Dwight Howard and his greatness

[Dwade305]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYmpPqJLX_Y
:roll:









Never seen yao take an ass whooping like that ever

[EarlTheGoat]

I got into RocketsGreatness head, im the man.


:lol

[The_Yearning]

Back when Wade actually attacked the basket.

[Dwade305]

I got into RocketsGreatness head, im the man.


:lol


nah idk who that is

but look at this real quick

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R-9yLow_6s&feature=related

[ReturnofJPR]

Mourning was just a slightly above average player in the Jordan Days.

That video just goes to show how superior the NBA was in the 80's and 90's compared to now.

[EarlTheGoat]

nah idk who that is

but look at this real quick

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R-9yLow_6s&feature=related

:roll: :roll:


You mad.

[DuMa]

Alonzo schooling Dwight back in the day..... Alonzo was fierce. was so happy he got his ring in 06.

[Dwade305]

Mourning was just a slightly above average player in the Jordan Days.

That video just goes to show how superior the NBA was in the 80's and 90's compared to now.


Not really. Just the Center position. Rony Seikaly would have ran circles around Dwight pushing him out of the top 10 Center list that were currently playing in the 90's

[Court Vision]

Mourning was just a slightly above average player in the Jordan Days.

:wtf:

Slightly above average?

All Star in '94, '95, '96, and '97.

Guy was a 22/10, 52%, 3 block guy in the early '90's.

Unless you're definition of a good player is VERY strict, I don't know how you could call 'Zo just a slightly above average player.

[Court Vision]

Not really. Just the Center position. Rony Seikaly would have ran circles around Dwight pushing him out of the top 10 Center list that were currently playing in the 90's

Oh come on.

The romanticizing of the previous era is getting way out of hand now.

[ReturnofJPR]

:wtf:

Slightly above average?

All Star in '94, '95, '96, and '97.

Guy was a 22/10, 52%, 3 block guy in the early '90's.

Unless you're definition of a good player is VERY strict, I don't know how you could call 'Zo just a slightly above average player.

He's slightly above average when compared to Karl Malone, John Stockton, Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, ect.

[JDKMagic]

The idea of a full adult male in Alonzo Mourning (despite past his prime, doesn't matter) having one good game against a TWENTY YEAR OLD Dwight Howard "proving" anything... :facepalm 20 years old... let it sink in. He was a little kid. Give me a break. He's still a kid. He's what? 24?

[Dwade305]

The idea of a full adult male in Alonzo Mourning (despite past his prime, doesn't matter) having one good game against a TWENTY YEAR OLD Dwight Howard "proving" anything... :facepalm 20 years old... let it sink in. He was a little kid. Give me a break. He's still a kid. He's what? 24?


:lol

This is the same sloppy ass Dwight, whose biggesst progress is the mass on his shoulders but not too much basketball related

[JDKMagic]

:facepalm

[Th3ShowMVP]

Dwight Howard's greatness is the Nick Anderson moment he had in the Finals.

[moe94]

Zo was an above average player in his prime? I've heard it all.

[Magic Vinsanity]

All these clowns who shit on Howard are the same mouth breathing, short bus riding spastics who would be giving him a virtual ******* if he joined their team.

F-A-C-T

Dont be jealous because you're center is Brad Miller, Big Z, old Diesel or cripple Yao :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Quizno]

He's slightly above average when compared to Karl Malone, John Stockton, Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, ect.
no, he's below average when he's compared to those players, but when he's compared to the average NBA player in the 90s, he was waaaaaaaay above average

[moe94]

Give me Zo over Pippen every single time. Make no mistake, Pippen had the greater career, but Zo was a better player on the better position.

[Alonzo Magic]

Child Please, Zo would have blocked Jesus' shot. This means nothing.

[necya]

Give me Zo over Pippen every single time. Make no mistake, Pippen had the greater career, but Zo was a better player on the better position.


:wtf:
stop comparing chips with cacahuetes.

Dwight Howard is considered as the est center cause there is no center anymore...
he is obviously bad with a basketball in his hands.
and he would have no chance in the 90's, behind olajuwon, robinson, shaq, ewing, mutombo, morning.

[moe94]

I'm sorry but when someone says Pippen makes Zo look average then I'm going to have to say something.

[SinJackal]

Mourning was just a slightly above average player in the Jordan Days.

That video just goes to show how superior the NBA was in the 80's and 90's compared to now.

Mourning was extremely underrated because of Robinson, Hakeem, Ewing, Shaq, and Mutumbo (also underrated). If Mourning (prime) played now, he'd be smashing people and be hailed as a top 10-15 player every year. Howard is better than Mourning, despite the vid though. He just obviously had far better post moves than Howard. Still Howard's big weakness, that and FTs.

[ShaqAttack3234]

:wtf:
stop comparing chips with cacahuetes.

Dwight Howard is considered as the est center cause there is no center anymore...
he is obviously bad with a basketball in his hands.
and he would have no chance in the 90's, behind olajuwon, robinson, shaq, ewing, mutombo, morning.

Howard is comparable to a prime Alonzo Mourning(who I was a fan of) and a much better player than Mutombo. Mutombo wasn't a franchise player like Howard is now regardless of eras.

[triangleoffense]

Howard is comparable to a prime Alonzo Mourning(who I was a fan of) and a much better player than Mutombo. Mutombo wasn't a franchise player like Howard is now regardless of eras.

eh pretty much, but alonzo mourning came into the league with a 20/10 season. Also it has yet to be seen whether Dwight's post moves will continue to grow or if he's near his offensive peak. Defensively he can only go up, which is scary considering the level that he's at already at defensively. His inability, at times, to catch the ball, especially in the post, is disconcerting...

[necya]

the nba just sucks today, howard is the best center whereas he does not know playing basketball. Prime mourning is easily better than Howard. he has no moves, no shot, doesn't know to shot a FT. mourning had a mid range shot, hook shot, was good at FT line, post up moves and play his guy in penetration.
how can you compare what is uncomparable?

maybe i should send you some hornets games from 93-95.

[ShaqAttack3234]

eh pretty much, but alonzo mourning came into the league with a 20/10 season. Also it has yet to be seen whether Dwight's post moves will continue to grow or if he's near his offensive peak. Defensively he can only go up, which is scary considering the level that he's at already at defensively. His inability, at times, to catch the ball, especially in the post, is disconcerting...

Actually, Dwight was noticeably better offensively in 2009 than he was in 2010. He was using his quickness a little more and not trying to back down guys(which he's not really good at except against undersized players) he was a little more patient and he seemed more confident. Granted, Orlando was better at getting him the ball, but he averaged almost 1 more offensive rebound per game which also created more scoring opportunities for him.

I talked about this in another thread, but I think Mourning and Dwight have a lot of similarities. Both are about 6'10", 260-270, have long wingspans, like to face up and drive to the basket and get to the foul line or use the running hook. The difference was that Mourning did have a turnaround jumper and a mid-range jumper and he could hit free throws, but despite being a good athlete, he freakishly athletic like Dwight.

Both end up being comparable as far as effectiveness offensively. Actually both are/were turnover prone and because they tried to block almost everything close, they were/are both foul prone.

As much as people try to compare his game to Shaq, the similarities aren't in their game. Shaq is atleast 3-4 inches taller, had much more talent as far as footwork, passing and touch around the basket and even in his Orlando days was 40 pounds heavier, now prime Shaq circa 2000 was a good 70 pounds heavier. And Shaq never really consistently committed himself to defense like Dwight did, he was a shot blocking/rebounding force, but outside of 2000, we rarely saw his defensive potential despite the fact that he still had a big impact on that end. The similarities are that they both played center for the Magic, have a lot of highlight reel dunks, are freak athletes and poor free throw shooters and like to joke.

But if you look at Shaq's career he improved each year in the league for his first 3 years or so and then got lazier and his production fell off. I do think that 1998 Shaq was better than Orlando Shaq, but because of a lack of focus, Shaq didn't really take that next step after 1995 for 4 years, when Phil Jackson took over as coach.

This reminds me of Dwight because he fell off this year despite improving every other year. Like Shaq, he filmed a movie and a lot of commercials, but hopefully it won't take 3-4 more years for Dwight to take his game to the next level.

I really credit Phil Jackson for making Shaq commit to defense in that 2000 season, improve his passing, play 40 mpg and become a leader(atleast during the 3peat). Phil said prior to the 1999-2000 season that he told Shaq he had to play the entire game(not literally of course) because they had no real backup center and Shaq said Phil told him he was going to make everyone else better and if he didn't buy into the system he wouldn't play and Shaq said that was the first time a coach said anything like that to him.

Of course Shaq also claimed that David Robinson winning in 1999 motivated him, though he denied Duncan winning motivated him I don't believe it, remember that in 1999 people were calling Duncan the best in the league and talking about him as the future of the league(and he was to some degree).

The question is, if Dwight needs to look for motivation like Shaq, where will he find it?

Dwight definitely hasn't reached his potential though. He had his best season in 2009 while playing just 35.7 mpg and as durable as he is, he should be playing 40 mpg. And he could, if he's more patient and avoids the dumb fouls and just by doing that, running the court constantly for better post position, crashing the offensive glass like he did in 2009 and being more patient(which goes along with avoiding dumb fouls), he could be a 23/15/4/60 FG% player. All of that could come with experience.

Dwight did work with Olajuwon at some point this year, who knows? Maybe that will help him take his game to the next level.

In general though, I think Mourning is a good comparison. Both are elite because of their defense, but both are number 1 options offensively because of their ability to average 20 on good efficiency and draw fouls even if neither are/were Shaq or Hakeem offensively.


the nba just sucks today, howard is the best center whereas he does not know playing basketball. Prime mourning is easily better than Howard. he has no moves, no shot, doesn't know to shot a FT. mourning had a mid range shot, hook shot, was good at FT line, post up moves and play his guy in penetration.
how can you compare what is uncomparable?

maybe i should send you some hornets games from 93-95.

I watched a lot of Zo from 1996-2000 with Miami and some of his time with the Hornets as well and he's not on another level than Howard.

[alexandreben]

to sum up, Howard is a "non-shooting" type of Zo

[ShaqAttack3234]

to sum up, Howard is a "non-shooting" type of Zo

Sort of, except a better rebounder and more athletic, but Zo seemed much more competitive even though that's tough to measure.

[alexandreben]

Sort of, except a better rebounder and more athletic, but Zo seemed much more competitive even though that's tough to measure.
sort of??!! Zo's shooting is so much better than Howard! the defensive skills, not to mention a heart of a champ, i really don't like Howard's sily smilling, what's he smiling for all the time?? it looks like he lacks of heart:facepalm

[ShaqAttack3234]

sort of??!! Zo's shooting is so much better than Howard! the defensive skills, not to mention a heart of a champ, i really don't like Howard's sily smilling, what's he smiling for all the time?? it looks like he lacks of heart:facepalm

I meant sort of, meaning there are still differences. And once again, Dwight and Mourning are on similar levels overall.

[macmac]

Mourning was just a slightly above average player in the Jordan Days.

That video just goes to show how superior the NBA was in the 80's and 90's compared to now.


LOL JPR has consistently been one of the biggest morons on ISH for the past decade. And that's saying a lot on a website that is a breeding ground for morons and their offsprings.

So, what you're saying is he's only average when comparing him to other hall of fame players? The league has over 350 ballers...you naming 6-8 better players in a whole decade doesn't make him slightly above average you dunce

[alexandreben]

I meant sort of, meaning there are still differences. And once again, Dwight and Mourning are on similar levels overall.
huge difference on mentality...
you ever notice that Zo never smile on court? and he inspires the whole team back in the 06' champ team, i didn't see a thing from Howard, not even a tiny bit......

to sum up Howard's mentality: Howard has no heart and probably no balls as well.

talking about athletism, Mr.Chocolate is even better than him, but anyway, Bird doesnt have any athletism, what seperates a great player and a normal one, is the B&B=Brain and Balls

[jimmyzegg]

Zo the Warrior > Dwight the Clown

[Quickz]

Howard is soo young why is there a comparison with him an Zo?? Howard probaly still has 7 years to grow and hurt every other center in the league. Compare then..

[ShaqAttack3234]

huge difference on mentality...
you ever notice that Zo never smile on court? and he inspires the whole team back in the 06' champ team, i didn't see a thing from Howard, not even a tiny bit......

to sum up Howard's mentality: Howard has no heart and probably no balls as well.

talking about athletism, Mr.Chocolate is even better than him, but anyway, Bird doesnt have any athletism, what seperates a great player and a normal one, is the B&B=Brain and Balls

Zo was turnover prone and foul prone like Dwight, actually, more so in some seasons so I don't see the brain comment. And for all of Zo's intensity, he wasn't a better playoff performer than Dwight.

I could give prime Zo a slight edge because I think he was an even better defender and more polished offensively(though only a bit more effective), but the 2 are comparable in terms of impact.

[alexandreben]

Howard is soo young why is there a comparison with him an Zo?? Howard probaly still has 7 years to grow and hurt every other center in the league. Compare then..
yes that's a good point, however, "you fight with a great fighter makes you a great fighter", at least a better fighter, sadly, i just don't see any great fighter(center) in the league right now, even one single "enemy" Yao Ming can't stay healthy... wut's more, a man's greatness can be measured by his enemies, no bright future for Howard if you want to compare him to some epic great centers in the history......Howard is done.

[alexandreben]

Zo was turnover prone and foul prone like Dwight, actually, more so in some seasons so I don't see the brain comment. And for all of Zo's intensity, he wasn't a better playoff performer than Dwight.

I could give prime Zo a slight edge because I think he was an even better defender and more polished offensively(though only a bit more effective), but the 2 are comparable in terms of impact.
true these two are comparable, but Zo...something from his heart, inside, that really helps him to exceed his own expectation, which i don't see anything from Howard, i think this is the part that most of the fans focus on "they're not even close", isn't it?

