Reggie Miller vs. Ray Allen

[Snoop_Cat]

So with Ray Allen closing in on Reggie and with often times people comparing the two, I decided to bring up a thread both in anticipation of the record being broken and comparisons between the two.

Things like "who was the better defender", "better pure shooter", "better clutch", etc., etc.

Discuss.

[no pun intended]

So with Ray Allen closing in on Reggie and with often times people comparing the two, I decided to bring up a thread both in anticipation of the record being broken and comparisons between the two.

Things like "who was the better defender", "better pure shooter", "better clutch", etc., etc.

Discuss.
Reggie Miller's notoriety is thanks to his clutch performances. Ray Allen has not had many notable clutch performances as cold-blooded Miller.

[Sarcastic]

Reggie was the better defender. They were about equal as pure shooters, but Ray would have the edge in aesthetics, and Reggie again has the edge in clutch.

[PistolPete]

Better Defender: Miller

Better Pure Shooter: Allen

Better Clutch Player: Miller

[AirJordan23]

Ray Allen by a good margin.

[wpdougie2180]

Reggie Miller's notoriety is thanks to his clutch performances. Ray Allen has not had many notable clutch performances as cold-blooded Miller.

Ray as a whole is better than Reggie. When Ray was younger Ray could create his own shoot, drive to the basket and finish with some of the best in the league at the time and still shoot as one of the better shooters in the league.

Also Ray has monster games in the playoff including games against Philly and Sacramento that no one remembers where he single-handely won games for his team when did reggie do all that plus play great defense on arguably the best player in the league. Reggie just mostly hit jumpers that was it.

[plowking]

You can tell those who never watched Reggie, or don't know much about his track record. And those are the ones that pick him as the better player over Ray Allen.

Ray Allen was/is clutcher and a better player.

[rawimpact]

Better Defender: Miller

Better Pure Shooter: Allen

Better Clutch Player: Miller

This

But even as pure shooter reggie has a argument as top man. Allen is arguably a better defender too though

[rawimpact]

You can tell those who never watched Reggie, or don't know much about his track record. And those are the ones that pick him as the better player over Ray Allen.

Ray Allen was/is clutcher and a better player.

false

[1987_Lakers]

Give me Ray Allen over Reggie Miller. Some people here wouldn't even know who Reggie Miller is if it wasn't for the Knicks.

[tpols]

ray allen was the better overall player but reggie was easily the more clutch of the two.

[plowking]

Can someone name me all the series that Reggie won with his clutch play?

[TheLogo]

I would have to agree that Allen is better than Miller.

Reggie was overrated because of the highlights you see.

[plowking]

Give me Ray Allen over Reggie Miller. Some people here wouldn't even know who Reggie Miller is if it wasn't for the Knicks.

Boom.

Not that they wouldn't know who he is, but there wouldn't be this BS notion that he was the man when it came down to needing a player to pull you through.

[AirJordan&Magic]

So with Ray Allen closing in on Reggie and with often times people comparing the two, I decided to bring up a thread both in anticipation of the record being broken and comparisons between the two.

Things like "who was the better defender", "better pure shooter", "better clutch", etc., etc.

Discuss.

Reggie Miller was better in the clutch.

Three point shooting is debatable (Allen has a slight edge, statistically), whereas Reggie had a better midrange shot/game, imo.
Pure shooter is debatable, though I am leaning towards Ray.

But Ray allen is the better overall player. Especially in his prime (Milwaulkee/early Seattle days).

Ray Allen is a better ballhandler, equal if not better defender, better at getting to the rim, and is a better passer.

[tpols]

Boom.

Not that they wouldn't know who he is, but there wouldn't be this BS notion that he was the man when it came down to needing a player to pull you through.
:facepalm reggie was clutch in other moments besides his legendary 8 second playoff performance. This kid probably never even saw him play.

[AirJordan&Magic]

Give me Ray Allen over Reggie Miller. Some people here wouldn't even know who Reggie Miller is if it wasn't for the Knicks.

Though I do not like diminishing great players, I can agree with this.

That Pacers-Knicks rivalry is why many people think of Reggie so highly.

[plowking]

:facepalm reggie was clutch in other moments besides his legendary 8 second playoff performance. This kid probably never even saw him play.

Name some series outside the New York one where Reggie stepped up.

[Sarcastic]

Reggie Miller's playoff stats are better than his regular season stats. Ray Allen's are not.

[Snoop_Cat]

My one question here was that who was the better defender though? Haven't seen much of Reggie outside of the playoffs and highlights so I'm not sure how good he was during the season.

[Ruh-Roh]

Ray Allen had an unbelievable arsenal in his younger days, he could drive, finish well, shoot the ball. Don't forget he was even in a dunk contest in the mid-late 90's.

Miller cemented his legacy with unbelievable clutch moments, something Ray has tasted, but not quite to Reggie's level i.m.o. I also agree Miller was a better defender, but defense is a kinda different animal these days.

My favorite aspect of Reggie was the mind games he could play on the opposition. Poor John Starks. Ray Allen could never mind**** anyone the way Reggie Miller did.

Defense: Miller
Athleticism: Allen
Overall game during their primes: Allen
Clutch: Miller
Mind****ing: Miller

[Sarcastic]

For most of Ray Allen's career, he has been a second or third option for his team. Reggie Miller was the first option for most his career.

[PistolPete]

Name some series outside the New York one where Reggie stepped up.

Name some where Allen did. Just to be fair.


It's hard to eclipse what Reggie did in those playoffs series. I am a Knicks fan and as an astute basketball watcher in the 90's, his performance during those series is only second to what Jordan was doing during that era.

[hayden695]

You can tell those who never watched Reggie, or don't know much about his track record. And those are the ones that pick him as the better player over Ray Allen.

Ray Allen was/is clutcher and a better player.
+1.

Reggie seems to get a little too much praise and people only think of Ray as a pure shooter. Ray was a beast in his prime.

I loved Reggie though.

[mayo'sgrizz]

miller time
:cheers:

[hayden695]

For most of Ray Allen's career, he has been a second or third option for his team. Reggie Miller was the first option for most his career.
Maybe that's why one has a title, and the other doesn't.

[Sarcastic]

Maybe that's why one has a title, and the other doesn't.

What the hell does that mean? Ray Allen has more titles than Ewing, Barkley, and Malone combined. Does that mean he's a better player than them?

[PistolPete]

Maybe that's why one has a title, and the other doesn't.

LOL how silly

[hayden695]

What the hell does that mean? Ray Allen has more titles than Ewing, Barkley, and Malone combined. Does that mean he's a better player than them?
I'm saying it because someone brought up Ray not being a first option and Reggie being a first option. When you can see that neither should be a first option and the evidence is in the fact that the one who wasn't has a title. I'm not big on using titles to rate players (and I'm not here) but it shows here why some players should and shouldn't be first options.

[Sarcastic]

I'm saying it because someone brought up Ray not being a first option and Reggie being a first option. When you can see that neither should be a first option and the evidence is in the fact that the one who wasn't has a title. I'm not big on using titles to rate players (and I'm not here) but it shows here why some players should and shouldn't be first options.

I brought it up, and it has nothing to do with comparing them. Ray Allen won a ring as the third option in Boston. Sorry that Reggie never got to join up with the Lakers and piggyback his way to a ring.

[hayden695]

I brought it up, and it has nothing to do with comparing them. Ray Allen won a ring as the third option in Boston. Sorry that Reggie never got to join up with the Lakers and piggyback his way to a ring.
Ok saying Ray piggybacked on there championship team proves how dumb you are. I will admit though he did have a strong supporting cast (obv).

And Reggie probably would have got a ring too had he joined a team with two players better than him, but this was my point. Saying Reggie was a first option means nothing since he never won. If he had of won, then sure it would make the arguement change incredibly, but he didn't. I'm not saying Ray was better because of it, or anything like that. but to say Ray was worse because h e played on a better team s absurd.

[plowking]

Name some where Allen did. Just to be fair.


It's hard to eclipse what Reggie did in those playoffs series. I am a Knicks fan and as an astute basketball watcher in the 90's, his performance during those series is only second to what Jordan was doing during that era.

My point is more that Reggie lost series he should have won, and Allen has series like that as well, though far fewer.

You can name plenty for Allen I guess. Bulls series, this years playoff run until the finals, 2008 finals. In his run with Seattle he beat a better Sacramento team in the first round.

[Pointguard]

How is Ray Allen falling behind in defense. He guarded Kobe over two finals as good as I ever seen anybody ever guard him. Reggie couldn't guard young inexperienced Kobe. Well he did but nowhere as near as impressive as Ray Allen

I remember when Bruce Bowen was shutting down everybody in their playoff runs - humiliating players. But Ray Allen was the only one that torched him. It was the best playoff shooting performances I ever seen. Not as clutch as Miller but better from start to finish. Ray could create his own shot whereas Miller would have to run behind the screens.

