Why Doesn't Kobe Ever Do Good in the Finals?

[Foster5k]

Just wondering.

[Batz]

20 pages book it.

[chazzy]

He gets nervous.

[Gundress]

You're a ****ing idiot. All Superstars had some bad games. Michael Jordan had some bad games, Larry Bird had some bad games, Magic Johnsond had some bag games, Wilt and Russel had some bad games, Hakeem had some bad games, Jerry West had some bad games.

WHAT THE HELL DO YOU EXPECT? A super star su[[osed to have a perfect game and never had game game?

GET THE FK OUT OF HERE! YOU ARE NOT A TRUE BASKETBALL FAN.

[Desperado]

5 titles in 7 Finals. :confusedshrug:

Must have done good in 5 of 7......

[Lebron23]

Who cares?

A Finals MVP is a Finals MVP.

[Bladers]

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s52/whydowe_fall/GIFS/orig-9364921.jpg

[B-Low]

WHAT THE HELL DO YOU EXPECT? A super star su[[osed to have a perfect game and never had game game?

Awwww snap see ya'll got Gundress so mad that he started typing like...Gundress :eek:

[MayCeltics]

Wow, you don't what you've started. Kobe got an army patrolling the internets.


Cause Kobe sucks, Bring it :violin:

[Lakers13]

Why hasn't your favorite player ever won a Finals game yet?

[TryToBeUnbias]

He gets nervous.
basically. He gets over anxious I think he wants to have one of those legendary games like the other greats before him but he forces the issue to much, rather than just letting the game come to him. He played much better second half of game seven when he ran the offense it opened up lanes for him and allowed him to go single coverage a few times. If he'd had done that from the get go he would of had a better game.

[Fatal9]

He has faced the best defense in the finals 4 times in a row I think now, two of them were historically great and in contention for best defensive teams ever (he had a good series vs. Magic btw). Might want to check even MJ's stats vs. #1 ranked defenses in the 90s, they're not pretty.

[TryToBeUnbias]

He has faced the best defense in the finals 4 times in a row I think now, two of them were historically great and in contention for best defensive teams ever (he had a good series vs. Magic btw). Might want to check even MJ's stats vs. #1 ranked defenses in the 90s, they're not pretty.
yeah he is facing top notch defense as well I think its a combination of what I mentioned and the elite level of defense he faces. You cant force it when the team you play is that good defensively.

[Gundress]

Awwww snap see ya'll got Gundress so mad that he started typing like...Gundress :eek:


I ltak him like he's an idiot....he's on my level.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Philly was a top 5 defensive team in 2001 as well and he did have a good(not great series) and he was better in the 4 wins after the game 1 loss when he was terrible. He played very well vs the Nets in 2002 and they had the number 1 ranked defense.

He didn't play well in the 2000 or 2004 finals, but the 2000 Kobe wasn't the superstar version we're use to and while I'm not excusing his selfish play in 2004, there were a lot of distractions. He played below his standards in 2008, but he didn't get much help either. Again he was good in 2009 vs the number 1 ranked defensive team, had an excellent game 1, wouldn't call it a great series by his standard, but still solid. Shot poorly this year, but played good defense, had several good shooting games and was clearly the best player in the series, and of course, they won.

As Fatal mentioned the 2004 Pistons and 2008 Celtics are all time great defensive teams. The 2004 Pistons after the Rasheed Wallace trade have a good argument for GOAT defensive team.

[kauaihawaii]

He doesn't feel charitable.
He knows he's already on Santa's naughty list.
He wasn't ordered by the court. He already has enough community service hours to put down as a significant mention on his college application.

[ginobli2311]

kobe does not play poorly in the finals. he plays poorly based on superstar standards. there is a huge difference.

the reasons he plays poorly for superstar standards are the quality of defenses in the finals and kobe's proclivity to try to do way too much on the big stage.

he's been far from terrible and he still has won 5 titles in 7 trips.

[imnew09]

Kobe only sucked in the two finals against Boston...
the rest, he did well.
wtf are u guys talking about.

[ginobli2311]

Kobe only sucked in the two finals against Boston...
the rest, he did well.
wtf are u guys talking about.

nah. he was awful against the pistons in 04. his career averages are pretty bad for superstar standards across the board as well.

he's played much worse than he normally does in the finals.

[dr8ked]

Kobe only sucked in the two finals against Boston...
the rest, he did well.
wtf are u guys talking about.


:no: :no: Against orlando he was shooting 43% FG. Compared to other Superstars perfomances in the finals.. This is bad.

[GiveItToBurrito]

Elite defensive teams tend to make the finals and play against him. He's great, but he's not a freakish player like a Tony Parker or a Dwight Howard or a Dwyane Wade where other teams might not have someone who will be able to match up with him, too, which hurts him.

[GiveItToBurrito]

:no: :no: Against orlando he was shooting 43% FG. Compared to other Superstars perfomances in the finals.. This is bad.

And the Pistons series.

[ginobli2311]

Elite defensive teams tend to make the finals and play against him. He's great, but he's not a freakish player like a Tony Parker or a Dwight Howard or a Dwyane Wade where other teams might not have someone who will be able to match up with him, too, which hurts him.

i thought his overall play against orlando was quite good actually. he just struggled in crunch time in that series. but his play was pretty damn good against orlando.

[TryToBeUnbias]

:no: :no: Against orlando he was shooting 43% FG. Compared to other Superstars perfomances in the finals.. This is bad.
kobes FG% doesn't really demonstrate how well he shot in that series.

[dr8ked]

kobes FG% doesn't really demonstrate how well he shot in that series.


FG% doesn't lie. I'm not knocking his game, he played good in the series and he deserved the MVP. But don't knock FG%.. it's accurate.

[ginobli2311]

FG% doesn't lie. I'm not knocking his game, he played good in the series and he deserved the MVP. But don't knock FG%.. it's accurate.

but what is wrong with 43% against a good orlando defense in a series the lakers won in 5?

[tpols]

but what is wrong with 43% against a good orlando defense in a series the lakers won in 5?
well everyone knocks his boston series where he only shot 2% less on a better defense:confusedshrug:

[ginobli2311]

well everyone knocks his boston series where he only shot 2% less on a better defense:confusedshrug:

nah. its because his 4th qtr play was terrible and he came up small in crunch time and he came up small in game 7 and he took awful shots.

fg% was actually a small reason for me. as i have maintained.

[TryToBeUnbias]

FG% doesn't lie. I'm not knocking his game, he played good in the series and he deserved the MVP. But don't knock FG%.. it's accurate.
yeah but didnt his FG get killed by him re-entering the game in game 1 when the game was clearly over which ultimately makes his FG lower than it should of been and make it appear that he shot worse then he really did? it also took a dive when we were just running the clock out during game 5 .. it was basically give kobe the ball and when the 24 second shot is about to end let him just throw it up there.

ehh it is what it is. who cares right :confusedshrug:

[DetroitPistonFan]

It's simple. When he was younger, his shot selection was bad. 2008, Celtics shut him down, 2009 Finals was good and 2010 at age 31, don't expect much dominating games from him now in the Finals just like Jordan. That's how I see it.

[dr8ked]

but what is wrong with 43% against a good orlando defense in a series the lakers won in 5?


I'm a piston fan and when you mention defense and orlando in the same sentence i :roll:.. Orlando defense is all because of dwight howard, they don't play team defense.. they are also a one trick pony team on offense. But anyway compared to other superstars perfomances in the finals, 43%FG is sub par..

[ginobli2311]

I'm a piston fan and when you mention defense and orlando in the same sentence i :roll:.. Orlando defense is all because of dwight howard, they don't play team defense.. they are also a one trick pony team on offense. But anyway compared to other superstars perfomances in the finals, 43%FG is sub par..

orlando played good D last year. not on the level of the pistons. but they were good defensively. 43% over 5 games is just not that bad at all even for a superstar guard.

[HighFlyer23]

he's just overrated .. what else? :confusedshrug:

like those tough shots he makes .. he takes so many of course he's going to make some ..

[dr8ked]

orlando played good D last year. not on the level of the pistons. but they were good defensively. 43% over 5 games is just not that bad at all even for a superstar guard.

I beg to differ. especially when his fans claim he's the Goat. But thats a discussion for another time.

[DetroitPistonFan]

he's just overrated .. what else? :confusedshrug:

like those tough shots he makes .. he takes so many of course he's going to make some ..
As much as I hate Kobe. He's not overrated.

[ginobli2311]

I beg to differ. especially when his fans claim he's the Goat. But thats a discussion for another time.

LOL. and i'm labeled as a hater and the mods try to shut me up. i love it.

[HighFlyer23]

As much as I hate Kobe. He's not overrated.

when his fans call him GOAT he is

[insidious301]

Because he's overrated. The most missed shots in Finals history, are you serious? Magic Johnson took 151 less shots than Kobe during one of his Final runs (forget which, but Magic won MVP), and made one more shot than Kobe did all Finals...These Laker fans honestly believe this guy is the greatest Laker?

:oldlol:

[AK47DR91]

A mixture of opponents' defense and Kobe's own selfishness.

2004 Finals is a good example of his selfishness. Pistons D was great but some of that was b/c of Kobe trying to be the Finals MVP.

[Jacks3]

He did good in 2001/2002/2009/2010. His all-around numbers and defense was excellent, and he did against top tier defensive teams. FG% isn't everything.

[ginobli2311]

He did good in 2001/2002/2009/2010. His all-around numbers and defense was excellent, and he did against top tier defensive teams. FG% isn't everything.

agreed. he just did not play up to superstar / all time great standards for his career in the finals. i think that is what the OP meant. why does kobe not play as well as other superstars have in the finals like shaq/jordan/kareem/magic/hakeem/russell....etc.

[dr8ked]

agreed. he just did not play up to superstar / all time great standards for his career in the finals. i think that is what the OP meant. why does kobe not play as well as other superstars have in the finals like shaq/jordan/kareem/magic/hakeem/russell....etc.

Add wade to that list

[ginobli2311]

Add wade to that list

wade needs to play more than 1 finals to be put into that class.

[dr8ked]

wade needs to play more than 1 finals to be put into that class.

:roll: Wade's finals perfomance is out of this world, sorry kobe fans, but i can't see kobe play at that level in the finals. Forgive me, maybe i'm wrong but i just don't see it :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Jacks3]

agreed. he just did not play up to superstar / all time great standards for his career in the finals. i think that is what the OP meant. why does kobe not play as well as other superstars have in the finals like shaq/jordan/kareem/magic/hakeem/russell....etc.

1.Nobody considers Kobe on the Jordan/Kareem level, and Peak Shaq was indisputably better, so it's kinda pointless/unfair to be asking why he doesn't play as well as those guys.

2. When Bryant is measured against those other superstars, Finals performances
will only be a small part of the overall picture. I think it's fair to say that he still stacks up well as a overall post-season performer, and has other advantages depending on who you compare him to.

3. Plenty of superstars have had bad Finals/playoff series in terms of efficiency or even overall play. Bird had them. . Magic. Malone. Everybody. It doesn't mean much because their good far outweighs true bad and the same holds true for Bryant.

[ginobli2311]

1.Nobody considers Kobe on the Jordan/Kareem level, and Peak Shaq was indisputably better, so it's kinda pointless/unfair to be asking why he doesn't play as well as those guys.

