Can Kobe surpass MJ's #3 on the all-time scoring list?

[triangleoffense]

This way he will have the most points scored for a guard.

[KenneBell]

I definitely think he can score 6500 points over the next 4 seasons or maybe less.

[G-Funk]

I definitely think he can score 6500 points over the next 4 seasons or maybe less.


He can do it in 3 years

[ImmortalD24]

I doubt it... but w/e

[Disaprine]

He can do it in 3 years
+1

[guy]

I'm sure he will. It will take him about 4 seasons, and I doubt he won't play at least that. Another reason I think he will play that much and surpass Jordan's total in the process is cause I highly doubt Kobe would end his career without that achievement.

[Se]

This is something Kobe will beat Jordan at.... Kobe would also make a better GM.

[necya]

He can do it in 3 years

only in your dream basic fan.

he will need 4 seasons, so it's possible but not done.

[triangleoffense]

So I guess the consensus is that he will definitely get this done? This is a little-mind blowing.. players must have much long careers because even when Kobe was three-peating with Shaq I couldn't even imagine him surpassing MJ at anything.

[PowerGlove]

So I guess the consensus is that he will definitely get this done? This is a little-mind blowing.. players must have much long careers because even when Kobe was three-peating with Shaq I couldn't even imagine him surpassing MJ at anything.

He will break surpass MJ in 18 total seasons of play according to some in this thread.

It took MJ 15 seasons to amass those numbers. That is baller.:oldlol: :bowdown:

[necya]

So I guess the consensus is that he will definitely get this done? This is a little-mind blowing.. players must have much long careers because even when Kobe was three-peating with Shaq I couldn't even imagine him surpassing MJ at anything.

not for me, when i saw the ball hog growing up in him and with his young age, i thought he will be on the top scoring list.
and without injury, he should be the 3rd of it...

[guy]

So I guess the consensus is that he will definitely get this done? This is a little-mind blowing.. players must have much long careers because even when Kobe was three-peating with Shaq I couldn't even imagine him surpassing MJ at anything.

It would end up taking him like 18 seasons to do it. I wouldn't be surprised to see Lebron James and/or Kevin Durant do the same thing.

[G-Funk]

He will break surpass MJ in 18 total seasons of play according to some in this thread.

It took MJ 15 seasons to amass those numbers. That is baller.:oldlol: :bowdown:


That's because Jordan averaged nearly 23(22.9) shots per game, Kobe has averaged 19.3 shots per game. If you wanna add Kobe's first 3 years to diminish him, then you must be willing to remove them so he's career stats will be 28 5 5 compared to Jordans 30 6 5

[PowerGlove]

That's because Jordan averaged 22.9 shots per game, Kobe has averaged 19.3 shots per game. If you wanna add Kobe's first 3 years, then you can also remove them so he's career stats will be 28 5 5
:wtf:

How can you remove three seasons and then label those stats career? Career is the whole thing, not just spliced seasons to make your line look better.

[Bring-Your-Js]

That's because Jordan averaged 22.9 shots per game, Kobe has averaged 19.3 shots per game. If you wanna add Kobe's first 3 years, then you can also remove them so he's career stats will be 28 5 5

This.

How ironic the typical FGA argument against Kobe comes back to bite them in the ass. Two can play.

[guy]

That's because Jordan averaged 22.9 shots per game, Kobe has averaged 19.3 shots per game. If you wanna add Kobe's first 3 years, then you can also remove them so he's career stats will be 28 5 5

He also took better shots, shot more efficiently, was better at getting to the free throw line, etc. What do you mean "if you wanna add Kobe's first 3 years?" Do those not count?

[Bodhi]

He also took better shots, shot more efficiently, was better at getting to the free throw line, etc. What do you mean "if you wanna add Kobe's first 3 years?" Do those not count?

Because Kobe was drafted onto a team with 2 all star guards and didn't get much playing time until Phil Jackson started coaching. If he was drafted onto an actual lottery team then his career stats would look much better.

[TheLogo]

I believe Jordan has led the league in Field Goal Attempts multiple times in his career. He did that for many seasons.

Kobe has led the league in field goal attempts for only one season.

I have made a thread about this and the mods decided to delete it. :facepalm

[G-Funk]

:wtf:

How can you remove three seasons and then label those stats career? Career is the whole thing, not just spliced seasons to make your line look better.

Double standards, huh?:rolleyes:

[Horatio33]

That's because Jordan averaged nearly 23(22.9) shots per game, Kobe has averaged 19.3 shots per game. If you wanna add Kobe's first 3 years to diminish him, then you must be willing to remove them so he's career stats will be 28 5 5 compared to Jordans 30 6 5

Jordan made over 50% of shots over his career. Kobe 45%. so even if Kobe shot the same amount of shots he would average less points.

He probably will have more points than MJ, but that doesn't mean he is the better player. K Malone has the second most be he is boarderline top 15.

[PowerGlove]

Double standards, huh?:rolleyes:
WHAT?

Is this guy serious? :oldlol:

You make absolutely no sense. I'm not fixing stats to make a point here, I'm telling you them exactly as they are. It wasn't even a negative comment, I was just responding to the guy I quoted. Why you have to come up with this bullshit....the answer will always escape me.

[mayo'sgrizz]

I doubt it... but w/e

how do u figure tht he wont... he is very well condition and just turned 32. he can and will def do this. its just a matter of will it take 3 or 4 yrs to do it

[G-Funk]

Jordan made over 50% of shots over his career. Kobe 45%. so even if Kobe shot the same amount of shots he would average less points.

He probably will have more points than MJ, but that doesn't mean he is the better player. K Malone has the second most be he is boarderline top 15.


If both players averaged 30 PG and took the same amount of shot,It would actually mean that Jordan only made only 2 more buckets then Kobe.

As to your second point. Kareem's long career helps his case for GOAT. Then it should also help Kobe's.

[mayo'sgrizz]

K Malone has the second most be he is boarderline top 15.

karl malone is most fuggin definitely in the top 15 no boarderline needed

[necya]

That's because Jordan averaged nearly 23(22.9) shots per game, Kobe has averaged 19.3 shots per game. If you wanna add Kobe's first 3 years to diminish him, then you must be willing to remove them so he's career stats will be 28 5 5 compared to Jordans 30 6 5

hey moron, okay remove his first 3 years, then calculate his FGA average now...thank you.
and what were their FGM average please? the FG% ? okay.

thing who could be more reasonnable is to take MJ without his ankle broken and without his first retirement. add 2000pts for the 85-86 season, 2500 for the 93-94 season and 2000 for the 94-95 season (have i to precise he missed 2 years of his prime? )
it would give us MJ at first place, according that abdul-jabbar not really missed lot of games, that is incredible when you look at the number of seasons he played.

[griffmoney2084]

That's because Jordan averaged nearly 23(22.9) shots per game, Kobe has averaged 19.3 shots per game. If you wanna add Kobe's first 3 years to diminish him, then you must be willing to remove them so he's career stats will be 28 5 5 compared to Jordans 30 6 5


its way more impressive that a guy with 4 less shots a game can pass jordan in totall points by the age of 34


means kobe is more consistantly great and important to the game of basketball

[KG215]

As to your second point. Kareem's long career helps his case for GOAT. Then it should also help Kobe's.

No, his 6 MVP's, 6 Championships, 10 All-NBA 1st teams, 2 Finals MVPs, and his 4 or 5 seasons that rank up there with the all-time best statistical seasons in NBA history helps KAJ's case for GOAT. Kobe's resume doesn't hold a candle to Kareem's.

[griffmoney2084]

No, his 6 MVP's, 6 Championships, 10 All-NBA 1st teams, 2 Finals MVPs, and his 4 or 5 seasons that rank up there with the all-time best statistical seasons in NBA history helps KAJ's case for GOAT. Kobe's resume doesn't hold a candle to Kareem's.

kobe will have more championships, more all nba 1st teams, more finals mvps and waaay more memorable a career

and his mvps dont count the same as todays cause they were player voted

if the players voted mvp kobe would have 6+ too

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa280/cashforcards/cdsq.jpg

[PowerGlove]

kobe will have more championships, more all nba 1st teams, more finals mvps and waaay more memorable a career

and his mvps dont count the same as todays cause they were player voted

if the players voted mvp kobe would have 6+ too
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[DuMa]

pretty sure he is going to do it in 5+ years. but its meaningless.

[griffmoney2084]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

whats so funny? he needs 3 more 1st teams

1 more finals mvp

2 more rings

and no one remembers kareems seasons except 60 year olds


and every player interview or vote ive seen over the past 10 years has had them worshipping kobe worse than most kobe fans on ISH

the player vote for mvp rarely took team record into consideration. it was known as the leagues best player award back when they voted

[G-Funk]

No, his 6 MVP's, 6 Championships, 10 All-NBA 1st teams, 2 Finals MVPs, and his 4 or 5 seasons that rank up there with the all-time best statistical seasons in NBA history helps KAJ's case for GOAT. Kobe's resume doesn't hold a candle to Kareem's.


Not even if he wins 7 Championships 13 All-NBA 1st teams, 4 Finals MVP and 11 All-time defensive team with an offensive game that has No weakness. Kobe is bearly 32 and your making it seem that he's resume is completed.

[griffmoney2084]

didnt a vote from over 100 thousand fans on espn.com have the public perception of kobe as

----> 3rd best player ever only behind michael jordan and magic johnson <--------



anyone have the link to that?

in fans eyes kobe already is better all time than kareem.

[griffmoney2084]

kobe is waaay closer to the finish line than most people seem to realise on this forum


and by that i mean he only needs 1 more of this, 1 more of that, a few more of these and just overall good health to accomplish GOAT status

[Bring-Your-Js]

Not even if he wins 7 Championships 13 All-NBA 1st teams, 4 Finals MVP and 11 All-time defensive team with an offensive game that has No weakness. Kobe is bearly 32 and your making it seem that he's resume is completed..

No, they're just pathetic.

Who has said it would make him better than MJ? Lmao @ all the sensitive little douche bags and their bullshit rhetoric. Thus far, Kobe has averaged 1.3070802 points per FGA; Jordan 1.3160533.

Why don't you give credit for what would be a ridiculous accomplishment instead of fretting over how it compares to MJay? You don't score that many points without being ridiculously great, consistently for an extended period of time. What is Your Problem? :lol:

[Monkey D Dragon]

This way he will have the most points scored for a guard.


Kobe will pass MJ with Breeze on this one.

Kobe will pass Malone as well

[Monkey D Dragon]

kobe is waaay closer to the finish line than most people seem to realise on this forum


and by that i mean he only needs 1 more of this, 1 more of that, a few more of these and just overall good health to accomplish GOAT status

No One will pass MJ as GOAT

Does not matter How many ring/accomplishment they have

Maybe in 100 years someone might with 10 rings, 10 MVP and 10 Finals MVP

[griffmoney2084]

No One will pass MJ as GOAT

Does not matter How many ring/accomplishment they have

Maybe in 100 years someone might with 10 rings, 10 MVP and 10 Finals MVP


keep thinking that :roll:

kobe could verry well luck out another 2 straight with this team as deap as it is

kobe would have a 4 peat ( something jordan doesnt have )

he would have 7 rings ( something jordan doesnt have )

and he would have more points and playoff points, more 1st teams offense and defense, an 81 point game and would be fresh in peoples memorys

[G-Funk]

didnt a vote from over 100 thousand fans on espn.com have the public perception of kobe as

----> 3rd best player ever only behind michael jordan and magic johnson <--------



anyone have the link to that?

in fans eyes kobe already is better all time than kareem.


http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i16/Qu3en06/rank2.jpg

[Monkey D Dragon]

keep thinking that :roll:

kobe could verry well luck out another 2 straight with this team as deap as it is

kobe would have a 4 peat ( something jordan doesnt have )

he would have 7 rings ( something jordan doesnt have )

and he would have more points and playoff points, more 1st teams offense and defense, an 81 point game and would be fresh in peoples memorys


Please you don't need to tell me all this I think I know where Kobe belongs.
Kobe is right under Jordan and always will be if you ever watch Jordan play.

Lets not go there with something Jordan does not have because I can go all day with that and the funny thing is whatever ur talking about it still has not been done yet so keep on dreaming.

Oh by the way I do want Kobe to win next two Rings in a row but MJ will always be on TOP.

[asd]

http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/The-Greatest-of-All-Time-595x676.jpg

[griffmoney2084]

http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/The-Greatest-of-All-Time-595x676.jpg


still wonderring when this will have accurate 1st team awards


:roll:

[G-Funk]

^^^ Damn, Kobe is not doing that bad, considering he's still not done and the fact that he started his first 2 yrs off the bench. btw I think Kobe made more money then MJ this year and a lot of those awards like dunk contest and rookie of the year don't messure a players greatness. Also Kobe doesn't have half those sponsers

[griffmoney2084]

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa280/cashforcards/dwwq.jpg

took out the stuff that doesnt matter

scoring titles = losing 99% of the time

just showed how much of a hog jordan was that he wanted to lead the league even with great all around teams

[G-Funk]

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i16/Qu3en06/The-Greatest-of-All-Time-595x676.jpg

[DixieNourmous]

Kobe will play till he passes MJ. >book it<

http://chzgifs.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/youknow_sg.gif

[Psileas]

A lot of junk in this thread, but let's comment on this thing about Kareem:


kobe will have more championships

Irrelevant, even if he manages so. Kobe is not going to have title runs as dominant as Kareem in '71 or '80.


more all nba 1st teams

He needs 3 more such all-NBA teams, which means that he'll need to be All-1st team at the age of 34-35. I wouldn't bet on it. It still won't mean much. Kareem was a center (meaning that only 1 such position was available for each team, and this with plenty of competition - Kareem managed to beat Hakeem in 1986, at the age of 39), plus, Karl Malone, a non-GOAT candidate, is the all-time leader in this category.


and waaay more better recorded a career

Fixed.


and his mvps dont count the same as todays cause they were player voted

if the players voted mvp kobe would have 6+ too

However, Kobe has only 1 MVP and Kareem wouldn't have only 1 MVP, even if the voting panels consisted only of people like RealGM's Jordan'sBulls.

Kareem deserved all the MVP's he won, except maybe 1976. In 1971, he'd be the winner in any case. Same in 1972. Actually, if voters were more impartial, he would win easier than he did. Same in 1974, 1977 and 1980. Easily the best player of each year. In 1977, you might argue Walton, but Kareem would still be the favorite.


and no one remembers kareems seasons except 60 year olds

1) Kareem's era had no Internet/internationally extensive sport networks, etc.
2) Not many outside the ages of 10-30 really deal with Kobe's seasons, either. A lot of my relatives who watched Kareem and Magic live surely don't.
3) Call back in around 2040, when Kobe's generation will be as old as Kareem's generation and we'll see how many youngsters will remember Kobe's seasons.


the player vote for mvp rarely took team record into consideration. it was known as the leagues best player award back when they voted

Is this why Russell won 5 MVP's in his career or Wilt didn't win the 1962 and 1963 MVP's, but he did win the MVP's of '66-'68, when his team posted the league's best records?
With the exception of 1 MVP season alone, Kareem led his team to either the best or one of the best records in the league in every season he won the MVP.

[guy]

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa280/cashforcards/dwwq.jpg

took out the stuff that doesnt matter

scoring titles = losing 99% of the time

just showed how much of a hog jordan was that he wanted to lead the league even with great all around teams

What? LOL He had one losing season as the scoring champ and won the scoring title in all 6 of his championship seasons. What the hell are you talking about?

[guy]

kobe will have more championships, more all nba 1st teams, more finals mvps and waaay more memorable a career

and his mvps dont count the same as todays cause they were player voted

if the players voted mvp kobe would have 6+ too

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa280/cashforcards/cdsq.jpg

Players were NEVER voting for MVPs during Jordan's day. It was always the media.

[RaceBannana]

Definitely he can, but it will take him more than 3-4 years, id say 5 at least.

[guy]

Because Kobe was drafted onto a team with 2 all star guards and didn't get much playing time until Phil Jackson started coaching. If he was drafted onto an actual lottery team then his career stats would look much better.

So we're supposed to excuse Kobe for not being able to start over the likes of Eddie Jones and Nick Van Exel? Really? I don't care if he was just out of high school. This is Eddie Jones and Nick Van Exel, not Clyde Drexler and Isiah Thomas. For someone who's supposed to be that great, it shouldn't matter. In fact, for someone who's supposed to be that great, he shouldn't have any excuses made for something as small as being a starter.

[SinJackal]

Kobe will surpass MJ. The odds of him retiring before he does are less than 1%.

Odds of Kobe retiring within a season after passing his total points: over 50%.

I don't have any doubts he'll pass MJ's total points.

That said, it just means he played longer. Jordan chose to not play when he didn't play, he wasn't forced out or unable to play. This includes two prime years where he would've accumulated enough points to be way out of Kobe's realistic reach like he in already in most categories. He's averaged way more PPG, on better efficiancy.

Total points for Kobe won't mean much in their comparison due to Jordan's superior averages.



What? LOL He had one losing season as the scoring champ and won the scoring title in all 6 of his championship seasons. What the hell are you talking about?

Don't sweat it, everyone knows he has no credibility, and don't put any stock into what he says.

[Big#50]

keep thinking that :roll:

kobe could verry well luck out another 2 straight with this team as deap as it is

kobe would have a 4 peat ( something jordan doesnt have )

he would have 7 rings ( something jordan doesnt have )

and he would have more points and playoff points, more 1st teams offense and defense, an 81 point game and would be fresh in peoples memorys
Jordan would have won 8 in a row had he not retired. What's your point? Kobe will never surpass MJ. No matter what he does. He can't get better. We've seen his prime and it wasn't beter than Jordans. Even if he wins more rings it will mean nothing because that's a team effort. He also has the most talent on any team in the league. Stats and accolades only take you so far. Anyone with working eyes knows MJ> Kobe. Its not even up for debate. Michael Jordan will never be matched by another guard. Never will we see someone as great as him. 04 and 08 finals showed that Kobe just isn't on the level of Jordan. Kobe is great but when compared to his airness, he isn't close.

[barbaroi]

Definitely he can, but it will take him more than 3-4 years, id say 5 at least.
:wtf: So you think he's only going to be scoring 16 ppg? Because that's how little he would need to score to get 6500 points in 5 years of games. If he averages 26.4 ppg for 3 years, he will pass MJ.

[barbaroi]

Kobe will surpass MJ. The odds of him retiring before he does are less than 1%.

Odds of Kobe retiring within a season after passing his total points: over 50%.

I don't have any doubts he'll pass MJ's total points.

That said, it just means he played longer. Jordan chose to not play when he didn't play, he wasn't forced out or unable to play. This includes two prime years where he would've accumulated enough points to be way out of Kobe's realistic reach like he in already in most categories. He's averaged way more PPG, on better efficiancy.

Total points for Kobe won't mean much in their comparison due to Jordan's superior averages.

Actually, kobe hasn't played longer than Jordan just yet. He still is 4000 minutes played short of MJ. By the time he passes Jordan he will probably be around 2500-3000 minutes above jordan, so about 1 season's worth of minutes, which is really not all that bad. Sure Jordan's pace was quicker, but he didn't stick around long enough for it. Just like people say you can't prop Kobe's career averages up by taking away the fact that he didn't start right away, so too you can't prop up Jordan's career totals by ignoring the fact that he quit twice in the middle of his career.

[griffmoney2084]

What? LOL He had one losing season as the scoring champ and won the scoring title in all 6 of his championship seasons. What the hell are you talking about?

scoring titles are reserved for hogs on losing teams going based on the history of the honor

like i said... jordan just proved how much of a hog he was because he still wanted to win the "losers title" even when he had the team mates to share the load offensively

he hogged when he didnt need to

would be like kobe chucking 25 times a game with the team mates he has now

he would be trashed by the media

[griffmoney2084]

Jordan would have won 8 in a row had he not retired. What's your point? Kobe will never surpass MJ. No matter what he does. He can't get better. We've seen his prime and it wasn't beter than Jordans. Even if he wins more rings it will mean nothing because that's a team effort. He also has the most talent on any team in the league. Stats and accolades only take you so far. Anyone with working eyes knows MJ> Kobe. Its not even up for debate. Michael Jordan will never be matched by another guard. Never will we see someone as great as him. 04 and 08 finals showed that Kobe just isn't on the level of Jordan. Kobe is great but when compared to his airness, he isn't close.


wrong

jordans retirement gave the bulls the chance to add players for a second run


if jordan stayed for 94 and all of 95,,they probly dont get kukoc, rodman, harper etc...

and the excuse that he didnt have time to get ready for the playoffs is stupid.... he dropped 55 in MSG,,, so if he was good enough to do that he woulda been good enough to do it months after that

[barbaroi]

scoring titles are reserved for hogs on losing teams going based on the history of the honor

like i said... jordan just proved how much of a hog he was because he still wanted to win the "losers title" even when he had the team mates to share the load offensively

he hogged when he didnt need to

would be like kobe chucking 25 times a game with the team mates he has now

he would be trashed by the media
Doesn't mean the media would be right to do so. If you can score with volume and efficiency, do it. Kobe was still averaging 30.4 and leading the league in scoring through January 1st last year. If he had stayed healthy, he had a very good shot at the scoring title. It's not a "loser's award".

[rivas]

Obvious homer is obvious

[Big#50]

wrong

jordans retirement gave the bulls the chance to add players for a second run


if jordan stayed for 94 and all of 95,,they probly dont get kukoc, rodman, harper etc...

and the excuse that he didnt have time to get ready for the playoffs is stupid.... he dropped 55 in MSG,,, so if he was good enough to do that he woulda been good enough to do it months after that
Jordan>Kobe. Its not close.
Jordan came back and looked stiff and rusty. The 55 point game only adds to his greatness. Rusty as hell but still scores 55. Wow! Anyone with a brain can see that wasn't MJ. His shot was off and his ball handling was gone. Trolls will be trolls.

[SinJackal]

Actually, kobe hasn't played longer than Jordan just yet. He still is 4000 minutes played short of MJ. By the time he passes Jordan he will probably be around 2500-3000 minutes above jordan, so about 1 season's worth of minutes, which is really not all that bad. Sure Jordan's pace was quicker, but he didn't stick around long enough for it. Just like people say you can't prop Kobe's career averages up by taking away the fact that he didn't start right away, so too you can't prop up Jordan's career totals by ignoring the fact that he quit twice in the middle of his career.

I didn't say Kobe's played longer. I said when he does pass him, it doesn't mean anything except that he played longer. Is Kobe past him now? No. Hence, why my comment was that when he does get past him it just means that he would've played longer.

As for that minutes nonsense, Jordan's barely played a season extra in minutes currently. Kobe's going to need far more than an extra season of minutes (which is little more than a clever way of trying to pass off the fact that Kobe has a far worse PPG and FG%). While Kobe is at least 3 seasons away from passing him in points. That means his minutes played by time he exceeds Jordan's points will be close to 2 total seasons anyway.

Or you could take it a step further. Jordan's averaged 0.787 points per minute. Kobe's averaged only 0.690 points per minute. That means Jordan's PPM is literally 14% better than Kobe's. This of course, excludes the fact that Jordan had better defense, and was more efficiant in his scoring, as well as a better volume scorer that that stat proves. You can even get a near exact minutes total Kobe should have by time he passes Jordan, based on his career average thus far, and see that Kobe would have nearly 6,000 more minutes played (and far more games played), than Jordan did at those current points, meaning it would've taken him more than two extra seasons just to match him. . .not this hilarious 2,500-3,000 nonsense you pulled out of thin air.

I'm not proping up Jordan's career totals. His averages are clearly much better than Kobe's across the board, making a small amount of points above him in far more games by Kobe insignificant, as Jordan was the more efficiant scorer while also being the better volume scorer, better scorer per minute, and better defender (2nd most steals ever, and highest BPG by a guard ever).

I'm not worried about the comparison at all. Having watched both players, it's clear who's better. On top of that, Jordan's stats are almost all better than Kobe's. Far more extra time played by Kobe doesn't change the fact that Jordan did far more in far less time.

If you wanna talk about non statistical stuff, then feel free, since that's harder to disprove. But Jordan has Kobe beat in stats, you can't really argue it at all.

[guy]

scoring titles are reserved for hogs on losing teams going based on the history of the honor

like i said... jordan just proved how much of a hog he was because he still wanted to win the "losers title" even when he had the team mates to share the load offensively

he hogged when he didnt need to

would be like kobe chucking 25 times a game with the team mates he has now

he would be trashed by the media

LOL. AGAIN, he won more then half of his 10 scoring titles WHILE WINNING CHAMPIONSHIPS. There is nothing "loser" about that. The reason Kobe does not shoot that much when he's played on contenders is cause

1. He's not as efficient as Jordan.
2. He's had better teammates around him OFFENSIVELY then Jordan did.

Just admit that you don't know what you're talking about.

[barbaroi]

I didn't say Kobe's played longer. I said when he does pass him, it doesn't mean anything except that he played longer. Is Kobe past him now? No. Hence, why my comment was that when he does get past him it just means that he would've played longer.

As for that minutes nonsense, Jordan's barely played a season extra in minutes currently. Kobe's going to need far more than an extra season of minutes (which is little more than a clever way of trying to pass off the fact that Kobe has a far worse PPG and FG%). While Kobe is at least 3 seasons away from passing him in points. That means his minutes played by time he exceeds Jordan's points will be close to 2 total seasons anyway.

Or you could take it a step further. Jordan's averaged 0.787 points per minute. Kobe's averaged only 0.690 points per minute. That means Jordan's PPM is literally 14% better than Kobe's. This of course, excludes the fact that Jordan had better defense, and was more efficiant in his scoring, as well as a better volume scorer that that stat proves. You can even get a near exact minutes total Kobe should have by time he passes Jordan, based on his career average thus far, and see that Kobe would have nearly 6,000 more minutes played (and far more games played), than Jordan did at those current points, meaning it would've taken him more than two extra seasons just to match him. . .not this hilarious 2,500-3,000 nonsense you pulled out of thin air.

I'm not proping up Jordan's career totals. His averages are clearly much better than Kobe's across the board, making a small amount of points above him in far more games by Kobe insignificant, as Jordan was the more efficiant scorer while also being the better volume scorer, better scorer per minute, and better defender (2nd most steals ever, and highest BPG by a guard ever).

I'm not worried about the comparison at all. Having watched both players, it's clear who's better. On top of that, Jordan's stats are almost all better than Kobe's. Far more extra time played by Kobe doesn't change the fact that Jordan did far more in far less time.

If you wanna talk about non statistical stuff, then feel free, since that's harder to disprove. But Jordan has Kobe beat in stats, you can't really argue it at all.
I wasn't arguing Kobe was better than Jordan :oldlol: . In fact I didn't even get close to saying that. All I was trying to refute is this nonsense that even if Kobe end up with a higher point total than Jordan it won't mean anything. That's clearly not true. He will have done his scoring in a reasonably close amount of minutes (maybe 5-6% more than Jordan) and he will have dedicated himself to the game longer, both of which are praiseworthy feats. Does it make him better than Jordan? No. But it will be impressive nonetheless. And BTW this stuff about Kobe being far less efficient than Jordan? Kobe's career TS% - 55.7. Jordan's? 56.9. What a massive difference :rolleyes: . It's not like Kobe is AI with a 51.8 TS%.

[ImmortalD24]

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa280/cashforcards/dwwq.jpg

took out the stuff that doesnt matter

scoring titles = losing 99% of the time

just showed how much of a hog jordan was that he wanted to lead the league even with great all around teams:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

At the picture.. Good stuff man. :applause:

[Bring-Your-Js]

I wasn't arguing Kobe was better than Jordan :oldlol: . In fact I didn't even get close to saying that. All I was trying to refute is this nonsense that even if Kobe end up with a higher point total than Jordan it won't mean anything. That's clearly not true. He will have done his scoring in a reasonably close amount of minutes (maybe 5-6% more than Jordan) and he will have dedicated himself to the game longer, both of which are praiseworthy feats. Does it make him better than Jordan? No. But it will be impressive nonetheless. And BTW this stuff about Kobe being far less efficient than Jordan? Kobe's career TS% - 55.7. Jordan's? 56.9. What a massive difference :rolleyes: . It's not like Kobe is AI with a 51.8 TS%.

Why would you bring up facts like that? :no:

"Jordan was a much better shooter, look at FG%"

^ biggest crock of bullshit i've ever heard. :oldlol:

MJ = Superior Rim Finisher, Superior First Step, More Iso in Low Post.

People love to engage in dirty talk downplaying the significantly faster pace during the time Jordan was posting alot of his 50% FG pct. seasons. I'm not by any means saying he isn't the clear cut GOAT but give it a rest for christ sakes.

[97 bulls]

So if and when lebron and durant pass kobe for the all-time list does that make them better than kobe?

[SourPatchKids]

Wasn't it a lot harder to score in Jordan's time? The hand checking and all the great defenders.

[griffmoney2084]

Jordan>Kobe. Its not close.
Jordan came back and looked stiff and rusty. The 55 point game only adds to his greatness. Rusty as hell but still scores 55. Wow! Anyone with a brain can see that wasn't MJ. His shot was off and his ball handling was gone. Trolls will be trolls.


the 55 point game proved he didnt need a full season to do something above average

yet he still failed


and the year he played well against boston in the 80s, he missed the entire season then too


the bulls just werent good enough to beat a great orlando team, whether or not jordan skipped a year they would have lost

[griffmoney2084]

Wasn't it a lot harder to score in Jordan's time? The hand checking and all the great defenders.

give kobe isolation 1 on 1's all day with handchecking instead of 1 on 5's all day without handchecking

its harder to beat 5 bodys than 2 hands

[New York Knicks]

I wasn't arguing Kobe was better than Jordan :oldlol: . In fact I didn't even get close to saying that. All I was trying to refute is this nonsense that even if Kobe end up with a higher point total than Jordan it won't mean anything. That's clearly not true. He will have done his scoring in a reasonably close amount of minutes (maybe 5-6% more than Jordan) and he will have dedicated himself to the game longer, both of which are praiseworthy feats. Does it make him better than Jordan? No. But it will be impressive nonetheless. And BTW this stuff about Kobe being far less efficient than Jordan? Kobe's career TS% - 55.7. Jordan's? 56.9. What a massive difference :rolleyes: . It's not like Kobe is AI with a 51.8 TS%.
So as always, you use advanced metrics when it supports Kobe.

[New York Knicks]

give kobe isolation 1 on 1's all day with handchecking instead of 1 on 5's all day without handchecking

its harder to beat 5 bodys than 2 hands
He did play in that era and he didn't play as well. Thanks for trying.

[MasterDurant24]

give kobe isolation 1 on 1's all day with handchecking instead of 1 on 5's all day without handchecking

its harder to beat 5 bodys than 2 hands
It's still 1 on 5 with handchecking fool. If you beat your man you still got to go through the frontcourt, who had no defense three seconds installed, to get to the rim. Plus, Kobe played in the handchecking era. Dude, if you know nothing about basketball, don't try to argue about it.

[ThaRegul8r]

didnt a vote from over 100 thousand fans on espn.com have the public perception of kobe as

----> 3rd best player ever only behind michael jordan and magic johnson <--------



anyone have the link to that?

in fans eyes kobe already is better all time than kareem.

The old argumentum ad populum again.

:facepalm

What does that mean when the vast majority of "the fans" don't know anything? Most people probably don't even know who Kareem is, or if they do, their only memory is the old, bald Kareem at the end of his career rather than the dominating Kareem. People just went for name recognition. How is that any kind of point in favor of Kobe?

[MasterDurant24]

The old argumentum ad populum again.

:facepalm

What does that mean when the vast majority of "the fans" don't know anything? Most people probably don't even know who Kareem is, or if they do, their only memory is the old, bald Kareem at the end of his career rather than the dominating Kareem. People just went for name recognition. How is that any kind of point in favor of Kobe?
Yes. Now griffmoney, you know Kobe isn't top 3. Or Magic top 2 for that matter. So why are you going to argue with something you know is simply a popularity contest? I mean come on now.

[Glide2keva]

Kobe fans showing their ignorance once again.

[tpols]

So as always, you use advanced metrics when it supports Kobe.
How is TS% an advanced metric?

TS% just factors in FT% and eFG% to give a true look at how effective a person is at scoring.

It's no doubt 3pt shooting should be incorporated as it is a 50% increase in points gained over a regular field goal and since players get to the line so much why shouldn't a player be judged for efficiency on how well he shoots free throws? (kobe beats jordan in efficiency in both of these measures)

The fact of the matter is TS% gives the closest look at the points per possesion measure for scoring. It's not a made up ranking system where random numbers are assigned to players based on a made up formula. TS% incorporates all real values(fg%,efg%,ft%) to give a 'true shooting percentage'. It's really not in the same league of bullshitting as per or winshares.

[The Iron Fist]

I wasn't arguing Kobe was better than Jordan :oldlol: . In fact I didn't even get close to saying that. All I was trying to refute is this nonsense that even if Kobe end up with a higher point total than Jordan it won't mean anything. That's clearly not true. He will have done his scoring in a reasonably close amount of minutes (maybe 5-6% more than Jordan) and he will have dedicated himself to the game longer, both of which are praiseworthy feats. Does it make him better than Jordan? No. But it will be impressive nonetheless. And BTW this stuff about Kobe being far less efficient than Jordan? Kobe's career TS% - 55.7. Jordan's? 56.9. What a massive difference :rolleyes: . It's not like Kobe is AI with a 51.8 TS%.


Its silly how basketball fans put down people with long and productive careers and use it against players as some sort of put down.

I rarely, if ever see football fans chastise Jerry Rice for his longevity and some even call him the GOAT foot ball player.

