Dirk Nowitzki vs Dwight Howard

[Th3ShowMVP]

Who's currently better? The Steroid Jocker or Dork NoRingSki?

[KG5MVP]

this is a insult to dirk

[Yung D-Will]

Dwight.

[Papaya Petee]

this is a insult to dirk
I know, Dwight is a player made for winning championships.

[Th3ShowMVP]

Dwight.
coming from a guy who thinks D-Will > Cp3, so it's Dirk right?

[usdmef9]

coming from a guy who thinks D-Will > Cp3, so it's Dirk right?

x2

[Dbrog]

this is a insult to dirk

Agreed

[moaz]

I know, Dwight is a player made for winning championships.
Orlando isn't. so, I'll stick with Dirk.

[miles berg]

Obviously Nowitzki.

[Yung D-Will]

coming from a guy who thinks D-Will > Cp3, so it's Dirk right?

Your point is?

[DC Zephyrs]

Dirk

[Th3ShowMVP]

Your point is?
Saying D-Will>CP3 = No Credibility.

[Yung D-Will]

Saying D-Will>CP3 = No Credibility.

Along with most of this forum that said D-Will>Cp3


So if Most of the forum said that Deron is better then Paul. And Two of the people who said D-Will>Cp3 have agreed with you saying Dirk> Dwight then who has credibility here.

[novocaine]

100% Dirk

[Th3ShowMVP]

Along with most of this forum that said D-Will>Cp3


So if Most of the forum said that Deron is better then Paul. And Two of the people who said D-Will>Cp3 have agreed with you saying Dirk> Dwight then who has credibility here.
The person who said Dirk>Dwight because that's probably the one that's true .

[Magic Vinsanity]

Right now, Dwight, obviously. But prime, probably Dirk. Howard hasnt reached his prime yet but I dont seeing him being as good as prime Dirk.

[Papaya Petee]

coming from a guy who thinks D-Will > Cp3, so it's Dirk right?
Oh really? What's so wrong with saying that. Deron Williams destroys Cp3 Head to Head and he's had more playoff success, while having the ball in his hands less puts up almost the same numbers.

[Yung D-Will]

Saying D-Will>CP3 = No Credibility.
The two people who you're agreeing with in this thread put him above Cp3

http://i26.tinypic.com/dn0faw.jpg

http://i26.tinypic.com/de1res.jpg



http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=174511

Half of all the posters in the thread ranking point guards put him over cp3.

But we don't have credibility? Yea ok
:facepalm

[miles berg]

Right now, Dwight, obviously. But prime, probably Dirk. Howard hasnt reached his prime yet but I dont seeing him being as good as prime Dirk.

Dirk is still in his prime and is still better than Dwight right now.

[Kingsfans818]

Dirk and it's not even remotely close

Dwight still hasn't proven he can be "the man"

and unless your a guy your team can count on to score @ critical situations...you are NOT the man

and don't give me the FT BS because Shaq had FT problems but the lakers always went to him @ crunch time

Turkoglu was "the man" 2 seasons ago -- Dwight was just an incredible defensive presence.

[Th3ShowMVP]

Oh really? What's so wrong with saying that. Deron Williams destroys Cp3 Head to Head and he's had more playoff success, while having the ball in his hands less puts up almost the same numbers.
More playoff success? :oldlol: Having the ball in his hands less? so I guess that basically means that the Hornets trust Paul more than the Jazz trust Williams? Which means he's better?

Head to head? Then Yao>Dwight

[zORi]

Dirk and it's not even remotely close

Dwight still hasn't proven he can be "the man"

and unless your a guy your team can count on to score @ critical situations...you are NOT the man

and don't give me the FT BS because Shaq had FT problems but the lakers always went to him @ crunch time

Turkoglu was "the man" 2 seasons ago -- Dwight was just an incredible defensive presence.

LOLOL, and Dirk has?

Remember his MVP season? The one where he completely disappeared against GS? Leading his team to one of the most embarrassing moments in recent Sports history?

I love how people say "defense wins championships", and then immediately turn around and ride Dwight as if he's scoring like 8 ppg.

Also, what kind of man gets constantly pushed around by other teams?

Dirk's prime is better than Dwight right now (who hasn't reached his prime), but Dirk isn't as of this moment.

[DaniloGallinari]

coming from a guy who thinks D-Will > Cp3, so it's Dirk right?
lol People can't have opinions? I favor DWill over CP3 any day as well. Wait, that makes me lower than you? Is that how you little kids argue these days? If you don't agree, then I am superior? **** outta here.

Dirk any day. Just like I'd take Yao any day pre-2009.

[Th3ShowMVP]

lol People can't have opinions? I favor DWill over CP3 any day as well. Wait, that makes me lower than you? Is that how you little kids argue these days? If you don't agree, then I am superior? **** outta here.

Dirk any day. Just like I'd take Yao any day pre-2009.
No people can't have opinions.

[fos]

I'm obviously biased here but put another vote down for Dirk.

[Yung D-Will]

More playoff success? :oldlol: Having the ball in his hands less? so I guess that basically means that the Hornets trust Paul more than the Jazz trust Williams? Which means he's better?

Head to head? Then Yao>Dwight
Do you understand how Utah runs it's offense compared to New Orleans. New Orleans offense is completly reliant on Paul, Utah's isn't completly reliant on D-Will

[Bigsmoke]

Dirk

[dirkdiggler41]

LOLOL, and Dirk has?

Remember his MVP season? The one where he completely disappeared against GS? Leading his team to one of the most embarrassing moments in recent Sports history?

I love how people say "defense wins championships", and then immediately turn around and ride Dwight as if he's scoring like 8 ppg.

Also, what kind of man gets constantly pushed around by other teams?

Dirk's prime is better than Dwight right now (who hasn't reached his prime), but Dirk isn't as of this moment.

So I guess Dirk choked, got manhandled, disappeared his way to the finals.

Don Nelson created Dirk, he is the guy who knows Dirk the best, at the same Mavs had Avery Johnson, a guy who worked as a assistent coach for Nelson. The Mavs was basicly Don Nelson old team, we got outcoached and outplayed, but blaming it on Dirk is wrong. Blame Don Nelson, he was the man behind it, give him and his Warriors some credits.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Dirk and it's not even remotely close

Dwight still hasn't proven he can be "the man"

and unless your a guy your team can count on to score @ critical situations...you are NOT the man

and don't give me the FT BS because Shaq had FT problems but the lakers always went to him @ crunch time

Turkoglu was "the man" 2 seasons ago -- Dwight was just an incredible defensive presence.

What exactly has Dirk done that Dwight hasn't? Dirk in many more years in the league has played in 2 conference finals and one finals. Dwight has played in 2 conference finals and one finals already.

And both had great conference finals series and both had offensive series below their usual standard in the finals, except unlike Dirk, Dwight was impacting the game at the other end, averaged like 15 boards, had a record 9 blocks in game 4 and don't give me that crap about Dwight missing the free throws at the end of game 4 because Dirk missed critical free throws in the finals as well, the difference is that Dirk was a 90% FT shooter missing clutch free throws, Dwight isn't even a 60% FT shooter.

Turkoglu was the man on that team? :oldlol: You're a complete moron. Dwight was the leading scorer in the regular season and playoffs at 21 ppg on 57% in the season and 20 ppg on 60% in the playoffs. He averaged 26/13/3 in the conference finals and he had a 40/14/4 game to send Orlando to the finals. Turk shot what? 39% in the conference finals? Turk was the team's 3rd leading scorer in the regular season and playoffs. And who was getting other teams into foul trouble and demanding more double teams than anyone else on the team? Not Turk, but I'll give you a hint, he plays center.

And what's up with your hatred of Dwight Howard, RG? Did he **** your mom or something?

Give me Dwight over Dirk. Dirk might score an extra 5 ppg, but Dwight will get teams into more foul trouble and shooter a higher percentage, but the real difference is defense. Dwight will also grab an extra 5 rebounds per game, block more shots and change countless more shots in the paint.

Dwight is easily the more valuable player.

[zORi]

So I guess Dirk choked, got manhandled, disappeared his way to the finals.

Don Nelson created Dirk, he is the guy who knows Dirk the best, at the same Mavs had Avery Johnson, a guy who worked as a assistent coach for Nelson. The Mavs was basicly Don Nelson old team, we got outcoached and outplayed, but blaming it on Dirk is wrong. Blame Don Nelson, he was the man behind it, give him and his Warriors some credits.

Not blaming it solely on Dirk, as a matter of fact, I actually like him. My post came out kind of like a lashing, and for that I apologize.

But saying Dirk is better because he is "the man who can lead his team better" is dumb because Dirk has done nothing more for his team than Dwight has done.

Dirk's offense is better, and Dwight's defense is better. Dwight will never lead the league in scoring or get his FT% higher than 75% (and even that is a reach), and Dirk will never win DPOY or avg double-digit rebounds.

[zORi]

What exactly has Dirk done that Dwight hasn't? Dirk in many more years in the league has played in 2 conference finals and one finals. Dwight has played in 2 conference finals and one finals already.

And both had great conference finals series and both had offensive series below their usual standard in the finals, except unlike Dirk, Dwight was impacting the game at the other end, averaged like 15 boards, had a record 9 blocks in game 4 and don't give me that crap about Dwight missing the free throws at the end of game 4 because Dirk missed critical free throws in the finals as well, the difference is that Dirk was a 90% FT shooter missing clutch free throws, Dwight isn't even a 60% FT shooter.

Turkoglu was the man on that team? :oldlol: You're a complete moron. Dwight was the leading scorer in the regular season and playoffs at 21 ppg on 57% in the season and 20 ppg on 60% in the playoffs. He averaged 26/13/3 in the conference finals and he had a 40/14/4 game to send Orlando to the finals. Turk shot what? 39% in the conference finals? Turk was the team's 3rd leading scorer in the regular season and playoffs. And who was getting other teams into foul trouble and demanding more double teams than anyone else on the team? Not Turk, but I'll give you a hint, he plays center.

And what's up with your hatred of Dwight Howard, RG? Did he **** your mom or something?

Give me Dwight over Dirk. Dirk might score an extra 5 ppg, but Dwight will get teams into more foul trouble and shooter a higher percentage, but the real difference is defense. Dwight will also grab an extra 5 rebounds per game, block more shots and change countless more shots in the paint.

Dwight is easily the more valuable player.

That guy is RG?

Dear God, how many accounts does he need to say the same exact thing?

[ShaqAttack3234]

That guy is RG?

Dear God, how many accounts does he need to say the same exact thing?

The OP is him, but honestly, he's not a bad poster when he avoids topics involving Dwight Howard. He does have some knowledge, but his extreme hatred of Dwight makes him a troll. This thread is a perfect example.

[zORi]

The OP is him, but honestly, he's not a bad poster when he avoids topics involving Dwight Howard. He does have some knowledge, but his extreme hatred of Dwight makes him a troll. This thread is a perfect example.

Agreed. He's pretty good, but it somehow always tends to devolve into "Dwight isn't a prime Yao!!".

[SCdac]

This is a tough choice, because I think neither player is really enough to single-handedly will a team to victory in the post season, for different reasons.

But, if I had to choose a player in the here and now (not "for the future"), it'd probably be Dirk.

He has less off-games at what he's best at, has more experience in the league, can play more minutes on average, turns the ball over less, makes more of his free throws, and is better at dishing and handling the ball (which is important for somebody with the ball in his hands so much).

Dwight is the better defensive player certainly, the better rebounder, and is his game is conducive to making more than half his shots through out the course of seasons/games... but he's young, still gets flummoxed on both ends of the court, and isn't the most coordinated with the ball in his hands, or off the dribble... And it's not like he's never been a part of playoff exits too (pistons held him to 15.2 PPG in a 4-1 second round loss a couple years ago).

Having said that, if I wanted my team to be a "defense first" team regardless of how far my team could go, I'd choose dwight all the way. It's all a matter of preference. I don't think choosing either player, at this point in time, is wrong. Dirk was a most valuable player for a reason, and he hasn't slowed down much at all.