2. When Bryant is measured against those other superstars, Finals performances
will only be a small part of the overall picture. I think it's fair to say that he still stacks up well as a overall post-season performer, and has other advantages depending on who you compare him to.

3. Plenty of superstars have had bad Finals/playoff series in terms of efficiency or even overall play. Bird had them. . Magic. Malone. Everybody. It doesn't mean much because their good far outweighs true bad and the same holds true for Bryant.

yea. i actually agree. but kobe's finals performances are a factor when ranking him against the truly elite. just like his average efficiency levels in the playoffs for his career.....44.8% for his career. bird, for example, shot 47.2% for his career.

[dr8ked]

yea. i actually agree. but kobe's finals performances are a factor when ranking him against the truly elite. just like his average efficiency levels in the playoffs for his career.....44.8% for his career. bird, for example, shot 47.2% for his career.


Fact or Fiction ?- kobe is not an efficient scorer. :confusedshrug:

[ginobli2311]

Fact or Fiction ?- kobe is not an efficient scorer. :confusedshrug:

fiction. kobe is an efficient scorer for a shooting guard that takes as many threes as he does. he's just not as efficient as some of the best ever like bird/jordan......and current guys like wade/lebron.

[insidious301]

Every player has bad games in the Finals(at least the ones that make it there). Difference is Kobe has the MOST, for a top 10 player that is.

[ginobli2311]

Every player has bad games in the Finals(at least the ones that make it there). Difference is Kobe has the MOST, especially for a top 10 player.

agreed.

[TryToBeUnbias]

I suspect that 44.8 to keep for at least 2-3 season

[Jacks3]

yea. i actually agree. but kobe's finals performances are a factor when ranking him against the truly elite.
Yes, one of many factors. Sometimes he'll compare favorably, sometimes he won't.

just like his average efficiency levels in the playoffs for his career.....44.8% for his career. bird, for example, shot 47.2% for his career.
1. And Kobe has advantages over Bird: longevity, defense, accolades/accomplishments, team success.

2. His efficiency in the playoffs as a starter has been very good. His efficiency as a #1 option(05-10) has been excellent, especially given his high volume.

[ginobli2311]

Yes, one of many factors. Sometimes he'll compare favorably, sometimes he won't.

1. And Kobe has advantages over Bird: longevity, defense, accolades/accomplishments, team success.

2. His efficiency in the playoffs as a starter has been very good. His efficiency as a #1 option(05-10) has been excellent, especially given his high volume.

yep agreed. i don't think anyone is going to say bird is better than kobe solely because of fg%. i think bird is superior for many other different reasons.

[Jacks3]

That's nice.

[alexandreben]

when you play smart, know when to pass when to shoot and where to shoot, it makes you look good;

when you play dumb and selfish like Kobe did, always takes so called "amazing shots" AKA dumb-shots, you don't look good;:roll:

we're talking about an era which banned the "hand-checking", it helps super stars to score easier than the old school, you can't possibly take so many dumb-shots, can you?

[alexandreben]

Yes, one of many factors. Sometimes he'll compare favorably, sometimes he won't.

1. And Kobe has advantages over Bird: longevity, defense, accolades/accomplishments, team success.

2. His efficiency in the playoffs as a starter has been very good. His efficiency as a #1 option(05-10) has been excellent, especially given his high volume.

1. Bird has advantages over Kobe:
- much better basketball IQ;
- better rebounding;
- better defense in the paint;
- better shot blocking;
- better team success(he brought a 29 wins Celtics to 61 wins with same rosters);
- better 2P shooting;
- better 3P shooting;
- better passing;

regarding to longevity:
31 years old Kobe: .456 / 27.0pts / 5.4rbs / 5.0ast / .329(3P%)
31 years old Bird: .527 / 29.9pts / 9.3rbs / 6.1ast / .414(3P%)

Bird's last season 35 years old, he still got 20.2pts/9.6rbs/6.8ast on a .466 shooting field goal, Bird's last season's FG% is higher than this year's Kobe, talking about longevity?:roll: i really doubt if Kobe could have a chance to get that level of stats in his 35 years old season.

2. stop using the PER to say that Kobe is more efficient than Bird, that insults Bird's efficency, we all know Bird is a more efficient and productive player than Kobe.

[RazorBaLade]

Defense in the paint is apparently an official stat now. This is getting ridiculous.

[chazzy]

:roll: Wade's finals perfomance is out of this world, sorry kobe fans, but i can't see kobe play at that level in the finals. Forgive me, maybe i'm wrong but i just don't see it :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

You just called ginobli a Kobe fan? Nice one :oldlol:

One amazing finals series doesn't vault you into the grouping of those other players, much like one amazing playoff run doesn't vault you onto a list of the most amazing playoff performers. Doing it multiple times does.

[Quotable]

I'll remember Kobe underachieving during the NBA finals, but absolutely destroying teams during the conference finals.

[amfirst]

5 rings means you do good in the finals...

Now LeBron u can say why he always does bad in the finals. :lol

[Jacks3]

I'll remember Kobe underachieving during the NBA finals, but absolutely destroying teams during the conference finals.
this.

[Manute for Ever!]

5 rings means you do good in the finals...

Now LeBron u can say why he always does bad in the finals. :lol

Actually, it means you played on five winning teams in the finals. Adam Morrison has two rings, did he 'do good' in the finals? The argument could be made that he didn't miss a shot...

[MakeHistory78]

As much as I hate Kobe. He's not overrated.
If Kobe fans or anyone compare him o Mike then yes he is overrated.He is nowhere to MJ.
Jordan was and is the best player ever at the post-season.Kobe isn't even a Top-10 ever playoff performer.

[indiefan24]

a stupid question.:no:

http://www.***************.com/NBA-Jerseys/Los-Angeles-Lakers/

spammer

[Papaya Petee]

Because he's not as good people make him to be. He had horrible series vs Boston twice, Indiana, and Detroit. That's 4 out of 7 bad series. Against Orlando he put up 32\7\6 on pretty bad FG%, but I guess you can't count that as a bad series.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Because he's not as good people make him to be. He had horrible series vs Boston twice, Indiana, and Detroit. That's 4 out of 7 bad series. Against Orlando he put up 32\7\6 on pretty bad FG%, but I guess you can't count that as a bad series.

It was a very defensive series against Boston. EVERY player shot low %, including Gasol who was not defensively schemed against.

People need to realize that FG% is far from the only aspect of the game.
Kobe had a solid series. While his FG% was low, like everyone elses, he contributed in other ways, most importantly 2nd on the team in rebounds, which is what won the series.

[KenneBell]

I don't see how his last series against Boston was bad. Then again, this is ISH. :oldlol:

[32jazz]

Just wondering.

It's do 'well', not 'good':rolleyes: . Kobe has been to 7 NBA Finals in 11 years as a starter & won 5 times. I would say that he does EXCELLENT.:confusedshrug:

[AirJordan&Magic]

Because he's not as good people make him to be. He had horrible series vs Boston twice, Indiana, and Detroit. That's 4 out of 7 bad series. Against Orlando he put up 32\7\6 on pretty bad FG%, but I guess you can't count that as a bad series.

He shot 43% vs Orlando. How exactly is that bad fg%? It is respectable, definitely not good, but it is solid, especially against a top ranked defensive team.

And he only had 1 horrible series against Boston, and that was in 2008.

This year, he didn't shot a low percentage against Boston, but the difference from 2008? He impacted the series with his defense, rebounding, hustle plays, ball creating, and leadership. Things he didn't do in the 2008 finals.

His only horrible series were against Boston in 2008 and especially against Detroit in 2004, when he shot the Lakers out of some games.

I really wouldn't say he had a horrible series in 2000, because he was pretty much injured for the remainder of the finals and missed 2 games.

[AirJordan&Magic]

It was a very defensive series against Boston. EVERY player shot low %, including Gasol who was not defensively schemed against.

People need to realize that FG% is far from the only aspect of the game.
Kobe had a solid series. While his FG% was low, like everyone elses, he contributed in other ways, most importantly 2nd on the team in rebounds, which is what won the series.

Seriously, the fg% crap is becoming the most overblown aspect of the game so far.

It has to be put into proper context. Factors such as: did the player contribute in other ways? or did he get a low fg % through ill advised shotjacking (Kobe in 2004)? etc.

[whoartthou]

The reason kobe underachieves in the finals imo, is because he seems to fold/crumble under pressure in the biggest stages. Also the fact that he plays really good defensive teams does not help his case, but he has been on so many stacked teams, that if he did not take lower percentage shots and set up his teammates more often, i really believe kobe can shoot 47-48 percent in the finals. For some odd reason, kobe loves to take crazy shots, but that is who kobe is.

[LA_Showtime]

It's a combination of facing the #1 ranked defenses, forcing the issue, lacking help, and his desire to put his stamp on the game.

[LA_Showtime]

He shot 43% vs Orlando. How exactly is that bad fg%? It is respectable, definitely not good, but it is solid, especially against a top ranked defensive team.

And he only had 1 horrible series against Boston, and that was in 2008.

This year, he didn't shot a low percentage against Boston, but the difference from 2008? He impacted the series with his defense, rebounding, hustle plays, ball creating, and leadership. Things he didn't do in the 2008 finals.

His only horrible series were against Boston in 2008 and especially against Detroit in 2004, when he shot the Lakers out of some games.

I really wouldn't say he had a horrible series in 2000, because he was pretty much injured for the remainder of the finals and missed 2 games.

Kobe hardly played terrible against the Celtics in 2008. His numbers were below norm, but he outplayed Pierce, the Finals MVP.

The only performances that will come back to haunt Bryant are the 2004 Pistons series and game 7 of the NBA Finals this past year.

[Calabis]

This great defense of the Cetics...hmm
Kobe- shot 66-163 .400% in 7 games....a title and finals mvp
Wade- shot 62-110 .564% in 5 games

and let's face it Wade was the main focus, no Pau

Also reference Kobe playing great defense in 2010 finals. Really????? Did he??? What sagging off 10 feet from Rondo, playing a zone type defense was great? When Rondo blew by him, he was getting his crap smacked by Gasol/Bynum or forced to shoot over them....let's not get ridiculous here Gasol/Bynum made it difficult and the Ray Allen disappearance

Tex Winter: Because the Lakers need so much of his effort at the offensive end, Bryant has adopted a save-energy plan on the defensive end, Winter said. "He's basically playing a lot of one-man zone. He's doing a lot of switching, zoning up, trying to come up with the interception.

"The way Kobe plays defensively affects the team," Winter added. "Anybody that doesn't play consistently good defense hurts the team. That's not only Kobe. Our other guards tend to gamble and get beat. Another problem is that the screen and roll is not played correctly."

[ashbelly]

This great defense of the Cetics...hmm
Kobe- shot 66-163 .400% in 7 games....a title and finals mvp
Wade- shot 62-110 .564% in 5 games

and let's face it Wade was the main focus, no Pau

Also reference Kobe playing great defense in 2010 finals. Really????? Did he??? What sagging off 10 feet from Rondo, playing a zone type defense was great? When Rondo blew by him, he was getting his crap smacked by Gasol/Bynum or forced to shoot over them....let's not get ridiculous here Gasol/Bynum made it difficult and the Ray Allen disappearance

Tex Winter: Because the Lakers need so much of his effort at the offensive end, Bryant has adopted a save-energy plan on the defensive end, Winter said. "He's basically playing a lot of one-man zone. He's doing a lot of switching, zoning up, trying to come up with the interception.

