1 player in the league, which you admit, then whatever team he's on, is his team.

Wade is older and is going to need LeBron to carry more of the load as the years go on anyway.

[Sarcastic]

Well, gee, when he was 18 maybe LeBron should've demanded a trade to the Lakers immediately after being drafted.

Then he could've been blessed with a stacked team from day 1.

But only a loser does that, right? :violin:

Or he could have had a team built around him. Either or.

He is 25. MJ didn't win till he was like 28. He doesn't need a ring this bad to ruin his legacy.

[Sarcastic]

If he's the number 1 player in the league, which you admit, then whatever team he's on, is his team.

Wade is older and is going to need LeBron to carry more of the load as the years go on anyway.


It will always be Wade's team, till Wade leaves.

Lebron's legacy is only as good as its perception. The perception is now that he is a ring chaser. You can say he is not till you are blue in the face, but it won't change how history views him.

[DuMa]

Or he could have had a team built around him. Either or.

He is 25. MJ didn't win till he was like 28. He doesn't need a ring this bad to ruin his legacy.

Its his own legacy to ruin.

[Soundwave]

Or he could have had a team built around him. Either or.

He is 25. MJ didn't win till he was like 28. He doesn't need a ring this bad to ruin his legacy.

Do you see anyone in Cleveland that can develop into a Scottie Pippen?

Because the Bulls already had drafted Pippen and Grant at this point in Jordan's tenure there, it was just a matter of them growing.

The Cavs have 32-year-old Antawn Jamison and 38-year-old Shaq.

It's not the player's job to be the GM. Magic wasn't great to get Kareem + Worthy ... he lucked into that situation. It's not LeBron's fault he wasn't gift wrapped a stacked team from day 1 like other superstars have been.

Jordan is a bit of an exception, but even in Chicago, by this time, the Bulls had other young players that had good potential, and you could see the outlines of a great team forming.

[Sarcastic]

I vowed not to post with you morons again....but soundwave is dead on.

lebron wanted to stay in cleveland. he tried to get bosh to join him.....and bosh said no. i'm not coming to that crappy team in that crappy city. i'm going to miami.

what do you want lebron to do?

people on this board and the media ****ing tear him down all the time for not winning titles. lebron puts up the best numbers....it doesn't matter because he didn't win. lebron wins 2 mvps.....who cares he didn't win. its so ****ing stupid. you all created this along with your moronic leaders on ESPN judging these players solely on titles.

you want it to be all about winning? well you ****ing got it now morons.

and why the hate for going to the heat? the bulls are a far better team and lebron would have a much easier time winning in chicago.

and for the record:

gasol/bynum/artest/odom/fisher/blake.....with phil jackson is more talented and better overall than

wade/bosh/chalmers/min/min/min........with spoelstra.

we just saw a player put winning above all. how is this any different than Kobe begging to be traded or for the lakers to get better? its not at all. lebron wanted to stay....so its his fault he got drafted by a ****ing terrible franchise in a city that nobody wants live or play in?

magic/kareem/worthy
jordan/pippen/grant
jordan/pippen/rodman/kukoc
kobe/shaq/rice
kobe/gasol/bynum/artest/odom
mchale/bird/johnson/parrish
duncan/robinson/johnson
duncan/parker/manu
dumars/thomas/lambier/rodman
kg/pierce/allen

STFU. seriously.....i never thought i would need to be defending lebron for this so quickly.

maybe you see now why rings are a flawed way to rank players?????

On a side note from a previous discussion, if Spolestra wins multiple titles with the Diva Team, is he a great coach, or just a coach that coached a great team?

[Sarcastic]

Its his own legacy to ruin.

That is very true. Brett Favre used the same logic in going to Minnesota.

As someone who appreciates the history of the game, I wish he didn't do it. I would have been ok with him going almost anywhere else. But joining up with the second best player in the league is a coward move.

[tpols]

I vowed not to post with you morons again....but soundwave is dead on.

lebron wanted to stay in cleveland. he tried to get bosh to join him.....and bosh said no. i'm not coming to that crappy team in that crappy city. i'm going to miami.

what do you want lebron to do?

people on this board and the media ****ing tear him down all the time for not winning titles. lebron puts up the best numbers....it doesn't matter because he didn't win. lebron wins 2 mvps.....who cares he didn't win. its so ****ing stupid. you all created this along with your moronic leaders on ESPN judging these players solely on titles.

you want it to be all about winning? well you ****ing got it now morons.

and why the hate for going to the heat? the bulls are a far better team and lebron would have a much easier time winning in chicago.

and for the record:

gasol/bynum/artest/odom/fisher/blake.....with phil jackson is more talented and better overall than

wade/bosh/chalmers/min/min/min........with spoelstra.

we just saw a player put winning above all. how is this any different than Kobe begging to be traded or for the lakers to get better? its not at all. lebron wanted to stay....so its his fault he got drafted by a ****ing terrible franchise in a city that nobody wants live or play in?

magic/kareem/worthy
jordan/pippen/grant
jordan/pippen/rodman/kukoc
kobe/shaq/rice
kobe/gasol/bynum/artest/odom
mchale/bird/johnson/parrish
duncan/robinson/johnson
duncan/parker/manu
dumars/thomas/lambier/rodman
kg/pierce/allen

STFU. seriously.....i never thought i would need to be defending lebron for this so quickly.

maybe you see now why rings are a flawed way to rank players?????
Okay listen retard... it's all about context like you say...

When kobe joined shaq he was totally unproven; lebron was the best in the league. When pippen came to the bulls, he was largely unproven. When magic came to the lakers, he was unproven. When duncan went to robinson, he was unproven.

NEVER have the two best players, in their primes nonetheless, joined forces in the league before WILLINGLY. It may have happened by coincidence and great players just made other great players better naturally when they happened to be on the same team, but the NUMBER 1 and the NUMBER 2 have never PURPOSELY joined forces. When you throw bosh into the mix it's just a wash.

You ussually take a somewhat fair look at things but this is just f!cked up.

This is

[ginobli2311]

It will always be Wade's team, till Wade leaves.

Lebron's legacy is only as good as its perception. The perception is now that he is a ring chaser. You can say he is not till you are blue in the face, but it won't change how history views him.

and look at how much perception changed for jordan early on. were you alive in 1985 to 1990? people were hammering jordan all the time saying he would never win and that he was too selfish and he could never share the ball enough to win.

and guess what. the bulls got pippen and phil jackson and built a great team around jordan and he won.

so what if lebron had to leave to achieve the same thing????? nobody was coming to cleveland. its a terrible franchise and a terrible city to live in for nba players. lebron had to leave because of 2 things:

1. moronic talking heads on espn and the idiotic public (like most of you)...that negate everything a player does unless he wins a ring. you all ignore circumstances and level of play.

2. the cavs did a terrible job building around lebron. they lost boozer and it that really crippled them. they drafted horribly. the brought in a bad coach. they made bad free agent moves. anyone that knows that game could see how awful to cavs front office did. lebron was just so great since 07 that he covered up all the mistakes. adding around 22 to 25 wins a year to that sorry ass team.

so sorry......you have created the standard. now you don't want to live in you own shit. tough luck.

and top trying to credit magic/bird/kobe/jordan for winning on their own. they did no such thing. funny how they were all drafted by the big market teams......of course they didn't leave. they were handed the keys to the league. kobe comes in and gets a prime shaq, bird get mchale/parrish/johnosn, magic gets kareem, jordan gets pippen, duncan gets robinson.........

seriously.....you people are just so ****ing dumb.

[Kingwillball]

The first 7 yrs of Lebron's Career brought us to this point of a 1 Hr special why cause he achieved all the personal accolades and hype U can get..He put up the stats and achieved personal greatness now we will witness the next 7 yrs where accomplish's Team goals and championships and only will enhance his Legacy. If he wins 4 or 5 Championships people will long have forgotten him leaving Clev. they will say he made the best move for himself and his legacy. U don't even think Of KG as Being on Twolves or Allen on Sonic since the greatest success was winning championships with Celtics.

[ginobli2311]

On a side note from a previous discussion, if Spolestra wins multiple titles with the Diva Team, is he a great coach, or just a coach that coached a great team?

we will see. you don't always need a great coach. you need two of the following to win.

