What if Penny Hardaway never got injured?

[chillfan23]

Could he have been the next Magic Johnson?

Here are the Rookie and Sophmore years:

Magic (6'8" 215): Fresh: 18 ppg 7.3 apg 7.7 rpg
Soph: 21.6 ppg 8.6 apg 8.6 apg

Penny (6'7" 195 lbs): Fresh: 16 ppg 6.6 apg 5.4 rpg
Soph: 20.9 ppg 7.2 apg 4.4 rpg

Magic was one of the greatest of all time and through two years Penny was up there...was there hope for penny?

[miles berg]

Anfernee Hardaway wasnt on the same planet as Magic Johnson. Simply put, Anfernee Hardaway was the most overrated player in the modern era of the NBA.

[chillfan23]

Anfernee Hardaway wasnt on the same planet as Magic Johnson. Simply put, Anfernee Hardaway was the most overrated player in the modern era of the NBA.

how so?

[zORi]

Anfernee Hardaway wasnt on the same planet as Magic Johnson. Simply put, Anfernee Hardaway was the most overrated player in the modern era of the NBA.
:roll: :roll:
LOL, that was so wrong it's unreal.

[Kellogs4toniee]

Could he have been the next Magic Johnson?

Here are the Rookie and Sophmore years:

Magic (6'8" 215): Fresh: 18 ppg 7.3 apg 7.7 rpg
Soph: 21.6 ppg 8.6 apg 8.6 apg

Penny (6'7" 195 lbs): Fresh: 16 ppg 6.6 apg 5.4 rpg
Soph: 20.9 ppg 7.2 apg 4.4 rpg

Magic was one of the greatest of all time and through two years Penny was up there...was there hope for penny?

The comparison is pretty mute. The first two years Magic averaged 8.2 rebounds per game. For a man his size, Penny's averages of 5 RPG's is nothing stunning. What made Magic so great was he packed up power forward / center rebound numbers, while packing up 10+ assists later in his career to go along with 20 + PPG. Penny's rebounding numbers those first two years are average at best. In addition, his assists would dip significantly lower in only a few years.

Hence, no because there was no hope to begin with. Even extrapolating Penny's numbers as if he never got injured would never bring him into the same stratosphere as Magic.

Penny was a great player, but bad comparison. I consider Penny as a flashier Scottie Pippen, with better play-making and scoring but worse defense and rebounding.

[Niytrus]

Penny was/is my favorite player of all time, and while I have no doubt he would have remained a superstar on and off the court w/o the injuries, he wasn't on Magic's level. People loved him though and he was on his way to super-stardom off the court no doubt. He would have been a great player, but to put him on Magic's level from what we saw in his limited prime isn't fair.

[chillfan23]

The comparison is pretty mute. The first two years Magic averaged 8.2 rebounds per game. For a man his size, Penny's averages of 5 RPG's is nothing stunning. What made Magic so great was he packed up power forward / center rebound numbers, while packing up 10+ assists later in his career to go along with 20 + PPG. Penny's rebounding numbers those first two years are average at best. In addition, his assists would dip significantly lower in only a few years.

Hence, no because there was no hope to begin with. Even extrapolating Penny's numbers as if he never got injured would never bring him into the same stratosphere as Magic.

Penny was a great player, but bad comparison. I consider Penny as a flashier Scottie Pippen, with better play-making and scoring but worse defense and rebounding.

hey man, that's very fair...i never thought of it like that before...he still has fly shoes tho haha

[AirJordan23]

Penny definitely gets overrated by the YouTube generation. I've heard people say he was as good as Wade and Kobe or he would be the best PG in the game today and a top 5 player overall. These statements are not close to being true. I wouldn't say he was ridiculously overrated at the time he was playing but definitely overhyped.

