Why is Kobe not top 10 alltime?

[zay_24]

Honestly, i have not seen ONE good argument as to why kobe is NOT top 10 alltime.

Someone who disagrees with Kobe being top 10 alltime please come in here and tell me why.

[Ruh-Roh]

Honestly, i have not seen ONE good argument as to why kobe is NOT top 10 alltime.

Someone who disagrees with Kobe being top 10 alltime please come in here and tell me why.

I don't necessarily disagree with it, but the biggest argument would be he hasn't won as "the man" enough yet.

[ShaqAttack3234]

The vast majority, including myself have Kobe in the top 10.

[jlauber]

The vast majority, including myself have Kobe in the top 10.
:cheers:

[Rose]

I think he's top 10.

[FCN]

He is close now, but I still don't think he is quite there. There are too many greats from past generations who IMO he has not yet surpassed. No slight against him, and he is as I said very close.

[triangleoffense]

He is.. arguably top5, it's hard to find 7-8 players that are better than him.

My top10 again

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Kobe
7. Duncan
8. Hakeem
9. Shaq
10. Oscar

[FCN]

He is.. arguably top5, it's hard to find 7-8 players that are better than him.

My top10 again

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Kobe
7. Duncan
8. Hakeem
9. Shaq
10. Oscar


Wilt is not top-ten?

[jlauber]

He is.. arguably top5, it's hard to find 7-8 players that are better than him.

My top10 again

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Kobe
7. Duncan
8. Hakeem
9. Shaq
10. Oscar

NO WILT?????

[jstern]

I think most have him around 10. Maybe some say no, because many Kobe fans have him as number 1, ahead of Jordan, and they get annoyed and don't even want Kobe at number 10.

[Poochymama]

I don't necessarily disagree with it, but the biggest argument would be he hasn't won as "the man" enough yet.


This, though I don't agree with it.

Kobe has 2 championships as the man with career averages of

25.3/5.3/4.7/1.5/.6 on 46%

IMO, that easily warrants a top 10 position, but alas, some people have very different views on things.

I think 5-9 is a reasonable ranking for Kobe(I have him at 7). He could go up another few spots if he wins a few more rings and ups his stats by 10% or so across the board.

[triangleoffense]

NO WILT?????

lol that was off the top of my head..

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Wilt
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Kobe
8. Duncan
9. Hakeem
10. Shaq

happy?

A fair estimate puts kobe at #7, a conservative estimate puts him in the top10.

[Poochymama]

He is.. arguably top5, it's hard to find 7-8 players that are better than him.

My top10 again

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Kobe
7. Duncan
8. Hakeem
9. Shaq
10. Oscar


No Wilt???

[chips93]

i dislike almost everything about kobe, but id definetly consider him top 10, probably 3rd best guard ever

[jlauber]

This, though I don't agree with it.

Kobe has 2 championships as the man with career averages of

25.3/5.3/4.7/1.5/.6 on 46%

IMO, that easily warrants a top 10 position, but alas, some people have very different views on things.

I think 5-9 is a reasonable ranking for Kobe(I have him at 7). He could go up another few spots if he wins a few more rings and ups his stats by 10% or so across the board.

Solid post. I have Kobe at anywhere between 8-10 (depending on where to put Bird and Olajuwon)...but more than likely he will finish higher...perhaps much higher.

[Ruh-Roh]

This, though I don't agree with it.

Kobe has 2 championships as the man with career averages of

25.3/5.3/4.7/1.5/.6 on 46%

IMO, that easily warrants a top 10 position, but alas, some people have very different views on things.

I think 5-9 is a reasonable ranking for Kobe(I have him at 7). He could go up another few spots if he wins a few more rings and ups his stats by 10% or so across the board.

Don't get me wrong, he's in my top 10. But to answer the OP's question, that has been the biggest knock on him in ISH and most other places you find criticisms.

[jlauber]

lol that was off the top of my head..

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Wilt
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Kobe
8. Duncan
9. Hakeem
10. Shaq

happy?

A fair estimate puts kobe at #7, a conservative estimate puts him in the top10.

I would disagree with a few positions, but overall, as good a list as any.

[Rose]

Solid post. I have Kobe at anywhere between 8-10 (depending on where to put Bird and Olajuwon)...but more than likely he will finish higher...perhaps much higher.
I agree with this entirely. He almost certainly gets one more ring. Which gives him three as the man, and two as a key cog, and potentially the best number two guy ever. and a ring where they probably would have won it anyways. If he beats the Heat, I think ALOT of people would boost him up. I know I'm going to boost him up. IMO he needs 8 rings to go down as the best. And that's his goal anyways. So we will see.

[zay_24]

Here's a list of people in most top 10 list that kobe easily ranks higher than ALREADY

Bird
Hakeem
West
Duncan

soon to be

Shaq
Wilt

[Mr Clutch Melo]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Wilt
5. Bird
6. Magic
7. Duncan
8. Shaq/Hakeem
9. Hakeem/ Shaq
10. Kobe

I still dont understand why people put Magic over BIRD :facepalm

[zay_24]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Wilt
5. Bird
6. Magic
7. Duncan
8. Shaq/Hakeem
9. Hakeem/ Shaq
10. Kobe

I still dont understand why people put Magic over BIRD :facepalm
probably the same reason why i cant understand you putting hakeem and duncan over kobe

[Ruh-Roh]

I would disagree with a few positions, but overall, as good a list as any.

I'd put Shaq over Hakeem, Wilt under Magic, drop Bird a spot or two, probably raise Duncan to just be over Kobe, but Kobe could easily move up the ladder this year alone.

[XxNemesis29xX]

Yes, Kobe's got the stats, the rings, 2 as The Man, gamer-winners and clutch ability to close out games, and many things that aren't measured by numbers: killer instinct, leadership, turning his team mates into better players (Gasol prime example).

