Howard Stern Comments On LeBron Situation

[Soundwave]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfMH_03febM

Note there's some bad language so don't listen to it if you're at work or around kids or whatever.

Interesting take from an outside perspective.

[NiggaToast]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfMH_03febM

Note there's some bad language so don't listen to it if you're at work or around kids or whatever.

Interesting take from an outside perspective.


He shoudn't talk about basketball.... I've never heard of slave thats a multi millionaire

[Sarcastic]

Everything he said was true.

[niko]

I agree with everything he said. He's just addressing Gilbert acting like a pyscho though. Lebron shouldn't have left them publicly but that made him look stupid too.

[Soundwave]

I think Stern is actually pretty spot on ... not being a basketball fan gives him some actual perspective.

That said, I'll still admit the whole ESPN press event thing was a stupid idea. LeBron should fire Maverick Carter or whoever was the dumb ass that came up with that idea.

Beyond that though ... Stern is right. Whether the press conference was some prime time "event" or just announced ... ESPN would've covered the press conference/signing in Miami live. And the decision wouldn't have been any different either way, so really, who cares.

Cleveland fans should be mad at Gilbert for having 7-years with an incredible talent, and they couldn't ever put together a truly great team around him. If the Lakers could get Gasol, Bynum, Artest, etc. why couldn't Cleveland?

[Micku]

Concurs, but LeBron didn't have to do that public special thing. Meh tho'.

http://www.gifsoup.com/view/883922/dlc-o.gif

[Allstar24]

Howard Stern is irrelevant. I remember back in the day when he actually had a voice and opinions that mattered. Now nobody cares about him. He's just some old guy on the radio.

[Poodle]

Howard Stern is irrelevant. I remember back in the day when he actually had a voice and opinions that mattered. Now nobody cares about him. He's just some old guy on the radio.


yeah he became a lot less relevant when he moved to satellite radio.

[Soundwave]

Howard Stern is irrelevant. I remember back in the day when he actually had a voice and opinions that mattered. Now nobody cares about him. He's just some old guy on the radio.

Regardless he makes some good points.

[Yung D-Will]

Did that Lady say Melo didn't go to college?

[CLTHornets4eva]

yeah he became a lot less relevant when he moved to satellite radio.

He became more relevant in the course of history when he attracted almost 10 million people to Sirius. Nearly 2 million people listen to his show daily.

[BrentISballin]

Did that Lady say Melo didn't go to college?
Yeah lol, SMH.

[PowerGlove]

Howard Stern is irrelevant. I remember back in the day when he actually had a voice and opinions that mattered. Now nobody cares about him. He's just some old guy on the radio.

sooooo....wtf does that have to do with this? We're irrelevant, at least I'll admit I am, and people still read what I type, quote me and debate.

[Poodle]

He became more relevant in the course of history when he attracted almost 10 million people to Sirius. Nearly 2 million people listen to his show daily.


thing is 3/4's of that stuff on satellite radio are spinoffs, and he had almost all of NY listening to him, inclujding the rest of the nation on public radio.

the people who moved with him to satellite HAVE TO be a small fraction of what he had on terrestrial.

[Big One]

sooooo....wtf does that have to do with this? We're irrelevant, at least I'll admit I am, and people still read what I type, quote me and debate.

exactly my thoughts :applause: you're a solid poster dude

[CLTHornets4eva]

thing is 3/4's of that stuff on satellite radio are spinoffs, and he had almost all of NY listening to him, inclujding the rest of the nation on public radio.

the people who moved with him to satellite HAVE TO be a small fraction of what he had on terrestrial.

Doesn't matter with the money he's dragging in.

[Reverend Hoops]

Howard Stern says its "slavery" it is fine, Jesse Jackson says it and he is an idiot? :confusedshrug:

[vert48]

Howard Stern says its "slavery" it is fine, Jesse Jackson says it and he is an idiot? :confusedshrug:Nope, they are both idiots.

[strike first]

howard is spot on

[nosurrender]

he doesn't know hot he NBA works. Not worth listening

[RedBlackAttack]

I am a big Howard fan, but he has no clue what he is talking about. Sports is not his realm and he should leave sports talk to those that know a thing or two about the topic.

The fact that he said, "what's the difference" while laughing at the notion of LeBron not letting the Cavs know of his intentions earlier makes it clear just how clueless he is.

I love ya, Howard, but you couldn't sound more idiotic than you do here.

[bagelred]

Same. Huge Howard Stern fan, but he's way off base here. He's definitely out of his area of expertise.

[Dbrog]

He's right on all fronts. If you people don't agree...you need to get you head outa your ass. nm..I just realized most of you don't understand business.

[nosurrender]

He's right on all fronts. If you people don't agree...you need to get you head outa your ass. nm..I just realized most of you don't understand business.

he doesn't understand basketball. he should not be talking about lebron.

that's like a basketball analyst talking about the pros and cons of the new bill that's about to pass in congress. NO WEIGHT

[Dbrog]

he doesn't understand basketball. he should not be talking about lebron.

that's like a basketball analyst talking about the pros and cons of the new bill that's about to pass in congress. NO WEIGHT

Then all the people on ESPN should be fired.

[RedBlackAttack]

Then all the people on ESPN should be fired.
Agreed.

[nosurrender]

Then all the people on ESPN should be fired.

You gotta feel for the ESPN people. They say what's on the prompter 99% of the time out of fear of getting fired

[godofgods]

Howard Stern says its "slavery" it is fine, Jesse Jackson says it and he is an idiot? :confusedshrug:

If Jackson doesn't open his mouth for the rest of his life, he is still an idiot.

[godofgods]

Cleveland fans should be mad at Gilbert for having 7-years with an incredible talent, and they couldn't ever put together a truly great team around him. If the Lakers could get Gasol, Bynum, Artest, etc. why couldn't Cleveland?

Coz Stern (Jewcifer Stern, not the radio Stern) made those happen for the Fakers. LA is a big market team. Cleveland is not. Big difference. :no:

[Knicksfever2010]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfMH_03febM

Note there's some bad language so don't listen to it if you're at work or around kids or whatever.

Interesting take from an outside perspective.

slavery implies the player has no choice, lebron DIDNT HAVE TO play in the nba, he DIDNT HAVE TO resign a few years ago... he DIDNT HAVE TO go on espn and pull that nonsense.

if lebron simply was a man and said, "sorry mr. gilbert, I cant win here, I'm going to Miami"...

BTW, stern said lebron made gilbert tons of money, TRUE... BUT it works both ways, if there werent any nba teams for lebron to play for and show his talents, he wouldnt get nike money, other endorsements etc.... I want to see lebron become a billionaire NOT playing in the nba. I wonder how many slaves can say the same thing

[Sarcastic]

Stern is right when he says there is no cap on how much owners can make, but there is a cap on what players can make.

[keep-itreal]

this topic is partially about business and loyalty which i guess howard stern can relate to since he seems pretty angry over it in the video. You don't need to know about basketball to comment about this. What you want howard stern to say lebron's stats while talking about this? lol

[matts290]

I love how Stern and that woman are acting like they are all oblivious to the facts of the situation: "What's that guys name, Dan something" "That other guy, Bosh I think his name is" "LeBron was there for like 7 years or something like that". Give me a break.

[Sanity]

I always enjoy Howard's opinion on something. It makes me miss Artie though because he was a huge sports fan. I would love to hear what he thinks about the Lebron situation and the death of George Steinbrenner.

[Sarcastic]

@ people complaining about the slavery comment:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/literal
vs
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/figurative

[DJ Leon Smith]

Put me in the fan of Howard camp who thinks he's way off here. The whole thing about owners not having a salary cap on how much money they can make is absurd as well - the owners can also suffer a LOSS, that's the whole risk of being an owner in any business. The employees have a smaller, guaranteed amount of money coming in, the owners can potentially make a lot more but they're risking money to get it.

Would players agree to there being no salary cap where if it turns out the team loses money at the end of the season, they hand back money?

But yeah, the bottom line with the LeBron deal is it's not that he moved it's how he did it, LeBron must be laughing that so many people can't see that simple fact.

[jstern]

I love how Stern and that woman are acting like they are all oblivious to the facts of the situation: "What's that guys name, Dan something" "That other guy, Bosh I think his name is" "LeBron was there for like 7 years or something like that". Give me a break.
The world does not revolve around the NBA. I listen to Stern, I would be shocked if he knew anything about it.

[ChuckOakley]

The thing that annoys me most about Howard is not him or his stance here, it's the fact that Robin always agrees with him 100% and is a self-proclaimed expert on nearly everything. Neither new the situation well enough here to offer an informed opinion, but they are entitled to their "outsiders" perspective and much of it did make sense.

[hawkfan]

Jesse Jackson and Howard Stern are totally right.

Dan Gilbert is a joke.

And proof of that is that Gilbert made no personnel moves since the end of the season, and since LBJ has left he has done nothing. He has had different opportunities - Al Jefferson for one - to help get this team to be a 45-48 wins, but he has done nothing.

[sixerfan82]

The thing that annoys me most about Howard is not him or his stance here, it's the fact that Robin always agrees with him 100% and is a self-proclaimed expert on nearly everything. Neither new the situation well enough here to offer an informed opinion, but they are entitled to their "outsiders" perspective and much of it did make sense.

So you're annoyed that a couple of people on the radio who make upwards of 500 million together are a little arrogant? LOL

[ChuckOakley]

So you're annoyed that a couple of people on the radio who make upwards of 500 million together are a little arrogant? LOL
No, I like Howard, I'm annoyed that his sidekick doesn't really have a mind of her own. The show would be more interesting if they ever argued/debated. Instead they kiss each other's asses. Artie did it too and always agreed with Howard and Robin. A little debate would be good.. it's what makes PTI such a good show.

[ginobli2311]

its interesting to hear a non sports fan's take on this. i don't like stern....but he's dead on here. he has no horse in the race and he has no bias. he thinks its absurd because lebron had the right to anywhere he wanted....which is so true.

did lebron handle it well? nope. but at the same time.....the only reason there was "the decision" on ESPN was because all of the media and public were so hyped about this. look at how many people watched.....and its the job of tv stations and stars to give the fans what they want. and that is exactly what espn and lebron did. and lebron donated his cut to charity. LOL at the hate that he is getting for this.

and to the other point. cleveland's front office was awful for 7 ****ing years. Lebron was one of the 3 best players over the last 6 years and is already probably one of the 25 best players ever. lebron did almost everything right on the court....the cavs did almost everything wrong.

end of story. if you didn't want lebron to leave cleveland. you shouldnt have been terrible in the draft, or hired the wrong coach, or signed bad players at big contracts, and you shouldn't have booed lebron in game 5 at home.

cleveland isn't a desirable place to live either. deal with it cavs fans.

[PK3434]

Did that Lady say Melo didn't go to college?

yeah thats Robin Quivers...her and howard aren't big sports fans.

[sixerfan82]

No, I like Howard, I'm annoyed that his sidekick doesn't really have a mind of her own. The show would be more interesting if they ever argued/debated. Instead they kiss each other's asses. Artie did it too and always agreed with Howard and Robin. A little debate would be good.. it's what makes PTI such a good show.

I'm sure they argue and debate a lot more than you make it out to be. You can't judge an entire relationship from 1 conversation, can you post some radio clips?

[Simple Jack]

thing is 3/4's of that stuff on satellite radio are spinoffs, and he had almost all of NY listening to him, inclujding the rest of the nation on public radio.

the people who moved with him to satellite HAVE TO be a small fraction of what he had on terrestrial.

He got a 100 mill a year contract for 5 years. I'm sure all of this was calculated when they made it.

[Jon101]

At this point, the damage has been done. His image has taken a BIG hit and nothing anyone says can fix that. The only thing would be to go back in time and never do that 1 hr special on ESPN to tell the world that he was leaving Cleveland. The worst PR move in the history of this league. Now not only does he have this image of a heartless jerk, he is also seen as the guy who couldn't handle the pressure after 7 yrs of winning nothing and he'll never be mentioned in the same breath as MJ again.

[Simple Jack]

At this point, the damage has been done. His image has taken a BIG hit and nothing anyone says can fix that. The only thing would be to go back in time and never do that 1 hr special on ESPN to tell the world that he was leaving Cleveland. The worst PR move in the history of this league. Now not only does he have this image of a heartless jerk, he is also seen as the guy who couldn't handle the pressure after 7 yrs of winning nothing and he'll never be mentioned in the same breath as MJ again.

Again, completely based in unfounded logic.

[Shax]

He's 100% correct, Dan Gilbert is a ****ing idiot and so is anyone who agrees with his statements.

[bladefd]

I don't think people should consider Howard Stern's opinion to have more credibility than other analysts out there. He himself said that he doesn't know basketball and only can look at it from the business aspect. He had no idea that Cavs had the top record in the league for consecutive years or that they were considered the team to win the Finals for consecutive years in a row or that they were swept in 07 Finals with LeBron completely disappearing. He didn't even know Cavs won more than 60 games (somebody mentions that while talking to Stern on the phone).