[Quickz]

yes that's a good point, however, "you fight with a great fighter makes you a great fighter", at least a better fighter, sadly, i just don't see any great fighter(center) in the league right now, even one single "enemy" Yao Ming can't stay healthy... wut's more, a man's greatness can be measured by his enemies, no bright future for Howard if you want to compare him to some epic great centers in the history......Howard is done.

Ya I see your point, today's centers suck...this era has not produced many good centers....I wouldn't compare him to the all-time greats but I think he could be ahead of some others when its all set and done.

[BFRESH44]

I remember when Zo gave 50 to the Bullets....:bowdown:

Dwight couldn't get 50 if his life depended on it.

Prime Zo >>>> Dwight.

[greymatter]

eh pretty much, but alonzo mourning came into the league with a 20/10 season. Also it has yet to be seen whether Dwight's post moves will continue to grow or if he's near his offensive peak. Defensively he can only go up, which is scary considering the level that he's at already at defensively. His inability, at times, to catch the ball, especially in the post, is disconcerting...

You obviously haven't been watching the same games everyone else has. Howard has a score-first PG and a bunch of other guys on the team who suck at getting him the ball when he's got his guy pinned down near the basket. He can easily outrun every other center in the league, but doesn't have anyone who can/will consistently get him the ball in transition were he to sprint down the floor.

[Dwade305]

Dwight has reached his offensive prime already. Put it like this Wade will never have a consistent 3 point shot the same way Dwight will never have a consistent post up game, just not gonna happen, once your already 5-plus years in the L. Being he is a Center in such a weak era aswell, gives him complacency on his game that is based completely on athleticism.

[zORi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYmpPqJLX_Y
:roll:









Never seen yao take an ass whooping like that ever
This was over 4 years ago jack@ss.

[zORi]

nah idk who that is

but look at this real quick

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R-9yLow_6s&feature=related

LOL, RG, really?

Why don't you go home and worry about Yao's foot?

[Dwade305]

This was over 4 years ago jack@ss.


Yea i Know Zo tore his ACL and retired, if not Dwight would keep getting embarrassed by an old man year after year. Its not like his game changed drastically

[JDKMagic]

I remember when Zo gave 50 to the Bullets....:bowdown:

Dwight couldn't get 50 if his life depended on it.

Prime Zo >>>> Dwight.

His career high is 45 and he couldn't get 50 if his life depended on it?

:facepalm

[ShaqAttack3234]

true these two are comparable, but Zo...something from his heart, inside, that really helps him to exceed his own expectation, which i don't see anything from Howard, i think this is the part that most of the fans focus on "they're not even close", isn't it?

This is a fair post and I agree that fans factor in demeanor, but I'll also add nostalgia when people say it's not even close. I'm glad you said they're comparable, though. I said, I'd probably give the edge to Mourning now, but those saying they aren't close really aren't looking at the most important thing, effectiveness on the court.


yes that's a good point, however, "you fight with a great fighter makes you a great fighter", at least a better fighter, sadly, i just don't see any great fighter(center) in the league right now, even one single "enemy" Yao Ming can't stay healthy... wut's more, a man's greatness can be measured by his enemies, no bright future for Howard if you want to compare him to some epic great centers in the history......Howard is done.

Lets be honest, though. It's not like Zo was out there holding his own vs a lot of the great centers. Shaq, Robinson and Ewing dominated Mourning. Oddly, Mourning did a very good job defending Hakeem, but I think that was a better match up for him because they're closer in size. Dwight also struggles vs bigger players.


I remember when Zo gave 50 to the Bullets....:bowdown:

Dwight couldn't get 50 if his life depended on it.

Prime Zo >>>> Dwight.

Dwight had a 45 point game so how can you say he couldn't get 50 if his life depended on it? Man, I swear most people who criticize Howard haven't even followed his career. People act like he's Ben Wallace offensively.

[zORi]

sort of??!! Zo's shooting is so much better than Howard! the defensive skills, not to mention a heart of a champ, i really don't like Howard's sily smilling, what's he smiling for all the time?? it looks like he lacks of heart:facepalm

I'm sick of people complaining about his smiling.

He's never smiling when it's close or when they are down or when they lose. How the hell does that look like he lacks heart? I could see if he were pouting...

GTFOH, now you're just reaching. If you don't like him, just say it. You don't have to come up with ridiculous excuses. No one questioned why Magic was smiling all the time.

[zORi]

His career high is 45 and he couldn't get 50 if his life depended on it?

:facepalm

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

The guy's not even in his prime yet, and people are saying this.

[alexandreben]

I'm sick of people complaining about his smiling.

He's never smiling when it's close or when they are down or when they lose. How the hell does that look like he lacks heart? I could see if he were pouting...

GTFOH, now you're just reaching. If you don't like him, just say it. You don't have to come up with ridiculous excuses. No one questioned why Magic was smiling all the time.
remember Howard and Carter smiled in the second half all the time in elimination game in 09'-10' season? that's the elimination game! what the hell they're smiling for?? go to youtube i'm sure it should be there, think about leaders like Jordan, Bird, etc, they don't give that kind of sily smiling all the time, they're fighters, won't give up till the last minute, 95' Jordan made a horrible mistake and Bulls was eliminated by Orlando, i didn't see him smile... i didn't see Bird smile, i didn't see Ewing smile, i didn't see Zo smile, of course unless if you want to argue Isiah's smiling... yes he smiles and then rips opponent's heart on court...

[Shaolinswords]

How about this 1 star & its greatness :oldlol:

[alexandreben]

This is a fair post and I agree that fans factor in demeanor, but I'll also add nostalgia when people say it's not even close. I'm glad you said they're comparable, though. I said, I'd probably give the edge to Mourning now, but those saying they aren't close really aren't looking at the most important thing, effectiveness on the court.



Lets be honest, though. It's not like Zo was out there holding his own vs a lot of the great centers. Shaq, Robinson and Ewing dominated Mourning. Oddly, Mourning did a very good job defending Hakeem, but I think that was a better match up for him because they're closer in size. Dwight also struggles vs bigger players.



Dwight had a 45 point game so how can you say he couldn't get 50 if his life depended on it? Man, I swear most people who criticize Howard haven't even followed his career. People act like he's Ben Wallace offensively.
Zo has better shooting and defense, Howard has better rebounding and athletism. The real difference of these two players lies in the inside.

My point is, you player with great opponents, they drive you to player harder and eventually you will player better, if Howard played in the 90', he will play better than he does right now, because with so many great centers as competitors, he will drive himself to practice harder and learn a lot of things from "old guys", i remember Moses Malone is the teacher of Hakeem and Sir Charles, Howard certainly will learn a lot by matchuping with Hakeem, Ewing, Shaq...

[zORi]

remember Howard and Carter smiled in the second half all the time in elimination game in 09'-10' season? that's the elimination game! what the hell they're smiling for?? go to youtube i'm sure it should be there, think about leaders like Jordan, Bird, etc, they don't give that kind of sily smiling all the time, they're fighters, won't give up till the last minute, 95' Jordan made a horrible mistake and Bulls was eliminated by Orlando, i didn't see him smile... i didn't see Bird smile, i didn't see Ewing smile, i didn't see Zo smile, of course unless if you want to argue Isiah's smiling... yes he smiles and then rips opponent's heart on court...

That's bullsh*t.

Yeah, Vince was smiling and laughing with Nate Robinson and congratulating him when it was over. But we have all established that Vince's whole heart isn't in the game anymore, this is no secret.

Dwight was near tears when he was taken out of the game. He gave a sarcastic smile when the fans were chanting "HOW-ARD SUCKS!", but other than that, you are just making things up.

[SCdac]

I'd personally take prime Mourning (at 24-25) over current Howard (24-25 in Dec), but that's just right now, I can't say it'll be that way forever. I don't even think somebody preferring Zo should ruffle any feathers among Howard/Magic fans, he was a great player who played with intensity and was a multiple all-star. None the less, my preference has nothing to do with predicted parallels, or comparisons, or similarities, etc. Howard and Zo are different people, different players, and always will be. Let Dwight be Dwight. The story's about Shaq's and Zo's development are interesting, but I don't necessarily see the correlation (and yes I grew up watching all of them) other than them all being all-star centers, physical, and shotblockers. Howard never went to college like those two, or played in a more physical league, and didn't have a natural (at an "elite" level I mean) touch on offense coming into the league (hell, they eventually changed the rules because of Shaq). I like what Zo did with the Hornets (even if they didn't go that far), and for the Heat in improving them 10 wins in 1996 with an average cast, unfortunately he ran into Jordan's Bulls in the first round.

[Th3ShowMVP]

I'd personally take prime Mourning (at 24-25) over current Howard (24-25 in Dec), but that's just right now, I can't say it'll be that way forever. I don't even think somebody preferring Zo should ruffle any feathers among Howard/Magic fans, he was a great player who played with intensity and was a multiple all-star. None the less, my preference has nothing to do with predicted parallels, or comparisons, or similarities, etc. Howard and Zo are different people, different players, and always will be. Let Dwight be Dwight. The story's about Shaq's and Zo's development are interesting, but I don't necessarily see the correlation (and yes I grew up watching all of them) other than them all being all-star centers, physical, and shotblockers. Howard never went to college like those two, or played in a more physical league, and didn't have a natural (at an "elite" level I mean) touch on offense coming into the league (hell, they eventually changed the rules because of Shaq). I like what Zo did with the Hornets (even if they didn't go that far), and for the Heat in improving them 10 wins in 1996 with an average cast, unfortunately he ran into Jordan's Bulls in the first round.
It's not close, zo>dwight.

[necya]

how can xompare a guy who doesn't know playing basketball (he obviously has an extraordinary body, that's all, no skills, no shot, no talent) and Alonzo Mourning.

this site is full of morons, that's crazy.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I'd personally take prime Mourning (at 24-25) over current Howard (24-25 in Dec), but that's just right now, I can't say it'll be that way forever. I don't even think somebody preferring Zo should ruffle any feathers among Howard/Magic fans, he was a great player who played with intensity and was a multiple all-star. None the less, my preference has nothing to do with predicted parallels, or comparisons, or similarities, etc. Howard and Zo are different people, different players, and always will be. Let Dwight be Dwight. The story's about Shaq's and Zo's development are interesting, but I don't necessarily see the correlation (and yes I grew up watching all of them) other than them all being all-star centers, physical, and shotblockers. Howard never went to college like those two, or played in a more physical league, and didn't have a natural (at an "elite" level I mean) touch on offense coming into the league (hell, they eventually changed the rules because of Shaq). I like what Zo did with the Hornets (even if they didn't go that far), and for the Heat in improving them 10 wins in 1996 with an average cast, unfortunately he ran into Jordan's Bulls in the first round.

Good post, as I said, I'd Zo a slight edge as well and as I mentioned, the comparisons between Dwight and Shaq aren't so much in their games, but personalities, I think Shaq was more ruthless on the court, but both seem to lack focus at times.

Offensively, I don't think we'll see a big man on Shaq's level for a long, long time, if we ever do again and the only one who IMO was as good or better offensively was Kareem who again, we'll probably never see another player like.

Neither Dwight or Zo have/had that type of offensive dominance, nor are/were they particularly close.


It's not close, zo>dwight.

You never saw prime Alonzo Mourning play, you started watching the NBA in 2003, you're just an irrational Dwight Howard hater. Again, i give Zo a slight edge, butto say it's not close is ridiculous.


how can xompare a guy who doesn't know playing basketball (he obviously has an extraordinary body, that's all, no skills, no shot, no talent) and Alonzo Mourning.

:oldlol: you can't have no talent and average 21/14/3, finish top 3 in MVP 3 consecutive years before age 25, lead a team to the finals, lead the league in shot blocking, FG% and win defensive player of the year awards without talent.

And no skills? Dwight is obviously a very skilled rebounder and a skilled shot blocker. He can block shots with either hand and he obviously has good timing even if he's not that disciplined. If rebounding was all athleticism, then Amare Stoudemire would be grabbing 13-14 boards per game as well. Hell, Amare also is nowhere near the shot blocker Dwight is, same with Tyson Chandler and Shawn Kemp, who was as athletic as Dwight was not as good of a rebounder despite being good in that category and nowhere near the defensive player.

And if Dwight has no offensive skill, then why did Tyson Chandler turn out so much worse than him? Chandler wasn't quite as athletic, but he's a few inches taller and very athletic himself. And why is that Javale McGee is so far behind Dwight at the same stage in their careers?



this site is full of morons, that's crazy.

Oh, the irony. :roll:

[zORi]

how can xompare a guy who doesn't know playing basketball (he obviously has an extraordinary body, that's all, no skills, no shot, no talent) and Alonzo Mourning.

this site is full of morons, that's crazy.

RocketGreatness? Again?

Or just an idiot? If you think the 2xDPOY, ALL-NBA 1st Team, Top 3 MVP player has no skills, shot, or talent, then you are ignorant.

I won't even call you stupid, because to be stupid, you need to at least have a clue and be wrong. You're just ignorant.

[necya]

RocketGreatness? Again?

Or just an idiot? If you think the 2xDPOY, ALL-NBA 1st Team, Top 3 MVP player has no skills, shot, or talent, then you are ignorant.

I won't even call you stupid, because to be stupid, you need to at least have a clue and be wrong. You're just ignorant.



he doesn't know shooting the ball, laughable from the FT line, ridiculous in attacking the basket, without moves. with his athletic body he can run the floor as a trailer, that's all. what a great center ! he is named in all nba first team cause there is no one to name as the nba suck so much today. howard is not the best, he is the less bad. but only guys who have seen the 80's plers can understand. he led his team to the finals haha, the magic have a very good overall team...

the orlando magic have made the finals twice in 95 and 09.
look at the 2 teams : the players of the starting 5 in 95 own each players of the one of 09.