Also, he can activate GOD-MODE... which should push him up 1 slot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuSpY4Rfrm8

[jlauber]

I'd put Shaq over Hakeem, Wilt under Magic, drop Bird a spot or two, probably raise Duncan to just be over Kobe, but Kobe could easily move up the ladder this year alone.

No argument from me...

:cheers:

[Mr Clutch Melo]

bla bla bla

Look at 94 Rockets and 03 Spurs . Kobe has never carried a team like Hakeem and Duncan.

Get Kobe dick out of your mouth, Kobe might be the WORST finals-performer among the top-10 too

[New York Knicks]

Look at 94 Rockets and 03 Spurs . Kobe has never carried a team like Hakeem and Duncan.

Get Kobe dick out of your mouth, Kobe might be the WORST finals-performer among the top-10 too
? He definitely is.

[zay_24]

Look at 94 Rockets and 03 Spurs . Kobe has never carried a team like Hakeem and Duncan.

Get Kobe dick out of your mouth

hmm,

Final MVPS- duncan, kobe & hakeem= tied

MVP-Duncan, Kobe & hakeem= tied

Rings- Kobe, duncan, hakeem

Finals appearances- kobe, Duncan, Hakeem
Duncan has never defeated a team in the finals like the modern day celtics. So yea...

Scoring titles- Kobe 2, hakeem nd duncan 0
Rebound titles- Hakeem 2- kobe and duncan 0
Kobe is a better scorer and passer than both
Kobe is a better winner than both

81 point games- kobe 1, duncan and hakeem 0

who broke the record for most 3's made in a game?:violin:

Who gave the spurs the most trouble in the early 2000s?:violin:

[chazzy]

At this point, I feel like the top 10 is almost unanimous.. but the order varies depending on what you value more when comparing players.

[Big#50]

MJ/KAJ
Duncan/Shaq
Bird
Hakeem
Kobe
Magic
Wilt
Russell
I usually switch positions but the players always remain the same.

[New York Knicks]

hmm,

Final MVPS- duncan, kobe & hakeem= tied

MVP-Duncan, Kobe & hakeem= tied

Rings- Kobe, duncan, hakeem

Finals appearances- kobe, Duncan, Hakeem
Duncan has never defeated a team in the finals like the modern day celtics. So yea...

Scoring titles- Kobe 2, hakeem nd duncan 0
Rebound titles- Hakeem 2- kobe and duncan 0
Kobe is a better scorer and passer than both
Kobe is a better winner than both

81 point games- kobe 1, duncan and hakeem 0

who broke the record for most 3's made in a game?:violin:

Who gave the spurs the most trouble in the early 2000s?:violin:
PISTONS? The same exact team nearly swept an LA team with Payton, Kobe, Malone, and Shaq?

[zay_24]

PISTONS? The same exact team nearly swept an LA team with Payton, Kobe, Malone, and Shaq?

The same Lakers who had injury problems?

The same lakers who weren't any where near 100%

And dont try it, the 2010 celtics>>05 pistons :lol

Pistons were a known defensive powerhouse, but the celtics were not only better defensively, but wayyyy better offensively as well.

Knock it off kid

[Ruh-Roh]

PISTONS? The same exact team nearly swept an LA team with Payton, Kobe, Malone, and Shaq?

^^Pay the man. :cheers:

[Poochymama]

PISTONS? The same exact team nearly swept an LA team with Payton, Kobe, Malone, and Shaq?

This

[New York Knicks]

The same Lakers who had injury problems?

The same lakers who weren't any where near 100%

And dont try it, the 2010 celtics>>05 pistons :lol

Pistons were a known defensive powerhouse, but the celtics were not only better defensively, but wayyyy better offensively as well.

Knock it off kid
And the excuses start rolling. Kobe fans lol. Constantly revising history to fit their agenda.

And BTW, the Pistons were ranked 3rd defensively that year. The Celtics were ranked 5th.

[Showtime]

Honestly, i have not seen ONE good argument as to why kobe is NOT top 10 alltime.

Someone who disagrees with Kobe being top 10 alltime please come in here and tell me why.
The best argument there is is that 10 other players have done as much or more, or played the game as a level as high or better.

[Big#50]

The same Lakers who had injury problems?

The same lakers who weren't any where near 100%

And dont try it, the 2010 celtics>>05 pistons :lol

Pistons were a known defensive powerhouse, but the celtics were not only better defensively, but wayyyy better offensively as well.

Knock it off kid
Which piece of sht Kobe troll got banned recently?

[zay_24]

And the excuses start rolling. Kobe fans lol. Constantly revising history to fit their agenda.

And BTW, the Pistons were ranked 3rd defensively that year. The Celtics were ranked 5th.

So, im making an excuse by saying the lakers werent at 100%

[New York Knicks]

The best argument there is is that 10 other players have done as much or more, or played the game as a level as high or better.
Accolade-wise, Kobe has a Top 10 r

[Bring-Your-Js]

Kobe's Playoff Numbers as 'The Man':

2006: 27.9 ppg/6.3 rpg/5.1 apg/50%
2007: 32.8 ppg/5.2 rpg/4.1 apg/46%
2008: 30.1 ppg/5.7 rpg/5.5 apg/48%
2009: 30.2 ppg/5.3 rpg/5.1 apg/46%
2010: 29.2 ppg/6.0 rpg/5.5 apg/46%

:pimp:

[New York Knicks]

So, im making an excuse by saying the lakers werent at 100%
You're making an excuse on why the Lakers lost. Shaq, Kobe, and Payton should be enough to beat anyone. Shaq shot 60% that series from the field. Kobe? 38%.

[Mr Clutch Melo]

hmm,

Final MVPS- duncan, kobe & hakeem= tied

MVP-Duncan, Kobe & hakeem= tied

Rings- Kobe, duncan, hakeem

Finals appearances- kobe, Duncan, Hakeem
Duncan has never defeated a team in the finals like the modern day celtics. So yea...

