LeBron has 17 game winners already?

[Fatal9]

http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

According to this site. Does that seem surprisingly high to anyone else? Hasn't tracked the last season and a half either...

[LAClipsFan33]

Lebron wins a lot of games. When he does nobody cares because 9/10 its not a circus or highly contested shot

[ShaqAttack3234]

Yeah, it does seem high, but he did have 3 in the playoffs by that point already, 2 vs Washington and 1 vs Detroit, iirc and it includes the playoffs.

[RazorBaLade]

they use a stupid ass criteria, that site isnt legit for gw

"Obviously though this definition means a shot may not actually be a game winner -- it may only tie a game (if down two points) or it may allow enough time for the opponents to get a game winning shot of their own. Still it seems a reasonable compromise." no it doesnt. game WINNER. not maybe game winner.

[Fatal9]

Wonder why they stopped updating midway through last season. Would be nice if all these attempts were cited somehow too. Kobe had a horrific stretch on game winning shots from '04-'06 iirc, bet he was shooting like 10-15% on them (all usually long 30 foot threes).

[madmax]

http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

According to this site. Does that seem surprisingly high to anyone else? Hasn't tracked the last season and a half either...
just because most of his game winners aren't last second buzzer-beating contested jumpshots, doesn't mean they are not legit...He wins plenty of games and is very clutch - better than Kobe is, like the stats show

[SinJackal]

http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

According to this site. Does that seem surprisingly high to anyone else? Hasn't tracked the last season and a half either...

They use the most logical criteria for "game winners", so they can accurately post players' game winning FG%. Based on their criteria, if Kobe make a shot that puts the Lakers ahead with 3 seconds left, then Manu Ginobili hits a three at the other end to win the game for the Spurs, Kobe still gets credit for a game winner.

This is because if you count only late game shots that you make and the other team doesn't score, but also count potential game winners missed, their FG% stats for game winners will be way down, since perhaps the other team scores at the other end before the game's up, then you lose credit for a game winner. But if you brick one and the other team scores, you would get it counted against you for a miss still. So they count the ones even if the other team scores in the final few seconds since it's fair to the players.

It's more a, "late game potential game winning shots" stat, not a specific "game winning shots" stat.

LeBron did have 17 potential game winners, but some of the time the Cavs gave up a score at the end for a loss, and LeBron therefore did not get credit for a GW shot.

Some people may not like the way they define the stat on the site, but they simply don't understand that it's the only way to accurately assess a player's late game offensive clutchness. The actual game winners stat is extremely overrated, since it completely excludes efficiancy. 14 game winning makes in 5 years is great, but getting them on 25% shooting is pathetic.



Wonder why they stopped updating midway through last season. Would be nice if all these attempts were cited somehow too. Kobe had a horrific stretch on game winning shots from '04-'06 iirc, bet he was shooting like 10-15% on them (all usually long 30 foot threes).

That's true. FYI though, they used the play by play section on NBA.com. It tells you the exact seconds shots are taken, what the score is when they were taken, who's shooting them, and if they made them or not. If you want, you could manually go through them to figure out what their stats would be for the last season and a half, but that'd take a good while.

[Batz]

It's 82games. Making up shit is there thing. Because according to every other source Lebron has about 4-5 gamewinners. Just looking at the list and seeing people like Ricky Davis, Damon Stoudamire, Damon Jones, Travis Outlaw, Kevin Martin, Ronald Murray, Tyronn Lue, Andrew Bogut and **** I could go on. All in good fun though. Gives me chuckles now and then.

[LAClipsFan33]

They use the most logical criteria for "game winners", so they can accurately post players' game winning FG%. Based on their criteria, if Kobe make a shot that puts the Lakers ahead with 3 seconds left, then Manu Ginobili hits a three at the other end to win the game for the Spurs, Kobe still gets credit for a game winner.

This is because if you count only late game shots that you make and the other team doesn't score, but also count potential game winners missed, their FG% stats for game winners will be way down, since perhaps the other team scores at the other end before the game's up, then you lose credit for a game winner. But if you brick one and the other team scores, you would get it counted against you for a miss still. So they count the ones even if the other team scores in the final few seconds since it's fair to the players.

It's more a, "late game potential game winning shots" stat, not a specific "game winning shots" stat.

LeBron did have 17 potential game winners, but some of the time the Cavs gave up a score at the end for a loss, and LeBron therefore did not get credit for a GW shot.

Some people may not like the way they define the stat on the site, but they simply don't understand that it's the only way to accurately assess a player's late game offensive clutchness. The actual game winners stat is extremely overrated, since it completely excludes efficiancy. 14 game winning makes in 5 years is great, but getting them on 25% shooting is pathetic.


Thanks for clearing that up

[jstern]

Kobe with 14? There was a thread here that had Kobe with more game winners than Jordan. Like 29 or 30 game winners.

[TheLogo]

Unlike 82games, whom I have emailed for sources and the games, they responded by saying they no longer know what teams each player played against, I have the real numbers.

All Kobe's game winners have been sourced and documented.

I OWNAGE 82games.........


www.dolem.com/kobe

Enjoy.

P.S. Kobe has one more because Raptors game wasn't documented.

:cheers::oldlol:

[ImmortalD24]

Roland Beech (82games.com owner and writer) sure does reference "Bryant fans" a lot.

I notice that he's from Northern California.. Kings fan too I see..


Why does this start from the 03-04 season to 08-09?

[Batz]

Why does this start from the 03-04 season to 08-09?
Lebron's rookie season to last season?

[catch24]

Roland Beech (82games.com owner and writer) sure does reference "Bryant fans" a lot.

I notice that he's from Northern California.. Kings fan too I see..


Why does this start from the 03-04 season to 08-09?

Find it funny the owner of that site has updated the 2010 clutch stats and all other various statistics, yet, interestingly, GWs (their criteria is terrible btw ... how the hell can a game tying basket also be considered a GW?) haven't been updated in...well going on 2 years.

[Team_Hollywood]

LeBron James is a great player, very clutch too; but people just like to point out the flaws and find reasons to hate. If you judge him from a neutral stand point, he truly is an amazing player. I'm more than sure he'll retire as one of the greatest players of all time, possibly top ten.


WE DA BESS

[catch24]

It's 82games. Making up shit is there thing. Because according to every other source Lebron has about 4-5 gamewinners. Just looking at the list and seeing people like Ricky Davis, Damon Stoudamire, Damon Jones, Travis Outlaw, Kevin Martin, Ronald Murray, Tyronn Lue, Andrew Bogut and **** I could go on. All in good fun though. Gives me chuckles now and then.

Why do you feel they make up their info? I normally double check sources and make sure I'm not just spoon fed BS but I've heard its legit...from credible people too.

[plowking]

Some of the Kobe game winners in that link are counting shots at 30 seconds and 27 seconds...

I'm guessing the Lebron link provided is as well.

EDIT: Just checked, the link TheLogo provided counts go-ahead baskets as gamewinners? Yeah, but nah. That ain't a gamewinner.

[jbryan1984]

09 ECF Game 2 vs. Orlando is my favorite. Q was loud as I ever heard it.

[gts]

Kobe with 14? There was a thread here that had Kobe with more game winners than Jordan. Like 29 or 30 game winners.82 games only went back as far as lebrons first season for this meaning several years of kobe's and others on the list career were not accounted for... plus it only goes through half of 08-09 season

[Bladers]

Unlike 82games, whom I have emailed for sources and the games, they responded by saying they no longer know what teams each player played against, I have the real numbers.

All Kobe's game winners have been sourced and documented.

I OWNAGE 82games.........


www.dolem.com/kobe

Enjoy.

P.S. Kobe has one more because Raptors game wasn't documented.

:cheers::oldlol:

NOOO...
He has way more than that..
Here is the official list.

List of Kobe's notable game-winners:

1) 05/09/99 - Lakers 101, Rockets 100 (playoffs, game-winning FTs with 5.3 seconds remaining)
2) 12/27/99 - Lakers 108, Mavericks 106 (game-winning FTs)
3) 05/10/00 - Lakers 97, Phoenix 96 (playoffs, jumper over Jason Kidd)
4) 11/16/00 - Lakers 112, Kings 110 (game-tying three for OT, OT jumper for win)
5) 02/07/01 - Lakers 85, Phoenix 83 (jumper with 2.7 seconds remaining)
6) 02/13/01 - Lakers 113, Nets 110 (OT game-winning layup with the And-1)
7) 01/02/02 - Lakers 87, Nuggets 86 (offensive reb and jumper)
8) 02/22/02 - Lakers 96, Hornets 94 (first career buzzer-beater, jumper)
9) 03/24/02 - Lakers 97, Kings 96 (fade-away jumper, 2.6 seconds remaining)
10) 05/12/02 - Lakers 87, Spurs 85 (playoffs, offensive rebound and put-back)
11) 12/06/02 - Lakers 105, Mavericks 103 (28-point game comeback, spin-around jumper)
12) 04/04/03 - Lakers 102, Grizzlies 101 (buzzer-beater, jumper)
13) 04/06/03 - Lakers 115, Suns 113 (GW jumper with 28.6 seconds remaining)
14) 12/19/03 - Lakers 101, Nuggets 99 (game after the trial, buzzer-beating fade-away)
15) 02/17/04 - Lakers 89, Blazers 86 (layup and the foul)
16) 03/21/04 - Lakers 104, Bucks 103 (OT jumper with 25 seconds remaining)
17) 04/14/04 - Lakers 105, Blazers 104 (game-tying three for OT, OT GW buzzer-beating three)
18) 03/13/05 - Lakers 117, Bobcats 116 (pump fake jumper for the win)
19) 11/02/05 - Lakers 99, Nuggets 97 (OT jumper after the Kwame brick)
20) 12/04/05 - Lakers 99, Bobcats 98 (game-winning FTs)
21) 01/12/06 - Lakers 99, Cavaliers 98 (jumper against Lebron with 8 seconds to go)
22) 04/30/06 - Lakers 99, Suns 98 (playoffs, game-tying tear drop for OT, and OT game-winning jumper)
23) 01/14/08 - Lakers 123, Sonics 121 (OT game-winning jumper)
24) 01/09/09 - Lakers 121, Pacers 119 (jumper against Jarrett Jack with 3 seconds to go)
25) 12/04/09 - Lakers 108, Heat 107 (game-winning buzzer-beating three over Wade)
26) 12/16/09 - Lakers 107, Bucks 106 (game-winning buzzer-beating jumper over Bell)
27) 01/01/10 - Lakers 109, Kings 108 (game-winning buzzer-beating three, 4.1 seconds left and 0.1 remaining)
28) 01/13/10 - Lakers 100, Mavericks 95 (game-winning jumper with 28.9 seconds remaining)
29) 01/31/10 - Lakers 90, Celtics 89 (game-winning jumper with 7 secs remaining)
30) 02/23/10 - Lakers 99, Grizzlies 98 (game-winning jumper with 4.3 seconds remaining)
31) 03/10/10 - Lakers 109, Raptors 107 (game-winning fade-away with 1.9 seconds remaining)

[Nash]

Kobe fans crying over this? This is beyond funny. "OMG LEBRON HAS MORE THAN KOBE!!? THIS SHIT AIN'T LEGIT!!".

[Bladers]

82 games only went back as far as lebrons first season for this meaning several years of kobe's and others on the list career were not accounted for... plus it only goes through half of 08-09 season

Anyone with any slight of an averae IQ will know 82games is owned by a lebron homer...

Have it surprised you that Lebron is always on top on every category?
But when you actually do the calculations yourself, you find out he is not even close.

That is because they fabricate rules that are convenient for Lebron's stats.

[Bladers]

Kobe fans crying over this? This is beyond funny. "OMG LEBRON HAS MORE THAN KOBE!!? THIS SHIT AIN'T LEGIT!!".

Obviously if you can read the post above...
Its not, Kobe has 31!
Lebron actually has like 3!

82games is setup to put Lebron on top.

[Batz]

Why do you feel they make up their info? I normally double check sources and make sure I'm not just spoon fed BS but I've heard its legit...from credible people too.
Just look through their stats and try your best not to cry.

Obviously if you can read the post above...
Its not, Kobe has 31!
Lebron actually has like 3!

82games is setup to put Lebron on top.
4 ain't it? According to ESPN I remember it was 4/37?

[Pointguard]

Where Lebron really distinguishes himself is shots made in games won in by 5 points or less in the last 5 minutes. His shooting percentage and made shots are in a league of their own.

[branslowski]

Actually...Kobe has about 30...

And LeBron doesn't have 17...82games criteria is flawd, they also count the game tying baskets, even if your team loses at the end..

Also, LeBron has more than 3 actual game-winners...

Game-winners vs..

Warriors
Hornets
Wizards-2
Portland
Detroit
Orlando
Bobcats

And Im forgetting one more...But I researched this last season...And came up with 9 Actual Career game-winners....Very Clutch..Dudes cant even reach this many in a full career.

Jordan has 36..Kobe is second...Then there's a gap..Bird has like 11...

[Bladers]

Actually...Kobe has about 30...

And LeBron doesn't have 17...82games criteria is flawd, they also count the game tying baskets, even if your team loses at the end..

Also, LeBron has more than 3 actual game-winners...

Game-winners vs..

Warriors
Hornets
Wizards-2
Portland
Detroit
Orlando
Bobcats

And Im forgetting one more...But I researched this last season...And came up with 9 Actual Career game-winners....Very Clutch..Dudes cant even reach this many in a full career.

Jordan has 36..Kobe is second...Then there's a gap..Bird has like 11...

WTF you been smoking? Its been proven that Jordan has 25...
WTF?:facepalm

[branslowski]

WTF you been smoking? Its been proven that Jordan has 25...
WTF?:facepalm

I could of swore I saw somewhere where Jordan had 36...I could be wrong, but I thought I saw it.

[Bladers]

Where Lebron really distinguishes himself is shots made in games won in by 5 points or less in the last 5 minutes. His shooting percentage and made shots are in a league of their own.

Those Sortable NBA Player "Clutch" Stats are not only flawed. But rigged.
If you look you see that Lebron has 45 games (151mins) counted but Kobe has 28 games (132mins).


That right there is the reason why their method is flawed and a complete joke..

[Bladers]

I could of swore I saw somewhere where Jordan had 36...I could be wrong, but I thought I saw it.

Nope, I'm pretty positive you are wrong.
Try googling, ESPN has him with 25.

[Sakkreth]

28) 01/13/10 - Lakers 100, Mavericks 95 (game-winning jumper with 28.9 seconds remaining)

How shots like this are game winners ? :confusedshrug:

[hawke812]

Their definition of the term GAME WINNING SHOT is flawed and invalid.

[Bladers]

28) 01/13/10 - Lakers 100, Mavericks 95 (game-winning jumper with 28.9 seconds remaining)

How shots like this are game winners ? :confusedshrug:

Because MAVS didn't score after that but they proceeded to foul bynum with secs left after missing their shot to put him on the line...

So yes, that shot won the game for them.

[Batz]

28) 01/13/10 - Lakers 100, Mavericks 95 (game-winning jumper with 28.9 seconds remaining)

How shots like this are game winners ? :confusedshrug:
The shot he hit gave the Lakers the lead. Mavs then missed their opportunity and fouled. It's a gamewinner. Not a buzzer beater or any of that sort but that jumper concluded the game's outcome.

[jstern]

28) 01/13/10 - Lakers 100, Mavericks 95 (game-winning jumper with 28.9 seconds remaining)

How shots like this are game winners ? :confusedshrug:
I know, these definitions that I'm hearing here for the 1st time. If you look for game winning shots on youtube at most they usually have like 3 seconds left on the clock after scoring. In some of the lists here they're even counting free throws. How is a free throw a game winning shot. They're clutch free throws but not game winning shots where you score while someone is trying to stop you.

[Bladers]

I know, these definitions that I'm hearing here for the 1st time. If you look for game winning shots on youtube at most they usually have like 3 seconds left on the clock after scoring. In some of the lists here they're even counting free throws. How is a free throw a game winning shot. They're clutch free throws but not game winning shots where you score while someone is trying to stop you.

?Are you that dumb?

They were trying to score while someone was trying to stop them and FOULED THEM IN THE PROCESS. SO THEY GO TO THE DAMN LINE FOR TWO FREAKING SHOTS!

Don't let your hate cloud your judgment!
Check the hate.

[Pointguard]

Those Sortable NBA Player "Clutch" Stats are not only flawed. But rigged.
If you look you see that Lebron has 45 games (151mins) counted but Kobe has 28 games (132mins).


That right there is the reason why their method is flawed and a complete joke..
LA blows teams out more often. Why do you say its rigged?

[jstern]

?Are you that dumb?

They were trying to score while someone was trying to stop them and FOULED THEM IN THE PROCESS. SO THEY GO TO THE DAMN LINE FOR TWO FREAKING SHOTS!

Don't let your hate cloud your judgment!
Check the hate.
Hate of what 82games or whatever they're called because I don't agree that free throws should be counted as game winners? Not everything is about Kobe, especially this, since a lot of players do get to shoot freethrows to close a game out, so it would take away from them.

Also I've never seen a game winner compilation on youtube, or ESPN or anywhere that has a player shooting freethows. How would they average them in their game winner percentage? Do the free throws count as a FG?

[catch24]

LA blows teams out more often. Why do you say its rigged?

Cleveland's won more games than LA has the past two seasons. As far as who's "blown out more teams"?

Beating teams by 10+ - 2008-09: LA 34, CLE 38
2009-2010: LA 27, CLE 31

[Bladers]

Hate of what 82games or whatever they're called because I don't agree that free throws should be counted as game winners? Not everything is about Kobe, especially this, since a lot of players do get to shoot freethrows to close a game out, so it would take away from them.

Also I've never seen a game winner compilation on youtube, or ESPN or anywhere that has a player shooting freethows. How would they average them in their game winner percentage? Do the free throws count as a FG?

No, freethrow are FTM/FTA.
Gamewinners are not confined to FGs.

I remember Billups game winner vs Celtics.
Ray allen fouled him on the game winning shot with 0.0 left in the game.
He went to the line and hit both FTs and won the game.

That is a game winner my brother.

[SinJackal]

A lot of you guys are arguing about the criteria of the stat being flawed (I disagree), but you obviously cannot argue that the stats are incorrect.

What's flawed imo, is just giving a list of game winners not accompanied by FG%. It's like saying AI was as efficiant a scorer as MJ because they both had 30 PPG on given years. Looking at their efficiancy, it's obvious MJ was better. The buckets alone aren't everything.

Also, you can't count only shots that resulted in a win, and not the ones that don't result in a win, otherwise you will see players with 10-20% FG%s and that isn't accurate. You can't discredit someone for a miss, but not credit them for a make just because the other team happened to jack up a shot and it went in.

So, stop crying about the stat already, and instead just insert "potential" in front of the "game winning shot %", and it's perfectly accurate and logical.



Obviously if you can read the post above...
Its not, Kobe has 31!
Lebron actually has like 3!

82games is setup to put Lebron on top.

Why are you still crying about that site? This is like the 4th day in a row now. You're still mad about it. Why?

You have already been told numerous times to pay attention to the site and actually read the heading, rather than glance at the numbers for five seconds then throw on ISH for a week over it.

It very specifically states it's from '03-'08, not '97-'10. Stop crying about it not showing all his game winners. Nowhere on the site does it say Kobe does not have more than 14 game winners, it's annoying that you keep making posts about it as if they do to take attention away from the fact that Kobe was shooting 25% in late game, game winning situations from '03-'08.



Just look through their stats and try your best not to cry.

4 ain't it? According to ESPN I remember it was 4/37?

It's funny they talk about LeBron's game winners missed, but not Kobe's.

FYI, 4/37 is exactly why not using the criteria on the site is an extremely flawed way to tally game winning shot %. Like I already said, you don't get credit for making them if the other team scores, but you lose credit if you miss. He's not really 4/37, he's just getting 0 credit for all his makes late in the game that didn't result in a win. That my friend, is far, far more flawed than talking about POTENTIAL game winning shots. Kobe's numbers would be similarly bad if you didn't include his makes that didn't result in a win. But you of course, will not see ESPN airing those numbers, as Kobe is the chosen face of the league currently.



I know, these definitions that I'm hearing here for the 1st time. If you look for game winning shots on youtube at most they usually have like 3 seconds left on the clock after scoring. In some of the lists here they're even counting free throws. How is a free throw a game winning shot. They're clutch free throws but not game winning shots where you score while someone is trying to stop you.

When you look at the Kobe list, they consider any shot made that puts the Lakers ahead (at say 98 points), and the other team never makes a shot (regardless of the time left on the clock) to put them at or above 98, they call it a game winner for Kobe. Kobe has a "game winner" with 55 seconds left on the clock. Most people don't consider making a shot with a minute left in the game to be a game winner, since the other team likely had at least 2, possibly 3 more possessions before that game was over.

With that logic, if Kobe makes a shot with 6 minutes left in the game against the TWolved, which happened to put LA ahead, then the Wolves score 0 points the rest of the 4th, it'll be counted as a "game winner". I don't agree with that, but that's their only criteria. What time is left in the game doesn't matter to them. Also, FG% doesn't matter to them. It's a broken, half-stat that doesn't give enough information.

[guy]

Because MAVS didn't score after that but they proceeded to foul bynum with secs left after missing their shot to put him on the line...

So yes, that shot won the game for them.



Well if you count that as a game-winner then Jordan definitely has considerably more then the 25 that nba.com (not espn) has given him credit for. Check out the link for the 25. None of them are in the same situation as the above Kobe game-winner. They're all one possession wins. A Jordan example I can think of thats similar to the above Kobe game-winner is the 92 ECF vs. the Cavs, which has been playing recently on NBATV, where he had a three-point play with like 30 seconds left that put them up for good. The Bulls ended up winning by like 5 points cause the Cavs were fouling at the end of the game.


http://www.nba.com/jordan/game_winners.html

[ginobli2311]

its not hard to understand.

too many of you are confusing game winners with buzzer beaters. buzzer beaters are probably the most over-rated clutch thing ever. they are way too circumstantial.

the 82games definition is not perfect. but its very fair. it gives most players a fair shot at making "game winners".

for example:

lets say the lakers are down 1 with 12 seconds to go and kobe hits a jumper to put the lakers up 1 with 8 seconds to go. now.....lets say the other team then hits a shot at the buzzer and wins. should we just ignore the fact that kobe made a big time clutch jumper in a tight game with less than 24 seconds remaining? of course not. kobe's jumper should go down as a "game winner" or "big time shot" or "game on the line play". that shot has to go down as something more than a "made fg" in advanced stats if we are talking about clutch play in game winning situations.

again. the stat is not perfect. but is far far far far better than straight buzzer beaters or straight game winners. lebron has been the best in the league in these situations over the last 5 years. lebron has also made far more game winning assists than most star players as well.

as a mavs fan that watches every game.....Dirk has also been truly amazing over the last 5 years as well in these situations. making countless game winning or game saving plays in the last 24 seconds.

the stat is certainly valid. just like the clutch stats with 5 minutes to go in a tight game are extremely valid. in any statistical analysis you want to widen the spectrum as much as possible to get an accurate reading. this is no different. if you just went off buzzer beaters are straight game winners....the sample size would be far too small to determine anything. most likely you would just get a result solely based on volume.

stop hating the stat just because you don't like the results. i think its very valid considering all the elite clutch players are right at the top. kobe/lebron/dirk/ray allen/carmelo......LOL...how anyone can knock a stat that has accurate results like this is beyond me. its the same thing with PER....all the great players are at the top....but people still bash it left and right. no....neither stat is the end all be all.....but use some common sense and context people....please.

[SinJackal]

Any stat that Kobe isn't leading or almost leading in is "invalid" to them. It goes against their obsolete, primitive Kobe fan programming that other players are actually better than him in certain factets of the game.

[jstern]

its not hard to understand.

too many of you are confusing game winners with buzzer beaters. buzzer beaters are probably the most over-rated clutch thing ever. they are way too circumstantial.

the 82games definition is not perfect. but its very fair. it gives most players a fair shot at making "game winners".

for example:

lets say the lakers are down 1 with 12 seconds to go and kobe hits a jumper to put the lakers up 1 with 8 seconds to go. now.....lets say the other team then hits a shot at the buzzer and wins. should we just ignore the fact that kobe made a big time clutch jumper in a tight game with less than 24 seconds remaining? of course not. kobe's jumper should go down as a "game winner" or "big time shot" or "game on the line play". that shot has to go down as something more than a "made fg" in advanced stats if we are talking about clutch play in game winning situations.

again. the stat is not perfect. but is far far far far better than straight buzzer beaters or straight game winners. lebron has been the best in the league in these situations over the last 5 years. lebron has also made far more game winning assists than most star players as well.

as a mavs fan that watches every game.....Dirk has also been truly amazing over the last 5 years as well in these situations. making countless game winning or game saving plays in the last 24 seconds.

the stat is certainly valid. just like the clutch stats with 5 minutes to go in a tight game are extremely valid. in any statistical analysis you want to widen the spectrum as much as possible to get an accurate reading. this is no different. if you just went off buzzer beaters are straight game winners....the sample size would be far too small to determine anything. most likely you would just get a result solely based on volume.

stop hating the stat just because you don't like the results. i think its very valid considering all the elite clutch players are right at the top. kobe/lebron/dirk/ray allen/carmelo......LOL...how anyone can knock a stat that has accurate results like this is beyond me. its the same thing with PER....all the great players are at the top....but people still bash it left and right. no....neither stat is the end all be all.....but use some common sense and context people....please.

It should be counted as a clutch shot, but not a game winner, since his team didn't win the game. The person who scored for the other team should be credited with the game winner. It's tough luck, just like even being in a game winning situation is all about circumstances, since depending on how good a team is, not all of them get to have the same amount of game winners opportunities.

[OnceInADECADE]

great post ginobili^^^^^^^^^^^

/thread

[SinJackal]

It should be counted as a clutch shot, but not a game winner, since his team didn't win the game. The person who scored for the other team should be credited with the game winner. It's tough luck, just like even being in a game winning situation is all about circumstances, since depending on how good a team is, not all of them get to have the same amount of game winners opportunities.

"potential game winner". Just call it that, and there's no argument for the stats on the site.

Making a bucket and waiting for the other team to miss isn't any more special just because they missed vs made one.

[jstern]

Any stat that Kobe isn't leading or almost leading in is "invalid" to them. It goes against their obsolete, primitive Kobe fan programming that other players are actually better than him in certain factets of the game.
That's what a fanboy does, ignores uncomfortable facts, almost as if they didn't even just see it. That includes ignoring any good thing that the person they dislike did, and magnifying anything negative about them.

[Bladers]

When you look at the Kobe list, they consider any shot made that puts the Lakers ahead (at say 98 points), and the other team never makes a shot (regardless of the time left on the clock) to put them at or above 98, they call it a game winner for Kobe. Kobe has a "game winner" with 55 seconds left on the clock. Most people don't consider making a shot with a minute left in the game to be a game winner, since the other team likely had at least 2, possibly 3 more possessions before that game was over.

With that logic, if Kobe makes a shot with 6 minutes left in the game against the TWolved, which happened to put LA ahead, then the Wolves score 0 points the rest of the 4th, it'll be counted as a "game winner". I don't agree with that, but that's their only criteria. What time is left in the game doesn't matter to them. Also, FG% doesn't matter to them. It's a broken, half-stat that doesn't give enough information.

Your logic is so flawed its not even funny!:facepalm
WHERE DO YOU SEE 55 SECONDS ON THIS LIST?

List of Kobe's notable game-winners:

1) 05/09/99 - Lakers 101, Rockets 100 (playoffs, game-winning FTs with 5.3 seconds remaining)
2) 12/27/99 - Lakers 108, Mavericks 106 (game-winning FTs)
3) 05/10/00 - Lakers 97, Phoenix 96 (playoffs, jumper over Jason Kidd)
4) 11/16/00 - Lakers 112, Kings 110 (game-tying three for OT, OT jumper for win)
5) 02/07/01 - Lakers 85, Phoenix 83 (jumper with 2.7 seconds remaining)
6) 02/13/01 - Lakers 113, Nets 110 (OT game-winning layup with the And-1)
7) 01/02/02 - Lakers 87, Nuggets 86 (offensive reb and jumper)
8) 02/22/02 - Lakers 96, Hornets 94 (first career buzzer-beater, jumper)
9) 03/24/02 - Lakers 97, Kings 96 (fade-away jumper, 2.6 seconds remaining)
10) 05/12/02 - Lakers 87, Spurs 85 (playoffs, offensive rebound and put-back)
11) 12/06/02 - Lakers 105, Mavericks 103 (28-point game comeback, spin-around jumper)
12) 04/04/03 - Lakers 102, Grizzlies 101 (buzzer-beater, jumper)
13) 04/06/03 - Lakers 115, Suns 113 (GW jumper with 28.6 seconds remaining)
14) 12/19/03 - Lakers 101, Nuggets 99 (game after the trial, buzzer-beating fade-away)
15) 02/17/04 - Lakers 89, Blazers 86 (layup and the foul)
16) 03/21/04 - Lakers 104, Bucks 103 (OT jumper with 25 seconds remaining)
17) 04/14/04 - Lakers 105, Blazers 104 (game-tying three for OT, OT GW buzzer-beating three)
18) 03/13/05 - Lakers 117, Bobcats 116 (pump fake jumper for the win)
19) 11/02/05 - Lakers 99, Nuggets 97 (OT jumper after the Kwame brick)
20) 12/04/05 - Lakers 99, Bobcats 98 (game-winning FTs)
21) 01/12/06 - Lakers 99, Cavaliers 98 (jumper against Lebron with 8 seconds to go)
22) 04/30/06 - Lakers 99, Suns 98 (playoffs, game-tying tear drop for OT, and OT game-winning jumper)
23) 01/14/08 - Lakers 123, Sonics 121 (OT game-winning jumper)
24) 01/09/09 - Lakers 121, Pacers 119 (jumper against Jarrett Jack with 3 seconds to go)
25) 12/04/09 - Lakers 108, Heat 107 (game-winning buzzer-beating three over Wade)
26) 12/16/09 - Lakers 107, Bucks 106 (game-winning buzzer-beating jumper over Bell)
27) 01/01/10 - Lakers 109, Kings 108 (game-winning buzzer-beating three, 4.1 seconds left and 0.1 remaining)
28) 01/13/10 - Lakers 100, Mavericks 95 (game-winning jumper with 28.9 seconds remaining)
29) 01/31/10 - Lakers 90, Celtics 89 (game-winning jumper with 7 secs remaining)
30) 02/23/10 - Lakers 99, Grizzlies 98 (game-winning jumper with 4.3 seconds remaining)
31) 03/10/10 - Lakers 109, Raptors 107 (game-winning fade-away with 1.9 seconds remaining)

GTFO WITH THAT AGENDA BS!

[ginobli2311]

Any stat that Kobe isn't leading or almost leading in is "invalid" to them. It goes against their obsolete, primitive Kobe fan programming that other players are actually better than him in certain factets of the game.

yep. lol at the idea that you can make a game winning shot with over a minute left. that is one reason why the 82 games stat is much better....it only counts shots made with 24 seconds or less left in a one possession game. its by far the best standard to measure game winners by that i have ever seen. it also takes into account fg%, turnovers, assists, and free throws. its a great stat.

so we can see that lebron gets to the line more often than kobe....but lebron makes a worse percentage. we see that lebron shoots 9% better than kobe in these situations. we see that Lebron passes the ball far more often in these situations with his 6 assists in 50 fg attempts while Kobe only has 1 assist in 56 fg attempts.

not only are these interesting....but they are shown in the games. when was the last time kobe made a great assists in a game winning situation? do you remember in the finals last year when Hedo blocked his shots because kobe tried to go one on three? those are the situations that get lost if you don't have a statistical analysis done properly like this. or how about kobe's airball against the suns? or his missed jumper against the thunder? those are all just swept under the rug if somebody isn't keeping track of everything.

you guys see the point. i think kobe has missed his last 10 potential game winners in the playoffs......but you'd never know with the idiotic and biased ESPN talking heads and the absurd "kobe fanbase" still calling him the best closer in the game even though he's far from it by and standards or measure.

you guys can call it flawed and invalid all you want. but the fact is that kobe is the best "buzzer beater" shotmaker in the league right now (well....ray allen might be....but lets say kobe)....but kobe is far from the best in potential game winning situations....and not the best in clutch play either. end of story.

[ginobli2311]

Your logic is so flawed its not even funny!:facepalm
WHERE DO YOU SEE 55 SECONDS ON THIS LIST?

List of Kobe's notable game-winners:

1) 05/09/99 - Lakers 101, Rockets 100 (playoffs, game-winning FTs with 5.3 seconds remaining)
2) 12/27/99 - Lakers 108, Mavericks 106 (game-winning FTs)
3) 05/10/00 - Lakers 97, Phoenix 96 (playoffs, jumper over Jason Kidd)
4) 11/16/00 - Lakers 112, Kings 110 (game-tying three for OT, OT jumper for win)
5) 02/07/01 - Lakers 85, Phoenix 83 (jumper with 2.7 seconds remaining)
6) 02/13/01 - Lakers 113, Nets 110 (OT game-winning layup with the And-1)
7) 01/02/02 - Lakers 87, Nuggets 86 (offensive reb and jumper)
8) 02/22/02 - Lakers 96, Hornets 94 (first career buzzer-beater, jumper)
9) 03/24/02 - Lakers 97, Kings 96 (fade-away jumper, 2.6 seconds remaining)
10) 05/12/02 - Lakers 87, Spurs 85 (playoffs, offensive rebound and put-back)
11) 12/06/02 - Lakers 105, Mavericks 103 (28-point game comeback, spin-around jumper)
12) 04/04/03 - Lakers 102, Grizzlies 101 (buzzer-beater, jumper)
13) 04/06/03 - Lakers 115, Suns 113 (GW jumper with 28.6 seconds remaining)
14) 12/19/03 - Lakers 101, Nuggets 99 (game after the trial, buzzer-beating fade-away)
15) 02/17/04 - Lakers 89, Blazers 86 (layup and the foul)
16) 03/21/04 - Lakers 104, Bucks 103 (OT jumper with 25 seconds remaining)
17) 04/14/04 - Lakers 105, Blazers 104 (game-tying three for OT, OT GW buzzer-beating three)
18) 03/13/05 - Lakers 117, Bobcats 116 (pump fake jumper for the win)
19) 11/02/05 - Lakers 99, Nuggets 97 (OT jumper after the Kwame brick)
20) 12/04/05 - Lakers 99, Bobcats 98 (game-winning FTs)
21) 01/12/06 - Lakers 99, Cavaliers 98 (jumper against Lebron with 8 seconds to go)
22) 04/30/06 - Lakers 99, Suns 98 (playoffs, game-tying tear drop for OT, and OT game-winning jumper)
23) 01/14/08 - Lakers 123, Sonics 121 (OT game-winning jumper)
24) 01/09/09 - Lakers 121, Pacers 119 (jumper against Jarrett Jack with 3 seconds to go)
25) 12/04/09 - Lakers 108, Heat 107 (game-winning buzzer-beating three over Wade)
26) 12/16/09 - Lakers 107, Bucks 106 (game-winning buzzer-beating jumper over Bell)
27) 01/01/10 - Lakers 109, Kings 108 (game-winning buzzer-beating three, 4.1 seconds left and 0.1 remaining)
28) 01/13/10 - Lakers 100, Mavericks 95 (game-winning jumper with 28.9 seconds remaining)
29) 01/31/10 - Lakers 90, Celtics 89 (game-winning jumper with 7 secs remaining)
30) 02/23/10 - Lakers 99, Grizzlies 98 (game-winning jumper with 4.3 seconds remaining)
31) 03/10/10 - Lakers 109, Raptors 107 (game-winning fade-away with 1.9 seconds remaining)

GTFO WITH THAT AGENDA BS!

i personally don't have much of a problem with that list. my only issues is that i think the time parameter should be 24 seconds or less. for example the mavs/lakers game this year. i just don't think that should be considered a game winner.....but that is just my opinion.

[Bladers]

its not hard to understand.

too many of you are confusing game winners with buzzer beaters. buzzer beaters are probably the most over-rated clutch thing ever. they are way too circumstantial.

the 82games definition is not perfect. but its very fair. it gives most players a fair shot at making "game winners".

for example:

lets say the lakers are down 1 with 12 seconds to go and kobe hits a jumper to put the lakers up 1 with 8 seconds to go. now.....lets say the other team then hits a shot at the buzzer and wins. should we just ignore the fact that kobe made a big time clutch jumper in a tight game with less than 24 seconds remaining? of course not. kobe's jumper should go down as a "game winner" or "big time shot" or "game on the line play". that shot has to go down as something more than a "made fg" in advanced stats if we are talking about clutch play in game winning situations.

again. the stat is not perfect. but is far far far far better than straight buzzer beaters or straight game winners. lebron has been the best in the league in these situations over the last 5 years. lebron has also made far more game winning assists than most star players as well.

as a mavs fan that watches every game.....Dirk has also been truly amazing over the last 5 years as well in these situations. making countless game winning or game saving plays in the last 24 seconds.

the stat is certainly valid. just like the clutch stats with 5 minutes to go in a tight game are extremely valid. in any statistical analysis you want to widen the spectrum as much as possible to get an accurate reading. this is no different. if you just went off buzzer beaters are straight game winners....the sample size would be far too small to determine anything. most likely you would just get a result solely based on volume.

stop hating the stat just because you don't like the results. i think its very valid considering all the elite clutch players are right at the top. kobe/lebron/dirk/ray allen/carmelo......LOL...how anyone can knock a stat that has accurate results like this is beyond me. its the same thing with PER....all the great players are at the top....but people still bash it left and right. no....neither stat is the end all be all.....but use some common sense and context people....please.


