Where does Bird REALLY rank All-Time

[jlauber]

I know that this has probably been discussed before, but the more I research the topic, the less I am impressed.

Where does Larry Bird's CAREER rank all-time?

Here is MY Top-10 list:

1. Russell
2. MJ
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Kareem
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Olajuwon
10. Bird

I want to read LEGITIMATE arguments on how Bird is better the first nine. Granted, I could probably swap Olajuwon and Bird, but I really feel that Hakeem was a more dominant player, particularly in the post-season.

Remember, this is based on CAREER. For example...how can Bird be ranked over Kobe? Kobe has more rings, Finals, more statistical achievements, and considerably higher scoring post-seasons. And keep in mind that Bird's FG% came in an era of .480 and .490 league-wide averages. And for all the hype that Bird's three-point shooting generated...take a closer look at his, and Kobe's post-season 3 pt shooting. Bird AVERAGED ONE 3pt FGM in every TWO playoff games...and shot .321 in the process.

True, Bird has an edge in regular season MVP awards, but clearly Kobe was shafted in probably as many as three years in that regard.

Anyway...I want LEGITIMATE arguments. I won't bother responding to idiotic posts.

I will respond later on...

[ginobli2311]

I know that this has probably been discussed before, but the more I research the topic, the less I am impressed.

Where does Larry Bird's CAREER rank all-time?

Here is MY Top-10 list:

1. Russell
2. MJ
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Kareem
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Olajuwon
10. Bird

I want to read LEGITIMATE arguments on how Bird is better the first nine. Granted, I could probably swap Olajuwon and Bird, but I really feel that Hakeem was a more dominant player, particularly in the post-season.

Remember, this is based on CAREER. For example...how can Bird be ranked over Kobe? Kobe has more rings, Finals, more statistical achievements, and considerably higher scoring post-seasons. And keep in mind that Bird's FG% came in an era of .480 and .490 league-wide averages. And for all the hype that Bird's three-point shooting generated...take a closer look at his, and Kobe's 3 post-season 3 pt shooting. Bird AVERAGED ONE 3pt FGM in every TWO playoff games...and shot .321 in the process.

True, Bird has an edge in regular season MVP awards, but clearly Kobe was shafted in probably as many as three years in that regard.

Anyway...I want LEGITIMATE arguments. I won't bother responding to idiotic posts.

I will respond later on...

here is my list:

1. jordan
2. russell
3. magic
4. wilt
5. kareem
6. duncan
7. bird
8. shaq
9. hakeem
10. kobe

for bird. it depends on how you rank players. bird only played 13 years. so if longevity is a huge part of your rankings then bird will dip a little. bird was probably the most complete offensive player of all time. 24 points 10 boards 6 assists for his career. think about that. he could beat you in the post. he could beat you off the dribble. he could beat you from behind the three point line. he was one of the best passers of all time. he had no offensive weaknesses.

his career playoff peaks are also amazing. 28 points 11 boards 6 assists in 84. 27 points 10 boards 7 assists in 87. he won 3 mvp awards. he is 3rd all time in mvp awards shares. he was a very good defender. he has a better playoff defensive rating and more defensive win shares than kobe for example. his win shares per 48 minutes is better than kobe's as well.

bird was just an all around better basketball player than hakeem and kobe and shaq in my opinion.

[Disaprine]

Bird to me would be around 7 or 8 imo.

[andrewj305]

6 7 or 8th spot .

[jlauber]

Bird to me would be around 7 or 8 imo.

So, you would rank Bird over Kobe and Olajuwon? Give me your reasons.

[G-Funk]

1. Michael Jordan
2. K.Abdul-Jabbar
3. Magic Johnson
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Bill Russel
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Larry Bird
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Tim Duncan
10. Hakeem Olajuwon

[jlauber]

1. Michael Jordan
2. K.Abdul-Jabbar
3. Magic Johnson
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Bill Russel
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Larry Bird
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Tim Duncan
10. Hakeem Olajuwon

I will respond later...but PLEASE guys...give me some reasons. Do you honestly think Bird had a better CAREER than Shaq??? Or Duncan?

IMHO, Shaq had a longer career, a much higher PEAK, won more titles, was far mor dominant in the post-season, didn't flop as badly in his poorer post-seasons...the list goes on and on.

Duncan? Took less talented teams to FOUR titles.

C'mon...give me SOMETHING...

[ginobli2311]

So, you would rank Bird over Kobe and Olajuwon? Give me your reasons.

bird vs kobe.

bird was more efficient.
bird had a better offensive rating 115 to 112.
bird had a better defensive rating 101 to 105.
bird was a better passer.
bird was a better rebounder.
bird was a better three point shooter.
bird has a better assist to turnover ratio.
bird was a better free throw shooter.
bird has more win shares per 48 minutes.
bird has 3 mvps to 1 mvp.

i just don't see how kobe can be ranked over bird by any standards or measure.

are you ranking careers or players? or a combination of both? kobe's career might be better than bird (5 titles and more accolades...etc.). but if you are ranking based on who the better player is i just don't see how kobe or hakeem can be ahead of bird. i understand shaq......but i still have bird right behind duncan.

[Yung D-Will]

I have bird as my number 6 but I'd rather not comment in this thread because it's bound to turn into a Shaqattack,Fatal 9 vs jlauber and Phila thread :oldlol: .

But yea Bird's peak/Prime was nearly as good as anyones


24/10/7,
29/11/7
26/10/7
28/9/8
30/9/6

All on near 50% shooting and at the top of the leauge in steals every one of those years

My list
1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russel
4. Wilt
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Hakeem/Duncan
9. Duncan/Hakeem
10. Kobe

[magnax1]

I definitely don't agree with you rankings of Bird Magic or Duncan Jlauber. Magic was a great player, but he had some pretty huge problems on defense. Anyway I'd rank it like this
1-Jordan
2-Kareem
3-Wilt
4-Russell
5-Bird
6-Shaq
7-Oscar
8-Magic
9-Hakeem
10-Moses

[Disaprine]

So, you would rank Bird over Kobe and Olajuwon? Give me your reasons.
Hakeem to me is better than Bird and kobe. Bird is just above kobe imo.

[Yung D-Will]

I definitely don't agree with you rankings of Bird Magic or Duncan Jlauber. Magic was a great player, but he had some pretty huge problems on defense. Anyway I'd rank it like this
1-Jordan
2-Kareem
3-Wilt
4-Russell
5-Bird
6-Shaq
7-Oscar
8-Magic
9-Hakeem
10-Moses

Lol your ranking of Duncan never fails to amuse me lol .

[Desperado]

I definitely don't agree with you rankings of Bird Magic or Duncan Jlauber. Magic was a great player, but he had some pretty huge problems on defense. Anyway I'd rank it like this
1-Jordan
2-Kareem
3-Wilt
4-Russell
5-Bird
6-Shaq
7-Oscar
8-Magic
9-Hakeem
10-Moses


:oldlol: @ the overrating of Oscar.

[SGK_81]

Duncan - 6 GOAT :roll: :applause:

[G-Funk]

[Yung D-Will]

I definitely don't agree with you rankings of Bird Magic or Duncan Jlauber. Magic was a great player, but he had some pretty huge problems on defense. Anyway I'd rank it like this
1-Jordan
2-Kareem
3-Wilt
4-Russell
5-Bird
6-Shaq
7-Oscar
8-Magic
9-Hakeem
10-Moses

Lol at Moses being better then Kobe and Duncan

.

[magnax1]

Lol at Moses being better then Kobe and Duncan

.
:oldlol:
You always do this. Its getting obnoxious. If Kobe averages anything as good as 25-18 in the finals or had taken one of his 40 win teams to the finals, he'd be as good as Moses. I'm not even gonna touch Duncan because we've already argued nonstop about him.

[ShaqAttack3234]

4th. He turned a 29 win team into a 61 win team as a rookie and they then won a title in his 2nd season and they were title contenders every year until injuries killed his career in '88 and he was the best player on each and every one of those teams.

Many were calling Bird the GOAT in the mid 80's. He won 3 straight MVPs and is known as one of the greatest clutch shooters ever along with MJ and Reggie Miller.

Not to mention that he's one of the greatest shooters ever, one of the best scorers, very unselfish, one of the best rebounders ever at his position, incredible basketball IQ, played with a ton of heart and he was the best passing forward of all time. He could make ridiculously difficult shots

Don't look at how many 3s he made compared to Kobe, 3s weren't nearly as big of a part of the game in the 80's, look no further than the fact that Bird led the league in 3 pointers made in '86 and '87.

[lakers_forever]

Bird is part of the sacred top 6 greatest ever with Jordan, Magic, Wilt, Kareem and Russell. All those guys are great enough to be considered best ever.
Guys like Shaq, Kobe, Duncan and Hakeem are in the next tier.

[Yung D-Will]

:oldlol:
You always do this. Its getting obnoxious. If Kobe averages anything as good as 25-18 in the finals or had taken one of his 40 win teams to the finals, he'd be as good as Moses. I'm not even gonna touch Duncan because we've already argued nonstop about him.

Lol Kind of hypocritical don't you think seeing as though Duncan took a rebuilding team in the 2003 spurs who's supporting cast had as little production as Hakeem's.

Pg: Tony Parker: 16/5/3
Sg: Stephen Jackson:12/2/4
Sf: Bruce Bowen 7/1/2
Pf: Tim Duncan 23/13/4
C: David Robinson 9/5/1

Manu Ginobilli: 8/8/5
Steve Smith: 7/2/1

And had one of the greatest finals series of all time

Averaged 24.2 points, 17.0 boards and 5.3 assists had a near quadruple double which put his team on a 19-0 run. And saved the series not to mention the 32/20/6 game


* Since he came into the leauge his team has never missed the playoffs
* Carried a rebuilding team to a championship
* Has one of the best playoff runs in Nba History
* Has been consistent and continues to be a top player at age 34
* The Spurs have never had less then a 50 win season since he came
* 4 Championships
* 3 Finals Mvp's
* 2 Back to Back Mvp's in his Prime
* Dominated since his rookie season
* Undefeated in the Finals

[Desperado]

:oldlol:
You always do this. Its getting obnoxious. If Kobe averages anything as good as 25-18 in the finals or had taken one of his 40 win teams to the finals, he'd be as good as Moses. I'm not even gonna touch Duncan because we've already argued nonstop about him.


:lol :roll:

5>1

[BallPhunk]

I know that this has probably been discussed before, but the more I research the topic, the less I am impressed.

Where does Larry Bird's CAREER rank all-time?

Here is MY Top-10 list:

1. Russell
2. MJ
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Kareem
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Olajuwon
10. Bird

I want to read LEGITIMATE arguments on how Bird is better the first nine. Granted, I could probably swap Olajuwon and Bird, but I really feel that Hakeem was a more dominant player, particularly in the post-season.

Remember, this is based on CAREER. For example...how can Bird be ranked over Kobe? Kobe has more rings, Finals, more statistical achievements, and considerably higher scoring post-seasons. And keep in mind that Bird's FG% came in an era of .480 and .490 league-wide averages. And for all the hype that Bird's three-point shooting generated...take a closer look at his, and Kobe's post-season 3 pt shooting. Bird AVERAGED ONE 3pt FGM in every TWO playoff games...and shot .321 in the process.

True, Bird has an edge in regular season MVP awards, but clearly Kobe was shafted in probably as many as three years in that regard.

Anyway...I want LEGITIMATE arguments. I won't bother responding to idiotic posts.

I will respond later on...

These types of posts are what I hate about ISH. "As you research" - you mean as you look at numbers, which almost always ends in a fail?



Duncan? Took less talented teams to FOUR titles.
Just maybe the competition each team was playing matters a bit?


Remember, this is based on CAREER. For example...how can Bird be ranked over Kobe? Kobe has more rings, Finals, more statistical achievements, and considerably higher scoring post-seasons...
:rolleyes: Sorry, I can't bring myself to go any further.

Please go watch some basketball.

[magnax1]

Lol Kind of hypocritical don't you think seeing as though Duncan took a rebuilding team in the 2003 spurs who's supporting cast had as little production as Hakeem's.

Pg: Tony Parker: 16/5/3
Sg: Stephen Jackson:12/2/4
Sf: Bruce Bowen 7/1/2
Pf: Tim Duncan 23/13/4
C: David Robinson 9/5/1

Manu Ginobilli: 8/8/5
Steve Smith: 7/2/1

And had one of the greatest finals series of all time

Averaged 24.2 points, 17.0 boards and 5.3 assists had a near quadruple double which put his team on a 19-0 run. And saved the series .


* Since he came into the leauge his team has never missed the playoffs
* Carried a rebuilding team to a championship
* Has one of the best playoff runs in Nba History
* Has been consistent and continues to be a top player at age 34
* The Spurs have never had less then a 50 win season since he came
* 4 Championships
* 3 Finals Mvp's
* 2 Back to Back Mvp's in his Prime
* Dominated since his rookie season
* Undefeated in the Finals
Taking a 60 win team, that had depth and two of the five best defenders in the league, and two good guards is not the same as taking a 40 win team to the finals. :lol I never denied Duncan is a great player, especially on defense, Here are some of Moses playoffs stats
26 ppg 14 rpg 2 bpg 1.5 apg
27 ppg 14 rpg 1.5 bpg 2 apg(81 finals run)
24 ppg 17 rpg 1 bpg 3 apg
26 ppg 16 rpg 2 bpg 1.5 apg (83 1 loss finals run)
And Duncan's
28 ppg 14 rpg 3.5 bpg 5 apg (definitely his best run, had most of the offense to himself)
25 ppg 15 rpg 3.5 bpg 5 apg
You can't say it isn't close, but I'd rather have Moses. Better rebounder, Scorer, actually a good defender in the playoffs though he never tried during the regular season. Took a 40 win team to the finals, won a title with only one loss. Duncan probably played equal to Moses in the finals, but Moses got teams there that Duncan wouldn't have in the first place.
Though you have convinced me that Duncan is better then kobe, lol.

[momo]

If your going to look at league wide average shooting % you also have to look a league wide average # of 3s taken and %, at least if your going to bring up how many bird made per playoff game.

Bird was one of the first guys to take them regularly and he did not start doing that right out the gate. He warmed up to it after a while.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Bird is easily - EASILY - above Kobe on the all-time list. LMAO @ huge Laker/Kobe groupie jlauber and his agenda. :oldlol:

Bird is 5th-6th for me, behind MJ/Wilt/KAJ/Magic and possibly Russell.

[Fatal9]

Top 3 or 4.

Prime wise he was easily top 5 and to me the best all around player to ever play. And then add in that only 5 other guys have won 3 titles as "the man" and Bird did it in a very short time span in one of the toughest eras in history. Drafted by a losing franchise and turned them into a 60+ win team with the only main addition being him. Only thing to question with him is his durability, not only did his body fall apart in '88, but he was also ailing with problems in several playoff runs as well ('83, '85). Has some of the most incredible playoff runs, regular seasons, clutch performances and two of the greatest finals performance ('84 and '86). lol @ questioning Bird's efficiency when he is one of the few players to have 50/40/90 seasons (I think he did it on the most volume ever?) and had two championship runs shooting 50/40/90.

Not sure how anyone can rank Magic over him. Bird had less healthy years and not only had a more dominant peak, but won more titles as the clear best player on his team and also faced way tougher competition in his conference. Magic's conferences were largely trash, and when he did face real threats out West, Lakers would often struggle to reach the finals (like Rockets in '86, Suns in '90, Jazz to an extent in '88). Bird meanwhile had to battle those Sixer, Bucks and Piston teams to even reach the finals.

[MasterDurant24]

bird vs kobe.

bird was more efficient.
bird had a better offensive rating 115 to 112.
bird had a better defensive rating 101 to 105.
bird was a better passer.
bird was a better rebounder.
bird was a better three point shooter.
bird has a better assist to turnover ratio.
bird was a better free throw shooter.
bird has more win shares per 48 minutes.
bird has 3 mvps to 1 mvp.

i just don't see how kobe can be ranked over bird by any standards or measure.

are you ranking careers or players? or a combination of both? kobe's career might be better than bird (5 titles and more accolades...etc.). but if you are ranking based on who the better player is i just don't see how kobe or hakeem can be ahead of bird. i understand shaq......but i still have bird right behind duncan.
This.

EDIT: Well, I actually have him higher than Duncan.

Duncan faced New Jersey, Detroit, New York, and Cleveland in their Final appearences.

Bird faced Houston and LA. He also faced Detroit, Philly, and even Milwaukee on the way to the Finals.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

I know that this has probably been discussed before, but the more I research the topic, the less I am impressed.

Where does Larry Bird's CAREER rank all-time?

Here is MY Top-10 list:

1. Russell
2. MJ
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Kareem
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Olajuwon
10. Bird

I want to read LEGITIMATE arguments on how Bird is better the first nine. Granted, I could probably swap Olajuwon and Bird, but I really feel that Hakeem was a more dominant player, particularly in the post-season.

Remember, this is based on CAREER. For example...how can Bird be ranked over Kobe? Kobe has more rings, Finals, more statistical achievements, and considerably higher scoring post-seasons. And keep in mind that Bird's FG% came in an era of .480 and .490 league-wide averages. And for all the hype that Bird's three-point shooting generated...take a closer look at his, and Kobe's post-season 3 pt shooting. Bird AVERAGED ONE 3pt FGM in every TWO playoff games...and shot .321 in the process.

True, Bird has an edge in regular season MVP awards, but clearly Kobe was shafted in probably as many as three years in that regard.

Anyway...I want LEGITIMATE arguments. I won't bother responding to idiotic posts.

I will respond later on...

I'm thinking you never watched him play? You are familiar with highlights, youtube, whatever. Were you watching the NBA, live, in the early-mid 80s? Or were you not born yet?

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

If you have Bird outside of your top 6 or 7, then you should simply stop watching basketball.

Also, if you have Kareem outside of top 4, then you should probably stop watching sports altogether. Take up basket-weaving or something.

[ShaqAttack3234]

If you have Bird outside of your top 6 or 7, then you should simply stop watching basketball.

Also, if you have Kareem outside of top 4, then you should probably stop watching sports altogether. Take up basket-weaving or something.

Agreed. I'm probably leaning towards Kareem as the greatest ever.

[ThaRegul8r]

lol @ questioning Bird's efficiency when he is one of the few players to have 50/40/90 seasons (I think he did it on the most volume ever?)

He did. He and Dirk are the only players to do it while scoring over 20 a game, but Bird had higher volume, which makes it harder to maintain that level of efficiency:

Larry Bird, '86-87: 28.1 ppg, .525/.400/.910
Larry Bird, '87-88: 29.9 ppg, .527/.414/.916
Mark Price, '88-89: 18.9 ppg, .526/.441/.901
Reggie Miller, '93-94: 19.9 ppg, .503/.421/.908
Steve Nash, '05-06: 18.8 ppg, .512/.439/.921
Dirk Nowitzki, '06-07:24.6 ppg, .502/.416/.904
Steve Nash, '07-08: 16.9 ppg, .504/.470/.906
Jose Calderon, '07-08: 11.2 ppg, .519/.429/.908
Steve Nash, '08-09: 15.7 ppg, .503/.439/.933
Steve Nash, '09-10: 16.5 ppg, .507/.426/.938

[KobeDaMamba]

Magic>Bird. Magic beat him in college,in the finals 2 to 1 and could play 5 positions. He was also more efficient from the field and had legit 3 point range late in his career. Bird was a better shooter but Magic was a much better slasher and defender. Magic led the league in steals and could guard guys his size. Only got burned by the quick 1s. He's also the greatest playmaker and winner of all time.

1.Kareem
2.Magic
3.Jordan
4.Kobe
5.Shaq
6.Hakeem
7.Bird
8.Wilt
9.West
10.Russell

[MasterDurant24]

1. Kareem/Jordan
2. Jordan/Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Bird
5. Magic
6. Russell
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Hakeem
10. Kobe

Moses Malone and Dr. J could contest for the 9th or 10th spot.

[che guevara]

Top 3 or 4.

Prime wise he was easily top 5 and to me the best all around player to ever play. And then add in that only 5 other guys have won 3 titles as "the man" and Bird did it in a very short time span in one of the toughest eras in history. Drafted by a losing franchise and turned them into a 60+ win team with the only main addition being him. Only thing to question with him is his durability, not only did his body fall apart in '88, but he was also ailing with problems in several playoff runs as well ('83, '85). Has some of the most incredible playoff runs, regular seasons, clutch performances and two of the greatest finals performance ('84 and '86). lol @ questioning Bird's efficiency when he is one of the few players to have 50/40/90 seasons (I think he did it on the most volume ever?) and had two championship runs shooting 50/40/90.

Not sure how anyone can rank Magic over him. Bird had less healthy years and not only had a more dominant peak, but won more titles as the clear best player on his team and also faced way tougher competition in his conference. Magic's conferences were largely trash, and when he did face real threats out West, Lakers would often struggle to reach the finals (like Rockets in '86, Suns in '90, Jazz to an extent in '88). Bird meanwhile had to battle those Sixer, Bucks and Piston teams to even reach the finals.
I agree about the strength of the conference - it's something that's always totally overlooked when people rank Magic and Bird. For example, in 1987, the Lakers played the 37 win Nuggets, 42 win Warriors and 39 win Sonics before they reached the Finals compared to the Celtics who played Jordan in the first round before having consecutive 7 game bloodbaths against the Bucks and Pistons. Who do you think was fresher for the Finals? Despite all of this, the Celtics were a Bird shot missing by a tenth of a millimeter from tying the series up at 2-2. The West in the 80s was as bad as the East was in the early '00s.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Magic>Bird. Magic beat him in college,in the finals 2 to 1 and could play 5 positions. He was also more efficient from the field and had legit 3 point range late in his career. Bird was a better shooter but Magic was a much better slasher and defender. Magic led the league in steals and could guard guys his size. Only got burned by the quick 1s. He's also the greatest playmaker and winner of all time.


:roll: And Magic wasn't really a slasher. He scored in transition and on give and go plays with Kareem mostly when he was younger, then added a jumper/set shot he'd shoot when he had space and then the post game.