[hayden695]

How is Ray Allen falling behind in defense. He guarded Kobe over two finals as good as I ever seen anybody ever guard him. Reggie couldn't guard young inexperienced Kobe. Well he did but nowhere as near as impressive as Ray Allen

I remember when Bruce Bowen was shutting down everybody in their playoff runs - humiliating players. But Ray Allen was the only one that torched him. It was the best playoff shooting performances I ever seen. Not as clutch as Miller but better from start to finish. Ray could create his own shot whereas Miller would have to run behind the screens.
His d on Kobe was quite great. Every play he would surprise me.

[PistolPete]

My point is more that Reggie lost series he should have won, and Allen has series like that as well, though far fewer.

You can name plenty for Allen I guess. Bulls series, this years playoff run until the finals, 2008 finals. In his run with Seattle he beat a better Sacramento team in the first round.

Reggie lost those series because of better competition. A hungrier and more talented Knicks team, and a superstar in Shaquille O'Neal when facing the Magic. Point is, Reggie carried those teams as far as he could. Ray Allen was the third best option when coming to the Celtics, and the Celtics came out victorious out of a weak Eastern Conference. Their Finals win a couple years was a collaborated effort. Coaching, and two hall-of-famers in Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett.

[N0Skillz]

So with Ray Allen closing in on Reggie and with often times people comparing the two, I decided to bring up a thread both in anticipation of the record being broken and comparisons between the two.

Things like "who was the better defender", "better pure shooter", "better clutch", etc., etc.

Discuss.



Reggie Miller by a good margin

[L.Kizzle]

For most of Ray Allen's career, he has been a second or third option for his team. Reggie Miller was the first option for most his career.
The Bucks and Sonics say hi.

Maybe his first few years in the league from like 97 to 99 he wasn't the first option but from 2000 to 2007 he was the first option, that's 8 seasons.

And Miller wasn't the first option right out the bat, remember a lil homie by the name of Chuck Person?

[AK47DR91]

The Bucks and Sonics say hi.

Maybe his first few years in the league from like 97 to 99 he wasn't the first option but from 2000 to 2007 he was the first option, that's 8 seasons.

And Miller wasn't the first option right out the bat, remember a lil homie by the name of Chuck Person?

Seattle, yes but in Milwaukee I thought Glen Robinson was the man. Or am I wrong?

So that's basically 3 or 4 years in Seattle as the #1 option.

[west]

Seattle, yes but in Milwaukee I thought Glen Robinson was the man. Or am I wrong?

So that's basically 3 or 4 years in Seattle as the #1 option.
You are wrong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3x732DBtBA

[L.Kizzle]

Seattle, yes but in Milwaukee I thought Glen Robinson was the man. Or am I wrong?

So that's basically 3 or 4 years in Seattle as the #1 option.
Yeah Glenn was the man Rays first couple of seasons, by 99, it was Ray Allen.

[AK47DR91]

You are wrong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3x732DBtBA

I need more than one game, bro.

Any Bucks fan want to chime in about the Big Dog & Ray years?

[L.Kizzle]

I need more than one game, bro.

Any Bucks fan want to chime in about the Big Dog & Ray years?
They'll chime in that Ray Allen was better. It's not that hard.

[AK47DR91]

Yeah Glenn was the man Rays first couple of seasons, by 99, it was Ray Allen.

Oh, I see. So you are correct. I was wrong.

[N0Skillz]

Reggie!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jstern]

I just read the 1st page and it's amazing how the typical Kobe trolls are trying so hard to put Miller down, and it all relates to Kobe vs Jordan. Miller's prime was in the 90s, so of course they must diminish him, say he's not clutch as best they can.

I really don't know who's better, but Kobe did say that Miller has been the hardest player to guard in his career. All time.

Here's the link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mKCxkJTFrU

[Doko]

:lol how's this even a question? Ray Allen in his prime was better than Reggie Miller in every single aspect of the game.

[Flamboyant]

For most of Ray Allen's career, he has been a second or third option for his team. Reggie Miller was the first option for most his career.

For most of his career???? How old are you? He has been the man since 99 (inarguably since 00). That's 10 years as the man for you.

The only thing I can give to Reggie is clutch, where if I need one shot only he is the guy I take over (literally) anyone to ever step on a basketball court. To answer plowkings question, you should have seen Miller making a 3pointer while being guarded by MJ. Or how about him forcing the overtime against the Nets in 2002. Reggie has so many clutch moments in his career. That being said:
Ray Allen beats Reggie at just about every other category, including defense, athleticism, pure shooting, ball handling, passing. He is clearly the better player, and it's not even close.

[Sarcastic]

For most of his career???? How old are you? He has been the man since 99 (inarguably since 00). That's 10 years as the man for you.

The only thing I can give to Reggie is clutch, where if I need one shot only he is the guy I take over (literally) anyone to ever step on a basketball court. To answer plowkings question, you should have seen Miller making a 3pointer while being guarded by MJ. Or how about him forcing the overtime against the Nets in 2002. Reggie has so many clutch moments in his career. That being said:
Ray Allen beats Reggie at just about every other category, including defense, athleticism, pure shooting, ball handling, passing. He is clearly the better player, and it's not even close.

Older than you, since I know that his entire time that he played with Glenn Robinson he was always the second option. He never took more shots than Robinson, and the offense did not run through him. He didn't become a number 1 option till 2003-4 when he was 28 years old and that only lasted a few years till he was traded to Boston, and became a number 3 option.

[whatever666]

:lol how's this even a question? Ray Allen in his prime was better than Reggie Miller in every single aspect of the game.

Are you insane? Every aspect of the game!??

Ray Allen was not even close to how clutch Reggie was and how CONSISTANT Reggie was, especially as a jumpshooter and especially in the clutch.

Michael Jordans & Larry Birds clutch plays have been more memorable due to their better legacy... but Reggie has probably made more clutch shots than anybody in NBA history, he has been a starter for the Pacers for 18 years and every single game he has hit some kindof clutch shot / clutch shots / gamewinning baskets / buzzerbeaters.....

Reggie is also the best ever at moving without the ball, screen usage, catch-n-shoot. Infact... Ray Allen and Richard Hamilton admit they studied all Reggies footage to became better in that aspect of the game, they "stole" alot of tricks Reggie had moving without the ball.

Ray Allen also said a couple of times he based his game on Reggie Miller / Glen Rice / Dale Ellis.

[Flamboyant]

Older than you, since I know that his entire time that he played with Glenn Robinson he was always the second option. He never took more shots than Robinson, and the offense did not run through him. He didn't become a number 1 option till 2003-4 when he was 28 years old and that only lasted a few years till he was traded to Boston, and became a number 3 option.

Really? I seriously doubt that, since you can't tell of the top off your head that they weren't even teammates in 02-03 season. Who was better than him than (be it with Bucks, or Sonics)? And attempting more field-goals makes you the leader? hmmmm. Even while attempting less shots, Ray was scoring more, and the difference was much more obvious in the post-season. Especially after 01 when he won the 3point contest, and led the Bucks to the ECF, there was 0 argument on who was the best player of the team.

P.S.: Allen was also the best player of the Celtics team in the 2009 season.

[Rasheed1]

Give me Reggie Miller....

Reggie was straight nasty... He had that killer in him like jordan or Bird... Reggie was soo scary that you couldnt even really taunt him or anything like that because he would feed on it and light you up...

Some of his games against the Knicks and even the sixers in the 90's and early 2000 era Reggie was the kind of player that you did not want to wake up...

let him coast and dont get him angry because if you do?

its curtains....

Ray Allen can heat up and light up a team, but ray allen never scared me half as much as Reggie did...

[hateraid]

In terms of skillset they are quite similar. But as pointed out it's the intangibles that make Reggie the better player and one of the greatest shooting gaurds ever.

- The most clutch 3-point shooter ever
- Abiltity to move without the ball
- Seemingly better shooter in the 4th quarter
- Multiple ways of getting his shot off.
- Ability to shoot at ackward angles

Reggie in most expert's opinions is within the top five shooting gaurds of all time. I would put Ray in the same category as guys like Andrew Toney. Deadly shooter, but had more success playing with higher level superstars.

[Shepseskaf]

I would put Ray in the same category as guys like Andrew Toney. Deadly shooter, but had more success playing with higher level superstars.
This is probably one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever seen on ISH, and makes a mockery of Ray's career before joining the Celtics.

I loved watching Toney, but comparing him to Ray is laughable.

One aspect that no one has mentioned about Reggie is his mastery of the mental aspect of the day. He is possibly the best at getting into opponents head in league history. The only other person close to him in that regard is Rodman.

Remember the Stark's head-butt? Classic Reggie. For things like this, I'd give him the edge over Ray, but the distance between them isn't that big.

[PowerGlove]

In terms of skillset they are quite similar. But as pointed out it's the intangibles that make Reggie the better player and one of the greatest shooting gaurds ever.

- The most clutch 3-point shooter ever
- Abiltity to move without the ball
- Seemingly better shooter in the 4th quarter
- Multiple ways of getting his shot off.
- Ability to shoot at ackward angles

Reggie in most expert's opinions is within the top five shooting gaurds of all time. I would put Ray in the same category as guys like Andrew Toney. Deadly shooter, but had more success playing with higher level superstars.

Are you serious? I think some of the older posters are getting a huge case of nostalgia overload.

Ray in his prime was a legit All-Star averaging over 20 PPG for eight seasons.

[FCN]

Reggie = clutch but Ray was the more complete overall player IMO.

[Jordan23GOAT]

Reggie = clutch but Ray was the more complete overall player IMO.
This. Overall, Ray Allen is a better player and he's a champion just to add. That might add to him being a great player.

[ImmortalD24]

Ball Handling: Ray Allen
Defese: Ray Allen
Screen Running, Leg Kicking: Reggie Miller
Scoring: Ray Allen
3pt Shooting: Ray Allen
Clutch: Wash
Overall: Ray Allen


Reggie Miller himself will tell you that Ray is the more complete/ better player.

[PowerGlove]

What does Reggie=Clutch even mean? Ray Ray is clutch too. Maybe if he had his gamewinners on constant rotation like reggie....



Ball Handling: Ray Allen
Defense: Ray Allen
Screen Running, Leg Kicking: Reggie Miller
Scoring: Ray Allen
3pt Shooting: Ray Allen
Clutch: Wash
Overall: Ray Allen

/thread

[bucks_ole]

For most of Ray Allen's career, he has been a second or third option for his team. Reggie Miller was the first option for most his career.

Yeah, I kind of disagree with this. From the 99-00 season, Ray became the man on his team, up until his Boston tenure. 98-99 season him and Glenn were basically equal in terms of importance to the team, so I really wouldn't call him a second option in that case. That's a solid 8 seasons as the main man, and another one or two where he was basically option 1a. Of course, he didn't win anything until he was with Boston, but still, he was a legit #1 option for the majority of his career.

[west]

Just to show the difference between Prime Ray to Boston Ray.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLvKK7kzhbg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Pg5udqMUto
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkd-gPyeub8

[chadcas]

People who actually WATCHED Miller and Allen play know that this is a no brainer, Reggie is easily better than Ray. I love both players but one is a killer and one is passive. It's like comparing Kobe to T-Mac same talent different heart.

[Horatio33]

tha game where Miller had the 3-steal-3 sequence was tainted because:

During that season the 3 point line was moved closer to the basket to increase scoring.

The Pacers lost that series with Miller having a horrendous game in the decider.

I think Ray was more creative without the ball and could use screens to get J's. You never saw Miller take people off the dribble. Mostly screens or open J's. Ray was the more creative off the dribble and could play point.

I think Miller is overrated because he hit big shots at MSG. If he had hit those in Atlanta it would not be mentioned as much.

Even when Reggie hit the 3 to win game 6 in 98 after pushing off MJ, they lost the series.

I think both were great 2nd options, just needed a dominant big man, which neither had in their primes (Ray got KG after his.)

[redhonda76]

Give me Reggie anyday. You cannot judge Reggie based on his stats. He was clutch. He's ability to go through screens was amazing. Despite his skinny frame, he was incredibly durable and underrated defender. As a Knick fan there are only 2 players which I feared the most, Jordan and Reggie. His mental game was top notch. He can get into player's head like Starks, and even Jordan. Reggie has zero fear taking the last shot.

[Charlie Sheen]

How is Ray Allen falling behind in defense. He guarded Kobe over two finals as good as I ever seen anybody ever guard him. Reggie couldn't guard young inexperienced Kobe. Well he did but nowhere as near as impressive as Ray Allen

His d on Kobe was quite great. Every play he would surprise me.

:oldlol: That's not the way I remember it. Go back and take a look at the 2010 Finals where the C's ignored Artest pretty much the whole series to send a 2nd defender at Kobe.

The people saying Reggie isn't on Ray's level handling the ball? Yeah, right. What could Ray do that Reggie couldn't? A younger reggie would put the ball on the deck and finish all the way at the rim in traffic. didnt use the left hand as much tho. Ray Allen wasnt breaking defenders down like iverson.

[Simple Jack]

To Plowking:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7uYs843Z4c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hRDJdccz2A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5LOkjxIfhM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ApQwIdPY-g&feature=related

94 conference finals game 5

Game winner vs the Nets after sending it into OT

Game winner vs Detroit

[Horatio33]

To Plowking:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7uYs843Z4c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hRDJdccz2A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5LOkjxIfhM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ApQwIdPY-g&feature=related

94 conference finals game 5

Game winner vs the Nets after sending it into OT

Game winner vs Detroit

Did he win any of those series?

[tpols]

Did he win any of those series?
what does that have to do with him being clutch?

What did ray win without being a third option?

[PowerGlove]

what does that have to do with him being clutch?

What did ray win without being a third option?

LOL @ Third option. He stepped up multiple times for the C's and certain teams(Cavs) were trying to shut him down first.

He was a candidate for Finals MVP.

[tpols]

LOL @ Third option. He stepped up multiple times for the C's and certain teams(Cavs) were trying to shut him down first.

He was a candidate for Finals MVP.
okay.

Garnett anchored the world class defense.

Pierce was given the ball for iso in the clutch everytime.

The offense was never run through ray.

Ray was a great shooter and would slash from time to time but he was the third best player on that team.

KG and Pierce were easily ahead of him.

At bolded so what? Tony parker won fmvp and was he better than duncan? That award is correct most of the time (as it was in your example where the best player, pierce, won it) but it wouldn't have been if your scenario took place.

[necya]

People who actually WATCHED Miller and Allen play know that this is a no brainer, Reggie is easily better than Ray. I love both players

YES, i have to make some research but i should have about 15 game winner from reggie, and i don't have a bunch of pacers games...

maybe it could be a good solution to stop those comparisons between a current player and an old player cause we know that the 80% of people here are 17yo and never watch the old players...
compare 2 current players would be better imo.

[Horatio33]

what does that have to do with him being clutch?

What did ray win without being a third option?

He was clutch in none series deciding games. When the series needed to be won, he couldn't deliver.

[necya]

He was clutch in none series deciding games. When the series needed to be won, he couldn't deliver.

prove it, then find players who use to did it in deciding games...
according that miller was absent in 2002 ECR1 G5 against the nets at age of 36, in pivotal G5 of 1994 ECF series and G7 in 1995 ECSF.

waiting your reply

[Simple Jack]

Did he win any of those series?

That's irrelevant to how clutch those shots were.

[no pun intended]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xr9ldg2jL3Q
ouch.

[Doko]

Are you insane? Every aspect of the game!??

Ray Allen was not even close to how clutch Reggie was and how CONSISTANT Reggie was, especially as a jumpshooter and especially in the clutch.

Michael Jordans & Larry Birds clutch plays have been more memorable due to their better legacy... but Reggie has probably made more clutch shots than anybody in NBA history, he has been a starter for the Pacers for 18 years and every single game he has hit some kindof clutch shot / clutch shots / gamewinning baskets / buzzerbeaters.....

Reggie is also the best ever at moving without the ball, screen usage, catch-n-shoot. Infact... Ray Allen and Richard Hamilton admit they studied all Reggies footage to became better in that aspect of the game, they "stole" alot of tricks Reggie had moving without the ball.

Ray Allen also said a couple of times he based his game on Reggie Miller / Glen Rice / Dale Ellis.

How many game winning shots does Reggie have? 'cause Ray has 15 just from 2003 to 2008.

[crisoner]

I really would take either or man...

But I got to lean towards Reggie a bit. He was my favorite player back in the 90's so I am a little bias.

[DeeDee]

To Plowking:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7uYs843Z4c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hRDJdccz2A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5LOkjxIfhM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ApQwIdPY-g&feature=related

94 conference finals game 5

Game winner vs the Nets after sending it into OT

Game winner vs Detroit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x99mER-dzFw&feature=search
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjiTqq7f06U&feature=search
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFgPqYbpwI0&feature=search
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrzsRRlwaUQ&feature=search
:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

[Lebron23]

Happy Birthday Reggie Miller.

[Simple Jack]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x99mER-dzFw&feature=search
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjiTqq7f06U&feature=search
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFgPqYbpwI0&feature=search
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrzsRRlwaUQ&feature=search
:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:


I wasn't comparing the two; simply responding to Plowking's question of when he has been clutch other than against the Knicks...

[hateraid]

This is probably one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever seen on ISH, and makes a mockery of Ray's career before joining the Celtics.

I loved watching Toney, but comparing him to Ray is laughable.

One aspect that no one has mentioned about Reggie is his mastery of the mental aspect of the day. He is possibly the best at getting into opponents head in league history. The only other person close to him in that regard is Rodman.

Remember the Stark's head-butt? Classic Reggie. For things like this, I'd give him the edge over Ray, but the distance between them isn't that big.

Laughable in what sense? You obviously haven't watched Toney enough.
Their careers may have not paralleled but in terms of skillset and productivity in identical situations they are carbon copy.

Toney was one of the most prolific and unforgiving scorers in this league, not just a dead eye gunner. His productivity with Julius and Malone is very similar to that of Allen with the trio. Difference is Toney never had the luxury of being a first option to showcase his full potential as well as he was injured early. If all things paralleled then we'd be seeing identical careers.
I think you've greatly underrated Toney, but then again, most people do.

[Pointguard]

:oldlol: That's not the way I remember it. Go back and take a look at the 2010 Finals where the C's ignored Artest pretty much the whole series to send a 2nd defender at Kobe.

The people saying Reggie isn't on Ray's level handling the ball? Yeah, right. What could Ray do that Reggie couldn't? A younger reggie would put the ball on the deck and finish all the way at the rim in traffic. didnt use the left hand as much tho. Ray Allen wasnt breaking defenders down like iverson.

If there were no picks, Reggie Miller, his career would be nonexistant. He could put it down when he was younger but not on a decent defender. That is the big difference between the two. Reggie really needed other players to create space. Once he got hot he could create space with fakes but only after he hit a couple of open jumpshots. Nobody was breaking down defenders like AI.... . Ray Allen could create space on his own.

I notice you specified in 2010 they sent a second defender at Kobe (maybe 30%). Not the case in 08. No way would Indiana have put Reggie out there like Allen was out there... at least not if they were trying to win. Reggie would get folks mad and they would miss but that didn't work with everybody.

[TheAnchorman]

Ray Allen can create his own shot/make space better than Reggie, their off the ball movement skills are both great; Reggie has had many amazing clutch moments but Allen has had the same as well (not to mention setting and breaking many 3-pt records in the playoffs and Finals). he also took the 2005 spurs to 6 games (almost 7) as clearly the best player on an overachieving sonics team that year.

overall i choose ray.

[necya]

i don't know many players who has put more than 40pts on MJ...

[Sarcastic]

i don't know many players who has put more than 40pts on MJ...

As it was mentioned earlier, this is a Jordan vs Kobe argument in disguise.

[necya]

As it was mentioned earlier, this is a Jordan vs Kobe argument in disguise.

i don't really know what you are talking about, but if you think about the 55pts of kobe against the wizards (and no one come on MJ) you are wrong.
Miller did it in 90, and it's difficult to me to remember some players who bite MJ on a whole game on a match up.

[TheAnchorman]

i don't really know what you are talking about, but if you think about the 55pts of kobe against the wizards (and no one come on MJ) you are wrong.
Miller did it in 90, and it's difficult to me to remember some players who bite MJ on a whole game on a match up.
lasalle thompson scored 37 on MJ once, jordan has cruised on defense on many a occasion but he usually makes up for it by destroying them the next game.

it's no big deal really. if you burn him on a consistent basis though, thats something i would consider.

[necya]

lasalle thompson scored 37 on MJ once, jordan has cruised on defense on many a occasion but he usually makes up for it by destroying them the next game.

it's no big deal really. if you burn him on a consistent basis though, thats something i would consider.

yeah right, hardaway did it too in november 95.
i change a bit the subject cause like always some teenage have made the thread uninteresting.
Miller never put a 26pts season so he is worse...is people has watched the pacers played? the pacers played hard basketball, in very unselfish system. that wasn't their game to have a guy who takes 25 shots per game...does that mean miller wasn't able to score a lot? no.
people resume Miller as a 3pts shooter...damn, people know nothing.

[AirJordan23]

lasalle thompson scored 37 on MJ once, jordan has cruised on defense on many a occasion but he usually makes up for it by destroying them the next game.

it's no big deal really. if you burn him on a consistent basis though, thats something i would consider.
I'm assuming you mean LaBradford Smith because thompson was a back up center on those early 90s Pacer teams.

[hateraid]

Lol at you guys thinking Miller is this one trick pony.

Miller beat people off the fake, had spin moves, had a money floater, and finished very well. Miller had some crazy footwork.

Here's footage that's not just "3-pointers"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD41mGEhgU0

[jstern]

Times helps in forgetting things, but I'm getting flash backs of how clutch and annoying miller was. The guy was just a killer. I remember back in 2000 I turned on the TV and there was a playoff game on, Miller had like 40+ points and then he started hitting like 27 footers. Basically he was in the zone and at 27 feet he was wide open. I started liking Miller that game, the guy was just clutch and would get in the zone so much. I love Ray, but his shooting in the finals kind of ruin him for me a little. To me it's all about the mind, I just can't imagine Miller going into such a slump in such a big game, when I consider his facial expression of intense concentration that he used to get.

I forgot so many of those things about Miller, and unfortunately as time passes people are going to forget the little things about Allen, and any other player. It's just the way things are. Lebron, Kobe, Jordan, Jabbar, they're all going to be consider players who played in weak primitive eras in the opinions of future generations.

[bucks_ole]

Lol at you guys thinking Miller is this one trick pony.

Miller beat people off the fake, had spin moves, had a money floater, and finished very well. Miller had some crazy footwork.

Here's footage that's not just "3-pointers"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD41mGEhgU0

A common trend on these boards is people overrating current players and completely underrating older players, just due to the fact of plain ignorance. Lotta these kids just started watching over the past few years and feel like they're experts and just run their mouths.

/rant.

[AirJordan&Magic]

A common trend on these boards is people overrating current players and completely underrating older players, just due to the fact of plain ignorance. Lotta these kids just started watching over the past few years and feel like they're experts and just run their mouths.

/rant.

I agree. And I always laugh when people label Reggie Miller a one dimensional spot up shooter.
With that said, saying Reggie was easily better than Ray Allen is overrating Reggie as well.

I wish there more footage of Ray Allen during his Bucks days. The guy had one of the best offensive games in the league.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Ray Allen, and I don't even blink. Shame on anyone saying Reggie Miller in a land slide.

:oldlol:

[Pointguard]

Reggie was a major player - no question there. I just think if Ray Allen had systems where they consistently set double and triple picks this wouldn't be much of a conversation. Ray Allen was more resourceful and played well in a variety of different settings. His offensive game was much more complete. He proved he could play defense at the highest level. He's going to the HOF. Reggie will probably go as well but it is questionable.

[hateraid]

Again, how is Ray a much more complete player?
If Ray was so much better at putting the ball on the ground and getting to the hoop, why is it that during their peaks Reggie got to the line more than Ray?
On that same premise how is it if Ray is a better finisher that in their primes Reggie had a better FG%?
Other comments about Reggie that are false:
Reggie could not create his own space
- Reggie was one of the pioneers of having a stepback jump shot. One of the first players to utilize that at the 3-point lines
Reggie wasn't as athletic
- He may not have jumped as high but Reggie had unbeleivable control and core strength. He was absolutely amazing at taking contact and still had the ability to finish. Jumping high does not constitute athleticism.
Ray was the better leader
- Reggie led teams had more success than Ray led teams. I say the real Ray led teams was the Sonics whereas the Miller led Pacers hung with the Bulls and Knicks frequently and were always a threat. Miller led team 1 finals appearance, Ray led teams 0.

This thread is proof that opinion dominates more than facts. I really know now that most making comments about Reggie have really not seen him play.

This is not to say Reggie is miles ahead of Ray but most of the statements on here are just opinions. But I'd say Reggie is clearly better. Look at any NBA analysts top 10 SG and Reggie appears on every single one whereas Ray somehow gets outranked by Allen Iverson.

[FCN]

Ray is like Reggie 2.0

New and improved Reggie w/ handles and athleticism.

I really can't think of a single thing Reggie did better than a prime Ray Allen.

[hateraid]

Ray is like Reggie 2.0

New and improved Reggie w/ handles and athleticism.

I really can't think of a single thing Reggie did better than a prime Ray Allen.

Read above

[tpols]

Again, how is Ray a much more complete player?
If Ray was so much better at putting the ball on the ground and getting to the hoop, why is it that during their peaks Reggie got to the line more than Ray?
On that same premise how is it if Ray is a better finisher that in their primes Reggie had a better FG%?
Other comments about Reggie that are false:
Reggie could not create his own space
- Reggie was one of the pioneers of having a stepback jump shot. One of the first players to utilize that at the 3-point lines
Reggie wasn't as athletic
- He may not have jumped as high but Reggie had unbeleivable control and core strength. He was absolutely amazing at taking contact and still had the ability to finish. Jumping high does not constitute athleticism.
Ray was the better leader
- Reggie led teams had more success than Ray led teams. I say the real Ray led teams was the Sonics whereas the Miller led Pacers hung with the Bulls and Knicks frequently and were always a threat. Miller led team 1 finals appearance, Ray led teams 0.

This thread is proof that opinion dominates more than facts. I really know now that most making comments about Reggie have really not seen him play.

This is not to say Reggie is miles ahead of Ray but most of the statements on here are just opinions. But I'd say Reggie is clearly better. Look at any NBA analysts top 10 SG and Reggie appears on every single one whereas Ray somehow gets outranked by Allen Iverson.
repped for truth:applause:

[Flamboyant]

Again, how is Ray a much more complete player?
If Ray was so much better at putting the ball on the ground and getting to the hoop, why is it that during their peaks Reggie got to the line more than Ray?
On that same premise how is it if Ray is a better finisher that in their primes Reggie had a better FG%?
Other comments about Reggie that are false:
Reggie could not create his own space
- Reggie was one of the pioneers of having a stepback jump shot. One of the first players to utilize that at the 3-point lines
Reggie wasn't as athletic
- He may not have jumped as high but Reggie had unbeleivable control and core strength. He was absolutely amazing at taking contact and still had the ability to finish. Jumping high does not constitute athleticism.
Ray was the better leader
- Reggie led teams had more success than Ray led teams. I say the real Ray led teams was the Sonics whereas the Miller led Pacers hung with the Bulls and Knicks frequently and were always a threat. Miller led team 1 finals appearance, Ray led teams 0.

This thread is proof that opinion dominates more than facts. I really know now that most making comments about Reggie have really not seen him play.

This is not to say Reggie is miles ahead of Ray but most of the statements on here are just opinions. But I'd say Reggie is clearly better. Look at any NBA analysts top 10 SG and Reggie appears on every single one whereas Ray somehow gets outranked by Allen Iverson.

1. Reggie got a lot of free-throws for kicking his opponents in the act of shooting (literally a ridiculous number), which in today's game is an offensive foul. Of course he went to the line much more.

2. Allen Iverson >>>>> Ray Allen >>>>>> Reggie Miller

Reggie has made all NBA teams 3 times (all of them 3rd teams). And he didn't even have much competition. A sophomore Sprewell made the all-NBA 1st in 94, while Reggie didn't even make the 3rd. He was an all-star only 5 times. I hate when I'm here dissing some of my favorite players (I'm a big fan of all 3 of them), but Reggie is not even close to being the player you think he is. He was never considered among the best of the best. I don't mind people having weird rankings, in fact I think opinions shall differ way more than they do on this board, but the way some people rank him higher than Iverson (MVP, 4x Scoring Title, 3x all-NBA-1st) shows ignorance, and is laughable.

[stickfigure87]

miller time > jesus

[Samurai Swoosh]

Read above
Not much of it was accurate. This dude's description is verbatim and essentially the simplest way to explain why Jesus Shuttlesworth > Reggie Miller.

[Rasheed1]

Reggie Miller was a killer...


Ray Allen is not



What happened to Ray in the Finals? Reggie doesnt do that

[Samurai Swoosh]

What happened to Ray in the Finals? Reggie doesnt do that
Ray Allen was THE reason they won in 2008.

:oldlol:

[Simple Jack]

Ray Allen was THE reason they won in 2008.

:oldlol:
:facepalm

[west]

Reggie Miller was a killer...


Ray Allen is not



What happened to Ray in the Finals? Reggie doesnt do that
1/16 in game 1 of the Finals.

[shole]

Ray is definitely able to do more as a basketball player, but one thing is, Reggie was so clutch it was mental, so a lot of people including me will take that over everything else.

[dyna]

Ray Allen..

[magnax1]

Reggie is definitely the better shooter. Ray Allen has to take much more time to set up his shot, where Reggie could shot while basically still moving. Ray might have a more varied skill set, I'd still take Reggie. Probably easier to build around as a scorer because he could play off the ball so effectively.

[Jasper]

So with Ray Allen closing in on Reggie and with often times people comparing the two, I decided to bring up a thread both in anticipation of the record being broken and comparisons between the two.

Things like "who was the better defender", "better pure shooter", "better clutch", etc., etc.

Discuss.

Saw both players play in their primes...
Ray Allen I always considered soft , until he went to Seattle and took the bull by the nose and went to the hoop. I am sure George Karl to this day , wished he would of done that more often in Milwaukee .. and quite possibly they could of beat the 6'ers.
Ray as so many gifted players was and is a gifted shooter. His best defensive days was ironically playing against a fire ball in Iverson.
But even Allens defense overthe years had to evolve , because he as a young player never had good body control on the defensive end , and late prime he became an average defender.

Miller - was a different gifted athlete... on TV did not do that dude justice.
One of the first times I saw him play was at the old field house in Indy. (I was there on business for a seminar class) He was ungodly long and tall. He is a pupil of the game , and he learned probably most of his NBA know how from larry Brown. A typical offensive play for the Pacers , was at least two road block screens on the baseline for reggie to fight off his opponent , and no matter if he was 10 feet or 30 feet away when he got the ball . . if he was open by a foot , the ball would be shot and swish.
Lets put it this way ,Stockton to Malone was to Jackson to Reggie in the assist catagory :oldlol:
reggie's length istead of an advantage .. the opponents would post him up , because he was not build strong in the lower foundation .. so the best defense against Reggie was the opponent taking him down low.
Millers advantage was Smit's who to this day was and is under rated , because all the games I saw ... Brown should of gotten Smit's at least 20 touch's a game ..
I give Allen the nod to passing .. they are about equal.
Bottom line reggie was the first option on the pacers ... while I can not say that about Allen throughout his career... Maybe in Seattle .. and when he started in Milwaukee .. but it was not the big Dog that affected the first option role for Allen , I think it was Cassell.
Excuse my rambling -
Any case - Miller was the better player (who I never liked) :lol

[icewill36]

i would definitely take ray allen over reggie.

[Jasper]

1. Reggie got a lot of free-throws for kicking his opponents in the act of shooting (literally a ridiculous number), which in today's game is an offensive foul. Of course he went to the line much more.
Should we point out all faults of players to show we as posters are creditable ? :confusedshrug: (Hey if Reggie used this to his advantage - he is a winner
2. Allen Iverson >>>>> Ray Allen >>>>>> Reggie Miller I agree

Reggie has made all NBA teams 3 times (all of them 3rd teams). And he didn't even have much competition. A sophomore Sprewell made the all-NBA 1st in 94, while Reggie didn't even make the 3rd. He was an all-star only 5 times. I hate when I'm here dissing some of my favorite players (I'm a big fan of all 3 of them), but Reggie is not even close to being the player you think he is. He was never considered among the best of the best. I don't mind people having weird rankings, in fact I think opinions shall differ way more than they do on this board, but the way some people rank him higher than Iverson (MVP, 4x Scoring Title, 3x all-NBA-1st) shows ignorance, and is laughable.
Most fans on ISH never saw the real Allen Iverson's ... he was tough as they come in the NBA history books.. lets put it this way , , Alllen played his best defense against Iverson .. who still scored 30 or more points a game against ray ray.. Reggie would and could never of guarded Iverson.
Thread isnt about Iverson though .. to distinctly different SG's , but Miller gets the nod... We can not say Allen is the better player because he has a ring.

[Jasper]

i would definitely take ray allen over reggie.
A simple comment like this - I will answer this way :
one on one Reggie beats Allen... even with his poor defense.

[PowerGlove]

:facepalm
Having a game winner and playing excellent defense on Kobe for the majority of the game while leading them in scoring either three or two times is something to facepalm about?

[GiveItToBurrito]

Reggie was better as a defender, they were about equal as shooters, Reggie was a better scorer, and Ray Allen was a better passer. Reggie is one of the most underrated players in the last few decades, how many bad years did the Pacers have while he was there? A super-efficient scorer and great defender (6'7, long, quick, and he never got tired) like that is incredibly valuable.

[GiveItToBurrito]

Most fans on ISH never saw the real Allen Iverson's ... he was tough as they come in the NBA history books.. lets put it this way , , Alllen played his best defense against Iverson .. who still scored 30 or more points a game against ray ray.. Reggie would and could never of guarded Iverson.
Thread isnt about Iverson though .. to distinctly different SG's , but Miller gets the nod... We can not say Allen is the better player because he has a ring.

Allen's defense is important to bring up, even with the Celtics now, he's at best average. He was one of the poorer defenders in the league for a while, not really intense on that end and a bit undersized. Reggie was a pretty intense defender who was very tough and really really tall and long, which is the best thing you can be if you're defending jump shooters.

[Papaya Petee]

The funny part is, that Ray Allen is the better player, it's just that Reggie is so hyped up for his series vs Knicks and because he's a commentator that people automatically assume hes better.

Reggie is so overrated its insane.

[KoRn]

Most fans on ISH never saw the real Allen Iverson's ... he was tough as they come in the NBA history books.. lets put it this way , , Alllen played his best defense against Iverson .. who still scored 30 or more points a game against ray ray.. Reggie would and could never of guarded Iverson.
Thread isnt about Iverson though .. to distinctly different SG's , but Miller gets the nod... We can not say Allen is the better player because he has a ring.

neither ray allen nor iverson could stop reggie. none of those guys could guard each other.

[Flamboyant]

Most fans on ISH never saw the real Allen Iverson's ... he was tough as they come in the NBA history books.. lets put it this way , , Alllen played his best defense against Iverson .. who still scored 30 or more points a game against ray ray.. Reggie would and could never of guarded Iverson.
Thread isnt about Iverson though .. to distinctly different SG's , but Miller gets the nod... We can not say Allen is the better player because he has a ring.

I didn't bring up Iverson, the quote I was replying to was dismissing Ray being on par with Reggie, because Iverson is considered better than him. Being one of the biggest AI fans I felt like :facepalm

And if you want to know, Ray became better than Reggie in my eyes way before he joined the Celtics.

And the bold part of your quote: "Should we point out all faults of players to show we as posters are creditable ? (Hey if Reggie used this to his advantage - he is a winner"

Well, I didn't mean this as a bad thing neither. In fact that's one of the things I liked the most about Reggie. And generally I like it a lot when players get FTs by outsmarting their defenders. The guy was just making a claim to say Reggie had better handles/penetration ability because he got to the line more. It needed to be pointed cause it's actually guys who think Reggie has better handles that haven't watch him play.

Trust me I'm a big Reggie Miller fan. The sad thing is I'm an even bigger Ray Allen fan :D

[hateraid]

I didn't bring up Iverson, the quote I was replying to was dismissing Ray being on par with Reggie, because Iverson is considered better than him. Being one of the biggest AI fans I felt like :facepalm

And if you want to know, Ray became better than Reggie in my eyes way before he joined the Celtics.

And the bold part of your quote: "Should we point out all faults of players to show we as posters are creditable ? (Hey if Reggie used this to his advantage - he is a winner"

Well, I didn't mean this as a bad thing neither. In fact that's one of the things I liked the most about Reggie. And generally I like it a lot when players get FTs by outsmarting their defenders. The guy was just making a claim to say Reggie had better handles/penetration ability because he got to the line more. It needed to be pointed cause it's actually guys who think Reggie has better handles that haven't watch him play.

Claims? Hmmmm.
This coming from a guy who's basing his statements on bias(which you're admitting in the quote below). And you're speaking to a guy who's a huge Iverson fan from Philly. Everyone on the board knows that.
So basically you're saying Reggie Miller kicked his way into 7 freethrow attempts per game? For one, physically impossible to get away with and two, you're not giving enough credit to fans and refs.
FT attempts is a huge indicator of penetration, ESPECIALLY for a perimeter player. Exapmles today: Brandon Roy, Lebron James, Wade... Reggie attacked the basket quite frequently(you'd know if you'd actually seen him play). He had a variety of spin moves, fakes, step backs, handles isn't just the ability to cross over.
BTW, the peak of me watching/playing ball was in the 90's so before you "claim" something about me do your research.

Trust me I'm a big Reggie Miller fan. The sad thing is I'm an even bigger Ray Allen fan :D

Also you misquoted my Iverson thought completely.

[FCN]

Allen's defense is important to bring up, even with the Celtics now, he's at best average. He was one of the poorer defenders in the league for a while, not really intense on that end and a bit undersized. Reggie was a pretty intense defender who was very tough and really really tall and long, which is the best thing you can be if you're defending jump shooters.

This is not true at all. If anything Ray is an underrated defender. As for being undersized, since when is 6'5 undersized for a 2-guard?

[Jasper]

I didn't bring up Iverson, the quote I was replying to was dismissing Ray being on par with Reggie, because Iverson is considered better than him. Being one of the biggest AI fans I felt like :facepalm

And if you want to know, Ray became better than Reggie in my eyes way before he joined the Celtics.

And the bold part of your quote: "Should we point out all faults of players to show we as posters are creditable ? (Hey if Reggie used this to his advantage - he is a winner"

Well, I didn't mean this as a bad thing neither. In fact that's one of the things I liked the most about Reggie. And generally I like it a lot when players get FTs by outsmarting their defenders. The guy was just making a claim to say Reggie had better handles/penetration ability because he got to the line more. It needed to be pointed cause it's actually guys who think Reggie has better handles that haven't watch him play.

Trust me I'm a big Reggie Miller fan. The sad thing is I'm an even bigger Ray Allen fan :D
I got it .. thanks for explaining.

I think this is an excelent thread example of how ISH posters as fans look back on history , and current players or players that are fading into the sunset.
We sometimes forget or think some things occurred for reasons 10-15 years ago .. and when we look at it in perspective at 'todays' game ... many of the things that occurred when Ray ray and Reggie were playing would not be allowed. Karl Malone used the kick out tactic later .. all to access the free throw line.
We could even say Kobe does it with his jaw breaking elbow distoration... but that is a different topic.
Point is the game is still evolving because of the athletic players and how the NBA wants the game to be played.
Last few years those offensive fouls Shaq gets were never called in the late 90's and early 2000's ...
We're bantering each other over two great players in the league that quite frankly other than Ray Allens ring are basically on par with each other.
:cheers: to my fellow posters :applause:

[Jasper]

This is not true at all. If anything Ray is an underrated defender. As for being undersized, since when is 6'5 undersized for a 2-guard?

If we want to get technical about Allen , I can ... I have witnessed most of his career.
Where you come back with he is underrated is simply for the fact when he was in Milwaukee he was soft. Not super soft walk over , but below average as a defender. (this was a time when defense still ruled the league)
Allen is a gym rat workaolic ... and he drills himself on shots and foot work.
What he has done is recognized his limitations and started using that to his advantage. When he had legs .. he would sneak around a player ,or stop a player from penetration ... but what looks as a crafty defender .. is actually a player covering up his weaknesses. We all agree his defense improved while in Seattle and once joining the Celtic's in their championship year .. but he's at best an average defender.

[Pointguard]

Again, how is Ray a much more complete player?
If Ray was so much better at putting the ball on the ground and getting to the hoop, why is it that during their peaks Reggie got to the line more than Ray?
On that same premise how is it if Ray is a better finisher that in their primes Reggie had a better FG%?

Other comments about Reggie that are false:
Reggie could not create his own space
- Reggie was one of the pioneers of having a stepback jump shot. One of the first players to utilize that at the 3-point lines
People are saying they saw Reggie play but are saying things like this??? Reggie got to the line because he sold fouls hard and players often had to run over two or three picks to try to block him. Plus reggie pulled up quick and tried hard for the foul. Look at the video provided. If you actually think its because he was putting the ball down you did not see Reggie play.

Take any two youtube clips of these two players: Reggie's highlights are 80%+ assisted baskets. And that's the way it was. When they played the Knicks, Reggie at times would go thru seven picks before he would finally shed his man. That's why guys would get really frustrated with him. Bird talked trash too but his PF's and centers weren't brutalizing defenders. And all of the teams offensive resources were not dedicated to getting him open like they were doing for Reggie in Indiana. You could not be part of the Pacers and not be willing to set very solid picks for Reggie Miller. That was a very rare situation Miller had overthere.

If Ray Allen was getting those picks the FG% wouldn't even be close. If you are saying Miller finished better around the basket you also did not see Reggie play or you might be confusing Ray Allen with somebody else. Miller rarely dunked and frequently did a very soft layup. But he would most definitely prefer a pullup to avoid a contested layup. Even in his 18 year highlights you aren't going to see much of Reggie on the rim thing. Don't get me wrong, Reggie was all out deadly when the opportunity presented itself but alot of Reggie was an Indiana effort of four men to get him open.

Then I'm hearing this craziness about Ray Allen being soft one in his early years??? Hmmmmm, if I remember right the tougher Miller is in the HOF using a different bathroom. At least Ray Allen would dunk and take it to the hoop in his early days. Reggie would show true grit after like the third year. Reggie was great at times. But I do think a guys like Bowen, Artest and Cooper could shut Reggie down if he wasn't running behind four or five picks. I have no problem believing that at all. I seen Ray Allen go off on Bowen mano a mano in the playoffs when Bowen would shut out three other very good offensive players.

[hateraid]

People are saying they saw Reggie play but are saying things like this??? Reggie got to the line because he sold fouls hard and players often had to run over two or three picks to try to block him. Plus reggie pulled up quick and tried hard for the foul. Look at the video provided. If you actually think its because he was putting the ball down you did not see Reggie play.

By that theory then Reggie would have gotten to the line for three shots everytime. The picks were set to primarily free him up for 3-pointers. Don't you think the opponents would smarten up to that considering he was a 90% FT shooter? What most don't see because it wasn't displayed on youtube or typical Reggie highlights is that Reggie constantly got defenders to bite and he'd blow right by them. On the way to the basket he'd ocassionally use spin moves. Once he got to the rim, if he wasn't pulling a runner, he had the ability to get in the air, absorb contact and finish his shot. If you don't remember this aspect of his game then you haven't seen Reggie play


Take any two youtube clips of these two players: Reggie's highlights are 80%+ assisted baskets. And that's the way it was. When they played the Knicks, Reggie at times would go thru seven picks before he would finally shed his man. That's why guys would get really frustrated with him. Bird talked trash too but his PF's and centers weren't brutalizing defenders. And all of the teams offensive resources were not dedicated to getting him open like they were doing for Reggie in Indiana. You could not be part of the Pacers and not be willing to set very solid picks for Reggie Miller. That was a very rare situation Miller had overthere.

The youtube clips don't tell the whole story. They highlight what Reggie does best, which is take threes off picks. Just like the mojority Ray Allen highlights are 3's. Just like the majority of Dr.J highlights are dunks and swooping lay-ups. Does that mean All Ray can do is shoot and all Dr.J can do is dunk?


If Ray Allen was getting those picks the FG% wouldn't even be close. If you are saying Miller finished better around the basket you also did not see Reggie play or you might be confusing Ray Allen with somebody else.
Then don't you think the smart thing to do is consitantly make those plays if Allen could pull off higher than Reggie percentages? That would be smart coaching. It's not as easy as it looks.


Miller rarely dunked and frequently did a very soft layup. But he would most definitely prefer a pullup to avoid a contested layup. Even in his 18 year highlights you aren't going to see much of Reggie on the rim thing. Don't get me wrong, Reggie was all out deadly when the opportunity presented itself but alot of Reggie was an Indiana effort of four men to get him open.

Dunking doesn't constitue a good finisher. Parker is a good finisher, and if you want to get taller Brandon Roy finishes often without a thunderous dunk. finishing is scoring hence the high FG %. And for a guy who's 3point percentage was sometimes high thirties and his overall was over 50%, I'd say yeah good finisher. This was when his FG to 3pt was around 14/4.


Then I'm hearing this craziness about Ray Allen being soft one in his early years??? Hmmmmm, if I remember right the tougher Miller is in the HOF using a different bathroom. At least Ray Allen would dunk and take it to the hoop in his early days. Reggie would show true grit after like the third year. Reggie was great at times. But I do think a guys like Bowen, Artest and Cooper could shut Reggie down if he wasn't running behind four or five picks. I have no problem believing that at all. I seen Ray Allen go off on Bowen mano a mano in the playoffs when Bowen would shut out three other very good offensive players.

I've never claimed that, nor have I claimed that Ray was some sort of slouch. But the way people are talking about Miller is that all he was was a gunner, which was far from fact.

And like I said, I grew up watching ball in the early 90's. I grew up in the east coast during an era where the Sixers were terrible so I was force fed teams like NY, Indiana, Chicago, Orlando where there was more exposure. So yeah , I'm not limited to youtube clips, or documantary of analysts exposing the more memorable aspects of his game, which was chasing him around and clutch shooting. I did study the finer details in his game.

[SinJackal]

I really don't think you guys have seen Reggie if you're tossing him to the side so easily. Reggie and Charles may be goofy analysts now, but they were extremely good players.

I'd take Reggie over Ray every time. It's a good comparison, don't get me wrong. . .but Reggie had ice in his veins. I've seen Ray Allen choke a lot.


Hey Reggie, what do you think about Ray Allen's performance in the finals last season?


http://cdn.faniq.com/images/blog/miller_with_no_ball08.jpg

One good game. . .one average game, five horrible games. :\

I could never seriously take Allen over Reggie at any similar point in their careers.

[jstern]

It really doesn't matter who's better, but it just amazes me how players get discredited as time passes by. I know people dislike the rules of the current NBA, touch fouls, etc, but please don't confuse that with today's players. But again, it really doesn't matter because in a few years after Ray retires, future kids who never saw him play will also dismiss him even though they don't quite understand the essence of Ray Allen, just like they don't understand the essence of Reggie Miller. I couldn't think of a better word than essence. I'm not picking any players, I'm just commenting about the nature of things.

[Flamboyant]

Claims? Hmmmm.
This coming from a guy who's basing his statements on bias(which you're admitting in the quote below). And you're speaking to a guy who's a huge Iverson fan from Philly. Everyone on the board knows that.
So basically you're saying Reggie Miller kicked his way into 7 freethrow attempts per game? For one, physically impossible to get away with and two, you're not giving enough credit to fans and refs.
FT attempts is a huge indicator of penetration, ESPECIALLY for a perimeter player. Exapmles today: Brandon Roy, Lebron James, Wade... Reggie attacked the basket quite frequently(you'd know if you'd actually seen him play). He had a variety of spin moves, fakes, step backs, handles isn't just the ability to cross over.
BTW, the peak of me watching/playing ball was in the 90's so before you "claim" something about me do your research.


Also you misquoted my Iverson thought completely.

1st of: Lol at me basing my statements at bias. I don't try to gain fake credibility by saying saying I'm not a fan of no-one, so my opinion is 100% neutral. I like all 3 of these guys better than MJ, and Kobe. Doesn't mean I consider them better. SMH at people trying to hide the fact that they are fans of certain players in a basketball forum.

I didn't say Miller got all of his free-throws from that. In some seasons he probably got 1~1.5 FTA/G from them. And he wasn't "getting away" with anything, it was within the rules back then (up until 2004 if I'm not mistaken). And as I said earlier he's a winner for using it to his advantage.

Here are your exact quotes when I replied to you:


Again, how is Ray a much more complete player?
If Ray was so much better at putting the ball on the ground and getting to the hoop, why is it that during their peaks Reggie got to the line more than Ray?

When you say "putting the ball to the ground" it sounds like you're talking about penetration, cause you don't need to dribble in order to do a pump fake. I never said Reggie can't drive. But he wasn't as good as Ray at putting the ball to the ground. The reason he got more FTs is because he initiated more contact.


This is not to say Reggie is miles ahead of Ray but most of the statements on here are just opinions. But I'd say Reggie is clearly better. Look at any NBA analysts top 10 SG and Reggie appears on every single one whereas Ray somehow gets outranked by Allen Iverson.

I don't know what you wanted to say, but what you said here is: "If Ray wants to be considered better than Reggie, he needs to pass AI first, who is waayyy below Reggie as a player." Didn't really sound like an AI fan. :confusedshrug:

I'm not american, so I haven't seen lots of the analysts rankings, but ranking Reggie>>Iverson>>Ray is stupid. I can understand different opinions, and respect them. But either way Iverson should be ranked either higher than both of them, or lower then both. I don't think you can justify putting AI in the middle.


This thread is proof that opinion dominates more than facts. I really know now that most making comments about Reggie have really not seen him play.

And then there is this. The funny thing is I agree. Most of people commenting here haven't seen Reggie. But not all of them are picking Ray, in fact it's usually the other way around. People think that they know history better if they are picking always the older guy. I wasn't even going to reply to the thread in the first place, but people love bringing up stupid stuff to justify their opinion, which includes:

"Kobe trolls are trying so hard to put Miller down, to diminish the 90s"
"Ray Allen is more like Andrew Toney, than Reggie Miller"
"During most of his career Allen was a 3rd option. So Reggie"
"Reggie was better at mind games. Ray is a nice guy. So Reggie"

Some who have picked Reggie try to find the most unimportant aspect of the game where Reggie is better than Ray, and then use it as an end-all argument. Some obviously picked Reggie simply for the sake of defending the 90s in the era arguments. Should I even bother for the Toney comment??

Why is it that people not picking the older guy have to be people who haven't watch them. Some people make it sound like we're talking Jordan vs Mayo here.

[whatever666]

I really don't think you guys have seen Reggie if you're tossing him to the side so easily. Reggie and Charles may be goofy analysts now, but they were extremely good players.

I'd take Reggie over Ray every time. It's a good comparison, don't get me wrong. . .but Reggie had ice in his veins. I've seen Ray Allen choke a lot.


Hey Reggie, what do you think about Ray Allen's performance in the finals last season?


http://cdn.faniq.com/images/blog/miller_with_no_ball08.jpg

One good game. . .one average game, five horrible games. :\

I could never seriously take Allen over Reggie at any similar point in their careers.

^This

Reggie was just a killer... an assassin, a scud missile ready to launch when his team needed him the most and always came up.

I cant compare his killer instinct to anybody, its unmatched... and he was such a trashtalker, always backed up his mouth... he would go up to you and say "Look how your guy will choke now, then i will hit two 3PTers in a row and win the game".... then he will go and do it and then get back to talk trash even more showing his choke sign....

Reggies killer instinct i just cant compare to anybody, not even to Jordan or Bird, sure Bird and Jordan came close to but they were NOT more clutch than Reggie.... NOBODY WAS.... Jordan was only reknowned as more clutch simply because of his legacy!! But Reggie is the really most clutch, most deadly person at the last seconds..... thats the moments he lived for!!! He would for 18 years as a starting shooting guard for the Indiana Pacers hit always some kindof clutch shot / clutch shots / buzzer beaters / gamewinner every single game.

Reggie would conserve his energy in purpose entire game, having only 0 points just to explode his barrage of his entire reportoir at the last minutes/seconds of the game.... the guy was an animal.

Ray Allen is nothing but a pure shooter who took more FG attempts... nothing more. Ray Allen is in reality a poor mans Reggie Miller... the only advantage Ray Allen really had over Reggie was his athleticism... Ray Allen was really athletic and was in the dunk contest if i remember correctly.

[VishaltotheG]

Ray Allen is a first ballot HOFer, Reggie is a second ballot HOFer.

/thread

[hateraid]

1st of: Lol at me basing my statements at bias. I don't try to gain fake credibility by saying saying I'm not a fan of no-one, so my opinion is 100% neutral. I like all 3 of these guys better than MJ, and Kobe. Doesn't mean I consider them better. SMH at people trying to hide the fact that they are fans of certain players in a basketball forum.

Fair enough, but you did state that you were more of a Ray fan maikng all your statements appear more bias


I didn't say Miller got all of his free-throws from that. In some seasons he probably got 1~1.5 FTA/G from them. And he wasn't "getting away" with anything, it was within the rules back then (up until 2004 if I'm not mistaken). And as I said earlier he's a winner for using it to his advantage.

Fair enough. I still say 1 per games is still high. 1 out of every 3 games is more realistic. Even at 1.5 per game he still got to the line more than Ray.




Here are your exact quotes when I replied to you:



When you say "putting the ball to the ground" it sounds like you're talking about penetration, cause you don't need to dribble in order to do a pump fake. I never said Reggie can't drive. But he wasn't as good as Ray at putting the ball to the ground. The reason he got more FTs is because he initiated more contact.

In terms of isolation Reggie couldn't shake someone, but he did have good control while attcking the hoop. He just rarely had to use it. Just like Magic rarely used the hook shot. But some regard Magivc as having the second greatest hookshot of all time. He didn't back people down and utilize it because that's not what he was most effective with, but it was there. Plus ball handling can be measured in different ways. I'd say AI is a great ball handler, but Brandon Roy is just as good in a different way. One uses it to beat people off dribbles, the other to get in between people. Rggie was more the latter. Not saying it was the greatest ever but it was there. Posters are saying he didn't have it.



I don't know what you wanted to say, but what you said here is: "If Ray wants to be considered better than Reggie, he needs to pass AI first, who is waayyy below Reggie as a player." Didn't really sound like an AI fan. :confusedshrug:



I'm not american, so I haven't seen lots of the analysts rankings, but ranking Reggie>>Iverson>>Ray is stupid. I can understand different opinions, and respect them. But either way Iverson should be ranked either higher than both of them, or lower then both. I don't think you can justify putting AI in the middle.

What I was saying is that we have to respect the views of expert opinions and when the majority of experts put Reggie in the top ten and AI is ocassionally in the bottom half and Allen barely outranks him. I'm saying you'd have to rank Allen ahead of aI for him to sniff a top ten ranking.


And then there is this. The funny thing is I agree. Most of people commenting here haven't seen Reggie. But not all of them are picking Ray, in fact it's usually the other way around. People think that they know history better if they are picking always the older guy. I wasn't even going to reply to the thread in the first place, but people love bringing up stupid stuff to justify their opinion, which includes:

"Kobe trolls are trying so hard to put Miller down, to diminish the 90s"
"Ray Allen is more like Andrew Toney, than Reggie Miller"
"During most of his career Allen was a 3rd option. So Reggie"
"Reggie was better at mind games. Ray is a nice guy. So Reggie"

Fair enough, but the one thing that was the trend in this thread is that the people who picked Reggie put together a more fact based assessment whereas the people who picked Ray had either no assessment or a false one. "Reggie was not athletic", not true, "Reggie is too one dimesnsional", also false. This is why I discredit most statements. The fact is people haven't seen Reggie so that's where stats have to brought in. Sure they don't tell the story, but it certainly explains more than alot and puts it more into perspective.

Plus my statement comparing Ray to Toney was actually a huge compliment as I hold Toney in very high regards. Thier careers may have not paralleled but thier skillset and success did. Given if Toney was not injured, drafted by a team where he'd be a first option then traded to the Julius/Big Mo Sixers we'd be seeing a carbon copy in Allen.


Some who have picked Reggie try to find the most unimportant aspect of the game where Reggie is better than Ray, and then use it as an end-all argument. Some obviously picked Reggie simply for the sake of defending the 90s in the era arguments. Should I even bother for the Toney comment??

Why is it that people not picking the older guy have to be people who haven't watch them. Some people make it sound like we're talking Jordan vs Mayo here.
Well it's like that in every player vs. player thread. I think it would be better just to declare who you like better than to actually argue who IS better if you don't have a clue.
And I agree, most people take the older guy because most do live in the past. I'm moslty defending myself in this case because i was being completely unbias and the statements people were making were false.

[Kurosawa0]

Ray Allen is a first ballot HOFer, Reggie is a second ballot HOFer.

/thread

Reggie will get in on the first ballot.

[Pointguard]

By that theory then Reggie would have gotten to the line for three shots everytime. The picks were set to primarily free him up for 3-pointers. Don't you think the opponents would smarten up to that considering he was a 90% FT shooter? What most don't see because it wasn't displayed on youtube or typical Reggie highlights is that Reggie constantly got defenders to bite and he'd blow right by them.
Yeah Reggie did this when he got hot. I said that much. But he would blow by them for the pull up jumper. And frequently he would pull up short to get contact. But still, most of the time this was after several picks.


On the way to the basket he'd ocassionally use spin moves. Once he got to the rim, if he wasn't pulling a runner, he had the ability to get in the air, absorb contact and finish his shot. If you don't remember this aspect of his game then you haven't seen Reggie play.

Reggie himself, will say during broadcast that Ray was better off the dribble and that he was better off of the pick. He says it often.



The youtube clips don't tell the whole story. They highlight what Reggie does best, which is take threes off picks. Just like the mojority Ray Allen highlights are 3's. Just like the majority of Dr.J highlights are dunks and swooping lay-ups.
Actually almost all of Ray's video highlight films have a lot drives and dunks. But that's besides the point.


Then don't you think the smart thing to do is consitantly make those plays if Allen could pull off higher than Reggie percentages? That would be smart coaching. It's not as easy as it looks.

Very rarely do teams exhaust their whole personnel for another player but the Indiana situation was a bit different. Reggie was lucky to have the Davis guys who were excellent in setting picks (another one of the big man skills that guys rarely have today). You have to have guys on the team that are ready to sacrifice like that and a coach that is okay with it flowing like that. The league had a lot of great shooters in Reggie's prime (Drazen, Dell Curry, Chuck Person, etc) but Miller was the only one getting that type of team support.



I've never claimed that, nor have I claimed that Ray was some sort of slouch. But the way people are talking about Miller is that all he was was a gunner, which was far from fact.
LOL, who you telling. I was at several Garden games when he killed my teams. He did it with dunks too. Big games Miller was the man - mainly against the Knicks. I just thought he was the beneficiary of a system designed for a shooter moreso than Ray Allen was. And I wasn't addressing you at this time - that was meant for somebody else.


And like I said, I grew up watching ball in the early 90's. I grew up in the east coast during an era where the Sixers were terrible so I was force fed teams like NY, Indiana, Chicago, Orlando where there was more exposure. So yeah , I'm not limited to youtube clips, or documantary of analysts exposing the more memorable aspects of his game, which was chasing him around and clutch shooting. I did study the finer details in his game.
Well I can tell. They both got game. Ray Allen is a sure in for the Hall of Fame I don't know if Reggie is tho.

[LA_Showtime]

They'll probably end up very close to each other. Ray Allen is the better player, but Reggie has more memorable moments. Allen, while considered clutch to some, also has a tendency to disappear in big games.

[wang4three]

I'd take Ray. As an overall player, I think he's got more to offer to the table.