Bill Russell Vertical Leap

[PHILA]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-f_gVh9h9Q

1:08 mark

"My vertical was I could get my eyes above the rim. When I jumped up straight I could get my eyes above the rim & I could touch the top of the backboard."

[plowking]

That's cool and all, but no, he couldn't.

[Durant35]

My Guestimate - 34"

[alexandreben]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-f_gVh9h9Q

1:08 mark

"My vertical was I could get my eyes above the rim. When I jumped up straight I could get my eyes above the rim & I could touch the top of the backboard."
:applause: good post, Abe, as usual:cheers:

[jlauber]

Of course, just as in the case of Chamberlain, since we don't have video footage of him with his eyes above the rim, or touching the top of the backboard (in which other players have said that both Russell and Wilt could do that), the pundits will not accept it. And, once again, both he and Wilt were high jumpers, as well as multi-track stars.

Russell actually was a world-class high-jumper (ranked 7th in the world in 1956.) However, Wilt probably had an edge in actual height reached, since he was about 4-5 inches taller, and had a 92" wingspan. Russell obviously had better technique in the highjump, though.

Hopefully the NBA will release more vintage games, and perhaps we will get a better idea of just how accomplished these two great athletes were.

Regarding the 13 ft. level (the top of the backboard), Vince Carter's high was reportedly 12' 6" (as was Shaq's BTW.) I believe David Thompson and MJ were around that level, as well. I have not seen what Howard's has been, but he dunked on an 11' 6" rim (Chamberlain reportedly routinely dunked on a 12 ft rim.)

[plowking]

So we're supposed to believe, Russell could touch higher than Shaq, who at his pre draft measurements recorded a higher vertical than Wade's, Kobe's and Hardaway's...
So, Shaq, who's had a higher vertical than all the wingmen he's played with, somehow couldn't touch higher than Russell. Though because Russell said it, we should believe it?

[jlauber]

So we're supposed to believe, Russell could touch higher than Shaq, who at his pre draft measurements recorded a higher vertical than Wade's, Kobe's and Hardaway's...
So, Shaq, who's had a higher vertical than all the wingmen he's played with, somehow couldn't touch higher than Russell. Though because Russell said it, we should believe it?

How many high-jump titles did Shaq win in college, and where was he ranked in the world?

[plowking]

How many high-jump titles did Shaq win in college, and where was he ranked in the world?

Let's have a look.

The high jump average has increased by over a foot since Shaq's day and Russell's...

So there goes that theory...

[jlauber]

Let's have a look.

The high jump average has increased by over a foot since Shaq's day and Russell's...

So there goes that theory...

Russell and Wilt were long jumpers too. Since 1968 how much longer is the long jump record? 2" ...yes 2 ".

AND, give Wilt and Russell all the benefits of modern rechnology, training (technique), equipment (shoes and surface), nutrition, and medicine...and how much higher would they have jumped?

[plowking]

Russell and Wilt were long jumpers too. Since 1968 how much longer is the long jump record? 2" ...yes 2 ".

AND, give Wilt and Russell all the benefits of modern rechnology, training (technique), equipment (shoes and surface), nutrition, and medicine...and how much higher would they have jumped?

We're not talking about that though.

From this thread, its saying Bill Russell in his day could reach higher than Shaq in his day. That's just false.

[jlauber]

There are numerous reports of Wilt dunking on a 12 ft rim...that was, not coincidently, set up by his coach during his tenure at Kansas. AND, the NCAA and NBA banned the dunking of FT's because Chamberlain was reportedly capable of accomplishing that feat with a start just inside the top half of the FT circle.

[jlauber]

We're not talking about that though.

From this thread, its saying Bill Russell in his day could reach higher than Shaq in his day. That's just false.

Of course you KNOW that to be a FACT....

[jlauber]

Incidently, Wilt's college coach stated that had Chamberlain dedicated himself to the high-jump, that he would have probably cleared 7-0. Is that difficult to believe? Take a look at the footage that is available...Chamberlain's techinque was AWFUL. While most high-jumpers were getting a runnung start, Wilt would take 2-3 steps. Wilt was involved in WAY too many track events to excel and any one of them. He was a sprinter of the KU 4x100 team, he was a 440, 880, shot-putter, long jumper, triple jumper, and a champion high jumper. Some believed that he would have been an Olympic Decathalete. All of this while being the most dominant basketball player that college had ever seen.

[plowking]

Of course you KNOW that to be a FACT....

I do.

Shaq is 7'1, Russell was 6'9. Let's say, for the sake of this argument, that since Shaq's highest touch was 9'5, Russell's would according be 9'1. Shaq with a 36 inch vertical jump could reach 12'5...
So what you want me to believe is, Russell could essentially jump 48 inches?

So... that would put him with a higher vertical than, MJ, Vince Carter, Julius Erving, Dominique Wilkins, Spud Webb, Nate Robinson.

Am I missing something, or am I the only one that doesn't see the insane explosiveness as I did with the other players mentioned?

[jlauber]

I do.

Shaq is 7'1, Russell was 6'9. Let's say, for the sake of this argument, that since Shaq's highest touch was 9'5, Russell's would according be 9'1. Shaq with a 36 inch vertical jump could reach 12'5...
So what you want me to believe is, Russell could essentially jump 48 inches?

So... that would put him with a higher vertical than, MJ, Vince Carter, Julius Erving, Dominique Wilkins, Spud Webb, Nate Robinson.

Am I missing something, or am I the only one that doesn't see the insane explosiveness as I did with the other players mentioned?

NONE of those guys mentioned were high jump champs in college were they (or world ranked)? And PLEASE...Nate Robinson and Spud Webb outjumping Russell??? LOL!

[PHILA]

Toldeo Blade - Nov 28, 1956 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=340UAAAAIBAJ&sjid=wAAEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7302,4611332&dq)

'It seems Wilt has an unorthodox method of shooting free throws. The big guy takes aim at the basket from several feet behind the line. Then he takes about three giant steps, leaves his feet before reaching the line, and stuffs the ball through the hoop.

Under the old rule, it was perfectly legal as Wilt never touched the floor before letting go of the ball. In addition his percentage was fantastic.

"Why, he would have had a free throw percentage of 100," said [Tex] Winter. "He never missed."

Incidentally the rules committee did not mention Chamberlain by name as a reason for the change. The rule change was made, according to the committee, "to prevent freak activity."'



Mar 24, 1956 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=mjQaAAAAIBAJ&sjid=ByYEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7154,1845932&dq)

'The proposed new rule hits at such towering performers as San Francisco's Bill Russell and Wilt (The Stilt) Chamberlain of Kansas.'

[jlauber]

Toldeo Blade - Nov 28, 1956 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=340UAAAAIBAJ&sjid=wAAEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7302,4611332&dq)

'It seems Wilt has an unorthodox method of shooting free throws. The big guy takes aim at the basket from several feet behind the line. Then he takes about three giant steps, leaves his feet before reaching the line, and stuffs the ball through the hoop.

Under the old rule, it was perfectly legal as Wilt never touched the floor before letting go of the ball. In addition his percentage was fantastic.

"Why, he would have had a free throw percentage of 100," said [Tex] Winter. "He never missed."

Incidentally the rules committee did not mention Chamberlain by name as a reason for the change. The rule change was made, according to the committee, "to prevent freak activity."'



Mar 24, 1956 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=mjQaAAAAIBAJ&sjid=ByYEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7154,1845932&dq)

'The proposed new rule hits at such towering performers as San Francisco's Bill Russell and Wilt (The Stilt) Chamberlain of Kansas.'


:applause:

[plowking]

NONE of those guys mentioned were high jump champs in college were they (or world ranked)? And PLEASE...Nate Robinson and Spud Webb outjumping Russell??? LOL!

I never said anything about reach for them, I said how high they could jump. You want me to believe Russell can get higher off the ground than Spud and Nate.

You don't even know what you're arguing for.

EDIT: Once again, it has nothing to do with what they were in high school, or college. Who cares if they did high jump or not, the high jump average has increased drastically.
It's like comparing the amount of money the richest people in the 1800's had compared to now.

[jlauber]

I never said anything about reach for them, I said how high they could jump. You want me to believe Russell can get higher off the ground than Spud and Nate.

You don't even know what you're arguing for.

EDIT: Once again, it has nothing to do with what they were in high school, or college. Who cares if they did high jump or not, the high jump average has increased drastically.
It's like comparing the amount of money the richest people in the 1800's had compared to now.

Fosbury pioneered the TECHNIQUE which is used now, BTW.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fosbury_Flop

"The Fosbury Flop is a style used in the athletics event of high jump. It was popularized and perfected by American athlete Dick Fosbury, whose gold medal in the 1968 Summer Olympics brought it to the world's attention. Over the next few years the flop became the dominant style of the event and remains so today. Before Fosbury, most elite jumpers used the Straddle technique, Western Roll, Eastern cut-off or even Scissors-Jump to clear the bar. Given that landing surfaces had previously been sandpits or low piles of matting, high jumpers of earlier years had to land on their feet or at least land carefully to prevent injury. With the advent of deep foam matting high jumpers were able to be more adventurous in their landing styles and hence experiment with styles of jumping and giving jumpers about 25% higher jumps."

[jlauber]

The fastest NFL player EVER? Bob Hayes, an HOFer, who ran a 10.0 100meters. And I would take Deion, Bo, or Darrell Green, in theri primes, in a 40 yard sprint over Chris Johnson, as well.

Longest HR hitter? Not Barry Bonds, whose longest (and PED aided) was 490 feet. Mickey Mantle...all 5-11, 180 lbs. And he hit MANY verifiable 500+ ft HRs. In fact, he coined the term "tape measure."

[jlauber]

We have EYE-WITNESS accounts of Wilt touching the top of the backboard. We have rules that were put in place to prevent the dunking of FTs...because of Wilt (and Russell.) We have a 12 ft rim set up during the Chamberlain era, and reports of him dunking on it.

We also KNOW that Wilt and Russell were high jump CHAMPS (and in Russell's case...ranked 7th in the WORLD.) BOTH were involved in MULTIPLE track events, as well.

Hell, Wilt was DOMINATING the NBA in BLOCKED SHOTS at age 36, with a surgically repaired knee, and at over 300 lbs. What was the man doing at age 25, at 275 lbs., and on two healthy legs?

[PHILA]

A magnificent putback slam on Chamberlain in the Finals :applause:

(1:06 mark)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLkRxVFT5tQ




A tremendous leap on a block attempt from Russell. And an even more incredible shot from Big O.

(5:34 mark)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oe3zWQqV554



http://i26.tinypic.com/ek54pc.png

http://i30.tinypic.com/dzez4p.png

http://i26.tinypic.com/2qxp0dz.png






Bill Russell comments on this psychological game with the Big O entering his zone in a pick/roll situation.

(5:50 mark)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-f_gVh9h9Q

[DC Zephyrs]

Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain never touched the top of the backboard.

[alexandreben]

Red Auerbach was so angrey about Wilt's "goal tending", hence, the rule changes...
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1876&dat=19610108&id=7jIsAAAAIBAJ&sjid=uMsEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5584,1235523

[alexandreben]

Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain never touched the top of the backboard.
This reminds me the logic that "if the husband washes dishes but the wife doesn't see it, it never happens":roll:

[jlauber]

Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain never touched the top of the backboard.

Sonny Hill would argue with you on that.

Incidently, Wilt never scored 100 pts in a game, or grabbed 55 rebounds in a game, or averaged 50 ppg over a season, or 40 ppg over seven seasons...combined, or had 55 of the 61 40-30 games in NBA history, or averaged 27 rpg over the course of a season, or 32 of the 62 60+ pt games in NBA history, or shot .727 from the field (or .683), or made 35 straight FGAs, or had a recorded game with 23 blocks, or had a game in which the scorekeeper lost track of his blocks at 25, or led the league in assists, or had a 20-20-20 game, or a 24-32-13-12 playoff game, or ....

When someone here posts an actual attempt by Wilt, to touch the top of the backboard, and he didn't make it...I'll go with what was widely regarded as gospel by the NBA back in the 70's...

[Kblaze8855]

That's cool and all, but no, he couldn't.

I dont think you have one bit of evidence saying he cant...other than you not thinking he could. Is it an impossibly high jump? No. Travis Outlaw is shorter than Russell and ive seen him riiiiiiight there just short of the top of the backboard in the one attempt ive seen him make to get there.

And I think we often forget something on these things. We are talking about 1955 or so. All NBA rims/boackboards were not the same until well into the 60s. They were pretty close but there are stories of coaches having them tested all the time because they looked off. They didnt have the same accuracy they do now. And thats in the NBA. You think every middle school, high school, college, and playground backboard met current NBA regulation height? I dont.

If at some point in their lives they ran into a goal that would have them only need to go up...46 inches or so? I have no problems accepting that legit world class high jumpers could do it. I dont think so many people are just fabricating it.

Besides its a 48 inch jump for most bigmen and its not like there arent guys known to get that high. NBA.com listen Mcdyess one step vertical at 47 inches for years due to a test a lot of people are supposed to have watched. And even with every moment of his career on high quality tape ive never seen him get nearly that high. I doubt ive seen him get 40 inches in a game.

Doesnt mean he never did. Legit proven world class high jumpers getting into the upper 40s is not one bit shocking to me even if its 1955. The foot difference in the high jump isnt due to evolution asm uch as how they teach them to jump. Ive seen Russell jump forward and clear like 6'8''. You will never see anyone jumping like that these days because you just dont jump as high. Guys Bill jumped with and against beating at times reached 7 feet and up as time went.

Touching the top of the backboard is no doubt often a myth but there are some easier to believe than others. A 215-220(entering the NBA he was skinny) 6'10.5'' in shoes world class high jumper with long arms?

Ive only seen like 3 people attempt it on film. And 2 of them(Outlaw and James white) were almost there and both were shorter than Bill. Am I to believe that they got the highest in world history in the 4 total attempts I saw them make?

Of course not. And if I assume someone got higher...why wouldnt I assume someone bigger than them who was the #2 ranked high jumper in America wasnt one of them 1-2 times? Or that he never ran into a backboard 2 inches off in a gym in Alabama working out?

I dont think ill just assume hes lying because I didnt see it. World class 6-10 and 7-1 high jumpers should be on the short list of people given the benefit of the doubt if there are a gang of people saying they could reach heights that are well within the human potential to reach.

[ShaqAttack3234]

:oldlol: OK, so athletes have regressed since the 60's. Yeah....the centers have that era could jump higher than the 5'6"-5'8" dunk champs like Spud Webb and Nate Robinson.

[nosurrender]

why is this story so unbelievable? f'in joe alexander can kiss the rim and then some. Give him longer arms and the extra 6 inches for wilt, and really it's not that much of a fantasy

[OneMoreSucka]

I dont think you have one bit of evidence saying he cant...other than you not thinking he could. Is it an impossibly high jump? No. Travis Outlaw is shorter than Russell and ive seen him riiiiiiight there just short of the top of the backboard in the one attempt ive seen him make to get there.

And I think we often forget something on these things. We are talking about 1955 or so. All NBA rims/boackboards were not the same until well into the 60s. They were pretty close but there are stories of coaches having them tested all the time because they looked off. They didnt have the same accuracy they do now. And thats in the NBA. You think every middle school, high school, college, and playground backboard met current NBA regulation height? I dont.

If at some point in their lives they ran into a goal that would have them only need to go up...46 inches or so? I have no problems accepting that legit world class high jumpers could do it. I dont think so many people are just fabricating it.

Besides its a 48 inch jump for most bigmen and its not like there arent guys known to get that high. NBA.com listen Mcdyess one step vertical at 47 inches for years due to a test a lot of people are supposed to have watched. And even with every moment of his career on high quality tape ive never seen him get nearly that high. I doubt ive seen him get 40 inches in a game.

Doesnt mean he never did. Legit proven world class high jumpers getting into the upper 40s is not one bit shocking to me even if its 1955. The foot difference in the high jump isnt due to evolution asm uch as how they teach them to jump. Ive seen Russell jump forward and clear like 6'8''. You will never see anyone jumping like that these days because you just dont jump as high. Guys Bill jumped with and against beating at times reached 7 feet and up as time went.

Touching the top of the backboard is no doubt often a myth but there are some easier to believe than others. A 215-220(entering the NBA he was skinny) 6'10.5'' in shoes world class high jumper with long arms?

Ive only seen like 3 people attempt it on film. And 2 of them(Outlaw and James white) were almost there and both were shorter than Bill. Am I to believe that they got the highest in world history in the 4 total attempts I saw them make?

Of course not. And if I assume someone got higher...why wouldnt I assume someone bigger than them who was the #2 ranked high jumper in America wasnt one of them 1-2 times? Or that he never ran into a backboard 2 inches off in a gym in Alabama working out?

I dont think ill just assume hes lying because I didnt see it. World class 6-10 and 7-1 high jumpers should be on the short list of people given the benefit of the doubt if there are a gang of people saying they could reach heights that are well within the human potential to reach.
Jesus christ, the guy types one sentence and you come back with a ****ing novel. Get over yourself. You're going to take RUSSELL's word for it when he's speaking about himself? His ego is as big as anybodies, of course he's going to embellish to get his point across.

[NuggetsFan]

I think it's just one of those things that get's exaggerated with time. It's hard to believe something without proof but I guess you can't completely right off all of it. Some of the things said are clear bullshit tho.

[MMKM]

Ok, well if you just look at factual data, the highest measurement EVER on official record for the NBA Pre-Draft dating back to 1989 is 12'5 by Shaquille O'Neal. So that is the standing record for the last 20 + years. (Also, keep in mind that the talent pool for the NBA has grown exponentially in this time period as players are brought in from all over the world). So in a globalized game, over the last 20 years, 12'5 is the official record.

Touching 13 feet would beat that record by about 5%. That sounds possible for one blessed individual who only comes around every 100 years
, but the problem is, TOO MANY legends claim to have hit that mark. Everyone has heard the story about David Thompson "making change" on top of the backboard, and Earl "The Goat" Manigault at Rucker Park, so including Wilt and Russell that would put 4 players at the 13 foot mark in the 1960's. So either the human race is regressing over the last 20 years, or the backboard is higher than it used to be, or the legends are just flat out liars, but it just doesn't add up. To claim that that many people hit a mark that is drastically higher than the highest mark officially recorded is a false claim in terms of statistical probabilities it is close to impossible.

[MMKM]

Plus, if any of these guys actually COULD touch the top of the backboard, shouldn't there be some sort of concrete evidence (and I don't mean eyewitness accounts, if we went off eyewitness accounts, Bigfoot would exist, Jesus's face would be popping up on everything, etc, I'm talking about real hard evidence). Not one photograph? Video tape? I've seen video tape of Wilt since he was in high school, so video DID exist. If any of these guys could actually do it, don't you think someone at some point would have said, "hey, nobody's gonna believe this we need to get this on camera?" Just a little hard to swallow.

[Papaya Petee]

PlowKing destroying them.

[Papaya Petee]

Yeah guys, Oscar Robertson could touch the top of the backboard with his elbow. He's from the old days. He even said he could.

[jlauber]

:oldlol: OK, so athletes have regressed since the 60's. Yeah....the centers have that era could jump higher than the 5'6"-5'8" dunk champs like Spud Webb and Nate Robinson.

Let me ask you this...how many Shaq's have we seen in the NBA since 1993? And, how many centers today are more physically blessed than Shaq, say in 2000?

Of course the answer is, there has only been ONE Shaq. Same applies with Wilt. There has NEVER been a seven-footer so blessed with speed and leaping ability as Chamberlain. The man was a sprinter and a high jump champ (among his MANY track events) for cryingoutloud!

KBlaze had some great comments, but let me expand one of them...

Wilt played with and against MANY NBA players. He played with several NBA coaches, and against MANY. There were MANY in the media who covered him. Now, not all of them cared for Wilt. YET, find me ONE that has stepped up and said that Wilt was not capable of virtually everything he has been given credit for.

I only read those several anti-Wilt posters here, who go out of their way to disparage his accomplishments. They simply can't believe that ONE man could DOMINATE an ENTIRE league, the way that Wilt did. I have read a ridiculous comment that Wilt played on a losing team, that only won 31 games, and they essentially blamed WILT! YET, did that poster acknowledge these facts: Wilt led the NBA in scoring at 44.8 ppg. He led the league in rebounding at 24.6. He set a then record for FG% at .528 (in a league that shot .441) He also led the league in Win Shares. AND, he recorded the HIGHEST PER in NBA HISTORY. Not only that, but the rest of teammates, arguably the absolute worst cast of clowns ever assembled, shot a collective .412 from the field...which was WAY below the last place team at .427.

These anti-Chamberlain posters rip him for leading the league in assists. They rip him for "only" two titles (despite him narrowly missing FIVE more.) They slap him for his stats because of era or competition, but they never acknlowedge that it was ONLY Wilt set those records. They won't acknowledge him not only outplaying virtually EVERY opposing center, or downright DOMINATING them...a list that includes Kerr, Lovelette, Reed, Bellamy, Thurmond, Hayes, Unseld, Cowens, Lanier, Lucas, Russell AND Kareem.

They won't accept that HE shattered all kinds of records when HE played...and NO ONE has come CLOSE since.

They can't believe that a 7-1 man with a 7-8 wingspan, and who was a highjump champ, as well as a competitve long jumper, would have a 48" vertical, even though the world record is 61". Instead they find some completely false article which claimed that Wilt had a 24" vertical (which Psileas ripped to shreds BTW.)

They can't believe that a 7-1 man could bench press 500 lbs, even though there are numerous articles that credit him with MORE.

No, we are not supposed to believe all of that despite the fact that there are SO MANY amazing physical feats of his PLASTERED all over the internet...AND, virtually NO respected player, coach, or writer who actually WITNESSED Chamberlain, has ever DISPUTED them.

[jlauber]

Plus, if any of these guys actually COULD touch the top of the backboard, shouldn't there be some sort of concrete evidence (and I don't mean eyewitness accounts, if we went off eyewitness accounts, Bigfoot would exist, Jesus's face would be popping up on everything, etc, I'm talking about real hard evidence). Not one photograph? Video tape? I've seen video tape of Wilt since he was in high school, so video DID exist. If any of these guys could actually do it, don't you think someone at some point would have said, "hey, nobody's gonna believe this we need to get this on camera?" Just a little hard to swallow.

And conversley, find me ONE in which he ATTEMPTED to touch the top of the backboard, and couldn't.

Furthermore, as I alluded to above, find me ONE respected player, coach, or member of the media, who actually WITNESSED Wilt play, that has DISPUTED that he DID touch the top of the backboard.

[jlauber]

:oldlol: OK, so athletes have regressed since the 60's. Yeah....the centers have that era could jump higher than the 5'6"-5'8" dunk champs like Spud Webb and Nate Robinson.

Incidently Calvin Murphy, back in the 60's was dunking at 5-8.

http://apse.dallasnews.com/contest1999/writing/100-250.hartford2.html

[Kblaze8855]

Jesus christ, the guy types one sentence and you come back with a ****ing novel. Get over yourself. You're going to take RUSSELL's word for it when he's speaking about himself? His ego is as big as anybodies, of course he's going to embellish to get his point across.

Oh yes because when its someone else saying they saw things that makes them believed. Ive seen Oscar robertson and another guy both claim the ysaw Wilt do a dunk he called the Hammer and Nails before a game as a Globetrotter. Tuck the ball under his armpit and punch it through with his other hand. 2 people said it. Neither of them Wilt. You believe it? I doubt it. because the source matters less than the story and how possible it is.