1 great defense/rebounding
2 at least 2 or more great players
3 great coaching

never said you had to have great coaching.....you need at least 2 of the above though.

the jury is out on spoelstra. i didn't think doc was a great coach....but he definitely proved me wrong. and doc is no doubt a great coach.

does that answer you?

[Noob Saibot]

and look at how much perception changed for jordan early on. were you alive in 1985 to 1990? people were hammering jordan all the time saying he would never win and that he was too selfish and he could never share the ball enough to win.

and guess what. the bulls got pippen and phil jackson and built a great team around jordan and he won.

so what if lebron had to leave to achieve the same thing????? nobody was coming to cleveland. its a terrible franchise and a terrible city to live in for nba players. lebron had to leave because of 2 things:

1. moronic talking heads on espn and the idiotic public (like most of you)...that negate everything a player does unless he wins a ring. you all ignore circumstances and level of play.

2. the cavs did a terrible job building around lebron. they lost boozer and it that really crippled them. they drafted horribly. the brought in a bad coach. they made bad free agent moves. anyone that knows that game could see how awful to cavs front office did. lebron was just so great since 07 that he covered up all the mistakes. adding around 22 to 25 wins a year to that sorry ass team.

so sorry......you have created the standard. now you don't want to live in you own shit. tough luck.

and top trying to credit magic/bird/kobe/jordan for winning on their own. they did no such thing. funny how they were all drafted by the big market teams......of course they didn't leave. they were handed the keys to the league. kobe comes in and gets a prime shaq, bird get mchale/parrish/johnosn, magic gets kareem, jordan gets pippen, duncan gets robinson.........

seriously.....you people are just so ****ing dumb.

^this people, should close the topic.

[knickscity]

Reggie Miller just compared him to A-Rod.

He hit it on the head with that one.

Arguably the best player in the game, who can't win, deciding to latch on to a proven winner, to chase rings.

[ginobli2311]

Okay listen retard... it's all about context like you say...

When kobe joined shaq he was totally unproven; lebron was the best in the league. When pippen came to the bulls, he was largely unproven. When magic came to the lakers, he was unproven. When duncan went to robinson, he was unproven.

NEVER have the two best players, in their primes nonetheless, joined forces in the league before WILLINGLY. It may have happened by coincidence and great players just made other great players better naturally when they happened to be on the same team, but the NUMBER 1 and the NUMBER 2 have never PURPOSELY joined forces. When you throw bosh into the mix it's just a wash.

You ussually take a somewhat fair look at things but this is just f!cked up.

This is


lebron just put in 7 years of time. what does it matter if lebron joins bosh/wade or bosh joins cleveland? what does it matter? and so what he is joining other great player. this isn't his 3rd year in the league or something. this is going to be his 8th year and he still has not played with a top 25 player in the league.

so basically you are saying if you luck into it through the draft its ok. something a player has no control over...that makes it ok. but when a player gives up money and stats to win its no ok because he is chasing a ring.

do you know how dumb that sounds? so its ok that magic got drafted by the lakers? but it would not be ok if he joined kareem in year 3? seriously....its so illogical.

[tpols]

and look at how much perception changed for jordan early on. were you alive in 1985 to 1990? people were hammering jordan all the time saying he would never win and that he was too selfish and he could never share the ball enough to win.

and guess what. the bulls got pippen and phil jackson and built a great team around jordan and he won.

so what if lebron had to leave to achieve the same thing????? nobody was coming to cleveland. its a terrible franchise and a terrible city to live in for nba players. lebron had to leave because of 2 things:

1. moronic talking heads on espn and the idiotic public (like most of you)...that negate everything a player does unless he wins a ring. you all ignore circumstances and level of play.

2. the cavs did a terrible job building around lebron. they lost boozer and it that really crippled them. they drafted horribly. the brought in a bad coach. they made bad free agent moves. anyone that knows that game could see how awful to cavs front office did. lebron was just so great since 07 that he covered up all the mistakes. adding around 22 to 25 wins a year to that sorry ass team.

so sorry......you have created the standard. now you don't want to live in you own shit. tough luck.

and top trying to credit magic/bird/kobe/jordan for winning on their own. they did no such thing. funny how they were all drafted by the big market teams......of course they didn't leave. they were handed the keys to the league. kobe comes in and gets a prime shaq, bird get mchale/parrish/johnosn, magic gets kareem, jordan gets pippen, duncan gets robinson.........

seriously.....you people are just so ****ing dumb.
Answer this for me:

Was pippen a top 2 player- nah f!ck it, was pippen a top 10 player in the league right before he joined Jordan?

Were the bulls considered to be instant finals when they got pippen and jackson?

The bulls started from the bottom and worked their way up to the top. They went from nobodies to somebodies.

Lebron's situation is exactly the opposite. They are already somebodies RIGHT NOW and they'll either win and remain that way or they'll become nobodies.

[RedBlackAttack]

Answer this for me:

Was pippen a top 2 player- nah f!ck it, was pippen a top 10 player in the league right before he joined Jordan?

Were the bulls considered to be instant finals when they got pippen and jackson?

The bulls started from the bottom and worked their way up to the top. They went from nobodies to somebodies.

Lebron's situation is exactly the opposite. They are already somebodies RIGHT NOW and they'll either win and remain that way or they'll become nobodies.
Don't bother. You are wasting your breath.

Anyone -- outside of Miami fans that are happy about having a great team -- that are defending this move and attempting to compare it to moves by great players of the past are either misinformed, purposely trying to argue, or just don't know the history of the game.

Simple as that. I'm not going to read 10 paragraphs explaining why it was the right move for James -- at the age of 25 -- to decide that his best route to greatness was creating a quasi-all-star team in South Beach.

The is unprecedented and shows a lack of competitiveness beyond belief.

[ginobli2311]

Answer this for me:

Was pippen a top 2 player- nah f!ck it, was pippen a top 10 player in the league right before he joined Jordan?

Were the bulls considered to be instant finals when they got pippen and jackson?

The bulls started from the bottom and worked their way up to the top. They went from nobodies to somebodies.

Lebron's situation is exactly the opposite. They are already somebodies RIGHT NOW and they'll either win and remain that way or they'll become nobodies.

lebron's journey is just as apt. he started at the bottom. he came into a 17 win team and turned that into a 35 win team his first ****ing year moron. he then lost boozer and still won 45 his 2nd year. he made the nba finals with the worst supporting cast ever at the age of 22. something not even jordan could accomplish. he then led a weak supporting cast to over 60 wins with back to back mvps.

that was lebron's journey. if he didn't play for a small market team and a terrible franchise and in a terrible city then more players would have been willing to come. why should lebron pay for the sins of the front office and for getting drafted by a terrible city to live in?

to answer your question......pippen was a top ten player in the league when they won. who the **** cares how good he was when they lost. what the **** does that matter? the bulls won because the team around jordan improved and they got phil jackson.

well guess what. the cavs didn't improve. they could not get anyone....and long term they had nothing.

so lebron had to leave to get the same thing that jordan got in year 7....lebron is getting it a year late.

[ginobli2311]

Don't bother. You are wasting your breath.

Anyone -- outside of Miami fans that are happy about having a great team -- that are defending this move and attempting to compare it to moves by great players of the past are either misinformed, purposely trying to argue, or just don't know the history of the game.

Simple as that. I'm not going to read 10 paragraphs explaining why it was the right move for James -- at the age of 25 -- to decide that his best route to greatness was creating a quasi-all-star team in South Beach.

The is unprecedented and shows a lack of competitiveness beyond belief.


dude. and then you have people on here saying he has to win at least 5 titles to be the GOAT. well how the **** can lebron win five titles if he stays in cleveland another 6 years? your flawed logic is just so pathetic. you judge him solely off rings and then you flame him for wanting to win.

and again.......give me the current lakers squad all day over this squad. lol....the ****ing lakers are so stacked and much better. with 4 years of chemistry and the best coach ever. god damn.......i actually wanted the lakers to win the title. but you ****ing morons actually created this situation along with your leaders legler and skip bayless. ****ing idiots.

you want to know the definition of hating? its this.

magic had kareem/worthy/scott/rambis.....that team is so much better than this heat team its a joke.....and the current lakers teams is better on paper as well. seriously.......STFU

[Sarcastic]

we will see. you don't always need a great coach. you need two of the following to win.

1 great defense/rebounding
2 at least 2 or more great players
3 great coaching

never said you had to have great coaching.....you need at least 2 of the above though.

the jury is out on spoelstra. i didn't think doc was a great coach....but he definitely proved me wrong. and doc is no doubt a great coach.

does that answer you?