[KobeDaMamba]

:roll: And Magic wasn't really a slasher. He scored in transition and on give and go plays with Kareem mostly when he was younger, then added a jumper/set shot he'd shoot when he had space and then the post game.

Magic could drive a hell of a lot better than Bird. Bird was more of a dynamic scorer with his jumpshooting, post game and high IQ but he couldnt slash as well as Bird. And Magics post game wasnt anything to laugh about. His hookshots and ability to pass out of the post was great.

His versatility and leadership is simply on another level than Birds. He could also play center in todays league with ease. Amare has like an inch over Magic and he was out there playing center before Shaq came. Magic has a much better back to basket game than him and better defense.

[ThaRegul8r]

Magic>Bird. Magic beat him in college,in the finals 2 to 1 and could play 5 positions. He was also more efficient from the field and had legit 3 point range late in his career. Bird was a better shooter but Magic was a much better slasher and defender. Magic led the league in steals and could guard guys his size. Only got burned by the quick 1s. He's also the greatest playmaker and winner of all time.

:roll: And Magic wasn't really a slasher. He scored in transition and on give and go plays with Kareem mostly when he was younger, then added a jumper/set shot he'd shoot when he had space and then the post game.

Not sure why you'd bold the first:


As versatile as Meryl Streep, Magic Johnson can play any role the Lakers ask. Lately, that has included everything short of portraying Woody Allen's estranged wife or wearing a wig and speaking with an Australian accent.

Best known as a point guard who has so transformed the position that a new statistical category called the triple-double was devised, Johnson now has been asked to stretch his talents and his 6-foot-9 body to other positions on the court.

No costume change is needed, only a different approach and attitude.

Tune in to a Laker game at almost any juncture, and Johnson is likely to be playing any one of four positions. It has almost gotten to the point where public-address announcers should identify Johnson as Charlotte Hornet Coach Dick Harter did recently--point pivot.

Johnson, of course, starts and plays most of his 37 minutes a game at his natural point-guard spot. But in these post-Kareem transition days, Johnson will also play as many as 15 or 20 minutes a game at small forward and big forward, the latter mainly on defense. There also have been times, whenever Coach Pat Riley wants a quick lineup or is beset by foul trouble, that Johnson has played center.

"Magic this year is like a politician's promises," teammate Mychal Thompson said. "All over the place."

The difference, of course, is that Johnson often delivers. Although he has always had the ability to be an interchangeable part in the Laker attack--remember his 42-point, 15-rebound effort subbing for Abdul-Jabbar at center in Game 6 of the 1980 NBA Finals?--until now it has not been necessary for him to do anything except orchestrate and create from his point-guard spot.

Abdul-Jabbar's retirement created the need for his expanded activity, and the important addition of backup point guard Larry Drew made it possible.

"My role has really changed," Johnson said. "I'm running all five positions now at one time or the other, and I'm having to do more things than in the past. I love the challenge of doing something I don't do all the time. We all need challenges to keep us going. Life gets stale without them."

Life also can get complicated with them. Johnson has even more responsibility for the Lakers' success now than in previous seasons, if that is possible.

Now, he is the point guard in charge of controlling the flow and tempo of the offense; the small forward required to camp in the low post and provide inside scoring; the off-guard responsible for perimeter scoring; the power forward needed to root himself underneath and rebound, and the center who, as in the fourth quarter of a recent game against New Jersey, trades bumps and elbows with the likes of 7-foot-1 Sam Bowie.

Johnson, as a result, is also one tired guy by game's end.

He usually doesn't play all five spots against the same opponent--mainly just point guard and small forward. But Johnson still said he feels the wear and tear on his 30-year-old body and occasionally suffers an identity crisis, momentarily forgetting whether he is playing forward or guard.

Even if this position-juggling is slightly hindering Johnson's statistics, the Lakers' 18-5 record is the ultimate measure of the plan's success. He is averaging 22.7 points a game, compared to 22.5 last season, and is averaging almost one fewer turnover a game at 3.8. But his shooting accuracy has dropped from 50.9% to 46.8%, his rebounding average from 7.8 to 6.7 and his assist average from 12.8 to 11.

Everything has its trade-offs. Since Johnson no longer exclusively handles the ball, his assist output is bound to decrease. His drop in shooting percentage is merely symptomatic of a teamwide problem. And in rebounding, he no longer has the advantage of watching the flight of the ball from the guard spot and then scrambling after misses. He has to screen off bigger, stronger defenders.

But Johnson said winning, not statistics, is the major concern.

"It doesn't make me feel any different or special," he said of his versatility. "If that's going to let us win, that's fine. I don't care about scoring or none of that."

Couldn't post the whole thing, because it said it was too long, but the point is proven nonetheless.

[BallPhunk]

Magic could drive a hell of a lot better than Bird. Bird was more of a dynamic scorer with his jumpshooting, post game and high IQ but he couldnt slash as well as Bird. And Magics post game wasnt anything to laugh about. His hookshots and ability to pass out of the post was great.

His versatility and leadership is simply on another level than Birds. He could also play center in todays league with ease. Amare has like an inch over Magic and he was out there playing center before Shaq came. Magic has a much better back to basket game than him and better defense.

C'mon man... Fine to argue it either way cause it was close, but that statement is absurd.

[Flamboyant]

This.

EDIT: Well, I actually have him higher than Duncan.

Duncan faced New Jersey, Detroit, New York, and Cleveland in their Final appearences.

Bird faced Houston and LA. He also faced Detroit, Philly, and even Milwaukee on the way to the Finals.

Funny how you mention teams Bird has faced in the east, while everyone knows Duncans main competition was in the West. If you want to rank Bird higher, go ahead, but Duncan had a better career(team success-wise). He was the one that ended the Laker dynasty of Shaq&Kobe, when his team was in the middle of a transition period. His team has always remained competitive, even though when he won his 3rd, he had none of his teammates from the 1st ring. I know it doesn't impress most people, but to me this is one of the most impressive achievements by an NBA great. In other words his team went through a rebuilding, while remaining competitive. wow

[Quotable]

I have him firmly at #6 behind only MJ, Russell, Kareem, Wilt and Magic.

The man was an AMAZING player. Amazing passer, amazing shooter, amazing competitive streak, even a pretty damn solid defender considering his slow foot speed.

If you Google Timeline "best player in the NBA" during 1985-87, Larry Bird's name comes up the most. And I'd say that was a damn strong era for top players.

[Gifted Mind]

Top 3 or 4.

Prime wise he was easily top 5 and to me the best all around player to ever play. And then add in that only 5 other guys have won 3 titles as "the man" and Bird did it in a very short time span in one of the toughest eras in history.
I count 9. Yes many were close, thus not necessarily "9", however, if you had to choose best player on championship team for every season, you would have 9 different players with that accomplishment.

And even if you were looking at clear-cut best players,

Jordan
Russell
Mikan
Shaq
Duncan


All 5 of those have had at least 3 titles as the best on their team for sure. So how is there only 5 players including Bird who have accomplished this task?

[ShaqAttack3234]

Magic could drive a hell of a lot better than Bird. Bird was more of a dynamic scorer with his jumpshooting, post game and high IQ but he couldnt slash as well as Bird. And Magics post game wasnt anything to laugh about. His hookshots and ability to pass out of the post was great.

His versatility and leadership is simply on another level than Birds. He could also play center in todays league with ease. Amare has like an inch over Magic and he was out there playing center before Shaq came. Magic has a much better back to basket game than him and better defense.

I said Magic's post game later in his career was one of his main offensive weapons.

As much as people rag on Amare about his defense, I seriously doubt Magic would even play as well as Amare defensively. Atleast Amare has been a fairly good shot blocker. As far as Magic's post game, he became great in the post, but against other guards. I can't see him using his back to the basket game vs centers. He'd score vs them, but I don't see him scoring at the high percentage Stat did and as I said, I'd see him being a bigger defensive liability.

[ThaRegul8r]

Funny how you mention teams Bird has faced in the east, while everyone knows Duncans main competition was in the West. If you want to rank Bird higher, go ahead, but Duncan had a better career(team success-wise). He was the one that ended the Laker dynasty of Shaq&Kobe, when his team was in the middle of a transition period. His team has always remained competitive, even though when he won his 3rd, he had none of his teammates from the 1st ring. I know it doesn't impress most people, but to me this is one of the most impressive achievements by an NBA great. In other words his team went through a rebuilding, while remaining competitive. wow

[john_d]

1. TIER
Kareem,Jordan,Wilt,Bird,Magic,Russell
2. TIER
Shaq,Duncan,Hakeem,Kobe

it should always be like this and depending on your bais and criteria it should shuffle a bit. but a 2nd tier can't go above a 1st tier.

[nycelt84]

Magic>Bird. Magic beat him in college,in the finals 2 to 1 and could play 5 positions. He was also more efficient from the field and had legit 3 point range late in his career. Bird was a better shooter but Magic was a much better slasher and defender. Magic led the league in steals and could guard guys his size. Only got burned by the quick 1s. He's also the greatest playmaker and winner of all time.

1.Kareem
2.Magic
3.Jordan
4.Kobe
5.Shaq
6.Hakeem
7.Bird
8.Wilt
9.West
10.Russell

:roll:

Neither Bird nor Magic was a great defender but Bird was a superior defender to Magic. The only thing Magic had over Bird was passing and even then the gap wasn't great. I have Bird as the 5th best player overall and at his peak he was as good as anyone to have ever played the game.

[Harison]

Bird is clearly in the Immortal Top6. He dominated his peers with 3 straight MVPs (career Top3 by MVP shares), and he played in the Golden era with prime Magic, young but already ridiculous Jordan, Hakeem, - any of them could easily be MVPs today, and Bird was clearly better. How about Barkley, older but still great Kareem, Moses, Isiah, Dr. J, etc. Those could be MVPs today as well. It just shows Birds prime was incredible, along with 3 championships against super stacked competition.

Bird's clutchness and BBIQ was beyond charts, efficiency incredible, GOAT SF. If anyone has him bellow Top6, I would question if they saw Birds prime. :applause:

[lakers_forever]

How can anyone laugh at a Magic and Bird comparison? The fact is you should not be laughed at because you think one was greater than the other.

And so called knowledgeable posters doing that... :ohwell:

[alexandreben]

Bird is NO.6 All-Time in my list, and he is the best SF of all time in my list...

I'd like to bring up a few things here.. especially the "Bird-Kobe" part, I simply just couldn't rank Kobe over Bird...

Era issue and competition: Bird played in the 80's which's the best era in NBA history, whoever played in a better era and tougher competition, I tend to rank him higher automatically.. 80's superstars simply just has superior advantage than the 00's either in quality or in quantity.. Bird owns Jordan back in the 80's, I really don't think Kobe could've played at that level if played against Jordan in the 80's...

Hand-Checking: just like AI, Kobe got huge benifit from the rule changing, Kobe's high scoring season is overrated, think about if Jordan, Bird, Magic played in an era without hand-checking... heu...

Intangible like Leadership: Bird is definitely a much better leader than Kobe, Bird motivated his teammates even like HOF McHale, Kobe...don't even want to review he and Shaq's fighting..

With/without: Bird turned a 29 wins team to a 61 wins with same key rosters, no one can compare with Bird in this category.. Kobe led Lakers to consistant faileurs until Pau Gasol on board, huge difference..


At the age 31:
Bird: 52.7% / 29.9 pts / 9.3 rbs / 6.1 ast / 1.6 stl / 41.4% (3P)
Kobe: 45.6% / 27.0 pts / 5.4 rbs / 5.0 ast / 1.5 stl / 32.9% (3P)


Bird's last season:
46.6% / 20.2 pts / 9.6 rbs / 6.8 ast / 0.9 stl / 40.6% (3P)

[alexandreben]

Bird is clearly in the Immortal Top6. He dominated his peers with 3 straight MVPs (career Top3 by MVP shares), and he played in the Golden era with prime Magic, young but already ridiculous Jordan, Hakeem, - any of them could easily be MVPs today, and Bird was clearly better. How about Barkley, older but still great Kareem, Moses, Isiah, Dr. J, etc. Those could be MVPs today as well. It just shows Birds prime was incredible, along with 3 championships against super stacked competition.

"A man's greatness can be measured by his enemies"

[BallPhunk]

I changed my mind about this thread. So much good info has followed the OP that it's quite a good thing...


:D :applause:

[ginobli2311]

Bird is clearly in the Immortal Top6. He dominated his peers with 3 straight MVPs (career Top3 by MVP shares), and he played in the Golden era with prime Magic, young but already ridiculous Jordan, Hakeem, - any of them could easily be MVPs today, and Bird was clearly better. How about Barkley, older but still great Kareem, Moses, Isiah, Dr. J, etc. Those could be MVPs today as well. It just shows Birds prime was incredible, along with 3 championships against super stacked competition.

Bird's clutchness and BBIQ was beyond charts, efficiency incredible, GOAT SF. If anyone has him bellow Top6, I would question if they saw Birds prime. :applause:

i agree bird was unreal. i just think duncan was a slightly better overall player.

1. jordan
2. russell
3. magic
4. wilt
5. kareem
6. duncan
7. bird

i hardly think its absurd to rank duncan ahead of bird all time.

[AllenIverson3]

I know that this has probably been discussed before, but the more I research the topic, the less I am impressed.

Where does Larry Bird's CAREER rank all-time?

Here is MY Top-10 list:

1. Russell
2. MJ
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Kareem
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Olajuwon
10. Bird

I want to read LEGITIMATE arguments on how Bird is better the first nine. Granted, I could probably swap Olajuwon and Bird, but I really feel that Hakeem was a more dominant player, particularly in the post-season.

Remember, this is based on CAREER. For example...how can Bird be ranked over Kobe? Kobe has more rings, Finals, more statistical achievements, and considerably higher scoring post-seasons. And keep in mind that Bird's FG% came in an era of .480 and .490 league-wide averages. And for all the hype that Bird's three-point shooting generated...take a closer look at his, and Kobe's post-season 3 pt shooting. Bird AVERAGED ONE 3pt FGM in every TWO playoff games...and shot .321 in the process.

True, Bird has an edge in regular season MVP awards, but clearly Kobe was shafted in probably as many as three years in that regard.

Anyway...I want LEGITIMATE arguments. I won't bother responding to idiotic posts.

I will respond later on...

How is Russell better player than Jordan? :hammerhead:

[AllenIverson3]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Larry Bird
3. Magic Johnson
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Tim Duncan
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Wilt Chamberlain
9. Bill Russell
10. Kobe Bryant

[ShaqAttack3234]

Bird was hands down better than Magic from '80-'86. Watch the games, look at MVP voting, look at the stats ect. and it'll be obvious. And still in '87 and '88, Bird was right there in the conversation for best player in the league.

[MasterDurant24]

Bird was hands down better than Magic from '80-'86. Watch the games, look at MVP voting, look at the stats ect. and it'll be obvious. And still in '87 and '88, Bird was right there in the conversation for best player in the league.
Yes.

[jlauber]

Bird has NO case over Magic. Magic was THE dominant player in the league from about '85 on, and lost MVP votes earlier against Bird because of splits with an undeserving Kareem.

Magic was FAR better in the post-season. This is even debateable. Bird had post-season FLOPS. In Bird's BEST Finals, in 83-84, had LA not HANDED Boston TWO games, and Bird goes 0-3 against Magic. And even in that series, his game seven was nothing to write home about (6-18 from the field.)

Bird shot .472 in the post-season....below the LEAGUE AVERAGE. In his five Final appearances he was even WORSE...shooting .455. His 3pt shooting in the post-season was a NON-FACTOR. 80 made 3pters in 164 post-season games...or less than ONE every TWO games. His .321 3pt percentage was also WORSE than Kobe, who has taken far more.

Magic shot .516 in the post-season. He was LA's BEST rebounder in some of them (he had FIVE Finals in which he outrebounded Kareem for cryingoutloud.) Bird NEVER shot over 50% in the Finals (.488 was his best)...while Magic had FIVE Finals over 50%, including one at .541.

Magic CARRIED LA to FIVE titles, went 2-1 over Bird (and DOMINATED him in BOTH....and once again...it SHOULD have been 3-0.)

Magic CARRIED LA to NINE Finals (including one without sidekick Kareem.) Bird went to five Finals, played well in TWO, and was either ordinary or awful in the other three.) There are those here who give him credit in '81 (when he deservedly did NOT win the Finals MVP)...the man shot .419...while teammate and winner Cornbread Maxwell shot .567!

And AFTER the '87 blowout loss to LA, Bird was never a factor again. Meanwhile Magic was GREAT for OVER an ENTIRE decade.

So...NO, Bird was not better than Magic. Not even CLOSE.

[catch24]

^

:roll:

Anyone that doesn't have Bird ranked in their top 5-7 needs their head examined. The fact you have Kobe ranked over him speaks VOLUMES about you and your agenda.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Bird has NO case over Magic. Magic was THE dominant player in the league from about '85 on, and lost MVP votes earlier against Bird because of splits with an undeserving Kareem.

Uhh, Magic was the dominant player in '86 in your opinion? Really? :confusedshrug:

Undeserving Kareem? First of all, I hope you mean after '81(which is still ridiculous). Who was the Lakers best scorer in the mid 80's? Kareem. Who drew the most double teams? Kareem. Who had a bigger impact defensively....Magic or Kareem? Kareem, easily, even then. Who was the Lakers go to scorer down the stretch? Kareem. Who did they base the vast majority of their halfcourt offense around? Kareem.


Magic was FAR better in the post-season. This is even debateable. Bird had post-season FLOPS. In Bird's BEST Finals, in 83-84, had LA not HANDED Boston TWO games, and Bird goes 0-3 against Magic. And even in that series, his game seven was nothing to write home about (6-18 from the field.)

Part of the reason LA "handed" Boston two games was because Magic choked in the clutch. And in '81? Magic shot 39% in the series they lost to Houston so don't act like magic was flawless in the playoffs.


Magic CARRIED LA to FIVE titles, went 2-1 over Bird (and DOMINATED him in BOTH....and once again...it SHOULD have been 3-0.)

Don't give me that "should have been 3-0" crap, Magic lost in '84 and a big reason why was because of his mistakes down the stretch.


Magic CARRIED LA to NINE Finals (including one without sidekick Kareem.) Bird went to five Finals, played well in TWO, and was either ordinary or awful in the other three.)

Magic didn't carry the Lakers to the finals. He was on a great team and Kareem was EASILY the Lakers best player in 1980, actually the best player in the entire league. :roll: at Bird being awful in any finals.

And Kareem a sidekick? I know you're not referring to '80, but even through '85.....the team's best scorer, go to player in the clutch and the bigger defensive presence as well as a deserving finals MVP('85) isn't a sidekick. I'm sure you'd agree that Kareem was deserving of that finals MVP as well.


There are those here who give him credit in '81 (when he deservedly did NOT win the Finals MVP)...the man shot .419...while teammate and winner Cornbread Maxwell shot .567!

Go watch the series and tell me Maxwell had anywhere NEAR the impact Bird did. bird was making great passes, making clucth plays and hustle plays and look at his rebounding. 15 boards per game, and he was a small forward! Just one less rebounds per game than a prime Moses Malone averaged in the same series. Bird also averaged 7 assists per game, phenomenal for a forward.

How about you post Maxwell's rebounding and assist numbers? Better yet, watch the games and tell me how Maxwell impacted the games like Bird did.


And AFTER the '87 blowout loss to LA, Bird was never a factor again. Meanwhile Magic was GREAT for OVER an ENTIRE decade.

So...NO, Bird was not better than Magic. Not even CLOSE.

Bird wasn't a factor in '88? 2nd in MVP voting, averages of 30/9/6 on shooting percentages of 53/41/92% on a 57 win team plus the legendary performance vs Nique's Hawks? Magic wasn't on Bird's level until '87 and in their first couple of years in the league? The gap was very big.

[ginobli2311]

Bird has NO case over Magic. Magic was THE dominant player in the league from about '85 on, and lost MVP votes earlier against Bird because of splits with an undeserving Kareem.

Magic was FAR better in the post-season. This is even debateable. Bird had post-season FLOPS. In Bird's BEST Finals, in 83-84, had LA not HANDED Boston TWO games, and Bird goes 0-3 against Magic. And even in that series, his game seven was nothing to write home about (6-18 from the field.)

Bird shot .472 in the post-season....below the LEAGUE AVERAGE. In his five Final appearances he was even WORSE...shooting .455. His 3pt shooting in the post-season was a NON-FACTOR. 80 made 3pters in 164 post-season games...or less than ONE every TWO games. His .321 3pt percentage was also WORSE than Kobe, who has taken far more.

Magic shot .516 in the post-season. He was LA's BEST rebounder in some of them (he had FIVE Finals in which he outrebounded Kareem for cryingoutloud.)

Magic CARRIED LA to FIVE titles, went 2-1 over Bird (and DOMINATED him in BOTH....and once again...it SHOULD have been 3-0.)

Magic CARRIED LA to NINE Finals (including one without sidekick Kareem.) Bird went to five Finals, played well in TWO, and was either ordinary or awful in the other three.) There are those here who give him credit in '81 (when he deservedly did NOT win the Finals MVP)...the man shot .419...while teammate and winner Cornbread Maxwell shot .567!

And AFTER the '87 blowout loss to LA, Bird was never a factor again. Meanwhile Magic was GREAT for OVER an ENTIRE decade.

So...NO, Bird was not better than Magic. Not even CLOSE.

LOL. its not close???? what????

it is close dude. i think magic was better.....but its not clear cut one way or the other. bird is ahead of magic in mvp award shares. that alone tells you it should be very close between them.

sorry dude. if you say that its "not close"....you clearly have an agenda. end of story.

[jlauber]

LOL. its not close???? what????

it is close dude. i think magic was better.....but its not clear cut one way or the other. bird is ahead of magic in mvp award shares. that alone tells you it should be very close between them.

sorry dude. if you say that its "not close"....you clearly have an agenda. end of story.

Bird's CAREER is well short of Magic's...especially if you factor in the post-season. Magic was better, longer. And I don't want to read any nonsense about better teams, either. Bird played with more HOFers.

[Round Mound]

He is in the Top 10 no doubt. My Top 10 for sure

[ginobli2311]

Bird's CAREER is well short of Magic's...especially if you factor in the post-season. Magic was better, longer. And I don't want to read any nonsense about better teams, either. Bird played with more HOFers.

again. so you are clearly ranking careers and not players. that is fine. but there is really no need to debate careers. its not hard. magic had the better career....end of story. who the actual better player was is a fun and interesting debate.

ranking careers in my opinion is kind of pointless. ranking players is what this debate should be about.

[jlauber]

Bird is clearly in the Immortal Top6. He dominated his peers with 3 straight MVPs (career Top3 by MVP shares), and he played in the Golden era with prime Magic, young but already ridiculous Jordan, Hakeem, - any of them could easily be MVPs today, and Bird was clearly better. How about Barkley, older but still great Kareem, Moses, Isiah, Dr. J, etc. Those could be MVPs today as well. It just shows Birds prime was incredible, along with 3 championships against super stacked competition.

Bird's clutchness and BBIQ was beyond charts, efficiency incredible, GOAT SF. If anyone has him bellow Top6, I would question if they saw Birds prime. :applause:

Alright...he was so "clutch" that shot .455 in his five finals, and under 50% in 20 of 31 games. You can downgrade Kobe a bit here for that too, but take a closer look at POST-SEASON play, and Kobe pulls away. My god, Bird never averaged 30 ppg in the post-season, in higher scoring leagues...while Kobe has SEVEN post-seasons above 30. In fact, discard Kobe's first couple of seasons, and his career post-season scoring is just under 30 ppg.

I don't see Bird having any case over Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, or Shaq. I have Duncan slightly rated higher than Shaq, but only because I really believe Duncan's overall impact made weaker rosters better. In terms of peak, though, Shaq blows Duncan away. So, I don't see Bird having a better CAREER than Shaq, nor even Duncan. That leaves Kobe...who I have already made a strong case (especially with five rings in seven finals), and Olajuwon. IMHO, Olajuwon was more dominant in the post-season, and his longevity gives him a slight edge in the regular season.

Just my opinions. I still have not been pursuaded by anything I have read here to change my mind. Bird had a string of brilliant regular seasons, for about 6-7 years (but I would certainly argue that he was the best player in all of them.) His post-season play was less than spectacular, as well. True, he was GREAT in one, maybe even two Finals, but that just does not justify the rest of his post-season career as being classified as "immortal."

[jlauber]

He is in the Top 10 no doubt. My Top 10 for sure

Mine too....just barely. I really don't see any argument over Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Duncan/Shaq, or Shaq/Duncan, Kobe, or Olajuwon...although I think it is close between Hakeem and Bird.

[joyner82]

1. Jordan
2. KAJ
3. Wilt
4. Bird
5. Magic
6. Russell
7. Hakeem
8. Shaq
9. Duncan
10. Kobe


/thread


At his absolute peak, Bird was better than Jordan offensively.

[jlauber]

1. Jordan
2. KAJ
3. Wilt
4. Bird
5. Magic
6. Russell
7. Hakeem
8. Shaq
9. Duncan
10. Kobe


/thread

You sure didn't convince me, though. I do agree with those on the list, though.

[jlauber]

At his absolute peak, Bird was better than Jordan offensively.

Good luck with the next barrage of posts...

[G-train]

jlauber and others give obscene weight to achievements and stats.

Anyone who has watched bball since the 80's knows how good Larry Bird was. If they have an eye for bball they know it.

jlauber does not know basketball. He just knows how to read.

Bird is arguably the greatest offensive player ever. Definitely top 3.
Bird is arguably the most skilled player ever. Definitely top 3.
Bird is arguably the best leader ever. Definitely top 3.
Bird is the best clutch player ever.

IMO he is better than Kobe. You can't talk rings. Bird had much better teams to face. Its absurd.

To me he is top 3. Not based on just numbers. Based on his basketball abilities.

Jordan
Magic
Bird
Kareem
Russell

Majority of posters were babies when Bird was playing, they wouldn't even know.

[joyner82]

Good luck with the next barrage of posts...


In his prime he put up 29, 9, and 8 on 53/40/91. Ya please go find me someone who can match those stats with that efficiency. Jordan scored more but he took more shots.

[MasterDurant24]

Bird might be the most skilled player ever considering his lack of athleticism.

[jlauber]

jlauber and others give obscene weight to achievements and stats.

Anyone who has watched bball since the 80's knows how good Larry Bird was. If they have an eye for bball they know it.

jlauber does not know basketball. He just knows how to read.

Bird is arguably the greatest offensive player ever. Definitely top 3.
Bird is arguably the most skilled player ever. Definitely top 3.
Bird is arguably the best leader ever. Definitely top 3.
Bird is the best clutch player ever.

IMO he is better than Kobe. You can't talk rings. Bird had much better teams to face. Its absurd.

To me he is top 3. Not based on just numbers. Based on his basketball abilities.

Jordan
Magic
Bird
Kareem
Russell

Majority of posters were babies when Bird was playing, they wouldn't even know.

You are entitled to YOUR opinions,...here are mine.

Bird was not top-3 offensively. My god, you didn't even mention Chamberlain, who just CRUSHES Bird in virtually every offensive category, except 3 pt shooting, (and in which in the post-season, his shooting was a non-factor), and FT shooting. And even in FT shooting, Wilt BURIES Bird in FT's MADE.

Then you can add MJ, Kobe, Kareem, Shaq, West, Dantley, and probably MANY other players who WERE better offensively than Bird.

Most skilled? This is an area where he might have an argument. However, I am not convinced that being the most skilled has any bearing on where a player finishes in terms of CAREER ranking. Bird was FAR from the most efficient shooter of all-time. Look up the rankings, I won't bother because I already KNOW he is well down the list.

Does most skilled mean BEST ALL-AROUND player? Geez, Magic certainly ranks ahead of him here. MJ's strengths in this area outweigh Bird's positives. Oscar and West certainly have legitimate arguments, as well. And better than Wilt? Chamberlain was so far ahead of Bird in defense and rebounding, and was a better passer for a center than Bird was for a forward (sorry, but Bird never led the NBA in assists.) And, Chamberlain, at his offensive best was FAR superior to Bird. My god...40 ppg in his first seven seasons...COMBINED!

Best leader? How do you KNOW that? Magic, MJ, and Russell all won more rings. Duncan took weaker rosters to more titles. I'm sure that I could come up with other's but this is pointless. There is simply no way of KNOWING who was a better leader.

Best "clutch" player ever? C'mon. His post-season play was hardly spectacular. Michael Cooper, a 6-7 reserve, used to reduce him to nearly ordinary in the Finals. Magic (see game six of the '80 Finals) West, MJ, Russell, Kareem, and even Shaq all have better resumes (yes, Shaq put up HUGE games in the Finals...that qualifies as "clutch" to me.) And, if you include all-around domination...well, Chamberlain had some HUGE post-seasons...even in defeat.

[Kblaze8855]

The repeated use and stressing of the word "career" feels like you want us to disregard the ability to play basketball in favor of things decided by largely circumstantial issues. If we are putting basketball playing aside and just going off a career rundown I dont see how Mikan isnt ranked over 4-5 of the first posts top 10. And if we value 5 rings at face value and disregard that one guy has 3 times the MVPs im not sure how we dont have Hondo near the top 10 or maybe higher. 8 rings and 2 without russell one while he was a 29/9/8 or so level player and another when he was still a star and the teams leader. He would be like a 3 time finals MVP if they had them his whole career.

If career really is the issue the top 10 would look quite a bit different.

[jlauber]

In his prime he put up 29, 9, and 8 on 53/40/91. Ya please go find me someone who can match those stats with that efficiency. Jordan scored more but he took more shots.

I'll tell you what...how about TS% and eFG% then?

Speaking just in terms of offensive production...and either in PEAK or CAREER, who was a more EFFICIENT shooter and really, a BETTER SCORER?

Bird, or Adrian Dantley?

Dantley BLOWS Bird AWAY...

[Kblaze8855]

Dantley, and probably MANY other players who WERE better offensively than Bird.

Adrian ****ing dantley?

I remember Dantley. Well. Aside from 8 second backing down post scoring he did nothing as well as Larry Birdo n offense. He was a worse shooter, a worse ball handler, a worse off the ball player, bogged down the offense, and was not 1/10th as good a passer.

Adrian Dantley had numbers due to a system that force fed him the ball and his legit skills within 14 feet. the only thing Dantley does on a level greater than(or even equal to) larry on offense is score with is back to the basket. He had a really good midrange jumper too but unlike Larry he didnt get it off on the move on a high level. He damn near had a set shot. As did Larry....but Larrys was far more accurate and he had more range.

Comparing Larry to Dantley is like comparing Kevin Garnetts offense in his prime to Al Jeffersons.

Both might score 22 or so a game but one is better at all but one element of offensive basketball.

[ginobli2311]

The repeated use and stressing of the word "career" feels like you want us to disregard the ability to play basketball in favor of things decided by largely circumstantial issues. If we are putting basketball playing aside and just going off a career rundown I dont see how Mikan isnt ranked over 4-5 of the first posts top 10. And if we value 5 rings at face value and disregard that one guy has 3 times the MVPs im not sure how we dont have Hondo near the top 10 or maybe higher. 8 rings and 2 without russell one while he was a 29/9/8 or so level player and another when he was still a star and the teams leader. He would be like a 3 time finals MVP if they had them his whole career.

If career really is the issue the top 10 would look quite a bit different.

finally someone who gets it. ranking careers is pointless. just go down the list of players who have good stats and rings and rank them accordingly.

if we are ranking players its more fun. therefore saying things like 5 rings vs 3 rings is somewhat pointless without putting them into context or talking about circumstances at all.

bird is definitely in the top 7 all time and has an argument against everyone not named jordan/russell/kareem/wilt in my opinion.

[joyner82]

I'll tell you what...how about TS% and eFG% then?

Speaking just in terms of offensive production...and either in PEAK or CAREER, who was a more EFFICIENT shooter and really, a BETTER SCORER?

Bird, or Adrian Dantley?

Dantley BLOWS Bird AWAY...

If you want to base it off of TS% then Dantley is the greatest scorer in the history of the game and it's not even close. He destroys Jordan as well.

[Bigsmoke]

like around 4 or 5.

[jlauber]

The repeated use and stressing of the word "career" feels like you want us to disregard the ability to play basketball in favor of things decided by largely circumstantial issues. If we are putting basketball playing aside and just going off a career rundown I dont see how Mikan isnt ranked over 4-5 of the first posts top 10. And if we value 5 rings at face value and disregard that one guy has 3 times the MVPs im not sure how we dont have Hondo near the top 10 or maybe higher. 8 rings and 2 without russell one while he was a 29/9/8 or so level player and another when he was still a star and the teams leader. He would be like a 3 time finals MVP if they had them his whole career.

If career really is the issue the top 10 would look quite a bit different.

Obviously CAREER is a combination of all of those areas. And, DEFENSE is seldom acknowledged in these discussions, either. Rings are important, as are MVP awards, but they can be misleading, too. Shaq and Kobe have each won ONE MVP award...BOTH probably should have a MINIMUM of THREE. Wilt would have a strong case for an MVP award in EVERY year of the decade of the 60's (and probably should have won it in '72 as well.) And rings are TEAM achievements, as well. And, that is one reason why Wilt, and his two rings, is still rated highly. He nearly (and I mean NEARLY) won FIVE more. That he did not was certainly not HIS fault.

And, yes, longevity with brilliance counts considerably more than a couple of outstanding seasons alone. Kareem, Kobe, Olajuwon, Shaq, and others all get extra credit for this.

Post-season play, whether in wins or losses, is important. West was certainly a better post-season player than Bird...especially if you include "clutch"...despite only one ring. Here again, Chamberlain blows Bird away, as well, even with one less ring.

How about IMPACT? Here again, Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, Shaq...they all changed the game.

Take a look at MY list...

1. Russell
2. MJ
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Kareem
6. Duncan/Shaq
7. Shaq/Duncan
8. Kobe
9. Olajuwon

10 Bird

and tell me who Bird supplants, based on all of that criteria?

[MasterDurant24]

Obviously CAREER is a combination of all of those areas. And, DEFENSE is seldom acknowledged in these discussions, either. Rings are important, as are MVP awards, but they can be misleading, too. Shaq and Kobe have each won ONE MVP award...BOTH probably should have a MINIMUM of THREE. Wilt would have a strong case for an MVP award in EVERY year of the decade of the 60's (and probably should have won it in '72 as well.) And rings are TEAM achievements, as well. And, that is one reason why Wilt, and his two rings, is still rated highly. He nearly (and I mean NEARLY) won FIVE more. That he did not was certainly not HIS fault.

And, yes, longevity with brilliance counts considerably more than a couple of outstanding seasons alone. Kareem, Kobe, Olajuwon, Shaq, and others all get extra credit for this.

Post-season play, whether in wins or losses, is important. West was certainly a better post-season player than Bird...especially if you include "clutch"...despite only one ring. Here again, Chamberlain blows Bird away, as well, even with one less ring.

How about IMPACT? Here again, Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, Shaq...they all changed the game.

Take a look at MY list...

1. Russell
2. MJ
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Kareem
6. Duncan/Shaq
7. Shaq/Duncan
8. Kobe
9. Olajuwon

10 Bird

and tell me who Bird supplants, based on all of that criteria?
Okay, then John Havlicek should be in the top 7. Based on that criteria.

Bird didn't have impact? Bird and Magic saved the NBA. He proved that unathletic, work-their-ass-off, fundamentally sound players could be a star in the leauge.

[jlauber]

Adrian ****ing dantley?

I remember Dantley. Well. Aside from 8 second backing down post scoring he did nothing as well as Larry Birdo n offense. He was a worse shooter, a worse ball handler, a worse off the ball player, bogged down the offense, and was not 1/10th as good a passer.

Adrian Dantley had numbers due to a system that force fed him the ball and his legit skills within 14 feet. the only thing Dantley does on a level greater than(or even equal to) larry on offense is score with is back to the basket. He had a really good midrange jumper too but unlike Larry he didnt get it off on the move on a high level. He damn near had a set shot. As did Larry....but Larrys was far more accurate and he had more range.

Comparing Larry to Dantley is like comparing Kevin Garnetts offense in his prime to Al Jeffersons.

Both might score 22 or so a game but one is better at all but one element of offensive basketball.

So Bird, and his range was a better and more dominant offensive player than Shaq and Wilt (or MJ and Kobe)? C'mon now...that is RIDICULOUS.

[ginobli2311]

Okay, then John Havlicek should be in the top 7. Based on that criteria.

this. jlaubers criteria makes no sense. hondo must be in the top 6 or 7 then.

[ginobli2311]

So Bird, and his range was a better and more dominant offensive player than Shaq and Wilt (or MJ and Kobe)? C'mon now...that is RIDICULOUS.

bird was a better offensive player than kobe. passing matters. so does all the efficiency levels and shooting.

[jlauber]

this. jlaubers criteria makes no sense. hondo must be in the top 6 or 7 then.

Huh? Using rings,...perhaps. Based on EVERYTHING I just posted? Are you kidding me? How many scoring titles, rebounding titles, DPOY's, assist titles, FG%...RULE CHANGES, and total IMPACT, did Hondo have on the game. Hell, he wasn't even the best player on his own team for cryingoutloud.

You guys are just being ridiculous.

[jlauber]

bird was a better offensive player than kobe. passing matters. so does all the efficiency levels and shooting.

Bird's FG% compared to Kobe's is not dramatically higher when you factor in LEAGUE AVERAGE. Bird played in the 80's... consistently .480 to .490 league-wide FG% averages.

In terms of pure scoring, Kobe crushes Bird. More ppg in a much tougher defensive era. And, in the post-season, Kobe buries Bird in scoring, and their career FG% 's are very close if you factor in league-wide FG%. In fact, in the post-season, Kobe was a more efficient and more explosive 3pt shooter, as well.

[MasterDurant24]

So Bird, and his range was a better and more dominant offensive player than Shaq and Wilt (or MJ and Kobe)? C'mon now...that is RIDICULOUS.
Dominant means hard to stop. Shaq is a gigantic, 300+ bully. Wilt was more athletic and longer than anyone in his era. MJ is a quick, strong superfreak. So yea, they may be more dominant But Bird? Bird is maybe more polished and skilled than any of them.

[ginobli2311]

Huh? Using rings,...perhaps. Based on EVERYTHING I just posted? Are you kidding me? How many scoring titles, rebounding titles, DPOY's, assist titles, FG%...RULE CHANGES, and total IMPACT, did Hondo have on the game. Hell, he wasn't even the best player on his own team for cryingoutloud.

You guys are just being ridiculous.

and neither was kobe for his first 8 years dude. kobe has played on the most talented or 2nd most talented team in the league for 11 of his 14 years in the league. hondo was the best player on 2 of his title teams and would have won 3 finals mvps for sure. his numbers are great and he was arguably the best perimeter defender in the league when he played.

sorry.....your criteria does not work. a lot of these awards and stuff came about after hondo played as well.

[OldSchoolBBall]

lol @ mindless Laker fans like jlauber. :oldlol: Double lol @ the notion that Magic was the best player in the league in '85 and '86. 1987 was the first year he had a case, and Bird was AT THE VERY LEAST right there with him up to and including 1988.

[jlauber]

and neither was kobe for his first 8 years dude. kobe has played on the most talented or 2nd most talented team in the league for 11 of his 14 years in the league. hondo was the best player on 2 of his title teams and would have won 3 finals mvps for sure. his numbers are great and he was arguably the best perimeter defender in the league when he played.

sorry.....your criteria does not work. a lot of these awards and stuff came about after hondo played as well.

You are not using MY criteria then. Go ahead, YOU rank Hondo in the top-10 then.

If you are going by rings...Sam Jones (10), KC Jones (8), and Robert Horry (7) are among the all-time greats.

[west]

I'm not old enough to watch Bird daily basis but i have seen a lot of videos of him, putting him right at number 10 or putting Kobe over him is just disrespectful to Larry Legend.

[ginobli2311]

Bird's FG% compared to Kobe's is not dramatically higher when you factor in LEAGUE AVERAGE. Bird played in the 80's... consistently .480 to .490 league-wide FG% averages.

In terms of pure scoring, Kobe crushes Bird. More ppg in a much tougher defensive era. And, in the post-season, Kobe buries Bird in scoring, and their career FG% 's are very close if you factor in league-wide FG%. In fact, in the post-season, Kobe was a more efficient and more explosive 3pt shooter, as well.

league averages are flawed. why? because the game was played inside out back then. players took better shots as well. its that simple. the league average fg% is lower now because its totally perimeter dominated. the mere fact that the league fg% is as high as it is currently with all the threes being taken just proves how much easier it is to score right now from the perimeter.

does everyone here want to know the reason why players take more threes now? you ready? its because defenders can't press up and take away space at the three point line because of the defensive rules. defenders will either get blown by or called for a touch foul.....so perimeter players have more space to shoot threes without a hand in their face. so they take threes because they can make them at a high enough rate.......bingo.

come on people. think logically.

[MasterDurant24]

Bird's FG% compared to Kobe's is not dramatically higher when you factor in LEAGUE AVERAGE. Bird played in the 80's... consistently .480 to .490 league-wide FG% averages.

In terms of pure scoring, Kobe crushes Bird. More ppg in a much tougher defensive era. And, in the post-season, Kobe buries Bird in scoring, and their career FG% 's are very close if you factor in league-wide FG%. In fact, in the post-season, Kobe was a more efficient and more explosive 3pt shooter, as well.
:rolleyes:

[MasterDurant24]

You are not using MY criteria then. Go ahead, YOU rank Hondo in the top-10 then.

If you are going by rings...Sam Jones (10), KC Jones (8), and Robert Horry (7) are among the all-time greats.
You are an ignorant fool.

[ginobli2311]

You are not using MY criteria then. Go ahead, YOU rank Hondo in the top-10 then.

If you are going by rings...Sam Jones (10), KC Jones (8), and Robert Horry (7) are among the all-time greats.

all about context dude. hondo was a flat out better player than sam or kc or horry.

they don't pass the eye test. its that simple

lets turn this around. what does kobe do better than bird?

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Take a look at MY list...

1. Russell
2. MJ
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Kareem
6. Duncan/Shaq
7. Shaq/Duncan
8. Kobe
9. Olajuwon

10 Bird

and tell me who Bird supplants, based on all of that criteria?

Bird >>> Kobe, Olajuwon, Shaq, TD
I base this on having actually watched all of them play, their entire careers, during good years and bad, in good health and bad.

also, not that this even matters, but Bird played against, and beat (on the biggest stage), a MUCH better team than Kobe, Olajuwon, Shaq, or TD ever faced (excepting the Bulls, which those guys never beat at the highest level).

[ThaRegul8r]

this. jlaubers criteria makes no sense. hondo must be in the top 6 or 7 then.

Huh? Using rings,...perhaps. Based on EVERYTHING I just posted? Are you kidding me? How many scoring titles, rebounding titles, DPOY's, assist titles, FG%...RULE CHANGES, and total IMPACT, did Hondo have on the game. Hell, he wasn't even the best player on his own team for cryingoutloud.

I like Hondo, but in '68-69, an old Russell in the last season of his career was fourth in MVP voting while Havlicek was nowhere to be found. When Boston posted their best record in franchise history in '73 at 68-14, Cowens was MVP and Havlicek was four spots below him in the voting. With they won their first post-Russell championship in '73-74, Cowens was 4th in the MVP voting, and Havlicek was 9th. In '74-75, Cowens was 2nd, and Havlicek was 7th. In '75-76, Cowens was 3rd, and Havlicek was nowhere to be found.

[Kblaze8855]

So Bird, and his range was a better and more dominant offensive player than Shaq and Wilt (or MJ and Kobe)? C'mon now...that is RIDICULOUS.

This trend of stating things as if the other side said them and then calling it stupid when it was your idea to begin with must end. You spoke on Adrian Dantley. I talked about adrian dantley. You then ask me if Bird is better than Wilt and such due to range as if it is in the least bit related?

If you have to change the subject then do so without such tricks. Adrian Dantley wasnt near the offensive player Larry Bird was and if your only response to that claim is to make an absurd extrapolation to involve players I didnt mention perhaps you shouldnt have said he was to begin with.

Adrian Dantley being a better offensive player than Bird is the kind of thing that just screams of either ignorance or a total disconnect between ability and what you find on a statsheet and both of them tell me I should just leave you alone now.

Adrian Dantley>Bird...on offense?

Yea. Carry on without me.

[jlauber]

all about context dude. hondo was a flat out better player than sam or kc or horry.

they don't pass the eye test. its that simple

lets turn this around. what does kobe do better than bird?

In terms of CAREER? Bird edges him in MVP awards, 3-1 (but Kobe was clearly the best player in the league in at least two more...Nash and Nowitzki have no case there.) Finals MVPs, 2-2...but how about POST-SEASON dominance. Bird's FG% of .472 is not considerably better than Kobe's .448 considering that Bird played in an era of at .480 league wide average to Kobe's .450. Scoring? Bird had post-season highs of 27.5, 27.0, and 26 ppg. Kobe has FOUR over 30, and then 29.4, 29.2, and 27.9. Bird was a better passer (6.5 to 4.8) and rebounder (10.3 to 5.2.) Defensively, Kobe has been better, plain-and-simple.

BUT, remember, Kobe has been to SEVEN Finals (Bird to five), and has won FIVE rings to three.

And don't forget...I have Kobe at EIGHTH on my list, as well.

So, you would take Bird over Kobe? And Olajuwon?

How about Duncan, Shaq, Kareem, Wilt, Magic, MJ, and Russell?

[jlauber]

This trend of stating things as if the other side said them and then calling it stupid when it was your idea to begin with must end. You spoke on Adrian Dantley. I talked about adrian dantley. You then ask me if Bird is better than Wilt and such due to range as if it is in the least bit related?

If you have to change the subject then do so without such tricks. Adrian Dantley wasnt near the offensive player Larry Bird was and if your only response to that claim is to make an absurd extrapolation to involve players I didnt mention perhaps you shouldnt have said he was to begin with.

Adrian Dantley being a better offensive player than Bird is the kind of thing that just screams of either ignorance or a total disconnect between ability and what you find on a statsheet and both of them tell me I should just leave you alone now.

Adrian Dantley>Bird...on offense?

Yea. Carry on without me.

Yes Adrian Dantley WAS a better offensive player. The NUMBERS do not lie. Just because Bird had better range does not make him a better offensive player. Shaq probably shot 90% of his shots inside 10 feet, and maybe as many as 50% from five feet. Does Bird's range make him a more dominant scorer?

[BallPhunk]

This trend of stating things as if the other side said them and then calling it stupid when it was your idea to begin with must end. You spoke on Adrian Dantley. I talked about adrian dantley. You then ask me if Bird is better than Wilt and such due to range as if it is in the least bit related?

If you have to change the subject then do so without such tricks. Adrian Dantley wasnt near the offensive player Larry Bird was and if your only response to that claim is to make an absurd extrapolation to involve players I didnt mention perhaps you shouldnt have said he was to begin with.

Adrian Dantley being a better offensive player than Bird is the kind of thing that just screams of either ignorance or a total disconnect between ability and what you find on a statsheet and both of them tell me I should just leave you alone now.

Adrian Dantley>Bird...on offense?

Yea. Carry on without me.

Maybe the best post of the year.

[godofgods]

Bird >> Magic (who had the luxury of having a GOAT center in his team) >>>>>>> rapist Kobe.

[jlauber]

I like Hondo, but in '68-69, an old Russell in the last season of his career was fourth in MVP voting while Havlicek was nowhere to be found. When Boston posted their best record in franchise history in '73 at 68-14, Cowens was MVP and Havlicek was four spots below him in the voting. With they won their first post-Russell championship in '73-74, Cowens was 4th in the MVP voting, and Havlicek was 9th. In '74-75, Cowens was 2nd, and Havlicek was 7th. In '75-76, Cowens was 3rd, and Havlicek was nowhere to be found.

I like Havlicek, and Sam Jones a lot, too. But, I don't have either of them near my top-10.

[ginobli2311]

In terms of CAREER? Bird edges him in MVP awards, 3-1 (but Kobe was clearly the best player in the league in at least two more...Nash and Nowitzki have no case there.) Finals MVPs, 2-2...but how about POST-SEASON dominance. Bird's FG% of .472 is not considerably better than Kobe's .448 considering that Bird played in an era of at .480 league wide average to Kobe's .450. Scoring? Bird had post-season highs of 27.5, 27.0, and 26 ppg. Kobe has FOUR over 30, and then 29.4, 29.2, and 27.9. Bird was a better passer (6.5 to 4.8) and rebounder (10.3 to 5.2.) Defensively, Kobe has been better, plain-and-simple.

BUT, remember, Kobe has been to SEVEN Finals (Bird to five), and has won FIVE rings to three.

And don't forget...I have Kobe at EIGHTH on my list, as well.

So, you would take Bird over Kobe? And Olajuwon?

How about Duncan, Shaq, Kareem, Wilt, Magic, MJ, and Russell?

again. your league averages argument holds no water. the league average was higher in bird's era because it was played inside out. its that simple.

[Fatal9]

Yes Adrian Dantley WAS a better offensive player. The NUMBERS do not lie. Just because Bird had better range does not make him a better offensive player. Shaq probably shot 90% of his shots inside 10 feet, and maybe as many as 50% from five feet. Does Bird's range make him a more dominant scorer?
What a clown.

[godofgods]

Adrian Dantley>Bird...on offense?


That is racism at its finest.

[Jacks3]

Bird's stats are inflated by playing in the ridiculously fast paced 80's and getting to play nightly against a bunch of no-defense SF's: Dantley,English,Dominique, Aguirre, Kiki Vandeweghe, John Drew, Tripucka, Chambers, Walter Davis, Weldman, Bernard King, Albert King, Jay Vincent, Purvis Short, Wilkes, Bailey, Johnson, Mike Mitchell, Woolridge, Dale Ellis, Eddie Johnson...

[SinJackal]

here is my list:

1. jordan
2. russell
3. magic
4. wilt
5. kareem
6. duncan
7. bird
8. shaq
9. hakeem
10. kobe

for bird. it depends on how you rank players. bird only played 13 years. so if longevity is a huge part of your rankings then bird will dip a little. bird was probably the most complete offensive player of all time. 24 points 10 boards 6 assists for his career. think about that. he could beat you in the post. he could beat you off the dribble. he could beat you from behind the three point line. he was one of the best passers of all time. he had no offensive weaknesses.

his career playoff peaks are also amazing. 28 points 11 boards 6 assists in 84. 27 points 10 boards 7 assists in 87. he won 3 mvp awards. he is 3rd all time in mvp awards shares. he was a very good defender. he has a better playoff defensive rating and more defensive win shares than kobe for example. his win shares per 48 minutes is better than kobe's as well.

bird was just an all around better basketball player than hakeem and kobe and shaq in my opinion.

I agree with this list. Except I have Magic and Kareem swapped around.

[dyna]

1. Michael Jordan
2. K.Abdul-Jabbar
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Larry Bird
5. Magic Johnson
6. Bill Russell
7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Tim Duncan
10. Kobe Bryant

[godofgods]

[QUOTE=G-Funk]

[chopchop20]

Probably around #8 or so. I think Kobe's passed him now.

[jlauber]

What a clown.

First of all, I am not saying that Dantley was a better PLAYER than Bird. I didn't even bring the topic up, but these claims that Bird was such an efficient shooter were ridiculous.

Ok, they tie in career ppg at 24.3 ppg. Dantley's has a career edge in FG% at .540 to .496. He has a career edge in TS% at .617 to .564. And he holds a career edge in eFG% at .540 to .514.

How about PEAK seasons? Dantley had FOUR seasons over 30 ppg (30.7 ppg on .559 shooting; 30.3 ppg on .570; 30.7 ppg on .580; and 30.6 ppg on .558.)
Bird has ZERO seasons that come close to those, in either scoring or shooting.

[MasterDurant24]

First of all, I am not saying that Dantley was a better PLAYER than Bird. I didn't even bring the topic up, but these claims that Bird was such an efficient shooter were ridiculous.

Ok, they tie in career ppg at 24.3 ppg. Dantley's has a career edge in FG% at .540 to .496. He has a career edge in TS% at .617 to .564. And he holds a career edge in eFG% at .540 to .514.

How about PEAK seasons? Dantley had FOUR seasons over 30 ppg (30.7 ppg on .559 shooting; 30.3 ppg on .570; 30.7 ppg on .580; and 30.6 ppg on .558.)
Bird has ZERO seasons that come close to those, in either scoring or shooting.
Bird played with Danny Ainge, Kevin McHale, Robert Parish, Tiny Archibald, and Dennis Johnson. That decreases his scoring quite a bit. Bird didn't have to score alot. Bird actually did other things than score, which also took away from his scoring. Bird started to have back problems.

[godofgods]

Magic beat him in college,in the finals 2 to 1 and could play 5 positions.


LOL, one lucky game against Philly and suddenly this AIDS infested clown can play center? That's like saying Adam Morrison will have 10 consecutive seasons of 30 ppg after he scored 30 points in his rookie year.

If Magic had to play center for extended period of time, he'd be banged up like he's never banged up before - he'd probably get AIDS earlier.

But then again your nickname reflected your idiocy.

[MasterDurant24]

LOL, one lucky game against Philly and suddenly this AIDS infested clown can play center? That's like saying Adam Morrison will have 10 consecutive seasons of 30 ppg after he scored 30 points in his rookie year.

If Magic had to play center for extended period of time, he'd be banged up like he's never banged up before - he'd probably get AIDS earlier.

But then again your nickname reflected your idiocy.
Hey now, don't be making fun of AIDS.

[godofgods]

Magic CARRIED LA to FIVE titles.

Wrong fool. Magic had a GOAT in Kareem in his team. Bird didn't. Magic didn't carry any Faker team until 1987. Fact.

[Bernie Nips]

jlauber:

Post the PPG stats for both Kobe and Bird's teammates during their playoff runs. I think you'll find Bird didn't score as much as Kobe because DING DING DING DING DING he set up other players a whole lot more to help him with scoring. Replace McHale with Andersen Varejao, I think you would find Bird averaging a buttload more points per game.

[ThaRegul8r]

[QUOTE=godofgods][QUOTE=G-Funk]

[BallPhunk]

Bird's stats are inflated by playing in the ridiculously fast paced 80's and getting to play nightly against a bunch of no-defense SF's: Dantley,English,Dominique, Aguirre, Kiki Vandeweghe, John Drew, Tripucka, Chambers, Walter Davis, Weldman, Bernard King, Albert King, Jay Vincent, Purvis Short, Wilkes, Bailey, Johnson, Mike Mitchell, Woolridge, Dale Ellis, Eddie Johnson...

I really really hope this is sarcastic.

THIS MIGHT BE A GOOD TIME TO TAKE A BREAK AND WATCH A LITTLE BASKETBALL:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULvo7__wwBU

Passing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhnRtgBGMl4 (the bounce pass down the lane at 1:41 is sick)

[godofgods]

Bird's stats are inflated by playing in the ridiculously fast paced 80's and getting to play nightly against a bunch of no-defense SF's: Dantley,English,Dominique, Aguirre, Kiki Vandeweghe, John Drew, Tripucka, Chambers, Walter Davis, Weldman, Bernard King, Albert King, Jay Vincent, Purvis Short, Wilkes, Bailey, Johnson, Mike Mitchell, Woolridge, Dale Ellis, Eddie Johnson...

Just like Kobe's stats are inflated in playing this soft, no defense era.

Any of those players above can score 82 in a game these days.

[chopchop20]

Just like Kobe's stats are inflated in playing this soft, no defense era.

Any of those players above can score 82 in a game these days.

If you're gonna use the argument that Bird faced tougher competition, then you have to also give a nod to Kobe because Bird played with better teammates.

[Disaprine]

Just like Kobe's stats are inflated in playing this soft, no defense era.

Any of those players above can score 82 in a game these days.
:roll: this guy.

[godofgods]

If you're gonna use the argument that Bird faced tougher competition, then you have to also give a nod to Kobe because Bird played with better teammates.

LOL. Shaq is better than any of Bird's teammates combined.

[MasterDurant24]

LOL. Shaq is better than any of Bird's teammates combined.
:rolleyes:

[AirJordan&Magic]

Bird is easily - EASILY - above Kobe on the all-time list. LMAO @ huge Laker/Kobe groupie jlauber and his agenda. :oldlol:

Bird is 5th-6th for me, behind MJ/Wilt/KAJ/Magic and possibly Russell.

There are times where I have seen Jjauber post and I strongly disagreed with his assesments, but I somewhat agree with him on this thread.

I would not rank Larry Bird higher than 7 on the all time list, myself. Though Larry Bird had arguably a top 3-5 peak/prime, his career was not that much greater than some of the top 10 players.

MJ, Kareem, Magic, Wilt, and Shaq, imo...are easily greater players than Larry Bird. (Russell is a very hard player to rank)
And Tim Duncan, imo, has had a greater career than Bird as well.

And :oldlol: at you saying he is "easily" above Kobe. Why is it exactly that he is easily above him?

Kobe Bryant has had every bit of success as Larry Bird has had in his career.

Larry Bird was a better passer (not even close), better shooter, better rebounder, and was the smarter & more effecient player.
Kobe is a better pure scorer, more polished offensively & has a wider array if moves, better man-to-man defender, and has just as good as a midrange game or even better.

I have Bird ranked over Kobe as well, but this notion that he is easily greater is foolish to me.

[OldSchoolBBall]

There are times where I have seen Jjauber post and I strongly disagreed with his assesments, but I somewhat agree with him on this thread.

I would not rank Larry Bird higher than 7 on the all time list, myself. Though Larry Bird had arguably a top 3-5 peak/prime, his career was not that much greater than some of the top 10 players.

MJ, Kareem, Magic, Wilt, and Shaq, imo...are easily greater players than Larry Bird. (Russell is a very hard player to rank)
And Tim Duncan, imo, has had a greater career than Bird as well.

And :oldlol: at you saying he is "easily" above Kobe. Why is it exactly that he is easily above him?

Kobe Bryant has had every bit of success as Larry Bird has had in his career.

Larry Bird was a better passer (not even close), better shooter, better rebounder, and was the smarter & more effecient player.
Kobe is a better pure scorer, more polished offensively & has a wider array if moves, better man-to-man defender, and has just as good as a midrange game or even better.

I have Bird ranked over Kobe as well, but this notion that he is easily greater is foolish to me.

Dude said that Magic was "easily the best player in the league in '85 and '86", which were two of Bird's peak seasons -- seasons where he was nearly universally seen as not only the best player in the league, but also possibly of all time. Suffice it to say, jlauber is EXTREMELY Lakers-biased.

[Jacks3]

Just like Kobe's stats are inflated in playing this soft, no defense era.

Any of those players above can score 82 in a game these days.
This "soft no- defense era" is still easily better than the laughable defenses of the 80's. Oh, and pre-prime Bryant played in the 98-04 era, which was the the toughest in history, and still was a dominant player.:oldlol:

[chopchop20]

There are times where I have seen Jjauber post and I strongly disagreed with his assesments, but I somewhat agree with him on this thread.

I would not rank Larry Bird higher than 7 on the all time list, myself. Though Larry Bird had arguably a top 3-5 peak/prime, his career was not that much greater than some of the top 10 players.

MJ, Kareem, Magic, Wilt, and Shaq, imo...are easily greater players than Larry Bird. (Russell is a very hard player to rank)
And Tim Duncan, imo, has had a greater career than Bird as well.

And :oldlol: at you saying he is "easily" above Kobe. Why is it exactly that he is easily above him?

Kobe Bryant has had every bit of success as Larry Bird has had in his career.

Larry Bird was a better passer (not even close), better shooter, better rebounder, and was the smarter & more effecient player.
Kobe is a better pure scorer, more polished offensively & has a wider array if moves, better man-to-man defender, and has just as good as a midrange game or even better.

I have Bird ranked over Kobe as well, but this notion that he is easily greater is foolish to me.

I don't see how Bird is a better passer... maybe that's just me.

* Kobe is more accomplished than Bird
* Kobe has more longevity than Bird
* And what it really comes down to for me, Kobe is a far more dynamic player than Bird. The guy has been the main facilitator of the Laker's offense for over 10 years. There's no way Bird could fill that role half way as effectively.

[AirJordan&Magic]

Bird's stats are inflated by playing in the ridiculously fast paced 80's and getting to play nightly against a bunch of no-defense SF's: Dantley,English,Dominique, Aguirre, Kiki Vandeweghe, John Drew, Tripucka, Chambers, Walter Davis, Weldman, Bernard King, Albert King, Jay Vincent, Purvis Short, Wilkes, Bailey, Johnson, Mike Mitchell, Woolridge, Dale Ellis, Eddie Johnson...

Bernard King was not a bad defender.

[chopchop20]

LOL. Shaq is better than any of Bird's teammates combined.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Bird played with 4 Players of the 50 All-time Greatest Players (counting lame Walton)

Bird played with 5 Hall of Famers (counting lame Walton)

[AirJordan&Magic]

I don't see how Bird is a better passer... maybe that's just me.

* Kobe is more accomplished than Bird
* Kobe has more longevity than Bird
* And what it really comes down to for me, Kobe is a far more dynamic player than Bird. The guy has been the main facilitator of the Laker's offense for over 10 years. There's no way Bird could fill that role half way as effectively.

:oldlol: How can you not see that Bird is the better passer/ playmaker? It really isn't close to be honest.

[Jacks3]

Actually, Bryant is comparable as play-maker, though it's true that Bird was a far better passer. There's a difference.

[AirJordan&Magic]

Dude said that Magic was "easily the best player in the league in '85 and '86", which were two of Bird's peak seasons -- seasons where he was nearly universally seen as not only the best player in the league, but also possibly of all time. Suffice it to say, jlauber is EXTREMELY Lakers-biased.

:oldlol: :oldlol: Jjauber is a very good & respectable poster when he doesn't get worked up over Wilt.

But that comment about Magic being the best player in 1985 & 1986 is ridiculous.

[AirJordan&Magic]

Actually, Bryant is comparable as play-maker, though it's true that Bird was a far better passer. There's a difference.

I can agree with this. Playmaking and passing is different.

In terms of playmaking, yes, they are comparable. But Bird was EASILY the better passer.

[chopchop20]

I can agree with this. Playmaking and passing is different.

In terms of playmaking, yes, they are comparable. But Bird was EASILY the better passer.

Based on what... highlights? :confusedshrug:

If you say assists, maybe Bird just passed the ball more often?

Like I said, I wanna know what people or basing this on -- not saying that Kobe is definitely better. I just wanna know the criteria

[chopchop20]

:oldlol: How can you not see that Bird is the better passer/ playmaker? It really isn't close to be honest.

Playmaking... are u serious. Kobe breaks dudes down off the dribble so much more. Plus all of the big shots by Horry, Fisher, Fox, etc... half of them come from Kobe passes

[AirJordan&Magic]

Based on what... highlights? :confusedshrug:

If you say assists, maybe Bird just passed the ball more often?

Like I said, I wanna know what people or basing this on -- not saying that Kobe is definitely better. I just wanna know the criteria

Assists at times can be a very overrated statistic. My opinion on the matter has nothing to do with the assists or higlights.

It comes from watching the games. Bird was an amazing outlet passer, he knew how to put his teammates in the perfect position to score an easy basket, was as skilled as a passer as you can be, and his court vision was off the charts.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I don't see how Bird is a better passer... maybe that's just me.

Yeah, it's definitely just you. :oldlol: Bird is easily a better passer than Kobe.

[chopchop20]

Assists at times can be a very overrated statistic. My opinion on the matter has nothing to do with the assists or higlights.

It comes from watching the games. Bird was an amazing outlet passer, he knew how to put his teammates in the perfect position to score an easy basket, was as skilled as a passer as you can be, and his court vision was off the charts.

I'll give you that... and like I said, this is not to argue that Kobe is definitely better.

And you're right about assists. If you watch the game, sometimes the "hockey assist" is the pass that really sets up the play -- the pass before the final pass. Especially when you break the defense down off the dribble and swing the ball to the opposite side of the court.

As for Kobe, I think he just has the reputation as a shooter. But the guy has good court vision/recognition. He's fully capable of being a good assist guy

If you wanna watch the 1st minute of this clip, you'll see what I mean: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igGG74MMh8I&feature=related

Watch around minute 5 too

[chopchop20]

Yeah, it's definitely just you. :oldlol: Bird is easily a better passer than Kobe.

Why do you say that though -- based on what?

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Why do you say that though -- based on what?

Like I keep telling people, Bird was 2 mental steps ahead of everyone else.

[chopchop20]

Like I keep telling people, Bird was 2 mental steps ahead of everyone else.

I hear you but what does that mean if you can't objectify it? Don't tell me, show me -- otherwise it's totally subjective

[KobeDaMamba]

:oldlol: at the Bird groupies. Trolls galore in this forum. The defense Bird faced isnt close to the defense from 99-04 which was the league's peak defensively. Bird and Ainge even said defense is better now.


LOL, one lucky game against Philly and suddenly this AIDS infested clown can play center? That's like saying Adam Morrison will have 10 consecutive seasons of 30 ppg after he scored 30 points in his rookie year.

If Magic had to play center for extended period of time, he'd be banged up like he's never banged up before - he'd probably get AIDS earlier.

But then again your nickname reflected your idiocy.

Idiot. Magic played the 4 in his 96 comeback and was schooling cats at the age of 36 without having played pro ball in nearly 5 years. He wouldnt have much trouble playing the 5 on offense with his post game and edge in quickness. He would get killed on defense but no worse than guys like Amare, Lee and these other clowns today. Just STFU.

[chopchop20]

:oldlol: at the Bird groupies. Trolls galore in this forum. The defense Bird faced isnt close to the defense from 99-04 which was the league's peak defensively. Bird and Ainge even said defense is better now.



Idiot. Magic played the 4 in his 96 comeback and was schooling cats at the age of 36 without having played pro ball in nearly 5 years. He wouldnt have much trouble playing the 5 on offense with his post game and edge in quickness. He would get killed on defense but no worse than guys like Amare, Lee and these other clowns today. Just STFU.

I understand the Bird "groupies" if you wanna call them that. He was a transcendent player in terms of his impact on the NBA. Him, Magic, and MJ are head and shoulders above players today in that regards.

But I think Larry Bird would tell you himself that Kobe is the better player. And there's no disrespect in that -- a lot of people who don't like Kobe fail to see what this guy has done/accomplished in this league. It's pretty darn impressive

[KobeDaMamba]

I understand the Bird "groupies" if you wanna call them that. He was a transcendent player in terms of his impact on the NBA. Him, Magic, and MJ are head and shoulders above players today in that regards.

But I think Larry Bird would tell you himself that Kobe is the better player. And there's no disrespect in that -- a lot of people who don't like Kobe fail to see what this guy has done/accomplished in this league. It's pretty darn impressive

I dont think theres a big difference between Kobes and Birds peak play. Bird has the edge in court vision and rebounding due to his size but Kobes a better scorer and defender specifically man defense. What sets them apart is Kobes accolades and longevity.

To be fair to Bird, his back problems and other nagging injuries shortened his career but it is what it is. He also came to the league pretty late around 23 or 24 years old.

[jlauber]

I personally haven't read anything here that would move Bird up from #10 on my list. Best case scenario would be #8 over Kobe and Olajuwon. And, Kobe's career looks more impressive to me. Olajuwon was better in the post-season, and he had a longer career.

Duncan's overall resume, especially carrying weaker (and has been pointed out, completely different) rosters to titles (and more of them) gives him an edge.

Shaq? Aside from Shaq's lack of MVP's, which is a disgrace, Bird has NO case over him. NONE.

Kareem? A 20 year career with more accolades, stats, rings, and better post-seasons.

Magic? I have covered this one. Better career. Better winner. Great for every season (hell, he even received MVP votes in the 80-81 season...when he missed 45 games.) More clutch (game six of the '80 Finals, and game four of the '87 Finals.) Magic was even carrying Laker teams to records of 63-19 and 58-24 (and a Finals appearance...without Kareem!) Better and far more efficient in the post-season...Bird shot .472, Magic .506. And in the Finals, Bird shot .455, Magic shot .516. Bird NEVER shot over 50% in his five Finals appearances, Magic had FIVE Finals out of his nine in which he broke the 50% barrier, including a high of .541. More Finals and more rings...with equal supporting casts. Magic was a bigger "winner"...PERIOD.

MJ? I am not one to worship the ground that Jordan crapped on...but, you would be hard-pressed to find 10% of the basketball fans out there that would rate Bird over MJ. If you factor in rings and post-season dominance...well, Bird is WAY behind him.

Russell? 11 rings. 27 post-season series wins in 29 tries. Voted the greatest player of all-time in 1980. More MVPs (and would certainly have had FAR more Finals MVP.) Russell's DEFENSE was more dominant than Bird's offense.

Wilt? I already took care of this. Wilt was FAR more DOMINANT in EVERY aspect of the game (except 3pt shooting...of which Bird's post-season is a non-factor.) Hell Chamberlain even made more than 2000 FTs than Bird. After those stats, it is simply no contest. Wilt was a better passer (don't even attempt to dispute this fact...Wilt LED the league in assists one year, and finsihed third in another.) Defense? Wilt was voted first team all-defense in his last two seasons, at ages 35 and 36. Had the league had that award before 1969, Wilt would certainly have won more. Blocked shots? Bird Blocked 755 shots in his CAREER. There is a strong chance that Wilt had ONE season with that many. Rebounding. Wilt, quite simply, was the most dominant rebounder in NBA history. He holds virtually every rebounding record, AND, he outrebounded EVERYBODY he faced. Scoring? C'mon...is there ANY reason for me to even post what could be page-after-page of Chamberlain's scoring feats? FG%. Chamberlain won NINE FG% titles, and has the two highest FG% seasons in NBA HISTORY. Once again...Bird has absolutely NO CASE over Wilt.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

I hear you but what does that mean if you can't objectify it? Don't tell me, show me -- otherwise it's totally subjective

I'm not going to youtube to show you, but it was like he could close his eyes, wait a second, then pass the ball on the spot.... like some weird jedi sh!t.

[chopchop20]

I'm not going to youtube to show you, but it was like he could close his eyes, wait a second, then pass the ball on the spot.... like some weird jedi sh!t.


You might be right.... and my memories of Bird started around 85' or so when I was a very young child. I remember watching him play, for sure but maybe there's parts of his game that I did not fully comprehend or understand at the time.

I know watching the old footage of him now, I don't quite see him as great as his reputation. But i understand why older heads see him as a Top 5 player

[chopchop20]

I dont think theres a big difference between Kobes and Birds peak play. Bird has the edge in court vision and rebounding due to his size but Kobes a better scorer and defender specifically man defense. What sets them apart is Kobes accolades and longevity.

To be fair to Bird, his back problems and other nagging injuries shortened his career but it is what it is. He also came to the league pretty late around 23 or 24 years old.

Differences in peak years was the teams that they were on at the time. Bird never averaged 30 PPG in a season but he was winning. Kobe put up 35.4 and unleashed an assault on scoring records unseen by those not named Wilt or MJ -- but his team was losing.

Longevity is big here to me since Bird only played like 13 seasons with the last 3 or 4 being sub-standard. And after 14 years, Kobe is still in the conversation as a Top 3 player having aged far better than his contemporaries like VC, TMac, or AI and even better than dominant players like Duncan, Shaq, and KG

[ginobli2311]

Differences in peak years was the teams that they were on at the time. Bird never averaged 30 PPG in a season but he was winning. Kobe put up 35.4 and unleashed an assault on scoring records unseen by those not named Wilt or MJ -- but his team was losing.

Longevity is big here to me since Bird only played like 13 seasons with the last 3 or 4 being sub-standard. And after 14 years, Kobe is still in the conversation as a Top 3 player having aged far better than his contemporaries like VC, TMac, or AI and even better than dominant players like Duncan, Shaq, and KG

well. kobe has only been an elite player in 10 of his 14 years. bird was elite in 11 of his 13 years ( finishing in the top 10 in mvp voting 11 times)

so kobe still needs another elite year to catch bird in terms of longevity. and at some point.....just playing longer does not make you a better player. bird was better against his competition....he is third all time in mvp awards shares. kobe is 10th all time and way behind bird. 3 mvps to 1. i could go on. bird was the better overall player.

[jlauber]

well. kobe has only been an elite player in 10 of his 14 years. bird was elite in 11 of his 13 years ( finishing in the top 10 in mvp voting 11 times)

so kobe still needs another elite year to catch bird in terms of longevity. and at some point.....just playing longer does not make you a better player. bird was better against his competition....he is third all time in mvp awards shares. kobe is 10th all time and way behind bird. 3 mvps to 1. i could go on. bird was the better overall player.

Kobe was the best player in the league in the year's that Nash and Nowitzki won the award. Even Shaq was robbed a few times (Iverson beating him was a complete disgrace BTW.) So, while MVPs should have merit, they are not always an accurate measurement.

[chopchop20]

well. kobe has only been an elite player in 10 of his 14 years. bird was elite in 11 of his 13 years ( finishing in the top 10 in mvp voting 11 times)

so kobe still needs another elite year to catch bird in terms of longevity. and at some point.....just playing longer does not make you a better player. bird was better against his competition....he is third all time in mvp awards shares. kobe is 10th all time and way behind bird. 3 mvps to 1. i could go on. bird was the better overall player.

I see Kobe playing at an elite level for at least 2 more years.

MVP's... well you could say Kobe was robbed by Nash because his team sucked at the time, but that's not too big of a deal when he has 2 more rings than Bird.

Again to me, Kobe being a much more dynamic player is big. Kobe's off the bounce game, ability to penetrate is far wider than any of the advantages that Bird has over Kobe

[godofgods]

Kobe was the best player in the league in the year's that Nash and Nowitzki won the award. Even Shaq was robbed a few times (Iverson beating him was a complete disgrace BTW.) So, while MVPs should have merit, they are not always an accurate measurement.

No he wasn't. Nash and Dirk were better than Kobe those years.

[jlauber]

The original point was that Bird was NOT a GOAT candidate.

Granted, everyone is entitled to their opinions, but Bird is so far behind the true greats (Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, and Shaq..as well as Duncan)...in a myriad of categories, that I just can't see him any higher than #8. AND, Kobe and Olajuwon seem to have more impressive resumes, as well. Barring injury, and Kobe will most certainly be ranked ahead of him by the vast majority of knowledgeable fans.

[chopchop20]

No he wasn't. Nash and Dirk were better than Kobe those years.

Surely ur not serious....

[ginobli2311]

Kobe was the best player in the league in the year's that Nash and Nowitzki won the award. Even Shaq was robbed a few times (Iverson beating him was a complete disgrace BTW.) So, while MVPs should have merit, they are not always an accurate measurement.

that is why mvp awards shares is very accurate. it accounts for how high you finish in the voting. the simple fact is that bird was consistently in the top 3 players in the league year after year when he played. kobe has not been consistently great like bird.

and sorry. dirk was the deserving mvp in 07. 25 points 9 boards 3 assists.....and part of the 90/50/40 club on a 67 win team.

dirk's PER and win shares per 48 minutes were better than kobe's. kobe actually had no case whatsoever over dirk in 07. more revisionist history. stop it.

kobe had more of an argument to win mvp in 06. but again.....allen iverson scored 33 points on 25 shots while kobe scored 35 points on 27 shots. his scoring outburst is actually far less impressive when you look at what was going on. had kobe been able to win a playoff series that year i would agree with you. but the simple fact that he couldn't get it done up 3-1 with arguably the 2nd best player in the series at his side in odom just proves he wasn't the mvp of the league.

[Scoooter]

Larry Bird was one of the greatest to ever play. Top 5 or 6, easy.

[jlauber]

No he wasn't. Nash and Dirk were better than Kobe those years.

Sure. 35 ppg in a league that averaged 97, on a team of clowns that Kobe took to a 45-37 record. Nash and Nowitzki would have been lucky to get 20 wins on that team.

[Lebron23]

Higher than Kobe Bryant

[Lebron23]

Sure. 35 ppg in a league that averaged 97, on a team of clowns that Kobe took to a 45-37 record. Nash and Nowitzki would have been lucky to get 20 wins on that team.


Suns were 29-59 before they signed Steve Nash.

[Scoooter]

Sure. 35 ppg in a league that averaged 97, on a team of clowns that Kobe took to a 45-37 record. Nash and Nowitzki would have been lucky to get 20 wins on that team.
I don't know about that. Nash at least has a reputation and propensity for making players around him better, even really scrubby ones. Kobe pretty much just does his own thing.

[ginobli2311]

Sure. 35 ppg in a league that averaged 97, on a team of clowns that Kobe took to a 45-37 record. Nash and Nowitzki would have been lucky to get 20 wins on that team.

again. kobe had no case at all over dirk in 07. he had a legit case over nash in 06. but it really was a coin flip and by the way.....kobe finished 4th in 06 mvp voting. lol at the idea that kobe got screwed.

[chains5000]

3 MVPs in a row, when Magic was around.
3 titles in the golden era of the NBA.
Always was the MAN in his team.

Kids...

[jlauber]

Suns were 29-59 before they signed Steve Nash.

And he joined a team that had Amare Stoudamire, Shawn Marion, Joe Johnson, and Quentin Richardson.

Meanwhile in 2006, Kobe had Lamar Odom, Smush Parker, Brian Cook, Chris Mihm, and Kwane Brown.

[ThaRegul8r]

Kobe was the best player in the league in the year's that Nash and Nowitzki won the award. Even Shaq was robbed a few times (Iverson beating him was a complete disgrace BTW.)

That was Shaq's own fault though. No player who publicly makes statements like, "If you don't feed the dog, he won't guard the yard," will ever win MVP. The postseason turned out to be a different story, but the Shaq-Kobe fued was the big story. To be even be caught up in something like that will automatically disqualify you from the MVP. Iverson benefited from it as a result.

There's no reason he shouldn't have won in 2005, though.

[chopchop20]

3 MVPs in a row, when Magic was around.
3 titles in the golden era of the NBA.
Always was the MAN in his team.

Kids...

Easy to be the MAN playing with that many Hall of Famers

As for the 3 MVP's in a row... I'll raise you with 3 Championships in a row -- maybe twice, we shall see in 2011

[chopchop20]

And he joined a team that had Amare Stoudamire, Shawn Marion, Joe Johnson, and Quentin Richardson.

Meanwhile in 2006, Kobe had Lamar Odom, Smush Parker, Brian Cook, Chris Mihm, and Kwane Brown.

Say no more....

[chopchop20]

I don't know about that. Nash at least has a reputation and propensity for making players around him better, even really scrubby ones. Kobe pretty much just does his own thing.

Don't make'em better, make'em CHAMPIONS

[chains5000]

Easy to be the MAN playing with that many Hall of Famers

As for the 3 MVP's in a row... I'll raise you with 3 Championships in a row -- maybe twice, we shall see in 2011
I thought you were talking about Kobe, not Shaq.
I could accept Kobe being huge in rings #2 and #3, but he clearly wasn't that important for the first.

[AirJordan&Magic]

that is why mvp awards shares is very accurate. it accounts for how high you finish in the voting. the simple fact is that bird was consistently in the top 3 players in the league year after year when he played. kobe has not been consistently great like bird.

and sorry. dirk was the deserving mvp in 07. 25 points 9 boards 3 assists.....and part of the 90/50/40 club on a 67 win team.

dirk's PER and win shares per 48 minutes were better than kobe's. kobe actually had no case whatsoever over dirk in 07. more revisionist history. stop it.

kobe had more of an argument to win mvp in 06. but again.....allen iverson scored 33 points on 25 shots while kobe scored 35 points on 27 shots. his scoring outburst is actually far less impressive when you look at what was going on. had kobe been able to win a playoff series that year i would agree with you. but the simple fact that he couldn't get it done up 3-1 with arguably the 2nd best player in the series at his side in odom just proves he wasn't the mvp of the league.

No case whatsoever over Dirk in 2007? Revisionist history? How is that so, idiot?....Kobe Bryant had an EASILY more dominant season than Dirk.
In the beginning of the season, the Lakers struggled a bit and Kobe was pretty much banged up.
After the all star break and Kobe was back into shape, what does he do? He shatters 35+ yr records out of the ass and averages 36 ppg 6 rpg 5 apg on 47% shooting for the remainder of the season.
And then in the playoffs averages 33 ppg 5.2 rpg 4.4 apg on 46% shooting.

What did Dirk do that was so much more impressive? It's funny that you mention "Kobe should have won the playoff series in 06 and he would have deserved mvp" (Despite the Suns being clearly better), but don't mention Dirk's team losing to an 8th seed and him averaging 19.7 ppg 11.2 rpg 2.3 apg on freaking 38% shooting and 21% shooting from the 3.

So Dirk's stats take a huge plummet in the playoffs and they choke a series away with homecourt advantage, but he still was the deserved mvp.........but Kobe leads his team to a 7 game series against the better Suns team and they lose despite him averaging 28 ppg 6.3 rpg 5.1 apg on nearly 50% shooting, and he ruins his case as an Mvp?

[chopchop20]

I thought you were talking about Kobe, not Shaq.
I could accept Kobe being huge in rings #2 and #3, but he clearly wasn't that important for the first.

That's relative though... like trying to determine how much a factor McHale or Parrish or DJ were when Boston won. Or Tiny Archibald was on during ring #1. No to mention Cornbread Maxwell

Just take McHale and Parrish for instance, those guys make Gasol + Bynum look like JV players

[jlauber]

Kobe's 2006 season HAS to rank among the greatest ever (and very similar to Chamberlain's 62-63 season.) When ONE player is responsible for the vast majority of a team's wins. Of course, both Kobe and Wilt proved that with quality supporting casts, they could win championships...something that Nash and Nowitzki obviously have not been able to do.

[godofgods]

Easy to be the MAN playing with that many Hall of Famers

As for the 3 MVP's in a row... I'll raise you with 3 Championships in a row -- maybe twice, we shall see in 2011

Yes in a team with 2 dominant big men - Kobe is just riding Shaq's and Gasol's coattails. :hammerhead:

[chopchop20]

No case whatsoever over Dirk in 2007? Revisionist history? How is that so, idiot?....Kobe Bryant had an EASILY more dominant season than Dirk.
In the beginning of the season, the Lakers struggled a bit and Kobe was pretty much banged up.
After the all star break and Kobe was back into shape, what does he do? He shatters 35+ yr records out of the ass and averages 36 ppg 6 rpg 5 apg on 47% shooting for the remainder of the season.
And then in the playoffs averages 33 ppg 5.2 rpg 4.4 apg on 46% shooting.

What did Dirk do that was so much more impressive? It's funny that you mention "Kobe should have won the playoff series in 06 and he would have deserved mvp" (Despite the Suns being clearly better), but don't mention Dirk's team losing to an 8th seed and him averaging 19.7 ppg 11.2 rpg 2.3 apg on freaking 38% shooting and 21% shooting from the 3.

So Dirk's stats take a huge plummet in the playoffs and they choke a series away with homecourt advantage, but he still was the deserved mvp.........but Kobe leads his team to a 7 game series against the better Suns team and they lose despite him averaging 28 ppg 6.3 rpg 5.1 apg on nearly 50% shooting, and he ruins his case as an Mvp?

Dude, I feel you, everything you say is on point, but really you could have saved all of this. Putting Dirk in the same sentence with Kobe is laughable from the jump.

[chopchop20]

Yes in a team with 2 dominant big men - Kobe is just riding Shaq's and Gasol's coattails. :hammerhead:

What were Parrish and McHale?

[Fatal9]

Kobe is not better than Bird, he has never played at the level Bird did in his prime. LOL @ the idiot who said "is Bird really a better passer than Kobe?". Kobe is my favorite current player but stop overrating the fck out of this guy. From start to finish, this is one of the crappiest topics I've had to read (Kobe>Bird, Kobe being better passer than Bird, Dantley being better offensive player than Bird), it really is shocking Laker fans subject themselves to such willful ignorance. Topic has been nothing but Laker fans trying to bring down a player who is better than both of their heroes (Kobe and Magic).

[OldSchoolBBall]

Kobe's 2006 season HAS to rank among the greatest ever (and very similar to Chamberlain's 62-63 season.) When ONE player is responsible for the vast majority of a team's wins. Of course, both Kobe and Wilt proved that with quality supporting casts, they could win championships...something that Nash and Nowitzki obviously have not been able to do.

It's not even one of the 20 best individual seasons ever from an impact standpoint. Bird alone has like 3-4 better ones.

[jlauber]

It's not even one of the 20 best individual seasons ever from an impact standpoint. Bird alone has like 3-4 better ones.

Sure.

[jlauber]

Kobe is not better than Bird, he has never played at the level Bird did in his prime. LOL @ the idiot who said "is Bird really a better passer than Kobe?". Kobe is my favorite current player but stop overrating the fck out of this guy. From start to finish, this is one of the crappiest topics I've had to read (Kobe>Bird, Kobe being better passer than Bird, Dantley being better offensive player than Bird), it really is shocking Laker fans subject themselves to such willful ignorance. Topic has been nothing but Laker fans trying to bring down a player who is better than both of their heroes (Kobe and Magic).

KObe better than Bird. IMHO, very close. I have Kobe at #8, and Bird at #10.
I brought Dantley's offense into the topic because another poster was claiming that Bird was an all-time top-3 offensive player.

In terms of OFFENSE (not passing, rebounding, or defense), you PROVE to me that Bird was a greater player than Dantley. And, don't give me the "range" crap. Using that argument, and Shaq suddenly becomes one of the worst offensive players of all-time...and he was FAR more DOMINANT than Bird offensively.

[AirJordan&Magic]

Kobe is not better than Bird, he has never played at the level Bird did in his prime. LOL @ the idiot who said "is Bird really a better passer than Kobe?". Kobe is my favorite current player but stop overrating the fck out of this guy. From start to finish, this is one of the crappiest topics I've had to read (Kobe>Bird, Kobe being better passer than Bird, Dantley being better offensive player than Bird), it really is shocking Laker fans subject themselves to such willful ignorance. Topic has been nothing but Laker fans trying to bring down a player who is better than both of their heroes (Kobe and Magic).

Though I can agree with this and I pretty much agree with alot you say, I still do not think Bird is that much better than Kobe.

If you want to argue prime/peak, I agree with you......Bird's prime/peak seasons are EASILY greater than Kobe's.

But in terms of basketball skills/ abilities, there isn't much of a gap between the two, imo.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Sure.

Which of these seasons is Kobe's 2006 better than:

Jordan - '87-'93, '96 (8 seasons)
Wilt - '61-'68 (8 seasons)
KAJ - '72-'79 (8 seasons)
Shaq - '00-'02 (3 seasons)
Bird - '84-'87 (4 seasons)
Magic - '87-'90 (4 seasons)
Hakeem - '93-'95 (3 seasons)
Duncan - '02-'04 (3 seasons)
Lebron - '09-'10 (2 seasons)

That's 43 single seasons right there. So you need to show me how Kobe's 2006 is better than over HALF of those before you have the right to get sarcastic with me. Good luck. There are others I'm sure I missed as well.

[jlauber]

Which of these seasons is Kobe's 2006 better than:

Jordan - '87-'93, '96 (8 seasons)
Wilt - '61-'68 (8 seasons)
KAJ - '72-'79 (8 seasons)
Shaq - '00-'02 (3 seasons)
Bird - '84-'87 (4 seasons)
Magic - '87-'90 (4 seasons)
Hakeem - '93-'95 (3 seasons)
Duncan - '02-'04 (3 seasons)
Lebron - '09-'10 (2 seasons)

That's 43 single seasons right there. So you need to show me how Kobe's 2006 is better than over HALF of those before you have the right to get sarcastic with me. Good luck. There are others I'm sure I missed as well.

Let's see. 35.4 ppg on .450 shooting in a league that averaged 97 ppg and shot .454 on a team that was among the worst ever assembled. Arguably the second greatest SCORING season in NBA HISTORY.

You can throw up all the "mini' stats you want. Kobe had one of the most UNSTOPPABLE offensive seasons in NBA history. ONE man carrying a cast of clowns...and still going 45-37. Using MJ's 86-87 season, as an example...37.1 ppg on .482 shooting in a league that averaged 110 ppg, and shot .480, on a team that went 40-42.

Yes, you can find more efficient seasons...my god, Wilt just OBLITERATES that category...especially against LEAGUE AVERAGE...BUT, Kobe was a one-man wrecking crew that year.

[jlauber]

Ok, we have beaten the Bird-Kobe and Bird-Magic comparisons to death. I'll concede it is close between Kobe and Bird. Definitely not with Magic, though.

How about the other's...

Russell, MJ, Wilt, Kareem, Duncan, Shaq, and Olajuwon...

I'm going to bed...

[OldSchoolBBall]

Let's see. 35.4 ppg on .450 shooting in a league that averaged 97 ppg and shot .454 on a team that was among the worst ever assembled. Arguably the second greatest SCORING season in NBA HISTORY.

You can throw up all the "mini' stats you want. Kobe had one of the most UNSTOPPABLE offensive seasons in NBA history. ONE man carrying a cast of clowns...and still going 45-37. Using MJ's 86-87 season, as an example...37.1 ppg on .482 shooting in a league that averaged 110 ppg, and shot .480, on a team that went 40-42.

Yes, you can find more efficient seasons...my god, Wilt just OBLITERATES that category...especially against LEAGUE AVERAGE...BUT, Kobe was a one-man wrecking crew that year.

Again, please tell me which HALF of the seasons I noted Kobe's 2006 is better than, so we can all laugh at you.

This is about being a great SEASON, not a great SCORING season. If you want to say that Kobe's 2006 was one of the greatest SCORING seasons in history, at least that's more defensible. But as an overall season from an impact standpoint, it's not even top 20. Heck, maybe not even top 30.

[chopchop20]

Again, please tell me which HALF of the seasons I noted Kobe's 2006 is better than, so we can all laugh at you.

This is about being a great SEASON, not a great SCORING season. If you want to say that Kobe's 2006 was one of the greatest SCORING seasons in history, at least that's more defensible. But as an overall season from an impact standpoint, it's not even top 20. Heck, maybe not even top 30.

You do realize that Bird is a 24.3 PPG score and Kobe is 25.3 (including his 1st 3 years when he didn't get the opportunity to score that often)

I mean c'mon... enough with the revisionist history painting Bird out to be MJ

[chains5000]

You do realize that Bird is a 24.3 PPG score and Kobe is 25.3 (including his 1st 3 years when he didn't get the opportunity to score that often)

I mean c'mon... enough with the revisionist history painting Bird out to be MJ
You shouldn't compare career numbers yet.

[chopchop20]

Kobe is not better than Bird, he has never played at the level Bird did in his prime. LOL @ the idiot who said "is Bird really a better passer than Kobe?". Kobe is my favorite current player but stop overrating the fck out of this guy. From start to finish, this is one of the crappiest topics I've had to read (Kobe>Bird, Kobe being better passer than Bird, Dantley being better offensive player than Bird), it really is shocking Laker fans subject themselves to such willful ignorance. Topic has been nothing but Laker fans trying to bring down a player who is better than both of their heroes (Kobe and Magic).


Dude, you're just ranting and spewing opinion... Kobe's did things on the court that Bird never dreamed about with 2 more rings. Don't make this out to be MJ vs Adam Morrison

[chopchop20]

You shouldn't compare career numbers yet.

I'm with you, just saying keep it 100%. No problems with people saying Bird is better, but don't act like Kobe is chopped liver. #24 has the pedigree to stack up with the best of the best to ever play this game

[OldSchoolBBall]

You do realize that Bird is a 24.3 PPG score and Kobe is 25.3 (including his 1st 3 years when he didn't get the opportunity to score that often)

I mean c'mon... enough with the revisionist history painting Bird out to be MJ

Again, who's talking about scoring? I'm talking about who had better SEASONS than Kobe's 2006. And there's absolutely no question that Bird's '84-'87 seasons were better than Kobe's 2006 from both a statistical and impact standpoint.

[chopchop20]

Again, who's talking about scoring? I'm talking about who had better SEASONS than Kobe's 2006. And there's absolutely no question that Bird's '84-'87 seasons were better than Kobe's 2006 from both a statistical and impact standpoint.

I already made that distinction -- the fact that Bird was playing on Championship teams at the time, and Kobe was not. No argument there. 1986 Celts are considered to be one of the best teams of the modern era.

Still though, it's hard to top 35.4 -- I mean, that's something that's only been matched once in how many years -- I'm guessing at least 30? No matter how you feel about Kobe, that's a rare achievement

[OldSchoolBBall]

I already made that distinction -- the fact that Bird was playing on Championship teams at the time, and Kobe was not. No argument there. 1986 Celts are considered to be one of the best teams of the modern era.

Still though, it's hard to top 35.4 -- I mean, that's something that's only been matched once in how many years -- I'm guessing at least 30? No matter how you feel about Kobe, that's a rare achievement

You wouldnt take 29/9/7/52% FG/60% TS on your team before you'd take 35/5/4/45% FG/56% TS? I know I would...

[chopchop20]

You wouldnt take 29/9/7/52% FG/60% TS on your team before you'd take 35/5/4/45% FG/56% TS? I know I would...

Always take the winner -- kudos to Bird. At the same time, 35.4 is a very rare, and uncommon accomplishment -- doesn't happen very often

[iamgine]

True, Bird has an edge in regular season MVP awards, but clearly Kobe was shafted in probably as many as three years in that regard.

LOL ok lets just make stuff up. Bird was shafted probably 7 times. Hey, that would make his total MVPs to 10. Better than Jordan apparently.

But wait, Kobe should have 10 titles already as the main man if he'd played with Gasol/Artest/Bynum since the beginning of his career. He was shafted of the rings so many times.

[32jazz]

I understand the Bird "groupies" if you wanna call them that. He was a transcendent player in terms of his impact on the NBA. Him, Magic, and MJ are head and shoulders above players today in that regards.

But I think Larry Bird would tell you himself that Kobe is the better player. And there's no disrespect in that -- a lot of people who don't like Kobe fail to see what this guy has done/accomplished in this league. It's pretty darn impressive

That's why I avoid these silly arguments. MOST of these guys have NEVER really seen Bird play but are about to have a friggin stroke if someone suggests a contemporary player is better.:rolleyes:

You cannot have a rational discussion with these knuckleheads when it comes to the Golden era(80's/90's) players. Just as it is in baseball & idiots who have NEVER seen Ted Williams ,DiMaggio,Cobb,etc,.......play ,but they would 'stroke out' if someone suggests that Albert Pujols/Bonds is better than them all.

Pujols can never win these debates since he wasn't a part of Baseball's racist(no Blacks/Hispanics/Asians) Golden Era(1920-60). I thought with the death of most of those old sportwriters we would get beyond those guys , BUT young guys for some reason(nostalgia/brainwashing:confusedshrug: ) have taken up the cause for the GREATNESS of players they have NEVER seen.

I agree with you that these players from the GOLDEN ERAs(MLB & NBA) are unassailable & even get BETTER as time passes. Debating this topic with these guys is hopeless. Just enjoy today's game/players & let them carry on irrelevant/washed up guys from the past.

[MasterDurant24]

Kobe was the best player in the league in the year's that Nash and Nowitzki won the award. Even Shaq was robbed a few times (Iverson beating him was a complete disgrace BTW.) So, while MVPs should have merit, they are not always an accurate measurement.
MVP stands for Most Valuable Player, not best player.

[MasterDurant24]

Let's see. 35.4 ppg on .450 shooting in a league that averaged 97 ppg and shot .454 on a team that was among the worst ever assembled. Arguably the second greatest SCORING season in NBA HISTORY.

You can throw up all the "mini' stats you want. Kobe had one of the most UNSTOPPABLE offensive seasons in NBA history. ONE man carrying a cast of clowns...and still going 45-37. Using MJ's 86-87 season, as an example...37.1 ppg on .482 shooting in a league that averaged 110 ppg, and shot .480, on a team that went 40-42.

Yes, you can find more efficient seasons...my god, Wilt just OBLITERATES that category...especially against LEAGUE AVERAGE...BUT, Kobe was a one-man wrecking crew that year.
The Cavs might have been a little better than the Lakers, but LeBron took them to 2 straight 60-win seasons and a Finals appearence. He wasn't even 25. Just saying.

Why does leauge average matter? That just means more people have started shooting more outside shots, which are less likely to go in. Yes, Kobe's season was one of the greatest offensive seasons in NBA history, but leauge average doesn't factor in it. But not better than these:

Tiny Archibald. 1972-1973. 34 PPG, 11.4 APG, 48.8% FG

Elgin Baylor. 1961-62. 38.3 PPG, 18.6 RPG, 4.6 APG. 43% FG

Larry Bird. 84-85. 28.7 points, 10.5 rebounds, 6.6 assists, 1.6 steals, and 1.2 blocks, 52.2% from the field

Shaq. 99-00. 29.7 PPG, 13.6 RPG, 3.8 APG, 57.4% FG

MJ. 87-88. 35 points, 5.9 APG, 53.5%

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. 70-71. 31.7 PPG, 16 RPG, 57.7% FG

Wilt Chamberlain. Pretty much every damn season in his prime.

Also assists are part of offense. For every assist you contribute, you give your team two points. If you counted all that up, Magic, LeBron and Oscar Robertson would be on this list as well.

[jlauber]

Again, please tell me which HALF of the seasons I noted Kobe's 2006 is better than, so we can all laugh at you.

This is about being a great SEASON, not a great SCORING season. If you want to say that Kobe's 2006 was one of the greatest SCORING seasons in history, at least that's more defensible. But as an overall season from an impact standpoint, it's not even top 20. Heck, maybe not even top 30.

In terms of scoring...probably the 2nd or 3rd greatest season in NBA HISTORY (only Wilt's 62 and 63 seasons were better...and I have would have to do the math on Chamberlain's '63 season.) And, take a look at his pathetic roster. Essentially, Kobe was facing defenses designed to stop him, with little regard for his teammates (same with Wilt in '63..and for almost half of his career.) This is what Jordan also faced in his first couple of seasons, as well. It's one thing to shoot 50% with three other HOFers on your roster...it is quite another to shoot 45% with Gilligan, the Skipper, and the millionaire's wife.

Is that season one of the greatest of all-time in terms of total production? Well, 45 wins with a roster of players that were probably riding the bench in high school is pretty damn impressive. And 35 ppg against constant double teams and rotating defenses designed to stop him at every turn was just incredible. Factor in that the league was only scoring 97 ppg...and it is simply astounding.

[J_Rock3ts]

Sure. 35 ppg in a league that averaged 97, on a team of clowns that Kobe took to a 45-37 record. Nash and Nowitzki would have been lucky to get 20 wins on that team.

I lost you here. You claim Kobe should have won due to the fact that he scored a ton of points, and led a ragtag team to 45 wins. Funny, considering the last page where you say iverson winning the MVP was a "disgrace" while averaging 31 points and leading an even WORSE team to an NBA Finals appearance. I don't get this logic...

[jlauber]

I lost you here. You claim Kobe should have won due to the fact that he scored a ton of points, and led a ragtag team to 45 wins. Funny, considering the last page where you say iverson winning the MVP was a "disgrace" while averaging 31 points and leading an even WORSE team to an NBA Finals appearance. I don't get this logic...

That is a good point. Still, Iverson had Motumbo and Kukoc (for 48 games anyway.) Furthermore, those Laker teams from 00-02 were NOT loaded. They were basically Shaq, Kobe, and a bunch of role players. I remember when they acquired Glen Rice. I thought he would be a perfect fit. His career shooting numbers were impressive coming in, too. Then I watched him play. The man literally could not dribble the ball...at all. I always held my breath anytime he would put the ball on the floor (it was a guaranteed turnover.) And, for whatever reason, he lost his shooting touch while in LA.

One more thing about these MVP awards...in total context, they mean little. Why? Iverson won the MVP in '01. Do you honestly think ANY GM would have taken Iverson over Shaq if they would have had the opportunity? Same with Nash and Nowitzki in their MVP years. Kobe was the consensus best player in the NBA in those years. The MVP award has rewarded hard work on generally winning teams...guys Phil Rizzuto and Zoilo Versalles...but those players were probably not even top-20 players when they played.

[jlauber]

Back to OP...

Once again, we seem to exhausted the Bird/Kobe and Bird/Magic debates. IMHO, Bird has a small case as better than Kobe. Still, Kobe holds a 5-3 edge in rings and a 7-5 edge in Finals. And in terms of post-season scoring...no contest. And once again, Bird's FG% was actually not much better than Kobe's when you factor in league average (and the fact that Kobe shot far more 3pters.) And, barring injury, by the time Kobe hangs it up, he will probably be somewhere in the top-5.

I don't see Bird having a case at all over Magic. Bird may have been a slightly better player in the first half of the 80's, but from that point on, thru the early 90's, Magic pulled away. And in terms of post-season play, Magic was considerably better. In fact, Bird was a very inefficient scorer in the post-season, particularly in the Finals, while Magic was 50% in both. Over the course of their CAREERS, Magic was better.

But how about Bird/Olajuwon? Bird/Duncan? Bird/Shaq? Bird/Kareem? Bird/Wilt? Bird/MJ? And Bird/Russell?

Your thoughts?

[MasterDurant24]

In terms of scoring...probably the 2nd or 3rd greatest season in NBA HISTORY (only Wilt's 62 and 63 seasons were better...and I have would have to do the math on Chamberlain's '63 season.) And, take a look at his pathetic roster. Essentially, Kobe was facing defenses designed to stop him, with little regard for his teammates (same with Wilt in '63..and for almost half of his career.) This is what Jordan also faced in his first couple of seasons, as well. It's one thing to shoot 50% with three other HOFers on your roster...it is quite another to shoot 45% with Gilligan, the Skipper, and the millionaire's wife.

Is that season one of the greatest of all-time in terms of total production? Well, 45 wins with a roster of players that were probably riding the bench in high school is pretty damn impressive. And 35 ppg against constant double teams and rotating defenses designed to stop him at every turn was just incredible. Factor in that the league was only scoring 97 ppg...and it is simply astounding.

Oscar Robertson's triple-double season? Elgin Baylor's 38 points per game and 16 rebounds per game season? LeBron's 28 points, 7 rebounds, and 7 assists? Wilt's seasons up until the 70s? Barkley's MVP year? Jordan of 87-88 and 90-91? Kareem in 70-71? Shaq in 99-2000? Kobe's season was more productive than those? And no NBA player rides the bench in high school, just to let you know.

[jlauber]

Oscar Robertson's triple-double season? Elgin Baylor's 38 points per game and 16 rebounds per game season? LeBron's 28 points, 7 rebounds, and 7 assists? Wilt's seasons up until the 70s? Barkley's MVP year? Jordan of 87-88 and 90-91? Kareem in 70-71? Shaq in 99-2000? Kobe's season was more productive than those? And no NBA player rides the bench in high school, just to let you know.

OK. I give up.

Let's move on to OP.

Incidently, Baylor's 38 ppg season was part-time BTW.

[OldSchoolBBall]

In terms of scoring...probably the 2nd or 3rd greatest season in NBA HISTORY (only Wilt's 62 and 63 seasons were better...and I have would have to do the math on Chamberlain's '63 season.)

Jordan's 35 ppg/54% FG/61% TS season is INARGUABLY a better scoring season than Kobe's 2006. There's literally no one with a brain that would take 35 ppg/45% FG/56% TS over 35 ppg/54% FG/61% TS.

Jordan's 37.1 ppg season is arguably better as well (as an overall season, it's better than Kobe's 2006 because of MJ's ridiculous defensive numbers, but I'm talking strictly scoring here). MJ averaged 40+ ppg/53% FG in the Chicago wins that year and "only" 34 ppg/44% in the losses -- if MJ didn't score big, that team had no chance of winning; it was incredibly offensively anemic, especially compared to the average team in the league at that time. Kobe's 2006 exhibits a similar spread (higher numbers in the wins), but not as pronounced (Kobe increases his average by 1.2 ppg/2% FG in the wins vs. MJ's 3 ppg/5% FG).

[AirJordan23]

There's literally no one with a brain that would take 35 ppg/46% FG/56% TS over 35 ppg/54% FG/61% TS.


45% to be exact. :D

[ShaqAttack3234]

That is a good point. Still, Iverson had Motumbo and Kukoc (for 48 games anyway.) Furthermore, those Laker teams from 00-02 were NOT loaded. They were basically Shaq, Kobe, and a bunch of role players. I remember when they acquired Glen Rice. I thought he would be a perfect fit. His career shooting numbers were impressive coming in, too. Then I watched him play. The man literally could not dribble the ball...at all. I always held my breath anytime he would put the ball on the floor (it was a guaranteed turnover.) And, for whatever reason, he lost his shooting touch while in LA.

One more thing about these MVP awards...in total context, they mean little. Why? Iverson won the MVP in '01. Do you honestly think ANY GM would have taken Iverson over Shaq if they would have had the opportunity? Same with Nash and Nowitzki in their MVP years. Kobe was the consensus best player in the NBA in those years. The MVP award has rewarded hard work on generally winning teams...guys Phil Rizzuto and Zoilo Versalles...but those players were probably not even top-20 players when they played.

Yep, in 2006 when Kobe averaged 35, there wasn't a force like 2001 Shaq in the league.

I also agree with you about Iverson's 2001 MVP. Great year, but a big key to the Sixers success was that they had great defenders and rebounders, guys who didn't need a lot of shots to be effective. Their defense and rebounding could keep Philly in the game when Iverson was cold and that allowed his hot streaks to win them games. That defensive team also allowed him to do what he did best defensively, gamble and play the passing lanes for steals.

In 2001, Shaq also led LA to an 11-3 record without Kobe and Shaq was inarguably better at both ends than Iverson. Scored 2 fewer ppg, but he took over 6 more shots per game. Shaq as a center, finished less than 1 assist per game behind Iverson as well, he was also less turnover prone and had to be doubled more while killing Iverson in efficiency and wrecking other teams frontlines, particularly by getting them into foul trouble. Shaq amazingly averaged more than 13 FTA per game that year.

Defensively? I won't even comment on prime Shaq's defensive impact vs prime Iverson's

[Big#50]

I know that this has probably been discussed before, but the more I research the topic, the less I am impressed.

Where does Larry Bird's CAREER rank all-time?

Here is MY Top-10 list:

1. Russell
2. MJ
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Kareem
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Olajuwon
10. Bird

I want to read LEGITIMATE arguments on how Bird is better the first nine. Granted, I could probably swap Olajuwon and Bird, but I really feel that Hakeem was a more dominant player, particularly in the post-season.

Remember, this is based on CAREER. For example...how can Bird be ranked over Kobe? Kobe has more rings, Finals, more statistical achievements, and considerably higher scoring post-seasons. And keep in mind that Bird's FG% came in an era of .480 and .490 league-wide averages. And for all the hype that Bird's three-point shooting generated...take a closer look at his, and Kobe's post-season 3 pt shooting. Bird AVERAGED ONE 3pt FGM in every TWO playoff games...and shot .321 in the process.

True, Bird has an edge in regular season MVP awards, but clearly Kobe was shafted in probably as many as three years in that regard.

Anyway...I want LEGITIMATE arguments. I won't bother responding to idiotic posts.

I will respond later on...
KAJ/Jordan
Duncan
Shaq
Magic
Kobe
Bird
Hakeem
Wilt
Russell
Is this a thread about Bird or Kobe?

[godofgods]

Bird is #4 after Jordan, Kareem and Russell.

[jlauber]

Bird is #4 after Jordan, Kareem and Russell.

Over Magic? Over Shaq? Over Duncan? And please explain where he beats out Wilt?

[jlauber]

Hell, Wilt had post-seasons and Finals, in which his team LOST, in which he was FAR more DOMINANT than Bird was, in Bird's BEST Finals (of which he only had two BTW.)

And, aside from 3pt shooting, of which Bird's post-season impact was a joke...Wilt crushes Bird in every area. EVERY area. Even FTs. My god, Wilt played one more season than Bird...and MADE 2000 more FTs.

And Wilt's efficiency is MUCH more staggering...ESPECIALLY if you factor in league average. Not only that, but Chamberlain blows him away in the post-season in that regard.

Scoring? Truly laughable. Chamberlain was the greatest scorer, BY MILE, in NBA HISTORY (sorry MJ.) Granted, MJ edges him in the post-season...but in Wilt's defense, he faced a HOF center in 70% of his post-season games. AND, as Psileas pointed out...Wilt's career was basically broken up into two styles. His "scoring" years, from '60-'66, and his "team" years from '67-'73. I'll even carry it one step further...his "post-injury" seasons (after '69) Why is that important? He played in 160 post-season games. However, only 52 came in his "scoring" seasons, and on horrible teams. His last 108 games occured in the "post-scoring" seasons. In his "scoring" post-seasons (and he missed ONE year, because of crappy teammates BTW...his 62-63 season...in which he averaged 45 ppg) he averaged 33 ppg on about .510 shooting, and in a league that averaged anywhere from .410-.441.

Rebounding? Chamberlain's WORST games probably blow past many of Bird's BEST. And in the post-season, Chamberlain was simply, THE greatest ever. Not only that, but Chamberlain CRUSHED his opposing centers in rebounding, whether regular season, and even worse in the post-season.

Passing? Bird was a great passer, but Wilt was the greatest passing "big man" in NBA history. He led the league one year, and was third in another.

FG%. Chamberlain won NINE FG% titles. Bird? ZERO. Chamberlain's top-2 seasons are SO FAR ahead of everyone else, that they can engrave his marks in the Record Book...they will NEVER be broken.

How about in the Finals? My god, Wilt, on one leg, put up a 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, .625 series against HOF Reed and a 60-22 Knick team. In the '64 Finals, Chamberlain had a 29 ppg, 27 rpg, .550 series against RUSSELL.

Furthermore...Chamberlain's 66-67 season, BOTH regular season, and then again in the post-season, has been widely acknowledged as the greatest in NBA history. Wilt had more MVP's (and probably should have won several more.) He would certainly have had as many Finals MVPs if they would have had the award in '67. AND, Wilt was winning Finals MVPs at age 35, when Bird was retiring. In Wilt's final post-season, in '73, and at age 36, he averaged 22.5 rpg.

Now, if someone wants to argue that Bird was a better player than Wilt...I would be more than happy to discuss it.

[OldSchoolBBall]

HGranted, MJ edges him in the post-season..

No, MJ doesn't "edge" Wilt in the postseason in terms of scoring, he OBLITERATES him. "Edging" someone out is like 33 ppg vs. 31 ppg. Not MJ's 33.4 ppg career playoff scoring average vs. Wilt's 22.5 ppg average. That's a 35+% difference.

Just saying.

[jlauber]

No, MJ doesn't "edge" Wilt in the postseason in terms of scoring, he OBLITERATES him. "Edging" someone out is like 33 ppg vs. 31 ppg. Not MJ's 33.4 ppg career playoff scoring average vs. Wilt's 22.5 ppg average. That's a 35+% difference.

Just saying.

You obviously didn't read my entire post. Wilt averaged 33 ppg in his 52 "scoring seasons" post-season games (and he missed the playoffs in his hitoric 62-63 season)...on about .510 shooting. He played 108 other post-season games, after he cut back his scoring (and then scored even less after his knee injury in '69.) On top of that, he faced a HOF center in 112 of his 160 post-season games. IMHO, that was the equivalent of MJ facing the Pistons in the late 80's in the post-season.

[OldSchoolBBall]

You obviously didn't read my entire post. Wilt averaged 33 ppg in his 52 "scoring seasons" post-season games (and he missed the playoffs in his hitoric 62-63 season)...on about .510 shooting. He played 108 other post-season games, after he cut back his scoring (and then scored even less after his knee injury in '69.) On top of that, he faced a HOF center in 112 of his 160 post-season games. IMHO, that was the equivalent of MJ facing the Pistons in the late 80's in the post-season.

WHat you fail to realize is that there's a reason Wilt had to "scale back" his scoring in order for his teams to be successful. It's admirable that he had the humility to do so, but he doesn't get extra credit for doing so to where we can look at 33 vs. 22 ppg as anything other than an enormous gap. It's not "edging" Wilt -- Jordan was a far superior playoff scorer over the course of their careers. Even in peak years, MJ's better (Wilt topped out at 34-36 ppg, MJ at 35-37 ppg, but 36 ppg in 1963 is not the same as 36 ppg in 1990).

[DC Zephyrs]

Bird didn't have the longevity of most other greats, but if you place a lot of value in peak play, Bird is a top 5 player of all time.

[godofgods]

Over Magic? Over Shaq? Over Duncan? And please explain where he beats out Wilt?

Definitely over the overrated Magic who rode Jabbar's coattails. **** that AIDS infested PG Faker. He's not even better than Steve Nash. Plus, the championships that Magic won after Stern took over, those were given to the Fakers as Stern hates the Celtics for bitchslapping his NYK year in and year out.

Definitely over someone who cannot shoot FT and was 'dominant' only because Stern prohibited the refs calling offensive foul on him.

Duncan has an argument, I have him fifth, or can be a tie. But Duncan had the support of 2nd greatest SG of all time in Manu Ginobili. Kevin McHale is not the 2nd greatest PF of all time.

Definitely over Wilt because Bird never played with the Fakers and wasn't a selfish ballhog.

If you disagree with me, you are wrong, gay and stupid.

/thread.

[raptorfan_dr07]

Kobe is not better than Bird, he has never played at the level Bird did in his prime. LOL @ the idiot who said "is Bird really a better passer than Kobe?". Kobe is my favorite current player but stop overrating the fck out of this guy. From start to finish, this is one of the crappiest topics I've had to read (Kobe>Bird, Kobe being better passer than Bird, Dantley being better offensive player than Bird), it really is shocking Laker fans subject themselves to such willful ignorance. Topic has been nothing but Laker fans trying to bring down a player who is better than both of their heroes (Kobe and Magic).

Damn Fatal, this is by far the most BEAUTIFUL post I've ever seen you make here on insidehoops. :cheers: Personally I believe Bird was better than Magic, but I don't have a problem with anyone who wants to argue otherwise.


Putting Dirk in the same sentence with Kobe is laughable from the jump.

Just like putting Kobe in the same sentence with Bird is laughable from the jump. Bird was BY FAR the SUPERIOR player. It isn't even close. The reasons why have been fully illustrated throughout this topic by other posters with far more basketball knowledge than you could ever hope to have.

[jlauber]

Definitely over the overrated Magic who rode Jabbar's coattails. **** that AIDS infested PG Faker. He's not even better than Steve Nash. Plus, the championships that Magic won after Stern took over, those were given to the Fakers as Stern hates the Celtics for bitchslapping his NYK year in and year out.

Definitely over someone who cannot shoot FT and was 'dominant' only because Stern prohibited the refs calling offensive foul on him.

Duncan has an argument, I have him fifth, or can be a tie. But Duncan had the support of 2nd greatest SG of all time in Manu Ginobili. Kevin McHale is not the 2nd greatest PF of all time.

Definitely over Wilt because Bird never played with the Fakers and wasn't a selfish ballhog.

If you disagree with me, you are wrong, gay and stupid.

/thread.

I shouldn't even bother to respond...

BUT, in the words of another poster on another topic...

"That is the worst post I've ever seen on ISH, or quite possibly the worst post I've ever seen even on the internet period."

[necya]

i have more than 1500 games from 80 to 98.
you can't discuss that MJ is the GOAT. after, you can discuss between Magic and Bird for the 2nd place (even if it would be ridiculous) but the 3 best guys who have played basketball on this earth are MJ, Bird and Magic.
then you can add abdul-jabbar and hakeem for the best centers, cause they need to be mentionned like Malone barkley and TD at PF but the 3 top players are on another planet.

i don't know if those guys who use to put numbers to argue, know how they are ridiculous like those ones how rates russel and wilt above as if they had watched all their games in an era who can't match the 80's (the best) or the 90's.

Bird has the best IQ basketball ever and he is the most (with MJ) incredible player i have ever seen playing basketball.

[Rocker09]

IMO he's at #4 behind MJ, Kareem, and Magic

[Psileas]

i have more than 1500 games from 80 to 98.
you can't discuss that MJ is the GOAT. after, you can discuss between Magic and Bird for the 2nd place (even if it would be ridiculous) but the 3 best guys who have played basketball on this earth are MJ, Bird and Magic.
then you can add abdul-jabbar and hakeem for the best centers, cause they need to be mentionned like Malone barkley and TD at PF but the 3 top players are on another planet.

i don't know if those guys who use to put numbers to argue, know how they are ridiculous like those ones how rates russel and wilt above as if they had watched all their games in an era who can't match the 80's (the best) or the 90's.

Bird has the best IQ basketball ever and he is the most (with MJ) incredible player i have ever seen playing basketball.

The early to mid 80's consisted largely of players who played in the late 70's, widely considered the worst era of NBA basketball since the mid 50's and certainly below the 60's, which are supposedly not comparable to the 80's or 90's. A part of the 90's also consisted of talented players who, however, either failed to become as great as they were supposed to become (Coleman, Penny, Sprewell, Hill, Kemp, L.Johnson-I won't even mention complete flops, like Miner) or were blamed for worsening the quality of the NBA (Iverson, Marbury, young Kobe-the version with millions of haters). Even in the mid-90's, Jordan's early retirement was enough to bring interest down by a lot, and the mid 90's were probably better than the late 90's.
So, while both eras were great, it's a bit subjective to put the 80's-90's in a sacred level and hypothesize that having watched them enough live or on video, without having watched the 60's-70's-2000's is enough to qualify the top 3-5 GOAt players.

[jlauber]

Well, I have been fortunate enough to have watched every GREAT player who has played since the early 60's. Unfortunately, there is so little footage available of those that played in the 60's. We do have considerably more available from the 70's...which clearly depicts an "athletic" period in the NBA. BUT, keep in mind that those players who "crossed over" from the 60's, continued to play well. Rick Barry led the NBA in scoring in 66-67, with 35.6 ppg. And he not only led the Warriors to a shocking title in 74-75, he averaged 30.2 ppg that season. Billy Cunningham, Chet Walker, and John Havlicek had some truly outstanding seasons in both decades.

Of course, "The Bridge", Kareem, is the best example of just how under-rated the greats of the 60's are in these discussions. Kareem, in his statistically peak seasons, 70-71 thru 72-73, while still playing well, struggled mightily in terms of shooting against both Nate Thurmond and Chamberlain...both of whom were well past their primes. In his three post-seasons against Thurmond, and two against Wilt, he NEVER shot 50%, and in fact, even struggled to shoot much over 40% against them at times. Chamberlain consistently outrebounded him, as well. Furthermore, in the 70-71 WCF's, Wilt matched Kareem in every statistical category...all while being one year removed from major knee surgery, and 11 years older. And, IMHO, that was Kareem's second greatest season (some might argue 76-77...but keep in mind, Wilt and Nate were no longer in the league by then.) And those that watched the 71-72 WCF's, including many of the media who recorded it, would attest that Wilt outplayed Kareem, despite being heavily outscored. I was fortunate enough to have watched every game...and while Kareem was putting up his points, he was either bricking many more than he made, or was watching Chamberlain knock about five of his shots alone, per game, all over the court. And, in Wilt's final season in the NBA, in 72-73 he routinly shut Kareem down (he even outscored him one game, despite Kareem taking 27 shots to his 14.) In that last season, Wilt outshot Kareem from the floor, H2H, .637 to .450. Finally, in their one meeting before Chamberlain's devastating knee injury in 1969, Wilt thoroughly dominated Kareem.

Granted, neither met the other in their primes (Wilt in the mid-60's...say from about '65 thru '68...his last scoring seasons to his dominate team play.) Kareem was probably not quite in his physical prime when they played, either, although his greatest statistical seasons were in the early 70's. In any case, there is no one who watched both play against each other, that would say that Kareem was better than Wilt. Let me add, though, that even I would say that Wilt, at that time, was not better than Kareem, either. Unfortunately, we never witnessed Wilt, in his prime, battle Kareem. We do know that Chamberlain had a few games in the mid-60's when he crushed Thurmond, though (in one, he outscored him 45-13, and in another he put up a 38-31 game.) In the 66-67 WCF's Chamberlain buried Thurmond, particularly in terms of FG%, (.560 to .343), all while outscoring, outrebounding, and outassisting him.)

Obviously, we will never know how a PRIME Wilt would have fared against a PRIME Kareem, but, we do know that Kareem was certainly not a better player than Chamberlain in their 28 H2H games. Why is that important? Because, as I have said many times by now, Kareem went on to dominate the decade of the 70's. Clearly, despite a lack of motivation, and basically under-achieving in that decade, Kareem was still head-and-shoulders above the rest of the league. Not only that, but Kareem would continue to be an offensive force in the 80's (despite a steady decline in his physical skills.) Perhaps his most impressive feat (and once again thanks to Fatal9 on this), was that in three straight games, at age 38, Kareem hung games of 35, 42, and 46 on a rising Olajuwon in the 85-86 season.

Interestingly enough, Olajuwon carried his Rockets into the Finals in that 85-86 season, and against Bird's Celtics, who were in their best season. Bird led Boston to a 4-2 series win and won the Finals MVP, but clearly, Olajuwon played nearly as well. Bird played brilliantly...nearly averaging a triple-double. He scored 24.0 ppg, on .482 shooting, grabbed 9.7 rpg, and dished out 9.5 apg. Hakeem, with a far less talented supporting cast, averaged 24.7 ppg, on .479 shooting, with 11.8 ppg, 1.8 apg, and 3.3 bpg. Once again, that was one of Bird's two best Finals (the other was in 83-84), with his other three Finals being much worse. In any case, Olajuwon was certainly a force in that series.

Olajuwon would go to be generally be regarded as the best center of the 90's. Some would say that he outplayed Shaq in the '95 Finals. Personally, I didn't see it that way, AND, Shaq was not yet in his prime, either. Olajuwon did dominate his other peers in tha decade, including Robinson and Ewing, though. And, of course, we know that Shaq became the best center in the 00's.

All of which leads us back to the 60's. If Thurmond and Wilt (and remember, Russell was generally regarded as the greatest defensive player of his era...and maybe of all-time) could battle a prime Kareem to near draws, and at well past their primes...what does that you about how they would have fared against the likes of Hakeem and later on Shaq? And how would Wilt, Thurmond, and Russell have done, in their PRIMES? And while guys like Cowens, Lanier, Hayes, Reed, and Unseld did not play at Kareem's or Wilt's levels, they were certainly competitive.

Watch footage of the 70's (or even the limited footage of the 60's), and you will be impressed with guys like Maravich, McAdoo, Hawkins, Dr. J, David Thompson, Barry, Gilmore (incidently, Gilmore is the all-time leader in FG%), Scott, Archibald, and of course, Kareem. You will not see much difference then, as to compared to today.

And for those that have not seen this...here are my favorite Wilt clips...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6k539HSbXM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=849_WdqJ8o8&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1R6UI738MI&NR=1

[ShaqAttack3234]

Well, I have been fortunate enough to have watched every GREAT player who has played since the early 60's. Unfortunately, there is so little footage available of those that played in the 60's. We do have considerably more available from the 70's...which clearly depicts an "athletic" period in the NBA. BUT, keep in mind that those players who "crossed over" from the 60's, continued to play well. Rick Barry led the NBA in scoring in 66-67, with 35.6 ppg. And he not only led the Warriors to a shocking title in 74-75, he averaged 30.2 ppg that season. Billy Cunningham, Chet Walker, and John Havlicek had some truly outstanding seasons in both decades.

Of course, "The Bridge", Kareem, is the best example of just how under-rated the greats of the 60's are in these discussions. Kareem, in his statistically peak seasons, 70-71 thru 72-73, while still playing well, struggled mightily in terms of shooting against both Nate Thurmond and Chamberlain...both of whom were well past their primes. In his three post-seasons against Thurmond, and two against Wilt, he NEVER shot 50%, and in fact, even struggled to shoot much over 40% against them at times. Chamberlain consistently outrebounded him, as well. Furthermore, in the 70-71 WCF's, Wilt matched Kareem in every statistical category...all while being one year removed from major knee surgery, and 11 years older. And, IMHO, that was Kareem's second greatest season (some might argue 76-77...but keep in mind, Wilt and Nate were no longer in the league by then.) And those that watched the 71-72 WCF's, including many of the media who recorded it, would attest that Wilt outplayed Kareem, despite being heavily outscored. I was fortunate enough to have watched every game...and while Kareem was putting up his points, he was either bricking many more than he made, or was watching Chamberlain knock about five of his shots alone, per game, all over the court. And, in Wilt's final season in the NBA, in 72-73 he routinly shut Kareem down (he even outscored him one game, despite Kareem taking 27 shots to his 14.) In that last season, Wilt outshot Kareem from the floor, H2H, .637 to .450. Finally, in their one meeting before Chamberlain's devastating knee injury in 1969, Wilt thoroughly dominated Kareem.

Granted, neither met the other in their primes (Wilt in the mid-60's...say from about '65 thru '68...his last scoring seasons to his dominate team play.) Kareem was probably not quite in his physical prime when they played, either, although his greatest statistical seasons were in the early 70's. In any case, there is no one who watched both play against each other, that would say that Kareem was better than Wilt. Let me add, though, that even I would say that Wilt, at that time, was not better than Kareem, either. Unfortunately, we never witnessed Wilt, in his prime, battle Kareem. We do know that Chamberlain had a few games in the mid-60's when he crushed Thurmond, though (in one, he outscored him 45-13, and in another he put up a 38-31 game.) In the 66-67 WCF's Chamberlain buried Thurmond, particularly in terms of FG%, (.560 to .343), all while outscoring, outrebounding, and outassisting him.)

Obviously, we will never know how a PRIME Wilt would have fared against a PRIME Kareem, but, we do know that Kareem was certainly not a better player than Chamberlain in their 28 H2H games. Why is that important? Because, as I have said many times by now, Kareem went on to dominate the decade of the 70's. Clearly, despite a lack of motivation, and basically under-achieving in that decade, Kareem was still head-and-shoulders above the rest of the league. Not only that, but Kareem would continue to be an offensive force in the 80's (despite a steady decline in his physical skills.) Perhaps his most impressive feat (and once again thanks to Fatal9 on this), was that in three straight games, at age 38, Kareem hung games of 35, 42, and 46 on a rising Olajuwon in the 85-86 season.

Interestingly enough, Olajuwon carried his Rockets into the Finals in that 85-86 season, and against Bird's Celtics, who were in their best season. Bird led Boston to a 4-2 series win and won the Finals MVP, but clearly, Olajuwon played nearly as well. Bird played brilliantly...nearly averaging a triple-double. He scored 24.0 ppg, on .482 shooting, grabbed 9.7 rpg, and dished out 9.5 apg. Hakeem, with a far less talented supporting cast, averaged 24.7 ppg, on .479 shooting, with 11.8 ppg, 1.8 apg, and 3.3 bpg. Once again, that was one of Bird's two best Finals (the other was in 83-84), with his other three Finals being much worse. In any case, Olajuwon was certainly a force in that series.

Olajuwon would go to be generally be regarded as the best center of the 90's. Some would say that he outplayed Shaq in the '95 Finals. Personally, I didn't see it that way, AND, Shaq was not yet in his prime, either. Olajuwon did dominate his other peers in tha decade, including Robinson and Ewing, though. And, of course, we know that Shaq became the best center in the 00's.

All of which leads us back to the 60's. If Thurmond and Wilt (and remember, Russell was generally regarded as the greatest defensive player of his era...and maybe of all-time) could battle a prime Kareem to near draws, and at well past their primes...what does that you about how they would have fared against the likes of Hakeem and later on Shaq? And how would Wilt, Thurmond, and Russell have done, in their PRIMES? And while guys like Cowens, Lanier, Hayes, Reed, and Unseld did not play at Kareem's or Wilt's levels, they were certainly competitive.

Watch footage of the 70's (or even the limited footage of the 60's), and you will be impressed with guys like Maravich, McAdoo, Hawkins, Dr. J, David Thompson, Barry, Gilmore (incidently, Gilmore is the all-time leader in FG%), Scott, Archibald, and of course, Kareem. You will not see much difference then, as to compared to today.

And for those that have not seen this...here are my favorite Wilt clips...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6k539HSbXM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=849_WdqJ8o8&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1R6UI738MI&NR=1

One player who I think would have translated well to later eras is John Havlicek.

At 37/38 years in his 16th and final season, Havlicek averaged 16/4/4 on 45% shooting just 2 years before Magic and Bird entered the league. And how much different was the league in 2 years? General competition? Not much different, the ABA players were already in and that was Havlicek well his past his prime as well.

Actually Havlicek is incredibly underrated.

You could easily argue he was the best player on three championship teams.

1968- Averaged 25.9 ppg, 8.6 rpg and 7.5 apg on 45% shooting in the playoffs
1969- Averaged 25.4 ppg, 9.9 rpg and 5.6 apg on 45% shooting in the playoffs
1974- Averaged 27.1 ppg, 6.4 rpg and 6 apg on 48% shooting in the playoffs at 34 years old.

He won 8 total championships, made 4 all-nba first teams and 7 all-nba second teams. They only started the all-nba defensive teams in 1969, but Havlicek made the 2nd team right away for the first 3 years the award was around and then the first team for 5 consecutive years.

And speaking of monster numbers. Check out these seasons.

1971- 28.9 ppg, 9 rpg, 7.5 apg, 45 FG%, 81.8 FT%
1972- 27.5 ppg, 8.2 rpg, 7.5 apg, 45.8 FG%, 83.4 FT%

Even if you factor in pace for the rebounding and scale his mpg down from 45 to 40-42, those are still phenomenal numbers.

Basically an elite small forward in every way. Tremendous longevity, an elite scorer, a clutch player, a winner, one of the best playmakers ever at his position, an elite defender for his era and unselfish enough to come off the bench.

He won 2/3 titles as the best player on the team and 8 titles overall. That's the career of a top 20 player.

[jlauber]

One player who I think would have translated well to later eras is John Havlicek.

At 37/38 years in his 16th and final season, Havlicek averaged 16/4/4 on 45% shooting just 2 years before Magic and Bird entered the league. And how much different was the league in 2 years? General competition? Not much different, the ABA players were already in and that was Havlicek well his past his prime as well.

Actually Havlicek is incredibly underrated.

You could easily argue he was the best player on three championship teams.

1968- Averaged 25.9 ppg, 8.6 rpg and 7.5 apg on 45% shooting in the playoffs
1969- Averaged 25.4 ppg, 9.9 rpg and 5.6 apg on 45% shooting in the playoffs
1974- Averaged 27.1 ppg, 6.4 rpg and 6 apg on 48% shooting in the playoffs at 34 years old.

He won 8 total championships, made 4 all-nba first teams and 7 all-nba second teams. They only started the all-nba defensive teams in 1969, but Havlicek made the 2nd team right away for the first 3 years the award was around and then the first team for 5 consecutive years.

And speaking of monster numbers. Check out these seasons.

1971- 28.9 ppg, 9 rpg, 7.5 apg, 45 FG%, 81.8 FT%
1972- 27.5 ppg, 8.2 rpg, 7.5 apg, 45.8 FG%, 83.4 FT%

Even if you factor in pace for the rebounding and scale his mpg down from 45 to 40-42, those are still phenomenal numbers.

Basically an elite small forward in every way. Tremendous longevity, an elite scorer, a clutch player, a winner, one of the best playmakers ever at his position, an elite defender for his era and unselfish enough to come off the bench.

