What players in nba history could have won more than 6 rings with the Bulls

[griffmoney2084]

what players could have stepped in during their prime and won 7 with that roster?

- Horace Grant
- BJ armstrong
- John Paxson
- Scottie Pippen
- Ron Harper
- Dennis Rodman
- Steve Kerr
- Tony Kukoc

[Lebron23]

what players could have stepped in during their prime and won 7 with that roster?

- Horace Grant
- BJ armstrong
- John Paxson
- Scottie Pippen
- Ron Harper
- Dennis Rodman
- Steve Kerr
- Tony Kukoc


:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[OnceInADECADE]

disapprove + rep= DR

[OnceInADECADE]

i disapprove this message

[griffmoney2084]

what?

- Horace Grant ( 15/10 )
- BJ armstrong ( 15/4 )
- John Paxson ( great three point shooter )
- Scottie Pippen ( top 5 SF ever )
- Ron Harper ( averaged 20ppg season before going to chicago )
- Dennis Rodman ( greatest defensive player slash rebounder ever )
- Steve Kerr ( great three point shooter )
- Tony Kukoc ( 15/5/5 )


i think wilt, kobe, magic, bird and a few others could have won 7 with this team


MJ did afterall retire early twice

[Desperado]

Kobe Bryant.



*waits for MJ fans/Kobe haters go on a rampage*

[Dengness9]

Nice try. Failure.

[Ruh-Roh]

what players could have stepped in during their prime and won 7 with that roster?

- Horace Grant
- BJ armstrong
- John Paxson
- Scottie Pippen
- Ron Harper
- Dennis Rodman
- Steve Kerr
- Tony Kukoc

Shut the **** up already. Get off his nuts, it's so annoying with you. Even if you accidentally said something intelligent you would have discredited it with this kind of retarded bullshit serving as a preface.

Who could step in 2004 Lakers lineup and do more? Prolly a lot, because it's not just talent, it's personalities. And your favorite personality helped toxify that environment despite a veteran superstar cast.

You have P-Jax as your coach and you still don't ****ing get that.

[griffmoney2084]

Shut the **** up already. Get off his nuts, it's so annoying with you. Even if you accidentally said something intelligent you would have discredited it with this kind of retarded bullshit serving as a preface.

Who could step in 2004 Lakers lineup and do more? Prolly a lot, because it's not just talent, it's personalities. And your favorite personality helped toxify that environment despite a veteran superstar cast.

You have P-Jax as your coach and you still don't ****ing get that.

its just funny how everyones so quick to facepalm

while jordan gave up on


1994

1995

1999

2000

2001



kobes longevity and desire to win wouldnt have let him quit for all those years

1 more ring added to 6 isnt out of the question

[Ruh-Roh]

kobes longevity and desire to win wouldnt have let him quit for all those years

1 more ring added to 6 isnt out of the question

If he truly desired to win he would have shut the **** up about his issues with Shaq and won 10 in a row, but he didn't, and we'll never know.

What if MJ never retired the first time (and only early time, except according to you). He did, and we'll never know.

And congrats on completely missing my point.

[griffmoney2084]

If he truly desired to win he would have shut the **** up about his issues with Shaq and won 10 in a row, but he didn't.


wrong

his desire to win got that fat out of shape 360 pound lard shipped out of LA and built a new dynesty because of it

shaqs finished now while paus prime

NEXT :roll:

[Desperado]

Kobe Bryant.



*waits for MJ fans/Kobe haters go on a rampage*


And there it is. :applause:

Ruh-Roh is furious! :oldlol:

[griffmoney2084]

if jordan had love for the game instead of just a desire to prove people wrong, he might have 7,8 or 9 rings

[DuMa]

another idiotic thread made by another idiotic kobe fan. what else is new?

[Ruh-Roh]

wrong

his desire to win got that fat out of shape 360 pound lard shipped out of LA and built a new dynesty because of it

shaqs finished now while paus prime

NEXT :roll:

You mean the front-office built a new team (not dynasty ****tard) because Kobe was demanding a trade? Yeah he was really committed to winning with the Lakers then.

Shaq was still effective, as he proved in 2006.

[joyner82]

Kobe probably wins 8+ because he wouldn't have gotten banned for gambling.

[griffmoney2084]

Kobe probably wins 8+ because he wouldn't have gotten banned for gambling.


and his dad would still be there to cheer him on

:roll:

[AK47DR91]

and his dad would still be there to cheer him on

:roll:

You're making a joke out of murdered victim?

Burn in Hell, c0cksucking fa99ot!

[Ruh-Roh]

and his dad would still be there to cheer him on

:roll:

You gotta be kidding with that shit. How much did ratings go down when Jordan left, both in 1994 and then 1999. Look up the Finals views. Jordan was a cash cow, they begged him to stay in 1994.

Watch the 30-for-30 man.

Everyone has their flaws but that's pretty scummy to make that claim when no evidence has surfaced to date supporting it.

I guess that's how classy you are.

[griffmoney2084]

You're making a joke out of murdered victim?

Burn in Hell, c0cksucking fa99ot!


oh comon its been 17 years :oldlol:

patrick swayze was only dead for 10 minutes before ghost references popped up

[griffmoney2084]

You gotta be kidding with that shit. How much did ratings go down when Jordan left, both in 1994 and then 1999. Look up the Finals views. Jordan was a cash cow, they begged him to stay in 1994.

Watch the 30-for-30 man.

Everyone has their flaws but that's pretty scummy to make that claim when no evidence has surfaced to date supporting it.

I guess that's how classy you are.


didnt they say the debts were tied to it


no one just randomly gets robbed for championship rings and cash equaling their sons debts

[Desperado]

You gotta be kidding with that shit. How much did ratings go down when Jordan left, both in 1994 and then 1999. Look up the Finals views. Jordan was a cash cow, they begged him to stay in 1994.

Watch the 30-for-30 man.

Everyone has their flaws but that's pretty scummy to make that claim when no evidence has surfaced to date supporting it.

I guess that's how classy you are.


“Five years down the road, if the urge comes back, if the Bulls will have me, if David Stern lets me back in the league, I may come back.” - Michael Jordan

I don't care what 30-for-30 says.

He must have been in some kind of trouble because if he decided to come back then why would he need Sterns permission? Is it really a coincidence that he left right around the time the gambling and betting was really becoming public?

I think it was quite obvious that Michael Jordan was asked to take time off. David Stern couldn’t lose the league he help build with a crooked, gambling lead man.

[Ruh-Roh]

didnt they say the debts were tied to it


no one just randomly gets robbed for championship rings and cash equaling their sons debts

No, some reporters who knew Jordan was a serious gambler made the decision to run with the story to get the quick ratings before other news associations got the drop, despite the fact no one in the League or law enforcement made any statements supporting those allegations.

It was a really nasty rumor that would have been validated by someone by now if there was any truth to it.

People saw the potential coincidence, and instead of choosing the respectable route of journalism, they went for the quick headline.

[OnceInADECADE]

you should be ban 4 life

[Showtime]

Obvious troll is obvious

[Ruh-Roh]

[QUOTE=Desperado]

[no pun intended]

Hey, Griffmoney. Have you met TheLogo? You guys could be best buddies.

[Manute for Ever!]

what players could have stepped in during their prime and won 7 with that roster?

- Horace Grant
- BJ armstrong
- John Paxson
- Scottie Pippen
- Ron Harper
- Dennis Rodman
- Steve Kerr
- Tony Kukoc

You do realise that, with the exception of Pippen, none of those players were on both 3-Peats with MJ.

First 3-Peat:

Horace Grant
B.J. Armstrong
John Paxson
Scottie Pippen

Second 3-Peat:

Scottie Pippen
Ron Harper
Dennis Rodman
Steve Kerr

How would you react if I started the thread:


What players in nba history could have won more than 5 rings with the Lakers

what players could have stepped in during their prime and won 6 with that roster?