And I dont struggle to believe that 2 guys near(one above) 7 feet with long arms...one a legit world class high jumper the other an NCAA champ high jumper...can get up there. Especially not in the 50s before all backboards were regulated. I dont know if he means the backboard at Boston garden or a backboard on a playground in San Francisco. I dont have enough information. I can only go off what ive seen.

And ive SEEN Travis outlaw and James White inches from the top...both of them shorter than the people in question and neither of them the best off 2 feet. Ive seen a guy online in a red football jersey doing a vertical test(you know..jump up and smack the bars) next to a backboard get his hand right under the top. And he damn sure wasnt 7'1''. Ive seen Michael Wilson and Dwight dunk on 12+ foot goals with room to spare. Not jumping their highest. Jumping to catch a ball.

What evidence do I have that two super tall and lanky high jump champs couldnt do on backboards I didnt see when ive seen 2 people smaller than them get within an few inches of it....on goals I know were legit?

There are more issues than if they are just lying or not. There is evidence of people jumping high enough to do it. Of people at or near their height jumping the height to do it(Mcdyess....Dwight...Larry Nance..Josh Smith). Why should I believe a guy is lying about it when he was 6'10'' long armed and a world class olympic team spot offered HIGH JUMPER?

Do I believe Outlaw and James White jumped the highest anyone on earth near their size ever have? No.

Do I have evidence in the least to support that Russell couldnt get the 3-4 more inches he would need to get there? No.

Forgive me for explaining myself instead of just saying "Lol, no he cant!" based on the nothing any of you have to prove he couldnt.

I just say its possible and leave open the possibility it wasnt on a regulation backboard.

That is perfectly reasonable to me.

[jlauber]

One more time...

the fastest NFL football EVER? Bob Hayes, who was playing in the 60's. Now, some will argue that he ran a 10.0 100 meters, and the world record is by Huissein Bolt at 9.59 (incidently, it is impossible for a 6-5 man to run a 9.59, right?) HOWEVER, I can guarantee you that had Hayes had the same surface, same type of shoes, and the same training, that he would have run much faster than a 10.0.

Has anyone duplicated Mantle's verifiable HR distances?

http://www.themick.com/10homers.html

Nolan Ryan was clocked at 101 MPH with a SLOW gun in 1974, after having thrown 162 pitches. Slow gun you ask?

http://www.efastball.com/baseball/stats/fastest-pitch-speed-in-major-leagues/

Speaking of long jumps...Bob Beamon hit 29' 2" in 1968. The world record TODAY stands at 29' 4".

[Court Vision]

I always forget, Wilt could bench press 650 pounds without warming up and Russell could dunk on a 15 foot hoop.

:rolleyes:

I always take these stories with a grain of salt.

[rfoster24]

So we're supposed to believe, Russell could touch higher than Shaq, who at his pre draft measurements recorded a higher vertical than Wade's, Kobe's and Hardaway's...
So, Shaq, who's had a higher vertical than all the wingmen he's played with, somehow couldn't touch higher than Russell. Though because Russell said it, we should believe it?

If you mean by a higher vertical than all of those guys a lower vertical than all of those guys, then yes he had a higher vertical than all of those guys.

Chacha don't lie my *****.

www.chacha.com/question/how-high-is-shaq's-vertical

Shaq 32"
Kobe 38"
Wade 36"
Penny Hardaway. couldn't find.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Let me ask you this...how many Shaq's have we seen in the NBA since 1993? And, how many centers today are more physically blessed than Shaq, say in 2000?

Of course the answer is, there has only been ONE Shaq. Same applies with Wilt. There has NEVER been a seven-footer so blessed with speed and leaping ability as Chamberlain. The man was a sprinter and a high jump champ (among his MANY track events) for cryingoutloud!

KBlaze had some great comments, but let me expand one of them...

Wilt played with and against MANY NBA players. He played with several NBA coaches, and against MANY. There were MANY in the media who covered him. Now, not all of them cared for Wilt. YET, find me ONE that has stepped up and said that Wilt was not capable of virtually everything he has been given credit for.

I only read those several anti-Wilt posters here, who go out of their way to disparage his accomplishments. They simply can't believe that ONE man could DOMINATE an ENTIRE league, the way that Wilt did. I have read a ridiculous comment that Wilt played on a losing team, that only won 31 games, and they essentially blamed WILT! YET, did that poster acknowledge these facts: Wilt led the NBA in scoring at 44.8 ppg. He led the league in rebounding at 24.6. He set a then record for FG% at .528 (in a league that shot .441) He also led the league in Win Shares. AND, he recorded the HIGHEST PER in NBA HISTORY. Not only that, but the rest of teammates, arguably the absolute worst cast of clowns ever assembled, shot a collective .412 from the field...which was WAY below the last place team at .427.

These anti-Chamberlain posters rip him for leading the league in assists. They rip him for "only" two titles (despite him narrowly missing FIVE more.) They slap him for his stats because of era or competition, but they never acknlowedge that it was ONLY Wilt set those records. They won't acknowledge him not only outplaying virtually EVERY opposing center, or downright DOMINATING them...a list that includes Kerr, Lovelette, Reed, Bellamy, Thurmond, Hayes, Unseld, Cowens, Lanier, Lucas, Russell AND Kareem.

They won't accept that HE shattered all kinds of records when HE played...and NO ONE has come CLOSE since.

They can't believe that a 7-1 man with a 7-8 wingspan, and who was a highjump champ, as well as a competitve long jumper, would have a 48" vertical, even though the world record is 61". Instead they find some completely false article which claimed that Wilt had a 24" vertical (which Psileas ripped to shreds BTW.)

They can't believe that a 7-1 man could bench press 500 lbs, even though there are numerous articles that credit him with MORE.

No, we are not supposed to believe all of that despite the fact that there are SO MANY amazing physical feats of his PLASTERED all over the internet...AND, virtually NO respected player, coach, or writer who actually WITNESSED Chamberlain, has ever DISPUTED them.

The problem is, we have literally no footage to support any of these claims so we must take them with a grain of salt.

The difference with Shaq is that his vertical was officially recorded at the draft camp and we have footage like this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26oszd3z9Ns#t=0m34s where his head is damn close to the rim off a standing jump and freakish plays like this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoEWO5ypOPM

Or a 28 year old, 340 pound Shaq(who I don't think could jump as high as the 20 year old slimmer version) getting his head at or near rim level. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EefJHAWigvY#t=6m11s I mean his shoulder is more than halfway up the net!

But the highest I've seen a center jump is Dwight Howard who had his standing reach measured at 9'3.5" and he touched 12'6" on live TV and who knows if that's his max? That means he has a minimum 38.5" vertical.

But it's not just once in a decade athletes. If we believe the stories about Wilt, Russell, Gus Johnson, Earl Manigault, Connie Hawkins ect. then those would be the 5 most athletic basketball players ever, all having played 40+ years ago and nobody since then has come close to their claimed or rumored athletic feats, none of which are officially documented on film or in the record book(no I'm not talking about Wilt's stats, I'm referring to his vertical).

[jlauber]

The problem is, we have literally no footage to support any of these claims so we must take them with a grain of salt.

The difference with Shaq is that his vertical was officially recorded at the draft camp and we have footage like this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26oszd3z9Ns#t=0m34s where his head is damn close to the rim off a standing jump and freakish plays like this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoEWO5ypOPM

Or a 28 year old, 340 pound Shaq(who I don't think could jump as high as the 20 year old slimmer version) getting his head at or near rim level. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EefJHAWigvY#t=6m11s I mean his shoulder is more than halfway up the net!

But the highest I've seen a center jump is Dwight Howard who had his standing reach measured at 9'3.5" and he touched 12'6" on live TV and who knows if that's his max? That means he has a minimum 38.5" vertical.

But it's not just once in a decade athletes. If we believe the stories about Wilt, Russell, Gus Johnson, Earl Manigault, Connie Hawkins ect. then those would be the 5 most athletic basketball players ever, all having played 40+ years ago and nobody since then has come close to their claimed or rumored athletic feats, none of which are officially documented on film or in the record book(no I'm not talking about Wilt's stats, I'm referring to his vertical).

I can't speak for some of those guys. David Thompson reportedly hit 12' 6" I believe, which is completely possible, since we have athletes' today hitting 50+" verticals. BUT, it was common knowledge in the NBA in the Chamberlain era that he was capable of touching the top of the backboard (and with Russell's WORLD-CLASS leaping ability...probably him as well.) What amazes me are those that DON'T believe it. A 7-1 ATHLETE, with a 7-8 wingspan, who was only a few inches off the WORLD RECORD at the time, and who was also a LONG JUMPER and a SPRINTER...touching the top of the backboard was almost a certainty. I think the real question would be...just how much HIGHER he could get?

I actually marvel at his shot-blocking footage, in which he approaches 12 ft, with a standing vertical, at over 300 lbs, at age 34, and on a surgically repaired knee. One only need the several block of Kareem's sky-hook (of which he blocked 15 just in the '72 WCF's.) Incidently, there are photos of both Kareem and Gilmore, in college, with their heads at rim height...AND yet Chamberlain routinely outjumped both...and at 11+ years older.

Once again...he was perhaps the strongest man to ever play in the NBA (and clearly, had he had all the benefits of today's generation, he would have been even stronger.) He was certainly regarded almost universally as the strongest man in the NBA when he played. Not only that, but there were some promient sports luminaries who claimed he was among the strongest men in the world at the time. You have read Cherry's book...he interviewed a well-known power-lifter that was known to have been benched over 500 lbs...and that guy claimed that Wilt was the strongest man he knew. I have given an eye-witness account of Wilt benching 465 lbs at age 59! There is a now well-known SI article in 1964 with Wilt benching over 400 lbs...easily. And that was long before he hit his peak.

Speed? He outran the fastest Kansas City running back in a tryout in the mid-60's. In his own book, he claims to have outraced Jim Brown, TWICE, at a party with several witnesses. Brown was a 9.6 100 yard dasher. Alex Hannum claims that Wilt was quicker, end-to-end on a basketball court, than Al Attles (and later Hal Greer.) He was near world-class in the 440.

Leaping ability? Well, you have read all the numbers and quotes. I found it fascinating that he outleaped all of the '74 Conquistadors to get a ball lodged up high in a guidewire. He was in a suit-and-tie, and was 37 years old. There is a photo in his first book in which his waist is at the top of a volleyball net...some 8 ft. And remember, Wilt was a PART-TIME track star. His own coach believed that he was capable of a 7-0 high-jump had he focused on that sport. Needless to say, IMHO, no other NBA player has ever reached the height that Wilt did.

Not only all of that, but Wilt gets accused of "embellishing"...yet, the vast majority of his staggering physical feats are told by many others. And one more time...of all of the many basketball players, coaches, and members of the media that actually witnessed Chamberlain's incredible feats...where are those that dispute them?

[jlauber]

Ultimately, Wilt, among other's proves that the best athletes, in their respective sports, are not necessarily TODAY's athletes.

I have mentioned it before, but is there anyone today, who was more dominant than Shaq in 2000? Anyone more dominant than MJ in 1990? Anyone better today than Hakeem in 1995?

So, continuing those points...Kareem in '72, or Wilt in '67. BOTH, in their PRIMES, ... IMHO, would be the best TODAY, as well.

[chips93]

nba players are pridefull guys, if one of them could do it, i think they would have told the world by now, if shaq could do it, we would definetly know about it already

[plowking]

If you mean by a higher vertical than all of those guys a lower vertical than all of those guys, then yes he had a higher vertical than all of those guys.

Chacha don't lie my *****.

www.chacha.com/question/how-high-is-shaq's-vertical

Shaq 32"
Kobe 38"
Wade 36"
Penny Hardaway. couldn't find.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

You're using some site no one has ever heard of...

I'm using official NBA pre draft records. Shaq has a 36 inch vertical, and Wade's isn't 36. :oldlol:

[plowking]

I dont think you have one bit of evidence saying he cant...other than you not thinking he could. Is it an impossibly high jump?

How much do you love yourself? Seriously?

I don't have a bit of evidence? Where's Russell's?

"Uh... yeah, I could touch it"...

Well shit, so can I. No evidence saying I can't.

Travis Outlaw is 6'9, the same height as Russell, and James White is 6'8, an inch shorter. James White, the highest jumper in basketball we've ever seen, with a full run up cannot touch the top of the backboard. Keep in mind, the guy has a bigger wingspan than MJ, and it'd probably put him at around the same standing reach as Bill Russell. But no, Russell from the 60's could get that top of the backboard, especially by "standing straight underneath the ring and jumping"...

If you're confused as to whether he was talking about regulation backboards, forget about it, use the "eyes over the ring" account. No way in hell, nor is he even close.

[Kblaze8855]

Russell was listed 6'9'' or 10 and was measured barefoot as everyone was then. He would probably be called 6'11'' the way they do it now. In shoes hes 6'11'' or 10. which wouldnt matter if we are talking real heights but we are talking distance to something so it does. And at his height hes only 39 inches from headlevel which is not an amazingly high jump for anyone with his athletic background. Plenty of guys have one step verticals in that range. Including guys roughly his size like Josh Smith(6'9'' isnt he? Or 10?), mcdyess, and marcus haislip. Perhaps Howard. Its hard to call BS on that one to me. 39 inches wouldnt be the highest id seen someone jump in person. They were nowhere near his size....but ive see na jump that high. Its rare. Its not superhuman. For a highjumper no less?

And you asking me for evidence to disprove things nobody has any evidence of aside from eye witnesses...and everyone who saw the things in question(especially wilt ones) are called liars.


And James white isnt the highest jumper ive seen. Hes the best one footed leaper ive seen when lends itself to distance not vertical in a basketball sense. He was a good high jumper I believe but nobody is saying he cant jump. Im saying hes shorter than Russell and ive seen him damn close. Same for outlaw. I dont think its absurd to say someone 6'10'' or more in shoes who is an olympic level high jumper can get a few inches over Travis Outlaw or touch the top of a backboard we have no evidence was regulation or not.

Just seem odd for the first assumption to be that hes lying.....when hes saying something totally possible.

We arent talking about Earl the Goat who was like 6'2'' or 3 being said to win a bet by taking a dollar off the backboard. We would be talking a vertical well into a 50s or something. Which again..is not impossible. But its hard to assume it was done.

Russell? wilt? Guys the size they were with olympic/ncaa champ level high jumping backgrounds?

We are talking about something outside the realm of possibility and there is just no evidence to suggest it isnt true.

And if you said you had done it...and I had proof you were near 7 feet tall, long armed, and you qualified for the olympic team as a high jumper...

I wouldnt call BS then either.

If you said you were 5'10''....id need to see some footage.

[ShaqAttack3234]

How much do you love yourself? Seriously?

I don't have a bit of evidence? Where's Russell's?

"Uh... yeah, I could touch it"...

Well shit, so can I. No evidence saying I can't.

Travis Outlaw is 6'9, the same height as Russell, and James White is 6'8, an inch shorter. James White, the highest jumper in basketball we've ever seen, with a full run up cannot touch the top of the backboard. Keep in mind, the guy has a bigger wingspan than MJ, and it'd probably put him at around the same standing reach as Bill Russell. But no, Russell from the 60's could get that top of the backboard, especially by "standing straight underneath the ring and jumping"...

If you're confused as to whether he was talking about regulation backboards, forget about it, use the "eyes over the ring" account. No way in hell, nor is he even close.

Thank you, this is much more logical than most of the posts.

Why is it that NONE of the athletes in the NBA in the last 40 years can do it, yet there are claims of 4-5 players from the 60's doing it and people believe it?

The burden of proof is not on us to prove they can't, if you claim you can do something you better have some evidence.

I've seen Dwight touch 12'6", that's still 6 inches short.

[L.Kizzle]

Thank you, this is much more logical than most of the posts.

Why is it that NONE of the athletes in the NBA in the last 40 years can do it, yet there are claims of 4-5 players from the 60's doing it and people believe it?

The burden of proof is not on us to prove they can't, if you claim you can do something you better have some evidence.

I've seen Dwight touch 12'6", that's still 6 inches short.
Russ body fram was more of Larry Nance type than Dwight, and Nance can get pretty damn close.

[jlauber]

Thank you, this is much more logical than most of the posts.

Why is it that NONE of the athletes in the NBA in the last 40 years can do it, yet there are claims of 4-5 players from the 60's doing it and people believe it?

The burden of proof is not on us to prove they can't, if you claim you can do something you better have some evidence.

I've seen Dwight touch 12'6", that's still 6 inches short.


That's NONSENSE and you KNOW it. There is very little footage available on Wilt nor Russell. If we had to have VIDEO proof, then 99% of written history would be worthless.

I'm sure Russell was capable of 13 ft. A WORLD-CLASS high jumper. And we have RESPECTED EYE-WITNESS accounts of Chamberlain doing it. We also have RULES put in place to PREVENT what was COMMONLY accepted...that Wilt could dunk FTs. AND, we have a 12 ft rim in at the SAME university that Chamberlain attended, at the SAME time he was there. I won't bother looking it up, now, but either Psileas or Abe posted a link to a story written by the Kansas newspaper stating that Wilt was dunking on it back then, too.

The burden of proof is on those that would question what is written in the sport's history books...and PLASTERED everywhere on the internet. Where are all those that actually witnessed Wilt (and Russell) who would DISPUTE what is commonly accepted?

[ShaqAttack3234]

That's NONSENSE and you KNOW it. There is very little footage available on Wilt nor Russell. If we had to have VIDEO proof, then 99% of written history would be worthless.

I'm sure Russell was capable of 13 ft. A WORLD-CLASS high jumper. And we have RESPECTED EYE-WITNESS accounts of Chamberlain doing it. We also have RULES put in place to PREVENT what was COMMONLY accepted...that Wilt could dunk FTs. AND, we have a 12 ft rim in at the SAME university that Chamberlain attended, at the SAME time he was there. I won't bother looking it up, now, but either Psileas or Abe posted a link to a story written by the Kansas newspaper stating that Wilt was dunking on it back then, too.

The burden of proof is on those that would question what is written in the sport's history books...and PLASTERED everywhere on the internet. Where are all those that actually witnessed Wilt (and Russell) who would DISPUTE what is commonly accepted?

No it's not nonsense. I'm not going to believe something that sounds ridiculous and there's no PROOF to back it up. Stories are exaggerated, particularly when there's no way to disprove them, just like fishing stories.

Why should I believe that Wilt, Russell, Gus Johnson and Connie Hawkins are the 4 most athletic players ever and they all played 40+ years ago? That sounds pretty ridiculous.

If these stories were true, those players would be FAR bigger freaks of nature than Jordan, Dr. J, Dominique, Lebron, David Robinson, Shaq, Dwight Howard, Vince Carter ect.

And Wilt's college coach set up the 12 foot rim because the coach wanted the league to make that the standard. Wilt was the one who claims he could dunk on it, he didn't set up the 12 foot rim for Wilt.

[Th3ShowMVP]

Well Russell is the greatest center of all-time, maybe behind Kareem. But definitely Top 3 and ahead of Shaq.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Well Russell is the greatest center of all-time, maybe behind Kareem. But definitely Top 3 and ahead of Shaq.

:oldlol: Will you ever quit with this agenda to just disagree with everything I say? Half of your posts now aren't even relevant to the topic like this one.

[Scoooter]

I'm surprised no one ever talks about David Robinson doing or trying this. He always seemed capable of something like that.

[jlauber]

You want Wilt "myths?"

Wilt was a loser. ONE losing season, and in that season he had arguably the greatest individual season in NBA HISTORY. He played in 13 playoffs. He went to 12 Conference Finals. He went to SIX Finals. In FIVE of his post-seasons, his teams lost a game seven...four of them by NINE points...COMBINED. He played on Six 50 win teams. He played on FOUR 60 win teams. And he anchored perhaps the two greatest teams in NBA history, and led them to two titles.

Wilt was a choker. He was NEVER outplayed in the post-season by ANY opposing center. Yes, the great Russell occasionally outplayed him in individual games, but not in entire series. He faced a HOF center in 112 of 160 post-season games, and either outplayed them or dominated them in the vast majority. He was NEVER outrebounded in ONE post-season series...not ONE...and against the likes of Russell, Thurmond, and Kareem. He was only outshot in ONE, and that was by a slim margin (and his opposing center missed some 100 shots more than he did.) If anything Wilt played BRILLIANTLY in the vast majority of his post-seasons.

Russell "owned" Wilt. Completely false. Chamberlain outscored Russell in 132 of their 142 H2H games. Wilt had FIVE games of 50+ against Russell (including a high game of 62.) Wilt held a 24-0 edge in 40+ point games. Russell scored 30+ points against Wilt THREE times (with a high of 37.) However, Wilt outscored Russell in each of those three games. Wilt held a 92-42-8 edge in H2H rebounding. Chamberlain not only outscored Russell in EVERY post-season series, he also outrebounded Russell in EVERY post-season series. Wilt held a 7-1 edge in 40+ rebound games, which included a 55 rebound game (BTW, Russell's high against Wilt was an even 40.) Chamberlain even set a playoff record of 41...against Russell. He also held a staggering 23-4 edge in 35+ rebound games. In terms of shooting, in the games that we actually have a percentage, Wilt holds a commanding edge. In my research, I would estimate that Wilt shot better than 50% against Russell in his career...and that Russell may not have shot much better than 40% against Wilt (several post-season below 40% BTW.) I have posted some 40 games in which Wilt just CRUSHED Russell. There were very few games where Russell even had a marginal statistical edge over Wilt.

Wilt was a selfish "stats padder." Yes, Wilt was proud of his stats. BUT, look at how many times in his career that he changed his game for the so-called benefit of the team (even when his sacrifice resulted in a playoff loss...ala the '68-69 Finals.) Had Wilt been totally interested in scoring, you can bet that MJ would be looking at a career deficit of over 5 ppg to Wilt, maybe more.

All Wilt did was dunk on helpless 6-6 uncoordinated, wimpy, white centers, and that he had no offensive skills. First of all, Wilt faced TWELVE HOF centers in his career (and 70% of his playoff games were against them.) I have named them all before, so I won't bother now...but in any case, he either outplayed, or crushed, them all. As far as his skills..no less than the legendary Red Holzman made the comment that when Wilt entered the NBA he had a good outside shot. Of course, there is VIDEO footage which CONFIRMS that on Youtube. Wilt had 15+ ft range with both a jump shot, and a bank shot. He also had a sweeping hook, and a myriad of post moves that included his deadly finger-roll. Of course, the BURDEN of PROOF now rests on those pundits to PROVE that Wilt did NOT have those skills. Good luck with that...

Those are the REAL myths...not these RIDICULOUS assaults on what has been COMMON KNOWLEDGE...that Wilt was easily touching the top pf backboards, and bench-pressing 500+ lbs.

[ShaqAttack3234]

You want Wilt "myths?"

Wilt was a loser. ONE losing season, and in that season he had arguably the greatest individual season in NBA HISTORY. He played in 13 playoffs. He went to 12 Conference Finals. He went to SIX Finals. In FIVE of his post-seasons, his teams lost a game seven...four of them by NINE points...COMBINED. He played on Six 50 win teams. He played on FOUR 60 win teams. And he anchored perhaps the two greatest teams in NBA history, and led them to two titles.