[Th3ShowMVP]

Do you understand how Utah runs it's offense compared to New Orleans. New Orleans offense is completly reliant on Paul, Utah's isn't completly reliant on D-Will
:facepalm Thats' your argument? If that was true, that would mean that teams put more emphasis on Paul and yet Paul still puts up better numbers and is a shit load more efficient

[Th3ShowMVP]

Give me Dwight over Dirk. Dirk might score an extra 5 ppg, but Dwight will get teams into more foul trouble and shooter a higher percentage, but the real difference is defense. Dwight will also grab an extra 5 rebounds per game, block more shots and change countless more shots in the paint.

Dwight is easily the more valuable player.
Nobody cares who you would want, didn't you say you preferred Ewing over Robinson? Yeah. Fail. :oldlol:

[Th3ShowMVP]

This is a tough choice, because I think neither player is really enough to single-handedly will a team to victory in the post season, for different reasons.

But, if I had to choose a player in the here and now (not "for the future"), it'd probably be Dirk.

He has less off-games at what he's best at, has more experience in the league, can play more minutes on average, turns the ball over less, makes more of his free throws, and is better at dishing and handling the ball (which is important for somebody with the ball in his hands so much).

Dwight is the better defensive player certainly, the better rebounder, and is his game is conducive to making more than half his shots through out the course of seasons/games... but he's young, still gets flummoxed on both ends of the court, and isn't the most coordinated with the ball in his hands, or off the dribble... And it's not like he's never been a part of playoff exits too (pistons held him to 15.2 PPG in a 4-1 second round loss a couple years ago).

Having said that, if I wanted my team to be a "defense first" team regardless of how far my team could go, I'd choose dwight all the way. It's all a matter of preference. I don't think choosing either player, at this point in time, is wrong. Dirk was a most valuable player for a reason, and he hasn't slowed down much at all.
One of the biggest Dirk Haters chooses Dirk.

You know the answer. Dirk The Jerk.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Nobody cares who you would want, didn't you say you preferred Ewing over Robinson? Yeah. Fail. :oldlol:

Yes, if Robinson had a series anywhere near as good and clutch as Ewing's in 1990 vs Boston, showed the toughness Ewing did coming back from an injury, dropping 27 points and extending the Bulls series to 7 games with an inferior cast in '92, led his team to the finals in '94 with a clutch 24/22/7/5 game 7 in the conference finals, battled through injuries well past his prime and outplayed a prime Alonzo Mourning in the deciding 5th game on the road or dropped 45/13 on the Bad Boy Pistons in the playoffs then maybe I'd pick him. But he didn't do those things, Ewing did.

Fail? You're really showing your age.

[Th3ShowMVP]

Yes, if Robinson had a series anywhere near as good and clutch as Ewing's in 1990 vs Boston, showed the toughness Ewing did coming back from an injury, dropping 27 points and extending the Bulls series to 7 games with an inferior cast in '92, led his team to the finals in '94 with a clutch 24/22/7/5 game 7 in the conference finals, battled through injuries well past his prime and outplayed a prime Alonzo Mourning in the deciding 5th game on the road or dropped 45/13 on the Bad Boy Pistons in the playoffs then maybe I'd pick him. But he didn't do those things, Ewing did.

Fail? You're really showing your age.
Who missed the game-tying/winning layup again in the playoffs vs the Pacers? It wasn't Robinson, it was your favorite player, PATRICK EWING! :lol

Dirk>Dwight. Robinson>Ewing.

[zORi]

This is a tough choice, because I think neither player is really enough to single-handedly will a team to victory in the post season, for different reasons.

But, if I had to choose a player in the here and now (not "for the future"), it'd probably be Dirk.

He has less off-games at what he's best at, has more experience in the league, can play more minutes on average, turns the ball over less, makes more of his free throws, and is better at dishing and handling the ball (which is important for somebody with the ball in his hands so much).

Dwight is the better defensive player certainly, the better rebounder, and is his game is conducive to making more than half his shots through out the course of seasons/games... but he's young, still gets flummoxed on both ends of the court, and isn't the most coordinated with the ball in his hands, or off the dribble... And it's not like he's never been a part of playoff exits too (pistons held him to 15.2 PPG in a 4-1 second round loss a couple years ago).

Having said that, if I wanted my team to be a "defense first" team regardless of how far my team could go, I'd choose dwight all the way. It's all a matter of preference. I don't think choosing either player, at this point in time, is wrong. Dirk was a most valuable player for a reason, and he hasn't slowed down much at all.

Ok, see that is a reason that I could respect.

I can see your point of view, even though I don't necessarily agree with it 100%. :applause:

[Yung D-Will]

:facepalm Thats' your argument? If that was true, that would mean that teams put more emphasis on Paul and yet Paul still puts up better numbers and is a shit load more efficient
No that would just mean the ball is in Paul's hands more then Deron's.
I don't see your point.

But I found out that you're

RG

so there's also no reason in arguing with you.

[momo]

Is this a Tmacksrockets thread? Am I supposed to say Dwight > Yao? Not sure.

[zORi]

Who missed the game-tying/winning layup again in the playoffs vs the Pacers? It wasn't Robinson, it was your favorite player, PATRICK EWING! :lol

Dirk>Dwight. Robinson>Ewing.

Is that really your only argument? 1 missed clutch layup?

[creepingdeath]

Dirk's offense is better, and Dwight's defense is better. Dwight will never lead the league in scoring or get his FT% higher than 75% (and even that is a reach), and Dirk will never win DPOY or avg double-digit rebounds.
He averaged 9.9 rebounds in a regular season twice and is averaging 11 rebounds in the playoffs, but yeah, I agree with you on the rest.

Still, my vote obviously goes to Dirk.

[zORi]

Is this a Tmacksrockets thread? Am I supposed to say Dwight > Yao? Not sure.

Don't forget NoLayupsRule2.

LOL, he'd probably bust a nut if someone did say Yao>Dwight.

[Th3ShowMVP]

No that would just mean the ball is in Paul's hands more then Deron's.
I don't see your point.

But I found out that you're

RG

so there's also no reason in arguing with you.
I saw you try to argue with people on realgm about this and failed. :oldlol:

[Th3ShowMVP]

Is that really your only argument? 1 missed clutch layup?
he loves talking about chokers, so do i :oldlol:

[SCdac]

One of the biggest Dirk Haters chooses Dirk.

You know the answer. Dirk The Jerk.

I'm not a "Dirk Hater"... I'm just not a fan of the Mavericks, and Cuban is for the most part, a jerk.

Dirk is one of the most respectful players in the league, never really complains about anything, and let's his game do the talking... I can respect all of that.

But, like any player, he's got faults to his game, and I've seen very many people on this board gloss over them too much, for whatever reason... I've pointed them out at times, maybe that's why I'm considered a "hater".

Still, both players in question have had truly amazing moments and not-so-amazing moments.

Like I said, it's a tough choice, and if Dwight improves on his moves and his overall grasp of basketball, I'd probably go with him 8 times out of 10... I think his ceiling is slightly higher than Dirk's, and that's really saying something... But, right now, I like Dirk's abilities as a player, and (this is just a hunch) I think he's probably more eager to do what he has to do to win a championship.

[zORi]

He averaged 9.9 rebounds in a regular season twice and is averaging 11 rebounds in the playoffs, but yeah, I agree with you on the rest.

Still, my vote obviously goes to Dirk.

Yeah, but that was almost 10 years ago. If he couldn't do it at 7 ft at 24 and 25, I doubt he'll do it at 32+.

Still a great player, though.

[Th3ShowMVP]

I think his ceiling is slightly higher than Dirk's, and that's really saying something... But, right now, I like Dirk's abilities as a player, and (this is just a hunch) I think he's probably more eager to do what he has to do to win a championship.
No...it isn't.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Is that really your only argument? 1 missed clutch layup?

Yeah, this is the same guy who bases his argument for Dwight being a choker on his 2 missed free throws in the finals when Orlando was up there, yet he ignores that Scottie Pippen missed 2 free throws with Chicago up by 2 late in game 4 of the '98 ECF and Reggie Miller won the game on a 3 to tie the series at 2. Didn't Duncan miss a free throw or 2 in a playoff game that Marbury won directly afterwards on a 3?

One play does not define how clutch a player is and while Ewing has had his failures, he's also had his great playoff moments, Robinson hasn't had nearly as many.

[Th3ShowMVP]

Yeah, this is the same guy who bases his argument for Dwight being a choker on his 2 missed free throws in the finals when Orlando was up there, yet he ignores that Scottie Pippen missed 2 free throws with Chicago up by 2 late in game 4 of the '98 ECF and Reggie Miller won the game on a 3 to tie the series at 2. Didn't Duncan miss a free throw or 2 in a playoff game that Marbury won directly afterwards on a 3?

One play does not define how clutch a player is and while Ewing has had his failures, he's also had his great playoff moments, Robinson hasn't had nearly as many.
Yeah, that's clearly the same as the NBA Finals, and closing out a game and tying the series 2-2 in the Finals. :oldlol: Dwight Howard clutch? :oldlol:

[Th3ShowMVP]

Yeah, this is the same guy who bases his argument for Dwight being a choker on his 2 missed free throws in the finals when Orlando was up there, yet he ignores that Scottie Pippen missed 2 free throws with Chicago up by 2 late in game 4 of the '98 ECF and Reggie Miller won the game on a 3 to tie the series at 2. Didn't Duncan miss a free throw or 2 in a playoff game that Marbury won directly afterwards on a 3?

One play does not define how clutch a player is and while Ewing has had his failures, he's also had his great playoff moments, Robinson hasn't had nearly as many.
Yeah Robinson doesn't have those two rings that Ewing has. Oh wait a minute, Robinson is the one with the rings. But Robinson hasn't been to the NBA Finals as many times as Ewing, oh wait, Robinson has been there more than Ewing has.

But.....I guess........Nothing. Robinson>Ewing.

[miles berg]

I still think that the next super team should be The 3 Ds; Dirk Nowitzki, Dwight Howard, & Deron Williams. That would be an extremely balanced trio and all guys that play with humble assertion.

[SinJackal]

LOLOL, and Dirk has?

Remember his MVP season? The one where he completely disappeared against GS? Leading his team to one of the most embarrassing moments in recent Sports history?

I love how people say "defense wins championships", and then immediately turn around and ride Dwight as if he's scoring like 8 ppg.

Also, what kind of man gets constantly pushed around by other teams?

Dirk's prime is better than Dwight right now (who hasn't reached his prime), but Dirk isn't as of this moment.

I agree with this post. Dwight, while not a mid 20s scoring kind of guy, still gets 12-13 boards and 18-20 points anyway, while being a BIG guy who actually moves fast. He's the closest player defensively that we've had to DRob and Hakeem. Not as good as either, but he's the closest defensive powerhouse to those guys we've had since them. Of course he can't score like either of them either, but. . .he's clearly the best center in the NBA by far.

There are a lot of people in the NBA who can score 20+. How many players are there like Dwight? Dwight > Dirk. More rare, and more valuble.

Here's a better way to look at it: If you had the option to put either Dirk or Dwight on any team in the NBA, which player would be the best fit for the most teams? Imo, it's quite obviously Dwight.

[zORi]

Yeah, this is the same guy who bases his argument for Dwight being a choker on his 2 missed free throws in the finals when Orlando was up there, yet he ignores that Scottie Pippen missed 2 free throws with Chicago up by 2 late in game 4 of the '98 ECF and Reggie Miller won the game on a 3 to tie the series at 2. Didn't Duncan miss a free throw or 2 in a playoff game that Marbury won directly afterwards on a 3?

One play does not define how clutch a player is and while Ewing has had his failures, he's also had his great playoff moments, Robinson hasn't had nearly as many.

Exactly.

Everyone, and I mean everyone, has screwed up in the clutch at least once. To diminish a player's ability because of one mistake (especially when there is more good to outweight the bad), is just foolish.

Th3Show (or whatever), NoLayupsRule2, RG just give the Dwight Howard hate a rest. What do you actually mean to accomplish with this? To try to get everyone on this board to hate Dwight? Then what?

[SCdac]

No...it isn't.

Well, hypothetically, if Dwight Howard improves to the point where he can counter double/triple teams with tactful post moves and decisions, while consistently hitting open players with passes, and generally improves on his turnovers and foul-proneness... He could potentially become a MVP and DPOY kind of player... I don't see that from him yet... But you never know, he's still pretty young. I'm not assuming he'll get better over night, but I'm not assuming he won't get better in time.