-Shaquille O'Neal
-Glen Rice
-Ron Harper
-A.C. Green
-Derek Fisher
-Horace Grant
-Robert Horry
-Mitch Richmond
-Andrew Bynum
-Lamar Odom
-Pau Gasol
-Ron Artest
See what just happened?

[bdreason]

Players who could have won rings with that team are probably; Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem, Duncan, Magic, and Bird.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Players who could have won rings with that team are probably; Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem, Duncan, Magic, and Bird.

I'll go even further: any top 15 player could have won at least one, possibly a few rings, with that team. No one would win 6 in 6 years the way Jordan did. Guys like Magic/Bird could win 4-5; a guy like Kobe would win 3-4 imo.

[nbastatus]

Are you hoping for us to say Kobe?

[Fatal9]

I'll go even further: any top 15 player could have won at least one, possibly a few rings, with that team. No one would win 6 in 6 years the way Jordan did. Guys like Magic/Bird could win 4-5; a guy like Kobe would win 3-4 imo.
Kareem/Grant/Pippen (crazy defensive frontline with a high volume efficient scorer like Kareem) + shooters + GOAT coach...where is the weakness in that team? Who is stopping them? That's 6+ rings in the bag if rest of the teams remain as they were.

Hakeem/Grant/Pippen/BJ is also sick. Magic and Bird don't fit as well with those teams imo, a scoring center (who is not a liability in crunch time) or a high volume scoring SG are what fit best with those teams.

[griffmoney2084]

You do realise that, with the exception of Pippen, none of those players were on both 3-Peats with MJ.

First 3-Peat:

Horace Grant
B.J. Armstrong
John Paxson
Scottie Pippen

Second 3-Peat:

Scottie Pippen
Ron Harper
Dennis Rodman
Steve Kerr

How would you react if I started the thread:


See what just happened?


someones butt is hurt

and i made this thread because im sick of all the stupid "what if jordan had shaq" garbage

or "jordan would have won more rings with shaq"


fact is 5 or more guys would have won more rings than jordan with those bulls teams

[ShaqAttack3234]

I'll go even further: any top 15 player could have won at least one, possibly a few rings, with that team. No one would win 6 in 6 years the way Jordan did. Guys like Magic/Bird could win 4-5; a guy like Kobe would win 3-4 imo.

It all depends on what stage of their careers each player is in. Jordan had a longer prime than Magic or Bird so it's hard to compare because Phil didn't come to Chicago until Jordan's 6th season when Pippen emerged as an all-star. I can't think of anyone who could have won with Jordan's 80's casts.

It's also tough to say how well those teams would have complemented Magic and Bird.

As far as Kobe? He's obviously a more direct comparison because his game is the most similar to Jordan's, but again, it depends on what stage of his career he got that team in. I think Kobe was first ready to lead a team in the 2005-2006 season.

It's tough to imagine any of the other top 10 perimeter players winning 6 in that situation. Bird would have the best chance if we assumed that Bird entered the league in 1990 because otherwise his longevity wouldn't allow him to challenge it.

[Manute for Ever!]

someones butt is hurt

and i made this thread because im sick of all the stupid "what if jordan had shaq" garbage

or "jordan would have won more rings with shaq"


fact is 5 or more guys would have won more rings than jordan with those bulls teams

Not butt-hurt at all, I'm just sick of agenda-driven trolls, you being the absolute worst, continually making these bullshit Kobe threads and don't try and say that it isn't intended to be about kobe.
If you're going to try and make a thread like this, at least know what you are talking about, or try to pretend to.

Kobe trolls started it, the Jordan threads get made, I'm assuming, to show you guys
A) how ****ing annoying it is, and
B) How wrong you tools truly are.

[triangleoffense]

lol i think it's hilarious how much griffloser says "lol u mad" or "lol u butthurt". He must be either homosexual or actually butthurt all the time. Probably from taking it from Kobe. I mean I think Kobe is a great player.. but damn.


Not butt-hurt at all, I'm just sick of agenda-driven trolls, you being the absolute worst, continually making these bullshit Kobe threads and don't try and say that it isn't intended to be about kobe.
If you're going to try and make a thread like this, at least know what you are talking about, or try to pretend to.

Kobe trolls started it, the Jordan threads get made, I'm assuming, to show you guys
A) how ****ing annoying it is, and
B) How wrong you tools truly are.

I would say nice post but any post that is in response to a post by griffag is a failed post.

[griffmoney2084]

Not butt-hurt at all, I'm just sick of agenda-driven trolls, you being the absolute worst, continually making these bullshit Kobe threads and don't try and say that it isn't intended to be about kobe.
If you're going to try and make a thread like this, at least know what you are talking about, or try to pretend to.

Kobe trolls started it, the Jordan threads get made, I'm assuming, to show you guys
A) how ****ing annoying it is, and
B) How wrong you tools truly are.


butts be hurtin :oldlol:

[Manute for Ever!]

butts be hurtin :oldlol:

Nice come back.

[Toizumi]

someones butt is hurt

and i made this thread because im sick of all the stupid "what if jordan had shaq" garbage

or "jordan would have won more rings with shaq"


fact is 5 or more guys would have won more rings than jordan with those bulls teams

how is that a fact? lol.

[griffmoney2084]

Nice come back.


thanks :confusedshrug:

[griffmoney2084]

how is that a fact? lol.


because no one other than jordan has quit on life as many times as he

and theres atleast 5 other legends with just as much to offer if not more


wilt, kobe, magic, bird = all would have played from 1990 to 2001 if not a single injury or illness held them back

and the bulls would be atleast 7 time champs

[nbacardDOTnet]

what players could have stepped in during their prime and won 7 with that roster?

- Horace Grant
- BJ armstrong
- John Paxson
- Scottie Pippen
- Ron Harper
- Dennis Rodman
- Steve Kerr
- Tony Kukoc

:facepalm


You do realise that, with the exception of Pippen, none of those players were on both 3-Peats with MJ.

First 3-Peat:

Horace Grant
B.J. Armstrong
John Paxson
Scottie Pippen

Second 3-Peat:

Scottie Pippen
Ron Harper
Dennis Rodman
Steve Kerr

How would you react if I started the thread:


See what just happened?

this

[Leviathon1121]

someones butt is hurt

and i made this thread because im sick of all the stupid "what if jordan had shaq" garbage

or "jordan would have won more rings with shaq"


fact is 5 or more guys would have won more rings than jordan with those bulls teams


how is that a fact? lol.


because no one other than jordan has quit on life as many times as he

I warned the mods after this idiots first post on this site, he has done nothing but prove me right. Why is he still here?

[step_back]

I'm not going to come in here and bash Kobe because I hate griffmoney, Kobe is a great player. It is unfortunate that retarded folk like griffmoney help towards ruining kobes image.

It screams insecurity.

[necya]

please send money to griffmoney family

[SEEBASS1234]

This guy http://www.abril.com.br/imagem/brian-scalabrine-media-day-1g.jpg

[plowking]

what?

- Horace Grant ( 15/10 )
- BJ armstrong ( 15/4 )
- John Paxson ( great three point shooter )
- Scottie Pippen ( top 5 SF ever )
- Ron Harper ( averaged 20ppg season before going to chicago )
- Dennis Rodman ( greatest defensive player slash rebounder ever )
- Steve Kerr ( great three point shooter )
- Tony Kukoc ( 15/5/5 )


i think wilt, kobe, magic, bird and a few others could have won 7 with this team


MJ did afterall retire early twice

I agree. Kobe could have 7 rings as Scottie's side kick. That would have been an awesome duo.

[PowerGlove]

please send money to griffmoney family
:roll:

[whatever666]

DJ Mbenga no doubt.

[NBASTATMAN]

I'll go even further: any top 15 player could have won at least one, possibly a few rings, with that team. No one would win 6 in 6 years the way Jordan did. Guys like Magic/Bird could win 4-5; a guy like Kobe would win 3-4 imo.


Hakeem could have gotten 4 or 5 as well.. I think he is the most underrated player of the 80's and 90's.. Hakeem was great on offense but was even better on defense.. He is the best defender I have ever seen...

[NBASTATMAN]

I agree. Kobe could have 7 rings as Scottie's side kick. That would have been an awesome duo.
:roll:

[Desperado]

You could easily could replace Jordan with a player like Dominique Wilkins or Clyde Drexler during that time and the Bulls would still win 6 rings.

After all without Pippen, Jordan was nothing more than a bald-headed Dominique Wilkins. (Flashy dunks, 0 rings)

[Yung D-Will]

You could easily could replace Jordan with a player like Dominique Wilkins or Clyde Drexler during that time and the Bulls would still win 6 rings.

After all without Pippen, Jordan was nothing more than a bald-headed Dominique Wilkins. (Flashy dunks, 0 rings)

hahahahahhahahahahaha


Dominique on the Bulls would have beat the Jazz?

Excuse me as I barf :roll:

[juju151111]

You could easily could replace Jordan with a player like Dominique Wilkins or Clyde Drexler during that time and the Bulls would still win 6 rings.

After all without Pippen, Jordan was nothing more than a bald-headed Dominique Wilkins. (Flashy dunks, 0 rings)
Kobe nutgagger ^. Mj is the goat while Kome bryant isn't. This much will never change, no matter how much of the BS u spill out here. I just wish prime Mj was on the bulls today. Kome won't even get another title to his name.

[Kellogs4toniee]

Haha, this is getting funny. ISH is getting so ridiculous these days. How someone like this lam-o can keep posting the crap and threads like he does and not get banned is beyond me. This entire thread was quite humorous, maybe that was your point. In that case :applause:

[Glide2keva]

Steps to dealing with trolls and idiots.

Step 1: Put troll on ignore

Step 2: People who don't have trolls on ignore, stop quoting them so those that have them on ignore won't see their idiotic posts.

This way if no one sees them, they will wither and die.

[Desperado]

Kobe nutgagger ^. Mj is the goat while Kome bryant isn't. This much will never change, no matter how much of the BS u spill out here. I just wish prime Mj was on the bulls today. Kome won't even get another title to his name.

His airness *cough* I mean his hairless, is not the goat!

I also wish MJ would come back out of retirement so Kobe can score 55 on him again.

Jordan didn't win shyt in the great 80's.

He only won in the weak watered down 90's after all the great teams fell apart and Magic and Bird entered their twilight.

[Papaya Petee]

Clearly no Kobe Bryant, because he got carried in 3 rings and won 0 without a dominant big man which Jordan didn't have.

[AK47DR91]

How players have won 6 titles in a span of 8 years? Technically, 7 years if you omit 93-1994 season since Jordan was out.

Russell's Celtics did better but that's about it.

No one has even come close!!!

[Desperado]

The Bulls replaced MJ with a CBA journeyman named Pete Myers and they still won 55 games. :oldlol:

[Manute for Ever!]

The Bulls replaced MJ with a CBA journeyman named Pete Myers and they still won 55 games. :oldlol:

Keep digging...

[DKLaker]

Adam Morrison....back to back champion could've :oldlol:

[TheLogo]

lol @ people hijacking the thread and not wanting to answer the question....to get back on topic.

I am going with guys of MJ's era, so I believe Drexler, Malone, Mitch Richmond, Starks or basically any top 5 shooting guard of that era would have won with the Bulls.

[Soundwave]

No one.

No one's ever won multiple titles without a high-end big man (meaning someone at least in the 18-20 ppg/9-11 rpg range).

Winning SIX titles in eight years (or basically six in six full seasons) hasn't been done since Bill Russell.

Shaq + Kobe + a good supporting cast behind them couldn't win more than 3 in a row.

If you put prime Shaq on the Bulls ...

C- Shaq
PF- Grant
SF- Pippen
SG- Harper (?)
PG- Armstrong

I think they'd win 3 in a row.

[magnax1]

Probably none. Especially with the early 90's teams that really weren't all that talented.

[TheLogo]

Bulls won 55 with Pete Meyers at shooting guard.

If you put another star guard, they would have never skipped a beat when MJ retired.

[Soundwave]

Bulls won 55 with Pete Meyers at shooting guard.

If you put another star guard, they would have never skipped a beat when MJ retired.

Regular season wins are overstated, and I think it's fair to say in '94 ... more than a few teams took the Bulls for granted early on thinking they were done without MJ. They took advantage of that to inflate their record a bit.

The early 90s Cavs always had great regular season records ... never won sh-t in the playoffs though.

You're asking for basically SIX straight titles too ... think about that.

The second threepeat Bulls honestly weren't even that stacked. Half the roster were journey-men/average to mediocre NBA talent -- Jud Bucheler? Randy Brown? Luc Longley? Bill Wennington? Dickey Simpkins? 90-year-old Robert Parish?

[Ikill]

I don't think any could of won more bird magic and russel could of done it and wilt and kareem were just unstoppable they would of got 4-5. Kobe maybe 2-3 i would say wade too 3-4.Duncan and shaq could of got a few. But nobody gets more than 6

[TheLogo]

The second threepeat Bulls honestly weren't even that stacked.

The starting 5 and Kukoc says otherwise.

[Soundwave]

The starting 5 and Kukoc says otherwise.

Not really.

Horace Grant was a better player than Toni Kukoc (by far). They lost B.J. Armstrong too who was better than washed-up Ron Harper.

The second threepeat Bulls never really had more than two reliable scorers on the entire roster.

Kukoc's game was like a box of chocolates .... you never knew which guy was going to show up.

When people say the 80s Celtics and Lakers were deeper than the Bulls ... that's obviously true, but not really MJ's fault ... the NBA post-expansion had changed.

[Svendiggity]

Biased fans like Griffmoney are just giving the new generation of basketball fans reasons to hate Kobe. He thinks he's helping by "propping" Kobe up or whatever he thinks he's doing by making threads like this. But, he's really just adding to the Kobe hate. It's a shame really.

[Ikill]

Biased fans like Griffmoney are just giving the new generation of basketball fans reasons to hate Kobe. He thinks he's helping by "propping" Kobe up or whatever he thinks he's doing by making threads like this. But, he's really just adding to the Kobe hate. It's a shame really.
As soon as kobe retires he won't be a top 10 player ever anymore he'll drop to 15-20

[Sakkreth]

:facepalm

Op made question, and i thought why would he make new thread if it's not bout kobe, well i red further and got no surprise...

[Jacks3]

Bulls won 55 with Pete Meyers at shooting guard.

If you put another star guard, they would have never skipped a beat when MJ retired.
Yep. True.

[Soundwave]

Why didn't Pippen win the title in 1999 with Hakeem and Barkley then? He was only one year removed from the dynasty Bulls at this point.

Where was he in '95 when a rusty Jordan needed him to step up and carry a bigger part of the load versus Orlando?

Pip just watched helplessly in 2000 as the Trailblazers pulled off one of the biggest choke jobs in NBA playoffs history to boot.

Insert any star guard with Pippen and they win 6 titles in 8 seasons ... I don't think so.

If you replace Jordan with "another star guard" the Utah Jazz win the titles in 97 and 98 at the very least, Portland ('92) and Phoenix's ('93) odds rise dramatically too if you remove MJ from the equation with a more average guard.

I think they would take the Lakers in '91 and Sonics '96, though even there, that Lakers series was pretty close early on, Jordan just overwhelmed the Lakers with devastating game 2 and 3 performances.

[Ruh-Roh]

Why didn't Pippen win the title in 1999 with Hakeem and Barkley then? He was only one year removed from the dynasty Bulls at this point.

Where was he in '95 when a rusty Jordan needed him to step up and carry a bigger part of the load versus Orlando?

Pip just watched helplessly in 2000 as the Trailblazers pulled off one of the biggest choke jobs in NBA playoffs history to boot.

Insert any star guard with Pippen and they win 6 titles in 8 seasons ... I don't think so.

Pippen and Barkley got along horribly for all kinds of reasons that I still don't really understand. It's fun to fantasize about dream teams and what-if replacement scenarios, but some groups work unexpectedly well, and some choke harder than a porn audition.

If I told you I thought Jordan would win 6 titles in 7 seasons of playing without ever having an all-star caliber center back in say the late 1980s, I'd be laughed out of the room by Larry Bird, Magic Johnson & Bad Boy Pistons fans, everyone in the sportswriting industry, and most of the players on the rosters, Bulls included.

I was also certain that 2004 Lakers were going to get a title. If you told me Gary Payton, Karl Malone, Shaq and Kobe would be upset by the Pistons who were swept by the Nets the year before, I would really consider not taking anything you say seriously anymore.

Basketball chemistry is full of too many reactants that aren't tangible enough to make definite answers for when hypothesizing what could be.

[TheLogo]

These guys here would have won 6 titles with the Bulls if they replaced Michael Jordan.


John Starks -

Offensively Starks was just an average player at best, but he was a fantastic defensive player giving players like Michael Jordan a hard time in the playoffs for many years. Starks defensive tenacity is part of the reason the NBA outlawed hand checking in the mid 1990s. Starks was a one time All-star while playing for the New York Knicks in 1994, the same year he and the Knicks made the NBA finals

Mitch Richmond -

Some may be surprised to see him here, but Richard was the most proficient scoring guard in the NBA in the 1990s. His 16,173 points between 1990 and 2000 put him well ahead of Reggie Miller in that department and he has nearly 1,000 more points than Jordan. Richmond was a six time all-star with the Kings and Wizards and a consistent 20 points a night scorer with a career high of 26 points per game in 1997. The biggest knock on Richard was that his teams were always bad. The Kings made a playoff appearance in 1996 but lost in the fist round, but his last year in the NBA he did win a title with the Los Angeles Lakers but appeared in only two playoff games. He was also the 1995 All-star game MVP.

Reggie Miller -

The second highest scoring guard in the decade behind Richmond, Miller was 5 time all-star and helped guide the Pacers to the 2000 NBA finals. He played his entire career with the Pacers and that may have hurt him in getting recognition because 5 times in his career did he average over 20 points a game and did not make the all-star team. Miller was also a fantastic shooter, he loved to curl off of screens and knock down the three ball.

Clyde Drexler -

The Glyde is one of the most successful players of the 90s, he won a NBA title with the Rockets in 1995 and was 7 time all-star in the 1990s and made the All-NBA team once. He helped Portland make the finals twice, once in 1990 and again in 1992.

[Simple Jack]

Bulls won 55 with Pete Meyers at shooting guard.

If you put another star guard, they would have never skipped a beat when MJ retired.

Remind me what happened the year after that.

[Jacks3]

Kobe, LeBron, Wade would have won 2-4 book it.

[guy]

These guys here would have won 6 titles with the Bulls if they replaced Michael Jordan.


John Starks -

Offensively Starks was just an average player at best, but he was a fantastic defensive player giving players like Michael Jordan a hard time in the playoffs for many years. Starks defensive tenacity is part of the reason the NBA outlawed hand checking in the mid 1990s. Starks was a one time All-star while playing for the New York Knicks in 1994, the same year he and the Knicks made the NBA finals

Mitch Richmond -

Some may be surprised to see him here, but Richard was the most proficient scoring guard in the NBA in the 1990s. His 16,173 points between 1990 and 2000 put him well ahead of Reggie Miller in that department and he has nearly 1,000 more points than Jordan. Richmond was a six time all-star with the Kings and Wizards and a consistent 20 points a night scorer with a career high of 26 points per game in 1997. The biggest knock on Richard was that his teams were always bad. The Kings made a playoff appearance in 1996 but lost in the fist round, but his last year in the NBA he did win a title with the Los Angeles Lakers but appeared in only two playoff games. He was also the 1995 All-star game MVP.

Reggie Miller -

The second highest scoring guard in the decade behind Richmond, Miller was 5 time all-star and helped guide the Pacers to the 2000 NBA finals. He played his entire career with the Pacers and that may have hurt him in getting recognition because 5 times in his career did he average over 20 points a game and did not make the all-star team. Miller was also a fantastic shooter, he loved to curl off of screens and knock down the three ball.

Clyde Drexler -

The Glyde is one of the most successful players of the 90s, he won a NBA title with the Rockets in 1995 and was 7 time all-star in the 1990s and made the All-NBA team once. He helped Portland make the finals twice, once in 1990 and again in 1992.

Wow. You're an idiot.

[TheLogo]

Wow. You're an idiot.

lol@ the name calling response.

very intelligent.

:facepalm

[Soundwave]

Clyde wouldn't win 6 titles in 7 seasons with Hakeem (a far superior player to Pippen) let alone Richmond/Reggie with Pippen.

[Ruh-Roh]

These guys here would have won 6 titles with the Bulls if they replaced Michael Jordan.


John Starks -
....


How can I take anything you say after naming this guy seriously.

Starks wasn't even close to being mature enough to lead a team to the title. Did you see how hard Ewing and others chewed him out in front of everyone for retarded mistakes?

If you really think a 1-time all star and sixth man of the year is a viable replacement to recreate Jordan's success then you are on the wrong combination of meds.

:facepalm

[guy]

lol@ the name calling response.

very intelligent.

:facepalm

LOL@you bringing up intelligence after claiming John Starks could replace Jordan and win 6 titles. HILARIOUS. In fact the idea that any of the players you mentioned could replace Jordan and win 6 titles is hilarious.

[Soundwave]

I don't think one player leading his team to six titles in basically six consecutive seasons is going to happen in the NBA ever again.

It's really only happened twice (Russell and Jordan) in NBA history.

LeBron and Wade if they can click have the best shot at it now. But if they can't do it, I'm not sure if anyone will have that kind of sustained consistent dominance over one era.

There will be dynasties to come of course, but when you're talking about winning a championship for every season you start out of training camp 6 or more straight times ... that is an *insane* level of dominance.

[Desperado]

Jordan did not carry a bunch of marginal role players to 6 championships - The Bulls were a very, very good team with or without Michael Jordan. The argument I present proves beyond a shadow of doubt that Jordan simply wasn't as valuable as his friends in the media would like to make him out to be.


http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/19941995.htm


Jordan does not make those around him better - Dismantling the myth. He played with very good teammates who did just fine without him.

http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/supportingcast.htm

[Simple Jack]

Jordan did not carry a bunch of marginal role players to 6 championships - The Bulls were a very, very good team with or without Michael Jordan. The argument I present proves beyond a shadow of doubt that Jordan simply wasn't as valuable as his friends in the media would like to make him out to be.


http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/19941995.htm


Jordan does not make those around him better - Dismantling the myth. He played with very good teammates who did just fine without him.

http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/supportingcast.htm

I'll ask you too. Can you remind me what happened during the 2nd year of Jordan's retirement?

[Desperado]

When MJ retired in October of '93 the critics predicted gloom and doom for the Bulls. (I was one of these critics). Some even declared that without Jordan, the Bulls wouldn't even make the playoffs.

Because Jordan waited so late to retire, the Bulls were not able to pick up an adequate starter in free agency. They settled with Pete Myers from the CBA. They were set up to fail. Myers had a defensive reputation, but no where near that of Jordan, who had been named first-team all-defense 6 times and won the defensive player of the year award. Furthermore, Myeres hadn't even played in the NBA for the last two years, and he never averaged more than 5 points per game. How can you replace Jordan's 32 ppg and all-world defense with this guy? The Bulls were set up to fail. These predictions were also made - and all of them were reasonable assumptions.

