What is Kobe's legacy if he beats Miami's big 3 in the finals?

[All Net]

I think most would agree Kobe is in that 9-10 range at the moment. Would beating Lebron and Wade in the finals jump him up to maybe the top 5 if he manages to beat these two superstars while winning his 6th championship and winning his 3rd finals MVP along with completing a Lakers 3-peat. A lot are expecting L.A to beat Miami due to the size factor but does Kobe leading Lakers to another 3-peat jump him even higher?

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

The Lakers are still the favorites.
wrong..with that being said +300 (+300 lakers winning vs +160 miami odds) is great, i might have to lay a hundo on that.

[TMacYaoRockets]

Beating the big 3 would turn Kobe's legacy up a notch. Cause the Lakers defeated one of the biggest obstacles which are the Heat.

[New York Knicks]

Any analyst will tell you the Lakers are still the favorites. No combination of wing players can battle against LA's ridiculous frontcourt rotation.

[Heat>your team]

Definetly top 9.

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

Any analyst will tell you the Lakers are still the favorites. No combination of wing players can battle against LA's ridiculous frontcourt rotation.
i agree 100%..these lines are obviously trying to fool the public. just like the lakers/celtics line 3 years ago

[Bring-Your-Js]

I think most would agree Kobe is in that 9-10 range at the moment. Would beating Lebron and Wade in the finals jump him up to maybe the top 5 if he manages to beat these two superstars while winning his 6th championship and winning his 3rd finals MVP along with completing a Lakers 3-peat. A lot are expecting L.A to beat Miami due to the size factor but does Kobe leading Lakers to another 3-peat jump him even higher?

I don't entertain all-time player lists often but off hand, I'd guess you're selling him a little bit short. I can see why you would aim relatively conservative. It's a sensitive topic. People catch feelings over it. It's real cute. Still, it begs the question:

How many NBA players can lay claim to:

25,000+ Career Points
5,000+ Career Playoff Points
5 NBA Championships
2 Finals MVPs
8 All-NBA 1st Team
8 All-Def 1st Team

And I don't mean x player has 25,000 points, y player has 2 finals mvps. I mean as a whole package. Those are just his basic career accomplishments through age 31.

Those are the facts.

[jlauber]

Most intelligent observers have Kobe in the Top-10 right now. IMHO, another ring (no matter who it is against) vaults him into the top-6 (Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, and Kareem), and ahead of Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, and Bird. Not only that, but as was posted previously...Kobe is going to be in some rareified air statistically by the time he retires. Barring injury, he will probably play at least another 4-5 years. There is no telling where he will finish on most "expert's" lists, but he conceivably be a top-5 player.

[Scott Baker]

Most intelligent observers have Kobe in the Top-10 right now.

Intelligence has nothing to do with opinion.

[Sarcastic]

If he beats Miami Thrice, it will hurt his legacy. They will say "Kobe was so mean, and didn't let Lebron get a ring".

[jlauber]

Intelligence has nothing to do with opinion.


There is opinion...and then there is INTELLIGENT opinion. I don't think anyone with any intelligence would claim that Samuel Dalembert is the GOAT.

[G-Funk]

He will surpass Magic as the greatest Laker of All-time

[Scott Baker]

There is opinion...and then there is INTELLIGENT opinion. I don't think anyone with any intelligence would claim that Samuel Dalembert is the GOAT.

Greatest lists are all opinion though. No matter how ridiculously stupid or intelligent, it all boils down to opinion.

There is never a definitive list.

[Bladers]

If he beats Miami Thrice, it will hurt his legacy. They will say "Kobe was so mean, and didn't let Lebron get a ring".

This,

nuff said.

[tpols]

Greatest lists are all opinion though. No matter how ridiculously stupid or intelligent, it all boils down to opinion.

There is never a definitive list.
Intelligent lists are the only ones accepted. Post a list thats remotely off on ISH and you'll get loled and called a retard for 5 pages.

[PowerGlove]

Only one year?

It depends on what happens after. If Lebron/Wade and Co dominate the league winning 5+ titles the rest of the way, I think it will boost him up a little. Maybe to the six spot, but if he wins multiple times, he's top five no question.

[Andrei89]

If he averages above 25 points above 5 assist and 5 rebounds + 2 steals + shoots above 45% and they win = GOAT

we'l see

[tpols]

Huh everyone talking about how the Lakers frontcourt its the main reason why Lakers are still favorite and (some say) will destroy the Miami Heat ....and Kobe would be top 5 because of that?:wtf: .Just like the other 5 Kobe rings, its an amazing player on a amazing loaded team. Winning another ring on this situation doesnt make him better than 5 years ago when he was playing with Smush Parker's.
What? So adding rings to your resume as the man doesn't boost your legacy? Especially against the most stacked team of the last twenty years in terms of raw talent? Name another team since magic's era that had the best player in the league, the 2nd/3rd best player in the league, and the second best PF in the league on the same team. You can't. If kobe plays well against them and wins another ring he's top 5.

[Bring-Your-Js]

The second fiddle argument is rather weak IMO. The only season it's even arguable from my point of view is 2000, when Kobe became a 22+ ppg scorer and sprained his ankle in the Finals against Indiana. What's my argument?

Wade 06 playoffs: 28.4 ppg/5.9 rpg/5.7 apg

Kobe 2001: 29.4 ppg/7.3 rpg/6.1 apg
Kobe 2002: 26.6 ppg/5.8 rpg/4.6 apg

So basically, Kobe as a sidekick is equivalent to Wade's most heralded playoff run as the Man? Ridiculous.

Finals are what kill Kobe's chances and any non-homer will admit this. However, even that is vastly overstated. You hear much about 2000 and 2004 and nothing of 2002 when he averaged 27 ppg on 52%. People downplay an otherwise impressive 32/5/7 2009 Finals against Orlando, the No. 1 ranked defense in the league that year. They'll also claim 2010 as the "worst ever". Ridiculous. Compare to Jordan's '96 Finals.

MJ's first 3peat sets him well apart, however.

[NuggetsFan]

It's all about how he plays. If Miami dominates this year and meets L.A in the finals and Kobe actually has a GREAT finals it would be extremely good for his legacy. If he shoots 38% and scores like 26 points and It's a TEAM effort than obviously it's still great cause he got his 6th ring but wouldn't be the same thing IMO.

Kobe's legacy is in a great situation tho. He's just got to the run with it.

[rzp]

What? So adding rings to your resume as the man doesn't boost your legacy? Especially against the most stacked team of the last twenty years in terms of raw talent? Name another team since magic's era that had the best player in the league, the 2nd/3rd best player in the league, and the second best PF in the league on the same team. You can't. If kobe plays well against them and wins another ring he's top 5.

Adding rings to boost your legacy its a matter of situation, its about domination, how the player embarass the oponent...people say Wilt its a top-3 even with 2 ring, one as sidekick, some people say Hakeem its ahead of Shaq even with half of his rings. TD legacy its highly boosted because he dominated and won it all with young Parker and Manu. MJ won 6 times without a dominant frontcourt. Kobe never dominated like that, actually he sucked big time on many finals, u can't put automatically him at top five just counting his rings as a 25-5-5 player :rolleyes: (just to turn off that Robert Horry bs).
About the bolded, 2004 lakers say hi (not only more raw talent but also mutch more balance)...

[thomaspynchon]

Well, first off, the Lakers win more often in spite of Kobe than due to Kobe.

Second, nobody knows how good the Heat will be.

Third, to many people, Kobe's legacy will be that of someone who so thoroughly trashed his teammates, ownership, and organization (admitted implicity he wasn't good enough) that he was able to receive an illicit trade that was able to get him championships.

[rzp]

Wade 06 playoffs: 28.4 ppg/5.9 rpg/5.7 apg

Kobe 2001: 29.4 ppg/7.3 rpg/6.1 apg
Kobe 2002: 26.6 ppg/5.8 rpg/4.6 apg

So basically, Kobe as a sidekick is equivalent to Wade's most heralded playoff run as the Man? Ridiculous.



No its not ridiculous... check Miami's second best scorer numbers.

Then check the freakin insane Lakers Shaq's numbers.

Wade carried the team, Kobe not. Thats the little difference

Kobe never carried the team in his 5 rings btw.

[chazzy]

It really comes down to how he plays, like Nuggetsfan said. It's a boost either way, but a bigger one if he has an incredible series.


Well, first off, the Lakers win more often in spite of Kobe than due to Kobe.

Second, nobody knows how good the Heat will be.

Third, to many people, Kobe's legacy will be that of someone who so thoroughly trashed his teammates, ownership, and organization (admitted implicity he wasn't good enough) that he was able to receive an illicit trade that was able to get him championships.

Strong first post :rolleyes:

[G-Funk]

Huh everyone talking about how the Lakers frontcourt its the main reason why Lakers are still favorite and (some say) will destroy the Miami Heat ....and Kobe would be top 5 because of that? .Just like the other 5 Kobe rings, its an amazing player on a amazing loaded team. Winning another ring on this situation doesnt make him better than 5 years ago when he was playing with Smush Parker's.

wtf? In that case Wade was a player who happend to play on a loaded team. So if he wins 3 more he gets no credit for playing along side James,Bosh. Lebron shouldnt either, Oh and tell Magic and Kareem to return their rings for playing in loaded teams, tell that to MJ as well. Oh and Don't forget Bill Russell. BTW Wlit didn;t win until he was in a loaded team.

[baseketball4life]

His legacy is what it is right now, the best player of his generation easily.

[rezznor]

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs395.snc4/45820_655549267156_30502284_35977347_6552573_n.jpg

[thomaspynchon]

It really comes down to how he plays, like Nuggetsfan said. It's a boost either way, but a bigger one if he has an incredible series.



Strong first post :rolleyes:

Sorry, I have posted here before but lost my account info.

But I don't see how you (presumably a Kobe/Lakers fan) can explain away a 6-24 performance in a Finals Game 7. The only difference between Kobe and guys like Dirk and Lebron are his teammates (although Lebron no longer has this excuse).

[tpols]

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs395.snc4/45820_655549267156_30502284_35977347_6552573_n.jpg
You realize this is dissing lebron right?

[TROLL_HUNTER]

Well, the thread title starts from a wrong standpoint:

either its Kobe vs Lebron or its Kobe AND Gasol vs the Big Three

Kobe 's nutters make it sound as if it were Kobe standing up against the whole Miami team on his own and THAT FAILS :facepalm

[barbaroi]

Sorry, I have posted here before but lost my account info.

But I don't see how you (presumably a Kobe/Lakers fan) can explain away a 6-24 performance in a Finals Game 7. The only difference between Kobe and guys like Dirk and Lebron are his teammates (although Lebron no longer has this excuse).
Eh, that game was all defense:
Rondo - 14 points on 13 shots
Ray - 13 points on 14 shots
Sheed - 11 points on 11 shots
Artest - 20 points on 18 shots
Gasol - 19 points on 16 shots
Odom - 7 points on 8 shots
Kobe - 23 points on 24 shots

Basically every player in that game was scoring about 1 point per shot. Kobe's performance was not out of line with the game at all.

[thomaspynchon]

Well, the thread title starts from a wrong standpoint:

either its Kobe vs Lebron or its Kobe AND Gasol vs the Big Three

Kobe 's nutters make it sound as if it were Kobe standing up against the whole Miami team on his own and THAT FAILS :facepalm

Yeah I was thinking this as well. The last time Kobe played without a legit star, he was busy choking against the Suns.

[tpols]

Yeah I was thinking this as well. The last time Kobe played without a legit star, he was busy choking against the Suns.
And the last time lebron played without a legit star, he was choking against the Celtics.:confusedshrug:

[thomaspynchon]

Eh, that game was all defense:
Rondo - 14 points on 13 shots
Ray - 13 points on 14 shots
Sheed - 11 points on 11 shots
Artest - 20 points on 18 shots
Gasol - 19 points on 16 shots
Odom - 7 points on 8 shots
Kobe - 23 points on 24 shots

Basically every player in that game was scoring about 1 point per shot. Kobe's performance was not out of line with the game at all.

True. But he had about 2 good games that series, 2-3 atrocious ones, and 2 decent ones. He wouldn't even have gotten to that point if not for his great teammates. In fact, he wouldn't have made it out of the first round if not for his great teammates.

I'm not trying to "hate" here but this is what I see as the truth. No one else last season had the luxury of stringing together bad games and still winning, except Tim Duncan.

[thomaspynchon]

And the last time lebron played without a legit star, he was choking against the Celtics.:confusedshrug:

Yeah, I don't think that much of LeBron. He has no heart at all.

[ginobli2311]

His legacy is what it is right now, the best player of his generation easily.

LOL. love the absurd use of "easily"

shaq and duncan are both easily the best players of this generation dude.
you would think in 12,000 plus posts you would know that.

kobe's peak doesn't even remotely compare to the dominance of shaq and duncan.

damn ISH ignores reality so much when it comes to Kobe.

[04mzwach]

Pau Gasol should start getting some mention as a great player if they beat the Heat.

[jlauber]

Sorry, I have posted here before but lost my account info.

But I don't see how you (presumably a Kobe/Lakers fan) can explain away a 6-24 performance in a Finals Game 7. The only difference between Kobe and guys like Dirk and Lebron are his teammates (although Lebron no longer has this excuse).

I get a kick out of posts like these...

Kobe had a bad SHOOTING night in that game seven. His teammates were of no help, and continually looked to Kobe to make the shots. In the meantime, Kobe's determination and grit, with his 15 rebounds and great defense, kept LA in the game...and the Lakers were champions.

How did Kobe do in the previous rounds? How did Kobe do in the San Antonio series throughout his career? Why is it that Kobe had FOUR post-seasons of over 30 ppg, and SEVEN higher than Bird's BEST scoring post-season?

And does anyone actually believe that Kobe will be remembered for demanding a trade a few years ago? Or for getting traded in his rookie year?

Do you think that Jordan is going to be remembered for his 5-19 shooting game in the Finals? Do you think that Jordan is going to be remembered for playing on five losing teams? Or that he basically quit in the Piston series in the late 80's? Or that he could barely get off the floor in his last two years? Or that he has been a horrible GM?

Kobe will go down in history as one of the greatest NBA players EVER. He will probably finish somewhere close to MJ, as well. Let's just get real here.

[chazzy]

Sorry, I have posted here before but lost my account info.

But I don't see how you (presumably a Kobe/Lakers fan) can explain away a 6-24 performance in a Finals Game 7. The only difference between Kobe and guys like Dirk and Lebron are his teammates (although Lebron no longer has this excuse).

Yeah he was pretty bad. Looked like he was pressing, but I thought he played ok down the stretch. But you stated:

1. Lakers win more often in spite of Kobe, which is just a flat out lie. There's no backing to this, unless you think every Laker game is like that Game 7.

2. Kobe's legacy will be that of someone who so thoroughly trashed his teammates, ownership, and organization (admitted implicity he wasn't good enough) that he was able to receive an illicit trade that was able to get him championships. Which just isn't true either. The only people who still think that are the morons who are stuck in 2007 and turned a blind eye to what he's done in the past 3 years because of a "rigged trade."


He wouldn't even have gotten to that point if not for his great teammates.

And you can say that about pretty much every great player. This "stacked supporting cast" knock is getting old.