As for Stern's basis of the argument, NBA is more than just a plain business entity, it is a sports business entity. Players are getting paid big bucks to go out there and do what they like to do for enjoyment/fun. It is not the same kind of business in the traditional sense like running a paper making company for example.

In order to understand Dan Gilbert's side of the argument, you have to be able to understand the passion of being a big fan/owner. I don't know if Stern watches any sports out there and/or owns a percentage of any sports team. It is a completely different kind of passion than owning and running a radio station. I understand Stern's argument but you can't just look at it ONLY from the business aspect. From only a business aspect, Gilbert obviously made a HUGE mistake with that letter but when you throw in the sports aspect and the emotion/passion behind being a huge sports fan, ONLY then can you truly not look at Gilbert's letter as a major mistake. Gilbert's letter, to me, made it seem like he is a fan before a businessman. The way he dresses and location of where he sits during the games tells a lot about what kind of person he is. He is a basketball fan before a businessman, PERIOD.

[RedBlackAttack]

I don't know if Stern watches any sports out there and/or owns a percentage of any sports team.

He doesn't. I've been an avid Stern listener for two decades. He is very open about the fact that he knows nothing about sports... Doesn't watch them, doesn't like them, doesn't know them.

He plays chess in his spare time.

Thus, he should really refrain from jumping into this particular fray, since it goes a lot deeper than he could even imagine. He doesn't understand how free agency works... He doesn't understand that, by stringing the Cavs along for weeks, it resulted in them not being a player for anyone that could have possibly helped either in a S&T or with the cap relief that they got with him off of the books.

He just doesn't understand. I still love Howard, but leave the sports talk to those that know something... Anything.

[ChuckOakley]

I'm sure they argue and debate a lot more than you make it out to be. You can't judge an entire relationship from 1 conversation, can you post some radio clips?
Recently, I have been listening almost daily for about up to an hour a day and have off and on for several years. Not gonna waste my time.. ask anybody that listens to the show regularly and they will agree.

[BRabbiT]

:lol

[junkiescumbag]

everything he said was true

[305Baller]

Stern has a good perspective.

[ginobli2311]

He doesn't. I've been an avid Stern listener for two decades. He is very open about the fact that he knows nothing about sports... Doesn't watch them, doesn't like them, doesn't know them.

He plays chess in his spare time.

Thus, he should really refrain from jumping into this particular fray, since it goes a lot deeper than he could even imagine. He doesn't understand how free agency works... He doesn't understand that, by stringing the Cavs along for weeks, it resulted in them not being a player for anyone that could have possibly helped either in a S&T or with the cap relief that they got with him off of the books.

He just doesn't understand. I still love Howard, but leave the sports talk to those that know something... Anything.

but its refreshing to get a non sports take on this. again dude.....you can have a problem with how he left but not with the fact that he left.

i know it sucks for cleveland. but all your posts are trying to imply that lebron owed cleveland something and imply that the cavs did a good job over the last 7 years. both are just not true.

lebron would have owed cleveland if they had done a good job. the cavs dropped the ball. so the cavs and fans alike have no right to complain. lebron exceeded expectations and turned a 17 win team into a perennial contender. if you don't perform......you lose the right to complain. that is why stern's take is so refreshing and accurate. its a performance driven world. lebron performed and became a great player and back to back mvp that everyone wanted. nobody wanted to play in cleveland. nobody thinks ferry did a great job.....in fact, most believe he did a terrible job. all about performance.....its what i've been preaching on here since day one. its as simple as that.

so you can be mad about how he left.......and you can be frustrated. but your anger should be towards ferry and the front office and gilbert for dropping the ball. and as a cavs fan,.......you better make peace with the fact that your city is not attractive to elite players that have options.

so sick of this whining by the cavs and cavs fans alike.

[RedBlackAttack]

but its refreshing to get a non sports take on this. again dude.....you can have a problem with how he left but not with the fact that he left.
Stopped reading right there. My posts in this thread have nothing to do with the fact that he left. Stern made it a point to say that it doesn't matter that he waited to tell the Cavs' FO and strung them along... Anyone that understands the FA market and how the first couple of weeks are the most important period knows that it DID matter that he strung the organization along and it's not just because it was a d!ck move.

Stern doesn't understand it. Hell... I doubt he even knows that there is a FA period. He probably just thinks guys can come and go as they please, any time that they want.

Bottom line: He doesn't understand the sport or how FA works, so he should refrain from commenting on it.

And stop calling me dude. Thanks.

[ginobli2311]

Stopped reading right there. My posts in this thread have nothing to do with the fact that he left. Stern made it a point to say that it doesn't matter that he waited to tell the Cavs' FO and strung them along... Anyone that understands the FA market and how the first couple of weeks are the most important period knows that it DID matter that he strung the organization along and it's not just because it was a d!ck move.

Stern doesn't understand it. Hell... I doubt he even knows that there is a FA period. He probably just thinks guys can come and go as they please, any time that they want.

Bottom line: He doesn't understand the sport or how FA works, so he should refrain from commenting on it.

And stop calling me dude. Thanks.

ok bud. but lebron is under no obligation to make his decision quickly. lebron should have let the cavs know earlier the day of the decision. but not any sooner.

not to mention that lebron tried to convince bosh to come cleveland. unless the reports of dozens of nba reporters are just completely wrong....which actually may be true.

its not his fault that every single team wanted him so badly. other teams could have signed other players before lebron. just like the knicks, heat, and bulls did.

and again. don't pretend that the cavs were going to be able to land a big time free agent. they could have gotten al jefferson........they didn't. so lets say lebron told cleveland a week before the decision. how does that impact them in terms of the basketball team they have? they have a proven track record of not making good or smart moves and no upper or middle tier free agents want to play for the cavs or in cleveland.

keep living in fantasy land cavs fans.

how about we flip this around. what did the cavs do to keep lebron? why didn't they make a big move or shakeup in the roster to entice him to stay? its not lebron's job to recruit other players. the cavs could have done a sign and trade with somebody..........cough....al jefferson.....cough. did they? nope. because their front office blows ass and they still operate under the delusion that mo williams and jamison are good enough to win a title. a big LOL.

[RedBlackAttack]

don't pretend that the cavs were going to be able to land a big time free agent.

So, every move has to be a 'big-time' move? You can't improve your team by making small additions? Or even shedding salary?

It is pretty obvious, in retrospect, that he had no desire to come back here (and, no, I don't buy for a second that the Bosh to Cleveland thing was ever serious). If he would have just been honest with the Cavs from the beginning, he wouldn't be as hated as he is today.

Howard clearly doesn't understand this. Thus, he shouldn't comment.

How about we don't 'flip it around.' How about we just both agree that Stern knows nothing about sports or how free agency works, so he shouldn't be droning on about it? I don't see why every conversation has to regress into the same back-and-forth.

This is about Stern and his lack of sports knowledge... Not about how bad the Cavaliers' organization is, as you want to detour every f#cking debate toward.

....and don't call me bud. Thanks.

[ginobli2311]

So, every move has to be a 'big-time' move? You can't improve your team by making small additions? Or even shedding salary?

It is pretty obvious, in retrospect, that he had no desire to come back here (and, no, I don't buy for a second that the Bosh to Cleveland thing was ever serious). If he would have just been honest with the Cavs from the beginning, he wouldn't be as hated as he is today.

Howard clearly doesn't understand this. Thus, he shouldn't comment.

How about we don't 'flip it around.' How about we just both agree that Stern knows nothing about sports or how free agency works, so he shouldn't be droning on about it? I don't see why every conversation has to regress into the same back-and-forth.

This is about Stern and his lack of sports knowledge... Not about how bad the Cavaliers' organization is, as you want to detour every f#cking debate toward.

....and don't call me bud. Thanks.

listen carefully. stern is accurate because he's looking at this in terms of a business. teams do not always give their players a heads up when they trade them.

should lebron have handled it better? of course. but he is under no obligation to do any of things you are talking about. so your point holds no water at all. he operated within the rules and owed nothing to the cavs. he was a "FREE AGENT"

you can hate him if you want. but he did nothing wrong. if you have a fundamental problem with his actions then you need to take a look a the current nba climate and what happens to players when they don't perform or what happens to players when they are traded.

[RedBlackAttack]

stern is accurate because he's looking at this in terms of a business.
There is a difference between employer and employee, regardless of whether you are talking about sports or business. Have you ever had a corporate job? Any job?

Try leaving without giving two weeks notice and see what kind of references you get. Why is that? So the business can make arrangements to fill your position and begin to move forward without you.

If you told your employer that you were likely staying with them and then just up and walked out one day -- and later your employer found out that it was likely in the works for some time -- they are going to be p!ssed. Try it sometime.

Even when you make this strictly a business argument, it doesn't work. But, it isn't as simple as 'just business,' because corporations can make any move any time they want and so can employees.

The NBA has rigid guidelines for a player looking to change teams. This was just unprofessional any way that you look at it.


This is the same Howard Stern, btw, who has railed against Jay Leno for 'stealing' Stuttering John without consulting him first. He has even said that, it isn't that John left, but how he did it. Yet, Stern sees no parallels, here? It is virtually the same thing.

[ginobli2311]

There is a difference between employer and employee, regardless of whether you are talking about sports or business. Have you ever had a corporate job? Any job?

Try leaving without giving two weeks notice and see what kind of references you get. Why is that? So the business can make arrangements to fill your position and begin to move forward without you.

If you told your employer that you were likely staying with them and then just up and walked out one day -- and later your employer found out that it was likely in the works for some time -- they are going to be p!ssed. Try it sometime.

Even when you make this strictly a business argument, it doesn't work. But, it isn't as simple as 'just business,' because corporations can make any move any time they want and so can employees.

The NBA has rigid guidelines for a player looking to change teams. This was just unprofessional any way that you look at it.

but again. lebron did not break any rules. so your point holds no water.

and as far as breaking your word? LOL.....you clearly don't operate in the business world....or you have been very fortunate. there is absolutely no loyalty in this world. its a me first world.

great opportunities arise out of nowhere all the time in business....and people break contracts and break their word every day to purse a great opportunity. it happens all the time.

does it make it all ok? nope. but unless someone breaks a rule. you have no recourse whatsoever. to my knowledge.....lebron did not break any rulse.

[RedBlackAttack]

but again. lebron did not break any rules. so your point holds no water.

There is no 'rule' about giving your employer two weeks notice... It is just the professional thing to do. You can leave any time you want... You may just make your employer really p!ssed and get horrible recommendations.

[ginobli2311]

There is no 'rule' about giving your employer two weeks notice... It is just the professional thing to do. You can leave any time you want... You may just make your employer really p!ssed and get horrible recommendations.

very true. but when you are as good as lebron is at your profession. the normal "rules" just don't apply. its the way of the world. its that simple. life is not fair.

[bladefd]

As much as we hate to admit it, LeBron thinks he is bigger than the nba. He acts as if his brand is larger than the game of basketball. Much of what he says in the media is put together by his PR team just like most of the other big money guys in the NBA. LeBron never really understood that you have to respect people under you, and it isn't all about you and your brand. He hasn't learned that yet and probably never will.

[sixer6ad]

Concurs, but LeBron didn't have to do that public special thing. Meh tho'.

http://www.gifsoup.com/view/883922/dlc-o.gif

Notice you have Dwayne first? That will drive LEBRON CRAZY. Enjoy the party right now and just wait. There's already been a scuffle over a picture..there's more on the way.:oldlol:

[ChuckOakley]

ok bud. but lebron is under no obligation to make his decision quickly. lebron should have let the cavs know earlier the day of the decision. but not any sooner.

not to mention that lebron tried to convince bosh to come cleveland. unless the reports of dozens of nba reporters are just completely wrong....which actually may be true.

its not his fault that every single team wanted him so badly. other teams could have signed other players before lebron. just like the knicks, heat, and bulls did.

and again. don't pretend that the cavs were going to be able to land a big time free agent. they could have gotten al jefferson........they didn't. so lets say lebron told cleveland a week before the decision. how does that impact them in terms of the basketball team they have? they have a proven track record of not making good or smart moves and no upper or middle tier free agents want to play for the cavs or in cleveland.

keep living in fantasy land cavs fans.

how about we flip this around. what did the cavs do to keep lebron? why didn't they make a big move or shakeup in the roster to entice him to stay? its not lebron's job to recruit other players. the cavs could have done a sign and trade with somebody..........cough....al jefferson.....cough. did they? nope. because their front office blows ass and they still operate under the delusion that mo williams and jamison are good enough to win a title. a big LOL.
And here is where you blew your entire argument.

James did not wake up last Thursday morning and decided, "OK, I'm gonna sign with Miami". Unless you are truly naive, it is pretty obvious that James, Wade and Bosh have had this planned out for some time.