Wilt was a choker. He was NEVER outplayed in the post-season by ANY opposing center. Yes, the great Russell occasionally outplayed him in individual games, but not in entire series. He faced a HOF center in 112 of 160 post-season games, and either outplayed them or dominated them in the vast majority. He was NEVER outrebounded in ONE post-season series...not ONE...and against the likes of Russell, Thurmond, and Kareem. He was only outshot in ONE, and that was by a slim margin (and his opposing center missed some 100 shots more than he did.) If anything Wilt played BRILLIANTLY in the vast majority of his post-seasons.

Russell "owned" Wilt. Completely false. Chamberlain outscored Russell in 132 of their 142 H2H games. Wilt had FIVE games of 50+ against Russell (including a high game of 62.) Wilt held a 24-0 edge in 40+ point games. Russell scored 30+ points against Wilt THREE times (with a high of 37.) However, Wilt outscored Russell in each of those three games. Wilt held a 92-42-8 edge in H2H rebounding. Chamberlain not only outscored Russell in EVERY post-season series, he also outrebounded Russell in EVERY post-season series. Wilt held a 7-1 edge in 40+ rebound games, which included a 55 rebound game (BTW, Russell's high against Wilt was an even 40.) Chamberlain even set a playoff record of 41...against Russell. He also held a staggering 23-4 edge in 35+ rebound games. In terms of shooting, in the games that we actually have a percentage, Wilt holds a commanding edge. In my research, I would estimate that Wilt shot better than 50% against Russell in his career...and that Russell may not have shot much better than 40% against Wilt (several post-season below 40% BTW.) I have posted some 40 games in which Wilt just CRUSHED Russell. There were very few games where Russell even had a marginal statistical edge over Wilt.

Wilt was a selfish "stats padder." Yes, Wilt was proud of his stats. BUT, look at how many times in his career that he changed his game for the so-called benefit of the team (even when his sacrifice resulted in a playoff loss...ala the '68-69 Finals.) Had Wilt been totally interested in scoring, you can bet that MJ would be looking at a career deficit of over 5 ppg to Wilt, maybe more.

All Wilt did was dunk on helpless 6-6 uncoordinated, wimpy, white centers, and that he had no offensive skills. First of all, Wilt faced TWELVE HOF centers in his career (and 70% of his playoff games were against them.) I have named them all before, so I won't bother now...but in any case, he either outplayed, or crushed, them all. As far as his skills..no less than the legendary Red Holzman made the comment that when Wilt entered the NBA he had a good outside shot. Of course, there is VIDEO footage which CONFIRMS that on Youtube. Wilt had 15+ ft range with both a jump shot, and a bank shot. He also had a sweeping hook, and a myriad of post moves that included his deadly finger-roll. Of course, the BURDEN of PROOF now rests on those pundits to PROVE that Wilt did NOT have those skills. Good luck with that...

Those are the REAL myths...not these RIDICULOUS assaults on what has been COMMON KNOWLEDGE...that Wilt was easily touching the top pf backboards, and bench-pressing 500+ lbs.

How are the first 5 paragraphs relevant to this thread and how is the ridiculous 500+ pound bench press claim relevant?

[plowking]

Sure there are plenty of accounts of Wilt and Russell doing things. Like fighting mountain lions with his bare hands or making change at the top of the backboard, sleeping with 20,000 women, could have beat up world champion and top 5 boxer of all time Muhammad Ali and that Ali was in fact scared of him lol...

I guess we should believe all these because of accounts from the past...

[plowking]

Oh, here is a fun fact as well.

James White, who's only an inch or two shorter than Bill Russell recorded a jump 8 inches higher than Russels best, can't touch the backboard, though Russell can.

Amazing.

There we go. Case closed. Stop posting Kblaze, jlauber and PHILA you look stupid. More stupid than usual.

[jlauber]

Sure there are plenty of accounts of Wilt and Russell doing things. Like fighting mountain lions with his bare hands or making change at the top of the backboard, sleeping with 20,000 women, could have beat up world champion and top 5 boxer of all time Muhammad Ali and that Ali was in fact scared of him lol...

I guess we should believe all these because of accounts from the past...

Regarding the mountain lion story, I believe Psileas addressed that. It was entirely possible. Touching the top of the backboard...several eye-witness accounts, including the legendary Sonny Hill. Sleeping with 20,000 women? That number did not actually come from Wilt, although he admitted it. It came from a friend who owned a hotel in Hawaii. In a ten day stay, he counted 23 different women going to Wilt's room. Wilt was around 50 at the time. 2x365= approx 700 x 30 years = approx 20,000. In any case, there are many that would confirm that Chamberlain had a TON of women in his life. Of that there is no dispute. Incidently, he did regret making that "20,000 women" comment. As for fighting Ali. Yes, TWO LEGITIMATE offers. You care to dispute that?

[Scoooter]

Mountain lions are notorious p******. Berating them verbally is often all that is needed. I once made one cry by calling him a f**.

[jlauber]

Oh, here is a fun fact as well.

James White, who's only an inch or two shorter than Bill Russell recorded a jump 8 inches higher than Russels best, can't touch the backboard, though Russell can.

Amazing.

There we go. Case closed. Stop posting Kblaze, jlauber and PHILA you look stupid. More stupid than usual.

ONCE AGAIN....TECHNIQUE you IDIOT! Remember the "Fosbury Flop" that I posted in response to one of your many stupid posts in this thread??????
And White was 6-7 BTW.

[jlauber]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fosbury_Flop

"The Fosbury Flop is a style used in the athletics event of high jump. It was popularized and perfected by American athlete Dick Fosbury, whose gold medal in the 1968 Summer Olympics brought it to the world's attention. Over the next few years the flop became the dominant style of the event and remains so today. Before Fosbury, most elite jumpers used the Straddle technique, Western Roll, Eastern cut-off or even Scissors-Jump to clear the bar. Given that landing surfaces had previously been sandpits or low piles of matting, high jumpers of earlier years had to land on their feet or at least land carefully to prevent injury. With the advent of deep foam matting high jumpers were able to be more adventurous in their landing styles and hence experiment with styles of jumping and giving jumpers about 25% higher jumps."

[PHILA]

'Rumor has it that Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, who was 7 feet 2 inches without shoes, and over 7 foot 3 with shoes, once stood next to Bill Russell, holding a basketball. He then looked at Bill and said, "Hey, can you touch the ball without standing on your toes?" He then held the ball as high up above his head as he could, asking Bill to try to touch the ball without standing on his toes, and which point Bill walked over, and standing completely flatfooted, stretched on of his arms up as high as he could... and placed the palm of his hand over the TOP of the basketball (which Kareem's hand was underneath).'

[PHILA]

'Russell has only a 7'4" wingspan. As for his standing reach, its undetermined. There was however this 7'3" white dude named Swede Halbrook from Oregon and in a photo-op before jumpball in an NCAA regional finals, he raised the ball as high as he could but Russell was still able to place his hands on top of the ball Swede was holding up.

A lot of coaches foremost among them is Red Auerbach maintains that a basketball player's true height is not from his feet to the top of his head but rather from his feet to the tip of his upstretched arms.

For a more extreme example consider the Logo, Jerry West. Standing only 6'3", West had the same sleeve length as 7'1" Wilt Chamberlain. Wingspans are usually the same as a player's height and West's wingspan exceeded his height by nine to ten inches.'

[Kblaze8855]

No it's not nonsense. I'm not going to believe something that sounds ridiculous and there's no PROOF to back it up. Stories are exaggerated, particularly when there's no way to disprove them, just like fishing stories.

Why should I believe that Wilt, Russell, Gus Johnson and Connie Hawkins are the 4 most athletic players ever and they all played 40+ years ago? That sounds pretty ridiculous.

This is one of the problems...people arguing against things thats arent being said.

You(I think it was you) in here mentioning guysl ike Earl the Goat and so on. 6'2'' people nobody knows anything about but whoever was in NY in the 60s.

We are talking about a near 7 footer and a guy taller than 7. Im talking about 7 foot tall olympic level high jumpers....inthe 60s when I find it likely not all backboards were created equally.

Nobody is saying the 4 greatest athletes of all time were in the 60s. In fact even if all 4 could do it itwouldnt make them the 4 greatest athletes.

Im looking at it case by case with the evidence I have of their athletic ability telling me if its reasonableto dismiss or not.

Plenty of things that sound absurd before looking into them are true. Plenty. If you tell a kid someone back in your day was 6'5'' 250 as strong as a lineman, as fast as a corner, and jumping higher than Vince Carter they might call you an old liar. Doesnt mean Vernon Davis doesnt exist. Speaking of 49er linebackers by the way...

http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/24/244456.jpg

Manny Lawson. Only 6'4'' I dont think hes as high as he seems due to that angle....that or the backboard is low...but that dude is flying.

Then we have:

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/6349/jameswhitecb1.jpg


And

http://sportsmaven.files.wordpress.com/2007/02/dwight-howard-sticker-at-2007-all-star-weekend-2-17-07.jpg

and

http://img240.exs.cx/img240/2136/travisoutlaw4ya.jpg

And we are talking about guys either slightly or a lot taller than any of them Dwight aside.

I think we are making it out to be harder than it is for guys the size we are talking. Im not just throwing blanket "Its true...prove it isnt" over everything said of 60s players.

Im saying I dont see the reason to be so sure about some of these issues.

You dont see me saying Wilt was right about being 54 inches off the ground in that picture with him waist high on a high jump bar warming up. Hes no doubt at least 38-40 something up...which at his size makes him head level to a rim....but I just dont think he did the math right on the 54.

Its not about beiliving whatever someone says because they said it. Its about evidence to me.

And I dont have much evidence to say world class high jumpers who are 6'10'' to 7'1'' couldnt touch the top of a backboard I cant even measure to say is the full height.

I just think there is room to talk between "He and eveyone else who claims they saw it is lying!" amd "No doubt theyhad 54 inch verticals".

I think the people saying they couldnt are as unreasonable as people saying no doubt they could. Neither has the proof and there are at least a few players I dont think its absurd to discuss as possibly doing it.

Especially considering what I still call the biggest issue...

60s backboards.

I have backboards on playgrounds around here that arent regulation(actually they are taller...but they arent regulation). How do I know what backboard they tried it on?

I just feel there are issues that have to be considered before we say "Everyone who says they saw ___ or they did ___ is lying....because I said so".

That so unfair?

[Scoooter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEgRvqQ5x-0

[jlauber]

This is one of the problems...people arguing against things thats arent being said.

You(I think it was you) in here mentioning guysl ike Earl the Goat and so on. 6'2'' people nobody knows anything about but whoever was in NY in the 60s.

We are talking about a near 7 footer and a guy taller than 7. Im talking about 7 foot tall olympic level high jumpers....inthe 60s when I find it likely not all backboards were created equally.

Nobody is saying the 4 greatest athletes of all time were in the 60s. In fact even if all 4 could do it itwouldnt make them the 4 greatest athletes.

Im looking at it case by case with the evidence I have of their athletic ability telling me if its reasonableto dismiss or not.

Plenty of things that sound absurd before looking into them are true. Plenty. If you tell a kid someone back in your day was 6'5'' 250 as strong as a lineman, as fast as a corner, and jumping higher than Vince Carter they might call you an old liar. Doesnt mean Vernon Davis doesnt exist. Speaking of 49er linebackers by the way...

http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/24/244456.jpg

Manny Lawson. Only 6'4'' I dont think hes as high as he seems due to that angle....that or the backboard is low...but that dude is flying.

Then we have:

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/6349/jameswhitecb1.jpg


And

http://sportsmaven.files.wordpress.com/2007/02/dwight-howard-sticker-at-2007-all-star-weekend-2-17-07.jpg

and

http://img240.exs.cx/img240/2136/travisoutlaw4ya.jpg

And we are talking about guys either slightly or a lot taller than any of them Dwight aside.

I think we are making it out to be harder than it is for guys the size we are talking. Im not just throwing blanket "Its true...prove it isnt" over everything said of 60s players.

Im saying I dont see the reason to be so sure about some of these issues.

You dont see me saying Wilt was right about being 54 inches off the ground in that picture with him waist high on a high jump bar warming up. Hes no doubt at least 38-40 something up...which at his size makes him head level to a rim....but I just dont think he did the math right on the 54.

Its not about beiliving whatever someone says because they said it. Its about evidence to me.

And I dont have much evidence to say world class high jumpers who are 6'10'' to 7'1'' couldnt touch the top of a backboard I cant even measure to say is the full height.

I just think there is room to talk between "He and eveyone else who claims they saw it is lying!" amd "No doubt theyhad 54 inch verticals".

I think the people saying they couldnt are as unreasonable as people saying no doubt they could. Neither has the proof and there are at least a few players I dont think its absurd to discuss as possibly doing it.

Especially considering what I still call the biggest issue...

60s backboards.

I have backboards on playgrounds around here that arent regulation(actually they are taller...but they arent regulation). How do I know what backboard they tried it on?

I just feel there are issues that have to be considered before we say "Everyone who says they saw ___ or they did ___ is lying....because I said so".

That so unfair?

I have said it several times...but does anyone really believe the fastest LEGITIMATE football player, EVER, played in the 60's?

And I would love to have seen Darrell Green, who has a RECORDED 4.35 40, at age 40 , and in his prime, taking on Chris Johnson.

Who would believe that Nolan Ryan was throwin 101 MPH, on a SLOW gun, in 1974? By slow, I mean that there are those that believe it would be the equivalent of 107 on TODAY's gun.

Barry Bonds with a measured long HR, (and PED assisted) of 490 ft...which was verifiably DWARFED by a 5-11, 180 lb SWITCH-hitter in the 50's and 60's?

Furthermore, give Hayes, Ryan (who, incidently was clocked at 98 MPH on his very LAST pitch, at age 46, and with an injured arm), and Mantle all the benefits of modern technology, training, medicine, equipment, nutrition, etc...and just how much better would they be today? The same applies to Wilt and Russell, who were clearly among the most exceptional athletes of all-time.

[nosurrender]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DgRC0pH2Uc

IS THIS REaL??????????

[jlauber]

David Thompson...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQPVKQIFxVk&feature=related

I guess he was a liar, too.

[Kblaze8855]

James White, who's only an inch or two shorter than Bill Russell recorded a jump 8 inches higher than Russels best, can't touch the backboard, though Russell can.

Amazing.

There we go. Case closed. Stop posting Kblaze, jlauber and PHILA you look stupid. More stupid than usual.

Some things just scream of a lack of concern with facts. If the way Russell was taught to jump generally helped you jump the highest the entire world of track wouldnt have abandoned it by the late 60s.

We are talking about two people 2-3 inches different in height jumping totally different styles 50 years apart with different wingspans and standing reaches and pretending that its fair to assume that becauseo one cant do something he was an inch or two from both cant?

And im stupid?

My whole point is that all things considered there isnt evidence enough to call people who claim to have done/seen a lot of these things liars.

If someone said Bob Cousy touched the top...fine. 7 foot tall olympic high jumpers?

Its case by case.

I dont see the problem.

[PistonsFan#21]

Bill Russel has a higher vertical leap than Spudd Webb and Nate Robinson

/thread

:facepalm

[jlauber]

Some things just scream of a lack of concern with facts. If the way Russell was taught to jump generally helped you jump the highest the entire world of track wouldnt have abandoned it by the late 60s.

We are talking about two people 2-3 inches different in height jumping totally different styles 50 years apart with different wingspans and standing reaches and pretending that its fair to assume that becauseo one cant do something he was an inch or two from both cant?

And im stupid?

My whole point is that all things considered there isnt evidence enough to call people who claim to have done/seen a lot of these things liars.

If someone said Bob Cousy touched the top...fine. 7 foot tall olympic high jumpers?

Its case by case.

I dont see the problem.

These folks believe that Nate Robinson and Spud Webb could outjump Wilt and Russell.

Look, Kblaze, you have too much common sense for this forum. You obviously research your posts thoroughly, and with back up your arguments with facts and logic. Unfortunately, there are those here who will dispute them no matter what evidence you present. And even if you could produce VIDEO footage, you can be sure that they would question who took the footage, and perhaps even suggest that it was edited.

You may have noticed but there is a clear anti-Wilt agenda by a select few on this forum, and now it is carrying over to Russell, as well. These posters will do consistently disparage what Chamberlain accomplished...no matter just how overwhelming the facts were.

[ShaqAttack3234]

This is one of the problems...people arguing against things thats arent being said.

You(I think it was you) in here mentioning guysl ike Earl the Goat and so on. 6'2'' people nobody knows anything about but whoever was in NY in the 60s.

We are talking about a near 7 footer and a guy taller than 7. Im talking about 7 foot tall olympic level high jumpers....inthe 60s when I find it likely not all backboards were created equally.

Nobody is saying the 4 greatest athletes of all time were in the 60s. In fact even if all 4 could do it itwouldnt make them the 4 greatest athletes.

Im looking at it case by case with the evidence I have of their athletic ability telling me if its reasonableto dismiss or not.

Plenty of things that sound absurd before looking into them are true. Plenty. If you tell a kid someone back in your day was 6'5'' 250 as strong as a lineman, as fast as a corner, and jumping higher than Vince Carter they might call you an old liar. Doesnt mean Vernon Davis doesnt exist. Speaking of 49er linebackers by the way...

http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/24/244456.jpg

Manny Lawson. Only 6'4'' I dont think hes as high as he seems due to that angle....that or the backboard is low...but that dude is flying.

Then we have:

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/6349/jameswhitecb1.jpg


And

http://sportsmaven.files.wordpress.com/2007/02/dwight-howard-sticker-at-2007-all-star-weekend-2-17-07.jpg

and

http://img240.exs.cx/img240/2136/travisoutlaw4ya.jpg

And we are talking about guys either slightly or a lot taller than any of them Dwight aside.

I think we are making it out to be harder than it is for guys the size we are talking. Im not just throwing blanket "Its true...prove it isnt" over everything said of 60s players.

Im saying I dont see the reason to be so sure about some of these issues.

You dont see me saying Wilt was right about being 54 inches off the ground in that picture with him waist high on a high jump bar warming up. Hes no doubt at least 38-40 something up...which at his size makes him head level to a rim....but I just dont think he did the math right on the 54.

Its not about beiliving whatever someone says because they said it. Its about evidence to me.

And I dont have much evidence to say world class high jumpers who are 6'10'' to 7'1'' couldnt touch the top of a backboard I cant even measure to say is the full height.

I just think there is room to talk between "He and eveyone else who claims they saw it is lying!" amd "No doubt theyhad 54 inch verticals".

I think the people saying they couldnt are as unreasonable as people saying no doubt they could. Neither has the proof and there are at least a few players I dont think its absurd to discuss as possibly doing it.

Especially considering what I still call the biggest issue...

60s backboards.

I have backboards on playgrounds around here that arent regulation(actually they are taller...but they arent regulation). How do I know what backboard they tried it on?

I just feel there are issues that have to be considered before we say "Everyone who says they saw ___ or they did ___ is lying....because I said so".

That so unfair?

Except, 7 footers, even the most athletic ones don't have verticals like Carter, White, Jordan ect. Not Robinson, young Shaq, not Garnett ect. So why should I believe Wilt could jump so much higher than them?

[PistonsFan#21]

These folks believe that Nate Robinson and Spud Webb could outjump Wilt and Russell.
Look, Kblaze, you have too much common sense for this forum. You obviously research your posts thoroughly, and with back up your arguments with facts and logic. Unfortunately, there are those here who will dispute them no matter what evidence you present. And even if you could produce VIDEO footage, you can be sure that they would question who took the footage, and perhaps even suggest that it was edited.

You may have noticed but there is a clear anti-Wilt agenda by a select few on this forum, and now it is carrying over to Russell, as well. These posters will do consistently disparage what Chamberlain accomplished...no matter just how overwhelming the facts were.

You are truly dumb if you think they couldnt...

[jlauber]

Except, 7 footers, even the most athletic ones don't have verticals like Carter, White, Jordan ect. Not Robinson, young Shaq, not Garnett ect. So why should I believe Wilt could jump so much higher than them?

How many of those you mentioned were world-class high-jumpers?

[ShaqAttack3234]

How many of those you mentioned were world-class high-jumpers?

Who said Wilt was a world class high jumper? Didn't he compete in high school? And I highly doubt high jumpers in the 60's were jumping like high jumpers in the 90's/00's and did any of the big men I mentioned show an interest in high jumping so how can you use that against them?

[jlauber]

Who said Wilt was a world class high jumper? Didn't he compete in high school? And I highly doubt high jumpers in the 60's were jumping like high jumpers in the 90's/00's and did any of the big men I mentioned show an interest in high jumping so how can you use that against them?

Bill Russell most certainly was. And Wilt was a Big-8 high jump champ. And you are right, the high jumpers of the 90's and 00's (James White one of them) were doing basically the same technique that was pioneered by Dick Fosbury in 1968...and well after Russell and Wilt's heyday. And, as that article mentioned, that TECHNIQUE brought about jumps with as much as a 25% difference.

Wilt was also a competitive LONG JUMPER, and a SPRINTER as well. Given the fact that he was at least 7-1, and had a KNOWN wingspan of 7-8...well 13 ft is a GIVEN. The real question, what was his MAXIMUM?

[Fatal9]

winning the high jump competition in the Big Eight track and field championships, clearing the bar at 6-6."

I think people overlook the fact that from his feet to his waist, Wilt was freakishly long. He was ~ 4.5 feet tall at his waist. High jump is all about getting the lower half of your body over the bar (ie. getting your waist over) and the rest of your body will follow, especially the way the old schoolers jumped.

What he lacked for in his vertical jump, he makes up easily with his long legs. Wilt essentially had a foot higher head start over your typical high jumper because of this. He needs to jump only about 2 feet to get his waist level with the bar. Measuring purely the vertical part of his jump, he needs to jump about ~ 2.5 feet to clear the bar with his waist and then time his legs to cross as well. Notice here, it's all about getting his waist about half a foot over the bar:

http://i30.tinypic.com/18g7f5.jpg

It's great coordination for a man his size, but the freakishly long lower half of his body is what make him a great high jumper, not his vertical (which is quite average). The fact his highest jump was 6'6, only further confirms that his vertical was in the 30-33 inch range, because that's exactly the height you'd expect him to max out at.

LOL @ 42+ inches. Yea, I'm sure Wilt had a higher vertical than MJ and Vince. Makes me wonder how these people function in real life with such little common sense. Nothing worse than stans who go out of their way to exaggerate their favorite athlete's feats. There's no doubt in my mind Russell had a higher vertical leap, he cleared 6'8 while being much shorter and would routinely win jumpballs against him.

[jlauber]

I think people overlook the fact that from his feet to his waist, Wilt was freakishly long. He was ~ 4.5 feet tall at his waist. High jump is all about getting the lower half of your body over the bar (ie. getting your waist over) and the rest of your body will follow, especially the way the old schoolers jumped.

What he lacked for in his vertical jump, he makes up easily with his long legs. Wilt essentially had a foot higher head start over your typical high jumper because of this. He needs to jump only about 2 feet to get his waist level with the bar. Measuring purely the vertical part of his jump, he needs to jump about ~ 2.5 feet to clear the bar with his waist and then time his legs to cross as well. Notice here, it's all about getting his waist about half a foot over the bar:

http://i30.tinypic.com/18g7f5.jpg

It's great coordination for a man his size, but the freakishly long lower half of his body is what make him a great high jumper, not his vertical (which is quite average). The fact his highest jump was 6'6, only further confirms that his vertical was in the 30-33 inch range, because that's exactly the height you'd expect him to max out at.