"The way Kobe plays defensively affects the team," Winter added. "Anybody that doesn't play consistently good defense hurts the team. That's not only Kobe. Our other guards tend to gamble and get beat. Another problem is that the screen and roll is not played correctly."


Copied and saved it .. :bowdown: :bowdown: Direct From the horse's mouth..

[KenneBell]

I though he played some very good defense in there Finals. 2 steals and about a block per game and made Rondo work.

That quote from Tex was in 2006 or 2007. I don't think it has applied to Kobe in the past 3 postseasons.

[ashbelly]

I though he played some very good defense in there Finals. 2 steals and about a block per game and made Rondo work.

That quote from Tex was in 2006 or 2007. I don't think it has applied to Kobe in the past 3 postseasons.

:roll: :roll: :roll: So basically what you are saying is his defense has been greatly overated before 2008.. How many 1st nba defensive teams has he made ?? :ohwell:

[catch24]

Tex Winter: Because the Lakers need so much of his effort at the offensive end, Bryant has adopted a save-energy plan on the defensive end, Winter said. "He's basically playing a lot of one-man zone. He's doing a lot of switching, zoning up, trying to come up with the interception.

"The way Kobe plays defensively affects the team," Winter added. "Anybody that doesn't play consistently good defense hurts the team. That's not only Kobe. Our other guards tend to gamble and get beat. Another problem is that the screen and roll is not played correctly."

Further proving 'first team ALL D' is based on perception. I still don't think Kobe deserved it over Wade these past two seasons.

[gts]

Tex Winter: Because the Lakers need so much of his effort at the offensive end, Bryant has adopted a save-energy plan on the defensive end, Winter said. "He's basically playing a lot of one-man zone. He's doing a lot of switching, zoning up, trying to come up with the interception.

"The way Kobe plays defensively affects the team," Winter added. "Anybody that doesn't play consistently good defense hurts the team. That's not only Kobe. Our other guards tend to gamble and get beat. Another problem is that the screen and roll is not played correctly."
lol posting a quote by tex from 2005... this current team is a lot different then the squad back then

[chopchop20]

I'd imagine the intensity is much greater during the Finals. But 5/7 aint bad, so Lakers fans like me are cool

[KenneBell]

:roll: :roll: :roll: So basically what you are saying is his defense has been greatly overated before 2008.. How many 1st nba defensive teams has he made ?? :ohwell:
Nope. I just think his defense has been better. Especially since his offensive responsibilities have decreased.

[chopchop20]

Further proving 'first team ALL D' is based on perception. I still don't think Kobe deserved it over Wade these past two seasons.

Kobe's playoff defense this year was really good IMO

[catch24]

Kobe's playoff defense this year was really good IMO

Oh, it definitely was. Dude pretty much shut down Russell Westbrook (compared to what he was doing the first 3-4 games) towards the end of that series. He did a nice job on Rondo in the Finals too.

[Calabis]

lol posting a quote by tex from 2005... this current team is a lot different then the squad back then

So your telling me in his prime he was a wack ass defender??? Glad to see some trends stay the same

I think its actually from 2008

[KenneBell]

So your telling me in his prime he was a wack ass defender???
Did he say that?

[Calabis]

Did he say that?

No because I'm just fu**ing around, I think Kobe is a good defender, but let's not act like his defense was special in the 2010 finals, he really didn't play good defense, he sagged off someone who can't shoot worth a damn...Also the same things he did when Tex mentioned this, he does now, so who cares when it was actually said...imo I think its worse if he said it 5 years ago

[gts]

So your telling me in his prime he was a wack ass defender??? Glad to see some trends stay the same

I think its actually from 2008
no it's from lazenby's book the show it came out in 2004 or 2005

as for if kobe deserves the defensive awards.. if 30 nba head coaches think hes that good, i'm going to figure the guys who have to game plan him, watch hours of film on the guy and coach against him on a night in and out basis know a little bit more about it then a bunch of folks on a message board

this isn't an media driven award like MVP, this is a spot the nba head coaches vote on

[Calabis]

no it's from lazenby's book the show it came out in 2004 or 2005

Maybe he put it in this book also then Lindy's Pro Basketball 2008-09 :confusedshrug:

Editor Roland Lazenby contributed a very interesting story about Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant titled, "In Michael's Image." Lazenby has long had a very close working relationship with Tex Winter, the inventor of the Triangle Offense who coached both Jordan (with the Chicago Bulls) and Bryant (with the Lakers, for whom Winter is still a consultant)

[gts]

Maybe he put it in this book also then Lindy's Pro Basketball 2008-09 :confusedshrug:

Editor Roland Lazenby contributed a very interesting story about Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant titled, "In Michael's Image." Lazenby has long had a very close working relationship with Tex Winter, the inventor of the Triangle Offense who coached both Jordan (with the Chicago Bulls) and Bryant (with the Lakers, for whom Winter is still a consultant)probably let them reprint... i have lazenby's book, he also posted that same thing on his old blog... good read btw, kinda fun

too bad his old blog site is no more, when he switched over he took all the archives out, you could read 90% of the book online... i think he finally figured out he'd sell more books if he wasn't giving it away for free...lol

[LA KB24]

Jordan, 1996 Finals:
GM1: 9/18 FG 1/4 3P 9/10 FT 7 RB 2 AS 2 ST 1 BK 28 PTS
GM2: 9/22 FG 1/2 3P 10/16 FT 6 RB 8 AS 2 ST 0 BK 29 PTS
GM3: 11/23 FG 3/4 3P 11/11 FT 3 RB 5 AS 2 ST 0 BK 36 PTS
GM4: 6/19 FG 0/2 3P 11/13 FT 3 RB 2 AS 1 ST 0 BK 23 PTS
GM5: 11/22 FG 0/4 3P 4/5 FT 4 RB 1 AS 1 ST 0 BK 26 PTS
GM6: 5/19 FG 1/3 3P 11/12 FT 9 RB 7 AS 2 ST 0 BK 22 PTS

51/123 FG 6/19 3P 56/67 FT 32 RB 25 AS 10 ST 1 BK 164 PTS


Bryant, 2010 Finals:

GM1: 10/22 FG 1/2 3P 9/10 FT 7 RB 6 AS 1 ST 1 BK 30 PTS
GM2: 8/20 FG 2/7 3P 3/3 FT 5 RB 6 AS 4 ST 0 BK 21 PTS
GM3: 10/29 FG 1/7 3P 8/8 FT 7 RB 4 AS 2 ST 3 BK 29 PTS
GM4: 10/22 FG 6/11 3P 7/8 FT 6 RB 2 AS 2 ST 0 BK 33 PTS
GM5: 13/27 FG 4/10 3P 8/9 FT 5 RB 4 AS 1 ST 1 BK 38 PTS
GM6: 9/19 FG 1/4 3P 7/7 FT 11 RB 3 AS 4 ST 0 BK 26 PTS
GM7: 6/24 FG 0/6 3P 11/15 FT 15 RB 2 AS 1 ST 0 BK 23 PTS

66/163 FG 15/47 3P 53/60 FT 56 RB 27 AS 15 ST 5 BK 200 PTS

[LA KB24]

Jordan, 1996 Finals:
GM1: 9/18 FG 1/4 3P 9/10 FT 7 RB 2 AS 2 ST 1 BK 28 PTS
GM2: 9/22 FG 1/2 3P 10/16 FT 6 RB 8 AS 2 ST 0 BK 29 PTS
GM3: 11/23 FG 3/4 3P 11/11 FT 3 RB 5 AS 2 ST 0 BK 36 PTS
GM4: 6/19 FG 0/2 3P 11/13 FT 3 RB 2 AS 1 ST 0 BK 23 PTS
GM5: 11/22 FG 0/4 3P 4/5 FT 4 RB 1 AS 1 ST 0 BK 26 PTS
GM6: 5/19 FG 1/3 3P 11/12 FT 9 RB 7 AS 2 ST 0 BK 22 PTS

51/123 FG 6/19 3P 56/67 FT 32 RB 25 AS 10 ST 1 BK 164 PTS


Bryant, 2010 Finals:

GM1: 10/22 FG 1/2 3P 9/10 FT 7 RB 6 AS 1 ST 1 BK 30 PTS
GM2: 8/20 FG 2/7 3P 3/3 FT 5 RB 6 AS 4 ST 0 BK 21 PTS
GM3: 10/29 FG 1/7 3P 8/8 FT 7 RB 4 AS 2 ST 3 BK 29 PTS
GM4: 10/22 FG 6/11 3P 7/8 FT 6 RB 2 AS 2 ST 0 BK 33 PTS
GM5: 13/27 FG 4/10 3P 8/9 FT 5 RB 4 AS 1 ST 1 BK 38 PTS
GM6: 9/19 FG 1/4 3P 7/7 FT 11 RB 3 AS 4 ST 0 BK 26 PTS
GM7: 6/24 FG 0/6 3P 11/15 FT 15 RB 2 AS 1 ST 0 BK 23 PTS

66/163 FG 15/47 3P 53/60 FT 56 RB 27 AS 15 ST 5 BK 200 PTS
Btw, if that was Kobe in '96 with those stats, the Finals MVP would be given to a losing Shawn Kemp.

[NBASTATMAN]

Philly was a top 5 defensive team in 2001 as well and he did have a good(not great series) and he was better in the 4 wins after the game 1 loss when he was terrible. He played very well vs the Nets in 2002 and they had the number 1 ranked defense.

He didn't play well in the 2000 or 2004 finals, but the 2000 Kobe wasn't the superstar version we're use to and while I'm not excusing his selfish play in 2004, there were a lot of distractions. He played below his standards in 2008, but he didn't get much help either. Again he was good in 2009 vs the number 1 ranked defensive team, had an excellent game 1, wouldn't call it a great series by his standard, but still solid. Shot poorly this year, but played good defense, had several good shooting games and was clearly the best player in the series, and of course, they won.

As Fatal mentioned the 2004 Pistons and 2008 Celtics are all time great defensive teams. The 2004 Pistons after the Rasheed Wallace trade have a good argument for GOAT defensive team.



Kobe stunk it up in 2004 .. No excuses.. He had shaq scoring at will when he actually passed him the ball.. He lost that series... In 2008 he just ran into a great defensive team.. I still have to remind people that Kobe was worse than Odom and Gasol in that series... Relatively speaking... I have no problem giving him a pass.. He was at best just good vs Orlando..


Their can be no excuses for Kobe this year... Boston guarded Kobe with Ray freaking Allen.. Who actually defended Kobe very well... No excuses for not passing when he was doubled.. His assist to turnover ratio was really bad as well.. Gasol probably deserved the MVP as much as Kobe in that series if not more.. Since he came to play in game seven... All in all Kobe will go down as a top 7 player all time... That is Something that cannot be argued..

[whoartthou]

kobe is definately one of the top 8 greats, and he might even become top 5. But his stats in the finals are atrocious compared to the other all time greats (collectively speaking). i do not understand why he still becomes "anxious" or "nervous" after playing in so many finals? If this dood really is a top 5 great (presently speaking) , shouldn't he have shown it to us already?

[tpols]

Btw, if that was Kobe in '96 with those stats, the Finals MVP would be given to a losing Shawn Kemp.
what? kobe beat jordan in every single stat and severely outrebounded him (yes I know he played an extra game).

