Do you agree with this NBA Top 15 All-Time?

[Bladers]

1 MJ(give him edge of Kareem because his impact off court)
2 Kareem
3 Wilt
4 Russell
5 Magic
6 Oscar
7 Bird
8 Shaq
9 Hakeem
10 Duncan
11 West
12 Moses Malone
13 Kobe
14 Baylor
15 Dr J

LMAO... I won't say a word, You be the Judge.
I personally don't agree with it. Its a bit of a mockery. LOl @ Moses,Shaq,Duncan and Hakeem being over Kobe. Especially Moses, that one just makes no sense at all. :facepalm
But i will highlight a few names that are off.

[joyner82]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Bird
5. Magic
6. Russell
7. Hakeem
8. Shaq
9. Duncan
10. Kobe


That's the top 10 and this is how they're broken down

Tier 1: Jordan Kareem & Wilt
Tier 2: Magic Bird Russell
Tier 3: Hakeem
Tier 4: Shaq, Duncan, Kobe

[jlauber]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Bird
5. Magic
6. Russell
7. Hakeem
8. Shaq
9. Duncan
10. Kobe


That's the top 10

Those are the top-10 players on MY list...albeit in a different order...

1. Russell
2. MJ
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Kareem
6. Duncan/Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Olajuwon
10. Bird

[Sarcastic]

1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Magic
4. Russell
5. Alcindor
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Duncan
10. Oscar

[joyner82]

Those are the top-10 players on MY list...albeit in a different order...

1. Russell
2. MJ
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Kareem
6. Duncan/Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Olajuwon
10. Bird

Joke list. Kobe ahead of Bird is just a joke.

[Younggrease]

THE TOP 50 NBA PLAYERS OF ALL TIME (AS OF 2010)
- Bruce Blitz - July 24, 2010 9:30pm CT

Making a top 50 greatest NBA players list isn't easy folks. It's an automatic way to get people upset with you. All I can do is base it off my research and knowledge of the history of the game. I think the biggest problem I've come across are the younger NBA fans who think they know the history, but some really have no clue. So I hope you enjoy this list, and I will update it next summer.

1 Michael Jordan
2 Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3 Wilt Chamberlain
4 Magic Johnson
5 Larry Bird
6 Bill Russell
7 Hakem Olajuwon
8 Oscar Robertson
9 Shaquille O'Neal
10 Tim Duncan
11 Karl Malone
12 Moses Malone
13 Jerry West
14 Bob Pettit
15 Charles Barkley
16 David Robinson
17 Kobe Bryant
18 Kevin Garnett
19 LeBron James
20 George Mikan
21 Dr J
22 Bob Cousy
23 Elgin Baylor
24 John Havlicek
25 John Stockton
26 Dwyane Wade
27 Clyde Drexler
28 Rick Barry
29 Isiah Thomas
30 Dirk Nowitzki
31 Gary Payton
32 Patrick Ewing
33 Bob McAdoo
34 Walt Frazier
35 Neil Johnston
36 George Gervin
37 Elvin Hayes
38 Scottie Pippen
39 Dominique Wilkins
40 Dolph Schayes
41 Jerry Lucas
42 Steve Nash
43 Allen Iverson
44 Jason Kidd
45 Willis Reed
46 Tiny Archibald
47 Dave Cowens
48 Paul Arizin
49 Walt Bellamy
50 Pistol Pete

this?

[jlauber]

Joke list. Kobe ahead of Bird is just a joke.

Obviously, there is very little chance that everyone on this Forum is going to agree with either of us. These are just opinions...and your's is as good as mine. I have given my Bird-Kobe argument here before, so I won't waste my time rehashing them. If you believe Bird to be better than Kobe, I won't argue.

[jlauber]

this?

Here again, we could argue a Top-50 til the cows come home. IMHO, though, Russell at #6 is just plain wrong.

[Bladers]

this?

LMAO at Lebron being 19 and Kobe at 17, KM at 11 and West at 13....
This is failure at its best.
:facepalm

[MastahX]

Stockton & Malone are in the top 10

[Andrei89]

LMAO... I won't say a word, You be the Judge.
I personally don't agree with it. Its a bit of a mockery. LOl @ Moses,Shaq,Duncan and Hakeem being over Kobe. Especially Moses, that one just makes no sense at all. :facepalm
But i will highlight a few names that are off.

lol insecure kid:lol

u mad shaq > kobe?

Why don't you posts shaq's stats from the beginning of his career till 32 years old and post Kobe's till 32 years old

little b1tch

And don't post kobe's 5 "'rings"of whome 3 belong to shaq and 1 to pau gasol

[MasterDurant24]

1. Kareem
2. Jordan
3. Wilt
4. Russell
5. Bird
6. Magic
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Hakeem
10. Kobe
11. Oscar Robertson
12. Moses Malone
13. Jerry West
14. Elgin Baylor
15. Julius Erving

Jordan over Wilt because of the rings, same thing for Russell over Bird and Magic.

[necya]

that's my top 20 players of basketball of all time
MJ
Bird
Magic
Abdul Jabbar
Chamberlain
Olajuwon, K.Malone, Robertson, Barkley, West, Duncan, Russell, O'neal, M.Malone, Robinson, Erving, Pippen, Havlicek, Stockton, Pettit

[Wukillabeez78]

Stockton & Malone are in the top 10

Stockton and Malone were great players who played together for many years and could not ever win a championship. How many other top 50 players played together for almost 20 years and were ringless? Both have great numbers but many overrate them just because each played for a long time. Longevity is good but it's not the most important factor when rating the greatness of a player.

Isiah Thomas was a better point guard than John Stockton period (Stockton would tell you this himself and the respect he had for Isiah was never more apparent than at Stockton's HOF induction when he asked Isiah to present him and spoke about the influence and help Thomas provided to him behind the scenes). Isiah won two titles back to back as the leader of his team (sacrificing some of his individual brilliance to do so). Isiah beat many of the greats when they were in their physical primes (Magic, Bird, Jordan, etc...). Stockton was very good but two of his biggest flaws were his inability to take over the game if his team needed it offensively and creating his own shot. Utah might have been able to win a title had Stockton been able to take over games and put additional pressure on the other team when Malone was having a bad night (which happened frequently in the playoffs).

Additionally, I'd rate several power forwards ahead of Malone (Barkley, Duncan and Garnett). Why do people act like Malone is great enough to be mentioned as one of the best ever? I think many of you younger guys rate him high simply because you see the impressive career totals he was able to accumulate due to playing for such a long time. The most impressive thing about Malone was his durability, he was able to stay relatively healthy for the bulk of his career. Other than that most people who watched him play in the 80s and 90s (like myself) wouldn't rate him that high. He is no better than players like Dominique Wilkins, Adrian Dantley, etc... etc... He could score but wasn't that impressive defensively and chocked under pressure (especially at the free throw line). His court awareness was below average (Jordan took advantage of this flaw in a finals game by coming over and stripping him of the ball).

Stockton and Malone were both great players but each would be rated in the 20-25 range on my list.

[the_chosen_1]

I may be the minority, but I watched most of these players from the 80's up ( I am 30) and Magic is not top ten. he was never the best player on his team.

[MaxFly]

I may be the minority, but I watched most of these players from the 80's up ( I am 30) and Magic is not top ten. he was never the best player on his team.

If we polled Massachusetts, Maine, New Hampshire, Vemont, Rhode Island, and Connecticut, about 95% of respondents would agree that Magic is top 10... And this is New England...

Yes, you're in the minority... Heck, you'd be in the minority even if your were in the heart of South Boston or Charlestown... SMH...

[Calabis]

LMAO... I won't say a word, You be the Judge.
I personally don't agree with it. Its a bit of a mockery. LOl @ Moses,Shaq,Duncan and Hakeem being over Kobe. Especially Moses, that one just makes no sense at all. :facepalm
But i will highlight a few names that are off.

Still waiting for your list troll?

[Wukillabeez78]

I may be the minority, but I watched most of these players from the 80's up ( I am 30) and Magic is not top ten. he was never the best player on his team.

I watched all of these players during the same time period and Magic is definitely top 10. Everything revolved around him and he controlled the flow of the games. He made everyone around him better. How many times did Kareem win before Magic arrived? Only once and that title was won playing with Oscar Robertson. Kareem was able to win when he was old and past his physical prime because of Magic's presence and leadership. Magic is > than Kareem. Magic made stars out of other good players like James Worthy, Byron Scott, etc... He would deliver these guys the ball perfectly so they could score. Magic's only flaws were not being a great individual defender and lack of consistence range on this jumpshot. He's still top 10 for sure though because his talent for controlling games (as a point guard) and his ability to make his teammates better are virtually unparalled.

[FCN]

Kobe is NOT top ten all-time.

[jlauber]

I may be the minority, but I watched most of these players from the 80's up ( I am 30) and Magic is not top ten. he was never the best player on his team.

Let's see here...Magic and Kareem joined forces in the 1979-80 season. By their THIRD season, Magic was garnering more MVP votes, and he would continue to do so until Kareem retired (and Magic even won another MVP AFTER Kareem retired BTW.) So, that is EIGHT seasons, out of TEN, in which most everyone ranked Magic AHEAD of Kareem.

BTW, what was LA's record BEFORE Magic? I'll refresh your memory...it was 47-35 (and the year before that it was 45-37.) He not only immediately led the Lakers to a 60-22 record, he won the Finals MVP, with a clinching game six performance (sans Kareem BTW), that has widely been regarded as one of the greatest performances in Finals HISTORY. During Magic's 12 years, the Lakers AVERAGED 59 wins per SEASON. They went to NINE Finals, and won FIVE titles.

And, once again, BTW, the year after Kareem retired (in a series in which the Lakers were swept in the Finals, mainly due to Magic's ABSENCE), LA IMPROVED from a 57-25 record to 63-19. And, a year later Magic carried that team to ANOTHER Finals.

Furthermore, AFTER Magic retired, the Lakers dropped back to about what they were BEFORE his rookie year, at 43-39.

So, it that is being over-rated...you are completely right.

[Calabis]

LMAO... I won't say a word, You be the Judge.
I personally don't agree with it. Its a bit of a mockery. LOl @ Moses,Shaq,Duncan and Hakeem being over Kobe. Especially Moses, that one just makes no sense at all. :facepalm
But i will highlight a few names that are off.

LMAO quit acting like a guru, go find a list on the internet and post it, because I'm sure a moron like yourself would post a list like this,

Kobe
Kareem
Wilt
Jordan
Magic

also thanks for leaving this out when I posted it at you

I don't even know why I respond to you, but here you go, I'm sure by the end of his career I will have Kobe in my top 10, but his career is not finished as of yet. His NBA finals performances is why he is not in my top 10 yet


you can laugh at Oscar all you want, fact is his career scoring avg same as your hero's, yet he did it at a more consistent basis, his assists...enough said. His impact on the game far greater than Kobe's, his win shares greater than Kobe's and Russells, Oscar was the shit, he is far to underrated

[Calabis]

Kobe is NOT top ten all-time.

Thank you :applause:

[Disaprine]

this?
:roll:

lebron at 19. :roll:

[OldSchoolBBall]

LMAO... I won't say a word, You be the Judge.
I personally don't agree with it. Its a bit of a mockery. LOl @ Moses,Shaq,Duncan and Hakeem being over Kobe. Especially Moses, that one just makes no sense at all. :facepalm
But i will highlight a few names that are off.

lol @ thinking that Kobe is over Shaq and Duncan. :oldlol:

[Bladers]

LMAO quit acting like a guru, go find a list on the internet and post it, because I'm sure a moron like yourself would post a list like this,

Kobe
Kareem
Wilt
Jordan
Magic

also thanks for leaving this out when I posted it at you

I don't even know why I respond to you, but here you go, I'm sure by the end of his career I will have Kobe in my top 10, but his career is not finished as of yet. His NBA finals performances is why he is not in my top 10 yet


you can laugh at Oscar all you want, fact is his career scoring avg same as your hero's, yet he did it at a more consistent basis, his assists...enough said. His impact on the game far greater than Kobe's, his win shares greater than Kobe's and Russells, Oscar was the shit, he is far to underrated

Sorry i was away from the computer because i have a life, job, family and girlfriend. :(

Anyways, Your right. Kobe is not top ten of all time. He is top 17 according to bruce and Lebron is top 19. Now you happy?

Here is my list. Top 10 All-Time:

1. MJ
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Russel
5. Magic
6. Hakeem
7. Bird
8. Kobe
9. Shaq
10. Duncan

[EricForman]

LMAO... I won't say a word, You be the Judge.
I personally don't agree with it. Its a bit of a mockery. LOl @ Moses,Shaq,Duncan and Hakeem being over Kobe. Especially Moses, that one just makes no sense at all. :facepalm
But i will highlight a few names that are off.

LOL at you thinking Duncan over Kobe is ridiculous. It can go both ways and can be argued both ways.

[Jacks3]

lol @ people continuing to put Bird ahead of Shaq and Duncan.

[Bladers]

lol @ people continuing to put Bird ahead of Shaq and Duncan.

Tell me why not?

[TheLogo]

To have Bird ahead of Kobe is comical. Comedy gold.

I have Kobe ahead of Bird and if Bird is ranked so high than Kobe is easily cracks the top 4.

Kobe is Tier 1.

[TheLogo]

Sorry i was away from the computer because i have a life, job, family and girlfriend. :(

Anyways, Your right. Kobe is not top ten of all time. He is top 17 according to bruce and Lebron is top 19. Now you happy?

Here is my list. Top 10 All-Time:

1. MJ
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Russel
5. Magic
6. Hakeem
7. Bird
8. Kobe
9. Shaq
10. Duncan

As much as I love Hakeem, it's a joke for him to crack the top 10.

[Bladers]

To have Bird ahead of Kobe is comical. Comedy gold.

I have Kobe ahead of Bird and if Bird is ranked so high than Kobe is easily cracks the top 4.

Kobe is Tier 1.

Don't just make statements like that.
Tell us reasons why...

[jlauber]

Sorry i was away from the computer because i have a life, job, family and girlfriend. :(

Anyways, Your right. Kobe is not top ten of all time. He is top 17 according to bruce and Lebron is top 19. Now you happy?

Here is my list. Top 10 All-Time:

1. MJ
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Russel
5. Magic
6. Hakeem
7. Bird
8. Kobe
9. Shaq
10. Duncan

Not quite in my order, but looks very good to me.

[Jacks3]

Tell me why not?

Duncan has..

More team success as #1 option
Similar peak
Greater longevity
More accolades/accomplishments
Was considerably better defensively.
Arguably better playoff performer


Shaq has...
A greater peak
Greater longevity
More accolades/accomplishments
More team success as the #1 option.
Better playoff performer

[SEEBASS1234]

Sorry i was away from the computer because i have a life, job, family and girlfriend. :(

http://i31.tinypic.com/ioopd5.jpg

[jlauber]

LOL at you thinking Duncan over Kobe is ridiculous. It can go both ways and can be argued both ways.

:applause:

Needless to say, they were BOTH great.

[guy]

lol @ thinking that Kobe is over Shaq and Duncan. :oldlol:

The funny thing is if it weren't for Shaq, the argument for Kobe over Shaq would be even weaker.

[TheLogo]

My true list.....


1. Kareem

2. MJ

3. Magic

4. Wilt

5. Kobe

6. Bird

7. Russel

8. Duncan

9. Shaquille

10. Hakeem

[TheLogo]

The funny thing is if it weren't for Shaq, the argument for Kobe over Shaq would be even weaker.

Shaq had the luxury of playing with the best shooting guard ever, second or equal to Jordan.

How many players get to do that?

[Lebron23]

You are too sensitive.

Get out of your glass house.

Prime Larry Bird was a better playoffs performer than Kobe Bryant.

[TheLogo]

Prime Larry Bird was a better playoffs performer than Kobe Bryant.

If I am not mistaken Kobe has a better PER than Bird.

I hate to use PER too.

[OldSchoolBBall]

the best shooting guard ever, second or equal to Jordan.


What a fukcing tool this guy is. :oldlol:

[MasterDurant24]

Shaq had the luxury of playing with the best shooting guard ever, second or equal to Jordan.

How many players get to do that?
Kobe had the luxury of playing with possibly the most physically dominant player in history. And Kobe over Bird and Shaq, Magic over Wilt, Duncan over Shaq? Either championships are taken too much into account or just people are just idiotic.

[MasterDurant24]

If I am not mistaken Kobe has a better PER than Bird.

I hate to use PER too.
PER...got to be freakin kidding me...

[TheLogo]

Kobe had the luxury of playing with possibly the most physically dominant player in history.


Wilt Chamberlain says hi.

Kareem says hi.

Russel says hi.


Kobe played with one of the many great centers in histroy. Shaq played with the best SG in history, equal or second to MJ.

[guy]

Shaq had the luxury of playing with the best shooting guard ever, second or equal to Jordan.

How many players get to do that?

Just because he had the SECOND best sg ever, doesn't mean that was the only way he could've won. Prime Shaq was easily the easiest player to build around during that time, and one of the easiest of all-time. Shaq would've won titles eventually no matter what. Switch Kobe with T-Mac, Vince, AI, Pierce, Ray, and maybe some others, and they still win 2-3.

[TheLogo]

Just because he had the SECOND best sg ever, doesn't mean that was the only way he could've won. Prime Shaq was easily the easiest player to build around during that time, and one of the easiest of all-time. Shaq would've won titles eventually no matter what. Switch Kobe with T-Mac, Vince, AI, Pierce, Ray, and maybe some others, and they still win 2-3.

speculate much?

I will play too....put a decent center with Kobe and they still 3peat. Heck, look what Kobe is doing right now with a decent center.

Also...Kobe wins 8 rings with Pippen because he hates baseball.

See how stupid you sound.

[MasterDurant24]

Wilt Chamberlain says hi.

Kareem says hi.

Russel says hi.
Shaq is 7'1, 325 pounds, athletic, and has been the strongest player in the NBA for years. There's a reason he has a .581% field goal percentage. Only Wilt can contest him for the most physically dominant player of all time. Kareem and Wilt are more overall dominant than him, but they're not as physically imposing.

[MasterDurant24]

speculate much?

I will play too....put a decent center with Kobe and they still 3peat. Heck, look what Kobe is doing right now with a decent center.

Also...Kobe wins 8 rings with Pippen because he hates baseball.

See how stupid you sound.
Read your post again. And see how stupid you sound.

[Nastradamus]

You simply can't put Russell over Wilt the way he always beat him. Numbers or not

[TheLogo]

Shaq is 7'1, 325 pounds, athletic, and has been the strongest player in the NBA for years. There's a reason he has a .581% field goal percentage. Only Wilt can contest him for the most physically dominant player of all time. Kareem and Wilt are more overall dominant than him, but they're not as physically imposing.

you mean fat.

I find it funny that people think Lakers 3peat Shaq was the same Shaq during the Orlando days.

[tpols]

Just because he had the SECOND best sg ever, doesn't mean that was the only way he could've won. Prime Shaq was easily the easiest player to build around during that time, and one of the easiest of all-time. Shaq would've won titles eventually no matter what. Switch Kobe with T-Mac, Vince, AI, Pierce, Ray, and maybe some others, and they still win 2-3.
This is true.

Shaq had more impact when he was on the floor than kobe.

But all those guys you named wouldn't have been able to create a dynasty with pau gasol.

[TheLogo]

Shaq has proven to be a Robin.

He goes from team to team through out his career trying to chase rings.

There is no denying this.

[Jacks3]

Give Kobe Gasol/Duncan/Garnett/Webber/Dirk/Bosh/ etc and he's winning multiple rings. I can play too.

[necya]

speculate much?

I will play too....put a decent center with Kobe and they still 3peat. Heck, look what Kobe is doing right now with a decent center.

Also...Kobe wins 8 rings with Pippen because he hates baseball.

See how stupid you sound.

i don't know what's your most ridiculous comment, the kobe over Bird, or the kobe equals MJ or the 8 rings with Pippen...
but you really make it strong when you take drugs.
even if i would like to say shit, i could not match yours. if there was a league for the morons, would you be their logo? (it's a serious question buddy)

[MasterDurant24]

you mean fat.

I find it funny that people think Lakers 3peat Shaq was the same Shaq during the Orlando days.
Nobody said he was. Let's add ignorance to your list of traits.

[TheLogo]

i don't know what's your most ridiculous comment, the kobe over Bird, or the kobe equals MJ or the 8 rings with Pippen...
but you really make it strong when you take drugs.
even if i would like to say shit, i could not match yours. if there was a league for the morons, would you be their logo? (it's a serious question buddy)

You have to honor of wearing the stupid hat today.

Bird over Kobe?

:facepalm

[MasterDurant24]

Give Kobe Gasol/Duncan/Garnett/Webber/Dirk/Bosh/ etc and he's winning multiple rings. I can play too.
Give Shaq Allen/Pierce/LeBron/Iverson/Tony Parker/Jamal Mashburn/or Dwyane Wade while Shaq was with the Lakers and they got some rings too. Especially against the Sixers/Nets/Pacers. But it really depends on their supporting cast.

[Tez62]

jlauber, what is your top 10 GOAT list? The guy claiming Magic wasn't top 10 is on drugs.

[MasterDurant24]

You have to honor of wearing the stupid hat today.

Bird over Kobe?

:facepalm
That's what most people on this board believe. So I guess we're going to have a stupid hat parade today. :djparty

[jlauber]

These "Top" lists are guaranteed to have at least three things...

1. MJ will almost always be ranked #1.
2. Russell will almost always be ranked way to low.
3. Name-calling arguments involving all the other players.

[MasterDurant24]

These "Top" lists are guaranteed to have at least three thing...

1. MJ will almost always be ranked #1.
2. Russell will almost always be ranked way to low.
3. Name-calling arguments involving all the other players.
Yes, and I hate it.

I seriously don't like MJ being over Kareem.

Who the hell would put a man with more rings than he could put on his fingers, 20,000 plus rebounds, the anchor of the leauge's most dominant team, and possibly the best defense ever down at 7/8?

[MasterDurant24]

i've been saying this all along about ISH members.
Dude I have never seen you post any good information backing your opinions and you seem to have some kind of worship over Kobe. Even Bladers criticized you.

[jlauber]

jlauber, what is your top 10 GOAT list? The guy claiming Magic wasn't top 10 is on drugs.

Well, I personally have Magic at #3, behind Russell and MJ.

BUT, I know that we ALL have our opinions. IMHO, as long as we agree on the majority of the players on these lists, that is about all we can ask.

[KenneBell]

I don't see how people can put Kobe below 10 other than just being a hater. Putting him around 9-10 is perfectly reasonable. Putting him at spots like 13 and 17 isn't.

[jlauber]

Yes, and I hate it.

I seriously don't like MJ being over Kareem.

Who the hell would put a man with more rings than he could put on his fingers, 20,000 plus rebounds, the anchor of the leauge's most dominant team, and possibly the best defense ever down at 7/8?

Kareem definitely has as good as argument as anyone. Six rings. Six MVPs. Career records.

As for Russell...all he ever did was win. At every level...college, olympics, and the NBA. He anchored teams that won 27 of 29 playoff series. In one of those losses, he played injured. In the other, he was a first-year player-coach. If the ultimate goal in the game is to win...well, no one did it better.

[TheLogo]

I don't see how people can put Kobe below 10 other than just being a hater. Putting him around 9-10 is perfectly reasonable. Putting him at spots like 13 and 17 isn't.

It's the hat they are wearing that says STUPID.

[PowerGlove]

I don't see how people can put Kobe below 10 other than just being a hater. Putting him around 9-10 is perfectly reasonable. Putting him at spots like 13 and 17 isn't.


Kobe-75 all-time

Manu-6 all-time

/robertmanutrollidontrememberwhathisusernamewas

[playtetris]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Bird
5. Magic
6. Russell
7. Hakeem
8. Shaq
9. Duncan
10. Kobe


That's the top 10 and this is how they're broken down

Tier 1: Jordan Kareem & Wilt
Tier 2: Magic Bird Russell
Tier 3: Hakeem
Tier 4: Shaq, Duncan, Kobe

swap shaq for hakeem and that's pretty much my list

[branslowski]

First of all...Kobe is not no where near Num 1...He's not even top 5 yet in my opinion...You have to be a complete troll to rank him ahead of Jordan.

Second...You also have to be a complete dipsh!t hater to not have Kobe in your top 10...The facts prove he's there...Stop trolling.

Third..Its not outlandish to have Kobe ranked ahead of Bird...If you look at the FACTS, Kobe is clearly above Bird...I can even look at them as pure skilled BBall players and still have Kobe as the Better player...All IMO, but when we leave the opinions and use facts, Kobe is better...Period.


Kobe haters...I have no beef against you, really I dont...But stop this nonsense...It's cool if you Rank Bird ahead of Kobe, but dont act like its trolling if someone say's opposite of that...While also having the Actual Facts to fit their argument.

This Board is...:facepalm

[guy]

speculate much?

I will play too....put a decent center with Kobe and they still 3peat. Heck, look what Kobe is doing right now with a decent center.

Also...Kobe wins 8 rings with Pippen because he hates baseball.

See how stupid you sound.

Decent center? Bynum is one of the best centers in the league when healthy, and when he's not healthy, Gasol plays center and when you consider that, he's easily the 2nd best center in the league behind Dwight Howard. LOL @ decent center.

[PowerGlove]

First of all...Kobe is not no where near Num 1...He's not even top 5 yet in my opinion...You have to be a complete troll to rank him ahead of Jordan.

Second...You also have to be a complete dipsh!t hater to not have Kobe in your top 10...The facts prove he's there...Stop trolling.

Third..Its not outlandish to have Kobe ranked ahead of Bird...If you look at the FACTS, Kobe is clearly above Bird...I can even look at them as pure skilled BBall players and still have Kobe as the Better player...All IMO, but when we leave the opinions and use facts, Kobe is better...Period.


Kobe haters...I have no beef against you, really I dont...But stop this nonsense...It's cool if you Rank Bird ahead of Kobe, but dont act like its trolling if someone say's opposite of that...While also having the Actual Facts to fit their argument.

This Board is...:facepalm

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[branslowski]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Nice smiley...Prove me wrong.

[MasterDurant24]

First of all...Kobe is not no where near Num 1...He's not even top 5 yet in my opinion...You have to be a complete troll to rank him ahead of Jordan.

Second...You also have to be a complete dipsh!t hater to not have Kobe in your top 10...The facts prove he's there...Stop trolling.

Third..Its not outlandish to have Kobe ranked ahead of Bird...If you look at the FACTS, Kobe is clearly above Bird...I can even look at them as pure skilled BBall players and still have Kobe as the Better player...All IMO, but when we leave the opinions and use facts, Kobe is better...Period.


Kobe haters...I have no beef against you, really I dont...But stop this nonsense...It's cool if you Rank Bird ahead of Kobe, but dont act like its trolling if someone say's opposite of that...While also having the Actual Facts to fit their argument.

This Board is...:facepalm
It's trolling if somebody say Kobe is obviously better than Bird. And it's trolling if you don't back it up. Shoot, Kobe is my 2nd favorite player. But this board seriously overrates him. So...:confusedshrug:

[barbaroi]

1) Kareem
2) Jordan
3) Russell
4) Magic
5) Bird
6) Wilt
7) Duncan
8) Kobe
9) Hakeem
10) Shaq

[PowerGlove]

Nice smiley...Prove me wrong.

Kobe is "clearly" ahead of Bird?

On what basis?

[guy]

Give Kobe Gasol/Duncan/Garnett/Webber/Dirk/Bosh/ etc and he's winning multiple rings. I can play too.

No he's not. Maybe with Duncan or KG where he still wouldn't be considered the best player on his team, and definitely not if Shaq is playing with a comparable supporting cast. I'm talking earlier in his career when he wasn't as good as he is today, and Shaq was in the middle of one of the most dominant stretches in NBA history. If he wasn't playing on the Lakers, he's probably another one of those wing players I mentioned who were stuck on teams they had to carry every night.

Bottom line is its a joke to think Kobe would be considered as great as he is today if he didn't play with Shaq. And its also a joke to think that Shaq and Kobe equally benefitted from playing with each other when it comes to their legacies. I'm not saying Kobe isn't great regardless, in fact there's a good chance he'd still be a top 10 player of all-time. But half the great sh*t said about him wouldn't be said.

[Jacks3]

Give Shaq Allen/Pierce/LeBron/Iverson/Tony Parker/Jamal Mashburn/or Dwyane Wade while Shaq was with the Lakers and they got some rings too. Especially against the Sixers/Nets/Pacers. But it really depends on their supporting cast.
Give Kobe Duncan/Garnett/Webber/Dirk/Brand/Bosh/Amare/Howard and they'll winning rings too. :confusedshrug:

[PowerGlove]

Give Kobe Duncan/Garnett/Webber/Dirk/Brand/Bosh/Amare/Howard and they'll winning rings too. :confusedshrug:

LOL @ Dirk,Amare and Howard.

That doesnt even make sense.

Dirk was just getting into all-star form then and Amare joined the league in 2002. Dwight joined in 04. How would kobe be getting rings with them during shaq's prime?

[Jacks3]

Actually, Kobe would have a greater legacy without Shaq. His numbers would better. He would have even more accolades including more scoring titles. You wouldn't have these idiots belittling his play from 00-04 by saying shit like " oh he had Shaq". Oh, and there's little doubt the Lakers would put a team that contender around him, so 1-2 rings easily. He'd still be a top 10 player all-time regardless. Same with Shaq. :pimp:

[branslowski]

Kobe is "clearly" ahead of Bird?

On what basis?

You know what...I really shouldn't have used "clearly"...That means there isn't a debate...I missed the ball on that one...I really didn't mean it like that because in that same paragraph, I mention that there's nothing wrong with having Bird ahead of Kobe...

But, I do think Kobe is better...And the Facts show me this...

Kobe avg More PPG
Kobe More Total Points All-Time
Kobe avg more Playoff PPG
Kobe more Total Playoff Points

Kobe more All Star App
Kobe more All Star MVP
Kobe More All-NBA Team (1st Teams too)
Kobe more All-Defensive Teams (1st too)

Kobe More Titles
Both have 2 Finals MVP's

Kobe more Dominant Scorer...Way more 50pt games, Way more 60pt games

Kobe has way More Game-Winners...Bird has about 12-14, while Kobe has 28..(only second to Jordan).




Again...You can do the same for Bird...Im sure Bird is the Better Passer, Better Rebounder, Better FG%...More Reg season MVP's aswell...

Which shows the Toe to toe facts/case these guy's have against eachother...But again, to those who hate Kobe, dont act like it's comical to compare the two..It's blatantly retarded.

And Im me...Im not the No brain having Trolls who say's "Kobe>>Jordan because 81>>69"...I would run circles around those f*cks....I compress my Power level like Goku..:lol ...I would tear this forum alive.

[Jacks3]

LOL @ Dirk,Amare and Howard.

That doesnt even make sense.
So Kobe can two straight rings with Gasol, but can't with Howard or Dirk, who both easily better than Gasol. :oldlol: And Amare is on the same level. Obviously, I was talking about 01-10 Kobe.

[MasterDurant24]

Actually, Kobe would have a greater legacy without Shaq. His numbers would better. He would have even more accolades including more scoring titles. You wouldn't have these idiots belittling his play from 00-04 by saying shit like " oh he had Shaq". Oh, and there's little doubt the Lakers would put a team that contender around him, so 1-2 rings easily. He'd still be a top 10 player all-time regardless. Same with Shaq. :pimp:
You can't just say there's little doubt that the Lakers would put a team around him. You don't know that. And what about whatever team Shaq is on? What makes you think Kobe is going to win any rings?

[Jacks3]

What makes you think Shaq is guaranteed to get rings? Nobody knows for sure. Obviously, we're talking hypothetical situations, but I think there's a very good chance Kobe wins rings, especially considering he's been to three straight Finals and has won two rings without Shaq.

[PowerGlove]

So Kobe can two straight rings with Gasol, but can't with Howard or Dirk, who both easily better than Gasol. :oldlol: And Amare is on the same level. Obviously, I was talking about 01-10 Kobe.

Wait what? AMARE and HOWARD was not in the league in 01. Amare joined in 02.

The guy you quoted, was clearly NOT talking about 01-10 but rather 99-03.

How are you going to change the time frame?

[branslowski]

Bottom line is its a joke to think Kobe would be considered as great as he is today if he didn't play with Shaq. And its also a joke to think that Shaq and Kobe equally benefitted from playing with each other when it comes to their legacies. I'm not saying Kobe isn't great regardless, in fact there's a good chance he'd still be a top 10 player of all-time. But half the great sh*t said about him wouldn't be said.

:facepalm

Dude, are you a Lakers fan? Did you watch every game, playoff exc of the Lakers during our Championship runs?..I'll also take your "Kobe wouldn't be considered great if he didn't play with Shaq" and run it 2 ways...

1. In the way of All-Time rankings...Your right, he wouldn't be as high without the 5 titles 2 finals MVPS, he would be a notch lower with the 2 titles only...But Shaq needed Kobe..A Wing Player who could score and defend well, who could also take over in the clutch when Shaq sometimes couldn't...They both needed eachother...Every Laker Fan knows this.

2. Kobe got more "He's he better than Jordan?" Pub after Shaq left...It was during the time he was outscoring teams thru 3 quarters...It was during the time he was avg 40ppg in months...While playing with the great Kwame Brown...So, if we wanna say Kwame made him better, I cant really argue with you.

Im about to wake up on this forum again..

[New York Knicks]

Kobe fans are LOL.

[Jacks3]

Wait what? AMARE and HOWARD was not in the league in 01. Amare joined in 02.

The guy you quoted, was clearly NOT talking about 01-10 but rather 99-03.

How are you going to change the time frame?
Okay. Even 00-02 Kobe, who was a top 5 player in the game, would have rings with Duncan/Garnett/Webber/Dirk/Brand etc. I can play too.

[Jacks3]

Kobe haters are pathetic.

[PowerGlove]

Okay. Even 00-02 Kobe, who was a top 5 player in the game, would have rings with Duncan/Garnett/Webber/Dirk/Brand etc. I can play too.
Brand?:oldlol:

Come on.

The caveat is, even if he did win a title with Garnett/Duncan, he still wouldn't be the best player on his team. Something that instrumental here on ISH.

[Horatio33]

Kobe has way More Game-Winners...Bird has about 12-14, while Kobe has 28..(only second to Jordan).

well here is ten. and there are plenty more. so stop pulling numbers out of your arse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HS_UJOEpROk

[branslowski]

You know what...I really shouldn't have used "clearly"...That means there isn't a debate...I missed the ball on that one...I really didn't mean it like that because in that same paragraph, I mention that there's nothing wrong with having Bird ahead of Kobe...

But, I do think Kobe is better...And the Facts show me this...

Kobe avg More PPG
Kobe More Total Points All-Time
Kobe avg more Playoff PPG
Kobe more Total Playoff Points

Kobe more All Star App
Kobe more All Star MVP
Kobe More All-NBA Team (1st Teams too)
Kobe more All-Defensive Teams (1st too)

Kobe More Titles
Both have 2 Finals MVP's

Kobe more Dominant Scorer...Way more 50pt games, Way more 60pt games

Kobe has way More Game-Winners...Bird has about 12-14, while Kobe has 28..(only second to Jordan).




Again...You can do the same for Bird...Im sure Bird is the Better Passer, Better Rebounder, Better FG%...More Reg season MVP's aswell...

Which shows the Toe to toe facts/case these guy's have against eachother...But again, to those who hate Kobe, dont act like it's comical to compare the two..It's blatantly retarded.

And Im me...Im not the No brain having Trolls who say's "Kobe>>Jordan because 81>>69"...I would run circles around those f*cks....I compress my Power level like Goku..:lol ...I would tear this forum alive.

Once the facts are shown and the ownage is thrown...They run...

[branslowski]

well here is ten. and there are plenty more. so stop pulling numbers out of your arse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HS_UJOEpROk

Those are all more than likely every single one he had....But i'll leave it to you to give me atleast 18 more off the top of your head....That way, he can TIE Kobe.

[Jacks3]

Brand?:oldlol:

Come on.

The caveat is, even if he did win a title with Garnett/Duncan, he still wouldn't be the best player on his team. Something that instrumental here on ISH.
Brand was a beast. What are u talking about? And no, it's not a absolute certainty that Duncan/Garnett would have been considered the best players on those teams. Especially Garnett. The point remains the same anyway.:facepalm

[ThemBombs]

My true list.....


1. Kareem

2. MJ

3. Magic

4. Wilt

5. Kobe

6. Bird

7. Russel

8. Duncan

9. Shaquille

10. Hakeem:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

how am I the only one that noticed this?! what a joke!

[branslowski]

Wow...All this time these haters have been going against the retarded Bryant fans that have the power level of Krillin with no facts....Too bad your in the presence of Goku now..:oldlol:

[Horatio33]

Jacks3


Give Kobe Gasol/Duncan/Garnett/Webber/Dirk/Bosh/ etc and he's winning multiple rings. I can play too.

Give Shaq Allen/Pierce/LeBron/Iverson/Tony Parker/Jamal Mashburn/or Dwyane Wade while Shaq was with the Lakers and they got some rings too. Especially against the Sixers/Nets/Pacers. But it really depends on their supporting cast.[QUOTE/]


[QUOTE=MasterDurant24]Give Shaq Allen/Pierce/LeBron/Iverson/Tony Parker/Jamal Mashburn/or Dwyane Wade while Shaq was with the Lakers and they got some rings too. Especially against the Sixers/Nets/Pacers. But it really depends on their supporting cast.

you are both idiots. maybe Duncan can replace Shaq. maybe. no one else could. you obviously never saw Shaq play. no one in NBA history has had to be defended like Shaq. if you had seen him play, you would understand he created match-up problems that Duncan, Garnett, Webber, Dirk and Bosh would dream for. Chris freaking Bosh!!!! He ain't a superstar!! He couldn't carry prime Shaq's jock in a suitcase.

Also Mashburn or Parker over Kobe?! please. you are obviously stirring sh!t to annoy people. Only Wade could duplicate or better Kobe.

[guy]

Actually, Kobe would have a greater legacy without Shaq. His numbers would better. He would have even more accolades including more scoring titles. You wouldn't have these idiots belittling his play from 00-04 by saying shit like " oh he had Shaq". Oh, and there's little doubt the Lakers would put a team that contender around him, so 1-2 rings easily. He'd still be a top 10 player all-time regardless. Same with Shaq. :pimp:

1-2 rings easily? Unlike the past 5 years, and despite the fact that there was a huge influx of great perimeter players and a decrease in great big men, the NBA from 99-05 was still won by big men. For 7 years, the best player in the league was either Shaq or Duncan, and they were responsible for winning the most. LOL @ little doubt that Kobe would've won 1-2 rings easily, yet in a later post you say Shaq is not guaranteed to win any rings. Thats a huge the assumption to make. More then likely, Kobe without Shaq is probably in a slightly better situation then guys like AI, T-Mac, Vince, Pierce because he was a better player then all of those guys for some years and cause he's playing for the Lakers (then again he's also playing in a tougher conference.)

And accolades? As far as scoring titles go, he's not winning any from 97-00 regardless, cause he just wasn't that good. Even in 2000, he's not jumping up nearly 8 ppg just cause Shaq isn't there. Then from 01-03, he'd have to average at least 31-32 ppg to win over AI or T-Mac. Although thats definitely possible, its once again, a huge assumption to make. Then in 04, he had the most tumultous season of his career plus injuries, so its once again a huge assumption to make that he would've won a scoring titles. I do think he would've won more, but it definitely wasn't as great for his legacy as what did happen.

And MVPs? Sure playing with Shaq had its effect, but like I said, he just wasn't that good from 97-00. And then something people forget to point out is that in 01 and 04, he missed way too many games due to injury that it would've been an absolute joke if he won MVP even if he wasn't playing with Shaq. So that leaves 02 and 03, when Duncan was in his absolute prime and was easily the best player during those regular seasons. It would be a huge assumption to make that Kobe would've won over Duncan in those seasons.

So to say Kobe would've accomplished more without Shaq is kind of stupid IMO.

[necya]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

how am I the only one that noticed this?! what a joke!

how to argue with teenagers who have grown with kobe bryant and have never seen more than 5 games of larry Bird?

[indiefan24]

Wow...All this time these haters have been going against the retarded Bryant fans that have the power level of Krillin with no facts....Too bad your in the presence of Goku now..:oldlol:

nerd...this isn't some anime cartoon

[Jacks3]

He would have more scoring titles, more/same amount of All-NBA teams, and greater seasons. So yes, he would be more accomplished. Oh, and the comp in the league from 08-10 is every bit as good if not better than then 00-05. Don't kid yourself. There's a very real chance Kobe wins rings during that era with the appropriate support. 00-05 Bryant was still a top 3 player and the best perimeter player in basketball.:pimp:

[ThemBombs]

Oh, and the comp in the league from 08-10 is every bit as good if not better than then 00-05.
not really, Dwight laid an egg in the 09 Finals and The C's were way past their primes and possibly a season away from becoming washed up...

[guy]

:facepalm

Dude, are you a Lakers fan? Did you watch every game, playoff exc of the Lakers during our Championship runs?..I'll also take your "Kobe wouldn't be considered great if he didn't play with Shaq" and run it 2 ways...

1. In the way of All-Time rankings...Your right, he wouldn't be as high without the 5 titles 2 finals MVPS, he would be a notch lower with the 2 titles only...But Shaq needed Kobe..A Wing Player who could score and defend well, who could also take over in the clutch when Shaq sometimes couldn't...They both needed eachother...Every Laker Fan knows this.


I never said Shaq's legacy didn't benefit from playing with Kobe. I said he didn't benefit as much as Kobe benefitted from playing with Shaq.



2. Kobe got more "He's he better than Jordan?" Pub after Shaq left...It was during the time he was outscoring teams thru 3 quarters...It was during the time he was avg 40ppg in months...While playing with the great Kwame Brown...So, if we wanna say Kwame made him better, I cant really argue with you.


True, and this was also after he had 3 rings. If Kobe only had 2 rings right now instead of 5, there is no way the Jordan vs. Kobe discussion would be nearly as much.

[indiefan24]

not really, Dwight laid an egg in the 09 Finals and The C's were way past their primes and possibly a season away from becoming washed up...

Then create new respective threads saying how Howard and the Celtics are overrated.

[Svendiggity]

I never said Shaq's legacy didn't benefit from playing with Kobe. I said he didn't benefit as much as Kobe benefitted from playing with Shaq.



True, and this was also after he had 3 rings. If Kobe only had 2 rings right now instead of 5, there is no way the Jordan vs. Kobe discussion would be nearly as much.

yeah?

[Gifted Mind]

No, I don't agree with this Top 15 All-Time

[Jacks3]

not really, Dwight laid an egg in the 09 Finals and The C's were way past their primes and possibly a season away from becoming washed up...
Yes, really. Overall comp is just as strong if not as strong. In fact, the Lakers Finals comp these past three seasons is easily better than what they saw in 00-02.

[Jacks3]

If Kobe had 2 rings instead of 5 he'd still be arguably top 10 ever.

[Horatio33]

He would have more scoring titles, more/same amount of All-NBA teams, and greater seasons. So yes, he would be more accomplished. Oh, and the comp in the league from 08-10 is every bit as good if not better than then 00-05. Don't kid yourself. There's a very real chance Kobe wins rings during that era with the appropriate support. 00-05 Bryant was still a top 3 player and the best perimeter player in basketball.:pimp:

Why would have more scoring titles? MJ's days had no moving screens, real flagrant fouls, handchecking pushing him away from the bucket, no star system and less teams diluting the talent.

Mike was averaging 37ppg during tougher times. Kobe couldn't average that against substandard defence that is bailed out by the rules of today. when Kobe got 81, it was against the Raptors who had no superstars and useless players guarding him.

[branslowski]

[QUOTE]I never said Shaq's legacy didn't benefit from playing with Kobe. I said he didn't benefit as much as Kobe benefitted from playing with Shaq.

I can agree with this.


True, and this was also after he had 3 rings. If Kobe only had 2 rings right now instead of 5, there is no way the Jordan vs. Kobe discussion would be nearly as much.

Again bro..He wasn't getting the over hype the year after winning the 3rd..Nor did he get it the 1st year without Shaq...And by that time, he only still had the 3rings...But once he started to show the extreme dominant scoring, and record breaking feats, he started getting that crazy "Kobe>>Jordan" pub...They weren't even viewing the rings clearly...It was the extreme baller skills and record breaking....We can agree to disagree though.

Although, Now since he has the 5...They can try to compare the rings...But before he got to 4, he was being proped up to Jordan.

[indiefan24]

If Kobe had 2 rings instead of 5 he'd still be arguably top 10 ever.

No he wouldn't

[New York Knicks]

If Kobe had 2 rings instead of 5 he'd still be arguably top 10 ever.
After ring #3 SLAM (pretty sure it was them) released a Top 75 players of All-Time list. Kobe was ranked something like #59.

[kauaihawaii]

Since players on the all-time list have played with each other, underrating certain players in order to elevate one's favorite player is unavoidable.
Most Kobe fans constantly hate on Shaq, and as far I'm concerned, so do most Laker fans.

[Jacks3]

No he wouldn't
Yes, he would.

[guy]

He would have more scoring titles, more/same amount of All-NBA teams, and greater seasons. So yes, he would be more accomplished. Oh, and the comp in the league from 08-10 is every bit as good if not better than then 00-05. Don't kid yourself. There's a very real chance Kobe wins rings during that era with the appropriate support. 00-05 Bryant was still a top 3 player and the best perimeter player in basketball.:pimp:

He'd have more scoring titles, and thats about it. He's been on every All-NBA first team since he became a superstar in 01 except for 01 and 05, where he missed alot of games anyway so that probably doesn't change.

Whats the appropriate support? He'd arguably need even more support then he has today cause he wasn't as good of a player/leader back then.

Lets say Shaq never leaves Orlando and they never get Grant Hill but they still get T-Mac in 01. He still has Penny in 99. Then lets say since the Lakers miss out on Shaq, they sign Deke or Zo that offseason, who were both FAs that offseason as well. The Magic are EASILY making every Finals from 99-03running through such a weak Eastern Conference except for maybe 00 when Shaq doesn't have Penny or T-Mac facing a tired West team. A Kobe/Deke or Kobe/Zo Lakers team are not beating any of the Spurs teams that won titles and maybe not even some of them that didn't, the 00 Blazers or 02 Kings, or a Shaq/T-Mac Magic team.

[indiefan24]

Yes, he would.

no he would not

:facepalm

[Jacks3]

Why would have more scoring titles? MJ's days had no moving screens, real flagrant fouls, handchecking pushing him away from the bucket, no star system and less teams diluting the talent.

Mike was averaging 37ppg during tougher times. Kobe couldn't average that against substandard defence that is bailed out by the rules of today. when Kobe got 81, it was against the Raptors who had no superstars and useless players guarding him.
lol. What the hell did MJ come from?:facepalm

[indiefan24]

Yes, he would.

why argue hypotheticals...it's stupid when the haters do it and it's stupid when you do it.

[guy]

Again bro..He wasn't getting the over hype the year after winning the 3rd..Nor did he get it the 1st year without Shaq...And by that time, he only still had the 3rings...But once he started to show the extreme dominant scoring, and record breaking feats, he started getting that crazy "Kobe>>Jordan" pub...They weren't even viewing the rings clearly...It was the extreme baller skills and record breaking....We can agree to disagree though.

Although, Now since he has the 5...They can try to compare the rings...But before he got to 4, he was being proped up to Jordan.

Sure the scoring and records had alot to do with it. If he didn't have those skills of course they wouldn't compare them. But are you really trying to say the 3 rings had nothing to do with the comparison? I can't remember how many times I heard the media point out that he had more rings then Jordan at whatever age while ignoring the context of the situation. I'd say the scoring records and the # of rings are both equally huge reasons why the media and some of the delusional Kobe fans try to make Kobe vs. Jordan a legit argument beyond them both being 6'6 SGs that play a similar style.

[Svendiggity]

In the NBA I'm taking Kobe over anyone, even IF Lebron is better.

In the NFL I'm taking Brady over any QB, even IF Manning is better.

When talent levels are close, the guy that wants it more will always win more. Always. In professional sports all the top players we debate about are amazing, but it takes dedication, passion, love for the game, leadership, and the will to win.


1-MJ
2-Kobe
3-Russell
4-Bird
5-Magic

[Desperado]

:oldlol: @ the overrating of West and Oscar.

[Desperado]

Actually, Kobe would have a greater legacy without Shaq. His numbers would better. He would have even more accolades including more scoring titles. You wouldn't have these idiots belittling his play from 00-04 by saying shit like " oh he had Shaq". Oh, and there's little doubt the Lakers would put a team that contender around him, so 1-2 rings easily. He'd still be a top 10 player all-time regardless. Same with Shaq. :pimp:



LMAO @ haters still using the Shaq card.


Shaq with Penny = 0 rings

Shaq with Kobe = 3 rings

Shaq with D-Wade = 1 ring

Shaq with Steve Nash = 0 rings

Shaq with Lebron = 0 rings


None of them made Shaq as good as Kobe did.





Kobe without Shaq = 2 rings, 3 Finals, 3 MVPs (2 Finals, 1 league) etc. and his career is far from over.

Shaq without Kobe = 1 ring, 2 Finals, his career is over probably wishes he would have kept his mouth shut and stayed in LA. :lol

The whole thing should be moot anyway because they both won without each other but even though Kobe proved he could win without Shaq and validated his first 3 titles haters still grasp at straws because of insecurity.

[jlauber]

IMHO, the Bird-Duncan-Kobe debates are VERY close. You can make legitimate arguments for all three. I also believe all three are behind a rock solid top-5 of Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, and Kareem. Shaq, because of peak, probably has a slight edge at #6. And, also in my opinion, Olajuwon should be included in the top-10. And, you could possibly make an argument for Oscar...which would now it make it a top-11.

The real question, then, is...those that claim that Kobe is not a top-10 player...please give me YOUR list of those that YOU ahead of him.

[Jacks3]

LMAO @ haters still using the Shaq card.


Shaq with Penny = 0 rings

Shaq with Kobe = 3 rings

Shaq with D-Wade = 1 ring

Shaq with Steve Nash = 0 rings

Shaq with Lebron = 0 rings


None of them made Shaq as good as Kobe did.





Kobe without Shaq = 2 rings, 3 Finals, 3 MVPs (2 Finals, 1 league) etc. and his career is far from over.

Shaq without Kobe = 1 ring, 2 Finals, his career is over probably wishes he would have kept his mouth shut and stayed in LA. :lol

The whole thing should be moot anyway because they both won without each other but even though Kobe proved he could win without Shaq and validated his first 3 titles haters still grasp at straws because of insecurity.
:applause:

[indiefan24]

LMAO @ haters still using the Shaq card.


Shaq with Penny = 0 rings

Shaq with Kobe = 3 rings

Shaq with D-Wade = 1 ring

Shaq with Steve Nash = 0 rings

Shaq with Lebron = 0 rings


None of them made Shaq as good as Kobe did.





Kobe without Shaq = 2 rings, 3 Finals, 3 MVPs (2 Finals, 1 league) etc. and his career is far from over.

Shaq without Kobe = 1 ring, 2 Finals, his career is over probably wishes he would have kept his mouth shut and stayed in LA. :lol

The whole thing should be moot anyway because they both won without each other but even though Kobe proved he could win without Shaq and validated his first 3 titles haters still grasp at straws because of insecurity.

shaq was in his prime in la

[bdreason]

1 Kareem
2 MJ
3 Russell
4 Wilt
5 Magic
6 Bird
7 Hakeem
8 Shaq
9 Duncan
10 Oscar
11 Moses
12 Kobe
13 Baylor
14 West
15 Dr. J

[SRZ66]

Those are the top-10 players on MY list...albeit in a different order...

1. Russell
2. MJ
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Kareem
6. Duncan/Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Olajuwon
10. Bird
theres always gotta be the "different" guy. just lol at russell over jordan, jesus dude

[raptorfan_dr07]

But, I do think Kobe is better...And the Facts show me this...

Kobe avg More PPG (because scoring is all that matters to this new booty dipsh*t generation of fans)
Kobe More Total Points All-Time (just like Karl Malone also has more total points all time that Bird)
Kobe avg more Playoff PPG (Just like Allen Iverson also has more Playoff PPG than Bird)
Kobe more Total Playoff Points(because Kobe didn't go to college and had an advantage of playing more NBA games)

Kobe more All Star App(because all-star appearances definitely judge a player's career :rolleyes:)
Kobe more All Star MVP(because All-Star MVPs DEFINITELY judge a player's career, Oscar Robertson has as many All-Star MVPs as Kobe, he's better than Kobe all time)
Kobe More All-NBA Team (1st Teams too)(Again, Kobe played more seasons that Bird due to coming straight out of high school)
Kobe more All-Defensive Teams (1st too)(Most that are widely regarded as undeserved except by Kobe troll and n*thuggers like yourself)

Kobe More Titles(Bird has MORE titles as the number one guy on his team, Kobe was a sidekick for his first 3)
Both have 2 Finals MVP's(Bird was the best player on the Celtics in 1981, so I guess this was the year that Kobe FINALLY surpassed Chauncey Billups and Tony Parker as a player)

Kobe more Dominant Scorer...Way more 50pt games, Way more 60pt games(because scoring is all that matters in a game:rolleyes: , that's the ONLY impact Kobe has EVER HAD on a game)

Kobe has way More Game-Winners...Bird has about 12-14, while Kobe has 28..(only second to Jordan).(guess that means Kobe is the 2nd greatest player ever right?)




Again...You can do the same for Bird...Im sure Bird is the Better Passer, Better Rebounder, Better FG%...More Reg season MVP's aswell...

Which shows the Toe to toe facts/case these guy's have against eachother...But again, to those who hate Kobe, dont act like it's comical to compare the two..It's blatantly retarded.

And Im me...Im not the No brain having Trolls who say's "Kobe>>Jordan because 81>>69"...I would run circles around those f*cks....I compress my Power level like Goku..:lol ...I would tear this forum alive.

You never do sh*t here but post veiled garbage about how Kobe's better than everyone and bullsh*t about how guys like Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain are nothing but overhyped, overrated chumps who were only great because they played in the 60's. You're the complete dumbf*ck who said if Bill Russell played in the NBA today, he would be Ben Wallace or Kendrick Perkins. You said DJ Mbenga would put up astronomical numbers in the 60's. You try to come across as a non biased poster who doesn't agree with trolls overrating Kobe, yet in EVERY SINGLE ONE of your posts, your overrating him yourself, trying to argue that he's better than some other TRUE legend.

Besides, you just answered your own question. Everything you've posted, says the EXACT SAME THING, that the ONLY thing Kobe has on Larry Bird, is SCORING. You go on to mention things(notice, PLURAL) that Bird has on Kobe. Bird has passing, EFFICIENT scoring, rebounding, and Bird could score as well. Larry Bird wasn't that much an inferior scorer to Kobe. Everything else on the basketball court, Bird did BETTER. Bird was a FAR better teammate as well. His competitiveness and desire to win was better than Kobe as well. Bird also NEVER had the luxury of dictated where was going to play on draft night, nor the luxury of getting to play with arguably the most dominant player ever in his prime along with arguably the GOAT coach.

Larry Bird was a TRUE SUPERSTAR in every way possible. The ONLY reason, and this is the absolute truth, that Larry Bird is so disrespected is because he's white. And I'm not even white myself. People can't fathom that some white hillbilly from the heart of Indiana was a BETTER basketball player than most "brothers" who have ever played the game. It is VERY comical to compare Kobe Bryant and Larry Bird. That's an insult to Bird, and to anybody that knows and follows NBA basketball.

By the way, there's nothing wrong with Calabis' list, I'd just say he has Oscar Robertson ranked too high. Not even going to respond to Desperado. I've stopped owning his @$$ in every post and just started reporting them all. Only thing I'll say to his dumb@$$ is Shaq>>>>>>>>Kobe, in EVERY aspect possible. There is NO debate.

[raptorfan_dr07]

1 Kareem
2 MJ
3 Russell
4 Wilt
5 Magic
6 Bird
7 Hakeem
8 Shaq
9 Duncan
10 Oscar
11 Moses
12 Kobe
13 Baylor
14 West
15 Dr. J

Now this is a list I can agree with. Still think Oscar and Kobe are a bit too high.

[jlauber]

theres always gotta be the "different" guy. just lol at russell over jordan, jesus dude

Yeah...the greatest winner and defensive player in NBA history, has absolutely no case over MJ, who played on five losing teams in his career.

[necya]

You never do sh*t here but post veiled garbage about how Kobe's better than everyone and bullsh*t about how guys like Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain are nothing but overhyped, overrated chumps who were only great because they played in the 60's. You're the complete dumbf*ck who said if Bill Russell played in the NBA today, he would be Ben Wallace or Kendrick Perkins. You said DJ Mbenga would put up astronomical numbers in the 60's. You try to come across as a non biased poster who doesn't agree with trolls overrating Kobe, yet in EVERY SINGLE ONE of your posts, your overrating him yourself, trying to argue that he's better than some other TRUE legend.

Besides, you just answered your own question. Everything you've posted, says the EXACT SAME THING, that the ONLY thing Kobe has on Larry Bird, is SCORING. You go on to mention things(notice, PLURAL) that Bird has on Kobe. Bird has passing, EFFICIENT scoring, rebounding, and Bird could score as well. Larry Bird wasn't that much an inferior scorer to Kobe. Everything else on the basketball court, Bird did BETTER. Bird was a FAR better teammate as well. His competitiveness and desire to win was better than Kobe as well. Bird also NEVER had the luxury of dictated where was going to play on draft night, nor the luxury of getting to play with arguably the most dominant player ever in his prime along with arguably the GOAT coach.

Larry Bird was a TRUE SUPERSTAR in every way possible. The ONLY reason, and this is the absolute truth, that Larry Bird is so disrespected is because he's white. And I'm not even white myself. People can't fathom that some white hillbilly from the heart of Indiana was a BETTER basketball player than most "brothers" who have ever played the game. It is VERY comical to compare Kobe Bryant and Larry Bird. That's an insult to Bird, and to anybody that knows and follows NBA basketball.

By the way, there's nothing wrong with Calabis' list, I'd just say he has Oscar Robertson ranked too high. Not even going to respond to Desperado. I've stopped owning his @$$ in every post and just started reporting them all. Only thing I'll say to his dumb@$$ is Shaq>>>>>>>>Kobe, in EVERY aspect possible. There is NO debate.

let this looser in his own ignorance. don't waste your time, this thread could have been interesting but as soon as kobe's fans started to post here, this thread has becoming funny then annoying.
a volume scorer with an average impact on his team, (no matter all the talent he has, the important is how he uses it) is not on the 20 best players who have ever played the basketball game.

[Jacks3]

Not in the top 20?:facepalm Name me 20 better.:facepalm

[Desperado]

Scottie Pippen's record in seasons without MJ: 317-225 (.585)
20-23 in the playoffs

MJ's record in seasons without Pippen: 182-228 (.444)
1-9 in the playoffs





Jordan was replaced by a CBA journeyman named Pete Myers and Scottie without MJ won 55 games (only lost 2 more games then the year before with MJ)



Plus, they even make it to the 2nd round of the playoffs with Scottie and without Michael which is better than they ever did with Michael but without Scottie. In 1994 Scottie became the 2nd player in NBA history to lead his team in scoring, rebounding, assists, blocks and steals....yeah, Michael made him better. :rolleyes:


Jordan played five years of his career without Pippen. ALL FIVE WERE LOSING TEAMS.

As a great man once said, without Scottie Pippen, Jordan was nothing more than a bald-headed Dominique Wilkins.

The Bulls dropped TWO GAMES after losing the "greatest player of all time" Yeah, right....


Remembered that they won 55 without Michael but with Scottie, which is fine. How'd they do WITH Michael but WITHOUT Scottie? Let's check:

38, 30 and 40 wins... that's it... aw, that's too bad... 40 wins is SO CLOSE to a .500 season, I'd almost want to give Michael credit for a winning season that year but I can't... a loser is a loser. I can't change the laws of mathematics. If you lose more games than you win, you're a LOSER! And that's what Michael was without Scottie as a teammate. Sorry if the truth hurts, but you MJ jockers (hopefully) will get over it.

[Simple Jack]

In the NBA I'm taking Kobe over anyone, even IF Lebron is better.

In the NFL I'm taking Brady over any QB, even IF Manning is better.

When talent levels are close, the guy that wants it more will always win more. Always. In professional sports all the top players we debate about are amazing, but it takes dedication, passion, love for the game, leadership, and the will to win.


1-MJ
2-Kobe
3-Russell
4-Bird
5-Magic


So you don't put any emphasis on talent level on the respective teams?

Why do you act like football is an individual sport? Same for basketball.

[Simple Jack]

Scottie Pippen's record in seasons without MJ: 317-225 (.585)
20-23 in the playoffs

MJ's record in seasons without Pippen: 182-228 (.444)
1-9 in the playoffs





Jordan was replaced by a CBA journeyman named Pete Myers and Scottie without MJ won 55 games (only lost 2 more games then the year before with MJ)



Plus, they even make it to the 2nd round of the playoffs with Scottie and without Michael which is better than they ever did with Michael but without Scottie. In 1994 Scottie became the 2nd player in NBA history to lead his team in scoring, rebounding, assists, blocks and steals....yeah, Michael made him better. :rolleyes:


Jordan played five years of his career without Pippen. ALL FIVE WERE LOSING TEAMS.

As a great man once said, without Scottie Pippen, Jordan was nothing more than a bald-headed Dominique Wilkins.

The Bulls dropped TWO GAMES after losing the "greatest player of all time" Yeah, right....


Remembered that they won 55 without Michael but with Scottie, which is fine. How'd they do WITH Michael but WITHOUT Scottie? Let's check:

38, 30 and 40 wins... that's it... aw, that's too bad... 40 wins is SO CLOSE to a .500 season, I'd almost want to give Michael credit for a winning season that year but I can't... a loser is a loser. I can't change the laws of mathematics. If you lose more games than you win, you're a LOSER! And that's what Michael was without Scottie as a teammate. Sorry if the truth hurts, but you MJ jockers (hopefully) will get over it.

The season after they won 2 less with Michael they struggled to maintain a .500 record until Jordan came back and led them to a 14-3 (i believe) run to end the season.

In any event, you're right; Pippen > Jordan. Jordan is just another flashy perimeter player a la McGrady and Carter without Pippen.

Is it just me or are Kobe fans the most obnoxious/ignorant/illogical people on the internet. It's sickening.

[Svendiggity]

So you don't put any emphasis on talent level on the respective teams?

Why do you act like football is an individual sport? Same for basketball.

quit putting words in my mouth.

[SinJackal]

LMAO... I won't say a word, You be the Judge.
I personally don't agree with it. Its a bit of a mockery. LOl @ Moses,Shaq,Duncan and Hakeem being over Kobe. Especially Moses, that one just makes no sense at all. :facepalm
But i will highlight a few names that are off.

Shaq and Duncan are above Kobe on nearly every non Kobe fanboy's list.

[DixieNourmous]

Another one of these threads?


REally?

[MasterDurant24]

Jacks3

[QUOTE]Give Kobe Gasol/Duncan/Garnett/Webber/Dirk/Bosh/ etc and he's winning multiple rings. I can play too.

Give Shaq Allen/Pierce/LeBron/Iverson/Tony Parker/Jamal Mashburn/or Dwyane Wade while Shaq was with the Lakers and they got some rings too. Especially against the Sixers/Nets/Pacers. But it really depends on their supporting cast.[QUOTE/]




you are both idiots. maybe Duncan can replace Shaq. maybe. no one else could. you obviously never saw Shaq play. no one in NBA history has had to be defended like Shaq. if you had seen him play, you would understand he created match-up problems that Duncan, Garnett, Webber, Dirk and Bosh would dream for. Chris freaking Bosh!!!! He ain't a superstar!! He couldn't carry prime Shaq's jock in a suitcase.

Also Mashburn or Parker over Kobe?! please. you are obviously stirring sh!t to annoy people. Only Wade could duplicate or better Kobe.
I was exaggerating. Yeesh. When he said Amare/Howard/Bosh with Kobe I just got a little annoyed. Although that 99-2000 Lakers team with Mashburn would be interesting....

[HBKMGa]

Another one of these threads?


REally?



apparently

[MasterDurant24]

It is just hiliarious how people think Kobe has no case over Bird, Shaq, and Duncan. I get annoyed when people say Kobe's better without backing it up, but it's obvious that he has a case for the top 6. I mean 5 championships, an MVP, scoring titles, numerous All-NBA and All-Defensive teams, 2 Finals MVP and 3 All Star Game MVPs, and all the Hollinger Stats(Even though I don't really care for them) make a pretty strong statement. If Kobe wins another title this year, I'm going to have to move him a couple spots up. Especially against a 3-headed Miami beast.

[Simple Jack]

quit putting words in my mouth.

I'm not, it's a natural succession to your logic. Unless you decide to reevaluate and change your logic at which point your argument falls apart.

[Simple Jack]

It is just hiliarious how people think Kobe has no case over Bird, Shaq, and Duncan. I get annoyed when people say Kobe's better without backing it up, but it's obvious that he has a case for the top 6. I mean 5 championships, an MVP, scoring titles, numerous All-NBA and All-Defensive teams, 2 Finals MVP and 3 All Star Game MVPs, and all the Hollinger Stats(Even though I don't really care for them) make a pretty strong statement. If Kobe wins another title this year, I'm going to have to move him a couple spots up. Especially against a 3-headed Miami beast.

What about Havlicek?

[MasterDurant24]

What about Havlicek?
Cool guy.

[Svendiggity]

I'm not, it's a natural succession to your logic. Unless you decide to reevaluate and change your logic at which point your argument falls apart.

Yes, you are. You're being a jackass.

[jlauber]

It is just hiliarious how people think Kobe has no case over Bird, Shaq, and Duncan. I get annoyed when people say Kobe's better without backing it up, but it's obvious that he has a case for the top 6. I mean 5 championships, an MVP, scoring titles, numerous All-NBA and All-Defensive teams, 2 Finals MVP and 3 All Star Game MVPs, and all the Hollinger Stats(Even though I don't really care for them) make a pretty strong statement. If Kobe wins another title this year, I'm going to have to move him a couple spots up. Especially against a 3-headed Miami beast.

:applause:

I am a big Kobe fan, but I think the real problem is that the "pro-Kobe" fans here, over-rate the hell out of the guy, so then the "anti-Kobe" folks respond with ridiculous assertions of their own...some saying that he isn't even top-20.

And, you're right. IF Kobe can play well this, and get another ring...I just don't see a problem with him being ranked somewhere around 6th. IMHO, he would have to win a seventh, or have a monumental season, to move any higher. But, MJ won three rings after age 32, so it is not an impossibility.

[The_Yearning]

:applause:

I am a big Kobe fan, but I think the real problem is that the "pro-Kobe" fans here, over-rate the hell out of the guy, so then the "anti-Kobe" folks respond with ridiculous assertions of their own...some saying that he isn't even top-20.

And, you're right. IF Kobe can play well this, and get another ring...I just don't see a problem with him being ranked somewhere around 6th. IMHO, he would have to win a seventh, or have a monumental season, to move any higher. But, MJ won three rings after age 32, so it is not an impossibility.

If Kobe plays long enough to crack 30,000 and win a few more rings, he's top 3 no question.

[SinJackal]

If Kobe plays long enough to crack 30,000 and win a few more rings, he's top 3 no question.

I agree, but a "few more rings" is a big "if". He'll get the 30k though for sure. He's not going to retire until he does. rofl :\ He won't retire unless he passes MJ's points either (even if he blows out both his knees, he'd slosh through several horrible sub 10 PPG seasons just to pass his points).

[Simple Jack]

Yes, you are. You're being a jackass.

You were quoted as saying that you would take Brady over Peyton and Kobe over LeBron despite who's "better" because of "will to win" which you stated Brady has and Kobe has (as evident by their superbowl and championship rings respectively) right? Using that logic, you are assuming that they are directly responsible for it. It's a team sport, there are plenty of other factors involved like....teammates.

[Simple Jack]

Cool guy.

Havlicek has the stats/accomplishments to be named among some of these players. When you put his rings in context (just like Kobe's), you get a different perspective. Not to say Havlicek is better than Kobe because he clearly isn't, but using your criteria, there's a bunch of people you can throw on that list that clearly don't belong there.

[MasterDurant24]

Havlicek has the stats/accomplishments to be named among some of these players. When you put his rings in context (just like Kobe's), you get a different perspective. Not to say Havlicek is better than Kobe because he clearly isn't, but using your criteria, there's a bunch of people you can throw on that list that clearly don't belong there.
What criteria? It was a simple list of accomplishments.

[magnax1]

Not trying to start a huge Kobe argument, but Moses definitely has an argument over Kobe. I'm fine with the list.

[jlauber]

Not trying to start a huge Kobe argument, but Moses definitely has an argument over Kobe. I'm fine with the list.

Moses definitely has a case for top-10. The more I look at his career resume, the more inclined I am to now consider a top-12 list, with inter-changeable players.

Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Olajuwon, Bird, Oscar...and now Moses.

After that, West, Robinson, and Havlicek would round out my Top-15.

[magnax1]

Moses definitely has a case for top-10. The more I look at his career resume, the more inclined I am to now consider a top-12 list, with inter-changeable players.

Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Olajuwon, Bird, Oscar...and now Moses.

After that, West, Robinson, and Havlicek would round out my Top-15.
Yeah, I usually make a top 15 list instead of top 10, because I feel bad that a couple players you could make a case for top 10 get left out. I also feel similar about Moses though. If you asked me 2 year ago, I wouldn't have thought he was that terribly amazing, maybe top 20 or so, but now that I've seen more and know more about his preformances I really feel that he deserves his spot at # 10 or so.

[AirJordan&Magic]

:oldlol: at this idiot placing Kobe at 5 on the all time great list.

As much as I dislike the unmerited hatred against Kobe, you guys really can't blame some guys for writing some of the stuff they do about Kobe.

Saying foolishness like "Kobe is the 5th greatest player of all time" is a perfect example of why Kobe fans get a bad reputation, even though it is only a select few that actually believe this nonsense.

Because the dumb Kobe trolls (Griffenmoney, Logo, Alpha wolf) make theirselves more noticable than respectable Kobe fans on this forum like Catch24, Gts, and Branslowski.

[magnax1]

Does anybody know if Griffmoney or Logo are new accounts of cantstop?

[AirJordan&Magic]

Moses definitely has a case for top-10. The more I look at his career resume, the more inclined I am to now consider a top-12 list, with inter-changeable players.

Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Olajuwon, Bird, Oscar...and now Moses.

After that, West, Robinson, and Havlicek would round out my Top-15.

Great post. I do think that Moses Malone is a bit underrated when it comes to these rankings.

My top 12 goes like this.

1 & 2 is debatable between Michael Jordan and Kareem Abdul Jabbar, imo.

3. Bill Russell
4. Magic Johnson
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Shaquille O'neal ( Shaq, imo, could be ranked anywhere between 4 & 7)
7. Tim Duncan
8. Larry Bird
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Hakeem Olajuwon.
11. Moses Malone
12. Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, and believe it or not, Rick Barry.

Rick Barry is another legend who I feel gets criminally underrated by many.
Hondo as well.

[AirJordan&Magic]

Now this is a list I can agree with. Still think Oscar and Kobe are a bit too high.

:wtf:? Kobe at freaking TWELVE is a bit too high????

Do people really hate the guy that much that they believe nonsense like this?

[jlauber]

Great post. I do think that Moses Malone is a bit underrated when it comes to these rankings.

My top 12 goes like this.

1 & 2 is debatable between Michael Jordan and Kareem Abdul Jabbar, imo.

3. Bill Russell
4. Magic Johnson
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Shaquille O'neal ( Shaq, imo, could be ranked anywhere between 4 & 7)
7. Tim Duncan
8. Larry Bird
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Hakeem Olajuwon.
11. Moses Malone
12. Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, and believe it or not, Rick Barry.

Rick Barry is another legend who I feel gets criminally underrated by many.

Another excellent list. I should have remembered Barry myself. I grew up close to the Bay Area. His 74-75 season has to rank among the greatest in NBA history. The Warriors had traded Thurmond. Gone was Clyde Lee. And Jeff Mullins was sent to the back of the bench. No one gave them any hope. They shot out to a 27-9 record, and while they cooled down, they made it to the playoffs. Down 3-2 against the Bulls (and Thurmond), and down late in the 4th quarter in game six, they came back to win that game, and then the series. Then, in the Finals against the heavily-favored Bullets (60-22), they came from behind in the 4th quarter in all four games, en route to a sweep.

Barry deserves a lot of credit for taking that group of over-achievers to a title.

[Mr. Jabbar]

1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Magic
4. Russell
5. Alcindor
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Duncan
10. Oscar

Alcindor should not be ranked lower than #3 by any means but oh well

[G-Funk]

Not trying to start a huge Kobe argument, but Moses definitely has an argument over Kobe. I'm fine with the list.


every great has an argument over another.

[G-Funk]

1.Michael Jordan :No Need to Discuss, Most complete player of All-time

2.K. Abdul-Jabbar:Great Career He had the numbers and Hardwear.

3.Magic Johnson: Greatest Team player of All-time but His D was Suspect.

4.Kobe Bryant: Only second player to master the game, read 1.

5.Bill Russell: If it was just about rings he would be #1.

6.Wilt Chamberlain: Most dominant on Offense, If it was just because of stats He would be #1

7.Larry Bird: One of the most competitive players of all-time but his D was suspect.

8.Tim Duncan: Greatest PF of All-time( If rings did not matter Malone would take his place.)

9.Shaquille O'Neal: Dominated with his size and strengh but not the most skilled player of All-time(not even top 20)

10.Hakeem Olajuwon: All he needed to do is win one against MJ and he would be ranked 4.

[MasterDurant24]

1.Michael Jordan (No Need to Discuss, Most complete player of All-time)

2.K. Abdul-Jabbar(Great Career He had the numbers and Hardwear)

3.Magic Johnson( Greatest Team player of All-time but His D was Suspect)

4.Kobe Bryant( Only second player to master the game, read 1)

5.Bill Russell(If it was just about rings he would be #1)

6.Wilt Chamberlain(Most dominant on Offense, If it was just because of stats He would be #1)

7.Larry Bird(One of the most competitive players of all-time but his D was suspect)

8.Tim Duncan(Greatest PF of All-time, If rings did not matter Malone would tak his place)

9.Shaquille O'Neal(Dominated with his size and strengh but didn't

10.Hakeem Olajuwon (All he needed to do is win one against MJ and he would be ranked 4)

Wow.

[AirJordan&Magic]

1.Michael Jordan :No Need to Discuss, Most complete player of All-time

2.K. Abdul-Jabbar:Great Career He had the numbers and Hardwear.

3.Magic Johnson: Greatest Team player of All-time but His D was Suspect.

4.Kobe Bryant: Only second player to master the game, read 1.

5.Bill Russell: If it was just about rings he would be #1.

6.Wilt Chamberlain: Most dominant on Offense, If it was just because of stats He would be #1

7.Larry Bird: One of the most competitive players of all-time but his D was suspect.

8.Tim Duncan: Greatest PF of All-time( If rings did not matter Malone would take his place.)

9.Shaquille O'Neal: Dominated with his size and strengh but not the most skilled player of All-time(not even top 20)

10.Hakeem Olajuwon: All he needed to do is win one against MJ and he would be ranked 4.

Good lord. Kobe should not be ranked higher than 7.

[Simple Jack]

What criteria? It was a simple list of accomplishments.

Saying Kobe should be among, or over certain people is an opinion; fine. You justify it however by listing certain things and reiterating that this is why he should be among them, hence it being your criteria.

[MasterDurant24]

Saying Kobe should be among, or over certain people is an opinion; fine. You justify it however by listing certain things and reiterating that this is why he should be among them, hence it being your criteria.
Okay whatever.

[magnax1]

every great has an argument over another.
No, not every great has a good argument over another. As far as I'm concerned Magic has no argument over Russell, Wilt, Kareem and Jordan, though Laker fans still love to stick him up there.

[New York Knicks]

Good lord. Kobe should not be ranked higher than 7.
And even that's a stretch.

[G-Funk]

No, not every great has a good argument over another. As far as I'm concerned Magic has no argument over Russell, Wilt, Kareem and Jordan, though Laker fans still love to stick him up there.


that's just your opinion buddy, btw bottom line is that Lakers have 7 players on the top 15 list.

[G-Funk]

Good lord. Kobe should not be ranked higher than 7.


why cause u said?

[justin43]

My top ten
1. Jordan- GOAT
2. Kareem- Didn't beat Jordan.
3. Russell- Rings are not the only thing that counts in becoming goat.
4. Wilt- Dominant, but not as much as a winner.
5. Magic- Kobe may take this spot with #6 as well as goat Laker title.
6. Bird-
7. Shaq- Too dominant not to place over Duncan/Kobe right now.
8a. Duncan/Kobe-Can't decide, who is 8th or 9th right now.
8b. Duncan/Kobe-However, a few more years of consistency Kobe gets 8th even without winning another ring.
10. Hakeem

[Calabis]

To have Bird ahead of Kobe is comical. Comedy gold.

I have Kobe ahead of Bird and if Bird is ranked so high than Kobe is easily cracks the top 4.

Kobe is Tier 1.


http://i935.photobucket.com/albums/ad198/sober_gifs/24b6zk4_thjpg.gif

[justin43]

Bird is not even in my top 5. Kobe, as of right now, only has a good case for 7 at best and 9th at worst on the top 10. Kobe has an okay case for 6th, but you will have a hard time convincing me.

[AirJordan&Magic]

why cause u said?

Because I have criterias for ranking players.

I consider peak play, skill level/talent, winning/ success, individual accolades, longevity, impact on team, and statistical production (put in proper context, of course).

And when factoring all this in, Kobe is simply not a top 5 player of all time. At least not in my opinion.
The highest I can see Kobe being fairly ranked, at this point of his career, is number 7 on the all time list.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

[Calabis]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQkYxfenDHA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7Ai601RCLQ&feature=related

Why people leave Oscar out of their top ten amazes me

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/343202-oscar-robertson-the-most-underrated-player-of-all-time

[Simple Jack]

that's just your opinion buddy, btw bottom line is that Lakers have 7 players on the top 15 list.

So you argue that every great has an argument over another yet you already established who is for sure on the top 15 list?

[RazorBaLade]

So you argue that every great has an argument over another yet you already established who is for sure on the top 15 list?

whoa not so simple are we? CONFUSING

[justin43]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQkYxfenDHA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7Ai601RCLQ&feature=related

Why people leave Oscar out of their top ten amazes me

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/343202-oscar-robertson-the-most-underrated-player-of-all-time



My top ten
1. Jordan- GOAT
2. Kareem- Didn't beat Jordan.
3. Russell- Rings are not the only thing that counts in becoming goat.
4. Wilt- Dominant, but not as much as a winner.
5. Magic- Kobe may take this spot with #6 as well as goat Laker title.
6. Bird-
7. Shaq- Too dominant not to place over Duncan/Kobe right now.
8a. Duncan/Kobe-Can't decide, who is 8th or 9th right now.
8b. Duncan/Kobe-However, a few more years of consistency Kobe gets 8th even without winning another ring.
10. Hakeem

Who on this top 10 is Oscar better than or has an argument for?:confusedshrug:

[Simple Jack]

whoa not so simple are we? CONFUSING

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-n_zk7e0ZU#t=00m42s

[FCN]

Kobe is still not top 10 all-time.

If the Lakers three-peat again this year though, he will be not top ten, but top 5.

[tpols]

Kobe is still not top 10 all-time.

If the Lakers three-peat again this year though, he will be not top ten, but top 5.
are you saying if the lakers win next year kobe leapfrogs from 10+ to 5 or below?

[New York Knicks]

Kobe's not entering the Top 6. 7 is as high as he'll go. Gasol, on the other hand, will climb the ranks if they three-peat. He'll probably finish his career in the Top 25-30 if he's not there already.

[FCN]

are you saying if the lakers win next year kobe leapfrogs from 10+ to 5 or below?

yep

[ThaRegul8r]

Kobe is still not top 10 all-time.

If the Lakers three-peat again this year though, he will be not top ten, but top 5.

So how Kobe himself plays has nothing to do with it?

Say, if Kobe doesn't play particularly well, but the Lakers win anyway, then that alone would vault him into the top five?

[FCN]

So how Kobe himself plays has nothing to do with it?

Say, if Kobe doesn't play particularly well, but the Lakers win anyway, then that alone would vault him into the top five?

No, of course not. If Kobe stinks it up and plays like he did in game 7 that would change things.
Kobe has to play well or he would still not even be top 10.

[ThaRegul8r]

Kobe is still not top 10 all-time.

If the Lakers three-peat again this year though, he will be not top ten, but top 5.

So how Kobe himself plays has nothing to do with it?

Say, if Kobe doesn't play particularly well, but the Lakers win anyway, then that alone would vault him into the top five?

No, of course not. If Kobe stinks it up and plays like he did in game 7 that would change things.
Kobe has to play well or he would still not even be top 10.

Just checking.

[Desperado]

Why people leave Oscar out of their top ten amazes me

Oscar led his team to 50+ wins once in his career. That alone should eliminate him from serious top 10 discussion.

Also as much as you and other people like to b!tch about Kobe being the 2nd option to Shaq for his first 3 titles as the reason they don't have Kobe in their top 10 but Oscar only won 1 ring as arguably the 3d option on a team led by Kareem.

I'm assuming the only reason people have him in top 10 discussion is because of stats which aren't even that amazing if you adjust the pace to today's game.

[cheapjerseysell]

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[dyna]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Bird
5. Russell
6. Magic
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Hakeem
10. Kobe
11. Jerry West
12. Oscar Robertson
13. Moses Malone
14. Elgin Baylor
15. Julius Erving

[AirJordan&Magic]

Kobe's not entering the Top 6. 7 is as high as he'll go. Gasol, on the other hand, will climb the ranks if they three-peat. He'll probably finish his career in the Top 25-30 if he's not there already.

You do not actually believe this nonsense do you?

There are still guys that foolishly think Scottie Pippen should not be regarded as a top 50 player of all time.
And now you are going to tell insinuate Gasol is a top 25-30 player of all time??! Get out of here!....Gasol is nowhere near the top 70.

[MasterDurant24]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Bird
5. Russell
6. Magic
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Hakeem
10. Kobe
11. Jerry West
12. Oscar Robertson
13. Moses Malone
14. Elgin Baylor
15. Julius Erving
Switch Moses with West and there's my top 15.

[Round Mound]

Id rather watch them play and see the impact per game, how efficient they are, how much offensive attention they cause, how much defensive presence they create and how fluyent the game creating capacity is. EFF; PER and Statistical Plus/Minus is what is closer to what happened on court and that considently = to my All Time Top 10 Players: regarding ofcourse the level of players each player played with or level of teams they faced.

[Desperado]

Id rather watch them play and see the impact per game, how efficient they are, how much offensive attention they cause, how much defensive presence they create and how fluyent the game creating capacity is. EFF; PER and Statistical Plus/Minus is what is closer to what happened on court and that considently = to my All Time Top 10 Players: regarding ofcourse the level of players each player played with or level of teams they faced.

Welcome back Sir Charles aka CB34GOATPF.

[magnax1]

that's just your opinion buddy, btw bottom line is that Lakers have 7 players on the top 15 list.
It may be an opinion, but an opinion can be illogical, and having Magic above those four makes no sense at all, and I don't think I've seen anyone other then Laker fans do it. Just like Having Kobe above #9

[Desperado]

Oscar led his team to 50+ wins once in his career. That alone should eliminate him from serious top 10 discussion.

Also as much as you and other people like to b!tch about Kobe being the 2nd option to Shaq for his first 3 titles as the reason they don't have Kobe in their top 10 but Oscar only won 1 ring as arguably the 3d option on a team led by Kareem.

I'm assuming the only reason people have him in top 10 discussion is because of stats which aren't even that amazing if you adjust the pace to today's game.


I also wanna say that Kobe may have been treated as a 2nd option but his skill level was far beyond that of a 2nd option. Shaq was a 7'1 380 pound dominating force and the triangle was runnig through the center so of course he was the main cog but they were both great enough to be the alpha dog and we even seen situation unfold were they toke turns taking over as the alpha dog in the playoffs during the 3-peat. It came to a point though that one guy wanted to be the alpha dog so bad that they ended splitting up. In all actuality it was a 1a/1b situation....Co-MVPs

Also Kobe would have most likely been the main man on any other team in the league back then without Shaq so him being the ''2nd option'' shouldn't be used against him because he was the greatest 2nd option ever and even Michael Jordan said to Kobe that he wouldn't have been able to play with Shaq! Wish I could find that article.....

[IInvented]

well of course you don't agree b/c you're a Kobe nut hugger

[Timmy D for MVP]

I have Kobe borderline: 10/11

MJ
Kareem
Wilt
Russell
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem
Kobe/Oscar
Oscar/Kobe
Moses Malone
Jerry West
Elgin Baylor
Bob Pettit/Dr. J

[Andrei89]

well of course you don't agree b/c you're a Kobe nut hugger


lol i herd it before

dunno why it made me chuckle:lol

[Lebron23]

I have Kobe borderline: 10/11

MJ
Kareem
Wilt
Russell
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem
Kobe/Oscar
Oscar/Kobe
Moses Malone
Jerry West
Elgin Baylor
Bob Pettit/Dr. J

I agree with your post.

[Desperado]

I have Kobe borderline: 10/11

MJ
Kareem
Wilt
Russell
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem
Kobe/Oscar
Oscar/Kobe
Moses Malone
Jerry West
Elgin Baylor
Bob Pettit/Dr. J



Oscar barley has a case over David Robinson and Karl Malone.

It's hilarious people put him on the same level as Kobe, Moses or even Dr. J.

[jlauber]

Oscar barley has a case over David Robinson and Karl Malone.

It's hilarious people put him on the same level as Kobe, Moses or even Dr. J.

I enjoy reading many of your posts. You are very knowledgeable, especially in arguing for Kobe's place in NBA history.

BUT, I can't agree with you on your take on Oscar. Let me ask you this, how many championships would Kobe have won with his 05-06 Lakers? Or Jordan with the '85-86 Bulls?

Because that is what Oscar had to work with for most of his career. Not only that, but like Jordan in '86, the "Big O" was up against one of the greatest dynasty teams in NBA history. It was simply unfair to expect Robertson to lead mediocre teams to titles, especially in the era of the great Celtic Dynasty.

I also found it interesting that Oscar, well past his prime, was a key reason that Milwaukee won the title in '70-71. How important was Robertson to those Buck teams. They won 66, 63, 60, and 59 games with him. He retired after that last season (a game seven loss to the Celtics in the Finals), and the Bucks collapsed the next season...finishing at 38-44.

Oscar was, quite simply, one of the greatest all-around players to have ever played in the NBA. There was nothing he could not do well on the offensive end. Furthermore, those that use his era against him, had better realize that NO ONE else has EVER had a triple-double season. Not only that, but he nearly had FOUR of them. Magic came close in the '81-82 season (one of the greatest non-winning MVP seasons in NBA history BTW.) And, when you factor in that Oscar was getting 11-12 apg, AND scoring 30 ppg (on 50% shooting in an era of .440 shooting), his numbers take a completely different perspective.

IMHO, Oscar has a STRONG case for a top-10 all-time. Had he played with
quality supporting casts, like virtually every other Top-10 player did for much of their careers, he most certainly would have won more than one ring.

[gleden]

Wilt Chamberlain says hi.

Kareem says hi.

Russel says hi.


Kobe played with one of the many great centers in histroy. Shaq played with the best SG in history, equal or second to MJ.


:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Desperado]

I enjoy reading many of your posts. You are very knowledgeable, especially in arguing for Kobe's place in NBA history.

BUT, I can't agree with you on your take on Oscar. Let me ask you this, how many championships would Kobe have won with his 05-06 Lakers? Or Jordan with the '85-86 Bulls?

Because that is what Oscar had to work with for most of his career. Not only that, but like Jordan in '86, the "Big O" was up against one of the greatest dynasty teams in NBA history. It was simply unfair to expect Robertson to lead mediocre teams to titles, especially in the era of the great Celtic Dynasty.

I also found it interesting that Oscar, well past his prime, was a key reason that Milwaukee won the title in '70-71. How important was Robertson to those Buck teams. They won 66, 63, 60, and 59 games with him. He retired after that last season (a game seven loss to the Celtics in the Finals), and the Bucks collapsed the next season...finishing at 38-44.

Oscar was, quite simply, one of the greatest all-around players to have ever played in the NBA. There was nothing he could not do well on the offensive end. Furthermore, those that use his era against him, had better realize that NO ONE else has EVER had a triple-double season. Not only that, but he nearly had FOUR of them. Magic came close in the '81-82 season (one of the greatest non-winning MVP seasons in NBA history BTW.) And, when you factor in that Oscar was getting 11-12 apg, AND scoring 30 ppg (on 50% shooting in an era of .440 shooting), his numbers take a completely different perspective.

IMHO, Oscar has a STRONG case for a top-10 all-time. Had he played with
quality supporting casts, like virtually every other Top-10 player did for much of their careers, he most certainly would have won more than one ring.

Oscar was a great player but I just don't know why he should be included in top 10 lists. Top 15-20 is more appropriate.

Also you can't tell me he didn't haven help when he was playing with hall of fame players Jack Twyman, Jerry Lucas and even a 5x all-star Wayne Embry and then Kareem in Milwaukee. Comparing the teams he played to to the 2006 Lakers is a joke. LA had a staring line up of Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Lamar Odom and Luke Walton. Were are those guys now?:lol

It's not just that he didn't win a championship as the best player it's more that he didn't have much team success in general.



Also you forgot to mention in '75 the Bucks lost Lucius Allen and Kareem missed 17 games.

[laker24]

1. Magic
2. Jordan
3. Kareem
4. Kobe
5. Russel
6. Wilt
7. Bird
8. Hakeem
9. Shaq
10. Duncan
11. Oscar Robertson
12. West
13.Baylor
14. M. malone
15. Julius Erving

[Calabis]

Who on this top 10 is Oscar better than or has an argument for?:confusedshrug:

He's better than Kobe at this point

[That1Dude07]

Chuck anyone?

[FCN]

1. Magic
2. Jordan
3. Kareem
4. Kobe
5. Russel
6. Wilt
7. Bird
8. Hakeem
9. Shaq
10. Duncan
11. Oscar Robertson
12. West
13.Baylor
14. M. malone
15. Julius Erving

:oldlol:

[justin43]

Oscar doesn't belong in the top 10 for the following reasons:

1. Oscar never won as the man. Despite his stats, he was the third option when he won a championship.

2. Oscar didn't have much team success in his career compared to others who legimately belong in the top 10.

3. Everyone else who is in the top 10 has won at least 2 rings as the man on the team. If Oscar is even put in a 10a/10b situation in the top 10 all-time, he would be the only one on the list who hasn't accomplish this feat.:facepalm

Be objective. Don't let your hate for certain players cloud your judgement.:rolleyes:

I am not hating on Oscar, but these are the simple facts. Stats alone, especially after adjustment, won't get you into the top 10. Oscar is in the upper part of the top 15.

As for the other side:

Kobe has no case for top 5 yet. Put him there is . . . :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[SinJackal]

I have Kobe borderline: 10/11

MJ
Kareem
Wilt
Russell
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem
Kobe/Oscar
Oscar/Kobe
Moses Malone
Jerry West
Elgin Baylor
Bob Pettit/Dr. J

Nice list. Probably the most accurate one I've seen on here yet.

[justin43]

Kobe never won 2 championships as the man on his team. Last year it was Gasol....he had a better PER in the regular season and more win shares in the playoffs. I do agree with you though that Oscar isnt top 10

I hope you trolling.:facepalm PER and win shares. :roll: :roll: :roll:

I won't argue with you through since you agree on Oscar at least.:banana:

[MasterDurant24]

I hope you trolling.:facepalm PER and win shares. :roll: :roll: :roll:

I won't argue with you through since you agree on Oscar at least.:banana:
The guy has Bill Russell at #96, thinks Chris Paul is the best PG of all time, and that LeBron James is the 2nd best player of all time. I would never trust his judgement.

[jlauber]

The guy has Bill Russell at #96, thinks Chris Paul is the best PG of all time, and that LeBron James is the 2nd best player of all time. I would never trust his judgement.

:applause:

THAT was the guy! Anyone that has Russell ranked 96th should automatically be disqualified in these opinion polls.

[Calabis]

Oscar doesn't belong in the top 10 for the following reasons:


1. Oscar never won as the man. Despite his stats, he was the third option when he won a championship.
He was playing against the Sixers and Celtics and none of the teams he had could **** with them(although he did beat Wilt in the playoffs). As far as third option...lmao, he sacrificed his offense and led the Bucks to multiple 60 win seasons, when he left they only won 38 games. Also in closeout game he scored 30 points to lead Milwaukee.


2. Oscar didn't have much team success in his career compared to others who legimately belong in the top 10. Because the league was much deeper as far as talent on one team, its unfortunate that his was less superior then the Celtics and Sixers at that time


3. Everyone else who is in the top 10 has won at least 2 rings as the man on the team. If Oscar is even put in a 10a/10b situation in the top 10 all-time, he would be the only one on the list who hasn't accomplish this feat.:facepalm Yes they have won more rings, yet none of them have avg a triple double for a season, nor did any of them do this type of shit.His first five seasons are strung together, Robertson averaged a triple-double over these 400+ games, averaging an incredible 30.3 points, 10.4 rebounds and 10.6 assists.


Be objective. Don't let your hate for certain players cloud your judgement.:rolleyes:
Jerry West said he was the best player he played against. Red Auerbach summed up Robertson: "He's so great he scares me. He can beat you all by himself and usually does."


I am not hating on Oscar, but these are the simple facts. Stats alone, especially after adjustment, won't get you into the top 10. Oscar is in the upper part of the top 15. Easily top ten in my opinion, in 2003 Slam Magazine did a ranking of players, he was #3 all time as of 2009 they have him ranked #5

As for the other side:

Kobe has no case for top 5 yet. Put him there is . . . :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Said Barry: “People just don’t have any idea how good Oscar was. They don’t understand. The numbers are ridiculous. If there’s anybody in the game of basketball who has been overlooked in terms of his greatness, it’s been Oscar. No doubt about it.

“In his case, numbers don’t lie. If you’re getting 30 points or 20-something points and getting double-figures in rebounds as a point guard and 10 assists a game, that’s sick. For 82 games.

"He was unbelievable and somebody should do a movie about this guy. He is the greatest athlete in the history of sports in this country who has been overlooked. Look at LeBron (James) and his numbers. But they pale in comparison to what Oscar did for so many seasons

Jabbar: "I was very aware of Oscar's overall excellence," Abdul-Jabbar said, remembering the trade that brought Robertson to Milwaukee from Cincinnati. "I just didn't know how he'd fit in with our team. I should have known better. There was nothing to be apprehensive about. He was a great overall player and a great leader. He pushed us. He'd get on our case if we didn't do our assignments. Having that kind of leadership is a key element to any team."

"I think Oscar was really special because of his ability to do so many different aspects of the game well," Abdul-Jabbar said. "There are very few people who have the ability to score, set people up to score, rebound and defend. He was a complete player."

[Psileas]

The guy has Bill Russell at #96, thinks Chris Paul is the best PG of all time, and that LeBron James is the 2nd best player of all time. I would never trust his judgement.

That's where you get when you base your judgment on PER.
Russell 96th. Yeah, maybe in 2000-3000 years from now there will have existed around 95 players to exceed his legacy.

Paul over Magic because Magic was not a 3-point shooter? I bet Paul would easily trade this for Magic's rings. And I guess that, going by that, Kobe Bryant must be greater than Jordan because of the same reason (after all, 3-pointers are more important in the SG position).

[Simple Jack]

That's where you get when you base your judgment on PER.
Russell 96th. Yeah, maybe in 2000-3000 years from now there will have existed around 95 players to exceed his legacy.

Paul over Magic because Magic was not a 3-point shooter? I bet Paul would easily trade this for Magic's rings. And I guess that, going by that, Kobe Bryant must be greater than Jordan because of the same reason (after all, 3-pointers are more important in the SG position).

While I don't agree, it's unfair to pass judgement on Paul when he didn't have the luxury of playing along side arguably the 2nd greatest player of all-time. Who knows where we'd rank Paul if he played alongside Kareem/Cooper/Worthy etc...Individually, he's playing right up there with all-time greats at the position.

[jlauber]

While I don't agree, it's unfair to pass judgement on Paul when he didn't have the luxury of playing along side arguably the 2nd greatest player of all-time. Who knows where we'd rank Paul if he played alongside Kareem/Cooper/Worthy etc...Individually, he's playing right up there with all-time greats at the position.

I'm sorry to disagree with you then. I have posted the records before, but they bear worth repeating. LA, with Kareem, and BEFORE Magic...47-35. WITH Magic, an IMMEDIATE title, thanks in large part to Magic's game six (withOUT Kareem BTW) in the Finals, in which he put up a 42-15 game. During Magic's tenure, the Lakers AVERAGED 59 wins per season in his 12 years. They went to NINE Finals, and won FIVE titles (and a play, here-or-there, or had Magic or Worthy not been injured...and they could have won EIGHT.) Furthermore, after YOUR GOAT #2 retired, Magic led LA to an even better record the next season (from 57-25 to 63-19), and a year after that (basically Magic's last), LA went to the Finals. Then, AFTER Magic retired, the Lakers fell to 43-39...or about what they were BEFORE he arrived.

Magic had some HUGE post-seasons and Finals, as well. There is simply NO comparison between Paul and Magic. Magic has a case for an all-time GOAT. Paul may NEVER even be considered a top-20 player.

[Simple Jack]

I'm sorry to disagree with you then. I have posted the records before, but they bear worth repeating. LA, with Kareem, and BEFORE Magic...47-35. WITH Magic, an IMMEDIATE title, thanks in large part to Magic's game six (withOUT Kareem BTW) in the Finals, in which he put up a 42-15 game. During Magic's tenure, the Lakers AVERAGED 59 wins per season in his 12 years. They went to NINE Finals, and won FIVE titles (and a play, here-or-there, or had Magic or Worthy not been injured...and they could have won EIGHT.) Furthermore, after YOUR GOAT #2 retired, Magic led LA to an even better record the next season (from 57-25 to 63-19), and a year after that (basically Magic's last), LA went to the Finals. Then, AFTER Magic retired, the Lakers fell to 43-39...or about what they were BEFORE he arrived.

Magic had some HUGE post-seasons and Finals, as well. There is simply NO comparison between Paul and Magic. Magic has a case for an all-time GOAT. Paul may NEVER even be considered a top-20 player.

No one is denying that Magic wasn't an extremely valuable asset to that team. I didn't mean for my post to take away from his accomplishments if that's how you took it; what I was trying to say is that, we tend to rate players based on how their teams plays. If we are going to do that, we need to take an in-depth look at their respective teams in addition to whatever else we may normally look at. I don't think you, or anyone would disagree that Magic had a better team than Chris Paul for his career; in fact, there's a huge separation in talent between the two teams.

In any event, didn't Kareem play extremely well prior to Magic having that incredible game 6?

I think a better comparison between the two players would be to discuss each of them individually, including playoff performances, rather than using rings. All incorporated, this is why Magic is better.

[jlauber]

No one is denying that Magic wasn't an extremely valuable asset to that team. I didn't mean for my post to take away from his accomplishments if that's how you took it; what I was trying to say is that, we tend to rate players based on how their teams plays. If we are going to do that, we need to take an in-depth look at their respective teams in addition to whatever else we may normally look at. I don't think you, or anyone would disagree that Magic had a better team than Chris Paul for his career; in fact, there's a huge separation in talent between the two teams.

In any event, didn't Kareem play extremely well prior to Magic having that incredible game 6?

I think a better comparison between the two players would be to discuss each of them individually, including playoff performances, rather than using rings. All incorporated, this is why Magic is better.

Sorry for my response. I have just been reading so many threads and posts here which try to diminish Magic's career.

Obviously, Magic played with superior personnel. But, he also played in a decade that was arguably the most talented in NBA history. In any case, Paul is certainly a great PG. I would have loved to have seen him go to Orlando and be paired up with Howard. I think those two could have given "Team Diva" a run for their money.