[zORi]

I agree with this post. Dwight, while not a mid 20s scoring kind of guy, still gets 12-13 boards and 18-20 points anyway, while being a BIG guy who actually moves fast. He's the closest player defensively that we've had to DRob and Hakeem. Not as good as either, but he's the closest defensive powerhouse to those guys we've had since them. Of course he can't score like either of them either, but. . .he's clearly the best center in the NBA by far.

There are a lot of people in the NBA who can score 20+. How many players are there like Dwight? Dwight > Dirk. More rare, and more valuble.

Here's a better way to look at it: If you had the option to put either Dirk or Dwight on any team in the NBA, which player would be the best fit for the most teams? Imo, it's quite obviously Dwight.

That's exactly how I was trying to put it.

[Nobler]

Three3showmvp obvious troll acct. Anyways IMO at this pt in time Id have to go with dwight, first of all bc we all know how few quality bigs there in the league. Second bc hes younger. Third I think we havent seen the best of Dwight as of yet and we probably have seen the best of Dirk at this stage in his career. Dont get me wrong Dirk is amazing but Id take Dwight respectively.

[SCdac]

If the game was tied as the 4th was coming to a close, who you want taking your last shot or being your go-to guy, Dirk or Dwight?...

[creepingdeath]

Come on, even Dwight fans have to admit that 8 out of 10 times, Dirk is extremely clutch, one of the top 3 clutch players in the league. I mean, I can live with people choosing Dwight over Dirk in general because of the age discrepancy, but concerning clutchness..

[SinJackal]

Come on, even Dwight fans have to admit that 8 out of 10 times, Dirk is extremely clutch, one of the top 3 clutch players in the league. I mean, I can live with people choosing Dwight over Dirk in general because of the age discrepancy, but concerning clutchness..

Dirk does hit clutch shots, but Dwight can be more dominant than Dirk throughout an entire game and ensure the game's not so close as to require a clutch shot. Dwight can also much more easily prevent clutch baskets against his team. . .Dirk's an unreliable defender.

Dominating a game and winning by 8-9 points is better than winning by a point off of a late game shot when you weren't dominant enough to win by a comfortable margin, forcing the neccessity for clutch shots.

[zORi]

Come on, even Dwight fans have to admit that 8 out of 10 times, Dirk is extremely clutch, one of the top 3 clutch players in the league. I mean, I can live with people choosing Dwight over Dirk in general because of the age discrepancy, but concerning clutchness..

No one is arguing that. But being more clutch doesn't make you the better player.

Fisher is more clutch than over half of the players in the league as well.

With Dwight, you have less of a chance of it getting that close, anyway.

[DC Zephyrs]

You guys are looking at Dwight's stats in a vacuum and making him out to be a better offensive player than he really is. 18-20 points on 60% shooting sounds great, but it comes almost entirely in the flow of the game. Give me the guy who can actually create his own shot at the end of a game (Dirk).

[Th3ShowMVP]

No one is arguing that. But being more clutch doesn't make you the better player.

Fisher is more clutch than over half of the players in the league as well.

With Dwight, you have less of a chance of it getting that close, anyway.
He's more reliable and can help you win games at teh end, Dwight can't do that and is not reliable.

[Magic Vinsanity]

Dirk is still in his prime and is still better than Dwight right now.Dirk will start to decline in the next couple years, Dwight will be approaching his prime.

If you had to take Dwight right now, or Dirk right now, who would you choose? All old guy who's window is closing, or Howard?

Come on, its a no brainer.

[zORi]

You guys are looking at Dwight's stats in a vacuum and making him out to be a better offensive player than he really is. 18-20 points on 60% shooting sounds great, but it comes almost entirely in the flow of the game. Give me the guy who can actually create his own shot at the end of a game (Dirk).

At the flow of the game?

OK, he's assisted on less than half of his shots (which is low for a big man, this is mostly due to our lack of a true PG, even though I love Jameer).

I love how we are all just completely ignoring defense, as well.

[SinJackal]

You guys are looking at Dwight's stats in a vacuum and making him out to be a better offensive player than he really is. 18-20 points on 60% shooting sounds great, but it comes almost entirely in the flow of the game. Give me the guy who can actually create his own shot at the end of a game (Dirk).

20 points "in the flow of the game" is not any worse than 20 points out of the flow of the game. 20 points are 20 points. However, 4-5 extra rebounds are 4-5 extra possessions for your team. Not to mention vastly superior defense which means the OTHER team is scoring less.

Dwight is the most efficiant and useful player in the NBA when you factor in both ends of the floor. He doesn't have to have the ability to bang in post shots late in the game when he's such a huge asset to his team all throughout the game. Dwight will ensure your team does not -NEED- to hit lucky shots at the end of the game. Clutch shots are overrated compared to dominating post players who do all the damn work the whole game.

[zORi]

He's more reliable and can help you win games at teh end, Dwight can't do that and is not reliable.

You ignored my earlier question, you homer (sound familiar).

What do you have to accomplish by devoting so much of your life to hating Dwight? Someone you, in all likelihood, have never met and who could care less about you?

[SCdac]

Dirk does hit clutch shots, but Dwight can be more dominant than Dirk throughout an entire game and ensure the game's not so close as to require a clutch shot.

Got to keep in mind that Dwight only averaged 35 minutes per game in the post season, it's not like he's on the court all the time, which is a big part of the reason I'd choose Dirk right now.

59 fouls... 51 turnovers... in 14 post season games.

Dwight as you can see has much to improve on, lately he's averaged less minutes than his body is probably capable of, for very noticeable reasons.

Against the Bobcats he never logged more than 30 minutes due to foul trouble, yet his Orlando team still swept them. In the first game of the Celtics, he shot 3/10 and finished with 7 turnovers, 4 fouls, etc....

Even if he's a force defensively, his production is not quite as "automatic" as Dirk's is at this time. You won't often see those kinds of games from Dirk where he comes close to fouling out, or takes just 7-10 shots, he's very efficient which tends to go unnoticed because it's what we expect from great players, and he's very much the fire power for Dallas from the first to the last minute.

[Th3ShowMVP]

You ignored my earlier question, you homer (sound familiar).

What do you have to accomplish by devoting so much of your life to hating Dwight? Someone you, in all likelihood, have never met and who could care less about you?
Not hating on Dwight, just hating on his game....and his fans. Totally different.

[SCdac]

Dwight is the most efficiant and useful player in the NBA when you factor in both ends of the floor.

He almost lead the league in Turnovers (2nd) and Fouls (1st) last season.

Last year in the playoffs, he lead all players with 67 turnovers and 102 fouls.

Certainly there's more to efficiency than making 50-60% of your shot attempts.

[creepingdeath]

No one is arguing that. But being more clutch doesn't make you the better player.

Didn't say that, I'm just referring to the specific question that has been asked - who would you rather take in the 4th quarter of a close game. ;) Didn't knock on Dwight.

[zORi]

Not hating on Dwight, just hating on his game....and his fans. Totally different.

Not when you go through drastic measures of looking up stats for multiple players to compare him to, creating a bunch of usernames (even though we all usually figure out sooner or later it's you), creating lists to purposefully leave him out of and then laughing at people who say you should include him, and just being an ass in general about all of it.

Seriously, why Dwight? I mean Kobe or LeBron would attract more attention (if that's what you're after), but this seems like a lot, man. It really looks like you have a personal issue with him.

[zORi]

Didn't say that, I'm just referring to the specific question that has been asked - who would you rather take in the 4th quarter of a close game. ;) Didn't knock on Dwight.

Oh, my bad man.

Yeah, I'd definitely rather Dirk have the last shot, than Dwight.

On the other hand, if it's the other team inbounding in the last 5 seconds of a 1pt game, I'd rather have Dwight out there than Dirk.

[Th3ShowMVP]

Not when you go through drastic measures of looking up stats for multiple players to compare him to, creating a bunch of usernames (even though we all usually figure out sooner or later it's you), creating lists to purposefully leave him out of and then laughing at people who say you should include him, and just being an ass in general about all of it.

Seriously, why Dwight? I mean Kobe or LeBron would attract more attention (if that's what you're after), but this seems like a lot, man. It really looks like you have a personal issue with him.
Dwight>Lebron

[ginobli2311]

right now its easily howard. all time. its dirk by a wide wide margin. howard has a lot of work to do to catch Dirk. he easily could. but he needs to improve his game a lot.

[No_Look604]

ahhh give me Dirk...but Dwight is slowly impressing me...his playoffs this year was much meaner/fierce than I've ever seen him play.

was that against Boston when he just went ape shit? bullying people around?
*not smiling like a fcukin idiot during the most crucial points in games*

keep throwin dem elbows big fella!!>>>directed at LBJ and Bosh hahaha

[zORi]

Dwight>Lebron
Ok, guy.

[DC Zephyrs]

20 points "in the flow of the game" is not any worse than 20 points out of the flow of the game. 20 points are 20 points. However, 4-5 extra rebounds are 4-5 extra possessions for your team. Not to mention vastly superior defense which means the OTHER team is scoring less.

Dwight is the most efficiant and useful player in the NBA when you factor in both ends of the floor. He doesn't have to have the ability to bang in post shots late in the game when he's such a huge asset to his team all throughout the game. Dwight will ensure your team does not -NEED- to hit lucky shots at the end of the game. Clutch shots are overrated compared to dominating post players who do all the damn work the whole game.

But Dwight struggles to create his own shot at any time in the game. He's not a guy you can just give the ball to and let him do work when you need a bucket, whether that be the 4th quarter or the 1st. He's an overall effective offensive player, but he has very little take over ability due to his lack of skill.

Dwight is still one of the most valuable players in a league of weak centers, but at the end of the day I want my franchise player to be able to step up and hit big shots when I need him to.

[PistolPete]

Dirk Nowitzki is rolling over in his grave

[zORi]

But Dwight struggles to create his own shot at any time in the game. He's not a guy you can just give the ball to and let him do work when you need a bucket, whether that be the 4th quarter or the 1st. He's an overall effective offensive player, but he has very little take over ability due to his lack of skill.

Dwight is still one of the most valuable players in a league of weak centers, but at the end of the day I want my franchise player to be able to step up and hit big shots when I need him to.

But you don't mind your franchise guy (despite being 7ft) not being able to grab 10 rebounds per game? Or get pushed around by guys with a mean streak who are smaller than him?

You are going on 1 stat alone. Points.

[ginobli2311]

But you don't mind your franchise guy (despite being 7ft) not being able to grab 10 rebounds per game? Or get pushed around by guys with a mean streak who are smaller than him?

You are going on 1 stat alone. Points.

dirk averages 11 boards per game in the playoffs. he's one of the 5 best clutch players in the league and one of the 5 best scorers in the post season over the last decade.

like i said. i would currently take howard. but dirk has been great for 10 plus years now. ten straight year of 50 plus wins is exactly what you want out of your franchise player.

[creepingdeath]

But you don't mind your franchise guy (despite being 7ft) not being able to grab 10 rebounds per game? Or get pushed around by guys with a mean streak who are smaller than him?

You are going on 1 stat alone. Points.
C'mon dude... Dirk has had hundreds (yeah, hundreds) of games with 10+ rebounds, two 9.9 regular game season averages, and is grabbing 11 rebounds a game in the playoffs (where it matters the most).

And being pushed around? Dirk is one of the few unguardable players in the league, a smaller, physical guy might be able to shut him down a bit from time to time, but that's a very, very rare thing.

[Clifton]

right now its easily howard. all time. its dirk by a wide wide margin. howard has a lot of work to do to catch Dirk. he easily could. but he needs to improve his game a lot.
Um, am I missing something? He's still basically in his prime. Not only has he not lost much but his paint game is the best it's ever been.

[godofgods]

Dirk is a legend, Dwight is just an all star.

Dirk >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dwight.

[zORi]

C'mon dude... Dirk has had hundreds (yeah, hundreds) of games with 10+ rebounds, two 9.9 regular game season averages, and is grabbing 11 rebounds a game in the playoffs (where it matters the most).

And being pushed around? Dirk is one of the few unguardable players in the league, a smaller, physical guy might be able to shut him down a bit from time to time, but that's a very, very rare thing.

Yet Dwight still manages to grab more despite being shorter and having one less guy to box out for him (ask any Magic fan who I'm talking about and they'll know immediately).