Scoring titles- Kobe 2, hakeem nd duncan 0
Rebound titles- Hakeem 2- kobe and duncan 0
Kobe is a better scorer and passer than both
Kobe is a better winner than both

81 point games- kobe 1, duncan and hakeem 0

who broke the record for most 3's made in a game?:violin:

Who gave the spurs the most trouble in the early 2000s?:violin:

So you think Kobe>>>>Russell,Jordan,Kareem, Bird, Shaq :roll: ? You bring up the 81 point game:oldlol:

Kobe is not a better passer than Hakeem and Duncan. Hakeem/Duncan were both ELITE passers at their posistion, something Kobe has never been.

Shaq gave the Spurs most trouble in the early 2000s, Kobe just riding Shaqs greatness and dominance.

Kobe is the WORST finals performer of the top-10, do I need to even bring up 2004 ? :lol Or 2008 ? Even this years finals where Kobe shot brick after brick.

[Batz]

[QUOTE=New York Knicks]Accolade-wise, Kobe has a Top 10 r

[triangleoffense]

And now this has become a troll thread... I tried to steer in the other direction, honest I did!

[zay_24]

So you think Kobe>>>>Russell,Jordan,Kareem, Bird, Shaq :roll: ? You bring up the 81 point game:oldlol:

Kobe is not a better passer than Hakeem and Duncan. Hakeem/Duncan were both ELITE passers at their posistion, something Kobe has never been.

Shaq gave the Spurs most trouble in the early 2000s, Kobe just riding Shaqs greatness and dominance.

Kobe is the WORST finals performer of the top-10, do I need to even bring up 2004 ? :lol Or 2008 ? Even this years finals where Kobe shot brick after brick.
lol, i dont respond to people who try to flip arguments, when you respond to me you respond to the WHOLE post, not 1 line lol, you fail

[New York Knicks]

35/5/5 in the best defensive era statistacally and on a crap ass team is average? Just stop and go actually try to be a knicks fan because wow...
Take your own advice and stay out of Kobe threads then?

And definitely not the best defensive era if they had to modify the rules to help perimeter players and Kobe still couldn't manage to even shoot above his career average. He averaged 10+ FTA/gm despite taking nearly 80% of his FGs from the perimeter. Try again.

[zay_24]

How many players have won a scoring title and defensive first team in the same year? Not to mention lead a team with kwame brown and smush to the playoffs?

outscoring the 06 MAVS by himself in 3 quarters

:lol

[whatever666]

Why?

1. M.Jordan
2. B.Russell
3. W.Chamberlain
4. K.A.Jabbar
5. M.Johnson
6. L.Bird
7. O. Robertson
8. J. West
9. J. Havlicek
10. S.Oneal
11. T.Duncan
12. Hakeem Olajuwon
13. Julius Erving
14. Moses Malone
15. Bob Cousy / Elgin Baylor / Karl Malone / Charles Barkley / Kobe Bryant.

Thats why.............. only idiots (im sorry) and the young teenage generation of today havent researched the history and its players enough to know WHY.... You could ARGUABLY AND EXTREMLY DEBATABLY come to agreements with some people to Kobe being ranked #10.... but any further up is just stupid....

[New York Knicks]

How many players have won a scoring title and defensive first team in the same year? Not to mention lead a team with kwame brown and smush to the playoffs?

outscoring the 06 MAVS by himself in 3 quarters

:lol
Everyone that watched basketball then knew Kobe didn't deserve any of his Defensive Team selections. Even Tex Winter said so. And Kwame and Smush did their jobs in the system. Nothing more was expected. If Kobe didn't want that kind of team, maybe he should've learned to co-exist with Shaq.

And the same Mavs team that Wade raped in the Finals by himself?

[1987_Lakers]

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Wilt
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Hakeem

If Kobe wins another title next year while playing at elite level I might consider moving him ahead of Shaq & Duncan.

[whatever666]

How many players have won a scoring title and defensive first team in the same year? Not to mention lead a team with kwame brown and smush to the playoffs?

outscoring the 06 MAVS by himself in 3 quarters

:lol

When you put it that way, then Lebron should be Top 10 to....

[zay_24]

Why?

1. M.Jordan
2. B.Russell
3. W.Chamberlain
4. K.A.Jabbar
5. M.Johnson
6. L.Bird
7. O. Robertson
8. J. West
9. J. Havlicek
10. S.Oneal
11. T.Duncan
12. Hakeem Olajuwon
13. Julius Erving
14. Moses Malone
15. Bob Cousy / Elgin Baylor / Karl Malone / Charles Barkley / Kobe Bryant.




:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Showtime]

[QUOTE=New York Knicks]Accolade-wise, Kobe has a Top 10 r

[whatever666]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

And here this first fine example of a younger generation (or idiot, sorry) revealin himself and disrespecting the game itself.... hi there, nice of you to show up... :applause:

[zay_24]

When you put it that way, then Lebron should be Top 10 to....

Kobe had the best scoring season in the past 20 years, as well as making all defensive first team.

:applause:

[Showtime]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Every argument in favor of Kobe can be applied to Hondo. Hondo has the paper resume, he has the all around play, he has the winning (moreso than Kobe), and he's lead his team to victory without Russell.

[DixieNourmous]

You're making an excuse on why the Lakers lost. Shaq, Kobe, and Payton should be enough to beat anyone. Shaq shot 60% that series from the field. Kobe? 38%.

Kinda sounds like the 3 stooges Miami fans are selling as a dynasty. Just shows,, chemistry wasn`t there for the Lakers that year, Miami may have the same problems.

Just sayin / not hatin

[New York Knicks]

Every argument in favor of Kobe can be applied to Hondo. Hondo has the paper resume, he has the all around play, he has the winning (moreso than Kobe), and he's lead his team to victory without Russell.
He's actually the perfect comparison for Kobe. Very similar career paths.