[zORi]

all nba first team, yeah there is no good centers in this league. your era sucks.
your center is not the best, he is the less bad.

How about leading the league in blocked shots in a perimeter player's league?

What about DPOY (I see you left that out) which is open to everyone? Cmon man, that excuse is tired. At least try to be original.

[LA KB24]

Back when Wade actually attacked the basket. He still does... :confusedshrug:

[ShaqAttack3234]

he doesn't know shooting the ball, laughable from the FT line, ridiculous in attacking the basket, without moves. with his athletic body he can run the floor as a trailer, that's all. what a great center ! he is named in all nba first team cause there is no one to name as the nba suck so much today. howard is not the best, he is the less bad. but only guys who have seen the 80's plers can understand. he led his team to the finals haha, the magic have a very good overall team...

Uhhh, Dwight can't attack the basket? Then why the hell does he get to the line so damn much?! Do you even watch Dwight play?

Here are various NBA big men in their best seasons(stats were only kept since '03) and the percentage of their baskets that teammates assisted on.

Dwight in 2009- 51% of his baskets were assisted
Amare in 2005 and 2008- 60% and 70% of his baskets were assisted on in those 2 seasons, respectively
Duncan in 2003- 46% of his baskets were assisted on
Garnett in 2004- 67% of his baskets were assisted on
Yao in 2007- 67% of his baskets were assisted on

So lets destroy this myth that Dwight can't create his own offense. Going and getting alley oops, driving to the basket and getting to the foul line ect. are ways to create your own offense and you know what? He scores a decent amount of his points in the post.

It's not like Dwight has some luxuary. In fact, his team's starting PG is below average as a passer among starting PG.

I think I've destroyed just about every myth about Dwight, yet it will fall on deaf ears for the most part because people believe what they want to believe.

[necya]

Uhhh, Dwight can't attack the basket? Then why the hell does he get to the line so damn much?! Do you even watch Dwight play?

Here are various NBA big men in their best seasons(stats were only kept since '03) and the percentage of their baskets that teammates assisted on.

Dwight in 2009- 51% of his baskets were assisted
Amare in 2005 and 2008- 60% and 70% of his baskets were assisted on in those 2 seasons, respectively
Duncan in 2003- 46% of his baskets were assisted on
Garnett in 2004- 67% of his baskets were assisted on
Yao in 2007- 67% of his baskets were assisted on

So lets destroy this myth that Dwight can't create his own offense. Going and getting alley oops, driving to the basket and getting to the foul line ect. are ways to create your own offense and you know what? He scores a decent amount of his points in the post.

It's not like Dwight has some luxuary. In fact, his team's starting PG is below average as a passer among starting PG.

I think I've destroyed just about every myth about Dwight, yet it will fall on deaf ears for the most part because people believe what they want to believe.

yeah and he has a good mid range shot, some good fakes when he post up, good at the line and drives like alonzo mourning...you are annoying.
and your stat line can mean everything and nothing. it's your own interpretation. you talk like howard put 7 baskets by his great moves...YOU have not watched him.

the fact there is no competition doesn't mean that he is a great center like mourning as you think. mourning is just better than him in all parts of the games.

[Th3ShowMVP]

You never saw prime Alonzo Mourning play, you started watching the NBA in 2003, you're just an irrational Dwight Howard hater. Again, i give Zo a slight edge, butto say it's not close is ridiculous.

And Prime Alonzo Mourning is still greater/better Dwight Howard has and will ever be.

[alexandreben]

And Prime Alonzo Mourning is still greater/better Dwight Howard has and will ever be.
well, i have to say i agree with you in overall(offense+defense+intangeble assets) , back in the 90's, Zo was a clutch performer too, in the clutch moment he made his own shot and won the game more often than Howard too. On the other hand, Howard is a better rebounder no doubt.

[SCdac]

It's not like Dwight has some luxuary. In fact, his team's starting PG is below average as a passer among starting PG.

You think Jameer is a "below average" passer among starting PG? Can't say I agree, though we probably have different definitions of "average". While he's not on a Nash or Paul level, he can get you those 5-6 assists a night, and roughly 30% of the Magic's assists in the post season came from him. It's not like Dwight is playing with Jannero Pargo or something, I'm sure we agree on that. He averaged a decent 4.5 APG against the Bobcats when the Magic's best player/scorer played about 26-27 minutes a game. I don't think he's that much worse a passer than Derek Fisher, Tony Parker, Brandon Jennings, current Andre Miller. Maybe not as good a passer as Devin Harris, but somewhere around there. Per-36 minutes Jameer's assisting is pretty good, but the Magic are pretty deep and nobody really logs a ton of minutes. The first win the Magic had against the Boston was a game in which he had 9 assists, and he made back to back 3's in overtime. Dwight said after that game, "It starts with me and Jameer". I think Nelson deserves credit for what he brings / has brought to that team. Redick said in another article back in March, "He takes us to another level", talking about when Jameer is healthy and playing to his best level. Yes, Rafer Alston provided temporary relief in 2009, but he's not as good a player or passer IMO. Nelson in the 09 regular season averaged over 6 assists per contest against the Lakers, while Alston was closer to 3 APG.... All in all, I wouldn't really attribute Howard's regression, or lack of 22 PPG seasons, to Jameer's lack of point guard skills. Maybe he's less assisted than other players, but surely at some point in any players career you have to create off the dribble or for yourself. That Magic team is deep, and the scoring in general is pretty divided, sometimes it feels like Howard fans don't realize how his team helps him as much as he helps the team.

[Big#50]

The 90's and 80's were far better than this era? **** no. Scrubs actually played important roles back then. Imagine Hornacel guarding Kobe. LOL

[Dwade305]

The 90's and 80's were far better than this era? **** no. Scrubs actually played important roles back then. Imagine Hornacel guarding Kobe. LOL

They dont make em like Horny anymore wtf u talking about. What kind of whiteboy gives that effort nowadays?

[Big#50]

They dont make em like Horny anymore wtf u talking about. What kind of whiteboy gives that effort nowadays?
Imagine him guarding Kobe, Wade or Manu. I'm not saying he wasn't good but the NBA was not as good as now. Sure they had the stars but the rest of the league sucked.

[alexandreben]

Imagine him guarding Kobe, Wade or Manu. I'm not saying he wasn't good but the NBA was not as good as now. Sure they had the stars but the rest of the league sucked.
:facepalm
you posted 1558 posts on this board for Christ sake..

bed time for me, you guys continue your bizarre comments...

[Sarcastic]

Was Dwight Howard even 21 in that video?

[SEEBASS1234]

hey RG what are you gonna do if yao retires next year?
please tell me that you are leaving ISH

[Dwade305]

Was Dwight Howard even 21 in that video?
Does age really make a difference on a guy that will rely on athleticism his whole career?

[zORi]

Was Dwight Howard even 21 in that video?

Nah like 19 or 20. He's just looking for a reason to hate him, as usual.

[ShaqAttack3234]

yeah and he has a good mid range shot, some good fakes when he post up, good at the line and drives like alonzo mourning...you are annoying.
and your stat line can mean everything and nothing. it's your own interpretation. you talk like howard put 7 baskets by his great moves...YOU have not watched him.

the fact there is no competition doesn't mean that he is a great center like mourning as you think. mourning is just better than him in all parts of the games.

So Mourning is a better rebounder?

When it comes down to it, their offensive production was almost identical despite Mourning being more skilled offensively. Why is that? Because Dwight's physical advantages do help him produce on the court and that should NOT be held against him. Should we hold it against Yao that he's 7'6"? Should we hold Shaq's size and athleticism against him? Should we hold Jordan's big hands and vertical against him?

Dwight isn't Hakeem Olajuwon in the post, but he can score there and because of his rare physical talents, he can put points on the board in other ways.

You are a complete idiot. You have yet to make a good argument.

You said before that he had no talent and no skill, yet you can't explain why Dwight is the only center producing like that. If it took no talent then many centers should be able to do it, but they can't and other athletic big men don't block shots and rebound like him, in fact nobody in the league does and why is it that Tyson Chandler isn't 1/4 of the offensive player Dwight is despite also being athletic and playing with a great PG like Chris Paul for a few years?


And Prime Alonzo Mourning is still greater/better Dwight Howard has and will ever be.

You just basically said you didn't watch prime Alonzo Mourning so what the hell do you base that on?

As I said, I give Zo the edge so far as far as his prime vs Howard's to this date, but Howard is 24, it's obvious you're trolling when you say Dwight can't reach Zo's level.


You think Jameer is a "below average" passer among starting PG? Can't say I agree, though we probably have different definitions of "average". While he's not on a Nash or Paul level, he can get you those 5-6 assists a night, and roughly 30% of the Magic's assists in the post season came from him. It's not like Dwight is playing with Jannero Pargo or something, I'm sure we agree on that. He averaged a decent 4.5 APG against the Bobcats when the Magic's best player/scorer played about 26-27 minutes a game. I don't think he's that much worse a passer than Derek Fisher, Tony Parker, Brandon Jennings, current Andre Miller. Maybe not as good a passer as Devin Harris, but somewhere around there. Per-36 minutes Jameer's assisting is pretty good, but the Magic are pretty deep and nobody really logs a ton of minutes. The first win the Magic had against the Boston was a game in which he had 9 assists, and he made back to back 3's in overtime. Dwight said after that game, "It starts with me and Jameer". I think Nelson deserves credit for what he brings / has brought to that team. Redick said in another article back in March, "He takes us to another level", talking about when Jameer is healthy and playing to his best level. Yes, Rafer Alston provided temporary relief in 2009, but he's not as good a player or passer IMO. Nelson in the 09 regular season averaged over 6 assists per contest against the Lakers, while Alston was closer to 3 APG.... All in all, I wouldn't really attribute Howard's regression, or lack of 22 PPG seasons, to Jameer's lack of point guard skills. Maybe he's less assisted than other players, but surely at some point in any players career you have to create off the dribble or for yourself. That Magic team is deep, and the scoring in general is pretty divided, sometimes it feels like Howard fans don't realize how his team helps him as much as he helps the team.

Jameer had a great series against, but he had a great series because he was scoring so well.

You cited Mark Jackson's quote about the Magic not winning if they pound the ball into Howard in game 2, but Jeff Van Gundy and I believe Jackson as well talked about how Howard was getting open in the paint and Nelson wasn't finding him and I know Van Gundy called him a below average passer or poor passer, I don't know if he clarified that by saying poor or below average for his position.

And yes, I do think Nelson is below average for a starting PG as far as passing. he's a shoot-first 5'10" point guard with poor court vision. Alston is a better passer, IMO even if Nelson is more of a scoring threat.

Most of the names you mentioned are better passers IMO with the exception of Fisher who I've always considered a below average playmaker for his position, I've always viewed him as more of a combo guard.

I'm not saying that's a necessity for great big men in general. Shaq didn't have great passing PG during the 3peat, Kobe was a good playmaker already, but a scoring SG regardless and Shaq was averaging something like 31-32 ppg on 59-60% shooting in the 30 or so games Kobe missed during the 3peat. Duncan didn't have that either, so I'm not saying that's a big disadvantage for Dwight.

My point was, people act like he's just spoon-fed for baskets which is incorrect. he's not playing with Nash or Chris Paul.

I do believe nelson to be below average as a passer/playmaker for his position, but even if you disagree, we can agree that he's average at best in that department and as I showed, a lower % of his baskets are assisted on than many other elite big men.

I'm really not a fan of Nelson's game, I'll admit I was impressed earlier in the playoffs, but I was impressed by his scoring. I mean Orlando did lose Nelson and they replaced him Rafer Alston and they made it all the way to the finals.

I do think that Orlando's 3 point shooting gives Howard more space and vice versa.

[Th3ShowMVP]

You just basically said you didn't watch prime Alonzo Mourning so what the hell do you base that on?

As I said, I give Zo the edge so far as far as his prime vs Howard's to this date, but Howard is 24, it's obvious you're trolling when you say Dwight can't reach Zo's level.

Mourning always has been and always will be on another level than Dwight Howard. It's really simple, but you being a Dwight Howard stan, it's hard to be objective eh?

[ShaqAttack3234]

Mourning always has been and always will be on another level than Dwight Howard. It's really simple, but you being a Dwight Howard stan, it's hard to be objective eh?

How would you know he's on another level if you didn't watch Zo in his prime?

[Th3ShowMVP]

How would you know he's on another level if you didn't watch Zo in his prime?
Because I watched him in his prime. Plus, everybody knows Zo is better/greater than Dwight. Zo had offense, Howroids, your favorite player? Not so much.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Because I watched him in his prime. Plus, everybody knows Zo is better/greater than Dwight. Zo had offense, Howroids, your favorite player? Not so much.

No you didn't. Funny, considering Dwight's offensive production is basically identical to prime Alonzo Mourning. How the hell is averaging 20+ ppg in the regular season and playoffs on great efficiency not having offense you ****ing moron?

You're a waste of life, you don't even believe half the crap you type. Why do you bother?

[Th3ShowMVP]

No you didn't. Funny, considering Dwight's offensive production is basically identical to prime Alonzo Mourning. How the hell is averaging 20+ ppg in the regular season and playoffs on great efficiency not having offense you ****ing moron?

You're a waste of life, you don't even believe half the crap you type. Why do you bother?
Check out the playoffs production, opps I forgot Mourning didn't drop 40 on the Cavs, so he's not better. :oldlol:

Mourning always has been and always will be better and greater than Dwight. Hell, I'm pretty sure Mourning coming out of retirement would have a better offensive game than Dwight.

[tpols]

No you didn't. Funny, considering Dwight's offensive production is basically identical to prime Alonzo Mourning. How the hell is averaging 20+ ppg in the regular season and playoffs on great efficiency not having offense you ****ing moron?

I think he means his complete lack of a finesse game, no shooting touch, and no complex post moves.

Howard is a great defensive talent and is athletic enough to finish around the rim effectively but he doesn't seem to have the coordination of a duncan, garnett, or even stoudemire on the offensive side of the ball.

[brantonli]

Uhhh, Dwight can't attack the basket? Then why the hell does he get to the line so damn much?! Do you even watch Dwight play?

Here are various NBA big men in their best seasons(stats were only kept since '03) and the percentage of their baskets that teammates assisted on.

Dwight in 2009- 51% of his baskets were assisted
Amare in 2005 and 2008- 60% and 70% of his baskets were assisted on in those 2 seasons, respectively
Duncan in 2003- 46% of his baskets were assisted on
Garnett in 2004- 67% of his baskets were assisted on
Yao in 2007- 67% of his baskets were assisted on


Ok, I know it's off topic, but Yao was assisted on 67% of his baskets? I just find that hard to believe...

[ShaqAttack3234]

Check out the playoffs production, opps I forgot Mourning didn't drop 40 on the Cavs, so he's not better. :oldlol:

Mourning always has been and always will be better and greater than Dwight. Hell, I'm pretty sure Mourning coming out of retirement would have a better offensive game than Dwight.

You want playoff production? I hate doing this and pointing out his numerous failures in the playoffs because I was an Alonzo Mourning fan, but I'll continue to destroy you.

1993- 23.8 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 1.4 apg, 3.4 bpg, 4.1 TO, 48 FG%, 77.4 FT%, 9 games

Good first playoff run, had the series-winning shot vs Boston, but he shot 4/16 in game 4 vs the Knicks and he had 6 turnovers and he shot 5/16 in game 5.

1995- 22 ppg, 13.3 rpg, 2.8 apg, 3.3 bpg, 3.5 TO, 42.1 FG%, 83.7 FT%, 4 games

Nothing special and a first round exit on 42% shooting.

1996- 18 ppg, 6 rpg, 1.3 apg, 1 bpg, 5.3 TO, 48.6 FG%, 71.4 FT%, 3 games

6 rebounds per game? 1 block? Over 5 turnovers per game? Under 50% shooting again? A second straight first round exit

1997- 17.8 ppg, 10.2 rpg, 1.1 apg, 2.7 bpg, 4.1 TO, 49.1 FG%, 55.5 FT%, 17 games

Funny how you love talking about Dwight's free throw shooting and his 3rd playoff run with over 4 turnovers per game and once again, under 50% shooting. They got to the ECF, but when Dwight does that...it's no big deal....and even this year, Dwight's production destroyed this in the playoffs, much less in 2009. And, a second straight playoff run with around 18 ppg, less efficient than Dwight's 18 ppg playoff run this year or 19 ppg playoff run in 2008, much less his 20 ppg playoff run in 2009. Yet, Dwight has no offense..........by the way, Mourning had 13 point and 8 rebounds on 1/4 from the field with 7 turnovers in the elimination game.

1998- 19.3 ppg, 8.5 rpg, 1.3 apg, 2.5 bpg, 2 TO, 51.8 FG%, 65.5 FT%, 4 games

Another first round exit, not only did he finish below 9 rpg, but his scoring average was roughly Dwight's career playoff average and that includes his first playoff series when he wasn't even a superstar yet and about 2 years younger than Mourning was as a rookie.

1999- 21.6 ppg, 8.2 rpg, 0.8 apg, 2.8 bpg, 2.4 TO, 52.1 FG%, 65.3 FT%, 5 games

Fairly good numbers, except for the pretty weak effort on the glass. But in game 5, he was outscored by an injured, 37 year old Ewing and Ewing outrebounded him 11-5. Ewing was so obviously injured that I didn't think he was going to finish the game. And oh yeah, did I mention that this was another first round exit? Not only that, he lost game 5 on his homecourt while his team became only the second number 1 seed to lose to an 8 seed. Ewing also averaged 10.8 rpg to easily outrebounded Zo in the series.

2000- 21.6 ppg, 10 rpg, 1.4 apg, 3.3 bpg, 2.4 TO, 48.4 FG%, 66.7 FT%, 10 games

Good numbers, but again, nothing Dwight hasn't proven he can do, but again, under 50% shooting in the playoffs and again, he was outrebounded by Ewing in the series he was eliminated in, this time by the same Ewing who would turn 38 that year. Hell, Ewing's career was almost over at that point.

Lets put this into perspective. In just 3 years as a superstar, Dwight has won more playoff series than Zo did during his entire 8 year prime. Dwight's 2009 run was clearly superior to any of Zo's playoff runs and you're talking about playoff production? :roll:

[Th3ShowMVP]

You want playoff production? I hate doing this and pointing out his numerous failures in the playoffs because I was an Alonzo Mourning fan, but I'll continue to destroy you.

1993- 23.8 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 1.4 apg, 3.4 bpg, 4.1 TO, 48 FG%, 77.4 FT%, 9 games

Good first playoff run, had the series-winning shot vs Boston, but he shot 4/16 in game 4 vs the Knicks and he had 6 turnovers and he shot 5/16 in game 5.

1995- 22 ppg, 13.3 rpg, 2.8 apg, 3.3 bpg, 3.5 TO, 42.1 FG%, 83.7 FT%, 4 games

Nothing special and a first round exit on 42% shooting.

1996- 18 ppg, 6 rpg, 1.3 apg, 1 bpg, 5.3 TO, 48.6 FG%, 71.4 FT%, 3 games

6 rebounds per game? 1 block? Over 5 turnovers per game? Under 50% shooting again? A second straight first round exit

1997- 17.8 ppg, 10.2 rpg, 1.1 apg, 2.7 bpg, 4.1 TO, 49.1 FG%, 55.5 FT%, 17 games

Funny how you love talking about Dwight's free throw shooting and his 3rd playoff run with over 4 turnovers per game and once again, under 50% shooting. They got to the ECF, but when Dwight does that...it's no big deal....and even this year, Dwight's production destroyed this in the playoffs, much less in 2009. And, a second straight playoff run with around 18 ppg, less efficient than Dwight's 18 ppg playoff run this year or 19 ppg playoff run in 2008, much less his 20 ppg playoff run in 2009. Yet, Dwight has no offense..........by the way, Mourning had 13 point and 8 rebounds on 1/4 from the field with 7 turnovers in the elimination game.

1998- 19.3 ppg, 8.5 rpg, 1.3 apg, 2.5 bpg, 2 TO, 51.8 FG%, 65.5 FT%, 4 games

Another first round exit, not only did he finish below 9 rpg, but his scoring average was roughly Dwight's career playoff average and that includes his first playoff series when he wasn't even a superstar yet and about 2 years younger than Mourning was as a rookie.

1999- 21.6 ppg, 8.2 rpg, 0.8 apg, 2.8 bpg, 2.4 TO, 52.1 FG%, 65.3 FT%, 5 games

Fairly good numbers, except for the pretty weak effort on the glass. But in game 5, he was outscored by an injured, 37 year old Ewing and Ewing outrebounded him 11-5. Ewing was so obviously injured that I didn't think he was going to finish the game. And oh yeah, did I mention that this was another first round exit? Not only that, he lost game 5 on his homecourt while his team became only the second number 1 seed to lose to an 8 seed. Ewing also averaged 10.8 rpg to easily outrebounded Zo in the series.

2000- 21.6 ppg, 10 rpg, 1.4 apg, 3.3 bpg, 2.4 TO, 48.4 FG%, 66.7 FT%, 10 games

Good numbers, but again, nothing Dwight hasn't proven he can do, but again, under 50% shooting in the playoffs and again, he was outrebounded by Ewing in the series he was eliminated in, this time by the same Ewing who would turn 38 that year. Hell, Ewing's career was almost over at that point.

Lets put this into perspective. In just 3 years as a superstar, Dwight has won more playoff series than Zo did during his entire 8 year prime. Dwight's 2009 run was clearly superior to any of Zo's playoff runs and you're talking about playoff production? :roll:
Yep, like I said. Mourning was better offensively than Howard, he was on another planet than him actually. That alone separates Zo from Howard. Not to mention, Zo was the better defender too. Dwight was the better rebounder, that's about it.

No Nick Anderson moments for Zo either.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Yep, like I said. Mourning was better offensively than Howard, he was on another planet than him actually. That alone separates Zo from Howard. Not to mention, Zo was the better defender too. Dwight was the better rebounder, that's about it.

No Nick Anderson moments for Zo either.

Just as I expected, you have no response.

[Th3ShowMVP]

Just as I expected, you have no response.
Zo has no Nick Anderson moments, Zo has a ring, Zo demands double-teams, Zo doesn't get shut down in single coverage because of size or strength, Zo can create his own offense, Zo can create his own shot against any post-defender regardless of the defender, What more needs to be said?

Hedo > VC btw.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Zo has no Nick Anderson moments, Zo has a ring, Zo demands double-teams, Zo doesn't get shut down in single coverage because of size or strength, Zo can create his own offense, Zo can create his own shot against any post-defender regardless of the defender, What more needs to be said?

Dwight doesn't have any Nick Anderson moments either, Nick Anderson missed 4 straight free throws and he was a 70% free throw shooter, Dwight is a 59% free throw shooter who missed 2 straight. There's a reason why people still talk about Anderson's misses 15 years later and 1 year later, almost nobody except for you mentions Dwight's misses. We've been over this, I've destroyed you on this many times, but because of your homosexual love for Yao, you refuse to accept it.

Yeah, Zo was really creating his own shot at a great rate in the '95 playoffs on 42% shooting or '96 with 18 ppg with 5+ turnovers and 49% shooting. How about '97? 18 ppg with 4+ turnovers on 49% shooting again?

Dwight doesn't get held to 6 rebounds in a playoff series or consistently below 10 in playoff runs, much less the majority of them, Dwight doesn't continually get knocked out of the playoffs in the first round and oh yeah....

Dwight not only got to the finals as a starter, but the franchise player. Can Zo claim he did either? No.

I'll still give Zo an edge as a player, but it's funny that you mention the playoffs because Howard's playoff resume at 24 already crushes Zo's.

Are you going to kill yourself if Yao retires?

[SCdac]

Ok, I know it's off topic, but Yao was assisted on 67% of his baskets? I just find that hard to believe...

Well, he takes more shots and scores more (at least in 2007), so surely he gets more chances as completing an "assist". 17 FGA per game, many times he'd take more (20+ FGA). About half of Yao's scoring (51%) comes from jump shooting (his jumper is clean), maybe more opportunities come up (to catch and shoot) when you have range outside the paint. 75% of KG's shot attempts came from jump shots in 2004, and his was "assisted" on well more then half (keep in mind he was scoring 24 PPG and taking 20 FGA). Amare too takes a good amount of jumpers (51%). Tim Duncan was indeed creating his own shots back in 2003, but he had range, and the ball handling skills Dwight doesn't have, so it amounted to a better chance at winning the ball-game putting the ball in his hands. Roughly 60% of Duncan's shooting came from jump shots back in 2003 (not uncommon for a PF with decent range), and only 40% of his shot attempts came from "inside the paint". From that scoring inside the paint, only 49% was "assisted", yet Dwight was attempting way more of his shots inside the paint (87%) and at basically the same assist percentage (50%)... Does that lead us to believe Dwight is ultimately a "better" scorer inside the paint than Tim Duncan? Maybe from a purely physical and athletic standpoint, but not really from a reasonable understanding of basketball standpoint. This is where I think stats can be misleading, particularly how much of a players points are "assisted". Dwight has the bulk, power, and quickness to finish dunks, and easy points from offensive rebounds. A good 25% of Dwight's shooting comes from dunks (and it's largely assisted, alley-oops and such), whereas only 9% of Duncan's shooting came from dunks, yet Duncan scored almost as much "inside the paint" (9.3 points to 11.8 points). It doesn't quite matter "how many" of your points you can create on your own as a low-post player, if you're only taking like 10 shots through out a 48 minute game, and it's also attached with nearly 4 turnovers a game, and not many assists to show for "points scored by yourself". 10 shots a game, is about the same as Al Horford and Roy Hibbert.... Certainly that'll have to improve for Dwight Howard, taking more shots, expanding his range, improving his ball handling and facilitating out of the post.

[jlauber]

I can't believe that this topic has gone as far as it has.

Does ANYONE honestly believe that Howard is not a Top-5 player in the NBA right now? He is only 25, too.

I get a kick out of these "anti-Dwight", or "anti-Lebron", or even "anti-Kobe" posts. C'mon, let's use COMMON SENSE here. It's one thing to not like a player...it is quite another to rip a GREAT player.

[Th3ShowMVP]

Dwight doesn't have any Nick Anderson moments either, Nick Anderson missed 4 straight free throws and he was a 70% free throw shooter, Dwight is a 59% free throw shooter who missed 2 straight. There's a reason why people still talk about Anderson's misses 15 years later and 1 year later, almost nobody except for you mentions Dwight's misses. We've been over this, I've destroyed you on this many times, but because of your homosexual love for Yao, you refuse to accept it.

Yeah, Zo was really creating his own shot at a great rate in the '95 playoffs on 42% shooting or '96 with 18 ppg with 5+ turnovers and 49% shooting. How about '97? 18 ppg with 4+ turnovers on 49% shooting again?

Dwight doesn't get held to 6 rebounds in a playoff series or consistently below 10 in playoff runs, much less the majority of them, Dwight doesn't continually get knocked out of the playoffs in the first round and oh yeah....

Dwight not only got to the finals as a starter, but the franchise player. Can Zo claim he did either? No.

I'll still give Zo an edge as a player, but it's funny that you mention the playoffs because Howard's playoff resume at 24 already crushes Zo's.

Are you going to kill yourself if Yao retires?
I guess Dwight had half a Nick Anderson moment then. But meh, Zo is clearly the better player. He doesn't get shut down by Perkins, Davis, Haywood, Yao, etc.

[SCdac]

At least Dwight didn't have go up against Micheal freakin Jordan and Scottie Pippen, with a cast of Larry Johnson, 5-3 Muggsy, Hersey Hawkins, Dell Curry, etc, all of which were "good" players, but not exactly the best cast to get past Phil Jackson's Bulls. Surely, Zo's Hornets and Heat would have had a better chance against the 44-win Bobcats and 53-win Atlanta Hawks of the 2010 eastern conference. How many big men has Dwight Howard gone against the caliber of Patrick Ewing in the playoffs? Getting outplayed by one of the greats (even at an older age, Ewing was good), is different than being thrown of your game by Perkins, Gasol, Bynum, Wallace, McDyess, etc. Hell,

[Th3ShowMVP]

At least Dwight didn't have go up against Micheal freakin Jordan and Scottie Pippen, with a cast of Larry Johnson, 5-3 Muggsy, Hersey Hawkins, Dell Curry, etc, all of which were "good" players, but not exactly the best cast to get past Phil Jackson's Bulls. Surely, Zo's Hornets and Heat would have had a better chance against the 44-win Bobcats and 53-win Atlanta Hawks of the 2010 eastern conference. How many big men has Dwight Howard gone against the caliber of Patrick Ewing in the playoffs? Getting outplayed by one of the greats (even at an older age, Ewing was good), is different than being thrown of your game by Perkins, Gasol, Bynum, Wallace, McDyess, etc. Hell,
he scored 40 over big z and the cavs, that's all that matters bro.

[ShaqAttack3234]

At least Dwight didn't have go up against Micheal freakin Jordan and Scottie Pippen, with a cast of Larry Johnson, 5-3 Muggsy, Hersey Hawkins, Dell Curry, etc, all of which were "good" players, but not exactly the best cast to get past Phil Jackson's Bulls. Surely, Zo's Hornets and Heat would have had a better chance against the 44-win Bobcats and 53-win Atlanta Hawks of the 2010 eastern conference. How many big men has Dwight Howard gone against the caliber of Patrick Ewing? Getting outplayed by one of the greats (even at an older age, Ewing was good), is different than being thrown of your game by Perkins, Gasol, Bynum, Wallace, McDyess, etc.

Come on, Gasol in 2009 was much better than an injured 1999 Ewing.

And really, Dwight averaged something like 16/17/3 on 55% shooting in the 2009 playoffs vs Perkins and Orlando won, this year 22/11/3 on 57% shooting. So really where's the problem? He won in 2009 and had a dominant rebounding/defensive series and a decent offensive season. This year, he proved he could score vs Perkins with two very efficient 30+ point games and a 28 point game. yeah, he lost, but if people will complain about his offense in the series he won then it can be praised in the series he lost.

And I don't buy the competition argument. The East in 1999 and 2000 was definitely weaker than it's been the last 3 years and he didn't get to the finals or conference finals either season.

As long as we're talking about competition at the center position, Dwight was thrown off his game by a team with a center combination of Luc Longley and Bill Wennington in '96, yeah, Rodman guarded centers for stretches, but he averaged just 17.8 mpg that series. And he shot 42% vs a Bulls team with Longley/Wennington/Perdue, didn't even have Rodman yet, hell, they started Kukoc at PF.

The competition argument only goes so far.

I still think prime Zo>Dwight, but not by much, however, Howard is already having a better playoff career than prime Zo did.

[SCdac]

Come on, Gasol in 2009 was much better than an injured 1999 Ewing.

Yeah, but Zo also faced Ewing prior to that, he got past the Knicks in 1997 and went on to face the Bulls. Has Dwight ever faced a big man that good (97 Ewing) in the playoffs? Let alone a team lead by a player as special as Jordan?


And really, Dwight averaged something like 16/17/3 on 55% shooting in the 2009 playoffs vs Perkins and Orlando won, this year 22/11/3 on 57% shooting. So really where's the problem? He won in 2009 and had a dominant rebounding/defensive series and a decent offensive season. This year, he proved he could score vs Perkins with two very efficient 30+ point games and a 28 point game. yeah, he lost, but if people will complain about his offense in the series he won then it can be praised in the series he lost.

Part of the problem with that is, facing a Celtics team without their starting power forward, without their full front court, is different than them facing them with it. Does he deserve credit for it, for sure (just like Mourning deserves credit for his winning series'). But it's not quite the same.

Having two big games in the 2010 series didn't "prove" anything IMO, the team lost the first and third game in large part because Howard had bad games. He proved that he can have a big game against that team, but not consistently enough to get past them. If anything he's proved that he needs to WORK on his game, not being content with it. Otherwise, there wouldn't be any talk about regression.


And I don't buy the competition argument. The East in 1999 and 2000 was definitely weaker than it's been the last 3 years and he didn't get to the finals or conference finals either season.

Losing to the Knicks isn't that absurd, when looking at Zo's roster. Knicks in 1999 made the Finals (obviously) and in 2000 they finished with a respectable 50-32. Eh, I don't have any of these games fresh on my memory (though I def watched the Spurs 99 run), but to say different levels and different kinds of competition don't play a factor in a players career wouldn't be right, or realistic.

Even I'll admit that the Spurs were "fortunate" to run into the Cavaliers in 2007, rather than maybe a more balanced team like the 2005 Pistons or 2006 Mavericks. Does it take anything away? No. But should it be put in perspective by even the biggest Spurs fan, sure.


As long as we're talking about competition at the center position, Dwight was thrown off his game by a team with a center combination of Luc Longley and Bill Wennington in '96, yeah, Rodman guarded centers for stretches, but he averaged just 17.8 mpg that series. And he shot 42% vs a Bulls team with Longley/Wennington/Perdue, didn't even have Rodman yet, hell, they started Kukoc at PF.

The competition argument only goes so far.

I'll take the 90's Bulls' defense over MANY of the best defenses Dwight has ever faced... But if prime Zo was being thrown of his game by those particular bigs, how would current Dwight Howard have fared, know what I mean?


I still think prime Zo>Dwight, but not by much, however, Howard is already having a better playoff career than prime Zo did.

Thanks in large part to having a better team, at the right time, IMO. I mean, how many points did Dwight score when the Magic eliminated the 76'ers in game 6 of 2009? It's not like he doesn't have a great team around him, surrounding him with double-digit scorers.

I'm not saying Alonzo Mourning was anything more than he was, he wasn't on a level of Tim Duncan or Shaquille O'Neal or something. I don't think he really think he could propel his rosters singlehandedly to the Finals in his best years. But if he couldn't do it, and their careers are comparable, can Dwight Howard?

[TheAnchorman]

Yeah, but Zo also faced Ewing prior to that, he got past the Knicks in 1997 and went on to face the Bulls. Has Dwight ever faced a big man that good (97 Ewing) in the playoffs? Let alone a team lead by a player as special as Jordan?
Just so you know, I consider that series somewhat screwed up. Heading into Game 5 the Knicks were sitting on a 3-1 lead over the Heat, until that brawl destroyed everything. It decimated the Knicks, and was a crucial factor in Miami winning the series.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Yeah, but Zo also faced Ewing prior to that, he got past the Knicks in 1997 and went on to face the Bulls. Has Dwight ever faced a big man that good (97 Ewing) in the playoffs? Let alone a team lead by a player as special as Jordan?

That's true, but again, a prime Alonzo Mourning in a weak East didn't get to the finals or conference finals in '99 or '00.


Part of the problem with that is, facing a Celtics team without their starting power forward, without their full front court, is different than them facing them with it. Does he deserve credit for it, for sure (just like Mourning deserves credit for his winning series'). But it's not quite the same.

Yeah, but was always comes up is Dwight vs Perkins. Dwight did enough for his team to win the series in '09, he wasn't bad offensively either, not dominant, but certainly not bad but the 17 rpg is impressive in itself and it's a huge bonus and not many players are capable of that or his defensive impact and offensively, Alonzo Mourning has had playoff series that weren't really better than that offensively.


Having two big games in the 2010 series didn't "prove" anything IMO, the team lost the first and third game in large part because Howard had bad games. He proved that he can have a big game against that team, but not consistently enough to get past them. If anything he's proved that he needs to WORK on his game, not being content with it. Otherwise, there wouldn't be any talk about regression.

My point was more in response to RocketGreatness or The3ShowMVP who said Dwight can't do anything offensively vs Perkins. I agree that he had 2 horrible games offensively and it was kind of a case of too little, too late, even though the 30 point game was in game 2

One thing is, I haven't claimed once in this thread that Dwight is a dominate offensive player, but my whole argument is that 20 ppg scorers, particularly the leading scorers on finals teams aren't just average, much less below average offensive players.

And really, the bottom line is how effective you can be. Dwight is at an age where he can consistently use his physical gifts and he can use them enough to produce at an almost identical rate to prime Mouring offensive


Losing to the Knicks isn't that absurd, when looking at Zo's roster. Knicks in 1999 made the Finals (obviously) and in 2000 they finished with a respectable 50-32. Eh, I don't have any of these games fresh on my memory (though I def watched the Spurs 99 run), but to say different levels and different kinds of competition don't play a factor in a players career wouldn't be right, or realistic.

I was rooting for that Knicks team, but with an injured 37 year old Ewing, they really "shouldn't" have beat Miami, IMO and Zo getting outrebounded by 6 while Ewing and him were basically even as far as scoring in the deciding 5th game made me gain a lot of respect for Ewing, but at the same time, some of that has to fall on Mourning's shoulders. At that point, he was the superior player and he should have outplayed Ewing, particularly with the injury that was blatant throughout the game.


I'll take the 90's Bulls' defense over MANY of the best defenses Dwight has ever faced... But if prime Zo was being thrown of his game by those particular bigs, how would current Dwight Howard have fared, know what I mean?

Yeah, but then again, the Celtics team Dwight faced this year was a great defensive team, we saw what they did to Kobe and Lebron(even though Kobe won) and while Dwight didn't have a "successful" series "neither did Zo.


Thanks in large part to having a better team, at the right time, IMO. I mean, how many points did Dwight score when the Magic eliminated the 76'ers in game 6 of 2009? It's not like he doesn't have a great team around him, surrounding him with double-digit scorers.

That's true, but Zo had talent around him. Larry Johnson in '93 and Tim Hardaway in '97 and that '97 Heat team was also very talented, I mean the '97 Heat were 12-4 without him during the season, and the '98 Heat were 16-8 without him so those were talented teams as well.


I'm not saying Alonzo Mourning was anything more than he was, he wasn't on a level of Tim Duncan or Shaquille O'Neal or something. I don't think he really think he could propel his rosters singlehandedly to the Finals in his best years. But if he couldn't do it, and their careers are comparable, can Dwight Howard?

No, I was just making a point to The3ShowMVp or RG, whatever you can't to call him.

He said to check their playoff production as if Zo's production in the playoffs was superior which isn't the case. I did go out of my way to point out his flaws and I said before hand that I don't really like doing that, but because every flaw about Dwight is magnified and his qualities are minimized with RG and that one other idiot who said Dwight had no talent, that's how I felt like making a point.

[triangleoffense]

yea Dwight is definitely better and will be considered better than Mourning when it's all said and done. Mourning has never even whiffed 14 rpg seasons.. and Dwight is barely now hitting his prime, which may be higher than expected since big men take a while to develop sometimes.

Howard has already been to the Finals way before Mourning has and he did it as the sole anchor and #1 guy on their team. He also had to do it against the defending champs and a 66 win Cavs team.

[necya]

you obviously forgot what mourning was...
you are pathetic with your stats though. he took 14rbd so he is better at rebounding the ball? brain of child.
your howard faced which great centers in his life? no one.
Mourning? he faced the best at this spot, and played with very good PF who took rebounds too. LJ and PJ Brown.
when horace is come to orlando, shaq's rebounds fall a bit and so? he was better before? pff
when i say he is a better rebounder, he learnt at georgetown how to play his body between the basket and the player, dwight howard often forget to block his opponent. technically howard knows nothing about basketball.

stop acting like morons with your stats like the assisted basket of Howard 51%. so? that mean he put moves on the non assisted plays and no moves on assited plays? so he can't put a basket after missing his own bad shot? on his 6 buckets scored this year, it would mean that he put 3 moves if you listen to your awesome reflection shaqattack...don't you find your argumentation stupid?

then, yeah he has only a extraordinary athletic body, shaq had too, but he had spin moves, fade away, fakes...
and the thing he made the finals before mourning is not an explication to say that howard can match mourning.

stay in your ignorance, your buddy is a joke, another lucky player who can appear as a pseudo star only because there is no center anymore.

[ShaqAttack3234]

technically howard knows nothing about basketball.

Right, a star player in the NBA knows nothing about basketball and an idiot like you thinks you can average 20 ppg without skills really knows about basketball......


stop acting like morons with your stats like the assisted basket of Howard 51%. so? that mean he put moves on the non assisted plays and no moves on assited plays? so he can't put a basket after missing his own bad shot? on his 6 buckets scored this year, it would mean that he put 3 moves if you listen to your awesome reflection shaqattack...don't you find your argumentation stupid?

The point that he's only assisted on 51% of his baskets was to those who act like he can't create his own offense. He doesn't need to be spoon-fed to score and that's just more proof.

And I really hope English isn't your first language because I have no idea what you're trying to say the majority of the time.

[zORi]

Yeah, but Zo also faced Ewing prior to that, he got past the Knicks in 1997 and went on to face the Bulls. Has Dwight ever faced a big man that good (97 Ewing) in the playoffs? Let alone a team lead by a player as special as Jordan?