What was wrong with that?

Well..
As Thorn pointed out (and Prokhorov predicted in documentation ahead of time) Wade and Bosh never had any intention of signing with anyone but Miami but they did the interview process with other teams to:

1. Get insider information and knowledge from these teams that they could pass on to Pat Riley

2. Get these teams to ship off assets with the false hope of landing 1 or more of the big 3.

3. Get these teams to hold off signing any other assets in the meanwhile.

LeBron was part of this too.

It was a very clever scheme that Riley, Wade, Bosh and James came up with. They clearly have made the Heat the front-runners in the East and 2nd only to LA by not only joining forces, but by crippling their competition.

[ginobli2311]

And here is where you blew your entire argument.

James did not wake up last Thursday morning and decided, "OK, I'm gonna sign with Miami". Unless you are truly naive, it is pretty obvious that James, Wade and Bosh have had this planned out for some time.

What was wrong with that?

Well..
As Thorn pointed out (and Prokhorov predicted in documentation ahead of time) Wade and Bosh never had any intention of signing with anyone but Miami but they did the interview process with other teams to:

1. Get insider information and knowledge from these teams that they could pass on to Pat Riley

2. Get these teams to ship off assets with the false hope of landing 1 or more of the big 3.

3. Get these teams to hold off signing any other assets in the meanwhile.

LeBron was part of this too.

It was a very clever scheme that Riley, Wade, Bosh and James came up with. They clearly have made the Heat the front-runners in the East and 2nd only to LA by not only joining forces, but by crippling their competition.

i agree with all of that. and so what? did they break any rules? nope. its called playing your hand well. if what you say is true.....then wade/bosh/lebron/riley are much smarter than we think and they deserve even more credit.

you can call it unethical. you can hate it. i don't care. if you don't break a rule....anything is fair game. they want to win and they were willing to do everything within the rules of free agency to get the best scenario.

is it unfair for the lakers to pay into the luxury tax so much every year while other owners and other teams simply can't do that? NOPE. they are doing as much as possible within the rules of the game to win.

like i said. i lost respect for lebron/wade/bosh. i pride myself on intergity and would have never done what lebron did. so lebron now has a worse reputation in the basketball world. so what? he may lose fans right now.....but 10 years from now if he wins a bunch of titles and averages a triple double (or close to one) one year....all will be forgotten.

and again. lebron operated within the rules laid out for him. if kobe can recover from being accused of rape....lebron can recover from leaving a small market team that failed miserably to surround him with championship talent. nobody wants to play ball in cleveland....thats pretty obvious by now.

if lebron plays well and wins.......this will all be forgotten.

[ChuckOakley]

i agree with all of that. and so what? did they break any rules? nope. its called playing your hand well. if what you say is true.....then wade/bosh/lebron/riley are much smarter than we think and they deserve even more credit.

you can call it unethical. you can hate it. i don't care. if you don't break a rule....anything is fair game. they want to win and they were willing to do everything within the rules of free agency to get the best scenario.

is it unfair for the lakers to pay into the luxury tax so much every year while other owners and other teams simply can't do that? NOPE. they are doing as much as possible within the rules of the game to win.

like i said. i lost respect for lebron/wade/bosh. i pride myself on intergity and would have never done what lebron did. so lebron now has a worse reputation in the basketball world. so what? he may lose fans right now.....but 10 years from now if he wins a bunch of titles and averages a triple double (or close to one) one year....all will be forgotten.

and again. lebron operated within the rules laid out for him. if kobe can recover from being accused of rape....lebron can recover from leaving a small market team that failed miserably to surround him with championship talent. nobody wants to play ball in cleveland....thats pretty obvious by now.

if lebron plays well and wins.......this will all be forgotten.
How could this possibly be forgotten?
This has been the biggest story in the NBA for some time.

Did anyone forget Monica Seles was stabbed, that Magic announced he had HIV, that Mark McGuire juiced?

This whole debacle is now part of Lebron's legacy for good.
Sure he can win titles, but what will that prove?
That he couldn't do it on his own, and had to join forces with others to do it. If anything that proves the "haters" right.

Trust me, this will never be forgotten, until Lebron is all but forgotten decades from now, when people never got to see him play and he is irrelevant.

[ginobli2311]

How could this possibly be forgotten?
This has been the biggest story in the NBA for some time.

Did anyone forget Monica Seles was stabbed, that Magic announced he had HIV, that Mark McGuire juiced?

This whole debacle is now part of Lebron's legacy for good.
Sure he can win titles, but what will that prove?
That he couldn't do it on his own, and had to join forces with others to do it. If anything that proves the "haters" right.

Trust me, this will never be forgotten, until Lebron is all but forgotten decades from now, when people never got to see him play and he is irrelevant.

dude. no player wins titles on his own. so that point holds absolutely no water whatsoever. the current heat team is not even the best or most stacked team in the league. so again...the help argument is just not accurate.

by forgotten....i mean nobody will ultimately care (other than cleveland) how this heat team was formed......if Lebron plays great and wins titles.

the most important thing here is that lebron plays well and wins. if he fails to do both of those things....then all of this will be much more relevant. but you need to come back to reality.

lets say lebron does this over the next 6 years:

4 titles
1 regular season mvp
2 finals mvps
27 points 9 boards 7 assists playoff averages over the 6 years.
(the above is well within reason)

do you honestly think people are going to bring up that he has a good team? nope. you are going to turn on mike and mike in the morning and they are going to be debating lebron vs. bird vs. magic.

its ultimately all about how well you play and if your team wins. winning cures almost everything. playing spectacular while winning cures every single thing.....and thats the way it should be.

[ChuckOakley]

dude. no player wins titles on his own. so that point holds absolutely no water whatsoever. the current heat team is not even the best or most stacked team in the league. so again...the help argument is just not accurate.

by forgotten....i mean nobody will ultimately care (other than cleveland) how this heat team was formed......if Lebron plays great and wins titles.

the most important thing here is that lebron plays well and wins. if he fails to do both of those things....then all of this will be much more relevant. but you need to come back to reality.

lets say lebron does this over the next 6 years:

4 titles
1 regular season mvp
2 finals mvps
27 points 9 boards 7 assists playoff averages over the 6 years.
(the above is well within reason)

do you honestly think people are going to bring up that he has a good team? nope. you are going to turn on mike and mike in the morning and they are going to be debating lebron vs. bird vs. magic.

its ultimately all about how well you play and if your team wins. winning cures almost everything. playing spectacular while winning cures every single thing.....and thats the way it should be.
I don't agree at all.
All championship teams had great players yes, but in general there was always one clear leader. Miami is Wade's team that he has led to a title already. If Miami wins titles they will still be Wade's team, Wade's title and LBJ was the Pippen, IMO.
And isn't Miami the favorite among odds makers for the East clearly and the title (maybe)?

[ginobli2311]

I don't agree at all.
All championship teams had great players yes, but in general there was always one clear leader. Miami is Wade's team that he has led to a title already. If Miami wins titles they will still be Wade's team, Wade's title and LBJ was the Pippen, IMO.
And isn't Miami the favorite among odds makers for the East clearly and the title (maybe)?

i'm sorry. but your stance is just beyond absurd. and to your point. under no circumstance will there be a clear best player/leader of this heat team.

so basically you are so narrow minded and biased that you are asserting the following.

lebron could put up better numbers. make more game winning shots and plays. win the finals mvp......but wade should still get more credit.

sorry dude. that is beyond idiotic.

[Simple Jack]

I don't agree at all.
All championship teams had great players yes, but in general there was always one clear leader. Miami is Wade's team that he has led to a title already. If Miami wins titles they will still be Wade's team, Wade's title and LBJ was the Pippen, IMO.
And isn't Miami the favorite among odds makers for the East clearly and the title (maybe)?

Who was the clear cut leader of the showtime Lakers? Who was the clear cut leader of the 60's Celtics?

Before you response with Magic and Russell consider that Kareem was the best player on the team for at least 1 of those years; not to mention Worthy won a Finals MVP. Havlicek received 1 Finals MVP (2 if they gave out the award one of those years), and was called the greatest Celtic of all-time before Larry Bird came in the league.

What about Wilt/West/Baylor?

People act as if Pippen/Jordan is the only formula of winning now. It's simply not true, and it hasn't been true in the past. No one blamed Magic for not being a clear cut leader on the Lakers for all those years. There wasn't talk of him leaving and building up another franchise "on his own" because what he was doing was just playing on a stacked team.

Consider that the majority of people will compare Kobe's 6 (if he wins next year or anytime in the future) to Jordan's 6 despite the many loopholes in that argument and you're telling me this is going to "stick" with LeBron? The only way it will stick is if people somehow decide to rank players for their decisions off the court, not their play on it.

[ChuckOakley]

i'm sorry. but your stance is just beyond absurd. and to your point. under no circumstance will there be a clear best player/leader of this heat team.

so basically you are so narrow minded and biased that you are asserting the following.

lebron could put up better numbers. make more game winning shots and plays. win the finals mvp......but wade should still get more credit.

sorry dude. that is beyond idiotic.
Lebron can do whatever. When it comes down to it, Lebron will be remembered as the player that could not win a championship as the clear leader of his team, and thus joined forces with arguably as good a player as himself on that other player's team, where that other player had already won a title, so he could win one or more as well.

[ChuckOakley]

Who was the clear cut leader of the showtime Lakers? Who was the clear cut leader of the 60's Celtics?

Before you response with Magic and Russell consider that Kareem was the best player on the team for at least 1 of those years; not to mention Worthy won a Finals MVP. Havlicek received 1 Finals MVP (2 if they gave out the award one of those years), and was called the greatest Celtic of all-time before Larry Bird came in the league.

What about Wilt/West/Baylor?

People act as if Pippen/Jordan is the only formula of winning now. It's simply not true, and it hasn't been true in the past. No one blamed Magic for not being a clear cut leader on the Lakers for all those years. There wasn't talk of him leaving and building up another franchise "on his own" because what he was doing was just playing on a stacked team.

Consider that the majority of people will compare Kobe's 6 (if he wins next year or anytime in the future) to Jordan's 6 despite the many loopholes in that argument and you're telling me this is going to "stick" with LeBron? The only way it will stick is if people somehow decide to rank players for their decisions off the court, not their play on it.
I did not watch the Celtics of the 60's.
The Laker's of the 80's were Magic's team. Whether or not he was the best player each and every season, they were Magic's team.
Miami is Wade's team.
The Bulls were Michael's team.
The Pistons were Isiah's teams.
Even the Laker's of the 2000's have become Kobe's team, because Kobe has won titles without Shaq, and stuck around the entire time. Shaq's legacy has taken a hit has well from the team hopping he has done both overall but more specifically as a Laker.


LBJ has conceded being part of the same class of players as Jordan, Magic, Bird and even Kobe. Franchise champions. And that is fine. It's not all about personal accolades. Personally, I never thought he was as mentally strong or a true champion or warrior like many made him out to be. Now others are seeing this as well, including perhaps Lebron himself.

[niko]

i'm sorry. but your stance is just beyond absurd. and to your point. under no circumstance will there be a clear best player/leader of this heat team.

so basically you are so narrow minded and biased that you are asserting the following.

lebron could put up better numbers. make more game winning shots and plays. win the finals mvp......but wade should still get more credit.

sorry dude. that is beyond idiotic.
you brought up Mike and Mike and what they would say. There viewpoint is 100% the opposite of what you are saying. absolutely 100%.

[ginobli2311]

you brought up Mike and Mike and what they would say. There viewpoint is 100% the opposite of what you are saying. absolutely 100%.

i know. and it will change. just like it did with kobe. do you remember what people were saying about kobe from 04 to 08? after the 08 finals people in the basketball world were dropping him out of the top 25 players because of his poor play.

that is exactly my point. we want to make statements like the idiot poster above talking about how lebron will always be remembered as the guy who couldn't win as the man/leader of his team. its absurd.

what if lebron does win a title as the leader of his team? then what are you going to say? do you people realize that wade is over 3 years older than lebron? do you realize wade is injury prone? what if lebron wins 3 with wade and then wins 2 without him?

i'm not trying to say that lebron will do those things. but to come on here and try to label a 25 year old player is a joke. they were doing the same thing to jordan when he was 25. people like you and others were constantly going on and on about how jordan would never win a title....how he's not even close to magic or bird. how he's just way too selfish....blah blah blah.

i was having these same debates about michael 20 years ago. and look what happened. the consensus GOAT happened. LOL. i'm not saying i feel as confident in lebron. but i'd be shocked if he doesn't win at least 4 titles for his career. and that would be enough to overcome all this crap and be ranked right there in the top 3 to 8 all time depending on how well he plays.

[ChuckOakley]

FACTs:

LBJ will not be in the same category of franchise champions as Jordan, Bird, Magic and others because he left his original franchise.