[zay_24]

And here this first fine example of a younger generation (or idiot, sorry) revealint himself.... hi there, nice of you to show up... :applause:

Please explain to me how west, robertson, malone(both) ,Havlicek and dr. j rank above kobe

[Showtime]

Kobe had the best scoring season in the past 20 years, as well as making all defensive first team.

:applause:
Everybody old enough to have watched his career knows Kobe deserves about half the all-defensive honors, and in reality should have been second or third team (of that) for many of those.

[whatever666]

Every argument in favor of Kobe can be applied to Hondo. Hondo has the paper resume, he has the all around play, he has the winning (moreso than Kobe), and he's lead his team to victory without Russell.

Dont tell him that.... nobody is better than Kobe... :lol

[Poochymama]

Everybody old enough to have watched his career knows Kobe deserves about half the all-defensive honors, and in reality should have been second or third team (of that) for many of those.

This, I think Kobe deserves maybe 2 of the ones he got. He was actually a pretty good defender when he was younger, and when he tried now days, but for some reason, he just doesn't try very often.

[Showtime]

Kobe's Playoff Numbers as 'The Man':

2006: 27.9 ppg/6.3 rpg/5.1 apg/50%
2007: 32.8 ppg/5.2 rpg/4.1 apg/46%
2008: 30.1 ppg/5.7 rpg/5.5 apg/48%
2009: 30.2 ppg/5.3 rpg/5.1 apg/46%
2010: 29.2 ppg/6.0 rpg/5.5 apg/46%

:pimp:
What are his finals numbers compared to the first 3 rounds?

[Mr Clutch Melo]

lol, i dont respond to people who try to flip arguments, when you respond to me you respond to the WHOLE post, not 1 line lol, you fail

I did respond to the whole post, I just marked the worst argument I've ever seen.

Get Kobes dick out of your mouth, then we can discuss:facepalm

[Showtime]

This, I think Kobe deserves maybe 2 of the ones he got. He was actually a pretty good defender when he was younger, and when he tried now days, but for some reason, he just doesn't try very often.
He was a great defender when he was younger, but the more and more he focused on scoring, the less defensive effort he put in. And it's not just about effort, but he hardly ever guarded anybody. His teammates usually had the tougher assignments unless it was a key possession, and then we would see Kobe's defense at max effort for a few minutes at most.

[Round Mound]

Kobe is not a top 10 all time player his per, eff and +/- does not indicate he was as dominant as other players

[JM720]

Most have him top 10...

:facepalm to those that dont.

[zay_24]

Kobe is not a top 10 all time player his per, eff and +/- does not indicate he was as dominant as other players


Russels PER is 85 alltime :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Raider007]

Kobe is not a top 10 all time player his per, eff and +/- does not indicate he was as dominant as other players

Hollinger? :rolleyes:

[zay_24]

so if we're going by per, kobe is higher than:

Russel
Bird
Oscar
Baylor
Moses
Dr. J
Cousy

all players who have been rated higher than kobe in this thread :roll:

[Jacks3]

Everybody old enough to have watched his career knows Kobe deserves about half the all-defensive honors, and in reality should have been second or third team (of that) for many of those.
:oldlol:

[Calabis]

The best argument there is is that 10 other players have done as much or more, or played the game as a level as high or better.

I totally agree, I don't have him in my top 10 yet, I think after his career is finished he will be top 8-10 on my list

In 14 seasons, he has 2 scoring titles, but yet he's the greatest scorer ever according to some

In 14 seasons, 1 MVP award(which is not a tell all, but as dominant as some make him out to be, he should have more)

I saw someone post his numbers career numbers, yet they call a guy who put up

25.7pts, 9.5ast, 7.5reb, 1.1stl, 48.5%FG

overrated and say he's not top 10 worthy, although West, Barry and many others said he was the best player they faced during their time......its weird to me....:confusedshrug:

His finals performances have been nothing special, he has failed to lead any chip team in eff.

[Jacks3]

Notice how most unbiased poster have him in the top 10.

[Jacks3]

This, I think Kobe deserves maybe 2 of the ones he got. .
:roll:

[Calabis]

He was a great defender when he was younger, but the more and more he focused on scoring, the less defensive effort he put in. And it's not just about effort, but he hardly ever guarded anybody. His teammates usually had the tougher assignments unless it was a key possession, and then we would see Kobe's defense at max effort for a few minutes at most.
Even Tex Winter talked about this, but hey what the hell does he know, Kobefans on ISH are the only ones who know the truth

[necya]

Most have him top 10...

:facepalm to those that dont.

i really love this "argument" as ISH was known for his 17years old nba analists

[zay_24]

i really love this "argument" as ISH was known for his 17years old nba analists
grammar fail:lol

[Jacks3]

lol @ idiots bringing up Coach Tex Winter's quote from three years ago, but totally ignoring the 30 NBA Head Coaches who vote him into the All-NBA 1st Team Defense Teams every year. :oldlol:

[Kobe8]

He is.. arguably top5, it's hard to find 7-8 players that are better than him.

My top10 again

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Kobe
7. Duncan
8. Hakeem
9. Shaq
10. Oscar


Screw Oscar Robertson , Barely knew that nigguh... Replace him with Wilt

[Calabis]

lol @ idiots bringing up Coach Tex Winter's quote from three years ago, but totally ignoring the 30 NBA Head Coaches who vote him into the All-NBA 1st Team Defense Teams every year. :oldlol:

Tex Winter was a coach for the Lakers and talked about his conservative approach on defense, some of those 30 coaches only seen him 1 to 2 times a year......Kobe was a beast defender back in his younger days and at times will actually do it every blue moon today, but he rarely guards an offensive threat and takes a one man sagging zone approach.

Jordan did the same shit during his last two seasons

[Showtime]

Russels PER is 85 alltime :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
PER formula includes blocks, steals, and turnovers, which were not recorded in Russell's era dumbass.