You're saying that because jordan shot .9% better from the field?:confusedshrug:

[7_cody]

Boston didn't guard Kobe with Ray Allen. They guarded him with team defense geared towards stopping Kobe. It's called Boston '08 and '10 are two of the best defenses the NBA has ever seen... uhm, for a reason.

[7_cody]

what? kobe beat jordan in every single stat and severely outrebounded him (yes I know he played an extra game).

You're saying that because jordan shot .9% better from the field?:confusedshrug:

I think he's being sarcastic to prove a point that too much is expected out of Kobe. The one time MJ faced great defense (WHICH ISNT EVEN NEAR AS GOOD AS PISTONS OR CELTICS), he did not put up great statistics.

But everyone on ISH is an idiot because they think they can read a statline and know how great of a game everyone had. Kobe played great in the finals this year, and MJ played great in the finals against the Sonics in '96. Missed shots DO NOT EQUAL bad games. Get it? Entienden?

[whoartthou]

I must add that mj was quite old in those 96 finals and i believe injured as well? Nevertheless, the 2008 celtics and 2010 celtics defense is definately one of the great defenses of the 2000s, but lets not kid ourselves that MJ faced 0 high caliber defensive teams. It was not his fault that he met all time great defensive teams before the finals :confusedshrug:

[KIRA]

Because he wants to give his teammates a chance to shine and his haters more reasons to hate on him

[7_cody]

I must add that mj was quite old in those 96 finals and i believe injured as well? Nevertheless, the 2008 celtics and 2010 celtics defense is definately one of the great defenses of the 2000s, but lets not kid ourselves that MJ faced 0 high caliber defensive teams. It was not his fault that he met all time great defensive teams before the finals :confusedshrug:

Not zero, 1

He was 33 years old... uhm, do you know how old Kobe is?

You haven't watched Kobe play the Spurs in the playoffs have you?

[tpols]

I must add that mj was quite old in those 96 finals and i believe injured as well? Nevertheless, the 2008 celtics and 2010 celtics defense is definately one of the great defenses of the 2000s, but lets not kid ourselves that MJ faced 0 high caliber defensive teams. It was not his fault that he met all time great defensive teams before the finals :confusedshrug:
Kobe was just as old and he was playing with a f!cked up shooting hand and had some knee problems...

[7_cody]

Kobe was just as old and he was playing with a f!cked up shooting hand and had some knee problems...

Yeah, I mean that hardly affected him though. Remember how Kobe dominated around the first 20-30 games of the season, when healthy... or wait, exactly. He did. And I hope he's healthy next year.

[whoartthou]

Not zero, 1

He was 33 years old... uhm, do you know how old Kobe is?

You haven't watched Kobe play the Spurs in the playoffs have you?

kobe is what, 31? I have watched kobe play the spurs (he usually killed the spurs).

He played the knicks, the pistons, the celtics, the heat, and to a lesser extent, the phoenix suns. All of these teams were great defensive teams just like the celtics.

[whoartthou]

Kobe was just as old and he was playing with a f!cked up shooting hand and had some knee problems...


i am not excusing Michael jordans performance against the 1996 supersonics. And yes, kobe was injured, but was he injured in the 2008 finals? I mean MJ would have most definitely performed better if he was not injured and probably kobe as well.

[godofgods]

Coz he sucks dude.

[Calabis]

Jordan, 1996 Finals:
GM1: 9/18 FG 1/4 3P 9/10 FT 7 RB 2 AS 2 ST 1 BK 28 PTS
GM2: 9/22 FG 1/2 3P 10/16 FT 6 RB 8 AS 2 ST 0 BK 29 PTS
GM3: 11/23 FG 3/4 3P 11/11 FT 3 RB 5 AS 2 ST 0 BK 36 PTS
GM4: 6/19 FG 0/2 3P 11/13 FT 3 RB 2 AS 1 ST 0 BK 23 PTS
GM5: 11/22 FG 0/4 3P 4/5 FT 4 RB 1 AS 1 ST 0 BK 26 PTS
GM6: 5/19 FG 1/3 3P 11/12 FT 9 RB 7 AS 2 ST 0 BK 22 PTS

51/123 FG 6/19 3P 56/67 FT 32 RB 25 AS 10 ST 1 BK 164 PTS


Bryant, 2010 Finals:

GM1: 10/22 FG 1/2 3P 9/10 FT 7 RB 6 AS 1 ST 1 BK 30 PTS
GM2: 8/20 FG 2/7 3P 3/3 FT 5 RB 6 AS 4 ST 0 BK 21 PTS
GM3: 10/29 FG 1/7 3P 8/8 FT 7 RB 4 AS 2 ST 3 BK 29 PTS
GM4: 10/22 FG 6/11 3P 7/8 FT 6 RB 2 AS 2 ST 0 BK 33 PTS
GM5: 13/27 FG 4/10 3P 8/9 FT 5 RB 4 AS 1 ST 1 BK 38 PTS
GM6: 9/19 FG 1/4 3P 7/7 FT 11 RB 3 AS 4 ST 0 BK 26 PTS
GM7: 6/24 FG 0/6 3P 11/15 FT 15 RB 2 AS 1 ST 0 BK 23 PTS

66/163 FG 15/47 3P 53/60 FT 56 RB 27 AS 15 ST 5 BK 200 PTS

LMAO yeah let's pick Jordan's worst finals performance and compare it to Kobe's 4th worst performance nice one...please post the pistons/pacers/celtics 08...let's just post their career numbers...also difference between Jordan and Kobe?

Jordan made huge baskets in the 4th quarter on many bad shooting nights, where as Kobe doesn't. 98 Utah Game 6, bad shooting night thru 3, then he scores 16 4th quarter points, final 8 points in last 2 minutes, huge steal game winner...that's the difference, now please stick to the question and quit trying to compare him to Jordan who destroys Kobe's numbers in every facet of the game, especially in the finals

[Calabis]

what? kobe beat jordan in every single stat and severely outrebounded him (yes I know he played an extra game).

You're saying that because jordan shot .9% better from the field?:confusedshrug:

Dude please shut the F up, like I said you and your fellow homer are taking Jordan's worse finals appearance and putting it up against Kobe's 4th worst performance...here is all that matters

Kobe has 937 pts and 475 misses in 37 games
Mike has 1,176 pts and 473 misses in 35 games
why does Kobe have more misses,yet 239 fewer points in the nba finals?...

Playoffs: Kobe- 5052 pts in 7811 minutes
Mike- 5987 pts in 7474 minutes

Jordans Career Finals: 33.6pts, 48% shooting, 36% 3pt%, 6rebs, 6ast, 1.8 stls per game.

Jordan last three peat: 31pts, 42%FG, 31%3pt, 4.2 rebs, 4.1ast

last time I checked that's better than Kobe's career numbers, please post them

[7_cody]

Dude please shut the F up, like I said you and your fellow homer are taking Jordan's worse finals appearance and putting it up against Kobe's 4th worst performance...here is all that matters

Kobe has 937 pts and 475 misses in 37 games
Mike has 1,176 pts and 473 misses in 35 games
why does Kobe have more misses,yet 239 fewer points in the nba finals?...

Playoffs: Kobe- 5052 pts in 7811 minutes
Mike- 5987 pts in 7474 minutes

Jordans Career Finals: 33.6pts, 48% shooting, 36% 3pt%, 6rebs, 6ast, 1.8 stls per game.

Jordan last three peat: 31pts, 42%FG, 31%3pt, 4.2 rebs, 4.1ast

last time I checked that's better than Kobe's career numbers, please post them

Here you go again, manipulating statistics. Statistics shouldn't even be used in the first place. But if they are going to be used, they should be used in the right context.

Kobe's current back-to-back Finals should be compared to Jordans last three-peat. His first three-peat should not be compared to Jordans second three-peat. Does this make sense to you?

I'll spell it out for you. Kobe was not the to-go man. Kobe was not even in his prime. MJ was IN HIS PRIME. When Kobe was in his prime, he didn't make the finals. If Kobe could have faced a team like the Suns or Jazz in '06, he would have averaged 33+ pts on 53%+ shooting. Hell, he did it at 32 years old, except in the Western Conf. Finals instead of in the Finals.

There are just millions of external variables that manipulate these statistics. Another one is that Jordan never faced the kind of defense Kobe did in the Finals, and the one time he did, he put up crappy stats. However, he still played great, but idiots on ISH think that great stats = great games. Not necessarily true. A lot of times great games translate to great stats, sometimes players have great games without great stats. Stats do not tell the entire story. They tell a very, very, very small portion of the story.

Compare Kobe current back-to-back Finals to Jordans last three-peat. They're very comparable. I've seen the numbers already.

And you're the worst liar I've ever seen. Quit manipulating the numbers.

[7_cody]

double post

[New York Knicks]

Here you go again, manipulating statistics. Statistics shouldn't even be used in the first place. But if they are going to be used, they should be used in the right context.

Kobe's current back-to-back Finals should be compared to Jordans last three-peat. His first three-peat should not be compared to Jordans second three-peat. Does this make sense to you?

I'll spell it out for you. Kobe was not the to-go man. Kobe was not even in his prime. MJ was IN HIS PRIME. When Kobe was in his prime, he didn't make the finals. If Kobe could have faced a team like the Suns or Jazz in '06, he would have averaged 33+ pts on 53%+ shooting. Hell, he did it at 32 years old, except in the Western Conf. Finals instead of in the Finals.

There are just millions of external variables that manipulate these statistics. Another one is that Jordan never faced the kind of defense Kobe did in the Finals, and the one time he did, he put up crappy stats. However, he still played great, but idiots on ISH think that great stats = great games. Not necessarily true. A lot of times great games translate to great stats, sometimes players have great games without great stats. Stats do not tell the entire story. They tell a very, very, very small portion of the story.

Compare Kobe current back-to-back Finals to Jordans last three-peat. They're very comparable. I've seen the numbers already.

And you're the worst liar I've ever seen. Quit manipulating the numbers.
The Suns Jordan faced are better than the Nets, Pacers, and 76ers Kobe faced.

[7_cody]

The Suns Jordan faced are better than the Nets, Pacers, and 76ers Kobe faced.

And that's Kobe first three-peat before Kobe was the to go man, before Kobe was in his prime and WHILE Kobe was sacrificing his individual statistics for Shaq to be the man. You don't think that's going to influence his statistics? Statistics are already a horrible, inaccurate way to argue, but when you take them out of context then they become 10000X worse. Kind of like what Calabis likes to do all day. "Ahem, guys, dude, MJ averaged like way more points as the man in his prime, in his best years of basketball than Kobe did when he was a 20 year old kid sacrificing his own stats so Shaq could be the man. Dude, I really think MJ is the best player of all time, I mean just look at his stats!"

Also, the '04 Pistons, '08 Celtics, and '10 Celtics are better than any team defensively that MJ has ever faced in the Finals. I can play this game too. 3 of Kobe's Finals teams >>>>>> ANY team MJ EVER faced in the Finals.

[Calabis]

Here you go again, manipulating statistics. Statistics shouldn't even be used in the first place. But if they are going to be used, they should be used in the right context.

How the hell am I manipulating stats, that's their Pts in NBA FINALS COMBINED....and Points scored in Minutes Played, Kobe has played more games/minutes, yet has less points, he has more missed shots than MJ and scored 200+ less points

Kobe's current back-to-back Finals should be compared to Jordans last three-peat. His first three-peat should not be compared to Jordans second three-peat. Does this make sense to you?