LBJ left one team, where he was the clear cut leader and best player and had one of the best teams (based upon record) because he felt they did not offer him the best chance to win.

LBJ joined forces with a fellow top 3 player and a borderline top 10 player to do something he was not able to do with his original franchise.

I have no problem with his reasoning for doing what he did. He has conceded being in an elite category in history and taken less money to win. He has shown he can be unselfish in that regard.

My only issues is in how he handled the situation. He did not wake up last Thursday and decided he was going to Miami. He know this for much much longer, and to think otherwise is naive. He did not need to lie on national TV or drag the fans or other teams through this.

The only other issue I have is not so much his own fault but then again he did allow it.. He allowed and loved the attention.. the Check My Stats Shirt, the King James nickname, the anointed place at the top of the game, The Decision special. He and his "team" had done their best to make him bigger than the game himself. And yet, someone so big has been humbled and has realized he is not bigger than the game, and may not even be bigger than Dwayne Wade. Or at least I hope he has realized this.

[Simple Jack]

FACTs:

LBJ will not be in the same category of franchise champions as Jordan, Bird, Magic and others because he left his original franchise.

LBJ left one team, where he was the clear cut leader and best player and had one of the best teams (based upon record) because he felt they did not offer him the best chance to win.

LBJ joined forces with a fellow top 3 player and a borderline top 10 player to do something he was not able to do with his original franchise.

I have no problem with his reasoning for doing what he did. He has conceded being in an elite category in history and taken less money to win. He has shown he can be unselfish in that regard.

My only issues is in how he handled the situation. He did not wake up last Thursday and decided he was going to Miami. He know this for much much longer, and to think otherwise is naive. He did not need to lie on national TV or drag the fans or other teams through this.

The only other issue I have is not so much his own fault but then again he did allow it.. He allowed and loved the attention.. the Check My Stats Shirt, the King James nickname, the anointed place at the top of the game, The Decision special. He and his "team" had done their best to make him bigger than the game himself. And yet, someone so big has been humbled and has realized he is not bigger than the game, and may not even be bigger than Dwayne Wade. Or at least I hope he has realized this.


Again, teams with this much talent have been seen before in the history of the NBA. Let me ask you, if Wade and Bosh came to Miami would you say the same thing? If not, the consider how awful of a double standard that is. Basketball is played on a court; not off of it. THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS is how they play the game, not how they approach it.

[ChuckOakley]

Again, teams with this much talent have been seen before in the history of the NBA. Let me ask you, if Wade and Bosh came to Miami would you say the same thing? If not, the consider how awful of a double standard that is. Basketball is played on a court; not off of it. THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS is how they play the game, not how they approach it.
LBJ and Wade are 2 of the 3 best players in the league, trying their hardest to beat the other 1. (Kobe)
Bosh in the grand scheme of things (all time) is a dime a dozen 2nd fiddle, who may or may not be among the 100 greatest players ever. And if teams with this much talent have been assembled before.. well that's just it they were assembled, not formed in some secret pack years ago to join forces and win. This is more like collusion.

[ginobli2311]

Again, teams with this much talent have been seen before in the history of the NBA. Let me ask you, if Wade and Bosh came to Miami would you say the same thing? If not, the consider how awful of a double standard that is. Basketball is played on a court; not off of it. THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS is how they play the game, not how they approach it.

This.

Oakley....you are all over the place with your arguments.

why can't lebron go down as good or better than magic. he might win more titles and even if he wins all of them with wade/bosh....he'll never have the caliber of teams that magic did with kareem/worthy/scott/cooper/rambis...etc with pat riley coaching.

so i ask you this. where do you rank lebron all time if he ends up with the following:

5 titles (3 with wade and 2 without wade where he is the clear leader)
3 finals mvps
4 regular season mvp
the 2nd best PER ever
top 5 all time in mvp awards shares

27 points 9 boards 7 assists in the playoffs for his career

where do you rank lebron if he retires at age 35 with 17 years in the league and the above numbers and accomplishments (which are going to be tough to achieve....but definitely within reason)?

[Take Your Lumps]

Agree with some of what he had to say but here's the thing....Lebron could have taken the higher road and avoided publicly humiliating an entire city on prime time television by taking Cleveland out of the equation.

You want to have an hour-long special? Fine. No problems there.

But when you announce it a few days in advance...along with that statement he should have said, "...I have decided [I]not to resign with the Cleveland Cavaliers, but will be announcing my decision on The Decision

[ChuckOakley]

This.

Oakley....you are all over the place with your arguments.

why can't lebron go down as good or better than magic. he might win more titles and even if he wins all of them with wade/bosh....he'll never have the caliber of teams that magic did with kareem/worthy/scott/cooper/rambis...etc with pat riley coaching.

so i ask you this. where do you rank lebron all time if he ends up with the following:

5 titles (3 with wade and 2 without wade where he is the clear leader)
3 finals mvps
4 regular season mvp
the 2nd best PER ever
top 5 all time in mvp awards shares

27 points 9 boards 7 assists in the playoffs for his career

where do you rank lebron if he retires at age 35 with 17 years in the league and the above numbers and accomplishments (which are going to be tough to achieve....but definitely within reason)?
I'm not really into rankings.
But no, he will never be regarded greater than Jordan.
No, he will not be in the same class of franchise savior as Bird, Magic, Jordan, Kobe etc.

[ginobli2311]

[QUOTE=Take Your Lumps]Agree with some of what he had to say but here's the thing....Lebron could have taken the higher road and avoided publicly humiliating an entire city on prime time television by taking Cleveland out of the equation.

You want to have an hour-long special? Fine. No problems there.

But when you announce it a few days in advance...along with that statement he should have said, "...I have decided [I]not to resign with the Cleveland Cavaliers, but will be announcing my decision on The Decision

[ChuckOakley]

This.

Oakley....you are all over the place with your arguments.

why can't lebron go down as good or better than magic. he might win more titles and even if he wins all of them with wade/bosh....he'll never have the caliber of teams that magic did with kareem/worthy/scott/cooper/rambis...etc with pat riley coaching.

so i ask you this. where do you rank lebron all time if he ends up with the following:

5 titles (3 with wade and 2 without wade where he is the clear leader)
3 finals mvps
4 regular season mvp
the 2nd best PER ever
top 5 all time in mvp awards shares

27 points 9 boards 7 assists in the playoffs for his career

where do you rank lebron if he retires at age 35 with 17 years in the league and the above numbers and accomplishments (which are going to be tough to achieve....but definitely within reason)?
BTW.. how on earth do you have almost as many posts in 3 months, as I have in 4 year?. Not to be a jerk, but maybe you need to get more outside exposure to have a more balanced view on this.

[ginobli2311]

I'm not really into rankings.
But no, he will never be regarded greater than Jordan.
No, he will not be in the same class of franchise savior as Bird, Magic, Jordan, Kobe etc.

i agree that he will never be jordan. i think that is fair to say.

but you show your bias when you say he can't be bird or magic....or even kobe (a big LOL at the one)

you are too emotional to have a legit debate with. come back on here when you are ready to put your anger aside.

[ginobli2311]

BTW.. how on earth do you have almost as many posts in 3 months, as I have in 4 year?. Not to be a jerk, but maybe you need to get more outside exposure to have a more balanced view on this.

the standard "throwing in of the towel moment"

well done sir. i run a business actually and post on here from my phone 99% of the time.

i take it that you have been thoroughly owned and you give up?

[ChuckOakley]

i agree that he will never be jordan. i think that is fair to say.

but you show your bias when you say he can't be bird or magic....or even kobe (a big LOL at the one)

you are too emotional to have a legit debate with. come back on here when you are ready to put your anger aside.
I'm too emotional?
I'd say you're obsessed based upon how much time you spend here and quantity of posts. Take a step back and think about from a non-basketball board, real world perspective. I'm thinking I have much more of that than you and have been around long enough to know how players have been judged over time by casual and more hard-core fans alike.

[ginobli2311]

I'm too emotional?
I'd say you're obsessed based upon how much time you spend here and quantity of posts. Take a step back and think about from a non-basketball board, real world perspective. I'm thinking I have much more of that than you and have been around long enough to know how players have been judged over time by casual and more hard-core fans alike.

completely disagree.

i'm done with you....i'll let someone else try to explain to you why your assertions are so flawed.

[ChuckOakley]

the standard "throwing in of the towel moment"

well done sir. i run a business actually and post on here from my phone 99% of the time.

i take it that you have been thoroughly owned and you give up?
Giving up on what?
I'd say a majority of the media agrees with me.
His reputation has taken a hit already. You are reaching for what-ifs, on how it could be repaired. I'm talking about the reality of the situation and now, and what can be expected in the future. The burden is on Lebron to repair his image and build his legacy, or you to show how he can. You're reaching for imaginary numbers that he is going to post on a team he has never played on. That sounds more like giving up to me.

[ChuckOakley]

the standard "throwing in of the towel moment"

well done sir. i run a business actually and post on here from my phone 99% of the time.

i take it that you have been thoroughly owned and you give up?
Wow, I would hate to be a customer of yours or invested in your company. It's clear you have pretty f'd up priorities and possibly morals if you would rather waste your companies resources (you) defending LBJ's potential legacy.

[ginobli2311]

Giving up on what?
I'd say a majority of the media agrees with me.
His reputation has taken a hit already. You are reaching for what-ifs, on how it could be repaired. I'm talking about the reality of the situation and now, and what can be expected in the future. The burden is on Lebron to repair his image and build his legacy, or you to show how he can. You're reaching for imaginary numbers that he is going to post on a team he has never played on. That sounds more like giving up to me.

again. completely disagree. i'm merely reminding you that lebron has at least 8 years left in his career to put up some crazy numbers and win a lot of titles.

and remind you that just as recently as 08 people were saying that kobe could never win a title as the man and that he would never crack the top 15....let alone the top 10. where are those morons now?

how about the morons that said jordan would never be magic/bird? where are they now that jordan is the consensus GOAT?

i'm merely pointing out that lebron's career isn't even half over yet and he's got a pretty damn good first 7 years in the bag.

you are the one making statements like "lebron will never go down in the same sentence as magic, bird, kobe. and that is an absurd stance to take given recent history and the potential to win a lot of rings that lebron currently has.

owned. bye.

[ChuckOakley]

again. completely disagree. i'm merely reminding you that lebron has at least 8 years left in his career to put up some crazy numbers and win a lot of titles.

and remind you that just as recently as 08 people were saying that kobe could never win a title as the man and that he would never crack the top 15....let alone the top 10. where are those morons now?

how about the morons that said jordan would never be magic/bird? where are they now that jordan is the consensus GOAT?

i'm merely pointing out that lebron's career isn't even half over yet and he's got a pretty damn good first 7 years in the bag.

you are the one making statements like "lebron will never go down in the same sentence as magic, bird, kobe. and that is an absurd stance to take given recent history and the potential to win a lot of rings that lebron currently has.

owned. bye.

Kobe (most likley), Jordan, Bird, Magic never switched teams and stuck with their teams through thick and thin.. I never said Lebron could not be considered a better player, he will never be part of that revered class of a true single franchise player.
FACT

[Simple Jack]

LBJ and Wade are 2 of the 3 best players in the league, trying their hardest to beat the other 1. (Kobe)
Bosh in the grand scheme of things (all time) is a dime a dozen 2nd fiddle, who may or may not be among the 100 greatest players ever. And if teams with this much talent have been assembled before.. well that's just it they were assembled, not formed in some secret pack years ago to join forces and win. This is more like collusion.

Why don't you understand? The only thing that matters in ranking players is what they do on the court. How they formed the team is irrelevant; the point is, it's been done before (on court talent wise) and it didn't hurt anyones legacy.

[Simple Jack]

I'm too emotional?
I'd say you're obsessed based upon how much time you spend here and quantity of posts. Take a step back and think about from a non-basketball board, real world perspective. I'm thinking I have much more of that than you and have been around long enough to know how players have been judged over time by casual and more hard-core fans alike.

I would think someone who spends more time researching the sport as well as talking about it would be more credible, wouldn't you? There's plenty of people in the real world who haven't seen Kareem play let alone consider him the GOAT. We have this forum for people who are knowledgeable on the sport, to discuss is. Commenting on someone who does just that is pathetic.

[ChuckOakley]

I would think someone who spends more time researching the sport as well as talking about it would be more credible, wouldn't you? There's plenty of people in the real world who haven't seen Kareem play let alone consider him the GOAT. We have this forum for people who are knowledgeable on the sport, to discuss is. Commenting on someone who does just that is pathetic.
No.
We're talking about the general population and general consensus.
If the public as a whole views MJ as the GOAT despite several experts who can point X,Y + Z about Bill Russell's superiority, that will not matter. The general consensus will. Already, Ginobli has shown he is the minority and is going against the public general opinion and reaction to Lebron's decision. Is he trying to sell me on what he thinks is going to happen based upon hypotheticals, and I am telling what I think is going to happen based mainly on what is happening now.

[ChuckOakley]

Why don't you understand? The only thing that matters in ranking players is what they do on the court. How they formed the team is irrelevant; the point is, it's been done before (on court talent wise) and it didn't hurt anyones legacy.
Don't understand what?
Where has this happened before, that 2 out of the 3 best players in the game, decided together they wanted to play together so they could beat the other best player?
Or even if they did not decide together, where has a clear 2 out of the top 3 players ever played together?

[Simple Jack]

Don't understand what?
Where has this happened before, that 2 out of the 3 best players in the game, decided together they wanted to play together so they could beat the other best player?
Or even if they did not decide together, where has a clear 2 out of the top 3 players ever played together?


That's the point I'm trying to make, and you can't seem to understand. HOW THEY GOT TO THE TEAM IS IRRELEVANT. All that matters, in terms of legacy, is what they do on the court. Their current situation on the court (being loaded with talent) has been seen before, plenty of times, throughout NBA history and it's never hurt someone else's legacy...why? Because people didn't judge players based on anything other than what they did on the court.

[ChuckOakley]

That's the point I'm trying to make, and you can't seem to understand. HOW THEY GOT TO THE TEAM IS IRRELEVANT. All that matters, in terms of legacy, is what they do on the court. Their current situation on the court (being loaded with talent) has been seen before, plenty of times, throughout NBA history and it's never hurt someone else's legacy...why? Because people didn't judge players based on anything other than what they did on the court.
Of course they do.

Let's look at some players who's legacy has been tarnished by things they did off the "court" or things even unrelated to their play:

McGuire - steroids
Pete Rose - gambling
Steffi Graf - Monica Seles stabbing and having no rival
Tonya Harding - Nancy Carrigan
Tiger Woods - Mistresses
etc...

Legacy is more than just how much a player has won.

It's a combination of titles/team awards, individual awards, staying with one team, having a rival, sportsmanship, off the court behavior, media perception, image, personality, etc... Lebron has already compromised some of these aspects with really only the ability to boost one.

[matts290]

The world does not revolve around the NBA. I listen to Stern, I would be shocked if he knew anything about it.

What I meant was he obviously had the basic facts of the whole situation but he kept pretending to not know shit about the NBA just to some how solidify his opinion from a "business perspective".

[G-Funk]

Coz Stern (Jewcifer Stern, not the radio Stern) made those happen for the Fakers. LA is a big market team. Cleveland is not. Big difference. :no:
Yeah that's why he's on Lebrons *******, he only promotes lebron, and is bad for the league, a casual fan probably doesn not know how cp3 looks like or that he's a top 5 player in the league. He applaud Lebron for 'The Decision' He made when he damn knows that's the worst thing he could have done to his image.

[Doo Doo_Brown]

Man I love listening to Howard but he's off base here. How is a salary cap unfair?

I am running a business and I project that I can only spend only "x amount of dollars" for my employees salaries for 2010, which is the same thing as salary cap.

Furthermore, equating it to slavery is just sensationalism. Slavery takes away your rights. Playing in the NBA is not a right, its a privilege.

[LBJ_MVP09]

He's not a basketball expert, but has many good points from someone who understands business and who is actually UNBIASED, unlike this entire board.

[Simple Jack]

No.
We're talking about the general population and general consensus.
If the public as a whole views MJ as the GOAT despite several experts who can point X,Y + Z about Bill Russell's superiority, that will not matter. The general consensus will. Already, Ginobli has shown he is the minority and is going against the public general opinion and reaction to Lebron's decision. Is he trying to sell me on what he thinks is going to happen based upon hypotheticals, and I am telling what I think is going to happen based mainly on what is happening now.

So majority opinion is "right"? I don't think you really want to take this stance.

In any event, take my Kareem example. ESPN would have you think he was just some great player who played with Magic, but we all know that's not true. He's one of the greatest players ever and while I don't agree with him being the GOAT, he has an arguable case.

You fail to realize you're assuming as well. You're assuming the majority of people will remember his decision off the basketball court more than his play on the basketball court which history has shown, seems to "cure all".

[Simple Jack]

Of course they do.

Let's look at some players who's legacy has been tarnished by things they did off the "court" or things even unrelated to their play:

McGuire - steroids
Pete Rose - gambling
Steffi Graf - Monica Seles stabbing and having no rival
Tonya Harding - Nancy Carrigan
Tiger Woods - Mistresses
etc...

Legacy is more than just how much a player has won.

It's a combination of titles/team awards, individual awards, staying with one team, having a rival, sportsmanship, off the court behavior, media perception, image, personality, etc... Lebron has already compromised some of these aspects with really only the ability to boost one.

All these things you listed are illegal.

Steroids, gambling, Stabbing, injuring another competitor, adultery...

I was going to mention (barring nothing illegal) but I figured you wouldn't bring up such examples.

Cheating would obviously hurt your legacy but what LeBron did isn't illegal, nor is it cheating in any sense of the word.


And unless you are differentiating between legacy and ranking a player on an all-time list (which you have not done so far in this thread), then you are completely off base.

[RedBlackAttack]

So majority opinion is "right"? I don't think you really want to take this stance.

In any event, take my Kareem example. ESPN would have you think he was just some great player who played with Magic, but we all know that's not true. He's one of the greatest players ever and while I don't agree with him being the GOAT, he has an arguable case.

You fail to realize you're assuming as well. You're assuming the majority of people will remember his decision off the basketball court more than his play on the basketball court which history has shown, seems to "cure all".
You don't think that his exit from Cleveland would/should be remembered? Forget all of the ridiculousness that ensued with this FA mess...

He played a major role in the team getting embarrassed by the Celtics by playing completely passive and looking disinterested in at least three of the six games.

How could that not impact his legacy? That is how he chose to leave Cleveland... With the worst series of his career. I don't think that will be forgotten, regardless of what he does in Miami.

[Simple Jack]

You don't think that his exit from Cleveland would/should be remembered? Forget all of the ridiculousness that ensued with this FA mess...

He played a major role in the team getting embarrassed by the Celtics by playing completely passive and looking disinterested in at least three of the six games.

How could that not impact his legacy? That is how he chose to leave Cleveland... With the worst series of his career. I don't think that will be forgotten, regardless of what he does in Miami.


Jordan in 89 against the Pistons...People were saying the same thing with his performance (that he "quit" and looked "uninterested").

I don't think it will be forgotten, but it won't, or rather should not, impact how people view him as a player.

[ChuckOakley]

So majority opinion is "right"? I don't think you really want to take this stance.

In any event, take my Kareem example. ESPN would have you think he was just some great player who played with Magic, but we all know that's not true. He's one of the greatest players ever and while I don't agree with him being the GOAT, he has an arguable case.

You fail to realize you're assuming as well. You're assuming the majority of people will remember his decision off the basketball court more than his play on the basketball court which history has shown, seems to "cure all".
Of course, majority is not always correct. But that's the point I was trying to make, majority opinion is generally what matters and what decides labels and rankings. Do you think Lebron or anyone would care if 10% regarded them as something such as the GOAT if 90% regarded them as something else? No, he would care about the general perception.

And of course, I am assuming, but I think less so then you are or Ginobli is who went as far to say suppose he does this and that.. then do you think?...

Already a majority of the general public probably knows more about "The Decision" then they do Lebron the player. The Decision crossed sports, interests, ages, cultures etc. Everybody had an opinion after the decision, at least a much larger portion of the population compared to before. I can tell you my officemate, a female who cares little about basketball was intrigued by it, and now has an opinion about Lebron and it's not positive. And that is what a majority of people think that now have an opinion on the matter.

So, I guess I'll ask you.. what are you trying to state exactly?
That Lebrons' potential legacy and reputation has not been affected by the decision? Or that it will and can be affected positively still?

I'm saying that not only has Lebron's reputation gone downhill because of "The Decision" (which encompasses everything, not just the 1 hour special), but that his legacy has lost much more potential, than it could have potentially gained had he played his cards differently. Again, look at how I defined legacy earlier.

[RedBlackAttack]

Jordan in 89 against the Pistons...People were saying the same thing with his performance (that he "quit" and looked "uninterested").

I don't think it will be forgotten, but it won't, or rather should not, impact how people view him as a player.
...and if Jordan had left the Bulls after that series in '89 and joined forces with two other great players, a bigger emphasis would likely be put on that Pistons' series.

That was the final impression that James left in a Cavaliers' uniform and I believe that it will be a lasting one.

[ChuckOakley]

Jordan in 89 against the Pistons...People were saying the same thing with his performance (that he "quit" and looked "uninterested").

I don't think it will be forgotten, but it won't, or rather should not, impact how people view him as a player.
Should not or will not?
Two very different things.
One is your opinion, while one will be reality.

[ChuckOakley]

All these things you listed are illegal.

Steroids, gambling, Stabbing, injuring another competitor, adultery...

I was going to mention (barring nothing illegal) but I figured you wouldn't bring up such examples.

Cheating would obviously hurt your legacy but what LeBron did isn't illegal, nor is it cheating in any sense of the word.


And unless you are differentiating between legacy and ranking a player on an all-time list (which you have not done so far in this thread), then you are completely off base.
I don't understand what you mean by that last comment.
I don't really believe or see a point in arbitrary all-time lists. A legacy is a much more real concept and encompasses much more than someone's ranking on a list.
What have I not done exactly?

[ChuckOakley]

All these things you listed are illegal.

Steroids, gambling, Stabbing, injuring another competitor, adultery...

I was going to mention (barring nothing illegal) but I figured you wouldn't bring up such examples.

Cheating would obviously hurt your legacy but what LeBron did isn't illegal, nor is it cheating in any sense of the word.


And unless you are differentiating between legacy and ranking a player on an all-time list (which you have not done so far in this thread), then you are completely off base.

Steffi had nothing to do with the stabbing
Vince Carter as overall insignificant as he has become, is still remembered by many fans for quitting on Toronto.
John Daly who could have been a great is more remembered for his drinking.
Mike Tyson is going to be remembered for his craziness, not the fact he was a great boxer.
Bjorn Borg is remembered for quitting tennis, despite the fact he has a strong case for GOAT

None of those were illegal. All have had a GOAT label described to some aspect of their game, yet a cloud looms over them that partly overshadows what they accomplished.

[Simple Jack]

Of course, majority is not always correct. But that's the point I was trying to make, majority opinion is generally what matters and what decides labels and rankings. Do you think Lebron or anyone would care if 10% regarded them as something such as the GOAT if 90% regarded them as something else? No, he would care about the general perception.

And of course, I am assuming, but I think less so then you are or Ginobli is who went as far to say suppose he does this and that.. then do you think?...

Already a majority of the general public probably knows more about "The Decision" then they do Lebron the player. The Decision crossed sports, interests, ages, cultures etc. Everybody had an opinion after the decision, at least a much larger portion of the population compared to before. I can tell you my officemate, a female who cares little about basketball was intrigued by it, and now has an opinion about Lebron and it's not positive. And that is what a majority of people think that now have an opinion on the matter.

So, I guess I'll ask you.. what are you trying to state exactly?
That Lebrons' potential legacy and reputation has not been affected by the decision? Or that it will and can be affected positively still?

I'm saying that not only has Lebron's reputation gone downhill because of "The Decision" (which encompasses everything, not just the 1 hour special), but that his legacy has lost much more potential, than it could have potentially gained had he played his cards differently. Again, look at how I defined legacy earlier.

What I'm trying to state is that in the long run, his play ON the court will be a bigger decider of his legacy than what he did OFF the court. "The Decision" and it's implications will be a mere shadow if he should win and play well in Miami.

[Simple Jack]

Steffi had nothing to do with the stabbing
Vince Carter as overall insignificant as he has become, is still remembered by many fans for quitting on Toronto.
John Daly who could have been a great is more remembered for his drinking.
Mike Tyson is going to be remembered for his craziness, not the fact he was a great boxer.
Bjorn Borg is remembered for quitting tennis, despite the fact he has a strong case for GOAT

None of those were illegal. All have had a GOAT label described to some aspect of their game, yet a cloud looms over them that partly overshadows what they accomplished.

Vince Carter is remembered for leaving Toronto because he didn't win anywhere else.

Mike Tyson is remembered for his craziness, in addition to his unbelievable talent. The consensus among boxing historians and people is that he was an unbelievable talent, though crazy in and out of the ring as well. People recognize his craziness in addition to how good of a boxer he was; not in place of it.

Borg has no case for GOAT over Federer or Sampras. What he does have, is immense respect for nearly everyone who watches Tennis for being one of the all-time greats. When Borg is mentioned now, no one mentions that he "quit" and there is a huge what-if in his name and legacy.

In any event, better examples would come from team sports, where legacy is determined by not only yourself, but the situation you are put in (teammates/franchise). Regardless, none of the people you mentioned are held to a lower standard because of what they did off the court.