[zay_24]

PER formula includes blocks, steals, and turnovers, which were not recorded in Russell's era dumbass.
kobe is also higher than bird :lol

[Showtime]

kobe is also higher than bird :lol
So? I didn't say PER was any definitive argument. I was merely pointing out yet another flaw in it's calculations, as well as any point you were attempting to bring out regarding Russell's impact using his PER stat.

[Jacks3]

Um, those coaches do a lot more than just see him in live games. They also watch hours and hours of film and do a ton of scouting. So yeah, the fact that he's made 1st Team every year is telling. lol @ making it year after year on reputation. And coach Winter made those statements three years ago.
:facepalm :rolleyes:

[Calabis]

kobe is also higher than bird :lol

LOL....Bird had a far greater impact on basketball than Kobe ever has.....most people take that into account when judging basketball players...what was his impact on the game.

[Jacks3]

:roll:

[Big#50]

Kobe had the best scoring season in the past 20 years, as well as making all defensive first team.

:applause:
Every non fanboy knows that selection was a joke.

[Calabis]

Um, those coaches do a lot more than just see him in live games. They also watch hours and hours of film and do a ton of scouting. So yeah, the fact that he's made 1st Team every year is telling. lol @ making it year after year on reputation. And coach Winter made those statements three years ago.
:facepalm :rolleyes:

LMAO!!! Your funny dude, when Hakeem won his DPOY award, all but one coach voted for Jordan as the best defender in the league...so who cares what the coaches think, many times its out of respect....Kobe's not a better defender than Wade the last two seasons nor was he better than Raja Bell, but guess what his rep gives him the edge

And three years ago this dude is still getting voted to first team defense...lmao

[jlauber]

Havlicek is an interesting...

He has eight rings, and two of them without Russell. And some would argue that he was at least as valuable as Russell near the end of Russell's career. Still, he played 16 seasons, in smaller leagues, and was only in the top-10 in MVP balloting in five seasons, with a HIGH of 4th. Kobe has played for 14 seasons, and has been in the top-10 NINE times, and the top-3 FIVE times, and, of course, he has won it once.

And Havlicek, as well as he played in the regular seasons, and post-seasons, just cannot equal Kobe's numbers in either.

I would definitely have no problem with Hondo in the top-15, but I see no case over Kobe.

[Desperado]

This, though I don't agree with it.

Kobe has 2 championships as the man with career averages of

25.3/5.3/4.7/1.5/.6 on 46%

IMO, that easily warrants a top 10 position, but alas, some people have very different views on things.

I think 5-9 is a reasonable ranking for Kobe(I have him at 7). He could go up another few spots if he wins a few more rings and ups his stats by 10% or so across the board.


I agree 5-9 is rational but as far as ''2 rings as the man'' let's not forget he has 2 other championships as arguably the 2nd best player in the league.

You can't ignore his production for his first 3 championships.

2000: 21/5/4

2001: 29/7/6

2002: 27/6/5

[Showtime]

Every non fanboy knows that selection was a joke.
"But the coaches DECIDE!"

Yeah, and how many coaches are fired every year?

How many coaches do a poor job every year?

Why do we continually rip apart these guys (with the exception of the elite), and yet treat their words as gospel when it comes to awards? Does anybody really take the word of Nelly's opinion on defense over their own opinion?

[NY-Knicks]

Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Kobe Bryant
Hakeem Olajuwon

It might not be a good list it's just my opinion. At this point I have Kobe behind Shaq and Duncan but there is no doubt in my mind that he will pass them someday. He just hasn't won enough titles as the number one option. If he has another couple of extraordinary seasons (first team all-nba etc.) and/or (multiple) championships he will pass these guys on my list and probably Magic and Bird as well. He passed Hakeem by winning the title and finals mvp this year imo. So Kobe is top 10 for me.

BTW, I am not some hater or immense Kobe fan, looking at this from a neutral perspective.

[Desperado]

LOL....Bird had a far greater impact on basketball than Kobe ever has.....most people take that into account when judging basketball players...what was his impact on the game.

Define ''impact'' and what it does it have to do with were a player ranks on the all-time list.

A case can be made for Bird over Kobe but IMO career and achievement wise they are pretty close.

[Jacks3]

What SG played better defense than Kobe in 06? Clowns. :roll:

15.7 Defensive PER (excellent, average PER is 15)
105 Defensive Rating (above-average)
:facepalm

[jlauber]

Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Kobe Bryant
Hakeem Olajuwon

It might not be a good list it's just my opinion. At this point I have Kobe behind Shaq and Duncan but there is no doubt in my mind that he will pass them someday. He just hasn't won enough titles as the number one option. If he has another couple of extraordinary seasons (first team all-nba etc.) and/or (multiple) championships he will pass these guys on my list and probably Magic and Bird as well. He passed Hakeem by winning the title and finals mvp this year imo. So Kobe is top 10 for me.

BTW, I am not some hater or immense Kobe fan, looking at this from a neutral perspective.

I don't always agree with you, but it is an EXCELLENT list. In fact, I feel pretty comfortable saying that most here will agree with the names on that list...although maybe not the order.

Very few of us will agree on a top-10 list, position-by-position, however.

[Desperado]

Hollinger? :rolleyes:

I haven't met one basketball fan in real life that cares about Hollinger's formulas.

Honestly only math geeks would care about those flawed bull sh*t equations.

[Jacks3]

LMAO!!! Your funny dude, when Hakeem won his DPOY award, all but one coach voted for Jordan as the best defender in the league...so who cares what the coaches think, many times its out of respect....Kobe's not a better defender than Wade the last two seasons nor was he better than Raja Bell, but guess what his rep gives him the edge

And three years ago this dude is still getting voted to first team defense...lmao
Yeah, who cares what the NBA Head Coaches, who spends hours and hours watching tape and scouting, think? :oldlol: And LOL @ Raja and Wade being better defenders than Kobe. You're delusional. LOL @ "Rep" getting a player All-Defensive Teams for 4 straight years. Do you realize how stupid you sound?:oldlol:

[NY-Knicks]

I don't always agree with you, but it is an EXCELLENT list. In fact, I feel pretty comfortable saying that most here will agree with the names on that list...although maybe not the order.