And why the hell do we have to throw out Jordan's first three peat?? LMAO so we have to get rid of Prime Jordans 3peat and only use 33-35 old after a retirement three peat??? Fact remains Jordan better career finals stats, no matter how you bend/twist it

I'll spell it out for you. Kobe was not the to-go man. Kobe was not even in his prime. MJ was IN HIS PRIME. When Kobe was in his prime, he didn't make the finals. If Kobe could have faced a team like the Suns or Jazz in '06, he would have averaged 33+ pts on 53%+ shooting. Hell, he did it at 32 years old, except in the Western Conf. Finals instead of in the Finals.

Why wasn't Kobe the go to man? Is that Jordans fault? If Kobe would have faced a team like the Jazz or Suns??? WTF who has he faced that is some power house team, Jazz swept Kobe and his Lakers and went to back to back Chips

There are just millions of external variables that manipulate these statistics. Another one is that Jordan never faced the kind of defense Kobe did in the Finals, and the one time he did, he put up crappy stats. However, he still played great, but idiots on ISH think that great stats = great games. Not necessarily true. A lot of times great games translate to great stats, sometimes players have great games without great stats. Stats do not tell the entire story. They tell a very, very, very small portion of the story.

LMAO first off lets quit trying to spread bullshit around here. You act as if Kobe has faced juggernaut defenders in the finals....what a crock of shit. And yeah Jordan did have his worst series by being guarded by Payton DPOY, that season, McMillan second team all defense and Hersey Hawkins a well respected defender......Kobe vs 34 year old Reggie Miller/Jalen Rose, Snow/Mckie, Kittles/Jefferson/Kidd(same squad Jordan hit up for 40+ at age 39-40), Hamilton/Prince, Allen/Posey, Lee/Pietrus, Allen/Allen....GTFOH with that nonsense...try spelling that out

Compare Kobe current back-to-back Finals to Jordans last three-peat. They're very comparable. I've seen the numbers already.

LMAO, yeah throw out Jordans best finals in his prime and take his post retirement ones and compare those to Kobe's best finals performances, take out Kobe's bad one...then the numbers are comparable..nice job moron

And you're the worst liar I've ever seen. Quit manipulating the numbers.

WTF are you trying to do by excluding final performances to make Kobe's case stronger....please shut up now


:wtf:

And before I forget, Jordan faced the Pistons and Knicks just to get to the Finals, so you have no point, now run along to another pro Kobe Thread

[7_cody]

:wtf:

You're not very smart. I'm not just conviently using Kobe's best Finals against MJ's worse. Kobe never played in the Finals in his prime. His first 3-peat, he was NOT in his prime and he was sacrificing his statistics for Shaq. Do you agree with this?

However, Kobe's current back-to-back is comparable to MJ's second three-peat. Does this make sense? Do you understand the words that are coming out of my mou---that I am typing?

to your edit: And Kobe destroyed other great teams, like the Spurs... so what?

double edit: Nowhere did I say Kobe > MJ, but MJ is not miles ahead. He was not a god. When watching him live, he had lots of horrible game. What bothers me is the abuse of statistics to therefore declare a "fact" that X > Y, and then it gets even worse when they are used so far out of context, like what you do. Another thing that bothers me is when people act like MJ is the undisputed GOAT. IMO, he's the GOAT, but it's not undisputed.

[Calabis]

You're not very smart. I'm not just conviently using Kobe's best Finals against MJ's worse. Kobe never played in the Finals in his prime. His first 3-peat, he was NOT in his prime and he was sacrificing his statistics for Shaq. Do you agree with this?

However, Kobe's current back-to-back is comparable to MJ's second three-peat. Does this make sense? Do you understand the words that are coming out of my mou---that I am typing?

to your edit: And Kobe destroyed other great teams, like the Spurs... so what?

double edit: Nowhere did I say Kobe > MJ, but MJ is not miles ahead. He was not a god. When watching him live, he had lots of horrible game. What bothers me is the abuse of statistics to therefore declare a "fact" that X > Y, and then it gets even worse when they are used so far out of context, like what you do. Another thing that bothers me is when people act like MJ is the undisputed GOAT. IMO, he's the GOAT, but it's not undisputed.

No, I don't agree with this, because when Kobe became a full time starter with Shaq, he avg more shots than Shaq over that span except one season

Playoffs
1999-00: Shaq 505 fga / Kobe 394 fga
2000-01: Shaq 344 fga / Kobe 358 fga
2001-02: Shaq 384 fga/ Kobe 431 fga


...2nd Shaq was drawing double and triple teams which gave Kobe a lot more one on one opportunities than MJ got which should have resulted in a higher percentage of made shots, yet it didn't...you can continue to act as if Shaq was someone that hindered Kobe's career, but how about we acknowledge the benefits....Kobe many times in those days would sit back and wait to take over....Jordan never had that luxury

And last but not least no one ever said there is this huge gap between MJ and Kobe ..but when it comes to playoff basketball there is as of now...if you want to add impact on world due to accomplishments on the court their is no comparison

[WADE MONEY]

20 pages book it.

we have a winner

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[raptorfan_dr07]

And that's Kobe first three-peat before Kobe was the to go man, before Kobe was in his prime and WHILE Kobe was sacrificing his individual statistics for Shaq to be the man. You don't think that's going to influence his statistics? Statistics are already a horrible, inaccurate way to argue, but when you take them out of context then they become 10000X worse. Kind of like what Calabis likes to do all day. "Ahem, guys, dude, MJ averaged like way more points as the man in his prime, in his best years of basketball than Kobe did when he was a 20 year old kid sacrificing his own stats so Shaq could be the man. Dude, I really think MJ is the best player of all time, I mean just look at his stats!"

Also, the '04 Pistons, '08 Celtics, and '10 Celtics are better than any team defensively that MJ has ever faced in the Finals. I can play this game too. 3 of Kobe's Finals teams >>>>>> ANY team MJ EVER faced in the Finals.

In my time on ISH, this is BY FAR, the DUMBEST F*CKING POST I've EVER READ. And this being ISH, that's saying something. Hey Kobe c*m guzzler, get this through your head: Kobe CAN NEVER AND WILL NEVER BE AS GOOD AS MICHAEL JORDAN. Jordan's worst finals performance is on par with Kobe's CAREER AVERAGE. CAN YOU F*CKING UNDERSTAND THAT or did your parents drop you on your head too much as a child that you lost all your braincells? Let's get a run down shall we?

Championships as "the man"

Jordan: 6
Kobe: 2

Finals MVPs

Jordan: 6
Kobe 2(and one could argue Pau Gasol was the MVP this year)

MVPs

Jordan: 5
Kobe: 1

DPOY

Jordan: 1
Kobe: 0

Seasons averaging 30+ points

Jordan: 9
Kobe: 2

Playoffs averaging 30+ points

Jordan: 12
Kobe: 4

Seasons averaging 6+ assists

Jordan: 7
Kobe: 3

Playoffs averaging 6+ assists

Jordan: 8
Kobe: 5

Seasons averaging 6+ rebounds

Jordan: 13
Kobe: 8

Playoffs averaging 6+ rebounds

Jordan: 11
Kobe: 6

Seasons averaging 2+ steals

Jordan: 14
Kobe: 9

Seasons shooting 50+%

Jordan: 8
Kobe: 0:roll: :roll:

Playoffs shooting 50+%

Jordan: 6
Kobe: 1

All Star Selections

Jordan: 14
Kobe: 12

All NBA First Team Selections

Jordan: 10
Kobe 8

All Defensive First Team Selections

Jordan: 9
Kobe 8

Jordan Career Finals Stats: 33.6 points, 6.0 rebounds, 6.0 assists, 48.1% FG

Kobe Career Finals Stats: 25.8 points, 6.5 rebounds, 4.4 assists, 41% FG

And for sh*ts and giggles, let's throw in these stats we don't we?

Women raped

Kobe: 1
Jordan: 0

Number of playoff series lost when leading 3-1

Kobe: 1
Jordan: 0

Number of times quit on team in Game 7

Kobe: 1
Jordan: 0

Number of 24 point leads choked away at home in critical Finals game(NBA record for biggest comeback in Finals history)

Kobe: 1
Jordan: 0

Number of 39 point blow out loss in close out Finals game(NBA record for worst lost in Finals history)

Kobe: 1
Jordan: 0

And by the way, the Bad Boys Pistons>>>>>>>>>>>ANYTHING Kobe's faced in the playoffs. Kobe cries like a b*tch to the refs anytime someone plays him physical, those Pistons would have sent his punk @$$ into retirement. I'd love to see Kobe get his sh*t f*cked up in the 80's and 90's instead of this p*ssy era he plays in.

[raptorfan_dr07]

And last but not least no one ever said there is this huge gap between MJ and Kobe ..but when it comes to playoff basketball there is as of now...if you want to add impact on world due to accomplishments on the court their is no comparison

Don't kid yourself, there is a GIGANTIC gap between Kobe and MJ. Kobe CAN NEVER AND WILL NEVER approach Jordan's level. It's impossible and he's fallen WAAAAAYYYYY short every chance he's gotten.

[DetroitPistonFan]

If Kobe fans or anyone compare him o Mike then yes he is overrated.He is nowhere to MJ.
Jordan was and is the best player ever at the post-season.Kobe isn't even a Top-10 ever playoff performer.
Actually, he is a pretty good playoff performer. Except in the Finals.

[Simple Jack]

You're not very smart. I'm not just conviently using Kobe's best Finals against MJ's worse. Kobe never played in the Finals in his prime. His first 3-peat, he was NOT in his prime and he was sacrificing his statistics for Shaq. Do you agree with this?

However, Kobe's current back-to-back is comparable to MJ's second three-peat. Does this make sense? Do you understand the words that are coming out of my mou---that I am typing?

to your edit: And Kobe destroyed other great teams, like the Spurs... so what?

double edit: Nowhere did I say Kobe > MJ, but MJ is not miles ahead. He was not a god. When watching him live, he had lots of horrible game. What bothers me is the abuse of statistics to therefore declare a "fact" that X > Y, and then it gets even worse when they are used so far out of context, like what you do. Another thing that bothers me is when people act like MJ is the undisputed GOAT. IMO, he's the GOAT, but it's not undisputed.

Why do all Kobe fans act as if statistics aren't indicative of what we see in a game? Kobe and Jordan played in nearly the same system, so it makes it even more of a logical comparison. Statistics shouldn't be used? Right, only subjective opinions from biased fans on a message board should be used.

[boozehound]

kobes FG% doesn't really demonstrate how well he shot in that series.
this is just too ****ing funny. really? Do you really think this?

[boozehound]

In my time on ISH, this is BY FAR, the DUMBEST F*CKING POST I've EVER READ. And this being ISH, that's saying something. Hey Kobe c*m guzzler, get this through your head: Kobe CAN NEVER AND WILL NEVER BE AS GOOD AS MICHAEL JORDAN. Jordan's worst finals performance is on par with Kobe's CAREER AVERAGE. CAN YOU F*CKING UNDERSTAND THAT or did your parents drop you on your head too much as a child that you lost all your braincells? Let's get a run down shall we?

Championships as "the man"

Jordan: 6
Kobe: 2

Finals MVPs

Jordan: 6
Kobe 2(and one could argue Pau Gasol was the MVP this year)

MVPs

Jordan: 5
Kobe: 1

DPOY

Jordan: 1
Kobe: 0

Seasons averaging 30+ points

Jordan: 9
Kobe: 2

Playoffs averaging 30+ points

Jordan: 12
Kobe: 4

Seasons averaging 6+ assists

Jordan: 7
Kobe: 3

Playoffs averaging 6+ assists

Jordan: 8
Kobe: 5

Seasons averaging 6+ rebounds

Jordan: 13
Kobe: 8

Playoffs averaging 6+ rebounds

Jordan: 11
Kobe: 6

Seasons averaging 2+ steals

Jordan: 14
Kobe: 9

Seasons shooting 50+%

Jordan: 8
Kobe: 0:roll: :roll:

Playoffs shooting 50+%

Jordan: 6
Kobe: 1

All Star Selections

Jordan: 14
Kobe: 12

All NBA First Team Selections

Jordan: 10
Kobe 8

All Defensive First Team Selections

Jordan: 9
Kobe 8

Jordan Career Finals Stats: 33.6 points, 6.0 rebounds, 6.0 assists, 48.1% FG

Kobe Career Finals Stats: 25.8 points, 6.5 rebounds, 4.4 assists, 41% FG

And for sh*ts and giggles, let's throw in these stats we don't we?

Women raped

Kobe: 1
Jordan: 0

Number of playoff series lost when leading 3-1

Kobe: 1
Jordan: 0

Number of times quit on team in Game 7

Kobe: 1
Jordan: 0

Number of 24 point leads choked away at home in critical Finals game(NBA record for biggest comeback in Finals history)

Kobe: 1
Jordan: 0

Number of 39 point blow out loss in close out Finals game(NBA record for worst lost in Finals history)

Kobe: 1
Jordan: 0

And by the way, the Bad Boys Pistons>>>>>>>>>>>ANYTHING Kobe's faced in the playoffs. Kobe cries like a b*tch to the refs anytime someone plays him physical, those Pistons would have sent his punk @$$ into retirement. I'd love to see Kobe get his sh*t f*cked up in the 80's and 90's instead of this p*ssy era he plays in.
well, this was a solid post till you starting baiting.

[Indian guy]

Average defensive ranking of the finalists MJ faced is 7. For Kobe it's 4. Not much of a difference. Let's stop making excuses for Kobe.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I'm surprised his '08 and '10 finals are getting slammed more than his '00 finals.

In 2000, he had one good game in the finals and shot just 37% while averaging a couple of more shot attempts than points. In 2010, he really didn't have a particularly bad series. He helped the team and was the best player in the series and in 2008, he was disappointing, but the first option on a team vs an all time great defense while not getting much help.

[chazzy]

In my time on ISH, this is BY FAR, the DUMBEST F*CKING POST I've EVER READ. And this being ISH, that's saying something. Hey Kobe c*m guzzler, get this through your head: Kobe CAN NEVER AND WILL NEVER BE AS GOOD AS MICHAEL JORDAN. Jordan's worst finals performance is on par with Kobe's CAREER AVERAGE. CAN YOU F*CKING UNDERSTAND THAT or did your parents drop you on your head too much as a child that you lost all your braincells? Let's get a run down shall we?

Championships as "the man"

Jordan: 6
Kobe: 2

Finals MVPs

Jordan: 6
Kobe 2(and one could argue Pau Gasol was the MVP this year)

MVPs

Jordan: 5
Kobe: 1

DPOY

Jordan: 1
Kobe: 0

Seasons averaging 30+ points

Jordan: 9
Kobe: 2

Playoffs averaging 30+ points

Jordan: 12
Kobe: 4

Seasons averaging 6+ assists

Jordan: 7
Kobe: 3

Playoffs averaging 6+ assists

Jordan: 8
Kobe: 5

Seasons averaging 6+ rebounds

Jordan: 13
Kobe: 8

Playoffs averaging 6+ rebounds

Jordan: 11
Kobe: 6

Seasons averaging 2+ steals

Jordan: 14
Kobe: 9

Seasons shooting 50+%

Jordan: 8
Kobe: 0:roll: :roll:

Playoffs shooting 50+%

Jordan: 6
Kobe: 1

All Star Selections

Jordan: 14
Kobe: 12

All NBA First Team Selections

Jordan: 10
Kobe 8

All Defensive First Team Selections

Jordan: 9
Kobe 8

Jordan Career Finals Stats: 33.6 points, 6.0 rebounds, 6.0 assists, 48.1% FG

Kobe Career Finals Stats: 25.8 points, 6.5 rebounds, 4.4 assists, 41% FG

And for sh*ts and giggles, let's throw in these stats we don't we?

Women raped

Kobe: 1
Jordan: 0

Number of playoff series lost when leading 3-1

Kobe: 1
Jordan: 0

Number of times quit on team in Game 7

Kobe: 1
Jordan: 0

Number of 24 point leads choked away at home in critical Finals game(NBA record for biggest comeback in Finals history)

Kobe: 1
Jordan: 0

Number of 39 point blow out loss in close out Finals game(NBA record for worst lost in Finals history)

Kobe: 1
Jordan: 0

And by the way, the Bad Boys Pistons>>>>>>>>>>>ANYTHING Kobe's faced in the playoffs. Kobe cries like a b*tch to the refs anytime someone plays him physical, those Pistons would have sent his punk @$$ into retirement. I'd love to see Kobe get his sh*t f*cked up in the 80's and 90's instead of this p*ssy era he plays in.

It's hilarious how ANGRY this guy gets over this stuff :oldlol:

[Heilige]

In my time on ISH, this is BY FAR, the DUMBEST F*CKING POST I've EVER READ. And this being ISH, that's saying something. Hey Kobe c*m guzzler, get this through your head: Kobe CAN NEVER AND WILL NEVER BE AS GOOD AS MICHAEL JORDAN. Jordan's worst finals performance is on par with Kobe's CAREER AVERAGE. CAN YOU F*CKING UNDERSTAND THAT or did your parents drop you on your head too much as a child that you lost all your braincells? Let's get a run down shall we?

Championships as "the man"

Jordan: 6
Kobe: 2

Finals MVPs

Jordan: 6
Kobe 2(and one could argue Pau Gasol was the MVP this year)

MVPs

Jordan: 5
Kobe: 1

DPOY

Jordan: 1
Kobe: 0

Seasons averaging 30+ points

Jordan: 9
Kobe: 2

Playoffs averaging 30+ points

Jordan: 12
Kobe: 4

Seasons averaging 6+ assists

Jordan: 7
Kobe: 3

Playoffs averaging 6+ assists

Jordan: 8
Kobe: 5

Seasons averaging 6+ rebounds

Jordan: 13
Kobe: 8

Playoffs averaging 6+ rebounds

Jordan: 11
Kobe: 6

Seasons averaging 2+ steals

Jordan: 14
Kobe: 9

Seasons shooting 50+%

Jordan: 8
Kobe: 0:roll: :roll:

Playoffs shooting 50+%

Jordan: 6
Kobe: 1

All Star Selections

Jordan: 14
Kobe: 12

All NBA First Team Selections

Jordan: 10
Kobe 8

All Defensive First Team Selections

Jordan: 9
Kobe 8

Jordan Career Finals Stats: 33.6 points, 6.0 rebounds, 6.0 assists, 48.1% FG

Kobe Career Finals Stats: 25.8 points, 6.5 rebounds, 4.4 assists, 41% FG

And for sh*ts and giggles, let's throw in these stats we don't we?

Women raped

Kobe: 1
Jordan: 0

Number of playoff series lost when leading 3-1

Kobe: 1
Jordan: 0

Number of times quit on team in Game 7

Kobe: 1
Jordan: 0

Number of 24 point leads choked away at home in critical Finals game(NBA record for biggest comeback in Finals history)

Kobe: 1
Jordan: 0

Number of 39 point blow out loss in close out Finals game(NBA record for worst lost in Finals history)

Kobe: 1
Jordan: 0

And by the way, the Bad Boys Pistons>>>>>>>>>>>ANYTHING Kobe's faced in the playoffs. Kobe cries like a b*tch to the refs anytime someone plays him physical, those Pistons would have sent his punk @$$ into retirement. I'd love to see Kobe get his sh*t f*cked up in the 80's and 90's instead of this p*ssy era he plays in.


Jordan didn't face the Bad Boys Pistons in the NBA Finals....

The post you are quoting mentions in the NBA Finals, Jordan has not faced a team as good as the 2004 Pistons, 2008 and 2010 Celtics from a defensive standpoint...

[gts]

In my time on ISH, this is BY FAR, the DUMBEST F*CKING POST I've EVER READ. And this being ISH, that's saying something. Hey Kobe c*m guzzler, get this through your head: Kobe CAN NEVER AND WILL NEVER BE AS GOOD AS MICHAEL JORDAN. Jordan's worst finals performance is on par with Kobe's CAREER AVERAGE. CAN YOU F*CKING UNDERSTAND THAT or did your parents drop you on your head too much as a child that you lost all your braincells? Let's get a run down shall we?

so if it's truly that dumb why don't you address what he said, (the part you bolded) instead of posting a bunch of stuff that actually does nothing to refute what he said?

[LA KB24]

In my time on ISH, this is BY FAR, the DUMBEST F*CKING POST I've EVER READ. And this being ISH, that's saying something. Hey Kobe c*m guzzler, get this through your head: Kobe CAN NEVER AND WILL NEVER BE AS GOOD AS MICHAEL JORDAN. Jordan's worst finals performance is on par with Kobe's CAREER AVERAGE. CAN YOU F*CKING UNDERSTAND THAT or did your parents drop you on your head too much as a child that you lost all your braincells? Let's get a run down shall we?



We all know this brah. No need to post your garbage again.

Only reason I posted those stats is because some people here act like MJ invented the game and is the basketball God, has never had a bad game or a bad series.

[gts]

Average defensive ranking of the finalists MJ faced is 7. For Kobe it's 4. Not much of a difference. Let's stop making excuses for Kobe.are you using the teams defensive ranking in the league that year?

you're much better off using the teams actual defensive ratings, not where they ranked in the nba that year

lets say you have a very poor defensive season, nobody plays defense and everyones defensive rating is 120 or higher... being number one in that crowd is not an accomplishment by any means...

then say in another season the leagues defenses are stingy, nobody gives up anything easy nobody scores over 100 points, and the number 5 team has a defensive rating of 92 ppg

so who played the stiffer defense, the player that faced the number one rated defense with a rating of 120 or the player who faced the number 5 defense with the 92 ppg?

i don't know the numbers for kobe mj debate don't care to spend that much time (today) but just using where the defenses ranked in any given season is not a indicator of anything

[LA KB24]

true. I think the Celtics alone proved that the regular season means jack shit.

[Soundwave]

He has faced the best defense in the finals 4 times in a row I think now, two of them were historically great and in contention for best defensive teams ever (he had a good series vs. Magic btw). Might want to check even MJ's stats vs. #1 ranked defenses in the 90s, they're not pretty.

Errr ... I guess I just imagined the Bulls playing the Knicks every year? (and the Pistons prior to that?). Who cares if it was the Finals or not. Best of 7, winner takes all, same thing.