[ChuckOakley]

What I'm trying to state is that in the long run, his play ON the court will be a bigger decider of his legacy than what he did OFF the court. "The Decision" and it's implications will be a mere shadow if he should win and play well in Miami.
Ok, I agree it can a bigger decider, but I think you're downplaying the possible long term repercussions of the decision, as he has already seen a major backlash in the short term. Sure people will remember Lebron, Wade, Riley, Miami etc.. but I think the 2nd thing that will come to mind for Lebron the individual will be the decision, and I don't think there will be many positive thoughts associated with it.

Again, if Legacy is all encompassing and can include such things as:

-Titles (increased chance)
-Individual accolades (decreased chance at scoring titles, MVP, Finals MVP etc.)
-Rivalry (decreased by joining 2nd biggest rival)
-Off the court decisions (decreased with the decision)
-Personality/charisma (decreased with the decision)
-Media perception (decreased with the decision)
-Loyalty to one and only organization (decreased with the decision)

So other than rings, how could he increase his legacy, or the potential that it once held?

[Simple Jack]

Should not or will not?
Two very different things.
One is your opinion, while one will be reality.


So what you are saying is that regardless of how illogical it may be, I'm going to sit here and agree with it because that's how the majority may view the situation?

And what I mean is, legacy doesn't always coincide with how great of a player you are. People still acknowledge Duncan as the GOAT PF despite terrible finals ratings and a consensus "boring" style because he has succeeded.

[ChuckOakley]

Vince Carter is remembered for leaving Toronto because he didn't win anywhere else.

Mike Tyson is remembered for his craziness, in addition to his unbelievable talent. The consensus among boxing historians and people is that he was an unbelievable talent, though crazy in and out of the ring as well. People recognize his craziness in addition to how good of a boxer he was; not in place of it.

Borg has no case for GOAT over Federer or Sampras. What he does have, is immense respect for nearly everyone who watches Tennis for being one of the all-time greats. When Borg is mentioned now, no one mentions that he "quit" and there is a huge what-if in his name and legacy.

In any event, better examples would come from team sports, where legacy is determined by not only yourself, but the situation you are put in (teammates/franchise). Regardless, none of the people you mentioned are held to a lower standard because of what they did off the court.
Vince Carter was called one of the GOAT talents in one breath and a quitter in the other.

Mike Tyson's legacy is that he is crazy. He is still around and doesn't get the respect Ali or others did, because of what he did tarnished his legacy.

Before Sampras and Federer, Borg had a case for GOAT, but was quickly denounced a quitter because he left the sport at 25 and people say McEnroe drove him out.

I would try to offer analogies to football, baseball and other team sports, but I do not really follow those. I have given you close to 10 examples all in all. I have made my point.

[Simple Jack]

Ok, I agree it can a bigger decider, but I think you're downplaying the possible long term repercussions of the decision, as he has already seen a major backlash in the short term. Sure people will remember Lebron, Wade, Riley, Miami etc.. but I think the 2nd thing that will come to mind for Lebron the individual will be the decision, and I don't think there will be many positive thoughts associated with it.

Again, if Legacy is all encompassing and can include such things as:

-Titles (increased chance)
-Individual accolades (decreased chance at scoring titles, MVP, Finals MVP etc.)
-Rivalry (decreased by joining 2nd biggest rival)
-Off the court decisions (decreased with the decision)
-Personality/charisma (decreased with the decision)
-Media perception (decreased with the decision)
-Loyalty to one and only organization (decreased with the decision)

So other than rings, how could he increase his legacy, or the potential that it once held?

Rings are enough, as we've seen in the past.

He'll go down as a better player ALL-TIME, and with a greater legacy to the game of basketball if he sets up a dynasty, or even wins a few rings on Miami, rather than retiring into obscurity on Cleveland without one.

And those things you mentioned are emotional and irrational reactions to a recent event. There was plenty of hate for Kobe after the rape trial but his play on the court, has trumped that. No casual fan is going to remember Kobe asking to be traded or hold him to a lower standard because of the rape trial.

[ChuckOakley]

Rings are enough, as we've seen in the past.

He'll go down as a better player ALL-TIME, and with a greater legacy to the game of basketball if he sets up a dynasty, or even wins a few rings on Miami, rather than retiring into obscurity on Cleveland without one.

And those things you mentioned are emotional and irrational reactions to a recent event. There was plenty of hate for Kobe after the rape trial but his play on the court, has trumped that. No casual fan is going to remember Kobe asking to be traded or hold him to a lower standard because of the rape trial.
Staying in Cleveland was but one option, and but one part of his "legacy". I'm not saying he had to stay in Cleveland or should not have gone to Miami (that was his decision), but what he did and how he did it will IMO affect his legacy for the worse. That is all.

[Simple Jack]

Vince Carter was called one of the GOAT talents in one breath and a quitter in the other.

Mike Tyson's legacy is that he is crazy. He is still around and doesn't get the respect Ali or others did, because of what he did tarnished his legacy.

Before Sampras and Federer, Borg had a case for GOAT, but was quickly denounced a quitter because he left the sport at 25 and people say McEnroe drove him out.

I would try to offer analogies to football, baseball and other team sports, but I do not really follow those. I have given you close to 10 examples all in all. I have made my point.

You think Vince Carter would be called a quitter if he had success and won on another franchise? What if he played extremely well, and went on to win a few rings; you think any of that discussion would exist to a casual fan?

In terms of Tyson you are somewhat right. Mike Tyson ended his career horribly. His actions out of the ring affected him inside of it. The death of his trainer, his domestic problems, all took a toll on him inside the ring. You think if he decisively beat Douglas, ended his career with a win (not a loss to Douglas) didn't bite Holyfield's ear, he'd still be viewed as you describe him? I'm taking it far, but to the casual fan, he's remembered as one of the best boxers ever, who was crazy.

Borg did have a case prior, but quitting is encompassed by the label "on the court". He stopped playing.

[ChuckOakley]

You think Vince Carter would be called a quitter if he had success and won on another franchise? What if he played extremely well, and went on to win a few rings; you think any of that discussion would exist to a casual fan?

In terms of Tyson you are somewhat right. Mike Tyson ended his career horribly. His actions out of the ring affected him inside of it. The death of his trainer, his domestic problems, all took a toll on him inside the ring. You think if he decisively beat Douglas, ended his career with a win (not a loss to Douglas) didn't bite Holyfield's ear, he'd still be viewed as you describe him? I'm taking it far, but to the casual fan, he's remembered as one of the best boxers ever, who was crazy.

Borg did have a case prior, but quitting is encompassed by the label "on the court". He stopped playing.
When Carter was traded to Orlando it was looking for a shot at redemption for his wasted talent and "quitting" in Toronto. Carter is not on the scale of Lebron but if he was, potentially that would have been remembered.

Borg stopped playing in his prime when he was at the top of the sport, because a man named McEnroe came along and began to beat him, and he was never able to win the US Open and only played the Australian once.

[Simple Jack]

When Carter was traded to Orlando it was looking for a shot at redemption for his wasted talent and "quitting" in Toronto. Carter is not on the scale of Lebron but if he was, potentially that would have been remembered.

Borg stopped playing in his prime when he was at the top of the sport, because a man named McEnroe came along and began to beat him, and he was never able to win the US Open and only played the Australian once.

Do you not see how Borg's decision impacted his ability to play the sport? Of course that's going to affect his legacy, he STOPPED playing.

You really think if Carter won, while being a huge part of the success, he'd still be remembered for "quitting" on Toronto?

[ginobli2311]

Ok, I agree it can a bigger decider, but I think you're downplaying the possible long term repercussions of the decision, as he has already seen a major backlash in the short term. Sure people will remember Lebron, Wade, Riley, Miami etc.. but I think the 2nd thing that will come to mind for Lebron the individual will be the decision, and I don't think there will be many positive thoughts associated with it.

Again, if Legacy is all encompassing and can include such things as:

-Titles (increased chance)
-Individual accolades (decreased chance at scoring titles, MVP, Finals MVP etc.)
-Rivalry (decreased by joining 2nd biggest rival)
-Off the court decisions (decreased with the decision)
-Personality/charisma (decreased with the decision)
-Media perception (decreased with the decision)
-Loyalty to one and only organization (decreased with the decision)

So other than rings, how could he increase his legacy, or the potential that it once held?

everything you mention is true. but look at kobe. look at the awful moments both on and off the court he's had throughout his career. how can you sit here and say that lebron can't recover from this.....while kobe has recovered from far worse on the court play (multiple times on the biggest stage and in the biggest moments) and far worse off the court actions.

it does not make any sense. you still fail to understand that simple premise of reality. if lebron doesn't win and doesn't play well.....this decision will define his career and destroy his legacy big time. if lebron does win multiple titles and does play well........the decision will not define his legacy. it will always be a part of it, but most people will begin to focus more on what lebron has done on the court....not off of it.

i just don't know how you can refute that.

[ChuckOakley]

everything you mention is true. but look at kobe. look at the awful moments both on and off the court he's had throughout his career. how can you sit here and say that lebron can't recover from this.....while kobe has recovered from far worse on the court play (multiple times on the biggest stage and in the biggest moments) and far worse off the court actions.

it does not make any sense. you still fail to understand that simple premise of reality. if lebron doesn't win and doesn't play well.....this decision will define his career and destroy his legacy big time. if lebron does win multiple titles and does play well........the decision will not define his legacy. it will always be a part of it, but most people will begin to focus more on what lebron has done on the court....not off of it.

i just don't know how you can refute that.
Kobe's not exactly batting 100.
-Forcing trade to LA straight out of high school
-Feud with Shaq and teammates
-Perceived arrogance
-Colorado incident

Trust me, Kobe would have many more fans and be more respected it weren't for those things. Kobe has more "haters" than anybody. Jordan didn't have as many, Wade doesn't have as many. Kobe has done his best to let his play overcome his past, but trust me, the guy would be much more respected, liked and put higher on the imaginary GOAT list, and an even greater legacy if not for these things.

And that's my point.. LeBron is potentially sacrificing have a much greater legacy than he could have. There are so many ways to explain the scenarios and what he has done to his legacy. The immediate backlash that he has received right now is indicative of that. And again, it's not just the decision he made, it's the way he's gone about making that decision.

Unless Miami 4-peats or more, or wins 7 titles, and/or he and/or the team sets some ridiculous records, really he will not reach the same heights as Jordan and potentially others, he will potentially not even reach the same heights of bringing just a couple titles to Cleveland or New York could have done for him.

Again, I pointed out so many ways in which he has decreased his potential legacy (which you said was true), while only increasing one (albeit a very important one), and yet the only counter is "Well, if he does this AND this AND this"... and you present me some very very lofty scenarios, I'd say those are less likely to happen, then what is more likely to happen, what could have been more likely to happen or what has happened already.

I don't see the contradiction here.
LBJ has made a sacrifice.
Winning takes sacrifice.
He took less money.
He will score less points.
He will win less individual awards.
He has sacrificed part of his legacy at the expense of the chance to win.
That is quite the sacrifice and not necessarily a bad thing, but it is what he has willingly done.

[Pinkhearts]

Kobe's not exactly batting 100.
-Forcing trade to LA straight out of high school
Pure bullshit. Hornets wanted Divac real bad. LA picked him for Divac to get Shaq and obviously worked him out and asked him about his interest to join LA. Why wouldn't he say he wants to join LA after all that?

-Feud with Shaq and teammates
Could be the reason why he is so great and is the man

-Perceived arrogance
Perceived is the key word. Besides the arrogance is nowhere as near as LBJ just demonstrated

-Colorado incident
He sexed up some white chick:confusedshrug:. Who in the NBA haven't sexed up chicks? Dwight the christian is pursuing a porn star with bible verses FFS!

ll

[Hopper15]

On any basis comparing nba players who make millions with slavery is flat out retarded.

[ChuckOakley]

ll


Sure....

http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/sports/2001/02/13/2001-02-13_kobe_s_head_fake_still_gets_.html


Bryant was still a go, as far as Nash and Calipari were concerned. Then, on draft day, Nash received a surprising phone call from Kobe's agent, Arn Tellem.

"I've got bad news," Tellem said. "This isn't going to work out."

Tellem explained that there had been a big family squabble the night before, and that Kobe wanted to move far away from his parents. New Jersey was too close.

Nash didn't buy this for a minute. Philadelphia was two hours away from the Meadowlands, providing plenty of personal space. Besides, Kobe always had a great relationship with his mother and father. Tellem agreed to double check on everything. Two hours later, he called Nash again.

"It's not going to work," Tellem said. "If you draft Kobe he's going to stand up and say, 'I'm never playing for the New Jersey Nets.'"

There was now great confusion within the Nets' decision-making ranks. Earlier in the day, Joe Taub, then the Nets' active principal owner, had told both Calipari and Nash he didn't want Bryant, unless he was a pure point guard. Taub preferred John Wallace, the scoring forward out of Syracuse.