Jordan stans will put up any bullshit excuse as to why anyone surpassing Jordan in anything doesn't really deserve the accolades that person receives or may receive. So many people are going to cry if and when Kobe does pass Jordan in that regard and even more might commit suicide if he does indeed pass Kareem.

Its as if every player whos had a great career, has to have it resemble Jordans in every way to even make it a discussion. "well, Jordan played for so and so years, and did it in less time".

[catch24]

Yes, barring any injuries, he's well on his way.

[Bring-Your-Js]

Its silly how basketball fans put down people with long and productive careers and use it against players as some sort of put down.

I rarely, if ever see football fans chastise Jerry Rice for his longevity and some even call him the GOAT foot ball player.

Jordan stans will put up any bullshit excuse as to why anyone surpassing Jordan in anything doesn't really deserve the accolades that person receives or may receive. So many people are going to cry if and when Kobe does pass Jordan in that regard and even more might commit suicide if he does indeed pass Kareem.

Its as if every player whos had a great career, has to have it resemble Jordans in every way to even make it a discussion. "well, Jordan played for so and so years, and did it in less time".

That scoring record is a huge reason why Kareem is in the top 3. But if Kobe does it, it'll only be because he played for a long time. :facepalm

People are going to go ape shit over everything from this point forward. I personally hope they make a really big deal over it for a more torturous experience. Probably a good percentage of these miserable little bastards are hoping for a severe injury.

[OldSchoolBBall]

This thread shows yet again why Kobe fans are the lowest form of life on the internet. They'll say and do ANYTHING to pretend that Kobe is >= Jordan. They're RELENTLESS.

[Courtside View]

This thread shows yet again why Kobe fans are the lowest form of life on the internet. They'll say and do ANYTHING to pretend that Kobe is >= Jordan. They're RELENTLESS.

Amen. Worst Internet plague besides viruses. Well maybe not. At least you can get rid of viruses.

[griffmoney2084]

Amen. Worst Internet plague besides viruses. Well maybe not. At least you can get rid of viruses.

yall act like jordans this untouchable god

and he isnt...


kobe might verry well already be considered greater all time if it werent for a bynum and malone injury

[MrMAgic023]

Kobe will past him but once again he cannot have any injuries over the 3/4 seasons

[griffmoney2084]

Kobe will past him but once again he cannot have any injuries over the 3/4 seasons

lol passing jordan is a givin

its kareem im worried about


kobes already scheduled for top 6 all time scoring by next season

[jlauber]

Kobe passing Jordan on the career scoring list is a BIG deal. And, IF he goes on to pass Kareem, that will be a MONUMENTAL achievement. Does it mean that he will be regarded as greater than those two? Probably not. BUT, barring injuries, he will probably have another 4-5 quality seasons. Let's see what his career looks like after that, and then make the comparisons.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Kobe passing Jordan on the career scoring list is a BIG deal.

It really isn't, though - not to anyone with any sense, that is (read: non-Kobe lovers).

[branslowski]

Any All-Time Scoring list record is NOT meaningless....All NBA Legends and fans know this...please stop spreading lies...Ofcource all kobe bashers will try and underrate it.

And even if Kobe passes Jordan in total points, it doesn't mean he's better...So Kobehaters/Jordan nut grabbers...Calm the f*ck down.

[TheLogo]

At this rate, if he stays healthy, with the god-like work ethic, he will destroy MJ in total points.

[jlauber]

It really isn't, though - not to anyone with any sense, that is (read: non-Kobe lovers).

I don't see how anyone can say that. It is a CAREER accomplishment. When MJ retired with the highest PPG average, was that a big deal? Because we all know that Chamberlain could easily have scored MUCH more in his career.

There were those that made a BIG deal out of it when Kareem surpassed Chamberlain's career point total, despite playing one season longer at the time (as well as the fact that Wilt nearly missed a full season in 69-70.)

I any case, scoring 33,000+ points would be an incredible accomplishment considering he would be #3 on the all-time scoring list.

[TheLogo]

Even as a casual fan, you would want Kobe not to only pass MJ but become the all-time leader in points.

Do you haters know how historical that feat would be? We would be witnessing a once in a lifetime achievement that we may never see again.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I don't see how anyone can say that. It is a CAREER accomplishment. When MJ retired with the highest PPG average, was that a big deal? Because we all know that Chamberlain could easily have scored MUCH more in his career.

There were those that made a BIG deal out of it when Kareem surpassed Chamberlain's career point total, despite playing one season longer at the time (as well as the fact that Wilt nearly missed a full season in 69-70.)

I any case, scoring 33,000+ points would be an incredible accomplishment considering he would be #3 on the all-time scoring list.

Longevity-based achievements don't matter nearly as much as other stuff like titles, accolades, averages/production etc. It's merely a feather in the cap, not the be-all, end-all, and certainly not a "BIG deal". Not for KAJ and not for anyone else.

For instance, in an abstract sense, no one would say that having the all time highest rebound TOTAL is more valuable/impressive than having the all-time rebound/gm career average, assuming that both players had a good length career.

[jlauber]

Longevity-based achievements don't matter nearly as much as other stuff like accolades, averages/production etc. It's merely a feather in the cap, not the be-all, end-all, and certainly not a "BIG deal". Not for KAJ and not for anyone else.

I am not arguing with the above. But, a milestone is a milestone. If it didn't matter, then why bother keeping the stat?

[OldSchoolBBall]

I am not arguing with the above. But, a milestone is a milestone. If it didn't matter, then why bother keeping the stat?

It matters of course, but I'm taking issue with your statement that it's a BIG deal, as if it's anywhere near something like titles/MVPs/career averages etc. It's not.

If one player averages 17 rebounds per game for 10 years and then another player averages 13 rebounds/gm for 14 years, the first player is far more impressive despite the second player having more total rebounds.

[TheLogo]

It matters of course, but I'm taking issue with your statement that it's a BIG deal, as if it's anywhere near something like titles/MVPs/career averages etc. It's not.

If one player averages 17 rebounds per game for 10 years and then another player averages 13 rebounds/gm for 14 years, the first player is far more impressive despite the second player having more total rebounds.

You're trying to diminish or take away Kareem's success by blaming him on longevity?

You cannot fault a player for this.

[OldSchoolBBall]

You're trying to diminish or take away Kareem's success by blaming him on longevity?

You cannot fault a player for this.

I'm not talking about KAJ or anyone in particular. I'm making a point that longevity based accomplishments aren't nearly as important/impressive as stuff like titles/MVPs/average/production.

[chazzy]

I'm not talking about KAJ or anyone in particular. I'm making a point that longevity based accomplishments aren't nearly as important/impressive as stuff like titles/MVPs/average/production.

No one said it was. Jlauber was just countering the notion that it's a meaningless accomplishment.

[zizozain]

Any All-Time Scoring list record is NOT meaningless....All NBA Legends and fans know this...please stop spreading lies...Ofcource all kobe bashers will try and underrate it.

And even if Kobe passes Jordan in total points, it doesn't mean he's better...So Kobehaters/Jordan nut grabbers...Calm the f*ck down.

lol
well i don't blame them .. remeber whe kobe got his 5th ring?
even MJ's sons were panicking :lol

-----------

it's possible that he will

-play 60,000 minutes (regular season plus playoffs),

-score 35,000 points (the most by any guard ever), MJ

-play 250-plus playoff games (the record is 244), MJ

-pass 6,000 playoff points (also a record), MJ ?

-win seven titles . MJ

-lead the Lakers the to be the team with most NBA championship titles.

and If he plays at a high level through his late 30s,
he has a real chance to pass Kareem’s 38,387 points

[Raider007]

Remember Jordans rambling about "how good he is" during his HOF speach?

I cant help but root for Bryant on this one.


Not A Kobe nut hugger, but Jordan will squirm at night when Kobe does this.


I was a Jordan fan, I am a Jordan fan, but after his nauseating self bl0wj0b at the HOF ceremony, I kinda want him to feel a bit more mortal.

http://chzgifs.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/blargh_raptors.gif

[KenneBell]

I don't see how anyone can say that. It is a CAREER accomplishment.
You aren't talking to just anyone. We're talking to Jordan fan numero uno, of course longevity doesn't count in his mind.

[SinJackal]

I wasn't arguing Kobe was better than Jordan :oldlol: . In fact I didn't even get close to saying that. All I was trying to refute is this nonsense that even if Kobe end up with a higher point total than Jordan it won't mean anything. That's clearly not true. He will have done his scoring in a reasonably close amount of minutes (maybe 5-6% more than Jordan) and he will have dedicated himself to the game longer, both of which are praiseworthy feats. Does it make him better than Jordan? No. But it will be impressive nonetheless. And BTW this stuff about Kobe being far less efficient than Jordan? Kobe's career TS% - 55.7. Jordan's? 56.9. What a massive difference :rolleyes: . It's not like Kobe is AI with a 51.8 TS%.

You really don't want to use TS% as your main argument. Kevin Martin, a 42% FG% shooter for the last two seasons, has had a better TS% than Kobe every year for the last five years. His career TS% is 4% higher than Kobe's.

So if you want to use that as a stat, you're by default also saying that Kevin Martin is a better and more efficiant scorer than Kobe and is just as efficiant as prime MJ. 42% from the field, but 60% TS% in 2008. Sometimes it's little more than a shitty stat that masks a 3pt shot jacker's low FG%.

And yes, I agree Kobe is not like AI. I didn't say Kobe wasn't an efficiant scorer. I never would say that. But the fact remains that he is less efficiant than MJ. Being less efficiant than the best scorer ever isn't an insult, why take it as one?

Also, I'm still not sure why you keep posting false numbers about the extra minutes played. I just explained to you in my last post about the minutes. 5-6% more than Jordan? How are you coming up with this number besides pulling it out of thin air?

By the pace Kobe is going, at his current points per minute ratio, he would have to play 14-15% as many minutes to get the same amount of points, as Jordan's PPM ratio is 14% higher than Kobe's. I explained this in the last post. If you do math on your projected, "Kobe playing only 5% more minutes than Jordan's to pass his points", you're saying Kobe will score 6,503 points in the next 5,694.5 minutes of his career. Which means you think he will almost double his career scoring per minute over the next two seasons. Assuming he plays 38 minutes a game like last season, that means he's going to be averaging almost 44 points per game. Of course, if he plays 40 minutes, that means you think he's going to average 46 PPG.

That's how horrible your math is on those minutes. Hate to call you out like that, but jesus, you're so off on that it's not even funny.



Why would you bring up facts like that? :no:

They weren't facts. They were random numbers he pulled out of his ass, as I just proved in my above post. I'll bet you wish what he said was true, but it just isn't. Sorry. Both of you need to stop failing in math class.



Even as a casual fan, you would want Kobe not to only pass MJ but become the all-time leader in points.

Do you haters know how historical that feat would be? We would be witnessing a once in a lifetime achievement that we may never see again.

Until LeBron and Durant both pass Kobe later you mean.

[chris02jammers]

Durant will pass Kobe on All time scoring list book it!!!........

[Nash]

Kobe stans are weird, they make me want Kobe to do bad which is sad since I think he's an amazing player.

[barbaroi]

You really don't want to use TS% as your main argument. Kevin Martin, a 42% FG% shooter for the last two seasons, has had a better TS% than Kobe every year for the last five years. His career TS% is 4% higher than Kobe's.

So if you want to use that as a stat, you're by default also saying that Kevin Martin is a better and more efficiant scorer than Kobe and is just as efficiant as prime MJ. 42% from the field, but 60% TS% in 2008. Sometimes it's little more than a shitty stat that masks a 3pt shot jacker's low FG%.

And yes, I agree Kobe is not like AI. I didn't say Kobe wasn't an efficiant scorer. I never would say that. But the fact remains that he is less efficiant than MJ. Being less efficiant than the best scorer ever isn't an insult, why take it as one?

TS% isn't some random ass formula:

One player shoots 7/10 from 2, 2/5 from 3, and 6/10 from FT line. That gives him 26 points on 60 FG% and 60 FT%.

Another player shoots 2/10 from 2, 5/5 from 3, and 10/10 from the FT line. That gives him 29 points on 46.7 FG% and 100 FT%.

So FG% gives us the idea that the first player shot better, despite the fact that the second player ended up with more points on the exact same FGA and FTA. What would TS% tell us?

The first player ends up with a TS% of 67.01%, while the second player ends up with a TS% of 69.5%.

Clearly TS% is a more accurate measure of efficiency in scoring, because it takes into account 3P% and FT%.

Kobe is less efficient than Jordan, but not by the amount you feel like making it out to be. Kobe's career TS% (the most accurate measure of shooting efficiency) is 55.7%, while Jordan's is 56.9%.

As to the second part:

Also, I'm still not sure why you keep posting false numbers about the extra minutes played. I just explained to you in my last post about the minutes. 5-6% more than Jordan? How are you coming up with this number besides pulling it out of thin air?

By the pace Kobe is going, at his current points per minute ratio, he would have to play 14-15% as many minutes to get the same amount of points, as Jordan's PPM ratio is 14% higher than Kobe's. I explained this in the last post. If you do math on your projected, "Kobe playing only 5% more minutes than Jordan's to pass his points", you're saying Kobe will score 6,503 points in the next 5,694.5 minutes of his career. Which means you think he will almost double his career scoring per minute over the next two seasons. Assuming he plays 38 minutes a game like last season, that means he's going to be averaging almost 44 points per game. Of course, if he plays 40 minutes, that means you think he's going to average 46 PPG.

That's how horrible your math is on those minutes. Hate to call you out like that, but jesus, you're so off on that it's not even funny.
You notice the part you quoted where I said "maybe 5-6% more". Now please think what maybe means. Does that sound exact to you? I was doing a rough estimate based on the premise of him playing about 3000 more minutes than Jordan to pass his total. Obviously ~3000/~41000 is more than 6% still, but I wasn't taking out my calculator to calculate it exactly.

[Se]

Something worth noting about Jordan and efficiency, he was the only Dream Team member other than Laetneer to shoot under 50% and he took a LOT of shots. Led the team in attempts by about 30 shots.

CHUCK-ER!

http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/basket_1992/
45 FG% on 113 attempts (30 more shots than Barkley, and he was shooting 71.1%)
21 3PT%
68 FT%

[tpols]

TS% isn't some random ass formula:

One player shoots 7/10 from 2, 2/5 from 3, and 6/10 from FT line. That gives him 26 points on 60 FG% and 60 FT%.

Another player shoots 2/10 from 2, 5/5 from 3, and 10/10 from the FT line. That gives him 27 points on 46.7 FG% and 100 FT%.

So FG% gives us the idea that the first player shot better, despite the fact that the second player ended up with more points on the exact same FGA and FTA. What would TS% tell us?

The first player ends up with a TS% of 67.01%, while the second player ends up with a TS% of 69.5%.

Clearly TS% is a more accurate measure of efficiency in scoring, because it takes into account 3P% and FT%.

Kobe is less efficient than Jordan, but not by the amount you feel like making it out to be. Kobe's career TS% (the most accurate measure of shooting efficiency) is 55.7%, while Jordan's is 56.9%.

As to the second part:

You notice the part you quoted where I said "maybe 5-6% more". Now please think what maybe means. Does that sound exact to you? I was doing a rough estimate based on the premise of him playing about 3000 more minutes than Jordan to pass his total. Obviously ~3000/~41000 is more than 6% still, but I wasn't taking out my calculator to calculate it exactly.
Don't try to explain logic to sinjackal bro.

TS% is the most accurate measure for points per possesion when talking about scoring and efficiency because it incorporates the three parts to scoring efficiency (ft, fg,and efg). Of course you should look at ft% as missing 2 freethrows is like missing a regular field goal and the 3 pointer percentage should be adjusted to account for the fact that it awards 50% more points than a regular field goal.

That kevin martin example actually showed how shooting 40%+ on 3s and 85%+ on fts really ups your scoring efficiency (which it does especially, in martin's case, when you're taking 10+fts and 5+3ptrs a game)

[moey-]

TS% isn't some random ass formula:

One player shoots 7/10 from 2, 2/5 from 3, and 6/10 from FT line. That gives him 26 points on 60 FG% and 60 FT%.

Another player shoots 2/10 from 2, 5/5 from 3, and 10/10 from the FT line. That gives him 27 points on 46.7 FG% and 100 FT%.

So FG% gives us the idea that the first player shot better, despite the fact that the second player ended up with more points on the exact same FGA and FTA. What would TS% tell us?

The first player ends up with a TS% of 67.01%, while the second player ends up with a TS% of 69.5%.

Clearly TS% is a more accurate measure of efficiency in scoring, because it takes into account 3P% and FT%.

Kobe is less efficient than Jordan, but not by the amount you feel like making it out to be. Kobe's career TS% (the most accurate measure of shooting efficiency) is 55.7%, while Jordan's is 56.9%.

As to the second part:

You notice the part you quoted where I said "maybe 5-6% more". Now please think what maybe means. Does that sound exact to you? I was doing a rough estimate based on the premise of him playing about 3000 more minutes than Jordan to pass his total. Obviously ~3000/~41000 is more than 6% still, but I wasn't taking out my calculator to calculate it exactly.

well said. Brilliant.

[Soundwave]

[QUOTE=Se

[G-Funk]

Why would you bring up facts like that? :no:

"Jordan was a much better shooter, look at FG%"
^ biggest crock of bullshit i've ever heard. :oldlol:




So Kobe has shot 46% And Jordan 50%. That means if you give both players 100 attempts. Kobe would make 46 out of 100 compared to Jordan 50 out of 100. That's just 4 less shots! How is that so much better? it's better, but by a small margin. That's not that bad for Kobe considering he's shot waaay more perimeter shots than MJ.

Point is, Kobe has only averaged about 2 less shots pg

[Mor'Fiyah]

So Kobe has shot 46% And Jordan 50%. That means if you give both players 100 attempts. Kobe would make 46 out of 100 compared to Jordan 50 out of 100. That's just 4 less shots! How is that so much better? it's better, but by a small margin. That's not that bad for Kobe considering he's shot waaay more perimeter shots than MJ.

Sure thats true for a very small (relatively) sampling. Adjust those same numbers for 5000 shots. Then adjust them up to 10,000 shots and the difference becomes much larger.

Now don't get me wrong. I am a fan of both players and Kobe is my all time favourite player in the league. But its disingenuous to scoff at 46% being pretty close to 50% when it comes to the circumstances of FG%. That said TS% is far more ideal a measurement in comparing the effectiveness of both players at scoring and in that regard Kobe is right on Jordan's heels by virtue of his shooting from the perimeter and the added bonus from the three point line.

In reality it breaks down to these four perspectives:

The Kobe Stan/Jordan Hater perspective:
Kobe is better than that overrated Jordan guy who was a ball-hog, over inflated his stats in a weak era etc etc etc.

The Kobe Fan perspective:
Kobe and Jordan are approximately in the same conversation now as whatever gap there is between the two players is narrowing to something so small that individual preference now becomes the mitigating factor as to who is subjectively thought to be the better player. I just prefer Kobe.

The Jordan Fan perspective:
Kobe and Jordan are approximately in the same conversation now as whatever gap there is between the two players is narrowing to something so small that individual preference now becomes the mitigating factor as to who is subjectively thought to be the better player. I just prefer Jordan.

The Jordan Stan/Kobe Hater perspective:
Jordan is better than that overrated Kobe guy who was a ball-hog, over inflated his stats in a weak era etc etc etc.

The two middle perspective are more objectively neutral and far closer to the truth.

[miller-time]

So Kobe has shot 46% And Jordan 50%. That means if you give both players 100 attempts. Kobe would make 46 out of 100 compared to Jordan 50 out of 100. That's just 4 less shots! How is that so much better? it's better, but by a small margin. That's not that bad for Kobe considering he's shot waaay more perimeter shots than MJ.

because it is a statistically significant margin.

http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/9603/jordankobeanova.jpg

here is a t-test i performed using the fg% data. see where that it says f ratio? that is a test statistic, if kobe and jordan were the same that would be closer to 1. the value next to it is your p-value, the very low value shows that the test statistic is reliable.

i just wanted to take this fanboy stat trend to the extreme. i'm not actually trying to get involved here. none of it actually means anything it just shows a difference.

[G-Funk]

Sure thats true for a very small (relatively) sampling. Adjust those same numbers for 5000 shots. Then adjust them up to 10,000 shots and the difference becomes much larger.



Yes, but the point I wanna make is that these 2 players take/took near 20 attempts per game, so the difference becomes much smaller. If both players would take 5000 shots per game then I would see your point but the fact is they averaged around 20 per game.

BTW I agree Jordan forever will be the best. I just don't agree with ppl's agenda of downplaying Kobe's achievements by playing a double standard game.

[jlauber]

Like all stats, TS% is a GOOD measure of efficiency. However, two main points: One, it penalizes players like Wilt and Shaq, who were getting 10-15-20 or more FTAs per game. Those types of games, like Shaq's 18-39 or Wilt's 28-32 game are devastating to defenses. Players are either fouling out, off the court because of fouls, or playing matador defense to avoid fouls. Not only that, but teammates are getting more FTs because their team is shooting in the penalty much sooner. Secondly, it doesn't factor in ERA DEFENSE. MJ played close to half his career in an NBA that shot .485 in the decade of the 80's. Kobe has played in an era of around .450 league averages. True, in the 00's, teams are shooting the trey much more, which lowers FG%, but increases TS%, but defenses have still been better.

That is also why Oscar's super-human seasons in the 60's were so staggering. He was shooting around 50% in leagues that were shooting .440.


You can also make this comparsion...

In MJ's highest scoring season, he averaged 37.1 ppg and shot .482 in a league that averaged 110 ppg and shot .480. In Kobe's 35.4 ppg season, he shot .450 in a league that averaged 97 ppg and shot .454.

[crisoner]

Another thread praising individual stats.
It's fans like us that turned LeBron in to a monster. jp

Kobe will pass Jordan but yes Jordan did it in less years. Then you can argue Jordan didn't have to play second fiddle to a dominant big man in his career like Kobe did but at the end of it....why do we give a f*ck? Both great players and will have legendary careers at the end. Only thing that matters to me is Kobe played for MY TEAM.

All I have to say.

[G-Funk]

Kobe has played in an era of around .450 league

In MJ's highest scoring season, he averaged 37.1 ppg and shot .482 in a league that averaged 110 ppg and shot .480. In Kobe's 35.4 ppg season, he shot .450 in a league that averaged 97 ppg and shot .454.


Someone looked it up and said that the average player in 2000's averages 42% but Im not sure how if it's correct or not.

[whatever666]

Please stop trying to compare Kobe to Jordan.... not even close.... :facepalm

[crisoner]

Please stop trying to compare Kobe to Jordan.... not even close.... :facepalm

Comparing?

The OP just posted a question. Don't get your panties wet now.

Hey news flash to Jordan fans....he retired from the NBA and the NBA has been doing fine without him for a long while. Plus we have great players in Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Howard, Gasol, Rondo, Durant etc.
The NBA it's FAAAAAAAAAANTISTIC!!!!!

[Bring-Your-Js]

Comparing?

The OP just posted a question. Don't get your panties wet now.

Hey news flash to Jordan fans....he retired from the NBA and the NBA has been doing fine without him for a long while. Plus we have great players in Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Howard, Gasol, Rondo, Durant etc.
The NBA it's FAAAAAAAAAANTISTIC!!!!!

Don't have to tell him this.

[crisoner]

Don't have to tell him this.

Ha true.....

[Big#50]

yall act like jordans this untouchable god

and he isnt...


kobe might verry well already be considered greater all time if it werent for a bynum and malone injury
So the Malone injury made Kobe shoot the way he did against the Pistons? Jordan is untouchable by any perimeter player that will come along. Have you seen him play? The guy was just amazing. Kobe couldn't handle the Celtics because he just isn't good enough to carry a team. If it weren't for Gasol Kobe would still be trying to make the finals. Someone post a highlight for this fool. He needs to know why Jordan is considered untouchable. The guy had a shot, nobody but some of the great big men could finish around the basket like he did. His D was top ten of all time. Jordan was way stronger than Kobe. He always came through in the clutch. Kobe usually hits a game winner in the reg season only to vanish on the biggest stage. Kobe great but Jordan greater. He can't ever be better than Jordan. No matter what he does from now on. He can score 45k points and win 8 rings. Doesn't matter. I saw both play and its easy to see Jordan was ****ing amazing and much better.

[tpols]

So the Malone injury made Kobe shoot the way he did against the Pistons? Jordan is untouchable by any perimeter player that will come along. Have you seen him play? The guy was just amazing. Kobe couldn't handle the Celtics because he just isn't good enough to carry a team.Thats why he took his team to back to back rings and picked up 2 FMVPs right?

If it weren't for Gasol Kobe would still be trying to make the finals. If it weren't for pippen, jordan would be ringless (and he wouldn't have made the finals)

Someone post a highlight for this fool. He needs to know why Jordan is considered untouchable. The guy had a shot, nobody but some of the great big men could finish around the basket like he did.Kobe's FT shooting, 3pt shooting and midrange game were better than MJ's throughout his career. Kobe is only one TS percentage point away from jordan despite not attacking the rim nearly as often because he is a better shooter.

His D was top ten of all time.Kobe has made the All-D team for the past 8 years in a row making him the best defensive perimeter player of this era.


Jordan was way stronger than Kobe. He always came through in the clutch. Kobe usually hits a game winner in the reg season only to vanish on the biggest stage.Kobe has more game winners than jordan and has made his name off of his clutchness during shaq's reign and over the past few years. If you watched the WCF this year you would be singing a different tune. (and the funny thing is he's not even done with compiling clutch moments yet)

Kobe great but Jordan greater. He can't ever be better than Jordan. No matter what he does from now on. He can score 45k points and win 8 rings. Doesn't matter. I saw both play and its easy to see Jordan was ****ing amazing and much better.If kobe scores 45k points and wins 3 more rings in a row as the man he will have surpassed jordan EASILY.

[no pun intended]

Kobe will probably be number 2.

[Wukillabeez78]

Jordan made over 50% of shots over his career. Kobe 45%. so even if Kobe shot the same amount of shots he would average less points.

He probably will have more points than MJ, but that doesn't mean he is the better player. K Malone has the second most be he is boarderline top 15.

There have been other threads about this before but Kobe is a better perimeter shooter than Jordan was and as such takes a much higher percentage of threes. Kobe has already nearly made more three pointers in his career to this point than Jordan attempted in his entire career. Kobe has always been a much more perimeter oriented player than Jordan (even when he was younger/explosive) probably because he had to develop these skills while playing with Shaq who dominated the paint in a way that no one Jordan played with ever did. Jordan (and Pippen for that matter) was free to drive to the basket and take higher percentage shots because he didn't have a Shaq clogging up the paint and destroying people down low.

It should be expected that Kobe's overall field goal percentage is lower than Jordan's. Jordan attempted 1.7 threes for his career while Kobe has averaged 3.8 attempts so far in his career. A three pointer is a lower percentage shot and as such drags down a players overall field goal percentage. Ray Allen who is a much better perimeter shooter than Kobe and shoots the 3 at a higher percentage only shoots 45% on his career as well. Taking more 3's lowers your overall field goal percentage even if you're a proficient 40% career three point shooter like Ray Allen.

Jordan shot 23 times a game. Kobe takes 19 shots a game. Jordan would score more mainly because of this, not because he shoots a higher percentage. If they both took the same amount of shots a game Kobe would probably score more (even given Jordan making a higher overall percentage) because he'd be getting more 3's than 2's compared to Jordan. Jordan did avg slightly more free throw attempts per game (8.2 vs 7.6 for Kobe) but this isn't a big difference (.6 of a point).

Really, it's probably a wash as far as scoring. The bottom line is Jordan is better because he was a better all-around player (look at steals, rebounds). Kobe is an above average defender but Jordan was a great defender. Kobe is equal to and even better than Jordan in some aspects but Jordan is still the best shooting guard in history. If Jordan wasn't available Kobe would be a damn good substitute but if Jordan is present you'd take him without a second thought.

[Big#50]

Thats why he took his team to back to back rings and picked up 2 FMVPs right?
If it weren't for pippen, jordan would be ringless (and he wouldn't have made the finals)
Kobe's FT shooting, 3pt shooting and midrange game were better than MJ's throughout his career. Kobe is only one TS percentage point away from jordan despite not attacking the rim nearly as often because he is a better shooter.
Kobe has made the All-D team for the past 8 years in a row making him the best defensive perimeter player of this era.

Kobe has more game winners than jordan and has made his name off of his clutchness during shaq's reign and over the past few years. If you watched the WCF this year you would be singing a different tune. (and the funny thing is he's not even done with compiling clutch moments yet)
If kobe scores 45k points and wins 3 more rings in a row as the man he will have surpassed jordan EASILY.
Perimeter defenders that are better than Kobe in this era.
Bowen
Artest
Battier
Did u mean the best guard defender? Because he isn't that either. His all nba d nods have been due to wanting to make him comparable to Jordan. Kobe played good D from 2000 to 2003. Even his coach and assistants have said Kobe making the team was a joke and are due to his name not skills.
He won rings but didn't cary his team. Having Gasol, Fisher, Ariza, Artest, play better tan him in closing minutes of important gme in the playoffs and finals doesn't really help your case or his. Losing by 39 and losing a 24 point lead doesn't help either. You really think Jordan would let a team come back from 24 in the finals??
45k points and more rings all of a sudden make Kobe better than Jordan? That won't delete the film and footage we have of Jordan. The one where anyone with two eyes can see he is way better than Kobe. More points doesn't equal better. Might equal better stats and accolades but not a better player. There's more than stats.Kobe can't delete the 04 and 08 finals. Not to mention he played sub par against Orlando and played like shit in game 7 aginst the Celtics only to be saved by Gasol and Artest. The reffs practically gave that game to the Lakers. Oh but Kobe had 15 boards. Perkins wasn't playing and he didn't battle anyone for those boards. Most of them fell in his hands. Oh but Jordan shot awwful against the Jazz. Nobody played better than him in that game and he won the game for his team. Big difference
If jordan didn't have Pippen he'd have no rings. No Shaq, no rings for Kobe. Kobe fans need to see that Kobe is just a bit lower than Jordan. No shame in that.

[G-Funk]

Jordan made over 50% of shots over his career. Kobe 45%. so even if Kobe shot the same amount of shots he would average less points.

He probably will have more points than MJ, but that doesn't mean he is the better player. K Malone has the second most be he is boarderline top 15.


Kobe has shot 46% And Jordan 50%. If you give both players 100 attempts. Kobe would make 46 out of 100 compared to Jordan 50 out of 100(just 4 more shots out of 100).

But the more attemps they make, the bigger the difference is. But in this case, it get's smaller. for example:

If you double the shot attemps to 200 then Jordan would score 100 to Kobe's 92

Is still not so bad but as you can see the margin keeps getting bigger. but if both players shot less, let's say 21 shots per game, then the margin becomes a lot smaller. This means that Jordan made about 1 shot more then Kobe during the course of a game.

[MasterDurant24]

Comparing?

The OP just posted a question. Don't get your panties wet now.

Hey news flash to Jordan fans....he retired from the NBA and the NBA has been doing fine without him for a long while. Plus we have great players in Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Howard, Gasol, Rondo, Durant etc.
The NBA it's FAAAAAAAAAANTISTIC!!!!!
Fantistic? Really?

[G-Funk]

Lets' say both players take 21 shots in one game(or averaged).

If Kobe would take 21 shots at 46%. 9.66 would go in.

If Jordan would take 21 shots at 50%. 10.5 would go in.

That's just about a shot more(.84).

That's not bad considering Jordan attempted 1.7 threes for his career while Kobe has averaged 3.8 attempts.

[SinJackal]

TS% isn't some random ass formula:

One player shoots 7/10 from 2, 2/5 from 3, and 6/10 from FT line. That gives him 26 points on 60 FG% and 60 FT%.

Another player shoots 2/10 from 2, 5/5 from 3, and 10/10 from the FT line. That gives him 29 points on 46.7 FG% and 100 FT%.

So FG% gives us the idea that the first player shot better, despite the fact that the second player ended up with more points on the exact same FGA and FTA. What would TS% tell us?

The first player ends up with a TS% of 67.01%, while the second player ends up with a TS% of 69.5%.

Clearly TS% is a more accurate measure of efficiency in scoring, because it takes into account 3P% and FT%.

Kobe is less efficient than Jordan, but not by the amount you feel like making it out to be. Kobe's career TS% (the most accurate measure of shooting efficiency) is 55.7%, while Jordan's is 56.9%.

As to the second part:

You notice the part you quoted where I said "maybe 5-6% more". Now please think what maybe means. Does that sound exact to you? I was doing a rough estimate based on the premise of him playing about 3000 more minutes than Jordan to pass his total. Obviously ~3000/~41000 is more than 6% still, but I wasn't taking out my calculator to calculate it exactly.

I didn't say TS% was a random formula, so don't act as if I did. I was pointing out that you shouldn't be hanging on it as some big point when Jordan clearly has scored more points in less time. The best part of Kobe's game is his scoring, and even that is statistically worse than MJ's in every conceivable way. Sure, Kobe shoots slightly better from three (barely 1%), but that doesn't matter when MJ's TS% is better, while he also scores 14% more points in the same amount of time as Kobe (career).

Also, Kobe has had only two seasons with a TS% over .561, every full Bulls season of Jordan's life besides his last one had a TS% above that. He also has 6 seasons with TS% above Kobe's best. Once Kobe has 2-3 years of decline thrown in there. . .their TS% gap is going to increase (this has already started fyi). The difference in averages is going to steadily get worse from here on out, besides PPG which should go up a little for a season or two before it starts to go down like most of his other stats have been the last couple years. The gap's just going to get bigger.

As for the minutes thing. . .

5-6% is not even close. I explained to you already that it wasn't close, and you continued to post about it saying it would only take 5% more minutes, hence, I broke it down for you why that was so stupid. Kobe would need to average about 45 PPG to get to Jordan's points with only 5% more minutes played. He would need to average way over 50 to match Jordan's points to his minutes played.

If you have no idea what you're talking about, stop continuing to use it as a point when I have already explained to you once that you were off by a lot.

So again, before you sit there getting all angry and acting like I'm trying to bash Kobe or say his TS% sucks, I never did either, so don't reply to me as if I did. I also didn't say Jordan's TS% was way better, I simply said it was better period, which is true. In addition, Jordan's points per minute stat is literally 14% better than Kobe's. Feel free to do the math, or I can do it for you (again).

Kobe's total points (25,790) divided by his minutes played (37,366) = 0.6901 points per minute.

Jordan's total points (32,292) divided by his minutes played (41,010) = 0.7874 points per minute.

Jordan's 0.7874 divided by Kobe's 0.6901 = 1.1409, which means Jordan scores slightly over 14% more than Kobe over the same period of time, while also shooting more efficiantly (even when including Jordan's average last two seasons, and none of Kobe's declined seasons).

The beauty of that stat is that it actually gives Kobe slack for playing less minutes per game than MJ, as well as slack for the lesser minutes he played at the beginning of his career, so there are no excuses for it whatsoever. At no point has Kobe been as good a scorer as prime MJ. Kobe even only has two seasons which barely pass Jordan's career TS%. And he only averaged 26 and 28 PPG in those two seasons, with lesser stats than MJ's career averages across the board otherwise.

So even if Kobe does pass MJ in total points, it's with less efficiancy, and required a far greater amount of time to do so, which does not make him a better scorer since he will always be a statistically worse scorer, even if he does play 13-15% longer than MJ did to rack up the extra points to match his.

So please, before you act like I'm trying to bash Kobe, I'm not. I'm simply posting facts so you can get your argument straight, since so far you have done a very poor job of posting accurate information.



Don't try to explain logic to sinjackal bro.

You clearly didn't read the exchange between us. He was posting incorrect information. You of course, will always take the side of a Kobe fan even when he's posting inaccurate information, and then will pretend like it's "logic". Rofl. I would say, "pathetic, even for you", but then you'll just log onto your troll account and agree with yourself some more.



Lets' say both players take 21 shots in one game(or averaged).

If Kobe would take 21 shots at 46%. 9.66 would go in.

If Jordan would take 21 shots at 50%. 10.5 would go in.

That's just about a shot less.

That's not bad considering Jordan attempted 1.7 threes for his career while Kobe has averaged 3.8 attempts.

Stop trying to take attention away from the facts being argued.

Based on their points per minute played, Jordan has scored 14% more than Kobe, on better TS%, with better defense and better stats across the board.

There is absolutely no argument for Kobe being better, even if he scores more total points, because it would've taken him 14% more game play to even match him based on the pace he's going.

So to sum it up for the slow-witted, Jordan will always be the more efficiant scorer who scores more per game, more per minute, has better defense, more rebounds, more steals, more blocks, more assists, more DPOYs, more MVPs, more scoring titles, more Finals MVPs. . .etc.

Kobe can't make up for any of that. All he can do is play 15-20% longer to try and pass up Jordan's totals. A feat which doesn't remove the fact that Jordan did it all much faster, and more efficiantly.

/end thread

[Wukillabeez78]

Kobe has shot 46% And Jordan 50%. If you give both players 100 attempts. Kobe would make 46 out of 100 compared to Jordan 50 out of 100(just 4 more shots out of 100).

But the more attemps they make, the bigger the difference is. But in this case, it get's smaller. for example:

If you double the shot attemps to 200 then Jordan would score 100 to Kobe's 92

Is still not so bad but as you can see the margin keeps getting bigger. but if both players averaged 21 shots per game then the margin becomes a lot smaller. This means that Jordan made about 1 or 2 shots more then Kobe.

How many each would make out of 100 attempts would depend on where they were shooting from. Outside of the three point line Kobe > Jordan. Inside of the three point line it'd probably be a wash. Kobe's overall field goal percentage is lower than Jordan's because he attempts more than twice as many threes than Jordan does in games. If you give each a ball in an empty gym and had them shoot one hundred shots at various points inside of the three point line it would probably come down to simply whoever got hotter that day. Outside of the three point line Kobe would clearly win, he was the better three point shooter. Shooting and scoring isn't the main difference between the two, both were great midrange shooters and scorers. Jordan is better because he was the superior all-around player. Jordan came to a lottery team where he was able to start right away and was the man, it was his team from day one. Kobe came into a situation where he had to ride the bench behind established stars (Eddie Jones most notably) for a few years before he got enough minutes a game to make an impact. Jordan is clearly > than Kobe however it isn't as wide a disparity as some think. If Jordan is a 10 then Kobe would be a 9.5.

[Bring-Your-Js]

Perimeter defenders that are better than Kobe in this era.
Bowen
Artest
Battier
Did u mean the best guard defender? Because he isn't that either. His all nba d nods have been due to wanting to make him comparable to Jordan. Kobe played good D from 2000 to 2003. Even his coach and assistants have said Kobe making the team was a joke and are due to his name not skills.
He won rings but didn't cary his team. Having Gasol, Fisher, Ariza, Artest, play better tan him in closing minutes of important gme in the playoffs and finals doesn't really help your case or his. Losing by 39 and losing a 24 point lead doesn't help either. You really think Jordan would let a team come back from 24 in the finals??
45k points and more rings all of a sudden make Kobe better than Jordan? That won't delete the film and footage we have of Jordan. The one where anyone with two eyes can see he is way better than Kobe. More points doesn't equal better. Might equal better stats and accolades but not a better player. There's more than stats.Kobe can't delete the 04 and 08 finals. Not to mention he played sub par against Orlando and played like shit in game 7 aginst the Celtics only to be saved by Gasol and Artest. The reffs practically gave that game to the Lakers. Oh but Kobe had 15 boards. Perkins wasn't playing and he didn't battle anyone for those boards. Most of them fell in his hands. Oh but Jordan shot awwful against the Jazz. Nobody played better than him in that game and he won the game for his team. Big difference
If jordan didn't have Pippen he'd have no rings. No Shaq, no rings for Kobe. Kobe fans need to see that Kobe is just a bit lower than Jordan. No shame in that.

I'm not interested in jumping into yet another one of these futile discussions other than the bolded. That's totally inaccurate and you know it. Just stop.

I don't think any perimeter player will ever match what Jordan did in the 91-93 Finals and don't consider even Wade's to be on par for obvious, well-known reasons. That was surreal perfection, ok?

However, people are vastly overstating Kobe's Finals struggles, especially when compared to Jordan's 2ND 3Peat. This is 50% of his title runs. In terms of overall playoff performance, Kobe's 2008-2010 (and they ARE at similar mileage regardless of actual age) is exactly equal to Jordan's of 1996-98, the only difference being Jordan took more FGA. They shot the same pct.

As for the Finals, Kobe's 2009 against the No. 1 defense in the league that season is equal to or better than any of Jordan's 96-98. His 2010 is arguably better and certainly no worse than Jordan's 1996. His 2008 slightly below Jordan's 96. And for good measure, 2002 (27 ppg/6/6 on 51% is arguably better than any as well) These are isolated comparisons... Kobe has nothing on Jordan in Finals performances but isolated as they may be, they're factual. You're overstating Kobe's Finals in a negative light. It goes both ways.

[JDKMagic]

That's because Jordan averaged nearly 23(22.9) shots per game, Kobe has averaged 19.3 shots per game. If you wanna add Kobe's first 3 years to diminish him, then you must be willing to remove them so he's career stats will be 28 5 5 compared to Jordans 30 6 5

If you want to play that game you can drop Jordan's 3 worst seasons (17 games out of retirement and the 2 with the Wizards)... and his career PPG jumps to 31.5 or something. (and this is ignoring FG% which Jordan wins handily depsite actually shooting more which SHOULD lead to a lower FG%)

Jordan was better... by miles. Kobe is a great, great player. Leave it at that. Don't try to elevate him to something he's not and people won't try to tear him down from something that he actually is, which is a great all time talent.

What came first? The chicken or the egg?
What came first? The Kobe fanboy or the Kobe hater?

[Desperado]

Please stop trying to compare Kobe to Jordan.... not even close.... :facepalm

Why? Kobe isn't Jordan but he is the closest player to Jordan since he retired and perhaps the closest player to Jordan we have ever seen.

We all know you hate Kobe and your grew up idolizing Michael Jordan as your childhood hero but that dosen't make comparing Kobe to Jordan a crime, no matter how much you or other people dislike the comparisons and can't stand Kobe Bryant.

I mean Kobe is the 2nd greatest SG of all-time only behind Mike so why should anyone be upset at people comparing them and act like its blasphemy? Magic Johnson fans don't get infuriated and irate when people comparing him to Oscar. Tim Duncan fans don't get angry when people compare him to Karl Malone. Fans of Wilt and Russell don't get mad when you compare them and Kareem fans aren't mad if you compare him to Wilt, Russell or Shaq and vice versa, Bird fans don't get angry if you compare Erving etc. So what's so wrong about comparing Jordan to Kobe?

[JDKMagic]

Why? Kobe isn't Jordan but he is the closest player to Jordan since he retired and perhaps the closest player to Jordan we have ever seen.

We all know you hate Kobe and your grew up with Michael Jordan as your childhood hero but that dosen't make comparing Kobe to Jordan a crime, no matter how much you or other people dislike the comparisons and can't stand Kobe Bryant.

I mean Kobe is the 2nd greatest SG of all-time only behind Mike so why so anyone be upset at people comparing them and act like its blasphemy? Magic Johnson fans don't get infuriated and irate when people comparing him to Oscar. Tim Duncan fans don't get angry when people compare him to Karl Malone. Fans of Wilt and Russell don't get mad when you compare them and Kareem fans aren't mad if you compare him to Wilt, Russell or Shaq and vice versa, Bird fans don't get angry if you compare Erving etc. So what's so wrong about comparing Jordan to Kobe?

I swear some of you act like MJ is some sort of untouchable player. He was just another great player in the history of the game (we get at least one all-time great every decade)He was not by far and away the undisputed greatest like some of you believe that have been brainwashed by the media.

It's like some of you think he walked on water, opened the eyes of the blind and cured the sick.

They're not really comparable in terms of debating who was better other than to say that Jordan was #1 and Kobe is #2.

But if #1 scores 100% on a test and #2 scores 75% on a test, is it really fair to compare them and discuss who is better? No. As is the case here.

Jordan didn't walk on water or any of that nonsense. He was just a better basketball player, and it's not particularly debatable.

[G-Funk]

Stop trying to take attention away from the facts being argued.




Fact: If both players took 21 shots. Jordan would only make 1 more.

[G-Funk]

Don't try to elevate him to something he's not and people won't try to tear him down from something that he actually is, What came first? The chicken or the egg?
What came first? The Kobe fanboy or the Kobe hater?
:applause:

I wrote that to prove a point

[MasterDurant24]

Fact: If both players took 21 shots. Jordan would only make 1 more.
That isn't fact. You might of concluded that from their stats, but their production can vary any night. Unless your just saying this going by stats, which isn't a totally bad thing. There really isn't much else to determine how much more shots Jordan would mke.

[barbaroi]

:blah
You're still not reading the post :oldlol: . Take a moment to read what I wrote. Did you read it? Good. Now that you've done it, you will have realized that you wasted about an hour writing that post of yours because I already said that the 5-6% estimate was off. But so is yours. Every year for the last 6 years Kobe has scored above his career ppm ratio. That isn't going to stop now. Over the last 6 years Kobe has scored .7503 ppm. Your math assumes that he will score at his career rate of .69 ppm, which just isn't going to happen. Adjust for that and the estimate drops to an 11-12% difference in minutes.

As for the efficiency argument, I've never said that Kobe was more efficient, but rather that Jordan wasn't all that much more efficient. 55.7% to 56.9% is not much of a difference at all.

And Kobe's efficiency might fall off as he gets older, but it also might not. Reggie Miller's efficiency stayed the same virtually his entire career even at the age of 38-39, and Ray Allen has actually seen a boost to his efficiency in his later years; Jordan's fell off in his old age, but his TS% always had more fluctuation in it than Kobe's has ever had: Kobe's has sat between 54.4% and 58.0% his entire career. you can try and use last year as evidence of his efficiency declining, but through 30 games last year before injuries had taken their toll, Kobe was shooting a 56.9 TS%. And in the playoffs he managed a 56.7 TS% despite going up against 3 top 10 defenses.

We'll have to wait and see whether Kobe goes the Miller/Allen route or the Jordan one, but at the moment a 1.2% difference in efficiency is nothing to write home about.

[theaussieguy]

Do you know what the saddest thing about all this debating is....

I have known for ten years that JORDAN IS THE GOAT. I mean that is done and dusted and accepted worldwide and i am only 22. I am assuming the majority of posters here are American which is just sad. You guys have got to just let it go. Seriously you Americans really just have to get over yourselves (srs). I find it just so ming boggling that people are still going over this.

See the thing is, if Jordan were from any other country, he would be idolized by every last citizen of that country. I actually find it sickening at the lack of patriotism on these boards. You guys are argueing who is the GOAT between TWO FRIKKING AMERICANS. They are both American, they are both fukin awsome.

Americans seriously you arnt a world, you are a country. Theres a point where you just have to let go of all these made up boundaries (teams etc, conferences) and just appreciate the talent America has to offer as a whole.

Basketball is an international sport. Therefore every American basketball fan should support every last American player, despite what team he is playing for. Forget about all the teams in the NBA, you guys are forgetting that every single one of the great players that have gone through the NBA that are American, are YOURS, yours to claim. I really do not understand all of this arguing when each one of you can just agree to agree that America is the GOAT source of basketball stars. I mean wouldn't that make everyone happy.

I guess what im trying to say is, American Jordan Fans, don't be mad that there is a contender giving Jordan a run for his money, ESPECIALLY when he is from your country. Vice Versa too

[SinJackal]

Fact: If both players took 21 shots. Jordan would only make 1 more.

Which means he's a better scorer.



You're still not reading the post :oldlol: . Take a moment to read what I wrote. Did you read it? Good. Now that you've done it, you will have realized that you wasted about an hour writing that post of yours because I already said that the 5-6% estimate was off. But so is yours. Every year for the last 6 years Kobe has scored above his career ppm ratio. That isn't going to stop now. Over the last 6 years Kobe has scored .7503 ppm. Your math assumes that he will score at his career rate of .69 ppm, which just isn't going to happen. Adjust for that and the estimate drops to an 11-12% difference in minutes.

As for the efficiency argument, I've never said that Kobe was more efficient, but rather that Jordan wasn't all that much more efficient. 55.7% to 56.9% is not much of a difference at all.

And Kobe's efficiency might fall off as he gets older, but it also might not. Reggie Miller's efficiency stayed the same virtually his entire career even at the age of 38-39, and Ray Allen has actually seen a boost to his efficiency in his later years; Jordan's fell off in his old age, but his TS% always had more fluctuation in it than Kobe's has ever had: Kobe's has sat between 54.4% and 58.0% his entire career. you can try and use last year as evidence of his efficiency declining, but through 30 games last year before injuries had taken their toll, Kobe was shooting a 56.9 TS%. And in the playoffs he managed a 56.7 TS% despite going up against 3 top 10 defenses.

We'll have to wait and see whether Kobe goes the Miller/Allen route or the Jordan one, but at the moment a 1.2% difference in efficiency is nothing to write home about.

I did read your post. I replied to all of it (for the second time in a row).

An "hour" to make the post? LOL. I don't think so. I will even time this one for you. I most likely type, read, and think faster than you, so when I make a post, it takes a fraction of the time that it apparently would take you.

As for his points per minute, it's been only .722 for the last 3 years (combined), and been dropping every year for the past five years (With the exception of a slight increase between the 07-08 and 08-09 seasons). To claim he would have a .75+ over the next 2-3 seasons is ludicrous, as he has not had a rating that high for 4 seasons. You're skewing your numbers with his 05-07 years. Years which even you should be able to admit he won't be getting close to again.

So using a last 3 years ratio, which is more accurate, it's a bit over 13%. And as I said in my last post, he would need 13-14% more minutes than MJ to attain the same stats.

And as I've embarrassed you last time pointing out your fail math, I will do it again. 11%? Really? If he were to only play an extra 11% minutes, he would need to average a rate of nearly .8 per min up to that point (0.797). Which means you think he's going to average nearly 31 PPG over the next three seasons. Something he's clearly not capable of anymore.

It's going to be 13% at least. This assumes he's going to be scoring 27-28 PPG over the next 3 seasons. This is the maximum you can hope for. Factoring in decline, it's going to be 13.5% to 14% more minutes played to attain the same points as Jordan. So even if he doesn't decline at all over the next three years (huge if), he's still going to end up taking 13% extra time to attain the same points as MJ.

I can't believe you're still arguing this after I am explaining this to you so clearly, when you keep being so wrong.


About the TS%, Jordan's is better, Kobe's career TS% will never be better, nobody who isn't a moron disagrees with that, so there's no reason to even continue bantering about it. The point's been made and can't be countered. All you're doing is trying to cloud the issue with irrelevant information.

Of course, if you want to talk about playoff TS%.

Jordan: .568.
Kobe: .543.

We can do NBA Finals TS% if you want too, but you know that's going to be embarrassing if we do.


Entire post time: 9 mins while watching Chapplle Show and eating dinner. Most of which was doing the correct math. Does't' take long to read, type, and make a point.

[MasterDurant24]

Do you know what the saddest thing about all this debating is....

I have known for ten years that JORDAN IS THE GOAT. I mean that is done and dusted and accepted worldwide and i am only 22. I am assuming the majority of posters here are American which is just sad. You guys have got to just let it go. Seriously you Americans really just have to get over yourselves (srs). I find it just so ming boggling that people are still going over this.

See the thing is, if Jordan were from any other country, he would be idolized by every last citizen of that country. I actually find it sickening at the lack of patriotism on these boards. You guys are argueing who is the GOAT between TWO FRIKKING AMERICANS. They are both American, they are both fukin awsome.

Americans seriously you arnt a world, you are a country. Theres a point where you just have to let go of all these made up boundaries (teams etc, conferences) and just appreciate the talent America has to offer as a whole.

Basketball is an international sport. Therefore every American basketball fan should support every last American player, despite what team he is playing for. Forget about all the teams in the NBA, you guys are forgetting that every single one of the great players that have gone through the NBA that are American, are YOURS, yours to claim. I really do not understand all of this arguing when each one of you can just agree to agree that America is the GOAT source of basketball stars. I mean wouldn't that make everyone happy.

I guess what im trying to say is, American Jordan Fans, don't be mad that there is a contender giving Jordan a run for his money, ESPECIALLY when he is from your country. Vice Versa too
What the hell?

[chazzy]

About the TS%, Jordan's is better, Kobe's career TS% will never be better, nobody who isn't a moron disagrees with that, so there's no reason to even continue bantering about it. The point's been made and can't be countered. All you're doing is trying to cloud the issue with irrelevant information.

Of course, if you want to talk about playoff TS%.

Jordan: .568.
Kobe: .543.

We can do NBA Finals TS% if you want too, but you know that's going to be embarrassing if we do.


Been skimming through this thread. You keep arguing something that's not even being argued. All he's saying is that the difference between their efficiency is not as large as everyone makes it out to be. That's it. You're so eager to engage in Jordan>Kobe debate when no one is even disputing that.


As for the efficiency argument, I've never said that Kobe was more efficient

[barbaroi]

Which means he's a better scorer.




I did read your post. I replied to all of it (for the second time in a row).

An "hour" to make the post? LOL. I don't think so. I will even time this one for you. I most likely type, read, and think faster than you, so when I make a post, it takes a fraction of the time that it apparently would take you.

As for his points per minute, it's been only .722 for the last 3 years (combined), and been dropping every year for the past five years (With the exception of a slight increase between the 07-08 and 08-09 seasons). To claim he would have a .75+ over the next 2-3 seasons is ludicrous, as he has not had a rating that high for 4 seasons. You're skewing your numbers with his 05-07 years. Years which even you should be able to admit he won't be getting close to again.

So using a last 3 years ratio, which is more accurate, it's a bit over 13%. And as I said in my last post, he would need 13-14% more minutes than MJ to attain the same stats.

And as I've embarrassed you last time pointing out your fail math, I will do it again. 11%? Really? If he were to only play an extra 11% minutes, he would need to average a rate of nearly .8 per min up to that point (0.797). Which means you think he's going to average nearly 31 PPG over the next three seasons. Something he's clearly not capable of anymore.

It's going to be 13% at least. This assumes he's going to be scoring 27-28 PPG over the next 3 seasons. This is the maximum you can hope for. Factoring in decline, it's going to be 13.5% to 14% more minutes played to attain the same points as Jordan. So even if he doesn't decline at all over the next three years (huge if), he's still going to end up taking 13% extra time to attain the same points as MJ.

I can't believe you're still arguing this after I am explaining this to you so clearly, when you keep being so wrong.

I said 11-12% because it comes out to 12% if you use the .75 ppm which has been his ratio over the last 6 years. However if you decrease his minutes while keeping his scoring relatively the same, his ppm ratio would go up, thereby reaching the 11% mark. You assume that his minutes are going to stay the same and only adjust for ppg by saying he has to score 31 ppg to reach the 11% mark. If for example he scored 26.5 ppg in 33 mpg for the next 3 years, he would pass jordan having played only 10.9% more minutes. How is that an impossible scenario?

[tpols]

I said 11-12% because it comes out to 12% if you use the .75 ppm which has been his ratio over the last 6 years. However if you decrease his minutes while keeping his scoring relatively the same, his ppm ratio would go up, thereby reaching the 11% mark. You assume that his minutes are going to stay the same and only adjust for ppg by saying he has to score 31 ppg to reach the 11% mark. If for example he scored 26.5 ppg in 33 mpg for the next 3 years, he would pass jordan having played only 10.9% more minutes. How is that an impossible scenario?
Why the hell is sinjackal arguing semantics on expectations for how many more minutes it would take for kobe to catch mj? Who cares if the numbers were a few percents off, that wasn't even the main point of this guy's original post.

This guy needs to stop using strawman arguments in an attempt to look smart.:lol