LOL @ 42+ inches. Yea, I'm sure Wilt had a higher vertical than MJ and Vince. Makes me wonder how these people function in real life with such little common sense. Nothing worse than stans who go out of their way to exaggerate their favorite athlete's feats. There's no doubt in my mind Russell had a higher vertical leap, he cleared 6'8 while being much shorter and would routinely win jumpballs against him.

I was waiting for the premier "anti-Wilt" poster to pop in with another copy-and-paste.

And, BTW, he was a PART-TIME high-jumper who happened to be a CHAMPION.

[Kblaze8855]

Except, 7 footers, even the most athletic ones don't have verticals like Carter, White, Jordan ect. Not Robinson, young Shaq, not Garnett ect. So why should I believe Wilt could jump so much higher than them?

You ever hear me say Wilt could jump higher than Vince carter?

Wilt had a 9'6'' and change standing reach.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/si/2010/basketball/nba/03/02/roundtable.wilt/wilt-tip.jpg

Ive seen him palm a basketball and touch it to the rim flat footed. With his reach he would only have to have a 42 inch vertical to touch the top of a backboard. People dont generally have 40+ standing verts but a lot of people can get there on the move. Id have no trouble accepting Dwight, Nance, Kemp, Wilt, Dawkins, Marcus Haislip and a few other bigmen getting up like that on the move.

And id be shocked if Vince in his prime couldnt get higher.


As for all this talk of Spuid and Nate...

Wilt and Russell jumping higher? Id need to see what was said about that to comment. Might go back and look.

[jlauber]

You ever hear me say Wilt could just higher than Vince carter?

Wilt had a 9'6'' and changestanding reach.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/si/2010/basketball/nba/03/02/roundtable.wilt/wilt-tip.jpg

Ive seen him palm a basketball and touch it to the rim flat footed. With his reach he he would only have to have a 42 inch vertical to touch the top of a backboard. People dont generally have 40+ standing verts but a lot of people can get there on the move. Id have no trouble accepting Dwight, Nance, Kemp, Wilt, Robinson, Dawkins, Marcus Haislip and a few other bigmen getting up like that on the move.

And id be shocked if Vince in his prime couldnt get higher.


As for all this talk of Spuid and Nate...

Wilt and Russell jumping higher? Id need to see what was said about that to comment. Might go back and look.

Nate and Spud were such great leapers that they consistently led the NBA in rebounding. Neither of those two could come anywhere near the heights that Russell and Wilt attained.

Incidently your estimate of 42" by Wilt is probably very close. George Kisida, a sportswriter who covered Wilt for much of his career, measured a leap by Wilt, in a hospital, at 42".

[Kblaze8855]

We talking feet off the ground high or hands in the air high? Clearly very different things...

[ShaqAttack3234]

You ever hear me say Wilt could jump higher than Vince carter?

Wilt had a 9'6'' and change standing reach.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/si/2010/basketball/nba/03/02/roundtable.wilt/wilt-tip.jpg

Ive seen him palm a basketball and touch it to the rim flat footed. With his reach he would only have to have a 42 inch vertical to touch the top of a backboard. People dont generally have 40+ standing verts but a lot of people can get there on the move. Id have no trouble accepting Dwight, Nance, Kemp, Wilt, Dawkins, Marcus Haislip and a few other bigmen getting up like that on the move.

And id be shocked if Vince in his prime couldnt get higher.


As for all this talk of Spuid and Nate...

Wilt and Russell jumping higher? Id need to see what was said about that to comment. Might go back and look.

A 42" vert for Wilt is ridiculous. Carter had a 43" vert and he could get up like this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMwYZ-WegYk

I'd bet any amount of money that Wilt's vert wasn't only 1" less than Carter's.

[jlauber]

We talking feet off the ground high or hands in the air high? Clearly very different things...

Robinson and Webb MAY have had higher verticals...although I am not convinced of that...but NEITHER could COME CLOSE to how high that Russell and Wilt reached.

[jlauber]

A 42" vert for Wilt is ridiculous. Carter had a 43" vert and he could get up like this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMwYZ-WegYk

I'd bet any amount of money that Wilt's vert wasn't only 1" less than Carter's.

Here again...Carter was a high jump champ?

Get that crap outta here.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Here again...Carter was a high jump champ?

Get that crap outta here.

What the hell? Carter is a basketball player! Not EVERYONE who jumps high in the NBA has to compete as a high jumper!!! God damnitt. What the ****? Did you even watch the video? Can you imagine Wilt getting off the ground like that? Now you watched Wilt from '64 on, did you ever see Wilt get off the ground like that?

Oh...I forgot, everyone who can jump high has to compete as a high jumper.

[Fl]

I've read most of the thread, I'd just like to say one thing. How does having done high jump back up an argument that a guy can jump higher than everyone else? So what? Basketball is a game of jumping and working on that too, with weights, programs, etc. You maximize your leaping ability in basketball, at least you would if you were a pro. If Vince Carter/Jason Richardson/LeBron James in his prime had been a track star (namely high jump) too, are you saying he would have been able to jump so much higher?

[Fatal9]

You ever hear me say Wilt could jump higher than Vince carter?
You realize Vince maxed out at 43" right (slightly above MJ who was 42" but could have been as high as 44")? If you think Wilt was jumping as high as this guy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVcVs7bJ63g&#t=7m27s), which is what you're implying with the 42" claim then sorry, you're delusional. This really doesn't even need to be argued...

By all the REAL evidence we have (Wilt's max high jump, the hours and hours of footage we have available of him in his athletic prime etc), there is nothing that implies Wilt could leap higher than 31-33". Quit exaggerating the fukk out of this guy, just brings more hate on him. Look at his body, you think a guy with such a high center of gravity is jumping 42+ inches? WTF.

[Tha Catalyst]

Here again...Carter was a high jump champ?

Get that crap outta here.
I feel stupider now for having read your posts throughout this thread. Even the high jump video in this thread displays Wilt did not have close to enough explosive power to have a vertical close to 40". Look at the video again and tell me this guy could get up like Carter, Robinson and Jordan.

[Kblaze8855]

A 42" vert for Wilt is ridiculous. Carter had a 43" vert and he could get up like this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMwYZ-WegYk

I'd bet any amount of money that Wilt's vert wasn't only 1" less than Carter's.

I really dont believe you know what vinces vertical is. Which isnt a judgment of you...as I dont think I know either. Lot of these numbers thrown out are just pulled out of someones ass at some point posted on a list of verticals and spread. It doesnt work like that in real life. Vince might jump his ass off one day and not go as high as he will 2 days later in a different situation.

You play ball im guess...you may know what I mean. I could never dunk anything like Vince carter of course. But after the first time I dunked I couldnt dunk that clean again for months. Cant tell you why. But some times I could jump higher than others. Some days id be able to do things I couldnt later that same day.

You really think every time Vince goes to jump no matter the situation if he goes all out...it would be the same height?

Of course it wont.

Vince on the highest jump of his life I suspect was higher than 43. And I suspect that if Wilt could get to 42 he couldnt do it rolling out of bed after going through numbers 11,443 and 11,444.

You arent jumping the same all the time which is why I just dont think we can say for sure how high anyone gets. A range? I guess.

If Wilt had a "Really trying" on the move range of 36-42 that Vince probably had a range above that. Where did it peak?

Cant say.

But I know I spent like half an hour trying to catch lobs and dunk(I couldt get there normally at the time) after the first time I did it and nobody believed I could.

Im not vince carter. But we have the same muscles in our legs I assume. Im guessing he doesnt jump the same height every time either.

[jlauber]

What the hell? Carter is a basketball player! Not EVERYONE who jumps high in the NBA has to compete as a high jumper!!! God damnitt. What the ****? Did you even watch the video? Can you imagine Wilt getting off the ground like that? Now you watched Wilt from '64 on, did you ever see Wilt get off the ground like that?

Oh...I forgot, everyone who can jump high has to compete as a high jumper.

James White, was a high-jumper. Actually the generally GIFTED athletes almost always participate in track. Bo, Jim Brown, OJ, Deion, Darrell Green, Bob Hayes, Bill Russell, and Wilt to name just a FEW.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I really dont believe you know what vinces vertical is. Which isnt a judgment of you...as I dont think I know either. Lot of these numbers thrown out are just pulled out of someones ass at some point posted on a list of verticals and spread. It doesnt work like that in real life. Vince might jump his ass off one day and not go as high as he will 2 days later in a different situation.

You play ball im guess...you may know what I mean. I could never dunk anything like Vince carter of course. But after the first time I dunked I couldnt dunk that clean again for months. Cant tell you why. But some times I could jump higher than others. Some days id be able to do things I couldnt later that same day.

You really think every time Vince goes to jump no matter the situation if he goes all out...it would be the same height?

Of course it wont.

Vince on the highest jump of his life I suspect was higher than 43. And I suspect that if Wilt could get to 42 he couldnt do it rolling out of bed after going through numbers 11,443 and 11,444.

You arent jumping the same all the time which is why I just dont think we can say for sure how high anyone gets. A range? I guess.

If Wilt had a "Really trying" on the move range of 36-42 that Vince probably had a range above that. Where did I peak?

Cant say.

But I know I spent like half an hour trying to catch lobs and dunk(I couldt get there normally at the time) after the first time I did it and nobody believed I could.

Im not vince carter. But we have the same muscles in our legs I assume. Im guessing he doesnt jump the same height every time either.

Carter's vert was 43" at the pre-draft camp.

And yes, I play basketball, but I'm fairly consistent with my vert, I can almost always touch the rim(though I just have a 7'2" standing reach) and I'm typically between 2-4 inches over, but can't dunk, not particularly close either. I guess some days because my knees are bad I can barely touch the rim, but not that big of a variation and I have no idea if my jumping technique is decent..

yes, Vince could be a bit higher than 43", but regardless, how high could it be? And at Wilt's height, he'd need just a 34" vert to have his head at rim level, yet in all of the footage of him going for blocks, I've never seen his head at rim level. Now I'm not saying he couldn't get there, but if he had a vert close to or around 40" this shouldn't even require that much effort for him.

[jlauber]

Carter's vert was 43" at the pre-draft camp.

And yes, I play basketball, but I'm fairly consistent with my vert, I can almost always touch the rim(though I just have a 7'2" standing reach) and I'm typically between 2-4 inches over, but can't dunk, not particularly close either. I guess some days because my knees are bad I can barely touch the rim, but not that big of a variation and I have no idea if my jumping technique is decent..

yes, Vince could be a bit higher than 43", but regardless, how high could it be? And at Wilt's height, he'd need just a 34" vert to have his head at rim level, yet in all of the footage of him going for blocks, I've never seen his head at rim level. Now I'm not saying he couldn't get there, but if he had a vert close to or around 40" this shouldn't even require that much effort for him.

ShaqAttack,

You are really an intelligent poster, and while I don't always agree with yoru take, I respect it. Suffice to say...we will just have to agree to disagree.

I am going to bed.

[plowking]

I knew that jlauber was dense and slow.

That's what we're saying asswipe. Since Chamberlain had a 9'6 standing reach, that would mean he'd need 42 inches to touch the top of the back board.

Nate has a 43 inch vertical. You just said Wilt and Russell couldn't get as high off the ground as Nate and Spud most likely. Thus, I doubt you were talking 1 inch difference seeing as that would be barely noticeable in a vertical jump from a general observation.

Case closed, Wilt did not have a 42 inch vertical if Spud Webb and Nate Robinson only had a 1 inch higher vertical at 43 inches.

[Kblaze8855]

You realize Vince maxed out at 43" right (slightly above MJ who was 42" but could have been as high as 44")? If you think Wilt was jumping as high as this guy, which is what you're implying with the 42" claim then sorry, you're delusional. This really doesn't even need to be argued...

Wilt could jump like 10 inches and dunk. Why would he ever need to do anything on a basketball court that would show how high he could get? To catch a floater at its peak at 13 feet?

Footage of dunks and such just dont do it for me in these situations. Especially when the issue is a guy with a 9'6'' reach playing when dunking in a flashy manner just wasnt done.

If vince were 7 inches taller and playing in 1962 he wouldnt be doing windmills.

Really...think about it.

Drop vince in 1962 or so. Nobody will throw him crazy lobs. He wont do a windmill because....its just not done. He wont do a 360. You would see 4 minutes of footage from a playoff game and people would probably be on here showing Lebron dunks saying Vince never did anything like that.

In game footage just isnt of use comparing players in such different eras. If Wilt had every second of play recorded and seen by millions with every highlight he ever did on youtube and charity game footage, dunk contests, and all star games made to show off....maybe you would see him do a no look 360 like Jamal Magloire.

There is just nothing ive seen that would make me say Wilt was going all out. A few really high blocks...but thats still jumping to get to a target. Not just to jump.

video is almost useless in these things to me.

[nosurrender]

I knew that jlauber was dense and slow.

That's what we're saying asswipe. Since Chamberlain had a 9'6 standing reach, that would mean he'd need 42 inches to touch the top of the back board.

Nate has a 43 inch vertical. You just said Wilt and Russell couldn't get as high off the ground as Nate and Spud most likely. Thus, I doubt you were talking 1 inch difference seeing as that would be barely noticeable in a vertical jump from a general observation.

Case closed, Wilt did not have a 42 inch vertical if Spud Webb and Nate Robinson only had a 1 inch higher vertical at 43 inches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DgRC0pH2Uc
so this guy must have a 45+ vert??? he's six nine

[Q.E.C]

This has nothing to do with the topic, but either LeBron got his whole head over the rim, or that's a weird angle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWi8Ds2RoE4

[Pointguard]

If you really want to measure explosion measure a standing broad jump. Its like super hero stuff, a guy is next to you and then blink and he 20 feet away. That's the most explosive the body gets. NOthing else we do is comparable in measure of explosion or muscle combustion. You have to have a quick leap and a strong leap to project your whole body that far.

Boozer has a quick leap but not a strong one -not much height. Jason Richardson only has a strong leap which is why his game suffers. Barkley had both. Amare had/has both. VC and Jordan are amazing with both.

Wilt had HS numbers and collegiate numbers at 22 feet which is why his dunking from the foul line, Wilt did it with a one step broad jump, is something that can be surmised pretty easily. In general we are nutritional giants in comparison to the 1960's people. But it is not across the board and 100% everybody. There are people who are just ahead of their time. There were people in the Roman times that ran 96 miles. We are not 100% more athletic than everybody from the 18th century.

[Pointguard]

All of that to say Wilt was different and maybe had a more combustiable chemical in his body. I do believe Wilt would demolish every center in the game in a long jump, high jump, endurance feats, track, bench press, triple jump and high hurdles in an overall competition. I do believe a prime Shaq and David Robinson would win a couple of competitions. But if Wilt had their training and nutrition neither one of them would win in any category. And you could throw in a low post moves competition to boot.

[ShaqAttack3234]

In response to Plowking's comments about Shaq recording a higher vert than Wade, Kobe and Penny, well, technically you're right about Wade. Shaq was at 36" max and Wade at 35.5", but I believe Wade can get higher. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBidaKOmiKQ#t=3m54s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpsiXARHBfU#t=1m10s

I'd be shocked if Wade's vert wasn't closer to 38" or so.

And Kobe skipped the pre-draft camp while Penny's vertical isn't available. I hear the 38" figure floating around for Kobe's vert in his prime and I believe that. His feet were definitely higher off the ground than Shaq even in his LSU days.

[Pointguard]

Leaps in the game are adrenaline charged and are probably 4 - 7 inches higher. Think of 1st time you jammed - in a game - it was much higher than you normally jump. Bigger guys like Shawn Kemp could really sky but when you are that tall you are less likely to go max. Particurally after you head accidently hit the backboard like Blake Griffin has done a couple of times.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Leaps in the game are adrenaline charged and are probably 4 - 7 inches higher. Think of 1st time you jammed - in a game - it was much higher than you normally jump. Bigger guys like Shawn Kemp could really sky but when you are that tall you are less likely to go max. Particurally after you head accidently hit the backboard like Blake Griffin has done a couple of times.

Yeah, Dwight's vert was 35.5" at the pre-draft camp, but with a 9'3.5" standing reach, he proved he could touch atleast in the '07 dunk contest 12'6" making his vert atleast 38.5" or the 39" that he claimed. No way do I buy Andre Igoudala maxing out at 34.5" either.

[Pointguard]

Yeah, Dwight's vert was 35.5" at the pre-draft camp, but with a 9'3.5" standing reach, he proved he could touch atleast in the '07 dunk contest 12'6" making his vert atleast 38.5" or the 39" that he claimed. No way do I buy Andre Igoudala maxing out at 34.5" either.
Yeah, and he was multitasking at that time. If I recall right he posted the note with his left hand and dunked with his right. My guess is that he has three more inches on that.

[jlauber]

If you really want to measure explosion measure a standing broad jump. Its like super hero stuff, a guy is next to you and then blink and he 20 feet away. That's the most explosive the body gets. NOthing else we do is comparable in measure of explosion or muscle combustion. You have to have a quick leap and a strong leap to project your whole body that far.

Boozer has a quick leap but not a strong one -not much height. Jason Richardson only has a strong leap which is why his game suffers. Barkley had both. Amare had/has both. VC and Jordan are amazing with both.

Wilt had HS numbers and collegiate numbers at 22 feet which is why his dunking from the foul line, Wilt did it with a one step broad jump, is something that can be surmised pretty easily. In general we are nutritional giants in comparison to the 1960's people. But it is not across the board and 100% everybody. There are people who are just ahead of their time. There were people in the Roman times that ran 96 miles. We are not 100% more athletic than everybody from the 18th century.

This is an excellent post.

While I believe every generation slowly improves, it does not necessarily mean that EVERY athlete was better than those of say 10, 15, 20 even 50 years ago.

And certainly these "improvements" are generally not dramatic, either. Does anyone really believe that Wilt, or Dr. J would be an average basketball player today? Kareem? Olajuwon? MJ? Shaq?

It has been about 12 years since MJ last played a meaningful game...and he was on the decline even then. So, his PEAK was probably in the early 90's...or close to 20 years ago. Does that mean we are to automatically assume that the best players of today are automatically better than MJ was 20 years ago? In fact, using some of the logic posted on this topic, are we to assume that EVERY basketball player today is better than what MJ was 20 years ago?

And, MJ was not head-and-shoulders above Magic, Bird, and Dr. J, either. Better? Perhaps, but certainly not overwhelmingly.

Is Howard better today, than Shaq was in 2000? Is Spencer Hawes better than Shaq in 2000? How about Olajuwon in 1995? Mose Malone in 1983? Kareem in 1972? Wilt in 1967? Russell in 1963?

And, where is the cut-off point? When did we come to believe that the players of today became better than those of yesteryear? What specific year did that take place?

I have mentioned the "bridges" before. Ted Williams and Kareem. Ted Williams was a rookie in 1939. His numbers were not better than Lou Gehrig's in 1936, whose numbers were certainly not better than Babe Ruth's in either 1927, or 1920. Williams hit .406 in 1941, against 1941 pitching. Then, at age 38, in 1957, he hit .388 against 1957 pitching...some of whom would pitch into the 60's (and 70's.) Was Williams head-and-shoulders above his peers? No...Mickey Mantle won the Triple Crown in 1956, and slugged 52 HRs in the process. Willie Mays hit 51 HRs in 1955, and 52 in 1965. Hank Aaron hit 44 HRs in 1957, and 40 HRs in 1973 (in 392 ABs), and against 1970's pitching...many of whom would be throwing into the 1980's. George Foster hit 52 HRs in 1977. Mike Schmidt was hitting 40 HRs in the 80's. Of course, we had an "explosion" in the 90's, due to other factors...but you get the picture. If we use Ted Williams as the "bridge", we can conclude that Lou Gehrig (and probably Babe Ruth) would still be great today.

Nolan Ryan is another "bridge." He was a rookie in 1969, and retired in the 90's. In between he set strikeout records that will probably never be broken. I have mentioned it before, but he was clocked by a SLOW radar gun at 101 MPH, in the 8th inning of a game in which he had already thrown 162 pitches. I have posted the link previously, in which the writer believes that Ryan would have hit 107 on a "fast" gun. Incidently, for pure speed, google the name Steve Dalkowski. You won't know who he was, but there are those, including Ted Williams, who believe that he was the hardest thrower ever. Speaking of speed...Bob Feller (and Walter Johnson before him) was believed to have thrown in the 100's. Koufax could as well, but he could not control it, so he "slowed" it down to about 98, and became almost unhittable. Ryan, himself, was STILL among the hardest throwers in his LAST season, and at age 46. He was clocked at 98 MPH on his very LAST pitch, and on an injured arm. As great as Ryan was, he was certainly not the best pitcher of all-time.

I have mentioned Mickey Mantle before. I have posted the link which lists his 10 longest HRs. Personally, I don't believe them all, but his 565 ft. HR was actually measured. Barry Bonds never came close to that distance. And I don't believe McGwire did, either. AND, Mantle was hitting "tape measure" shots from BOTH sides of the plate. All at 5-11 and 180 lbs. Hank Aaron and Willie Mays were not big guys, yet they are two of the greatest HR hitters ever. And players like Stargell, Howard, Killebrew, and McCovey were hitting 500+ ft, HRs back in the 60's. And, who can forget Reggie Jackson's monstrous HR in the '71 All-Star game?

So, are we to believe that TODAY's baseball players are SIGNIFICANTLY better than those that played 50+ years ago?

I have mentioned football. True, today's football players are much bigger (and probably much stronger) than those of even 20 years ago. Geez, there are 260 lb quarterbacks playing today. But, in terms of speed, there have been MANY faster players than the fastest in the league today (Chris Johnson...who ran a 4.24 40.)

Darrell Green played in the NFL from 1983 to 2002. I have seen claims of a 40 as low as 4.09. I am not convinced of that mark, BUT, at age 40 he ran a clocked 4.35, and was among the five fastest players in the league...at age 40! Bo Jackson ran a 4.12 at the NFL combine. Jackson, at 220 lbs, was also WORLD ranked in the 60 meter. Deion hit 4.18. Hershel Walker ran a 10.1 100 meters. OJ Simpson was a member of USC's world-record holding 4x100 relay team in 1967. And, of course, Bob Hayes ran a 10.0 100 meters in 1964. NO LEGITIMATE NFL player (much less a HOF receiver like Hayes), has EVER run faster. And he played over 40 years ago.

That brings us to Kareem..."the NBA bridge." Kareem was hanging three straight games of 35, 42, and 46 on Hakeem in the 85-86, and at age 39! We all know that Hakeem went on to be generally regarded as the best center in the league in the 90's. He certainly gave Shaq all he could handle in 1995. Shaq, of course, became the dominant player of the 00's. However, for all of Kareem's greatness, he STRUGGLED against BOTH Nate Thurmond and Wilt...and BOTH of those guys were well past their primes. Kareem, in his statistical prime, in the 70-71, 71-72, and 72-73 seasons, did not shoot even 50% against Nate and Wilt, ONE time, in five post-season series. In fact, in a couple of them he barely cleared 40%. And, against Wilt, in Chamberlain's last season, in six regular season games, he was outshot by Chamberlain, .637 to .450. And, once again, both Nate and Wilt were well past their primes. Futhermore, Chamberlain dominated Thurmond early in his career, and thoroughly outrebounded and outshot him in every post-season. In some early games he crushed Thurmond (in one game he outscored him 45-13.) Wilt outrebounded Thurmond in every post-season, as well as held him to below 40% (some WAY below 40%) in EVERY post-season battle (while never shooting less than 50% himself.)