At about 4 p.m., Kobe called Calipari directly, telling him he wouldn't play for New Jersey. The Nets could ignore his wishes, but there was great risk involved. By 6 p.m., after a few more phone calls, Nash figured it out. Bryant expected to slide down to the No. 13 pick, where he would be picked by Charlotte and traded in a prearranged deal to the Los Angeles Lakers.

Bryant had grown up a huge fan of Magic Johnson. The Lakers were his favorite team. Nash was convinced, nonetheless, that Bryant was bluffing.

Calipari vetoed any such gamble. He did not need a public-relations disaster to greet his new administration. If Bryant held out, other potential free agents might decide that New Jersey was a place to flee, not to settle.

[ginobli2311]

Kobe's not exactly batting 100.
-Forcing trade to LA straight out of high school
-Feud with Shaq and teammates
-Perceived arrogance
-Colorado incident

Trust me, Kobe would have many more fans and be more respected it weren't for those things. Kobe has more "haters" than anybody. Jordan didn't have as many, Wade doesn't have as many. Kobe has done his best to let his play overcome his past, but trust me, the guy would be much more respected, liked and put higher on the imaginary GOAT list, and an even greater legacy if not for these things.

And that's my point.. LeBron is potentially sacrificing have a much greater legacy than he could have. There are so many ways to explain the scenarios and what he has done to his legacy. The immediate backlash that he has received right now is indicative of that. And again, it's not just the decision he made, it's the way he's gone about making that decision.

Unless Miami 4-peats or more, or wins 7 titles, and/or he and/or the team sets some ridiculous records, really he will not reach the same heights as Jordan and potentially others, he will potentially not even reach the same heights of bringing just a couple titles to Cleveland or New York could have done for him.

Again, I pointed out so many ways in which he has decreased his potential legacy (which you said was true), while only increasing one (albeit a very important one), and yet the only counter is "Well, if he does this AND this AND this"... and you present me some very very lofty scenarios, I'd say those are less likely to happen, then what is more likely to happen, what could have been more likely to happen or what has happened already.

I don't see the contradiction here.
LBJ has made a sacrifice.
Winning takes sacrifice.
He took less money.
He will score less points.
He will win less individual awards.
He has sacrificed part of his legacy at the expense of the chance to win.
That is quite the sacrifice and not necessarily a bad thing, but it is what he has willingly done.

ok. we agree a lot more than you actually think. i just do not like predicting the future.

if you are talking about popularity...then i completely agree.

you say that lebron needs to win between 4 to 7 titles to overcome this and be compared to the greats. EXACTLY. so what? that is what he should have to do no matter what....even if he handled this the right way. Lebron needs to win and he needs to play great in the process.

that has been my point all along. if he does that he can catch anyone in the all time rankings not named Jordan. and again....so what about jordan. he wasn't catching him anyway. he probably lost that chance this year in the celtics series. just like kobe lost that chance by his poor play in 03, 04, 05, 06 and 08 in big moments.

jordan is damn near untouchable for anyone to challenge. so i don't think lebron really gave all that much up.

[the_chosen_1]

If you agree with Howard on this you don't understand business at all. He implies that Lebron has all the power, this is a mutually beneficial relationship and the one that supports the outlet to produce revenue (Gilbert) has the right to limit salaries to ensure a profit is made. Does your boss pay you so much that the company is losing money? Wouldn't make sense, that is why there is a salary cap and it needs to be a hard cap. Its not like Gilbert is in the business just for the pleasure of watching Lebron play.

Lebron also could have held out from Cleveland and demanded a trade or played overseas his first year. the argument claiming that the players have no power under this system is weak and without merit. The problem with the current system is the players have too much power. I don't feel sorry for owners, I just want the best product possible from all perspectives.

[ginobli2311]

If you agree with Howard on this you don't understand business at all. He implies that Lebron has all the power, this is a mutually beneficial relationship and the one that supports the outlet to produce revenue (Gilbert) has the right to limit salaries to ensure a profit is made. Does your boss pay you so much that the company is losing money? Wouldn't make sense, that is why there is a salary cap and it needs to be a hard cap. Its not like Gilbert is in the business just for the pleasure of watching Lebron play.

Lebron also could have held out from Cleveland and demanded a trade or played overseas his first year. the argument claiming that the players have no power under this system is weak and without merit. The problem with the current system is the players have too much power. I don't feel sorry for owners, I just want the best product possible from all perspectives.

well. the actual problem with the current system is that joe johnson is worth as much money as lebron james is. that is the problem. so....from a business perspective its not fair. because lebron is actually worth double whatever joe johnson is worth. a franchise could definitely still make money if they paid lebron 40 million a year. they would just have to pay other players less. is lebron worth that much? probably not. but we all know that he is worth a lot more than what joe johnson is. so lebron is not getting his fair market value based on the restrictions in the nba.

so actually from a business stand point howard is dead on. the owner are getting great deals on elite players like kobe/james/durant/wade. its the other players that are seeing the benefits actually.

[the_chosen_1]

well. the actual problem with the current system is that joe johnson is worth as much money as lebron james is. that is the problem. so....from a business perspective its not fair. because lebron is actually worth double whatever joe johnson is worth. a franchise could definitely still make money if they paid lebron 40 million a year. they would just have to pay other players less. is lebron worth that much? probably not. but we all know that he is worth a lot more than what joe johnson is. so lebron is not getting his fair market value based on the restrictions in the nba.

so actually from a business stand point howard is dead on. the owner are getting great deals on elite players like kobe/james/durant/wade. its the other players that are seeing the benefits actually.

So alter the deal let players get a percentage of jersey sales. The league is a very top heavy organization, the best players are worth way more than the next tier. Lebron understands that and that is why you could take the majority of a teams payroll but you will not be left with anyone good to play with. It a choice you have to make.

The fact remains there is no NBA if owners don't make a profit. The same way that any other business does not continue to operate in the red while giving employees more. Look at the video rental business, almost gone. Why operating costs exceed revenue. You want to watch basketball? I do!

[ginobli2311]

So alter the deal let players get a percentage of jersey sales. The league is a very top heavy organization, the best players are worth way more than the next tier. Lebron understands that and that is why you could take the majority of a teams payroll but you will not be left with anyone good to play with. It a choice you have to make.

The fact remains there is no NBA if owners don't make a profit. The same way that any other business does not continue to operate in the red while giving employees more. Look at the video rental business, almost gone. Why operating costs exceed revenue. You want to watch basketball? I do!

i totally agree. but now you are changing your argument. the simple fact is that lebron james is worth more than a max contract to a team. so the current system prohibits lebron from making his actual worth. that is what howard is saying.....and he's totally accurate.

[the_chosen_1]

i totally agree. but now you are changing your argument. the simple fact is that lebron james is worth more than a max contract to a team. so the current system prohibits lebron from making his actual worth. that is what howard is saying.....and he's totally accurate.

No I am not totally changing positions. I don't have a problem with players being compensated fairly. I just think its a business and there are a lot of teams losing money and if the league continues to operate this way it will be gone.

If you think Lebron is not being compensated fairly you are crazy. Without his exposure with the Cavs (thanks to the employment opportunity Gilbert provided)
he would not have the endorsement deals. It is a total package.

[ginobli2311]

No I am not totally changing positions. I don't have a problem with players being compensated fairly. I just think its a business and there are a lot of teams losing money and if the league continues to operate this way it will be gone.

If you think Lebron is not being compensated fairly you are crazy. Without his exposure with the Cavs (thanks to the employment opportunity Gilbert provided)
he would not have the endorsement deals. It is a total package.

i disagree. baseball has survived with the yankees and huge market teams dominating in terms of payroll. the cavs gave lebron much less exposure than the bigger markets.

the fact remains that lebron/kobe type players are worth more than the max contract. so they are not being paid their fair market value. its on the owners to run their business properly to make money.....not the players. if owners want to make more money.....they need to stop paying guys like okafor, joe johnson, elton brand....etc....max contracts.

lebron is worth more than the max. therefore the nba is not allowing lebron to make his actual worth. end of story.

[the_chosen_1]

i disagree. baseball has survived with the yankees and huge market teams dominating in terms of payroll. the cavs gave lebron much less exposure than the bigger markets.

the fact remains that lebron/kobe type players are worth more than the max contract. so they are not being paid their fair market value. its on the owners to run their business properly to make money.....not the players. if owners want to make more money.....they need to stop paying guys like okafor, joe johnson, elton brand....etc....max contracts.

lebron is worth more than the max. therefore the nba is not allowing lebron to make his actual worth. end of story.

he made not have as much exposure in Cleveland, but the fact is if he didn't play at all he wouldn't have a Nike deal, so that is a direct result of his exposure.

MLB has survived but, no one is happy but the yankees. The big difference between the two league is the money made from attendance and concessions. MLB has stadiums that are twice the size of Nba arenas or bigger. The tickets are just as much as NBA if not more, then you add in all the concessions sold from an event that last 50% longer than an NBa game or longer at times. It is really apples and oranges.

Market value is determined by what an employer will pay for the services of an employee. Supply and demand. His worth can not be determined based on what he brings to the organization. His impact can be determined this way. Again his value as an employee is separate from his salary.

A company that has many employees has scale that they pay employees within a certain category (i.e. accountants), they are not all worth the same but they will all be paid similar because they are categorized as a team that performs a function vital the company and the value placed on this function along with the need for profit has given the employees this much money to split between them. The best accountants may make a little more than the rest but not a ton more. Are they slaves? Then maybe we are all slaves to the Capitalist system. At least basketball players have an opportunity for additional income through endorsements, no one is going to give an accountant that does the majority of the work a shoe deal.

This issue needs more perspective.

[ginobli2311]

he made not have as much exposure in Cleveland, but the fact is if he didn't play at all he wouldn't have a Nike deal, so that is a direct result of his exposure.

MLB has survived but, no one is happy but the yankees. The big difference between the two league is the money made from attendance and concessions. MLB has stadiums that are twice the size of Nba arenas or bigger. The tickets are just as much as NBA if not more, then you add in all the concessions sold from an event that last 50% longer than an NBa game or longer at times. It is really apples and oranges.

Market value is determined by what an employer will pay for the services of an employee. Supply and demand. His worth can not be determined based on what he brings to the organization. His impact can be determined this way. Again his value as an employee is separate from his salary.

A company that has many employees has scale that they pay employees within a certain category (i.e. accountants), they are not all worth the same but they will all be paid similar because they are categorized as a team that performs a function vital the company and the value placed on this function along with the need for profit has given the employees this much money to split between them. The best accountants may make a little more than the rest but not a ton more. Are they slaves? Then maybe we are all slaves to the Capitalist system. At least basketball players have an opportunity for additional income through endorsements, no one is going to give an accountant that does the majority of the work a shoe deal.

This issue needs more perspective.

listen carefully. the current owners and the nba rules have created a market which consistently inflates the value of players.

any system....whether it be in business or sports that supports a market in which lebron/wade are worth the same as bosh/joe johnson is ultimately going to fail in a number of areas.

this is the main reason for the lack of competitive balance. if lebron james = joe johnson in value.....then the league is going to be way out of whack in terms of competitive balance.

why is competitive balance so important? simply because the more teams that can compete and the more fans that have "hope" of winning generates a ton more interest and support. just look at the nfl. its a great product no doubt.....but a huge part of its success is because history has shown that teams can get upset left and right and team can come out of nowhere to win the title. the nba is the exact opposite of this. why? because the marketplace is a disaster right now. you have these big contracts to guys like brand and okafor...etc.....that just kill a franchise for years. thus killing competitive balance. in a free system joe johnson would make about half as much as lebron and players would start to get paid what they are actually worth. i'm not saying to just get rid of the salary cap and let owners just go crazy. but the current system is awful. ALL MAX PLAYERS ARE NOT EQUAL. it seems the nba has failed to understand or acknowledge this fact. until they do and until they fix it. we'll have another 30 years (like the last 30) in which less than a third of the teams win a title.

i'm not well versed enough in the nba to know what else needs to be done. but its not hard to see the inherent flaw in the current system that pays joe johnson as much money as lebron james. end of story.