OP, he was getting Magic comparisons but so were Steve Smith and Walt "the f*cking Wizard" Williams. They don't mean much really. Penny got Magic comparisons due to his ability to run a team, court vision, post game and versatility but anyone who watched him knew he wasn't on his level. He was actually more athletic than Magic but not as strong. Penny had game, though. Nobody would deny that. He would take a stutter dribble, do a slight hesitation and then explode his way to the rim. He also had a nice post game. Up and unders, spin moves and a sweet turnaround jumpshot. Had some nice footwork down low. His passing was great too. Amazing court vision and he had the type of passes that you made you get the WTF look. Behind the back, no look, through the legs, you name it. He was a good shooter as well especially mid range. 3 was ok. But, he did benefit from the shortened 3 point line. Solid defender too. For the quickness, he exhibited on the offensive end, it never translated to his defense. And he had a lot of hype and flash to his game like I said before. I wanna say he was a top 5 player in the league for a certain period of time. I'd say early in the '96 season where Shaq was out and he led Orlando to a great start. And he was putting up 27 a game with the usual assists and rebounds. Orlando in 1997 also had a great record when Penny played. And who can forget his great series against the Heat which was arguably the best defensive team in the league at that point along with CHI. Exploded in games 3 and 4 and literally carried them to victory. Torched Lenard and he dropped Timbug (not sure if it was cause of the actual move though). And Orlando had a bunch of injuries that series too. Put up 31 a game that series on good %.

The Magic staff definitely talked highly of him. Said he had the ability to drop 30 a game but they had to get the ball down low to Shaq. And they didn't really need him to do it. He was clutch btw. Great in the in 1995 finals. Barkley said he was the third best player in the league that year behind Dream and Shaq. But, close to Magic? No.

[chillfan23]

Penny definitely gets overrated by the YouTube generation. I've heard people say he was as good as Wade and Kobe or he would be the best PG in the game today and a top 5 player overall. These statements are not close to being true. I wouldn't say he was ridiculously overrated at the time he was playing but definitely overhyped.

OP, he was getting Magic comparisons but so were Steve Smith and Walt "the f*cking Wizard" Williams. They don't mean much really. Penny got Magic comparisons due to his ability to run a team, court vision, post game and versatility but anyone who watched him knew he wasn't on his level. He was actually more athletic than Magic but not as strong. Penny had game, though. Nobody would deny that. He would take a stutter dribble, do a slight hesitation and then explode his way to the rim. He also had a nice post game. Up and unders, spin moves and a sweet turnaround jumpshot. Had some nice footwork down low. His passing was great too. Amazing court vision and he had the type of passes that you made you get the WTF look. Behind the back, no look, through the legs, you name it. He was a good shooter as well especially mid range. 3 was ok. But, he did benefit from the shortened 3 point line. Solid defender too. For the quickness, he exhibited on the offensive end, it never translated to his defense. And he had a lot of hype and flash to his game like I said before. I wanna say he was a top 5 player in the league for a certain period of time. I'd say early in the '96 season where Shaq was out and he led Orlando to a great start. And he was putting up 27 a game with the usual assists and rebounds. Orlando in 1997 also had a great record when Penny played. And who can forget his great series against the Heat which was arguably the best defensive team in the league at that point along with CHI. Exploded in games 3 and 4 and literally carried them to victory. Torched Lenard and he dropped Timbug (not sure if it was cause of the actual move though). And Orlando had a bunch of injuries that series too. Put up 31 a game that series on good %.

The Magic staff definitely talked highly of him. Said he had the ability to drop 30 a game but they had to get the ball down low to Shaq. And they didn't really need him to do it. He was clutch btw. Great in the in 1995 finals. Barkley said he was the third best player in the league that year behind Dream and Shaq. But, close to Magic? No.

everyone here makes great points...to further fuel the discussion, here's the article that led me to post this topic...

http://www.fanfeedr.com/nba/2009/08/12/orlando-magic-retired-jerseys-anfernee-penny-hardaway-part-ii

[97 bulls]

Could he have been the next Magic Johnson?

Here are the Rookie and Sophmore years:

Magic (6'8" 215): Fresh: 18 ppg 7.3 apg 7.7 rpg
Soph: 21.6 ppg 8.6 apg 8.6 apg

Penny (6'7" 195 lbs): Fresh: 16 ppg 6.6 apg 5.4 rpg
Soph: 20.9 ppg 7.2 apg 4.4 rpg

Magic was one of the greatest of all time and through two years Penny was up there...was there hope for penny?
You guys can't just go solely on stats. I see no reason why penny couldn't do the exact same thing as magic. Its just that magic ran that fast break offense which inflates the stats comparison. And penny was a farrr better defender.