We have discussed Wilt's athleticism. There are eye-witness accounts of him touching the top of the backboard, by well respected sports figures. He even had long-time sports writer George Kisida measure a leap at a 42". The NBA and NCAA outlawed the dunking of FTs BECAUSE of Wilt. There are numerous articles that credit Wilt with dunking on a 12 ft. rim...all of which popped up while he was at Kansas. He was a high-jump champ, a long jumper, 440, 880, shot-putter, sprinter, and a triple jumper while at Kansas. And he was only participating PART TIME. His track coach believed that he would have been capable of clearing 7-0. AND, had the "Fosbury Flop" TECHNIQUE been used back then, there is no telling how much than 7-0 he would have gone. There are also MANY accounts of his awesome strength. 500+ bench press numbers are ALL over the internet. Here again...eye-witness accounts, as well. Most all of these incredible stories are not told by Wilt, but by MANY others.

The bottom line...Wilt was truly a ONE-OF-A-KIND. He was a gifted outside shooter when he entered the NBA, and he DOMINATED the game like no one before...or SINCE. He was widely regarded as having outplayed Kareem in their 28 H2H matchups, and all but one were after his leg surgery (and he CLEARLY crushed Kareem in that one game before the injury.) And, as we have already read, Kareem went on to dominate Hakeem, who outplayed Shaq, who dominated the 00's. You can draw your conclusions from that.

[ShaqAttack3234]

And, as we have already read, Kareem went on to dominate Hakeem, who outplayed Shaq, who dominated the 00's. You can draw your conclusions from that.

Haven't you always maintained that you didn't believe this to be true?

[jlauber]

Haven't you always maintained that you didn't believe this to be true?

Alright...just trying to emphasize a point.

[jlauber]

http://articles.latimes.com/2006/aug/22/sports/sp-dwyre22/2

"Kiseda cites Chamberlain's incredible athleticism.

"I saw him palm a bowling ball," he says. "I also saw him go up for a jump ball against K.C. Jones and tip it in. I saw him standing in a hospital gown, in a room with a high ceiling, and jump at least 42 inches straight up and palm the ceiling.""

Just a couple of quick ones...

http://volleyball.org/people/wilt_chamberlain.html

"From Pat Powers, 1984 Olympic Volleyball Gold Medalist, 10/14/99 -
A lot has been written about Wilt the last several days here in So Cal. He is receiving more attention now than he has for the last fifteen years--he would have preferred it this way, Wilt was never one for the spotlight off the court.

Here are two stories that I just attached names to yesterday:

One day big Wilty (a notorious card cheater) was playing a game off VB down at Muscle Beach in Santa Monica. To say Wilty was competitve in all sports would be a minor understatement. An argument broke out over the correct score and Wilty was not giving ground to anybody on the court. One of the players, Amon Lucky, made the mistake of stepping under the net to further the point, when Wilty picked him up and threw him over the net!!! Now understand the "Amer" weighs something on the order of 225lbs, so the rumor is Wilty "taped"him on the throw over. needless to say Wilty won the argument, and if memory serves me correct, the game.

Wilty was one of the strongest guys I have ever seen. I once was sitting on the steel fence at Rosecrans taking in the Rosecrans open with Wilt and several cohorts back in the late 70's. A player from Muscle Beach was standing beneath us and told us he was going to walk around so he could come join us up on the rail. Wilty told him there was "no no reason to walk," and reached down and picked him up by one arm and hoisted him over the bar. Mike weighed ~240lbs!!!

I have been around some athletes in my day. But nobody and I mean nobody was stronger than Wilty. He was a man's man!!! "

http://wiltfan.tripod.com/chat.htm

"This is the transcript from Wilt's online interview from MSNBC

Subject:
From:
Host:
Date: NBA legend Wilt Chamberlain 4-18-97
Chris Donohue (MSNBC)
MSNBC
Mon Nov 24 11:58

Host Pamm_MSNBC says:
Our guest is Wilt Chamberlain, NBA legend and author of "Who's Running The Asylum". Wilt's book is only available by calling 800-280-1776. A portion of the book proceeds will benefit Chamberlain's favorite charities.

Host @Wilt_Chamberlain has joined the conversation.

Host Wilt_Chamberlain says:
Hello!

M3 says:
Hi Wilt

kovler says:
what up wilt

jonn says:
hello wilt

^LapTop^ says:
Hi Wilt !

Ron says:
hows it going wilt?

Host Chris_MSNBC2 says:
one says:
Oh, well in that case my question would be...."witch collage where you drafted from?"

Host Wilt_Chamberlain says:
I was drafted from high school back in 1955. I went to U of Kansas, but they made a special ruling and I was the first drafted out of high school, Overbrook high school in Philadelphia.

Host Chris_MSNBC2 says:
Rastaman says:
What's his book about??

NooRotic says:
I've got nuthing but RESPECT for you WILT....

Host Wilt_Chamberlain says:
My book is about how the inside of sports has gone completely crazy and what we can do about straightening things out. About illuminating the problems inside of sports today and what we can do about it.

Host Chris_MSNBC2 says:
Rastaman says:
And How did he feel when he scored the 100 points...

Host Wilt_Chamberlain says:
Well, I am known mainly for scoring 100 points. I felt, at that particular time, very tired. But it was not an individual record as most think, it was my team, they went above and beyond to get me the ball and stop the NY Knicks from doing all sorts of outlandish things to stop me from scoring.

Host Chris_MSNBC2 says:
M3 says:
Question for Wilt...watched you bench press about 465 lbs like it was a match stick at the Stanford gym when you were working out there for some reason...how much can you still push up?

Host Wilt_Chamberlain says:
Well, probably I can push up a little more than that right now, because I was bench pressing some great weights. I was a shot-putter and lifting weights was a great joy to me. I liked to show off, I don't do that anymore, but I could probably bench press more than 465 pounds now."

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain

"Several years after Wilt stopped playing, he toyed with the idea of a comeback. On the day he visited the Knicks' offices in Madison Square Garden, he talked to Red Holzman, then strode out to the elevator. When it opened, two deliverymen were struggling with a dolly piled high with boxes of office supplies, mostly letterheads and envelopes. The load was so heavy, the elevator had stopped maybe four inches below the floor level and now the deliverymen were huffing and puffing, but they couldn't raise the dolly high enough to get it on the floor level. After maybe two minutes of the deliverymen's huffing and puffing, Wilt, his biceps bulging in a tank top, peered down at them and intoned, "Gentlemen, maybe I can help." They stepped back, he stepped into the elevator, grabbed each end of the rope slung under the dolly and without much exertion, quickly lifted the dolly onto the floor level. Looking up in awe, the deliverymen said, "Thank you." Wilt said, "You're welcome." Wilt stepped into the elevator and rode down to the street level as another witness followed the two deliverymen toward the Knick offices and asked, "How much does all this weigh?" They quickly surveyed the stack of big boxes of office supplies. "Close to 600 pounds," one said. [Source: The Good Natured Giant Wasn't Belligerent, Sports of the Times; Oct 13, 1999; Dave Anderson]"

An article from Sport's Illustrated, written in 1964...and well before Wilt would fill out his frame...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...91/2/index.htm

"With Chamberlain now doing what everyone expected of him all along, San Francisco fans are coming back. They like him and his perpetual-motion supporting cast, and they like winning. About the only people not happy are the Warriors' opponents. The St. Louis Hawks' 6-foot-9, 240-pound Zelmo Beaty, for example, found out recently that he can no longer take Chamberlain's great strength for granted. Unable to slow Wilt down with conventional maltreatment, Beaty tried to yank his shorts off. Chamberlain, who can press 400 pounds without breathing hard, makes it a point to control his temper, primarily because he is genuinely afraid he might kill somebody. Beaty's unethical yank, however, was too much. Wilt flicked an arm, and Beaty flew across the floor like a man shot out of a cannon. Referee Mendy Rudolph rushed over to him and said: "For God's sake, stay down, man. Don't even twitch a muscle." Beaty didn't twitch, and he is still active in the NBA."

[jlauber]

How about this comment from none other than Larry Brown in 1980...

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain

"Of all his memories of Wilt Chamberlain, the one that stood out for Larry Brown happened long after Chamberlain's professional career had ended. On a summer day in the early 1980s, when Brown was coaching at UCLA, Chamberlain showed up at Pauley Pavilion to take part in one of the high-octane pickup games that the arena constantly attracted. "Magic Johnson used to run the games," Brown recalled Tuesday after hearing that Chamberlain, his friend, had died at 63, "and he called a couple of chintzy fouls and a goaltending on Wilt. "So Wilt said: 'There will be no more layups in this gym,' and he blocked every shot after that. That's the truth, I saw it. He didn't let one [of Johnson's] shots get to the rim." Chamberlain would have been in his mid-40s at the time, and he remained in top physical shape until recently[1]"

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f2/sto...99/index6.html

"I appreciate your comments. Remember, however, that long limbs do not mean you can't bench press excellent poundages. Wilt Chamberlain, the 7' 2" skinny elite basketball player had very poor mechanical advantages for the bench press. His chest was flat, and his arms were skinny and really long! Nonetheless, he was able to bench press 500 lbs! Nobody would believe this by looking at him. His bench press figures have been verified and are widely known. You can find documentation of it on the web. He just happened to have freakishly dense muscles, and excellent genetics when it came to all the other factors that result in brute strength.

Shaq O' Neil, however, can "only" bench press 450 lbs even though he has much thicker arms, more overall mass, shorter arms and a thicker chest. Shaq has to compensate for not being as gifted as Wilt in some areas."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slam_dunk

"Olympic Gold Medalist Bob Kurland was a 7-foot center and the first player to regularly dunk during games in the 1940's and 50's. Wilt Chamberlain was known to have dunked on an experimental 12-foot basket set up by Phog Allen at the University of Kansas in the 1950s.[5] Michael Wilson, a former Harlem Globetrotter and University of Memphis basketball player, matched this feat on April 1, 2000 albeit with an alley-oop. Dwight Howard dunked on an 12ft basket in the 2009 NBA dunk contest also off an ally-oop.

Jim Pollard[6], Wilt Chamberlain[5], Julius Erving, Clyde Drexler, Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Kobe Bryant, Stromile Swift, Shawn Kemp, Grant Hill, Darrell Griffith, Korleone Young, Edgar Jones, LeBron James, James White, Vince Carter, Jason Richardson, Jamario Moon, Chris Webber, Dwight Howard, Mike Conley, Jr., Brent Barry and Al Thornton have each dunked while jumping from around the free throw line, which is 15 feet from the basket. Unlike the others, Wilt Chamberlain did not require a full running start, but instead began his movement from inside the top half of the free throw circle.[5]"

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain

"Legends abound of the truly great leapers who could touch the top of the board. Almost always the feat involves money-claims that the player could grab a dollar bill off the top of the board, or could pluck off a quarter and leave two dimes and a nickel change ... "I defy anyone to say they took change off the top of the backboard," Chamberlain said. "I could. Someone would put a quarter up and I'd snatch it down. I've heard stories about Jackie Jackson doing it, but I've never seen anyone (but himself) come close." Sonny Hill, a Philadelphia leaping legend of the '60s, backs Wilt, saying, "The only man that's been to the top, that's Wilt. I asked Kareem if he ever did, and he could jump a little bit. He told me, `Sonny, no.'"

http://wiltfan.tripod.com/didyaknow.htm

"Wilt used to lift weights with Arnold Shwartzenegger and Wilt got his bench press up to 500 pounds."

Toldeo Blade - Nov 28, 1956

'It seems Wilt has an unorthodox method of shooting free throws. The big guy takes aim at the basket from several feet behind the line. Then he takes about three giant steps, leaves his feet before reaching the line, and stuffs the ball through the hoop.

Under the old rule, it was perfectly legal as Wilt never touched the floor before letting go of the ball. In addition his percentage was fantastic.

"Why, he would have had a free throw percentage of 100," said [Tex] Winter. "He never missed."

Incidentally the rules committee did not mention Chamberlain by name as a reason for the change. The rule change was made, according to the committee, "to prevent freak activity."'

The Evening Independent - Sep 15, 1966

'Chamberlain, like Brown, is a great athlete and seriously considered becoming a fighter a year and a half ago. Wilt and Jimmy have competed againsy each other in foot races and tests of strength.

"I'd rather fight Clay than Wilt," Brown said. "Chamberlain's too big and he's too strong, but I'm no fighter. I'm saving whatever fighting I've got to do for the Dirty Dozen."'


St. Petersburg Times - Feb 25, 1969

'Wilt Chamberlain is probably the first giant in history to be able to break 50 seconds in the 440, win a Big Eight high-jump title and be able to set a pick. In fact, he may not be a true giant. Medicine has taken the mystery out of gigantism. Most giants of the past were physical weaklings. Some were 90 percent legs. Wilt Chamberlain, by common consent, is the world's strongest man.'

The Miami News - Nov 7, 1962

'He can clean and jerk a 375 lb weight.

Prescott Evening Courier - Dec 13, 1955



'In his colorful and highly successful coaching career at the University of Kansas, Dr. Phog Allen has come up with many radical proposals intended to improve the game of basketball. The one recommendation that readily comes to mind is the suggestion that the baskets be raised from 12 to 15 feet from the floor to overcome the edge enjoyed by exceptionally tall players. At the moment, however Coach Allen isn't pressing that point too vigorously.

If Coach Allen did wish to present a clinching argument in favor of raising the baskets he would only have to look at his freshman squad and put the finger on one Wilton Chamberlain. Wilt the Stilt, as Chamberlain has been called, is a 7-foot-plus growing boy. He has no trouble at all "dunking" the ball into the 12-foot baskets and might even come close to doing the same at the 15-foot height. Many coaches call Chamberlain the greatest basketball player in the country - right now and at this stage of his development.'

[jlauber]

I posted the above to make a point. I certainly don't believe every story about Wilt or his accomplishments, but clearly, there HAS to be something to MANY of them.

No one man could just come up with these "myths."

And, of course, the biggest point in all of these "stories"...IF these stories were false, where are those that actually witnessed Wilt...the MANY players, coaches, and members of the media...where are those that would DISPUTE them??? Clearly, if these were fabrications, wouldn't at least ONE person come forward (especially since Wilt has been dead for over 10 years now)...and say something like, "Hey, I was practicing with Wilt, and he tried to touch the top of the backboard, but he couldn't even come close." Or, "I was working out with Wilt, and those reports of him benching 500 lbs are untrue. He couldn't even get 400 lbs up."

Where are those people?

[ShaqAttack3234]

I posted the above to make a point. I certainly don't believe every story about Wilt or his accomplishments, but clearly, there HAS to be something to MANY of them.

No one man could just come up with these "myths."

And, of course, the biggest point in all of these "stories"...IF these stories were false, where are those that actually witnessed Wilt...the MANY players, coaches, and members of the media...where are those that would DISPUTE them??? Clearly, if these were fabrications, wouldn't at least ONE person come forward (especially since Wilt has been dead for over 10 years now)...and say something like, "Hey, I was practicing with Wilt, and he tried to touch the top of the backboard, but he couldn't even come close." Or, "I was working out with Wilt, and those reports of him benching 500 lbs are untrue. He couldn't even get 400 lbs up."

Where are those people?

I'm not going to doubt that Wilt could bench press 465 in his weight lifting days or later career.

By the way Shaq's reported bench press as we discussed before is credited at 445, 455 and 465 across the internet. So the 445 figure you cited was listed, but so was the 465 figure I remembered seeing. Interestingly enough, one of your articles had him at 450. Again, I don't know how much he could really bench, but what i do know is that he's the strongest player of his era and I'd say the same thing about Wilt. Shaq did get into weight lifting a lot with the Lakers when he was also noticeably bigger than his younger years so for a 7'1"-7'2" 340-380 pound man I can buy those claims in the mid 400s for his bench press.

By comparison, Dwight Howard is credited with a 345 pound bench press, I believe he claimed that in 2007 or 2008. Again, I could buy that, Dwight is huge in his upper body, but unlike Shaq, he's not really that strong compared to many other centers on the court because of lower body strength. I mean, Yao can reportedly bench 300-310, but we've seen that Dwight can't overpower him. And Ben Wallace can reportedly 460 so roughly Shaq's reported bench, but we saw Shaq overpower him, part of that was height, but also strength.

I have a much easier time buying some of the claims about Wilt's weight lifting than vertical leap. I mean, it's not hard to buy that a 7'1", 300 or so pound athlete who was well conditioned and a regular weight lifter could bench over 400 or even the 465 figure that one article cited. However Wilt benching 550 at Kansas when he weighed 240 isn't plausible, IMO.

However, the article that claimed he could bench 400 without breathing hard was from 1964, I believe Wilt entered training camp that year at 290 pounds, atleast according to Robert Cherry's book and that was all muscle, so I won't argue that one.

I wouldn't be surprised if Wilt could bench more than Shaq, but I doubt he was stronger than him because Wilt had very skinny legs and a lot of posting up is lower-body strength. Jason Maxiell exposed Dwight for his lack of lower-body strength in the 2008 playoffs.

On a side note, I do think early 70's Wilt could do a good job against Shaq defensively, probably about as good as anyone I can think of in history, while nobody could stop prime Shaq 1 on 1, the bulked up defensive specialist version of Wilt would probably make him work for his points.

[alexandreben]

nobody could stop prime Shaq 1 on 1
that really depends on the rules...

if Shaq played in the 60's, he will be playing less than 30min due to foul trouble

[alexandreben]

plus, Shaq couldn't stop Ewing, Hakeem scoring either

[jlauber]

I'm not going to doubt that Wilt could bench press 465 in his weight lifting days or later career.

By the way Shaq's reported bench press as we discussed before is credited at 445, 455 and 465 across the internet. So the 445 figure you cited was listed, but so was the 465 figure I remembered seeing. Interestingly enough, one of your articles had him at 450. Again, I don't know how much he could really bench, but what i do know is that he's the strongest player of his era and I'd say the same thing about Wilt. Shaq did get into weight lifting a lot with the Lakers when he was also noticeably bigger than his younger years so for a 7'1"-7'2" 340-380 pound man I can buy those claims in the mid 400s for his bench press.

By comparison, Dwight Howard is credited with a 345 pound bench press, I believe he claimed that in 2007 or 2008. Again, I could buy that, Dwight is huge in his upper body, but unlike Shaq, he's not really that strong compared to many other centers on the court because of lower body strength. I mean, Yao can reportedly bench 300-310, but we've seen that Dwight can't overpower him. And Ben Wallace can reportedly 460 so roughly Shaq's reported bench, but we saw Shaq overpower him, part of that was height, but also strength.

I have a much easier time buying some of the claims about Wilt's weight lifting than vertical leap. I mean, it's not hard to buy that a 7'1", 300 or so pound athlete who was well conditioned and a regular weight lifter could bench over 400 or even the 465 figure that one article cited. However Wilt benching 550 at Kansas when he weighed 240 isn't plausible, IMO.

However, the article that claimed he could bench 400 without breathing hard was from 1964, I believe Wilt entered training camp that year at 290 pounds, atleast according to Robert Cherry's book and that was all muscle, so I won't argue that one.

I wouldn't be surprised if Wilt could bench more than Shaq, but I doubt he was stronger than him because Wilt had very skinny legs and a lot of posting up is lower-body strength. Jason Maxiell exposed Dwight for his lack of lower-body strength in the 2008 playoffs.

On a side note, I do think early 70's Wilt could do a good job against Shaq defensively, probably about as good as anyone I can think of in history, while nobody could stop prime Shaq 1 on 1, the bulked up defensive specialist version of Wilt would probably make him work for his points.

Agreed. Excellent post.

Regarding Wilt...he was clearly ahead of his time...but one can only wonder how much bigger and stronger he would today, with all the advancements in modern technology. Same with his leaping ability. His techinque, as I have said before, was simply awful. He was leaping with sheer athletic ability.

No matter what his actual vertical was, he was still the highest leaper in the league even in his last season (and I am not talking about vertical leap, so much as actual height reached.) I mentioned the story of him coaching San Diego, at age 37, and dressed in a suit-and-tie, and knocking a ball out of a guidewire that none of his players could reach, including 6-11 "jumpin" Caldwell Jones.

Of course, his shot-blocking has become legendary here, as well. I believe Psileas posted numbers in his last season that would have been about 7 bpg. I listened to, or watched, every game in his 71-72 season, and I am pretty convinced that he was better than 7 bpg (maybe much better.) All at an advanced age, at over 300 lbs, and on a surgically repaired knee. His ability to routinely block Kareem's sky-hook, in Kareem's physical prime, speaks volumes about his incredible leaping ability.

And, you are right, I don't think Wilt could have stopped Shaq defensively, one-on-one, although it would have been an interesting battle. There are so many amazing stories of Wilt's strength, many of them even unintentional, that you have to wonder what a truly motivated Chamberlain would have been capable of. Clearly, there was no one in his era that could come close to him in terms of strength and power. I have said it before, but if Wilt would have played like Shaq, either they would have thrown the record book out altogether, or the league would have instituted some more "anti-Wilt" rules.

As for Shaq...he is a great example of those that would argue that today's players are better than those of yesteryear. IMHO there hasn't been a center in the league since Shaq came in in 1993, that is close to him...especially a Shaq circa 2000. And, I seriously doubt we will see anything close to him over the next 10-20 years, either. I look at someone like Greg Oden, who had so much hype, and yet, in reality, he is nowhere near as powerful as either Shaq or Wilt, nor nearly as skilled as Kareem or Olajuwon. If Oden is the best that the NBA can offer (other than Howard...who, IMHO, is also not close to the other's I mentioned)...then Shaq's legacy is certainly safe.

In fact, I am actually perplexed at the criticism that Shaq has received here recently (I know, I have brought up some of his "failures", too...but IMHO, he has been the most dominant player since Wilt.) Shaq has played 18 years, and probably about 14 at as high a level as anyone in the last 35 years, and yet, he gets ripped quite often. I am a huge Kobe fan...but the reality is/was...Shaq was more dominant, at his peak, than Kobe has been or will be. Not a knock on Kobe, but let's get real here...those of us that actually witnessed Shaq in that "three-peat" will attest to his absolute dominance. The "Hack-a-Shaq" was not done because of his FT shooting, but because nothing else worked. Coaches were essentially waving the "white flag."

Anyway...and one more time...I really respect your opinions. In fact, I was amazed at your stated age. You seem to be exceptionally knowledgeable considering just how young you are. Obviously you do your research, and whether I agree with you, or not, I certainly respect your opinions. We are better off learning from each other on this forum, than strictly bashing each other (and that goes for everyone here.) There are several quality posters here...and we can learn from each other.

[ashlar]

50s and 60s players are so overrated its stupid. If the superstars of today were to play against the superstars of back then it would be a massacre even worse than the Dream Team vs Angola.

Source: common sense

[jlauber]

50s and 60s players are so overrated its stupid. If the superstars of today were to play against the superstars of back then it would be a massacre even worse than the Dream Team vs Angola.