[thomaspynchon]

Yeah he was pretty bad. Looked like he was pressing, but I thought he played ok down the stretch. But you stated:

1. Lakers win more often in spite of Kobe, which is just a flat out lie. There's no backing to this, unless you think every Laker game is like that Game 7.

2. Kobe's legacy will be that of someone who so thoroughly trashed his teammates, ownership, and organization (admitted implicity he wasn't good enough) that he was able to receive an illicit trade that was able to get him championships. Which just isn't true either. The only people who still think that are the morons who are stuck in 2007 and turned a blind eye to what he's done in the past 3 years because of a "rigged trade."

Correct me if I am wrong, but did he not shoot extremely poorly against the Thunder?

Did Kobe not trash his organization?

Come on man, I think Kobe probably is the best player of his generation but he sure as hell isn't this one man team that people want to posit.

[barbaroi]

True. But he had about 2 good games that series, 2-3 atrocious ones, and 2 decent ones. He wouldn't even have gotten to that point if not for his great teammates. In fact, he wouldn't have made it out of the first round if not for his great teammates.

I'm not trying to "hate" here but this is what I see as the truth. No one else last season had the luxury of stringing together bad games and still winning, except Tim Duncan.
Um, what about in the 98 finals when Jordan went 13/29, 14/33, 12/27, 9/26, and 15/35. You going to discount his contribution to that championship? Winning is more than just putting up pretty numbers. Against great defensive teams your numbers just aren't going to look good. They just won't, no matter what. And if you want to win, you just have to deal with it and find a way to put points on the board.

[clayton]

What if the Lakers beat Miami while Kobe shot like crap?

[rzp]

Kobe 's nutters make it sound as if it were Kobe standing up against the whole Miami team on his own and THAT FAILS :facepalm

this

[Bring-Your-Js]

No its not ridiculous... check Miami's second best scorer numbers.

Then check the freakin insane Lakers Shaq's numbers.

Wade carried the team, Kobe not. Thats the little difference

Kobe never carried the team in his 5 rings btw.

That isn't the point. Kobe was as effective/dominant as supposed "second fiddle" as Dwyane Wade in his championship year. I'm not comparing the quality of their teams, only individual performance. What's the point of pointing out "prime Shaq" when he's already won twice with a 2nd scorer a dozen or so ppg below Shaq? It's simply not as extreme as needing a "prime shaq" to win. People continue to change the criteria in last ditch efforts to diminish anything he's accomplished.

The last statement doesn't even warrant a response.

[ginobli2311]

I get a kick out of posts like these...

Kobe had a bad SHOOTING night in that game seven. His teammates were of no help, and continually looked to Kobe to make the shots. In the meantime, Kobe's determination and grit, with his 15 rebounds and great defense, kept LA in the game...and the Lakers were champions.

How did Kobe do in the previous rounds? How did Kobe do in the San Antonio series throughout his career? Why is it that Kobe had FOUR post-seasons of over 30 ppg, and SEVEN higher than Bird's BEST scoring post-season?

And does anyone actually believe that Kobe will be remembered for demanding a trade a few years ago? Or for getting traded in his rookie year?

Do you think that Jordan is going to be remembered for his 5-19 shooting game in the Finals? Do you think that Jordan is going to be remembered for playing on five losing teams? Or that he basically quit in the Piston series in the late 80's? Or that he could barely get off the floor in his last two years? Or that he has been a horrible GM?

Kobe will go down in history as one of the greatest NBA players EVER. He will probably finish somewhere close to MJ, as well. Let's just get real here.

ok. spin it however you want. kobe was bad in game 7. a few boards (mainly because his center was out and he was guarding a player that put him in the paint defensively on every play) does not change anything. he was awful.....and if he didn't have a great team around him we would never have had a chance to win. thats a fact. if the lakers were not a great team with a great coach....that celtics 13 point lead would have turned into 20 plus and the game would have been over. plain and simple.

also.....you act like it was one series or one game. kobe was way too many blemishes on his playoff resume to be compared to MJ....its laughable. we all know the list. but sorry....you can't do what he did in 2004....and you can't let the likes of paul pierce and kg walk off the court in the finals as the 2 best players when you are in your prime and playing the biggest series of your career (at that point). LOL. imagine if drexler had outplayed jordan and won finals mvp and the title back in 92.....think we might see Jordan differently?

kobe will go down as one of the ten best ever. but both shaq and duncan were better players. so comparing him to MJ is out of the question.

[thomaspynchon]

Um, what about in the 98 finals when Jordan went 13/29, 14/33, 12/27, 9/26, and 15/35. You going to discount his contribution to that championship? Winning is more than just putting up pretty numbers. Against great defensive teams your numbers just aren't going to look good. They just won't, no matter what. And if you want to win, you just have to deal with it and find a way to put points on the board.

I understand this. There's just no way Kobe would have been in the Finals if he had a 2nd option on the level of a Jason terry or a Mo Williams.

Hell of a player though.

[chazzy]

Correct me if I am wrong, but did he not shoot extremely poorly against the Thunder?

Yeah, I attributed that to his swollen knee more than the Thunder defense though. Going into that series:


In his final three games of the regular season, Bryant shot 5-of-23, 8-of-24 and 8-of-23, and multiple observers noted that he looked far less explosive than usual physically as a result of injuries to his knee and ankle.

The Portland loss seemed especially worrisome -- the playoffs were just six days away, and Bryant had sat out the previous two games to get better. Instead, it seemed as if he regressed, needing 23 shots to score 20 points and having so little elevation that Nicolas Batum blocked one of his deliveries flat-footed.

The 5/23 game was against the same Utah team he torched a couple weeks later.

and then


The procedure did wonders for Bryant, who described the draining as having "the nasty stuff sucked out of my knee." Bryant averaged 24 points on 38.4 percent shooting in the first four games against the Thunder before having his knee drained and has been on a tear ever since, averaging 31.3 points on 51.5 percent shooting in his last 12 games.

He was visibly better after that.

[jlauber]

ok. spin it however you want. kobe was bad in game 7. a few boards (mainly because his center was out and he was guarding a player that put him in the paint defensively on every play) does not change anything. he was awful.....and if he didn't have a great team around him we would never have had a chance to win. thats a fact. if the lakers were not a great team with a great coach....that celtics 13 point lead would have turned into 20 plus and the game would have been over. plain and simple.

also.....you act like it was one series or one game. kobe was way too many blemishes on his playoff resume to be compared to MJ....its laughable. we all know the list. but sorry....you can't do what he did in 2004....and you can't let the likes of paul pierce and kg walk off the court in the finals as the 2 best players when you are in your prime and playing the biggest series of your career (at that point). LOL. imagine if drexler had outplayed jordan and won finals mvp and the title back in 92.....think we might see Jordan differently?

kobe will go down as one of the ten best ever. but both shaq and duncan were better players. so comparing him to MJ is out of the question.

I saw Kobe DOMINATING Duncan in several of those playoff series. Hell, his record as a Laker vs. Duncan's Spurs has been 18-8. So don't give me this crap about Duncan being a better player.

[ginobli2311]

Um, what about in the 98 finals when Jordan went 13/29, 14/33, 12/27, 9/26, and 15/35. You going to discount his contribution to that championship? Winning is more than just putting up pretty numbers. Against great defensive teams your numbers just aren't going to look good. They just won't, no matter what. And if you want to win, you just have to deal with it and find a way to put points on the board.

you can't take things out of context. jordan was needed differently. he didn't have a low post presence to feed the ball to. pippen was also playing injured/awful agains the jazz in 98. he was jacking up 3s left and right in some games because he couldn't even run.

so if you are going to compare.....please use context.

[thomaspynchon]

Yeah, I attributed that to his swollen knee more than the Thunder defense though. Going into that series:



The 5/23 game was against the same Utah team he torched a couple weeks later.

and then



He was visibly better after that.

Interesting. I wonder how many ounces he had drained. But then again, it's a nice luxury to have--other players would have been swept by that point.

[ginobli2311]

I saw Kobe DOMINATING Duncan in several of those playoff series. Hell, his record as a Laker vs. Duncan's Spurs has been 18-8. So don't give me this crap about Duncan being a better player.

and i saw duncan dominating both shaq and kobe at times as well. duncan is simply better than kobe. he's more efficient, he's a much better teammate, he demands more attention offensively and opens up the court and gets his teammates better looks than kobe.....and duncan is literally ten times the defensive force that kobe is.

sorry dude. 4 titles with that level of talent around him. 11 straight years of 50 plus wins. duncan is the best player of this generation. sorry. really not worth debating. kobe scores 2.5 more points per game. thats its. and he does so on more shots and more possessions used.

again. 2.5 more points per game. duncan does just about everything else better and blows kobe out of the water in terms of defensive impact.

easily duncan.

[barbaroi]

ok. spin it however you want. kobe was bad in game 7. a few boards (mainly because his center was out and he was guarding a player that put him in the paint defensively on every play) does not change anything. he was awful.....and if he didn't have a great team around him we would never have had a chance to win. thats a fact. if the lakers were not a great team with a great coach....that celtics 13 point lead would have turned into 20 plus and the game would have been over. plain and simple.

also.....you act like it was one series or one game. kobe was way too many blemishes on his playoff resume to be compared to MJ....its laughable. we all know the list. but sorry....you can't do what he did in 2004....and you can't let the likes of paul pierce and kg walk off the court in the finals as the 2 best players when you are in your prime and playing the biggest series of your career (at that point). LOL. imagine if drexler had outplayed jordan and won finals mvp and the title back in 92.....think we might see Jordan differently?

kobe will go down as one of the ten best ever. but both shaq and duncan were better players. so comparing him to MJ is out of the question.
Kobe has a great team blah blah blah. What was so great about Odom grabbing double digit rebounds in only one of the 7 finals games, or putting up double digit points twice in 7 games? What was so great about Fisher going 2 for 10 on 3 pointers in the 7 finals games? What was so great about Artest putting up 4 consecutive games of 6,2,9 and 7 points? What was so great about Andrew Bynum finishing the series with four consecutive statlines of 2pts/3rebs, 6pts/1reb, 2pts/4rebs, 2pts/6rebs?

People like to point out how great Kobe's teammates were, but really the only great teammate Kobe had in those Finals was Pau. The others came through for a game here and there, but on the whole played like garbage quite often. Kobe was the best player in those Finals whether you'd like to acknowledge it or not, and saying his team won in spite of him is just flat out wrong - his "great teammates" spent the majority of those finals playing like crap.

[jlauber]

and i saw duncan dominating both shaq and kobe at times as well. duncan is simply better than kobe. he's more efficient, he's a much better teammate, he demands more attention offensively and opens up the court and gets his teammates better looks than kobe.....and duncan is literally ten times the defensive force that kobe is.

sorry dude. 4 titles with that level of talent around him. 11 straight years of 50 plus wins. duncan is the best player of this generation. sorry. really not worth debating. kobe scores 2.5 more points per game. thats its. and he does so on more shots and more possessions used.

again. 2.5 more points per game. duncan does just about everything else better and blows kobe out of the water in terms of defensive impact.

easily duncan.

Duncan was a great player, but he is no Kobe, and certainly no Shaq. Kobe over Duncan by an 18-8 margin.

[ginobli2311]

Kobe has a great team blah blah blah. What was so great about Odom grabbing double digit rebounds in only one of the 7 finals games, or putting up double digit points twice in 7 games? What was so great about Fisher going 2 for 10 on 3 pointers in the 7 finals games? What was so great about Artest putting up 4 consecutive games of 6,2,9 and 7 points? What was so great about Andrew Bynum finishing the series with four consecutive statlines of 2pts/3rebs, 6pts/1reb, 2pts/4rebs, 2pts/6rebs?

People like to point out how great Kobe's teammates were, but really the only great teammate Kobe had in those Finals was Pau. The others came through for a game here and there, but on the whole played like garbage quite often. Kobe was the best player in those Finals whether you'd like to acknowledge it or not, and saying his team won in spite of him is just flat out wrong - his "great teammates" spent the majority of those finals playing like crap.


gasol was the best player in that series in my opinion.

well lets see. gasol dominated game 1 on both ends. fisher one a road game in which kobe was awful by taking over down the stretch. again.....derek fisher won a game on the road in the nba finals.....if the lakers lose that game.....which they would have if kobe had kept shooting and playing terrible....the series was over. gasol was great down the stretch in game 7. and artest had a very good game 7 as well....and managed to hold pierce down all series.

now. what about kobe? you hate on his teammates. but what was kobe doing all series long? he was shooting a low percentage. he was shooting 25% in the 4th qtrs combined...LOL. he was turning the ball over in crucial spots. and he was shot jacking and not running the offense time and time again.

he was bad in the finals. gasol wasn't great...but he was better than kobe. and it was a team victory. kobe is "part" of that team. but he did not play well....and that is right in line with all of kobe's finals. he does not play well on the biggest stage.....thats a fact. deal with it.

[ginobli2311]

Duncan was a great player, but he is no Kobe, and certainly no Shaq. Kobe over Duncan by an 18-8 margin.

what does 26 games have to do with entire careers? are you seriously trying to run with a 26 game sample size when each player has played over a thousand games?

my god you are an idiot. what do you mean...duncan is not kobe? of course not. duncan is much better. he's a more complete player that never let ego get in the way of winning. duncan has 4 titles playing with half the talent kobe has had. put duncan and a top 10 player of all time on the same team for 8 years and they win 8 titles. duncan was great from day 1 as well.

just because he isn't spectacular does not mean he isn't great. what do you think wade and duncan or lebron and duncan would have done over the last 7 years? neither one even comes close to shaq.....my guess is that the spurs win 5 titles minimum if duncan had wade/lebron. LOL

are you serious with this stuff.

[barbaroi]

gasol was the best player in that series in my opinion.

well lets see. gasol dominated game 1 on both ends. fisher one a road game in which kobe was awful by taking over down the stretch. again.....derek fisher won a game on the road in the nba finals.....if the lakers lose that game.....which they would have if kobe had kept shooting and playing terrible....the series was over. gasol was great down the stretch in game 7. and artest had a very good game 7 as well....and managed to hold pierce down all series.

now. what about kobe? you hate on his teammates. but what was kobe doing all series long? he was shooting a low percentage. he was shooting 25% in the 4th qtrs combined...LOL. he was turning the ball over in crucial spots. and he was shot jacking and not running the offense time and time again.

he was bad in the finals. gasol wasn't great...but he was better than kobe. and it was a team victory. kobe is "part" of that team. but he did not play well....and that is right in line with all of kobe's finals. he does not play well on the biggest stage.....thats a fact. deal with it.
Let's look at the stat lines shall we:

Game 1: Kobe - 30/7/6 Pau - 23/14/3
Game 2: Kobe - 21/5/6 Pau - 25/8/3
Game 3: Kobe - 29/7/4 Pau - 13/10/4
Game 4: Kobe - 33/6/2 Pau - 21/6/3
Game 5: Kobe - 38/5/4 Pau - 12/12/0
Game 6: Kobe - 26/11/3 Pau - 17/13/9
Game 7: Kobe - 23/15/2 Pau - 19/18/2

Now, how exactly are you going to argue Pau played better?

[plowking]

I'd put him top 5, surpassing Magic, Duncan, Shaq and all that other good stuff.

Still wouldn't be better than MJ, Wilt, Kareem, Bird.

[New York Knicks]

Let's look at the stat lines shall we:

Game 1: Kobe - 30/7/6 Pau - 23/14/3
Game 2: Kobe - 21/5/6 Pau - 25/8/3
Game 3: Kobe - 29/7/4 Pau - 13/10/4
Game 4: Kobe - 33/6/2 Pau - 21/6/3
Game 5: Kobe - 38/5/4 Pau - 12/12/0
Game 6: Kobe - 26/11/3 Pau - 17/13/9
Game 7: Kobe - 23/15/2 Pau - 19/18/2

Now, how exactly are you going to argue Pau played better?
Let's ignore the fact that Kobe took almost twice as many shots.

[chazzy]

Let's look at the stat lines shall we:

Game 1: Kobe - 30/7/6 Pau - 23/14/3
Game 2: Kobe - 21/5/6 Pau - 25/8/3
Game 3: Kobe - 29/7/4 Pau - 13/10/4
Game 4: Kobe - 33/6/2 Pau - 21/6/3
Game 5: Kobe - 38/5/4 Pau - 12/12/0
Game 6: Kobe - 26/11/3 Pau - 17/13/9
Game 7: Kobe - 23/15/2 Pau - 19/18/2

Now, how exactly are you going to argue Pau played better?

Well, you gotta factor in efficiency as well. But Pau didn't show up on the road at all, that's my biggest problem with him getting FMVP. And the one road game he did score well, he only grabbed 6 boards and played bad interior D.

[barbaroi]

Let's ignore the fact that Kobe took almost twice as many shots.
Kobe's TS% was 52.8% a 1.7% dropoff from his regular season TS% of 54.5%, Pau's was 55.6%, a 3.7% dropoff from his regular season TS% of 59.3%. Clearly Pau was being affected by the Boston defense just as much if not moreso than Kobe in this series, so I see no reason why the pattern of shots allotted should have deviated.

[All Net]

Well, you gotta factor in efficiency as well. But Pau didn't show up on the road at all, that's my biggest problem with him getting FMVP. And the one road game he did score well, he only grabbed 6 boards and played bad interior D.

He played well one game, game 3? I think? apart from that he struggled and played abit like he did in 08.

[Bring-Your-Js]

Let's look at the stat lines shall we:

Game 1: Kobe - 30/7/6 Pau - 23/14/3
Game 2: Kobe - 21/5/6 Pau - 25/8/3
Game 3: Kobe - 29/7/4 Pau - 13/10/4
Game 4: Kobe - 33/6/2 Pau - 21/6/3
Game 5: Kobe - 38/5/4 Pau - 12/12/0
Game 6: Kobe - 26/11/3 Pau - 17/13/9
Game 7: Kobe - 23/15/2 Pau - 19/18/2

Now, how exactly are you going to argue Pau played better?

Interesting.

Gasol didn't show up on the road, period.

Western Conf Finals (Away):

Gasol: 15.6 ppg/7.0 rpg
Kobe: 36.6 ppg/8.3 rpg/6.7 apg

NBA Finals (Away):

Gasol: 15.3 ppg/9.3 rpg
Kobe: 33.3 ppg/6.9 rpg/3.3 apg

[barbaroi]

Well, you gotta factor in efficiency as well. But Pau didn't show up on the road at all, that's my biggest problem with him getting FMVP. And the one road game he did score well, he only grabbed 6 boards and played bad interior D.
He was 2% more efficient, than Kobe; That's certainly not enough to argue for Pau as finals MVP in the face of such a large discrepancy in raw production.

[ginobli2311]

He was 2% more efficient, than Kobe; That's certainly not enough to argue for Pau as finals MVP in the face of such a large discrepancy in raw production.

hold on dude. way more to it than a simple point/rebound/assist stat line. how about gasol's length completely dominating the series. did you notice how rondo and pierce never finished at the rim? yea....that was gasol and bynum. gasol outplayed the celtics front line for the series. that is damn impressive. he was going against kg/davis/wallace/perkins.....and he was the best player and owned that matchup.

gasol was better in the 4th qtrs. he was better in game 7....and much better late in game 7.

and he did all of that on limited touches because kobe was shot jacking non stop all series. imagine what gasol would have done if the lakers had run the offense properly the entire series.

[New York Knicks]

He was 2% more efficient, than Kobe; That's certainly not enough to argue for Pau as finals MVP in the face of such a large discrepancy in raw production.
I'm sure you can credit Kobe too for how difficult it was for Boston to score? Had nothing to do with long-ass Gasol patrolling the paint right?

[barbaroi]

and he did all of that on limited touches because kobe was shot jacking non stop all series. imagine what gasol would have done if the lakers had run the offense properly the entire series.
:rolleyes: The Lakers did run the offense properly. Gasol in the finals averaged 12.8 FGA/8.7 FTA per game. During the regular season Gasol averaged 13.0 FGA/5.6FTA per game. Gasol got his shots.

[chazzy]

hold on dude. way more to it than a simple point/rebound/assist stat line. how about gasol's length completely dominating the series. did you notice how rondo and pierce never finished at the rim? yea....that was gasol and bynum. gasol outplayed the celtics front line for the series. that is damn impressive. he was going against kg/davis/wallace/perkins.....and he was the best player and owned that matchup.

gasol was better in the 4th qtrs. he was better in game 7....and much better late in game 7.

and he did all of that on limited touches because kobe was shot jacking non stop all series. imagine what gasol would have done if the lakers had run the offense properly the entire series.

I wouldn't say he completely dominated the entire series, he had stretches of dominance, but he clearly got outplayed by KG, Big Baby, and KG again in 3 consecutive road games.

[barbaroi]

I'm sure you can credit Kobe too for how difficult it was for Boston to score? Had nothing to do with long-ass Gasol patrolling the paint right?
It had everything to do with Gasol. And it had everything to do with Kobe. The team defense was spectacular.

[ginobli2311]

:rolleyes: The Lakers did run the offense properly. Gasol in the finals averaged 12.8 FGA/8.7 FTA per game. During the regular season Gasol averaged 13.0 FGA/5.6FTA per game. Gasol got his shots.

no

he should have had more touches. that does not mean shots always. the way the celtics played them....gasol should have been getting the ball more often. kobe was wasting 3 to 5 possessions with awful shots/decisions.

anyone that watched the game would tell you the ball movement was lacking all series for the lakers other than game 6. and that was mainly kobe's fault. he held the ball way too long on the wing and was not decisive.

[New York Knicks]

It had everything to do with Gasol. And it had everything to do with Kobe. The team defense was spectacular.
LOL. Are you telling me Kobe's impact on defense is equal to Gasol's? Tell me you're not THIS much of a Kobe homer.

[All Net]

It had everything to do with Gasol. And it had everything to do with Kobe. The team defense was spectacular.

Bynum's length clogging the paint gave Boston all kind of problems. Stats aside Bynum was a real factor.

[ginobli2311]

Bynum's length clogging the paint gave Boston all kind of problems. Stats aside Bynum was a real factor.

totally agree. when bynum played he had a great impact.

[jlauber]

what does 26 games have to do with entire careers? are you seriously trying to run with a 26 game sample size when each player has played over a thousand games?

my god you are an idiot. what do you mean...duncan is not kobe? of course not. duncan is much better. he's a more complete player that never let ego get in the way of winning. duncan has 4 titles playing with half the talent kobe has had. put duncan and a top 10 player of all time on the same team for 8 years and they win 8 titles. duncan was great from day 1 as well.

just because he isn't spectacular does not mean he isn't great. what do you think wade and duncan or lebron and duncan would have done over the last 7 years? neither one even comes close to shaq.....my guess is that the spurs win 5 titles minimum if duncan had wade/lebron. LOL

are you serious with this stuff.

We have debated this topic before, and I am not going to dig up EVERY argument in Kobe's favor. Kobe DOMINATED those Spurs-Lakers series...

but having said that, though...

you discount Kobe's dominance over Duncan in those 26 games...yet you point out several of Kobe's "failures" in his post-season career. The FACT is, Kobe has been one of the top-3 SCORERS in post-season HISTORY. AND, his SCORING goes WAY beyond those that argue his FG%. When he is basically the ONLY player that CAN score, as was the case in this past Celtic championship series, of course his FG% is going to be lower.

BTW, do you want me to look up ALL of the MANY post-season flops in Duncan's career? Hell, he had a miserable 10-27 game seven himself, and he had post-season series so bad, his team couldn't advance. So, PLEASE, no more of these ISOLATED shots at Kobe's career. By the time Kobe hangs it up, Duncan won't be in the conversation at all.

[barbaroi]

no

he should have had more touches. that does not mean shots always. the way the celtics played them....gasol should have been getting the ball more often. kobe was wasting 3 to 5 possessions with awful shots/decisions.

anyone that watched the game would tell you the ball movement was lacking all series for the lakers other than game 6. and that was mainly kobe's fault. he held the ball way too long on the wing and was not decisive.
What, you think I didn't watch the games? The ball movement was difficult because Boston is a damn good defensive team. They weren't just standing there allowing the Lakers to make clean passes. There is a reason why Wade averaged 5.2 TO per game against Boston and Lebron averaged 4.5 TO per game.

[Bladers]

Interesting.

Gasol didn't show up on the road, period.

Western Conf Finals (Away):

Gasol: 15.6 ppg/7.0 rpg
Kobe: 36.6 ppg/8.3 rpg/6.7 apg

NBA Finals (Away):

Gasol: 15.3 ppg/9.3 rpg
Kobe: 33.3 ppg/6.9 rpg/3.3 apg


This, End thread.
Ginobli got owned once again.

[The_Yearning]

Top 5, and higher once he retires. He is already greater than Magic at this point imo.

[ginobli2311]

We have debated this topic before, and I am not going to dig up EVERY argument in Kobe's favor. Kobe DOMINATED those Spurs-Lakers series...

but having said that, though...

you discount Kobe's dominance over Duncan in those 26 games...yet you point out several of Kobe's "failures" in his post-season career. The FACT is, Kobe has been one of the top-3 SCORERS in post-season HISTORY. AND, his SCORING goes WAY beyond those that argue his FG%. When he is basically the ONLY player that CAN score, as was the case in this past Celtic championship series, of course his FG% is going to be lower.

BTW, do you want me to look up ALL of the MANY post-season flops in Duncan's career? Hell, he had a miserable 10-27 game seven himself, and he had post-season series so bad, his team couldn't advance. So, PLEASE, no more of these ISOLATED shots at Kobe's career. By the time Kobe hangs it up, Duncan won't be in the conversation at all.


ok dude. the difference is that when duncan goes 10-27 he is also providing the best defense in the league. there is just a big gap in terms of impact in the game. and again......kobe has played with a ton more talent than duncan has.

so comparing team success is a joke. but go ahead. think what you want. i really don't care debating with someone that wants to use 26 games as an indication of a players' worth when they have both played well over 1 thousand games.

[barbaroi]

LOL. Are you telling me Kobe's impact on defense is equal to Gasol's? Tell me you're not THIS much of a Kobe homer.
:facepalm Where was Gasol's supposed all encompassing defense when Big Baby and KG were taking a shit all over the post defense in games 3-5? Gasol was very good on defending penetration in certain games, but let's not act like Gasol turned into Tim Duncan. I'm not going to single out any single defender in that Finals series because that's not how the games were played. They had to have good defense on all fronts, and that's what they got when they won: great defensive contributions from every player on the floor in a TEAM defensive scheme.

[jlauber]

ok dude. the difference is that when duncan goes 10-27 he is also providing the best defense in the league. there is just a big gap in terms of impact in the game. and again......kobe has played with a ton more talent than duncan has.

so comparing team success is a joke. but go ahead. think what you want. i really don't care debating with someone that wants to use 26 games as an indication of a players' worth when they have both played well over 1 thousand games.

And of course, Kobe being all OVER the floor defensively in HIS game seven is discounted. How about rebounds in those game seven's BTW? Kobe had 15 CLUTCH rebounds, how about Duncan? 11.

So, once again, don't throw ISOLATED instances out there. Kobe has been a BRILLIANT playoff performer...and if ANYONE would know that it, it would be Duncan, Bowen, and the Spurs franchise.

[whatever666]

Kobes legacy will be just the same as if he beat the Pacers in the finals... which means another championship.... somewhat increased legacy ofcourse, its as simple as that, this is a team accomplishment, a championship.

The only way Kobes legacy will be increased individualy is if he outperforms Lebron & Wade in the Finals.... which i highly doubt he will, at least not outperform Lebron, Lebron has outperformed Kobe more than vice versa playing against him... if they meet in the playoffs, Lebron will go on a berserker mode, he wont let that chanse slip away, he is much more hungrier than Kobe ever was for a championship and as you can see Lebron is willing to give up anything for that, his money, his home, his "the man" status and his fans... he wants to dismantle Kobe right here and right now... that is the last step he has to take before he officialy is undebatably the best player in the world right now if he dismantles the Lakers in the Finals.

[barbaroi]

Kobes legacy will be just the same as if he beat the Pacers in the finals... which means another championship.... somewhat increased legacy ofcourse, its as simple as that, this is a team accomplishment, a championship.

The only way Kobes legacy will be increased individualy is if he outperforms Lebron & Wade in the Finals.... which i highly doubt he will, at least not outperform Lebron, Lebron has outperformed Kobe more than vice versa playing against him... if they meet in the playoffs, Lebron will go on a berserker mode, he wont let that chanse slip away, he is much more hungrier than Kobe ever was for a championship.
That's why he quit right? Because he was hungrier?

[All Net]

Kobes legacy will be just the same as if he beat the Pacers in the finals... which means another championship.... somewhat increased legacy ofcourse, its as simple as that, this is a team accomplishment, a championship.

The only way Kobes legacy will be increased individualy is if he outperforms Lebron & Wade in the Finals.... which i highly doubt he will, at least not outperform Lebron, Lebron has outperformed Kobe more than vice versa playing against him... if they meet in the playoffs, Lebron will go on a berserker mode, he wont let that chanse slip away, he is much more hungrier than Kobe ever was for a championship.

Based on what? there aren't many who are more hungry thasn Kobe. Lebron certainly didn't look hungry in the playoffs last year when alot said he quit on his team.

[Bladers]

Kobes legacy will be just the same as if he beat the Pacers in the finals... which means another championship.... somewhat increased legacy ofcourse, its as simple as that, this is a team accomplishment, a championship.

The only way Kobes legacy will be increased individualy is if he outperforms Lebron & Wade in the Finals.... which i highly doubt he will, at least not outperform Lebron, Lebron has outperformed Kobe more than vice versa playing against him... if they meet in the playoffs, Lebron will go on a berserker mode, he wont let that chanse slip away, he is much more hungrier than Kobe ever was for a championship and as you can see Lebron is willing to give up anything for that his money, his home, his stats and his fans...

http://cdn0.knowyourmeme.com/i/000/054/845/original/tumblr_l3tbklDOuD1qb9qwwo1_500.jpg

[branslowski]

:facepalm These Kobe hatred never stop.

Anyway, if Kobe beats da big 3 he would easily and factually be a top 5 player no doubt. 3 finals MVP, and 6 titles.... Would move ahead of Duncan on high iq pals all time list.

[jlauber]

The bottom line is that Kobe has been one of the GREATEST POST-SEASON players in NBA HISTORY. To find fault with some of his Finals performances is just being ridiculous. How many Final series do the Lakers make without Kobe DOMINATING the other playoff rounds.

His regular season stats are sensational, as well. And some of his regular season games have been among the greatest ever. How about an 81 point game.? Or a 62 point game (on 31 shots) in a game he leaves leading an ENTIRE TEAM after three quarters (an NBA Finals team BTW)? The fact is, he has been one of the greatest scorers in both the regular season, and in the post-season, in NBA history.

Another ring vaults him very close to top-5 status. And, as I have said before, barring injury, he has 4-5 seasons left. What are his stats and rings going to look like after that?

[Bring-Your-Js]

The bottom line is that Kobe has been one of the GREATEST POST-SEASON players in NBA HISTORY. To find fault with some of his Finals performances is just being ridiculous. How many Final series do the Lakers make without Kobe DOMINATING the other playoff rounds.

His regular season stats are sensational, as well. And some of his regular season games have been among the greatest ever. How about an 81 point game.? Or a 62 point game (on 31 shots) in a game he leaves leading an ENTIRE TEAM after three quarters (an NBA Finals team BTW)? The fact is, he has been one of the greatest scorers in both the regular season, and in the post-season, in NBA history.

Another ring vaults him very close to top-5 status. And, as I have said before, barring injury, he has 4-5 seasons left. What are his stats and rings going to look like after that?

YouTube search: Kobe Bryant Clutch Playoff Plays

1-hour, 10 minute, 7 part series with isolated segments for 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003-07, 2008, 2009, 2010.

Start the thread and drop the links. See brain particles on the pavement.

Cant paste the links on mobile.

[jlauber]

YouTube search: Kobe Bryant Clutch Playoff Plays

1-hour, 10 minute, 7 part series with isolated segments for 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003-07, 2008, 2009, 2010.

Start the thread and drop the links. See brain particles on the pavement.

Cant paste the links on mobile.

You don't have to convince me...I've seen almost every one of Kobe's BIG shots in the post-season.

I just get so sick-and-tired of those posters here who TRY to diminish his career because of a few games in his Finals career. Once again, without his BRILLIANT play in most of the post-season, the Lakers probably don't make it to four of those titles.

[Jacks3]

:facepalm
Kobe's legacy is dependent on how good a basketball player he is, not how much he wins. If he has another brilliant post-season and a epic Finals he'll move up, but if he wins will playing average or mediocre it won't matter. He'll still be top 10-15 All-Time, which is absolutely amazing considering he's only 31.
But he'll never surpass...
Wilt
Kareem
Shaq
Jordan

[Sarcastic]

In all honesty, if he beats Miami this year he will end up as a top 5 player of all time. He is already top 10, and beating a mini Dream Team would put about as close to the top without getting quite to the top.

He will still be behind Jordan though.

[Bring-Your-Js]

You don't have to convince me...I've seen almost every one of Kobe's BIG shots in the post-season.

I just get so sick-and-tired of those posters here who TRY to diminish his career because of a few games in his Finals career. Once again, without his BRILLIANT play in most of the post-season, the Lakers probably don't make it to four of those titles.

Really though, it's the definitive ***** slap. It's hilariously Absurd.

[Nash]

Honestly Kobe fans, what do you guys want us to say? Kobe won't beat the Heat by himself. I would even say that Pau Gasol is as big as a factor as Kobe is.

[game3524]

Kobes legacy will be just the same as if he beat the Pacers in the finals... which means another championship.... somewhat increased legacy ofcourse, its as simple as that, this is a team accomplishment, a championship.

The only way Kobes legacy will be increased individualy is if he outperforms Lebron & Wade in the Finals.... which i highly doubt he will, at least not outperform Lebron, Lebron has outperformed Kobe more than vice versa playing against him... if they meet in the playoffs, Lebron will go on a berserker mode, he wont let that chanse slip away, he is much more hungrier than Kobe ever was for a championship and as you can see Lebron is willing to give up anything for that, his money, his home, his "the man" status and his fans... he wants to dismantle Kobe right here and right now... that is the last step he has to take before he officialy is undebatably the best player in the world right now if he dismantles the Lakers in the Finals.

He is coward.

He is no where as hungry as Bryant, the guy had the best team record wise and gave up in game 5....

[Nash]

He is coward.

He is no where as hungry as Bryant, the guy had the best team record wise and gave up in game 5....
Yeah, he's not hungry at all for Championships. Thats why he made this risky move, made himself one of the most hated players and risked his brand just cause he's not hungry at all. No no..

[All Net]

Yeah, he's not hungry at all for Championships. Thats why he made this risky move, made himself one of the most hated players and risked his brand just cause he's not hungry at all. No no..

Guys who are hungry show it on the floor, Lebron didn't.

[game3524]

Yeah, he's not hungry at all for Championships. Thats why he made this risky move, made himself one of the most hated players and risked his brand just cause he's not hungry at all. No no..

The guy quit while being on the best team in the East, he is coward and couldn't handle being the guy.

[Nash]

Guys who are hungry show it on the floor, Lebron didn't.
Yeah, cuz for 7 years, all those point, all those awards and back to back MVP titles, he didn't show anything on the floor. He was just planning his move to Miami for 7 years. Thank you for telling me that, Kobe fan.

[All Net]

Yeah, cuz for 7 years, all those point, all those awards and back to back MVP titles, he didn't show anything on the floor. He was just planning his move to Miami for 7 years. Thank you for telling me that, Kobe fan.

Guys who badly want to win would of showed more will to win and not give up in the playoffs. Lebron is a great player but his hungry to win has yet to be proven.

[Nash]

The guy quit while being on the best team in the East, he is coward and couldn't handle being the guy.
Being on the best team in the East? He was the sole reason why they were the best team in the rest. What you don't get is that without him they are a crap team and everybody is going to see that next season. Stop hating.

"Couldn't handle being the guy", I love that logic. So before Kobe got Pau, he couldn't handle being the guy right? But all of a sudden, when they got him Pau, he magically became the guy. Great.

[Nash]

Guys who badly want to win would of showed more will to win and not give up in the playoffs. Lebron is a great player but his hungry to win has yet to be proven.
Check the game against Detroit in 07 and tell me if he isn't hungry.

[Fatstogie]

He is coward.

He is no where as hungry as Bryant, the guy had the best team record wise and gave up in game 5....

Hes a coward? Why?

Kobe had good players on his team.
Jordan had good players on his team.

before it even starts ill just
.
.
.
.... every good player in history who had good players on their team.

Lebrons old team was dead weight. And he carried them for years. Your a coward for not understanding him going where he belongs. With Champions. He served the paupers long enough.


And @ OP im gonna say it like this, they are going to crush the lakers.

[plowking]

Guys who badly want to win would of showed more will to win and not give up in the playoffs. Lebron is a great player but his hungry to win has yet to be proven.

So why did he move to Miami?

[barbaroi]

So why did he move to Miami?
The move to Miami showed that he was scared of losing; it didn't show he wanted to win.

If he had stayed in Cleveland and gotten beat year after year even having HCA, it would have proven he didn't have what it took to win. So he took the gimme instead. That's not the move of a hungry competitor, it's the move of a guy afraid he can't be the man.

[dyna]

I don't understand some people. The people who say the Lakers are heavy favorites over the Heat next season are the same people that say if the Lakers beat the Heat, then Kobe has a case for GOAT.

If Kobe's team is superior to the Heat as a lot of people claim, than why would beating an inferior team like the Heat propel Kobe over Jordan?

[branslowski]

The move to Miami showed that he was scared of losing; it didn't show he wanted to win.

If he had stayed in Cleveland and gotten beat year after year even having HCA, it would have proven he didn't have what it took to win. So he took the gimme instead. That's not the move of a hungry competitor, it's the move of a guy afraid he can't be the man.

Yeah...It could mean that he was scared....But at the sametime it shows that he's putting his personal stats, and accolades, aswell as possibly his legacy, and multiple fans...Just to win a title.

It can go both ways.

[branslowski]

I don't understand some people. The people who say the Lakers are heavy favorites over the Heat next season are the same people that say if the Lakers beat the Heat, then Kobe has a case for GOAT.

If Kobe's team is superior to the Heat as a lot of people claim, than why would beating an inferior team like the Heat propel Kobe over Jordan?

Pretty sure no one said it would get him over Jordan...It would help his legacy...Meaning, move him from 10,9,8...To top 5 or so....There's nothing he can do to become better than Jordan.

I mean...If he wins like 6 finals MVP's which would mean like 9 titles...Ends with more All-NBA, Defensive, All-Star, Total Playoff Points and Reg Season pts...He would have a case...But still prob fall short.

[MaxFly]

Well, first off, the Lakers win more often in spite of Kobe than due to Kobe.


Let's look at this... Over the last three playoff seasons, Bryant's numbers have been...

2007-2008: 30.1/5.7/5.6
2008-2009: 30.2/5.3/5.5
2009-2010: 29.2/6.0/5.5

All together... 29.8/5.7/5.5

Are you saying that more often than not, the Lakers have won regardless of Bryant's play?

[jlauber]

Let's look at this... Over the last three playoff seasons, Bryant's numbers have been...

2007-2008: 30.1/5.7/5.6
2008-2009: 30.2/5.3/5.5
2009-2010: 29.2/6.0/5.5

All together... 29.8/5.7/5.5

Are you saying that more often than not, the Lakers have won regardless of Bryant's play?

Exactly. Let's face reality here...

The Lakers won despite Kobe, just as the Bulls won their titles despite the play of MJ, and the Celtics won their titles despite the play of Russell. Can you imagine how much greater those teams would have been without those clowns?

[plowking]

The move to Miami showed that he was scared of losing; it didn't show he wanted to win.

If he had stayed in Cleveland and gotten beat year after year even having HCA, it would have proven he didn't have what it took to win. So he took the gimme instead. That's not the move of a hungry competitor, it's the move of a guy afraid he can't be the man.

Of course...

Lebron's never had a team like Kobe or Pierce or Shaq and now that he does, we'll see how he fares.

[barbaroi]

Of course...

Lebron's never had a team like Kobe or Pierce or Shaq and now that he does, we'll see how he fares.
Consecutive #1 seeds isn't good enough for him? People always sell the Cavs short I feel. They had very good players in place around Lebron (who else had 3 high volume 40+% 3 point shooters?), and were a dominant defensive team under Mike Brown.

[jlauber]

Consecutive #1 seeds isn't good enough for him? People always sell the Cavs short I feel. They had very good players in place around Lebron (who else had 3 high volume 40+% 3 point shooters?), and were a dominant defensive team under Mike Brown.

Well, it would have probably helped had any of them played decently in the playoffs. The only player that contributed anything in the playoffs was an over-the-hill Shaq.

[plowking]

Consecutive #1 seeds isn't good enough for him? People always sell the Cavs short I feel. They had very good players in place around Lebron (who else had 3 high volume 40+% 3 point shooters?), and were a dominant defensive team under Mike Brown.

They have great defensive players, and that's about it. The only decent guys offensively on that team are Delonte West and Shaq.
The point of basketball is to score, if you can't do that, you're screwed.

Boston was better than Cleveland at every position bar SF.
Same goes with Orlando.
Same goes with the Lakers - minus PG.
How about the Spurs?

There's a few other teams as well that this could be said about in comparison to the Cavs. And there are even more that were more well rounded and just better than the Cavs as a team. I don't think you get how much Lebron carried that team.

[PowerGlove]

Consecutive #1 seeds isn't good enough for him? People always sell the Cavs short I feel. They had very good players in place around Lebron (who else had 3 high volume 40+% 3 point shooters?), and were a dominant defensive team under Mike Brown.

They didn't even have an offense.

[imdaman99]

They have great defensive players, and that's about it. The only decent guys offensively on that team are Delonte West and Shaq.
The point of basketball is to score, if you can't do that, you're screwed.

Boston was better than Cleveland at every position bar SF.
Same goes with Orlando.
Same goes with the Lakers - minus PG.
How about the Spurs?

There's a few other teams as well that this could be said about in comparison to the Cavs. And there are even more that were more well rounded and just better than the Cavs as a team. I don't think you get how much Lebron carried that team.
:lol Dude, you used to kill Lebron as much as anyone on here. I understand, I would have grown to defend him too if he came on the Knicks. But he didn't so fcuk that guy. Pussyass check my stats lol

As for legacy, who really gives a damn about it, other than dudes that want Kobe to somehow rise to become the GOAT. I am one of those people but I don't think it'll happen. There is no shame in becoming the 2nd GOAT though, which is reachable.

[Rambis]

The only way Kobes legacy will be increased individualy is if he outperforms Lebron & Wade in the Finals.... which i highly doubt he will, at least not outperform Lebron, Lebron has outperformed Kobe more than vice versa playing against him... if they meet in the playoffs, Lebron will go on a berserker mode, he wont let that chanse slip away, he is much more hungrier than Kobe ever was for a championship and as you can see Lebron is willing to give up anything for that, his money, his home, his "the man" status and his fans... he wants to dismantle Kobe right here and right now... that is the last step he has to take before he officialy is undebatably the best player in the world right now if he dismantles the Lakers in the Finals.

Really? So he wasn't hungry against the Celtics? I get it! NOW he's hungry.

Thanks for the clarification.

[Rambis]

Yeah...It could mean that he was scared....But at the sametime it shows that he's putting his personal stats, and accolades, aswell as possibly his legacy, and multiple fans...Just to win a title.

It can go both ways.

I don't think LeBron thought he would lose fans. He's so narcissistic that he figured everyone in Cleveland would still take him back -- look at his quotes from today. How it would be a "great story" if he were to come back.

I will laugh my ass off if they win but DWade wins FMVP... bye bye branding.

[shawbryant]

Top 3

[NBASTATMAN]

I think most would agree Kobe is in that 9-10 range at the moment. Would beating Lebron and Wade in the finals jump him up to maybe the top 5 if he manages to beat these two superstars while winning his 6th championship and winning his 3rd finals MVP along with completing a Lakers 3-peat. A lot are expecting L.A to beat Miami due to the size factor but does Kobe leading Lakers to another 3-peat jump him even higher?


It would help but I think Boston is still better than Miami.. Especially since Shaq has joined them.. And I don't like the role players Miami has alongside the big three.. Plus the LAKERS are fielding what may be the best team 1-12 TEAM THE LEAGUE HAS SEEN IN A LONG TIME....


I am rooting for THE SPURS... LOL... I guess that means they will wind up losing in the first round... If I had to bet money than bOSTON VS LAKERS would be my bet for the finals.... With Boston winning if they are healthy...To me Shaq would make a huge difference vs the Lakers...

[NBASTATMAN]

Let's look at this... Over the last three playoff seasons, Bryant's numbers have been...

2007-2008: 30.1/5.7/5.6
2008-2009: 30.2/5.3/5.5
2009-2010: 29.2/6.0/5.5

All together... 29.8/5.7/5.5

Are you saying that more often than not, the Lakers have won regardless of Bryant's play?


Kobe has been great in the playoffs besides the Finals in the past three seasons.. I think the rougher play in the east slows down Kobe's game but he has usually played smart once the playoffs begin...


Kobe, in my opinion has hurt his teams' REGULAR SEASON record with his play in the regular season.. I think him wanting to win the MVP too much hurt their record last year.....Gasol showed he was a great player when Kobe went out...

[Jacks3]

2007-2008: 30.1/5.7/5.6
2008-2009: 30.2/5.3/5.5
2009-2010: 29.2/6.0/5.5

All together... 29.8/5.7/5.5


Holy crap. :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Andrei89]

Holy crap. :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Pretend like you didn't know that

there are 2 options now

1: you pretended you didn't know that

2: you didn't know that which immediatly makes u a fake fanboy

[barbaroi]

Kobe has been great in the playoffs besides the Finals in the past three seasons.. I think the rougher play in the east slows down Kobe's game but he has usually played smart once the playoffs begin...


Kobe, in my opinion has hurt his teams' REGULAR SEASON record with his play in the regular season.. I think him wanting to win the MVP too much hurt their record last year.....Gasol showed he was a great player when Kobe went out...
:rolleyes: Yea, it wasn't Gasol missing 15 games, or Bynum being gone for half of each season, or Kobe playing with a broken finger or a rolled ankle or anything else like that that stopped the Lakers in the regular season. Nope it was Kobe gunning for MVP that did them in to the tune of three straight #1 seeds. Yup damn that Kobe.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Kobe's legacy if he beats Miami will be exactly the same as if he beat any other Finalist this year. He still has the more talented team top to bottom, along with the most dominant frontcourt. Miami simply cannot match up with LA's size and length, and that's why you can be sure that LA will be the odds-on favorite to win the title this year regardless of the Lebron/Wade/Bosh triumvirate. Go check what Vegas says and let me know who the favorite is.

[Fatal9]

Go check what Vegas says and let me know who the favorite is.
Miami is at 7/5 (ridiculous!!). Lakers at 7/2. Miami is the huge favorite on every single betting line. You should bet some serious $ n LA if you're so sure. Even if they don't win, you get to watch Kobe lose, which I'm sure you'd find enjoyable :confusedshrug:

[barbaroi]

Kobe's legacy if he beats Miami will be exactly the same as if he beat any other Finalist this year. He still has the more talented team top to bottom, along with the most dominant frontcourt. Miami simply cannot match up with LA's size and length, and that's why you can be sure that LA will be the odds-on favorite to win the title this year regardless of the Lebron/Wade/Bosh triumvirate. Go check what Vegas says and let me know who the favorite is.
Bodog has the Heat at 7/4 with the Lakers at 11/4 :confusedshrug: . Pretty sure Vegas also has Miami as the favorite atm.

[stickfigure87]

Kobe's legacy if he beats Miami will be exactly the same as if he beat any other Finalist this year. He still has the more talented team top to bottom, along with the most dominant frontcourt. Miami simply cannot match up with LA's size and length, and that's why you can be sure that LA will be the odds-on favorite to win the title this year regardless of the Lebron/Wade/Bosh triumvirate. Go check what Vegas says and let me know who the favorite is.

vegas says miami.

if kobe has 6, he's top 3 (mj and russell)

[barbaroi]

vegas says miami.

if kobe has 6, he's top 3 (mj and russell)
I'd slot him in at 4 behind MJ,Kareem, and Russell

[OldSchoolBBall]

We'll see what they a month or two into the season, then, It's all hype right now. Can't really set good odds on a product no one has seen play. If they're still the favorite by mid-December, I'll be shocked.

[imdaman99]

LOL so the Lakers are STILL the most talented team. Gotta love this guy, will never give credit. Its a personal vendetta for him, gotta appreciate his dedication to it <3

[Fatal9]

We'll see what they a month or two into the season, then, It's all hype right now. Can't really set good odds on a product no one has seen play. If they're still the favorite by mid-December, I'll be shocked.
Bet some money if you're so sure. Sounds like easy money judging by your analysis.

[Jacks3]

lol @ the Lakers being more talented than the Heat. lol @ using the phrase "top to bottom" after going on and on about how depth doesn't matter in the playoffs in response to posters questioning the Lakers bench. :roll:

[Jacks3]

Pretend like you didn't know that

there are 2 options now

1: you pretended you didn't know that

2: you didn't know that which immediatly makes u a fake fanboy
:confusedshrug:

[OldSchoolBBall]

LOL so the Lakers are STILL the most talented team. Gotta love this guy, will never give credit. Its a personal vendetta for him, gotta appreciate his dedication to it <3

Top to bottom, they're the most talented, yes. Top 3 Miami is the most talented, obviously. On top of that, size wins ballgames, and I refuse to believe that even a dominant perimeter tandem (and a soft big man like Bosh) can beat a dominant frontcourt like Odom/Bynum/Gasol (plus Ratliffe defensively now). We'll see I suppose.

[OldSchoolBBall]

lol @ the Lakers being more talented than the Heat. lol @ using the phrase "top to bottom" after going on and on about how depth doesn't matter in the playoffs in response to posters questioning the Lakers bench. :roll:

By "top to bottom," I mean 1-6 or 1-7 tops, not 1-10. People like you were complaining about LA's #7-10 players, which is what I was speaking to when I made those remarks. And I stand by that. A team's top 6 or 7 (max) players being great is more important than their top 6 or 7 being less great but having a better 7-10.

[1987_Lakers]

I currently have him at #9. If he wins league MVP & beats Miami in the Finals he will leap to the #7 spot.

[Poochymama]

:facepalm
Kobe's legacy is dependent on how good a basketball player he is, not how much he wins. If he has another brilliant post-season and a epic Finals he'll move up, but if he wins will playing average or mediocre it won't matter. He'll still be top 10-15 All-Time, which is absolutely amazing considering he's only 31.
But he'll never surpass...
Wilt
Kareem
Shaq
Jordan

What the heck??? By far the most logical thing I've ever seen this kid post. Did someone hack his account???

[Jacks3]

Well, I was correct. The Lakers bench damn near lost games by themselves in the WCF and Finals. Miami is still more talented though.

[Poochymama]

Well, I was correct. The Lakers bench damn near lost games by themselves in the WCF and Finals. Miami is still more talented though.

I didn't say you weren't correct, though I'd say Kobe is already top 10 and will probably be top 6 if he beats Miama while putting up good numbers.

But didn't you say in another thread that Jordan was no better than OJ Mayo?

[MaxFly]

Incidentally, I love how some posters are just dismissing Bird left and right in this thread.

[Vicp493]

Incidentally, I love how some posters are just dismissing Bird left and right in this thread.

Bird's peak was short (2-3 season), and the rest of his career, while great, wasn't good enough for me to put him in my top 5. I'd put Jordan, Johnson, O'neal, Abdul-Jabbar, Olajuwon, Duncan, Bryant, Robinson above him, in that order.

I'd also probably consider 3-4 other players above him.

And that's just in the modern era. I'm not counting players like Wilt, Russell, etc..

[MaxFly]

Bird's peak was short (2-3 season), and the rest of his career, while great, wasn't good enough for me to put him in my top 5. I'd put Jordan, Johnson, O'neal, Abdul-Jabbar, Olajuwon, Duncan, Bryant, Robinson above him, in that order.

I'd also probably consider 3-4 other players above him.

And that's just in the modern era. I'm not counting players like Wilt, Russell, etc..

So........... Olajuwan, Duncan, Robinson and Shaq over Bird on all time lists... Well, rveryone is entitled to their own opinions... but :facepalm

[MaxFly]

Kobe, in my opinion has hurt his teams' REGULAR SEASON record with his play in the regular season.. I think him wanting to win the MVP too much hurt their record last year.....Gasol showed he was a great player when Kobe went out...

This is interesting.... When did you determine he was trying to win the MVP award?

[Doranku]

The same as it will be when his career ends. On the outside looking in on the top 5. I don't see any plausible way that Kobe squeezes into fifth or higher all time.

[okayabc123]

A ring this year, Kobe sniffs the top 7, and I have to believe Kobe is too much of a NBA historian to know that he has the chance to beat out MJ in terms of # of rings. Kobe has the teammates to win at least 2 more, especially if we are just seeing Gasol at his prime and with Bynum healthy, there is no reason not to believe Lakers are contending for the next 2-4 years.

I think beating or losing to Miami isn't going to make Kobe's legacy THAT much better or worse. I think Kobe can shut fans up if he has a real MVP type series, putting up great numbers, then there is absolutely no doubt Kobe is in his own class above Lebron and Wade.

But knowing Kobe, he knows his place in the NBA history, and it's about more than just beating Lebron and Wade. It's tying MJ and having the opportunity to have more rings than MJ. I think that's ultimately the motivation for the guy. In fact, I think Kobe has always believe he is better than Lebron and Wade so he probably doesn't even care too much who he sees in the Finals next year.

[SinJackal]

As long as Kobe doesn't take 30+ shots a game, the Lakers have a chance.

From LakersNation analyzing stats for 2008-2009 season:


** In games when Kobe takes 30 or more shots, the Lakers are 3-5

** In games when Kobe takes 20 or less shots, the Lakers are 27-1

** Kobe is averaging 20 shots per game in the Lakers’ 48 victories

** Kobe is averaging 27.3 shots per game in their 12 losses.


So, as long as he keeps his FGAs down to around 20. . .they should have a good chance. Lakers' bigs will be way too much for Chris Bosh, Father Time, and Snoop Dogg to deal with.

That is, if both those two teams both make it to the finals, which I sincerely doubt will happen. This year's not the Heat's year imo.



there is no reason not to believe Lakers are contending for the next 2-4 years.

4 years from now their core's age would be like 36. 2 years, sure. 4? No.

[branslowski]

As long as Kobe doesn't take 30+ shots a game, the Lakers have a chance.

From LakersNation analyzing stats for 2008-2009 season:



So, as long as he keeps his FGAs down to around 20. . .they should have a good chance. Lakers' bigs will be way too much for Chris Bosh, Father Time, and Snoop Dogg to deal with.

That is, if both those two teams both make it to the finals, which I sincerely doubt will happen. This year's not the Heat's year imo.




4 years from now their core's age would be like 36. 2 years, sure. 4? No.


Bro...I really don't want an epic Kobe hate flame war debate...But as a Lakers fan and watching the games in the last 3yrs where Kobe takes a bunch of shots....I can tell you that those numbers a flawd..

Because...In MOST of the games where he hoist up tons of shots...It happens when his team is playing garbage...Thus he tries to go into that second half "shoot it untill I bring my team back" and it either gets them up, or puts them in an deeper hole...I mean dude can have 17fga going into the 4th..We would have the lead...Then our bench gives it away...Phil brings Kobe in, and Kobe has to try and get us back in it..Thus taking about 10-11 shots in the 4th...And in games where he doesn't shoot that many...It's because he, along with his teamates played great from the start and whind up blowing the other team out, thus Kobe sitting for the 4th.

Now, there's been a few games where he just came out Chucking in the 1st and we lost...Not gonna deny that...But mostly, Kobe comes out passing..And when he starts shooting crazy, it's mostly due to his teamates playing with no soul, and him having to try and bring us back in the 4th.

Every LAKERS fan who has watched every game knows this happens.

Just had to place some perspective to that stat.

[plowking]

Bird's peak was short (2-3 season), and the rest of his career, while great, wasn't good enough for me to put him in my top 5. I'd put Jordan, Johnson, O'neal, Abdul-Jabbar, Olajuwon, Duncan, Bryant, Robinson above him, in that order.

I'd also probably consider 3-4 other players above him.

And that's just in the modern era. I'm not counting players like Wilt, Russell, etc..

Holy shit! You know nothing about baskeball! :oldlol:

So in Larry Bird's peak (considering he won 3 MVP's in a row) he was only super duper awesome in 2 or 3 of them apparently? :oldlol:
Bird was top 3 in MVP voting for 8 years in a row, and if you count his rookie season where he was 4th, he was top 4 for 9 years in MVP voting...
All NBA first team since his rookie season and for 9 consecutive seasons...

I mean, really... Did you expect anyone to believe what you were saying?

[G-Funk]

Bro...I really don't want an epic Kobe hate flame war debate...But as a Lakers fan and watching the games in the last 3yrs where Kobe takes a bunch of shots....I can tell you that those numbers a flawd..

Because...In MOST of the games where he hoist up tons of shots...It happens when his team is playing garbage...Thus he tries to go into that second half "shoot it untill I bring my team back" and it either gets them up, or puts them in an deeper hole...I mean dude can have 17fga going into the 4th..We would have the lead...Then our bench gives it away...Phil brings Kobe in, and Kobe has to try and get us back in it..Thus taking about 10-11 shots in the 4th...And in games where he doesn't shoot that many...It's because he, along with his teamates played great from the start and whind up blowing the other team out, thus Kobe sitting for the 4th.

Now, there's been a few games where he just came out Chucking in the 1st and we lost...Not gonna deny that...But mostly, Kobe comes out passing..And when he starts shooting crazy, it's mostly due to his teamates playing with no soul, and him having to try and bring us back in the 4th.

Every LAKERS fan who has watched every game knows this happens.

Just had to place some perspective to that stat.



110% correct. This is a fact.

[MaxFly]

Holy shit! You know nothing about baskeball! :oldlol:

So in Larry Bird's peak (considering he won 3 MVP's in a row) he was only super duper awesome in 2 or 3 of them apparently? :oldlol:
Bird was top 3 in MVP voting for 8 years in a row, and if you count his rookie season where he was 4th, he was top 4 for 9 years in MVP voting...
All NBA first team since his rookie season and for 9 consecutive seasons...

I mean, really... Did you expect anyone to believe what you were saying?

He did...

[Kurosawa0]

My question is this, what if the Lakers beat the Heat this season, but then lose to them in 2012? What does that do to Kobe's legacy?

[catch24]

My question is this, what if the Lakers beat the Heat this season, but then lose to them in 2012? What does that do to Kobe's legacy?

Really depends on how he plays individually.

[Kurosawa0]

Really depends on how he plays individually.

True, but just hypothetically I think whichever teams wins the latest series tends to win the argument.

[Vicp493]

Holy shit! You know nothing about baskeball! :oldlol:

So in Larry Bird's peak (considering he won 3 MVP's in a row) he was only super duper awesome in 2 or 3 of them apparently? :oldlol:
Bird was top 3 in MVP voting for 8 years in a row, and if you count his rookie season where he was 4th, he was top 4 for 9 years in MVP voting...
All NBA first team since his rookie season and for 9 consecutive seasons...

I mean, really... Did you expect anyone to believe what you were saying?

Ooooh, subjective awards and subjective honors. Impressive.

/not.

[Samvt]

Everyone will forget about kobe.

Lakers front court will be remembered forever.

[WADE MONEY]

Intelligence has nothing to do with opinion.

intelligence is usually correlated with evaluating facts in a correct way. Evaluating facts in a correct way is usually related to having a more well-informed opinion.

[The_Yearning]

True, but just hypothetically I think whichever teams wins the latest series tends to win the argument.

What if the Heat fail to win it this year, then D-Wade suddenly gets injured the following year and Heat fails to make it to the finals?

[TheLogo]

If Kobe beats Miami he will just move up on the all time list. Beating Miami isn't going to suddenly push him to #3 or #2.

You guys have to remember that Miami and it's players haven't done jack in this league besides Wade. Some consider Lebron and Bosh losers.

Beating Miami would be the same as beating any other team in the Finals.

[crisoner]

Kobe's legacy is pretty much set in the top 10 list as of now IMO.

He get's 6 rings I say he moves in top 5.
But really it depends how he also performs next year and how he wins in the Finals. If Kobe get's seven....and wins four in a row something not even Jordan as the main option did not do (probably would of if he didn't retire the first time) then Kobe might have a shot at being number 2.

First things first...win number 6.

[Bring-Your-Js]

Kobe's legacy is pretty much set in the top 10 list as of now IMO.

He get's 6 rings I say he moves in top 5.
But really it depends how he also performs next year and how he wins in the Finals. If Kobe get's seven....and wins four in a row something not even Jordan as the main option did not do (probably would of if he didn't retire the first time) then Kobe might have a shot at being number 2.

First things first...win number 6.

I'm hardly in disagreement with the general point of your post but I just wanted to address the bolded.

"Would of" isn't a logical argument in my view. Conversely, if Kobe had averaged 22.9 FGA per game as Jordan did over his career rather than the 19.2 he has, his ppg numbers would of been about equal. If Del Harris hadn't brought him off the bench his first two seasons, Kobe would of developed more quickly and posted better numbers. If Kobe had a perimeter player the caliber of Scottie Pippen and didn't have to facilitate the offense as he's done and got to play full time wing for the better part of his career, he would of won 10 scoring titles.

^ None of the above pass for acceptable to people in most cases, regardless of "would of" and "what if".

[TheLogo]

Kobe's legacy is pretty much set in the top 10 list as of now IMO.

He get's 6 rings I say he moves in top 5.
But really it depends how he also performs next year and how he wins in the Finals. If Kobe get's seven....and wins four in a row something not even Jordan as the main option did not do (probably would of if he didn't retire the first time) then Kobe might have a shot at being number 2.

First things first...win number 6.

win another first and congrats on 10k posts.

[ginobli2311]

I'm hardly in disagreement with the general point of your post but I just wanted to address the bolded.

"Would of" isn't a logical argument in my view. Conversely, if Kobe had averaged 22.9 FGA per game as Jordan did over his career rather than the 19.2 he has, his ppg numbers would of been about equal. If Del Harris hadn't brought him off the bench his first two seasons, Kobe would of developed more quickly and posted better numbers. If Kobe had a perimeter player the caliber of Scottie Pippen and didn't have to facilitate the offense as he's done and got to play full time wing for the better part of his career, he would of won 10 scoring titles.

^ None of the above pass for acceptable to people in most cases, regardless of "would of" and "what if".

the problem with your assertion is that kobe was not ready to play in the playoffs or regular season big minutes his first 2 years. he would have been awful playing a lot of minutes and it actually would have stunted his growth. trust me....if he was ready....they would have played.

the second problem is that kobe would have much less titles playing with a "scottie pippen"....in fact, i don't see how kobe could have won even 1 title in his first 8 years without either playing with shaq or duncan. so that point holds no water at all.

the third problem is that if kobe shot the ball 23 times a game for his career....he would have shot around 42% from the field. and there is not way in hell any coach is going to allow that unless he was playing on terrible teams. so if kobe wanted to win (which he clearly does)...he had to shoot less because he simply isn't good enough offensively to take 23 shots a game and score efficiently enough.

you can't have it both ways. kobe would not have won 1 ring if he didn't have shaq or duncan for his first 8 years....kobe was simply not good enough to be the number 1 option on a title team during that time. yes....his ppg would definitely have gone up....but his efficiency would have gone down as well.

i do agree that playing "what if" is sometimes stupid. and i certainly don't think that jordan needs to be credited with another title because he retired. but if you do play the "what if" game.....at least look at it from both sides.

[KenneBell]

the third problem is that if kobe shot the ball 23 times a game for his career....he would have shot around 42% from the field. and there is not way in hell any coach is going to allow that unless he was playing on terrible teams. he had to shoot less because he simply isn't good enough offensively to take 23 shots a game and score efficiently enough.

In the seasons Kobe has put up more than 22 shots per game, his FG% was 45-46%. Don't know where you got 42% from.

He would have probably been putting up 20 shots a game by his 3rd-4th year had he started on the Hornets instead of 5th IMO.

[lakers_forever]

The Lakers may beat the Heat. Kobe is not the Lakers. He's their best player (arguably best in the league), but in the end he is just one player. It's still a team sport, haters and stans.

[sixer6ad]

Just a b-ball fan, but Kobe took me over the top this year. He has many reasons to win the respect of fans, but this year, for some reason, won me. I think it is because I realized the merits of a true leader vs. the merits of someone I was really hoping would become a true leader.

[ukplayer4]

Any analyst will tell you the Lakers are still the favorites. No combination of wing players can battle against LA's ridiculous frontcourt rotation.



this.

[Poochymama]

The Lakers may beat the Heat. Kobe is not the Lakers. He's their best player (arguably best in the league), but in the end he is just one player. It's still a team sport, haters and stans.

This, why does the lakers winning another championship(notice I didn't say Kobe) suddenly vault Kobe over players who are obviously better than him? Kobe is in the top 10 already, no amount of championships is going to get him past #5.

Sure he may win more championships than guys like Wilt, Kareem, and Jordan but all three of those players were simply better players than Kobe.

People on this board value TEAM championships WAY too much when trying to determine who the best PLAYER is. Had Kobe played for the Wizards his entire career and won 0 championships, this same board wouldn't even have him in the top 15, even though he's the exact same player who's rated 7-10 by most posters as a laker.

Why does playing for a better team make you a better player? Players should be judged by how well THEY play, not how well their TEAM plays.

[jlauber]

the problem with your assertion is that kobe was not ready to play in the playoffs or regular season big minutes his first 2 years. he would have been awful playing a lot of minutes and it actually would have stunted his growth. trust me....if he was ready....they would have played.

the second problem is that kobe would have much less titles playing with a "scottie pippen"....in fact, i don't see how kobe could have won even 1 title in his first 8 years without either playing with shaq or duncan. so that point holds no water at all.

the third problem is that if kobe shot the ball 23 times a game for his career....he would have shot around 42% from the field. and there is not way in hell any coach is going to allow that unless he was playing on terrible teams. so if kobe wanted to win (which he clearly does)...he had to shoot less because he simply isn't good enough offensively to take 23 shots a game and score efficiently enough.

you can't have it both ways. kobe would not have won 1 ring if he didn't have shaq or duncan for his first 8 years....kobe was simply not good enough to be the number 1 option on a title team during that time. yes....his ppg would definitely have gone up....but his efficiency would have gone down as well.

i do agree that playing "what if" is sometimes stupid. and i certainly don't think that jordan needs to be credited with another title because he retired. but if you do play the "what if" game.....at least look at it from both sides.

I don't always agree with your takes, and I don't completely agree on this one, either...BUT, I do appalud your arguments. There is no reason for someone as knowledgeable as yourself to have a negative rep here.

[jlauber]

This, why does the lakers winning another championship(notice I didn't say Kobe) suddenly vault Kobe over players who are obviously better than him? Kobe is in the top 10 already, no amount of championships is going to get him past #5.

Sure he may win more championships than guys like Wilt, Kareem, and Jordan but all three of those players were simply better players than Kobe.

People on this board value TEAM championships WAY too much when trying to determine who the best PLAYER is. Had Kobe played for the Wizards his entire career and won 0 championships, this same board wouldn't even have him in the top 15, even though he's the exact same player who's rated 7-10 by most posters as a laker.

Why does playing for a better team make you a better player? Players should be judged by how well THEY play, not how well their TEAM plays.

I mostly agree with you on this. It is a TEAM game, not one-on-one. Still, there HAS to be value in LEADING teams to championships, too. After all, the game is still about winning. Russell's play is very under-rated here, and I believe that too many casual fans look at his offensive numbers and automatically assume that he was a "Ben Wallace" type of player. Nothing could be further from the truth. He did whatever it took to win. If he had to average 18 ppg and 24 rpg, he did. If he had to put up a 30-40 in a game seven (which included 14-17 from the FT line), he did. If he had to average 18 ppg and shoot .702 in the Finals, he did. If he had to lead his team in scoring in a Finals' series, he did. And that gets back to the point of LEADING a team to a title.

I am not naive enough to believe that Russell could have led the 62-63 Warriors to even a winning season, much less a title...but when he was given the right personnel, he LED them to a title. Too often we just take these things for granted. The bottom line is that he LED his teams to 27 playoff series wins in 29 tries, and 11 rings in 13 seasons (as well as two straight NCAA titles, and a Gold Medal.) All of that HAS to count for something in these GOAT discussions.

[ginobli2311]

In the seasons Kobe has put up more than 22 shots per game, his FG% was 45-46%. Don't know where you got 42% from.

He would have probably been putting up 20 shots a game by his 3rd-4th year had he started on the Hornets instead of 5th IMO.

one season is a huge difference from a career. kobe shoots 45% from the field on 19 shots for his career.

if he were to shoot 4 more times per game. that is 21% more shots per game.....his fg% would drop. that is a simple fact. there is no debating this. why? simply because those extra 4 shots would not be of the same quality as the others. they would be most likely forces.

all evidence supports me on this. if kobe can only make 45% of 19 shots.....no way in hell he is making over 42 or 43% of 23 shots. think about that.....he would be taking 21% more shots per game. that is a ton.

my guess is that we would see something around 10 of 23 per game averages for kobe.

[ginobli2311]

I mostly agree with you on this. It is a TEAM game, not one-on-one. Still, there HAS to be value in LEADING teams to championships, too. After all, the game is still about winning. Russell's play is very under-rated here, and I believe that too many casual fans look at his offensive numbers and automatically assume that he was a "Ben Wallace" type of player. Nothing could be further from the truth. He did whatever it took to win. If he had to average 18 ppg and 24 rpg, he did. If he had to put up a 30-40 in a game seven (which included 14-17 from the FT line), he did. If he had to average 18 ppg and shoot .702 in the Finals, he did. If he had to lead his team in scoring in a Finals' series, he did. And that gets back to the point of LEADING a team to a title.

I am not naive enough to believe that Russell could have led the 62-63 Warriors to even a winning season, much less a title...but when he was given the right personnel, he LED them to a title. Too often we just take these things for granted. The bottom line is that he LED his teams to 27 playoff series wins in 29 tries, and 11 rings in 13 seasons (as well as two straight NCAA titles, and a Gold Medal.) All of that HAS to count for something in these GOAT discussions.

totally agree. but there has to be varying degrees of credit for leading a team to a title. for example....wade winning and playing amazing in 06 has to yield him more credit than kobe winning this year while playing two subpar series and a sub par finals with the most loaded team in the league.

i feel like that is where people on here really struggle. they equate shaq/kobe title in 02 to duncan's in 03. nothing could be further from the truth. what duncan did in 03 blows that out of the water.

all titles should not yield the same amount of credit for the best player. kg doesn't deserve the same amount of credit that hakeem does....etc.

that part of the ISH thinking really needs to improve.

[branslowski]

Ginobli...Im pretty sure Kobe has been shooting around 45-46% while being the Number 1 Option...Which is over a 6 yr span...In which he has shot the ball more than 19 times per game.

[barbaroi]

one season is a huge difference from a career. kobe shoots 45% from the field on 19 shots for his career.

if he were to shoot 4 more times per game. that is 21% more shots per game.....his fg% would drop. that is a simple fact. there is no debating this. why? simply because those extra 4 shots would not be of the same quality as the others. they would be most likely forces.

all evidence supports me on this. if kobe can only make 45% of 19 shots.....no way in hell he is making over 42 or 43% of 23 shots. think about that.....he would be taking 21% more shots per game. that is a ton.

my guess is that we would see something around 10 of 23 per game averages for kobe.
None of the evidence supports you on this. 5 seasons he has averaged 22+ FGA, and in every one of those he has shot 45+%.

[ginobli2311]

Ginobli...Im pretty sure Kobe has been shooting around 45-46% while being the Number 1 Option...Which is over a 6 yr span...In which he has shot the ball more than 19 times per game.

and your point is? we are talking about kobe shooting 23 times a game. are you saying his career fg% would not drop if kobe averaged 23 shots a game? keep in mind that is a 21% increase in shots per game.

now....kobe has only shot 23 or more shots per game in 2 seasons. it stands to logic and reason that kobe's fg% would take a hit if he took 21% more shots per game....especially if he was playing in meaningful games on winning teams like he has throughout his career.

am i missing something?

[ginobli2311]

None of the evidence supports you on this. 5 seasons he has averaged 22+ FGA, and in every one of those he has shot 45+%.

and he's played 14 seasons.

so what are you people saying?

are you honestly saying that kobe could take 21% more shots per game and maintain his fg% for his career?

i'm sorry....but that is just idiotic.

[barbaroi]

and he's played 14 seasons.

so what are you people saying?

are you honestly saying that kobe could take 21% more shots per game and maintain his fg% for his career?

i'm sorry....but that is just idiotic.
First of all, 22 is only 15% more than 19. Second of all, he's shown that he can do it, so you have no argument whatsoever.

[ginobli2311]

First of all, 22 is only 15% more than 19. Second of all, he's shown that he can do it, so you have no argument whatsoever.

we were talking about 23 dude...not 22. first of all.

and just because he has shown he can do it in a few seasons of his career does not mean he could average that for his career.

how do you not see this.

do you not understand basic math? imagine a rookie kobe having to shoot 15 shots rather than 6. or a 2nd year kobe having to shoot 20 shots rather than 12. and so on and so on.

i just doesn't work.

again....we are talking about CAREER...not prime....not individual seasons. CAREER dude.....CAREER.

[Sarcastic]

I remember seeing a stat last year that if Kobe were to hit his next 3000 shots or something, he would still have a lower shooting % than Jordan.

[branslowski]

Ginobli...I understand what your saying from a career standpoint...But if you wanna put things in perspective...He has BEEN shooting more than 19shot pg for 6yr span as the Num 1 option and is shooting around 45-46%...And basically, if we wanna use an "If" he shoots about 23 shots...Then we have to assume he would be the num 1 option as he is now in-which he is shooting about 45-46% while shooting more than 19 shots pg.

I understand you dislike Bryant...But I really fail to see how you cannot put these 2 things together.


Anyway, arguing "if's" can go nowhere.

[barbaroi]

I remember seeing a stat last year that if Kobe were to hit his next 3000 shots or something, he would still have a lower shooting % than Jordan.
Then you remember a false stat, because he would only have had to have hit 834 more, or about 59 per season , or about .95 per game to have averaged the same FG%.

[ginobli2311]

Ginobli...I understand what your saying from a career standpoint...But if you wanna put things in perspective...He has BEEN shooting more than 19shot pg for 6yr span as the Num 1 option and is shooting around 45-46%...And basically, if we wanna use an "If" he shoots about 23 shots...Then we have to assume he would be the num 1 option as he is now in-which he is shooting about 45-46% while shooting more than 19 shots pg.

I understand you dislike Bryant...But I really fail to see how you cannot put these 2 things together.


Anyway, arguing "if's" can go nowhere.

this has nothing to do with kobe actually. it can be used for any player.

it is absurd to think that kobe could maintain his fg% while taking 21% more shots for his career. its really not possible.

you can't pick 6 years out of 14 as evidence.

i can cherry pick a number of years he would have had no chance to shoot even 40% while taking at least 23 shots a game.

now....if you want to talk about his prime only....then yes....kobe could shoot 23 shots a game and maintain around 45% from the field.

but again...we are talking about his entire career....not just his prime.

for example. kobe would have had to average around 15 shots as a rookie. he shot 41.7%.....if he took 9 more shots per game....at best he would shoot 38%.

same can be applied to his 2nd year. he shot 42.8 percent. his next 2 years he only shot 15.6 shots and 17.9 respectively. in 04 he shot 18 shots at 43.8%.....if he had to take 5 more shots per game that would take a hit as well.

in 05 he shot 43.3% on 20 shots. increase that by 3 and it drops again.

sorry dude....i just don't see where you are coming from at all.

so you think jordan could have shot 27 shots per game and maintained his averages? LOL

[Sarcastic]

Then you remember a false stat, because he would only have had to have hit 834 more, or about 59 per season , or about .95 per game to have averaged the same FG%.

Maybe the number was 1000 or something. I forgot the exact number. Point was that it was an impossible number of consecutive shots that Bryant would have to hit.

[jlauber]

Barring the near impossible...I don't see Kobe surpassing Russell or MJ on any all-time list. IMHO, even two more rings would not be enough. Realistically I believe he could finish as high as #3...but even that is a stretch.

[Heilige]

Barring the near impossible...I don't see Kobe surpassing Russell or MJ on any all-time list. IMHO, even two more rings would not be enough. Realistically I believe he could finish as high as #3...but even that is a stretch.


What does your top 10 All time list look like?

[ginobli2311]

Barring the near impossible...I don't see Kobe surpassing Russell or MJ on any all-time list. IMHO, even two more rings would not be enough. Realistically I believe he could finish as high as #3...but even that is a stretch.

didn't you know that kobe is magical. he can shoot 21% more shots per game and maintain his fg% and winning.....

where are these extra 4 shots per game coming from? that is my question. are they coming from shaq and gasol and fisher? why does kobe average only 20 shots per game in the playoffs if he would be just as effective shooting 23?

have you ever seen kobe be shy about shooting? it just doesn't make any sense.

[ginobli2311]

What does your top 10 All time list look like?

i'll bite:

1. jordan
2. russell
3. magic
4. kareem
5. wilt
6. duncan
7. shaq
8. bird
9. hakeem
10. kobe

[plowking]

Barring the near impossible...I don't see Kobe surpassing Russell or MJ on any all-time list. IMHO, even two more rings would not be enough. Realistically I believe he could finish as high as #3...but even that is a stretch.

Didn't you initially have Kobe ranked higher than Jordan? :oldlol:

[branslowski]

Ginobli....If Jordan shot the ball over 27 times pg for about 7 straight yrs and avg 49% shooting during that span...Then yes, I would assume BEING the num 1 option and taking that many shots, he would be able to do it over an entire career.

If every since Kobe's been shooting over 20 shots per game his fg% is at 45-46%...Then I assure you he would still shoot it if he avg over 20 shots for an entire career.


And I know as it shows right now...His fg shots per game at 19 and his fg% which is 45%...Draws you to an conclusion that his % would go down if the shots went up...But why dismiss the FACT that when his shots have been up over 20pg over the last 6 season that his fg% is at 46% throughout it?..It gives a clear indication that once he starts getting up shots, he can actually get in a groove and keep his fg% at 45-46%.

I know your stance on this player wont open your eyes and atleast intake this perspective, but c'mon dude.

[jlauber]

What does your top 10 All time list look like?

Mine has changed some since I came to ISH. There are a number of quality posters here, and after reading their takes, and doing my own research, this is MY current list...

1. Russell
2. MJ
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Kareem
6. Shaq
7. Duncan
8. Kobe
9. Hakeem
10. Bird

Now, some will wonder why I have Wilt at #4 with "only" two rings. The fact was, Wilt was brilliant in the majority of his post-seasons. He had two teams, the 61-62 Warriors and the 64-65 Sixers that he almost carried to titles. He had three other teams that either came within a few points of winning it all (the '68 76ers and the '69 Lakers)...and the third was cheated out of a game in the Finals (game five of the '70 Finals.) So, Wilt came within an eye-lash of winning up to five more titles. Furthermore, Wilt either outplayed, or dominated his opposing centers in virtually every post-season.

Those that claim that Wilt was a "choker" or a "failure" obviously have NO CLUE about his play in the post-season. Russell was a "winner" and a "clutch" player, to be sure...but H2H, at BEST, he neutralized Wilt just enough for his TEAM's to win. Had Wilt put up a 4-3 game seven and been outscored and outrebounded by 21-24, then I would say that he was a choker. But, he put up the 21-24 game, basically on one leg, against Reed's 4-3 game in that game seven of the '70 Finals (yes, Reed was on one leg too...and only played a half.) Or how about Wilt's game seven in the 65 ECF's? He took a 40-40 team to a game seven, one-point loss against the 62-18 Celtics, and in the process he outscored Russell (who admittedly played well), 30-15, outshot Russell, 12-15 to 7-16, and outrebounded Russell, 32-29. I could list MANY more BIG games that Chamberlain had in his post-season career, but I won't bother now. Needless to say, though, that...(A), he faced a HOF center in 112 of his 160 post-season games,...and (B), his teams were outgunned by HOFers in EVERY post-season he played. BTW, his CAREER game seven numbers, in NINE games? 24.4 ppg, 26.3 rpg, and .626 shooting.

[ginobli2311]

Ginobli....If Jordan shot the ball over 27 times pg for about 7 straight yrs and avg 49% shooting during that span...Then yes, I would assume BEING the num 1 option and taking that many shots, he would be able to do it over an entire career.

If every since Kobe's been shooting over 20 shots per game his fg% is at 45-46%...Then I assure you he would still shoot it if he avg over 20 shots for an entire career.


And I know as it shows right now...His fg shots per game at 19 and his fg% which is 45%...Draws you to an conclusion that his % would go down if the shots went up...But why dismiss the FACT that when his shots have been up over 20pg over the last 6 season that his fg% is at 46% throughout it?..It gives a clear indication that once he starts getting up shots, he can actually get in a groove and keep his fg% at 45-46%.

I know your stance on this player wont open your eyes and atleast intake this perspective, but c'mon dude.


why is this so hard to understand. we are talking about 23 shots per game. kobe has only shot over this number twice...not 7 times. so i have no idea what you are talking about. i have already stated this "if we are just talking about kobe's last 6 years or his prime....i think he could shoot right at his current career fg%"....i totally agree with you on that

here is your problem:

what about kobe's first 4 years? do you realize how many more shots he would have had to take during that time? during his first 8 years.....where are these extra 4 shots coming from?

here are the years that kobe would have had no chance to take 23 or more shots and shoot 45.5%

97
98
99
00
04
05

that is 6 years of his career. also....you keep referencing 20 shots. we are talking about 23 shots. this is a huge difference.....

and again...the initial debate was not only about shot volume but was about maintaining winning as well. so again.....how are the lakers going to win the first title in 00 with kobe shooting close to 25% more shots? it just does not compute.

and if kobe did not take any more shots early on and back loaded them all late in his career....he would be averaging around 29 or 30 shots per game. and there is no way in hell he could maintain his fg% or win while shooting so much.

sorry....i think its very fair to say an increase of 21% more shots per game for his career would result in at least a 2% drop in fg%.

side note. kobe's three highest shooting attempts per game of his career resulted in two first round exits and a 2nd round exit. not counting an injury plagued 05 season and his first 2 years. those years are the worst three years (success wise) of kobe's career.

[branslowski]

:lol

At the moment...I really dont feel like debating ppl's player Rankings..

But lol Jblur...Russel over Jordan??...Bird at 10?...Magic that high ahead of Bird?...

[Poochymama]

:lol

At the moment...I really dont feel like debating ppl's player Rankings..

But lol Jblur...Russel over Jordan??...Bird at 10?...Magic that high ahead of Bird?...

What is so drastically wrong about Russell over Jordan? I mean yeah, I have Jordan over Russell, but I see nothing wrong with having it the other way around. It is, after all, an OPINION.

[branslowski]

Ginobli...I do understand where your coming from..And I wasn't talking about Kobe with an career of 29 shots pg....I was more talking about him being at 23...And I def think he would still be at 46% shooting.

It isn't like 46% shooting on 23 shots would be some insane number for Kobe..


Anyway...I really dislike debating "If" factors...Things that wont happen or didn't happen...Hypothetical opinions and such...


In the end...Kobe leading his team to 3 straight Finals shooting over 20 shots pg is just alright with me..:cheers:

[branslowski]

What is so drastically wrong about Russell over Jordan? I mean yeah, I have Jordan over Russell, but I see nothing wrong with having it the other way around. It is, after all, an OPINION.

IDK...Im prob really Bias against the 60's...Cause I don't think too highley of Wilt or Russel...I watched some games of theirs on youtube, ESPN Classics, NBATV, exc...Just not feeling the epic competition they had...Not fair, I know, but still...

I eliminate myself from Russel/Wilt convo's.

[ginobli2311]

Ginobli...I do understand where your coming from..And I wasn't talking about Kobe with an career of 29 shots pg....I was more talking about him being at 23...And I def think he would still be at 46% shooting.

It isn't like 46% shooting on 23 shots would be some insane number for Kobe..


Anyway...I really dislike debating "If" factors...Things that wont happen or didn't happen...Hypothetical opinions and such...


In the end...Kobe leading his team to 3 straight Finals shooting over 20 shots pg is just alright with me..:cheers:

and that is fine. i don't really understand where you are coming from because there are just as many years where the evidence supports my side.

the main problem i have with your argument is that you think all shots would be the same quality. and that could not be further from the truth. at some point (in terms of an entire career)....just lumping on 21% more shots is going to result in a higher number of those added shots being of bad quality.

that is our big difference. where are these shots coming from? kobe would have to take at least 2 more bad shots per game to get to 23 for his career. and also....i think your numbers are way off. kobe has only shot over 21 shots per game 5 times in his career. he's only shot 23 or more twice in his career. that just isn't enough evidence to support you at all.

i simply don't think any player could take that many more shots per game and maintain efficiency levels....especially players that already shoot the ball around 20 times a game.

i'm out. i respect your opinions....but i really think you are way off on this one.

[Poochymama]

IDK...Im prob really Bias against the 60's...Cause I don't think too highley of Wilt or Russel...I watched some games of theirs on youtube, ESPN Classics, NBATV, exc...Just not feeling the epic competition they had...Not fair, I know, but still...

I eliminate myself from Russel/Wilt convo's.


Overall, I would say the athleticism/skill of the average player back then was a notch below the players of today, but don't confuse that with the athleticism/skill of the elite players back then, which IMO hasn't really changed at all.

[branslowski]

Overall, I would say the athleticism/skill of the average player back then was a notch below the players of today, but don't confuse that with the athleticism/skill of the elite players back then, which IMO hasn't really changed at all.

Agreed...But while watching it...I just can't help but to say to myself..."Man, Wilt is dominating these slow unathletic f*cks...Man, LeBron would dunk on these lames all day...LeBron would prob avg 50ppg 15reb 17ast against these guy's"....Which is totally wrong of me, but...

[crosso√er]

i'll bite:

1. jordan
2. russell
3. magic
4. kareem
5. wilt
6. duncan
7. shaq
8. bird
9. hakeem
10. kobe

Please expand on this, what's the criteria you used in making such a bold deliberation?

[ginobli2311]

Please expand on this, what's the criteria you used in making such a bold deliberation?

what do you mean?

i'll assume that its because i have duncan over shaq.

simple. duncan won just as much with less. 11 straight seasons of 50 or more wins. 4 titles as the number 1 option vs 3.

mostly though. defense. i have duncan as one of the 5 greatest defenders of all time. shaq "might" crack the top 50. that gap is huge. duncan could do everything on defense....and he did.

i could go on and on. shaq had a better peak....but duncan is the overall better player.

[branslowski]

what do you mean?

i'll assume that its because i have duncan over shaq.

simple. duncan won just as much with less. 11 straight seasons of 50 or more wins. 4 titles as the number 1 option vs 3.

mostly though. defense. i have duncan as one of the 5 greatest defenders of all time. shaq "might" crack the top 50. that gap is huge. duncan could do everything on defense....and he did.

i could go on and on. shaq had a better peak....but duncan is the overall better player.

This.


Although, I don't agree with the "Duncan won with less"...Which shows you could be punishing Shaq for having good teamamtes...But having good teamates can take away from your statistics aswell so...

All in all...I agree that Duncan>>>Shaq...imo

[Jacks3]

What the heck??? By far the most logical thing I've ever seen this kid post. Did someone hack his account???
Kid? STFU. :facepalm

[Jacks3]

Had Kobe played for the Wizards his entire career and won 0 championships, this same board wouldn't even have him in the top 15,

lol. People have Kobe that high because he's an incredible player individually. Kobe could have 0 Chips and he'd be in the top 15 simply based on his accomplishments, peak/prime play, and playoff performances. Kobe haters are retarded.

[AirJordan23]

What is Kobe's legacy if he beats Miami's big 3 in the finals?

Better than Jordan's legacy.

[Poochymama]

lol. People have Kobe that high because he's an incredible player individually. Kobe could have 0 Chips and he'd be in the top 15 simply based on his accomplishments, peak/prime play, and playoff performances. Kobe haters are retarded.


I completely agree, but your'e kind of missing my point. Kobe is simply a better player than the guys in the 10-15 era. 15 was an exaggeration needed to get my point across, but even still, my point is that, if Kobe played with the Wizards people would undervalue him for the same reasons they overvalue him now, championships.

IMO, Kobe's rightful spot based on level of play is 5-7. What I'm saying is that had he won 0 championships, theres no way most people would rate him that high, even though he is that good of a player.

[PowerGlove]

lol. People have Kobe that high because he's an incredible player individually. Kobe could have 0 Chips and he'd be in the top 15 simply based on his accomplishments, peak/prime play, and playoff performances. Kobe haters are retarded.
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[PowerGlove]

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[PowerGlove]

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[Jacks3]

:facepalm
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What? I don't get it. People routinely have guys like Barkley, West, Oscar, Malone,Robinson in the top 15 and they all won 0 or only 1 ring. Considering the fact that Bryant is just as good a player as them, and maybe even better than some (arguably) it seems pretty clear that people would still have as top 15 All-Time just based on his tremendous play and longevity. :confusedshrug:

[Jacks3]

Iverson stan. :facepalm

[PowerGlove]

What? I don't get it. People routinely have guys like Barkley, West, Oscar, Malone,Robinson in the top 15 and they all won 0 or only 1 ring. Considering the fact that Bryant is just as good a player as them, and maybe even better than some (arguably) it seems pretty clear that people would still have as top 15 All-Time just based on his tremendous play and longevity. :confusedshrug:
The fact that you expect to drop Kobe in washington and never win a ring but produce in the same fashion over his career is at best laughable.

"Oh, carry the load from Day One Kobe!! You'll be fine."

[AirJordan23]

http://basketball.exchange.ph/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/aug282007_kobe.jpg

=

http://www.windrifthill.com/Images/Farm/goat3a.jpg

[indiefan24]

i'll bite:

1. jordan
2. russell
3. magic
4. kareem
5. wilt
6. duncan
7. shaq
8. bird
9. hakeem
10. kobe

ha, i remember when you had kobe at like 14 back in june

[Jacks3]

You're a moron. Kobe in Washington is the exact same player individually. His numbers would probably be better. He's still going to have the same longevity. He's still going to be mentioned as one of the best if not the best in the league. He's still going to put up the great stats (28-32/5-6/5-6). He's still going to be making many All-NBA 1st teams. So yeah, he's still the same player individually. That's the point. ****ing moron. :facepalm

[PowerGlove]

Because the wear and tear of being the main guy from day one wont affect his career.