He won 2/3 titles as the best player on the team and 8 titles overall. That's the career of a top 20 player.

:applause:

And you already mentioned Barry in another post. Add Cunningham and Walker to this list (as I mentioned above), Frazier, Hayes, Lanier, as well as West (who was still playing well in the early 70's), and you get an idea of just how talented the players of the 60's really were.

[Gifted Mind]

One player who I think would have translated well to later eras is John Havlicek.

At 37/38 years in his 16th and final season, Havlicek averaged 16/4/4 on 45% shooting just 2 years before Magic and Bird entered the league. And how much different was the league in 2 years? General competition? Not much different, the ABA players were already in and that was Havlicek well his past his prime as well.

Actually Havlicek is incredibly underrated.

You could easily argue he was the best player on three championship teams.

1968- Averaged 25.9 ppg, 8.6 rpg and 7.5 apg on 45% shooting in the playoffs
1969- Averaged 25.4 ppg, 9.9 rpg and 5.6 apg on 45% shooting in the playoffs
1974- Averaged 27.1 ppg, 6.4 rpg and 6 apg on 48% shooting in the playoffs at 34 years old.

He won 8 total championships, made 4 all-nba first teams and 7 all-nba second teams. They only started the all-nba defensive teams in 1969, but Havlicek made the 2nd team right away for the first 3 years the award was around and then the first team for 5 consecutive years.

And speaking of monster numbers. Check out these seasons.

1971- 28.9 ppg, 9 rpg, 7.5 apg, 45 FG%, 81.8 FT%
1972- 27.5 ppg, 8.2 rpg, 7.5 apg, 45.8 FG%, 83.4 FT%

Even if you factor in pace for the rebounding and scale his mpg down from 45 to 40-42, those are still phenomenal numbers.

Basically an elite small forward in every way. Tremendous longevity, an elite scorer, a clutch player, a winner, one of the best playmakers ever at his position, an elite defender for his era and unselfish enough to come off the bench.

He won 2/3 titles as the best player on the team and 8 titles overall. That's the career of a top 20 player.

I've also always considered Havlicek very underrated and have brought him up a couple of times. To me he does indeed have 3 championships as the best player on his team. He also would have 2 Final MVPs if they counted Final MVPs back when he played (68 and 74). And yes a total of 8 championships, he won with and without Russell. An All-Around player, who could score, rebound, pass, and defend. Lastly, excellent longevity. There was not 1 thing he lacked, he was a team 1st player who came through in the clutch with many great performances.


His career reminds me a lot of Kobe's career actually. Havlicek actually has more titles, equal number of Final MVPs*, and more titles as best player on his team. The knock on Havlicek early was if he could win without Russell, just like for Kobe it was can he win without Shaq. Both Havlicek and Kobe went on to win without their legendary teammates, twice each.


He's definitely Top 20. And has a case for Top 15.

[Yung D-Will]

Hal Greer


1961- 19.6 PPG 5.8 RPG 3.8 APG
1962- 22.8 PPG 7.4 RPG 4.4 APG
1963- 19.4 PPG 5.7 RPG 3.4 APG
1964- 23.3 PPG 6.1 RPG 4.7 APG
1965- 20.2 PPG 5.1 RPG 4.5 APG
1966- 22.2PPG 5.9 RPG 4.8 APG
1967- 22.1 PPG 5.3 RPG 3.8 APG
1968- 24.1 PPG 5.4 RPG 4.5 APG
1969- 23.1 PPG 5.3 RPG 5.0 APG
1970- 22.0 PPG 4.7 RPG 5.1 APG
1971- 18.6 PPG 4.5 RPG 4.6 APG

http://philadunkia.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/hal_greer_3501.jpg




Looked up this guy of 2k8 for an all time draft a long time ago lol :oldlol:





/thread

[NBASTATMAN]

I have bird as my number 6 but I'd rather not comment in this thread because it's bound to turn into a Shaqattack,Fatal 9 vs jlauber and Phila thread :oldlol: .

But yea Bird's peak/Prime was nearly as good as anyones


24/10/7,
29/11/7
26/10/7
28/9/8
30/9/6

All on near 50% shooting and at the top of the leauge in steals every one of those years

My list
1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russel
4. Wilt
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Hakeem/Duncan
9. Duncan/Hakeem
10. Kobe


NICE LIST... Kareem and Russel would be over Jordan IMO if you count their college careers... Which should count...

[jlauber]

Since this topic has veered off slightly...

Artis Gilmore is another semi-"bridge." He dominated the ABA, so we will discount those seasons (mainly because the best big men of the time were in the NBA.) But in the mid-70's in the NBA he had several 20 ppg seasons, several 10+ rpg (as high as 13) seasons, and several .550+ seasons.

In the 80's he continued to play well, with several seasons with staggering FG% marks (SIX to be exact, with a high of .670) albeit in an era of the highest team FG% marks in NBA history. Even at age 35 he put up a 19.1 ppg, 10.4 rpg, and .623 season (84-85.)

But, to give you an idea of just how talented the early 70's were in the NBA...one only need go back to the 69-70 NCAA title game, when 6-8 Sidney Wicks DOMINATED the 7-2 Gilmore. He held Gilmore to a 9-29 shooting performance, blocked several of shots, dunked on him (illegal at the time), and outrebounded him, 18-16 (keep in mind that Gilmore is still the NCAA record-holder for rpg.)

The FACT was, the greats of the 60's that "crossed over" to the 70's were GREAT in the 70's. I have mentioned some previously (Havlicek, Barry, Cunningham, Walker, Lanier, Hayes, Thurmond...even Kareem...who was a rookie in 1969.) AND, you have to include Wilt...who was STILL dominating, despite a major knee surgery, his reduced shooting, and his age. He won the Finals MVP at age 35. And, in LAST season, 72-73, and at age 36, he led the NBA in rebounding (by nearly two per game), was voted first-team all-defense, and set a FG% mark of .727 that will NEVER be broken. My god, he even averaged 22.5 rpg in the post-season that year (and over 47 mpg as well.) Add one more interesting stat...he had TWO 30-30 games in his 71-72 season, at an advanced age, after major knee surgery, and after he cut back his offensive production. One of them, I believe, came at the expense of Bob Lanier. Why is that interesting? Well, first of all, Wilt probably had well over 100 30-30 games in his career...no one else probably even has as many as five...but, Kareem only had ONE 30-30 game in HIS career, and the two played in the league for four years...and it occurred AFTER Wilt retired.

In any case, there is certainly a substantial amount of evidence that puts the 60's and 70's into a better light when compared with the 80's, and by extension (Olajuwon), into the 90's (and by extension, the 00's...Shaq.)

[NBASTATMAN]

Lol Kind of hypocritical don't you think seeing as though Duncan took a rebuilding team in the 2003 spurs who's supporting cast had as little production as Hakeem's.

Pg: Tony Parker: 16/5/3
Sg: Stephen Jackson:12/2/4
Sf: Bruce Bowen 7/1/2
Pf: Tim Duncan 23/13/4
C: David Robinson 9/5/1

Manu Ginobilli: 8/8/5
Steve Smith: 7/2/1

And had one of the greatest finals series of all time

Averaged 24.2 points, 17.0 boards and 5.3 assists had a near quadruple double which put his team on a 19-0 run. And saved the series not to mention the 32/20/6 game


* Since he came into the leauge his team has never missed the playoffs
* Carried a rebuilding team to a championship
* Has one of the best playoff runs in Nba History
* Has been consistent and continues to be a top player at age 34
* The Spurs have never had less then a 50 win season since he came
* 4 Championships
* 3 Finals Mvp's
* 2 Back to Back Mvp's in his Prime
* Dominated since his rookie season
* Undefeated in the Finals


You forgot to mention that he beat kobe and Shaq twice.. Both will be top 10 players at the end of their careers.. Duncan has never played with any other superstar.. Borderline all stars only...

[jlauber]

You forgot to mention that he beat kobe and Shaq twice.. Both will be top 10 players at the end of their careers.. Duncan has never played with any other superstar.. Borderline all stars only...

I don't see Bird having a case over Duncan. Duncan carried far less talented rosters to more titles.

Bird OBVIOUSLY has no case over Wilt. None at all over Kareem. Magic beats him in career success. Same with MJ.

I don't think anyone who saw Russell play would rank Bird over him.

And, can anyone provide me with an argument to rank Bird over Shaq?

Or over any of those guys (except Magic...whom I have already taken care of.)

IMHO, he is in a borderline tie with Kobe, and Kobe will finish his career well ahead of him.

So, that leaves only Olajuwon.

Any takers on Bird over Shaq, Duncan, Russell, or Olajuwon?

[RajonKGcelts]

Jordan
KAJ
Russel
Wilt
Bird
Shaq
Magic
Hakeem
Kobe

[necya]

you just don't like Bird.
he is top 3 of all time.
do you remember the steal? the back to back buzzer beater against pistons and blazers? the 28pts that his left hand scored at portland? his lesson of shooting in his 60pts game + the between the leg pass? his 40-20 against indiana? his 49pts 14rbd 12ast in his last year? when he challenged Person and Miller at indianapolis and nailed 7/9 3pts FG? when he said he will score 30pts in the 2nd half and make it happen? his buzzer beaters to go into OT and to win the 2OT against the bullets - also has 49pts 20/30FG ? the 3pts contest? his duel against nique in the 4th QT in G7 of ECSF in 88 - after losing G5, he annonced boston will win the series.....

before MJ became the GOAT, Bird was.

i prefer ranking the best by their post

Magic and Oscar
MJ and West
Bird and Pippen
Malone Barkley Duncan
Olajuwon Abdul-Jabbar

[jlauber]

you just don't like Bird.
he is top 3 of all time.
do you remember the steal? the back to back buzzer beater against pistons and blazers? the 28pts that his left hand scored at portland? his lesson of shooting in his 60pts game + the between the leg pass? his 40-20 against indiana? his 49pts 14rbd 12ast in his last year? when he challenged Person and Miller at indianapolis and nailed 7/9 3pts FG? when he said he will score 30pts in the 2nd half and make it happen? his buzzer beaters to go into OT and to win the 2OT against the bullets - also has 49pts 20/30FG ? the 3pts contest? his duel against nique in the 4th QT in G7 of ECSF in 88 - after losing G5, he annonced boston will win the series.....

before MJ became the GOAT, Bird was

If you want to get into statistical battles with Wilt, you have NO chance. If you want to argue rings with Russell...you're done. If you want to argue both with Kareem (as well as MVPs), it is heavily one-sided in favor of Kareem. If you want to deal with absolute domination, particularly in the post-season, Shaq BLOWS Bird away. H2H against Magic? Magic easily wins. Career against Magic? Magic. Post-season play? Magic. Even you wouldn't take Bird over MJ.

That leaves Kobe, whom we have discussed 'til the cows came home. Perhaps they are close today. When Kobe retires he will be waving at Bird in his rear-view mirror. Tim Duncan? Once again, Duncan took inferior rosters to more success. Hakeem? Bird might have an edge in regular season stats and accolades, but Hakeem has a stronger case in the post-season.

BTW, ...Michael Cooper. Anyone that watched those Celtic-Laker battles will know what I am referring to.

[necya]

If you want to get into statistical battles with Wilt, you have NO chance. If you want to argue rings with Russell...you're done. If you want to argue both with Kareem (as well as MVPs), it is heavily one-sided in favor of Kareem. If you want to deal with absolute domination, particularly in the post-season, Shaq BLOWS Bird away. H2H against Magic? Magic easily wins. Career against Magic? Magic. Post-season play? Magic. Even you wouldn't take Bird over MJ.

That leaves Kobe, whom we have discussed 'til the cows came home. Perhaps they are close today. When Kobe retires he will be waving at Bird in his rear-view mirror. Tim Duncan? Once again, Duncan took inferior rosters to more success. Hakeem? Bird might have an edge in regular season stats and accolades, but Hakeem has a stronger case in the post-season.

BTW, ...Michael Cooper. Anyone that watched those Celtic-Laker battles will know what I am referring to.

what do you want? ranking the best ever who have played basketball or the guys who has the best palmares? cause we can make a tons of list the most talended too, the most dominant, the best scorer...

you talk about edge in regular season stats, but Bird or Kareem with the lakers didn't need to score 35pts a game, they had scorer like scott, McHale, Parish in their team...
i enumerated some facts to reminds how Bird was incredibly complete.

you gave us big players of the 60's and 70's but in this era, they had some big stars, right, but nothing more. wilt scored 50 every night against who? he faces 2 very good centers, the others had 20cm less and no skills.
i completely disagree with shaq even if i like him cause : - he left the magic in order to meet MJ in the finals but found Malone - he has to wait the best centers getting old to win championship - and a guy who is not able to make a normal shot - he is not a mental leader like olajuwon was for his team.
otherwise, since 2000 nba use to be boring imo.

[jlauber]

what do you want? ranking the best ever who have played basketball or the guys who has the best palmares? cause we can make a tons of list the most talended too, the most dominant, the best scorer...

you talk about edge in regular season stats, but Bird or Kareem with the lakers didn't need to score 35pts a game, they had scorer like scott, McHale, Parish in their team...
i enumerated some facts to reminds how Bird was incredibly complete.

you gave us big players of the 60's and 70's but in this era, they had some big stars, right, but nothing more. wilt scored 50 every night against who? he faces 2 very good centers, the others had 20cm less and no skills.
i completely disagree with shaq even if i like him cause : - he left the magic in order to meet MJ in the finals but found Malone - he has to wait the best centers getting old to win championship - and a guy who is not able to make a normal shot - he is not a mental leader like olajuwon was for his team.
otherwise, since 2000 nba use to be boring imo.

Chamberlain faced TWELVE HOF centers in his career...and basically outplayed, or downright dominated them all. Even at age 36 he was arguably close to a statistically prime Kareem. You posted some of Bird's best moments. I could go on for hours with all of Chamberlain's accomplishments, but all you really need to know, is that Wilt was still among the most dominant players in the NBA in his LAST season, and at age 36 (where was Bird at age 36?)

Magic played with two other HOFers, while Bird basically played with three. (I won't count players like Maravich, Cowens, McAdoo, etc.) Kareem was still an offensive force, but McHale was among the most efficient scorers of his era. In terms of overall talent, I would argue that both of those teams were as loaded as any in NBA history (including their other starters and key bench players.) IMHO, Magic should have went 3-0 against Bird. And, even if you were to argue that Bird was a better player in the first half of the decade (which I would not BTW...Magic's greatness went WAY beyond his own personal stats)...Magic steadily pulled away from Bird the last half of the decade and into the early 90's. Magic had a better career; he was better H2H; and he was better in the post-season, especially the Finals.

Shaq has more rings and was FAR more dominant in his Finals. He also had a longer career, and both of their PEAK seasons were close, but Shaq had more of them.

[jlauber]

get his c0ck out of ur mouth *******...ur such a clown

Since these comments are the basic extent of your posts...I really think we should question YOUR obsessions, don't you?

[MasterDurant24]

Does anybody think, that if we counted ABA, that Dr. J could crack the top 10?

[necya]

Does anybody think, that if we counted ABA, that Dr. J could crack the top 10?

no i don't think, but he is top 3 athlete in all sports

[JellyBean]

It is too hard to say. He is most def, top 20 on my list.

[jlauber]

Also, Bird falls in the top 20, and Kobe doesnt on my list. Check it out daily if you wish.

http://theballneverlies.com

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but when Bill Russell is ranked 96th all-time...sorry,

but I could put the names of everyone who ever played in the NBA in a hat, and draw them out blindly, and come up with a more accurate top-100.

[jlauber]

Also, Bird falls in the top 20, and Kobe doesnt on my list. Check it out daily if you wish.

http://theballneverlies.com

Oh wait,

I'm sorry. You obviously meant that if Bill Russell were playing today, at age 76, that he would be the 96th best player in the NBA. Now it makes perfect sense. Sorry about the confusion.

[Gifted Mind]

Also, Bird falls in the top 20, and Kobe doesnt on my list. Check it out daily if you wish.

http://theballneverlies.com

I spit out the water I was drinking.

[jlauber]

I spit out the water I was drinking.

Mine came out my nose.

[jlauber]

I spit out the water I was drinking.

Obviously, anyone can have a website these days...

but I sure hope he doesn't think he can publish a book on that topic.

[LBJ4MVP23]

So Kobe, who was a SIDEKICK for 3 of his 5 rings, and constantly underperformed in the Finals, is better than Bird? hahahaha

And why is Magic so much better than Bird? 5 rings, ok great. Look at how stacked that guy's team was. Bird didnt have a supporting cast of freaking Kareem and Worthy, but still won rings in that era. Not only that but he was an insane rebounder. And if you are so focused on rings, something that is a team achievement, finals mvps is much more telling, why is wilt ranked so high? Terrible list.

Somehow Kareem, who aside from MJ takes a total crap on anyones combination of team/individual achievements, is somehow in the middle of the pack? Good god man. You want to act like you know basketball history by putting Russel, 11 champs in 13 years when the league had 8 teams and his was stacked unlike anything we saw until Magics, but there were far more teams in the league at that time, but yet you have Kareem in the middle. Im just shocked.

Mj
Kareem
Bird/Magic
Wilt
Russel
Shaq
TD
Kobe
Hakeem.

Thats the proper list imo, but you can exchange russel and wilt too. I think russel's team achievements just need to be put in perspective just like the fact that Kobe has 5 rings with 2 finals mvps, the other 3 Shaq was averaging 35-20 to dominate like a mofo.

[haji_d_robertas]

I think Bird is the #1 Small forward of all time. Overall, top 5.

SG- Jordan
SF -Bird
C -Abdul-Jabbar
PF- Duncan
PG- Payton

I don't rank 1-5, that's stupid. How can a Guard be better than a
Center when they play a different position and style?

[jlauber]

So Kobe, who was a SIDEKICK for 3 of his 5 rings, and constantly underperformed in the Finals, is better than Bird? hahahaha

And why is Magic so much better than Bird? 5 rings, ok great. Look at how stacked that guy's team was. Bird didnt have a supporting cast of freaking Kareem and Worthy, but still won rings in that era. Not only that but he was an insane rebounder. And if you are so focused on rings, something that is a team achievement, finals mvps is much more telling, why is wilt ranked so high? Terrible list.

Somehow Kareem, who aside from MJ takes a total crap on anyones combination of team/individual achievements, is somehow in the middle of the pack? Good god man. You want to act like you know basketball history by putting Russel, 11 champs in 13 years when the league had 8 teams and his was stacked unlike anything we saw until Magics, but there were far more teams in the league at that time, but yet you have Kareem in the middle. Im just shocked.

Mj
Kareem
Bird/Magic
Wilt
Russel
Shaq
TD
Kobe
Hakeem.

Thats the proper list imo, but you can exchange russel and wilt too. I think russel's team achievements just need to be put in perspective just like the fact that Kobe has 5 rings with 2 finals mvps, the other 3 Shaq was averaging 35-20 to dominate like a mofo.

Let's see here...Kobe has played on FIVE championship teams, and played in SEVEN Finals. As far as Finals' performances go, yes Bird has an edge. Bird played well in TWO, and Kobe played well in ONE...but was the best player in another. In terms of post-season performances...Kobe has SEVEN post-season's with a higher scoring average. AND, if you factor in league average, Bird's post-season edge in FG% is marginal.

Having said that, though, I wouldn't put up a big argument if you want to rank Bird over Kobe. That argument is moot anyway, since, barring injury, Kobe will be ranked way ahead of Bird on most common-sense lists over the course of the next five years.

As far as Bird' supporting casts...are you kidding me? Bird had rosters with as many as FOUR other HOFers. Kareem was well past his prime for the majority of those Laker teams (don't take my word for it...look at his rebounding numbers), and Worthy only played on three of Magic's title teams. H2H Magic was better. Magic was better over the course of their ENTIRE careers. And Magic was better in the post-season, particularly in the Finals.

Wilt? He carried a team that went 40-40 to a game seven, one-point loss against a 62-18 Celtic team with FIVE other HOFers. He also came within an eyelash of as many as FIVE more rings to add to the two that he did win. And, even in LOSSES in those Finals, he put up numbers that would bury Bird's BEST efforts. In terms of INDIVIDUAL statistics...just take a look at the RECORD BOOK. Wilt is plastered all over it. Maybe Bird is in there somewhere, but if he is, I can't find him.

[Round Mound]

PG: Magic
SG: Jordan
SF: Bird
PF: Barkley
C: Wilt/or Hakeem

That is my All Time Team

[jlauber]

PG: Magic
SG: Jordan
SF: Bird
PF: Barkley
C: Wilt/or Hakeem

That is my All Time Team

Who would you rather have...Hakeem, or Bird? And why?

[MasterDurant24]

Also, Bird falls in the top 20, and Kobe doesnt on my list. Check it out daily if you wish.

http://theballneverlies.com

Ladies and gentleman, please welcome the funniest kid on the block, projectpag! :applause:

[jlauber]

Ladies and gentleman, please welcome the funniest kid on the block, projectpag! :applause:

I would feel more comfortable in getting a top-100 list with Stevie Wonder throwing darts at a board filled with every NBA player who ever played the game.

[MasterDurant24]

PG: Magic
SG: Jordan
SF: Bird
PF: Barkley
C: Wilt/or Hakeem

That is my All Time Team
Barkley? On an all time team?

[jlauber]

Barkley? On an all time team?

I was kind of thinking the same thing. Not sure if Duncan is considered a PF, or what I consider his actual position of center. Garnett and Malone among others would have a good case.

I am not going to second guess him too much, though.

Not after reading a list that has Russell ranked 96th.

[MasterDurant24]

I was kind of thinking the same thing. Not sure if Duncan is considered a PF, or what I consider his actual position of center. Garnett and Malone among others would have a good case.

I am not going to second guess him too much, though.

Not after reading a list that has Russell ranked 96th.
Barkley is great, but he's not even 6'5. He has said it himself. If that team were to play against somebody, Barkley would struggle with likes of Karl Malone, Duncan, Moses, and any taller, strong, skilled big man.