Let me ask this question, if magic is in pennys role, and sharing rebounds with a young shaq, and horace grant, does he still get 7-9 rebounds a game? Cuz id say hardaway shared the rebounding duties with farrrr superior rebounders.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I thought Penny was phenomenal and I don't think the stats do him justice. He had the rare ability to step his game up in the playoffs, his shot selection was very good and he was unselfish.

His skillset was great as well. He had the size and athletic ability of the best swingmen, but the passing and ball handling skills of a point guard. He often posted up guards, was dangerous in the open court, a very good finisher, could hit 3s and a good mid-range shooter.

And as I said the numbers don't do him justice, but when he was asked to carry the team early in 1995-1996 in Shaq's absence, he averaged 27 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 6.5 apg and 2.2 spg on 51% shooting. The Magic were 20-8 without Shaq thanks to Penny. He finished 3rd in MVP voting.

The following year, he had his first injury-plagued season and Shaq was replaced by Rony Seikaly, but the Magic were still 45-37 and that was with Grant missing 15 games, Nick Anderson missing 16 games, Dennis Scott missing 19 games and Rony Seikaly missing 8 games and the team was 38-21 with Penny, but just 7-16 without him. As you can see, he was a winner.

In the 1997 playoffs, we saw the last glimpse of what Penny could have been when he averaged 31 ppg vs Pat Riley's Heat in the playoffs. Orlando was down 0-2 and Penny had back to back 40 point games to extend it to a deciding 5th game.

He was plagued by injuries after his 3rd season, but he got better each of his first 3 so I'd bet he could have gotten quite a bit better. One of my favorite players of all time, definitely among my favorite growing up.

[Lebron23]

Nope

I am a huge Penny Hardaway fan. Magic is better than Penny. If he didn't get injured he's definitely a first ballot HOF. Young Penny beat John Stockton and Gary Payton in the All NBA First team.

[Faptastrophe]

I do wonder how good Penny could've been, though. He improved each of his first 3 seasons, seemed to be able to handle playoff pressure and even after an injury-plagued 4th season, he dropped back to back 40+ point games on Pat Riley's Heat, iirc, who were a great defensive team.

I loved Penny's game, he could post up and had a good mid-range game, could obviously take his man off the dribble, he was a very good finisher, he was unselfish and a great playmaker.

[9512]

off the court his reputation suffered somewhat.

Wasn't it Penny who orchestrated the firing of coach Brian Hill?

He seemed to have a boring personality not unlike Tim Duncan's and they had to invent the lil Penny doll (voiced by chris Rock) to make him more appealing in his shoe commercials?

I just wouldn't see him doing broadcasting a la Charles/Kenny/CWebb etc...

Like a lot of posters on this thread, I grew up watching the guy...The 95 finals was an awesome showing by him even though they got swept. Penny was an athletic magic johnson with the same skill set. I don't think he operated on the same level as Magic though. Magic was on another stratosphere.

[East_Stone_Ya]

i love these threads..fanboys or haters gonna give their ridiculous opinions

[jbryan1984]

Yeah, its crazy what happened to Penny. When he was in Orlando, he was such a huge star, everybody knew who he was. The little penny commercials, loved everyone about Penny and was a fan of the mid 90s Orlando Magic teams.

[JohnnySic]

If Penny never got hurt, he would have gotten exposed as being just a very good player but not a great one. Ironically, his injury has helped his legacy in a sense.
Magic Johnson LMAO.............

[JohnnySic]

Anfernee Hardaway wasnt on the same planet as Magic Johnson. Simply put, Anfernee Hardaway was the most overrated player in the modern era of the NBA.
YUP. I've been a fan since the mid 80's and cannot think of annyone who got more overrated than Penny.

[Collie]

If Penny never got hurt, he would have gotten exposed as being just a very good player but not a great one. Ironically, his injury has helped his legacy in a sense.
Magic Johnson LMAO.............

This is what I think as well. As a player, he was closer to Micheal Ray Richardson with more explosive and efficient offense than Magic. I actually think Penny would have made a better SG than a PG, since he was a very very good scorer, and a very good -but not great- passer. Think Dwyane Wade with better creativity, and that's what I remember of Penny as a passer.