No those stats are completely retard.
and completely rigged for Lebron.
We have proved it already.

Lebron has 45 games counted with 151 mins.
Kobe has 28 games counted with 131 mins.

The difference shows me something malicious happened.
How convenient it was for the owner of 82games, he is clearly a lebron homer.

[SinJackal]

Your logic is so flawed its not even funny!:facepalm
WHERE DO YOU SEE 55 SECONDS ON THIS LIST?

List of Kobe's notable game-winners:

1) 05/09/99 - Lakers 101, Rockets 100 (playoffs, game-winning FTs with 5.3 seconds remaining)
2) 12/27/99 - Lakers 108, Mavericks 106 (game-winning FTs)
3) 05/10/00 - Lakers 97, Phoenix 96 (playoffs, jumper over Jason Kidd)
4) 11/16/00 - Lakers 112, Kings 110 (game-tying three for OT, OT jumper for win)
5) 02/07/01 - Lakers 85, Phoenix 83 (jumper with 2.7 seconds remaining)
6) 02/13/01 - Lakers 113, Nets 110 (OT game-winning layup with the And-1)
7) 01/02/02 - Lakers 87, Nuggets 86 (offensive reb and jumper)
8) 02/22/02 - Lakers 96, Hornets 94 (first career buzzer-beater, jumper)
9) 03/24/02 - Lakers 97, Kings 96 (fade-away jumper, 2.6 seconds remaining)
10) 05/12/02 - Lakers 87, Spurs 85 (playoffs, offensive rebound and put-back)
11) 12/06/02 - Lakers 105, Mavericks 103 (28-point game comeback, spin-around jumper)
12) 04/04/03 - Lakers 102, Grizzlies 101 (buzzer-beater, jumper)
13) 04/06/03 - Lakers 115, Suns 113 (GW jumper with 28.6 seconds remaining)
14) 12/19/03 - Lakers 101, Nuggets 99 (game after the trial, buzzer-beating fade-away)
15) 02/17/04 - Lakers 89, Blazers 86 (layup and the foul)
16) 03/21/04 - Lakers 104, Bucks 103 (OT jumper with 25 seconds remaining)
17) 04/14/04 - Lakers 105, Blazers 104 (game-tying three for OT, OT GW buzzer-beating three)
18) 03/13/05 - Lakers 117, Bobcats 116 (pump fake jumper for the win)
19) 11/02/05 - Lakers 99, Nuggets 97 (OT jumper after the Kwame brick)
20) 12/04/05 - Lakers 99, Bobcats 98 (game-winning FTs)
21) 01/12/06 - Lakers 99, Cavaliers 98 (jumper against Lebron with 8 seconds to go)
22) 04/30/06 - Lakers 99, Suns 98 (playoffs, game-tying tear drop for OT, and OT game-winning jumper)
23) 01/14/08 - Lakers 123, Sonics 121 (OT game-winning jumper)
24) 01/09/09 - Lakers 121, Pacers 119 (jumper against Jarrett Jack with 3 seconds to go)
25) 12/04/09 - Lakers 108, Heat 107 (game-winning buzzer-beating three over Wade)
26) 12/16/09 - Lakers 107, Bucks 106 (game-winning buzzer-beating jumper over Bell)
27) 01/01/10 - Lakers 109, Kings 108 (game-winning buzzer-beating three, 4.1 seconds left and 0.1 remaining)
28) 01/13/10 - Lakers 100, Mavericks 95 (game-winning jumper with 28.9 seconds remaining)
29) 01/31/10 - Lakers 90, Celtics 89 (game-winning jumper with 7 secs remaining)
30) 02/23/10 - Lakers 99, Grizzlies 98 (game-winning jumper with 4.3 seconds remaining)
31) 03/10/10 - Lakers 109, Raptors 107 (game-winning fade-away with 1.9 seconds remaining)

GTFO WITH THAT AGENDA BS!

First of all, you pathetic imbecile, your gay list does not have the time remaining on each of his shots, which means it's excluding the time.

See that one? 55 seconds left in the game when he made the shots.

gtfo with your boring fanboy bs, leaving out time on the clock when he made shots with way over 24 seconds left to go.

[ginobli2311]

No those stats are completely retard.
and completely rigged for Lebron.
We have proved it already.

Lebron has 42 games counted with 151 mins.
Kobe has 23 with 131 mins.

How convenient it was for the owner of 82games, he is clearly a lebron homer.

i hope you are not serious.

the numbers in clutch stats are all based on 48 minutes of clutch play. it has nothing to do with the amount of time. they are averages dude.

lebron played 151 minutes of clutch time this year. dirk played 171. kobe played 132. carmelo played 121. how is that rigged? its just stating facts.

and in that clutch time. lebron shot 49% from the field....while kobe shot 44%. in fact, the numbers are more shaded to kobe. lebron took more fga attempts per 48 minutes....therefore (as volume increases...shooting percentage should decrease)...meaning that because lebron was responsible for doing more...and had less help.....kobe's efficiency should be at and advantage.......LOL....far from reality though.

then we could go on and on about how much better lebron is in terms of passing, rebounding, getting to the line, defense, steals, blocks...etc.

AGAIN...THESE ARE AVERAGES. NOT TOTALS. THIS IS AN AVERAGE OF WHAT THESE GUYS DO PER 48 MINUTES OF CLUTCH TIME.

Your assertion makes no sense.....please don't bring that weak ass crap in here any more dude.

****ing owned again.

[Disaprine]

those stats aren't game winning shots, they use this definition instead...

"24 seconds or less left in the game, team with the ball is either tied or down by 1 to 2 points."

people need to read before complaining about it.

[SinJackal]

those stats aren't game winning shots, they use this definition instead...

"24 seconds or less left in the game, team with the ball is either tied or down by 1 to 2 points."

people need to read before complaining about it.

It's really not that specific. It's basically, you make a shot, at shot, that puts your team ahead if you were tied or down.

This can be a FT, FG, or 3pt FG when the game is tied, a FG of 3pt FG when you're down by 1, or a 3pt FG when you're down by 2. Any shot that puts you ahead, with 24 seconds or less on the clock.

Nothing wrong with the stat at all. It's a stat for potential game winners. As someone earlier unknowingly made the point of, if you include only potential game winning shots where the other team does not score with a few seconds left on the clock after making it, and yet include all misses late in the game, you will have 10-20% shot stats since you're excluding made shots as they didn't win the game.

I'm amazed at how people still aren't understanding this.

[Bladers]

First of all, you pathetic imbecile, your gay list does not have the time remaining on each of his shots, which means it's excluding the time.

See that one? 55 seconds left in the game when he made the shots.

gtfo with your boring fanboy bs, leaving out time on the clock when he made shots with way over 24 seconds left to go.

The nuggets didn't score.:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

[chazzy]

those stats aren't game winning shots, they use this definition instead...

"24 seconds or less left in the game, team with the ball is either tied or down by 1 to 2 points."

people need to read before complaining about it.

So by this standard, could one theoretically have multiple "game winning potential" shots in the same game?

[ginobli2311]

It's really not that specific. It's basically, you make a shot, at shot, that puts your team ahead if you were tied or down.

This can be a FT, FG, or 3pt FG when the game is tied, a FG of 3pt FG when you're down by 1, or a 3pt FG when you're down by 2. Any shot that puts you ahead, with 24 seconds or less on the clock.

Nothing wrong with the stat at all. It's a stat for potential game winners. As someone earlier unknowingly made the point of, if you include only potential game winning shots where the other team does not score with a few seconds left on the clock after making it, and yet include all misses late in the game, you will have 10-20% shot stats since you're excluding made shots as they didn't win the game.

I'm amazed at how people still aren't understanding this.

yep. its hilarious. they also cut out down three to further tighten up the stat because of so many teams giving up the easy 2. its a well thought out stat that is extremely valid....and again....its far more valid than buzzer beaters or straight game winners.

people.....please use your brain. this is getting retarded.

[Bladers]

those stats aren't game winning shots, they use this definition instead...

"24 seconds or less left in the game, team with the ball is either tied or down by 1 to 2 points."

people need to read before complaining about it.

Finally someone disprove those horrible junk...

I remember sinjackal talking about how MJ missed only 25 GW according to his opinion and how Kobe was 14/54 according to 82 games :facepalm

82games makes their own rules.
and now have been exposed multiple times.:banana: :banana: :banana:

[ginobli2311]

So by this standard, could one theoretically have multiple "game winning potential" shots in the same game?

yes. for example.....kobe against the suns in the playoffs in 06 (i think)...he made a game tying shot at the end of regulation and then the game winner in OT. he should definitely get credit for 2 game winning shots in the game. both were fantastic plays and deserve some notation other than "made fg" in an advanced stat compilation or discussion. why should we just forget the game saving play in regulation that kobe made? it was just as important as the game winner in OT.

the above is my main point. we can't go off straight game winners or buzzer beaters because too many misses and makes then fall through the cracks with the game on the line. i think anything over 24 seconds or less left is a little flawed because there could easily still be 3 or 4 shots for the other team depending on the situation.

[ginobli2311]

Finally someone disprove those horrible junk...

I remember sinjackal talking about how MJ missed only 25 GW according to his opinion and how Kobe was 14/54 according to 82 games :facepalm

82games makes their own rules.
and now have been exposed multiple times.:banana: :banana: :banana:

sorry....but you are an idiot sir.

[Bladers]

yep. its hilarious. they also cut out down three to further tighten up the stat because of so many teams giving up the easy 2. its a well thought out stat that is extremely valid....and again....its far more valid than buzzer beaters or straight game winners.

people.....please use your brain. this is getting retarded.

That is what makes it flawed, its not real Game winner, they are made up.
You won't find it on ESPN or NBA.com or any official NBA stats

MJ has 25 official GW, Kobe has 31 official GW, Lebron has about 4 or 5 official GW.
Just accept it and continue on with your life.

82games are nothing but fabricated stats.

[Disaprine]

So by this standard, could one theoretically have multiple "game winning potential" shots in the same game?
i never said that :lol i think your talking about sinjackal.

[SinJackal]

The nuggets didn't score.:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

And you were yet again proven wrong, and to be a liar.



Finally someone disprove those horrible junk...

I remember sinjackal talking about how MJ missed only 25 GW according to his opinion and how Kobe was 14/54 according to 82 games :facepalm

82games makes their own rules.
and now have been exposed multiple times.:banana: :banana: :banana:

According to MJ, not me. Stop lying.

Second time you're proven to be a liar within 10 minutes.



82games are nothing but fabricated stats.

Prove it, rather than keep lying.

So far, you've lied in every post you tried to state a fact in. You obviously just wish it were fabricated, since it hurts the rep of your hero.

[chazzy]

yes. for example.....kobe against the suns in the playoffs in 06 (i think)...he made a game tying shot at the end of regulation and then the game winner in OT. he should definitely get credit for 2 game winning shots in the game. both were fantastic plays and deserve some notation other than "made fg" in an advanced stat compilation or discussion. why should we just forget the game saving play in regulation that kobe made? it was just as important as the game winner in OT.

the above is my main point. we can't go off straight game winners or buzzer beaters because too many misses and makes then fall through the cracks with the game on the line. i think anything over 24 seconds or less left is a little flawed because there could easily still be 3 or 4 shots for the other team depending on the situation.

Yeah, also Duncan's runner before the 0.4 shot as well. These are great clutch shots, not game winners though.. that can't really be disputed. I just don't like the label of "game winner" when you could actually get multiple "game winners" in a game that you lost.

[ginobli2311]

That is what makes it flawed, its not real Game winner, they are made up.
You won't find it on ESPN or NBA.com or any official NBA stats

MJ has 25 GW, Kobe has 31, Lebron has about 4 or 5.
Just accept it and continue on with your life.

82games are nothing but fabricated stats.

on just real game winners i can probably think of at least 8 for lebron. but that is beside the point. we don't want straight volume. we want efficiency. assists...turnovers....ft attempts/ft makes.

since when do we just go off volume? so iverson is a much better offensive player than kobe in your opinion? he scores a lot more. so if you just go off volume iverson destroys kobe.

you can't just throw out all context. and again i question your definition of a game winner if you count kobe making a jumper with 29 seconds left and the other team has 3 more shots and kobe's team scores three more points from the line. if that is a game winner than i guarantee you that lebron has close to 30 right now.

[catch24]

Game tying shots shouldn't be associated with game winners (the scorer puts their team ahead for GOOD), period.

A game tying basket is and will always be considered 'clutch', nothing more.

[ginobli2311]

Yeah, also Duncan's runner before the 0.4 shot as well. These are great clutch shots, not game winners though.. that can't really be disputed. I just don't like the label of "game winner" when you could actually get multiple "game winners" in a game that you lost.

yea. the label should be changed. but that is just semantics in my opinion. call them "potential game winners"

or "game changing shots" or "game saving plays"

the label is misleading. but the stats aren't in my opinion. i like seeing that lebron passes the ball often and well in late game winning situations. i validates what my eyes see. just like it validates that i knew kobe never passes and i knew his actual percentage of makes would be much worse than people think because nobody ever remembers his misses. just like kobe has missed his last 10 or more game winning shots in the playoffs. nobody is talking about that.

but i agree that they aren't true game winners. but true game winners are just so rare that it becomes a flawed stat with a far too small sample size to get any accurate reading at all.

[SinJackal]

Compilation of Bladers getting owned in this thread:



WHERE DO YOU SEE 55 SECONDS ON THIS LIST?


First of all, you pathetic imbecile, your gay list does not have the time remaining on each of his shots, which means it's excluding the time.

7) 01/02/02 - Lakers 87, Nuggets 86 (offensive reb and jumper)

See that one? 55 seconds left in the game when he made the shots.

gtfo with your boring fanboy bs, leaving out time on the clock when he made shots with way over 24 seconds left to go.

Warning: Critical failure.



I remember sinjackal talking about how MJ missed only 25 GW according to his opinion and how Kobe was 14/54 according to 82 games :facepalm


According to MJ, not me. Stop lying.

Second time you're proven to be a liar within 10 minutes.

Failed again.



82games are nothing but fabricated stats.



Prove it, rather than keep lying.

So far, you've lied in every post you tried to state a fact in. You obviously just wish it were fabricated, since it hurts the rep of your hero.

And you still haven't proven it. Sad.

This almost feels like I'm fighting a retard who has no arms or legs, it's just too easy.

[no pun intended]

When I clicked on the link, the first thing I looked for was Dirk's free throws. Notorious for not doing well when it matters like the Mavs in the playoff run. Hopefully he will have better luck.

[tpols]

yea. the label should be changed. but that is just semantics in my opinion. call them "potential game winners"

or "game changing shots" or "game saving plays"

the label is misleading. but the stats aren't in my opinion. i like seeing that lebron passes the ball often and well in late game winning situations. i validates what my eyes see. just like it validates that i knew kobe never passes and i knew his actual percentage of makes would be much worse than people think because nobody ever remembers his misses. just like kobe has missed his last 10 or more game winning shots in the playoffs. nobody is talking about that.

but i agree that they aren't true game winners. but true game winners are just so rare that it becomes a flawed stat with a far too small sample size to get any accurate reading at all.
Game- changing shots are not game winners. A shot at the 2 minute mark could be a 'game-changing shot' but that doesn't make it a game winner. Game winners are shots with minimal time on the clock that are made to give your team the lead.

You're saying the sample size is too small when we're comparing players that have all taken 30+ game winning shots in their careers and all it takes to have a statistically viable sample size is 30 sample points per player. So we actually do have enough to look into the data. Kobe has the most if I'm not mistaken and his career will include more.:confusedshrug:

[moey-]

That is what makes it flawed, its not real Game winner, they are made up.
You won't find it on ESPN or NBA.com or any official NBA stats

MJ has 25 official GW, Kobe has 31 official GW, Lebron has about 4 or 5 official GW.
Just accept it and continue on with your life.

82games are nothing but fabricated stats.

exactly. Ginobli really is stupid :lol

[SinJackal]

Game- changing shots are not game winners. A shot at the 2 minute mark could be a 'game-changing shot' but that doesn't make it a game winner. Game winners are shots with minimal time on the clock that are made to give your team the lead.

You're saying the sample size is too small when we're comparing players that have all taken 30+ game winning shots in their careers and all it takes to have a statistically viable sample size is 30 sample points per player. So we actually do have enough to look into the data. Kobe has the most if I'm not mistaken and his career will include more.:confusedshrug:

But Kobe's game winners list doesn't include these types of shots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egOHhSRWuOo

^ LeBron forcing Kobe to brick a game winner

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_L9RwQ1jiU&feature=related

^ LeBron nailing a shot in Kobe's eye to put the game out of reach.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lreP7dfZnyM&feature=related

^ Barkley annoyed at people still calling Kobe the best player, and at people with the audasity to compare him to Jordan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPvz9MXK7tk

^ Kobe missing another game winner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8oUP7epa-Y

^ Kobe misses yet another game winner.


Kobe has the most game winners made for active players, yes. However, he also has the most misses.

All of you Kobe fans convieniently try to leave out all the game winners he misses, and yes, he has TONS of game winning misses. He in fact, leads the league in them.

That's the whole point of the potential game winners stat. To put a number to how often these players are actually making their last second shots when the game's on the line, and not just list off ones he made, ignoring his nearly 100 game losing bricks.

You guys are like a dumb husband that won't believe his wife's cheating on him even when she comes home with matted hair and a used condom hanging out of her panties. Regardless of the evidence you see before you, you will keep denying it.

[Simple Jack]

WTF you been smoking? Its been proven that Jordan has 25...
WTF?:facepalm

No it hasn't. OldSchoolBBall posted 5+ game winners that weren't included in Jordan's list.

How much do I have to pay you to stop trolling?

[Simple Jack]

Those Sortable NBA Player "Clutch" Stats are not only flawed. But rigged.
If you look you see that Lebron has 45 games (151mins) counted but Kobe has 28 games (132mins).


That right there is the reason why their method is flawed and a complete joke..

It's per 48 minutes; not total stats. A larger sample size would probably hurt a player here considering it's harder to maintain high level of play in the clutch consistently nearly every time the situation arises. Have you taken statistics in your life?

[Bladers]

But Kobe's game winners list doesn't include these types of shots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egOHhSRWuOo

^ LeBron forcing Kobe to brick a game winner

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_L9RwQ1jiU&feature=related

^ LeBron nailing a shot in Kobe's eye to put the game out of reach.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lreP7dfZnyM&feature=related

^ Barkley annoyed at people still calling Kobe the best player, and at people with the audasity to compare him to Jordan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPvz9MXK7tk

^ Kobe missing another game winner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8oUP7epa-Y

^ Kobe misses yet another game winner.


Kobe has the most game winners made for active players, yes. However, he also has the most misses.

All of you Kobe fans convieniently try to leave out all the game winners he misses, and yes, he has TONS of game winning misses. He in fact, leads the league in them.

That's the whole point of the potential game winners stat. To put a number to how often these players are actually making their last second shots when the game's on the line, and not just list off ones he made, ignoring his nearly 100 game losing bricks.

You guys are like a dumb husband that won't believe his wife's cheating on him even when she comes home with matted hair and a used condom hanging out of her panties. Regardless of the evidence you see before you, you will keep denying it.

Did you watch the Game winner Kobe had on Lebron?
Kobe hit 3 straight clutch fadeaway jumper to win the game.
and the last one came with 8 secs left on Lebron.
Lebron had an oppurtunity to win it but bricked.

You might wanna watch it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsCanLulkrc

"Bryant putting moves on james, here's BRYANT, YES!!!!!!!!"

OWNED!
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Droid101]

I hate their definition.

A real, balls-out game winner is if you are losing the game if you miss (down one or two points) and will win the game if you hit (no overtime nonsense) and they shot it at the buzzer (no possessions afterward).

[Bladers]

No it hasn't. OldSchoolBBall posted 5+ game winners that weren't included in Jordan's list.

How much do I have to pay you to stop trolling?

Posted what? Where was the source? post them.
Btw, where is SinJackal... I owned him and he left, LOL.

[DirkNowitzki41]

Wow... seems a little high.

[catch24]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsCanLulkrc

"Bryant putting moves on james, here's BRYANT, YES!!!!!!!!"

While I don't condone your trolling, those last 3 shots Kobe hit (all in LeBron's eye) were amazing. Especially when you consider Kobe wasn't having the best night offensively. Dude has ice in his veins in the clutch, gotta admire that.

[Bladers]

Wow... seems a little high.

Finally a person with an IQ seeing what I'm seeing.

[macpierce]

When it comes to game winning jumpshots, ill go with Kobe currently over lebron easily, game winning layups go to lebron.

[Simple Jack]

Posted what? Where was the source? post them.
Btw, where is SinJackal... I owned him and he left, LOL.

LOL he posted the video footage of the game and basketball-reference box score to prove the game existed....

[Simple Jack]

Did you watch the Game winner Kobe had on Lebron?
Kobe hit 3 straight clutch fadeaway jumper to win the game.
and the last one came with 8 secs left on Lebron.
Lebron had an oppurtunity to win it but bricked.

You might wanna watch it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsCanLulkrc

"Bryant putting moves on james, here's BRYANT, YES!!!!!!!!"

OWNED!
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Why are you getting so defensive? He posts a video that makes a point that he was arguing about and you post one completely unrelated, enlarge your font, bold/capitalize your post, and put about 6 icons...this is a trend for nearly all of your posts. Give it a rest already man.

[Bladers]

LOL he posted the video footage of the game and basketball-reference box score to prove the game existed....

Are you talking about "the game" as in "one" single game.
I remember he only posted one.
Where is the other 4 you were trolling about?
Or did you make them all up?

FABULOUS TROLLING
:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Simple Jack]

Are you talking about "the game" as in "one" single game.
I remember he only posted one.
Where is the other 4 you were trolling about?
Or did you make them all up?

FABULOUS TROLLING
:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

He distinctly listed each of them. Care to wager something on them being true? Before your epic troll job, there was a thread on this in the forum with people posting game footage from the games not mentioned. It's kind of hard to get youtube footage for a specific single game in the regular season from pre 1990.

If OldSchoolBBall gets proof of all of these games, can you consider never posting on this forum again?

Let me try your style out...
:rockon: :rockon: :applause: :roll: :cheers: :oldlol:

[dyna]

But this is a game winning shot and block by lebron or not??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2snGTIQw8n0#t=4m24s

:confusedshrug:

[Bladers]

Where is sinjackal?:oldlol:

[Bladers]

Why are you getting so defensive? He posts a video that makes a point that he was arguing about and you post one completely unrelated, enlarge your font, bold/capitalize your post, and put about 6 icons...this is a trend for nearly all of your posts. Give it a rest already man.


Did the content of the video give you a heart-attack?:oldlol: :oldlol:

[TheLogo]

I laugh at 17 game winners by Lebron.

I can only remember 2 game winners he hit....one against Golden State and the other was in the playoffs against Orlando.

I will be glad if someone would dig up these game winners.

[dyna]

Maybe not exactly a winning shot but i like this clutch shot (Kobe vs Lebron):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA9ruQJ-STk#t=1m55s

[Jordan-esque]

http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

According to this site. Does that seem surprisingly high to anyone else? Hasn't tracked the last season and a half either...
Please Read Carefully: the DISCLAIMER on that same site reads:


"Obviously though this definition means a shot may not actually be a game winner -- it may only tie a game (if down two points) or it may allow enough time for the opponents to get a game winning shot of their own. Still it seems a reasonable compromise."

So why call the list game winners, when you also include game-tying shots?

Roland Beech (guy who wrote that 82games list) should rename his thread to say "NBA Game Winning AND Game Tying Shots".

Not only that, but his Data Sample is only from:


Data sample
Regular Seasons: '03-04, '04-05, '05-06, '06-07, '07-08, '08-09 (thru 2/4)
Playoffs: '03-04, '04-05, '05-06, '06-07, '07-08

Basically 2003 - 2009.

Only 6 years.

That short data sample makes it unfair in comparison to guys like Vince Carter, Kobe Bryant, Ray Allen, and Allen Iverson, etc. who have all played during the 1990's years before.

If he's going to make a list, why not compile every single one per player, from the start of their carreer to their current.

It's like someone using a data sample of 2009 - 2010 and saying Kobe has 7 game-winners but Carmelo only has 2 and LeBron only had 1. How fair would that be?

[Bladers]

Disclaimer on the thread reads:



So why call the list game winners, when you also include game-tying shots?

Roland Beech (guy who wrote that 82games list) should rename his thread to say "NBA Game Winning AND Game Tying Shots".

Not only that, but his data sample is only from:



Basically 2003 to early 2009.

Only 6 years.

If that is the case. Kobe had about 10+ of these last year..
I also remember his game tying against miami to send it to OT and against Magics and plenty more just in the 09-10 season.

This stat is just flawed in every way.

[RazorBaLade]

Please Read Carefully: the DISCLAIMER on that same site reads:



So why call the list game winners, when you also include game-tying shots?

Roland Beech (guy who wrote that 82games list) should rename his thread to say "NBA Game Winning AND Game Tying Shots".

Not only that, but his Data Sample is only from:



Basically 2003 - 2009.

Only 6 years.

That short data sample makes it unfair in comparison to guys like Vince Carter, Kobe Bryant, Ray Allen, and Allen Iverson, etc. who have all played during the 1990's years before.

If he's going to make a list, why not compile every single one per player, from the start of their carreer to their current.

It's like someone using a data sample of 2009 - 2010 and saying Kobe has 7 game-winners but Carmelo only has 2 and LeBron only had 1. How fair would that be?

exactly. that site is run by a leb fan. should be called potential game winning and tying shots

[ginobli2311]

exactly. that site is run by a leb fan. should be called potential game winning and tying shots

great. so the label should be different. i agree.

so lets just agree that lebron is better than kobe with 24 seconds or less with the game tied or either team up by 1 or 2 points. pretty tough to debate that. what you call it does not matter really.

in a tight game with 24 seconds left. lebron is superior. he makes a higher percentage of shots. he averages 6 times as many assists and he gets to the line more often. combine that with his clutch stats and it becomes an even wider gap.

kobe is clearly better at buzzer beaters......but thats it in terms of clutch play though.

[Bladers]

great. so the label should be different. i agree.

so lets just agree that lebron is better than kobe with 24 seconds or less with the game tied or either team up by 1 or 2 points. pretty tough to debate that. what you call it does not matter really.

in a tight game with 24 seconds left. lebron is superior. he makes a higher percentage of shots. he averages 6 times as many assists and he gets to the line more often. combine that with his clutch stats and it becomes an even wider gap.

kobe is clearly better at buzzer beaters......but thats it in terms of clutch play though.

LMAO @ this troll.
According to 82games, Kobe had more than 10 of those JUST last season but they decide not to update it... Instead they picked years favorable to Lebron.

[tpols]

great. so the label should be different. i agree.

so lets just agree that lebron is better than kobe with 24 seconds or less with the game tied or either team up by 1 or 2 points. pretty tough to debate that. what you call it does not matter really.

in a tight game with 24 seconds left. lebron is superior. he makes a higher percentage of shots. he averages 6 times as many assists and he gets to the line more often. combine that with his clutch stats and it becomes an even wider gap.

kobe is clearly better at buzzer beaters......but thats it in terms of clutch play though.
I wouldn't agree with that for a second. You're saying lebron is better in the clutch when kobe has had many more game winning moments, and is wearing 5 rings on his finger. :facepalm Please leave man. No one wants to hear you're trolling again.

[Bladers]

I wouldn't agree with that for a second. You're saying lebron is better in the clutch when kobe has had many more game winning moments, and is wearing 5 rings on his finger. :facepalm Please leave man. No one wants to hear you're trolling again.

I'm surprised that he hasn't changed a bit.
Heck, I'm officially canceling the party.
The troll hasn't change at all, I thought maybe in his return.
He would have achieved wisdom, a better IQ and be fair and balanced.
But I was wrong, he is still a troll.
:facepalm

[ginobli2311]

I wouldn't agree with that for a second. You're saying lebron is better in the clutch when kobe has had many more game winning moments, and is wearing 5 rings on his finger. :facepalm Please leave man. No one wants to hear you're trolling again.

ok. what do titles have to do with this? nothing. nothing at all. so there is one point that holds no water.

every stat. everything points to lebron being the better clutch player. and forget stats. did you watch the nba finals? did you see how awful kobe was in crunch time? his 4th qtrs were just terrible.....actually....beyond terrible. he shot 25% in the 4th qtr for THE SERIES and he had costly turnovers in all three of the losses.

he doesn't defend well down the stretch anymore. he turns it over a lot. he shoots a low percentage. he doesn't get to the rim or foul line often. he takes awful shots. he does not move or pass the ball on time. its just hilarious.

kobe has played 14 years. lebron has played 7. of course kobe is going to have more game winning shots. lebron easily has half of what kobe has in terms of game winners and has been just as good or better in those moments over the last 5 years.

please answer this.....when was the last time kobe made a game winner in the playoffs? thanks.

[RazorBaLade]

great. so the label should be different. i agree.

so lets just agree that lebron is better than kobe with 24 seconds or less with the game tied or either team up by 1 or 2 points. pretty tough to debate that. what you call it does not matter really.

in a tight game with 24 seconds left. lebron is superior. he makes a higher percentage of shots. he averages 6 times as many assists and he gets to the line more often. combine that with his clutch stats and it becomes an even wider gap.

kobe is clearly better at buzzer beaters......but thats it in terms of clutch play though.

I don't really know how you got that. If whether or not you win the game is not a factor, then there's no reason that the last 24 seconds should be the time frame to decide clutchness. You can have a clutch play 5 minutes into the game, if winning the game is not a part of the criteria then there shouldn't be a time frame.

Gino, in 06.

[ginobli2311]

I'm surprised that he hasn't changed a bit.
Heck, I'm officially canceling the party.
The troll hasn't change at all, I thought maybe in his return.
He would have achieved wisdom, a better IQ and be fair and balanced.
But I was wrong, he is still a troll.
:facepalm

just tell me why kobe is better than lebron in the clutch. why?

[ginobli2311]

I don't really know how you got that. If whether or not you win the game is not a factor, then there's no reason that the last 24 seconds should be the time frame to decide clutchness. You can have a clutch play 5 minutes into the game, if winning the game is not a part of the criteria then there shouldn't be a time frame.

Gino, in 06.

it totally disagree. how can you not think that a game with 24 seconds or less with the game within 2 points either way is not more important than 5 minutes into a game?

its laughable. forget calling it game winners. just call it clutch play with 24 seconds or less left with either team up or down by 2. if that isn't the very definition of uber crunch time then i'm very confused.

so again....forget calling it game winners. its just a stat that measures how well a player plays in those conditions....and those conditions are very important and are a very good indicator of how "clutch" and "smart" a player is at the end of tight games.

for example....kobe only having one assists in 56 game winning shot attempts. it validates everything i've watched. kobe refuses to pass in those situations and that is why he has no assists and that is why he shoots 9% less than lebron. its pretty simple.

[Bladers]

just tell me why kobe is better than lebron in the clutch. why?

What do you mean why?
Lebron doesn't have a jumper, Kobe has a killer jumper, especially in though situation. He can hit killer though shots all day.

Like this one on Lebron on that buzzer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYLhdgHJRwc

This is what you call a legit stroke.
Its proven because he has 31 legit game winners in his career.

Lebron has about 4-5 legit game winners in his career, 2 of them came from layups.

31> 4or5 anyday.

By a far margin.
I shouldn't even the one proving anything, the facts are there.
Only the one's blind with hate for Kobe and man love for Lebron will disagree.
The neutral NBA fans see it.

[Simple Jack]

Did the content of the video give you a heart-attack?:oldlol: :oldlol:

No. Why would it?

We need a new movement here on ISH to get rid of all these trolls.

[Simple Jack]

I laugh at 17 game winners by Lebron.

I can only remember 2 game winners he hit....one against Golden State and the other was in the playoffs against Orlando.

I will be glad if someone would dig up these game winners.

You didn't see the one's vs the Wizards? Or vs Detroit? Hornets? Bobcats?

[ginobli2311]

What do you mean why?
Lebron doesn't have a jumper, Kobe has a killer jumper, especially in though situation. He can hit killer though shots all day.

Like this one on Lebron on that buzzer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYLhdgHJRwc

This is what you call a legit stroke.
Its proven because he has 31 legit game winners in his career.

Lebron has about 4-5 legit game winners in his career, 2 of them came from layups.

31> 4or5 anyday.

By a far margin.
I shouldn't even the one proving anything, the facts are there.
Only the one's blind with hate for Kobe and man love for Lebron will disagree.
The neutral NBA fans see it.

dude.

i've seen your list of 31. you credited kobe with a game winner with 29 seconds left against the mavs. you credited kobe with one with over 30 seconds left. lebron easily has 20 to 25 of these already. do you really want to talk about how many shots lebron has made in the final 30 seconds to give his team a lead? i'd be willing to bet that number is easily at 30 already right now....and he's played 7 less YEARS. you can't have it both ways. you can't give kobe credit for a game winner in that mavs game and then turn around and discredit Lebron's shots made that aren't at the buzzer....its laughable.

do you realize that kobe has played 7 more years in the league than lebron? are you serious with this stuff?

i totally agree that kobe has a better jumper. but it doesn't translate into anything. kobe is less efficient from the field overall and in game winning situations and crunch time.

how can you penalize lebron for winning a game on a layup? what??????? how does that make sense? its all about making shots....and lebron makes more shots than kobe. how the **** cares how the ball gets into the basket. and lebron passes the ball more often and much better than kobe as well. evidenced by kobe only having 1 assist in that criteria. lebron had 6 in less attempts....LOL.

and again....how many game winners does kobe have in the playoffs for his career? how many has he made in the last few years? because my guess is that Lebron (in only 5 years in the playoffs) has as many as kobe has had his entire career.

[Bladers]

In a 2009 Sports Illustrated poll, 76 percent of NBA players chose him as the player they'd want to take the last shot with the game on the line.

With the game on the line, which NBA player would you want to take the last shot?

Kobe Bryant, Lakers G.....76%
Chauncey Billups, Nuggets G.....3%
LeBron James, Cavaliers F.....3%
Paul Pierce, Celtics F.....3%
Dwyane Wade, Heat G.....2%

[Simple Jack]

What do you mean why?
Lebron doesn't have a jumper, Kobe has a killer jumper, especially in though situation. He can hit killer though shots all day.

Like this one on Lebron on that buzzer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYLhdgHJRwc

This is what you call a legit stroke.
Its proven because he has 31 legit game winners in his career.

Lebron has about 4-5 legit game winners in his career, 2 of them came from layups.

31> 4or5 anyday.

By a far margin.
I shouldn't even the one proving anything, the facts are there.
Only the one's blind with hate for Kobe and man love for Lebron will disagree.
The neutral NBA fans see it.


http://www.82games.com/0910/09CLE11.HTM

On jumpshots, with 5 minutes left in close games, LeBron shoots 64%. He shoots 49% in the same interval for total FG, with 80.5% ft.

LOL at having no jumpshot.

[LA_Showtime]

Why isn't it outta 100%? :lol

[ginobli2311]

In a 2009 Sports Illustrated poll, 76 percent of NBA players chose him as the player they'd want to take the last shot with the game on the line.

With the game on the line, which NBA player would you want to take the last shot?

Kobe Bryant, Lakers G.....76%
Chauncey Billups, Nuggets G.....3%
LeBron James, Cavaliers F.....3%
Paul Pierce, Celtics F.....3%
Dwyane Wade, Heat G.....2%

and i would choose kobe as well. but that is a buzzer beater. we are talking about something different. you still can't get it through your thick skull. buzzer beaters are far different.

but even so. that poll is laughable. it just shows you that no matter what happens on the court. the hype machine from the media and espn really do control public perception. even though lebron has been better in these situations.....certainly in the playoffs over the last few years.....kobe still gets more credit because espn calls him "the best closer in the game"

i don't get it. i just watch the games to judge what is going on and who the best is. and lebron is just flat out better in these situations.

again....when was the last time kobe made a game winner in the playoffs?

crickets...crickets.....crickets......

i think he's missed his last ten plus....maybe more. lebron has made a 4 or 5 in the last few years.

****ing owned again.

[LAClipsFan33]

Why isn't it outta 100%? :lol

:lol

Owned

[alanLA92]

it is too high prob counting lebron's shots that gave his team the lead late in the game and "never looked back"

[Bladers]

dude.

i've seen your list of 31. you credited kobe with a game winner with 29 seconds left against the mavs. you credited kobe with one with over 30 seconds left. lebron easily has 20 to 25 of these already.

do you really want to talk about how many shots lebron has made in the final 30 seconds to give his team a lead? i'd be willing to bet that number is easily at 30 already right now....and he's played 7 less YEARS. you can't have it both ways. you can't give kobe credit for a game winner in that mavs game and then turn around and discredit Lebron's shots made that aren't at the buzzer....its laughable.



Game winners are not buzzer beaters you dummy, you keep bringing it up.

Game winning shot = A shot with seconds left in the game when your team is down or tied. You make the shot to take the lead and eventually win it without the opponent scoring to tie or take it back and your teammates not making a jumper after that.

LEBRON ONLY HAS 4/5.
GTFO Please...

[Bladers]

and i would choose kobe as well. but that is a buzzer beater. we are talking about something different. you still can't get it through your thick skull. buzzer beaters are far different.

but even so. that poll is laughable. it just shows you that no matter what happens on the court. the hype machine from the media and espn really do control public perception. even though lebron has been better in these situations.....certainly in the playoffs over the last few years.....kobe still gets more credit because espn calls him "the best closer in the game"

i don't get it. i just watch the games to judge what is going on and who the best is. and lebron is just flat out better in these situations.

again....when was the last time kobe made a game winner in the playoffs?

crickets...crickets.....crickets......

i think he's missed his last ten plus....maybe more. lebron has made a 4 or 5 in the last few years.

****ing owned again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUer3k_jzH0

OWNED!!!
HOW DOES IT FEEL?

[ginobli2311]

Game winners are not buzzer beaters you dummy, you keep bringing it up.

Game winning shot = A shot with seconds left in the game when your team is down or tied. You make the shot to take the lead and eventually win it without the opponent scoring to tie or take it back and your teammates not making a jumper after that.

LEBRON ONLY HAS 4/5.
GTFO Please...

oh my god. no he doesn't. he has at least 20 of those. dude...you gave kobe credit for a game winner when he made a shot to put his team up 2 with 29 seconds left this year. LOL......if you think lebron only has 4 or 5 shots like that in his career you are ****ing high.

[TheLogo]

Blade owning that ginobili troll as usual.

[ginobli2311]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUer3k_jzH0

OWNED!!!
HOW DOES IT FEEL?

owned.....you have to go back to 06....

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAA'
A
AHAHAHAHAHA
AH
A
HAHAHAH
A
HHAAHA
HHAA
H

AHAHAHA
AHA
AH

AHHA

06. that was his last game winner in the playoffs. lebron has about 4 or 5 IN THE PLAYOFFS SINCE THEN. kobe hasn't made a game winner in the playoffs since 06? really....wow.....

****ing owned again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmSAu9y8Ikw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhiY3jVoAuM
go to the 9:10 mark

LOL......then go look at the wizards game winners in the playoffs as well. so lebron has at leats 4 playoff game winners in the last five years.....and kobe has how many again?

thanks.....****ing owned again.

[Bladers]

oh my god. no he doesn't. he has at least 20 of those. dude...you gave kobe credit for a game winner when he made a shot to put his team up 2 with 29 seconds left this year. LOL......if you think lebron only has 4 or 5 shots like that in his career you are ****ing high.

You mad? cause it seems like you didn't read my post.
Wait a minute, let me own you again.

"Game winners are not buzzer beaters you dummy, you keep bringing it up.

"Game winning shot = A shot with seconds left in the game when your team is down or tied. You make the shot to take the lead and eventually win it without the opponent scoring to tie or take it back and your teammates(or you) not making a jumper after that.

LEBRON ONLY HAS 4/5.
GTFO Please..."

OWNED!!!

[TheLogo]

Lebron is very overrated in the clutch.

Let's not forget his turnover problems in the clutch that nobody mentions.

[Simple Jack]

You mad? cause it seems like you didn't read my post.
Wait a minute, let me own you again.

"Game winners are not buzzer beaters you dummy, you keep bringing it up.

"Game winning shot = A shot with seconds left in the game when your team is down or tied. You make the shot to take the lead and eventually win it without the opponent scoring to tie or take it back and your teammates(or you) not making a jumper after that.

LEBRON ONLY HAS 4/5.
GTFO Please..."

OWNED!!!

:facepalm

[tpols]

just tell me why kobe is better than lebron in the clutch. why?
I can't believe this troll is using STATS to justify clutch play.

Clutch plays are not defined by stats. They are defined by pure context and are situational every single time. To try and use stats to say one guy is more clutch than another is not only illogical, but it is very stupid.

Both are great players in the clutch, and :lol lol at you thinking lebron is better because of stats... wow he has game winners over the washington wizards and the over-thehill-pistons! OMG! But of course all gamewinners are the same to you statboy. Please troll somewhere else.

[ginobli2311]

You mad? cause it seems like you didn't read my post.
Wait a minute, let me own you again.

"Game winners are not buzzer beaters you dummy, you keep bringing it up.

"Game winning shot = A shot with seconds left in the game when your team is down or tied. You make the shot to take the lead and eventually win it without the opponent scoring to tie or take it back and your teammates not making a jumper after that.

LEBRON ONLY HAS 4/5.
GTFO Please..."

OWNED!!!

no he doesn't. he has at least 20 of those moron. i can think of 8 off the top of my head. so 4 or 5 is laughable. i bet i could find 20 of those in a couple hours going over play by plays.

lebron has:

hornets
warriors
2 against wizards
magic
portland
2 against pistons
nets
hawks
heat

so lets see. that is 11 off the top of my head.

LOL....****ing owned again.

keep making shit up dude.

its hilarious.

[TheLogo]

www.dolem.com/kobe

All sourced out with the situation.

I need sources and situations for Lebron's...till I see some proof I will hold back on saying Lebron is more clutch than Kobe.

Let's not forget that Lebron turns the ball over in the clutch too.

[Bladers]

no he doesn't. he has at least 20 of those moron. i can think of 8 off the top of my head. so 4 or 5 is laughable. i bet i could find 20 of those in a couple hours going over play by plays.

lebron has:

hornets
warriors
2 against wizards
magic
portland
2 against pistons
nets
hawks
heat

so lets see. that is 11 off the top of my head.

LOL....****ing owned again.

keep making shit up dude.

its hilarious.

Come on lets roll with this.
Lets test it out. What season was this?:no:

[ginobli2311]

I can't believe this troll is using STATS to justify clutch play.

Clutch plays are not defined by stats. They are defined by pure context and are situational every single time. To try and use stats to say one guy is more clutch than another is not only illogical, but it is very stupid.

Both are great players in the clutch, and :lol lol at you thinking lebron is better because of stats... wow he has game winners over the washington wizards and the over-thehill-pistons! OMG! But of course all gamewinners are the same to you statboy. Please troll somewhere else.

of course it not just stats. but the stats validate what my eyes see. for example kobe shooting 25% in the 4th qtr in the finals this year. he was shot jacking and turning the ball over a lot. how is that good?

that is my point. i watch these games and think that kobe forces way too much late in games. that he refuses to pass way too much and that while he does make a lot of clutch shots.....he misses a lot as well.

so i turn to stats to see if i'm right.....and what do you know? the stats validate everything i see with my eyes. no doubt kobe is great at times in the clutch. but he hasn't been very good in the clutch in the playoffs over the last few years and he refuses to play team ball and trust his teammates in game winning situations.

its not that kobe is terrible or something.....i just think lebron is better. i see it with my eyes and the stats back me up.

you have nothing on your side at all. that is the funny thing. all you have is media speak and agenda. if kobe was better.....i'd have no problem giving it to him....but he just isn't. plain and simple.

again.....when was kobe's last game winner in the playoffs? was it really 06? how many game winners in a row has kobe missed in the playoffs? my count is over ten.....i'd love to see the exact numbers.

[TheLogo]

no he doesn't. he has at least 20 of those moron. i can think of 8 off the top of my head. so 4 or 5 is laughable. i bet i could find 20 of those in a couple hours going over play by plays.

lebron has:

hornets
warriors
2 against wizards
magic
portland
2 against pistons
nets
hawks
heat

so lets see. that is 11 off the top of my head.

LOL....****ing owned again.

keep making shit up dude.

its hilarious.

ISH= where making up crap happens.

[ginobli2311]

Come on lets roll with this.
Lets test it out. What season was this?:no:

that is for his career that i can remember.

i don't know which season they are all in.

he had 2 vs the pistons in the playoffs. 2 vs the wizards in the playoffs. 1 vs the magic in the playoffs. 1 vs the hawks in the playoffs. 1 vs the heat this year or last year. 1 vs the nets in his rookie year i think. golden state last year in the regular season. i don't remember when the hornets and blazers were but i know they are on youtube.

[TheLogo]

again.....when was kobe's last game winner in the playoffs? was it really 06? how many game winners in a row has kobe missed in the playoffs? my count is over ten.....i'd love to see the exact numbers.

Don't blame Kobe for not having the opportunity to hit a game winner because his last was in '06.

[Simple Jack]

www.dolem.com/kobe

All sourced out with the situation.

I need sources and situations for Lebron's...till I see some proof I will hold back on saying Lebron is more clutch than Kobe.

Let's not forget that Lebron turns the ball over in the clutch too.

But conveniently forget that Kobe takes exponentially more game winning shots than anyone else in the league.

[Simple Jack]

Don't blame Kobe for not having the opportunity to hit a game winner because his last was in '06.

Kobe had 2 chances this year :facepalm

[Bladers]

See ginobli, and simplejack.
I went out of my way to get the facts to help you out and yet people call me a troll and a hater.
:facepalm

All I have been trying to do is be fair and balanced here.


LEBRON JAMES
Current Total = 12
Buzzer Beaters = 2
Game Winning Field Goals = 9
Game Winning 3-Pointers = 1
Game Winning Free Throws = 3

Mar. 22, 2006: Cavaliers 120 - Bobcats 118 (jumper over Jumaine Jones w/ 0.9 secs)

April 10, 2006: Cavaliers 103 - Hornets 101 (jumper over Desmond Mason w/ 0.5 secs)

April 28, 2006: Cavaliers 97 - Wizards 96 (PO, bank-shot over Mike Ruffin w/ 5 secs)

May 03, 2006: Cavaliers 121 - Wizards 120 (PO, layup w/ 0.9 secs)

May 31, 2007: Cavaliers 109 - Pistons 107 (PO, layup w/ 2.2 secs)

Jan. 17, 2008: Cavaliers 90 - Spurs 88 (layup w/ 33.6 secs)

Jan. 30, 2008: Cavaliers 84 - TrailBlazers 83 (layup w/ 0.9 secs)

Feb. 22, 2008: Cavaliers 90 - Wizards 89 (game-winning FTs w/ 7.8 secs)

Jan. 23, 2009: Cavaliers 106 - Warriors 105 (buzzer-beater, jumper over Ronnie Turiaf)

Mar. 01, 2009: Cavaliers 88 - Hawks 87 (game-winning FT w/ 1.6 secs)

May 22, 2009: Cavaliers 96 - Magic 95 (PO buzzer-beater, 3-pointer over Hedo Turkolgu)

Jan. 25, 2010: Cavaliers 92 - Heat 91 (game-winning FT w/ 4.1 secs)

[tpols]

See ginobli, and simplejack.
I went out of my way to get the facts to help you out and yet people call me a troll and a hater.
:facepalm


LEBRON JAMES
Current Total = 12
Buzzer Beaters = 2
Game Winning Field Goals = 9
Game Winning 3-Pointers = 1
Game Winning Free Throws = 3

Mar. 22, 2006: Cavaliers 120 - Bobcats 118 (jumper over Jumaine Jones w/ 0.9 secs)

April 10, 2006: Cavaliers 103 - Hornets 101 (jumper over Desmond Mason w/ 0.5 secs)

April 28, 2006: Cavaliers 97 - Wizards 96 (PO, bank-shot over Mike Ruffin w/ 5 secs)

May 03, 2006: Cavaliers 121 - Wizards 120 (PO, layup w/ 0.9 secs)

May 31, 2007: Cavaliers 109 - Pistons 107 (PO, layup w/ 2.2 secs)

Jan. 17, 2008: Cavaliers 90 - Spurs 88 (layup w/ 33.6 secs)

Jan. 30, 2008: Cavaliers 84 - TrailBlazers 83 (layup w/ 0.9 secs)

Feb. 22, 2008: Cavaliers 90 - Wizards 89 (game-winning FTs w/ 7.8 secs)

Jan. 23, 2009: Cavaliers 106 - Warriors 105 (buzzer-beater, jumper over Ronnie Turiaf)

Mar. 01, 2009: Cavaliers 88 - Hawks 87 (game-winning FT w/ 1.6 secs)

May 22, 2009: Cavaliers 96 - Magic 95 (PO buzzer-beater, 3-pointer over Hedo Turkolgu)

Jan. 25, 2010: Cavaliers 92 - Heat 91 (game-winning FT w/ 4.1 secs)
nice work man. This means lebron isn't even on pace to eclipse kobe's current game-winners count. So much for 20+ ginobli; the agenda's been uncovered and the facts have been distributed. Good day.

[ginobli2311]

ISH= where making up crap happens.

1. blazers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4N1G3gYk7w

2. magic...no need to post video

3/4. wizards..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqpF1COUzoU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd0lqbXVRyQ

5. hornets
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3Bl2MvTsHs&feature=related

6. nets
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAkTwOHg_XU&feature=related

7. lakers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_L9RwQ1jiU&feature=related

8. warriors
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OEl8uZ3N50&feature=fvw

9. pistons
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZfoCUCa6CU

10. hawks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhoZvzljI-I

11. heat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUxYjWEYMts&feature=related

can't find the other pistons game winner but i watched it happen. so that brings us to 12 that i can think off the top of my head.

anyone else want to be owned?

[ginobli2311]

nice work man. This means lebron isn't even on pace to eclipse kobe's current game-winners count. So much for 20+ ginobli; the agenda's been uncovered and the facts have been distributed. Good day.

are you retarded? bladers has been saying that lebron only has 4 or 5....now he has at least 12. LOL

and again.....if you put the same criteria that bladers has used for kobe.....you would get even more.

and again....that definition is flat out retarded because its dependent on being the last shot made....which is beyond idiotic.

but forget all of that. lebron has more playoff game winners over the last 5 years than kobe. plain and simple. lebron makes a higher percentage and also has at least 5 times as many game winning assists. LOL

[Bladers]

1. blazers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4N1G3gYk7w

2. magic...no need to post video

3/4. wizards..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqpF1COUzoU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd0lqbXVRyQ

5. hornets
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3Bl2MvTsHs&feature=related

6. nets
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAkTwOHg_XU&feature=related

7. lakers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_L9RwQ1jiU&feature=related

8. warriors
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OEl8uZ3N50&feature=fvw

9. pistons
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZfoCUCa6CU

10. hawks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhoZvzljI-I

11. heat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUxYjWEYMts&feature=related

can't find the other pistons game winner but i watched it happen. so that brings us to 12 that i can think off the top of my head.

anyone else want to be owned?

Nets and Lakers were not Game winners FOOL
Lebron scored twice in the nets game.
In the Lakers game, Cavs were already up.


are you retarded? bladers has been saying that lebron only has 4 or 5....now he has at least 12. LOL

and again.....if you put the same criteria that bladers has used for kobe.....you would get even more.

and again....that definition is flat out retarded because its dependent on being the last shot made....which is beyond idiotic.

but forget all of that. lebron has more playoff game winners over the last 5 years than kobe. plain and simple. lebron makes a higher percentage and also has at least 5 times as many game winning assists. LOL

I did use THE OFFICIAL criteria fool and this is the result.


LEBRON JAMES
Current Total = 12
Buzzer Beaters = 2
Game Winning Field Goals = 9
Game Winning 3-Pointers = 1
Game Winning Free Throws = 3

Mar. 22, 2006: Cavaliers 120 - Bobcats 118 (jumper over Jumaine Jones w/ 0.9 secs)

April 10, 2006: Cavaliers 103 - Hornets 101 (jumper over Desmond Mason w/ 0.5 secs)

April 28, 2006: Cavaliers 97 - Wizards 96 (PO, bank-shot over Mike Ruffin w/ 5 secs)

May 03, 2006: Cavaliers 121 - Wizards 120 (PO, layup w/ 0.9 secs)

May 31, 2007: Cavaliers 109 - Pistons 107 (PO, layup w/ 2.2 secs)

Jan. 17, 2008: Cavaliers 90 - Spurs 88 (layup w/ 33.6 secs)

Jan. 30, 2008: Cavaliers 84 - TrailBlazers 83 (layup w/ 0.9 secs)

Feb. 22, 2008: Cavaliers 90 - Wizards 89 (game-winning FTs w/ 7.8 secs)

Jan. 23, 2009: Cavaliers 106 - Warriors 105 (buzzer-beater, jumper over Ronnie Turiaf)

Mar. 01, 2009: Cavaliers 88 - Hawks 87 (game-winning FT w/ 1.6 secs)

May 22, 2009: Cavaliers 96 - Magic 95 (PO buzzer-beater, 3-pointer over Hedo Turkolgu)

Jan. 25, 2010: Cavaliers 92 - Heat 91 (game-winning FT w/ 4.1 secs)[/QUOTE]

LEBRON ONLY HAS 12.
KOBE HAS 31.

31 > 12

[ginobli2311]

Nets and Lakers were not Game winners FOOL
Lebron scored twice in the nets game.
In the Lakers game, Cavs were already up.



I did use THE OFFICIAL criteria fool and this is the result.


LEBRON JAMES
Current Total = 12
Buzzer Beaters = 2
Game Winning Field Goals = 9
Game Winning 3-Pointers = 1
Game Winning Free Throws = 3

Mar. 22, 2006: Cavaliers 120 - Bobcats 118 (jumper over Jumaine Jones w/ 0.9 secs)

April 10, 2006: Cavaliers 103 - Hornets 101 (jumper over Desmond Mason w/ 0.5 secs)

April 28, 2006: Cavaliers 97 - Wizards 96 (PO, bank-shot over Mike Ruffin w/ 5 secs)

May 03, 2006: Cavaliers 121 - Wizards 120 (PO, layup w/ 0.9 secs)

May 31, 2007: Cavaliers 109 - Pistons 107 (PO, layup w/ 2.2 secs)

Jan. 17, 2008: Cavaliers 90 - Spurs 88 (layup w/ 33.6 secs)

Jan. 30, 2008: Cavaliers 84 - TrailBlazers 83 (layup w/ 0.9 secs)

Feb. 22, 2008: Cavaliers 90 - Wizards 89 (game-winning FTs w/ 7.8 secs)

Jan. 23, 2009: Cavaliers 106 - Warriors 105 (buzzer-beater, jumper over Ronnie Turiaf)

Mar. 01, 2009: Cavaliers 88 - Hawks 87 (game-winning FT w/ 1.6 secs)

May 22, 2009: Cavaliers 96 - Magic 95 (PO buzzer-beater, 3-pointer over Hedo Turkolgu)

Jan. 25, 2010: Cavaliers 92 - Heat 91 (game-winning FT w/ 4.1 secs)[/QUOTE]

dude. you have been saying that lebron has 4 or 5 game winners all day. now you say he has 12.....and your official criteria is retarded compared to the 82games.com criteria.

how can you not see this. lebron making a jumper in kobe's face with 20 seconds left to put his team up 3 instead of 1 is just as important. just like lebron making a shot against the pistons to put his team up 4 instead of 2 with 12 seconds left is huge.

those are just as important as kobe making a shot with 29 seconds left to put his team up 2. that is why your "official criteria" is so flawed. i want a larger sample size....yours if far too limited.

but again....even using your limited criteria....lebron has 3 times as many game winners as you said just 15 minutes ago. so please admit you were dead wrong.

oh and......stop comparing kobe to lebron in terms of total numbers. kobe has played 7 more years and even more considering he has played on so many great teams that have played a ton more playoff games.

[tpols]

Ginobli this is for you. These are FACTS.

Lebron James Game Winners

Mar. 22, 2006: Cavaliers 120 - Bobcats 118 (jumper over Jumaine Jones w/ 0.9 secs)

April 10, 2006: Cavaliers 103 - Hornets 101 (jumper over Desmond Mason w/ 0.5 secs)

April 28, 2006: Cavaliers 97 - Wizards 96 (PO, bank-shot over Mike Ruffin w/ 5 secs)

May 03, 2006: Cavaliers 121 - Wizards 120 (PO, layup w/ 0.9 secs)

May 31, 2007: Cavaliers 109 - Pistons 107 (PO, layup w/ 2.2 secs)

Jan. 17, 2008: Cavaliers 90 - Spurs 88 (layup w/ 33.6 secs)

Jan. 30, 2008: Cavaliers 84 - TrailBlazers 83 (layup w/ 0.9 secs)

Feb. 22, 2008: Cavaliers 90 - Wizards 89 (game-winning FTs w/ 7.8 secs)

Jan. 23, 2009: Cavaliers 106 - Warriors 105 (buzzer-beater, jumper over Ronnie Turiaf)

Mar. 01, 2009: Cavaliers 88 - Hawks 87 (game-winning FT w/ 1.6 secs)

May 22, 2009: Cavaliers 96 - Magic 95 (PO buzzer-beater, 3-pointer over Hedo Turkolgu)

Jan. 25, 2010: Cavaliers 92 - Heat 91 (game-winning FT w/ 4.1 secs)

12 TOTAL


Kobe Bryant Game Winners
1) 05/09/99 - Lakers 101, Rockets 100 (playoffs, game-winning FTs with 5.3 seconds remaining)
2) 12/27/99 - Lakers 108, Mavericks 106 (game-winning FTs)
3) 05/10/00 - Lakers 97, Phoenix 96 (playoffs, jumper over Jason Kidd)
4) 11/16/00 - Lakers 112, Kings 110 (game-tying three for OT, OT jumper for win)
5) 02/07/01 - Lakers 85, Phoenix 83 (jumper with 2.7 seconds remaining)
6) 02/13/01 - Lakers 113, Nets 110 (OT game-winning layup with the And-1)
7) 01/02/02 - Lakers 87, Nuggets 86 (offensive reb and jumper)
8) 02/22/02 - Lakers 96, Hornets 94 (first career buzzer-beater, jumper)
9) 03/24/02 - Lakers 97, Kings 96 (fade-away jumper, 2.6 seconds remaining)
10) 05/12/02 - Lakers 87, Spurs 85 (playoffs, offensive rebound and put-back)
11) 12/06/02 - Lakers 105, Mavericks 103 (28-point game comeback, spin-around jumper)
12) 04/04/03 - Lakers 102, Grizzlies 101 (buzzer-beater, jumper)
13) 04/06/03 - Lakers 115, Suns 113 (GW jumper with 28.6 seconds remaining)
14) 12/19/03 - Lakers 101, Nuggets 99 (game after the trial, buzzer-beating fade-away)
15) 02/17/04 - Lakers 89, Blazers 86 (layup and the foul)
16) 03/21/04 - Lakers 104, Bucks 103 (OT jumper with 25 seconds remaining)
17) 04/14/04 - Lakers 105, Blazers 104 (game-tying three for OT, OT GW buzzer-beating three)
18) 03/13/05 - Lakers 117, Bobcats 116 (pump fake jumper for the win)
19) 11/02/05 - Lakers 99, Nuggets 97 (OT jumper after the Kwame brick)
20) 12/04/05 - Lakers 99, Bobcats 98 (game-winning FTs)
21) 01/12/06 - Lakers 99, Cavaliers 98 (jumper against Lebron with 8 seconds to go)
22) 04/30/06 - Lakers 99, Suns 98 (playoffs, game-tying tear drop for OT, and OT game-winning jumper)
23) 01/14/08 - Lakers 123, Sonics 121 (OT game-winning jumper)
24) 01/09/09 - Lakers 121, Pacers 119 (jumper against Jarrett Jack with 3 seconds to go)
25) 12/04/09 - Lakers 108, Heat 107 (game-winning buzzer-beating three over Wade)
26) 12/16/09 - Lakers 107, Bucks 106 (game-winning buzzer-beating jumper over Bell)
27) 01/01/10 - Lakers 109, Kings 108 (game-winning buzzer-beating three, 4.1 seconds left and 0.1 remaining)
28) 01/13/10 - Lakers 100, Mavericks 95 (game-winning jumper with 28.9 seconds remaining)
29) 01/31/10 - Lakers 90, Celtics 89 (game-winning jumper with 7 secs remaining)
30) 02/23/10 - Lakers 99, Grizzlies 98 (game-winning jumper with 4.3 seconds remaining)
31) 03/10/10 - Lakers 109, Raptors 107 (game-winning fade-away with 1.9 seconds remaining)

31 TOTAL

Lebron James has played half the seasons of kobe so he would be expected to hit 24 by his 14th season. He's NOT EVEN ON PACE.

These are facts. No bias. Pure facts.

You've been owned. Please leave.

[tpols]

dude. you have been saying that lebron has 4 or 5 game winners all day. now you say he has 12.....and your official criteria is retarded compared to the 82games.com criteria.

how can you not see this. lebron making a jumper in kobe's face with 20 seconds left to put his team up 3 instead of 1 is just as important. just like lebron making a shot against the pistons to put his team up 4 instead of 2 with 12 seconds left is huge.

those are just as important as kobe making a shot with 29 seconds left to put his team up 2. that is why your "official criteria" is so flawed. i want a larger sample size....yours if far too limited.

but again....even using your limited criteria....lebron has 3 times as many game winners as you said just 15 minutes ago. so please admit you were dead wrong.

oh and......stop comparing kobe to lebron in terms of total numbers. kobe has played 7 more years and even more considering he has played on so many great teams that have played a ton more playoff games.
you ****ing retard. THOSE ARE NOT GAME WINNING SHOTS. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT GAME WINNING SHOTS.

If you want to talk about other clutch shots make a thread for it and GTFO.:facepalm

[Bladers]

Ginobli this is for you. These are FACTS.

Lebron James Game Winners

Mar. 22, 2006: Cavaliers 120 - Bobcats 118 (jumper over Jumaine Jones w/ 0.9 secs)

April 10, 2006: Cavaliers 103 - Hornets 101 (jumper over Desmond Mason w/ 0.5 secs)

April 28, 2006: Cavaliers 97 - Wizards 96 (PO, bank-shot over Mike Ruffin w/ 5 secs)

May 03, 2006: Cavaliers 121 - Wizards 120 (PO, layup w/ 0.9 secs)

May 31, 2007: Cavaliers 109 - Pistons 107 (PO, layup w/ 2.2 secs)

Jan. 17, 2008: Cavaliers 90 - Spurs 88 (layup w/ 33.6 secs)

Jan. 30, 2008: Cavaliers 84 - TrailBlazers 83 (layup w/ 0.9 secs)

Feb. 22, 2008: Cavaliers 90 - Wizards 89 (game-winning FTs w/ 7.8 secs)

Jan. 23, 2009: Cavaliers 106 - Warriors 105 (buzzer-beater, jumper over Ronnie Turiaf)

Mar. 01, 2009: Cavaliers 88 - Hawks 87 (game-winning FT w/ 1.6 secs)

May 22, 2009: Cavaliers 96 - Magic 95 (PO buzzer-beater, 3-pointer over Hedo Turkolgu)

Jan. 25, 2010: Cavaliers 92 - Heat 91 (game-winning FT w/ 4.1 secs)

12 TOTAL


Kobe Bryant Game Winners
1) 05/09/99 - Lakers 101, Rockets 100 (playoffs, game-winning FTs with 5.3 seconds remaining)
2) 12/27/99 - Lakers 108, Mavericks 106 (game-winning FTs)
3) 05/10/00 - Lakers 97, Phoenix 96 (playoffs, jumper over Jason Kidd)
4) 11/16/00 - Lakers 112, Kings 110 (game-tying three for OT, OT jumper for win)
5) 02/07/01 - Lakers 85, Phoenix 83 (jumper with 2.7 seconds remaining)
6) 02/13/01 - Lakers 113, Nets 110 (OT game-winning layup with the And-1)
7) 01/02/02 - Lakers 87, Nuggets 86 (offensive reb and jumper)
8) 02/22/02 - Lakers 96, Hornets 94 (first career buzzer-beater, jumper)
9) 03/24/02 - Lakers 97, Kings 96 (fade-away jumper, 2.6 seconds remaining)
10) 05/12/02 - Lakers 87, Spurs 85 (playoffs, offensive rebound and put-back)
11) 12/06/02 - Lakers 105, Mavericks 103 (28-point game comeback, spin-around jumper)
12) 04/04/03 - Lakers 102, Grizzlies 101 (buzzer-beater, jumper)
13) 04/06/03 - Lakers 115, Suns 113 (GW jumper with 28.6 seconds remaining)
14) 12/19/03 - Lakers 101, Nuggets 99 (game after the trial, buzzer-beating fade-away)
15) 02/17/04 - Lakers 89, Blazers 86 (layup and the foul)
16) 03/21/04 - Lakers 104, Bucks 103 (OT jumper with 25 seconds remaining)
17) 04/14/04 - Lakers 105, Blazers 104 (game-tying three for OT, OT GW buzzer-beating three)
18) 03/13/05 - Lakers 117, Bobcats 116 (pump fake jumper for the win)
19) 11/02/05 - Lakers 99, Nuggets 97 (OT jumper after the Kwame brick)
20) 12/04/05 - Lakers 99, Bobcats 98 (game-winning FTs)
21) 01/12/06 - Lakers 99, Cavaliers 98 (jumper against Lebron with 8 seconds to go)
22) 04/30/06 - Lakers 99, Suns 98 (playoffs, game-tying tear drop for OT, and OT game-winning jumper)
23) 01/14/08 - Lakers 123, Sonics 121 (OT game-winning jumper)
24) 01/09/09 - Lakers 121, Pacers 119 (jumper against Jarrett Jack with 3 seconds to go)
25) 12/04/09 - Lakers 108, Heat 107 (game-winning buzzer-beating three over Wade)
26) 12/16/09 - Lakers 107, Bucks 106 (game-winning buzzer-beating jumper over Bell)
27) 01/01/10 - Lakers 109, Kings 108 (game-winning buzzer-beating three, 4.1 seconds left and 0.1 remaining)
28) 01/13/10 - Lakers 100, Mavericks 95 (game-winning jumper with 28.9 seconds remaining)
29) 01/31/10 - Lakers 90, Celtics 89 (game-winning jumper with 7 secs remaining)
30) 02/23/10 - Lakers 99, Grizzlies 98 (game-winning jumper with 4.3 seconds remaining)
31) 03/10/10 - Lakers 109, Raptors 107 (game-winning fade-away with 1.9 seconds remaining)

31 TOTAL

Lebron James has played half the seasons of kobe so he would be expected to hit 24 by his 14th season. He's NOT EVEN ON PACE.

These are facts. No bias. Pure facts.

You've been owned. Please leave.

This, I'm leaving.
I already posted the facts, not from my criteria. But from the OFFICIAL GAME WINNING SHOTS CRITERIA!

[Bladers]

you ****ing retard. THOSE ARE NOT GAME WINNING SHOTS. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT GAME WINNING SHOTS.

If you want to talk about other clutch shots make a thread for it and GTFO.:facepalm

This again, I wish I can double rep yoou.
:cheers:

The title is "game winners"

Shots that WIN you the GAME!

How hard is it to understand. If you want to talk about other clutch shots, then GTFO and make your own thread. But don't come in here with this BS.

[TheLogo]

that ginobli is a troll.

he is arguing just to argue.

[ginobli2311]

Ginobli this is for you. These are FACTS.

Lebron James Game Winners

Mar. 22, 2006: Cavaliers 120 - Bobcats 118 (jumper over Jumaine Jones w/ 0.9 secs)

April 10, 2006: Cavaliers 103 - Hornets 101 (jumper over Desmond Mason w/ 0.5 secs)

April 28, 2006: Cavaliers 97 - Wizards 96 (PO, bank-shot over Mike Ruffin w/ 5 secs)

May 03, 2006: Cavaliers 121 - Wizards 120 (PO, layup w/ 0.9 secs)

May 31, 2007: Cavaliers 109 - Pistons 107 (PO, layup w/ 2.2 secs)

Jan. 17, 2008: Cavaliers 90 - Spurs 88 (layup w/ 33.6 secs)

Jan. 30, 2008: Cavaliers 84 - TrailBlazers 83 (layup w/ 0.9 secs)

Feb. 22, 2008: Cavaliers 90 - Wizards 89 (game-winning FTs w/ 7.8 secs)

Jan. 23, 2009: Cavaliers 106 - Warriors 105 (buzzer-beater, jumper over Ronnie Turiaf)

Mar. 01, 2009: Cavaliers 88 - Hawks 87 (game-winning FT w/ 1.6 secs)

May 22, 2009: Cavaliers 96 - Magic 95 (PO buzzer-beater, 3-pointer over Hedo Turkolgu)

Jan. 25, 2010: Cavaliers 92 - Heat 91 (game-winning FT w/ 4.1 secs)

12 TOTAL


Kobe Bryant Game Winners
1) 05/09/99 - Lakers 101, Rockets 100 (playoffs, game-winning FTs with 5.3 seconds remaining)
2) 12/27/99 - Lakers 108, Mavericks 106 (game-winning FTs)
3) 05/10/00 - Lakers 97, Phoenix 96 (playoffs, jumper over Jason Kidd)
4) 11/16/00 - Lakers 112, Kings 110 (game-tying three for OT, OT jumper for win)
5) 02/07/01 - Lakers 85, Phoenix 83 (jumper with 2.7 seconds remaining)
6) 02/13/01 - Lakers 113, Nets 110 (OT game-winning layup with the And-1)
7) 01/02/02 - Lakers 87, Nuggets 86 (offensive reb and jumper)
8) 02/22/02 - Lakers 96, Hornets 94 (first career buzzer-beater, jumper)
9) 03/24/02 - Lakers 97, Kings 96 (fade-away jumper, 2.6 seconds remaining)
10) 05/12/02 - Lakers 87, Spurs 85 (playoffs, offensive rebound and put-back)
11) 12/06/02 - Lakers 105, Mavericks 103 (28-point game comeback, spin-around jumper)
12) 04/04/03 - Lakers 102, Grizzlies 101 (buzzer-beater, jumper)
13) 04/06/03 - Lakers 115, Suns 113 (GW jumper with 28.6 seconds remaining)
14) 12/19/03 - Lakers 101, Nuggets 99 (game after the trial, buzzer-beating fade-away)
15) 02/17/04 - Lakers 89, Blazers 86 (layup and the foul)
16) 03/21/04 - Lakers 104, Bucks 103 (OT jumper with 25 seconds remaining)
17) 04/14/04 - Lakers 105, Blazers 104 (game-tying three for OT, OT GW buzzer-beating three)
18) 03/13/05 - Lakers 117, Bobcats 116 (pump fake jumper for the win)
19) 11/02/05 - Lakers 99, Nuggets 97 (OT jumper after the Kwame brick)
20) 12/04/05 - Lakers 99, Bobcats 98 (game-winning FTs)
21) 01/12/06 - Lakers 99, Cavaliers 98 (jumper against Lebron with 8 seconds to go)
22) 04/30/06 - Lakers 99, Suns 98 (playoffs, game-tying tear drop for OT, and OT game-winning jumper)
23) 01/14/08 - Lakers 123, Sonics 121 (OT game-winning jumper)
24) 01/09/09 - Lakers 121, Pacers 119 (jumper against Jarrett Jack with 3 seconds to go)
25) 12/04/09 - Lakers 108, Heat 107 (game-winning buzzer-beating three over Wade)
26) 12/16/09 - Lakers 107, Bucks 106 (game-winning buzzer-beating jumper over Bell)
27) 01/01/10 - Lakers 109, Kings 108 (game-winning buzzer-beating three, 4.1 seconds left and 0.1 remaining)
28) 01/13/10 - Lakers 100, Mavericks 95 (game-winning jumper with 28.9 seconds remaining)
29) 01/31/10 - Lakers 90, Celtics 89 (game-winning jumper with 7 secs remaining)
30) 02/23/10 - Lakers 99, Grizzlies 98 (game-winning jumper with 4.3 seconds remaining)
31) 03/10/10 - Lakers 109, Raptors 107 (game-winning fade-away with 1.9 seconds remaining)

31 TOTAL

Lebron James has played half the seasons of kobe so he would be expected to hit 24 by his 14th season. He's NOT EVEN ON PACE.

These are facts. No bias. Pure facts.

You've been owned. Please leave.

haahahahahahaha

moron. what if lebron has a season in which he has 7 game winners like kobe did this year?

are you that dense about statistical anomalies? do you realize that lebron is now entering the prime of his career for the next 7 years and will most likely have a ton of chances to win games in the playoffs?

if lebron has one year in which he makes 5.....he would be right on pace with kobe.

my god you people are just flat out retarded. you know nothing about a statistical analysis.

and again......your criteria is extremely limited and flawed and far too circumstantial.

but even if we go by your definition....going into this year.....lebron was actually ahead of kobe's pace. so again.....you can't really draw any conclusions yet for a number of reasons.

and again.....lebron has more playoff game winners over the last 5 years than kobe has had.....give me the guy that makes them in the playoffs....not the guy that makes them in the regular season.

LOL....all the way back to 06 for kobe's last game winner in the playoffs. LOL....."best closer in the game"....LOL....missing his last 10 plus.....0% over 4 years. damn thats solid.

quick lesson:

going into last season: (using the limited criteria)

lebron had 11 game winners in 6 years.

kobe had 24 games winners in 13 years.

do you see how flawed your thinking about pace is? please don't make me explain simply statistical analysis and anomalies to you. LOL. you people are so dumb its hilarious.

[Simple Jack]

See ginobli, and simplejack.
I went out of my way to get the facts to help you out and yet people call me a troll and a hater.
:facepalm

All I have been trying to do is be fair and balanced here.


LEBRON JAMES
Current Total = 12
Buzzer Beaters = 2
Game Winning Field Goals = 9
Game Winning 3-Pointers = 1
Game Winning Free Throws = 3

Mar. 22, 2006: Cavaliers 120 - Bobcats 118 (jumper over Jumaine Jones w/ 0.9 secs)

April 10, 2006: Cavaliers 103 - Hornets 101 (jumper over Desmond Mason w/ 0.5 secs)

April 28, 2006: Cavaliers 97 - Wizards 96 (PO, bank-shot over Mike Ruffin w/ 5 secs)

May 03, 2006: Cavaliers 121 - Wizards 120 (PO, layup w/ 0.9 secs)

May 31, 2007: Cavaliers 109 - Pistons 107 (PO, layup w/ 2.2 secs)

Jan. 17, 2008: Cavaliers 90 - Spurs 88 (layup w/ 33.6 secs)

Jan. 30, 2008: Cavaliers 84 - TrailBlazers 83 (layup w/ 0.9 secs)

Feb. 22, 2008: Cavaliers 90 - Wizards 89 (game-winning FTs w/ 7.8 secs)

Jan. 23, 2009: Cavaliers 106 - Warriors 105 (buzzer-beater, jumper over Ronnie Turiaf)

Mar. 01, 2009: Cavaliers 88 - Hawks 87 (game-winning FT w/ 1.6 secs)

May 22, 2009: Cavaliers 96 - Magic 95 (PO buzzer-beater, 3-pointer over Hedo Turkolgu)

Jan. 25, 2010: Cavaliers 92 - Heat 91 (game-winning FT w/ 4.1 secs)

Didn't you say in about 4 previous posts that LeBron only had 4 or 5?

You went out of your way by checking a thread that just got bumped to the first page?

[tpols]

haahahahahahaha

moron. what if lebron has a season in which he has 7 game winners like kobe did this year?

are you that dense about statistical anomalies? do you realize that lebron is now entering the prime of his career for the next 7 years and will most likely have a ton of chances to win games in the playoffs?

if lebron has one year in which he makes 5.....he would be right on pace with kobe.

my god you people are just flat out retarded. you know nothing about a statistical analysis.

and again......your criteria is extremely limited and flawed and far too circumstantial.

but even if we go by your definition....going into this year.....lebron was actually ahead of kobe's pace. so again.....you can't really draw any conclusions yet for a number of reasons.

and again.....lebron has more playoff game winners over the last 5 years than kobe has had.....give me the guy that makes them in the playoffs....not the guy that makes them in the regular season.

LOL....all the way back to 06 for kobe's last game winner in the playoffs. LOL....."best closer in the game"....LOL....missing his last 10 plus.....0% over 4 years. damn thats solid.

quick lesson:

going into last season: (using the limited criteria)

lebron had 11 game winners in 6 years.

kobe had 24 games winners in 13 years.

do you see how flawed your thinking about pace is? please don't make me explain simply statistical analysis and anomalies to you. LOL. you people are so dumb its hilarious.
Now its an anomaly... jesus christ man stfu. you lost.:facepalm

Now stop embarrassing yourself and leave.

[Bladers]

Didn't you say in about 4 previous posts that LeBron only had 4 or 5?

You went out of your way by checking a thread that just got bumped to the first page?

Yes I was wrong because 4 or 5 I could remember, the others I could not.
Atleast I admitted it, I was wrong cause I could only remember 4 or 5.

But no one wanted to provide facts, everyone wanted to make assumptions and run their mouths.

Ginobli, "Oh Lebron would have more than 30..."
Ginobli, again said "He has 20+..."

So I went and got legit facts with sources to back it up.


But you don't see Ginobli saying he is wrong.
These are trolls that take pride in their trolling even when proven wrong.

[Simple Jack]

Yes I was wrong because 4 or 5 I could remember, the others I could not.
Atleast I admitted it, I was wrong cause I could only remember 4 or 5.

But no one wanted to provide facts, everyone wanted to make assumptions and run their mouths.

"Oh Lebron would have more than 30..."
Ginobli came and said "He has 20+..."

So I went and got legit facts with sources to back it up.

I never claimed he had 20+ on top of what was mentioned before, so no point in referencing me in your post. I just knew he clearly had more than 5 that you were so adamant on mentioning as if it were a universal fact.

[ginobli2311]

Now its an anomoly... jesus christ man stfu. you lost.:facepalm

Now stop embarrassing yourself and leave.

how is it not a statistical anomaly? its the very definition. for the previous 13 years kobe averaged slightly less than 2 game winners per year. he had 7 this year. that is the very definition of a statistical anomaly dude.

my god. STFU....you are fuktard moron. when a stat grows three times larger than its normal value its considered an anomaly. how do you not understand that?

so....my simple and factual point was that you can't go off a straight pace because the numbers are so small and an anomaly can change everything. for example....if you did this before last year....lebron would have been on a faster pace.

moron....do you understand that?

and this thread...or at least when i joined it....was debating the 82games.com definition. if we are going solely off the other criteria (which i think is far too limited)....then yes. kobe is is on a better pace. however....it is far too early to say which player is better using that criteria for the very reasons i just mentioned.

[tpols]

That's not even the point. No one is disputing that Kobe had more, but to cite more as an example of being more clutch is highly misleading. Ending with 31 > 12 is even more misleading.

Hypothetical:

Player A hits 25 game winners out of 30 FGA

Player B hits 30 out of 70 FGA.

Who do you take? Who is more clutch?

Citing 31 > 12 and acting as if you ended the conversation is childish and I wouldn't expect anything less from Bladers.
I never said kobe was more clutch than lebron. I just said he has more game winners and I would rather have him take the last shot than lebron after personally observing them both. I actually think lebron is better than kobe right now in terms of overall play because he is reaching his peak while kobe is on the decline (though he still plays great and is easily top 3 right now).

[ginobli2311]

Yes I was wrong because 4 or 5 I could remember, the others I could not.
Atleast I admitted it, I was wrong cause I could only remember 4 or 5.

But no one wanted to provide facts, everyone wanted to make assumptions and run their mouths.

"Oh Lebron would have more than 30..."
Ginobli came and said "He has 20+..."

So I went and got legit facts with sources to back it up.


But you don't see Ginobli saying he is wrong.
These are trolls that take pride in their trolling.

i was using a different definition. if you want to go by the definition you are using that is fine. i just disagree with it. but we can use it.

but the main flaws in your stat is that it does not show efficiency or assists and it is very limited and negates super clutch shots made with mere seconds left in the game.

from a statistical analysis viewpoint its extremely flawed for those reasons. we want more than volume in advanced stats. what if kobe has taken an absurdly larger number of shots than lebron? we simply don't know using your criteria.

how can you not see this?

[Bladers]

I never claimed he had 20+ on top of what was mentioned before, so no point in referencing me in your post. I just knew he clearly had more than 5 that you were so adamant on mentioning as if it were a universal fact.

I didn't say you, I'm talking about Ginobli.
But you see why you're considered a troll.
You argue just to argue, and you don't want to post facts and back it up.
Real facts not 82games rubbish.

Just like the MJ stuff, only one game was proven. The other 4 you haven't proven. I'm still waiting.

[ginobli2311]

Why is no one mentioning how many more attempts and misses Kobe has as well. That's probably the most important context for this conversation. (Not just for Kobe, but for LeBron as well).

totally agree. check my above post.

[amfirst]

how is it not a statistical anomaly? its the very definition. for the previous 13 years kobe averaged slightly less than 2 game winners per year. he had 7 this year. that is the very definition of a statistical anomaly dude.

my god. STFU....you are fuktard moron. when a stat grows three times larger than its normal value its considered an anomaly. how do you not understand that?

so....my simple and factual point was that you can't go off a straight pace because the numbers are so small and an anomaly can change everything. for example....if you did this before last year....lebron would have been on a faster pace.

moron....do you understand that?

and this thread...or at least when i joined it....was debating the 82games.com definition. if we are going solely off the other criteria (which i think is far too limited)....then yes. kobe is is on a better pace. however....it is far too early to say which player is better using that criteria for the very reasons i just mentioned.

Your a retard, your king will have even less game winners in the future because Wade will take the last shots until he retires.

[Simple Jack]

I never said kobe was more clutch than lebron. I just said he has more game winners and I would rather have him take the last shot than lebron after personally observing them both. I actually think lebron is better than kobe right now in terms of overall play because he is reaching his peak while kobe is on the decline (though he still plays great and is easily top 3 right now).

Fair enough. I was actually referring to Bladers post which you quoted in yours. Sorry for the mixup. I don't think anyone has denied that Kobe has more game winners than LeBron; it would make sense considering he not only takes a much larger volume of them, but he's been in the league 7 years longer.

[BFRESH44]

:oldlol: SimpleJack, why do you waste your time entertaining these 'characters'? You're being conned, man!

[Bladers]

i was using a different definition. if you want to go by the definition you are using that is fine. i just disagree with it. but we can use it.

but the main flaws in your stat is that it does not show efficiency or assists and it is very limited and negates super clutch shots made with mere seconds left in the game.

from a statistical analysis viewpoint its extremely flawed for those reasons. we want more than volume in advanced stats. what if kobe has taken an absurdly larger number of shots than lebron? we simply don't know using your criteria.

how can you not see this?

First of all, I like how you are coping out.
This isn't my criteria, this is NBA's Official criteria. This is how they define game winners, not me.

Second of all, We are not talking about how much clutch Kobe or Lebron are.
We are talking about Game Winners.

First admit you are wrong and make another thread.

PS: I can go through last season for Kobe and Lebron and show you their effiency of true game winners. Kobe I know missed only one in the season vs magic and 2 in the playoffs.

[ginobli2311]

I didn't say you, I'm talking about Ginobli.
But you see why you're considered a troll.
You argue just to argue, and you don't want to post facts and back it up.
Real facts not 82games rubbish.

Just like the MJ stuff, only one game was proven. The other 4 you haven't proven. I'm still waiting.

sorry dude. your criteria is not nearly as good as 82games.com. i don't care if its official or not or anything like that. you want wider statistical parameters than your criteria offers.

but that is beside the point. lebron has 3 times as many game winners as you claimed using the limited criteria.

and again....your criteria does not take efficiency into account at all. it also ignores assists and turnovers as well. so its solely a volume based stat.

it would be like me saying that iverson is better than kobe offensively.

26.7 ppg > 25.3 ppg

clearly iverson was the better offensive player.

see how dumb and limited that analysis is. yours is just as bad.

[Simple Jack]

:oldlol: SimpleJack, why do you waste your time entertaining these 'characters'? You're being conned, man!

:lol Bladers is the only person that consistently posts stuff that literally makes me shake my head in real life. I should probably start using the ignore list.

[tpols]

sorry dude. your criteria is not nearly as good as 82games.com. i don't care if its official or not or anything like that. you want wider statistical parameters than your criteria offers.

but that is beside the point. lebron has 3 times as many game winners as you claimed using the limited criteria.

and again....your criteria does not take efficiency into account at all. it also ignores assists and turnovers as well. so its solely a volume based stat.

it would be like me saying that iverson is better than kobe offensively.

26.7 ppg > 25.3 ppg

clearly iverson was the better offensive player.

see how dumb and limited that analysis is. yours is just as bad.
But you haven't provided any efficiency numbers either. You just keep assuming and provide no facts. 82 games says kobe has made 11 game winners since 2003 and everyone knows that is a blatant lie. Come up with some viable figures and people might take you seriously.

[Bladers]

:lol Bladers is the only person that consistently posts stuff that literally makes me shake my head in real life. I should probably start using the ignore list.

Really? I find that hard to believe.

[magnax1]

Probably has to do with the stupid criteria 82games uses for game winners. Lebron is not a clutch player, hasn't ever been.

[MasterDurant24]

I didn't say you, I'm talking about Ginobli.
But you see why you're considered a troll.
You argue just to argue, and you don't want to post facts and back it up.
Real facts not 82games rubbish.

Just like the MJ stuff, only one game was proven. The other 4 you haven't proven. I'm still waiting.
Will you stop calling other people a troll when you are known as one of the biggest trolls on this board? What the hell goes on in your head I don't even know...

[Poochymama]

I have read this entire thread, it's interesting seeing you guys argue back and forth for so long, basically what I've learned from all this arguing is that Lebron is the better player in the last 24 seconds over the past 7 years and Kobe is the better game winning shot maker over the last 7 years.

Is that a fair assessment?

[ginobli2311]

First of all, I like how you are coping out.
This isn't my criteria, this is NBA's Official criteria. This is how they define game winners, not me.

Second of all, We are not talking about how much clutch Kobe or Lebron are.
We are talking about Game Winners.

First admit you are wrong and make another thread.

dude. listen carefully. you just recently brought up the other criteria. i find it extremely limited and flawed. the entire thread was about the 82games.com criteria...which is much better.

however...its very simple. based on the one criteria kobe has made more game winners per game than lebron so far in their respective careers. that is a fact. i have no problem conceding that. but my problem with this is that lebron has ahead of kobe coming into this year.....so i think its a little crazy to make a judgement when so much can change just off one year.

now. the problem with the "official criteria" is mainly that we don't take efficiency into account. that is not a cop out at all. its a fact. just because a player shoots more does not make them better. kobe took 6 more shots than lebron in the 82games.com analysis. i would imagine that kobe has taken quite a few more attempted game winners than lebron has on average per year.

these are things we have to know.

if its just...who has made more game winners in their careers......which is not even a debate so i don't get that.....then its obviously kobe.

but if the debate is who is better in game winning situations....then the answer is not clearly kobe at all. in one definition kobe makes more (but we have no idea about efficiency). in one definition we know lebron makes more (and we have efficiency).

so you have proven nothing other than the fact that you were quoting a value of lebron that was 3 times less than than reality.

[Bladers]

I have read this entire thread, it's interesting seeing you guys argue back and forth for so long, basically what I've learned from all this arguing is that Lebron is the better player in the last 24 seconds over the past 7 years and Kobe is the better game winning shot maker over the last 7 years.

Is that a fair assessment?

NO because 82games stops at December of 2008 and uses troll criterias.

[ginobli2311]

But you haven't provided any efficiency numbers either. You just keep assuming and provide no facts. 82 games says kobe has made 11 game winners since 2003 and everyone knows that is a blatant lie. Come up with some viable figures and people might take you seriously.

wrong again.

82games gives kobe credit for 14 game winners between 03 and 09. the official list gives kobe credit for 14 game winners between 03 and 09.

what do you know....the exact same number. so at the very least....we they are somewhat similar. so i think its pretty fair to assume that efficiency is accurate as well.

now...the funny thing is that under the official criteria kobe will have even more shot attempts because they don't take time into account really. so at minimum kobe has made 14 game winners in that time frame on 56 shots.....but that number of attempts will go way up with the official critera. so kobe is even less efficient than the 82 games.com number.

so to repeat. both studies credit kobe with 14 game winners from 03 to 09. and the number of attempts could only go up with the official criteria.

[Replay32]

I have read this entire thread, it's interesting seeing you guys argue back and forth for so long, basically what I've learned from all this arguing is that Lebron is the better player in the last 24 seconds over the past 7 years and Kobe is the better game winning shot maker over the last 7 years.

Is that a fair assessment?


yes /Thread.

[gts]

NO because 82games stops at December of 2008 and uses troll criterias.what part of their criteria do you have a problem with?

[Bladers]

wrong again.

82games gives kobe credit for 14 game winners between 03 and 09. the official list gives kobe credit for 14 game winners between 03 and 09.

what do you know....the exact same number. so at the very least....we they are somewhat similar. so i think its pretty fair to assume that efficiency is accurate as well.

now...the funny thing is that under the official criteria kobe will have even more shot attempts because they don't take time into account really. so at minimum kobe has made 14 game winners in that time frame on 56 shots.....but that number of attempts will go way up with the official critera. so kobe is even less efficient than the 82 games.com number.

so to repeat. both studies credit kobe with 14 game winners from 03 to 09. and the number of attempts could only go up with the official criteria.

You are a fool and a tool...:facepalm
You still don't get it.

Official criteria = LAST SHOT!

GTFO troll

[The_Yearning]

LMAO LBJ Clutch? The word clutch should never ever be used in the same sentence as LBJ unless it includes "NOT CLUTCH" :roll:

[Bladers]

So far I'm not done, I hope the trolls are still here.

Lebron is currently in GW 1/5 in 09/10.

Celtics Vs Cavs - LeBron James misses 26-foot three point jumper (113-115, with 4 seconds left)

Nuggets vs Cavs - LeBron James misses three point jumper (106-106 at end of regulation)

Nugget vs Cavs -LeBron James misses 28-foot three point jumper (118-116 at end of OT)

Bobcats vs Cavs - LeBron James misses 24-foot three point jumper (91-88 at end of regulation)

[RazorBaLade]

it totally disagree. how can you not think that a game with 24 seconds or less with the game within 2 points either way is not more important than 5 minutes into a game?

its laughable. forget calling it game winners. just call it clutch play with 24 seconds or less left with either team up or down by 2. if that isn't the very definition of uber crunch time then i'm very confused.

so again....forget calling it game winners. its just a stat that measures how well a player plays in those conditions....and those conditions are very important and are a very good indicator of how "clutch" and "smart" a player is at the end of tight games.

for example....kobe only having one assists in 56 game winning shot attempts. it validates everything i've watched. kobe refuses to pass in those situations and that is why he has no assists and that is why he shoots 9% less than lebron. its pretty simple.

to get an assist the other guy has to freakin make it. lakers have bad shooters. whats so hard to understand. kobe passed on at least 3 gw's this season alone.

and yes that definition is cool, just worthless imo it isnt clutch unless thats the final end of the game and the team wins. look at this:

20 sec left, cavs down by 1. lebron makes jumper, +1 clutch. lebron fouls, they score, then lebron turns it over and cavs lose. hypothetically. Is that really a clutch 24 seconds by lebron? Yet he got 1 point. worthless stat. a real game winner is black and white, 82's definition seems to not be.

[RazorBaLade]

wrong again.

82games gives kobe credit for 14 game winners between 03 and 09. the official list gives kobe credit for 14 game winners between 03 and 09.

what do you know....the exact same number. so at the very least....we they are somewhat similar. so i think its pretty fair to assume that efficiency is accurate as well.

now...the funny thing is that under the official criteria kobe will have even more shot attempts because they don't take time into account really. so at minimum kobe has made 14 game winners in that time frame on 56 shots.....but that number of attempts will go way up with the official critera. so kobe is even less efficient than the 82 games.com number.

so to repeat. both studies credit kobe with 14 game winners from 03 to 09. and the number of attempts could only go up with the official criteria.

we both know kobe has made more than 14 gws in just the last 3 yrs alone

[Bladers]

Cavs vs Kings
LeBron James misses 22-foot jumper (104-104 atthe end of regulation)

Cavs vs Memphis
LeBron James misses 25-foot three pointer (100-100 with 1 secs left)

TWO MORE, LMAO!!!:roll: :roll: :roll:

1/7 (14%):applause:

The greatest clutch player in the league.
I'm not even done yet.

PS:WHERE ARE THE TROLLS? THEY WERE JUST HERE A MIN AGO TALKING ABOUT EFFICIENCY!!!

[Bladers]

ANOTHER ONE!

Cavs vs Memphis
LeBron James misses 30-foot three point jumper(109-111 at end of OT)

1/8 (12%)

Oh Bron Bron Bron, the greatest clutch player in the league.
BTW, Where are the trolls?

[Bladers]

NOT AGAIN.

Greatest clutch player in the world.

Bulls vs Cavs
LeBron James misses layup(86-85 at end of regulation)

1/9 (11%):eek:

[amfirst]

Cavs vs Kings
LeBron James misses 22-foot jumper (104-104 atthe end of regulation)

Cavs vs Memphis
LeBron James misses 25-foot three pointer (100-100 with 1 secs left)

TWO MORE, LMAO!!!:roll: :roll: :roll:

1/7 (14%):applause:

The greatest clutch player in the league.
I'm not even done yet.

PS:WHERE ARE THE TROLLS? THEY WERE JUST HERE A MIN AGO TALKING ABOUT EFFICIENCY!!!

lol go easy on them...:lol

[NBASTATMAN]

http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

According to this site. Does that seem surprisingly high to anyone else? Hasn't tracked the last season and a half either...


He hits alot of winners they are just not as spectacular looking as Kobe's game winners.. Kobe's game is just prettier and his fans are crazy about letting everyone know WHEN HE HITS A WINNER......


Plus Lebron was not good at hitting winners last year...

[Bladers]

He hits alot of winners they are just not as spectacular looking as Kobe's game winners.. Kobe's game is just prettier and his fans are crazy about letting everyone know WHEN HE HITS A WINNER......


Plus Lebron was not good at hitting winners last year...

He is not good at hitting game winners THIS year either.

1/9 (11%)

Pitiful if you ask me, but ofcourse the trolls ran away.
Isn't ironic, before the dirt was spilled, the Lebron trolls were running wild with their claims? Now its all silent.

The one he made was FTs over miami. He missed all the jumpers and even a layup, let's face it. When lebron is forced to shoot we observe that his jumper hasn't improved, nor is he clutch.
But 82games complements him well, but I now know why they refuse to update that part of their site.
:roll: :roll:

[PowerGlove]

:applause:

You are so dedicated. Why? I have no idea but keep compiling stats.

[Bladers]

:applause:

You are so dedicated. Why? I have no idea but keep compiling stats.

I owned all of you now you are going to downplay stats?
Isn't it ironic that an hour ago, stats were Lebron's bestfriend? Now its his worst enemy. Everyone was talking about efficiecy, now they are silent!:oldlol:

Typical of Lebron's fanboys, when you own them with the facts, then they try to avoid it by playing the "stats don't matter" card.

LEBRON JAMES - 09/10 NOTABLE MISSED GAME WINNERS

1) Celtics Vs Cavs - LeBron James misses 26-foot three point jumper (113-115, with 4 seconds left)

2) Nuggets vs Cavs - LeBron James misses three point jumper (106-106 at end of regulation)

3) Nugget vs Cavs - LeBron James misses 28-foot three point jumper (118-116 at end of OT)

4) Bobcats vs Cavs - LeBron James misses 24-foot three point jumper (91-88 at end of regulation)

5) Cavs vs Kings - LeBron James misses 22-foot jumper (104-104 at the end of regulation)

6) Cavs vs Memphis - LeBron James misses 25-foot three pointer (100-100 with 1 secs left)

7) Cavs vs Memphis - LeBron James misses 30-foot three point jumper(109-111 at end of OT)

8) Bulls vs Cavs - LeBron James misses layup(86-85 at end of regulation)

1/9 (11%) on GWS in 09/10.

(note: the one he made were freethrows, roflmao...)

[PowerGlove]

You owned me?:oldlol:

This is my second post in this thread. What are you talking about? I didnt even read this thread, I just know how easy it is to get you riled up.

[Bladers]

You owned me?:oldlol:

This is my second post in this thread. What are you talking about? I didnt even read this thread, I just know how easy it is to get you riled up.

No, if you read the thread you would understand why I did the research.

[PowerGlove]

No, if you read the thread you would understand why I did the research.
I dont have to read the thread to know why you did the research.:oldlol:

This is what you do in every Lebron thread.

[tpols]

I owned all of you now you are going to downplay stats?
Isn't it ironic that an hour ago, stats were Lebron's bestfriend? Now its his worst enemy. Everyone was talking about efficiecy, now they are silent!:oldlol:

Typical of Lebron's fanboys, when you own them with the facts, then they try to avoid it by playing the "stats don't matter" card.

LEBRON JAMES - 09/10 NOTABLE MISSED GAME WINNERS

1) Celtics Vs Cavs - LeBron James misses 26-foot three point jumper (113-115, with 4 seconds left)

2) Nuggets vs Cavs - LeBron James misses three point jumper (106-106 at end of regulation)

3) Nugget vs Cavs - LeBron James misses 28-foot three point jumper (118-116 at end of OT)

4) Bobcats vs Cavs - LeBron James misses 24-foot three point jumper (91-88 at end of regulation)

5) Cavs vs Kings - LeBron James misses 22-foot jumper (104-104 at the end of regulation)

6) Cavs vs Memphis - LeBron James misses 25-foot three pointer (100-100 with 1 secs left)

7) Cavs vs Memphis - LeBron James misses 30-foot three point jumper(109-111 at end of OT)

8) Bulls vs Cavs - LeBron James misses layup(86-85 at end of regulation)

1/9 (11%) on GWS in 09/10.

(note: the one he made were freethrows, roflmao...)
Damn man... puttin in work:applause:

[juju151111]

Damn man... puttin in work:applause:
putting i what work?? He didn't prove anything since 82games hasn't updated gamewinners stats. They say LJ scored the most in the 4th last season, which he did. WTF is the problem here?

[tpols]

putting i what work?? He didn't prove anything since 82games hasn't updated gamewinners stats. They say LJ scored the most in the 4th last season, which he did. WTF is the problem here?
There's a reason 82games doesn't update the gamewinners list. Lebron wasn't even close to the top of it.

[Simple Jack]

I owned all of you now you are going to downplay stats?
Isn't it ironic that an hour ago, stats were Lebron's bestfriend? Now its his worst enemy. Everyone was talking about efficiecy, now they are silent!:oldlol:

Typical of Lebron's fanboys, when you own them with the facts, then they try to avoid it by playing the "stats don't matter" card.

LEBRON JAMES - 09/10 NOTABLE MISSED GAME WINNERS

1) Celtics Vs Cavs - LeBron James misses 26-foot three point jumper (113-115, with 4 seconds left)

2) Nuggets vs Cavs - LeBron James misses three point jumper (106-106 at end of regulation)

3) Nugget vs Cavs - LeBron James misses 28-foot three point jumper (118-116 at end of OT)

4) Bobcats vs Cavs - LeBron James misses 24-foot three point jumper (91-88 at end of regulation)

5) Cavs vs Kings - LeBron James misses 22-foot jumper (104-104 at the end of regulation)

6) Cavs vs Memphis - LeBron James misses 25-foot three pointer (100-100 with 1 secs left)

7) Cavs vs Memphis - LeBron James misses 30-foot three point jumper(109-111 at end of OT)

8) Bulls vs Cavs - LeBron James misses layup(86-85 at end of regulation)

1/9 (11%) on GWS in 09/10.

(note: the one he made were freethrows, roflmao...)


Stats don't mean anything. Watch the game. [/kobe stan]

[SinJackal]

Did you watch the Game winner Kobe had on Lebron?
Kobe :blah :blah :blah :blah :blah :blah

LeBron still nailed a game clincher in Kobe's eye, and stopped him from hitting a game winner. That's: LeBron: 2 Kobe: 1. So you lose anyway.

You once again, get owned by me, as you always do.



Posted what? Where was the source? post them.
Btw, where is SinJackal... I owned him and he left, LOL.

Grown ups have to do something called "work", little kid, and cannot be online all day to have fun like you can.

You also didn't "own" me. You never have, and never will. You aren't even half as bright as you need to be to "own" me. You're the easiest person on this forum to rip your posts/logic apart, and it's not even close. The most you can hope for is a short break in between me shooting down your shit posts with facts and logic.



While I don't condone your trolling, those last 3 shots Kobe hit (all in LeBron's eye) were amazing. Especially when you consider Kobe wasn't having the best night offensively. Dude has ice in his veins in the clutch, gotta admire that.

Wrong. First shot was not in LeBron's eye, it was in Ilgauskis' eye. LeBron had a pick set for him to seperate himself from LeBron and pulled up for a J' before LeBron could even get back close enough to sniff Kobe's armpits when he pulled up for the shot.

Second shot was once again off a pick, a moving (illegal) pick fyi, and was not Kobe beating LeBron straight up, yet again. It was in Ilgauskis' eye, again, with LeBron trying to get back to block the shot.

Third one he finally shoots over James with a jacked up prayer circus shot while he was running to the side and falling out of bounds with a fadeaway. 1 of 3 was over LeBron. Kobe also got beat by LeBron (1 on 1) on the following play, and the shot was only stopped by Odom's help D', no thanks to Kobe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ0Ak6AMpWw&feature=related

^ Kobe missing yet another game winner vs James. So he made one vs him, but bricked 3 others. That means he was 1/4 with game winners vs James, which is 25%. Which happens to be his prime years' game winner FG%. A stat that it not a coincidence.



But this is a game winning shot and block by lebron or not??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2snGTIQw8n0#t=4m24s

:confusedshrug:

It is. And at the end of that game (part 11 video of that game), Kobe bricks yet another three with James guarding him (which makes #3 bricked vs James, opposed to his one make vs James)



LMAO @ this troll.
According to 82games, Kobe had more than 10 of those JUST last season but they decide not to update it... Instead they picked years favorable to Lebron.

Your ignorance knows no bounds. That list was made over a year ago, and hence, does not include stats from after it was published.

[QUOTE]Copyright

[catch24]

Wrong. First shot was not in LeBron's eye, it was in Ilgauskis' eye. LeBron had a pick set for him to seperate himself from LeBron and pulled up for a J' before LeBron could even get back close enough to sniff Kobe's armpits when he pulled up for the shot.

Second shot was once again off a pick, a moving (illegal) pick fyi, and was not Kobe beating LeBron straight up, yet again. It was in Ilgauskis' eye, again, with LeBron trying to get back to block the shot.

Third one he finally shoots over James with a jacked up prayer circus shot while he was running to the side and falling out of bounds with a fadeaway. 1 of 3 was over LeBron. Kobe also got beat by LeBron (1 on 1) on the following play, and the shot was only stopped by Odom's help D', no thanks to Kobe.

Try again kiddo. I may of worded my post wrong, but all three shots were defended by LeBron while the third one, regardless of it being a 'prayer shot', was in LBJ's eye.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zXluEXVckM

First shot 5:38 -- LeBron gets a hand up, regardless of the pic, Kobe makes the shot

Second shot 5:47 -- Again, despite the pic, LeBron contests the shot well but to no avail as Kobe scorers.

Final shot 5:59 -- Greatly contested, nothing LeBron could do but turn around and look at his bench.

[Sakkreth]

Kobe has more game winners cause he's playing longer, James has better % cause he shoots layups more often than kobe as game winners. And i would still take Reggie Miller above those two and even Jordan for game winning shot.

[SinJackal]

Try again kiddo. I may of worded my post wrong, but all three shots were defended by LeBron while the third one, regardless of it being a 'prayer shot', was in LBJ's eye.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zXluEXVckM

First shot 5:38 -- LeBron gets a hand up, regardless of the pic, Kobe makes the shot

Second shot 5:47 -- Again, despite the pic, LeBron contests the shot well but to no avail as Kobe scorers.

Final shot 5:59 -- Greatly contested, nothing LeBron could do but turn around and look at his bench.

LeBron was defending Kobe during the play, but due to screens, was not in position to contest Kobe's shot 2 of the 3 times. Therefore only one of the three shots can be considered "shot in his eye". One of the three was a wide open shot with no one contesting it, one was barely contested but only after the ball was released, and one was actually contested properly.

First shot, LeBron is rushing over to Kobe after fighting over a screen, and does not even begin get a hand up until Kobe's almost releasing the ball. After the ball is halfway to the rim, LeBron is close enough to have even stood a chance of contesting the shot.

Second shot, again, LeBron is not there to contest the shot due to a moving screen. He gets there sooner than the first shot, but still does not get there in time to contest the shot as Kobe is already releasing the ball before he's close enough to do so.

Third shot, Kobe does shoot over LeBron, and he does in fact contest the shot hard as there was no screen for Kobe to get a nearly open shot as he did the first two times.

To further prove my point, pause the video at 5:39. LeBron is directly behind Kobe, with his arms at his sides and on the ground when Kobe is at the peak of his jumper. How is this considered being shot in his eye? It's the exact opposite of being shot in his eye. In fact, Ilgauskis does not even have a hand up when Kobe is at the peak of his jump. They get their hands up after the ball is already released (due to the screen). It's a completely uncontested shot. It's in nobody's eye. So you're dead wrong.

Pause at 5:47 as you suggested. Kobe is at the top of his jumper, LeBron is on the ground with his hands at his sides, still trying to get close enough to contest the shot. LeBron starts to jump into the air and get a hand up after Kobe has already released the ball. It's closer to being a contested shot, and isn't wide open like the last one, but when you're pulling up for a J after a screen and a player is still moving towards you (from the side) to get close enough to contest the shot, it's not in his eye.

So you're wrong, again. A shot is not "in a player's eye" if they are 5-8 feet away from the guy, to the back/side of the player due to a screen when they are shooting the ball. Shooting "in someone's eye" is when you shoot over someone who is already there defending you and is actively contesting the shot as you are pulling up for it. . .not when they're trying to close the gap after a screen to get close enough to contest it. Only the third shot qualifies as being "shot in LeBron's eye", because it's the only shot Kobe didn't use a screen to get away from LeBron first before pulling up for an open shot.

So to repeat, rushing over to contest a shot on a player who's nearly shooting a wide open shot after the player shooting used a screen to get away from you, is not a shot that's being shot in his eye. Period.

So you're wrong.

[catch24]

LeBron was defending Kobe during the play, but due to screens, was not in position to contest Kobe's shot 2 of the 3 times. Therefore only one of the three shots can be considered "shot in his eye". One of the three was a wide open shot with no one contesting it, one was barely contested but only after the ball was released, and one was actually contested properly.

Try again troll. Read my post for a second and maybe third time. You might learn something. Despite not being in position, LeBron got a hand up to contest ALL 3 shots. The second more than the first attempt. While the screen came, he maneuvered in a way to at least attempt to BLOCK Kobe's shot. Anyone with a pair of eyes can see this. Apparently, for some odd reason, you're denying it.

First:
http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/5941/28993341.png

Second:
http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/7505/82365724.jpg

As you can see, you're the one thats wrong kid.


So you're wrong, again. A shot is not "in a player's eye" if they are 5-8 feet away from the guy

Wrong YET again. Look at the pics above, LeBron was not 5-8 feet away from Kobe. Open up your eyes kid. So, moronic troll... All 3 shots were NOT in LeBron's eye (already said my post was worded wrong), but all were contested and the FINAL shot was, well, in the face of LeBron's.

Keep trying, you'll continue to be proven wrong tiny troll.

[Phong]

My favorite LeBron game winner: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhbM6uuCt74

He travels all over the place but the refs let it go. :applause:

[tpols]

LeBron was defending Kobe during the play, but due to screens, was not in position to contest Kobe's shot 2 of the 3 times. Therefore only one of the three shots can be considered "shot in his eye". One of the three was a wide open shot with no one contesting it, one was barely contested but only after the ball was released, and one was actually contested properly.

First shot, LeBron is rushing over to Kobe after fighting over a screen, and does not even begin get a hand up until Kobe's almost releasing the ball. After the ball is halfway to the rim, LeBron is close enough to have even stood a chance of contesting the shot.

Second shot, again, LeBron is not there to contest the shot due to a moving screen. He gets there sooner than the first shot, but still does not get there in time to contest the shot as Kobe is already releasing the ball before he's close enough to do so.

Third shot, Kobe does shoot over LeBron, and he does in fact contest the shot hard as there was no screen for Kobe to get a nearly open shot as he did the first two times.

To further prove my point, pause the video at 5:39. LeBron is directly behind Kobe, with his arms at his sides and on the ground when Kobe is at the peak of his jumper. How is this considered being shot in his eye? It's the exact opposite of being shot in his eye. In fact, Ilgauskis does not even have a hand up when Kobe is at the peak of his jump. They get their hands up after the ball is already released (due to the screen). It's a completely uncontested shot. It's in nobody's eye. So you're dead wrong.

Pause at 5:47 as you suggested. Kobe is at the top of his jumper, LeBron is on the ground with his hands at his sides, still trying to get close enough to contest the shot. LeBron starts to jump into the air and get a hand up after Kobe has already released the ball. It's closer to being a contested shot, and isn't wide open like the last one, but when you're pulling up for a J after a screen and a player is still moving towards you (from the side) to get close enough to contest the shot, it's not in his eye.

So you're wrong, again. A shot is not "in a player's eye" if they are 5-8 feet away from the guy, to the back/side of the player due to a screen when they are shooting the ball. Shooting "in someone's eye" is when you shoot over someone who is already there defending you and is actively contesting the shot as you are pulling up for it. . .not when they're trying to close the gap after a screen to get close enough to contest it. Only the third shot qualifies as being "shot in LeBron's eye", because it's the only shot Kobe didn't use a screen to get away from LeBron first before pulling up for an open shot.

So to repeat, rushing over to contest a shot on a player who's nearly shooting a wide open shot after the player shooting used a screen to get away from you, is not a shot that's being shot in his eye. Period.

So you're wrong.
This guy's too easy. Everything he just made up before with no sources was proven wrong.

How are you going to dispute kobe hit those in lebron's eye? Catch24 just showed you the pictures!

Once again you get anally raped. Nice try though man.

[macpierce]

kobe hits clutch jumpshot with hands in his face all the time, I think lebron did it once against orlando :hammerhead:

[Bladers]

Isn't it ironic that sinjackal hasn't respond to how Lebron is 0/8 in GWS jumpers.
But 1/9 with FTs.:lol :lol :lol :lol

[jlauber]

I think these "game winners" are over-rated. You want a game-winner? How about outscoring an ENTIRE team (that would go onto the Finals that year) in three quarters, by himself...62-61. THAT is a "game-winner."

I'm sure you could find countless games by the GREATS who just crushed their opponents in leading their team's to wins.

[The_Yearning]

My favorite LeBron game winner: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhbM6uuCt74

He travels all over the place but the refs let it go. :applause:

SMH...he ran back to the bench talking smack like that was clutch and that game meant something.

LBJ to me gets so happy and excited when he does something even remotely clutch...especially that shot he hit vs. Orlando...it was a lucky ass shot and he was celebrating like he just got crowned King of the NBA.

[Phong]

SMH...he ran back to the bench talking smack like that was clutch and that game meant something.The funny part is him screaming and saying how it should have been an and1. :facepalm

Dude, wake up! That was a ****in' travel. :lol