[ChuckOakley]

listen carefully. the current owners and the nba rules have created a market which consistently inflates the value of players.

any system....whether it be in business or sports that supports a market in which lebron/wade are worth the same as bosh/joe johnson is ultimately going to fail in a number of areas.

this is the main reason for the lack of competitive balance. if lebron james = joe johnson in value.....then the league is going to be way out of whack in terms of competitive balance.

why is competitive balance so important? simply because the more teams that can compete and the more fans that have "hope" of winning generates a ton more interest and support. just look at the nfl. its a great product no doubt.....but a huge part of its success is because history has shown that teams can get upset left and right and team can come out of nowhere to win the title. the nba is the exact opposite of this. why? because the marketplace is a disaster right now. you have these big contracts to guys like brand and okafor...etc.....that just kill a franchise for years. thus killing competitive balance. in a free system joe johnson would make about half as much as lebron and players would start to get paid what they are actually worth. i'm not saying to just get rid of the salary cap and let owners just go crazy. but the current system is awful. ALL MAX PLAYERS ARE NOT EQUAL. it seems the nba has failed to understand or acknowledge this fact. until they do and until they fix it. we'll have another 30 years (like the last 30) in which less than a third of the teams win a title.

i'm not well versed enough in the nba to know what else needs to be done. but its not hard to see the inherent flaw in the current system that pays joe johnson as much money as lebron james. end of story.

You just listed another reason why Lebron's decision potentially hurts his legacy and the NBA itself.

[the_chosen_1]

listen carefully. the current owners and the nba rules have created a market which consistently inflates the value of players.

any system....whether it be in business or sports that supports a market in which lebron/wade are worth the same as bosh/joe johnson is ultimately going to fail in a number of areas.

this is the main reason for the lack of competitive balance. if lebron james = joe johnson in value.....then the league is going to be way out of whack in terms of competitive balance.

why is competitive balance so important? simply because the more teams that can compete and the more fans that have "hope" of winning generates a ton more interest and support. just look at the nfl. its a great product no doubt.....but a huge part of its success is because history has shown that teams can get upset left and right and team can come out of nowhere to win the title. the nba is the exact opposite of this. why? because the marketplace is a disaster right now. you have these big contracts to guys like brand and okafor...etc.....that just kill a franchise for years. thus killing competitive balance. in a free system joe johnson would make about half as much as lebron and players would start to get paid what they are actually worth. i'm not saying to just get rid of the salary cap and let owners just go crazy. but the current system is awful. ALL MAX PLAYERS ARE NOT EQUAL. it seems the nba has failed to understand or acknowledge this fact. until they do and until they fix it. we'll have another 30 years (like the last 30) in which less than a third of the teams win a title.

i'm not well versed enough in the nba to know what else needs to be done. but its not hard to see the inherent flaw in the current system that pays joe johnson as much money as lebron james. end of story.

You are right that the players values are inflated, but it is across the board not just Joe Johnson. Paying players like Lebron more is not going to fix the competitive balance.

Why is the NFL so successful? Hard cap and very little guaranteed money. this goes for everybody and they understand that winning makes you a viable commodity to the marketplace. Peyton Manning does not go for the largest contract possible, he makes sure there is enough left to build a winning team. He would lose more money through endorsements by being on a bad team than he would make on his contract by demanding the max.

Again it is a total package deal. Joe Johnson may not be worth his contract but that is a bad deal on the owners behalf and a fault of the current system. Keeping the ball in the players court and crying like they are slaves is exactly the opposite of what needs to be done to fix the problem.

The NBA provides players the opportunity to make money playing basketball and the publicity to enter endeavors outside of basketball to make more.

Basketball players are paid a lot larger percentage of company revenue than employees in most fields. What do you think a petroleum engineer makes? About 100,000 to the top dogs making about 250,000, and what kind of profits and revenue do they have? They are just as important to the profitability of oil companies as basketball players are to the profitability of the NBA franchises.

[ginobli2311]

You just listed another reason why Lebron's decision potentially hurts his legacy and the NBA itself.

i totally agree. but you got it right when you said "potentially"......but at the same time. the nba, its fans, and sports media/reporters have never cared about competitive balance when judging players. did they write about how unfair it was to have kobe/shaq on the same team? nope. did they write about how unfair it was that kg/allen/pierce decided to join forces? nope. how about the showtime lakers? nope.

the current climate right now is going to change a lot in the future. i don't think most people understand that. if lebron wins and plays great. hardly anyone is going to knock him in ten years for going to a great team. you lose perspective living in the present because public opinion changes more than the weather. kobe's history is an excellent commentary on this. the same will be true with tiger if he breaks jack's record.

is it going to be easy for lebron? nope. but all he has to do is win and play well. and that is the way it should be. players should be judged on how well they play and whether or not they are winners. and nobody is going to call lebron a loser if he wins multiple titles and multiple finals mvps.

[ginobli2311]

You are right that the players values are inflated, but it is across the board not just Joe Johnson. Paying players like Lebron more is not going to fix the competitive balance.

Why is the NFL so successful? Hard cap and very little guaranteed money. this goes for everybody and they understand that winning makes you a viable commodity to the marketplace. Peyton Manning does not go for the largest contract possible, he makes sure there is enough left to build a winning team. He would lose more money through endorsements by being on a bad team than he would make on his contract by demanding the max.

Again it is a total package deal. Joe Johnson may not be worth his contract but that is a bad deal on the owners behalf and a fault of the current system. Keeping the ball in the players court and crying like they are slaves is exactly the opposite of what needs to be done to fix the problem.

The NBA provides players the opportunity to make money playing basketball and the publicity to enter endeavors outside of basketball to make more.

Basketball players are paid a lot larger percentage of company revenue than employees in most fields. What do you think a petroleum engineer makes? About 100,000 to the top dogs making about 250,000, and what kind of profits and revenue do they have? They are just as important to the profitability of oil companies as basketball players are to the profitability of the NBA franchises.


we agree on almost everything. i'm just saying that the competitive balance of the league is off because lebron = joe johnson. i know there are other examples. but this one is perfect because they both signed this year.

i also don't look at it as giving the power to the players. the system just needs to be tweaked to make sure a player is paid more closely to their actual worth in basketball. its that simple. if lebron is worth X....then a player like bosh or joe johnson needs to be worth quite a bit less than X in order for their to be competitive balance and in order for their to be a fair market place and fair market value for players.

the current system is awful. there is no parody and the nba is losing money. and no matter what changes they make, the nba will always lack parody if they put a cap on what a player makes because owners have already proven to lack the ability or restraint to not max out unworthy players. the market has to be set on value and that will never happen as long as a player's salary is capped.

i have no problem capping what a team can spend. in fact, i am for it. but capping what a player can make is a very flawed idea that ultimately kills your product.

[the_chosen_1]

i totally agree. but you got it right when you said "potentially"......but at the same time. the nba, its fans, and sports media/reporters have never cared about competitive balance when judging players. did they write about how unfair it was to have kobe/shaq on the same team? nope. did they write about how unfair it was that kg/allen/pierce decided to join forces? nope. how about the showtime lakers? nope.

the current climate right now is going to change a lot in the future. i don't think most people understand that. if lebron wins and plays great. hardly anyone is going to knock him in ten years for going to a great team. you lose perspective living in the present because public opinion changes more than the weather. kobe's history is an excellent commentary on this. the same will be true with tiger if he breaks jack's record.

is it going to be easy for lebron? nope. but all he has to do is win and play well. and that is the way it should be. players should be judged on how well they play and whether or not they are winners. and nobody is going to call lebron a loser if he wins multiple titles and multiple finals mvps.

I thought you cared about the competitive balance? You seem to endorse the imbalance as long as they win.

[ginobli2311]

I thought you cared about the competitive balance? You seem to endorse the imbalance as long as they win.

its not the job of players to create this. its better for the league.....but you can't control what happened in this sense. and actually this move by lebron does make the league more competitive because now a team can actually challenge the lakers other than boston.

thats why i get so frustrated. the lakers and celtics were so loaded compared to the rest of the league over the last three years. why is everyone just ignoring that. hell....the lakers and celtics have been way more loaded throughout nba history. that is why they have dominated so much. why is everyone forgetting this?

i don't blame lebron/wade/bosh for wanting to take a shot at history. why should that right only be reserved for the lakers/celtics and other teams lucky enough to fall into great circumstances like the spurs and bulls?

it just does not make sense.

[ChuckOakley]

its not the job of players to create this. its better for the league.....but you can't control what happened in this sense. and actually this move by lebron does make the league more competitive because now a team can actually challenge the lakers other than boston.

thats why i get so frustrated. the lakers and celtics were so loaded compared to the rest of the league over the last three years. why is everyone just ignoring that. hell....the lakers and celtics have been way more loaded throughout nba history. that is why they have dominated so much. why is everyone forgetting this?

i don't blame lebron/wade/bosh for wanting to take a shot at history. why should that right only be reserved for the lakers/celtics and other teams lucky enough to fall into great circumstances like the spurs and bulls?

it just does not make sense.
Orlando has been just as loaded and no one expected to Boston to sniff the finals up to the playoffs last year.

But now instead of teams like Denver, San Antonio and others being contenders (which they had been) they are not. Cleveland would have been a contender, now they are not. Toronto could have fielded a playoff team, now they will not be.

And again, I don't think anybody is arguing LBJ did not have the right to what he did, it's both how he went about it, and what is has done to his reputation currently, and how it could affect his legacy that people are discussing.

[ginobli2311]

Orlando has been just as loaded and no one expected to Boston to sniff the finals up to the playoffs last year.

But now instead of teams like Denver, San Antonio and others being contenders (which they had been) they are not. Cleveland would have been a contender, now they are not. Toronto could have fielded a playoff team, now they will not be.

And again, I don't think anybody is arguing LBJ did not have the right to what he did, it's both how he went about it, and what is has done to his reputation currently, and how it could affect his legacy that people are discussing.

agree to disagree about the contenders you listed. i think you are buying into a lot of hype and fool's gold marketing.

and orlando is not close to as stacked as the lakers or a healthy celtics team. but i understand why you think teams like denver/orlando are legit contenders.....i just disagree.

[the_chosen_1]

we agree on almost everything. i'm just saying that the competitive balance of the league is off because lebron = joe johnson. i know there are other examples. but this one is perfect because they both signed this year.

i also don't look at it as giving the power to the players. the system just needs to be tweaked to make sure a player is paid more closely to their actual worth in basketball. its that simple. if lebron is worth X....then a player like bosh or joe johnson needs to be worth quite a bit less than X in order for their to be competitive balance and in order for their to be a fair market place and fair market value for players.

the current system is awful. there is no parody and the nba is losing money. and no matter what changes they make, the nba will always lack parody if they put a cap on what a player makes because owners have already proven to lack the ability or restraint to not max out unworthy players. the market has to be set on value and that will never happen as long as a player's salary is capped.

i have no problem capping what a team can spend. in fact, i am for it. but capping what a player can make is a very flawed idea that ultimately kills your product.
I think we agree on the problem just not the approach to fixing it.

I think if you uncap it and try to let owners determine value it will be like the wild west. Joe Johnson will still make 20 mil and Lebron will make 45 mil. The league will be broke as owners will try to outbid each other for the top players and the next tier of players will benefit from the owners of teams that lost out on the biggest names.

The reason JJ is making so much now is because the players have the power and the owner felt that without JJ the team would be horrible and they had to have him to draw any fans. Again the supply and demand, he looks valuable because they have nothing. As long as players have control (and they will without a hard cap) the owners will pay more than a player is worth just to have something. In baseball teams like the Royals just live off of the Yankees and the taxes they pay. Selig has made sure that these teams are allowed to operate despite not trying to win.

I have to highlight the original argument that these players like Lebron are treated like slaves. This is patently false; not only are they paid a lot by the NBA they also have other employers that pay them like Nike that wouldn't give them a second look if they were not on TV playing basketball. This is not a system that is holding down the poor athlete. It is a system that has allowed a person with a single talent to become a world wide icon.

[the_chosen_1]

its not the job of players to create this. its better for the league.....but you can't control what happened in this sense. and actually this move by lebron does make the league more competitive because now a team can actually challenge the lakers other than boston.

thats why i get so frustrated. the lakers and celtics were so loaded compared to the rest of the league over the last three years. why is everyone just ignoring that. hell....the lakers and celtics have been way more loaded throughout nba history. that is why they have dominated so much. why is everyone forgetting this?

i don't blame lebron/wade/bosh for wanting to take a shot at history. why should that right only be reserved for the lakers/celtics and other teams lucky enough to fall into great circumstances like the spurs and bulls?

it just does not make sense.
Three or four viable teams does not equal competitive balance.

[Soundwave]

Competitive balance for the NBA has been an issue for decades, this is not just something that cropped up just now.

1991-92 NBA season:

13 teams under .500 (about half the league)
8 teams over .600

2009-10 NBA season:

13 teams under. 500
12 teams over .600

Actually it seems like there's more parity nowadays not less.

The Heat being a stacked team actually creates better parity too, because now the Lakers have a direct match in the East that can go toe to toe with them (it was Boston, but with them getting older ... who knows).

[ginobli2311]

Three or four viable teams does not equal competitive balance.

thats the point. that is the way the nba has always been though.

so we have a league that is losing money, there is no parity what so ever, and the market values of players is way out of whack.

hard to get much worse.

[goldenryan]

:oldlol: @ howard bitching about a salary cap.

nobody told howard the nba loses 9 figures a year? :confusedshrug: