Who Were Jordan's Greatest Rivals?

[Ruh-Roh]

I don't want to hijack G.O.A.T.'s Russell thread, but an interesting point was raised about some of the greatest athletes having to test themselves against formidable rivals.

Here's his statement.



And Russell was facing players like Pettit, Wilt, Robertson, West and Baylor year-in-and year-out, who were Top 10 All Time Players at that time and still top 10-25 all-time now. Where are the top 10-25 GOAT players who were Jordan's consistent rivals every year to test him and made him work for a title? Who was Jordan's one nemesis he had to go through to win titles? Russell had Wilt, Magic and Bird had each other, in boxing Ali had Frazier... who was that guy for Jordan?

[He's the ONLY GOAT candidate who doesn't have one. (And don't give any, "Well, that just shows how dominant he was" crap. Every great has a rival to test himself against.)]

Now, this raises two questions.


1: Do you believe that an athlete must validate himself through beating an elite rival to achieve G.O.A.T. recognition, or at least be in the discussion?

2: Who did Jordan compete against (and beat) that fits that bill?

[Ruh-Roh]

The rivalry started in the 1988 Eastern Conference Semifinals.

The aggressive Bad Boy Pistons were a team on the rise. Michael Jordan was the league MVP and Defensive Player of the Year and the ultimate challenge for Detroit's rugged, top-notch defense. In a nationally televised game at the Silverdome on Easter Sunday, Jordan torched the Pistons for 59 points in a 112-110 Bulls triumph (He also scored 61 in Detroit the previous season). This infuriated Pistons coach Chuck Daly, who vowed never to permit Jordan to explode on the Pistons again.

Despite Jordan's individual talents the Bulls lacked the talent and physical and mental toughness to beat the Pistons who ravaged the Bulls in only five games. The Pistons would go on to beat the Boston Celtics and win their first conference title since they moved from Fort Wayne.

In 1989, the Pistons were stronger than ever, posting the league's best record of 63-19.

The sixth seeded Bulls (47-35) had surprising success in the playoffs by beating the favored Cleveland Cavaliers (57-25 won-loss record) 3-2 with "The Shot." Next, the Bulls upset the Atlantic Division Champs, the New York Knicks, coached by Rick Pitino, 4-2.

The Bulls then squared off to meet the team that was to become their greatest rival, the Detroit Pistons, in the Eastern Conference Finals. The Bulls miraculous success seemed to continue as they took an early 2-1 lead over the Pistons. But the Pistons clamped down and employed the supposed "Jordan Rules" (which consisted of solely targeting Jordan) which worked so well for them the year prior.

While the Pistons would remain mum about the so-called "Jordan Rules" when asked by the media, many of the Pistons today say that the "Jordan Rules" were made up and only another psychological ploy they used to try and throw the Bulls off their game. According to Pistons forward Rick Mahorn,


We were just throwing stuff out there for (the media). It was just a joke. Chuck (Daly, Pistons coach) throws it out there that we had some secret plan to stop Jordan, and everybody just jumped on it. Everybody was writing stories about this strategy. When we kept reading about it, Isiah told us that we had gotten in their heads, and that's how we had them beat.

The Pistons took a stand and won three straight and would go on to win their first NBA title in the next round.

For the following 1989-90 season under new coach Phil Jackson, the Bulls sought to subvert the "Jordan Rules" by focusing on the triangle offense or triple post offense refined by assistant coach Tex Winter. By sharing responsibility rather than shouldering it, Jordan led the Bulls to the second best record in the East at 55-27...behind the ever-tough defending champion Pistons who finished 59-23.

In a pre-destined Eastern Conference Finals rematch, the Bulls pushed the Pistons like never before by forcing the series to seven games. But the Pistons showed their dominance by winning a brutal Game Seven at home by a score of 93-74. It was in this pivotal Game Seven that Scottie Pippen would suffer a migraine headache, leading many to speculate that with a healthy Pippen the Bulls may have been ready to supplant the Pistons as the best team in the East.

The Pistons would go on to win their second consecutive NBA title the following round against the Portland Trail Blazers.

The Bulls break through

These growing pains resulted in a stronger than ever Bulls the following season in 1990-91. With a greater concentration on teamwork, the Bulls posted the best record in the Eastern Conference with a 61-21 win-loss record and Jordan regained the MVP award after years of being accused of being a selfish player.

At the same time the Piston's armor was starting to crack by old age and injury. After their victory of the Atlantic Division champ Boston Celtics 4-2 in the Conference semifinals, it was now the Pistons with something to prove as they met a title poised Chicago.

Still, some doubted the Bulls and maintained that the Pistons psychological edge and bench strength would loom over the series. But three years of aches and bruises allotted the Bulls a drive that not only inspired the greatness necessary to defeat the Pistons, but the greatness necessary to conquer a decade.

Proving their growth, the Bulls swept the Pistons 4-0 and ended the rivalry on a triumphant note.

Isiah Thomas, Bill Laimbeer and Mark Aguirre of the Pistons, in their last show of defiance, walked off the court with :04 left on the clock so as not to congratulate the new Eastern Conference Champions. In the next round the Bulls defeated Magic Johnson and the Lakers to capture their first NBA crown.

^^blatantly plagiarized from wiki

[Go Getter]

His best rivals were the Detroit Pistons.

In Jordan's case he was actually going up against whole teams scheming to stop him....few players got the attention and treatment of a Jordan.

[triangleoffense]

Barkley
Drexler
Reggie
Stockton
Malone
Payton
Kobe
Pistons
Cavs
Bird/Magic

He prevented 5. players on that list and 2 teams from getting championships, in their prime. All those players are 1st ballot hof'ers.

[Toizumi]

Barkley
Drexler
Reggie
Stockton
Malone
Payton
Kobe
Pistons
Cavs
Bird/Magic
Hakeem
Ewing and his Knicks
Shaq and the Magic

He prevented 5. players on that list and 2 teams from getting championships, in their prime. All those players are 1st ballot hof'ers.

added some more

[Raziball]

Barkley
Drexler
Reggie
Stockton
Malone
Payton
Kobe
Pistons
Cavs
Bird/Magic

He prevented 5. players on that list and 2 teams from getting championships, in their prime. All those players are 1st ballot hof'ers.

I wouldnt call bird/magic his rivals, because they were out of their prime (individual-team) years and also i dont know why Kobe is on the list because he was not on the level he has been on for the last ten years, when MJ was still on top. And i dont think that Reggie is a rival enough for players in the GOAT discussion. I would also like to add Ewing and his Knicks to the rival list.

[Sarcastic]

Barkley
Drexler
Reggie
Stockton
Malone
Payton
Kobe
Pistons
Cavs
Bird/Magic

He prevented 5. players on that list and 2 teams from getting championships, in their prime. All those players are 1st ballot hof'ers.

No respect for the 90s Knicks, huh?

[ThaRegul8r]

Now, first of all, let's establish an objective standard. I have no agenda here other than the unceasing search for truth, wherever it might lead.

To be fair, I will use the most recent lists that have been compiled:

Elliot Kalb (2004) Who's Better, Who's Best in Basketball?

1. Shaq
2. Wilt
3. Jordan
4. Russell
5. Kareem
6. Bird
7. Magic
8. Oscar
9. Duncan
10. Cousy
11. Pettit
12. West
13. Baylor
14. Moses Malone
15. Dr. J
16. Hakeem
17. Karl Malone
18. Kobe
19. Mikan
20. Robinson
21. Barkley
22. Barry
23. Dolph Schayes
24. Havlicek
25. Isiah

Simmons (2009) The Book of Basketball

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7. Duncan
8. West
9. Oscar
10. Hakeem
11. Shaq
12. Moses Malone
13. Havlicek
14. Baylor
15. Kobe
16. Dr. J
17. Pettit
18. Karl Malone
19. Barkley
20. LeBron
21. Cousy
22. Garnett
23. Isiah
24. Pippen
25. Stockton

SLAM (http://www.slamonline.com/online/the-magazine/features/2009/06/the-new-top-50/) (2009)

1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Russell
4. Shaq
5. Oscar
6. Magic
7. Kareem
8. Duncan
9. Bird
10. West
11. Baylor
12. Kobe
13. Hakeem
14. Pettit
15. Dr. J
16. Moses Malone
17. Havlicek
18. Karl Malone
19. Isiah
20. Barkley
21. Rick Barry
22. Stockton
23. Elvin Hayes
24. Cousy
25. David Robinson

These are the most recent GOAT player lists that have been compiled, and these will be referred to in order to determine the consensus.

(cont.)

[triangleoffense]

No respect for the 90s Knicks, huh?

Sorry those were just off the topof my head. I put Kobe because that is his heir apparent and Bird/Magic to remind people that Jordan played in the 80s too, the early 80s no less.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Jordan measured himself against Bird and Magic. After his first 3peat he stated in the post game interview that it felt great because he just did something Magic and Larry never did. I know he also hated Isiah Thomas because Isiah apparently orchestrated the freeze out on Jordan in the '85 all-star game and of course, Isiah was the best player on the Pistons team that knocked the Bulls out of the playoffs 3 consecutive years which leads me to Dumars who with the help of a great team defense and a physical style, slowed Jordan down at times.

I think Drexler to some extent in those '92 finals, I think he wanted to seperate himself and it seemed like he went on a mission and he embarrassed Clyde. His six 3 first half vs Portland came after a reporter said Clyde was a better 3 point shooter than Jordan.

And of course, anyone who was called the next Jordan. Remember the Stackhouse game?

[FormerSunsFan]

Jordan didn't have any rivals. Once Bird & Magic passed him the torch, he never relinquished it. He just let Hakeem borrow it for a while.

And yes, I'm am overstating the point a bit...so what

[ThaRegul8r]

(cont.)

Now, here were Russell's major rivals to NBA Titles. I'm only listing his major rivals who led the teams he had to go through multiple times in order to win NBA championships:

Bob Pettit (1957, 1958, 1960, 1961)
Wilt Chamberlain: (1960, 1962, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967, 1968)
Oscar Robertson: (1963, 1964, 1966)
Elgin Baylor: (1959)
Jerry West: (1965)
West and Baylor: (1962, 1963, 1966, 1968)
West, Wilt and Baylor: (1969)

Wilt - 8 times
Baylor - 6 times
West - 6 times
Pettit - 4 times
Oscar - 3 times

Now. Pettit is ranked #11 by Kalb, #17 by Simmons, and #14 by SLAM.
Wilt is ranked #2 by Kalb, #6 by Simmons, and #2 by SLAM.
Oscar is ranked #8 by Kalb, #9 by Simmons, and #5 by SLAM.
Baylor is ranked #13 by Kalb, #14 by Simmons, and #11 by SLAM.
West is ranked #12 by Kalb, #8 by Simmons, and #10 by SLAM.

So, according to Kalb, Russell had to go through a Top 10 GOAT player 11 times in the 13 years he competed for NBA Titles. According to Kalb, he had to go through a Top 15 GOAT Player 16 times in the 13 years he competed for NBA Titles.

According to Simmons, Russell had to go through a Top 10 GOAT player 17 times. According to Simmons, Russell had to go through a Top 15 GOAT player 10 times.

According to SLAM, Russell had to go through a Top 10 GOAT player 17 times. According to SLAM, Russell had to go through a Top 15 GOAT player 10 times.

So, to summarize:

Kalb: 11x facing a Top 10 GOAT player, 16x facing a Top 15 GOAT player.
Simmons: 17x facing a Top 10 GOAT player, 10x facing a Top 15 GOAT player
SLAM: 17x facing a Top 10 GOAT player, 10x facing a Top 15 GOAT player

(cont.)

[Collie]

Those who say that Jordan did not beat any greats is plain wrong. It's a dilemma because he prevented these guys from going up higher in the GOAT list. How much higher would Karl Malone be if he had 2 championships?

How about Barkley? Drexler as the number one guy in his team? What if Ewing won 3 championships?

[FormerSunsFan]

What if Ewing won 3 championships?

in what universe?

[me_]

(cont.)

Now, here were Russell's major rivals to NBA Titles. I'm only listing his major rivals who led the teams he had to go through multiple times in order to win NBA championships:

Bob Pettit (1957, 1958, 1960, 1961)
Wilt Chamberlain: (1960, 1962, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967, 1968)
Oscar Robertson: (1963, 1964, 1966)
Elgin Baylor: (1959)
Jerry West: (1965)
West and Baylor: (1962, 1963, 1966, 1968)
West, Wilt and Baylor: (1969)

Wilt - 8 times
Baylor - 6 times
West - 6 times
Pettit - 4 times
Oscar - 3 times

Now. Pettit is ranked #11 by Kalb, #17 by Simmons, and #14 by SLAM.
Wilt is ranked #2 by Kalb, #6 by Simmons, and #2 by SLAM.
Oscar is ranked #8 by Kalb, #9 by Simmons, and #5 by SLAM.
Baylor is ranked #13 by Kalb, #14 by Simmons, and #11 by SLAM.
West is ranked #12 by Kalb, #8 by Simmons, and #10 by SLAM.

So, according to Kalb, Russell had to go through a Top 10 GOAT player 11 times in the 13 years he competed for NBA Titles. According to Kalb, he had to go through a Top 15 GOAT Player 16 times in the 13 years he competed for NBA Titles.

According to Simmons, Russell had to go through a Top 10 GOAT player 17 times. According to Simmons, Russell had to go through a Top 15 GOAT player 10 times.

According to SLAM, Russell had to go through a Top 10 GOAT player 17 times. According to SLAM, Russell had to go through a Top 15 GOAT player 10 times.

So, to summarize:

Kalb: 11x facing a Top 10 GOAT player, 16x facing a Top 15 GOAT player.
Simmons: 17x facing a Top 10 GOAT player, 10x facing a Top 15 GOAT player
SLAM: 17x facing a Top 10 GOAT player, 10x facing a Top 15 GOAT player

(cont.)

eagerly waiting :cheers:

[sekachu]

Piston, they were just destroyed MJ, however, without this rival, MJ wouldn't turn out to be what he is now

90 knick, One of the best defensive team of all time

[Ruh-Roh]

eagerly waiting :cheers:

same, but I really should sleep now :lol

[DuMa]

Michael beat Magic in 91. thats for starters. Magic himself admitted that the torch wasnt passed down to Mike in that series. Mike just plain took it from Magic.

[ThaRegul8r]

Now, let's take a look at Jordan. As we all know, Jordan won his first NBA title in 1991, and his last NBA title in 1998. I will not penalize him for the years he didn't win. What I'm interested in is who his competition was when he started winning. Since Russell starting winning from Year One, his entire career was looked at. Since Jordan didn't start winning until his seventh year, that's when we'll begin our analysis.

One poster said:


Barkley
Drexler
Reggie
Stockton
Malone
Payton
Kobe
Pistons
Cavs
Bird/Magic

He prevented 5. players on that list and 2 teams from getting championships, in their prime. All those players are 1st ballot hof'ers.

Here, we can immediately spot that Jordan did not face Bird the years he won NBA titles. The question I asked was who were Jordan's rivals he had to beat to win titles. Jordan did not start winning titles until 1991. And Kobe Bryant didn't even play in the NBA until 1996-97, which was the next-to-last of Jordan's titles, and the Lakers did not make the Finals against the Bulls. Here is an example of someone not presenting the FACTS of what actually happened during Jordan's title years, and is trying to make Jordan's r

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

John Starks and Knick Defense say hi.

[ThaRegul8r]

I need to get some sleep now, but later today, if I have the time, I'll perform the same analysis with Magic and Bird.

[symbol33]

Those who say that Jordan did not beat any greats is plain wrong. It's a dilemma because he prevented these guys from going up higher in the GOAT list. How much higher would Karl Malone be if he had 2 championships?

How about Barkley? Drexler as the number one guy in his team? What if Ewing won 3 championships?

You said that it was Jordan to prevented players such as Malone, Barkley, Drexler to rise higher in the list, in this assume, it was also Russile to prevent Oscar, Pettit to going up higher in the list too. But although they was in the same era will Russell, they are listed still higher than Malone, Barkley, Drexler.

[PurpleChuck]

Jordan's greatest rival isn't an active player.

http://www.mbridge.com/blog_files/pat_riley.jpg

[Flamboyant]

1: Do you believe that an athlete must validate himself through beating an elite rival to achieve G.O.A.T. recognition, or at least be in the discussion?

2: Who did Jordan compete against (and beat) that fits that bill?

I do agree with certain points that ThaRegul8er is making, but I'd have to disagree:

1. No, an athlete shouldn't validate himself by facing opponents that fit certain criteria. However it should be counted as well. And the criteria should be defeating, not facing.

2. IMO the best players MJ defeated multiple times in his career are: Malone(x2), Stockton(x2), Ewing(x5), Barkley(x3), Mourning (x3).
The players he defeated once are: Magic, Shaq, Payton, Thomas, Drexler, Wilkins, Miller.
Admiral, and Hakeem were probably two of the best players in the 90s, but he never faced them.

Now, the true rivalries to consider here are probably the Knicks and the Jazz. The rest are meh.
But I also think it's a bit unfair to Jordan. Magic-Bird rivalry is hyped up to be as the GOAT rivalry, and yet they only faced each other 3 times during NBA. Granted that rivalry started in collage, and series were always the NBA Finals, but it still was a small amount of series when they faced each other. Bird for example defeated Magic only once (just like MJ), while Magic had fairly easier competition in the Western conference.

Three things to point out (that can be used as knocks):
1. The wing players MJ faced are fairly inferior to the elite today. And I don't think his fans are being honest about it. I expect a "Well he was just that much better than all of them, that they are underrated", which is one of the excuses I hate the most, and usually never applies to anyone else (i.e.: Instead of saying Dwight is dominating his peers, same people point out the lack of quality C's in today's game).
2. The bigmen he faced are also fairly overated. People love to say "MJ dominated the GOAT bigmen era with the likes of Cartwright, and Longley." yet fail to mention the bigmen he faced during the finals, or the bigmen Pistons had when they won the pair of titles prior to Bulls run. Yes a quality big is a huge advantage, but it's not a must (and sure wasn't when MJ won).
3. For those who say MJ started to dominate early in his career: He didn't defeat a single HOF-er during the 80s.

That being said I don't think any player has ever dominated a decade like MJ did the 90s. He won 6 titles in 8 years he played, and arguably deserved to be the MVP in all of those years, besides 95.
There is no denying that Jordans GOAT recognition is as valid as it gets. :cheers:

[andgar923]

KOBE STANS are his biggest rival.

They've done more to tarnish his career more than anybody. They are an unstoppable force that stop at nothing to well.... stop him from being the GOAT. They are consumed by it, it is their life's work.

[Desperado]

KOBE STANS are his biggest rival.

They've done more to tarnish his career more than anybody. They are an unstoppable force that stop at nothing to well.... stop him from being the GOAT. They are consumed by it, it is their life's work.

Except the overzealous Kobe fans aren't the only people that dispute that Jordan is the GOAT.

To some people Jordan being the GOAT is an undisputed scientific fact rather than just an opinion and whenever someone disagrees with the notion that he is the clear GOAT by far and away some MJ fans act like you committed blasphemy.

[Manute for Ever!]

KOBE STANS are his biggest rival.

They've done more to tarnish his career more than anybody. They are an unstoppable force that stop at nothing to well.... stop him from being the GOAT. They are consumed by it, it is their life's work.

ISH is definitely more enjoyable when they're nearly all banned like they are now.

http://www.dpm.org.uk/images/Relaxed.jpg

[whatever666]

I always loved seeing him and Reggie go at it..... Reggie was the only one who could ever get under MJs skin.... :oldlol:

[nbacardDOTnet]

Craig Ehlo, Gerald Wilkins (j/k)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbIYkZXH2hk#t=5m28s



John Starks and Knick Defense say hi.

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/z%20Funny%20NBA%20Photos/Funny%20Situation/Fight/starks-vs-jordan.gif



Jordan's greatest rival isn't an active player.

http://www.mbridge.com/blog_files/pat_riley.jpg

What rival ?

If I were not wrong, Pat Riley helped to retire MJ jersey prior to ZO 's Jersey. right ?

[Calabis]

I wouldnt call bird/magic his rivals, because they were out of their prime (individual-team) years and also i dont know why Kobe is on the list because he was not on the level he has been on for the last ten years, when MJ was still on top. And i dont think that Reggie is a rival enough for players in the GOAT discussion. I would also like to add Ewing and his Knicks to the rival list.

You do realize that when Jordan came into the league Bird and Magic where in there primes right.....You realize that Bird called him the toughest player he's ever played against during Jordan's rookie year all star game (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vDOVGe2V78). Even Drexler stated if Jordan had the teammates of Bird and Magic, he would have been winning finals every year. Those were Jordan's rivals, he was trying to get to there level, when he played against them he put up great games, unfortunately his team couldn't compete with theirs

[Calabis]

Except the overzealous Kobe fans aren't the only people that dispute that Jordan is the GOAT.

To some people Jordan being the GOAT is an undisputed scientific fact rather than just an opinion and whenever someone disagrees with the notion that he is the clear GOAT by far and away some MJ fans act like you committed blasphemy.

LMAO, even Jordan doesn't call himself the GOAT, but most of his peers, media and basketball fans in general give him that distinction. I find the Kobestans (like yourself) funny as hell......you'll sit here posting former players or current players who call Kobe "the best right now" and use that as a declaration of truth when fans of Wade/Lebron disagree, yet when people use those same things to validate Jordan...its hogwash, media propaganda, homerism.....GTFOH!!!!

And yes its only the KObestans, who are trying to elevate their hero.....at least the other guys metioned Wilt and Kareem are worth the arguement

[GiveItToBurrito]

I don't want to hijack G.O.A.T.'s Russell thread, but an interesting point was raised about some of the greatest athletes having to test themselves against formidable rivals.

Here's his statement.



Now, this raises two questions.


1: Do you believe that an athlete must validate himself through beating an elite rival to achieve G.O.A.T. recognition, or at least be in the discussion?

2: Who did Jordan compete against (and beat) that fits that bill?

1. Yes. MJ doesn't seem like he beat some great rival because he was clearly the best player. Reggie Miller and Payton could give him trouble, but he was clearly better than them. There were other elite perimeter players in his era, Bird and Magic and Dominique in the 80s, Isaiah and Dominique at the turn of the decade, Grant Hill, Penny, and Payton in the mid-90s, but Jordan always won against them so it was hard for a real "rivalry" to form. It's sort of like how the Wizards always played hard against the Cavs, but it wasn't viewed as a rivalry league-wide since Cleveland always won.

2. See above. Payton could occasionally shut him down, but MJ still won so it didn't really matter.

[jbryan1984]

All the Bad Boys Pistons
Barkley
Stockton/Malone
Drexler
Magic
Shaq
Late 80s/early 90s Cavs
Reggie

[Scott Baker]

To be fair, I will use the most recent lists that have been compiled:

Elliot Kalb (2004) Who's Better, Who's Best in Basketball?

1. Shaq
2. Wilt
3. Jordan
4. Russell
5. Kareem
6. Bird
7. Magic
8. Oscar
9. Duncan
10. Cousy

I saw this in Barnes and Noble last year, opened it up, saw Shaq was #1, closed the book.

[guy]

Now, first of all, let's establish an objective standard. I have no agenda here other than the unceasing search for truth, wherever it might lead.

To be fair, I will use the most recent lists that have been compiled:

Elliot Kalb (2004) Who's Better, Who's Best in Basketball?

1. Shaq
2. Wilt
3. Jordan
4. Russell
5. Kareem
6. Bird
7. Magic
8. Oscar
9. Duncan
10. Cousy
11. Pettit
12. West
13. Baylor
14. Moses Malone
15. Dr. J
16. Hakeem
17. Karl Malone
18. Kobe
19. Mikan
20. Robinson
21. Barkley
22. Barry
23. Dolph Schayes
24. Havlicek
25. Isiah

Simmons (2009) The Book of Basketball

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7. Duncan
8. West
9. Oscar
10. Hakeem
11. Shaq
12. Moses Malone
13. Havlicek
14. Baylor
15. Kobe
16. Dr. J
17. Pettit
18. Karl Malone
19. Barkley
20. LeBron
21. Cousy
22. Garnett
23. Isiah
24. Pippen
25. Stockton

SLAM (http://www.slamonline.com/online/the-magazine/features/2009/06/the-new-top-50/) (2009)

1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Russell
4. Shaq
5. Oscar
6. Magic
7. Kareem
8. Duncan
9. Bird
10. West
11. Baylor
12. Kobe
13. Hakeem
14. Pettit
15. Dr. J
16. Moses Malone
17. Havlicek
18. Karl Malone
19. Isiah
20. Barkley
21. Rick Barry
22. Stockton
23. Elvin Hayes
24. Cousy
25. David Robinson

These are the most recent GOAT player lists that have been compiled, and these will be referred to in order to determine the consensus.

(cont.)

Honestly, I really don't get why Oscar, West, Baylor, Pettit are always considered to be on such a higher level then Malone, Barkley, Isiah, Robinson, and maybe even Drexler and Ewing. I feel like those guys get by alot on the fact that they're pioneers, which is fair to a certain extent. I also feel like alot of people, maybe even the experts, don't look at things in full context.

People look at Oscar's triple-double achievements and don't seem to take into account that much of that was a product of the higher pace. Magic, Jordan, Bird, Pippen, Kidd, Hill, or Lebron probably could've done it playing in that pace and especially if they were going for it. Take that into account, and then look at his team success, and there's virtually none until he teamed up with Kareem. Sure, you could say he had to go up against Russell and Wilt's teams, but you can say that about pretty much anyone in any era.

West and Baylor usually get by on the fact that they made it to 8-9 Finals appearances. Nobody takes into account that there were less teams and less rounds so of course it was more likely for a great team to make it to that many finals then it was in later eras. Also, unlike the players in the 90s that I mentioned, these guys were playing with each other. I'm sure if Barkley played on the Spurs with Robinson they would've made it to alot more Finals then they did.

Pettit's main thing on his resume is that he won a title against Russelll. Russell missed two games in those Finals. If Jordan missed two games in a series, there's a good chance Malone, Ewing, Barkley, or Drexler have 1 more title.

So IMO, I don't see why there should be some penalty towards Jordan for this. In fact, the implying that Jordan didn't play against other great players is insane. Jordan played in a span of 20 years. Other great players who's primes came during that time were Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Shaq, and Duncan. Shortly after Jordan retired finally, we've seen the primes of Kobe, Lebron, and Wade. Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe are all top 10 players ever, and Lebron and Wade have a pretty good chance at getting there. I know Jordan didn't face all these players that much, but my point is due to the timeframe, its not hard to compare Jordan with all of these other greats, and all of these greats with each other in general. Most people agree that Jordan was better then all of those guys, and they didn't necessarily need to see Jordan face all of those guys in a bunch of playoff series to come to that conclusion.

[guy]

I saw this in Barnes and Noble last year, opened it up, saw Shaq was #1, closed the book.

I agree. Some of his arguments are really stupid as well. He says that Shaq and Wilt shouldn't be penalized for their poor FT shooting because it was a testament to their greatness that they were still that great anyway. IMO, its complete BS because obviously if they were good FT shooters he and anyone else would think of them as even greater players and rightfully so. He also penalizes Jordan for losing focus+motivation and retiring so much throughout his career, which is stupid as well because production should be all that really matters, not what drove that production, and we all know Jordan is arguably already penalized for retiring because it stopped him for accomplishing even more.

Of course, Bill Simmons' book has its flaws too though. I think its a disgrace that Shaq isn't even in the top 10, and when arguing about Jordan being #1 he goes off on some story that had nothing with basketball.

Both books are interesting, but Simmons' book is still much better and one of my favorites.

[Holy Random]

ISH is definitely more enjoyable when they're nearly all banned like they are now.

http://www.dpm.org.uk/images/Relaxed.jpg

Omg, did Jeff FINALLY ban them? Wow, ISH is going to be tolerable now.

[Glide2keva]

How can you penalize Jordan for his competition? The russell/wilt era is very overrated IMO.

As mentioned Jordan played and beat guys who should be higher on the list than they are. Tue fact that he prevented the cavs, Knicks, jazz, pacers, sixers, suns, blazers, etc. from winning one title during his run is an amazing accomplishment.

I think Russell winning 11 rings in 13 years is awesome, but in reality, they played a different brand of basketball, there were 10 teamsand players were less athletic.

Jordan is tops on my list, but it's still my opinion.

[97 bulls]

How can you penalize Jordan for his competition? The russell/wilt era is very overrated IMO.

As mentioned Jordan played and beat guys who should be higher on the list than they are. Tue fact that he prevented the cavs, Knicks, jazz, pacers, sixers, suns, blazers, etc. from winning one title during his run is an amazing accomplishment.

I think Russell winning 11 rings in 13 years is awesome, but in reality, they played a different brand of basketball, there were 10 teamsand players were less athletic.

Jordan is tops on my list, but it's still my opinion.
The OP clearly has an agenda. Offcourse russell beat the same guys multiple times. There were only around 10 teeams in the league.

And jordan beat plenty of guys that were top 5 at their positions.

Pg magic and stockton
Sg drexler
Sf
Pf barkley,malone
C shaq

[Ruh-Roh]

The OP clearly has an agenda. Offcourse russell beat the same guys multiple times. There were only around 10 teeams in the league.

And jordan beat plenty of guys that were top 5 at their positions.

Pg magic and stockton
Sg drexler
Sf
Pf barkley,malone
C shaq
:wtf: :wtf:

What's my agenda? I have stated...


I completely agree with Bill Simmons having Jordan at #1, Russell #2, but I also believe Russell should always be in the conversation for top dog.

Jordan was the greatest player, Russell was the greatest winner.

I made the thread because Regul8er brought up a point about rivalries that I initially disagreed with just thinking about the Pistons especially since that was a hump he didn't get over at first, but his point was something I hadn't evaluated all the way and was interesting. That and I didn't want to hijack another good thread to explore it.

Soooooo again, whats this clear agenda I have?

[ThaRegul8r]

:wtf: :wtf:

What's my agenda? I have stated...



I made the thread because Regul8er brought up a point about rivalries that I initially disagreed with just thinking about the Pistons especially since that was a hump he didn't get over at first, but his point was something I hadn't evaluated all the way and was interesting. That and I didn't want to hijack another good thread to explore it.

Soooooo again, whats this clear agenda I have?

The "agenda" of course, would be looking at anything having to do with Jordan critically. One is allowed to do so with other legends of course, but heaven forbid one should happen to do the same with MJ.

:rolleyes:

[Ruh-Roh]

The "agenda" of course, would be looking at anything having to do with Jordan critically. One is allowed to do so with other legends of course, but heaven forbid one should happen to do the same with MJ.

:rolleyes:

I made a thread about exploring it critically, then PM'ed you to participate because I knew you had the most to offer on your side of the debate. You made a very interesting argument I hadn't encountered before and I was very interested in seeing where it would lead me.

**** you guys for labeling that as close-minded and subsequently discrediting any facilitating I can do.

That's pretty cheap.

I love Jordan. Do I think I'll ever change his rank in my view? Honestly, probably not, but I'd like to think I can, and at least I'm being honest about it and taking steps to entertain other arguments.

edit - I even repped you for taking part I think...

[Showtime]

People look at Oscar's triple-double achievements and don't seem to take into account that much of that was a product of the higher pace.

Then explain why nobody else was doing it at that time if it was easier? Nobody of his era came close to those numbers, and there were talented guards like West out there who handled the ball, could pass and score. The fact is, he was doing things nobody else was doing, similar to how Lebron was dominating with close to 30/8/8 numbers which nobody else was able to match. That level of domination is timeless, and there's a reason why people of his day say he deserves to be mentioned alongside Jordan, Magic, and Bird.

Also, they didn't exactly give away assists as liberally as they do today, and they were more strict on the traveling and carrying violations. It takes a very skilled player to do what Oscar did, and not only that, but he helped revolutionize perimeter play with his ability in the midrange with his pump fake jumpshot, and his post play when he bodied up smaller guards.


Magic, Jordan, Bird, Pippen, Kidd, Hill, or Lebron probably could've done it playing in that pace and especially if they were going for it.

You are proving your own counter-argument, which is that Oscar deserves to be mentioned with those top players, because only the best of the best could have done what he did. He was the Jordan/Bird/Magic/Lebron of his era. And I also doubt that Kidd, Pippen, or Hill would reach 30 PPG a game along with a triple double.


Take that into account, and then look at his team success, and there's virtually none until he teamed up with Kareem.

And do you know why that is? No, because I doubt you ever looked into it. Many look at the Royals and assume Oscar had empty stats because they didn't win that often. But few have read about the issues of ownership, the team division between Lucas and Oscar, and how Mo Stokes' injury probably cost them a title when they took the Celtics to 7 games. We have seen too many teams with great talent that just had the wrong pieces and bad chemistry to point fingers and say that Oscar was overrated.

Not enough time to finish my reply to the rest of your post...

[Glide2keva]

The "agenda" of course, would be looking at anything having to do with Jordan critically. One is allowed to do so with other legends of course, but heaven forbid one should happen to do the same with MJ.

:rolleyes:
Looking at Jordan critically is fine in my book, but any case for Russell has to take into account for there only being ten teams in the league and that his competition was overrated, given that a lot of his contemporaries awesome dimensional players. Most couldn't dribble with both hands and couldn't shoot, hence the higher, more inflated rebounding numbers.

Some of russell's comp needs to be brought down a few notches given that mostly all of jordan's comp could play in the former's erawhile none of Russell's comp could play in the latter's era. Jordan is being penalized for having to work harder for a title with less talent leading up to his title run, whereas Russell is being rewarded for coming to an already great team. Again there were only ten teams so yeah he would face those greats more often as his probability of facing them is higher. Jordan and magic and bird and Isaiah all faced more competition on a nightly basis than Russell. Plus having to travel, back to back games etc. their title runs to me are more impressive. Russell never had to travel any further west than Minnesota as most teams were in the same coast.

You can interpret this how you want as it is you prerogative, but I feel that magic, bird, zeke, and Jordan shouldn't be penalized for their competition, oh wait. We're not penalizing magic and bird and zeke, just Jordan and you say there's no agenda.

[Round Mound]

Bird and Barkley: The Best Forwards I Ever Saw

[ThaRegul8r]

I made a thread about exploring it critically, then PM'ed you to participate because I knew you had the most to offer on your side of the debate. You made a very interesting argument I hadn't encountered before and I was very interested in seeing where it would lead me.

I know you're exploring it critically. I was answering your question as to why 97 bulls said the OP (you) had an agenda. Because you're actually taking the time to look critically. For some reason, people are supposed to look at other legends critically, while looking at Jordan uncritically. It's a double standard.

[Glide2keva]

Then explain why nobody else was doing it at that time if it was easier? Nobody of his era came close to those numbers, and there were talented guards like West out there who handled the ball, could pass and score. The fact is, he was doing things nobody else was doing, similar to how Lebron was dominating with close to 30/8/8 numbers which nobody else was able to match. That level of domination is timeless, and there's a reason why people of his day say he deserves to be mentioned alongside Jordan, Magic, and Bird.

Also, they didn't exactly give away assists as liberally as they do today, and they were more strict on the traveling and carrying violations. It takes a very skilled player to do what Oscar did, and not only that, but he helped revolutionize perimeter play with his ability in the midrange with his pump fake jumpshot, and his post play when he bodied up smaller guards.



You are proving your own counter-argument, which is that Oscar deserves to be mentioned with those top players, because only the best of the best could have done what he did. He was the Jordan/Bird/Magic/Lebron of his era. And I also doubt that Kidd, Pippen, or Hill would reach 30 PPG a game along with a triple double.



And do you know why that is? No, because I doubt you ever looked into it. Many look at the Royals and assume Oscar had empty stats because they didn't win that often. But few have read about the issues of ownership, the team division between Lucas and Oscar, and how Mo Stokes' injury probably cost them a title when they took the Celtics to 7 games. We have seen too many teams with great talent that just had the wrong pieces and bad chemistry to point fingers and say that Oscar was overrated.

Not enough time to finish my reply to the rest of your post...
I'm a Jordan and have no problem with the big O. I have him in my top 6 all time. I call it the immortal six as no one is going to break into it.

Jordan, Wilt, Russell, Magic, Bird, Robertson.

That's my top six.

[Ruh-Roh]

I'm not sure if the "f you" is directed at me, but if it is, I know you're exploring it critically. I was answering your question as to why 97 bulls said the OP (you) had an agenda. Because you're actually taking the time to look critically. For some reason, people are supposed to look at other legends critically, while looking at Jordan uncritically. It's a double standard.

I misinterpreted it as an accusation of not being willing to critically examine Jordan and after all the steps I had just taken to do that, it really pissed me off :oldlol:

so sorry for the misunderstanding...but I still don't quite get why 97 bulls said that I had an agenda.

[Glide2keva]

I know you're exploring it critically. I was answering your question as to why 97 bulls said the OP (you) had an agenda. Because you're actually taking the time to look critically. For some reason, people are supposed to look at other legends critically, while looking at Jordan uncritically. It's a double standard.
Ihave no problem with it. But it seems like it's done in another effort to try and discredit Jordan while not discrediting any other player. That's where people say the agenda comes in. No one else is being brought to be looked at critically and taking into account the massive number of Kobe trolls who live solely to discredit kobe's idol, one could read this and see that there is no context being taken into account and no adjustment for era and see this as an agenda thread.

You look at it critically? Be my guest, but be fair across the board and don't omit things that would tarnish other legends and elevate Jordan above them.

[ThaRegul8r]

Looking at Jordan critically is fine in my book, but any case for Russell has to take into account for there only being ten teams in the league and that his competition was overrated

I used an objective measure by not using my opinion, but using all of the most recent GOAT lists that have been made, by experts, not message board posters with an agenda.


Some of russell's comp needs to be brought down a few notches given that mostly all of jordan's comp could play in the former's erawhile none of Russell's comp could play in the latter's era.

You've already displayed bias.


Jordan is being penalized for having to work harder for a title with less talent leading up to his title run, whereas Russell is being rewarded for coming to an already great team.

Jordan's competition is being looked at and comparison. Jordan had less talent and he was facing lesser talent. The analysis shows this.


Again there were only ten teams so yeah he would face those greats more often as his probability of facing them is higher.

Wouldn't that make it... tougher? What if Jordan faced the Bad Boys 10-12 times a season instead of 4 at the max? Get the picture?


Jordan and magic and bird and Isaiah all faced more competition on a nightly basis than Russell.

2-4 times > 10-12 times????


Plus having to travel, back to back games etc. their title runs to me are more impressive.

You're not providing any objective proof here, just biased opinion. Players in Russell's day often had to play 4-5 consecutive games, and they didn't have the cushy transportation modern players do.

Here is objective EVIDENCE: Random season pulled up:

1/25/66
1/27/66
1/28/66
1/29/66
1/30/66

That's four straight, and five in six days. Without private jets and the modern luxuries.


Russell never had to travel any further west than Minnesota as most teams were in the same coast.

So a Western Division didn't exist? :rolleyes:


You can interpret this how you want as it is you prerogative, but I feel that magic, bird, zeke, and Jordan shouldn't be penalized for their competition, oh wait. We're not penalizing magic and bird and zeke, just Jordan and you say there's no agenda.

Maybe you forgot were I said I'd do the same analysis for Magic and Bird when I had the time. It was 4 am. I didn't have time to do them too. And looking critically = "penalizing" now?

But this is what I'm talking about. People are not making any attempt to provide objective evidence for anything. It's all biased opinion because they immediately take exception to any critical analysis being applied to MJ. It was already shown at the very beginning that people had to misrepresent who Jordan even faced. So if this fanbase is willing to do that, they're willing to misrepresent other things as well.

[ThaRegul8r]

Ihave no problem with it. But it seems like it's done in another effort to try and discredit Jordan while not discrediting any other player. That's where people say the agenda comes in. No one else is being brought to be looked at critically and taking into account the massive number of Kobe trolls who live solely to discredit kobe's idol, one could read this and see that there is no context being taken into account and no adjustment for era and see this as an agenda thread.

*sigh* Kobe fans are an entirely different animal. The most exasperating fanbase there is.

[jlauber]

I used an objective measure by not using my opinion, but using all of the most recent GOAT lists that have been made, by experts, not message board posters with an agenda.



You've already displayed bias.



Jordan's competition is being looked at and comparison. Jordan had less talent and he was facing lesser talent. The analysis shows this.



Wouldn't that make it... tougher? What if Jordan faced the Bad Boys 10-12 times a season instead of 4 at the max? Get the picture?



2-4 times > 10-12 times????



You're not providing any objective proof here, just biased opinion. Players in Russell's day often had to play 4-5 consecutive games, and they didn't have the cushy transportation modern players do.

Here is objective EVIDENCE: Random season pulled up:

1/25/66
1/27/66
1/28/66
1/29/66
1/30/66

That's four straight, and five in six days. Without private jets and the modern luxuries.



So a Western Division didn't exist? :rolleyes:



Maybe you forgot were I said I'd do the same analysis for Magic and Bird when I had the time. It was 4 am. I didn't have time to do them too. And looking critically = "penalizing" now?

But this is what I'm talking about. People are not making any attempt to provide objective evidence for anything. It's all biased opinion because they immediately take exception to any critical analysis being applied to MJ. It was already shown at the very beginning that people had to misrepresent who Jordan even faced. So if this fanbase is willing to do that, they're willing to misrepresent other things as well.

You are among a very small percentage of posters' here who I actually respect. I won't give out any other names because I would probably leave some out, but it is not many.

And BTW, there are posters here that I do not always agree with (and in some cases, rarely agree with), BUT, I do RESPECT them. It is just too bad that they are few and far between.

[ThaRegul8r]

Here's the analysis for Larry Bird, using the exact same criteria for Jordan. Bird won his first NBA title in 1981, so that's when the analysis began. He won his last NBA title in 1986. However, since the Celtics were legitimate title contenders until 1988, Bird will be held accountable for those years. (Jordan retired after first and second three-peats, so his analysis is only from 1991 to 1993, and 1994 to 1998, when he competed for NBA championships while having the necessary supporting cast.)

Magic (1984, 1985, 1987)
Kareem (1984, 1985, 1987)
Erving (1981, 1982)
Moses (1981, 1985)
Jordan (1986, 1987)
Gilmore (1981)
Dominique (1983, 1986, 1988)
Bernard King (1984)
Barkley (1985)
Sidney Moncrief (1984, 1986, 1987)
Hakeem (1986)
Isiah (1985, 1987, 1988)
Ewing (1988)

Magic is ranked #7 by Kalb, #4 by Simmons, #6 by SLAM
Kareem is ranked #5 by Kalb, #3 by Simmons, #7 by SLAM
Erving is ranked #15 by Kalb, #16 by Simmons, #15 by SLAM
Moses is ranked #14 by Kalb, #12 by Simmons, #16 by SLAM
Jordan is ranked #3 by Kalb, #1 by Simmons, #1 by SLAM
Gilmore is ranked #76 by Simmons, unranked by Kalb and SLAM
Dominique is ranked #49 by Kalb, #55 by Simmons, #43 by SLAM
Bernard King is ranked #58 in Simmons, just missed the cut in Kalb, and is unranked by SLAM
Barkley is ranked #21 by Kalb, #19 by Simmons, #20 by SLAM
Moncrief is ranked #73 by Simmons, unranked by Kalb and SLAM
Hakeem is ranked #16 by Kalb, #10 by Simmons, #13 by SLAM
Isiah is ranked #25 by Kalb, #23 by Simmons, #19 by SLAM
Ewing is ranked #38 by Kalb, #39 by Simmons, #36 by SLAM

To summarize:

Kalb: 8x facing a Top 10 GOAT Player, 4x facing a Top 15 GOAT Player, 1x facing a Top 20 GOAT Player, 4x facing a Top 25 GOAT Player
Simmons: 9x facing a Top 10 GOAT Player, 2x facing a Top 15 GOAT Player, 3x facing a Top 20 GOAT Player,
SLAM: 8x facing a Top 10 GOAT Player, 3x facing a Top 15 GOAT Player, 6x facing a Top 20 GOAT Player

COMPARISON

RUSSELL
Kalb: 11x facing a Top 10 GOAT player, 16x facing a Top 15 GOAT player.
Simmons: 17x facing a Top 10 GOAT player, 10x facing a Top 15 GOAT player
SLAM: 17x facing a Top 10 GOAT player, 10x facing a Top 15 GOAT player

BIRD
Kalb: 8x facing a Top 10 GOAT Player, 4x facing a Top 15 GOAT Player, 1x facing a Top 20 GOAT Player, 4x facing a Top 25 GOAT Player
Simmons: 9x facing a Top 10 GOAT Player, 2x facing a Top 15 GOAT Player, 3x facing a Top 20 GOAT Player,
SLAM: 8x facing a Top 10 GOAT Player, 3x facing a Top 15 GOAT Player, 6x facing a Top 20 GOAT Player

(It turns out there's no hyperbole when talking about the '80s competition.)

JORDAN

Kalb: 3x facing a Top 10 GOAT Player, 0x facing a Top 15 GOAT player, 2x facing a Top 20 GOAT Player, 3x facing a Top 25 GOAT Player.
Simmons: 1x facing a Top 10 GOAT Player, 2x facing a Top 15 GOAT Player, 4x facing a Top 20 GOAT Player, 3x facing a Top 25 GOAT Player.
SLAM: 3x facing a Top 10 GOAT Player, 0x facing a Top 15 GOAT Player, 5x facing a Top 20 GOAT Player, 2x facing a Top 25 GOAT Player.

The results speak for themselves. Magic will undergo the next analysis.

[Glide2keva]

I used an objective measure by not using my opinion, but using all of the most recent GOAT lists that have been made, by experts, not message board posters with an agenda.



You've already displayed bias.



Jordan's competition is being looked at and comparison. Jordan had less talent and he was facing lesser talent. The analysis shows this.



Wouldn't that make it... tougher? What if Jordan faced the Bad Boys 10-12 times a season instead of 4 at the max? Get the picture?



2-4 times > 10-12 times????



You're not providing any objective proof here, just biased opinion. Players in Russell's day often had to play 4-5 consecutive games, and they didn't have the cushy transportation modern players do.

Here is objective EVIDENCE: Random season pulled up:

1/25/66
1/27/66
1/28/66
1/29/66
1/30/66

That's four straight, and five in six days. Without private jets and the modern luxuries.



So a Western Division didn't exist? :rolleyes:



Maybe you forgot were I said I'd do the same analysis for Magic and Bird when I had the time. It was 4 am. I didn't have time to do them too. And looking critically = "penalizing" now?

But this is what I'm talking about. People are not making any attempt to provide objective evidence for anything. It's all biased opinion because they immediately take exception to any critical analysis being applied to MJ. It was already shown at the very beginning that people had to misrepresent who Jordan even faced. So if this fanbase is willing to do that, they're willing to misrepresent other things as well.
I'm not misrepresenting anything.

Players were more athletic, versatile, faster, etc than what Russell faced. That's fact not my opinion. What is my opinion is that some of Russell's competition should be further down on the all time lists and that they are ranked so high ( which is someone else's opinion by the way) and some of the players we saw in our time should be up a little higher.

Jordan didn't face his main rivals in the finals, he faced them in the east playoffs. Should he be penalized for that too?

I'm failing to understand the point of this thread. Is it to just discredit Jordan? Haven't we seen enough of those posts already?

[Glide2keva]

Here's the analysis for Larry Bird, using the exact same criteria for Jordan. Bird won his first NBA title in 1981, so that's when the analysis began. He won his last NBA title in 1986. However, since the Celtics were legitimate title contenders until 1988, Bird will be held accountable for those years. (Jordan retired after first and second three-peats, so his analysis is only from 1991 to 1993, and 1994 to 1998, when he competed for NBA championships while having the necessary supporting cast.)

Magic (1984, 1985, 1987)
Kareem (1984, 1985, 1987)
Erving (1981, 1982)
Moses (1981, 1985)
Jordan (1986, 1987)
Gilmore (1981)
Dominique (1983, 1986, 1988)
Bernard King (1984)
Barkley (1985)
Sidney Moncrief (1984, 1986, 1987)
Hakeem (1986)
Isiah (1985, 1987, 1988)
Ewing (1988)

Magic is ranked #7 by Kalb, #4 by Simmons, #6 by SLAM
Kareem is ranked #5 by Kalb, #3 by Simmons, #7 by SLAM
Erving is ranked #15 by Kalb, #16 by Simmons, #15 by SLAM
Moses is ranked #14 by Kalb, #12 by Simmons, #16 by SLAM
Jordan is ranked #3 by Kalb, #1 by Simmons, #1 by SLAM
Gilmore is ranked #76 by Simmons, unranked by Kalb and SLAM
Dominique is ranked #49 by Kalb, #55 by Simmons, #43 by SLAM
Bernard King is ranked #58 in Simmons, just missed the cut in Kalb, and is unranked by SLAM
Barkley is ranked #21 by Kalb, #19 by Simmons, #20 by SLAM
Moncrief is ranked #73 by Simmons, unranked by Kalb and SLAM
Hakeem is ranked #16 by Kalb, #10 by Simmons, #13 by SLAM
Isiah is ranked #25 by Kalb, #23 by Simmons, #19 by SLAM
Ewing is ranked #38 by Kalb, #39 by Simmons, #36 by SLAM

To summarize:

Kalb: 8x facing a Top 10 GOAT Player, 4x facing a Top 15 GOAT Player, 1x facing a Top 20 GOAT Player, 4x facing a Top 25 GOAT Player
Simmons: 9x facing a Top 10 GOAT Player, 2x facing a Top 15 GOAT Player, 3x facing a Top 20 GOAT Player,
SLAM: 8x facing a Top 10 GOAT Player, 3x facing a Top 15 GOAT Player, 6x facing a Top 20 GOAT Player

COMPARISON

RUSSELL
Kalb: 11x facing a Top 10 GOAT player, 16x facing a Top 15 GOAT player.
Simmons: 17x facing a Top 10 GOAT player, 10x facing a Top 15 GOAT player
SLAM: 17x facing a Top 10 GOAT player, 10x facing a Top 15 GOAT player

BIRD
Kalb: 8x facing a Top 10 GOAT Player, 4x facing a Top 15 GOAT Player, 1x facing a Top 20 GOAT Player, 4x facing a Top 25 GOAT Player
Simmons: 9x facing a Top 10 GOAT Player, 2x facing a Top 15 GOAT Player, 3x facing a Top 20 GOAT Player,
SLAM: 8x facing a Top 10 GOAT Player, 3x facing a Top 15 GOAT Player, 6x facing a Top 20 GOAT Player

(It turns out there's no hyperbole when talking about the '80s competition.)

JORDAN

Kalb: 3x facing a Top 10 GOAT Player, 0x facing a Top 15 GOAT player, 2x facing a Top 20 GOAT Player, 3x facing a Top 25 GOAT Player.
Simmons: 1x facing a Top 10 GOAT Player, 2x facing a Top 15 GOAT Player, 4x facing a Top 20 GOAT Player, 3x facing a Top 25 GOAT Player.
SLAM: 3x facing a Top 10 GOAT Player, 0x facing a Top 15 GOAT Player, 5x facing a Top 20 GOAT Player, 2x facing a Top 25 GOAT Player.

The results speak for themselves. Magic will undergo the next analysis.
But again, you're trying to base a fact off of an opinion of a magazine and two books written by guys who are giving their opinions. So in essence, the whole things is flawed and not exact.

[VIP2000]

Mario Elie
Kendall Gill
Armon Gilliam
Laphonso Ellis
Labradford Smith

[ThaRegul8r]

I'm not misrepresenting anything.

If you didn't misrepresent anything, then it doesn't apply to you. If it doesn't, you shouldn't feel the need to respond to this unless it struck a nerve. Go back to the first and second pages. Several people did try to misrepresent what actually happened.


Jordan didn't face his main rivals in the finals, he faced them in the east playoffs. Should he be penalized for that too?

He's credited with EVERYONE he faced in the postseason. Whether he faced them in the Eastern playoffs or the NBA Finals is irrelevant. As long as he faced them in a postseason in which he was competing to win a ring after he got the necessary supporting cast. Why so defensive?


I'm failing to understand the point of this thread. Is it to just discredit Jordan? Haven't we seen enough of those posts already?

Again, is a critical analysis "discrediting?" Attempting to put things in historical perspective is "discrediting?" Yet people seem to have no problem doing so for other players. This double standard is disturbing. The truth should withstand any scrutinizing. Only lies fall apart when looked at closely. So what's the problem?

[ThaRegul8r]

But again, you're trying to base a fact off of an opinion of a magazine and two books written by guys who are giving their opinions. So in essence, the whole things is flawed and not exact.

So what do you suggest? We should go off the "opinions" of message board posters who hardly attempt to be objective and have agendas? And I'm willing to bet you don't have any problem with Simmons' and SLAM's ranking of Jordan as #1, but the rest is "just opinion?"

:rolleyes:

These are GOAT lists published by experts who are not me, not you, and not posters on a message board. People who have time to actually research, and have access to things that you do not, and who are actually paid to do so. Aren't people so quick to talk about "consensus" and what "other people" say? Now suddenly it's invalid when trying to go by a consensus of basketball experts?

Right.

:rolleyes:

Find out about qualitative research. Some kind of standard must be used, which is NOT formed by any poster on this board who doesn't have the requisite knowledge, hasn't bothered to do any research or use anything other than "feelings," and who doesn't have an agenda.

[ThaRegul8r]

Same analysis for Magic. Like Russell, Magic won from Year One, and in his 12 years he lead the team to 9 NBA Finals (second to Russell), the last being 1991, which of course overlaps with Jordan's rise to the top.

Erving (1980, 1983)
Moses (1981, 1983)
Gervin (1982, 1983)
Bird (1984, 1985, 1987)
Gilmore (1986)
Hakeem (1986)
Karl Malone (1988)
Stockton (1988)
Isiah (1988, 1989)
Hakeem (1990, 1991)
Drexler (1989, 1991)
Jordan (1991)

Erving is ranked #15 by Kalb, #16 by Simmons, #15 by SLAM
Moses is ranked #14 by Kalb, #12 by Simmons, #16 by SLAM
Gervin is ranked #26 by Kalb, #34 by Simmons, #45 by SLAM
Bird is ranked #6 by Kalb, #5 by Simmons, #9 by SLAM
Gilmore is ranked #76 by Simmons, unranked by Kalb and SLAM
Karl Malone is ranked #17 by Kalb, #18 by Simmons, #18 by SLAM
Stockton is ranked #27 by Kalb, #25 by Simmons, #22 by SLAM
Isiah is ranked #25 by Kalb, #23 by Simmons, #19 by SLAM
Hakeem is ranked #16 by Kalb, #10 by Simmons, #13 by SLAM
Drexler is ranked #50 by Kalb, #43 by Simmons, #41 by SLAM
Jordan is ranked #3 by Kalb, #1 by Simmons, #1 by SLAM

To summarize:

Kalb: 4x facing a Top 10 GOAT Player, 4x facing a Top 15 GOAT Player, 3x facing a Top 20 GOAT Player, 2x facing a Top 25 GOAT Player
Simmons: 6x facing a Top 10 GOAT Player, 2x facing a Top 15 GOAT Player, 3x facing a Top 20 GOAT Player, 3x facing a Top 25 GOAT Player
SLAM: 4x facing a Top 10 GOAT Player, 4x facing a Top 15 GOAT Player, 5x facing a Top 20 GOAT Player

FINAL COMPARISON
(in descending order of competition)

RUSSELL
Kalb: 11x facing a Top 10 GOAT player, 16x facing a Top 15 GOAT player.
Simmons: 17x facing a Top 10 GOAT player, 10x facing a Top 15 GOAT player
SLAM: 17x facing a Top 10 GOAT player, 10x facing a Top 15 GOAT player

BIRD
Kalb: 8x facing a Top 10 GOAT Player, 4x facing a Top 15 GOAT Player, 1x facing a Top 20 GOAT Player, 4x facing a Top 25 GOAT Player
Simmons: 9x facing a Top 10 GOAT Player, 2x facing a Top 15 GOAT Player, 3x facing a Top 20 GOAT Player,
SLAM: 8x facing a Top 10 GOAT Player, 3x facing a Top 15 GOAT Player, 6x facing a Top 20 GOAT Player

MAGIC
Kalb: 4x facing a Top 10 GOAT Player, 4x facing a Top 15 GOAT Player, 3x facing a Top 20 GOAT Player, 2x facing a Top 25 GOAT Player
Simmons: 6x facing a Top 10 GOAT Player, 2x facing a Top 15 GOAT Player, 3x facing a Top 20 GOAT Player, 3x facing a Top 25 GOAT Player
SLAM: 4x facing a Top 10 GOAT Player, 4x facing a Top 15 GOAT Player, 5x facing a Top 20 GOAT Player

JORDAN
Kalb: 3x facing a Top 10 GOAT Player, 0x facing a Top 15 GOAT player, 2x facing a Top 20 GOAT Player, 3x facing a Top 25 GOAT Player.
Simmons: 1x facing a Top 10 GOAT Player, 2x facing a Top 15 GOAT Player, 4x facing a Top 20 GOAT Player, 3x facing a Top 25 GOAT Player.
SLAM: 3x facing a Top 10 GOAT Player, 0x facing a Top 15 GOAT Player, 5x facing a Top 20 GOAT Player, 2x facing a Top 25 GOAT Player.

[Glide2keva]

Either way it's still opinions. The rankings are where the opinions come in. These experts are still nothing more than guys giving their opinions and it should be taken with a grain of salt.

Everyone had to beat the people they faced.

Russell won in a league with ten teams, had less athletic players. Wilt played in that same league but didn't benefit from having a hall of fame team to win with.

Wilt didn't win until he went to a stacked lakers team in 72.

Jordan had his first three titles with mostly a team that was drafted around him. Jordan also faced the league's second all time leading scorer twice and won twice, also while facing the all time steals and assist leader. He faced one of the all time leading rebounders.

Jordan faced stiff competition and nothing can take that away from him.

[Alhazred]

Same analysis for Magic. Like Russell, Magic won from Year One, and in his 12 years he lead the team to 9 NBA Finals (second to Russell), the last being 1991, which of course overlaps with Jordan's rise to the top.

Erving (1980, 1983)
Moses (1981, 1983)
Gervin (1982,1983)
Bird (1984, 1985, 1987)
Gilmore (1986)
Hakeem (1986)
Karl Malone (1988)
Stockton (1988)
Isiah (1988, 1989)
Hakeem (1990, 1991)
Drexler (1989, 1991)
Jordan (1991)



Why are you counting 1981, the year Magic and the Lakers lost in the first round? You also listed several other seasons where he didn't actually win against said opponent. Wasn't this thread supposed to be about who they actually beat on their way to a championship? Otherwise, why count any of the seasons in bold?


Now, let's take a look at Jordan. As we all know, Jordan won his first NBA title in 1991, and his last NBA title in 1998. I will not penalize him for the years he didn't win. What I'm interested in is who his competition was when he started winning. Since Russell starting winning from Year One, his entire career was looked at. Since Jordan didn't start winning until his seventh year, that's when we'll begin our analysis.

So you're examining Russell's competition over his entire career but ignoring 6 seasons of Jordan's prime? :facepalm Well, no wonder Russell wins this comparison.

[no pun intended]

john starks.

[ThaRegul8r]

Either way it's still opinions. The rankings are where the opinions come in. These experts are still nothing more than guys giving their opinions and it should be taken with a grain of salt.

Yet people throw their opinions around here are fact. People here act like the "opinion" that Jordan is the undisputed GOAT as FACT, and will ridicule anyone who suggests there were other great players who also have a case. I find it funny how people are selective with opinions.


Russell won in a league with ten teams, had less athletic players.

Russell won in a league undiluted by expansion, where talent was concentrated, where one had to face the great players of the day 10-12 times in a season and again during the playoffs, whereas now expansion has diffused the talent, and you only have to play great players 2-4 times a season.


Wilt played in that same league but didn't benefit from having a hall of fame team to win with.

Wilt didn't win until he went to a stacked lakers team in 72.

False. Wilt beat Russell in '67. Now, if you are unaware of this basic fact which should be common knowledge, then why should an uninformed "opinion" mean anything? I know nothing about engineering. I readily admit to this. So if I try to give me "opinion" to an engineer, why should he value anything I have to say if I don't know anything?


Jordan had his first three titles with mostly a team that was drafted around him. Jordan also faced the league's second all time leading scorer twice and won twice also while facing the all time steals and assist leader.

Russell faced the all-time scorer (at the time he played) eight times, Bird faced the all-time scorer three times, and Magic faced the same second all-time leading scorer twice and won twice, while also facing the self-same all time steals and assist leader twice and winning twice, and faced two Top 10 GOAT Players five times, winning three times. The third Top 10 GOAT Player he faced was Jordan, who won the matchup, and Jordan got the appropriate credit for that.


He faced one of the all time leading rebounders.

Russell faced one of the all-time leading rebounders (Wilt)

[ThaRegul8r]

Why are you counting 1981, the year Magic and the Lakers lost in the first round? You also listed several other seasons where he didn't actually win against said opponent.

I listed everyone players in question had to go through in order to win a title. Some seasons they did not go through them, which is why they didn't win that year. Did you miss where I counted 1995 for Jordan? Look again.


Shaq (1995, 1996)

#1 by Kalb, #11 by Simmons, #4 by Shaq

Ewing - 4 times
Barkley - 2 times
Shaq - 2 times

Jordan competed in the 1995 postseason for an NBA title, had to go through Shaq and came up short. He is held accountable for that just like every other great. However, Jordan made it right the next season.


So you're examining Russell's competition over his entire career but ignoring 6 seasons of Jordan's prime? :facepalm Well, no wonder Russell wins this comparison.

How about reading. Russell starting winning from YEAR ONE, and didn't stop until YEAR 13. So his whole career gets looked at. Jordan didn't start winning until 1991. I specifically stated I wasn't going to penalize Jordan for win he didn't win. Jordan didn't win his whole career like Russell did. Maybe if he'd started a little sooner, the analysis could have began earlier.


Now, let's take a look at Jordan. As we all know, Jordan won his first NBA title in 1991, and his last NBA title in 1998. I will not penalize him for the years he didn't win. What I'm interested in is who his competition was when he started winning. Since Russell starting winning from Year One, his entire career was looked at. Since Jordan didn't start winning until his seventh year, that's when we'll begin our analysis.

Try reading next time.

EDIT: Larry Bird was analyzed for a seven year span from his first title (1981) to 1988, when they were in the ECF and still legitimate contenders for an NBA title. 1991 to 1993, 1994 to 1998 is seven years too. Where's the excuse there?

[icewill36]

what single player, shooting guard, was jordans greatest rival ?? it seems like there hardly any really good shooting guards compared to jordan

[ukplayer4]

what single player, shooting guard, was jordans greatest rival ?? it seems like there hardly any really good shooting guards compared to jordan
:roll: :roll: :hammerhead: :hammerhead:

[NinjaSeal]

if you really watched the knicks and the bulls play for those that said starks , it was really latrell spreewell taking shots back and forth with jordan

spree would put jordan in the baseline fade area , imititate jordans head fakes tauntingly and take the fade and it would go in

spree n jordan would go back n forth doing this everytime i seen latrell n jordan play against each other

u dont see stuff like that anymore , spree with the headfakes taunting mj
jordan getting mad and exploding the scoreboards

not john starks

[Glide2keva]

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]Yet people throw their opinions around here are fact. People here act like the "opinion" that Jordan is the undisputed GOAT as FACT, and will ridicule anyone who suggests there were other great players who also have a case. I find it funny how people are selective with opinions.



Russell won in a league undiluted by expansion, where talent was concentrated, where one had to face the great players of the day 10-12 times in a season and again during the playoffs, whereas now expansion has diffused the talent, and you only have to play great players 2-4 times a season.



False. Wilt beat Russell in '67. Now, if you are unaware of this basic fact which should be common knowledge, then why should an uninformed "opinion" mean anything? I know nothing about engineering. I readily admit to this. So if I try to give me "opinion" to an engineer, why should he value anything I have to say if I don't know anything?



Russell faced the all-time scorer (at the time he played) eight times, Bird faced the all-time scorer three times, and Magic faced the same second all-time leading scorer twice and won twice, while also facing the self-same all time steals and assist leader twice and winning twice, and faced two Top 10 GOAT Players five times, winning three times. The third Top 10 GOAT Player he faced was Jordan, who won the matchup, and Jordan got the appropriate credit for that.



Russell faced one of the all-time leading rebounders (Wilt)

[Glide2keva]

I listed everyone players in question had to go through in order to win a title. Some seasons they did not go through them, which is why they didn't win that year. Did you miss where I counted 1995 for Jordan? Look again.



Jordan competed in the 1995 postseason for an NBA title, had to go through Shaq and came up short. He is held accountable for that just like every other great. However, Jordan made it right the next season.



How about reading. Russell starting winning from YEAR ONE, and didn't stop until YEAR 13. So his whole career gets looked at. Jordan didn't start winning until 1991. I specifically stated I wasn't going to penalize Jordan for win he didn't win. Jordan didn't win his whole career like Russell did. Maybe if he'd started a little sooner, the analysis could have began earlier.



Try reading next time.

EDIT: Larry Bird was analyzed for a seven year span from his first title (1981) to 1988, when they were in the ECF and still legitimate contenders for an NBA title. 1991 to 1993, 1994 to 1998 is seven years too. Where's the excuse there?
Jordan didn't play in 1994 and only played in 19 games in 95. The 95-96 season was his first full season out of retirement. You can't count post seasons in which he didn't play.

There's your agenda.

[ThaRegul8r]

The thing is I respect what they did and am not one of those posters who readily discredit the past. If anything I revere those guys. But if you're trying to say some how Jordan's titles are tainted because of when he came in the league and not having a great team when he came in the league, then how does that not reek of agenda?

Strawman. Show me where I said Jordan's titles were "tainted." YOU are now misrepresenting ME, and I don't appreciate it.

[ThaRegul8r]

Jordan didn't play in 1994 and only played in 19 games in 95. The 95-96 season was his first full season out of retirement. You can't count post seasons in which he didn't play.

There's your agenda.

I didn't count 1994. Yet another misrepresentation.

EDIT: I re-read my post and see I accidentally typed "1994 to 1998." Typo. 1991-93, 95-98 is seven years.

[Alhazred]

I listed everyone players in question had to go through in order to win a title. Some seasons they did not go through them, which is why they didn't win that year. Did you miss where I counted 1995 for Jordan? Look again.

Magic never beat a team featuring Moses Malone the same year he won a title, though. Same with Hakeem Olajuwon and Michael Jordan. Also, he only beat Clyde one year when he won a championship, but it was in 1985. If you're confident that Michael's competition was inferior, then you should feel no need to post false information to make Magic's resume look better than it is.

Also, why did you only list Isiah once when the Bulls faced the Pistons four times from 1988 to 1991? If you're also listing times that they didn't win, then those matchups should count, as well.


How about reading. Russell starting winning from YEAR ONE, and didn't stop until YEAR 13. So his whole career gets looked at. Jordan didn't start winning until 1991. I specifically stated I wasn't going to penalize Jordan for win he didn't win. Jordan didn't win his whole career like Russell did. Maybe if he'd started a little sooner, the analysis could have began earlier.

Right, because it's Jordan's fault for not having an MVP teammate and arguably the GOAT coach/GM his first year in the league.... :facepalm


Try reading next time.

Now, now, no need to get pissy.

[ThaRegul8r]

Magic never beat a team featuring Moses Malone the same year he won a title, though. Same with Hakeem Olajuwon and Michael Jordan. Also, he only beat Clyde one year when he won a championship, but it was in 1985. If you're confident that Michael's competition was inferior, then you should feel no need to post false information to make Magic's resume look better than it is.

Also, why did you only list Isiah once when the Bulls faced the Pistons four times from 1988 to 1991? If you're also listing times that they didn't win, then those matchups should count, as well.


Now, let's take a look at Jordan. As we all know, Jordan won his first NBA title in 1991, and his last NBA title in 1998. I will not penalize him for the years he didn't win. What I'm interested in is who his competition was when he started winning.

Jordan didn't start winning until '91. So '88 to '90 aren't held against him. '91 is when the clock starts ticking, because that's when the Bulls became legitimate championship contenders.

Bird played in the Eastern Conference Finals his rookie season. It wasn't counted because I explicitly stated that analysis would start the year they first won an NBA title (which shows they have everything they needed to win) and continues for as long as they remain legitimate contenders for an NBA title. (Hence why 1991 as counted for Magic, and 1988 for Bird.) I used the same criteria for every player analyzed.

[Alhazred]

Jordan didn't start winning until '91. So '88 to '90 aren't held against him. '91 is when the clock starts ticking, because that's when the Bulls became legitimate championship contenders.

Bird played in the Eastern Conference Finals his rookie season. It wasn't counted because I explicitly stated that analysis would start the year they first won an NBA title (which shows they have everything they needed to win) and continues for as long as they remain legitimate contenders for an NBA title. (Hence why 1991 as counted for Magic, and 1988 for Bird.) I used the same criteria for every player analyzed.

You seem to have some rather inconsistent rules. You won't include the additional three matchups Jordan had against the Pistons despite the fact that he did eventually beat them on the way to a championship due to the fact that he hadn't won one before, but include Moses Malone's and Magic's matchups despite Magic never beating a team featuring Moses Malone on the way to a championship? :wtf: I thought the point was that you had to actually beat them in order for them to count? :confusedshrug: Please tell me when Magic ever beat teams featuring Hakeem, Moses and Michael the same year he won a title and I'll shut up.

[JustinJDW]

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2004/writers/jack_mccallum/10/27/defense.vogue/p1_jordan2_getty.jpg

[Round Mound]

Charles Barkley delivered this vs Jordan elbow injured and all after game 2 in the 1993 Finals

27.6 PPG (26.3 PPG on 49.1% Two-Point FG)
13.0 RPG
5.5 APG

That is closer to probably the best player he played against in a finals series.

They had major battles. Barkley and Jordan always grew when they played against each other. They where friends after the game but they battled and talked trash all day when they faced each other

[Roundball_Rock]

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]Now, let's take a look at Jordan. As we all know, Jordan won his first NBA title in 1991, and his last NBA title in 1998. I will not penalize him for the years he didn't win. What I'm interested in is who his competition was when he started winning. Since Russell starting winning from Year One, his entire career was looked at. Since Jordan didn't start winning until his seventh year, that's when we'll begin our analysis.

One poster said:



Here, we can immediately spot that Jordan did not face Bird the years he won NBA titles. The question I asked was who were Jordan's rivals he had to beat to win titles. Jordan did not start winning titles until 1991. And Kobe Bryant didn't even play in the NBA until 1996-97, which was the next-to-last of Jordan's titles, and the Lakers did not make the Finals against the Bulls. Here is an example of someone not presenting the FACTS of what actually happened during Jordan's title years, and is trying to make Jordan's r

[atljonesbro]

He honestly didn't really have any rivals. Very weak era for wing players.

[dreamwarrior]

I wouldnt call bird/magic his rivals, because they were out of their prime (individual-team) years and also i dont know why Kobe is on the list because he was not on the level he has been on for the last ten years, when MJ was still on top. And i dont think that Reggie is a rival enough for players in the GOAT discussion. I would also like to add Ewing and his Knicks to the rival list.
Magic and Bird started putting up career high ppg AFTER Jordan came into the league. Back then Jordan was compared to Magic and Bird, arguing which of the 3 was the best player in the NBA and that was before he won his 1st ring. As far as physical talent, scoring ability and slam dunks Michael's rival at the time was Dominique Wilkins. In the popularity contest it was Jordan vs Barkley.

[Roundball_Rock]

He honestly didn't really have any rivals. Very weak era for wing players.

Especially at SG. There were several very good PG's: Stockton, Penny, KJ, Price, Hardaway, Strickland, Kidd to name a few but at SG the only other superstar was Drexler and the only other SG's that were all-NBA second/third team caliber were Richmond (who spent his prime on garbage teams), Dumars, and Miller. At SF the best player of that era, who also was the second best wing player of that generation, happened to be MJ's teammate.

Why does this matter? MJ fans often point out that he was never outplayed by his direct opponent as one can argue with some other top 10 players. Still, other than Drexler for one series when did MJ face legitimate competition at SG? Miller and Dumars were not on his level. That match up is comparable to Kobe facing Ray Allen in the Finals.

[juju151111]

Mm never had any rivals. He just dominated

[Soundwave]

Broken knees, old-man 40-year-old Jordan played alongside prime Kobe/T-Mac/Iverson/Carter etc. (probably the most loaded era for wing players) and more than held his own on a pretty crap Wizards squad.

If he could put up 20+ ppg in that situation, I don't really think there's much doubt in my mind a 27-33 year old MJ would be the same ol' 29-32 ppg player.

MJ also played in a more physical era where centers actually guarded the paint.

Guys don't have to deal with Ewing, Mutombo, Shaq, DRob, Hakeem, Zo, Lambieer, etc. in the paint anymore.

[houston]

He honestly didn't really have any rivals. Very weak era for wing players.


co sign but his rivalry clearly was the Pistons though.

[BIZARRO]

Elliot Kalb (2004) Who's Better, Who's Best in Basketball?

1. Shaq
2. Wilt
3. Jordan
4. Russell
5. Kareem
6. Bird
7. Magic
8. Oscar
9. Duncan
10. Cousy
11. Pettit
12. West
13. Baylor
14. Moses Malone
15. Dr. J
16. Hakeem
17. Karl Malone
18. Kobe
19. Mikan
20. Robinson
21. Barkley
22. Barry
23. Dolph Schayes
24. Havlicek
25. Isiah


Why does this moron have any more validity than my shoe? Okay, Bob Cousy was better than Kobe. What an expert. :facepalm


Just complete and utter nonsense.

[And1AllDay]

Mike had losing records to Larry Legend and Isaih Thomas :eek: :(

[FKAri]

He had many rivals. He went at them relentlessly and they had epic contests. Unfortunately, Michael usually came up short. But that's to be expected when you go up against MGM, Bellagio, and Wynn.

[3ball]

Mike had losing records to Larry Legend and Isaih Thomas :eek: :(
But that's it though

Lebron has losing records to everyone

[Sportal]

No respect for the 90s Knicks, huh?

Who guarded Jordan on those Knicks teams? 6foot3inches John Starks?

[AussieSteve]

His greatest rival should have been Barkley, who was the clear cut next best player in the league during Jordan's peak.

I think 99% of people would have expected a repeat bulls - suns final in 94, but Jordan retired... And then Barkley hurt his back anyway.

Unfortunately we only got 1 season when both were in their primes on good enough teams to compete for a championship. And even then chuck wasn't quite at his peak with an injury on his shooting elbow.

[LostCause]

But that's it though

Lebron has losing records to everyone

Got em :roll:

[SamuraiSWISH]

Individually? Ultimately no one. That’s why he retired the first time out of boredom.

[SpaceJam2]

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]Individually? Ultimately no one. That

[SpaceJam2]

But that's it though

Lebron has losing records to everyone

So to the only two guys that mattered during his era :lol

But he beat up Payton and Drexler and Hornacek :lol

[AirBonner]

A white guy who couldn

[SpaceJam2]

[QUOTE=AirBonner]A white guy who couldn

[diamenz]

this forum sure has gone to absolute shit since the op. i started off reading the first couple of pages before i realized this was an ancient thread. fast forward to the last two pages and i'm back in the shit show that is insidehoops. apparently all of the stans and trolls have driven all of the quality posters away. i don't blame the trolls and stans though - i put the blame on the folk that let them run wild.

[3ball]

So to the only two guys that mattered during his era :lol


Better than losing to everybody like bron





But he beat up Payton and Drexler and Hornacek :lol


And Magic

And Payton/Drexler/Malone > Terry, Pierce and Dwight

[SpaceJam2]

Better than losing to everybody like bron



And Magic

And Payton/Drexler/Malone > Terry, Pierce and Dwight

Imagine your strongest rival is a 6'2 guard who is holding you to 27 on 41% and never made it out of the second round again after the Finals meeting AND Shawn ****ing Kemp outplays you but you still win.

I wonder why :confusedshrug:

[AussieSteve]

Its not that the calibre of stars was lower in the 90s (at least early 90s, late 90s was a low point for star talent). The 90s was just a decade with a lot of 1 star teams. Different from the 80s and post 2000, when we have had a few teams with two and three All-NBA level players.

Think about the best players of the 90s...

Barkley - trash team during his best years in Philly.
Hakeem - trash team for most of his career
Robinson - trash team during his prime

These guys were rarely able to make deep playoff runs to face Jordan in finals or conference finals because they were all one-man shows. Give any of them a hof guard (say drexler or stockton) and they would have had epic rivalries with the bulls in the early 90s.

The only teams in the 90s who had two All-NBA level players and decent depth for an extended period were the bulls and jazz.

[TheCorporation]

https://i.postimg.cc/9fwk6R53/Aaajjj1554481851877.jpg

[Big164]

Ummmm


Shaq
https://images.solecollector.com/complex/image/upload/yos2t0fj0xm5mtldbqm8.jpg