Very few of us will agree on a top-10 list, position-by-position, however.


Thanks man.

Yeah there can be a lot of switching done in this top 10 list. Some people think era difference is important, position played, dominance during the regular season, stats and mainly scoring, defense, awards, efficiency and winning. Many people believe Bird should be above Magic, top 5 and other think he should barely make the top 10. The O'Neal/Duncan/Bryant discussion also has a lot of options. And of course the Wilt/Russell/KAJ one.

[Bring-Your-Js]

Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Kobe Bryant
Hakeem Olajuwon

It might not be a good list it's just my opinion. At this point I have Kobe behind Shaq and Duncan but there is no doubt in my mind that he will pass them someday. He just hasn't won enough titles as the number one option. If he has another couple of extraordinary seasons (first team all-nba etc.) and/or (multiple) championships he will pass these guys on my list and probably Magic and Bird as well. He passed Hakeem by winning the title and finals mvp this year imo. So Kobe is top 10 for me.

BTW, I am not some hater or immense Kobe fan, looking at this from a neutral perspective.

And it was an outstanding post.

[Jacks3]

8 All-NBA 1st Team Defensive Teams
2 All-NBA 2nd Team Defensive Teams

DPOY Voting
2010 (12th)
2009 (7th)
2008 (5th)
2007 (24th)
2004 (10th)
2003 (8th)
2002 (3rd)
2001 (11th)
2000 (5th)

I guess the media and the coaches are wrong. :roll:

[Calabis]

Define ''impact'' and what it does it have to do with were a player ranks on the all-time list.

A case can be made for Bird over Kobe but IMO career and achievement wise they are pretty close.

Just the impact they had on the game, when Bird came in, the NBA was going downhill, he helped revive the game and made it popular with Magic, their rivalry has been unmatched...if you just want to base it on pure skill and wipe out everything certain players did for the game, Kobe is the most skilled player of all time, unfortunately most people take into account what players did for the NBA, as well as on court team accomplishments, individual awards, etc. I don't think Bird will be ranked ahead of Kobe, when Kobe is done, its not until a player is gone, that you can fully appreciate what they did for the game.

If we are just going to use on the court accomplishments, then how can Oscar be left out of the top 10, while avg a triple double his first five seasons.

[Desperado]

In 14 seasons, he has 2 scoring titles

Irrelevant. Iverson has 4 scoring titles, is he better than Magic who has none?


In 14 seasons, 1 MVP award

Eh....I don't much stock into MVP awards, as there biased and given out by the media. Shaq has 1 MVP in 18 seasons does that devalue him?



His finals performances have been nothing special

:rolleyes:

[Calabis]

Yeah, who cares what the NBA Head Coaches, who spends hours and hours watching tape and scouting, think? :oldlol: And LOL @ Raja and Wade being better defenders than Kobe. You're delusional. LOL @ "Rep" getting a player All-Defensive Teams for 4 straight years. Do you realize how stupid you sound?:oldlol:

All this shows is how far your head is up Kobe's ass. Its cool you like him as much as you do, but most of his fans, not fanatics, will agree he has won of rep, just like MJ his last two seasons. I'm a MJ guy, but hell even I know he wasn't better than Mookie Blaylock and Eddie Jones during his last two. When Kobe was young he was a monster defender, he no longer is that type of guy, sorry, but Wade has been better the last two seasons and Bell the year before.

[Jacks3]

Look at his elite defensive numbers from 2010.

What I put together below is a list of wing players with strong defensive reputations. I took the 4 wings from the NBA All-Defensive Teams and then added the next 6 top vote getters. For each player and each possession category (Isolation, Pick and Roll Ball Handler, Post-Up, Pick and Roll Man, Spot-Up, Off-Screen, Hand Off, and Overall) you can see the number of possessions they defended, the Points per Possession allowed, the FG% allowed, and the TO% they forced.

http://ilevy.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/brandon-rush-defense.jpg?w=380&h=2081

Beast.

[Bring-Your-Js]

8 All-NBA 1st Team Defensive Teams
2 All-NBA 2nd Team Defensive Teams

DPOY Voting
2010 (12th)
2009 (7th)
2008 (5th)
2007 (24th)
2004 (10th)
2003 (8th)
2002 (3rd)
2001 (11th)
2000 (5th)

I guess the media and the coaches are wrong. :roll:

Anything Kobe is requested or told he needs to do by fans on a forum that he actually does, is quickly dismissed. So what's the point? I'd rather stick to the facts and what it is, not what someone thinks it should be.

[Round Mound]

Russels PER is 85 alltime :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

He was never an offensive threat. But if you count his spg and bpg he would have been higher. He is not a top 10 player but he was great defender and rebounder. His passing is overrated he was totally stacked. Too easy to get assists in his teams.

Barkley is Top 10 All Time in EFF, PER and +/- yet everyone avoids that because he didn`t win a ring.

Stupid people. Impact is Impact. Efficiency is Efficiency.

[jlauber]

Thanks man.

Yeah there can be a lot of switching done in this top 10 list. Some people think era difference is important, position played, dominance during the regular season, stats and mainly scoring, defense, awards, efficiency and winning. Many people believe Bird should be above Magic, top 5 and other think he should barely make the top 10. The O'Neal/Duncan/Bryant discussion also has a lot of options. And of course the Wilt/Russell/KAJ one.

Incidently, I was going to rep you, but when I tried, it said that I have used too much of it, and that I would have to wait. I also tried to rep ShaqAttack, but it said that I have to spread my "rep" around first. BTW, I have NEVER "negatively" repped anyone here.

I know it is way off topic...but is anyone else here bothered by this "rep" system? I got a negative rep from a guy who obviously used two different accounts, and within a few minutes of each other...and of course, without him leaving a name, we have no way of knowing. Not only that, but ShaqAttack has said that someone gave out a negative rep, and signed it with HIS name.

So, PLEASE, whoever runs this place...can we get a better system in place?

[New York Knicks]

Irrelevant. Iverson has 4 scoring titles, is he better than Magic who has none?
Is Magic regarded as the greatest scorer? Or even a great one? Thought so.

How stupid are you? Kobe fans are being intentionally obtuse.

[Jacks3]

but Wade has been better the last two seasons and Bell the year before.
:roll: :roll: :roll: So I bring up evidence from coaches, media members, and stats and you have nothing but your ridiculous opinions. :roll:

[Calabis]

Irrelevant. Iverson has 4 scoring titles, is he better than Magic who has none?



Eh....I don't much stock into MVP awards, as there biased and given out by the media. Shaq has 1 MVP in 18 seasons does that devalue him?




:rolleyes:

Again thanks for erasing where I said I don't take MVP as a tell all, but the way you and the rest of the Homers talk about him, he should have 5, but he doesn't

As far as the scoring Iverson has 4, which makes him a better scorer than Kobe and he should hold the title of best scorer of his generation, not your hero

[NY-Knicks]

Incidently, I was going to rep you, but when I tried, it said that I have used too much of it, and that I would have to wait. I also tried to rep ShaqAttack, but it said that I have to spread my "rep" around first. BTW, I have NEVER "negatively" repped anyone here.

I know it is way off topic...but is anyone else here bothered by this "rep" system? I got a negative rep from a guy who obviously used two different accounts, and within a few minutes of each other...and of course, without him leaving a name, we have no way of knowing. Not only that, but ShaqAttack has said that someone gave out a negative rep, and signed it with HIS name.

So, PLEASE, whoever runs this place...can we get a better system in place?


Yep, you can get negative rep for no reason here. Gave you some positive ones tho.

[Desperado]

He was never an offensive threat. But if you count his spg and bpg he would have been higher. He is not a top 10 player but he was great defender and rebounder. His passing is overrated he was totally stacked. Too easy to get assists in his teams.

Barkley is Top 10 All Time in EFF, PER and +/- yet everyone avoids that because he didn`t win a ring.

Stupid people. Impact is Impact. Efficiency is Efficiency.

If you just say Russell wasn't an offensive threat and isn't top 10 based on that and some flawed advanced stats then I don't know what to tell you. If you base your opinion on Bill supposedly not being an offensive threat then you don't understand the 60's Celtics.


Do you ever even watch any games or do you just look at advanced stats and base your opinions off that. You can't ever argue situations so you just post a bunch of numbers...

[Jacks3]

http://ilevy.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/brandon-rush-defense.jpg?w=380&h=2081

[Bring-Your-Js]

8 All-NBA 1st Team Defensive Teams
2 All-NBA 2nd Team Defensive Teams

DPOY Voting
2010 (12th)
2009 (7th)
2008 (5th)
2007 (24th)
2004 (10th)
2003 (8th)
2002 (3rd)
2001 (11th)
2000 (5th)

I guess the media and the coaches are wrong. :roll:

Anything Kobe is requested or told he needs to do by fans on a forum that he actually does, is quickly dismissed. So what's the point? I'd rather stick to the facts and what it is, not what someone thinks it should be.

[Desperado]

Again thanks for erasing where I said I don't take MVP as a tell all, but the way you and the rest of the Homers talk about him, he should have 5, but he doesn't

As far as the scoring Iverson has 4, which makes him a better scorer than Kobe and he should hold the title of best scorer of his generation, not your hero

I never claimed Kobe should have won 5 MVPs. I do think he should have won another one though.


I don't put much stock into scoring titles either. Maybe a case can be made for Iverson as the best scorer of the past decade but I can easily make a strong case for Kobe as the best scorer without just using one minuscule thing like scoring titles.

[jlauber]

Yep, you can get negative rep for no reason here. Gave you some positive ones tho.

I appreciate it, but I wasn't looking for it. I just think when someone here makes a great post, that, if we have a "rep" system in place, we should be able to acknowledge it. To be honest, I don't read too many good ones here...and those that do, should at least get some kind of acknowledgement. I see no reason for "neg" reps, though. First of all, if a poster embarrasses another poster, more than likely he/she will retaliate with a "neg" rep. Secondly, if you don't agree with a post, either ignore it, or respond to it.

And the bottom line here...at least I would hope so anyway...is to get an education here. Most posts are opinions, but some, at least, are backed up very well with statistical analysis, or logical conclusions, or facts, or a historical perspective. I enjoy reading the educated one's, and every once in while, I read something that makes me think...and in some cases, it even changes my mind.

[Jacks3]

Yeah, Iverson is a better scorer if you completely ignore Kobe's HUGE advantage in efficiency. :oldlol:

[Bring-Your-Js]

Yeah, Iverson is a better scorer if you completely ignore Kobe's HUGE advantage in efficiency. :oldlol:

Iverson has led the league in FGA four times while actually leading in total points just once.

Kobe has led the league in FGA three times, leading the league in total points four times.

[KenneBell]

I have him at #9.

Still haven't seen any good reasons to why he shouldn't be top 10.

[Jacks3]

Yeah, Kobe is easily the better scorer. lol @ using scoring titles as the definitive measurement. :facepalm

[Bring-Your-Js]

Yeah, Kobe is easily the better scorer. lol @ using scoring titles as the definitive measurement. :facepalm

Even just game dominance.

Kobe has scored 60+ five times, Iverson once.

Kobe has scored 50+ 24 times, Iverson 12.