Didn't Ewing sh*t on Mourning in that series, repeatedly? The Knicks had multiple suspensions in Games 6 and 7, and that was the only time the Heat beat them in a series. The Heat were 1-3 before the suspension game.

Game 7:
Ewing: 37/17/2blks/63%
Mourning: 22/12/4blks/50%

Game 6:
Ewing was suspended

Game 5:
Ewing: 19/7/0/47%
Mourning: 13/8/1/33%

Game 4:
Ewing: 20/7/3blks/61%
Mourning: 13/9/2blks/31%

Game 3:
Ewing: 25/11/2blks/57%
Mourning: 14/7/3blks/53%

It continues on like this. This doesn't help the argument, Mourning had stiffer competition that he didn't do so well against.

EDIT: To be fair, I did go back and look at Games 1 & 2, and Mourning definitely bested him there.

[necya]

Right, a star player in the NBA knows nothing about basketball and an idiot like you thinks you can average 20 ppg without skills really knows about basketball......



The point that he's only assisted on 51% of his baskets was to those who act like he can't create his own offense. He doesn't need to be spoon-fed to score and that's just more proof.

And I really hope English isn't your first language because I have no idea what you're trying to say the majority of the time.

just remember you are nothing without your basketball-reference site, numbers have to be taken with caution. you just forgot to watch games.

in all case, when you post something you have always right, you always think you destroy people with your awesome arguments. just look at you boy, you use to pick only the stats who make the sense you want, from your favorite site. but you have no idea of the differnece between howard and mourning for sure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71yVR0PyctM (the only video i have found not titled howard block)
howard 40pts 14rbd look at all this moves...it's easy to dominate when there is nothing to dominate. he only dunked with no defenders. nba 00's where amamzing happens...oh yeah

[Th3ShowMVP]

yea Dwight is definitely better and will be considered better than Mourning when it's all said and done. Mourning has never even whiffed 14 rpg seasons.. and Dwight is barely now hitting his prime, which may be higher than expected since big men take a while to develop sometimes.

Howard has already been to the Finals way before Mourning has and he did it as the sole anchor and #1 guy on their team. He also had to do it against the defending champs and a 66 win Cavs team.
:roll: you are about as dumb as ShaqAttack.

[ShaqAttack3234]

just remember you are nothing without your basketball-reference site, numbers have to be taken with caution. you just forgot to watch games.

in all case, when you post something you have always right, you always think you destroy people with your awesome arguments. just look at you boy, you use to pick only the stats who make the sense you want, from your favorite site. but you have no idea of the differnece between howard and mourning for sure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71yVR0PyctM (the only video i have found not titled howard block)
howard 40pts 14rbd look at all this moves...it's easy to dominate when there is nothing to dominate.


I guarantee I watch more games than you do. And I saw the moves in that video.

Nice pick and roll play with Turkoglu, he scored off of 4 offensive rebounds, 2 of them were and 1s, he used his athleticism to sprint down court for a dunk, he caught the ball in the post and drove past Ilgauskas for the left handed dunk and the foul. He caught the ball in the post and hit a nice running shot vs Varejao. He caught the ball in the post and spun away from the help with a nice 360 spin move and he finished with a dunk.

And of course, that's just 9 of his 14 field goals. But that's a nice variety in 8 of his 14 field goals. Crashing the offensive glass four times resulting in baskets(he had 6 offensive rebounds total), made 3 face up moves in the post, used his athleticism to his advantage for the easy dunk in transition and he executed the pick and roll play well with his teammate.

I don't see the criticism. He mixed up his game very well, scored in a variety of ways and a lot of it was effort. If anything, that should be praised. One win away from the finals and Dwight was focused, playing intelligently and giving his best effort and it resulted in a hell of a game.

Regardless of excuses a 40/14/4 closeout game in the conference finals in damn impressive.

[Th3ShowMVP]

Regardless of excuses a 40/14/4 closeout game in the conference finals in damn impressive.
:oldlol:

[necya]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=162859

here is my list of games

[Th3ShowMVP]

just remember you are nothing without your basketball-reference site, numbers have to be taken with caution. you just forgot to watch games.

in all case, when you post something you have always right, you always think you destroy people with your awesome arguments. just look at you boy, you use to pick only the stats who make the sense you want, from your favorite site. but you have no idea of the differnece between howard and mourning for sure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71yVR0PyctM (the only video i have found not titled howard block)
howard 40pts 14rbd look at all this moves...it's easy to dominate when there is nothing to dominate. he only dunked with no defenders. nba 00's where amamzing happens...oh yeah
Nice job destroying DwightHowardAttack. then again that's like dwight dominating big z. :oldlol:

[ShaqAttack3234]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=162859

here is my list of games

Yeah, and I've been watching the NBA since '93 and I am a member of sport-scene.net and have downloaded numerous games, own dozens on DVD, have watched countless ones on youtube, Hardwood Classics on NBA TV and ESPN Classic. So don't give me bullshit like I don't watch games.

You're penalizing a guy for using his athleticism and working hard on the offensive glass to get his points?

[Th3ShowMVP]

So don't give me bullshit like I don't watch games.

you don't, so it's not bullshit.

[JDKMagic]

There are a few topics that I just can't really touch anymore... it seems as if once someone gains a certain perception and starts floating it out there for others to read, they latch on because they themselves have no idea what the hell is going on and are far, far from students of the game. So they repeat said perceptions as if they were their own and the ignorance marches on...

"Howard has no post moves" (false), "Kobe Bryant is the best player in the game" (always has been false), "Steve Nash deserved either MVP award" (false), "Wilt couldn't play in today's game" (false), etc, etc...

The list goes on. Most people just don't understand basketball, don't watch anything other than the ball and have no idea what's going on in the game. I've mostly accepted it.

[ShaqAttack3234]

you don't, so it's not bullshit.

Then why the hell would I have an account at sport-scene.net? :roll:

You don't contribute anything and everyone hates you. These are facts.

Pretty soon, Yao will be irrelevant to the league just like he was last year. Who will you obsess over then?

[necya]

Yeah, and I've been watching the NBA since '93 and I am a member of sport-scene.net and have downloaded numerous games, own dozens on DVD, have watched countless ones on youtube, Hardwood Classics on NBA TV and ESPN Classic. So don't give me bullshit like I don't watch games.

You're penalizing a guy for using his athleticism and working hard on the offensive glass to get his points?

i'm not penalizing, shaqattack, Howard has nothing to do besides a guy like Mourning, that's all. he is just not good, but all nba first team cause the level suck so much now, you have to choose someone...

on an athletic point he is amazing, but on a basketballistic point, he is weak.
if you have seen the beginning of the 90's you know that a shaq, a D.Rob, an Hakeem or a mourning would have reign every years, in terms of basketball and statiscally in the 00's.

[Th3ShowMVP]

Then why the hell would I have an account at sport-scene.net? :roll:

You don't contribute anything and everyone hates you. These are facts.

Pretty soon, Yao will be irrelevant to the league just like he was last year. Who will you obsess over then?
:roll: Because Yao>Dirk>Dwight, that sounds about accurate.

[ShaqAttack3234]

he is just not good

:wtf:


on an athletic point he is amazing, but on a basketballistic point, he is weak.[/QUOTE]

Except his athleticism allows him to be one of the more effective players in the league. And he's definitely a skilled rebounder.

Look at this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFLYqdd_fMI

As you can see, Tyson Chandler is very athletic too, so why is that Chandler only averaged double figures in scoring once? And that was only 11.8 ppg, less than a rookie Dwight Howard and Chandler did that while playing with the best point guard in the league, Chris Paul.

That's because offensively, it does take skills to do what Dwight does, just athleticism won't do it, look at Chandler.

[necya]

:wtf:

an athletic point he is amazing, but on a basketballistic point, he is weak.

Except his athleticism allows him to be one of the more effective players in the league. And he's definitely a skilled rebounder.

Look at this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFLYqdd_fMI

As you can see, Tyson Chandler is very athletic too, so why is that Chandler only averaged double figures in scoring once? And that was only 11.8 ppg, less than a rookie Dwight Howard and Chandler did that while playing with the best point guard in the league, Chris Paul.

That's because offensively, it does take skills to do what Dwight does, just athleticism won't do it, look at Chandler.[/QUOTE]


mmm, sorry but chandler is not a good player?! Bryant Reeves would own him, and has a dictionnary of moves comparing to Howard. sorry but there is not good centers.in 90's they were franchise players, in 00's they are completing the starting 5

i looked at this clip, and you can see there are 90% of blocks and some tip dunk. no moves, considering he actually plays, you can collect all his best highlights.
unfortunately, we can't have an access to all mourning games, cause in tis case, it would be another clip.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Except his athleticism allows him to be one of the more effective players in the league. And he's definitely a skilled rebounder.

Look at this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFLYqdd_fMI

As you can see, Tyson Chandler is very athletic too, so why is that Chandler only averaged double figures in scoring once? And that was only 11.8 ppg, less than a rookie Dwight Howard and Chandler did that while playing with the best point guard in the league, Chris Paul.

That's because offensively, it does take skills to do what Dwight does, just athleticism won't do it, look at Chandler.


mmm, sorry but chandler is not a good player?! Bryant Reeves would own him, and has a dictionnary of moves comparing to Howard. sorry but there is not good centers.in 90's they were franchise players, in 00's they are completing the starting 5[/QUOTE]

That was my point. Tyson Chandler is very athletic and has superior length to Dwight, yet he's not anywhere near as good proving that just athletic ability won't make you as productive as Dwight.

[nbacardDOTnet]

lol @ DH12 's greatness.

No doubt for DH12 's defense but his offense has been really horrible.

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/1%20Houston%20Rockets/Yao%20Ming/VS%20dwight%20howard/-.gif


http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/1%20Indiana%20Pacers/100106dh12.gif



Even rookie SHAQ can destroy current DH12.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zn8bP-2y_ko


Watch this

OLD SHAQ VS young dh12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQa8Gb-DVFc


from only 2009-10 NBA Season

Dalembert, Hibbert, Old SHAQ, Old Ben, non-prime JO, Old Sheed, Bobcats bunch of C Players could stop DH12

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4bgIt6q_uw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDbWTJcfm1g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOm6ZqkNSMs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HShlDhBOpwM

and I don't think this is record of great center player.

Alonzo Mourning wasn't like this. Rather ZO 's rookie record was over 20-10.

Furthermore, ZO 's partner was LJ and there were Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson, SHAQ etc.


How about DH12 ?

Ming was out and there were no great C Players but DH12 wasn't dominant.


DH12 = foul maker
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/z%20Funny%20NBA%20Photos/Funny%20NBA%20Record/Dwight%20Howard/--2.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIWxNQ6iFm0

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/1%20Boston%20Celtics/VS/Orlando%20Magic/NBA09-10OrlandoMagicvsBostonCelt-3.jpg




http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/1%20Boston%20Celtics/VS/Orlando%20Magic/avi_000003750.jpg

scoreboard - DH12 's 5 PTs lol
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/1%20Boston%20Celtics/VS/Orlando%20Magic/bd1969d4.jpg

[ShaqAttack3234]

lol @ DH12 's greatness.

No doubt for DH12 's defense but his offense has been really horrible.


A horrible offensive player doesn't average 21 ppg on 57-60% shooting back to back seasons and then 20 ppg on 60% shooting for a playoff run to the finals. Why people act like he's all defense is beyond me. He's led his team in scoring 4 or 5 consecutive seasons. He's not Ben Wallace or even Mutombo offensively.

[alexandreben]

lol @ DH12 's greatness.

No doubt for DH12 's defense but his offense has been really horrible.

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/1%20Houston%20Rockets/Yao%20Ming/VS%20dwight%20howard/-.gif


http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/1%20Indiana%20Pacers/100106dh12.gif



Even rookie SHAQ can destroy current DH12.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zn8bP-2y_ko


Watch this

OLD SHAQ VS young dh12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQa8Gb-DVFc


from only 2009-10 NBA Season

Dalembert, Hibbert, Old SHAQ, Old Ben, non-prime JO, Old Sheed, Bobcats bunch of C Players could stop DH12

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4bgIt6q_uw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDbWTJcfm1g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOm6ZqkNSMs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HShlDhBOpwM

and I don't think this is record of great center player.

Alonzo Mourning wasn't like this. Rather ZO 's rookie record was over 20-10.

Furthermore, ZO 's partner was LJ and there were Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson, SHAQ etc.


How about DH12 ?

Ming was out and there were no great C Players but DH12 wasn't dominant.


DH12 = foul maker
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/z%20Funny%20NBA%20Photos/Funny%20NBA%20Record/Dwight%20Howard/--2.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIWxNQ6iFm0

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/1%20Boston%20Celtics/VS/Orlando%20Magic/NBA09-10OrlandoMagicvsBostonCelt-3.jpg




http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/1%20Boston%20Celtics/VS/Orlando%20Magic/avi_000003750.jpg

scoreboard - DH12 's 5 PTs lol
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/1%20Boston%20Celtics/VS/Orlando%20Magic/bd1969d4.jpg
good post that summarized some horrible games by DH, but it doesn't mean he is a horrible offense player, Jermain Oneal blocked Tim Duncan too, it doesnt mean Duncan is horrible offense player...

you can check how much percentage that DH score by dunking, then you will get the idea if he's horrible offensive skill or not, btw , a young Shaq score only about 27%-30% by dunking the ball

[nbacardDOTnet]

A horrible offensive player doesn't average 21 ppg on 57-60% shooting back to back seasons and then 20 ppg on 60% shooting for a playoff run to the finals. Why people act like he's all defense is beyond me. He's led his team in scoring 4 or 5 consecutive seasons. He's not Ben Wallace or even Mutombo offensively.

I have a serious question.

If DH12 is great like that, why DH12 can't score nearly 30 PTs ?

why DH12 can't block around 3.5-4 blk / game ?
(Funnily he got Back 2 Back DPOY but his blk / game wasn't over 3 as Center Player.)

like this
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/Whos%20Who/90s%20Titans/--02.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/Whos%20Who/90s%20Titans/05b.jpg


and why DH12 has had too much foul trouble in really important games ?


I don't deny DH12 is great in this era.


But DH12 's level can't be all time top 15 center players level. Never.

[ShaqAttack3234]

But DH12 's level can't be all time top 15 center players level. Never.

Who are the top 15 centers? Obviously this is in no order....Kareem, Shaq, Wilt, Hakeem, Russell, Moses, Ewing, Robinson, Russell and if you count him, Duncan. I won't even get into Mikan because we can't compare him, his era was so different. Prime healthy Bill Walton in '77 was on a different level than Dwight, but Walton's prime ended when he was injured in the '78 season.

But that would be 10 players on a different level. Like I said, prime Zo was still a bit better IMO, but they're on a similar level, and Dwight kills him on the boards, both produce similarly while Zo did it with a more polished game and both are great defensively, while Zo has an edge there IMO.

But regardless, he's comparable to Mourning as far as overall impact.

Aside from the 9/10 I mentioned, who was at a level clearly above Dwight?

[Toizumi]

I have a serious question.

If DH12 is great like that, why DH12 can't score nearly 30 PTs ?

why DH12 can't block around 3.5-4 blk / game ?
(Funnily he got Back 2 Back DPOY but his blk / game wasn't over 3 as Center Player.)

like this
and why DH12 has had too much foul trouble in really important games ?


I don't deny DH12 is great in this era.

But DH12 's level can't be all time top 15 center players level. Never.

It's a weak era for bigs, but Dwight is clearly the best in the league right now..

why can't he average 3/4 a game? is that a serious question? Dwight has led the league in BPG the past 2 season. yes, he has been arguably the best shotblocker (playing big minutes) in the league for the past 2 years.
He has also led the league in RPG 3 seasons straight. He also shot a league best .612 from the field this year and scored 18.3 a game.

To sumarize:

Best shotblocker in the league
Best rebounder in the league
Best big help defender in the league
He won 2 DPOY'S but IMO he isn't the best post defender when it comes to defending post ups, he is the best team defender of all bigs though.
Most effective scorer in the game going by his FG%

Dwight isn't very clutch . True.
Also he doesn't have a lot of postmoves.. but he has the highest FG% in the league nonetheless. so why hate?
yeah he gets in foul trouble, but that has been an issue for a lot of bigs.
Name me 15 centers better than him alltime... Good luck.


Shaqattack gets some rep.

Edit- You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to ShaqAttack3234 again.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I have a serious question.

If DH12 is great like that, why DH12 can't score nearly 30 PTs ?

Dwight's career high is 45 in the regular season and he's had 40 and 36 point playoff games.

Do you mean 30 points per game? Well define nearly? Lets call 28+ ppg nearly 30. In that case, Robinson and Ewing did it just once each, Olajuwon never did it and Mourning never did it.

[alexandreben]

Aside from the 9/10 I mentioned, who was at a level clearly above Dwight?
a healthy Sabonis is better than DH.

Wilt, Russell, KAJ, Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, Thurmond, Reed, Robinson, Zo, Mutombo, Parish, Sampson, Malone, Cowens, Sabonis, etc..

i just randomly count a few centers that already more than 10 or probably more than 15... DH is done and will never ever made it to top 10 centers in the history:facepalm

[ShaqAttack3234]

a healthy Sabonis is better than DH.

Wilt, Russell, KAJ, Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, Thurmond, Reed, Robinson, Zo, Mutombo, Parish, Sampson, Malone, Cowens, Sabonis, etc..

i just randomly count a few centers that already more than 10 or probably more than 15... DH is done and will never ever made it to top 10 centers in the history:facepalm

Oh my god.......Parish?????! Not even close.

Mutombo??! :hammerhead: And people complain about Dwight's offense? :wtf:

Sampson? :lol

Cowens? Ehhhh, he was an MVP and a champion so I won't argue, but he wasn't that impressive from what I've seen. he wasn't a shot blocker and wasn't he more of a jump shooter offensively? He shot 46% for his career.

Reed? Same as Cowens. i can't argue because he was an MVP and a champion, but look at his game. A jumpshooting center who didn't block shots. reed also shot 47.6% for his career and even with the ridiculous pace, he barely beat Dwight's rebounding numbers.

Nate Thurmond. Well based on his defense vs Jabbar, I'm assuming he was a better post defender. But you complain about Dwight's offense? Thurmond shot 42% for his career.

Sabonis didn't play in the NBA in his prime so he isn't ranked with the top 15 NBA centers, it's impossible to rank him vs Dwight without seeing him in his prime vs NBA competition

[alexandreben]

i left Unseld, Gilmore, Lanier...

[nbacardDOTnet]

Name me 15 centers better than him alltime... Good luck.




no order

Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Lew Alcindor (KAJ)
Nate Thurmond
Artis Gilmore
Bill Walton
Dave Cowens
Moses Malone
Wes Unseld
Hakeem Olajuwon
Patrick Ewing
The Admiral
MT. Mutombo
SHAQ
ZO

considerable - TD (C/F)

[Toizumi]

a healthy Sabonis is better than DH.

Wilt, Russell, KAJ, Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, Thurmond, Reed, Robinson, Zo, Mutombo, Parish, Sampson, Malone, Cowens, Sabonis, etc..

i just randomly count a few centers that already more than 10 or probably more than 15... DH is done and will never ever made it to top 10 centers in the history:facepalm

Prime Howard is better than some guys listed above.

Sampson was better at what?
Scoring? nope.
More efficient? nope
Better defender? nope
Better shotblocker? Nope
what makes Sampson better?

Mutombo was great defensively, but had a very limited offensive game. IMO a greater shotblocker and post up defender than Dwight. Yet, Dwight is a way better scorer and a better rebounder. This isn't that close, with all respect to Dike.

Thurmond
Never seen him play. Doubt that you have either. I read about him in Simmons book and some articles though :oldlol: Sick rebounding stats (but rebounding stats were really high back then). Not an efficient scorer compared to Dwight though and he didn't score considerably more than him (15 PPG for his career, 21.9 PPG career high).


Sabonis
Not getting into this. Prime Sabas didn't play in the NBA. He looked great in the world's though. Why is he the only non NBA player included in discussions like these. I liked him in Portland though (Blazer fan!!).

Cowens.
Awesome hustle guy. Not as good a scorer/defender/shotblocker as Dwight. Guy was 6-9 and played Center in a different era. Tough comparison. But better than Dwight? no. He was a great player (see MVP voting) but skillwise, not as good as Howard.

Parish was awesome and a great team player.. but was he ever on the level that Dwight was last season? His scoring numbers, rebounding numbers, shotblocking.. all not as good as Dwight. Chief has had a better career, but Dwight has already had a better prime.

[ShaqAttack3234]

no order

Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Lew Alcindor (KAJ)
Nate Thurmond
Artis Gilmore
Bill Walton
Dave Cowens
Moses Malone
Wes Unseld
Hakeem Olajuwon
Patrick Ewing
The Admiral
MT. Mutombo
SHAQ
ZO

considerable - TD (C/F)


Unseld? :wtf: Not only was he not a shot blocker, or much of a defender, he wasn't much of a scorer either. Dwight wipes the floor with him offensively and defensively. And yes, i've seen some Wes Unseld games.

Mutombo? What the hell. I love Deke, but he was NOT a franchise player like dwight. This is half the reason I'm a Dwight Howard fan. The hate for him gets ridiculous. So lets see, people hate on a guy for his offense who averages 20-21 ppg back to back seasons on 57-60% shooting, leads the league in FG% at 61% the following year, has a playoff run of 20+ ppg on 60% shooting all the way to the final and, a 40 point closeout game in the conference finals, yet pick a guy who was never a legit franchise player over him, a guy who averaged over 15 ppg once and never scraped 20 ppg?

I'm sorry, but NBA centers who at their peaks were better than Dwight at his peak so far in no order.

1.Kareem
2.Shaq
3.Wilt
4.Hakeem
5.Walton
6.Russell
7.Duncan(if you count him)
8.Ewing
9.Robinson
10.Moses Malone


Debatable
Alonzo Mourning(I have him slightly above Dwight for peaks so far)
Artis Gilmore(I have to research more and watch some games)
Nate Thurmond(need to see some footage)

I can't name 15 NBA centers better than Dwight was in 2009.

[alexandreben]

Oh my god.......Parish?????! Not even close.

Mutombo??! :hammerhead: And people complain about Dwight's offense? :wtf:

Sampson? :lol

Cowens? Ehhhh, he was an MVP and a champion so I won't argue, but he wasn't that impressive from what I've seen. he wasn't a shot blocker and wasn't he more of a jump shooter offensively? He shot 46% for his career.

Reed? Same as Cowens. i can't argue because he was an MVP and a champion, but look at his game. A jumpshooting center who didn't block shots. reed also shot 47.6% for his career and even with the ridiculous pace, he barely beat Dwight's rebounding numbers.

Nate Thurmond. Well based on his defense vs Jabbar, I'm assuming he was a better post defender. But you complain about Dwight's offense? Thurmond shot 42% for his career.

Sabonis didn't play in the NBA in his prime so he isn't ranked with the top 15 NBA centers, it's impossible to rank him vs Dwight without seeing him in his prime vs NBA competition
Robert Parish... not even close??:facepalm

Mutombo is clearly a better shot blocker than DH;

I definitely rank a prime Sampson over DH, no doubt;

Cowens' hook shot is very powerful weapon, not to mention his mental toughness, and he was highly recomended by Russell before Celtics picked him, I definitely rank Cowens as the second generation of Russell, his mentality, fighting spirit... DH's lack of heart and now we can use the phrase: not even close;

anyone says Reed cant block shots clearly dont watch enough of his footage, what's more, are you seriously ranking DH over the greatest NYK center Willis Reed??!!

if DH matchup with Nate Thurmond, the latter will kill DH, i'd bet that Thurmond will block DH over 5 shot blocks per game;

86' Sabonis is clearly better than DH today.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Robert Parish... not even close??:facepalm

No, Parish wasn't even close. He never had the defensive impact, he wasn't the rebounder and no, he wasn't the scorer Dwight is. In other words, he wasn't a franchise player like Dwight is. Parish at no point was at Dwight's level and I've seen a ton of 80's Celtics games.


Mutombo is clearly a better shot blocker than DH;

Yes, and Dwight is probably the better rebounder and a MUCH better scorer. Once again, Mutombo is another guy who was never a legit franchise player.


I definitely rank a prime Sampson over DH, no doubt;

And I have absolutely no clue why.


Cowens' hook shot is very powerful weapon, not to mention his mental toughness, and he was highly recomended by Russell before Celtics picked him, I definitely rank Cowens as the second generation of Russell, his mentality, fighting spirit... DH's lack of heart and now we can use the phrase: not even close;

If Dwight doesn't have heart then why didn't he give up vs Boston. He was down 3-0, but had a 32/16/4 game and a 21/10/5 game to make the series 3-2. They ended up losing, but he still had 28/12 in game 6.

That doesn't sound like a guy with no heart. A guy with no heart would give up down 3-0.


anyone says Reed cant block shots clearly dont watch enough of his footage, what's more, are you seriously ranking DH over the greatest NYK center Willis Reed??!!

The greatest Knick center by far was Patrick Ewing. Reed is very lucky that he got hurt before game 7 because he only scored 4 points, Walt Frazier had 36/19 and Reed was the hero.


if DH matchup with Nate Thurmond, the latter will kill DH, i'd bet that Thurmond will block DH over 5 shot blocks per game;

Thurmond probably would handle Dwight defensively, but what about the better player over the course of the season vs all teams?


86' Sabonis is clearly better than DH today.

We didn't see '86 Sabonis up against NBA teams on a night to night basis so this opinion is irrelevant.

[Calabis]

http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/68492/20100802/howard_continues_to_work_with_olajuwon/

Hope this helps him

[alexandreben]

No, Parish wasn't even close. He never had the defensive impact, he wasn't the rebounder and no, he wasn't the scorer Dwight is. In other words, he wasn't a franchise player like Dwight is. Parish at no point was at Dwight's level and I've seen a ton of 80's Celtics games.



Yes, and Dwight is probably the better rebounder and a MUCH better scorer. Once again, Mutombo is another guy who was never a legit franchise player.



And I have absolutely no clue why.



If Dwight doesn't have heart then why didn't he give up vs Boston. He was down 3-0, but had a 32/16/4 game and a 21/10/5 game to make the series 3-2. They ended up losing, but he still had 28/12 in game 6.

That doesn't sound like a guy with no heart. A guy with no heart would give up down 3-0.



The greatest Knick center by far was Patrick Ewing. Reed is very lucky that he got hurt before game 7 because he only scored 4 points, Walt Frazier had 36/19 and Reed was the hero.



Thurmond probably would handle Dwight defensively, but what about the better player over the course of the season vs all teams?



We didn't see '86 Sabonis up against NBA teams on a night to night basis so this opinion is irrelevant.
Parish is one of the 50 greatest players in NBA history, and "not even close" to DH?!:facepalm btw, i watched tons of 80's games too, live.. a proper question should be like this: what level can DH come to if he played in 80's competition? and what stats can he got if his team mate is Hakeem? etc..

btw, a healthy Yao Ming is better Howard, no doubt.

and again, i said it many time, Reed is the greatest center of NYK, Ewing is the best center of NYK.

and again, DH will never ever make top 10 center, that i'm sure.