[The_Yearning]

Errr ... I guess I just imagined the Bulls playing the Knicks every year? (and the Pistons prior to that?). Who cares if it was the Finals or not. Best of 7, winner takes all, same thing.

um LOL? This is a finals thread. You want to talk about series? SmH

[7_cody]

raptorfan, nice stats. I already said MJ >> Kobe ,but it has nothing to do with those stats. What are you trying to do anyway, agree with me?

You're not even refuting my point. Nothing you said addressed anything I talked about.

This thread, after all, is supposed to be about Kobe in the Finals. My argument so far has been that the one time MJ faced great defense, he didn't play that well (STATISTICALY speaking... he stilled played well, but idiots on ISH think that a good stat line = a good game, and that god stats is the only way to have a good game).

You don't think that an '05-'06 Kobe could light up a team say, like the '98 Jazz, or current Suns or whatever in the Finals for 33+ ppg and 53%+ shooting? Hell, that's what he did until he faced Durants length or great defense in the Finals.

[7_cody]

Average defensive ranking of the finalists MJ faced is 7. For Kobe it's 4. Not much of a difference. Let's stop making excuses for Kobe.

Another statistic that is used out of context and doesn't mean jack sh** :roll: :lol

If you tried to convince this to Phil Jackson, Alvin Gentry, or any Coach in the NBA -- you'd get laughed off the court.

Trust me, they don't look at these stats and go damn MJ faced just as great of defense as Kobe in the Finals. Scouts don't just look at stats and pick the highest PPG averages. They watch the game and look for insightful observations. They look for potential. There's so many things... wow, you really are one of those people that believe you can simply look at a persons statline to see how well they played, aren't you?

[Simple Jack]

raptorfan, nice stats. I already said MJ >> Kobe ,but it has nothing to do with those stats. What are you trying to do anyway, agree with me?

You're not even refuting my point. Nothing you said addressed anything I talked about.

This thread, after all, is supposed to be about Kobe in the Finals. My argument so far has been that the one time MJ faced great defense, he didn't play that well.

You don't think that an '05-'06 Kobe could light up a team say, like the '98 Jazz, or current Suns or whatever in the Finals for 33+ ppg and 53%+ shooting? Hell, that's what he did until he faced Durants length or great defense in the Finals.

Enough with dismissing stats. They support the notion that Michael Jordan is better than Kobe in nearly every which angle you can possibly think of.

[Allstar24]

'02, '09 = great
'01, '10 = decent
'00, '04, '08 = poor

[7_cody]

Enough with dismissing stats. They support the notion that Michael Jordan is better than Kobe in nearly every which angle you can possibly think of.

God, you're a fu***ng idiot. Do you read.

MJ >> Kobe

And no, they don't support that. You can't just say MJ stats > Kobe therefore MJ > Kobe. It's not that simple.

So you're telling me if a GM wants to know who the best player in the league is, all they have to do is find the player with the best stats? That's probably what you would do.

Stats are ok when they are used right. But even then, there's a lot that is not revealed. Do you have statistics that show hustle? Do you have statistics that show alter shots, or the magnitude that you affect a game with your mere presence. Do you have stats the show every single result of drawing double teams and how much it affects the total end score? Do you have stats that show mentorship, or leadership? I could go on forever.

MJ fg % 2-3% better than Kobe, therefore MJ >>>>>>>> Kobe in every way, no matter what era or what defense he faces, is not factual.

[7_cody]

Simple Jack, you complain because you think that your "points" are being dismissed.

Why aren't you refuting anything I say then? You haven't addressed any of my arguments.

[Indian guy]

Another statistic that is used out of context and doesn't mean jack sh** :roll: :lol

How is it out of context, dumbo? Statistics clearly indicate that MJ faced plenty of good/great defensive teams in his 6 trips to the NBA Finals. Yet his production far outnumbers Kobe's. So what exactly is the problem here?


I already said MJ >> Kobe ,but it has nothing to do with those stats.

Then do enlighten us, o wise one. What's your reasoning behind MJ>Kobe?

[7_cody]

How is it out of context, dumbo? We're comparing how both fared against the TOP defensive teams of their time. What's the problem here?



Then do enlighten us, o wise one. What's your reasoning behind considering MJ>Kobe?

No, we're not talking about top defenses of their time. We're talking about top defenses of all time. It's out of context. It doesn't mean anything. The NJ Nets were a top ranked defensive team when the Lakers faced them.... do you really think MJ would struggle against that team?

I watch both play (MJ and Kobe). MJ was more efficient (not because of his fg %). He took easier, smarter shots. He boxed out more. He was more consistent on defense. He didn't roam near as much as Kobe does. He didn't waste time taking 3 point shots. He always looked for the easy shot, not the hard one. I guess I'm trying to say shot selection is a major reason.

I also felt like MJ didn't settle for jump shots as much as Kobe did. Kobe always shoots well when he attacks, but he never does it. My personal theory is that it's because he want play a style that will keep him at a top level in the NBA for a much longer time. He's a volume shooter, a jump shooter, but he can score in any possible way needed, when needed. MJ wasn't like that, he slashed, he took easier shots. It's the same way I LOVE DWade.... ATTACK THE BASKET. But I still don't think DWade > Kobe.

I'm not gonna try and say that Kobe > Derek Fisher because of his PPG. Im just gonna be like, here's what I see when watching them play and here's what everyone else thinks (coaches, players, GM's, etc).

[Simple Jack]

God, you're a fu***ng idiot. Do you read.

MJ >> Kobe

And no, they don't support that. You can't just say MJ stats > Kobe therefore MJ > Kobe. It's not that simple.

So you're telling me if a GM wants to know who the best player in the league is, all they have to do is find the player with the best stats? That's probably what you would do.

Stats are ok when they are used right. But even then, there's a lot that is not revealed. Do you have statistics that show hustle? Do you have statistics that show alter shots, or the magnitude that you affect a game with your mere presence. Do you have stats the show every single result of drawing double teams and how much it affects the total end score? Do you have stats that show mentorship, or leadership? I could go on forever.

MJ fg % 2-3% better than Kobe, therefore MJ >>>>>>>> Kobe in every way, no matter what era or what defense he faces, is not factual.

MJ stats being better than Kobe verify what we already know and see on the court. It's not a coincidence that Jordan has some of the best statistical seasons of all time all while being the GOAT.

Do you understand that if hustle has some impact on the court, it will probably, or often times will show in the stats? If it doesn't, then who cares? There are stats that show if you affected the shot; your opponents FG%. Leadership, if effective, will also show. Players will play better, your team will win more games, etc...

And no, GM's should make a decision and verify it with statistics. It's not a coincidence that most of the best players of all-time, and season by season, are the best players in the league? What were Shaq's finals stats in 2000? Was he the best player in that series? What was Jordan's best finals series? What were his stats? Wade was unbelievable in his final series, right? What were his stats?

You keep lowering MJ's FG% difference from Kobe. MJ scoring more, at a higher %, on a more consistent basis, = him being a better/more efficient scorer than Kobe.

[Simple Jack]

No, we're not talking about top defenses of their time. We're talking about top defenses of all time. It's out of context. It doesn't mean anything. The NJ Nets were a top ranked defensive team when the Lakers faced them.... do you really think MJ would struggle against that team?

I watch both play (MJ and Kobe). MJ was more efficient (not because of his fg %). He took easier, smarter shots. He boxed out more. He was more consistent on defense. He didn't roam near as much as Kobe does. He didn't waste time taking 3 point shots. He always looked for the easy shot, not the hard one. I guess I'm trying to say shot selection is a major reason.

I also felt like MJ didn't settle for jump shots as much as Kobe did. Kobe always shoots well when he attacks, but he never does it. My personal theory is that it's because he want play a style that will keep him at a top level in the NBA for a much longer time. He's a volume shooter, a jump shooter, but he can score in any possible way needed, when needed. MJ wasn't like that, he slashed, he took easier shots. It's the same way I LOVE DWade.... ATTACK THE BASKET. But I still don't think DWade > Kobe.

I'm not gonna try and say that Kobe > Derek Fisher because of his PPG. Im just gonna be like, here's what I see when watching them play and here's what everyone else thinks (coaches, players, GM's, etc).

AND THIS IS VERIFIED BY THE FACT THAT JORDAN SCORED MORE POINTS AT A HIGHER %.

[7_cody]

MJ stats being better than Kobe verify what we already know and see on the court. It's not a coincidence that Jordan has some of the best statistical seasons of all time all while being the GOAT.

Do you understand that if hustle has some impact on the court, it will probably, or often times will show in the stats? If it doesn't, then who cares? There are stats that show if you affected the shot; your opponents FG%. Leadership, if effective, will also show. Players will play better, your team will win more games, etc...

And no, GM's should make a decision and verify it with statistics. It's not a coincidence that most of the best players of all-time, and season by season, are the best players in the league? What were Shaq's finals stats in 2000? Was he the best player in that series? What was Jordan's best finals series? What were his stats? Wade was unbelievable in his final series, right? What were his stats?

You keep lowering MJ's FG% difference from Kobe. MJ scoring more, at a higher %, on a more consistent basis, = him being a better/more efficient scorer than Kobe.

If you were right, then the Lakers would have gotten rid of Bynum a long time ago. Damn he sucks. Just look at his stats.

What you said about stats backing up what you see is true sometimes, but it is not reliable. There are millions of elements that come into play.

You missed my point about a statistic. I also like how you ignored my other examples. My point, because you didn't understand it, was that most things aren't even measurable in statistics.

[7_cody]

AND THIS IS VERIFIED BY THE FACT THAT JORDAN SCORED MORE POINTS AT A HIGHER %.

Yes, but you can't just look at his stats and know he had great shot selection. You had to watch him play.

You can't be like, MJ fg % > Kobe, therefore MJ >>>> efficient than Kobe. It's a weak argument.

No one has been arguing for MJ with observations or what they saw. If you were using statistics that way, I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it. But you arent'.

[Simple Jack]

If you were right, then the Lakers would have gotten rid of Bynum a long time ago. Damn he sucks. Just look at his stats.

What you said about stats backing up what you see is true sometimes, but it is not reliable. There are millions of elements that come into play.

You missed my point about a statistic. I also like how you ignored my other examples. My point, because you didn't understand it, was that most things aren't even measurable in statistics.

Bynum when he started was something like 15/8 in 30 min a game. 1.5 blocks too on 57% FG. Hardly a slouch.

And I made the point, which you don't understand, is that most things, if they impact the game, will show up in some type of statistic.

[Simple Jack]

Yes, but you can't just look at his stats and know he had great shot selection. You had to watch him play.

You can't be like, MJ fg % > Kobe, therefore MJ >>>> efficient than Kobe. It's a weak argument.

No one has been arguing for MJ with observations or what they saw. If you were using statistics that way, I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it. But you arent'.

No one is using statistics that way. The premise is that Jordan is more efficient than Kobe (based on what we see). The proof is in the statistics.

[7_cody]

No one is using statistics that way. The premise is that Jordan is more efficient than Kobe (based on what we see). The proof is in the statistics.

What? Are you reading the same forum I am??

Statistics are not proof of anything... damn, we're going round and round now.

They sometimes verify what we see. Not always. Most (edit: well, I probably shouldn't go that far -- A LOT of things) things that impact the game do NOT show up in stats.

I promise you, NBA experts and scouts will watch a game and know who they thought the great players were without ever having to look at the stats. They also might preferred the guy with the worst stats. Maybe his defense was amazing.