Even Phil Jackson thought and predicted that the Bulls would slip 15 games. In his autobiography, Sacred Hoops. He based this upon the retirement of superstars from the past. Replacing Jordan with Myers should have been detrimental. However, the Bulls only slipped 2 games: from 57-25 with Jordan in 1993 to 55-27 in 1994. How could this be? They should have fallen apart.

[Desperado]

The Bulls in '94 won 55 games (only 2 less than the season before) and would have made it to the Finals if Hue Hollins didn't make one of the worst foul calls against Scottie and the Bulls. Not to mention Mike retired at the last minute and they couldn't pick up a good free agent so they had to sign a CBA journeyman named Pete Myers.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/columns/story?columnist=adande_ja&page=Hollins-090529

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/readers/worstcalls.html

[Soundwave]

Typical Kobe-stan gambit.

They don't give two sh-ts about Pippen, the only reason they cling to this argument is because it's the only one they can come up with to delegitimize Jordan.

You even whisper that Pippen is in Kobe's league, and what how quick they turn tail on this.

[Desperado]

When MJ retired in October of '93 the critics predicted gloom and doom for the Bulls. (I was one of these critics). Some even declared that without Jordan, the Bulls wouldn't even make the playoffs.

Because Jordan waited so late to retire, the Bulls were not able to pick up an adequate starter in free agency. They settled with Pete Myers from the CBA. They were set up to fail. Myers had a defensive reputation, but no where near that of Jordan, who had been named first-team all-defense 6 times and won the defensive player of the year award. Furthermore, Myeres hadn't even played in the NBA for the last two years, and he never averaged more than 5 points per game. How can you replace Jordan's 32 ppg and all-world defense with this guy? The Bulls were set up to fail. These predictions were also made - and all of them were reasonable assumptions.

Even Phil Jackson thought and predicted that the Bulls would slip 15 games. In his autobiography, Sacred Hoops. He based this upon the retirement of superstars from the past. Replacing Jordan with Myers should have been detrimental. However, the Bulls only slipped 2 games: from 57-25 with Jordan in 1993 to 55-27 in 1994. How could this be? They should have fallen apart.

Funny thing is that if Grant and Pippen played as many games as they did in '93 that year, the Bulls would have won 59-61 games in '94 (they were a ridiculous 44-16 in games Grant and Pippen played). Not only would they have topped the win total of the '93 Bulls by replacing MJ with Pete Myers, but also would have the best record in the league. Not a bad cast and "#2" Mike was working with huh...

[Soundwave]

Funny thing is that if Grant and Pippen played as many games as they did in '93 that year, the Bulls would have won 59-61 games in '94 (they were a ridiculous 44-16 in games Grant and Pippen played). Not only would they have topped the win total of the '93 Bulls by replacing MJ with Pete Myers, but also would have the best record in the league. Not a bad cast and "#2" Mike was working with huh...

Guess that means Pippen was better than Kobe. What was the best season Kobe had with Odom (comparable to Grant) as his no.2 option?

Ruh-roh ... Kobe stan meltdown ... incoming ...

[Rhyen]

All this arguing gives me a huge chubby!

Actually it just disgusts me as a basketball fan... 1.) some homers need to get sodomized if they ever post again... 2.) The "what-if's" on these forums are getting tiring. 3.) comparing players of different era's is sort of pointless considering the fact that there is a 'we will never know' clause.


can't wait for the f*cking season to start.

[chris2010]

hmmmm hakeem lol

[Alhazred]

Jordan did not carry a bunch of marginal role players to 6 championships - The Bulls were a very, very good team with or without Michael Jordan. The argument I present proves beyond a shadow of doubt that Jordan simply wasn't as valuable as his friends in the media would like to make him out to be.


http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/19941995.htm


Jordan does not make those around him better - Dismantling the myth. He played with very good teammates who did just fine without him.

http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/supportingcast.htm

If Michael didn't make his teammates better, then please explain why Scottie's field goal percentages against the Knicks in 1994 were inferior from the 1993 ECF.

1993 ECF with MJ:

Game1- 24 points 8/19 field goals

Game 2- 17 points 7/12 field goals

Game 3- 29 points 10/12 field goals

Game 4- 13 Points 4/14 field goals

Game 5- 28 points 12/23 field goals

Game 6- 24 points 9/18 field goals

1994 ECSF without MJ:

Game 1- 24 points 7/19 field goals

Game 2- 22 points 5/15 field goals

Game 3- 25 points 10/20 field goals

Game 4- 25 points 10/21 field goals

Game 5- 23 points 8/18 field goals

Game 6- 13 points 5/16 field goals

Game 7- 20 points 8/22 field goals

This isn't to say that the Bulls were a weak team, but to say that MJ had little to no impact on his teammate's is beyond ridiculous.

Also, a few other things I'd like to address:

The piece on John Paxson is crap. Why on Earth would you want a traditional point guard when you already have two excellent playmakers like MJ and Scottie on your team? :facepalm Plus you failed to mention that the Wizards record was .500 in 60 games with Jordan his first season there despite the fact that they only won 19 games the previous year. They won 37 games the next season and after MJ retired their record dropped by 12 wins without him and that was when he was 39...

There's other things on those pages that I'd like to address, but I'm not going to do it right now.

[Roundball_Rock]

think it's fair to say in '94 ... more than a few teams took the Bulls for granted early on thinking they were done without MJ. They took advantage of that to inflate their record a bit.

Yeah, the Bulls went on a 30-5 tear, including something like a 14-2 streak, when Pippen came back from his injury and were tied for the best record in the East by the all-star break. Obviously this was because no one in the league was smart enough to look at the standings and see where the Bulls were. :oldlol: The only thing that cost them the #1 seed was injuries.


Where was he in '95 when a rusty Jordan needed him to step up and carry a bigger part of the load versus Orlando?

:oldlol: He averaged something like 20/10/7/3 in that series on good efficiency while dominating defensively (i.e. he shut down Horace Grant, who was torching Kukoc to the point of shooting 70% for most of the series). Pippen got noticeably tired at the end of games because he was literally asked to do everything for the team (run the offense, anchor the defense, grab 10 boards, score 20 points, be a team leader, etc.) yet you are complaining that Jordan was the one who needed to have his load lightened? Jordan fans. :roll:


Why didn't Pippen win the title in 1999 with Hakeem and Barkley then? He was only one year removed from the dynasty Bulls at this point.

His 98' finals back injury that ended his prime overnight. Pippen himself has said this. Superstar Pippen on that team would have done well but Hakeem and Barkley were well past their primes as well so they wouldn't have won a ring that year. Pippen probably would have won in 94' if MJ retired in a normal fashion, not 2 days before training camp and the Bulls found a NBA SG to replace Jordan.

Why couldn't Jordan without Pippen do any better than Pippen without Jordan in Chicago? Pippen without Jordan in 94' led the Bulls to wins 71% of the time; Jordan without Pippen won 69% of the time for half a season without Pippen in 98'. Yeah, MJ was 34 in 98' but he was still the MVP of the league and surely MJ fans think 98' Jordan>94' Pippen!


Pip just watched helplessly in 2000 as the Trailblazers pulled off one of the biggest choke jobs in NBA playoffs history to boot.

More of the same. Pippen led that team (see how Bob Costas and NBC present him and Shaq as the leaders of their teams..."Pippen has led his team back from the brink of elimination..." Get it? "Led", "his team"...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Njpj8ei_Ux4 ) and was playing excellent until he injured his finger and went from shooting 47% through most of the series to shooting only 33% in the final 15 quarters. Pippen led the 2000 Blazers in playoff rebounding, steals, assists, minutes, was only 3 ppg behind the leading scorer and was the team's defensive anchor and floor/locker room leader. With the Blazers down 1-3, Pippen turned in arguably his best performance in a non-Bull uniform to stave off elimination.

Jordan also watched as his teams had losing records in a whopping 1/3 of his seasons! Has any top 50 of all-time player had that many losing seasons? :oldlol: Jordan also watched himself choke and his team blow a 9 point lead with 2 minutes left to get eliminated at home once, including shooting an airball with the Bulls down 2 with less than 30 seconds left and then a few seconds later committing a costly reach-in foul. This was not 34 year old Jordan, either! (Pippen was also part of tha collapse but I am using MJ fans' logic regarding a few minutes of one game of the 2000 WCF toward their hero)

Pippen had 16 straight winning seasons. When he left Chicago, Houston, and Portland none of those teams even made the playoffs the next year. When he got hurt even in 2002 and 2003, Portland went from a top 4 and top 5 team in winning percentage to 18th and 19th place respectively--and this was the impact of old Pip who was about versatility, defense and most importantly leadership, not putting up superstar numbers. Imagine prime Pippen on those teams! :bowdown: Pippen led a team to within 2 minutes of a ring without Jordan; we all know Jordan's record without Pippen. :roll:

As to the OP, Kareem is a clear answer. I can't see Russell or Wilt doing it. Shaq perhaps could as well. Pippen always said he would have loved to play with a dominant center like Shaq.


If Michael didn't make his teammates better, then please explain why Scottie's field goal percentages against the Knicks in 1994 were inferior from the 1993 ECF.

Why kind of logic is that? Why use a 7 game sample to override a 72 game sample? Why was everyone on the Bulls field goal percentage down in 98'--by large margins--during the half a season Pippen was out?

In 1997-98 Scottie played only 9 games before the all-star break. Let's look at the stats of the Bulls' top five scorers other than Pippen before and after the all-star break.

Toni Kukoc: 12.6 ppg on 45% shooting before the ASG, 14.4 on 46.4% after the ASG

Luc Longley: 11.1 ppg on 44.4% before the ASG, 12.8 ppg on 50% after the ASG

Ron Harper: 9.6 on 42.9% before the ASG, 8.8 on 46% after the ASG

Steve Kerr: 7.1 on 41.1% before the ASG, 8.0 on 50.7% after the ASG

And...dare I do it????

Michael Jordan: 28.9 on 45.0% before the ASG, 28.5 on 48.9% after the ASG

Gee, maybe this was all just a string of coincidences? Let's try one more, Bill Wennington. 3.3 ppg on 41.4% before the ASG, 3.7 on 45.9% after the ASG.

Regarding the issue of making teammates better, I believe MJ did-- but in practice. On the court his ball hogging hindered the triangle offense. It is no coincidence Krause said the 94' team was the Bulls team that executed the triangle most closely to perfection.

[PHILA]

As to the OP, Kareem is a clear answer. I can't see Russell or Wilt doing it. Shaq perhaps could as well. Pippen always said he would have loved to play with a dominant center like Shaq.

Why not?

[Desperado]

Yeah, the Bulls went on a 30-5 tear, including something like a 14-2 streak, when Pippen came back from his injury and were tied for the best record in the East by the all-star break. Obviously this was because no one in the league was smart enough to look at the standings and see where the Bulls were. :oldlol: The only thing that cost them the #1 seed was injuries.



:oldlol: He averaged something like 20/10/7/3 in that series on good efficiency while dominating defensively (i.e. he shut down Horace Grant, who was torching Kukoc to the point of shooting 70% for most of the series). Pippen got noticeably tired at the end of games because he was literally asked to do everything for the team (run the offense, anchor the defense, grab 10 boards, score 20 points, be a team leader, etc.) yet you are complaining that Jordan was the one who needed to have his load lightened? Jordan fans. :roll:



Why didn't you mention his 98' finals back injury that ended his prime overnight?

Why couldn't Jordan without Pippen do any better than Pippen without Jordan in Chicago? Pippen without Jordan in 94' led the Bulls to wins 71% of the time; Jordan without Pippen won 69% of the time for half a season without Pippen in 98'. Yeah, MJ was 34 in 98' but he was still the MVP of the league and surely MJ fans think 98' Jordan>94' Pippen!



More of the same. Pippen led that team and was playing excellent until he injured his finger and went from shooting 47% through most of the series to shooting only 33% in the final 15 quarters. Pippen led the 2000 Blazers in playoff rebounding, steals, assists, minutes, was only 3 ppg behind the leading scorer and was the team's defensive anchor and floor/locker room leader. With the Blazers down 1-3, Pippen turned in arguably his best performance in a non-Bull uniform to stave off elimination.

Jordan also watched as his teams had losing records in a whopping 1/3 of his seasons! Has any top 50 of all-time player had that many losing seasons? :oldlol: Jordan also watched himself choke and his team blow a 9 point lead with 2 minutes left to get eliminated at home once, including shooting an airball with the Bulls down 2 with less than 30 seconds left and then a few seconds later committing a costly reach-in foul. This was not 34 year old Jordan, either! (Pippen was also part of tha collapse but I am using MJ fans' logic recording the 2000 WCF toward their hero)

Pippen had 16 straight winning seasons. When he left Chicago, Houston, and Portland none of those teams even made the playoffs the next year. When he got hurt even in 2002 and 2003, Portland went from a top 4 and top 5 team in winning percentage to 18th and 19th place respectively--and this was the impact of old Pip who was about versatility, defense and most importantly leadership, not putting up superstar numbers. Imagine prime Pippen on those teams! :bowdown: Pippen led a team to within 2 minutes of a ring without Jordan; we all know Jordan's record without Pippen. :roll:

As to the OP, Kareem is a clear answer. I can't see Russell or Wilt doing it. Shaq perhaps could as well. Pippen always said he would have loved to play with a dominant center like Shaq.



Why kind of logic is that? Why use a 7 game sample to override a 72 game sample? Why was everyone on the Bulls field goal percentage down in 98'--by large margins--during the half a season Pippen was out?

In 1997-98 Scottie played only 9 games before the all-star break. Let's look at the stats of the Bulls' top five scorers other than Pippen before and after the all-star break.

Toni Kukoc: 12.6 ppg on 45% shooting before the ASG, 14.4 on 46.4% after the ASG

Luc Longley: 11.1 ppg on 44.4% before the ASG, 12.8 ppg on 50% after the ASG

Ron Harper: 9.6 on 42.9% before the ASG, 8.8 on 46% after the ASG

Steve Kerr: 7.1 on 41.1% before the ASG, 8.0 on 50.7% after the ASG

And...dare I do it????

Michael Jordan: 28.9 on 45.0% before the ASG, 28.5 on 48.9% after the ASG

Gee, maybe this was all just a string of coincidences? Let's try one more, Bill Wennington. 3.3 ppg on 41.4% before the ASG, 3.7 on 45.9% after the ASG.

Regarding the issue of making teammates better, I believe MJ did-- but in practice. On the court his ball hogging hindered the triangle offense. It is no coincidence Krause said the 94' team was the Bulls team that executed the triangle most closely to perfection.


:applause:


Roundball just http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-OVc-bONsQ on these clowns...

And :oldlol: @ Jordan Jockers saying he was ''rusty'' in '95.

Back then all we heard when Jordan came back was the the Bulls were an automatic lock to win the championship with Jordan back. We didn't hear any of this ''rusty'' crap when he had the double nickle in Madison Square or when he had 48/9/8 against the Hornets in the first round. However as soon as he had the choke job against Nick Anderson and the Bulls lost to Orlando it was because Jordan was ''rusty''.

According to the Jockers the reason for the Bulls successes the next year had nothing to do with Rodman it was because Jordan was no longer rusty and spent the '95 off season on the treadmill and eating his Wheaties.

[Alhazred]

Why couldn't Jordan without Pippen do any better than Pippen without Jordan? Pippen without Jordan in 94' led the Bulls to wins 71% of the time; Jordan without Pippen won 69% of the time for half a season without Pippen in 98'.

Probably because they had two completely different casts at completely different ages. BJ, Horace and Scottie were all in their late 20s and All-Stars that year, whereas MJ was 35 in 1998 while Rodman and Harper were about the same age.


Why kind of logic is that? Why use a 7 game sample to override a 72 game sample? Why was everyone on the Bulls field goal percentage down in 98'--by large margins--during the half a season Pippen was out?

I take it you didn't read those links Desperado posted such as this one.

http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/supportingcast.htm


One theory was that Jordan drew so much defensive attention that his teammates got to take wide open shots and benefited from Jordan. It sounds good on paper, but wasn't true in reality.

If Jordan drawing the defense's attention didn't help, then why did Pippen's percentages fall in the playoffs compared to the previous year? This isn't a knock on Scottie's own abilities to help the team, he was an invaluable asset, but so was Jordan, especially in the playoffs.


In 1997-98 Scottie played only 9 games before the all-star break. Let's look at the stats of the Bulls' top five scorers other than Pippen before and after the all-star break.

Toni Kukoc: 12.6 ppg on 45% shooting before the ASG, 14.4 on 46.4% after the ASG

Luc Longley: 11.1 ppg on 44.4% before the ASG, 12.8 ppg on 50% after the ASG

Ron Harper: 9.6 on 42.9% before the ASG, 8.8 on 46% after the ASG

Steve Kerr: 7.1 on 41.1% before the ASG, 8.0 on 50.7% after the ASG

And...dare I do it????

Michael Jordan: 28.9 on 45.0% before the ASG, 28.5 on 48.9% after the ASG

Gee, maybe this was all just a string of coincidences? Let's try one more, Bill Wennington. 3.3 ppg on 41.4% before the ASG, 3.7 on 45.9% after the ASG.

Good for Scottie, but I never questioned his impact, only Desperado's claim that Jordan barely had any himself.


Regarding the issue of making teammates better, I believe MJ did-- but in practice. On the court his ball hogging hindered the triangle offense. It is no coincidence Krause said the 94' team was the Bulls team that executed the triangle most closely to perfection.

They were a far better offensive team with Jordan than without him, imo. Also, it can't be ignored that the Bulls won championships consistently when MJ was "hindering" the Triangle as you said.

Also, good to see you back. I've seen too many posters trying to be like you and failing miserably at it.

[KingBeasley08]

MJ>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>everyone else

leave it at that.

[Roundball_Rock]

Why not?

They would both win multiple rings with that team but it is hard to see Russell winning 6+ with. With Russell that team would not be great offensively. On second thought, though, Wilt and maybe Hakeem could have done it. Kareem would be a sure thing and would probably win more rings than Jordan because he would not retire 2 days before training camp and force the Bulls to replace him with a D-League level scrub and cost the team a ring. Bird does not fit in as well as any other top 10 legend because of redundancies between him and Pippen. Magic? He is not really an upgrade over Jordan offensively and he is a downgrade defensively so I don't see 6+ with him.


According to the Jockers the reason for the Bulls successes the next year had nothing to do with Rodman it was because Jordan was no longer rusty and spent the '95 off season on the treadmill and eating his Wheaties.

:oldlol: His statistical production in the 95' playoffs was actually better than his production in the 96', 97', and 98' playoffs! Yes, it is true he got tired at the end of games but so did 29 year old Pippen. The reason is they had no help defensively or on the glass. Pippen had to grab 10 boards a game against the Magic. Their "power forward" averaged 5 boards a game (Kukoc) and they never had a decent center.


Probably because they had two completely different casts at completely different ages. BJ, Horace and Scottie were all in their late 20s and All-Stars that year, whereas MJ was 35 in 1998 while Rodman and Harper were about the same age.

BJ was voted in as an all-star putting up something like 14/4/3. :oldlol: The 98' team was arguably deeper.

98' Jordan>94' Pippen. Right????????
Grant<Rodman. This is debatable.
Armstrong<Kukoc
Whoever the Bulls fourth best player was in 94' (Cartwright? Kerr?)<Harper
Kerr=Kerr

The central question remains...


I take it you didn't read those links Desperado posted such as this one.

I read it before and the fact is a 72 game sample>>>>a 7 game sample. 7 game samples are meaningless. Let's do what you did for another team the Bulls faced in both 93' and 94': Cleveland. Pippen's stats in 93' versus the Cavs versus his 94' stats against them:

93': 18/6/5/3 on 48%
94': 25/10/4/3 on 49%


If Jordan drawing the defense's attention didn't help

I agree that it did, so did Pippen drawing attention. However, when people speak of "making teammates better" they are talking about a special ability, not the par for the course impact any great scorer has.


he was an invaluable asset, but so was Jordan, especially in the playoffs.

Yes. :bowdown:


They were a far better offensive team with Jordan than without him, imo. Also, it can't be ignored that the Bulls won championships consistently when MJ was "hindering" the Triangle as you said.

I agree. They were like the Lakers without Kobe: better at executing the offense due to there not being a ballhog present but inferior offensively overall because it is impossible to replace that kind of firepower simply by improved execution.

I was mainly calling out Soundwave's myths, especially the one about 95', a year Pippen finished #3 in all-NBA voting and #1 in all-Defensive voting and put up something like 20/10/7/3 in the ECSF while running the offense and dominating defensively and being a team leader--it was Pippen who Bulls turned to when they need encouragement or inspiration.


Also, good to see you back

:cheers:

[Premeditated]

if Scottie Pippen could lead to Bulls to 55+ wins in the season and were only one call away from making it to the ECFs, then i'm pretty sure other perimeters all stars (Richmond,Clyde,K Johnson, Starks)would have won at least 6-7 rings. Jordan was put in the right situation compared to his peers in the 90s. There was no other stacked teams as the Bulls.

i mean this from the buttom of my heart when i say you could replace Carmelo and Billups with Jordan and Pippen on the Bulls, they would've won the same amount of rings. The 2010 NBA 1st Team would have done what Jordan did in the late 80s to mid 90s as well.
Seriously what kind of one on one defense was MJ getting. don't get wrapped up in the hype.

[Desperado]

a year Pippen finished #3 in all-NBA voting and #1 in all-Defensive voting and put up something like 20/10/7/3 in the ECSF while running the offense and dominating defensively and being a team leader--it was Pippen who Bulls turned to when they need encouragement or inspiration.


Also became the 2nd player in NBA history to lead his team in every statistical category.

:bowdown:

[beermonsteroo]

Replace Jordan with Kobe and those Bulls don't win one ring.

I do think though that even without Jordan a Pippen led Bulls would have gotten one ring somewhere in 91-96

[Aye Dee]

if Scottie Pippen could lead to Bulls to 55+ wins in the season and were only one call away from making it to the ECFs, then i'm pretty sure other perimeters all stars (Richmond,Clyde,K Johnson, Starks)would have won at least 6-7 rings. Jordan was put in the right situation compared to his peers in the 90s. There was no other stacked teams as the Bulls.

i mean this from the buttom of my heart when i say you could replace Carmelo and Billups with Jordan and Pippen on the Bulls, they would've won the same amount of rings. The 2010 NBA 1st Team would have done what Jordan did in the late 80s to mid 90s as well.
Seriously what kind of one on one defense was MJ getting. don't get wrapped up in the hype.



:facepalm

[jlauber]

Regarding Kareem, Wilt, and Russell...

Yes, I would like to believe that Wilt would make any team better. And, while he came within an eye-lash of winning 5-7 more rings, it must be noted that he also played on teams that should have won, and didn't. Granted, there were legitimate excuses for thosed failures, but in any case, he certainly didn't win every year.

And, Kareem was even more of a disappointment. Take Magic away from Kareem's career, and you have ONE title, in a year in which the league had no competition, and the only team that could possibly have beaten them, was decimated with injuries. Kareem played on several heavily-favored teams that not only did not win, they significantly under-performed. Not only that, but the decade of the 70's had the weakest champions in NBA history. Kareem played on talented rosters that couldn't even get past the first round, in a year in which the champion went 44-38.

Now, how about Russell? True, he played on talented teams. BUT, as we have already discovered with both Wilt and Kareem...that is often not enough. Russell's teams won 27 of 29 post-season series. And, in one of those that lost, he was injured. Furthermore, he took a 4th place, 48-34 team, and led that team to a title in his very last season. IMHO, he would do whatever it took to lead those Bulls' team's to titles.

[Alhazred]

i mean this from the buttom of my heart when i say you could replace Carmelo and Billups with Jordan and Pippen on the Bulls, they would've won the same amount of rings. The 2010 NBA 1st Team would have done what Jordan did in the late 80s to mid 90s as well.
Seriously what kind of one on one defense was MJ getting. don't get wrapped up in the hype.

:facepalm

These trolls are getting worse by the day.

[guy]

:applause:


Roundball just http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-OVc-bONsQ on these clowns...

And :oldlol: @ Jordan Jockers saying he was ''rusty'' in '95.

Back then all we heard when Jordan came back was the the Bulls were an automatic lock to win the championship with Jordan back. We didn't hear any of this ''rusty'' crap when he had the double nickle in Madison Square or when he had 48/9/8 against the Hornets in the first round. However as soon as he had the choke job against Nick Anderson and the Bulls lost to Orlando it was because Jordan was ''rusty''.

According to the Jockers the reason for the Bulls successes the next year had nothing to do with Rodman it was because Jordan was no longer rusty and spent the '95 off season on the treadmill and eating his Wheaties.

What? No one back then was saying the Bulls were an automatic lock to the championship. The Magic and Knicks were still bigger favorites to come out of the East while the Bulls had huge questions marks around them mainly cause of Jordan but were still considered to have a pretty good chance to come out of the East mainly cause of Jordan again.

I'm going to assume that anyone thats using stats as a reason for Jordan not being rusty and tired clearly was either not alive or didn't have fully developed eyes and a memory back then. It was clear as day watching him in certain games that he didn't have the stamina that he had before because he wasn't in basketball shape. If you weren't watching back then, just watch the 4th quarter of game 6 vs. the Magic on youtube. Its clear that he didn't have the same energy. No one is saying he was dying for breath every game, but it clearly had an effect especially in that game.

[Alhazred]

They would both win multiple rings with that team but it is hard to see Russell winning 6+ with. With Russell that team would not be great offensively. On second thought, though, Wilt and maybe Hakeem could have done it. Kareem would be a sure thing and would probably win more rings than Jordan because he would not retire 2 days before training camp and force the Bulls to replace him with a D-League level scrub and cost the team a ring.

The Bulls had a legit shot at attaining Derek Harper mid-season. Jerry Krause would be the one to blame for them not having a legit SG, not MJ.

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/01/08/sports/pro-basketball-knicks-are-pining-for-help-from-harper.html


The Chicago Bulls were also in the hunt for Harper, and several Bulls players were upset when the trade was announced. "If people expect the Bulls to contend, we have to have something to go to war with," said SCOTTIE PIPPEN, the Bulls' All-Star forward, in an interview with The Chicago Tribune. "We have a slot that needs to be filled. We need our general manager to bring someone in. Whatever it takes. We have guys with trade value, and if we're going to better, if we're going to contend, we have to do something." Coach PHIL JACKSON of the Bulls echoed Pippen's sentiments in The Tribune. "We've known ever since Day 1 that there's an ingredient missing that we're not going to be able to cover up," Jackson said.

Even Pippen acknowledged that it was the front office's fault.


BJ was voted in as an all-star putting up something like 14/4/3. :oldlol: The 98' team was arguably deeper.

98' Jordan>94' Pippen. Right????????
Grant<Rodman. This is debatable.
Armstrong<Kukoc
Whoever the Bulls fourth best player was in 94' (Cartwright? Kerr?)<Harper
Kerr=Kerr

98 Jordan is slightly better than 94 Pippen, but not by a wide margin. He was 35, after all. I'd also take 94 Grant over 36 year old Rodman. Horace was in his prime and wasn't an offensive liability like Dennis was. The rest of the teams are pretty much a wash. Also, you forgot to mention Kukoc on the 94 squad.


I read it before and the fact is a 72 game sample>>>>a 7 game sample. 7 game samples are meaningless. Let's do what you did for another team the Bulls faced in both 93' and 94': Cleveland. Pippen's stats in 93' versus the Cavs versus his 94' stats against them:

93': 18/6/5/3 on 48%
94': 25/10/4/3 on 49%

:facepalm. Poor example. The Cavs were devastated by injuries that year and were missing Larry Nance and Brad Daugherty in the playoffs, plus Craig Ehlo signed with Atlanta as a fee agent.

Regular season numbers are nice, but I think it's quite clear that had MJ been on the Bulls in 94 they would have beaten the Knicks. Also look at how efficient Pippen was compared to the previous season against the same team. 7 games may seem meaningless, but this is a playoff series we're talking about. This is also not a condemnation of Pippen's own abilities, but to show that although Jordan's influence may have seemed overrated based on their regular season record, they missed him dearly in the playoffs.


I agree that it did, so did Pippen drawing attention. However, when people speak of "making teammates better" they are talking about a special ability, not the par for the course impact any great scorer has.

Except we're not talking about just any great scorer. Teammates like Pippen and Harper praised him for working out with them and helping them improve their games. For example, are you familiar with the "Breakfast Club"? I remember someone posted it here a few months back, think it might have been Guy.


What is The Breakfast Club?

FW: Most guys dreaded their two-hour practice from 11 to 1. But a small group of guys, who really wanted to push themselves, formed this Breakfast Club thing. They'd work out a few times a week before practice. Then, when they were done working out, some time between 9 and 9:15, Michael's chef cooked them breakfast. That's how it really became the Breakfast Club. Those guys sat down to eat breakfast together, and then they'd go the Berto Center for practice.

Where did The Breakfast Club meet?

FW: Michael had a full gym in his basement. It just made sense to work out there, because the team practiced at the Berto Center, which is about 15 minutes from Michael's house. When did they FW: Three to four days a week, Tim actually drove from downtown Chicago to Michael's house. They'd put in a good, hard hour of lifting, starting between 7:30 and 8:00 a.m. They didn't do heavy lifting, but instead a lot of agility work, quick reps, light weights-just stuff to build strength they could carry throughout the year.

Who participated?

FW: One of the guys was Ron Harper; he had so much respect for Michael. Harper totally embraced Michael, and Michael embraced him. Ron really started falling into Michael's work ethic, which is what I think helped him sustain his career so long. He was there literally every morning with Michael in the Breakfast Club.

Scottie Pippen came quite a bit-not every day, but a lot. The other kind of wild card guy was Randy Brown, a defensive stopper who was a backup point guard. He was the guy who'd enter the game in the third or fourth quarter and really shut down the opposing team's point guard. Charles Oakley was the last guy. He wasn't on the Bulls at the time, but he and Michael had been really close since Michael's rookie year. He's a workout fanatic. When he was in town, he'd come work out with Michael and really push those guys.


I agree. They were like the Lakers without Kobe: better at executing the offense due to there not being a ballhog present but inferior offensively overall because it is impossible to replace that kind of firepower simply by improved execution.

I kind of agree, although I don't think I would label Kobe and Jordan ballhogs during their championship seasons as the number 1 option. They were ball dominant, but they also took over when they needed to, like Kobe in Game 5 of the Finals against Boston or Jordan scoring 45 against Utah in Game 6 when Pippen had to leave the game early due to injuries.


I was mainly calling out Soundwave's myths, especially the one about 95', a year Pippen finished #3 in all-NBA voting and #1 in all-Defensive voting and put up something like 20/10/7/3 in the ECSF while running the offense and dominating defensively and being a team leader--it was Pippen who Bulls turned to when they need encouragement or inspiration.

Although Soundwave was offbase(The Bulls weren't winning squat without a decent bigman, not the fault of either Jordan or Pippen), I have to ask when did Pippen shut down Grant? Horace shot at least 50% in every game except game 6 and lit up the Bulls for the majority of the series. Maybe I should re-watch it.