Dirk was man handled by K-mart last year ('09). Not to mention leading his team to the first team ever to be the 1st and 2nd seed eliminated by the 8th and 7th seeds, and let's not go back to the Finals.

Like I said, Dirk's prime is better than Dwight right now, but present Dirk is not equal to present Dwight.

[zORi]

Dirk is a legend, Dwight is just an all star.

Dirk >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dwight.
Umm, maybe because Dirk has had a 12 year career while Dwight has only been playing half that time. Dwight hasn't even entered his prime, yet.

[Th3ShowMVP]

But you don't mind your franchise guy (despite being 7ft) not being able to grab 10 rebounds per game? Or get pushed around by guys with a mean streak who are smaller than him?

You are going on 1 stat alone. Points.
his rebounds are upped to 11 in the playoffs.

[miles berg]

Dirk was man handled by K-mart last year ('09).

Umm, no.

Dirk, in the Denver '09 series:

34.4 ppg
11.6 rpg
53.4% shooting

[zORi]

his rebounds are upped to 11 in the playoffs.

Dwight still has more, despite being shorter.

And I actually put down the wrong series, my bad I forgot he torched the Nuggets.

[Th3ShowMVP]

Dwight still has more, despite being shorter.

And I actually put down the wrong series, my bad I forgot he torched the Nuggets.
height doesn't define rebounding, ask barkley and rodman that.

[zORi]

height doesn't define rebounding, ask barkley and rodman that.
'Kind of counteractive to your stupid point, isn't it?

Toughness and timing help define it.

[creepingdeath]

Yet Dwight still manages to grab more despite being shorter and having one less guy to box out for him (ask any Magic fan who I'm talking about and they'll know immediately).
Well, thats because Dirk is a mid-range threat first and foremost and he doesn't hang around the rim. I'm not taking away anything from Dwight here, so why do you feel obliged to knock on Dirk because of numbers? We could play numbers games all day... we still wouldn't agree on who the better player is.



Dirk was man handled by K-mart last year ('09). Not to mention leading his team to the first team ever to be the 1st and 2nd seed eliminated by the 8th and 7th seeds, and let's not go back to the Finals.
You're talking about the regular season game on December 27th? This one game does prove what? Only months earlier Dirk "manhandled" K-Mart with 44pts and 14 rebounds @ 57.7 FG% I don't know what kind of proof that is to knock on Dirk. :oldlol:

And in order to being eliminated by the 8th and 7th seed as the 1st and 2nd you have achieve a tremendous regular season first. Granted, Dirk did play badly against the Warriors, he himself even admitted that. I don't want to excuse that, but apart from the whole team playing like shit (except Josh Howard) it was a huge match-up problem, Avery coached like sh*t and it's well known how Nellie learned about the Mavs' weaknesses.

Before I forget, here are Dirk's numbers in being eliminated against the 7th seed (in a very close West where the 2nd-8th seed were only a few games apart from each other, so **** that negative record):

26.7ppg
8.2 rbg
3.0 apg
54.7 FG%
57.1 3PT%
95.2 FT%

Still not sure how that does help evaluating who's a better player between Dirk and Dwight.


Like I said, Dirk's prime is better than Dwight right now, but present Dirk is not equal to present Dwight.
I disagree and I don't see a reason why he shouldn't be, because Dirk is in fact still in his prime.

[zORi]

Well, thats because Dirk is a mid-range threat first and foremost and he doesn't hang around the rim. I'm not taking away anything from Dwight here, so why do you feel obliged to knock on Dirk because of numbers? We could play numbers games all day... we still wouldn't agree on who the better player is.


You're talking about the regular season game on December 27th? This one game does prove what? Only months earlier Dirk "manhandled" K-Mart with 44pts and 14 rebounds @ 57.7 FG% I don't know what kind of proof that is to knock on Dirk. :oldlol:

And in order to being eliminated by the 8th and 7th seed as the 1st and 2nd you have achieve a tremendous regular season first. Granted, Dirk did play badly against the Warriors, he himself even admitted that. I don't want to excuse that, but apart from the whole team playing like shit (except Josh Howard) it was a huge match-up problem, Avery coached like sh*t and it's well known how Nellie learned about the Mavs' weaknesses.

Before I forget, here are Dirk's numbers in being eliminated against the 7th seed (in a very close West where the 2nd-8th seed were only a few games apart from each other, so **** that negative record):

26.7ppg
8.2 rbg
3.0 apg
54.7 FG%
57.1 3PT%
95.2 FT%

Still not sure how that does help evaluating who's a better player between Dirk and Dwight.


I disagree and I don't see a reason why he shouldn't be, because Dirk is in fact still in his prime.

As far as th K-mart thing, I told you that was an accident. I was talking about the Playoffs, anyway.

I don't need to rip Dirk, for that you were right. But I was just trying to get my point across about Dirk being the man and Howard being the man of their respective teams, and how neither of them has accomplished more than the other (team-wise).

[creepingdeath]

I don't need to rip Dirk, for that you were right. But I was just trying to get my point across about Dirk being the man and Howard being the man of their respective teams, and how neither of them has accomplished more than the other (team-wise).
Then just say so, no need to warm up any clich

[Th3ShowMVP]

Something simple as Dirk is reliable in the 4th and Dwight isn't, already makes Dirk the better player.

Dwight is a liability in the 4th, not just useless. Dirk helps you win games from behind, Dwight doesn't.

[ShaqAttack3234]

In response to RG's ridiculous troll post about Ewing and Robinson. How many times did Robinson get to the finals as the franchise player? I'll give you a hint, the answer is a number less than one.

:oldlol: at you using Robinson's rings as a reason why he was better, in one of them, he was Duncan's sidekick and in the other he played fewer total minutes than Malik Rose in both the regular season and the playoffs and was a single digit scorer.

And how are Pippen's misses worse? He also failed to seal the game and his team lost that game, yeah, it wasn't the finals, but the conference finals is huge as well and Pippen was a better FT shooter than Howard so you expect him to make them more than you expect Howard to.

[chips93]

make this simple

orlando is better than dallas, but dallas-dirk>orlando-howard, only by a small bit though

people hate on howard because he has such an ugly unrefined offensive game, but the thing is he is the best defensive player in the league, defense is half the game, and a good offensive player

dirk is a below average defender, and a very good offensive game

if you value defense as much as offense then howard is obviously better

[Th3ShowMVP]

make this simple

orlando is better than dallas, but dallas-dirk>orlando-howard, only by a small bit though

people hate on howard because he has such an ugly unrefined offensive game, but the thing is he is the best defensive player in the league, defense is half the game, and a good offensive player

dirk is a below average defender, and a very good offensive game

if you value defense as much as offense then howard is obviously better
:wtf: :facepalm:

[Th3ShowMVP]

In response to RG's ridiculous troll post about Ewing and Robinson. How many times did Robinson get to the finals as the franchise player? I'll give you a hint, the answer is a number less than one.

:oldlol: at you using Robinson's rings as a reason why he was better, in one of them, he was Duncan's sidekick and in the other he played fewer total minutes than Malik Rose in both the regular season and the playoffs and was a single digit scorer.

And how are Pippen's misses worse? He also failed to seal the game and his team lost that game, yeah, it wasn't the finals, but the conference finals is huge as well and Pippen was a better FT shooter than Howard so you expect him to make them more than you expect Howard to.
Yes, Conference Finals = Finals. :oldlol: Plus, Pippen already proved them all wrong with 6 rings, Howard? Zero. Robinson was easily better than Ewing, anybody who isn't from New York will tell you the same.

[zORi]

[QUOTE=creepingdeath]Then just say so, no need to warm up any clich

[creepingdeath]

LOL, can't bring up FT's because Dirk has missed very crucial shots at the line as well.
As if I don't know that. :oldlol:


I'd take the Dwight right now over Dirk right now not only because Dirk is older, I just feel Dwight is better. I feel that Dirk's offense has depleted slightly (even though it's still very good) and he has the added luxury of having playmaking PG's. Jameer is too much of a shooter, thus, leaving Dwight to have to get most of his shots on his own.
Well, you're entitled to your opinion and we won't find a consensus here. Yet what I don't get is how Dirk is supposed to have depleted offensively? :confusedshrug:

[Th3ShowMVP]

Hard to take an unclutch and unreliable guy over a clutch and somewhat reliable guy.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Yes, Conference Finals = Finals. :oldlol: Plus, Pippen already proved them all wrong with 6 rings, Howard? Zero. Robinson was easily better than Ewing, anybody who isn't from New York will tell you the same.

The point was, it was 2 free throws, that's it and Pippen hadn't proven them wrong by Howard's age(24). Give Dwight some time before calling him a choker.

[Sarcastic]

Dallas would trade away Nowitzki for Howard without even thinking twice.

[Th3ShowMVP]

The point was, it was 2 free throws, that's it and Pippen hadn't proven them wrong by Howard's age(24). Give Dwight some time before calling him a choker.
No, Dwight is a choker for now.

[zORi]

As if I don't know that. :oldlol:


Well, you're entitled to your opinion and we won't find a consensus here. Yet what I don't get is how Dirk is supposed to have depleted offensively? :confusedshrug:

You're right, we are both bound to disagree on that. No problem, though. I actually do like Dirk alot and would love to have him on my team.

[ShaqAttack3234]

No, Dwight is a choker for now.
:roll: Then what does that make Dirk? He hasn't led his team any farther than Dwight has and he's a 90% FT shooter who missed clutch free throws in the finals as well. That's more of a choke job than Dwight's misses because Dwight is a 59% FT shooter, you don't expect him to make free throws.

[Th3ShowMVP]

:roll: Then what does that make Dirk? He hasn't led his team any farther than Dwight has and he's a 90% FT shooter who missed clutch free throws in the finals as well. That's more of a choke job than Dwight's misses because Dwight is a 59% FT shooter, you don't expect him to make free throws.
Go look at Dirk's elimination games then Dwight's.

Thanks.

[Th3ShowMVP]

Dallas would trade away Nowitzki for Howard without even thinking twice.
link?

[necya]

this is a insult to dirk

agreed

[Th3ShowMVP]

Dirk is a legend, Dwight is just an all star.

Dirk >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dwight.
maybe a legend in Germany and in Dallas. But no-where else.

[Clifton]

I usually put Dwight over Dirk on lists (Dwight 4th-5th, Dirk 6th-8th depending on my mood) but I'm not so sure I should. The problem with Dwight is that he really isn't an impactful force on offense. He scores 20 points... I mean he can cause a stir... but his inability to handle defensive pressure is a big problem for him. His inability to pass out of a double team, his high turnovers, his mostly reactive offensive game, his terrible FT shooting are all huge problems.

Meanwhile Dirk despite being 7' is not an impactful defensive player. That too is a problem. Offensively he's the total package, one of the best offensive forces in the league. But brings you nothing other than requisite competence defensively. Intimidates no one. Rebounds pretty well but isn't what you'd call a beast on the boards.

So who do you go with? With Dirk your need is filled of a first option on offense who will draw fouls and who you can depend on in tough situations and who can create for others. With Dwight your need is filled - as well as it's ever been, with only a few exceptions - of a defensive anchor and rebounding force and cleanup artist in the paint. And he'll also score 20 points or more. Unless you send any kind of pressure his way.

I go with Dwight, I think, because what he brings is harder to find. Even with all Dirk does marvelously well, there are still like 3-4 guys I'd rather have be my first option, and several guys who are really close. Once you've got Dwight you can just fill in the blanks, easily. Joe Johnson is a good enough go-to guy to get you a title or close to it, if you've got a guy like Dwight in the paint. Hell, it's been done; they made the Finals with Hedo Turkoglu as the go-to player.

Dirk is a remarkable player but you just have to go with Dwight. Making a title contender with Dwight as your center is cookie-cutter obvious. Making one with Dirk is much harder.

[hookul]

I usually put Dwight over Dirk on lists (Dwight 4th-5th, Dirk 6th-8th depending on my mood) but I'm not so sure I should. The problem with Dwight is that he really isn't an impactful force on offense. He scores 20 points... I mean he can cause a stir... but his inability to handle defensive pressure is a big problem for him. His inability to pass out of a double team, his high turnovers, his mostly reactive offensive game, his terrible FT shooting are all huge problems.