He was an excellent second star, or a premier star on a good team, but ultimately, not someone you could have build a dynasty around, unlike Magic.

He was a big big favorite of my generation, because he was flashy, athletic, good looking and represented the new generation of stars. It also helped that he played on the most exciting young team in the league. The little man to Shaq's big man - exactly like how we viewed 00-02 Kobe, except even better since Penny was charming unlike the aloof Kobe.

[Aussie Dunker]

If Penny never got injured he would of been half the player Grant Hill would of been if he also didn't get injured :pimp:

[JohnnySic]

Another factoid in Penny's legacy is that he was involved in what was probably the worst trade in NBA history. Had the Magic kept Chris Webber, they would/could have dominated the NBA for 10 years.

People forget how good Chris Webber was, or they just dont know. They think of the Sacramento Kings Webber, who was just a shadow of the younger, more explosive one. Maybe Webber never gets injured had he played in Orlando, and kept his athleticism, rather than becoming a grounded player.

Shaq + Webber would have been too much for anyone. They probably take 2-3 rings from the Rockets/Bulls, and maybe Shaq decides to stick around. The Shaq/Kobe thing never happens, the Sactown Kings dont happen, and its Shaq/Webber vs Duncan/Robinson and against who knows what else?

The history of the league was turned on its head, all because of one baffling, unnecessary, and ultimately gawdawful trade.

[FatComputerNerd]

The other Hardaway was always a better PG.

People were just enamored with Penny because they hadn't seen a tall PG who could score like that for a while.

I remember the year Timmy was supposed to be in the ASG. Penny had been injured until the all-star break and hadn't played. The moronic fans still voted him in though, and sure enough, he stole Timmy's spot.

[OhNoTimNoSho]

We would have never invaded Iraq.

[Bigsmoke]

lol

[guy]

He's overrated when people say he was as good as Kobe, Wade, Lebron (when he's at his best and not shrinking), or a prime T-Mac. Same goes for Grant Hill. But I do think that if he stayed healthy and Shaq never left Orlando they could've been more dominant then the Shaq/Kobe Lakers, just for the simple fact that you could probably pencil them into every single Finals from 99 to 03 in the very weak East and would've had a much more easier road there then whatever beat up Western Conference team they would've had to face.

[chocolatethunder]

If Penny never got hurt, he would have gotten exposed as being just a very good player but not a great one. Ironically, his injury has helped his legacy in a sense.
Magic Johnson LMAO.............
Damn. Finally a voice of reason on this board.

[Scholar]

Penny was never on Magic's level, but I think he would've definitely been an arguable case for one of the best NBA players of all-time had he not been injured.

Same goes for Grant Hill and Tracy McGrady.

[JohnnySic]

To draw up a hypothetical: Imagine how highly regarded Vince Carter would be had he injured his knee after his 3rd season, stumbled around at half speed for a few years and then faded away. What would his legacy be? People would remember the dunk contest, his playoff explosions, the 27 ppg, the comparisons to MJ (before Kobe stole that one), etc etc etc.

"OMYGOD! Omygodomygodohmygod! Vince would have been better than MJ! He was awesome! He was the best dunker! He would have been an all-time great, but he just got hurt!"

In a nutshell, that's Penny's legacy. Getting injured and not experiencing the *downfall* (in popularity, once people realized what he really was) that Vince experienced has created the myth that Penny had all-time greatness in him (if you like, you can call it the Kurt Cobain Effect, ha!) I never saw it. I saw an all-star level player, perhaps a slightly better Brandon Roy or Joe Johnson - basically that level. But the 'Lil Penny commercials, that Magic team with Shaq, the hype, the fact that he was likeable - all contributed to the myth.

And the VC thing is not a perfect comparison, because, quite frankly, Vince Carter at his peak was also better than Penny, even though he wasn't "the next MJ". But you get the idea.

[guy]

To draw up a hypothetical: Imagine how highly regarded Vince Carter would be had he injured his knee after his 3rd season, stumbled around at half speed for a few years and then faded away. What would his legacy be? People would remember the dunk contest, his playoff explosions, the 27 ppg, the comparisons to MJ (before Kobe stole that one), etc etc etc.

"OMYGOD! Omygodomygodohmygod! Vince would have been better than MJ! He was awesome! He was the best dunker! He would have been an all-time great, but he just got hurt!"

In a nutshell, that's Penny's legacy. Getting injured and not experiencing the *downfall* (in popularity, once people realized what he really was) that Vince experienced has created the myth that Penny had all-time greatness in him (if you like, you can call it the Kurt Cobain Effect, ha!) I never saw it. I saw an all-star level player, perhaps a slightly better Brandon Roy or Joe Johnson - basically that level. But the 'Lil Penny commercials, that Magic team with Shaq, the hype, the fact that he was likeable - all contributed to the myth.

And the VC thing is not a perfect comparison, because, quite frankly, Vince Carter at his peak was also better than Penny, even though he wasn't "the next MJ". But you get the idea.

You have a valid point and its a valid comparison. But although Penny is overrated, I have no doubt in my mind he would've been better then Vince. Mentally he was on a different level. He was a big game performer, and didn't play like he just didn't care.

[NugzHeat3]

Another factoid in Penny's legacy is that he was involved in what was probably the worst trade in NBA history. Had the Magic kept Chris Webber, they would/could have dominated the NBA for 10 years.

People forget how good Chris Webber was, or they just dont know. They think of the Sacramento Kings Webber, who was just a shadow of the younger, more explosive one. Maybe Webber never gets injured had he played in Orlando, and kept his athleticism, rather than becoming a grounded player.

Shaq + Webber would have been too much for anyone. They probably take 2-3 rings from the Rockets/Bulls, and maybe Shaq decides to stick around. The Shaq/Kobe thing never happens, the Sactown Kings dont happen, and its Shaq/Webber vs Duncan/Robinson and against who knows what else?

The history of the league was turned on its head, all because of one baffling, unnecessary, and ultimately gawdawful trade.
No, it wouldn't.

Good luck getting the ball into the post with the shittastic ball handlers the Magic had. Teams would just dictate the tempo against a Webber/Shaq front line.

Any team that had the personnel to pressure the ball and force turnovers could beat that team. Hell, when the Bulls swept the Magic in 1996, they put Pippen on Penny to make it harder to entry pass and often pressured the ball to take advantage of Dennis Scott and Nick Anderson's inability to really handle the ball.

A team with Webber and Shaq would have no go-to-guy, the worst foul shooting out of any team in the league and would have a hard time just getting the ball to them. Those two won't have much time left on the clock when they get the ball and would get double teamed right away putting more pressure on those shooters to create off the dribble under pressure.

It looks like a decent fit because Webber can play from the high-post, elbow region and Shaq can dominate the low block but on paper is vastly different than what would happen on court.

They'd have Skiles in place of Penny on a team with Webber and Shaq. Hate to tell you that Skiles isn't exactly the creative ball handler or athletic PG or offers the size Penny did that's going to have a lot success against traps or the press. He was a great passer though and could space the floor with his shooting.

The Magic made the trade and it was a smart move until Shaq bolted and Penny got injured.

[JohnnySic]

No, it wouldn't.

Good luck getting the ball into the post with the shittastic ball handlers the Magic had. Teams would just dictate the tempo against a Webber/Shaq front line.

Any team that had the personnel to pressure the ball and force turnovers could beat that team. Hell, when the Bulls swept the Magic in 1996, they put Pippen on Penny to make it harder to entry pass and often pressured the ball to take advantage of Dennis Scott and Nick Anderson's inability to really handle the ball.

A team with Webber and Shaq would have no go-to-guy, the worst foul shooting out of any team in the league and would have a hard time just getting the ball to them. Those two won't have much time left on the clock when they get the ball and would get double teamed right away putting more pressure on those shooters to create off the dribble under pressure.

It looks like a decent fit because Webber can play from the high-post, elbow region and Shaq can dominate the low block but on paper is vastly different than what would happen on court.

They'd have Skiles in place of Penny on a team with Webber and Shaq. Hate to tell you that Skiles isn't exactly the creative ball handler or athletic PG or offers the size Penny did that's going to have a lot success against traps or the press. He was a great passer though and could space the floor with his shooting.