[Calabis]

@Shaq Attack

I can't believe you said this?? No defensive impact?? Parrish was a damn good low post defender. Is he on Dwight's level...his on the ball defense is better, shot blocking no. Scoring, Parrish in his prime was on par with Dwight scoring imo, with a way better shot. Howard is a one trick pony, who turns the ball over far to often. Also let's factor in Dwight plays against no centers

First two lines on wiki describing him

He was known for his strong defense and jump shooting

[alexandreben]

@Shaq Attack

I can't believe you said this?? No defensive impact?? Parrish was a damn good low post defender. Is he on Dwight's level...his on the ball defense is better, shot blocking no. Scoring, Parrish in his prime was on par with Dwight scoring imo, with a way better shot. Howard is a one trick pony, who turns the ball over far to often. Also let's factor in Dwight plays against no centers
i guess the love of DH blinds him:oldlol:

the "one trick pony", well, we'll see about that after a few years, if he couldn't come up with someting more in his 30, he's really done...

he still cant got the fundamental even with Ewing's help, let's see if he can learn some low post dancing from Hakeem...

speaking of which, i guess McHale would've kill DH in the low post with his dancing footwork..:hammerhead:

[Calabis]

i guess the love of DH blinds him:oldlol:

the "one trick pony", well, we'll see about that after a few years, if he couldn't come up with someting more in his 30, he's really done...

he still cant got the fundamental even with Ewing's help, let's see if he can learn some low post dancing from Hakeem...

speaking of which, i guess McHale would've kill DH in the low post with his dancing footwork..:hammerhead:

I call him a one trick pony, because he has a lesser version of Shaq's power game. He can't shoot a 10 footer to save his life, his hook is suspect, his offense is severely limited imo. If he can develop a short jumper or add to his arsenal of moves, then I might consider him a great center. I agree Mchale would have his way with him

[alexandreben]

I call him a one trick pony, because he has a lesser version of Shaq's power game. He can't shoot a 10 footer to save his life, his hook is suspect, his offense is severely limited imo. If he can develop a short jumper or add to his arsenal of moves, then I might consider him a great center. I agree Mchale would have his way with him
DH definitely not a complet player, but he's only 25 years old!! let's see what he can come up with in the near future, shall we?

btw, Wilt said the same thing to Shaq back in 93', something like "Shaq is not a complete player but he's 20 years old...":roll:

[Th3ShowMVP]

Mutombo>Yao>Dirk>Dwight

[PHILA]

Not to neglect Bob Lanier as well.


http://i35.tinypic.com/2vlwbuq.jpg

[Winningtime]

Dwight Howard will be much better as soon as he learns to execute some ACTUAL POST Moves. Is he motivated enough or does just want to be a dunker?

[alexandreben]

Not to neglect Bob Lanier as well.
http://i35.tinypic.com/2vlwbuq.jpg
i forgot this HOF center at the beginning, but i add it right after, along with Unseld and Gilmore, ShaqAttack just ignore that... Lanier is the Pistons' all-time leader in scoring average (22.7 ppg) and ranks second in rebounds (8,063) and third in points (15,488). Lanier excelled in an era of outstanding centers such as Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Willis Reed, Dave Cowens and Bill Walton. And whom DH battled with again?:lol

speaking which, we can't neglect another HOF center/forward, Elvin Hayes, who is one of the greatest 50 players in NBA history. In 1968 he was picked as first draft and had the scoring title in his rookie year by scoring 28.4 ppg, he's a combination of Hakeem and Karl Malone, great turn around jumper, not to mention he played 1303 games and missed only 9 games in his entire 16 years career, the true iron man...
http://www.bermansports.com/images/500-dawkins-hayes-2.jpg

[alexandreben]

i forgot to say that Elvin Hayes averaged 3 blk per game in the first year that NBA started to count shot blocking when he was 28 years old, along with 21.4 pts, 18.1 rbs, and that's on 81 games basis... he's a much better shooter than Howard as well, for god's sake, so many players are better than Howard if we start digging...:facepalm

[ShaqAttack3234]

Parish is one of the 50 greatest players in NBA history, and "not even close" to DH?!:facepalm btw, i watched tons of 80's games too, live.. a proper question should be like this: what level can DH come to if he played in 80's competition? and what stats can he got if his team mate is Hakeem? etc..

Lets stop making out the 80's to be some other planet as far as competition. Due to fast pace, defense was often lackadaisical. And to the other poster, I meant Parish never controlled a game defensively like Dwight. Just watch the games, Dwight can dominate games at time, whether it be getting to the foul line, dunking or more often, with his defense and rebounding. Parish was solid and consistent, but never on that level.


btw, a healthy Yao Ming is better Howard, no doubt.

Yao in 2006-2007 when he was healthy was better than Howard ever was, but at this point, you can't simply call that a healthy Yao because Yao has clearly declined since then, even in his last healthy season, the injuries took some toll, he was still very good, but not dominating like Yao was in 06-07.

And yes, Yao in 2006-2007 or even 2007-2008 was clearly playing at a higher level than Parish ever did when he was healthy.


and again, i said it many time, Reed is the greatest center of NYK, Ewing is the best center of NYK.

Now you're splitting hairs.


and again, DH will never ever make top 10 center, that i'm sure.

He's only 24, I won't put a limit on him. I can't see him ever being like Kareem or Shaq, but top 10 is certainly reachable. As good as his final numbers were in 2008-2009, he only played 36 mpg and averaged 21/14/3, that equals 23 ppg, 15.5 rpg and 3.3 bpg. And all he'd have to do is just avoid some of the dumb, unnecessary fouls and don't forget that during Hakeem's first 5 seasons, he went for a lot of fakes and was foul prone as well and never even played a full 37 mpg and his career high prior to '93 was 38.1, barely above Dwight in '08 so Dwight becoming smarter and less foul prone is possible. And if he retains what Dream taught him then he could be the best player in the league soon.

Can't comment on Lanier without some game footage.

[alexandreben]

Lets stop making out the 80's to be some other planet as far as competition. Due to fast pace, defense was often lackadaisical. And to the other poster, I meant Parish never controlled a game defensively like Dwight. Just watch the games, Dwight can dominate games at time, whether it be getting to the foul line, dunking or more often, with his defense and rebounding. Parish was solid and consistent, but never on that level.



Yao in 2006-2007 when he was healthy was better than Howard ever was, but at this point, you can't simply call that a healthy Yao because Yao has clearly declined since then, even in his last healthy season, the injuries took some toll, he was still very good, but not dominating like Yao was in 06-07.

And yes, Yao in 2006-2007 or even 2007-2008 was clearly playing at a higher level than Parish ever did when he was healthy.



Now you're splitting hairs.



He's only 24, I won't put a limit on him. I can't see him ever being like Kareem or Shaq, but top 10 is certainly reachable. As good as his final numbers were in 2008-2009, he only played 36 mpg and averaged 21/14/3, that equals 23 ppg, 15.5 rpg and 3.3 bpg. And all he'd have to do is just avoid some of the dumb, unnecessary fouls and don't forget that during Hakeem's first 5 seasons, he went for a lot of fakes and was foul prone as well and never even played a full 37 mpg and his career high prior to '93 was 38.1, barely above Dwight in '08 so Dwight becoming smarter and less foul prone is possible. And if he retains what Dream taught him then he could be the best player in the league soon.

Can't comment on Lanier without some game footage.
take a look at 80's big men competition: KAJ, Malone, Walton, Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson, Parish, Laimbeer, Eaton, Gilmore, Chocolate...

let's look at the competition in Howard's era: Shaq, Mutombo, Yao, Chandler, Wallace, Karman, Dalembert, Bynum, Oden:facepalm ...

we simply can't say these two groupe of centers are on the same tier level, can we?

[ShaqAttack3234]

take a look at 80's big men competition: KAJ, Malone, Walton, Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson, Parish, Laimbeer, Eaton, Gilmore, Chocolate...

let's look at the competition in Howard's era: Shaq, Mutombo, Yao, Chandler, Wallace, Karman, Dalembert, Bynum, Oden:facepalm ...

we simply can't say these two groupe of centers are on the same tier level, can we?

Compare team defenses now and then in the 80's. And Robinson? His rookie year was the '89-'90 season. I can't believe you included Walton as part of the 80's....he barely played! In one of his 2 relatively healthy seasons in the 80's, he was on Parish's team!

Parish was a very good player, but you're kidding yourself if you think he was ever a franchise player, or at that level. What made Parish's career great was that he had great longevity and he was a solid all-star player on a winning team, but never as the number 1 guy.

We're talking about centers at their peaks who are on another level than Howard at his peak so far and Parish clearly wasn't that good, much less on another player.

[Th3ShowMVP]

Yao in 2006-2007 when he was healthy was better than Howard ever was, but at this point, you can't simply call that a healthy Yao because Yao has clearly declined since then, even in his last healthy season, the injuries took some toll, he was still very good, but not dominating like Yao was in 06-07.

And yes, Yao in 2006-2007 or even 2007-2008 was clearly playing at a higher level than Parish ever did when he was healthy.

you mean dwight? :facepalm

[ShaqAttack3234]

you mean dwight? :facepalm

2006-2007 Yao was playing at a higher level than either have, IMO.

[alexandreben]

Compare team defenses now and then in the 80's. And Robinson? His rookie year was the '89-'90 season. I can't believe you included Walton as part of the 80's....he barely played! In one of his 2 relatively healthy seasons in the 80's, he was on Parish's team!

Parish was a very good player, but you're kidding yourself if you think he was ever a franchise player, or at that level. What made Parish's career great was that he had great longevity and he was a solid all-star player on a winning team, but never as the number 1 guy.

We're talking about centers at their peaks who are on another level than Howard at his peak so far and Parish clearly wasn't that good, much less on another player.
i remember Walton still had a half season averaged 15/10, and i've excluded Cowens, even if you argue to exclude Robinson's rookie seaon 24pts/12rbs in 89'-90', the competition of big men still remains higher level than Dwight Howard's: KAJ, Malone, Ewing, Hakeem, Sampson, Parish, Laimbeer, Eaton, Gilmore, Chocolate, etc. look at Howard's opponent centers, name one future HOF center besides Shaq, please... cant believe you even argue this with "team defense" now and then, the big men competition in Dwight Howard's era is just weak like hell compare with 80's...

and in your opinion, which center that Howard battles with is at the same or similar level as Robert Parish? Bynum? Oden?:facepalm

[ShaqAttack3234]

i remember Walton still had a half season averaged 15/10, and i've excluded Cowens, even if you argue to exclude Robinson's rookie seaon 24pts/12rbs in 89'-90', the competition of big men still remains higher level than Dwight Howard's: KAJ, Malone, Ewing, Hakeem, Sampson, Parish, Laimbeer, Eaton, Gilmore, Chocolate, etc. look at Howard's opponent centers, name one future HOF center besides Shaq, please... cant believe you even argue this with "team defense" now and then, the big men competition in Dwight Howard's era is just weak like hell compare with 80's...

and in your opinion, which center that Howard battles with is at the same or similar level as Robert Parish? Bynum? Oden?:facepalm

There were more good centers, but all one has to do is watch a game and see Dwight's explosiveness and game-changing shot blocking and dominant rebounding and he's the obvious choice over Parish.

Parish had that high-arching jumper and pretty good footwork and he was good at running the floor, but Dwight's quickness and athleticism gets him to the line much more and as a result, there's another advantage. And once again, he still has two 20-21 ppg seasons on 57-60% shooting, Parish's career high is about 20 on 55% shooting and don't give me competition for numbers because I can just bring up pace and team defenses.

[alexandreben]

There were more good centers, but all one has to do is watch a game and see Dwight's explosiveness and game-changing shot blocking and dominant rebounding and he's the obvious choice over Parish.

Parish had that high-arching jumper and pretty good footwork and he was good at running the floor, but Dwight's quickness and athleticism gets him to the line much more and as a result, there's another advantage. And once again, he still has two 20-21 ppg seasons on 57-60% shooting, Parish's career high is about 20 on 55% shooting and don't give me competition for numbers because I can just bring up pace and team defenses.
you've amused my evening quite pleasant by saying "Parish is not even close to Dwight Howard", let's keep it that way as i'll even laugh out loud in the coming sweet dream:roll:

[Dwade305]

:banana:

[PHILA]

Compare team defenses now and then in the 80's. And Robinson? His rookie year was the '89-'90 season. I can't believe you included Walton as part of the 80's....he barely played! In one of his 2 relatively healthy seasons in the 80's, he was on Parish's team!

Parish was a very good player, but you're kidding yourself if you think he was ever a franchise player, or at that level. What made Parish's career great was that he had great longevity and he was a solid all-star player on a winning team, but never as the number 1 guy.

We're talking about centers at their peaks who are on another level than Howard at his peak so far and Parish clearly wasn't that good, much less on another player.

To be fair in '82 a lot of people thought Chief was the best player in the league. Both Larry Bird & Chris Ford said he should have been MVP and he did indeed out perform Bird in the playoffs.

[zORi]

Y'know I actually didn't know DWade305 was RG until this topic......

Anyway Dwight>>Yao

[Dwade305]

Here we are 3 years later and its practically the same Dwight. Where is that big improvement SA3234? Face it your boy is a mediocre, athletic, foul prone, shot blocking center, who in the 90's would have been competing with Kevin Willis for minutes.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Here we are 3 years later and its practically the same Dwight. Where is that big improvement SA3234? Face it your boy is a mediocre, athletic, foul prone, shot blocking center, who in the 90's would have been competing with Kevin Willis for minutes.

Ironically, Dwight improved greatly the season directly after this thread. Put up 23/14, cut down on his fouls and was scoring in the post consistently all year.

He's fallen apart since then and regressed due to all the shit he took for the trade demand as well as the back surgery.

[deja vu]

Anyway Dwight>>Yao
:yaohappy:

Call me when Dwight averages 25 ppg. :lol