Stop being stupid.

[Jacks3]

:roll: The guy is one of the best conditioned athletes in the league. He has the best work ethic in the league. He's a elite player in his 14th season. That's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. What? Is not having Shaq going to take years off his career? :roll: :roll: :roll:

[PowerGlove]

:roll: The guy is one of the best conditioned athletes in the league. He has the best work ethic in the league. He's a elite player in his 14th season. That's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. What? Is not having Shaq going to take years off his career? :roll: :roll: :roll:
:facepalm

I'm done here.

*insert rolling smilie* *insert obvious facts we'll all know which show that I can't think for myself* insert parade of rolling smilies*

[Jacks3]

Of course you're done. You know damn well you're wrong. :cheers:

[Bring-Your-Js]

Over-Analyze Much?

WTF did I miss? :oldlol:

Ginobli:

I actually respect your intellect and the cases you make, but you went too overboard and expended a lot of unneeded energy. It was merely a collection of examples of how "What Ifs" can be exploited to no end. It was merely in relation to a point on the belief that every other player seems to be based on what they've done and accomplished but with Kobe, it's somehow a matter of circumstance. That's hypocrisy to me. Nothing more, nothing less.

But to play along, I agree Bryant wouldn't maintain .455 FG% on 23 FGA if he were to have shot that much 96-00. Since 2000-01, He's proven multiple times he can maintain it..

if people are that hellbent on diminishing bryant, then do so for 1999-2000. I don't find it logical to discredit what he did in 2001 & 2002 if it is based on performance. Those numbers are more than comparable to dwade 2006 postseason. He played with Shaq. He also performed as well as most "No. 1s."

This argument should've been DEAD The second lebron signed with miami.

[mayo'sgrizz]

Originally Posted by ginobli2311
i'll bite:

1. jordan
2. russell
3. magic
4. kareem
5. wilt
6. duncan
7. shaq
8. bird
9. hakeem
10. kobe


lol top 10.................stupidest shit ive ever heard. the **** else does this guy hav to do like holy shittt. he does it all and has his whole career. hes played with better competition yr in and out led and carried his team in good times and bad. knows more bout basketball than any player in nba history as phil jackson put it even jordan. like wtfff all yall tht do NOT hav him in top 3 are seriously dumb as sheeeeittt. wow ill rank those top 10 u hav for ya tho bud. jesus.....SMH
1 jordan (for now)
2 kobe
3 magic
4 kareem
5 bird
6 russell
7 shaq
8 hakeem
9 duncan
10 wilt

[jlauber]

Originally Posted by ginobli2311
i'll bite:

1. jordan
2. russell
3. magic
4. kareem
5. wilt
6. duncan
7. shaq
8. bird
9. hakeem
10. kobe


lol top 10.................stupidest shit ive ever heard. the **** else does this guy hav to do like holy shittt. he does it all and has his whole career. hes played with better competition yr in and out led and carried his team in good times and bad. knows more bout basketball than any player in nba history as phil jackson put it even jordan. like wtfff all yall tht do NOT hav him in top 3 are seriously dumb as sheeeeittt. wow ill rank those top 10 u hav for ya tho bud. jesus.....SMH
1 jordan (for now)
2 kobe
3 magic
4 kareem
5 bird
6 russell
7 shaq
8 hakeem
9 duncan
10 wilt

Good lord! Wilt at #10 and Russell at #6? And Kobe ahead of Magic, Kareem, and Shaq??? We are all entitled to our opinions, but I would really like to read your reasoning on those slots...

[Bring-Your-Js]

Good lord! Wilt at #10 and Russell at #6? And Kobe ahead of Magic, Kareem, and Shaq??? We are all entitled to our opinions, but I would really like to read your reasoning on those slots...

This.

I've made a lot of posts defending Kobe here, but I've got him as the 3rd best LAKER. He's got time.. Its nothing to be ashamed of.

[crosso√er]

what do you mean?

i'll assume that its because i have duncan over shaq.

simple. duncan won just as much with less. 11 straight seasons of 50 or more wins. 4 titles as the number 1 option vs 3.

mostly though. defense. i have duncan as one of the 5 greatest defenders of all time. shaq "might" crack the top 50. that gap is huge. duncan could do everything on defense....and he did.

i could go on and on. shaq had a better peak....but duncan is the overall better player.

Sure Duncan is a fundamentally better defensive player, and what? Should we ignore Shaquille's sheer intimidation factor? Shaquille's mobility, quickness and overall defensive awareness was adequately enough for him to be used as an effective defensive anchor on any team, in any era. Look at Andrew Bynum, this guy has no clue what's going on the defensive end on majority of the possessions; but his length and general size allows him to be an intimidation factor inside. LA's defense is visibly worse without Bynum inside, a guy who is fundamentally terrible in terms of defensive awareness. In conclusion, size matters; and Shaquille not only had size but mobility/general quickness and defensive awareness to boot.

In conclusion, I fully believe in the form over substance theory; at the end of the day I feel just as comfortable with Shaquille being my team's defensive anchor as I do with Tim Duncan; despite Duncan having the superior defensive prowess.

Outside of that, your reasoning is skewed. I'm going out right now, so I'm somewhat in a rush. But I'll subvert your opinion on how Duncan is the overall better player (completely subjective opinion; and is most definitely within the minority scope) and Duncan winning more with less (complete fabrication; same guy since he was drafted, had arguably the best front office in the entire league putting together a cohesive group of players around him). Playing along side two all-stars for almost a decade; one who is considered by many at the very least the fourth best SG this past decade (behind Iverson, Bryant and Wade) and Parker, an exceptionally efficient PG. Not to mention possibly the best X & O coach in the game, with a savvy set of veterans behind them. You're severally over-exaggerating the discrepancy in talent between the two players and completely denigrating Duncan's supporting cast.

[Lakers_Kobe_Fan]

:facepalm

I'm done here.

*insert rolling smilie* *insert obvious facts we'll all know which show that I can't think for myself* insert parade of rolling smilies*

good...stay fcuking out of the Kobe & Laker related threads....

[jlauber]

This.

I've made a lot of posts defending Kobe here, but I've got him as the 3rd best LAKER. He's got time.. Its nothing to be ashamed of.

I agree. He MAY very well surpass Magic, Shaq and Kareem, but I just don't see his case as this point. If he were to retire tomorrow, would his career still be considered better than several of those folks on that list?

[Lakers_Kobe_Fan]

This.

I've made a lot of posts defending Kobe here, but I've got him as the 3rd best LAKER. He's got time.. Its nothing to be ashamed of.


yupe ..I think so...total posts = 39 & joined date = Aug 2010

[Jacks3]

I'm surprised more people don't have Erving in the top 10. He had incredible longevity and one of the greatest peaks ever. I suppose it's because he played in the ABA, but contrary to popular belief the ABA wasn't much different from the NBA in terms of competition or defense. In fact if I remember correctly half the all-stars in the all-star game post-merger were from the ABA.

[Bring-Your-Js]

yupe ..I think so...total posts = 39 & joined date = Aug 2010

What's your point? Check the percentage that have gone without any type of rebuttal from his wide world pool of haters. :facepalm

Klosed.

[jlauber]

If we are using hypotheticals here...I will say this...

IF Kobe plays like MJ did from ages 32 to 34, then I think he would have a case as the GOAT. That's a BIG IF...but just saying...

[Bring-Your-Js]

If we are using hypotheticals here...I will say this...

IF Kobe plays like MJ did from ages 32 to 34, then I think he would have a case as the GOAT. That's a BIG IF...but just saying...

Seriously attainable. It looked like he was on his way to his best year ppg wise since 2006-07 until the injuries started adding up last season. People could use this as proof of him beginning to break, especially the knees. The finger was a freak occurence like his pinky in my view, and rolling an already tender ankle helped absolutely nothing.

[PowerGlove]

good...stay fcuking out of the Kobe & Laker related threads....
Who are you?

When have you made a post that I have ever read?

Exactly.

Dont quote me anymore.

[New York Knicks]

If we are using hypotheticals here...I will say this...

IF Kobe plays like MJ did from ages 32 to 34, then I think he would have a case as the GOAT. That's a BIG IF...but just saying...
We've already seen Kobe at his best. And he never measured up. LeBron's the only hope left.

[gilalizard]

gasol was the best player in that series in my opinion.


I think Kobe may have thought this too. In his post-game interview, the interviewer was asking about his finals MVP, and Kobe commented about how he couldn't hit water from a boat or something, and then mentioned specifically "the Spaniard" as being instrumental in the series. I got the sense that Kobe thought Pau should of won the series MVP.

[Bring-Your-Js]

I think Kobe may have thought this too. In his post-game interview, the interviewer was asking about his finals MVP, and Kobe commented about how he couldn't hit water from a boat or something, and then mentioned specifically "the Spaniard" as being instrumental in the series. I got the sense that Kobe thought Pau should of won the series MVP.

If Gasol had shown up on the road and averaged a convincing 20-24 ppg to go with his rebounds I think you're talking serious case. However, heading back to Los Angeles for Game 6, Kobe was sporting a 30.2 ppg average. His 26/11 and 23/15 in the final two games combined with the fact Gasol never did hit 20 ppg for the series while shooting 48% himself (on shots much close to the rim) including 6-16 in Game 7 despite the same FGA as the regular season just isn't enough to take it from Bryant: 29/8/4? Jordan's had a lesser Finals than that shooting the same percentage and nobody questions it. It's just simply because its Kobe, really. People were even saying this in 2009 when he put up 32/5/7.

It's silly.

[Jacks3]

Pretty funny to see the Kobe haters talking about Gasol winning MVP considering how awful he was, especially on the road. What idiots. Hell, through 6 games many people were saying that Kobe should get MVP regardless if the Lakers win.

[Poochymama]

Originally Posted by ginobli2311
i'll bite:

1. jordan
2. russell
3. magic
4. kareem
5. wilt
6. duncan
7. shaq
8. bird
9. hakeem
10. kobe


lol top 10.................stupidest shit ive ever heard. the **** else does this guy hav to do like holy shittt. he does it all and has his whole career. hes played with better competition yr in and out led and carried his team in good times and bad. knows more bout basketball than any player in nba history as phil jackson put it even jordan. like wtfff all yall tht do NOT hav him in top 3 are seriously dumb as sheeeeittt. wow ill rank those top 10 u hav for ya tho bud. jesus.....SMH
1 jordan (for now)
2 kobe
3 magic
4 kareem
5 bird
6 russell
7 shaq
8 hakeem
9 duncan
10 wilt

This might be the worst top ten I have ever seen.

Kobe above Kareem, Russell, Wilt is retarded. Wilt at 10 is sheer stupidity. :facepalm

[Poochymama]

I agree. He MAY very well surpass Magic, Shaq and Kareem, but I just don't see his case as this point. If he were to retire tomorrow, would his career still be considered better than several of those folks on that list?

I don't even see him passing Kareem. Even if he accomplishes more than Kareem, Kareem, for the majority of his career was simply a better player than Kobe ever was, unless Kobe somehow ups his level of play by 15-20% these last few seasons and brings home a couple more rings.

[Poochymama]

If we are using hypotheticals here...I will say this...

IF Kobe plays like MJ did from ages 32 to 34, then I think he would have a case as the GOAT. That's a BIG IF...but just saying...

He hasn't been able to reach that level of play yet, and he's already past his prime.

And honestly, he needs to exceed MJ's peak if he wants to be ahead of him, which like you said is a big if.

[Poochymama]

Pretty funny to see the Kobe haters talking about Gasol winning MVP considering how awful he was, especially on the road. What idiots. Hell, through 6 games many people were saying that Kobe should get MVP regardless if the Lakers win.

Watching the games for some reason made me think Gasol deserved the MVP. However going back and watching the games without all the excitement and then looking at the stats, it's pretty clear Kobe did in fact deserve that finals mvp, and it wasn't even that close.

[G-Funk]

I think most would agree Kobe is in that 9-10 range at the moment. Would beating Lebron and Wade in the finals jump him up to maybe the top 5 if he manages to beat these two superstars while winning his 6th championship and winning his 3rd finals MVP along with completing a Lakers 3-peat. A lot are expecting L.A to beat Miami due to the size factor but does Kobe leading Lakers to another 3-peat jump him even higher?


Its going down

[Heavincent]

Top 5

[G-Funk]

Top 5

I say 6!

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Perfect icing on the cake, to retire on top

[Legends66NBA7]

It still comes down to how he performs in the playoffs/finals vs the Heat.

[KG215]

Beating Miami's "Big 3" now, with this roster, wouldn't do nearly as much for his legacy had he done it in 2011. Now, if they Lakers get to the Finals and Kobe averages something like 28/5/5 and wins FMVP, I have no problem sliding him up to #6 or so all-time. Still can't put him ahead of Jordan, Kareem, Russell, Magic, and Chamberlain. And even then, I'd have a hard time putting him ahead of Bird, but 'one of those that value peak/prime more than longevity; not by a lot, but peak/prime influences my rankings more than longevity.

But, if the Lakers win it all next year, and Kobe plays well enough to win Finals MVP, then I have no problem putting him at the front of that Kobe/Shaq/Hakeem/Duncan group. But if they win, and Howard wins FMVP, and the balance of the Kobe/Dwight/Nash/Gasol quartet just proves to be too overwhelming, then I'd still probably have him in that 7-10 range.

[longtime lurker]

Top 5

He'd have to pull off an insane run to enter top 5. I'm talking about another run of 3 straight finals, now if he won 3 straight then we're talking GOAT potential

[pauk]

Nothing, because it will not be him who beats them if that happens (most likely not)... it will be Dwight

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

All the pundits are predicting the Heat to win it all...still.
Kobe cannot improve his legacy very much, even if he wins fMVP yet again.
He is already deemed to be among the very best. That's it. Done.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Nothing, because it will not be him who beats them if that happens (most likely not)... it will be Dwight
You sound like a Jordan junky....as if one player beats another team by himself.

Nash, Gasol, Kobe, Dwight and the rest of the crew will each have something to say before its all said and done.

[RRR3]

You sound like a Jordan junky....as if one player beats another team by himself.

Nash, Gasol, Kobe, Dwight and the rest of the crew will each have something to say before its all said and done.
Good luck guarding the perimeter against OKC and Miami

[pauk]

You sound like a Jordan junky....as if one player beats another team by himself.

Nash, Gasol, Kobe, Dwight and the rest of the crew will each have something to say before its all said and done.

I just mean Dwight is better, this will be Dwights team

[Optimus Prime]

I think most would agree Kobe is in that 9-10 range at the moment. Would beating Lebron and Wade in the finals jump him up to maybe the top 5 if he manages to beat these two superstars while winning his 6th championship and winning his 3rd finals MVP along with completing a Lakers 3-peat. A lot are expecting L.A to beat Miami due to the size factor but does Kobe leading Lakers to another 3-peat jump him even higher?

Even Bill Simmons, a notorious Kobe and Laker hater and relentless Boston homer, has Kobe Bryant at #6 all time.

9-10? :facepalm

:kobe:

[TheAesirsFinest]

Even Bill Simmons, a notorious Kobe and Laker hater and relentless Boston homer, has Kobe Bryant at #6 all time.

9-10? :facepalm

:kobe:

Optimus, I don't think I've ever seen you make a post without the Kobe face after they put that in.

Don't ever change.

:kobe: