Who is the greatest clutch player of all time?

[griffmoney2084]

this guy

Dec. 27, 1999: Lakers 108 - Mavericks 106 (game-winning FTs w/ 8.6 secs)
May 09, 1999: Lakers 101 - Rockets 100 (PO, game-winning FTs w/ 5.3 secs)
May 10, 2000: Lakers 97 - Phoenix 96 (PO, jumper over Jason Kidd w/ 2.6 secs)
Feb. 07, 2001: Lakers 85 - Phoenix 83 (jumper over Shawn Marion w/ 2.7 sec)
Feb. 13, 2001: Lakers 113 - Nets 110 (OT layup/and-1 w/ 4.8 secs)
Jan. 02, 2002: Lakers 87 - Nuggets 86 (off-reb and jumper w/ 55 secs)
Feb. 22, 2002: Lakers 96 - Hornets 94 (buzzer-beater, jumper over George Lynch)
May 12, 2002: Lakers 87 - Spurs 85 (PO, off-reb and put-back w/ 5.1 secs)
Dec. 06, 2002: Lakers 105 - Mavericks 103 (turn-around jumper w/ 8 secs)
April 04, 2003: Lakers 102 - Grizzlies 101 (buzzer beater, jumper over Shane Battier)
April 06, 2003: Lakers 115 - Suns 113 (OT, game-tying jumper for OT, jumper over Shawn Marion w/ 28.6 sec)
Dec. 19, 2003: Lakers 101 - Nuggets 99 (buzzer-beater, fade-away over Jon Barry)
Feb. 17, 2004: Lakers 89 - Blazers 86 (left-handed layup w/ 31.8 secs + FT)
Mar. 21, 2004: Lakers 104 - Bucks 103 (OT jumper over Keith Van Horn w/ 25.1 sec)
April 14, 2004: Lakers 105 - Blazers 104 (OT buzzer beater, game-tying 3-pointer for OT, fall-away 3-pointer)
Mar. 12, 2005: Lakers 117 - Bobcats 116 (jumper over Keith Bogans w/ 0.9 secs)
Nov. 02, 2005: Lakers 99 - Nuggets 97 (OT jumper over Ed Najera w/ 0.6 secs)
Dec. 04, 2005: Lakers 99 - Bobcats 98 (game-winning FTs w/ 7 secs)
Jan. 12, 2006: Lakers 99 - Cavaliers 98 (jumper over LeBron James w/ 8.6 secs)
April 30, 2006: Lakers 99 - Suns 98 (PO, OT buzzer-beater, game-tying tear-drop for OT, jumper over Boris Diaw)
Jan. 14, 2008: Lakers 123 - Sonics 121 (OT jumper over Jeff Green w/ 4.3 secs)
Jan. 09, 2009: Lakers 121 - Pacers 119 (jumper over Jarrett Jack w/ 3 secs)
Dec. 04, 2009: Lakers 108 - Heat 107 (buzzer-beater, 3-pointer over Dwyane Wade)
Dec. 16, 2009: Lakers 107 - Bucks 106 (OT buzzer-beater, jumper over Charlie Bell)
Jan. 01, 2010: Lakers 109 - Kings 108 (buzzer-beater, 3-pointer)
Jan. 31, 2010: Lakers 90 - Celtics 89 (jumper over Ray Allen w/ 7.3 secs)
Feb. 23, 2010: Lakers 99 - Grizzlies 98 (3-pointer over Rudy Gay w/ 4.3 secs)
Mar. 9, 2010: Lakers 109 - Raptors 107 (jumper over Antoine Wright w/ 1.9 secs)


or the other guy

Nov. 11, 1984: Bulls 118 - Pacers 116 (jumper with 4 secs)
Dec. 7, 1984: Bulls 95 - Knicks 93 (jumper w/ 5 secs)
Mar. 26, 1985: Bulls 120 - Pacers 119 (game-winning FT's with 5 secs)
Apr. 24, 1985: Bulls 109 - Bucks 107 (PO, jumper with 22 secs)
Oct. 25, 1985: Bulls 116 - Cavaliers 115 (game-winning FT, makes 1-2 FT)
Nov. 11, 1986: Bulls 112 - Hawks 110 (layup with 9 secs)
Nov. 21, 1986: Bulls 101 - Knicks 99 (jumper with 1 sec)
Feb. 12, 1988: Bulls 95 - Bucks 93 (game-winning FT's with 2 secs)
Apr. 3, 1988: Bulls 112 - Pistons 110 (game-winning Ft's with 4 secs)
Apr. 15, 1988: Bulls 100 - Nets 99 (jumper with 20 secs)
Feb. 16, 1989: Bulls 117 - Bucks 116 (jumper with 1 sec)
May 7, 1989: Bulls 101 - Cavaliers 100 (PO, buzzer-beater jumper over Craig Ehlo)
May 19, 1989: Bulls 113 - Knicks 111 (PO, game-winning FT's with 4 secs)
May 27, 1989: Bulls 99 - Pistons 97 (PO, jumper with 3 secs)
Nov. 13, 1990: Bulls 84 - Jazz 82 (buzzer-beater over Thurl Bailey)
Jan. 22, 1992: Bulls 115 - Hornets 112 (layup and-1)
Nov. 11, 1992: Bulls 98 - Pistons 96 (buzzer-beater 3-pointer)
May 17, 1993: Bulls 103 - Cavaliers 101 (buzzer-beater jumper over Gerald Wilkins)
Mar. 25, 1995: Bulls 99 - Hawks 98 (buzzer-beater over Steve Smith)
Feb. 11, 1997: Bulls 103 - Hornets 100 (buzzer-beater 3-pointer)
Mar. 18, 1997: Bulls 89 - Sonics 87 (OT, game-winning FT's)
Jun. 1, 1997: Bulls 84 - Jazz 82 (PO, buzzer-beater jumper)
Feb. 13, 1998: Bulls 112 - Hawks 110 (buzzer beater jumper over Chucky Brown)
Mar. 22, 1998: Bulls 102 - Raptors 100 (fade-away with 5 secs)
Jun. 14, 1998: Bulls 87 - Jazz 86 (PO, jumper with 5.2 secs)
Jan. 21, 2002: Wizards 93 - Cavaliers 92 (buzzer-beater jumper)
Feb. 15, 2002: Wizards 97 - Suns 96 (jumper over Shawn Marion with 0.2 secs)

[Kurosawa0]

Second guy

[jlauber]

I'll take Russell in a game seven.

[griffmoney2084]

I'll take Russell in a game seven.

kobe with his afro was as tall as bill russell

eff the 60's

[opps]

Of my time ...Kobe. not even close

[jlauber]

kobe with his afro was as tall as bill russell

eff the 60's

You asked who was the greatest clutch player of ALL-TIME.

Russell's teams went 11-0 in game seven's, and he averaged 18 ppg and 29 rpg in those game sevens.

[MasterDurant24]

kobe with his afro was as tall as bill russell

eff the 60's
Wow.

[Rendezvous32]

I'll go with Bill Russell, and I'll take him because of how this guy was guaranteed to get the job done everytime it mattered the most. He never lost a Game 7 ever in his NBA career, he won 11 championships out of his 13 year career, and like I said, he just got the job done. Score, Rebound, Defend, Pass, etc. he would do it when you needed him to do it.

[MasterDurant24]

Jordan or Russell. Then I'll take Kareem.

[jlauber]

What's your definition of clutch? And of ALL-TIME?

Many fans believe that John Elway was "clutch." Take a closer look. Remember "the Drive?" Before that famous TYING drive...he was 14-27 for 115 yards. How about in his first SB? One of the worst QB ratings of all-time.

Johnny Unitas? He was AWFUL in his BIG games in the 60's, including BOTH BIG Regular season games (like 1965 game against GB or 1967 season-ending game against the Rams) and championship games like the '64 NFL title game, or the '68 SB. Even in a SB win in '71 he was benched after halftime

Take a look at those two in the post-season. Their QB ratings were AWFUL.

I would take Bart Starr over either of them in heartbeat.

[usdmef9]

Reggie Miller all day

[opps]

He never lost a Game 7 ever in his NBA career, he won 11 championships out of his 13 year career, and like I said, he just got the job done. Score, Rebound, Defend, Pass, etc. he would do it when you needed him to do it.

Has Kobe ever lost a Game 7? this is a serious question

[jlauber]

I'm a Kobe fan...BUT, how has he done in the post-season compared to Jordan?

Just showing a player hitting a game-winning shot does not make them a "clutch" player. I would be more interested in how they did for an ENTIRE game...especially in a BIG game.

[nbacardDOTnet]

Reggie Miller all day

Big Shot Rob says "Hello"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHkArsWPZbg

[che guevara]

Has Kobe ever lost a Game 7? this is a serious question
Uh, yes? 2006 vs. the Suns.

[Crystallas]

The greatest clutch guy, is the guy who isn't in clutch situations, and just wins damn games.

[jlauber]

Big Shot Rob says "Hello"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHkArsWPZbg

Now you are talking. BIG games, and BIG shots. Same with Derek Fisher.

[Rendezvous32]

Has Kobe ever lost a Game 7? this is a serious question
I'm a huge Kobe fan, and the answer is Yes. Remember in the 2006 NBA Playoffs when the Suns were down 1-3 in the first 4 games of the series? Kobe and the Lakers lost 3 straight games, and that includes Kobe losing in the Game 7. So the answer is Yes.

[opps]

I'm a Kobe fan...BUT, how has he done in the post-season compared to Jordan?

Just showing a player hitting a game-winning shot does not make them a "clutch" player. I would be more interested in how they did for an ENTIRE game...especially in a BIG game.

Well the most recent one that comes to mind is Game 6 vs Suns. Even Gentry said it was MJ like

[tpols]

Total Game Winners:

Kobe- 29
Jordan- 27

Total Jumpers Made to Win in Last 10 Seconds

Kobe- 20
Jordan- 19

And kobe still has a lot more to come...

[jlauber]

Well the most recent one that comes to mind is Game 6 vs Suns. Even Gentry said it was MJ like

I'm not saying that Kobe hasn't been "clutch", but the greatest clutch player of ALL-TIME?

I want a player who takes over a critical game, in a BIG game, and leads his team to a win. No one was better than Russell, although MJ would be the next logical pick.

[nbacardDOTnet]

Now you are talking. BIG games, and BIG shots. Same with Derek Fisher.

Fisher is a nice player.

But not even close.

Watch that top 10 video. all of them were from POs.

Of course, there were luck (with great C Players and teams) but getting 7 rings is not joke.

[opps]

I'm a huge Kobe fan, and the answer is Yes. Remember in the 2006 NBA Playoffs when the Suns were down 1-3 in the first 4 games of the series? Kobe and the Lakers lost 3 straight games, and that includes Kobe losing in the Game 7. So the answer is Yes.

Oh yeah but even getting to that point was clutch :lol

Game 4 was an epic performance with 2 clutch shots.
& he had the clutch dunk over Nash in Game 2

[TheLogo]

Give me Kobe than anyone else.

[jlauber]

Total Game Winners:

Kobe- 29
Jordan- 27

Total Jumpers Made to Win in Last 10 Seconds

Kobe- 20
Jordan- 19

And kobe still has a lot more to come...

The problem with these stats are two-fold. One, how many shots did these guys MISS in these situations? And more importantly, how many game winners did they hit in BIG games (i.e.... pivotal playoff games)?

[TheLogo]

The problem with these stats are two-fold. One, how many shots did these guys MISS in these situations? And more importantly, how many game winners did they hit in BIG games (i.e.... pivotal playoff games)?

Give me Kobe still.

Especially this past season, the media tried not to bring it up because it would have overshadow Lebron, was that Kobe hit a lot of game winners. Easily would have been MVP.

[New York Knicks]

Yeah, Kobe's impressive 30% shooting in clutch situations lol. That's who you want taking the last shot?

[tpols]

The problem with these stats are two-fold. One, how many shots did these guys MISS in these situations? And more importantly, how many game winners did they hit in BIG games (i.e.... pivotal playoff games)?
Kobe and MJ have always been the ones on their teams to take the last shot. MJ has been around longer than kobe but kobe has made more clutch shots. This doesn't make him a clutcher player but it shows he is pretty clutch.

[jlauber]

Fisher is a nice player.

But not even close.

Watch that top 10 video. all of them were from POs.

Of course, there were luck (with great C Players and teams) but getting 7 rings is not joke.

Oh, I agree 100%. BUT, Fisher certainly has been a "clutch" player as well. Still, IMHO, "clutch" entails more than just hitting a game-winning shot. Basketball is a 48 minute game. And some games are much bigger than others. If a player either hits a game winner in a mid-season game, does that have the same importance over a player who hits a game-winner in a critical playoff game like Horry did in game four of the '02 WCF's (either a 3-1 series deficit, or a 2-2 series tie)?

[PistolPete]

John Stockton

[usdmef9]

Big Shot Rob says "Hello"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHkArsWPZbg

Jordan and the knicks would have given millions to have Horry on the pacers back in the day instead of Reggie, you gotta be kidding.

[jlauber]

Jordan and the knicks would have given millions to have Horry on the pacers back in the day instead of Reggie, you gotta be kidding.

His point was well taken, though. If we are going by hitting game-winning shots, in the final seconds, and in BIG games...Horry has to rank among the greatest ever.

Once again, though..."clutch" should entail far more than hitting a game-winning shot. Russell epitomized BIG TIME play. In a close game seven of the '62 Finals, he put up a 30-40 game. Now, THAT is "clutch."

[ProfessorMurder]

Seriously, someone should find out how many game winning shots Kobe and Jordan missed.

[TheLogo]

Seriously, someone should find out how many game winning shots Kobe and Jordan missed.

I don't think they would keep those stats.

If Kobe or MJ went 0-10 in last second shots.....I would still let them take the next one. These 2 are legends of the game.

[Simple Jack]

Total Game Winners:

Kobe- 29
Jordan- 27

Total Jumpers Made to Win in Last 10 Seconds

Kobe- 20
Jordan- 19

And kobe still has a lot more to come...

Not only is percentage/attempted a huge part when applying context to these things, but someone made a post addressing Jordan's list and how they were missing specific games, mostly in the playoffs.

[griffmoney2084]

Not only is percentage/attempted a huge part when applying context to these things, but someone made a post addressing Jordan's list and how they were missing specific games, mostly in the playoffs.


whats funny is that this tool im quoting has an avatar that makes fun of kobes smile

only a homo would care what another dude looks like

[opps]

Seriously, someone should find out how many game winning shots Kobe and Jordan missed.

It doesnt matter most players dont have the gut to take the shot period & the fact that they still have a reputation of being clutch speaks volumes.

[Kurosawa0]

only a homo would care what another dude looks like

Maybe he is homosexual. Nothing wrong with it.

[Batz]

Larry Bird.

[griffmoney2084]

Maybe he is homosexual. Nothing wrong with it.


yes there is

ultimate warrior said so

[jlauber]

Of course, another answer could be the original "clutch" player...

"Mr. Clutch" himself...Jerry West.

[griffmoney2084]

Of course, another answer could be the original "clutch" player...

"Mr. Clutch" himself...Jerry West.


he got that name for making a full court game tie'ing shot

other than that hes 1 for 8 in nba finals, not verry good in clutch moments IMO

[TheLogo]

Of course, another answer could be the original "clutch" player...

"Mr. Clutch" himself...Jerry West.

I agree but then came along MJ to surpass him and then came Kobe to surpass both.

Like I said, I would give it to Kobe.

[jlauber]

Larry Bird.

Or, ...Magic.

[Desperado]

Maybe he is homosexual. Nothing wrong with it.

How come before 1973 homosexuality was classified as a mental disorder?

Just watch years from now pedophilia, incest, bestiality etc. are going to be okay.

[ThaRegul8r]

Of course, another answer could be the original "clutch" player...

"Mr. Clutch" himself...Jerry West.

he got that name for making a full court game tie'ing shot

Had the three-pointer existed, it would have won the game. It was unfortunate for him that it didn't, as he is one of the players who would have benefited from it.

[Desperado]

he got that name for making a full court game tie'ing shot

other than that hes 1 for 8 in nba finals, not verry good in clutch moments IMO


For real.

Should Devin Harris be ''Mr. Clutch'' because of this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKcFZvqEXjM

[opps]

How come before 1973 homosexuality was classified as a mental disorder?

Just watch years from now pedophilia, incest, bestiality etc. are going to be okay.

WOW!! Being gay is not nearly as bad as those things. Being black was consider horrible too ...people arent always right

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Coin toss..... Kobe/Jordan

They both have the skills, the confidence and the balls to take and make an impossible shot for the win. They demand the ball and expect it to go in every time. Other players fear these guys.

[jlauber]

he got that name for making a full court game tie'ing shot

other than that hes 1 for 8 in nba finals, not verry good in clutch moments IMO

Well, he won a Finals MVP on a LOSING team. All he did in that series was averaged 38 ppg, and in that game seven, two-point loss, he scored 42 pts.

How about his 64-65 post season? In 11 games he averaged 40.6 ppg (yes, 40.6 ppg), including 34 ppg in the Finals.

In the '65-66 Finals he averaged 34 ppg, and in another game seven, two-point loss, he scored 36 pts.

In his post-season CAREER he averaged 29.1 ppg.

[ThaRegul8r]

he got that name for making a full court game tie'ing shot

other than that hes 1 for 8 in nba finals, not verry good in clutch moments IMO

Since people are listing game-winning shots:

1962 NBA Finals, Game 3 — West stole Sam Jones’ inbounds pass to Bob Cousy at midcourt with three seconds left and scored on a layup at the buzzer to give LA a 117-115 win and a 2-1 series lead.

April 2, 1963 — West stole the ball with three seconds left and hit a 20-footer to give the Lakers a 101-99 win over the Hawks.

Game 3, 1963 Eastern Division Finals against St. Louis — West “stole a Hawk pass in the dying seconds […], dribbled into scoring range and swished the ball for the deciding basket” for a 101-99 win.

March 3, 1965 — West hit a 20-foot jumper at the buzzer to give the Lakers a come-from-behind 104-102 win over the Celtics at Boston after trailing by 16 in the first half.

January 18, 1967 — West hit a 22-footer at the buzzer to send the game into overtime against the Hawks.

December 26, 1968 — West hit the game-winner with 10 seconds left for a 95-94 win over Detroit.

February 15, 1970 — West hit a 20-footer with six seconds left, then blocked a shot by Jon McGlocklin to give LA a 98-96 win over Milwaukee. West had a game-high 28 points. This came off a 43-point performance against San Francisco and 42 against Atlanta.

1972 All-Star Game, January 18, 1972 — West hit a 20-foot jumper with one second left to give the West a 112-110 win. West was All-Star Game MVP with 13 points—seven in the fourth quarter—on 6-for-9 shooting, six rebounds, five assists and six steals in 27 minutes.

March 24, 1972 — West hit a 15-foot jumper with two seconds left to give LA a 112-110 win over the Phoenix Suns for their 68th victory of the season.

Game 3, 1972 NBA Finals vs. New York, April 29, 1970 — West hits a 55-footer at the buzzer to tie it 103-103 at the end of regulation and send it into overtime. Today it would have been a game-winning three-pointer.

Game 1, 1973 Western Conference Finals, April 18, 1973 — West hit a 15-foot jumper with eight seconds left for a 101-99 win over Golden State.

December 19, 1973 — West hit a 25-foot jumper at the buzzer to give the Lakers a 109-107 win over Milwaukee.

January 18, 1974 — West, playing in his first game since Dec. 11, hit a 15-foot jumper at the buzzer to give the Lakers a 116-115 win over the Kansas City-Omaha Kings. “There are statistics for just about everything else in basketball but they should invent a new one for Jerry West—games won at the buzzer.”

These are just what I've found so far. All but three are buzzer beaters. All came with 10 seconds or less to play in the game.

[jlauber]

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]Since people are listing game-winning shots:

1962 NBA Finals, Game 3

[zizozain]

Kobe Bryant has the all-time lead for 30-point playoff road games when his team has the chance to clinch.

Kobe Bryant 8
Elgin Baylor 6
Michael Jordan 5
Oscar Robertson 4

[TheLogo]

Kobe Bryant has the all-time lead for 30-point playoff road games when his team has the chance to clinch.

Kobe Bryant 8
Elgin Baylor 6
Michael Jordan 5
Oscar Robertson 4

If that isn't clutch than I don't know what is.

[TheLogo]

:bowdown:

If you are going to bowdown to Jerry West's clutch shots, which you should, you would probably be slurping if you saw Kobe's on page 1.

[Desperado]

WOW!! Being gay is not nearly as bad as those things. Being black was consider horrible too ...people arent always right

Our society pretends to have moral principles and moral values.

So the ideas goes like this: If we lower our moral standards, to the point of making it legal (homosexuality being the case in point) which by many its considered a deviation from normal/natural sexual acts then where are we going to set the limits?

[opps]

Our society pretends to have moral principles and moral values.

So the ideas goes like this: If we lower our moral standards, to the point of making it legal (homosexuality being the case in point) which by many its considered a deviation from normal/natural sexual acts then where are we going to set the limits?

Well to me accepting homosexuals is not lowering my moral standards :lol
But thats an arguement for a different time & place

[jlauber]

If you are going to bowdown to Jerry West's clutch shots, which you should, you would probably be slurping if you saw Kobe's on page 1.

I'm not disputing Kobe's, nor MJ's, late game brilliance. But that was some pretty quick and extensive research by Regul8r. And, as he stated, that is what he could find. How many more game winner's did "Mr. Clutch" hit? In any case, his post-season play has to rank among the best ever (despite a 1-8 record in FINALS.)

[ranigma]

Kobe Bryant has the all-time lead for 30-point playoff road games when his team has the chance to clinch.

Kobe Bryant 8
Elgin Baylor 6
Michael Jordan 5
Oscar Robertson 4

Most important stat ever!!!.At least for some Kobe fans.

[ThaRegul8r]

If you are going to bowdown to Jerry West's clutch shots, which you should, you would probably be slurping if you saw Kobe's on page 1.

Those were what I could find in the time I searched upon seeing this thread and reading the posts. That's not to say that's the extent, that's just what I could find in the time that I looked.

Also, looking at the clutch shots of West that I found, there are two buzzer-beaters in the NBA Finals, and two game-winners in the Western Division/Conference Finals, one of those being yet another buzzer-beater.

Perusing Kobe's list on page 1 which you referenced, I find zero clutch shots in the NBA Finals (which are the biggest games of all), and I find zero in the Conference Finals (the series you need to win in order to get to the Finals). I see two Western Conference Semifinals game-winners, and two first-round game-winners.

As a bonus, West also has an All-Star Game buzzer beater when the All-Star Game meant something, rather than being an exhibition.

[jlauber]

Those were what I could find in the time I searched upon seeing this thread and reading the posts. That's not to say that's the extent, that's just what I could find in the time that I looked.

Also, looking at the clutch shots of West that I found, there are two buzzer-beaters in the NBA Finals, and two game-winners in the Western Division/Conference Finals, one of those being yet another buzzer-beater.

Perusing Kobe's list on page 1 which you referenced, I find zero clutch shots in the NBA Finals (which are the biggest games of all), and I find zero in the Conference Finals (the series you need to win in order to get to the Finals). I see two Western Conference Semifinals game-winners, and two first-round game-winners.

The real problem here is that there was no NBA before Jordan. The players that performed before Jordan were small, wimpy, uncoordinated, skinny, white clowns who could not dribble without using both hands at the same time (and they had to keep their eyes on the ball), and they could only shoot open, standing two-handed set shots (and could barely make 30% of those.) The game was played with peach baskets set at eight feet (and no one could dunk back then), and the court was actually 47 ft and played with only one basket.

[plowking]

Reggie Miller all day

Outside of that one series, name me all the Reggie Miller clutch moments.

I want this stupid notion to end. Younger fans who are here to learn are getting completely fooled into thinking Miller was something, when he actually wasn't.

[SuperPippen]

Are you guys seriously trying to measure and compare the effectiveness of 2 players in the clutch with statistics as one-dimensional as the number of game-winning shots they've made?

Bottom line: Both MJ and Kobe were/are great clutch players, but I can think of more times that Kobe has faltered in the clutch than MJ has (6 for 24 in an elimination game, anyone?), although that might be just because his are more recent.

Anyway, give me Russell over both.

[jlauber]

I already mentioned West's "clutch" performances in losing efforts. How about MJ taking a vastly inferior team in the '86 Playoffs, and putting up a 63 point game in an OT loss to the 67-15 Celtics?

[TheLogo]

Are you guys seriously trying to measure and compare the effectiveness of 2 players in the clutch with statistics as one-dimensional as the number of game-winning shots they've made?

Bottom line: Both MJ and Kobe were/are great clutch players, but I can think of more times that Kobe has faltered in the clutch than MJ has (6 for 24 in an elimination game, anyone?), although that might be just because his are more recent.

Anyway, give me Russell over both.

There are a lot of naive people on this board and for you to point out Kobe's 6 for 24 shooting game is inaccurate. If the the team shot drastically better than Kobe, then you would have a case but if you look at the team's shooting, there were many players who shot poorly on the Lakers. It's only exaggerated because he shot more than everyone else.

To say he wasn't clutch because of his shooting is wrong when he played a good game and FG% does not dictate a good or bad game.

15 rebounds?...and the play to setup Artest?

[TheLogo]

I already mentioned West's "clutch" performances in losing efforts. How about MJ taking a vastly inferior team in the '86 Playoffs, and putting up a 63 point game in an OT loss to the 67-15 Celtics?

Loss.

[necya]

you can't just use the number of game winners, there is more clutch play than clutch shots.

then, it would be great to know how many times they have the opportunity to give the win for their team. and i know MJ is way more effective.
and, the celtics of Bird use to win the games before the last minute, so they didn't have the same opportunity to win as many closed games. but Bird should be the most effective in this kind of situation. down 2-3 in the ECSF of 88, after the lost in G5, he just said : "they may have forgotten, but they have no chance" also, he is the only one who has back to back game winners in RS and has done this play on aguirre, drexler, pippen, MJ, barkley...

a journalist (don't remember his name) reported that MJ has given 80 wins to his team in his career, an entire season!

after that, i have to laugh when i see KG hitting a game winner against NYK like kobe against the kings, when the guy has a wide open shot in a game tied...

anyway, MJ, Bird, West, Miller and Kobe are type of players you can count on them to take their responsabilities in decisive moments.

[necya]

There are a lot of naive people on this board and for you to point out Kobe's 6 for 24 shooting game is inaccurate. If the the team shot drastically better than Kobe, then you would have a case but if you look at the team's shooting, there were many players who shot poorly on the Lakers. It's only exaggerated because he shot more than everyone else.

To say he wasn't clutch because of his shooting is wrong when he played a good game and FG% does not dictate a good or bad game.

15 rebounds?...and the play to setup Artest?

of course he had bad games, he is human, don't blame him for that.
the problem of the G7 is he clearly wanted to be the superstar of the game and jacked about 8-10 shots...you can miss a shot, no problem, but don't jack shots to be the mvp that you are not. it's all about intelligent play, and kobe is not good for that.

[HighFlyer23]

the guy who never lost in the Finals especially by 40 pts while being up in an elimination game

[Sarcastic]

this guy

Dec. 27, 1999: Lakers 108 - Mavericks 106 (game-winning FTs w/ 8.6 secs)
May 09, 1999: Lakers 101 - Rockets 100 (PO, game-winning FTs w/ 5.3 secs)
May 10, 2000: Lakers 97 - Phoenix 96 (PO, jumper over Jason Kidd w/ 2.6 secs)
Feb. 07, 2001: Lakers 85 - Phoenix 83 (jumper over Shawn Marion w/ 2.7 sec)
Feb. 13, 2001: Lakers 113 - Nets 110 (OT layup/and-1 w/ 4.8 secs)
Jan. 02, 2002: Lakers 87 - Nuggets 86 (off-reb and jumper w/ 55 secs)
Feb. 22, 2002: Lakers 96 - Hornets 94 (buzzer-beater, jumper over George Lynch)
May 12, 2002: Lakers 87 - Spurs 85 (PO, off-reb and put-back w/ 5.1 secs)
Dec. 06, 2002: Lakers 105 - Mavericks 103 (turn-around jumper w/ 8 secs)
April 04, 2003: Lakers 102 - Grizzlies 101 (buzzer beater, jumper over Shane Battier)
April 06, 2003: Lakers 115 - Suns 113 (OT, game-tying jumper for OT, jumper over Shawn Marion w/ 28.6 sec)
Dec. 19, 2003: Lakers 101 - Nuggets 99 (buzzer-beater, fade-away over Jon Barry)
Feb. 17, 2004: Lakers 89 - Blazers 86 (left-handed layup w/ 31.8 secs + FT)
Mar. 21, 2004: Lakers 104 - Bucks 103 (OT jumper over Keith Van Horn w/ 25.1 sec)
April 14, 2004: Lakers 105 - Blazers 104 (OT buzzer beater, game-tying 3-pointer for OT, fall-away 3-pointer)
Mar. 12, 2005: Lakers 117 - Bobcats 116 (jumper over Keith Bogans w/ 0.9 secs)
Nov. 02, 2005: Lakers 99 - Nuggets 97 (OT jumper over Ed Najera w/ 0.6 secs)
Dec. 04, 2005: Lakers 99 - Bobcats 98 (game-winning FTs w/ 7 secs)
Jan. 12, 2006: Lakers 99 - Cavaliers 98 (jumper over LeBron James w/ 8.6 secs)
April 30, 2006: Lakers 99 - Suns 98 (PO, OT buzzer-beater, game-tying tear-drop for OT, jumper over Boris Diaw)
Jan. 14, 2008: Lakers 123 - Sonics 121 (OT jumper over Jeff Green w/ 4.3 secs)
Jan. 09, 2009: Lakers 121 - Pacers 119 (jumper over Jarrett Jack w/ 3 secs)
Dec. 04, 2009: Lakers 108 - Heat 107 (buzzer-beater, 3-pointer over Dwyane Wade)
Dec. 16, 2009: Lakers 107 - Bucks 106 (OT buzzer-beater, jumper over Charlie Bell)
Jan. 01, 2010: Lakers 109 - Kings 108 (buzzer-beater, 3-pointer)
Jan. 31, 2010: Lakers 90 - Celtics 89 (jumper over Ray Allen w/ 7.3 secs)
Feb. 23, 2010: Lakers 99 - Grizzlies 98 (3-pointer over Rudy Gay w/ 4.3 secs)
Mar. 9, 2010: Lakers 109 - Raptors 107 (jumper over Antoine Wright w/ 1.9 secs)


or the other guy

Nov. 11, 1984: Bulls 118 - Pacers 116 (jumper with 4 secs)
Dec. 7, 1984: Bulls 95 - Knicks 93 (jumper w/ 5 secs)
Mar. 26, 1985: Bulls 120 - Pacers 119 (game-winning FT's with 5 secs)
Apr. 24, 1985: Bulls 109 - Bucks 107 (PO, jumper with 22 secs)
Oct. 25, 1985: Bulls 116 - Cavaliers 115 (game-winning FT, makes 1-2 FT)
Nov. 11, 1986: Bulls 112 - Hawks 110 (layup with 9 secs)
Nov. 21, 1986: Bulls 101 - Knicks 99 (jumper with 1 sec)
Feb. 12, 1988: Bulls 95 - Bucks 93 (game-winning FT's with 2 secs)
Apr. 3, 1988: Bulls 112 - Pistons 110 (game-winning Ft's with 4 secs)
Apr. 15, 1988: Bulls 100 - Nets 99 (jumper with 20 secs)
Feb. 16, 1989: Bulls 117 - Bucks 116 (jumper with 1 sec)
May 7, 1989: Bulls 101 - Cavaliers 100 (PO, buzzer-beater jumper over Craig Ehlo)
May 19, 1989: Bulls 113 - Knicks 111 (PO, game-winning FT's with 4 secs)
May 27, 1989: Bulls 99 - Pistons 97 (PO, jumper with 3 secs)
Nov. 13, 1990: Bulls 84 - Jazz 82 (buzzer-beater over Thurl Bailey)
Jan. 22, 1992: Bulls 115 - Hornets 112 (layup and-1)
Nov. 11, 1992: Bulls 98 - Pistons 96 (buzzer-beater 3-pointer)
May 17, 1993: Bulls 103 - Cavaliers 101 (buzzer-beater jumper over Gerald Wilkins)
Mar. 25, 1995: Bulls 99 - Hawks 98 (buzzer-beater over Steve Smith)
Feb. 11, 1997: Bulls 103 - Hornets 100 (buzzer-beater 3-pointer)
Mar. 18, 1997: Bulls 89 - Sonics 87 (OT, game-winning FT's)
Jun. 1, 1997: Bulls 84 - Jazz 82 (PO, buzzer-beater jumper)
Feb. 13, 1998: Bulls 112 - Hawks 110 (buzzer beater jumper over Chucky Brown)
Mar. 22, 1998: Bulls 102 - Raptors 100 (fade-away with 5 secs)
Jun. 14, 1998: Bulls 87 - Jazz 86 (PO, jumper with 5.2 secs)
Jan. 21, 2002: Wizards 93 - Cavaliers 92 (buzzer-beater jumper)
Feb. 15, 2002: Wizards 97 - Suns 96 (jumper over Shawn Marion with 0.2 secs)

I need to see each play. Can you please provide a link to each one so that I can reach my conclusion?

[rmt]

There are a lot of naive people on this board and for you to point out Kobe's 6 for 24 shooting game is inaccurate. If the the team shot drastically better than Kobe, then you would have a case but if you look at the team's shooting, there were many players who shot poorly on the Lakers.

Of the main players for the Lakers, only Bynum (20%) shot worse than Kobe (25%):

Artest 7-18 39%
Gasol 6-16 38%
Bynum 1-5 20%
Fisher 4-6 67%
Odom 3-8 38%

The rest of the team (minus Kobe) shot 36%. I would say that 36% is drastically better than 25%. The only players who shot worse than Kobe were Bynum, Farmar, Vujacic and Brown who are mostly peripheral players.


It's only exaggerated because he shot more than everyone else.

Do you understand what a percentage is? He shot more than everyone else, but he also missed more than everyone else. If he was missing so much, one wonders why he kept shooting.


To say he wasn't clutch because of his shooting is wrong when he played a good game and FG% does not dictate a good or bad game.

I don't recall Kobe playing a good game. I recall Artest playing a great game on both sides of the floor. I remember Fisher hitting a clutch 3 near the end of the game.

When it counts the most (in NBA Finals), has Kobe had any dominant or clutch performances?

[alexandreben]

A load of players came to my mind when I saw the subject, e.g. Bill Russell grabbed 40 rebounds with 30 points when all his forwards were fouled out and won the game, the "Jordan minute", the "Miller Time", Jerry "Mr.Clutch" West, "Havlicek stole the ball", Robert Horry, Kobe the man with 30 clutch shots, even Magic, not to mention Bird's numerous sick clutch shots...

How to define the greatest clutch player, the winning percentage? then Russell is second to no one;

The combination of the number of buzzer-beater and the FG% of buzzer-beater? then i'd like to go with Bird, the man who had over 30-35 game-winners and buzzer-beaters (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/060802) during his career, along with dozens of game-clinching free throws, and according to my memory i believe he had very high clutch shot FG%..:bowdown:

moment of truth:

The greatest clutch player: Bill Russell

The greatest buzzer-beater: Larry Bird



BTW, up to 2009, LeBron is so far the highest FG% clutch shots in the league right now,

LeBron shot 17-50, with 34.0% clutch field goal;

Kobe shot 14-56, with 25.0% clutch field goal;



If the "Clutch" is defined as the 4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points, here's Production per 48 Minutes of Clutch Time of current player in the league:
Kobe had 56.7pts as NO.1, LeBron had 55.9pts as second.

[Batz]

LeBron shot 17-50, with 34.0% clutch field goal;

Kobe shot 14-56, with 25.0% clutch field goal;
Where'd you get this from...?

[Horatio33]

two phrases:

Layup-Steal-Jumper.

Six For Twenty Four.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Best clutch players in history are MJ and Bird on tier 1, then West, Kobe, Miller, and Magic on tier 2.

Btw, Jordan's list is woefully incomplete. I know of AT LEAST a half dozen shots that aren't on there, and I haven't seen nearly every Bulls game. Here's one example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQsp4DPsuro#t=1m52s

Now go compare that to his "official" game winning shot list on NBA.com or the OP of this topic. Guess what, it's not there, just like at least half a dozen others I know of. Here's a link to the box score:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199002250NJN.html

[Mr. Jabbar]

Fisher could make the top10 all time clutch players easily, the guy just doesn't miss in the clutch, clutch steals, getting O fouled by oponents...

[alexandreben]

please forgive me for forgetting this man who had a 9-0 perfect record in Game 7, averaged 27.1 points in those potential season-ending, elimination games, including a Game 7-record 47 points in the 1963 East Finals.
http://hoopedia.nba.com/images/7/7d/Sam_jones_1.jpg
Jones delivered in Game 7 against Oscar Robertson and the Cincinnati Royals and set a NBA Game 7-record 47 points in the Celtics’ 142-131 victory. Jones finished 18 for 27 from the floor, and 11 of 12 from the free throw line in one of the best shooting performances in NBA Game 7 history.

[alexandreben]

You asked who was the greatest clutch player of ALL-TIME.

Russell's teams went 11-0 in game seven's, and he averaged 18 ppg and 29 rpg in those game sevens.
With all due respect, Russell's game seven record is 10-0, he averaged 18.6 points and 29.3 rebounds. Here's a full list of Russell's clutch performance stats in game seven:

1957 NBA Finals: Boston 125, St. Louis 123 (2OT)
Russell:19 points, 32 rebounds

1959 East Finals: Boston 130, Syracuse 125
Russell: 18 points, 32 rebounds

1960 NBA Finals: Boston 122, St. Louis 103
Russell: 22 points, 35 rebounds

1962 East Finals: Boston 109, Philadelphia 107
Russell: 19 points, 22 rebounds

1962 NBA Finals: Boston 110, Los Angeles 107 (OT)
Russell: 30 points, 40 rebounds

1963 East Finals: Boston 142, Cincinnati 131
Russell: 20 points, 24 rebounds

1965 East Finals: Boston 110, Philadelphia 109
Russell: 15 points, 29 rebounds

1966 NBA Finals: Boston 95, Los Angeles 93
Russell: 25 points, 32 rebounds

1968 East Finals: Boston 100, Philadelphia 96
Russell: 12 points, 26 rebounds

1969 NBA Finals: Boston 108, Los Angeles 106
Russell: 6 points, 21 rebounds

[Big#50]

West
Russell
Duncan
Shaq
Jordan
Bird
Hakeem
They always played great when their team needed them to. Clutch doesn't mean shooting a jumper at the buzzer.

[Andrei89]

If that isn't clutch than I don't know what is.


i am going with the last part

[RoseCity07]

Anyone notice Kobe has no shots listed in June, but Jordan has 2. hmmm

[SuperPippen]

Of the main players for the Lakers, only Bynum (20%) shot worse than Kobe (25%):

Artest 7-18 39%
Gasol 6-16 38%
Bynum 1-5 20%
Fisher 4-6 67%
Odom 3-8 38%

The rest of the team (minus Kobe) shot 36%. I would say that 36% is drastically better than 25%. The only players who shot worse than Kobe were Bynum, Farmar, Vujacic and Brown who are mostly peripheral players.



Do you understand what a percentage is? He shot more than everyone else, but he also missed more than everyone else. If he was missing so much, one wonders why he kept shooting.



I don't recall Kobe playing a good game. I recall Artest playing a great game on both sides of the floor. I remember Fisher hitting a clutch 3 near the end of the game.

When it counts the most (in NBA Finals), has Kobe had any dominant or clutch performances?

Precisely what this man said.

Also, would MJ or Russell allow their teams to be blown out by 39 points as Kobe did in the clinching game of the 2008 Finals? Would MJ or Russell have been a part of a team that was very nearly swept in the Finals, as in 2004?

Really, the more I look into it, the more I realize that the notion of Kobe being even more clutch than a guy who never lost a game 7 or a guy who never lost a Finals is absurd. Kobe is clutch, yes, but is he comparable to these guys? No.

[jstern]

Jordan and Bird. Jordan in particular when it comes to defense. Just of the top so many situations where in the final seconds of the game he just steal the ball, and then score. Perfect example his last game as a Bull.

[jstern]

Kobe shot 3 air balls in clutch situations during the playoffs, and just at the end of last season he missed 2 free throws with a few seconds left and the Lakers lost because of it. Plus if I'm not mistaken, even though he hit 6 game winners last year, his percentage for game winners is not that good. I think it's in the 20s. I think this is where people get frustrated with the obsessed Kobe fans, they start claiming that he's the greatest of all time in everything when he's far from perfect.

[MasterDurant24]

Total Game Winners:

Kobe- 29
Jordan- 27

Total Jumpers Made to Win in Last 10 Seconds

Kobe- 20
Jordan- 19

And kobe still has a lot more to come...
Doesn't mean he is more of a clutch player.

[MasterDurant24]

I agree but then came along MJ to surpass him and then came Kobe to surpass both.

Like I said, I would give it to Kobe.
I think you are a bit of a biased poster.

[MasterDurant24]

Loss.
To the Celtics.

[ThaRegul8r]

You asked who was the greatest clutch player of ALL-TIME.

Russell's teams went 11-0 in game seven's, and he averaged 18 ppg and 29 rpg in those game sevens.

With all due respect, Russell's game seven record is 10-0, he averaged 18.6 points and 29.3 rebounds.

That 11th game would be Game 5 of a best-of-five series, against Cincinnati, if memory serves. They actually trailed Cincinnati in the series and had to rally back to win. So it's 10-0 in Game 7s, 11-0 in series-deciding games.

[playtetris]

Oh yeah but even getting to that point was clutch :lol

Game 4 was an epic performance with 2 clutch shots.
& he had the clutch dunk over Nash in Game 2

remind me... was that game seven the one where he gave up ala lebron? to make a point? taking a few shots in the second half? hmm?
:confusedshrug:

[HisJoeness]

Andrew Toney used to throw up big, biiiiig games in the playoffs.


Anyway I think jlauber has it right. I think it's important to factor in more than buzzer beating shots when evaluating players. Can anyone definitively prove that a singular buzzer beating shot is more clutch than say a 32/7/11 if both performances lead to wins? I don't think anyone can.

[zizozain]

loki. bruce and other mj stans:

Everyone remembers him hitting the game winner in 1998 to close out Utah, but few remember that Jordan missed 20 shots
in that game and only had a total of 1 rebound and 1 assist.

[jlauber]

Andrew Toney used to throw up big, biiiiig games in the playoffs.


Anyway I think jlauber has it right. I think it's important to factor in more than buzzer beating shots when evaluating players. Can anyone definitively prove that a singular buzzer beating shot is more clutch than say a 32/7/11 if both performances lead to wins? I don't think anyone can.

Exactly! For instance, Magic's clinching game six of the '80 Finals (his ROOKIE year), and in which Kareem missed. All Magic did was put up a 42-15-7-3 game, in leading his team to the title. Or Kareem's game five in that same series, in which he injured his ankle in the third quarter. He came back in the 4th quarter, and on that badly swollen ankle, he scored 14 pts in the period in leading LA to a 108-105 win (and finished with 40 points.)

Game-winners are fine. But IMHO, that ALONE is not a consideration for "clutch."

[KingBeasley08]

Jordan or Russell. Then I'll take Kareem.
this.

[alexandreben]

That 11th game would be Game 5 of a best-of-five series, against Cincinnati, if memory serves. They actually trailed Cincinnati in the series and had to rally back to win. So it's 10-0 in Game 7s, 11-0 in series-deciding games.
yes, the semi finals with Cincinnati in 66'... that gives Russell incredible 11-0 perfect record in deciding games.:bowdown:

Sam Jones scored 34pts and Havlicek helped to share his burden by scoring 23pts, not sure what stats Russell got from that game though, care to help to check pls?

[KingBeasley08]

Michael Jordan

[Simple Jack]

whats funny is that this tool im quoting has an avatar that makes fun of kobes smile

only a homo would care what another dude looks like

It's homo that you think I did it for that reason. Where's your head at?

[Desperado]

Bill Russell. ''Mr. Game 7'' and 11-0 in the Finals.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2006/columns/story?columnist=shouler_ken&id=2453844


Clutch shots/killer instinct? Kobe, Bird or Jordan.

[nbacardDOTnet]

Bill Russell. ''Mr. Game 7'' and 11-0 in the Finals.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2006/columns/story?columnist=shouler_ken&id=2453844


Clutch shots/killer instinct? Kobe, Bird or Jordan.


http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt9/crashcrazy_SG/336-ice-cube-chris-tucker-damn.gif

[rmt]

MJ

[Jordan23GOAT]

I'll say Jordan. He was better on defense. He could save a game or get possession for his team with his defense.

[Aye Dee]

MJ

[jlauber]

I'll say Jordan. He was better on defense. He could save a game or get possession for his team with his defense.

Here again...if you are using defense...what about Russell?

[Soundwave]

loki. bruce and other mj stans:

Everyone remembers him hitting the game winner in 1998 to close out Utah, but few remember that Jordan missed 20 shots
in that game and only had a total of 1 rebound and 1 assist.

He didn't just hit the jumper, he made several huge clutch plays in that stretch and the reason he had to take so many shots that game was because Pippen was barely able to play and couldn't even finish the game.

When the chips were on the table, Jordan single handedly pretty much beat the Jazz himself.

The defensive read he made on Malone was just a thing of beauty. Basketball I.Q. on the defensive end at its best.

[KNOW1EDGE]

MJ, RUSSELL, REGGIE MILLER, BIRD

How could you ever prove 1 player is "more clutch" than another?

Numbers dont mean $h!t

[AirJordan&Magic]

You asked who was the greatest clutch player of ALL-TIME.

Russell's teams went 11-0 in game seven's, and he averaged 18 ppg and 29 rpg in those game sevens.

Why bother replying to this moron?

[ThaRegul8r]

That 11th game would be Game 5 of a best-of-five series, against Cincinnati, if memory serves. They actually trailed Cincinnati in the series and had to rally back to win. So it's 10-0 in Game 7s, 11-0 in series-deciding games.

yes, the semi finals with Cincinnati in 66'... that gives Russell incredible 11-0 perfect record in deciding games.:bowdown:

Sam Jones scored 34pts and Havlicek helped to share his burden by scoring 23pts, not sure what stats Russell got from that game though, care to help to check pls?

Don't have the points for the game, but he grabbed 31 rebounds.

[ThaRegul8r]

West
Russell
Duncan
Shaq
Jordan
Bird
Hakeem
They always played great when their team needed them to. Clutch doesn't mean shooting a jumper at the buzzer.

True. It's the Kobe fans who seized on that though. After they found out that he had surpassed Jordan in game-winning shots, they used it as proof that since Kobe made more game-winning shots in his career, he's a better clutch player. And THEN they use that to say that if Kobe is a better clutch player than Jordan was, then that makes him the greatest ever. :rolleyes:

[Ketchup]

It doesnt matter most players dont have the gut to take the shot period & the fact that they still have a reputation of being clutch speaks volumes.

Stop with the bullshit.

You can't pick and choose when FG% matters.:oldlol:

[ThaRegul8r]

With all due respect, Russell's game seven record is 10-0, he averaged 18.6 points and 29.3 rebounds. Here's a full list of Russell's clutch performance stats in game seven:

1957 NBA Finals: Boston 125, St. Louis 123 (2OT)
Russell:19 points, 32 rebounds

1959 East Finals: Boston 130, Syracuse 125
Russell: 18 points, 32 rebounds

1960 NBA Finals: Boston 122, St. Louis 103
Russell: 22 points, 35 rebounds

1962 East Finals: Boston 109, Philadelphia 107
Russell: 19 points, 22 rebounds

1962 NBA Finals: Boston 110, Los Angeles 107 (OT)
Russell: 30 points, 40 rebounds

1963 East Finals: Boston 142, Cincinnati 131
Russell: 20 points, 24 rebounds

1965 East Finals: Boston 110, Philadelphia 109
Russell: 15 points, 29 rebounds, eight assists and six blocked shots

Filled in the rest. It was the second game of the series in which Russell finished two assists short of a triple double, and he actually did have a triple double in a Game 5 114-108 win, with 12 points, 28 rebounds and 12 blocked shots, to go along with seven assists and three steals

[ThaRegul8r]

I'll say Jordan. He was better on defense. He could save a game or get possession for his team with his defense.

Here again...if you are using defense...what about Russell?

People talk about Hakeem's block on John Starks on Game 6 of the 1994 NBA Finals and Tayshaun Prince's block on Reggie Miller in Game 2 of the 2004 Eastern Conference Finals, but I can think of three clutch blocks by Russell off the top of my head without even thinking about it: his NBA-title saving block on Jack Coleman in Game 7 of the 1957 NBA Finals which kept St. Louis from winning the game

[jlauber]

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]People talk about Hakeem's block on John Starks on Game 6 of the 1994 NBA Finals and Tayshaun Prince's block on Reggie Miller in Game 2 of the 2004 Eastern Conference Finals, but I can think of three clutch blocks by Russell off the top of my head without even thinking about it: his NBA-title saving block on Jack Coleman in Game 7 of the 1957 NBA Finals which kept St. Louis from winning the game

[Bladers]

THIS IS THE FULL LIST FOR KOBE!


1) 05/09/99 - Lakers 101, Rockets 100 (playoffs, game-winning FTs with 5.3 seconds remaining)
2) 12/27/99 - Lakers 108, Mavericks 106 (game-winning FTs)
3) 05/10/00 - Lakers 97, Phoenix 96 (playoffs, jumper over Jason Kidd)
4) 11/16/00 - Lakers 112, Kings 110 (game-tying three for OT, OT jumper for win)
5) 02/07/01 - Lakers 85, Phoenix 83 (jumper with 2.7 seconds remaining)
6) 02/13/01 - Lakers 113, Nets 110 (OT game-winning layup with the And-1)
7) 01/02/02 - Lakers 87, Nuggets 86 (offensive reb and jumper)
8) 02/22/02 - Lakers 96, Hornets 94 (first career buzzer-beater, jumper)
9) 03/24/02 - Lakers 97, Kings 96 (fade-away jumper, 36 seconds remaining)
10) 05/12/02 - Lakers 87, Spurs 85 (playoffs, offensive rebound and put-back)
11) 12/06/02 - Lakers 105, Mavericks 103 (28-point game comeback, spin-around jumper)
12) 04/04/03 - Lakers 102, Grizzlies 101 (buzzer-beater, jumper)
13) 04/06/03 - Lakers 115, Suns 113 (GW jumper with 28.6 seconds remaining)
14) 12/19/03 - Lakers 101, Nuggets 99 (game after the trial, buzzer-beating fade-away)
15) 02/17/04 - Lakers 89, Blazers 86 (layup and the foul)
16) 03/21/04 - Lakers 104, Bucks 103 (OT jumper with 25 seconds remaining)
17) 04/14/04 - Lakers 105, Blazers 104 (game-tying three for OT, OT GW buzzer-beating three)
18) 03/13/05 - Lakers 117, Bobcats 116 (pump fake jumper for the win)
19) 11/02/05 - Lakers 99, Nuggets 97 (OT jumper after the Kwame brick)
20) 12/04/05 - Lakers 99, Bobcats 98 (game-winning FTs)
21) 01/12/06 - Lakers 99, Cavaliers 98 (jumper against Lebron with 8 seconds to go)
22) 04/30/06 - Lakers 99, Suns 98 (playoffs, game-tying tear drop for OT, and OT game-winning jumper)
23) 01/14/08 - Lakers 123, Sonics 121 (OT game-winning jumper)
24) 01/09/09 - Lakers 121, Pacers 119 (jumper against Jarrett Jack with 3 seconds to go)
25) 12/04/09 - Lakers 108, Heat 107 (game-winning buzzer-beating three over Wade)
26) 12/16/09 - Lakers 107, Bucks 106 (game-winning buzzer-beating jumper over Bell)
27) 01/01/10 - Lakers 109, Kings 108 (game-winning buzzer-beating three, 4.1 seconds left and 0.1 remaining)
28) 01/13/10 - Lakers 100, Mavericks 95 (game-winning jumper with 28.9 seconds remaining)
29) 01/31/10 - Lakers 90, Celtics 89 (game-winning jumper with 7 secs remaining)
30) 02/23/10 - Lakers 99, Grizzlies 98 (game-winning jumper with 4.3 seconds remaining)
31) 03/10/10 - Lakers 109, Raptors 107 (game-winning fade-away with 1.9 seconds remaining)

[SinJackal]

MJ's the most clutch imo.

Also clutch all game long rather than just at the end.

[Bladers]

MJ's the most clutch imo.

Also clutch all game long rather than just at the end.

Kobe has 31 and counting...
He will have like 40 before he retires.
40 > 27 :confusedshrug:

[SinJackal]

Kobe has 31 and counting...
He will have like 40 before he retires..:confusedshrug:

40 > 27

Kobe has also missed almost 3x as many game winners as MJ.

MJ didn't have to shoot game winners most of the time since he would dominate so much during the game, it wasn't close that often at the end.

[MasterDurant24]

Kobe has 31 and counting...
He will have like 40 before he retires..:confusedshrug:

40 > 27
Game winners are only a fraction of clutch play.

[Bladers]

Kobe has also missed almost 3x as many game winners as MJ.


Prove it or GTFO...
Its easy to make statements like that without the facts when you have some hard feelings toward a particular player..

[SinJackal]

Prove it or GTFO...
Its easy to make statements like that without the facts..

http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

Kobe Bryant: 14-56, from '03-'08, reg season and playoffs.

Which is a 25% FG% when taking game winner, and means he missed 4x as many as he made over that span. That span being Kobe's Bryant's best 5 years of his life.

I'll have to look for MJ's game winners missed list, but I know he wasn't shooting anywhere near as bad as 25% when taking them. Considering that MJ has clearly SHOT less potential game winners, the odds of Kobe having a much higher list of misses, with his horribly low FG% when taking them, are extremely high.

[Bladers]

Game winners are only a fraction of clutch play.

No, GW make up mostly half of clutch.
The rest of the factor is with 2 minutes left in the 4th one/two position game And Kobe dominates that aswell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWXvi8waXyA

[MasterDurant24]

http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

Kobe Bryant: 14-56, from '03-'08, reg season and playoffs.

Which is a 25% FG% when taking game winner, and means he missed 4x as many as he made over that span. That span being Kobe's Bryant's best 5 years of his life.

I'll have to look for MJ's game winners missed list, but I know he wasn't shooting anywhere near as bad as 25% when taking them. Considering that MJ has clearly SHOT less potential game winners, the odds of Kobe having a much higher list of misses, with his horribly low FG% when taking them, are extremely high.
Damn.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan's game winner list is FAR from complete. I personally know of at least half a dozen shots that aren't list. AT LEAST.

[MasterDurant24]

No, GW make up mostly half of clutch.
The rest of the factor is with 2 minutes left in the 4th And Kobe dominates that aswell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWXvi8waXyA
Clutch is playing great in pressure situations. It's pretty stupid to base clutchness on game-winners.

[Bladers]

http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

Kobe Bryant: 14-56, from '03-'08, reg season and playoffs.

Which is a 25% FG% when taking game winner, and means he missed 4x as many as he made over that span. That span being Kobe's Bryant's best 5 years of his life.

I'll have to look for MJ's game winners missed list, but I know he wasn't shooting anywhere near as bad as 25% when taking them. Considering that MJ has clearly SHOT less potential game winners, the odds of Kobe having a much higher list of misses, with his horribly low FG% when taking them, are extremely high.

LOL @ you using 82games, they say he has 14, while he clearly has 31 game winners. Stick to the program.

[nnn123]

Kobe has 31 and counting...
He will have like 40 before he retires.
40 > 27 :confusedshrug:

Look at Kobe's list. It counts game winners with like 35 seconds remaining...I'm not even sure how that technically counts as a "game winner". Whereas Jordan's list only includes shots under 10 seconds. If we were to count how many go-ahead buckets Jordan has hit in the last 40 seconds or so, it would be significantly higher than 31.

So no......

[Bladers]

Look at Kobe's list. It counts game winners with like 35 seconds remaining...I'm not even sure how that technically counts as a "game winner". Whereas Jordan's list only includes shots under 10 seconds. If we were to count how many go-ahead buckets Jordan has hit in the last 40 seconds or so, it would be significantly higher than 31.

So no......

NO, it wasn't a go ahead bucket, it was a game-winner.
The other team didn't score any more and Lakers didn't score anymore either.

[RazorBaLade]

82games is such a joke

[Bladers]

Clutch is playing great in pressure situations. It's pretty stupid to base clutchness on game-winners.

So hitting a game winner shot while down isn't a pressure situation?
Is the first quarter a pressure situation?
What about the second?
Or the third?
NOPE..

Only with 2mins left in a one/two position game in the 4th quarter is the pressure really on. And most of the times, it leads to a game winning shot.

[SinJackal]

LOL @ you using 82games, they say he has 14, while he clearly has 31 game winners. Stick to the program.

It was a sample from '03-'08, not his entire career.

You asked for proof, I posted the only site I could find with a list of his game winners taken.

To prove me wrong, post proof. Don't just bash the site I used and then act like that somehow proves your point.

Prove me wrong with something besides your opinion. Show me some stats.

[Bladers]

NO, it wasn't a go ahead bucket, it was a game-winner.
The other team didn't score any more and Lakers didn't score anymore either.

Actually its 2.6 seconds left..
They had it wrong..
Here is the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U616sib8v-Y

[Bladers]

It was a sample from '03-'08, not his entire career.

You asked for proof, I posted the only site I could find with a list of his game winners taken.

To prove me wrong, post proof. Don't just bash the site I used and then act like that somehow proves your point.

Prove me wrong with something besides your opinion. Show me some stats.

List of Kobe's notable game-winners:

1) 05/09/99 - Lakers 101, Rockets 100 (playoffs, game-winning FTs with 5.3 seconds remaining)
2) 12/27/99 - Lakers 108, Mavericks 106 (game-winning FTs)
3) 05/10/00 - Lakers 97, Phoenix 96 (playoffs, jumper over Jason Kidd)
4) 11/16/00 - Lakers 112, Kings 110 (game-tying three for OT, OT jumper for win)
5) 02/07/01 - Lakers 85, Phoenix 83 (jumper with 2.7 seconds remaining)
6) 02/13/01 - Lakers 113, Nets 110 (OT game-winning layup with the And-1)
7) 01/02/02 - Lakers 87, Nuggets 86 (offensive reb and jumper)
8) 02/22/02 - Lakers 96, Hornets 94 (first career buzzer-beater, jumper)
9) 03/24/02 - Lakers 97, Kings 96 (fade-away jumper, 2.6 seconds remaining)
10) 05/12/02 - Lakers 87, Spurs 85 (playoffs, offensive rebound and put-back)
11) 12/06/02 - Lakers 105, Mavericks 103 (28-point game comeback, spin-around jumper)
12) 04/04/03 - Lakers 102, Grizzlies 101 (buzzer-beater, jumper)
13) 04/06/03 - Lakers 115, Suns 113 (GW jumper with 28.6 seconds remaining)
14) 12/19/03 - Lakers 101, Nuggets 99 (game after the trial, buzzer-beating fade-away)
15) 02/17/04 - Lakers 89, Blazers 86 (layup and the foul)
16) 03/21/04 - Lakers 104, Bucks 103 (OT jumper with 25 seconds remaining)
17) 04/14/04 - Lakers 105, Blazers 104 (game-tying three for OT, OT GW buzzer-beating three)
18) 03/13/05 - Lakers 117, Bobcats 116 (pump fake jumper for the win)
19) 11/02/05 - Lakers 99, Nuggets 97 (OT jumper after the Kwame brick)
20) 12/04/05 - Lakers 99, Bobcats 98 (game-winning FTs)
21) 01/12/06 - Lakers 99, Cavaliers 98 (jumper against Lebron with 8 seconds to go)
22) 04/30/06 - Lakers 99, Suns 98 (playoffs, game-tying tear drop for OT, and OT game-winning jumper)
23) 01/14/08 - Lakers 123, Sonics 121 (OT game-winning jumper)
24) 01/09/09 - Lakers 121, Pacers 119 (jumper against Jarrett Jack with 3 seconds to go)
25) 12/04/09 - Lakers 108, Heat 107 (game-winning buzzer-beating three over Wade)
26) 12/16/09 - Lakers 107, Bucks 106 (game-winning buzzer-beating jumper over Bell)
27) 01/01/10 - Lakers 109, Kings 108 (game-winning buzzer-beating three, 4.1 seconds left and 0.1 remaining)
28) 01/13/10 - Lakers 100, Mavericks 95 (game-winning jumper with 28.9 seconds remaining)
29) 01/31/10 - Lakers 90, Celtics 89 (game-winning jumper with 7 secs remaining)
30) 02/23/10 - Lakers 99, Grizzlies 98 (game-winning jumper with 4.3 seconds remaining)
31) 03/10/10 - Lakers 109, Raptors 107 (game-winning fade-away with 1.9 seconds remaining)

[usdmef9]

Outside of that one series, name me all the Reggie Miller clutch moments.

I want this stupid notion to end. Younger fans who are here to learn are getting completely fooled into thinking Miller was something, when he actually wasn't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKNoJocnn-I

You have to be kidding me if you think Reggie was not clutch! Was he hansome? No. Is he a good commentator, No. Would I want my sister to date him? Hell no. Is he one of the most clutch players of all time? absolutely.

[nnn123]

NO, it wasn't a go ahead bucket, it was a game-winner.
The other team didn't score any more and Lakers didn't score anymore either.


28) 01/13/10 - Lakers 100, Mavericks 95 (game-winning jumper with 28.9 seconds remaining)



Something tells me this wasn't a "game-winner" by ur definition (no one scored after the shot) seeing how the lakers won by 5. So clearly this whole list is BS

[SinJackal]

List of Kobe's notable game-winners:

1) 05/09/99 - Lakers 101, Rockets 100 (playoffs, game-winning FTs with 5.3 seconds remaining)
2) 12/27/99 - Lakers 108, Mavericks 106 (game-winning FTs)
3) 05/10/00 - Lakers 97, Phoenix 96 (playoffs, jumper over Jason Kidd)
4) 11/16/00 - Lakers 112, Kings 110 (game-tying three for OT, OT jumper for win)
5) 02/07/01 - Lakers 85, Phoenix 83 (jumper with 2.7 seconds remaining)
6) 02/13/01 - Lakers 113, Nets 110 (OT game-winning layup with the And-1)
7) 01/02/02 - Lakers 87, Nuggets 86 (offensive reb and jumper)
8) 02/22/02 - Lakers 96, Hornets 94 (first career buzzer-beater, jumper)
9) 03/24/02 - Lakers 97, Kings 96 (fade-away jumper, 2.6 seconds remaining)
10) 05/12/02 - Lakers 87, Spurs 85 (playoffs, offensive rebound and put-back)
11) 12/06/02 - Lakers 105, Mavericks 103 (28-point game comeback, spin-around jumper)
12) 04/04/03 - Lakers 102, Grizzlies 101 (buzzer-beater, jumper)
13) 04/06/03 - Lakers 115, Suns 113 (GW jumper with 28.6 seconds remaining)
14) 12/19/03 - Lakers 101, Nuggets 99 (game after the trial, buzzer-beating fade-away)
15) 02/17/04 - Lakers 89, Blazers 86 (layup and the foul)
16) 03/21/04 - Lakers 104, Bucks 103 (OT jumper with 25 seconds remaining)
17) 04/14/04 - Lakers 105, Blazers 104 (game-tying three for OT, OT GW buzzer-beating three)
18) 03/13/05 - Lakers 117, Bobcats 116 (pump fake jumper for the win)
19) 11/02/05 - Lakers 99, Nuggets 97 (OT jumper after the Kwame brick)
20) 12/04/05 - Lakers 99, Bobcats 98 (game-winning FTs)
21) 01/12/06 - Lakers 99, Cavaliers 98 (jumper against Lebron with 8 seconds to go)
22) 04/30/06 - Lakers 99, Suns 98 (playoffs, game-tying tear drop for OT, and OT game-winning jumper)
23) 01/14/08 - Lakers 123, Sonics 121 (OT game-winning jumper)
24) 01/09/09 - Lakers 121, Pacers 119 (jumper against Jarrett Jack with 3 seconds to go)
25) 12/04/09 - Lakers 108, Heat 107 (game-winning buzzer-beating three over Wade)
26) 12/16/09 - Lakers 107, Bucks 106 (game-winning buzzer-beating jumper over Bell)
27) 01/01/10 - Lakers 109, Kings 108 (game-winning buzzer-beating three, 4.1 seconds left and 0.1 remaining)
28) 01/13/10 - Lakers 100, Mavericks 95 (game-winning jumper with 28.9 seconds remaining)
29) 01/31/10 - Lakers 90, Celtics 89 (game-winning jumper with 7 secs remaining)
30) 02/23/10 - Lakers 99, Grizzlies 98 (game-winning jumper with 4.3 seconds remaining)
31) 03/10/10 - Lakers 109, Raptors 107 (game-winning fade-away with 1.9 seconds remaining)

So kobe is 31 for 31 when he takes game winners?

That list shows zero of his game winners missed, and hence, is an incomplete and invalid list.

Show me proof that Kobe is better than 25% when taking game winners as 82games suggests.

You have yet to do this, and have done nothing but keep posting that same list which doesn't prove that he shoots a high percentage in those situations.



Also, Jordan supposedly only missed 26 game winners. And made 28, not 27.


MICHAEL JORDAN

Total = 28
Buzzer Beaters = 9
Game Winning Field Goals = 22
Game Winning 3-Pointers = 2
Game Winning Free Throws = 6

1. Nov. 11, 1984: Bulls 118 - Pacers 116 (jumper with 4 secs)
2. Dec. 7, 1984: Bulls 95 - Knicks 93 (jumper w/ 5 secs)
3. Mar. 26, 1985: Bulls 120 - Pacers 119 (game-winning FT's with 5 secs)
4. Apr. 24, 1985: Bulls 109 - Bucks 107 (PO, jumper with 22 secs)
5. Oct. 25, 1985: Bulls 116 - Cavaliers 115 (game-winning FT, makes 1-2 FT)
6. Nov. 11, 1986: Bulls 112 - Hawks 110 (layup with 9 secs)
7. Nov. 21, 1986: Bulls 101 - Knicks 99 (jumper with 1 sec)
8. Feb. 12, 1988: Bulls 95 - Bucks 93 (game-winning FT's with 2 secs)
9. Apr. 3, 1988: Bulls 112 - Pistons 110 (game-winning Ft's with 4 secs)
10. Apr. 15, 1988: Bulls 100 - Nets 99 (jumper with 20 secs)
11. Feb. 16, 1989: Bulls 117 - Bucks 116 (jumper with 1 sec)
12. May 7, 1989: Bulls 101 - Cavaliers 100 (PO, buzzer-beater jumper over Craig Ehlo)
13. May 19, 1989: Bulls 113 - Knicks 111 (PO, game-winning FT's with 4 secs)
14. May 27, 1989: Bulls 99 - Pistons 97 (PO, jumper with 3 secs)
15. Nov. 13, 1990: Bulls 84 - Jazz 82 (buzzer-beater over Thurl Bailey)
16. Jan. 22, 1992: Bulls 115 - Hornets 112 (layup and-1)
17. Nov. 11, 1992: Bulls 98 - Pistons 96 (buzzer-beater 3-pointer)
18. May 17, 1993: Bulls 103 - Cavaliers 101 (buzzer-beater jumper over Gerald Wilkins)
19. Mar. 25, 1995: Bulls 99 - Hawks 98 (buzzer-beater over Steve Smith)
20. Feb. 11, 1997: Bulls 103 - Hornets 100 (buzzer-beater 3-pointer)
21. Mar. 18, 1997: Bulls 89 - Sonics 87 (OT, game-winning FT's)
22. Jun. 1, 1997: Bulls 84 - Jazz 82 (PO, buzzer-beater jumper)
23. Feb. 13, 1998: Bulls 112 - Hawks 110 (buzzer beater jumper over Chucky Brown)
24. Mar. 22, 1998: Bulls 102 - Raptors 100 (fade-away with 5 secs)
25. Jun. 14, 1998: Bulls 87 - Jazz 86 (PO, jumper with 5.2 secs)
26. Dec. 22, 2001: Wizards 87 - Knicks 86 (jumper over Latrell Sprewell w/ 3.2 secs)
27. Jan. 21, 2002: Wizards 93 - Cavaliers 92 (buzzer-beater jumper)
28. Feb. 15, 2002: Wizards 97 - Suns 96 (jumper over Shawn Marion with 0.2 secs)

Percentage of GW that are Field Goals: 79 %
Percentage of GW that are Free Throws: 21 %
Percentage of GW that are 3-Pointers = 7 %
Percentage of GW that are Buzzer Beaters: 32 %

Of the 28 Game Winners: (25 with Bulls / 3 with Wizards)
Of the 9 Buzzer Beaters: (8 with Bulls / 1 with Wizards)

List compiled by Mitchell, M. Burns, contributions Jordan-esque, NBAStatman.

Which makes MJ 28/54. 52% when taking game winners. Not counting FTs, that's 22/48. 46%, higher than Kobe's regular career FG%.

We know that Kobe has made 31 game winners (3 FTs), but how many has he missed? That's the question we're asking dude.

According to 82games, he's missed at least 42, and only during a 5 year span. Even if Kobe didn't miss any game winners outside of that span (which is obviously not true), he would still have a lower shooting % in clutch situations than MJ.

So like I said, until you post a LIST of Kobe's game winners missed, and not just the ones he made, you have zero argument.

[Bladers]

28) 01/13/10 - Lakers 100, Mavericks 95 (game-winning jumper with 28.9 seconds remaining)



Something tells me this wasn't a "game-winner" by ur definition (no one scored after the shot) seeing how the lakers won by 5. So clearly this whole list is BS

You two-timing hypocrite.
You were talking about this, and that was what I addressed.

9) 03/24/02 - Lakers 97, Kings 96 (fade-away jumper, 36 seconds remaining)

That was wrong, its "2.6" not 36.
I told you that, but now you switched unto another one.
So let me address it;

The game was tied and the last shot from Kobe was the game winner.:facepalm

Mavs didn't score after that.
The lakers won by 5 because the Mavs missed and fouled them to get another opportunity, so they went to the foul line to shoot freethrows..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ed5mxSHj7Hk#t=1m28s

[che guevara]

Jordan's game winner list is FAR from complete. I personally know of at least half a dozen shots that aren't list. AT LEAST.
Which ones are these?

[Bladers]

So kobe is 31 for 31 when he takes game winners?

That list shows zero of his game winners missed, and hence, is an incomplete and invalid list.

Show me proof that Kobe is better than 25% when taking game winners as 82games suggests.

You have yet to do this, and have done nothing but keep posting that same list which doesn't prove that he shoots a high percentage in those situations.



Also, Jordan supposedly only missed 26 game winners. And made 28, not 27.



Which makes MJ 28/54. 52% when taking game winners. Not counting FTs, that's 22/48. 46%, higher than Kobe's regular career FG%.

We know that Kobe has made 31 game winners (3 FTs), but how many has he missed? That's the question we're asking dude.

According to 82games, he's missed at least 42, and only during a 5 year span. Even if Kobe didn't miss any game winners outside of that span (which is obviously not true), he would still have a lower shooting % in clutch situations than MJ.

So like I said, until you post a LIST of Kobe's game winners missed, and not just the ones he made, you have zero argument.

WHERE TEH HELL DID YOU GET THAT FROM?
You just made it up?
How is that working out for you?
Very convenient?

You need to post credible SOURCE!

[Disaprine]

Bill Russell, there a reason why the finals mvp was named after him.

[jlauber]

I think the title of this thread should have been something along the lines of "who would want taking a game-winning shot" instead of greatest clutch player of all-time. Then MJ, Kobe, West, Miller, and a few others would be the answers.

But, "clutch" encompasses far more than taking a game-winning shot in the last second. As Regul8r posted, Russell's last-second DEFENSE was responsible for wins, as well. And, of course, in a BIG game, I would want my "clutch" player playing his best. In that regard, Russell probably has no peers. He stepped up big-time in his biggest games, and he led his team to an unbelieveable 10-0 record in game seven's.

[JustinJDW]

The greatest clutch guy, is the guy who isn't in clutch situations, and just wins damn games.You just blew my ****ing mind...

[SinJackal]

WHERE TEH HELL DID YOU GET THAT FROM?
You just made it up?
How is that working out for you?
Very convenient?

You need to post credible SOURCE!

The source was Jordan himself. Google it if you want, "Jordan's game winners". or game winners missed. Multiple sites will come up with that quote.

You also still haven't posted Kobe's shooting% when taking game winners. Trying to change the topic because you can't come up with ANY source and hence, have no point?

[OldSchoolBBall]

Which ones are these?

I posted a link to one earlier in the thread. I'll quote my own post w/links:



Btw, Jordan's list is woefully incomplete. I know of AT LEAST a half dozen shots that aren't on there, and I haven't seen nearly every Bulls game. Here's one example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQsp4DPsuro#t=1m52s

Now go compare that to his "official" game winning shot list on NBA.com or the OP of this topic. Guess what, it's not there, just like at least half a dozen others I know of. Here's a link to the box score:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199002250NJN.html


In addition to the above, off the top of my head, under the same criteria used for the game-winners list for guys like Kobe/Melo, they've excluded MJ's "flu game" 3 pointer to take the lead with 20-25 seconds left, a running floater vs. Cleveland in the '93 playoffs off the glass that put Chicago up 1 with 15 seconds left, a game vs. the Clippers from his rookie season, one vs. Milwaukee from his rookie season, one from Orlando circa '93. I have others listed on my old HD.

[nnn123]

You two-timing hypocrite.
You were talking about this, and that was what I addressed.

9) 03/24/02 - Lakers 97, Kings 96 (fade-away jumper, 36 seconds remaining)

That was wrong, its "2.6" not 36.
I told you that, but now you switched unto another one.
So let me address it;

The game was tied and the last shot from Kobe was the game winner.:facepalm

Mavs didn't score after that.
The lakers won by 5 because the Mavs missed and fouled them to get another opportunity, so they went to the foul line to shoot freethrows..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ed5mxSHj7Hk#t=1m28s



Ok retard, I know you're a bit slow here, you're not getting my point.

My original point was that Jordan's list ONLY includes shots under 10 seconds, whereas Kobe's are all over the place. I pointed out that there were games included where he scored wayyy before the 10 sec mark (even if the 35 second game was a mistake, theres the 28 second mark game that i pointed out).

My point here is that games like that are not included in Jordan's list...if they were, he would have far more than 27 game winners. Can you understand that? You're just twisting the rules now just to give Kobe the benefit

[Bladers]

The source was Jordan himself. Google it if you want, "Jordan's game winners". or game winners missed. Multiple sites will come up with that quote.

You also still haven't posted Kobe's shooting% when taking game winners. Trying to change the topic because you can't come up with ANY source and hence, have no point?

LMBO...:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
That is not a credible SOURCE..
Come on, try again.

[MasterDurant24]

So hitting a game winner shot while down isn't a pressure situation?
Is the first quarter a pressure situation?
What about the second?
Or the third?
NOPE..

Only with 2mins left in a one/two position game in the 4th quarter is the pressure really on. And most of the times, it leads to a game winning shot.
What I am saying that game winners don't make up most or even half of clutchness. Come on now.

[MasterDurant24]

List of Kobe's notable game-winners:

1) 05/09/99 - Lakers 101, Rockets 100 (playoffs, game-winning FTs with 5.3 seconds remaining)
2) 12/27/99 - Lakers 108, Mavericks 106 (game-winning FTs)
3) 05/10/00 - Lakers 97, Phoenix 96 (playoffs, jumper over Jason Kidd)
4) 11/16/00 - Lakers 112, Kings 110 (game-tying three for OT, OT jumper for win)
5) 02/07/01 - Lakers 85, Phoenix 83 (jumper with 2.7 seconds remaining)
6) 02/13/01 - Lakers 113, Nets 110 (OT game-winning layup with the And-1)
7) 01/02/02 - Lakers 87, Nuggets 86 (offensive reb and jumper)
8) 02/22/02 - Lakers 96, Hornets 94 (first career buzzer-beater, jumper)
9) 03/24/02 - Lakers 97, Kings 96 (fade-away jumper, 2.6 seconds remaining)
10) 05/12/02 - Lakers 87, Spurs 85 (playoffs, offensive rebound and put-back)
11) 12/06/02 - Lakers 105, Mavericks 103 (28-point game comeback, spin-around jumper)
12) 04/04/03 - Lakers 102, Grizzlies 101 (buzzer-beater, jumper)
13) 04/06/03 - Lakers 115, Suns 113 (GW jumper with 28.6 seconds remaining)
14) 12/19/03 - Lakers 101, Nuggets 99 (game after the trial, buzzer-beating fade-away)
15) 02/17/04 - Lakers 89, Blazers 86 (layup and the foul)
16) 03/21/04 - Lakers 104, Bucks 103 (OT jumper with 25 seconds remaining)
17) 04/14/04 - Lakers 105, Blazers 104 (game-tying three for OT, OT GW buzzer-beating three)
18) 03/13/05 - Lakers 117, Bobcats 116 (pump fake jumper for the win)
19) 11/02/05 - Lakers 99, Nuggets 97 (OT jumper after the Kwame brick)
20) 12/04/05 - Lakers 99, Bobcats 98 (game-winning FTs)
21) 01/12/06 - Lakers 99, Cavaliers 98 (jumper against Lebron with 8 seconds to go)
22) 04/30/06 - Lakers 99, Suns 98 (playoffs, game-tying tear drop for OT, and OT game-winning jumper)
23) 01/14/08 - Lakers 123, Sonics 121 (OT game-winning jumper)
24) 01/09/09 - Lakers 121, Pacers 119 (jumper against Jarrett Jack with 3 seconds to go)
25) 12/04/09 - Lakers 108, Heat 107 (game-winning buzzer-beating three over Wade)
26) 12/16/09 - Lakers 107, Bucks 106 (game-winning buzzer-beating jumper over Bell)
27) 01/01/10 - Lakers 109, Kings 108 (game-winning buzzer-beating three, 4.1 seconds left and 0.1 remaining)
28) 01/13/10 - Lakers 100, Mavericks 95 (game-winning jumper with 28.9 seconds remaining)
29) 01/31/10 - Lakers 90, Celtics 89 (game-winning jumper with 7 secs remaining)
30) 02/23/10 - Lakers 99, Grizzlies 98 (game-winning jumper with 4.3 seconds remaining)
31) 03/10/10 - Lakers 109, Raptors 107 (game-winning fade-away with 1.9 seconds remaining)
Where did you get that from?

[MasterDurant24]

You two-timing hypocrite.
You were talking about this, and that was what I addressed.

9) 03/24/02 - Lakers 97, Kings 96 (fade-away jumper, 36 seconds remaining)

That was wrong, its "2.6" not 36.
I told you that, but now you switched unto another one.
So let me address it;

The game was tied and the last shot from Kobe was the game winner.:facepalm

Mavs didn't score after that.
The lakers won by 5 because the Mavs missed and fouled them to get another opportunity, so they went to the foul line to shoot freethrows..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ed5mxSHj7Hk#t=1m28s
Not an example of being a hypocrite.

[Bladers]

Ok retard, I know you're a bit slow here, you're not getting my point.

My original point was that Jordan's list ONLY includes shots under 10 seconds, whereas Kobe's are all over the place. I pointed out that there were games included where he scored wayyy before the 10 sec mark (even if the 35 second game was a mistake, theres the 28 second mark game that i pointed out).

My point here is that games like that are not included in Jordan's list...if they were, he would have far more than 27 game winners. Can you understand that? You're just twisting the rules now just to give Kobe the benefit

Your the one who is dumb you retard...

Game winners are shots which win you the game when down by 1,2 or tied. and then the other team doesn't score after that.

That is the complete list of Jordan's game winner..
and according to my google searches it comes up to 25 in total.

[SinJackal]

LMBO...:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
That is not a credible SOURCE..
Come on, try again.

I already posted multiple sources. You just keep claiming they're not credible (your opinion) while producing no legitimate argument of your own.

Meanwhile you've posted zero sources, and contributed little more beyond your opinion besides that useless list of shots he has made, but not ones that he's taken and missed.

Even you would make more than 31 game winners in the NBA if I had enough attempts. That doesn't make you a better clutch shooter than MJ and Kobe. Just like if Kobe scores more than MJ's 32k points, it doesn't make him a better scorer since MJ scored more per game, more per year, more per game in the playoffs, and with better efficiancy. More shots made but way more attempts does not mean more clutch. It just means he took more shots.



I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. 26 times, I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed

Dude obviously couldn't let go of any shot he's missed or game he's lost.

MJ is a more credible source than you, me, or any poster.

and fyi, 82games is accurate, seeing as how it used NBA.com's play by play section to put up those stats.

[Bladers]

Where did you get that from?
Don't worry about where I got it from, just watch the video of them..:lol :lol
If you want to research them. Then google all the games...
But here are the videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U616sib8v-Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWOwv0tqtwA

That is as of 2009...So the one's in 2010 are not there.

[Bladers]

I already posted multiple sources. You just keep claiming they're not credible (your opinion) while producing no legitimate argument of your own.

Meanwhile you've posted zero sources, and contributed little more beyond your opinion besides that useless list of shots he has made, but not ones that he's taken and missed.

Even you would make more than 31 game winners in the NBA if I had enough attempts. That doesn't make you a better clutch shooter than MJ and Kobe. Just like if Kobe scores more than MJ's 32k points, it doesn't make him a better scorer since MJ scored more per game, more per year, more per game in the playoffs, and with better efficiancy. More shots made but way more attempts does not mean more clutch. It just means he took more shots.




Dude obviously couldn't let go of any shot he's missed or game he's lost.

MJ is a more credible source than you, me, or any poster.

and fyi, 82games is accurate, seeing as how it used NBA.com's play by play section to put up those stats.

Really? Watch them and tell me if you can make em.:facepalm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U616sib8v-Y (You couldn't even make the first one if they gave you one million tries.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWOwv0tqtwA

Also a credible source are multiple investigative journalistic facts which can be independently verified, not some guy's statement and claims..

[SinJackal]

Really? Watch them and tell me if you can make em.:facepalm

Also a credible source is a FACT which can be independently verified, not some guy;s statement and claims..

Watch what and tell you if I can make them? Those stupid videos?

Pay attention. With ENOUGH ATTEMPTS, even you, yes, I said YOU, not me, could make more than 31 game winners.

How dumb are you? Did I say either of us could make them as well as Kobe? No. As usual, the entire point, which I specifically spelled out for you as plainly as possible, is that even an ISH poster could make 31 game winners with ENOUGH ATTEMPTS, unless you think you couldn't make even one game winner in 100 tries? Do you really believe that? I know I could, in far less tries than that.

For example, in 1,000 tries, I'm sure even you could make 32 game winners. And even if you did, it wouldn't make you better than Kobe. Do you agree with that, or do you think it would make you better?

As for sources, 82games was credible, as it used NBA.com's play by play archives to make the list.

Saying it's wrong just proves you refuse to listen to reason and are just extremely biased.

[tpols]

Really? Watch them and tell me if you can make em.:facepalm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U616sib8v-Y (You couldn't even make the first one if they gave you one million tries.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWOwv0tqtwA

Also a credible source is a FACT which can be independently verified, not some guy;s statement and claims..
no one on this board is making the first or third shot.

[SinJackal]

no one on this board is making the first or third shot.

Nobody said anyone here could.

[tpols]

Watch what and tell you if I can make them? Those stupid videos?

Pay attention. With ENOUGH ATTEMPTS, even you, yes, I said YOU, not me, could make more than 31 game winners.

How dumb are you? Did I say either of us could make them as well as Kobe? No. As usual, the entire point, which I specifically spelled out for you as plainly as possible, is that even an ISH poster could make 31 game winners with ENOUGH ATTEMPTS, unless you think you couldn't make even one game winner in 100 tries? Do you really believe that? I know I could, in far less tries than that.

For example, in 1,000 tries, I'm sure even you could make 32 game winners. And even if you did, it wouldn't make you better than Kobe. Do you agree with that, or do you think it would make you better?

As for sources, 82games was credible, as it used NBA.com's play by play archives to make the list.

Saying it's wrong just proves you refuse to listen to reason and are just extremely biased.
honestly, if we're talking about game winning shots in the NBA, where a 6'7 or 6'8 guy is put on me (or you) thats quicker, longer, and better than me I don't think I, or any of us, could even make 32 out of 1000 unless we ran backwards and tossed it like a football at the rim.

[Bladers]

Watch what and tell you if I can make them? Those stupid videos?


So the videos are stupid? So I guess the videos of MJ's Game Winners are stupid aswell... Heck with that kind of Logic, every NBA video is stupid...:confusedshrug:



Pay attention. With ENOUGH ATTEMPTS, even you, yes, I said YOU, not me, could make more than 31 game winners.

How dumb are you? Did I say either of us could make them as well as Kobe? No. As usual, the entire point, which I specifically spelled out for you as plainly as possible, is that even an ISH poster could make 31 game winners with ENOUGH ATTEMPTS


I doubt you are thinking before you type.
WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE NBA, not some backyard pickup game.
Your logic totally fails because no ISH Poster would be able to make 31 game winners in 1000 attempts , It's not a 3-point shootout.

And I hope you know that game-winners are not catch and shoot right?
You actually create your own shot. :rolleyes:




, unless you think you couldn't make even one game winner in 100 tries? Do you really believe that? I know I could, in far less tries than that.


Again, Game-winners are not catch and shoot, they are not predefined, nor preplanned, they are not scripted, they are birth from the moment. This isn't the WWE..



For example, in 1,000 tries, I'm sure even you could make 32 game winners. And even if you did, it wouldn't make you better than Kobe. Do you agree with that, or do you think it would make you better?

Your logic is flawed.:confusedshrug:
I'm not in the NBA...
And if I were, I won't be able to make 32 GW in 1,000 and Neither would you.




As for sources, 82games was credible, as it used NBA.com's play by play archives to make the list.

Saying it's wrong just proves you refuse to listen to reason and are just extremely biased.

Its wrong because it states that Kobe only has 14 GW while he clearly has 31.
So why would I listen to it?

[ThaRegul8r]

I think the title of this thread should have been something along the lines of "who would want taking a game-winning shot" instead of greatest clutch player of all-time. Then MJ, Kobe, West, Miller, and a few others would be the answers.

It's silly that clutchness is viewed as ONLY hitting game-winning shots. While game-winning shots are clutch, there's more to being clutch. As I said, it just gives Kobe fans a chance to claim Kobe is #1.


But, "clutch" encompasses far more than taking a game-winning shot in the last second. As Regul8r posted, Russell's last-second DEFENSE was responsible for wins, as well. And, of course, in a BIG game, I would want my "clutch" player playing his best. In that regard, Russell probably has no peers. He stepped up big-time in his biggest games, and he led his team to an unbelieveable 10-0 record in game seven's.

Exactly. What more do you want? To step up when the games are biggest. 10 Game 7s is definitely a big enough sample size with which to judge performance. Imagine the confidence a team would have should it go to the limit, knowing that the leader of the team NEVER allows the team to lose, and will do whatever it takes to ensure that you get the "W" when the final buzzer sounds. Gene Conley, who played three seasons with Russell from 1958-59 to 1960-61, winning three NBA titles, said,

[jlauber]

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]It's silly that clutchness is viewed as ONLY hitting game-winning shots. While game-winning shots are clutch, there's more to being clutch. As I said, it just gives Kobe fans a chance to claim Kobe is #1.



Exactly. What more do you want? To step up when the games are biggest. 10 Game 7s is definitely a big enough sample size with which to judge performance. Imagine the confidence a team would have should it go to the limit, knowing that the leader of the team NEVER allows the team to lose, and will do whatever it takes to ensure that you get the "W" when the final buzzer sounds. Gene Conley, who played three seasons with Russell from 1958-59 to 1960-61, winning three NBA titles, said,

[SinJackal]

honestly, if we're talking about game winning shots in the NBA, where a 6'7 or 6'8 guy is put on me (or you) thats quicker, longer, and better than me I don't think I, or any of us, could even make 32 out of 1000 unless we ran backwards and tossed it like a football at the rim.

I guess it's impossible to get open and have someone pass you the ball to take an open shot for a game winner then? -_-

Not every shot has to be where you catch the ball with a guy on you and go man to man and try to score. And not every game winner Kobe made was that way either.

And as you said, even if you dribbled to the side and threw up some hookshot, you would make 32 of 1,000. 1,000 doesn't have to be the limit either. My point was, that anybody, given enough attempts, can make 32 game winners, and because of that, the volume of winners shouldn't matter, but the effectiveness of the player who is shooting them. If I make 32 of 1,000, it's obviously worse than 31 of 124. And 31/124 is worse than 28/54. That's my point.



So the videos are stupid? So I guess the videos of MJ's Game Winners are stupid aswell... Heck with that kind of Logic, every NBA video is stupid...:confusedshrug:



I doubt you are thinking before you type.
WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE NBA, not some backyard pickup game.
Your logic totally fails because no ISH Poster would be able to make 31 game winners in 1000 attempts , It's not a 3-point shootout.

And I hope you know that game-winners are not catch and shoot right?
You actually create your own shot. :rolleyes:




Again, Game-winners are not catch and shoot, they are not predefined, nor preplanned, they are not scripted, they are birth from the moment. This isn't the WWE..


Your logic is flawed.:confusedshrug:
I'm not in the NBA...
And if I were, I won't be able to make 32 GW in 1,000 and Neither would you.



Its wrong because it states that Kobe only has 14 GW while he clearly has 31.
So why would I listen to it?

The videos are stupid because they don't counter my point in the slightest. They were a waste of my time to even look at seeing as how they meant nothing to the discussion.

Also, LOL, at saying "it's not a game winner unless you make your own shot". it's a game winner if you shoot and it goes in, period. If Pierce passes the ball to a wide open Ray Allen and he hits a three at the buzzer to win the game, that is a game winning three. Talk about ignorance.. .you're killing yourself here son.

Game winners are predefined. Otherwise we wouldn't know that Kobe was 14/56 when taking game winners from '03-'08. And you wouldn't have a list of game winners that lists dozens of shots that were not buzzer beaters, because they fall into the definition that was used for "game winners made" for Kobe. Once again, your logic fails.

And it's not wrong because it says Kobe has 14. It says Kobe has 14 from '03-'08. Is his entire career '03-'08? No. He has more game winners outside of that span. That specific time span was used because it displays Kobe's prime years as (supposedly) best player in the NBA, and also conicidently is also LeBron's first 5 seasons in the league.

You should listen to it because it factually shows how "good" Kobe has been when taking game winners during his prime. The only reason you have to not listen to it is because you don't like to see his FG%. If it said Kobe was 14/20, you would be ranting about how it says he has a 70% game winner %. The only reason you are crying over it now is because it proves that Kobe is in fact not clutch, and only has more game winners than everyone else in the league because he takes a much larger volume of them than anyone else.

And that is my point, as to why MJ is a better clutch shooter than Kobe. In 50 situations, Jordan would make 25-26. Kobe would make roughly 15 statistically, based on his prime's shooting % in game winning situations.


And just for good measure, I'll throw this in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws2yhBzJjis

Be glad that site isn't including his first few years.

[whatever666]

There is no way of finding that out without facts.... but i would guess its between Reggie Miller, Michael Jordan and Larry Bird.

I would not be surprised if Reggie won by facts, he has for 18 years been the go to guy in the clutch and made some serious total clutch damage...

[Bladers]

I guess it's impossible to get open and have someone pass you the ball to take an open shot for a game winner then? -_-

Not every shot has to be where you catch the ball with a guy on you and go man to man and try to score. And not every game winner Kobe made was that way either.

And as you said, even if you dribbled to the side and threw up some hookshot, you would make 32 of 1,000. 1,000 doesn't have to be the limit either. My point was, that anybody, given enough attempts, can make 32 game winners, and because of that, the volume of winners shouldn't matter, but the effectiveness of the player who is shooting them. If I make 32 of 1,000, it's obviously worse than 31 of 124. And 31/124 is worse than 28/54. That's my point.




The videos are stupid because they don't counter my point in the slightest. They were a waste of my time to even look at seeing as how they meant nothing to the discussion.

Also, LOL, at saying "it's not a game winner unless you make your own shot". it's a game winner if you shoot and it goes in, period. If Pierce passes the ball to a wide open Ray Allen and he hits a three at the buzzer to win the game, that is a game winning three. Talk about ignorance.. .you're killing yourself here son.

Game winners are predefined. Otherwise we wouldn't know that Kobe was 14/56 when taking game winners from '03-'08. And you wouldn't have a list of game winners that lists dozens of shots that were not buzzer beaters, because they fall into the definition that was used for "game winners made" for Kobe. Once again, your logic fails.

And it's not wrong because it says Kobe has 14. It says Kobe has 14 from '03-'08. Is his entire career '03-'08? No. He has more game winners outside of that span. That specific time span was used because it displays Kobe's prime years as (supposedly) best player in the NBA, and also conicidently is also LeBron's first 5 seasons in the league.

You should listen to it because it factually shows how "good" Kobe has been when taking game winners during his prime. The only reason you have to not listen to it is because you don't like to see his FG%. If it said Kobe was 14/20, you would be ranting about how it says he has a 70% game winner %. The only reason you are crying over it now is because it proves that Kobe is in fact not clutch, and only has more game winners than everyone else in the league because he takes a much larger volume of them than anyone else.

And that is my point, as to why MJ is a better clutch shooter than Kobe. In 50 situations, Jordan would make 25-26. Kobe would make roughly 15 statistically, based on his prime's shooting % in game winning situations.


And just for good measure, I'll throw this in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws2yhBzJjis

Be glad that site isn't including his first few years.

Please watch this and tell me if that's how you still feel about Kobe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBYLkNDndIU

[jlauber]

I give up...

[tpols]

I guess it's impossible to get open and have someone pass you the ball to take an open shot for a game winner then? -_-

Not every shot has to be where you catch the ball with a guy on you and go man to man and try to score. And not every game winner Kobe made was that way either.

And as you said, even if you dribbled to the side and threw up some hookshot, you would make 32 of 1,000. 1,000 doesn't have to be the limit either. My point was, that anybody, given enough attempts, can make 32 game winners, and because of that, the volume of winners shouldn't matter, but the effectiveness of the player who is shooting them. If I make 32 of 1,000, it's obviously worse than 31 of 124. And 31/124 is worse than 28/54. That's my point.




The videos are stupid because they don't counter my point in the slightest. They were a waste of my time to even look at seeing as how they meant nothing to the discussion.

Also, LOL, at saying "it's not a game winner unless you make your own shot". it's a game winner if you shoot and it goes in, period. If Pierce passes the ball to a wide open Ray Allen and he hits a three at the buzzer to win the game, that is a game winning three. Talk about ignorance.. .you're killing yourself here son.

Game winners are predefined. Otherwise we wouldn't know that Kobe was 14/56 when taking game winners from '03-'08. And you wouldn't have a list of game winners that lists dozens of shots that were not buzzer beaters, because they fall into the definition that was used for "game winners made" for Kobe. Once again, your logic fails.

And it's not wrong because it says Kobe has 14. It says Kobe has 14 from '03-'08. Is his entire career '03-'08? No. He has more game winners outside of that span. That specific time span was used because it displays Kobe's prime years as (supposedly) best player in the NBA, and also conicidently is also LeBron's first 5 seasons in the league.

You should listen to it because it factually shows how "good" Kobe has been when taking game winners during his prime. The only reason you have to not listen to it is because you don't like to see his FG%. If it said Kobe was 14/20, you would be ranting about how it says he has a 70% game winner %. The only reason you are crying over it now is because it proves that Kobe is in fact not clutch, and only has more game winners than everyone else in the league because he takes a much larger volume of them than anyone else.

And that is my point, as to why MJ is a better clutch shooter than Kobe. In 50 situations, Jordan would make 25-26. Kobe would make roughly 15 statistically, based on his prime's shooting % in game winning situations.


And just for good measure, I'll throw this in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws2yhBzJjis

Be glad that site isn't including his first few years.
Wait but we were referencing kobe's shots. We were saying that you couldn't make 32 out of 1000 of kobe's shots.

If you can point me to the shot where kobe was wide open to take the shot I'll gladly concede.:lol Kobe always had a defender on him and another one to collapse on him after he took a dribble or two.

You would NOT make 32 of 1000 shots going iso one on one with a guy like ron artest or tayshaun prince and then another guy converging on you. You'd probably make 3 or 5 extremely lucky ones.

Kobe has been one of the most clutch guys in the league and 95% of this board including good posters would admit this. He has absolutely no fear of the big moment and, actually, loves taking those shots in the final moments. You're trolling hard if you think kobe isn't clutch.

[Bladers]

Also, LOL, at saying "it's not a game winner unless you make your own shot". it's a game winner if you shoot and it goes in, period. If Pierce passes the ball to a wide open Ray Allen and he hits a three at the buzzer to win the game, that is a game winning three. Talk about ignorance.. .you're killing yourself here son.


That is exactly my point, it won't happen. You wouldn't get wide open shot 1,000 shots.



Game winners are predefined. Otherwise we wouldn't know that Kobe was 14/56 when taking game winners from '03-'08. And you wouldn't have a list of game winners that lists dozens of shots that were not buzzer beaters, because they fall into the definition that was used for "game winners made" for Kobe. Once again, your logic fails.


Gamewinners are not predefined. You don't walk up on the court and say, Today i will hit a gamewinner.
That is what i mean. You said if you take 1,000 tries, but that is not how it works... You get a game-winning opportunity once in every 10-20 games...
Its spontaneous, its not pre-planned.



And it's not wrong because it says Kobe has 14. It says Kobe has 14 from '03-'08. Is his entire career '03-'08? No. He has more game winners outside of that span. That specific time span was used because it displays Kobe's prime years as (supposedly) best player in the NBA, and also conicidently is also LeBron's first 5 seasons in the league.

Yes its wrong because he now has a total of 31.
Why would anyone regard an outdated misleading stat?
Why even quote it, ITS WRONG.
Point Blank.



You should listen to it because it factually shows how "good" Kobe has been when taking game winners during his prime. The only reason you have to not listen to it is because you don't like to see his FG%. If it said Kobe was 14/20, you would be ranting about how it says he has a 70% game winner %.

No I won't because I have to add in his whole career, you can't just pull stuff out of context and use them. Kobe has 31 GW in his whole career and Jordan has 25, deal with it.



The only reason you are crying over it now is because it proves that Kobe is in fact not clutch, and only has more game winners than everyone else in the league because he takes a much larger volume of them than anyone else.

It only proves how gullible you are using a wrong misleading outdated stat to support your opinion.



And that is my point, as to why MJ is a better clutch shooter than Kobe. In 50 situations, Jordan would make 25-26. Kobe would make roughly 15 statistically, based on his prime's shooting % in game winning situations.

You have yet to provide a credible source, until then...
Your just blowing smoke.



And just for good measure, I'll throw this in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws2yhBzJjis

Be glad that site isn't including his first few years.

What does that prove?
Do you want me to post videos of Jordan's Airballs?

[SinJackal]

Please watch this and tell me if that's how you still feel about Kobe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBYLkNDndIU

Not sure what I just watched there.

Did you expect me to like break down and cry and change my mind or something? The only thing I thought was that the music was bad and that it was a cheesy video.



Wait but we were referencing kobe's shots. We were saying that you couldn't make 32 out of 1000 of kobe's shots.

I never said that, so it's irrelevant. My point was that I could make 32 of 1,000 game winning shot attempts, which is barely 3%.



You would NOT make 32 of 1000 shots going iso one on one with a guy like ron artest or tayshaun prince and then another guy converging on you. You'd probably make 3 or 5 extremely lucky ones.

Again, I didn't say I could break people down and score on them, so it's irrelevant. My point was that Kobe might have 31 game winners, but if he takes twice as many as MJ who has nearly as many, that doesn't make him more clutch because he had to take so many more shots to make them.

Just like, if I make 32 game winners on 3% or less, it doesn't make me better than Kobe. You keep trying to change the subject because you can't refute my point.




Kobe has been one of the most clutch guys in the league and 95% of this board including good posters would admit this. He has absolutely no fear of the big moment and, actually, loves taking those shots in the final moments. You're trolling hard if you think kobe isn't clutch.

Other than MJ, who you're debating was inferior to Kobe when it comes to making clutch shots.

[tpols]

Not sure what I just watched there.

Did you expect me to like break down and cry and change my mind or something? The only thing I thought was that the music was bad and that it was a cheesy video.




I never said that, so it's irrelevant. My point was that I could make 32 of 1,000 game winning shot attempts, which is barely 3%.




Again, I didn't say I could break people down and score on them, so it's irrelevant. My point was that Kobe might have 31 game winners, but if he takes twice as many as MJ who has nearly as many, that doesn't make him more clutch because he had to take so many more shots to make them.

Just like, if I make 32 game winners on 3% or less, it doesn't make me better than Kobe. You keep trying to change the subject because you can't refute my point.





Other than MJ, who you're debating was inferior to Kobe when it comes to making clutch shots.
show me the post where I said kobe was more clutch than mj. I believe the opposite. But kobe is still one of the clutchest in the history of the league and the most clutch since jordan.

Your point is kobe took more shots which is why he made more game winners. This may be true but it may not. You haven't provided any true evidence on the efficiency with which they make shots with a very small amount of time left.

[SinJackal]

That is exactly my point, it won't happen. You wouldn't get wide open shot 1,000 shots.

Didn't say I would get 1,000 open shots. If I was open, I would be shooting a hell of a lot better than 3% in any case.




Gamewinners are not predefined. You don't walk up on the court and say, Today i will hit a gamewinner.

If game winners aren't defined, then how does anyone know how many game winners any player has? If there's no definition for it, then nobody has hit any game winners.

Logic fail once again.


Its spontaneous, its not pre-planned.

No one said it was anything but that, and hence, a pointless comment. You're making arguments to things nobody has argued.



Yes its wrong because he now has a total of 31.
Why would anyone regard an outdated misleading stat?
Why even quote it, ITS WRONG.
Point Blank.

So Kobe had all his game winners in '03-'08 then?

You're saying it's wrong, but continue to blissfully ignore that those are his FGAs over a 5 year period, and not his career. Why keep saying he has more game winners than the site lists when nobody has said he only had game winners in the 5 year period that site used?

Once again, you're making arguments to things that have never been said, failing to make a single point to refute anything I've said. STILL.

You could have not made any posts at all and made as many points as you have tonight.



No I won't because I have to add in his whole career, you can't just pull stuff out of context and use them.

If it's Kobe shooting the ball, it's in context. It's also his 5 year prime, which is as "in context" as it can possibly get.


Kobe has 31 GW in his whole career and Jordan has 31, deal with it

Jordan doesn't have 31 game winners.

And Kobe might have a few more makes, but Jordan makes them at a 52% rate. Kobe made them at a 25% rate during his prime. This means Kobe has bricked more than twice as many game winners as MJ. Deal with it~



It only proves how gullible you are using a wrong misleading outdated state to support your opinion.

Outdated? It's Kobe's prime. And it's not misleading at all. Look at the site more closely. You just think it's misleading because it proves Kobe can't hit game winners at a good rate.

And fyi, if you want to debate the definition of "game winning shot" that the site used, feel free. But don't forget that if you do that, it will take away several of the game winning shots (by definition) that Kobe has made, dropping him below MJ's 28.



You have yet to provide a credible source, until then...
Your just blowing smoke.

Already did. 82games, which uses NBA.com's stat sheets.

All you're doing is crying about the sources I used because they proved me to be right. You haven't posted any sources that say Kobe is more efficant than that, and hence, you have no argument since you have absolutely no idea how many game winners Kobe has missed, and hence, have no argument.




show me the post where I said kobe was more clutch than mj. I believe the opposite. But kobe is still one of the clutchest in the history of the league and the most clutch since jordan.

Your point is kobe took more shots which is why he made more game winners. This may be true but it may not. You haven't provided any true evidence on the efficiency with which they make shots with a very small amount of time left.

You're debating with me, who was making the point that MJ was more clutch than Kobe, and keep debating my points about it.

If you aren't debating that Kobe is more clutch than MJ, then what ARE you doing?

And fyi, I have posted evidence already. if you want, I'll do it again.

http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm


Enjoy. Sampling of game winners taken during Kobe's prime. '03-'08, including first half of '08 season.

[Bladers]

I never said that, so it's irrelevant. My point was that I could make 32 of 1,000 game winning shot attempts, which is barely 3%.

Again, I didn't say I could break people down and score on them, so it's irrelevant. My point was that Kobe might have 31 game winners, but if he takes twice as many as MJ who has nearly as many, that doesn't make him more clutch because he had to take so many more shots to make them.

So you're expecting to get wide open Game winning shots in the NBA?
:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

and the worst of all is that you are putting wide open shots with Kobe in the same sentence.:facepalm
IF you are going to compare yourself to Kobe, you don't take wide open shots.

Also, I never once said Kobe is a better Clutch player than MJ, nor that he is the best. I said Kobe has more GW and I still stick with that. But I also wanted to see how far a Jordan homer would go to defend him, and you went pretty far.
:applause: :applause:

Nevertheless, Kobe has 31 GW shots to Jordan's 25.
That is the only fact in this thread.

[SinJackal]

So you're expecting to get wide open Game winning shots in the NBA?
:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

and the worst of all is that you are putting wide open shots with Kobe in the same sentence.:facepalm
IF you are going to compare yourself to Kobe, you don't take wide open shots.

Also, I never once said Kobe is a better Clutch player than MJ, nor that he is the best. I said Kobe has more GW and I still stick with that. But I also wanted to see how far a Jordan homer would go to defend him, and you went pretty far.
:applause: :applause:

Nevertheless, Kobe has 31 GW shots to Jordan's 25.
That is the only fact in this thread.

You once again fail to understand the logic behind the hypothetical situation I'm talking about.

Fine. Since you're so nitpicky, we'll change the hypothetical crappy shooter to some scrub basketball player.

We'll use Keith Bogans. Let's say Keith Bogans make 32 game winners in 500 tries. Does that make him more clutch than Kobe?

If the answer is no, then you admit that Kobe is less clutch than MJ, since MJ has made his 28 game winners in half/less than half the attempts it took Kobe to get his 31.

You also did say Kobe was more clutch than MJ, and kept debating it. Now that you know you've lost, you're backpeddaling. Whatever.

[tpols]

You're debating with me, who was making the point that MJ was more clutch than Kobe, and keep debating my points about it.

If you aren't debating that Kobe is more clutch than MJ, then what ARE you doing?

And fyi, I have posted evidence already. if you want, I'll do it again.

http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm


Enjoy. Sampling of game winners taken during Kobe's prime. '03-'08, including first half of '08 season.
What am I doing? I'm supporting the fact that kobe is a clutch player something you say you don't believe. You're using hyperbole so much man. You're talking efficiency like kobe has taken 2000 game winners and only made 30 of them to dispute the fact that he has won more games in the final seconds than jordan.

Let me repeat that. Kobe has won more games in the final seconds than jordan. That is a FACT. Does it mean he's more clutch? No, because a lot more goes into being clutch than shooting in the final seconds of a game. But does it speak to the fact that he's a clutch player? Yes.

If passing jordan on game winners doesn't qualify as clutch in your book then I don't know what to tell you.:confusedshrug:

[Bladers]

Didn't say I would get 1,000 open shots. If I was open, I would be shooting a hell of a lot better than 3% in any case.

But the reality is that you won't be open.

I said, pre-defined not defined, so check your dictionary.
Its not pointless to say GW are spontaneous because you said "If you attempted 1,000 GW you would make atleast 32."
Why look at a 5 year sample, Why not look at his whole career.
He has 31 in his whole career and that is all that matters.
Prime is not the context here, Game Winners are.
You don't judge a players Game winners in 5 years, you do it throughout his whole career.

Jordan does not make it at 52%, you have no source for that so STFU.

[SinJackal]

What am I doing? I'm supporting the fact that kobe is a clutch player something you say you don't believe. You're using hyperbole so much man. You're talking efficiency like kobe has taken 2000 game winners and only made 30 of them to dispute the fact that he has won more games in the final seconds than jordan.

Let me repeat that. Kobe has won more games in the final seconds than jordan. That is a FACT. Does it mean he's more clutch? No, because a lot more goes into being clutch than shooting in the final seconds of a game. But does it speak to the fact that he's a clutch player? Yes.

If passing jordan on game winners doesn't qualify as clutch in your book then I don't know what to tell you.:confusedshrug:

I didn't say he wasn't clutch at any point. So again, what are you debating with me exactly, besides that you are obviously trying to debate that Kobe is more clutch than MJ?

I said MJ was the most clutch player of all time, and people began to reply to me saying it's Kobe and not MJ, hence the debate.

And I feel Jordan is more clutch because he makes them at a much higher percentage than Kobe. Making a few more doesn't make Kobe more clutch, just like scoring more than 32,000 won't make him a better scorer than MJ. That's it.



Jordan does not make it at 52%, you have no source for that so STFU.

Prove he didn't, if not. . .


http://anomit.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/1b957c3f7e8f1e8eaa905e683e84d89c.jpg

[SuperPippen]

So you're expecting to get wide open Game winning shots in the NBA?
:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

and the worst of all is that you are putting wide open shots with Kobe in the same sentence.:facepalm
IF you are going to compare yourself to Kobe, you don't take wide open shots.

Also, I never once said Kobe is a better Clutch player than MJ, nor that he is the best. I said Kobe has more GW and I still stick with that. But I also wanted to see how far a Jordan homer would go to defend him, and you went pretty far.
:applause: :applause:

Nevertheless, Kobe has 31 GW shots to Jordan's 25.
That is the only fact in this thread.

Dude, you seriously need to just shut the hell up. Your disgustingly inane logic has been shot down time and time again, and yet you continue to clutch at straws and pretend you weren't arguing that MJ is more clutch than Kobe, which you obviously were.

Plainly and simply, you're an idiot.

[Bladers]

You once again fail to understand the logic behind the hypothetical situation I'm talking about.

Fine. Since you're so nitpicky, we'll change the hypothetical crappy shooter to some scrub basketball player.

We'll use Keith Bogans. Let's say Keith Bogans make 32 game winners in 500 tries. Does that make him more clutch than Kobe?

If the answer is no, then you admit that Kobe is less clutch than MJ, since MJ has made his 28 game winners in half/less than half the attempts it took Kobe to get his 31.

You also did say Kobe was more clutch than MJ, and kept debating it. Now that you know you've lost, you're backpeddaling. Whatever.

Please look back and find a post of me saying Kobe is more clutch than MJ? Please...

Who in the world is Keith Bogans?
Nevertheless, It proves nothing, You can't look at 5 years of a player's performance and draw a conclusion. For Ex: Kobe made 7 out of 10 last season.
You don't have the number of attempts for Kobe's whole career nor Jordan's whole career. So why bother?

[tpols]

I didn't say he wasn't clutch at any point. So again, what are you debating with me exactly, besides that you are obviously trying to debate that Kobe is more clutch than MJ?

I said MJ was the most clutch player of all time, and people began to reply to me saying it's Kobe and not MJ, hence the debate.

And I feel Jordan is more clutch because he makes them at a much higher percentage than Kobe. Making a few more doesn't make Kobe more clutch, just like scoring more than 32,000 won't make him a better scorer than MJ. That's it.

Okay lets see...

You said kobe would only make as many game winners as jordan if he were given twice the amount of shots. I guess this is because kobe's work ethic, killer instinct, and jumpshot (:lol ) were so much worse than jordan's. :rolleyes: I'm not saying he'd make more game winners than jordan but I don't think it would be that big of a difference. (the fact that you say jordan would make twice as many qualifies you as a troll; the fact that you only reference a 5 year span out of kobe's 14 year career makes you not only biased, it makes your posts subjective and irrelevant)

[SinJackal]

Okay lets see...

You said kobe would only make as many game winners as jordan if he were given twice the amount of shots. I guess this is because kobe's work ethic, killer instinct, and jumpshot (:lol ) were so much worse than jordan's. :rolleyes: I'm not saying he'd make more game winners than jordan but I don't think it would be that big of a difference. (the fact that you say jordan would make twice as many qualifies you as a troll; the fact that you only reference a 5 year span out of kobe's 14 year career makes you not only biased, it makes your posts subjective and irrelevant)

Jordan has only taken just over 50 and has 28.

Kobe took over 50 in that 5 year span, and has a total of 31.

How does pointing out that fact make me a troll? If you think I'm a troll, you're just overly sensitive and emo. Sorry to break it to you, but if someone posts a stat that proves that Kobe is bad at something during a discussion about it. . .or that some player is better than him at something, does not in fact make them a troll. I don't think you know what the word troll means if you think that.

And the reference I made about his FG% with game winners was the only one I could find, it doesn't make me biased. Feel free to try and find another one, or simply look for one and you will see that is the only one available.

You can pretend my posts were irrelevant if you want, but I'm the only one who's posted actual stats. You're just trying to attack my credibility because you don' like the fact that the site I posted used a 5 year span where Kobe was clearly bad at making game winners, and you're mad because it shows him to not be as clutch as you would love everyone to believe.

[Bladers]

Okay lets see...

You said kobe would only make as many game winners as jordan if he were given twice the amount of shots. I guess this is because kobe's work ethic, killer instinct, and jumpshot (:lol ) were so much worse than jordan's. :rolleyes: I'm not saying he'd make more game winners than jordan but I don't think it would be that big of a difference. (the fact that you say jordan would make twice as many qualifies you as a troll; the fact that you only reference a 5 year span out of kobe's 14 year career makes you not only biased, it makes your posts subjective and irrelevant)

Trolls use the only thing they find convenient to them..
So when he found the 5 year stats, he jumped on it.
I don't blame him though, :oldlol:

[Bladers]

Jordan has only taken just over 50 and has 28.


Prove it or GTFO!

[zizozain]

Game winners are only a fraction of clutch play.
you're right ..
do you think this stats part of clutch ?
cause all posters who chose mj had no comments about it.


Kobe Bryant has the all-time lead for 30-point playoff road games when his team has the chance to clinch.

Kobe Bryant 8
Elgin Baylor 6
Michael Jordan 5
Oscar Robertson 4

[tpols]

Jordan has only taken just over 50 and has 28.

Kobe took over 50 in that 5 year span, and has a total of 31.

How does pointing out that fact make me a troll? If you think I'm a troll, you're just overly sensitive and emo. Sorry to break it to you, but if someone posts a stat that proves that Kobe is bad at something during a discussion about it. . .or that some player is better than him at something, does not in fact make them a troll. I don't think you know what the word troll means if you think that.

And the reference I made about his FG% with game winners was the only one I could find, it doesn't make me biased. Feel free to try and find another one, or simply look for one and you will see that is the only one available.

You can pretend my posts were irrelevant if you want, but I'm the only one who's posted actual stats. You're just trying to attack my credibility because you don' like the fact that the site I posted used a 5 year span where Kobe was clearly bad at making game winners, and you're mad because it shows him to not be as clutch as you would love everyone to believe.
okay... right now your stats don't show anything about kobe's % because they don't tell of the total amount of game winning shots he's taken. Is it probable that jordan shot better in the final moments of games? Yes. Is it by a margin of 25%? Obviously not. You're just trolling, and making things up that are convenient for your player. On top of all this, you don't have any true evidence for how many shots in the final seconds jordan has missed. You're using a nike advertisement as your credible source?:lol GTFO man.

[SinJackal]

Prove it or GTFO!

There are no sites on the internet with a list of MJ's game winners attempted. MJ says he's missed 26, which are a lot of misses.

Prove that he's wrong, rather than keep talking out of your troll ass because you can't make a single non opinionated point that isn't torn apart within seconds.

What I can prove, is how good their shooting is in the finals, if you want to talk about that. Of course, you know Kobe barely shoots 41% in the finals and MJ shotos 50%, so you wouldn't want to have that argument.

We could talk about overall efficiancy or PPG, but MJ kills Kobe there too, so you won't want to talk about that.

We could talk about the fact that Kobe shot game winners at 25% during his prime, but you're just going to whine that the site's biased when it obviously isn't.

We could talk about how Kobe leads the league in game winners missed, but then you will just cry about the definition of what a game winner is.


So again, rather than demand I find a stat that is nowhere to be found on the net, prove that you're correct, rather than act like you're right because an exact stat for it isn't found anywhere on the net.

I have proved that Kobe isn't clutch (25%). You haven't proved anything yet besides that you're a troll. Something we already knew though.



okay... right now your stats don't show anything about kobe's % because they don't tell of the total amount of game winning shots he's taken. Is it probable that jordan shot better in the final moments of games? Yes. Is it by a margin of 25%? Obviously not. You're just trolling, and making things up that are convenient for your player. On top of all this, you don't have any true evidence for how many shots in the final seconds jordan has missed. You're using a nike advertisement as your credible source?:lol GTFO man.

Give me a source that shows how many he's missed then.

You realize, both you and Bladers are claiming that I'm wrong, and yet you don't know how many he's missed yourselves.

Hypocrite much?

[tpols]

There are no sites on the internet with a list of MJ's game winners attempted. MJ says he's missed 26, which are a lot of misses.

Prove that he's wrong, rather than keep talking out of your troll ass because you can't make a single non opinionated point that isn't torn apart within seconds.

What I can prove, is how good their shooting is in the finals, if you want to talk about that. Of course, you know Kobe barely shoots 41% in the finals and MJ shotos 50%, so you wouldn't want to have that argument.

We could talk about overall efficiancy or PPG, but MJ kills Kobe there too, so you won't want to talk about that.

We could talk about the fact that Kobe shot game winners at 25% during his prime, but you're just going to whine that the site's biased when it obviously isn't.

We could talk about how Kobe leads the league in game winners missed, but then you will just cry about the definition of what a game winner is.


So again, rather than demand I find a stat that is nowhere to be found on the net, prove that you're correct, rather than act like you're right because an exact stat for it isn't found anywhere on the net.

I have proved that Kobe isn't clutch (25%). You haven't proved anything yet besides that you're a troll. Something we already knew though.




Give me a source that shows how many he's missed then.

You realize, both you and Bladers are claiming that I'm wrong, and yet you don't know how many he's missed yourselves.

Hypocrite much?
alright case closed. He lost the argument and now wants us to find the evidence for him.:lol

Changing the argument to finals shooting was icing on the cake.:pimp:

[SinJackal]

alright case closed. He lost the argument and now wants us to find the evidence for him.:lol

Changing the argument to finals shooting was icing on the cake.:pimp:

You're debating that the evidence I have given is incorrect.

You are therefore responsible to produce evidence that proves the evidence I have already given is incorrect, and yet you're trying to turn it around on me and ask for more than the two sources I have already given, to disprove your OPINION, which has ZERO sources backing it up. . .vs my two.

I respectuflly ask that you gtfo with your hypocrisy.


And here's a comparison of Kobe and MJ

http://hoopsapedia.webs.com/kobevsjordan.htm


Jordan wins in nearly every conceivable way, and has done so for his entire career. You only wish Kobe shoots better in game winning shot situations. You know deep down that he doesn't.

[tpols]

You're debating that the evidence I have given is incorrect.

You are therefore responsible to produce evidence that proves the evidence I have already given is incorrect, and yet you're trying to turn it around on me and ask for more than the two sources I have already given, to disprove your OPINION, which has ZERO sources backing it up. . .vs my two.

I respectuflly ask that you gtfo with your hypocrisy.


And here's a comparison of Kobe and MJ

http://hoopsapedia.webs.com/kobevsjordan.htm


Jordan wins in nearly every conceivable way, and has done so for his entire career. You only wish Kobe shoots better in game winning shot situations. You know deep down that he doesn't.
You quoted a NIKE AD! That's your evidence for why jordan's a more efficient shooter in the final seconds.:roll: :applause:

We said kobe has made more game winners than jordan. A fact.

To dispute this you said jordan was more efficient at them and made 28 out of 52 BASED ON A NIKE AD.

So because you couldn't come up with a verifiable efficiency for either player for shots in the clutch you want us to? That wasn't our argument. We just said kobe has made more game winners which is completely true. Why is the burden on us to find credible evidence for the points you're trying to make?

[Scoooter]

I don't know who the "clutchest player ever" is (assuming that thing can even really be quantified), but if I had to have one guy taking the last shot of the game, it would be Jordan. If I could have another, it would be Bird.

If I could have a third, it would be me. I'd probably miss, but it would be ****ing awesome.

[SinJackal]

You quoted a NIKE AD! That's your evidence for why jordan's a more efficient shooter in the final seconds.:roll: :applause:

We said kobe has made more game winners than jordan. A fact.

To dispute this you said jordan was more efficient at them and made 28 out of 52 BASED ON A NIKE AD.

So because you couldn't come up with a verifiable efficiency for either player for shots in the clutch you want us to? That wasn't our argument. We just said kobe has made more game winners which is completely true. Why would we look up evidence for the points you're trying to make?

I already made my points and posted my evidence, and all you fools are doing by trolling and claiming the sources aren't credible. Meanwhile neither of you have posted a source, and are simply throwing around your opinions and trying to pass it off as fact.


http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm


Kobe shot 25% during his prime when he shot game winners. That means he bricked 3 of every 4 attempts. During his prime.

Where are your facts?

Oh right, you don't have any. You just keep posting your brainwashed opinion that Kobe must be the best clutch player because somebody else said that somewhere. Even though stats point out that Kobe bricks 3 of every 4 game winners he attempts. There's no better sample selection than his prime.

Please post your facts to refute this, rather than keep crying that it's not his whole career and somehow that means that it doesn't count. . .that it's during his prime, and not his whole career.

You've lost, face it.

[tpols]

I already made my points and posted my evidence, and all you fools are doing by trolling and claiming the sources aren't credible. Meanwhile neither of you have posted a source, and are simply throwing around your opinions and trying to pass it off as fact.


http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm


Kobe shot 25% during his prime when he shot game winners. That means he bricked 3 of every 4 attempts. During his prime.

Where are your facts?

Oh right, you don't have any. You just keep posting your brainwashed opinion that Kobe must be the best clutch player because somebody else said that somewhere. Even though stats point out that Kobe bricks 3 of every 4 game winners he attempts. There's no better sample selection than his prime.

Please post your facts to refute this, rather than keep crying that it's not his whole career and somehow that means that it doesn't count. . .that it's during his prime, and not his whole career.

You've lost, face it.
You posted half of the evidence.

We have nothing to compare it to since you haven't found MJ's true miss count.

Stop dodging the question dumbass.

[SinJackal]

You posted half of the evidence.

We have nothing to compare it to since you haven't found MJ's true miss count.

Stop dodging the question dumbass.

I already proved that Kobe isn't clutch. At all. It's up to you to prove that MJ isn't if you want to continue the debate.

You're debating that MJ isn't as clutch as Kobe. . .prove it kid. Otherwise

http://anomit.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/1b957c3f7e8f1e8eaa905e683e84d89c.jpg

[tpols]

I already proved that Kobe isn't clutch. At all. It's up to you to prove that MJ isn't if you want to continue the debate.

You're debating that MJ isn't as clutch as Kobe. . .prove it kid. Otherwise

http://anomit.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/1b957c3f7e8f1e8eaa905e683e84d89c.jpg
whats up with the gay anime bro?:lol

You haven't proven anything. The league average for that sample was .298. Lebron James was the BEST guy in the clutch according to that yet he shot .340.:facepalm

That site said kobe made 14 clutch shots. But he has made over 30 so far. Whose to say he wasn't more efficient on the other 16+shots?

You have given data for a time period that was selected primarily as a biased sample to say kobe isn't clutch.

You have given NO data on MJ's efficiency.

You have no current case as to say MJ is a more efficient game winner.

I do have a case to say kobe has made more game winners than jordan.

[tpols]

I already proved that Kobe isn't clutch. At all. It's up to you to prove that MJ isn't if you want to continue the debate.

You're debating that MJ isn't as clutch as Kobe. . .prove it kid. Otherwise


I didn't say he wasn't clutch at any point. So again, what are you debating with me exactly, besides that you are obviously trying to debate that Kobe is more clutch than MJ?

I said MJ was the most clutch player of all time, and people began to reply to me saying it's Kobe and not MJ, hence the debate.

This kid running in circles contradicting himself left and right.

Embarrassing:applause:

[SinJackal]

You haven't proven anything. The league average for that sample was .298. Lebron James was the BEST guy in the clutch according to that yet he shot .340.:facepalm

No.

Hedo shot 50% (8/16), Jamison shot .563% (9/16). Melo shot 48% (13/27). Iverson shot 39% (13/33), so on and so forth. James wasn't anywhere near the top in %, he just had a bunch of makes.


That site said kobe made 14 clutch shots. But he has made over 30 so far. Whose to say he wasn't more efficient on the other 16+shots?

I actually assume Kobe was more efficiant when I make my argument. But even if he was 15% better on his remaining 17 shots (which is a big stretch considering how bad he was during his prime), he would still be around 34% total, which is 1 of 3. I wouldn't consider 33% shooting to be clutch.



You have given data for a time period that was selected primarily as a biased sample to say kobe isn't clutch.

Actually, that time period was selected to compare Kobe to LeBron without having Kobe's years before LeBron was in the league inflating his game winners made for people to say he's better based on that stat alone, and not his actually FG%. Which ironicly, is the only point Kobe fans are bringing up against MJ.

That site selected those years to be as NON biased as possible. You have it backwards.


You have given NO data on MJ's efficiency.

None exists, and hence, I cannot do that.


You have no current case as to say MJ is a more efficient game winner.

Other than the fact that MJ has 6 titles in 6 attempts, vs Kobe's 5/6. Or the fact that MJ shoots 49% in the finals, as opposed to Kobe's 41%. making 33 PPG, opposed to Kobe's 25. Or the fact that MJ didn't let any of his finals go to a game 7.

Or the fact that MJ's career efficiancy is better than Kobe's by far, while producing more in every statistical category, most of which by far.

In fact, Kobe has only posted two seasons in his life with a higher TS% than MJ, this not even considering that MJ's career TS% is diminished by his Wizards years. Kobe has never posted a FG% or eFG% higher than MJ's.

Taking all that into consideration, how MJ has been more efficiant than Kobe across the board, and that Kobe, during his BEST YEARS, was a mere 25% shooter in game winning situations. . .

To say I have no case is a joke. You're just deluding yourself now.



I do have a case to say kobe has made more game winners than jordan.

But none on his efficiancy, which I have proved to be extremely shaky at best.

As in the examples I already used, if I made 32 of 1,000 game winning attempts, it wouldn't mean I'm better at taking game winners than Kobe. I would be a 3.2% shooter in game winning situations, which means Kobe would be nearly 9x better than me at taking game winners (at least).

So if Jordan makes 28 of 54+, it means he's better than a player who makes 31 of 100-125.

Do you dispute this logic?



This kid running in circles contradicting himself left and right.

Embarrassing:applause:

Yawn.

Trolling instead of making a point, since you have no points?

[Bladers]

I already proved that Kobe isn't clutch. At all. It's up to you to prove that MJ isn't if you want to continue the debate.

You're debating that MJ isn't as clutch as Kobe. . .prove it kid. Otherwise



I didn't say he wasn't clutch at any point. So again, what are you debating with me exactly, besides that you are obviously trying to debate that Kobe is more clutch than MJ?

I said MJ was the most clutch player of all time, and people began to reply to me saying it's Kobe and not MJ, hence the debate.

http://blog.infinitemonkeysblog.com/files/images/obvious_troll.preview.jpg

[tpols]

whats up with the gay anime bro?:lol



No.

Hedo shot 50% (8/16), Jamison shot .563% (9/16). Melo shot 48% (13/27). Iverson shot 39% (13/33), so on and so forth. James wasn't anywhere near the top in %, he just had a bunch of makes.



I actually assume Kobe was more efficiant when I make my argument. But even if he was 15% better on his remaining 17 shots (which is a big stretch considering how bad he was during his prime), he would still be around 34% total, which is 1 of 3. I wouldn't consider 33% shooting to be clutch.




Actually, that time period was selected to compare Kobe to LeBron without having Kobe's years before LeBron was in the league inflating his game winners made for people to say he's better based on that stat alone, and not his actually FG%. Which ironicly, is the only point Kobe fans are bringing up against MJ.

That site selected those years to be as NON biased as possible. You have it backwards.



None exists, and hence, I cannot do that.



Other than the fact that MJ has 6 titles in 6 attempts, vs Kobe's 5/6. Or the fact that MJ shoots 49% in the finals, as opposed to Kobe's 41%. making 33 PPG, opposed to Kobe's 25. Or the fact that MJ didn't let any of his finals go to a game 7.

Or the fact that MJ's career efficiancy is better than Kobe's by far, while producing more in every statistical category, most of which by far.

In fact, Kobe has only posted two seasons in his life with a higher TS% than MJ, this not even considering that MJ's career TS% is diminished by his Wizards years. Kobe has never posted a FG% or eFG% higher than MJ's.

Taking all that into consideration, how MJ has been more efficiant than Kobe across the board, and that Kobe, during his BEST YEARS, was a mere 25% shooter in game winning situations. . .

To say I have no case is a joke. You're just deluding yourself now.




But none on his efficiancy, which I have proved to be extremely shaky at best.

As in the examples I already used, if I made 32 of 1,000 game winning attempts, it wouldn't mean I'm better at taking game winners than Kobe. I would be a 3.2% shooter in game winning situations, which means Kobe would be nearly 9x better than me at taking game winners (at least).

So if Jordan makes 28 of 54+, it means he's better than a player who makes 31 of 100-125.

Do you dispute this logic?




Yawn.

Trolling instead of making a point, since you have no points?
None exists. So your argument for jordan being more efficient on game winners doesn't exist. Your purely speculating right now. Our argument, or fact that kobe has more game winners isn't based on opinionated speculation.

What do finals stats have to do with career game winners? Way to change the subject to something else to detract from the original debate.

Of course I believe efficiency at game winners means a lot when looking at game winning shots. It, however isn't the only measure. On the flip side of your argument if I go 1 for 2 on game winners does that mean I'm more clutch than kobe's 30 for 70? A better efficiency doesn't always mean that person is more clutch.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Again, Jordan's official list is missing AT LEAST half a dozen shots. On TOP OF THAT, the list posted in the OP of this topic isn't even MJ's official list -- it's missing 2-3 shots. I think MJ's official list has 30 or 31 shots. I know for a fact MJ hit a game-winner vs. NY during his Wizards stint, for instance, and it's not in the OP's list.

This is to say nothing of the 6+ shots I know of that aren't even on MJ's official list. And the reason they weren't on his official list is because not everything was chronicled like it is today with DVR's and Youtube etc.

[Bladers]

Again, Jordan's official list is missing AT LEAST half a dozen shots. On TOP OF THAT, the list posted in the OP of this topic isn't even MJ's official list -- it's missing 2-3 shots. I think MJ's official list has 30 or 31 shots. I know for a fact MJ hit a game-winner vs. NY during his Wizards stint, for instance, and it's not in the OP's list.

This is to say nothing of the 6+ shots I know of that aren't even on MJ's official list. And the reason they weren't on his official list is because not everything was chronicled like it is today with DVR's and Youtube etc.

Again, just like i said to SinJackal the obvious troll.

Prove it all or GTFO..
Else his record stands at 25!

[SinJackal]

None exists. So your argument for jordan being more efficient on game winners doesn't exist. Your purely speculating right now. Our argument, or fact that kobe has more game winners isn't based on opinionated speculation.

Fyi, you're also speculating that Kobe is more efficiant than MJ, without posting ANY facts. Meanwhile, I have posted stats showing how Kobe isn't efficiant. So your own argument works against yourself.




Of course I believe efficiency at game winners means a lot when looking at game winning shots. It, however isn't the only measure. On the flip side of your argument if I go 1 for 2 on game winners does that mean I'm more clutch than kobe's 30 for 70? A better efficiency doesn't always mean that person is more clutch.

You contradicted yourself in the same paragraph. Catostrophic failure.



http://blog.infinitemonkeysblog.com/files/images/obvious_troll.preview.jpg

Both of you are stupid as hell. You're quoting a post I made after I claimed that I never said Kobe wasn't clutch.

Which means my original statement was correct.


Huge troll failure by both of you.

[KevinDurant4MVP]

Lol @ that anime nerd stanning jordan to unbelivable proportions.

Were take Nike mottos and turning them into hardcore facts? :lol:

I have seen jordan get blcoked multiple times on GW's

I doubt his percent is that high


Kobe set the record for most gw's in a season.

Kobe clutch prime> Jordans.

[SinJackal]

Lol @ that anime nerd stanning jordan to unbelivable proportions.

Were take Nike mottos and turning them into hardcore facts? :lol:

I have seen jordan get blcoked multiple times on GW's

I doubt his percent is that high


Kobe set the record for most gw's in a season.

Kobe clutch prime> Jordans.

Kobe shot game winners at 25% during his prime.

http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm


Nice try kid.



Edit: This shit is boring, going to sleep. You kids, feel free to stay up and make troll posts until sunrise.

[tpols]

Fyi, you're also speculating that Kobe is more efficiant than MJ, without posting ANY facts. Meanwhile, I have posted stats showing how Kobe isn't efficiant. So your own argument works against yourself.




You contradicted yourself in the same paragraph. Catostrophic failure.




Both of you are stupid as hell. You're quoting a post I made after I claimed that I never said Kobe wasn't clutch.

Which means my original statement was correct.


Huge troll failure by both of you.
LOL let me spell out the arguments again.

I said kobe made more game winners.

You said jordan was more efficient at game winners. (and proceeded to quote nike ads as your evidence in the comparison)

I NEVER said kobe was more efficient. I simply disputed the notion that he was 'twice as efficient' as you said earlier and said that it is UNKNOWN as to who is more efficient.

Get your facts straight.


And I said efficiency means a lot but there are certain contexts where it is not applicable.:facepalm Learn to read man.

[Bladers]

Kobe shot game winners at 25% during his prime.

http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm


Nice try kid.



Edit: This shit is boring, going to sleep. You kids, feel free to stay up and make troll posts until sunrise.

You have been trolling since you stumbled upon this thread...



[url
I'll have to look for MJ's game winners missed list, but I know he wasn't shooting anywhere near as bad as 25% when taking them. Considering that MJ has clearly SHOT less potential game winners, the odds of Kobe having a much higher list of misses, with his horribly low FG% when taking them, are extremely high.

LOL@ This guy googling MJ and taking a Nike AD as 100% factual evidence and running with it since then...
What a pityful troll.:facepalm

[KevinDurant4MVP]

Fyi, you're also speculating that Kobe is more efficiant than MJ, without posting ANY facts. Meanwhile, I have posted stats showing how Kobe isn't efficiant. So your own argument works against yourself.




You contradicted yourself in the same paragraph. Catostrophic failure.




Both of you are stupid as hell. You're quoting a post I made after I claimed that I never said Kobe wasn't clutch.

Which means my original statement was correct.


Huge troll failure by both of you.



Wow. Your source is 82games.com. The list was made in 09 and says Kobe only has 14 game winners. Kobe had over 22 @ that point.Just look at the list in op. So at least come with a legit source to discredit kobe smh

[Toizumi]

5 seconds left on the clock, down by 1...
I'd want mr Michael Jordan to take the winning shot. no doubt.
Kobe comes second for me.
Ray Ray is up there too. Horry has made a sick amount of clutch shots (in the playoffs), but most of the times the plays weren't even drawn up for him specificly (sp). He ranks as a great clutch player, but you wouldn't want him to look for his own shot of the dribble in a close 4th quarter, unlike Kobe/MJ.

There's a difference between making last second shots and being clutch though. Some players show up in the 4th quarter and carry their teams to wins.. but when it comes down to the last second just don't have a knack for hitting gamewinners (players without a great jumpshot, it's tough to get more than a jumper as a last second shot).

[OldSchoolBBall]

Again, just like i said to SinJackal the obvious troll.

Prove it all or GTFO..
Else his record stands at 25!

What the hell? 25? How about no. Here's a list of 33 MJ game winners right off the bat:

http://www.23jordan.com/shots1.htm

And, LIKE I SAID, at least half a dozen shots I know of aren't on there. I explicitly POSTED VIDEO that mentioned one along with a box score of said game earlier in the thread. The flu game dagger 3 is well known enough, and the game winner vs/ Cleveland in the '93 playoffs is easy enough to find on Youtube. Then there are a few others I know from the regular season as well. In short: STFU.

[SuperPippen]

You Kobe dick-riders are as ignorant a bunch of trolls on the internet as I've ever seen. SinJackal already shot down your logic multiple times, and you're grasping at straws to make a point that has practically no relevance to the argument at hand. Even if Kobe was better at shooting game winning shots - which he isn't, as has been proven time and time again - it still wouldn't mean a thing when trying to determine whether one player is more clutch than another.

Seriously, all argument about game winning shots aside, are you guys REALLY calling Kobe more clutch than MJ after his team was blown out by 39 points in the clinching game of the 2008 Finals? Or how about his 6-for-24 in game 7 of the 2010 Finals? Or how about the 2004 Finals, where he played like shit the entire series?

The simple truth is: MJ > Kobe, in all aspects of the game. Stop diluting yourselves into thinking otherwise.

[alexandreben]

here's Jordan's game winning shots with vid

[vinsane01]

I believe jordan's made a lot more game winning shots in the playoffs compared to kobe. And for me that matters a lot more.

If we are talking about the playoffs the best clutch players ive seen (from 97 onwards) are miller, jordan and horry. Kerr and that dang fisher should also be in the discussion. I am sure i missed a lot more but those are the players that comes to my mind when it comes to last second heroics.

[ThaRegul8r]

[QUOTE=alexandreben]here's Jordan's game winning shots with vid

[OldSchoolBBall]

[QUOTE=alexandreben]here's Jordan's game winning shots with vid

[TheLogo]

After coming back from a date and reading this thread, I will have to still go with Kobe.

www.dolem.com/kobe

[RazorBaLade]

You Kobe dick-riders are as ignorant a bunch of trolls on the internet as I've ever seen. SinJackal already shot down your logic multiple times, and you're grasping at straws to make a point that has practically no relevance to the argument at hand. Even if Kobe was better at shooting game winning shots - which he isn't, as has been proven time and time again - it still wouldn't mean a thing when trying to determine whether one player is more clutch than another.

Seriously, all argument about game winning shots aside, are you guys REALLY calling Kobe more clutch than MJ after his team was blown out by 39 points in the clinching game of the 2008 Finals? Or how about his 6-for-24 in game 7 of the 2010 Finals? Or how about the 2004 Finals, where he played like shit the entire series?

The simple truth is: MJ > Kobe, in all aspects of the game. Stop diluting yourselves into thinking otherwise.

shot down logic by using a website that cites kobe has barely any more game winners than lebron? kys

[RazorBaLade]

Again, for the zillionth time, this is not MJ's full list. I just posted a link to a list with 33 documented GW's, and then there are at least half a dozen I personally know of that aren't included on there (several of which I've posted video links to or are easy to find on youtube). MJ's actual game winner list is likely near or above 40, to be honest.

I remember seeing on ESPN or something that Kobe has like 34 and MJ with 33 or somewhere around there, but we all know how ESPN is so that might not be including games on mondays or some shit. There's not a lot of definitive proof but we should all be able to agree on a few things:

- most clutch is mostly between jordan and kobe, maybe bird, safe bet is jordan RIGHT NOW but you can go either way depending on how you view unprovable circumstances.

- Kobe probably has more than jordan but jordan has more in the playoffs.

- Jordan made them at a higher %, but we don't really have any reason to believe that shows anything because of the teams both players had. There's too many variables there to flat out say that jordan makes game winners at a higher pct, unlike normal FG% for example where there are minimum variables to consider.

so its basically pick your poison, and preferably to some of you that think its a wash either way and that guy who made the jordan is better than kobe at everything forever comment, drink it.

[necya]

kobe has faced a lot more tied situtation cause he ball hogged in the 4th QT so the opponents could go back in the game. MJ used to win games at the start of the 4th QT.
anyway, kobe has made many clutch shots, but i've seen him make like the worst decision when the shot clock came down.
MJ and Bird were the most effective plus, they took the best decision in this moment.

if bird wasn't with the celtics but with a normal team, maybe he would have 50. the guy is just perfect in those situation.

[RazorBaLade]

kobe has faced a lot more tied situtation cause he ball hogged in the 4th QT so the opponents could go back in the game. MJ used to win games at the start of the 4th QT.
anyway, kobe has made many clutch shots, but i've seen him make like the worst decision when the shot clock came down.
MJ and Bird were the most effective plus, they took the best decision in this moment.

if bird wasn't with the celtics but with a normal team, maybe he would have 50. the guy is just perfect in those situation.

so what stickers does your dentist give you, you ask for the spiderman ones?

[necya]

so what stickers does your dentist give you, you ask for the spiderman ones?

sorry, i don't understand teenage jokes...can you ask to your father to rephrase it?

[beermonsteroo]

[QUOTE=griffmoney2084]this guy

Dec. 27, 1999: Lakers 108 - Mavericks 106 (game-winning FTs w/ 8.6 secs)
May 09, 1999: Lakers 101 - Rockets 100 (PO, game-winning FTs w/ 5.3 secs)
May 10, 2000: Lakers 97 - Phoenix 96 (PO, jumper over Jason Kidd w/ 2.6 secs)
Feb. 07, 2001: Lakers 85 - Phoenix 83 (jumper over Shawn Marion w/ 2.7 sec)
Feb. 13, 2001: Lakers 113 - Nets 110 (OT layup/and-1 w/ 4.8 secs)
Jan. 02, 2002: Lakers 87 - Nuggets 86 (off-reb and jumper w/ 55 secs)
Feb. 22, 2002: Lakers 96 - Hornets 94 (buzzer-beater, jumper over George Lynch)
May 12, 2002: Lakers 87 - Spurs 85 (PO, off-reb and put-back w/ 5.1 secs)
Dec. 06, 2002: Lakers 105 - Mavericks 103 (turn-around jumper w/ 8 secs)
April 04, 2003: Lakers 102 - Grizzlies 101 (buzzer beater, jumper over Shane Battier)
April 06, 2003: Lakers 115 - Suns 113 (OT, game-tying jumper for OT, jumper over Shawn Marion w/ 28.6 sec)
Dec. 19, 2003: Lakers 101 - Nuggets 99 (buzzer-beater, fade-away over Jon Barry)
Feb. 17, 2004: Lakers 89 - Blazers 86 (left-handed layup w/ 31.8 secs + FT)
Mar. 21, 2004: Lakers 104 - Bucks 103 (OT jumper over Keith Van Horn w/ 25.1 sec)
April 14, 2004: Lakers 105 - Blazers 104 (OT buzzer beater, game-tying 3-pointer for OT, fall-away 3-pointer)
Mar. 12, 2005: Lakers 117 - Bobcats 116 (jumper over Keith Bogans w/ 0.9 secs)
Nov. 02, 2005: Lakers 99 - Nuggets 97 (OT jumper over Ed Najera w/ 0.6 secs)
Dec. 04, 2005: Lakers 99 - Bobcats 98 (game-winning FTs w/ 7 secs)
Jan. 12, 2006: Lakers 99 - Cavaliers 98 (jumper over LeBron James w/ 8.6 secs)
April 30, 2006: Lakers 99 - Suns 98 (PO, OT buzzer-beater, game-tying tear-drop for OT, jumper over Boris Diaw)
Jan. 14, 2008: Lakers 123 - Sonics 121 (OT jumper over Jeff Green w/ 4.3 secs)
Jan. 09, 2009: Lakers 121 - Pacers 119 (jumper over Jarrett Jack w/ 3 secs)
Dec. 04, 2009: Lakers 108 - Heat 107 (buzzer-beater, 3-pointer over Dwyane Wade)
Dec. 16, 2009: Lakers 107 - Bucks 106 (OT buzzer-beater, jumper over Charlie Bell)
Jan. 01, 2010: Lakers 109 - Kings 108 (buzzer-beater, 3-pointer)
Jan. 31, 2010: Lakers 90 - Celtics 89 (jumper over Ray Allen w/ 7.3 secs)
Feb. 23, 2010: Lakers 99 - Grizzlies 98 (3-pointer over Rudy Gay w/ 4.3 secs)
Mar. 9, 2010: Lakers 109 - Raptors 107 (jumper over Antoine Wright w/ 1.9 secs)


:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[IInvented]

Russell was clutch...Really...???

[MasterDurant24]

you're right ..
do you think this stats part of clutch ?
cause all posters who chose mj had no comments about it.
Yes, that's part of clutch.

[Calabis]

Total Game Winners:

Kobe- 29
Jordan- 27

Total Jumpers Made to Win in Last 10 Seconds

Kobe- 20
Jordan- 19

And kobe still has a lot more to come...

33 listed for MJ (http://www.23jordan.com/shots1.htm)

Also Jordan 13 post seasons way more clutch moments

[Calabis]

Lol @ that anime nerd stanning jordan to unbelivable proportions.

Were take Nike mottos and turning them into hardcore facts? :lol:

I have seen jordan get blcoked multiple times on GW's

I doubt his percent is that high


Kobe set the record for most gw's in a season.

Kobe clutch prime> Jordans.

Kobe Regular Season Closer, Air ball master in playoffs...ps thanks Ron, Gasol

[Calabis]

loki. bruce and other mj stans:

Everyone remembers him hitting the game winner in 1998 to close out Utah, but few remember that Jordan missed 20 shots
in that game and only had a total of 1 rebound and 1 assist.

Its obvious you didn't see the game, because only a moron would point that out, then leave out the fact that he scored 16 fourth quarter points, including the last 8 Bulls points in the final 2:08, include the key steal and the game winner. That's the difference Jordan may have had a bad night, but when it mattered he stepped up and produced

[Calabis]

You quoted a NIKE AD! That's your evidence for why jordan's a more efficient shooter in the final seconds.:roll: :applause:

We said kobe has made more game winners than jordan. A fact.

To dispute this you said jordan was more efficient at them and made 28 out of 52 BASED ON A NIKE AD.

So because you couldn't come up with a verifiable efficiency for either player for shots in the clutch you want us to? That wasn't our argument. We just said kobe has made more game winners which is completely true. Why is the burden on us to find credible evidence for the points you're trying to make?

Its not a fact Jordan has 33 and far more in the playoffs:banghead:

[niko]

Probably MJ. Kobe is really far up there. Melo is real good for last second shots but i get the feeling (knowing im being unfair) that it feels lucky. Basically i take MJ and then Kobe because they hit the most i saw in situations where basically you knew they were going to shoot, you knew what they were going to do, and they did it anyway. Larry Bird was also SICK in this way. But he was always sick shooting.

Duncan is highly underrated in this category too. You give him the ball, on the blocks, big situation, he hits it.

As far as situational guys, not stars, it's Fisher and Horry.

Overrated I think are Reggie Miller and Vince Carter. These are guys who always took the last shot, so they hit a large amount of them, but no more than other stars would IMO if they got as many.

[Calabis]

What the hell? 25? How about no. Here's a list of 33 MJ game winners right off the bat:

http://www.23jordan.com/shots1.htm

And, LIKE I SAID, at least half a dozen shots I know of aren't on there. I explicitly POSTED VIDEO that mentioned one along with a box score of said game earlier in the thread. The flu game dagger 3 is well known enough, and the game winner vs/ Cleveland in the '93 playoffs is easy enough to find on Youtube. Then there are a few others I know from the regular season as well. In short: STFU.

oops my bad, posted mine before i got to ur post

[G-Funk]

Kobe and Jordan woh ever disagrees is either a Kobe hater or a Kobe homer.

[OldSchoolBBall]

- most clutch is mostly between jordan and kobe, maybe bird, safe bet is jordan RIGHT NOW but you can go either way depending on how you view unprovable circumstances.

LOL Kobe isn't as clutch as Bird. Kobe fans are hysterical. :oldlol:

[MasterDurant24]

Kobe and Jordan woh ever disagrees is either a Kobe hater or a Kobe homer.
This is stupid.

[Rasheed1]

Bird...

Reggie....

Mj.....


one of those guys

[SinJackal]

shot down logic by using a website that cites kobe has barely any more game winners than lebron? kys

From the years of '03-'08, he has 14. Can you not read? It very specifically states that it's from 2003-2008. It isn't from 1995-2010. It's Kobe's prime years. Kobe has (supposedly) 17 more game winners in the 9 years outside of his 5 prime years. Nobody has said Kobe only has 14 game winners besides Kobe trolls like yourself who are trying to pretend they did since you want to take attention away from Kobe's 25% FG% when he takes game winners.

I realize your brain processes information slowly, and missed the 5 times I kept pointing that out to you and the other Kobe trolls and were shitting their pants over his 25% shooting of game winning shots from his prime years of '03-'08, So I will bold everything you fools need to stop overlooking before you continue your brainwashed broken record posts that never refute any given arguments. That the list did not include his other game winners are outside of that span of time.

The list was not to claim he only had 14 game winners, it is simply the only source showing the FG% for his game winning shots that is anywhere to be found on the net. It is from '03-'08 to compare Kobe and LeBron's averages in game winning situations, to dispute this very same sort of argument, only between Kobe and LeBron, so they started the years at when LeBron came into the league so Kobe trolls wouldn't say "Kobe has more game winners so he's better". They instead chose years they were both in the league, which happened to also be Kobe's prime 5 years, so it was a completely fair comparison.

The fact remains that he shot only 25% during his prime when taking game winners. He missed more game winners than any other player in the NBA over that span, and in fact did not lead the league in them either.

The definition of a "game winner" that the site used was as follows


Game Winning Shot Opportunity = 24 seconds or less left in the game, team with the ball is either tied or down by 1 to 2 points.


Why use this definition?

With 24 seconds or less, then it truly is a "last possession" situation potentially

With a margin from tied to down 2, the team can take the lead with a made basket (including 3's)

By excluding a down 3 situation, we don't have the "gimme two point buckets" that defenses will sometimes yield to the quick bucket/intentional foul strategy option you often see exercised.

So they only count baskets that put the team ahead while they were tied or down with less than 24 seconds left on the clock. Kobe shot 25% in these situations during his prime.

So as it stands, you and the rest of the Kobe trolls have said nothing to refute any of this. Kobe clearly choked when taking game winning shots during his prime. Nobody is disputing that Kobe has 31 game winners (even though it's counting shots he made with almost a minute left on the clock -_- ..), it's the fact that he has so many because he takes more than anyone else in the NBA, and thus, even though he has a ton of game winners, has a low FG% when taking them.


You kids need to wrap your stupid minds around this and get it over with.

If you cannot refute that Kobe has a low FG% with actual stats, then you've lost and are doing nothing but trolling.

[DuMa]

MJ
Reggie
Bird
West