Source: common sense

I posted a thread about something similar a while back...

I believe that the '68 USA Olympic team COULD have been the greatest "Dream Team" of all-time...

Russell
Reed
Lucas
Frazier
Thurmond
Barry
Oscar
West
Hawkins
Chamberlain

Alcindor
Hayes
Maravich

Obviously, Alcindor (Kareem), Hayes, and Maravich were in college, but a pretty impressive roster.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Agreed. Excellent post.

Regarding Wilt...he was clearly ahead of his time...but one can only wonder how much bigger and stronger he would today, with all the advancements in modern technology. Same with his leaping ability. His techinque, as I have said before, was simply awful. He was leaping with sheer athletic ability.

No matter what his actual vertical was, he was still the highest leaper in the league even in his last season (and I am not talking about vertical leap, so much as actual height reached.) I mentioned the story of him coaching San Diego, at age 37, and dressed in a suit-and-tie, and knocking a ball out of a guidewire that none of his players could reach, including 6-11 "jumpin" Caldwell Jones.

Of course, his shot-blocking has become legendary here, as well. I believe Psileas posted numbers in his last season that would have been about 7 bpg. I listened to, or watched, every game in his 71-72 season, and I am pretty convinced that he was better than 7 bpg (maybe much better.) All at an advanced age, at over 300 lbs, and on a surgically repaired knee. His ability to routinely block Kareem's sky-hook, in Kareem's physical prime, speaks volumes about his incredible leaping ability.

And, you are right, I don't think Wilt could have stopped Shaq defensively, one-on-one, although it would have been an interesting battle. There are so many amazing stories of Wilt's strength, many of them even unintentional, that you have to wonder what a truly motivated Chamberlain would have been capable of. Clearly, there was no one in his era that could come close to him in terms of strength and power. I have said it before, but if Wilt would have played like Shaq, either they would have thrown the record book out altogether, or the league would have instituted some more "anti-Wilt" rules.

I look at someone like Greg Oden, who had so much hype, and yet, in reality, he is nowhere near as powerful as either Shaq or Wilt, nor nearly as skilled as Kareem or Olajuwon. If Oden is the best that the NBA can offer (other than Howard...who, IMHO, is also not close to the other's I mentioned)...then Shaq's legacy is certainly safe.

Anyway...and one more time...I really respect your opinions. In fact, I was amazed at your stated age. You seem to be exceptionally knowledgeable considering just how young you are. Obviously you do your research, and whether I agree with you, or not, I certainly respect your opinions. We are better off learning from each other on this forum, than strictly bashing each other (and that goes for everyone here.) There are several quality posters here...and we can learn from each other.

As far as Oden? Well, I think he has a ton of potential. In just 24 mpg, he averaged 11.1 rpg, 8.5 rpg and 2.3 bpg on 60.5% shooting and 76.6% from the line. He has a pretty good touch, he's a natural as far as rebounding, shot blocking and defense. Foul trouble was a problem, but that won't be what will hold him back. I've never seen foul trouble end up the difference between a player being good and great. If he doesn't achieve his potential it'll likely be because of health.

He's a great athlete when healthy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8fv810QfY8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7HzkEcKITo#t=0m55s

And he's very strong. Stronger than Howard and Bynum. Oden backing into Mutombo here reminds me of Shaq in the 2001 finals. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hmgn9zkx2Ow#t=7m04s

Greg Oden is one of those great shot blockers who keeps the ball in play after his blocks. You can see this in any of his highlight mixes.

Well, even though I'm only in my 20's I did start watching basketball young and I was hooked from the time I was a kid. That was when jordan was in the league and basketball was exciting here in NY thanks to Ewing and the tough teams with Starks, Oakley, Mason, Harper ect. I love the game of basketball in general so i've always been interested in the history of the game and I watch older games whenever I get a chance, thankfully there are plenty of games available from the 80's both regular season and playoffs, some gems from the 70's with prime Kareem and Walton, but unfortunately, not much from the 60's.

[plowking]

that really depends on the rules...

if Shaq played in the 60's, he will be playing less than 30min due to foul trouble

No he wouldn't. :oldlol:

Do you realize how physical the league allowed Chamberlain and Russell to be on the inside? Not just them, but other centers.

[Pointguard]

That brings us to Kareem..."the NBA bridge." Kareem was hanging three straight games of 35, 42, and 46 on Hakeem in the 85-86, and at age 39! We all know that Hakeem went on to be generally regarded as the best center in the league in the 90's. He certainly gave Shaq all he could handle in 1995. Shaq, of course, became the dominant player of the 00's. However, for all of Kareem's greatness, he STRUGGLED against BOTH Nate Thurmond and Wilt...and BOTH of those guys were well past their primes. Kareem, in his statistical prime, in the 70-71, 71-72, and 72-73 seasons, did not shoot even 50% against Nate and Wilt, ONE time, in five post-season series. In fact, in a couple of them he barely cleared 40%. And, against Wilt, in Chamberlain's last season, in six regular season games, he was outshot by Chamberlain, .637 to .450. And, once again, both Nate and Wilt were well past their primes. Futhermore, Chamberlain dominated Thurmond early in his career, and thoroughly outrebounded and outshot him in every post-season. In some early games he crushed Thurmond (in one game he outscored him 45-13.) Wilt outrebounded Thurmond in every post-season, as well as held him to below 40% (some WAY below 40%) in EVERY post-season battle (while never shooting less than 50% himself.)


On the bridge tip, Robert Parrish was asked who was the strongest player he faced, he said Artest Gilmore. Not Shaq. Wilt had no problem with Gilmore. Great post again J.

[jlauber]

On the bridge tip, Robert Parrish was asked who was the strongest player he faced, he said Artest Gilmore. Not Shaq. Wilt had no problem with Gilmore. Great post again J.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1R6UI738MI&NR=1

[Pointguard]

On a side note, I do think early 70's Wilt could do a good job against Shaq defensively, probably about as good as anyone I can think of in history, while nobody could stop prime Shaq 1 on 1, the bulked up defensive specialist version of Wilt would probably make him work for his points.

Great post my fellow Knick fan,

Yeah Shaq's quick foot movement and mass would have made him pretty much unstoppable. I agree there. Shaq complained about foul calls while Boston was allowed to climb all over you and karate chop Chamberlain so this is a hard measure as to how much they would let Chamberlain get away with. It would not matter how things would be called when Wilt has the ball. Rebounds, blocked shots, endurance, post moves, scoring know how and activity would have heavily favored Wilt.

I think scoring knowhow is greatly underestimated. If D Howard had scoring knowhow and savvy, even at the level of a young Amare Stoudamire he would be of more conversation than Shaq, since he will leave the league with at least ten titles for bounds and blocked shots as well. Shaq was never a complete center like Kareem or Wilt.

[Pointguard]

Wilt blocked 17 shots in his first game along with 43 points and 28 boards. There are several reports of him having back to back 20 block games. So the next argument will be that people back then were blockheaded and aimed the ball at Wilt's hands.

Some Celtics would say he would block 25 shots in a game and those guys were HOF's.

Walt Bellamy was leading the league in FG percentage and rocking 30 ppg as a rookie proving himself to be a proficient scorer and one that could make adjustments - a great year for the HOFer Bellamy until he met Wilt. Wilt blocked his first nine shots and then said "you can score now little fellow."

Regardless of what you are thinking it requires crazy timing, explosion and will to go after 20 shots while you are getting 20 boards and getting 40ppg while rarely sitting down the whole season. His activity level was off the hook.

[Pointguard]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1R6UI738MI&NR=1

THANKS FOR THE ASSIST J.

[Fatal9]

About Wilt's max high jump which was 6'6:


I think people overlook the fact that from his feet to his waist, Wilt was freakishly long. I'd estimate he was about 4.5 feet tall at his waist. High jump is all about getting the lower half of your body over the bar (ie. getting your waist over) and the rest of your body will follow, especially the way the old schoolers jumped.

What he lacked for in his vertical jump, he makes up easily with his long legs. Wilt essentially had a foot higher head start over your typical high jumper because of this. He needs to jump only about 2 feet to get his waist level with the bar. Measuring purely the vertical part of his jump, he needs to jump about ~ 2.5 feet to clear the bar with his waist and then time his legs to cross as well. Notice here, it's all about getting his waist about half a foot over the bar:

http://i30.tinypic.com/18g7f5.jpg

It's great coordination for a man his size, but the freakishly long lower half of his body is what make him a great high jumper, not his vertical (which is quite average). The fact his highest jump was 6'6, only further confirms that his vertical was in the 30-33 inch range, because that's exactly the height you'd expect him to max out at.

LOL @ 42+ inches. Yea, I'm sure Wilt had a higher vertical than MJ and Vince. Makes me wonder how these people function in real life with such little common sense. Nothing worse than stans who go out of their way to exaggerate their favorite athlete's feats. There's no doubt in my mind Russell had a higher vertical leap, he cleared 6'8 while being much shorter and would routinely win jumpballs against him.

6'6 btw wouldn't even get you a medal at high school regionals these days. You need to be jumping at least 6'8-6'10 to even get a scholarship. Russell got up to 6'10 which is impressive (but not even close to being world class today, which is at least 7'4+ today), and I've always said Russell could jump higher than Wilt and that only further confirms it.

James White, who has a 44 inch vertical and is 6'7, can clear 7'4 despite having terrible form and jumping only part-time:

http://i35.tinypic.com/2r6yvrq.jpg

^ THIS is what a real 43-45 inch vertical looks like. Wilt despite possessing this 45+ inch vertical (shit even 40+ inches), can only clear 6'6, and that's mainly because of his freakishly long legs.

Use some logic here...James White who is 6'7, doesn't have the long legs of Wilt/Russell, has a 44 inch vertical jumps 7'4 despite having terrible form, but Wilt (who maxes out at 6'6) and Russell (maxes out at 6'10), who not only have a height advantage in that their waist is higher, jump 40+ inches? The high jump argument makes no sense. I've said Wilt's max vertical was probably around 30-33 inches, which is excellent, and looking at his high jump stats, that's exactly what you'd expect him to jump as I quoted above.

Again, quit overrating the hell out of these guys.

[Showtime]

So...people are trying to argue that James White can almost make it (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nh6Dho5J0_I) and come within an inch or two, but 6'9" and 7 foot high-jumpers can't even come close?

[jlauber]

About Wilt's max high jump which was 6'6:



6'6 btw wouldn't even get you a medal at high school regionals these days. You need to be jumping at least 6'8-6'10 to even get a scholarship. Russell got up to 6'10 which is impressive (but not even close to being world class today, which is at least 7'5+ today), and I've always said Russell could jump higher than Wilt and that only further confirms it.

James White, who has a 44 inch vertical and is 6'7, can clear 7'4 despite having terrible form:

http://i35.tinypic.com/2r6yvrq.jpg

^ THIS is what a real 43-45 inch vertical looks like. Wilt despite possessing this 45+ inch vertical (shit even 40+ inches), can only clear 6'6, and that's mainly because of his freakishly long legs.

Use some logic here...James White who is 6'7, doesn't have the long legs of Wilt/Russell, has a 44 inch vertical jumps 7'4 despite having terrible form, but Wilt (who maxes out at 6'6) and Russell (maxes out at 6'10), who not only have a height advantage in that their waist is higher, jump 40+ inches? The high jump argument makes no sense. I've said Wilt's max vertical was probably around 30-33 inches, which is excellent, and looking at his high jump stats, that's exactly what you'd expect him to jump as I quoted above.

I am so sick of your NONSENSE. Wilt had TERRIBLE form...and jumped PART-TIME. And all of that was BEFORE the "Fosbury Flop" era of today.

ONE MORE TIME:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fosbury_Flop

"The Fosbury Flop is a style used in the athletics event of high jump. It was popularized and perfected by American athlete Dick Fosbury, whose gold medal in the 1968 Summer Olympics brought it to the world's attention. Over the next few years the flop became the dominant style of the event and remains so today. Before Fosbury, most elite jumpers used the Straddle technique, Western Roll, Eastern cut-off or even Scissors-Jump to clear the bar. Given that landing surfaces had previously been sandpits or low piles of matting, high jumpers of earlier years had to land on their feet or at least land carefully to prevent injury. With the advent of deep foam matting high jumpers were able to be more adventurous in their landing styles and hence experiment with styles of jumping and giving jumpers about 25% higher jumps"

Wilt's coach believed that Wilt would have been clearing 7-0 BTW, had he devoted himself to it...instead of being a member of KU's 4x100 team, their 440 team, their 880 team, their HIGH-JUMP team (and a Big-7 champ BTW), their LONG-JUMP team, their TRIPLE-JUMP team, and their shot-put team...ALL, in ADDITION to playing basketball.

Look, we have RESPECTED EYE-WITNESS accounts of Wilt touching the top of the backboard (13 ft.) We have eye-witness accts of Wilt dunking on a 12 ft rim. We have RULES put in place, aimed strictly at Wilt, banning the dunking of FT's, which Wilt was doing. Wilt was at LEAST 7-1 (and I am convinced he was at least 7-2 BTW), with a MEASURED 7'-8" wingspan. Combine that with his INCREDIBLE athleticism, and what is the question?

I don't know what Wilt's maximum vertical was, BUT, I am CONVINCED that other NBA player has ever reached the PINNACLE that Wilt did, which was probably well over 13 ft.

And Russell was right there with him. Abe posted an article in which Russell's wingspan was greater than Kareem's. Given the fact that Russell could easily have outjumped Kareem, what does that tell you?

[jlauber]

Incidently has there EVER been a more "anti-Wilt" poster in the history of this board, than Fatal9?

His LONE agenda here has been to disparage EVERY single accomplishment of Wilt, and at the same time, forgive all the failures of HIS idol, Kareem, who had PLENTY of them...particularly against a Chamberlain who was well past his peak, and who thoroughly outplayed Kareem before his injury.

He has ripped Wilt for his 62-63 season, for "stats padding", despite the fact that that single season may have been the GREATEST INDIVIDUAL season in NBA HISTORY.

He has ripped Wilt for his stats, despite the fact that they occurred against TWELVE HOF centers. Not only that, but he DOMINATED them all.

Of course, he will rip MJ, here too...but when it comes to MJ or Wilt...then all of a sudden Jordan was a GREAT player.

He obviously has a clear-cut agenda against Wilt...whom he NEVER actually SAW play.

[Fatal9]

So...people are trying to argue that James White can almost make it (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nh6Dho5J0_I) and come within an inch or two, but 6'9" and 7 foot high-jumpers can't even come close?
James White also has a 10-12+ inch vertical advantage against these guys. His standing reach is 8'9 (add 3-4 inches because of extension from one side of body), and he probably jumps about 12'10 there. He is jumping 45-46 inches there and not making it. Wilt's standing reach was 9'6 (when extending one side of his body probably about 9'9), and he'd need to jump around 40 inches to get the top. Russell's standing reach is less than Wilt's and I'd guess he needs 42-44 inches to make it to the top (that's passing Michael Jordan territory). In other words: not happening. 12 foot dunk I can buy because Wilt needs to jump 31-33 inches to reach that. You can keep believing these ludicrous eye witness accounts from the 60s though of 6'2 Earl Manigault, 6'3 David Thompson, 6'6 Gus Johnson pulling out 50+ inch verticals to do it.

[whatever666]

You people have to understand that size and wingspan (or reach) matters very much!!
A 30" inch vertical allows a taller guy to get much higher up than a 6 footer with a 30" inch vertical.....

Here is some mathematics for you, for example =

If you are 7

[Psileas]

Incidently has there EVER been a more "anti-Wilt" poster in the history of this board, than Fatal9?

Well, I wouldn't call BULLS a normal poster, more like a super-troll, but he was as comical as hell. If you didn't read him, you are lucky.
Once he'd post that he owned videos of full 60's NBA seasons, saw these players live and repeatedly trashed them, trying to argue seriously stuff like whether Thurmond could dunk or not or whether Robertson could dribble without looking the ball. :oldlol: Then, he'd get banned, login with a new account and claim new stuff, like him having a 50-inch vertical (never mind his supposed age) or that Russell was maybe a top-20 center all-time. About 20-25% of my ignore list includes his various accounts. After a while, his posts had become so transparent that I'd add his new accounts to my ignore list after reading a single post of his.

Maybe you have seen him in some other forum. He was getting banned wherever he stepped. In RealGM he got banned within 1 week or so...His style was this: "Listen kid, I forgot more basketball than you ever saw. I watched Wilt live and I assure you he dominated because of the WEAK competition of the era. Competition was WEAK back then!".

[LilMattWieters]

Ahh, arguing in circles. Love it.

[jlauber]

Well, I wouldn't call BULLS a normal poster, more like a super-troll, but he was as comical as hell. If you didn't read him, you are lucky.
Once he'd post that he owned videos of full 60's NBA seasons, saw these players live and repeatedly trashed them, trying to argue seriously stuff like whether Thurmond could dunk or not or whether Robertson could dribble without looking the ball. :oldlol: Then, he'd get banned, login with a new account and claim new stuff, like him having a 50-inch vertical (never mind his supposed age) or that Russell was maybe a top-20 center all-time. About 20-25% of my ignore list includes his various accounts. After a while, his posts had become so transparent that I'd add his new accounts to my ignore list after reading a single post of his.

Maybe you have seen him in some other forum. He was getting banned wherever he stepped. In RealGM he got banned within 1 week or so...His style was this: "Listen kid, I forgot more basketball than you ever saw. I watched Wilt live and I assure you he dominated because of the WEAK competition of the era. Competition was WEAK back then!".

Well, I am probably a relative new-comer to this forum, so I am not sure if I ever read anything by that guy.

And, actually Fatal9 is an intelligent poster. I have even quoted some of his research here (Kareem vs. Hakeem in the mid-80's, and MJ against the "Bad Boys" in the late 80's.)

But, I just don't get it. His "anti-Wilt" posts are almost comical. He rips Wilt for playing 48 mpg. He rips Wilt for "stats-padding", and then rips Wilt for not scoring enough in some of his playoff battles. He rips Wilt's competition, many of whom are in the HOF. He rips Wilt for being a "loser" but won't acknowledge that Kareem was an even greater disappointment until Magic carried those Laker teams to five titles in the 80's. He rips Wilt for his "inefficient" scoring seasons (Wilt was shooting between .500 to .540 in those seasons), but does not acknowledge that Kareem had FOUR seasons, in the 70's (and before Magic raised his FG% considerably in the 80's) of .539, .529, .518, and .513. AND, he does not mention that Wilt's 62-63 season was statistically "off the charts"... 44.8 ppg on .528 shooting in a league that shot .441 (or Wilt's 65-66 season when he scored 33.5 ppg on .540 shooting in a league that shot .433) Or that his "scoring" seasons and efficiency blow away Hakeem's and Robinson's BEST seasons.

He uses era against Wilt for rebounding, despite the fact, that even taking era into account, Wilt is STILL the greatest rebounder ever...especially if you take the post-season into account. Or that Wilt, at his peak, was probably the greatest defensive center of all-time. He was holding the "efficient" Kareem to a CAREER .464 FG% in 28 H2H meetings...all on a surgically repaired knee and at 11 years older (including .457 in the '71-72 WCF's...and .414 over the last four games of that series...or that he held Kareem to .450 in their six regular season games in Wilt's LAST season.) Or that Wilt consistently outrebounded the younger and taller Kareem. Or that Wilt thoroughly outplayed Kareem in their only meeting before Wilt's injury.

Or that Wilt, AFTER retirement, and in the early 80's, dominated a game in which Magic Johnson played (as seen by none other than Larry Brown.) Or that in the mid-80's, and in his late 40's, Wilt was seen to have just abused 7-4 Mark Eaton (as witnessed by Kiki Vandewege.)

Maybe Wilt could not jump 48" as he himself claims. I am convinced that no one else has ever reached the heights that Wilt did. And, the vast majority of those that played with, or against Wilt...or who coached with, or against Wilt,...or the vast majority of the media that covered Wilt...would say he was the strongest, highest leaping, and perhaps, the fastest player to have ever played.

Or that those that actually SAW Wilt play, like the well-respected coach Red Holzman, would attest to his OUTSIDE shooting skills. Or that he was routinely scoring 30 and 40 ppg against Russell, for cryingoutloud, who, was a world-class athlete in his own right. Or that Wilt outplayed every oppsoing center in his 29 post-season series, some by HUGE margins, (and he faced a HOF center in 112 of those 160 games.)

I could go on-and-on. Most everyone here has read it all already. But, in any case, I just don't understand it.

[AirJordan23]

Fatal9 is probably my favorite poster on here. Posts are always a good read and he knows his stuff. And I say this despite his anti MJ agenda. That thread he made about getting a KB tat had me in tears.

[Jasper]

Back in the 70's I caught wind that Bucks Curtis Perry could touch the top of the backboard.
I looked for all possible articles etc ... to no avail.

I finally got a hold of one of his old teammates , and asked him.
He said absolutely 'NO'

** But as an ex NBA player he did tell me that with in the league (we are talking about players) Wilt and Bill were said to have done it.

*That's all I got on this subject.

[nbacardDOTnet]

Great and interesting Thread. I will see later.

BTW, this is Wilt.
(just want to share)

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/Wilt%20Chamberlain/GIFs/wilt2.gif

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/Wilt%20Chamberlain/-ECB2B4EC9E84EBB28CEBA6B07.jpg

[joyner82]

Did some idiot really just say that LeBron is 6'9? I guess Durant is 7'1 then

http://www.pba.com/images_upload/gallery/GD_61_9_24_2008_9_45_10_AM.jpg

[jlauber]

Great and interesting Thread. I will see later.

BTW, this is Wilt.
(just want to share)

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/Wilt%20Chamberlain/GIFs/wilt2.gif

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/Wilt%20Chamberlain/-ECB2B4EC9E84EBB28CEBA6B07.jpg

Great stuff. One can only wonder how high he could have jumped had he focused on the high jump.


Back in the 70's I caught wind that Bucks Curtis Perry could touch the top of the backboard.
I looked for all possible articles etc ... to no avail.

I finally got a hold of one of his old teammates , and asked him.
He said absolutely 'NO'

** But as an ex NBA player he did tell me that with in the league (we are talking about players) Wilt and Bill were said to have done it.

*That's all I got on this subject.

Thanks for sharing. Another poster claimed that Jon McGlocklin, another Bucks player, sent him a letter (or an email) claiming that it was common knowledge that both Wilt and Russell could touch the top of the backboard.

Sonny Hill is on record as saying that he witnessed Chamberlain touching the backboard (and he asked Kareem, and Kareem told him that he [Kareem] could not.) Incidently, Wilt was outjumping BOTH Kareem and even Gilmore, late in his career.

And in Cherry's book (or Rosen's...I can't remember), there is a story told by someone on the Conquistadors, about Wilt being the only guy that could not a ball down that was stuck up high in a guidewire...and he was dressed in a suit and tie. Not even 6-11 "Jumpin" Caldwell Jones could touch it, ....and Wilt was 37 at the time!

[chazzy]

Not sure if this was posted

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/4307/james-white-vs-a-jumping-myth

[whatever666]

@Joyner82

Thats a ridicilously bad camera angle......

Yes, i said Lebron is 6

[joyner82]

Dwight Howard is 6'10
Carmelo Anthony is 6'7

As for LeBron being almost dead even with Prince, get real. This picture was taken in the summer of 2008 when LeBron was 23 years old. The white line is touching the top of Prince's head. LeBron is a full 1-1 1/2 inches below it meaning he's roughly 2~ inches shorter than Prince.

But yes he's clearly 6'9, GTFO. He's barely taller than the 6'7 Anthony and clearly shorter than the 6 8 1/2 Boozer.

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/5107/lebrony.jpg

Durant on the other hand is a legit 6 10 1/2, combine measurement, and I wouldn't be surprised if he's 6'11 now.

Hell they aranged the players in order based on height...he's somewhere in between 6'7(Anthony) and 6 8 1/2(Boozer).

[PHILA]

I am so sick of your NONSENSE. Wilt had TERRIBLE form...and jumped PART-TIME. And all of that was BEFORE the "Fosbury Flop" era of today.

ONE MORE TIME:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fosbury_Flop


And Russell was right there with him. Abe posted an article in which Russell's wingspan was greater than Kareem's. Given the fact that Russell could easily have outjumped Kareem, what does that tell you?


Chamberlain jumped with appears to be a Straddle technique based on the description.

9 seconds into the vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6k539HSbXM





http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2008/apr/16/quantum_leap/

'Bud Smith developed lots of success jumping this way. He spent one successful year at Northern Illinois in 1955, where he said his accomplishments started becoming publicized nationally. Smith's name reached the desk of KU coach Bill Easton, who invited him to the 1956 Relays with the promise that he'd get a chance to meet Chamberlain.
The 6-foot-3 Smith never felt so small.

"I had never met a man seven feet tall before," Smith said. "I have pretty good-sized hands, and Wilt just wrapped his hands around mine."

Smith never took a picture of him with Chamberlain. He had no camera and really saw Chamberlain as an equal in track and field during those two encounters.

But the video is the next-best thing, if not better. There was Smith, one shoe on, flinging himself over the bar and landing in the sand pit. And there was Chamberlain getting every bit of his long legs wrapped over the bar somehow.

Other high jumpers were filmed, too, and many used different ways to get over the bar. One jumper even tried to flat-out hurdle it.

Now, the Fosbury Flop dominates elite high-jump competitions. Smith will admit that the new approach works, but he doesn't prefer it. Heck, it was impossible to do in the 1950s because high jumpers back then landed in a pit of sand or saw dust. A Fosbury Flopper could get seriously hurt.

"Back in my day, you had a variety of styles and techniques. It was fun to watch," Smith said. "Then you have a Fosbury jumper. If you've seen one, you've seen them all."'






I've always said Russell could jump higher than Wilt

Whether or not this is true, there is no question Russell was a 'quicker' leaper with magnificent 'cat like' reflexes. As noted by undersized top rebounds Barkley & Rodman, how high you jump is not nearly as important as how quickly you get off the ground. It would appear that Chamberlain was putting an enormous amount of stress on his knees over the years as noted by his annual shin splints, eventually leading to his knee injury in '68/'69.

Imagine if he was fortunate enough to play on the luxurious multi-layered padded hardwood courts of today in top notch NBA arenas as opposed to a single layered wooden floor, often with dead spots or nails sticking out of the floor and the outside weather being a factor in these games any time the door opened.



"It's a run up and down the court and dunk the ball game now. These are speed merchants and jumping fools. That's why their shooting percentages are going way up. I led the league 11 times in field goal percentage and my lifetime average was 54%. There are now five billion guys shooting over 54%. Can you imagine playing when your hands are so cold and the ball is as hard as a brick? I can remember going to Detroit and playing the old Detroit Arena and there's about 3000 people in this big old huge thing. Every time they opened the door, the wind blows through. I can vividly remember Paul Arizin blowing into his hands and the smoke was blowing out of his nose. Guys were shooting 37%, and these were great shooters. People look at that any say, 'Is that a basketball player or was he on a blind team?' They don't know how to put that into perspective."

-1985

[ShaqAttack3234]

He rips Wilt for being a "loser" but won't acknowledge that Kareem was an even greater disappointment until Magic carried those Laker teams to five titles in the 80's.

Not this again.......no wait, I don't have the time to explain everything wrong with this statement for the 400th time. :facepalm

[jlauber]

Because you CAN'T. Magic was voted ahead of Kareem in the MVP balloting in EIGHT of their TEN seasons together. Kareem played on average Laker teams for FOUR years, and his teams were eliminated in the early rounds every year, including a sweeping loss to a Blazer team with a worse record.

AND, after Kareem retired, the Lakers IMPROVED from a 57-25 record to 63-19. Furthermore, they went to yet another Finals withOUT Kareem a year later.

Then, when Magic retired, the Lakers went back to the average team they were BEFORE Magic. CLEARLY, Magic CARRIED those Laker teams. Hell, they even won their FIRST title with Kareem watching Magic's game six performance from his couch.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Because you CAN'T. Magic was voted ahead of Kareem in the MVP balloting in EIGHT of their TEN seasons together. Kareem played on average Laker teams for FOUR years, and his teams were eliminated in the early rounds every year, including a sweeping loss to a Blazer team with a worse record.

AND, after Kareem retired, the Lakers IMPROVED from a 57-25 record to 63-19. Furthermore, they went to yet another Finals withOUT Kareem a year later.

Then, when Magic retired, the Lakers went back to the average team they were BEFORE Magic. CLEARLY, Magic CARRIED those Laker teams. Hell, they even won their FIRST title with Kareem watching Magic's game six performance from his couch.

Ehhh, congratulations, you baited me into explaining what's wrong with that statement.

Kareem won a finals MVP at 38 ****ing years old! Kareem was the best player in the league in 1980 when they won their first title.

Yes, Magic improved the Lakers, but what do you think happens if you take Kareem of those '80-'85 Laker teams, hell, he even had a big impact in '87 at 39/40 years old, though by that point, Magic was clearly the best player on that team.

And Kareem retired at 42 years old........

You can't carry a team when you have a teammate who is the team's best scorer, by far their best halfcourt player, a bigger defensive presence and the go to guy down the stretch.

Magic didn't carry those teams, he had great teammates and he wasn't the best player on a few of those Laker teams. You can carry teams to the playoffs like Kobe in '06 or Wade in '09, but you notice that neither team got out of the first round? That's because you need a good team to win a title.

You don't carry teams to titles, it takes a great team effort to win titles. And don't act like Kareem wasn't close to Magic for that run. He was the CLEAR best player and league MVP in 1980, Magic wasn't the clear best player on a championship team until 1987.

[alexandreben]

KAJ was always the first option before 87', at the mean time, Magic is the brain and soul of the team, no one can deny that either.

[La Frescobaldi]

Thank you, this is much more logical than most of the posts.

Why is it that NONE of the athletes in the NBA in the last 40 years can do it, yet there are claims of 4-5 players from the 60's doing it and people believe it?

The burden of proof is not on us to prove they can't, if you claim you can do something you better have some evidence.

I've seen Dwight touch 12'6", that's still 6 inches short.
*******************************************

Bumping an old thread.
It's interesting to read through this old board - people like kblaze for example, have an open mind, that it was at least possible for Chamberlain & Russell to have got to the top........ while most people flatly say it wasn't possible, or even stupid to say those guys could get anywhere close.

Really, skepticism has pretty much tipped over to cynicism.

But it is a fact that some game footage surfaced recently that shows a glimpse of Chamberlain's vertical:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EpVZS26BUs

Now all the pretty colors that guy painted on that clip is pretty much bullshite. And the angle of the camera is very deceptive.

Don't use the top of the backboard as reference in that Youtube clip - look at where he is in relation to the rim. You can clearly see that not only is Chamberlain's head above the rim, his shoulder is too. Basically his armpit is at rim level.

Given the fact that it would be 35" from the top of Chamberlain's 7'1&1/16" head to the 10' rim, that is at least a 42" vertical, and I suspect it is considerably more than that.

Given the fact that he was timing a blocked shot in a game, taking no step, and using his left or off hand for his reach........ he got mighty mighty close to the top in that old college footage.

I have little doubt that in a serious attempt to do his best vertical, he could have gotten higher than that - since his target here is not his highest leap, but the ball.

[Pushxx]

I repped you, La Frescobaldi. Great link, man.

I'm in Kblaze's camp: it seems feasible, and I'm more inclined to believe it's possible given what other top leapers have accomplished related to the feat.

[arifgokcen]

Lebron highest Jump (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNOOoZZB9BY)

Lebron Reach 8'11(draft day measurement 8'10.25 so its safe to assume he grew 0.75 including his arm length).Combined with his 44' vertical leap
8x12+11+44=151
or 12'7.
This is actually higher than MJ or vince this is the highest reach i can remember and validate by watching the video.

[PTB Fan]

Bill Russell had probably about 35 vertical inch. At max, i could i see him having 38-39.

[Lebron23]

Lebron highest Jump (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNOOoZZB9BY)

Lebron Reach 8'11(draft day measurement 8'10.25 so its safe to assume he grew 0.75 including his arm length).Combined with his 44' vertical leap
8x12+11+44=151
or 12'7.
This is actually higher than MJ or vince this is the highest reach i can remember and validate by watching the video.


This

LeBron is a legit 6'8". He's 4.25" taller than 6'3.75" Wade.


http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/dwyane-wade-and-lebron-james-of-the-miami-heat-poses-for-news-photo/138100882?esource=linkconn&aid=39902&asid=94532

http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/dwyane-wade-and-lebron-james-of-the-miami-heat-poses-for-news-photo/138100881?esource=linkconn&aid=39902&asid=94532

http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/dwyane-wade-and-lebron-james-of-the-miami-heat-poses-for-news-photo/138100888?esource=linkconn&aid=39902&asid=94532

[pauk]

:oldlol: No...

[pauk]

Lebron highest Jump (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNOOoZZB9BY)

Lebron Reach 8'11(draft day measurement 8'10.25 so its safe to assume he grew 0.75 including his arm length).Combined with his 44' vertical leap
8x12+11+44=151
or 12'7.
This is actually higher than MJ or vince this is the highest reach i can remember and validate by watching the video.

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/lbjhighjump.png

[Vienceslav]

Mo Williams alley oop skills.:roll:
btw is that the highest documented jump in game ? :pimp:

[LoneyROY7]

Here's Blake Griffin getting basically his entire head over the rim:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHLsBuzraTY

[OmniStrife]

:oldlol: OK, so athletes have regressed since the 60's. Yeah....the centers have that era could jump higher than the 5'6"-5'8" dunk champs like Spud Webb and Nate Robinson.

How can OP and his kind always miss this logic is beyond me.

Sure, there's no footage of these feats, or attempts at them.

However there is plenty of other footage of Wilt / Russel playing ball...

NOTHING in that footage could EVEN HINT at them topping today's above average athletes in verticals, or what not.


Then I get reminded of how Wilt supposedly had sex with 10,000 mountain lions,
or how he tossed a woman by her tail...
(or was it the other way around??)



...And I realize that logic has nothing to do with it.

[La Frescobaldi]

How can OP and his kind always miss this logic is beyond me.

Sure, there's no footage of these feats, or attempts at them.

However there is plenty of other footage of Wilt / Russel playing ball...

NOTHING in these videos could EVEN HINT at them topping today's above average athletes in verticals or what not.


Then I get reminded of how Wilt supposedly had sex with 10,000 mountain lions...
or how he tossed a woman by her tail...

(or was it the other way around??)

And I realize that logic has nothing to do with it.


look at Chamberlain's head and shoulder in relation to the rim.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EpVZS26BUs

[TheTruth11]

look at Chamberlain's head and shoulder in relation to the rim.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EpVZS26BUs


We have a winner. We have found the smoking gun!!!


That video should erase all doubts. Chamberlain rises like David Thompson used to rise. He just goes up and up and up. I used to wonder if anyone could touch the top. Not anymore. Based upon that video Chamberlain could definitely do it. He gets up atleast 44 inches. And now that Wilt has been proven right, I wouldn't be so fast to put it past Russell either.

Great thread by the way:applause:

[ralph_i_el]

serge ibaka did a free throw line dunk, and i bet he could get damn near the top of the backboard with his vertical.

[jlip]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6343150&postcount=13

[millwad]

I know that both Russell and Wilt had a great verticals but guys like Fresoblabla and Jlauber overrates their jump ability like crazy. Only an idiot would believe that Russell and Wilt had a vertical as good as or even better then Spud's..

Sure, Spud who had a 42 inch vertical looked like this when he dunked..

http://farm1.staticflickr.com/12/70076175_a9ca44336b.jpg

And we are supposed to trust idiots who claim that Wilt and Russell had 45 inch verticals, haha.. Wilt even claimed he had a 50 inch vertical..:facepalm

It's even said that Wilt used to dunk his FT's in high school, and as usual we have visual evidence..

[Scoooter]

look at Chamberlain's head and shoulder in relation to the rim.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EpVZS26BUs
That's a freakshow. :bowdown:

[millwad]

By the way, Jlauber and Fresblabla, what was Wilt's standing vertical?

[KevinNYC]

PTB, what are you basing that on? Just a hunch?

Frescobaldi, it does look like his armpit is at rim level.

The still photos at the beginning are amazing too. They look photoshopped, I wonder if folks can find the originals.

[Psileas]

It's even said that Wilt used to dunk his FT's in high school, and as usual we have visual evidence..

Yeah, it's "even" said this, as if a 7'1 guy with freakishly long arms would need a 40 or 50 inch vertical in order to perform this. :rolleyes: Samuel Dalembert, with nowhere near Wilt's speed almost pulled this off during a game and Toni Kukoc with nowhere near Wilt's length (and definitely not 40 inches of vertical) had no problems dunking from the FT line in a Croatian All Star competition (there exists UTube footage of this). But, knowing this, and having seen some more of Wilt's exploits, nope, we still need hard photographic evidence for the extraordinary claim of achieving the apex of basketball athleticism, dunkng from the FT line...


The still photos at the beginning are amazing too. They look photoshopped, I wonder if folks can find the originals.

I don't know what photos you're talking about, but if someone were to photoshop some photos of Wilt or Russell supposedly showing a 50-inch vertical, he'd do exactly this.
Some time ago, someone posted that photo of H.S Wilt playfully jumping over two bending teammates during some practice. Like half of the posters there believed that the photo was photoshopped because the shadows seemed somewhat weird (because, as seen by the crap told by conspiracy "geniuses" that believe Apollo 11 was a hoax, it's well known that humans have perfect perception of shadows...). Too bad the exact same image had appeared, among others, in a book older than any version of Photoshop/modern editing programs (I think it was "Tall Tales"). Yes, images could still be distorted back then, but you had to hire way more specialized people than nowadays, which would be a pretty stupid thing to do. Hire someone to distort some picture of Wilt, so that a bunch of nobodies in the future would not doubt about his abilities. Uh, OK. Hey, why only stay there, why not make up a few photos of Wilt dunking in 13-feet baskets too, then?

[La Frescobaldi]

Yeah, it's "even" said this, as if a 7'1 guy with freakishly long arms would need a 40 or 50 inch vertical in order to perform this. :rolleyes: Samuel Dalembert, with nowhere near Wilt's speed almost pulled this off during a game and Toni Kukoc with nowhere near Wilt's length (and definitely not 40 inches of vertical) had no problems dunking from the FT line in a Croatian All Star competition (there exists UTube footage of this). But, knowing this, and having seen some more of Wilt's exploits, nope, we still need hard photographic evidence for the extraordinary claim of achieving the apex of basketball athleticism, dunkng from the FT line...



I don't know what photos you're talking about, but if someone were to photoshop some photos of Wilt or Russell supposedly showing a 50-inch vertical, he'd do exactly this.
Some time ago, someone posted that photo of H.S Wilt playfully jumping over two bending teammates during some practice. Like half of the posters there believed that the photo was photoshopped because the shadows seemed somewhat weird (because, as seen by the crap told by conspiracy "geniuses" that believe Apollo 11 was a hoax, it's well known that humans have perfect perception of shadows...). Too bad the exact same image had appeared, among others, in a book older than any version of Photoshop/modern editing programs (I think it was "Tall Tales"). Yes, images could still be distorted back then, but you had to hire way more specialized people than nowadays, which would be a pretty stupid thing to do. Hire someone to distort some picture of Wilt, so that a bunch of nobodies in the future would not doubt about his abilities. Uh, OK. Hey, why only stay there, why not make up a few photos of Wilt dunking in 13-feet baskets too, then?

Psileas I think they are talking about the photos at the beginning of the footage of Chamberlain with his head and shoulder over the rim on blocked shot......


*******************************************

Bumping an old thread.
It's interesting to read through this old board - people like kblaze for example, have an open mind, that it was at least possible for Chamberlain & Russell to have got to the top........ while most people flatly say it wasn't possible, or even stupid to say those guys could get anywhere close.

Really, skepticism has pretty much tipped over to cynicism.

But it is a fact that some game footage surfaced recently that shows a glimpse of Chamberlain's vertical:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EpVZS26BUs

Now all the pretty colors that guy painted on that clip is pretty much bullshite. And the angle of the camera is very deceptive.

Don't use the top of the backboard as reference in that Youtube clip - look at where he is in relation to the rim. You can clearly see that not only is Chamberlain's head above the rim, his shoulder is too. Basically his armpit is at rim level.

Given the fact that it would be 35" from the top of Chamberlain's 7'1&1/16" head to the 10' rim, that is at least a 42" vertical, and I suspect it is considerably more than that.

Given the fact that he was timing a blocked shot in a game, taking no step, and using his left or off hand for his reach........ he got mighty mighty close to the top in that old college footage.

I have little doubt that in a serious attempt to do his best vertical, he could have gotten higher than that - since his target here is not his highest leap, but the ball.
*****************************


I re-posted this interesting old thread due to the new footage which showed up on Youtube here in the last couple of months.

{Unfortunately I'm kinda glad jlauber ain't around because I see one of my blocked users is on here....... probably spewing more alkali about jlauber's long posts.}

Anyhow it looks like the unending rants about no-footage-it-didn't-happen just don't have legs anymore

[millwad]

Yeah, it's "even" said this, as if a 7'1 guy with freakishly long arms would need a 40 or 50 inch vertical in order to perform this. :rolleyes: Samuel Dalembert, with nowhere near Wilt's speed almost pulled this off during a game and Toni Kukoc with nowhere near Wilt's length (and definitely not 40 inches of vertical) had no problems dunking from the FT line in a Croatian All Star competition (there exists UTube footage of this). But, knowing this, and having seen some more of Wilt's exploits, nope, we still need hard photographic evidence for the extraordinary claim of achieving the apex of basketball athleticism, dunkng from the FT line...



Psileas, you're not like these obsessed fan boys you do know you have my respect and I think you know what I'm talking about.

Apparently Wilt could dunk from the FT-line without a running start, he only needed to take two steps inside the circle and then he would fly to the basket. That is the biggest pile of crap ever said about Wilt and it's an obvious lie..

And stuff like Wilt having a 50 inch vertical like he himself said, seriously? 50 inch vertical? Spud who's pic I posted earlier in this thread had a 42 inch vertical and no way Wilt was any close to to that..

And Le Frescobaldi or whatever your name is, please tell us about Wilt's standing vertical....

[PTB Fan]

Russell may have a bigger vert than Wilt. Both were around 35-40 at max on a good day.

[Psileas]

Psileas, you're not like these obsessed fan boys you do know you have my respect and I think you know what I'm talking about.

Apparently Wilt could dunk from the FT-line without a running start, he only needed to take two steps inside the circle and then he would fly to the basket. That is the biggest pile of crap ever said about Wilt and it's an obvious lie..

And stuff like Wilt having a 50 inch vertical like he himself said, seriously? 50 inch vertical? Spud who's pic I posted earlier in this thread had a 42 inch vertical and no way Wilt was any close to to that..

And Le Frescobaldi or whatever your name is, please tell us about Wilt's standing vertical....

I didn't say without a running start. This was the deal that changed the rules after all. You could take a few steps and then step from the line and shoot. FYI, it takes definitely less than a full court for a great athlete to acquire like 90% of his full speed and take off. I don't know how many steps Wilt would need, but I would be surprised if he couldn't do it.

Wilt didn't have 50 inches of vertical and no big man ever did - I'd love to know otherwise.
Spud Webb, as far as I've heard, was closer to 45-46 inches.

[millwad]

I didn't say without a running start. This was the deal that changed the rules after all. You could take a few steps and then step from the line and shoot. FYI, it takes definitely less than a full court for a great athlete to acquire like 90% of his full speed and take off. I don't know how many steps Wilt would need, but I would be surprised if he couldn't do it.

Wilt didn't have 50 inches of vertical and no big man ever did - I'd love to know otherwise.
Spud Webb, as far as I've heard, was closer to 45-46 inches.

Even Spud's own website says that he had a 42 inch vertical so I know I can trust that and it's safe to say that he had a higher vert then Wilt, no doubt..

Source: http://www.spudwebb.net/

And regarding Wilt's free throw dunks, I am talking about the nonsense that he didn't need a running start to dunk from the FT-line and that he only needed to take 2 small steps before flying to the basket.. I am not talking about a running start.

And honestly, I couldn't trust them quotes any less then what I do now. Too many tall tales from Wilt himself and his peers.. A 50 inch vertical, the guy could dunk from the FT-line without a running start, once he dunked a basketball so hard that a player broke his foot/toe (sure..) etc..

So many myths and quotes and if Wilt could make up stuff like a 50 inch vertical I'm sure some people exaggerated alot when it came to other stuff about Wilt as well..

No one denies the fact the he was a great jumper, and so was Bill Russell but all this nonsense about their verts is just rubbish..

In that case both Russell and Wilt had a higher vertical than Stefan Holm, one of the greatest high jumpers of all time; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVZ3ZcorTF0

[Lebron23]

They don't have an NBA Pre Draft Camp in the 1960's.

[jlauber]

The "anti-Chamberlain" clan has been spewing NONSENSE about Wilt for the last several years on this forum. FORTUNATELY we are getting more-and-more VIDEO FOOTAGE which just DESTROYS their trash.

I firmly believe that no other legitimate NBA player has ever had a higher REACH than Chamberlain. In the past few months the VIDEO footage was released in which a Chamberlain, without benefit of a running start, (and in fact almost a flat-footed straight up leap), blocks a shot in which it is clear that his fingertips are near the top of the backboard. Keep in mind, that Wilt had also been running up-and-down the floor (as he ALWAYS did), and dominating at BOTH ends (as he ALWAYS did.)

Of course, this substantiates what a Philly sports legend Sonny Hill claimed long ago...that he witnessed Chamberlain touching the top of the backboard. BTW, long time Sixer trainer Al Domenico also claimed to have witnessed it, as well. In fact, it was fairly common knowledge among NBA players that Wilt was capable of that exact feat.

The "Wilt-bashers" also constantly scoffed at the idea that Wilt, with a few short steps, could dunk a FT. Impossible they claimed. YET, none other than TEX WINTER, and in a VIDEO conversation, claims to have witnessed it. In fact, because of Wilt's KNOWN ability to accomplish that EXACT feat, the ruling bodies in BOTH the NBA and NCAA banned the dunking of FTs.

It was also WELL-KNOWN that Chamberlain was dunking on a 12 FT. RIM. His COACH even rolled out that rim while Wilt was at Kansas. Now, judging the VIDEO of Wilt, going straight up, without benefit of a running start, and nearly reaching the top of the backboard...is there any DOUBT that Wilt could EASILY have dunked on a 12 ft rim???