My point was coaches are a product of the teams they have. There is a good chance Spolestra wins multiple titles and is considered a better coach than someone like George Karl or Jerry Sloan, who never won one.

[ginobli2311]

My point was coaches are a product of the teams they have. There is a good chance Spolestra wins multiple titles and is considered a better coach than someone like George Karl or Jerry Sloan, who never won one.

i don't think that is true at all. del harris could not win the kobe/shaq. collins could not win with jordan/pippen. carlisle and saunders could not win with the pistons. stan van gundy could not win with shaq/lebron.

i think there are some scenarios when coaches are products of teams......but history proves that those are very very rare.

coaching is a key component to winning. so important that it can trump what happens on the court at times. see pat riley in the 06 finals or larry brown's importance to the sixers that made the finals or the title for the pistons.

[ginobli2311]

thats right *******.

i got your back soundwave.

[RedBlackAttack]

thats right *******.

i got your back soundwave.
:oldlol:

I'm not going to debate this thing. There are some things that are worth arguing... Others are not. This is not.

LeBron just took a massive short-cut to a title and his legacy will suffer as a result. That is really all that needs to be said.

[Sarcastic]

thats right *******.

i got your back soundwave.

As someone who claims to understand the history of the game, how can you defend this move?

It is cowardly. No question about it.

[ginobli2311]

:oldlol:

I'm not going to debate this thing. There are some things that are worth arguing... Others are not. This is not.

LeBron just took a massive short-cut to a title and his legacy will suffer as a result. That is really all that needs to be said.

you know you are wrong. and i can show you why. massive shortcut? he just spent 7 years in ****ing basketball purgatory.

short cut? hardly. a short cut is refusing to play for the team that drafts you to play with the best player in the league. a short cut is being drafter by the lakers and getting to play with kareem.

putting in 7 years and turning a 17 win team to a finals team and a perennial contender by year 4 is not taking a short cut dude. you have it all backwards.

agree to disagree. can't wait until these guys wins 5 titles in the next decade and they lebron/wade wind up in the top 8 ever. should be fun to watch.

its all about titles right? guess what.....bosh/wade/lebron just owned everyone on this ****ing retarded board. you want titles? here you go *******. i love it.

[ginobli2311]

As someone who claims to understand the history of the game, how can you defend this move?

It is cowardly. No question about it.

what is the difference between begging for a trade?

in all seriousness. lebron begged bosh to come to cleveland and he said no.

so what should he have done? why can't he get on a team that has similar talent as the Lakers? i just don't get it?

[RedBlackAttack]

you know you are wrong. and i can show you why.

If you can show me 'why,' you have failed thus far.

Until you show me an example of a player vying for basketball immortality leaving the franchise that drafted him without winning a title to join a team that was already manned by the second best player in the NBA, you will have failed in 'showing me' why you are right.

Then, throw in arguably the best PF in the game for fun.

All of them are in or are entering their athletic primes.

Show me an example of a superstar free agent fighting for basketball immortality opting out of his current situation and to a team like that and I may listen to you. Of course, you won't find it, because this is unprecedented.

But, good luck with that.

[PowerGlove]

So let me get this straight, its okay to languish on an average team carrying them night in and night out until you get old and then run away to a better team but wrong to do in your prime? WTF? I've seen it all.

[Sarcastic]

what is the difference between begging for a trade?

in all seriousness. lebron begged bosh to come to cleveland and he said no.

so what should he have done? why can't he get on a team that has similar talent as the Lakers? i just don't get it?

The difference is Kobe was not trying to be traded to Lebron's team, nor Wade's team. I hate Kobe, but at least he is not a coward that is trying to piggyback his way to to title.

[thejumpa]

Ginobili.....I don't know how you do it. You present common ****ing sense and people get wayy too emotional and refuse to open their eyes.

7 years....dude gave it his all and now he wants to move on. He should. They aren't winning shit in Cleveland. Call it a shortcut all you want, but I see it as an NBA player who wants to win. Now. So, if you want to discredit LeBron, then you have to descredit Bosh and Wade as well. Hell, let's discredit Pat Riley for taking advatange of opportunities and getting the best talent possibly. If it taints LeBrons legacy, then it taints everyones.

[PowerGlove]

The difference is Kobe was not trying to be traded to Lebron's team, nor Wade's team. I hate Kobe, but at least he is not a coward that is trying to piggyback his way to to title.
Yeah, he just demands trades instead of taking matters into his own hands.

[thejumpa]

So let me get this straight, its okay to languish on an average team carrying them night in and night out until you get old and then run away to a better team but wrong to do in your prime? WTF? I've seen it all.

Apparently this makes you a ring chaser, coward, and a lame in general. **** outta here. The goal is to win titles, not make a bunch of ungrateful people happy forever.

[Sarcastic]

So let me get this straight, its okay to languish on an average team carrying them night in and night out until you get old and then run away to a better team but wrong to do in your prime? WTF? I've seen it all.

No. It would have been ok if he went to Chicago, or NY, or NJ, because he wouldn't have been joining someone else's team. He would take over one of those teams. Miami is Wade's team.

[RedBlackAttack]

Ginobili.....I don't know how you do it. You present common ****ing sense and people get wayy too emotional and refuse to open their eyes.

7 years....dude gave it his all and now he wants to move on. He should. They aren't winning shit in Cleveland. Call it a shortcut all you want, but I see it as an NBA player who wants to win. Now. So, if you want to discredit LeBron, then you have to descredit Bosh and Wade as well. Hell, let's discredit Pat Riley for taking advatange of opportunities and getting the best talent possibly. If it taints LeBrons legacy, then it taints everyones.
It isn't even strictly about staying in Cleveland. By opting for that situation in Miami, LeBron's legacy will forever include questions of 'what if' regardless of how many rings they win. Could he win without Wade/Bosh?

We will never know, because LeBron wanted to make an all-star team with his friends instead of getting a little competitive spirit and trying to beat them either in Cleveland, NJ, NY, or Chicago. It was the worst possible move for his legacy.

God forbid they fail to win a title in the next two years.

[Soundwave]

I don't even buy the whole legacy tarnishing thing.

First off ... what happens if LeBron is the best player on the Heat? Very possible.

Then it becomes his team, you can chant 'Wade County' all you want, but it's not
your team if you're not the best player on the team.

People said Shaq would destroy his legacy when he left Orlando (just one year removed from the Finals at that point) to go to L.A. to further his movie career.

Well the movie career never really happened (thankfully), but he did win a bunch of titles and was the best player in the NBA at that time.

Funny how that whole "legacy" thing worked out just dandy for him.

[tpols]

No. It would have been ok if he went to Chicago, or NY, or NJ, because he wouldn't have been joining someone else's team. He would take over one of those teams. Miami is Wade's team.
/thread.

If can't understand this they're idiots...

[ginobli2311]

It isn't even strictly about staying in Cleveland. By opting for that situation in Miami, LeBron's legacy will forever include questions of 'what if' regardless of how many rings they win. Could he win without Wade/Bosh?

We will never know, because LeBron wanted to make an all-star team with his friends instead of getting a little competitive spirit and trying to beat them either in Cleveland, NJ, NY, or Chicago. It was the worst possible move for his legacy.

God forbid they fail to win a title in the next two years.

so kobe had no competitive spirit when he begged for a trade? why couldn't he just win with what he had. he had bynum and odom and fisher and the greatest coach ever. why did he need more? clearly kobe took the short cut when his team got lucky to gasol. he couldn't win without him.....he begged for more help. he threw is franchise and teammates under the bus.

how is that better? and kobe's team is more stacked than lebron's team. everyone seems to be missing the point. so what if lebron/wade will share the alpha dog title. kobe's lakers are better and more stacked than the heat. end of story.

it should not matter how a team is formed. only how good that team is. thats it. and these players should be judged on how they play the ****ing game. not on solely titles like you people constantly say.

again....the only reason people bring up kobe's "help" is because of how poorly he has played in the finals for his career. do you honestly think that its about kobe? i would be on here ****ing killing wade or lebron if they went 6-24 in a game 7 and still won.

level of play.......that is what its all about. why? because every dynasty in the history of the league has been stacked in some way or another. this potential dynasty will be no different.

and again....tap the breaks. the current lakers team is better on paper....and might get even better. so stop saying they are taking short cuts....its retarded

and i respect these guys for doing this. they know if they don't win at least 3 titles over the next 6 years they will be deemed a massive failure. hell....that number might need to be at least 4 titles. they are owning the pressure......and that makes me think much more highly of lebron and bosh and wade. i love it.

[Vragrant]

Exactly... This is a new form of ring-chasing that I thought we would never see. He has taken the easy way out and will forever be a loser as far as I'm concerned.

He just conceded that, not only could he not win without another superstar, but he couldn't win without two superstars... One of which is arguably better than him.

Pathetic. LeBron just set the NBA back.

the Big Three model is what is winning rings now. Look at the last two years. Boston, LA. Why is it okay for KG/Pierce/Allen or Kobe/Gasol, Odom/Artest/Bynum etc to team up and to destroy Lebron, yet Lebron cant play with anybody talented? I man teams dont win titles, talent does.

Lebron has seen that, and especially knows that now after 7 years. You can't do it by yourself and especially with the freight train that is the Lakers (who are still relatively young by the way), this is the best situation for him to win period.

[Mikaiel]

I don't even buy the whole legacy tarnishing thing.

First off ... what happens if LeBron is the best player on the Heat? Very possible.

Then it becomes his team, you can chant 'Wade County' all you want, but it's not
your team if you're not the best player on the team.

The Celtics were Paul Pierce's team even though KG was the best player.

[RedBlackAttack]

so kobe had no competitive spirit when he begged for a trade?

Did Kobe become a FA and choose to join a team with the second best player in the league and arguably the best PF in the game? He didn't?

Scratch that one... Next example.

[RedBlackAttack]

the Big Three model is what is winning rings now. Look at the last two years. Boston, LA. Why is it okay for KG/Pierce/Allen or Kobe/Gasol, Odom/Artest/Bynum etc to team up and to destroy Lebron, yet Lebron cant play with anybody talented? I man teams dont win titles, talent does.

Lebron has seen that, and especially knows that now after 7 years. You can't do it by yourself and especially with the freight train that is the Lakers (who are still relatively young by the way), this is the best situation for him to win period.
KG and Ray were aging veterans on the tail end of their careers. They chose to join forces only after showing that they couldn't carry their respective teams to titles on their own.

LeBron is 25 years old. Not even remotely the same situation or even comparable.

[ginobli2311]

the Big Three model is what is winning rings now. Look at the last two years. Boston, LA. Why is it okay for KG/Pierce/Allen or Kobe/Gasol, Odom/Artest/Bynum etc to team up and to destroy Lebron, yet Lebron cant play with anybody talented? I man teams dont win titles, talent does.

Lebron has seen that, and especially knows that now after 7 years. You can't do it by yourself and especially with the freight train that is the Lakers (who are still relatively young by the way), this is the best situation for him to win period.

exactly.

kobe and laker fans are just scared now because these guys finally have talent around them like the lakers have had for 11 of the last 14 years. not going to be facing weak ass teams like the nets, sixers, magic, and pacers anymore in the finals lakers fans. going to have to earn it.

no more shooting 41% for his career in the finals for kobe and winning. going to have to earn that ring against legit teams. good luck.

[tpols]

so kobe had no competitive spirit when he begged for a trade? why couldn't he just win with what he had. he had bynum and odom and fisher and the greatest coach ever. why did he need more? clearly kobe took the short cut when his team got lucky to gasol. he couldn't win without him.....he begged for more help. he threw is franchise and teammates under the bus.

how is that better? and kobe's team is more stacked than lebron's team. everyone seems to be missing the point. so what if lebron/wade will share the alpha dog title. kobe's lakers are better and more stacked than the heat. end of story.

it should not matter how a team is formed. only how good that team is. thats it. and these players should be judged on how they play the ****ing game. not on solely titles like you people constantly say.

again....the only reason people bring up kobe's "help" is because of how poorly he has played in the finals for his career. do you honestly think that its about kobe? i would be on here ****ing killing wade or lebron if they went 6-24 in a game 7 and still won.

level of play.......that is what its all about. why? because every dynasty in the history of the league has been stacked in some way or another. this potential dynasty will be no different.

and again....tap the breaks. the current lakers team is better on paper....and might get even better. so stop saying they are taking short cuts....its retarded

and i respect these guys for doing this. they know if they don't win at least 3 titles over the next 6 years they will be deemed a massive failure. hell....that number might need to be at least 4 titles. they are owning the pressure......and that makes me think much more highly of lebron and bosh and wade. i love it.
at bolded...

Guys this is why we can't argue with ginobli... He clearly lacks the basic social skills necessary to identify when someone does something dishonorable. He's just a stat whore.

[ginobli2311]

KG and Ray were aging veterans on the tail end of their careers. They chose to join forces only after showing that they couldn't carry their respective teams to titles on their own.

LeBron is 25 years old. Not even remotely the same situation or even comparable.

no one can carry a team to a title on their own. that is the inherent flaw in every one of your posts dude. are you seriously going to say KG is not capable of winning a title as the best player still? he ****ing did it in 08.

hakeem carried a team in 94 and duncan carried a team in 03. to a much lesser extent than hakeem/duncan....jordan carried his team in 97/98. and that is really it in the modern era.

so your point is flawed once again.

[ginobli2311]

at bolded...

Guys this is why we can't argue with ginobli... He clearly lacks the basic social skills necessary to identify when someone does something dishonorable. He's just a stat whore.

so would it have been dishonorable if lebron got bosh to play in cleveland?

how is it dishonorable?????....what a terrible choice of words

was it dishonorable for kobe to demand a trade and throw his team and franchise under the bus? the result is what matters. kobe got fisher/gasol and phil jackson back with a solid core including ariza and odom and bynum.

why does it matter how you get your stacked team? seriously......its beyond absurd.

[tpols]

so would it have been dishonorable if lebron got bosh to play in cleveland?

how is it dishonorable?????....what a terrible choice of words

was it dishonorable for kobe to demand a trade and throw his team and franchise under the bus? the result is what matters. kobe got fisher/gasol and phil jackson back with a solid core including ariza and odom and bynum.

why does it matter how you get your stacked team? seriously......its beyond absurd.
no.

It wouldn't have been dishonorable to join the nets, bulls, or NY because he would build his OWN legacy there instead of piggybacking on the best player in the league, as said by you for the past month, in dwayne wade...

And stop acting like it was either miami or cleveland.

He could have gone to chicago which would have been just as talented a team and he wouldn't have gotten any backlash...

[lilgodfather1]

you are rit, LeBron James is not a ring chaser he is in fact a piece of goddamned sh*t that deserves multiple career ending injuries and I hope that he never sniffs an NBA finals.

[Vragrant]

what is the difference between begging for a trade?

in all seriousness. lebron begged bosh to come to cleveland and he said no.

so what should he have done? why can't he get on a team that has similar talent as the Lakers? i just don't get it?

I honestly don't understand it man. KG/Pierce/Allen and Kobe/Gasol...Odom/Artest/Bynum etc get to play toether but Lebron can't? Is Lebron so good he is exempt from this? Lebron is so good he HAS to play w/ mediocre talent while other upper echelon players can? Its stupid.

I actually have a newfound RESPECT for Lebron. The man truly wants to win. I always said if Lebron is about winning, he'll come to Miami its his best chance. I was leery because I had a feeling he was abouts stats and image. But he's truly unselfish and willing to sacrifice to win, he knows how good these guys are. Hes seems like a real team guy.

To think he's getting slammed for this, is unreal. 1 man teams dont win titles especially with the big three model thats working now.

[RedBlackAttack]

no one can carry a team to a title on their own. that is the inherent flaw in every one of your posts dude. are you seriously going to say KG is not capable of winning a title as the best player still? he ****ing did it in 08.

hakeem carried a team in 94 and duncan carried a team in 03. to a much lesser extent than hakeem/duncan....jordan carried his team in 97/98. and that is really it in the modern era.

so your point is flawed once again.
He had several other options outside of Cleveland. If he would have chosen NY, NJ, Chicago, or the Clips, I wouldn't have liked it and I would still be heartbroken, but he would have still had a chance to build his own legacy.

He took the easiest possible path and his legacy shall reflect it. This kind of move is unprecedented in the NBA. You can continue to babble about what Kobe did or what KAJ and Magic did, but none of those situations are remotely comparable to this one.

Here is the simple fact:

LeBron James, entering his physical prime at the age of 25, chose to join a team with arguably the second best player in the NBA who is also in his prime.

Throw in arguably the best PF in the NBA also in his prime for good measure.

You keep saying that I'm wrong, but until you show me an example of a legendary figure in this league doing something remotely similar in his prime and with other great players in their prime, you aren't going to win this debate.

Just know that you are in an extreme minority. The growing consensus is that LeBron has taken the easy way out. Even the crew discussing the move after that farce (The Decision) eluded to it.

If LeBron had a goal of becoming a Top 5 all-timer, that ended tonight. It isn't because he left Cleveland (although that certainly didn't help), but because he chose Miami.

I'm done with this pointless back-and-forth.

[LA_Showtime]

Odom/Artest/Bynum... look, they're definitely good players, but to use this to back up your argument after their performances in the playoffs speaks volumes about your basketball knowledge.

[RedBlackAttack]

I honestly don't understand it man. KG/Pierce/Allen and Kobe/Gasol...Odom/Artest/Bynum etc get to play toether but Lebron can't? Is Lebron so good he is exempt from this? Lebron is so good he HAS to play w/ mediocre talent while other upper echelon players can? Its stupid.

I actually have a newfound RESPECT for Lebron. The man truly wants to win. I always said if Lebron is about winning, he'll come to Miami its his best chance. I was leery because I had a feeling he was abouts stats and image. But he's truly unselfish and willing to sacrifice to win, he knows how good these guys are. Hes seems like a real team guy.

To think he's getting slammed for this, is unreal. 1 man teams dont win titles especially with the big three model thats working now.

You are saying that Kobe and Gasol joining forces is akin to LeBron, Wade, and Bosh joining up on the same team in their primes?

KG and Ray are totally irrelevant... Aging veterans looking for a ring. That is what aging veterans do.

Barkley's message tonight was a simple one: Players that are 25 just don't do this. It is unprecedented.

[thejumpa]

It isn't even strictly about staying in Cleveland. By opting for that situation in Miami, LeBron's legacy will forever include questions of 'what if' regardless of how many rings they win. Could he win without Wade/Bosh?

We will never know, because LeBron wanted to make an all-star team with his friends instead of getting a little competitive spirit and trying to beat them either in Cleveland, NJ, NY, or Chicago. It was the worst possible move for his legacy.

God forbid they fail to win a title in the next two years.

News flash.....LeBron doesn't give a **** about his legacy being tarnished. Neither does Bosh and neither does Wade. Their legacy is fine and in some ways, just started. That's something for emotional basketball fans and ISH nerds to debate(I'm not calling you a nerd but I do think youre being emotional). They want to WIN by any means necessary. Assuming you don't have a problem with a guy, why would you turn down a chance to play with the best talent possible? You are stupid not to.

The Lakers are stacked. Boston is stacked. Miami will now be stacked. Yes, they are younger and it's never happened before, but that doesn't mean that people should hate so much. It's a better version of the current NBA championship model.

If they fail to win, they fail to win. I tell you what though....they will be in championship contention for the next 5 years. Even if they don't win in the next 2 years, they are still all in their primes or right towards the end.

[Vragrant]

Odom/Artest/Bynum... look, they're definitely good players, but to use this to back up your argument after their performances in the playoffs speaks volumes about your basketball knowledge.

That was the point, collectively the talent outside of Kobe/Gasol is outstanding. Odom starts on pretty much any NBA team and is an allstar calibre talent. Also, the Lakers kind of won the title, so I think they contributed a little.

[ginobli2311]

no.

It wouldn't have been dishonorable to join the nets, bulls, or NY because he would build his OWN legacy there instead of piggybacking on the best player in the league, as said by you for the past month, in dwayne wade...

And stop acting like it was either miami or cleveland.

He could have gone to chicago which would have been just as talented a team and he wouldn't have gotten any backlash...

ok. i do think wade is slighly better than lebron. you know that. but listen carefully. lebron is not joining a contender or even a good team. they are starting from scratch. piggybacking implies that he is joining a team that either won it all last year or was on the cusp.

you said its ok to go to chicago....yet the bulls with lebron would be far better than the heat with lebron.

so what if he's not the clear cut best player? that has not prevented many guys from building great legacies. its all about level of play. team and help are not going to be brought up if lebron goes out there and puts up 25 points 9 boards and 7 assists in the playoffs and in the finals

and if legacy is all about perception....fine. public perception changes more than the weather now. 5 years and 3 or more titles later and your "perception argument" will be irrelevant actually

[RedBlackAttack]

News flash.....LeBron doesn't give a **** about his legacy being tarnished.

I tend to disagree, but if what you say is true, then good for LeBron. Actually, I still wouldn't like it because LeBron and Wade made for a great rivalry. Just as a spectator of the sport, this kills what was once two great dueling players that always brought their 'A' game against one another.

I think it is bad for the league and I know it is bad for Bron's legacy. If he doesn't care about that and is only concerned with getting some jewelery on his fingers, kudos to him.

[ginobli2311]

He had several other options outside of Cleveland. If he would have chosen NY, NJ, Chicago, or the Clips, I wouldn't have liked it and I would still be heartbroken, but he would have still had a chance to build his own legacy.

He took the easiest possible path and his legacy shall reflect it. This kind of move is unprecedented in the NBA. You can continue to babble about what Kobe did or what KAJ and Magic did, but none of those situations are remotely comparable to this one.

Here is the simple fact:

LeBron James, entering his physical prime at the age of 25, chose to join a team with arguably the second best player in the NBA who is also in his prime.

Throw in arguably the best PF in the NBA also in his prime for good measure.

You keep saying that I'm wrong, but until you show me an example of a legendary figure in this league doing something remotely similar in his prime and with other great players in their prime, you aren't going to win this debate.

Just know that you are in an extreme minority. The growing consensus is that LeBron has taken the easy way out. Even the crew discussing the move after that farce (The Decision) eluded to it.

If LeBron had a goal of becoming a Top 5 all-timer, that ended tonight. It isn't because he left Cleveland (although that certainly didn't help), but because he chose Miami.

I'm done with this pointless back-and-forth.

i'm done as well. i'm truly sorry you lost lebron in cleveland. i just don't care how a team is formed. he did not join a contender or even a top team in the league. he joined a team with 4 players and a young coach and even with some good players his team will not be as good as the lakers.

lebron just wants to win titles. he wants to play with two of his best friends. he wants to go down as one of the best ever. what is wrong with any of that.
he tried to get bosh in cleveland. but your franchise and city aren't appealing to most nba players. that sucks but its just the truth. you have your front office to blame. they tried to win asap, they lost boozer, made bad draft picks, made bad trades, and over paid for a lot of guys.

they should have tried to build a team with a long term future. it was a miserable failure and it cost you lebron. and i really do feel bad for the city.....

[Kiarip]

ok. i do think wade is slighly better than lebron. you know that. but listen carefully. lebron is not joining a contender or even a good team. they are starting from scratch. piggybacking implies that he is joining a team that either won it all last year or was on the cusp.

you said its ok to go to chicago....yet the bulls with lebron would be far better than the heat with lebron.

so what if he's not the clear cut best player? that has not prevented many guys from building great legacies. its all about level of play. team and help are not going to be brought up if lebron goes out there and puts up 25 points 9 boards and 7 assists in the playoffs and in the finals

and if legacy is all about perception....fine. public perception changes more than the weather now. 5 years and 3 or more titles later and your "perception argument" will be irrelevant actually


I think the question is does he want to build his legacy as a player who competed against the second best player of his time, or as the player who had help from the second best player of his time to win championships.

I do think that it's the public's fault largely for over-valuing winning so much, when in reality so many stars have to align for a franchise to get to that level regardless of how good their star player actually is, but does it make it ok to team up with the players that he was expected to prove himself against?

[tpols]

ok. i do think wade is slighly better than lebron. you know that. but listen carefully. lebron is not joining a contender or even a good team. they are starting from scratch. piggybacking implies that he is joining a team that either won it all last year or was on the cusp.

you said its ok to go to chicago....yet the bulls with lebron would be far better than the heat with lebron.

so what if he's not the clear cut best player? that has not prevented many guys from building great legacies. its all about level of play. team and help are not going to be brought up if lebron goes out there and puts up 25 points 9 boards and 7 assists in the playoffs and in the finals

and if legacy is all about perception....fine. public perception changes more than the weather now. 5 years and 3 or more titles later and your "perception argument" will be irrelevant actually
So what if he's not the best player?! not even on his own team?!

Bro as you've told me a few times in our kobe debates you're not giving him enough credit. He's better than this.

[ginobli2311]

You are saying that Kobe and Gasol joining forces is akin to LeBron, Wade, and Bosh joining up on the same team in their primes?

KG and Ray are totally irrelevant... Aging veterans looking for a ring. That is what aging veterans do.

Barkley's message tonight was a simple one: Players that are 25 just don't do this. It is unprecedented.

these guys were forced to do this because their respective franchises failed them so badly.

why does howard and kobe get to play with far more talent???? its not fair to these guys. lebron/wade/bosh clearly care about winning. these guys realized that they had to take matters into their own hands because the franchises they played for were doing nothing for their chances to win titles.

its that simple. lebron showed that he cares more about winning than stats or his "legacy". and deep down we all know his legacy will be much better no matter what if he wins titles. and he wasn't winning anything in cleveland. end of story.

[Vragrant]

You are saying that Kobe and Gasol joining forces is akin to LeBron, Wade, and Bosh joining up on the same team in their primes?

KG and Ray are totally irrelevant... Aging veterans looking for a ring. That is what aging veterans do.

Barkley's message tonight was a simple one: Players that are 25 just don't do this. It is unprecedented.


No I'm not saying its an equal comparison. My point is that Lebron cant be faulted for choosing the best option when the talent is available considering what his competition is. Kobe is playing with arguably the best big man in the league (next to Howard depeding on how you look at it), and an extremely deep team around him AND they just repeated. They're also experienced and young.

Try beating that team when your second option is Mo Williams on the Cavs, a young core in Chicago with a second tier PF in Boozer, only Amare in NY with a offensive minded coach and a bad front office and the list goes on. Compare that to playing the arguably the best player in the league Wade (who I personally think is) and a top3 PF in Bosh with Riley potentially coaching. Youre chances look a lot better.

Lebron just wants to win. Hes pretty much came out and said it. I agree, this is his best chance. When would he get this opportunity again? It rare, and Its been 7 years. Lebron doesnt want to go through that again.

[bl2k8]

That was the point, collectively the talent outside of Kobe/Gasol is outstanding. Odom starts on pretty much any NBA team and is an allstar calibre talent. Also, the Lakers kind of won the title, so I think they contributed a little.
odom's never been close to an all star in his life. either way you have kobe/gasol not kobe/gasol and dwade

[ginobli2311]

So what if he's not the best player?! not even on his own team?!

Bro as you've told me a few times in our kobe debates you're not giving him enough credit. He's better than this.

look. as i said before. by doing this....lebron and wade both take themselves out of the running to go down as the GOAT. so what though? they weren't going to surpass jordan anyway. just like nobody playing currently even has a shot at that.

but both wade/lebron can go down in the top 8 ever and maybe higher depending on how many they win. again again.....its all about level of play. if they both play great and put up great numbers while winning their legacies and ranking will skyrocket.

[Go Getter]

:oldlol:

If this isn't ring chasing, then I don't know what is. Honestly... If the term 'ring-chaser' were in the dictionary, there should simply be a picture of James.
This is correct.

Lmao at this NOT being ring chasing.

If Bron was willing to take less money he could have done so in Cleveland and won there.

[JohnnyBravo5]

Nah he is chasing something else. Wade, Lebron and Bosh are kinda suspect...a lil too metrosexual.

http://images.askmen.com/galleries/men/dwyane-wade/pictures/dwyane-wade-picture-4.jpg

[ginobli2311]

odom's never been close to an all star in his life. either way you have kobe/gasol not kobe/gasol and dwade

dead wrong. lets say kobe/gasol equals wade/bosh...even though i think its selling gasol short to claim bosh is his equal

now lets look at this:
bynum/odom/fisher/artest/blake with phil jackson is better than:

lebron/chalmers/miller/min/min with spoelstra

you are seriously under-rating some of those lakers players.

[tpols]

look. as i said before. by doing this....lebron and wade both take themselves out of the running to go down as the GOAT. so what though? they weren't going to surpass jordan anyway. just like nobody playing currently even has a shot at that.

but both wade/lebron can go down in the top 8 ever and maybe higher depending on how many they win. again again.....its all about level of play. if they both play great and put up great numbers while winning their legacies and ranking will skyrocket.
Yes! Yes! You get it. That bolded statement shows that you know both lebron and wade's legacies have been hurt by this!

That's why everyone's so mad at him...

[game3524]

Winning rings won't save Lebron's legacy, it is not like the man was 30 or something, he left at 25 to piggyback with other superstars to win an championship. I never thought we would see the day when Kobe Bryant is not the villain anymore.

[thejumpa]

its that simple. lebron showed that he cares more about winning than stats or his "legacy". and deep down we all know his legacy will be much better no matter what if he wins titles. and he wasn't winning anything in cleveland. end of story.

:applause:

The funny part is that people have always criticized him for caring only about money or stats but this proves otherwise. Dude wants to win and is as competitive as any other NBA great is. Any other talk is a salty fan who doesn't want to see him win(see Dan Gilbert).

[ginobli2311]

Yes! Yes! You get it. That bolded statement shows that you know both lebron and wade's legacies have been hurt by this!

That's why everyone's so mad at him...

no no no.

listen. they are going to win at least 3 titles together...probably more. if they had stayed put....they would not have won enough to even remotely challenge any of the top 5 to begin with.

so their legacies ultimately will improve. we just totally disagree. lebron's ceiling is much higher in miami than it was in cleveland. chicago is the different story......he could have gone there and that would have potentially been his highest ceiling but also his lowest low. he would need at least 6 titles to challenge the the top 3 because of jordan.

i just don't mind the heat move. lebron's career could easily look like this.

4 titles
2 finals mvps
4 regular season mvps
2nd best PER ever
top 5 win shares per 48 minutes ever
26 points 8 boards 7 assists for his career

that would get him in the top 5 all time. and if he plays amazing and has some iconic moments or game winning shots he might crack the top 3.

no....he can't get to jordan. but nobody currently can. nobody.

[Go Getter]

no no no.

listen. they are going to win at least 3 titles together...probably more. if they had stayed put....they would not have won enough to even remotely challenge any of the top 5 to begin with.

so their legacies ultimately will improve. we just totally disagree. lebron's ceiling is much higher in miami than it was in cleveland. chicago is the different story......he could have gone there and that would have potentially been his highest ceiling but also his lowest low. he would need at least 6 titles to challenge the the top 3 because of jordan.

i just don't mind the heat move. lebron's career could easily look like this.

4 titles
2 finals mvps
4 regular season mvps
2nd best PER ever
top 5 win shares per 48 minutes ever
26 points 8 boards 7 assists for his career

that would get him in the top 5 all time. and if he plays amazing and has some iconic moments or game winning shots he might crack the top 3.

no....he can't get to jordan. but nobody currently can. nobody.

Not even the great Manu Ginobili?


Blasphemy!


:lol

[JohnnyBravo5]

I wonder who is the top or bottom? Lebron looks like a bottom to me:lol

[Kiarip]

:applause:

The funny part is that people have always criticized him for caring only about money or stats but this proves otherwise. Dude wants to win and is as competitive as any other NBA great is. Any other talk is a salty fan who doesn't want to see him win(see Dan Gilbert).

Is it being "competitive" though when you're ducking a large portion of the better competition in your conference by joining forces with them, and lightening the load on yourself by an uncharacteristic amount for a player of such magnitude?

That's what I'm doubting. Is he really COMPETITIVE? Or does he just want to win rings so that the public continues to feed his ego, and he still has a chance to catch up to Kobe, or Jordan or whoever it is he wants to chase in ring counts?

edit:



no no no.

listen. they are going to win at least 3 titles together...probably more. if they had stayed put....they would not have won enough to even remotely challenge any of the top 5 to begin with.

so their legacies ultimately will improve. we just totally disagree. lebron's ceiling is much higher in miami than it was in cleveland. chicago is the different story......he could have gone there and that would have potentially been his highest ceiling but also his lowest low. he would need at least 6 titles to challenge the the top 3 because of jordan.

i just don't mind the heat move. lebron's career could easily look like this.

4 titles
2 finals mvps
4 regular season mvps
2nd best PER ever
top 5 win shares per 48 minutes ever
26 points 8 boards 7 assists for his career

that would get him in the top 5 all time. and if he plays amazing and has some iconic moments or game winning shots he might crack the top 3.

no....he can't get to jordan. but nobody currently can. nobody.

if he stayed in cleveland and actually won he could have gotten to jordan no?

[tpols]

no no no.

listen. they are going to win at least 3 titles together...probably more. if they had stayed put....they would not have won enough to even remotely challenge any of the top 5 to begin with.

so their legacies ultimately will improve. we just totally disagree. lebron's ceiling is much higher in miami than it was in cleveland. chicago is the different story......he could have gone there and that would have potentially been his highest ceiling but also his lowest low. he would need at least 6 titles to challenge the the top 3 because of jordan.

i just don't mind the heat move. lebron's career could easily look like this.

4 titles
2 finals mvps
4 regular season mvps
2nd best PER ever
top 5 win shares per 48 minutes ever
26 points 8 boards 7 assists for his career

that would get him in the top 5 all time. and if he plays amazing and has some iconic moments or game winning shots he might crack the top 3.

no....he can't get to jordan. but nobody currently can. nobody.
lol you have them booked for three rings already? Let's see if they can even take LA this year. Your ridiculous assumptions are driving your illogical posts because you have yet to look into the possibility of them not winning or winning one where lebron possibly doesn't even get fmvp.

And you said chicago was better than miami so your argument further goes down because, according to your logic, if he can win 3 in miami, he can certainly win one or more in chicago (because theyre better) where he will DEFINITELY get fmvp...

[Bladers]

no no no.

listen. they are going to win at least 3 titles together...probably more. if they had stayed put....they would not have won enough to even remotely challenge any of the top 5 to begin with.

so their legacies ultimately will improve. we just totally disagree. lebron's ceiling is much higher in miami than it was in cleveland. chicago is the different story......he could have gone there and that would have potentially been his highest ceiling but also his lowest low. he would need at least 6 titles to challenge the the top 3 because of jordan.

i just don't mind the heat move. lebron's career could easily look like this.

4 titles
2 finals mvps
4 regular season mvps
2nd best PER ever
top 5 win shares per 48 minutes ever
26 points 8 boards 7 assists for his career

that would get him in the top 5 all time. and if he plays amazing and has some iconic moments or game winning shots he might crack the top 3.

no....he can't get to jordan. but nobody currently can. nobody.

Nice shot at Kobe there...
LoL Kobe already has 5 and might finish with 8 or 9.
meanwhile Lebron has NONE and your talking about Lebron getting 4 and cracking the top 3?
LMAO... The only one who is going to shatter the top 3 is Kobe.

[ginobli2311]

Is it being "competitive" though when you're ducking a large portion of the better competition in your conference by joining forces with them, and lightening the load on yourself by an uncharacteristic amount for a player of such magnitude?

That's what I'm doubting. Is he really COMPETITIVE? Or does he just want to win rings so that the public continues to feed his ego, and he still has a chance to catch up to Kobe, or Jordan or whoever it is he wants to chase in ring counts?

i would agree with you if the the lakers/mavericks/celtics/bulls/magic/thunder did not all exist.

the mavs are going to get a lot better in the coming days. the celtics are going to make another run. the bulls are looking very strong. the magic might add some more pieces. they thunder have a great core.

and the lakers on paper are still the best team in the league. he didn't join a title team or even a title contender. he joined a team with 4 players that is trying to build something. its far from the most stacked team in the league currently or all time.

i just don't care how a team is formed. what matter is what the actual team has and what the team is.

[ginobli2311]

Nice shot at Kobe there...
LoL Kobe already has 5 and might finish with 8 or 9.
meanwhile Lebron has NONE and your talking about Lebron getting 4 and cracking the top 3?
LMAO... The only one who is going to crack the top 3 is Kobe.:bowdown:


lol
kobe's level of play has not been good enough to crack the top 8....let alone the top 3 dude.

you can't be a career 41% shooter in the finals and have your teammates make all the big shots and plays and go down in the top 3

its not a rings race. rings matter....but level of play matters more.

[tpols]

i would agree with you if the the lakers/mavericks/celtics/bulls/magic/thunder did not all exist.

the mavs are going to get a lot better in the coming days. the celtics are going to make another run. the bulls are looking very strong. the magic might add some more pieces. they thunder have a great core.

and the lakers on paper are still the best team in the league. he didn't join a title team or even a title contender. he joined a team with 4 players that is trying to build something. its far from the most stacked team in the league currently or all time.

i just don't care how a team is formed. what matter is what the actual team has and what the team is.
lol at this dude's argument saying the current bulls or magic can compete with this heat team coming up. You go from saying they'll win a bunch of titles to saying that all these teams will challenge them. You're flip flopping everywhere to try and prove everyone wrong but its all contradictory.

[thejumpa]

Is it being "competitive" though when you're ducking a large portion of the better competition in your conference by joining forces with them, and lightening the load on yourself by an uncharacteristic amount for a player of such magnitude?

That's what I'm doubting. Is he really COMPETITIVE? Or does he just want to win rings so that the public continues to feed his ego, and he still has a chance to catch up to Kobe, or Jordan or whoever it is he wants to chase in ring counts?

Bro....this is the last time I'm posting in this thread. Too many of you are wrapped up in the whole "LeBrons legacy is ruined" thing. It's all false.

He looked pretty damn competitive when he was dominating the league for so long averaging 30/7/7 for basically 5-7 years. He looked pretty competitive when he was going crazy in the playoffs for so long. Seriously....you see how intense he plays. Anybody that plays that hard has to be competitive. There is no need to question that.

Sounds like you don't know what the term competitive means.

[ginobli2311]

lol you have them booked for three rings already? Let's see if they can even take LA this year. Your ridiculous assumptions are driving your illogical posts because you have yet to look into the possibility of them not winning or winning one where lebron possibly doesn't even get fmvp.

And you said chicago was better than miami so your argument further goes down because, according to your logic, if he can win 3 in miami, he can certainly win one or more in chicago (because theyre better) where he will DEFINITELY get fmvp...

i dont' think is unrealistic to say that the heat will win 3 titles in the next decade. if they never win......and lebron plays poorly.....of course his legacy will be tarnished. but all that means is that lebron is not as good as we think......that would have nothing to do with miami.

there are no excuses now. that is why this is so great. i would be saying the same thing for the bulls as well. i agree with you that the bulls was a better fit.....but playing for the heat will not damage lebron's legacy. losing while playing with the heat will damage his legacy. that is the factor.

he has to play well and win. just like any player that wants to go down in the top five or ten has to. its that simple. no matter what team he chose.....he has to win rings and play great. end of story. all this other stuff only becomes relevant if he loses or plays poorly.

and if he loses and plays poorly........he doesn't deserve to be mentioned with guys like kobe.

i think my stance is much more fair and realistic than your stance. you act like this has been written in stone.....i think its far from that.

[Bladers]

lol
kobe's level of play has not been good enough to crack the top 8....let alone the top 3 dude.

you can't be a career 41% shooter in the finals and have your teammates make all the big shots and plays and go down in the top 3

its not a rings race. rings matter....but level of play matters more.

But Lebron hasn't even won a Finals game? LOL.
and has played beyond terrible in every finals game.

But yet you have him booked for 4 rings and top 5.

Your logic doesn't hold water.

Kobe has 5 and is currently going for a 3-peat.
Kobe is the favorite in not only cracking, but shattering the top 3 before he retires.
and arguably Top 2 or even GOAT if he has superb performances..

[eliteballer]

The Miami Cheat are a farce and disrespect to the competitiveness of the game. They still can't matchup with us.

[tpols]

Bro....this is the last time I'm posting in this thread. Too many of you are wrapped up in the whole "LeBrons legacy is ruined" thing. It's all false.

He looked pretty damn competitive when he was dominating the league for so long averaging 30/7/7 for basically 5-7 years. He looked pretty competitive when he was going crazy in the playoffs for so long. Seriously....you see how intense he plays. Anybody that plays that hard has to be competitive. There is no need to question that.

Sounds like you don't know what the term competitive means.
holy shit man learn to read properly. He doesn't mean competitive as in how hard he plays on the court. He means Lebron should have led a team like the bulls or knicks against the heat instead of joining them.

What would a competitive person do:

Fuel a rose/lebron or lebron/amare team rivalry versus wade/bosh or cave at the possibility of being beat and just join them?

[amfirst]

Nothing is guarantee, but this team has a 99% chance of winning it all, especially with 3 superstars all in their prime teaming up. How many times have u seen that that in the history of basketball. People team up when they are old and mere bench players. This is a whole different beast, it's gonna be sick.

[ginobli2311]

lol at this dude's argument saying the current bulls or magic can compete with this heat team coming up. You go from saying they'll win a bunch of titles to saying that all these teams will challenge them. You're flip flopping everywhere to try and prove everyone wrong but its all contradictory.

what? so if the magic improve a little they can't compete? why? i said this heat team will win 3 titles in the next decade with lebron. i don't think that is going way overboard dude. thats very probable and realistic.

there are other teams in the league that can challenge them in the near future.

the lakers are better right now for starters. the celtics could give them fits if healthy and they make some moves. same for the magic and bulls.

the bulls and thunder have great cores to challenge for the next decade as well. the mavs could be deadly if they add al jefferson.

three titles is realistic.

[ginobli2311]

But Lebron hasn't even won a Finals game? LOL.
and has played beyond terrible in every finals game.

But yet you have him booked for 4 rings and top 5.

Your logic doesn't hold water.

Kobe has 5 and is currently going for a 3-peat.
Kobe is the favorite in not only cracking, but shattering the top 3 before he retires.
and arguably Top 2 or even GOAT if he has superb performances..

totally disagree about kobe. unless he starts so play much better and put up better numbers. i don't want to talk about it though.

[thejumpa]

holy shit man learn to read properly. He doesn't mean competitive as in how hard he plays on the court. He means Lebron should have led a team like the bulls or knicks against the heat instead of joining them.

What would a competitive person do:

Fuel a rose/lebron or lebron/amare team rivalry versus wade/bosh or cave at the possibility of being beat and just join them?

Yes, I'm sure that LeBron was sitting home like "Damn, I could be beat by Wade/Bosh if I go to the Bulls. **** it. I'll just join them.....yeah that's it.

These 3 guys came up with a plan to play together because the opportunity was presented to them. They obviously don't give a shit about being "competitive"(still don't understand your definition but whatever) or doing everything by themselves. All they want to do is win and win soon. Face facts.....LeBron,Wade,Bosh....they don't care as being remembered as the #1 guy or alpha dog as much as you think. They feel like they can make it work like Bostons big 3 did(and people doubted that too).

[JustSaying]

Barkley: "When you are 25, you shouldn't be piggybacking on other players"
Trying to get a ring the easy way shows how mentally-weak LeBron is. He's a great basketball player but he will never be an "NBA great".

[Poochymama]

Ginobli

Overall, I agree with you on some things, and disagree on other things.

I will say this, I do think Lebron has hurt his potential legacy, but in all probability hasn't hurt his actual legacy. What do I mean by that? Well, if Lebron had stayed with Cleveland and won 5 or six titles and maybe improved his defense a bit, he would have a legitimate case for the G.O.A.T or at the very least #2. He's very close to being as good as Jordan on the offensive front(ie a few ppg less), he's a better passer and rebounder, the only thing Jordan has over Lebron is defense,rings, and a slight offensive edge.

By going to the heat, he has basically ruined his shot at G.O.A.T or even top 2 in my opinion. It doesn't matter how many championships he wins with the heat, there will always be the question of how much was because of Lebron, and how much was because of Wade/Bosh. This would be the equivalent of Jordan teaming up with Malone and Hakeem and winning 6 championships. Ya, he would still have 6 rings, but overall those six rings would mean a lot less considering who he got them with.

While I do think he has tarnished his POTENTIAL legacy, in actuality, I think this will improve his REALISTIC legacy. By this I mean, winning several championships with the heat, questionable as his role in said championships may be, is still better than winning no championships with Cleveland. I see it kind of like a game show in which a person has $25,000 - he/she answers a question right and has two possible rewards to take: 1 - a 25% shot at $100,000, and 2 - a 100% shot at $50,000. In my eyes, Lebron just chose option 2.

One other thing I will say, and I'm sure many on here will disagree with me on, is the importance placed on number of rings when it comes to ranking players. Sure, rings do matter, but you can't just say player x is better than player y because player x has more rings, it's all about context. Sure really great players usually end up with one or two rings, but overall, rings are so much more about how good the rest of players on the team are as opposed to how good an individual player is that I'm a little confused why they seem to be a standard on here for measuring greatness. Why do we place so much value on a team stat when trying to determine individual greatness? Sure it has some value, but just not as much as we seem to give it, at least in my opinion. For example, (and no I'm not trying to hate on Kobe, I do think he is one of the best players the league has ever seen) Kobe Bryant is on the verge of surpassing Michael Jordan in the ring count. If that happens, I'm sure there will be people on here hailing him as the G.O.A.T. simply because he as more rings. This is a case where I think that too much value is given to ring count. Michael Jordan is literally better than Kobe Bryant at everything other than 3s, he puts up more points(and does it with a higher %), gets more rebounds, passes better, defends better, gets more blocks, and gets more steals. Now Kobe has been surrounded by a better team than Michael, which might allow him to win more championships, but why should having a better team factor in to who is the better individual player?

In a few more years, Derek Fisher might have more rings than Jordan, does that mean he is a better player than Jordan? No, because he is literally worse than Jordan at every aspect of the game other than 3 pt shots. Same thing with Kobe, he might end up with more rings, but just like Fisher, he is literally worse at every facet of the game than Jordan orther than 3 pt shots(sure he is closer, but the logic still applies), so why would we rank him higher?

[nashisbest]

think about the situation...

what are lebron's options:

1. stay with cleveland with no one else to sign means he will lose to one of these east teams in the playoffs - Heat, Celtics, Magic

2. Move to NYK to play with Amare - I don't believe anyone thinks they will be contenders

3. Move to Chicago - I actually think this is the best outcome cos he will still be the MAN but boozer is injury prone

4. play with Wade and Bosh to win now


at the end of the day people will remember lebron if he wins 7 or 9 rings. sure he will not be THE man on Heat but maybe being remembered as a winner is more important that being the MAN. he will not be mentioned alongside real piggbackers like fisher and horry for sure

[john_d]

notice how soundwave never came back after ginofools started posting.. alt account

[macpierce]

theyre lebron riders so arent they all the same anyways? boy can do NO WRONG:applause:

[Kiarip]

i would agree with you if the the lakers/mavericks/celtics/bulls/magic/thunder did not all exist.

the mavs are going to get a lot better in the coming days. the celtics are going to make another run. the bulls are looking very strong. the magic might add some more pieces. they thunder have a great core.

and the lakers on paper are still the best team in the league. he didn't join a title team or even a title contender. he joined a team with 4 players that is trying to build something. its far from the most stacked team in the league currently or all time.

i just don't care how a team is formed. what matter is what the actual team has and what the team is.

But individually speaking... Lebron just teamed up with the second best player in the league, and thus can no longer compete against him... what is that?

Yes I know the at kobe and shaq at some point in their careers were both in top 3 during a portion of their 3-peat, but Kobe always dreamed to play with the Lakers and when he demanded his trade from the Hornets no one really knew how long Shaq was planning to stay, and Kobe still had to develop.

Here you have the #1 player deciding straight up that he doesn't want to compete against the #2 player... he'd rather team up with him... I would understand if he had no other good team choices to go to, but the Nets were ready to build around him, the Knicks were ready to build around him, and the Bulls already had a solid core of players, and the Cavs finally got a decent coach... but with all those opportunities he goes ahead and teams up with a top3 and top10 players, there isn't even any guarantee that this heat team is better than what the bulls would have been with Lebron... there isn't...

He only cares about winning, he obviously doesn't care who he wins against, and that's my point. Is he really a true competitor, or does he just want to feed his huge ego by appeasing everyone's expectations of him to win.

[gilalizard]

The Miami Cheat are a farce and disrespect to the competitiveness of the game. They still can't matchup with us.

Seriously mate, the Lakers are pretty loaded themselves. Not as ridiculously as the Heat are now, but they're still plenty stacked.

There was a smaller version of this uproar when LA initially pickpocketed Gasol from Memphis.