Meanwhile Dirk despite being 7' is not an impactful defensive player. That too is a problem. Offensively he's the total package, one of the best offensive forces in the league. But brings you nothing other than requisite competence defensively. Intimidates no one. Rebounds pretty well but isn't what you'd call a beast on the boards.

So who do you go with? With Dirk your need is filled of a first option on offense who will draw fouls and who you can depend on in tough situations and who can create for others. With Dwight your need is filled - as well as it's ever been, with only a few exceptions - of a defensive anchor and rebounding force and cleanup artist in the paint. And he'll also score 20 points or more. Unless you send any kind of pressure his way.

I go with Dwight, I think, because what he brings is harder to find. Even with all Dirk does marvelously well, there are still like 3-4 guys I'd rather have be my first option, and several guys who are really close. Once you've got Dwight you can just fill in the blanks, easily. Joe Johnson is a good enough go-to guy to get you a title or close to it, if you've got a guy like Dwight in the paint. Hell, it's been done; they made the Finals with Hedo Turkoglu as the go-to player.

Dirk is a remarkable player but you just have to go with Dwight. Making a title contender with Dwight as your center is cookie-cutter obvious. Making one with Dirk is much harder.

I can understand your basic premise but this nugget does not make sense. Hell, Mavs made the finals with Diop as their starting center and defensive anchor. Surely a lot more impressive than making it to the finals with Turkoglu as their go-to player if you talk about filling out needs of a team.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I go with Dwight, I think, because what he brings is harder to find. Even with all Dirk does marvelously well, there are still like 3-4 guys I'd rather have be my first option, and several guys who are really close. Once you've got Dwight you can just fill in the blanks, easily. Joe Johnson is a good enough go-to guy to get you a title or close to it, if you've got a guy like Dwight in the paint. Hell, it's been done; they made the Finals with Hedo Turkoglu as the go-to player.

Hedo was not the go to guy offensively, Dwight was.

[lukekarts]

Dwight > Dirk and its not even close anymore.

Dirk is not a good enough defender or rebounder, even respective to his peers in the 'soft' PF position we have today (Boozer, Bosh etc).

Sure, he'll put up 25 points with ease; but he'll give up 25 points with ease. He's not proven he can do any more than Dwight, with a similar cast, and he's not helping his team in any other way but scoring.

Great offensive player, but not good enough all round to make me want to take him over by far the best Center in the league.

[TheAnchorman]

Hedo was not the go to guy offensively, Dwight was.
He probably meant during the clutch.

[ShaqAttack3234]

He probably meant during the clutch.

Well, in that case you could argue Rashard Lewis was as well. He was Orlando's 2nd best player when they went to the finals, IMO.

[jlauber]

Dirk's range and skill level are among the best ever by a seven-footer in NBA history. I have said it before, but Dirk and Gasol are two exceptionally gifted seven-footers on the offensive end.

Having said that, though, Nowitzki is not the defensive force or rebounder that Howard is. And, I am getting a little tired of reading about Howard's offensive limitations. He had a couple of huge games against the Celtics in the playoffs last year, which speaks volumes about his offensive ability. He is only 25, as well, so I suspect that he will get better. In any case, how can anyone argue with 18-20 ppg on 60% shooting?

Howard is a top-5 player. Give him Chris Paul and then see what kind of player he becomes.

[Andrei89]

Nowitzky no doubt

[Th3ShowMVP]

Hedo was not the go to guy offensively, Dwight was.
:roll:

[ShaqAttack3234]

:roll:

Regular Season-
Dwight Howard- 20.6 ppg, 13.8 rpg, 1.4 apg, 2.9 bpg, 1 spg, 3 TO, 57.2 FG%, 35.7 mpg, 12.4 FGA, 10.7 FTA
Rashard Lewis- 17.7 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 2.6 apg, 1 spg, 2.7 TO, 43.9 FG%, 39.7 3P%, 36.2 mpg, 13.8 FGA, 3.4 FTA
Hedo Turkoglu- 16.8 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 4.9 apg, 0.8 spg, 41.3 FG%, 35.6 3P%, 36.6 mpg, 13.3 FGA, 5.1 FTA

Playoffs-
Dwight Howard- 20.3 ppg, 15.3 rpg, 1.9 apg, 2.6 bpg, 0.9 spg, 2.9 TO, 60.1 FG%, 39.3 mpg, 11.7 FGA, 9.9 FTA
Rashard Lewis- 19 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 2.9 apg, 1 spg, 2.1 TO, 44.8 FG%, 39.4 3P%, 41.1 mpg, 14.5 FGA, 4.8 FTA
Hedo Turkoglu- 15.8 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 4.8 apg, 0.8 spg, 2.7 TO, 42.7 FG%, 38.6 3P%, 38.9 mpg, 12.3 FGA, 4.8 FTA

Hmmm, so Dwight outscored Hedo by about 4 ppg in the regular season and counting both FGA and FTA, he got more shot attempts than anyone on the team.

In the playoffs, he outscored Hedo by 4.5 ppg and again, counting FGA and FTA, he got more shot attempts than Hedo and about the same as Lewis.

So how was Hedo the go to guy? Dwight was clearly their best scorer, Lewis was 2nd and Hedo was 3rd. Though, because of Turk's playmaking you can make the argument that Hedo and Rashard were 2.A and 2.B offensively.

Now, Look at their 30+ point games.

Dwight
45
40*
39
36*
35
32
32
31*
31
30*
30
30
30

Lewis
34*
30

Turkoglu
35
33
31

*=playoff game

Hmm, so thirteen 30+ games, four in the playoffs, two 40+ point games, one of them in the playoffs, another 39 point game and five 35+ games total.

Needless to say, he wipes the floor with both Lewis and Turkoglu here.

Dwight= best offensive player on the 2009 Magic.

[Th3ShowMVP]

Regular Season-
Dwight Howard- 20.6 ppg, 13.8 rpg, 1.4 apg, 2.9 bpg, 1 spg, 3 TO, 57.2 FG%, 35.7 mpg, 12.4 FGA, 10.7 FTA
Rashard Lewis- 17.7 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 2.6 apg, 1 spg, 2.7 TO, 43.9 FG%, 39.7 3P%, 36.2 mpg, 13.8 FGA, 3.4 FTA
Hedo Turkoglu- 16.8 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 4.9 apg, 0.8 spg, 41.3 FG%, 35.6 3P%, 36.6 mpg, 13.3 FGA, 5.1 FTA

Playoffs-
Dwight Howard- 20.3 ppg, 15.3 rpg, 1.9 apg, 2.6 bpg, 0.9 spg, 2.9 TO, 60.1 FG%, 39.3 mpg, 11.7 FGA, 9.9 FTA
Rashard Lewis- 19 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 2.9 apg, 1 spg, 2.1 TO, 44.8 FG%, 39.4 3P%, 41.1 mpg, 14.5 FGA, 4.8 FTA
Hedo Turkoglu- 15.8 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 4.8 apg, 0.8 spg, 2.7 TO, 42.7 FG%, 38.6 3P%, 38.9 mpg, 12.3 FGA, 4.8 FTA

Hmmm, so Dwight outscored Hedo by about 4 ppg in the regular season and counting both FGA and FTA, he got more shot attempts than anyone on the team.

In the playoffs, he outscored Hedo by 4.5 ppg and again, counting FGA and FTA, he got more shot attempts than Hedo and about the same as Lewis.

So how was Hedo the go to guy? Dwight was clearly their best scorer, Lewis was 2nd and Hedo was 3rd. Though, because of Turk's playmaking you can make the argument that Hedo and Rashard were 2.A and 2.B offensively.

Now, Look at their 30+ point games.

Dwight
45
40*
39
36*
35
32
32
31*
31
30*
30
30
30

Lewis
34*
30

Turkoglu
35
33
31

*=playoff game

Hmm, so thirteen 30+ games, four in the playoffs, two 40+ point games, one of them in the playoffs, another 39 point game and five 35+ games total.

Needless to say, he wipes the floor with both Lewis and Turkoglu here.

Dwight= best offensive player on the 2009 Magic.
:roll: becuase that's the same as being the go-to player down the stretch. Dwight is the most unreliable player in the 4th.

With Hedo, Magic make it to the Finals. Without him, they don't. It's simple. Hedo is better than Carter and is the go-to guy offensively.

[ShaqAttack3234]

:roll: becuase that's the same as being the go-to player down the stretch. Dwight is the most unreliable player in the 4th.

With Hedo, Magic make it to the Finals. Without him, they don't. It's simple. Hedo is better than Carter and is the go-to guy offensively.

A game is more than 1 quarter, idiot.

And here are their clutch stats per 48 minutes in the playoffs

Howard- 24.2 ppg, 69.2 FG%
Turkoglu- 23.3 ppg, 36.7 FG%
Lewis- 23.9 ppg, 34.5 FG%

Anything else?

And talk about a double standard, how is Hedo better than Carter for simply not beating Boston when you claimed Boston would have swept Orlando with KG in 2009?

Just admit defeat on this one.

[Th3ShowMVP]

A game is more than 1 quarter, idiot.

And here are their clutch stats per 48 minutes in the playoffs

Howard- 24.2 ppg, 69.2 FG%
Turkoglu- 23.3 ppg, 36.7 FG%
Lewis- 23.9 ppg, 34.5 FG%

Anything else?

And talk about a double standard, how is Hedo better than Carter for simply not beating Boston when you claimed Boston would have swept Orlando with KG in 2009?

Just admit defeat on this one.
How about Dwight's FT%? :oldlol: especially against the Lakers in less than a minute?

[ShaqAttack3234]

How about Dwight's FT%? :oldlol: especially against the Lakers in less than a minute?

Hedo missed free throws in the 4th as well in that game and because Dwight's FG% was so much better, hedo and Rashard's FT% don't make up for it.

You're getting destroyed in this thread. I prove that Dwight was their best scorer and go to scorer throughout the season and playoffs, then you bring up clutch play and Dwight annihilated them there as far as scoring/efficiency and now you have basically nothing.

[SCdac]

Dwight had a few games of just 6 to 9 shot attempts in the 2009 Finals (games in which Lewis, Pietrus, etc, were shooting/scoring as much), which is far from what an elite post player should be taking. He gets to the line a lot, because teams send him to the line a lot, his FT shooting is horrible and it usually benefits to have him miss free throws than finish an easy dunk. Against the Celtics, he started to pick his game up toward the end of the series, but it was a bit late. 13 points (3/10 FG) in the first home game, and 7 points (3/10 FG) in the first game in Boston, are not impressive. You can't look at Dwight's game as if his best nights are the absolute norm, because he's young and still far from flawless. His game is largely (not solely) predicated on athleticism, finishing lobs and alley-oops, cleaning up put backs, catching the ball deep in the post taking a drop step and dunking, few hook shots here and there but not the cleanest or most accurate or most reliable. Former NBA player Mark Jackson said during that Magic-Celtics series, "the Magic are not going to win feeding the ball into the post/Dwight on every possession". It was obvious to those watching the games. He's not ready/equipped/savvy enough to be that kind of player yet. In this particular comparison, that's why I like the more experienced and battle-tested Dirk Nowitzki. The object of the game is to put the ball in the basket, and he does it well. He's used to having a high usage-%, in the 26-27% range, and used to taking 18 shots a game to lead his team offensively. Not only that, but he turns the ball over less (meaning less possessions for the other team), and averages nearly 26 points in the playoffs on great %'s. That isn't easy to come by either.

[MasterDurant24]

Dirk 100 times over.

[zORi]

Dwight had a few games of just 6 to 9 shot attempts in the 2009 Finals (games in which Lewis, Pietrus, etc, were shooting/scoring as much), which is far from what an elite post player should be taking. He gets to the line a lot, because teams send him to the line a lot, his FT shooting is horrible and it usually benefits to have him miss free throws than finish an easy dunk. Against the Celtics, he started to pick his game up toward the end of the series, but it was a bit late. 13 points (3/10 FG) in the first home game, and 7 points (3/10 FG) in the first game in Boston, are not impressive. You can't look at Dwight's game as if his best nights are the absolute norm, because he's young and still far from flawless. His game is largely (not solely) predicated on athleticism, finishing lobs and alley-oops, cleaning up put backs, catching the ball deep in the post taking a drop step and dunking, few hook shots here and there but not the cleanest or most accurate or most reliable. Former NBA player Mark Jackson said during that Magic-Celtics series, "the Magic are not going to win feeding the ball into the post/Dwight on every possession". It was obvious to those watching the games. He's not ready/equipped/savvy enough to be that kind of player yet. In this particular comparison, that's why I like the more experienced and battle-tested Dirk Nowitzki. The object of the game is to put the ball in the basket, and he does it well. He's used to having a high usage-%, in the 26-27% range, and used to taking 18 shots a game to lead his team offensively. Not only that, but he turns the ball over less (meaning less possessions for the other team), and averages nearly 26 points in the playoffs on great %'s. That isn't easy to come by either.

So blocks, rebounds, steals and all that don't matter? Just points?

Also, you have to factor in that Dwight is surrounded by people who mainly score, he's double teamed more often than Dirk, and he has no real playmaker on his team.

So would you take Durant over Dirk?
Also, Mark Jackson is a complete idiot. He also said LeBron should have been Finals MVP in '07 (despite not winning a single game), and that Kobe is better than Jordan.

[zORi]

How about Dwight's FT%? :oldlol: especially against the Lakers in less than a minute?

Just stop, man, it's over.

Go worry about Yao.

[SCdac]

So blocks, rebounds, steals and all that don't matter? Just points?

So would you take Durant over Dirk?
Also, Mark Jackson is a complete idiot. He also said LeBron should have been Finals MVP in '07 (despite not winning a single game), and that Kobe is better than Jordan.

I didn't say it didn't matter, but how do you win games? By which team had the most blocks? Is that the way games are decided? Hey, it's not like David Robinson was winning multiple championships on his own, or Ben Wallace, or Theo Ratliff, etc... and they blocked just as many shots as Howard... Listen I'm not saying I don't value defense as much as the next basketball enthusiast, it's an integral part of any successful team but come on, would a Perkins/Dirk front court be that much inferior to a Howard/Lewis frontcourt? Has Dwight's defense been so overwhelmingly strong that it takes his team to the Finals every year? Is there more to the game than defending?

My point is, individual defense isn't the end-all-be-all when it comes to player comparisons and evaluation. What about fouls and turnovers/blocks ratio? or how about minutes played because a player is in foul trouble? or what about a players ability to pass out of the low post (Dwight's is far from "elite" or "special")? I mean, would you take Dwight over Dirk, if he was scoring say 16 points per game? or 15 points per game?

As far as Durant vs. Dirk (for one season), I'm not sure about that one. The only reason I would take Durant over Dirk, is because it'd be easier to build around him as a traditional SF, and Durant I think will be an elite, superstar, kind of scorer. I think his game is impressive for his age, and if he can improve on defense he could eventually be one of the best players in the league. Durant has a high ceiling IMO.

[zORi]

I didn't say it didn't matter, but how do you win games? By which team had the most blocks? Is that the way games are decided? Hey, it's not like David Robinson was winning multiple championships on his own, or Ben Wallace, or Theo Ratliff, etc... and they blocked just as many shots as Howard... Listen I'm not saying I don't value defense as much as the next basketball enthusiast, it's an integral part of any successful team but come on, would a Perkins/Dirk front court be that much inferior to a Howard/Lewis frontcourt? Has Dwight's defense been so overwhelmingly strong that it takes his team to the Finals every year? Is there more to the game than defending?

My point is, individual defense isn't the end-all-be-all when it comes to player comparisons and evaluation. What about fouls and turnovers/blocks ratio? or how about minutes played because a player is in foul trouble? or what about a players ability to pass out of the low post (Dwight's is far from "elite" or "special")? I mean, would you take Dwight over Dirk, if he was scoring say 16 points per game? or 15 points per game?

As far as Durant vs. Dirk (for one season), I'm not sure about that one. The only reason I would take Durant over Dirk, is because it'd be easier to build around him as a traditional SF, and Durant I think will be an elite, superstar, kind of scorer. I think his game is impressive for his age, and if he can improve on defense he could eventually be one of the best players in the league. Durant has a high ceiling IMO.

Yeah, I'd still take Dwight. Put him on the Mavs, and you have a Finals team, at worst, WCFC runner up.

The thing about Dwight is that he is way above individual defense. Just watch any Magic game. Vince, Rashard, and Jameer, routinely get blown by, and Dwight has to pick up their slack and alter shots/block them. If he had a team that could actually stand man to man with other players, yes, his defense would be enough to win championships.

Dwight definitely is an underrated passer. Half the team's strategy relies on him getting doubled, kicking it out, and the ball swinging around the perimeter to the open man.

Dwight can get a lot of fouls, but he also draws plenty of them. Way more than he commits. And yeah, a Perkins/Dirk front court would be worse than a Howard/Lewis front court. Dirk would have to swing all the way out to the perimeter to guard Shard, and Perkins gets barely 10ppg (half that during the playoffs). People also over estimate how well he does on Dwight. Dwight has had 30+ppg on him on a few occasions.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Dwight had a few games of just 6 to 9 shot attempts in the 2009 Finals (games in which Lewis, Pietrus, etc, were shooting/scoring as much), which is far from what an elite post player should be taking. He gets to the line a lot, because teams send him to the line a lot, his FT shooting is horrible and it usually benefits to have him miss free throws than finish an easy dunk. Against the Celtics, he started to pick his game up toward the end of the series, but it was a bit late. 13 points (3/10 FG) in the first home game, and 7 points (3/10 FG) in the first game in Boston, are not impressive. You can't look at Dwight's game as if his best nights are the absolute norm, because he's young and still far from flawless. His game is largely (not solely) predicated on athleticism, finishing lobs and alley-oops, cleaning up put backs, catching the ball deep in the post taking a drop step and dunking, few hook shots here and there but not the cleanest or most accurate or most reliable. Former NBA player Mark Jackson said during that Magic-Celtics series, "the Magic are not going to win feeding the ball into the post/Dwight on every possession". It was obvious to those watching the games. He's not ready/equipped/savvy enough to be that kind of player yet. In this particular comparison, that's why I like the more experienced and battle-tested Dirk Nowitzki. The object of the game is to put the ball in the basket, and he does it well. He's used to having a high usage-%, in the 26-27% range, and used to taking 18 shots a game to lead his team offensively. Not only that, but he turns the ball over less (meaning less possessions for the other team), and averages nearly 26 points in the playoffs on great %'s. That isn't easy to come by either.

I wasn't acting like Dwight's best nights were the norm, but as I showed on average, he was Orlando's top offensive player and go to guy and his big nights were far better than Turkoglu's or Lewis'. I'm not saying he's as good as Dirk offensively, but he was certainly the best on his own team in 2009.

Regarding the Celtics series, yeah, he did have 2 bad games offensively, actually 2 really bad games, but two 30+ point games on nearly 70% shooting as well as additional 28 and 21 point games prove that he can score against top defensive teams and post defenders. Granted, it was a case of too little, too late as you said. But the Magic also aren't very good at getting the ball to Dwight, part of this is because they have a 5'10" shoot first point guard who is a below average passer for his position.

Dwight's numbers are comparable to prime Alonzo Mourning in pretty much all categories

1993- 21 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 1 apg, 3.5 bpg, 0.3 spg, 3 TO, 51.1 FG%, 78.1 FT%, 14.3 FGA, 8.1 FTA, 3.7 PF, 3.4 ORB, 33.9 mpg, 78 games
1994- 21.5 ppg, 10.2 rpg, 1.4 apg, 3.1 bpg, 0.5 spg, 3.3 TO, 50.5 FG%, 76.2 FT%, 14.1 FGA, 9.5 FTA, 3.5 PF, 3 ORB, 33.6 mpg, 60 games
1995- 21.3 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 1.4 apg, 2.9 bpg, 0.6 spg, 3.1 TO, 51.9 FG%, 76.1 FT%, 14.3 FGA, 8.4 FTA, 3.6 PF, 2.6 ORB, 38.2 mpg, 77 games
1996- 23.2 ppg, 10.4 rpg, 2.3 apg, 2.7 bpg, 1 spg, 3.7 TO, 52.3 FG%, 68.5 FT%, 15.4 FGA, 10.2 FTA, 3.5 PF, 3.1 ORB, 38.2 mpg, 70 games
1997- 19.8 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 1.6 apg, 2.9 bpg, 0.8 spg, 3.4 TO, 53.4 FG%, 64.2 FT%, 13.4 FGA, 8.6 FTA, 4.1 PF, 2.9 ORB, 35.2 mpg, 66 games
1998- 19.2 ppg, 9.6 rpg, 0.9 apg, 2.2 bpg, 0.7 spg, 3.1 TO, 55.1 FG%, 66.5 FT%, 12.6 FGA, 8 FTA, 3.6 PF, 3.3 ORB, 33.4 mpg, 58 games
1999- 20.1 ppg, 11 rpg, 1.6 apg, 3.9 bpg, 0.7 spg, 3 TO, 51.1 FG%, 65.2 FT%, 13.8 FGA, 9.2 FTA, 3.5 PF, 3.6 ORB, 38.1 mpg, 46 games
2000- 21.7 ppg, 9.5 rpg, 1.6 apg, 3.7 bpg, 0.5 spg, 2.7 TO, 55.1 FG%, 71.1 FT%, 15 FGA, 7.4 FTA, 3.9 PF, 2.7 ORB, 34.1 mpg, 79 games

Dwight's FGA/FTA combined in 2008 and 2009 were similar to many of Zo's prime seasons. Same with fouls, actually Zo had worse seasons as far as foul trouble, actually turnovers as well.

Of course, stats don't tell the whole story, offensively, Zo did have a mid-range jumper, a turnaround in the post and like Howard, a variety of hooks including the running hook and jump hook. Also like Howard, he drove to the basket a lot and drew a lot of fouls. He was a better free throw shooter, but he didn't have Howard's freakish athleticism which does help put points on the board. They're actually similar in size too. About 6'10" and 270 with great wingspans.

Both are/were great shot blockers, but foul prone for similar reasons. They went after almost every shot close to them. Zo had better timing, but Dwight is a better leaper.

I was actually disappointed in Dwight this season. He regressed from last year. His scoring dropped(though his efficiency went up), he wasn't quite as dominant on the glass, he was more foul prone and more turnover prone.

In 2009, he easily had his best season to date. His scoring average was the same as the previous season and his FG% dropped, but watching the games, he looked a lot better in the post, I could never figure it out until I saw how many more baskets he was assisted on in the 2008 season than 2009. He dominated the offensive boards as well and he took the next step defensively. His moves were simple, but I thought he had more confidence too. The running hook seemed to be working for him, he was facing up and using his speed more and he was using both hands well, plus once in a while, you'd see a nice spin move from him.

People keep talking about what he needs to improve on and I'll make it simple. Avoid unnecessary fouls, stay patient and don't try to overpower players unless they're undersized, when he uses his speed and faces up, he's hard for anyone to stop and because of the threat of him getting to the basket, it gives him more space for his running hook.

Around midseason, i did see him making 12 foot bank shots for a short stretch, about 1 every game, maybe he had 2 in one game and I remember agreat sequence vs Dallas when he hit one vs Brendan Haywood and the next time, Haywood guarded him closer and Dwight faced him up and drove to the basket to draw the foul. Along with the other things I mentioned, if Dwight did that fairly consistently, he'd be deadly, but he abandoned that as the season went on.

Dwight shouldn't be picking up a lot of offensive fouls, he's not Shaq and he's not a true power center in that sense, I really don't think he's at his best backing down most players. Hopefully Olajuwon showed him some things earlier in the summer. Actually, people forget now, but Olajuwon also had problems with patience earlier in his career. He'd bite on almost any fake, he was turnover prone and foul prone, but he sorted those problems out later in his career and it made a huge difference.

Right, now, I think Dwight is very comparable to Alonzo Mourning, he doesn't appear as nasty on the court, but in terms of impact, effectiveness and accomplishments, he's right there, but I also think he can improve quite a bit.

If Dwight is on the floor for 40 mpg, look out.

[EarlTheGoat]

Its a close comparison, each of them live at complete opposite universes, they are very different type of players.

Nowitzki is the go to guy, he creates his own shot more often than not, clutch at end of games and very versatile on the floor, it makes him so hard to defend, he switches zone to mid-range like zig-zag, and shoots the 3pt from time to time, with great percentages.

I see Dwight Howard being the more valuable player, specially for teams built around defense, outside shooters and team-effort, like the Orlando Magic have been currently built since 2008. Dwight will never be the go to guy Dirk is, you cant give him the ball at the end of games or when things are not working to see if he creates his own buckets, he isnt that type of player. However, he is the better rebounder and the best defender in the league. People havent fully understood how valuable Dwight is on defense, they still get stucked at "blocks per game" :rolleyes: , but Dwight does much more than that, he intimidates, he forces players to shoot the mid-range not allowing great drivers to fully play their game. And while he isnt Ewing, Robinson or Hakeem at the offensive, he can get his buckets, he is around the 18-22 ppg range.

Dirk is the greater offensive player and the better passer, the go to guy type of forward. Dwight is the valuable center-piece, the "all-around help" to call it someway.

If I had to start my franchise from zero, I would take Dwight Howard, but this doesnt mean he is the better player.

[SCdac]

If he had a team that could actually stand man to man with other players, yes, his defense would be enough to win championships.

Eh, we can play that game all day. If Dirk had this, and this, and this, he'd probably win a championship too. His team has won more Finals games than Dwight's has, so one could argue he came closer to a championship than Howard ever has.


Dwight definitely is an underrated passer. Half the team's strategy relies on him getting doubled, kicking it out, and the ball swinging around the perimeter to the open man.

Well, as far as getting the Finals and winning it... it's not working.

He's got a career 1.5 assist average in the playoffs, in his last three playoff games he totaled 0 assists, and finished four PO games with just 1 assist. His court vision is not all that.

I can understand a statement of "Dwight's passing has improved since his rookie season"... but a "Dwight is definitely an underrated passer", I don't see that at all... Define "underrated", and what makes his passing skills, and vision out of the post so great.

If anything, the Magic play as much outside-inside than they do the other way around, they lead the league in 3 point shooting attempts last season, and nearly lead in the in the 2009 season. It opens up the paint. Have to think, by design, that helps Dwight's FG% and looks too, when Rashard Lewis and crew drag their men out to the three point line every game.

[Th3ShowMVP]

Hedo missed free throws in the 4th as well in that game and because Dwight's FG% was so much better, hedo and Rashard's FT% don't make up for it.

You're getting destroyed in this thread. I prove that Dwight was their best scorer and go to scorer throughout the season and playoffs, then you bring up clutch play and Dwight annihilated them there as far as scoring/efficiency and now you have basically nothing.
Nick Anderson. That's all.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Nick Anderson. That's all.

Not even comparable, kid. Anderson was a much better free throw shooter and he missed FOUR straight, NOT two.

[zORi]

Eh, we can play that game all day. If Dirk had this, and this, and this, he'd probably win a championship too. His team has won more Finals games than Dwight's has, so one could argue he came closer to a championship than Howard ever has.



Well, as far as getting the Finals and winning it... it's not working.

He's got a career 1.5 assist average in the playoffs, in his last three playoff games he totaled 0 assists, and finished four PO games with just 1 assist. His court vision is not all that.

I can understand a statement of "Dwight's passing has improved since his rookie season"... but a "Dwight is definitely an underrated passer", I don't see that at all... Define "underrated", and what makes his passing skills, and vision out of the post so great.

If anything, the Magic play as much outside-inside than they do the other way around, they lead the league in 3 point shooting attempts last season, and nearly lead in the in the 2009 season. It opens up the paint. Have to think, by design, that helps Dwight's FG% and looks too, when Rashard Lewis and crew drag their men out to the three point line every game.

On the other side, one could also say Dirk is more of a career choker than Dwight.

He's not a sensational passer, but people often come around here saying he is a bad passer, and that's just not true. Like I said, though, Orlando practices swinging the ball around the perimeter. It starts with Dwight, but someone else usually ends up with the assist.

Also, it got them to the Finals in '09.

[Th3ShowMVP]

Not even comparable, kid. Anderson was a much better free throw shooter and he missed FOUR straight, NOT two.
I have four words for you KID and a sign. Nick Anderson = Dwight Howard.

[SCdac]

I wasn't acting like Dwight's best nights were the norm, but as I showed on average, he was Orlando's top offensive player and go to guy and his big nights were far better than Turkoglu's or Lewis'. I'm not saying he's as good as Dirk offensively, but he was certainly the best on his own team in 2009.

Regarding the Celtics series, yeah, he did have 2 bad games offensively, actually 2 really bad games, but two 30+ point games on nearly 70% shooting as well as additional 28 and 21 point games prove that he can score against top defensive teams and post defenders. Granted, it was a case of too little, too late as you said. But the Magic also aren't very good at getting the ball to Dwight, part of this is because they have a 5'10" shoot first point guard who is a below average passer for his position.

Dwight's numbers are comparable to prime Alonzo Mourning in pretty much all categories

1993- 21 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 1 apg, 3.5 bpg, 0.3 spg, 3 TO, 51.1 FG%, 78.1 FT%, 14.3 FGA, 8.1 FTA, 3.7 PF, 3.4 ORB, 33.9 mpg, 78 games
1994- 21.5 ppg, 10.2 rpg, 1.4 apg, 3.1 bpg, 0.5 spg, 3.3 TO, 50.5 FG%, 76.2 FT%, 14.1 FGA, 9.5 FTA, 3.5 PF, 3 ORB, 33.6 mpg, 60 games
1995- 21.3 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 1.4 apg, 2.9 bpg, 0.6 spg, 3.1 TO, 51.9 FG%, 76.1 FT%, 14.3 FGA, 8.4 FTA, 3.6 PF, 2.6 ORB, 38.2 mpg, 77 games
1996- 23.2 ppg, 10.4 rpg, 2.3 apg, 2.7 bpg, 1 spg, 3.7 TO, 52.3 FG%, 68.5 FT%, 15.4 FGA, 10.2 FTA, 3.5 PF, 3.1 ORB, 38.2 mpg, 70 games
1997- 19.8 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 1.6 apg, 2.9 bpg, 0.8 spg, 3.4 TO, 53.4 FG%, 64.2 FT%, 13.4 FGA, 8.6 FTA, 4.1 PF, 2.9 ORB, 35.2 mpg, 66 games
1998- 19.2 ppg, 9.6 rpg, 0.9 apg, 2.2 bpg, 0.7 spg, 3.1 TO, 55.1 FG%, 66.5 FT%, 12.6 FGA, 8 FTA, 3.6 PF, 3.3 ORB, 33.4 mpg, 58 games
1999- 20.1 ppg, 11 rpg, 1.6 apg, 3.9 bpg, 0.7 spg, 3 TO, 51.1 FG%, 65.2 FT%, 13.8 FGA, 9.2 FTA, 3.5 PF, 3.6 ORB, 38.1 mpg, 46 games
2000- 21.7 ppg, 9.5 rpg, 1.6 apg, 3.7 bpg, 0.5 spg, 2.7 TO, 55.1 FG%, 71.1 FT%, 15 FGA, 7.4 FTA, 3.9 PF, 2.7 ORB, 34.1 mpg, 79 games

Dwight's FGA/FTA combined in 2008 and 2009 were similar to many of Zo's prime seasons. Same with fouls, actually Zo had worse seasons as far as foul trouble, actually turnovers as well.

Of course, stats don't tell the whole story, offensively, Zo did have a mid-range jumper, a turnaround in the post and like Howard, a variety of hooks including the running hook and jump hook. Also like Howard, he drove to the basket a lot and drew a lot of fouls. He was a better free throw shooter, but he didn't have Howard's freakish athleticism which does help put points on the board. They're actually similar in size too. About 6'10" and 270 with great wingspans.

Both are/were great shot blockers, but foul prone for similar reasons. They went after almost every shot close to them. Zo had better timing, but Dwight is a better leaper.

I was actually disappointed in Dwight this season. He regressed from last year. His scoring dropped(though his efficiency went up), he wasn't quite as dominant on the glass, he was more foul prone and more turnover prone.

In 2009, he easily had his best season to date. His scoring average was the same as the previous season and his FG% dropped, but watching the games, he looked a lot better in the post, I could never figure it out until I saw how many more baskets he was assisted on in the 2008 season than 2009. He dominated the offensive boards as well and he took the next step defensively. His moves were simple, but I thought he had more confidence too. The running hook seemed to be working for him, he was facing up and using his speed more and he was using both hands well, plus once in a while, you'd see a nice spin move from him.

People keep talking about what he needs to improve on and I'll make it simple. Avoid unnecessary fouls, stay patient and don't try to overpower players unless they're undersized, when he uses his speed and faces up, he's hard for anyone to stop and because of the threat of him getting to the basket, it gives him more space for his running hook.

Around midseason, i did see him making 12 foot bank shots for a short stretch, about 1 every game, maybe he had 2 in one game and I remember agreat sequence vs Dallas when he hit one vs Brendan Haywood and the next time, Haywood guarded him closer and Dwight faced him up and drove to the basket to draw the foul. Along with the other things I mentioned, if Dwight did that fairly consistently, he'd be deadly, but he abandoned that as the season went on.

Dwight shouldn't be picking up a lot of offensive fouls, he's not Shaq and he's not a true power center in that sense, I really don't think he's at his best backing down most players. Hopefully Olajuwon showed him some things earlier in the summer. Actually, people forget now, but Olajuwon also had problems with patience earlier in his career. He'd bite on almost any fake, he was turnover prone and foul prone, but he sorted those problems out later in his career and it made a huge difference.

Right, now, I think Dwight is very comparable to Alonzo Mourning, he doesn't appear as nasty on the court, but in terms of impact, effectiveness and accomplishments, he's right there, but I also think he can improve quite a bit.

If Dwight is on the floor for 40 mpg, look out.

That's a great, well thought out, post man.

I can see the similarities between Howard and Zo, though I think they're way different players at heart (sounds cliche, but I can't think of any other way to put it).

Dwight Howard ultimately did regress, and I know you know, because you made a thread about it closer to when the Magic were booted.

It feels like everybody just like's say "he can score in the 18-22" range because it sounds good, but nobody thinks about how he's scoring, how reliable it is, at what pace, how much it factors into their offense, etc. He's got career averages of 17.5 PPG, and 19.0 PPG in the playoffs. Not 20, not 21, not 22 PPG. Can he put up a 30 point game, or better? Definitely, Howard can. But so could prime Jermaine Oneal, or prime Elton Brand, and so many others. Doesn't mean they still didn't lack flaws here and there, like Howard does.

The fact is, Alonzo and Robinson didn't win rings until they were more of a role-player... I don't think it's out of the question to say the same could very well happen to Dwight Howard... And I don't mean that as a knock on him.

[creamanshrimp]

is this a serious thread? dwight isnt even on dirks level

[jlauber]

I think ShaqAttack has proven that Howard is a much better offensive player than he is generally given credit for. He may not be quite at Dirk's level...but then the rest of his game outshines Dirk's, too.

[ShaqAttack3234]

That's a great, well thought out, post man.

I can see the similarities between Howard and Zo, though I think they're way different players at heart (sounds cliche, but I can't think of any other way to put it).

Thank you and I agree which is why I mentioned their demeanor being different.


Dwight Howard ultimately did regress, and I know you know, because you made a thread about it closer to when the Magic were booted.

Yeah, I attribute that to a lack of focus. Actually, this is the biggest similarity between Shaq and Dwight. After 2-3 seasons, Shaq had been improving every year, but then he had seasons like '96 and '99 where he didn't even match his production from earlier years and it really wasn't until Phil Jackson took over that he took that next step at age 27/28. Though, I do think he was better in '98 than he had been in the Magic.

I mean that was around the time Shaq started filming all of those commercials and movies, recording rap albums ect. Remember, Dwight just filmed a movie, he's filming commercials ect.

But, Shaq could get by with less work than Dwight. He had an overwhelming size and strength advantage, much better footwork, passing skills and a softer touch on his jump hooks and one-handed jumpers.

regardless, the turning point in Shaq's career was 1999. Phil Jackson said before the season that Shaq was going to have to play the entire game(not literally) because they didn't have anyone behind him and Shaq played 40 mpg on a dominant 67-15 team and 43.5 mpg in the playoffs. Shaq also claimed that Phil said Shaq was going to have to make everyone better and he demanded that Shaq commit more to defense and rebounding which had been slipping since his 2nd or 3rd year in Orlando. Shaq also claimed that David Robinson winning in 1999 was motivation for him, he claimed Duncan winning had nothing to do with it, but I don't believe him. duncan was being called the best player in the NBA and the future of the league and I think that motivated Shaq as well.

Because I don't believe Dwight is one of those guys like Kobe who doesn't need to look for motivation, where will that motivation come from? We saw what motivated Shaq to take his game to the next level, but will dwight ever put the work in and focus enough to take that next step?

For one, I think it has to hit home to Dwight that playing 35 mpg in the playoffs is unacceptable. He's durable so there's no excuse for him not playing 40 mpg. He has to make a conscious effort to avoid dumb fouls throughout a game, which isn't to say be less aggressive defensively because that's part of his game, but the dumb offensive fouls and any little loose ball foul or unnecessary foul on a play he can't do anything on is what hurts him.

The other is, once again, play to his strengths. Run down court at every chance looking for better post position, granted he does this a fair amount and Orlando isn't great at getting him the ball, but crash the offensive glass like he did in '09, don't try to overpower players, be patient and let the game come to you. That will make him more consistent offensively and less foul prone.


It feels like everybody just like's say "he can score in the 18-22" range because it sounds good, but nobody thinks about how he's scoring, how reliable it is, at what pace, how much it factors into their offense, etc. He's got career averages of 17.5 PPG, and 19.0 PPG in the playoffs. Not 20, not 21, not 22 PPG. Can he put up a 30 point game, or better? Definitely, Howard can. But so could prime Jermaine Oneal, or prime Elton Brand, and so many others. Doesn't mean they still didn't lack flaws here and there, like Howard does.

Well, if we look at Dwight in his "superstar years"

Regular Season
2008- 20.7 ppg, 14.2 rpg, 1.3 apg, 2.2 bpg, 0.9 spg, 59.9 FG%, 59 FT%, 3.2 TO, 3.3 PF, 3.4 ORB, 37.7 mpg
2009- 20.6 ppg, 13.8 rpg, 1.4 apg, 2.9 bpg, 1 spg, 57.2 FG%, 59.4 FT%, 3 TO, 3.4 PF, 4.3 ORB, 35.7 mpg
2010- 18.3 ppg, 13.2 rpg, 1.8 apg, 2.8 bpg, 0.9 spg, 61.2 FG%, 59.2 FT%, 3.3 TO, 3.5 PF, 3.5 ORB, 34.7 mpg

Playoffs
2008- 18.9 ppg, 15.9 rpg, 0.9 apg, 3.4 bpg, 0.8 spg, 58.1 FG%, 54.2 FT%, 3.2 TO, 3.8 PF, 6 ORB, 42.1 mpg
2009- 20.3 ppg, 15.3 rpg, 1.9 apg, 2.6 bpg, 0.9 spg, 60.1 FG%, 63.6 FT%, 2.9 TO, 4.4 PF, 4.3 ORB, 39.3 mpg
2010- 18.1 ppg, 11.1 rpg, 1.4 apg, 3.5 bpg, 0.8 spg, 61.4 FG%, 51.9 FT%, 3.6 TO, 4.2 PF, 2.6 ORB, 35.5 mpg

So based on the regular season and playoffs the last 3 years, it's safe to call him an 18-21 ppg player.

Actually, what's so disappointing about last season is that prior to that, Dwight had improved every year. He improved in his second year, made the all-star team in his 3rd year and took another step forward, in fact, that's when I first took notice of Dwight, put up monster numbers in his 4th year and made that next jump to top 5 MVP candidate and arguably, super stardom.

But in his 5th year, that's when I became a fan. Again, despite his FG% falling off while scoring the same, I saw an improvement and later, when I found out that Dwight was assisted 66% of his baskets in 2008 compared to 51% in 2009, it made more sense. And he was averaging almost 1 more offensive rebound per game. In the playoffs, I saw some very positive things. His turnovers dropped slightly and his assist went up from the regular season while he was averaging 20/15 and I was noticing some improved passing and he shot 64% from the line in the playoffs.

Unfortunately, almost none of that carried over to the next season. While I think dwight could shoot 65-70% from the line based on potential, I just think mentally, he won't be able to do it. I think he'll be lucky to be in the 63-65% range.

As a passer? I just don't see him having the natural talent for it like Duncan or Shaq, is ceiling as a passer is Patrick Ewing IMO, who could make a nice pass, but always had trouble consistently passing out of double teams so he wasn't what you'd call a consistently good passer.

Offensively, he is not going to be a 25-30 ppg scorer either, but I think a difference between Jermaine O'Neal/Brand and Howard is that neither of those guys had the ability to get other teams in foul trouble the same way Howard does or shoot around 60%.

They were both more skilled, but one problem I always had with Jermaine was how much he settled for jumpers and his jumpshot was streaky, it made him very inefficient for a big man.

While Jermaine was closer, another difference as an overall player is, I don't think either were the game changers Howard is defensively. Jermaine especially was a very good defensive player, but I think howard is a step up.

Offensively, Howard isn't so rare, but I think it's the combination of being able to dominate a game defensively and average an efficient 20 ppg and get a team into foul trouble that makes him a special all around player.

Which is why I go back to the Alonzo Mourning comparison, offensively, he wasn't that rare either, but his defense was. And guys like Howard and Mourning seperate themselves from defensive specialists like Mutombo and Ben Wallace because they can average 20 unlike Mutombo and Big Ben.



The fact is, Alonzo and Robinson didn't win rings until they were more of a role-player... I don't think it's out of the question to say the same could very well happen to Dwight Howard... And I don't mean that as a knock on him.

Very possible, but at the same time, I do think he is the type of franchise player who you can build a championship team around. In 2009, they lost in the finals, partially because of experience. They gave away 2 games.

It's foolish to say any player will win a title, but Howard is one of the few players in the league who I can see a team building a consistent championship contender around.

I think just the fact that Howard is as comparable as he is to Mourning and can improve is something Orlando has to be happy with. Granted, mourning faced tougher competition in his prime at his position, but that's more relevant to all time rankings and irrelevant to how good of a chance Orlando has at building a championship team around him.

Actually, I saw/see more potential in a healthy Greg Oden as far as touch around the basket, size, strength and defensive instincts, but pretty soon I'm going to lose hope if he can't stay healthy.


I think ShaqAttack has proven that Howard is a much better offensive player than he is generally given credit for. He may not be quite at Dirk's level...but then the rest of his game outshines Dirk's, too.

thank you, i'm glad to see some people are willing to change their mind. As a fan who loved watching the great centers play, I root for Howard.

[Hawker]

Dirk does hit clutch shots, but Dwight can be more dominant than Dirk throughout an entire game and ensure the game's not so close as to require a clutch shot. Dwight can also much more easily prevent clutch baskets against his team. . .Dirk's an unreliable defender.

Dominating a game and winning by 8-9 points is better than winning by a point off of a late game shot when you weren't dominant enough to win by a comfortable margin, forcing the neccessity for clutch shots.

How is a win better than a win?

[Th3ShowMVP]

How is a win better than a win?
Until Dirk gets a superman cape, I guess Dwight is better by default.

[sayitaintso]

Both of them should play together.

Dirk > Rashard Lewis

Dwight + Dirk = better chance at a championship

[Th3ShowMVP]

thank you, i'm glad to see some people are willing to change their mind. As a fan who loved watching the great centers play, I root for Howard.
shocker. :oldlol:

[ShaqAttack3234]

shocker. :oldlol:

Um, why shouldn't I root for Howard? I didn't like Howard until 2009, but I, like many others complain about there not being enough good centers, so when comes along, why wouldn't I root for him? The same reason I'm hoping Greg Oden can stay healthy and reach his potential.

[Th3ShowMVP]

Um, why shouldn't I root for Howard? I didn't like Howard until 2009, but I, like many others complain about there not being enough good centers, so when comes along, why wouldn't I root for him? The same reason I'm hoping Greg Oden can stay healthy and reach his potential.
lol........but for the record, dirk>dwight.

[ShaqAttack3234]

lol........but for the record, dirk>dwight.

:oldlol:

For the record, Dwight>Yao.

[Th3ShowMVP]

:oldlol:

For the record, Dwight>Yao.
good point, but not when he's healthy.

[Andrei89]

good point, but not when he's healthy.


Dwight> Healthy Yao

[Snoop_Cat]

good point, but not when he's healthy.

Which is never, so by default Dwight > Yao

[ShaqAttack3234]

good point, but not when he's healthy.

Nope, regardless of whether he's healthy Yao is not what he was in 2007. We saw that in his last season(2009) when he played the entire regular season, yet was inferior to Dwight.

[1Time4YourMind]

Nope, regardless of whether he's healthy Yao is not what he was in 2007. We saw that in his last season(2009) when he played the entire regular season, yet was inferior to Dwight.
NO STOP ARGUING. Just put multiple facepalms, be secure in your knowledge that RG is an obsessive forum troll, and WALK AWAY.

[Th3ShowMVP]

Nope, regardless of whether he's healthy Yao is not what he was in 2007. We saw that in his last season(2009) when he played the entire regular season, yet was inferior to Dwight.
nah, when he's healthy he's better.

[Duderonomy]

dumb question. dirk cant bang with howard and dirk can make outside jumpers blind folded that howard cant make in practice with no one guarding him. thats about all you can say. both mean about the same to their teams success right now tho.

[EarlTheGoat]

Hey guys, just came in here to say:

Dwight > Yao



cya!!

[TROLL_HUNTER]

the lack of respect for Dirk is reaching otherworldly levels. Dwight has room for improvement but he seems to have stepped back lately, rather than getting better so time will tell but Today Dirk is the better player. some opinions are based on the fact that its more difficult to find an elite center than a PF / shooter of great level. but that is a different discussion. The thread is Dirk vs Howard, no other circumstances or teammates to be considered. Answer is Dirk, clearly

[DaniloGallinari]

LOL Whoever keeps saying Dwight>Dirk needs a doctor's appointment and maybe some sense beaten into them. Are you kidding me?

[tpols]

As far as impact on games dwight is every bit as good as dirk.

Dwight's athleticism>>>>Dirk's athleticism

Dirk's Skill>>>>Dwight's skill

[LMFAO]

Who's currently better? The Steroid Jocker or Dork NoRingSki?
if they are both offered to my team and I am the GM? D.Howard and its not even close. Its all about the future not the past.

[Th3ShowMVP]

if they are both offered to my team and I am the GM? D.Howard and its not even close. Its all about the future not the past.
LMFAO

[Go Getter]

What exactly has Dirk done that Dwight hasn't? Dirk in many more years in the league has played in 2 conference finals and one finals. Dwight has played in 2 conference finals and one finals already.

And both had great conference finals series and both had offensive series below their usual standard in the finals, except unlike Dirk, Dwight was impacting the game at the other end, averaged like 15 boards, had a record 9 blocks in game 4 and don't give me that crap about Dwight missing the free throws at the end of game 4 because Dirk missed critical free throws in the finals as well, the difference is that Dirk was a 90% FT shooter missing clutch free throws, Dwight isn't even a 60% FT shooter.

Turkoglu was the man on that team? :oldlol: You're a complete moron. Dwight was the leading scorer in the regular season and playoffs at 21 ppg on 57% in the season and 20 ppg on 60% in the playoffs. He averaged 26/13/3 in the conference finals and he had a 40/14/4 game to send Orlando to the finals. Turk shot what? 39% in the conference finals? Turk was the team's 3rd leading scorer in the regular season and playoffs. And who was getting other teams into foul trouble and demanding more double teams than anyone else on the team? Not Turk, but I'll give you a hint, he plays center.

And what's up with your hatred of Dwight Howard, RG? Did he **** your mom or something?

Give me Dwight over Dirk. Dirk might score an extra 5 ppg, but Dwight will get teams into more foul trouble and shooter a higher percentage, but the real difference is defense. Dwight will also grab an extra 5 rebounds per game, block more shots and change countless more shots in the paint.

Dwight is easily the more valuable player.
I agree with this man.

[Go Getter]

Lol@ people pointing out Dwight's offensive deficiencies and ignoring the fact that Dirk plays weaker than water and finishes with the power of a JV bench warmer.

He's seven feet with the coordination of a smaller man and has a deadly j.....I like that....but he should be going to the hole more and impacting the game in other ways than scoring.