This is going nowhere fast. You have your opinion, I have mine.

[Simple Jack]

What? Are you reading the same forum I am??

Statistics are not proof of anything... damn, we're going round and round now.

They sometimes verify what we see. Not always. Most (edit: well, I probably shouldn't go that far -- A LOT of things) things that impact the game do NOT show up in stats.

I promise you, NBA experts and scouts will watch a game and know who they thought the great players were without ever having to look at the stats. They also might preferred the guy with the worst stats. Maybe his defense was amazing.

This is going nowhere fast. You have your opinion, I have mine.


If the guys defense was amazing and effective, it can be verified by looking at the other persons FG and shot attempts.

Statistics are FOR SURE proof of things. Often times, they may tell us the truth behind a game, objectively. You have no idea how many times I'll watch a game with someone who thought a player played well because the degree of his shots that he made were difficult; looking at the stat sheet, you'll see the player shot 6/20. Watching alone would have you believe this guy played great because those 6 shots he took were incredibly difficult but the truth is, he didn't play well.

I can't think of a time where a player is in a "slump" yet has great stats. Or he was on a hot streak yet had terrible stats. It doesn't work that way.

Anyway, I'll stick to objective reasoning that verifies what I see in games rather than subjective reasoning that solely relies on my own viewing which admittedly may contain some bias.

[Indian guy]

No, we're not talking about top defenses of their time. We're talking about top defenses of all time. It's out of context.

I see. So you've taken it upon yourself to deem which defense is all-time and which isn't? Even if I do buy into your agenda, then Kobe has only faced 2 historical defensive teams - the '04 Pistons and the '08 Celtics. What's the excuse for his mediocre production against the other 5 opponents? Obviously, you don't have one.

Of all the all-time-greats, Kobe's the lone one who hasn't managed to produce like one on the game's biggest stage. He faced "great defensive teams" is a bogus excuse. 90% of the teams that make the NBA Finals happen to be great defensive teams. That didn't stop other greats, particularly MJ, from producing top numbers. Kobe doesn't have an excuse. Let's admit he isn't good enough and move on.


I watch both play (MJ and Kobe). MJ was more efficient (not because of his fg %).

Statistics back what we see on the court. They aren't the be all end all of determining a player's impact, but it's still the most accurate summary of what a player does on the court. You wouldn't believe any of this
He took easier, smarter shots. He boxed out more. He was more consistent on defense. He didn't roam near as much as Kobe does. He didn't waste time taking 3 point shots. He always looked for the easy shot, not the hard one. I guess I'm trying to say shot selection is a major reason. if MJ didn't shoot a far higher % than Kobe. There are plenty of stars in the league who play a smarter game than Kobe, but you don't consider them better than Kobe, do you? Why - STATISTICS. Stop pretending that most of your reasoning isn't based on numbers. You'd never consider MJ better than Kobe if he wasn't statistically superior.


My personal theory is that it's because he want play a style that will keep him at a top level in the NBA for a much longer time.

You mean like...MJ?

[7_cody]

If the guys defense was amazing and effective, it can be verified by looking at the other persons FG and shot attempts.

Statistics are FOR SURE proof of things. Often times, they may tell us the truth behind a game, objectively. You have no idea how many times I'll watch a game with someone who thought a player played well because the degree of his shots that he made were difficult; looking at the stat sheet, you'll see the player shot 6/20. Watching alone would have you believe this guy played great because those 6 shots he took were incredibly difficult but the truth is, he didn't play well.

Anyway, I'll stick to objective reasoning that verifies what I see in games rather than subjective reasoning that solely relies on my own viewing which admittedly may contain some bias.

Actually, if I saw someone miss 14 shots an dmake only 6... I'm sure I would have noticed that he was missing a lot. Depending on why he was missing, I might still think he had a bad game.

Looking at someone elses shot attempts and shots made does not mean great defense. It's possible to play GREAT defense and have the other player score 35 ppg on 48% + shooting (Kobe v. Battier).

Statistics do not always verify what you see. You could argue that shot attempts is factual for how many shots a player took, but you can't use it for other things like efficiency, who the better player is. See how low the capabilities of statistics are?

[Calabis]

God, you're a fu***ng idiot. Do you read.

MJ >> Kobe

And no, they don't support that. You can't just say MJ stats > Kobe therefore MJ > Kobe. It's not that simple.

So you're telling me if a GM wants to know who the best player in the league is, all they have to do is find the player with the best stats? That's probably what you would do.

Stats are ok when they are used right. But even then, there's a lot that is not revealed. Do you have statistics that show hustle? Do you have statistics that show alter shots, or the magnitude that you affect a game with your mere presence. Do you have stats the show every single result of drawing double teams and how much it affects the total end score? Do you have stats that show mentorship, or leadership? I could go on forever.

MJ fg % 2-3% better than Kobe, therefore MJ >>>>>>>> Kobe in every way, no matter what era or what defense he faces, is not factual.


Actually yes they do use stats......they look at things such as shooting percentage going to right, shooting percentage going to his left, his tendencies, when going left, his tendencies going left...how do you think they build a defensive gameplan against a player....STATS that is how.

Need more

http://www.interbasket.net/news/2009/02/20/nba-scouting-report-manu-ginobili-has-no-weaknesses/

Sounds like stats play a vital role

also yes I'm sure the have hustle stats, here is one example I found from a Florida asst coach

http://coachingbetterbball.blogspot.com/2009/11/larry-shyatt-notes-on-keeping-track-of.html

[7_cody]

I see. So you've taken it upon yourself to deem which defense is all-time and which isn't? Even if I do buy into your agenda, then Kobe has only faced 2 historical defensive teams - the '04 Pistons and the '08 Celtics. What's the excuse for his mediocre production against the other 5 opponents? Obviously, you don't have.

Of all the all-time-greats, Kobe's the lone one who hasn't managed to produce like one on the game's biggest stage. He faced "great defensive teams" is a bogus excuse. 90% of the teams that make the NBA Finals happen to be great defensive teams. That didn't stop other greats, particularly MJ, from producing top numbers. Kobe doesn't have an excuse. Let's admit he isn't good enough and move on.



Statistics back what we see on the court. They aren't the be all end all of determining a player's impact, but it's still the most accurate summary of what a player does on the court. You wouldn't believe any of this if MJ didn't shoot a far higher % than Kobe. There are plenty of players in the league who play a smarter game than Kobe, but you don't consider them better than Kobe, do you? Why - STATISTICS. Stop pretending that most of your reasoning isn't based on numbers. You'd never consider MJ better than Kobe if he wasn't statistically superior.


You mean like...MJ?

You're bolded was a good point. I had to think about it for a second. If I noticed all the same things about MJ )better shot selection, easier shots, more consistency, more slashing, attacking) and he still had worse statistics than Kobe, then I might wonder why. Kobe is obviously better if he takes more difficult shots and still outperforms statistically. But I've have to watch both of them play to make my decision. Could just be that MJ had a bad season or was missing a lot of good looks.

And I disagree, KObe did not play like crap in the last Finals. But I guess you looked at his 41% FG or whatever it was and determined that he played like sh**. Nice.

[7_cody]

Actually yes they do use stats......they look at things such as shooting percentage going to right, shooting percentage going to his left, his tendencies, when going left, his tendencies going left...how do you think they build a defensive gameplan against a player....STATS that is how.

Need more

http://www.interbasket.net/news/2009/02/20/nba-scouting-report-manu-ginobili-has-no-weaknesses/

Sounds like stats play a vital role

You didn't get my point. I didn't mean to say that don't use stats, maybe that's why you misunderstood. I'm just saying it's not as easy as looking at the stats and then making a decision. The capabilities of statistics isn't as great as you think it is. Not everything is measurable.

[Simple Jack]

You didn't get my point. I didn't mean to say that don't use stats, maybe that's why you misunderstood. I'm just saying it's not as easy as looking at the stats and then making a decision. The capabilities of statistics isn't as great as you think it is. Not everything is measurable.

Most things are. And again, if those "unmeasurable" things impact the game, they probably are too.

[Simple Jack]

Actually, if I saw someone miss 14 shots an dmake only 6... I'm sure I would have noticed that he was missing a lot. Depending on why he was missing, I might still think he had a bad game.

Looking at someone elses shot attempts and shots made does not mean great defense. It's possible to play GREAT defense and have the other player score 35 ppg on 48% + shooting (Kobe v. Battier).

Statistics do not always verify what you see. You could argue that shot attempts is factual for how many shots a player took, but you can't use it for other things like efficiency, who the better player is. See how low the capabilities of statistics are?

Battier may have played, or rather TRIED to play great defense, but in the sense of the word; defense is stopping the other playing from scoring, or affecting their shot in order to make them shoot worse than they normally would, which he did not do in that situation.

In any event, you keep bringing up defense; how about you stick to the discussion and give examples using offense?

[Simple Jack]

You're bolded was a good point. I had to think about it for a second. If I noticed all the same things about MJ )better shot selection, easier shots, more consistency, more slashing, attacking) and he still had worse statistics than Kobe, then I might wonder why. Kobe is obviously better if he takes more difficult shots and still outperforms statistically. But I've have to watch both of them play to make my decision. Could just be that MJ had a bad season or was missing a lot of good looks.

And I disagree, KObe did not play like crap in the last Finals. But I guess you looked at his 41% FG or whatever it was and determined that he played like sh**. Nice.

Why are you switching arguments now? The % in FG was used to compare 2 players, and determine who was more efficient. Certainly if Kobe shot 41% and scored 28 ppg, while Jordan scored 30 at 53%, Jordan was the more efficient scorer, no?

For the life of me, I can't understand how someone can argue that less PPG, at a lower %, is more efficient...

[7_cody]

Why are you switching arguments now? The % in FG was used to compare 2 players, and determine who was more efficient. Certainly if Kobe shot 41% and scored 28 ppg, while Jordan scored 30 at 53%, Jordan was the more efficient scorer, no?

For the life of me, I can't understand how someone can argue that less PPG, at a lower %, is more efficient...

You still can't read. It might be, and it might not be. You have to watch the games. But that's one of those statistics that probably would verify what we see more often than not. What if I had my 10 year old brother guarding me, and I made all 10 of my layups. That's 100% shooting. Am I more efficient than Michael Jordan now? (an extreme example, but you get my point - you can't just look at the stats)

Anyway, get back to ya tonight if I can

[Simple Jack]

You still can't read. It might be, and it might not be. You have to watch the games. But that's one of those statistics that probably would verify what we see more often than not. What if I had my 10 year old brother guarding me, and I made all 10 of my layups. That's 100% shooting. Am I more efficient than Michael Jordan now? (an extreme example, but you get my point - you can't just look at the stats)

Anyway, get back to ya tonight if I can


Did you just compare you shooting 100% against your brother to Jordan playing in the NBA and scoring at a high %?

If we both played against your brother, or in the same league, and I scored 5 points at 50%, then yes, you were more efficient.

And it's sample size; we are talking about huge sample sizes. It's not a single game; it's 82 games, again and again, which help us establish who is the more efficient scorer. I understand that one game, or even a few, may not be indicative of how good a player is, but a 15 year career, vs a 14 year career is highly indicative of a players efficiency.

[whoartthou]

imo, one does not need to look at statistics or anything of that nature to determine if mj > kobe. If you have watched mj in the postseason and regular season, and have watched kobe in the post season and regular season, you would know who is the superior of the two.