The Magic made the trade and it was a smart move until Shaq bolted and Penny got injured.

LOL, you can aquire a decent point guard for ball handling and distribution duties. You cannot recreate a frontcourt like Shaq/Webber. They would have been better than Duncan/Robinson. Considerably so.

[NugzHeat3]

LOL, you can aquire a decent point guard for ball handling and distribution duties. You cannot recreate a frontcourt like Shaq/Webber. They would have been better than Duncan/Robinson. Considerably so.
That's easier said than done. Scott Skiles could handle and distribute as well.

But against a press at a high level? No.

It's not like one guy is automatically going to solve their problems either. Even with Penny, they struggled because Chicago would just trap Penny, force him to give it up and then rotate and hound guys like Anderson and Scott.

You still didn't address who'd be the go to guy on the team or their foul shooting woes.

And no, Duncan and Robinson at their combined best (1999) would be better than Shaq and Webber as a duo. They're not as flawed and better defensively by a mile.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Another factoid in Penny's legacy is that he was involved in what was probably the worst trade in NBA history. Had the Magic kept Chris Webber, they would/could have dominated the NBA for 10 years.

People forget how good Chris Webber was, or they just dont know. They think of the Sacramento Kings Webber, who was just a shadow of the younger, more explosive one. Maybe Webber never gets injured had he played in Orlando, and kept his athleticism, rather than becoming a grounded player.

Shaq + Webber would have been too much for anyone. They probably take 2-3 rings from the Rockets/Bulls, and maybe Shaq decides to stick around. The Shaq/Kobe thing never happens, the Sactown Kings dont happen, and its Shaq/Webber vs Duncan/Robinson and against who knows what else?

The history of the league was turned on its head, all because of one baffling, unnecessary, and ultimately gawdawful trade.

Ignoring the what if about Webber never getting injured....

An inside/outside combo is better in general, especially since Webber wasn't a better player than 2nd/3rd year Penny until 2000-2002.

Many knew Shaq wanted to leave Orlando before '96, and ignoring the fact that Penny was healthy in '95 and '96 while Webber played just 69 games in those 2 seasons combined...when they were on the court, you'd have 2 of the worst free throw shooters in the league. We all know about Shaq's free throw shooting, but Webber himself didn't shoot 60% until 2000.

But knowing that Webber did get injured earlier, and using common sense that the duo wouldn't have complemented each other as much and then factoring in that Orlando got a really good PF in Horace Grant to go with Penny/Shaq.

There's zero chance that they win in '95 or '96 and zero chance that Shaq stays. The trade was a very good one for Orlando, especially since they got Horace Grant.

Penny also showed in his short career that he was a much better playoff performer than Webber. I like Webber, but he was one of the superstars who shrunk the most in big games.


I saw an all-star level player, perhaps a slightly better Brandon Roy or Joe Johnson - basically that level.

No, Penny was much better than Johnson. Not only was he a more capable player, but he was the opposite of Johnson in big games. Johnson is a choker, while Penny often played better in the playoffs.

Penny was the best guard not named Michael Jordan in '95 and '96, maybe a couple of other guys have a case, but Penny was a damn good player. He could post up, get to the basket and finish, had a very good mid-range game, he was maybe the best passer/playmaker above 6'6" at the time and he was unselfish and had no problem taking a backseat to Shaq, but could step up when needed.

[eliteballer]

Originally Posted by JohnnySic

I saw an all-star level player, perhaps a slightly better Brandon Roy or Joe Johnson - basically that level.

LOL..........................making two all nba FIRST teams and lighting up some of the greatest defensive squads in the playoffs ever like the Bulls and Heat says otherwise

[Whoah10115]

Unfortunately, Orlando were stupid enough to move Penny to SG after being 1st Team All-NBA his 2nd and 3rd seasons. So it's hard to say.


He wasn't an elite passer (yet) but had great court vision, kind of a combo guard...kind of...but he was a point and he would have been a hall-of-famer...one of my favorites.




Penny for Webber one of the worst trades ever? I don't know what that means. Penny became the best PG in the league. Come on now.