VIDEO FOOTAGE? There is footage of a game against the Bulls in the '71 playoffs, in which Wilt, again, going straight up, and with only a split second to react, blocks a shot, in which it CLEARLY shows Wilt's fingertips at the top of the square, and close to the 12 ft. mark. So what you ask? This was a Wilt, playing every minute of every game in that series, and running up-and-down the floor, and dominating at BOTH ends of the court. Furthermore, this was a 34 year old Wilt, playing with arthritis in one knee, and the other knee a year removed from MAJOR knee surgery, and...at over 300 lbs.

THAT Wilt, with a straight-up, split second leap, could reach the 12 ft. mark. And, at all of these combines throughout the years, we have GREAT leapers struggling to get to the 12'-6" mark. And yet a 34 year old Wilt, at over 300 lbs, and on a surgically repaired knee, with a straight-up leap, could nearly accomplish THAT same feat.

Of course, the same "anti-Chamberlain" clan disputed that a 35 year old Wilt was ROUTINELY knocking Kareem's "unblockable" sky hook all over the gym. Guess what, we got VIDEO footage of Chamberlain not only blocking ONE sky-hook, he did it TWICE, and within about FIVE SECONDS of each other. Of course, those that witnessed the Kareem-Wilt battles would attest to the fact that Chamberlain blocking Kareem's skyhook was a common feat.

Then the "Wilt-doubters" ripped those that claimed that Wilt didn't have an outside shot. Yes, we had a HOF COACH claiming that Wilt came into the league with a GOOD OUTSIDE shot, BUT, the "Chamberlain-bashers" demanded more. They wanted VIDEO FOOTAGE. Well, low-and-behold, VIDEO FOOTAGE of MINUTES of SINGLE games surfaced, especially while he was at Kansas...and guess what???...here was Wilt REPEATEDLY hitting 15+ shots, 15+ bank shots, even 15+ ft. JUMP SHOTS, and from a variety of locations.

Then with what little the "anti-Wilt" clan had left...they argued that Wilt never faced the defenses that the "modern" centers faced. Of course, I produced a TON of articles, even by CELTIC writers, and using quotes from CELTIC players, in which they claimed that not only was Wilt doubled, he was often tripled, or even swarmed, AND ABUSED. We also have a VIDEO conversation in which Chamberlain claimed that he was doubled and tripled, and THEN Russell was guardiing him on top of that...and guess what??? Russell was sitting right next to Wilt when he made that claim. And not a peep out Bill, either.

Of course, one poster produced a quarter, of a half, of a game in the '64 Finals, in which Wilt had several shots against single coverage. I responded by posting the second quarter, of that half, of that SAME game, in which Wilt was DOUBLED, or TRIPLED, or even SWARMED on nearly EVERY possession down the floor.

As for some of these other "anti-Wilt" claims. That he couldn't possibly bench 500+ lbs. Well, we have an SI article in 1964, and long before Wilt reached anywhere near his maximum size and strength, in which Wilt was already benching 425 lbs. We also have an EYE-WITNESS account, and on tape, in which the interviewee claims to have witnessed Chamberlain benching 465 lbs...at age 59!

In Robert Cherry's book, he interviewed a well-known weight lifter, who was 6-5 and 250 lbs, and who was known to have benched well over 500 lbs, who had worked out with Wilt, and who claimed that Wilt was the strongest man he ever met.

Of course, you could just ASK any of the players who actually played with and against Wilt in his career, and to a man, they would claim that he was the strongest player they ever faced, and many would say that there has not been anyone since as strong.

There is an interview by Howard Cosell, with both Mohammed Ali and Wilt, in which Cosell claims that Wilt was among the strongest athletes in the WORLD.

Here again, just GOOGLE Wilt's Bench-press, or his strength, or his vertical, or even his speed...the internet is PLASTERED with incredible stories of Chamberlain's awesome physical feats.

I have also long asked this question...Chamberlain played with, and against, DOZENS of coachs in his career. He was covered by DOZENS of members of the media (probably hundreds.) He played with, and against, HUNDREDS (if not thousands) of players (both in college and the pros.) And there were hundreds of thousands who SAW Chamberlain PLAY.

Now, if all of these staggering physical accomplishments were NOT true, why has there not been ONE LEGITIMATE person come forth, and DISPUTE them? If Wilt couldn't bench 500 lbs, don't you think that SOMEONE would have stepped up and DISPUTED it? Same with his freakish leaps. If Wilt couldn't touch the top of the backboard, don't you think that some teammate might have witnessed Chamberlain trying, and failing, and coming forth to DISPUTE it?

Nope...we have DOZENS, HUNDREDS, even THOUSANDS of first-hand accounts of Chamberlain's amazing physical feats, and virtually NONE that DISPUTE them.

Of course, as more and more information comes forth, we are finding out that all of those accounts were right on.

Furthermore, the "Wilt-detractors", who have been spewing LIES about Chamberlain are being exposed as more-and-more information, and VIDEO footage becomes available. This NONSENSE that Wilt was a "stats-padding", "loser" who "choked" in his biggest games has been BLOWN to shreds.

If anything, the more that comes out, the more affirmation we have that Wilt was on a planet of his own, and that there has never been another basketball player, or even an athlete, like him since. Many of those so-called "myths" are now becoming documented FACTS.

[jlauber]

How can OP and his kind always miss this logic is beyond me.

Sure, there's no footage of these feats, or attempts at them.

However there is plenty of other footage of Wilt / Russel playing ball...

NOTHING in that footage could EVEN HINT at them topping today's above average athletes in verticals, or what not.


Then I get reminded of how Wilt supposedly had sex with 10,000 mountain lions,
or how he tossed a woman by her tail...
(or was it the other way around??)



...And I realize that logic has nothing to do with it.


Like this logic...

The world's LONG JUMP record is currently at 29' 4"...which was set 20 years ago. Oh, and the PREVIOUS record? 29' 2", which was set in 1968...or about in the middle of Chamberlain's NBA career.

So, since 1968, we have seen the long jump mark broken, 20 years ago, with a leap that was 2" longer than in 1968.

[La Frescobaldi]

I repped you, La Frescobaldi. Great link, man.

I'm in Kblaze's camp: it seems feasible, and I'm more inclined to believe it's possible given what other top leapers have accomplished related to the feat.

What I hate about all this kind of thread is, there's not any footage (that I know of) showing what Bill Russell could do.

People scoff about Chamberlain - well they can shut up now, because there's proof (although even when they see the footage they deny it... ). But there's no footage like that of Russell.

Who knows though, maybe something like what we found on Chamberlain will show up.

*************************************

I was never a Russell fan. He was a cold, distant, arrogant dude. He wore a black cape and he really seemed kind of sinister. If he looked at us teenagers at all, standing around out on the street before the game... it was a stony eyed hawk's stare that wasn't ever going to bring him any friends.

When the teams ran out on the court... Russell didn't. He walked, slowly, and he had an air of just arrogance - man you could almost get a whiff of egomania in the air. This is me looking back now of course... back then all I knew was just here was some bad kinda @ss.

Well some guys just exude charisma, & other guys are like a energy beam. Know what I mean? When Jordan ran on the court there was an air about him, that undefineable, charismatic aura - His Airness!!

Well, Wilt had a regal air, like a duke you might see in England. Sometimes and especially as a Laker, Chamberlain had a majesty that just made you look and look, almost like, where's his sceptre?

Or Shaq with his fantasmagorphic gigantism but yet you can still see the joyful little kid twinkle in his eye from a mile away

*************************************

Not Russell.
Russell was just Confidence, in its purest, distilled form - like raw spirits that you can't taste without your entire mouth head lungs going right on fire.

Every inch of Russell said - "My team is here to destroy your hopes and dreams, and there is nothing. NOTHING. Anyone in this arena can do about it."

Not a likeable persona you understand.

But lemme tell you, dude was a serious talent on a basketball court.

********************************

I never saw Russell in his great days, the early 60s. Chamberlain tore him apart every time I saw them match up.

But one thing I noticed different about Russell from any other player I ever saw.
Kareem would get furious if he got smoked; he would even start swinging at guys - like a matchstick version of Bob Lanier or Bill LameButtocks.... and if Chamberlain got smoked, he'd demand the ball on the left block for the next play or two so he could smash it down their face. Jordan too, and Bird - you could see the cold fury in their face and they'd go out and destroy the other team.

Not Russell. His game never changed whether Boston was down by 40 or up by 40. He didn't care, at all, that he was being destroyed. He was coming after you just the same. It affected him not one single iota.

And that, more than anything else, to me, is what made Bill Russell great.

[millwad]

Like this logic...

The world's LONG JUMP record is currently at 29' 4"...which was set 20 years ago. Oh, and the PREVIOUS record? 29' 2", which was set in 1968...or about in the middle of Chamberlain's NBA career.

So, since 1968, we have seen the long jump mark broken, 20 years ago, with a leap that was 2" longer than in 1968.

The difference?

We actually have video proof of Bob Beamon's record; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEt_Xgg8dzc

We don't have any visual proof at all of Wilt having anything close to a 50 inch vertical (like Wilt claimed he had) or even 45 inch vertical, that means that he would had to have a better vertical then Spud who had a 42 inch vertical which Wilt really wasn't anywhere close to by the video "proof" we've seen. The only "proof" we have is a video of Wilt blocking a shot from a terrible and misleading angle..

And considering his other tall tales I believe in many of those myths just as little as I believe that he had a 50 inch vert..

If Wilt would have the vertical you guys claim, then he would have a better vertical then Stefan Holm which is just a pathetic statement;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L28NyIquzIQ

And still no answer about Wilt's standing vertical..

[jlauber]

The difference?

We actually have video proof of Bob Beamon's record; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEt_Xgg8dzc

We don't have any visual proof at all of Wilt having anything close to a 50 inch vertical (like Wilt claimed he had) or even 45 inch vertical, that means that he would had to have a better vertical then Spud who had a 42 inch vertical which Wilt really wasn't anywhere close to by the video "proof" we've seen. The only "proof" we have is a video of Wilt blocking a shot from a terrible and misleading angle..

And considering his other tall tales I believe in many of those myths just as little as I believe that he had a 50 inch vert..

If Wilt would have the vertical you guys claim, then he would have a better vertical then Stefan Holm which is just a pathetic statement;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L28NyIquzIQ

And still no answer about Wilt's standing vertical..

I could not care less what Wilt's vertical was. However, I stand by my statement that no other legitimate NBA player ever REACHED the heights that Chamberlain did. We have VIDEO footage with his fingertips within a couple of inches of the top of the backboard...on a leap in which he went straight up, and with little time to react.

We have EYE-WITNESS accounts of Chamberlain touching the top of the backboard. Wilt's coach at KU rolled out a 12 ft. hoop and we have claims that Wilt was dunking on it. We have Tex Winter being stunned when he witnessed a high-school Chamberlain dunking FTs with only a couple of steps (and subsequently, the NCAA and NBA banned that "freakish" activity.)

We have VIDEO footage of a 35 year old Wilt, at over 300 lbs., and on a surgically repaired knee blocking TWO of a phyically PRIME Kareem's "unblockable" skyhooks, and within a matter of seconds.


We KNOW that Wilt won HIGH-JUMP championships (and he did so PART-TIME, and in one case, the nest morning after a brutal basketball game the night before.) We KNOW that Chamberlain was a LONG-JUMPER, and a TRIPLE-JUMPER at Kansas (among his several events.) We also KNOW that he was nearly 7-2 (some would claim he was taller than that), with a MEASURED 7-8 wingspan, and huge hands.

And once again...so MANY claims and eye-witness accounts of Chamberlain's amazing physical feats, and yes, even VIDEO footage of some of them, and yet, not ONE LEGITIMATE source that was around in the Wilt-era has come forth to DISPUTE any of them.

[32Dayz]

Psileas, you're not like these obsessed fan boys you do know you have my respect

You do know that no one wants wants your respect or respects you right?

:roll:

[PTB Fan]

PTB, what are you basing that on? Just a hunch?

Just assuming..

They were truly great leapers. There weren't measurements back in the day for vertical jump... Russell and Wilt demonstrated a great vertical jump when they blocked shots.

It probably doesn't sound reasonable.. but i think that they were great leapers overall.

[La Frescobaldi]

I didn't say without a running start. This was the deal that changed the rules after all. You could take a few steps and then step from the line and shoot. FYI, it takes definitely less than a full court for a great athlete to acquire like 90% of his full speed and take off. I don't know how many steps Wilt would need, but I would be surprised if he couldn't do it.

Wilt didn't have 50 inches of vertical and no big man ever did - I'd love to know otherwise.
Spud Webb, as far as I've heard, was closer to 45-46 inches.

************************************

Tex Winter was the guy who got the rule for free-throws changed. He talks about it in this Youtube clip. Conversation about No. 13 starts about 3:15, and Tex talking about going to Kansas Universtiy and watching Wilt Chamberlain dunking his free throws starts about 3:50 in the interview.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyz-FhP2ONk

************************************

Psileas ~~ you rock the boards and even though I don't agree with all of them I want you to know your posts are appreciated by this old geezer.

[CavaliersFTW]

That's cool and all, but no, he couldn't.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2AlFrOj5Mc

moron.

[pauk]

For a guy to have his eyes ABOVE the rim means having your scalp about 7 inches above the 10 foot rim... and if you are 6'9" while doing so we are looking at around a 46" inch vertical.... didnt know Russell was that kindof an athlete lol

[Djahjaga]

I realize that the burden of proof is a bit hard on those that believe Russell in this case because there's little video of anything that went on in the earlier eras of the NBA, but I have to cautiously side with the other side.

There's just too much room for doubt in a case where the main evidence comes from Russell himself. I can easily see him exaggerating (even if its only slightly) and that puts the entire statement at doubt.

It's not that I think athletes now are universally better than athletes then, or that I doubt Russell's own athletic prowess. In fact, I think the great athletes of today are no better than those of Russell's era (though I might lean towards saying the league is more deep athletically i.e. the 12th man now is more athletic than the 12th man then). And with all the incentive to demonstrate this ability today, and all forms of social media to capture and advertise it, no one has done it.

Extrapolating from Russell's height and vert and standing reach is enough to say it MAY have been possible for him to do it, but it doesn't prove anything. That's asking for too much faith on my part, and I just can't make that leap without more evidence from a non-biased source than can explain where and how they got the information and how it's accurate. Any old article won't cut it. And a statement from Russell or other old-timers isn't sufficient for me either.


inb4 Someone posts CavsFan's gif of Russell jumping over that dude. That's raw, but it doesn't prove his claim here.

[Floppy]

If he was the 7th best high jumper in the world then why is that so hard to believe? Contrary to popular belief the best jumpers in the world are, who would've thought, high jumpers and not NBA or And1 players.

[Djahjaga]

If he was the 7th best high jumper in the world then why is that so hard to believe? Contrary to popular belief the best jumpers in the world are, who would've thought, high jumpers and not NBA or And1 players.

Does anyone know how closely the high jump and vertical leap are related? Clearly the high jump requires a much finer technique and mastery of mechanics to pull off than a simple vertical.

I'm sure there's a general trend (i.e. they both fall and rise together), but how much statistical predictive power does the high jump have on the vertical, and vice versa?

It doesn't strike me as obvious that because Russell could high jump that he could touch the backboard or get his eyes above the rim.

[CavaliersFTW]

Does anyone know how closely the high jump and vertical leap are related? Clearly the high jump requires a much finer technique and mastery of mechanics to pull off than a simple vertical.

I'm sure there's a general trend (i.e. they both fall and rise together), but how much statistical predictive power does the high jump have on the vertical, and vice versa?

It doesn't strike me as obvious that because Russell could high jump that he could touch the backboard or get his eyes above the rim.
Bill Russell had awful technique though, he got by on raw athleticism and tied the Gold Medalist of the 1956 Olympics in a summer meet in the months coming up to the Olympics. Bill Russell was literally world class with his athleticism - we're not talking about above average - we're talking a top 10 World Class leaper on the planet in his day. His 6-9 and 1/4" PR (again on crude raw athleticism with terrible jumping form) would have been good enough to tie for a Bronze Medal in the Olympic field that year. He was expected to clear 7 feet if he'd worked at it as his discipline - IE match the world record. In the pre-fosbury flop days those numbers are huge.

[Djahjaga]

Bill Russell had awful technique though, he got by on raw athleticism and tied the Gold Medalist of the 1956 Olympics in a summer meet in the months coming up to the Olympics. Bill Russell was literally world class with his athleticism - we're not talking about above average - we're talking a top 10 World Class leaper on the planet in his day. His 6-9 and 1/4" PR (again on crude raw athleticism with terrible jumping form) would have been good enough to tie for a Bronze Medal in the Olympic field that year. He was expected to clear 7 feet if he'd worked at it as his discipline - IE match the world record. In the pre-fosbury flop days those numbers are huge.

Bad technique or not, it seems to me it requires a different kind of skill than just pure, upward vertical. You need to be agile and able to contort your body, even if your technique blows. These are things I couldn't imagine doing even at the tamest of heights, and Russell was clearly naturally talented at these at least to a degree.

I do understand your point about the Fosbury Flop, so I won't make you repeat that for the trillionth time haha I feel like people are just skipping over that...

[bmd]

This is simply another case of people exaggerating the talents of legends from the past. They want their heroes to seem like mythical figures, so they believe a bunch of ridiculous claims about them.

It's no different than people saying little 135 pound Bruce Lee would destroy Muhammad Ali and saying he is so fast that he could snatch a quarter from somebody's open palm and leave a penny behind. It's all fantasy to make their heroes seem like super heroes.

It's all non-sense.

[fpliii]

For a guy to have his eyes ABOVE the rim means having your scalp about 7 inches above the 10 foot rim... and if you are 6'9" while doing so we are looking at around a 46" inch vertical.... didnt know Russell was that kindof an athlete lol

I was about to note that Russell was a bit taller when he played in the NBA (6'10" stockings height is a number I've seen cited a lot, so he'd be closer to 6'11" effective playing height), though in 'Second Wind' he notes that he first looked down on the rim earlier on in his playing days (I forget if it was during high school, his time with that traveling all-star team after graduating, or early in college). I'm not sure if he'd need his scalp to be 7 inches above the rim, since he didn't necessarily have to be looking down at the basket, just slightly above eye level with the rim, which means he probably only needed his scalp to clear by around 3-4 inches (or maybe I'm wrong...again it depends how big his head is, maybe someone can find a good photo to ascertain this). I think it's safe to say he was without question over 40", but 46" (while it wouldn't shock me) is probably a tiny bit high IMO.

Of course, I'm sure CavsFTW will have some great highlights in his new video which will help us get a better idea of where he stood. Either way, it's nice to have discussions of Russ on this board.

:cheers:

[Living Being]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-f_gVh9h9Q

1:08 mark

"My vertical was I could get my eyes above the rim. When I jumped up straight I could get my eyes above the rim & I could touch the top of the backboard."
I can get my eyes above the rim too, without jumping. What I do is, just look at the top of the backboard, and my eyes are over the level of the rim.

[feyki]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/8f/9b/0d/8f9b0d650874dce91ae99c1dd1fbadbb.jpg

That's around between 37-40 inches . I think he's max vertical 41 .

[theaussieguy]

to realize that westbrook is far shorter and has a poverty 36.5 inch vertical yet everyone claims athletes are far better today. LMAO

[feyki]

to realize that westbrook is far shorter and has a poverty 36.5 inch vertical yet everyone claims athletes are far better today. LMAO

True.

But Wilt and Bill are rare cause their athleticism coming from their athletic backgrounds . An example ; Elgin Baylor is a good athlete from 60's but as good as Westbrook,Kobe,Shaq etc. .

[jongib369]

How much do they weigh Plowking? How can you not factor this in, YOU LIFT!? :lol


:cheers:



I dont think you have one bit of evidence saying he cant...other than you not thinking he could. Is it an impossibly high jump? No. Travis Outlaw is shorter than Russell and ive seen him riiiiiiight there just short of the top of the backboard in the one attempt ive seen him make to get there.

And I think we often forget something on these things. We are talking about 1955 or so. All NBA rims/boackboards were not the same until well into the 60s. They were pretty close but there are stories of coaches having them tested all the time because they looked off. They didnt have the same accuracy they do now. And thats in the NBA. You think every middle school, high school, college, and playground backboard met current NBA regulation height? I dont.

If at some point in their lives they ran into a goal that would have them only need to go up...46 inches or so? I have no problems accepting that legit world class high jumpers could do it. I dont think so many people are just fabricating it.

Besides its a 48 inch jump for most bigmen and its not like there arent guys known to get that high. NBA.com listen Mcdyess one step vertical at 47 inches for years due to a test a lot of people are supposed to have watched. And even with every moment of his career on high quality tape ive never seen him get nearly that high. I doubt ive seen him get 40 inches in a game.

Doesnt mean he never did. Legit proven world class high jumpers getting into the upper 40s is not one bit shocking to me even if its 1955. The foot difference in the high jump isnt due to evolution asm uch as how they teach them to jump. Ive seen Russell jump forward and clear like 6'8''. You will never see anyone jumping like that these days because you just dont jump as high. Guys Bill jumped with and against beating at times reached 7 feet and up as time went.

Touching the top of the backboard is no doubt often a myth but there are some easier to believe than others. A 215-220(entering the NBA he was skinny) 6'10.5'' in shoes world class high jumper with long arms?

Ive only seen like 3 people attempt it on film. And 2 of them(Outlaw and James white) were almost there and both were shorter than Bill. Am I to believe that they got the highest in world history in the 4 total attempts I saw them make?

Of course not. And if I assume someone got higher...why wouldnt I assume someone bigger than them who was the #2 ranked high jumper in America wasnt one of them 1-2 times? Or that he never ran into a backboard 2 inches off in a gym in Alabama working out?

I dont think ill just assume hes lying because I didnt see it. World class 6-10 and 7-1 high jumpers should be on the short list of people given the benefit of the doubt if there are a gang of people saying they could reach heights that are well within the human potential to reach.


I don't agree with every post this guy makes but I swear he's one of the most sensible/unbiased posters on this board


https://jugones.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/1k.jpg


Lets say Russell is 6'10, 225, with a 9'3 standing reach, the same as dwight
He'd need a 9 Inch vertical leap to touch the rim and 15 Inch leap to dunk considering that you have to jump about 6 inches over the rim to dunk. To accomplish that you have to leave the ground at a speed of 2.73 m/s vertically no matter how much you weigh. You need a force of 2383 Newtons (535.72 pounds of force)against the ground based on your weight to reach that speed assuming you bent your knees at an angle of 60 degrees. The force depends on how much you bent your knees.

Shaq at 7'0, 300, with a 9'5 standing reach
He'd need a 7 Inch vertical leap to touch the rim and 13 Inch leap to dunk considering that you have to jump about 6 inches over the rim to dunk. To accomplish that you have to leave the ground at a speed of 2.54 m/s vertically no matter how much you weigh. You need a force of 2670 Newtons(600.24 pounds of force) against the ground based on your weight to reach that speed assuming you bent your knees at an angle of 60 degrees. The force depends on how much you bent your knees.


Would I say Russell geting a bit higher is more impressive? No, the fact Shaq could get that high at that weight is spooky as ***. But to just outright dismiss that someone a lot lighter, with a standing reach just a tad shorter couldn't possibly jump higher is....Silly