Kobe has scored 40+ 104 times, Iverson 77.

[G.O.A.T.]

Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Kobe Bryant
Hakeem Olajuwon


The fact that five of the people on this list were Lakers at one point or another in their careers shows how dominant the franchise is.

[Bring-Your-Js]

lol @ the only player in nba history to outscore a Team through 3 quarters since the advent of the shot clock not being even the best scorer of his generation. it's hardly a scott skiles 30 dime moment. Kobe's got HISTORIC all over his resume,

[BlackWhiteGreen]

The fact that five of the people on this list were Lakers at one point or another in their careers shows how dominant the franchise is.

17 is more than 16

Regardless, Kobe is top 10. However, because Jacks 3 is being such a little b*tch in this thread I might just say he isn't top 100 and never will be.

The arguments against him being in the top 10 (which I don't agree with all of):

Poor Finals performances (arguably only the most important player on 1 of the championship winning teams)

Inefficiency in general

The rape incident

General dislike for him as a person/player

General dislike for his fans.

[Jacks3]

Regardless, Kobe is top 10. However, because Jacks 3 is being such a little b*tch in this thread I might just say he isn't top 100 and never will be.

.
u :mad: ?

[BlackWhiteGreen]

u :mad: ?

You could put your points across in a much less troll-like manner, but whatever. Do what you want to do.

[G.O.A.T.]

17 is more than 16

Nice...and how many of those were in the last 25 years? I wasn't even making it a Lakers vs. Celtics deal but OK.

If people can make the argument that Shaq/Duncan/whoever's rings are worth more than Kobe's five, then I can say that the majority of the Celtics rings came during a time when the NBA was in its infancy.

[chazzy]

The rape incident

General dislike for him as a person/player

General dislike for his fans.

If he wasn't so damn polarizing he would have a more consistent ranking. Lot of people just don't like the guy, and hate the way people overrate him, so that clouds their judgment of him as a player. It makes them magnify his flaws and throw out a bunch of names that can go ahead of him without any explanation.

[triangleoffense]

Incidently, I was going to rep you, but when I tried, it said that I have used too much of it, and that I would have to wait. I also tried to rep ShaqAttack, but it said that I have to spread my "rep" around first. BTW, I have NEVER "negatively" repped anyone here.

I know it is way off topic...but is anyone else here bothered by this "rep" system? I got a negative rep from a guy who obviously used two different accounts, and within a few minutes of each other...and of course, without him leaving a name, we have no way of knowing. Not only that, but ShaqAttack has said that someone gave out a negative rep, and signed it with HIS name.

So, PLEASE, whoever runs this place...can we get a better system in place?

Rep means nothing, it's pretty much a gimmick to me. If rep had any merit at all, posters like Jblauer shouldn't have exponentially less green bars than Lebron23. The only reason I have any rep at all is that I thought it was cool when I first joined this site and then lost interest relatively quickly, also there was a thread in the Laker forums that was pretty much "rep me I rep you".

[G.O.A.T.]

Rep means nothing, it's pretty much a gimmick to me. If rep had any merit at all, posters like Jblauer shouldn't have exponentially less green bars than Lebron23. The only reason I have any rep at all is that I thought it was cool when I first joined this site and then lost interest relatively quickly, also there was a thread in the Laker forums that was pretty much "rep me I rep you".

Lebron23 is a rep whore

[BlackWhiteGreen]

If he wasn't so damn polarizing he would have a more consistent ranking. Lot of people just don't like the guy, and hate the way people overrate him, so that clouds their judgment of him as a player. It makes them magnify his flaws and throw out a bunch of names that can go ahead of him without any explanation.

Exactly my point. Unfortunately it won't change. I don't tend to wade in on GOAT debates as I've only been alive as long as Shaq's been in the NBA and as such wouldn't be prudent to discuss with any real confidence who is better than another, though I have researched players of interest. Really, to take into account hype, reaction to a player at the time to make a proper all time list you need someone who has followed the NBA from the beginning. However, using the no doubt flawed criteria most people use I can establish that Kobe is worthy of being in the top 10.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

Nice...and how many of those were in the last 25 years? I wasn't even making it a Lakers vs. Celtics deal but OK.

If people can make the argument that Shaq/Duncan/whoever's rings are worth more than Kobe's five, then I can say that the majority of the Celtics rings came during a time when the NBA was in its infancy.

As I can make the debate that the NBA is now watered down and titles are easier to get. You can exploit the facts whichever way suits your argument, however, either way it makes it fcking difficult to try and create a definitive all time list.

[Bring-Your-Js]

A ton of so called "kobe haters" have said he's top 10 or right there other than the lebron fanboy. This, when kobe is still active.

/end thread

[G.O.A.T.]

As I can make the debate that the NBA is now watered down and titles are easier to get. You can exploit the facts whichever way suits your argument, however, either way it makes it fcking difficult to try and create a definitive all time list.

Huh? I wasn't even attempting to create a list. I was merely commenting on the poster's input.

[IInvented]

Hes right at number ten

1. Michael Jordan
2. Larry Bird
3. Magic Johnson
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Tim Duncan
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. Hakim Olajuwon
8. Wilt Chamberlain
9. Bill Russell
10. Kobe Bryant

[guy]

I never claimed Kobe should have won 5 MVPs. I do think he should have won another one though.


When? I see this claim made alot but the fact is according to the usual criteria that is used, he's never deserved it in any year other then the year he won it.

[jlauber]

When? I see this claim made alot but the fact is according to the usual criteria that is used, he's never deserved it in any year other then the year he won it.

I generally agree with this, but having said that, Kobe was probably a top-3 player in the league over the course of that last five years, and maybe top-5 over most of the last decade. Nowitzke and Nash had great seasons, but no intelligent person would take them over Kobe based on play in this past decade.

It kind of reminds me of Henry Aaron, who had one of the greatest careers in MLB history, yet only won ONE MVP award.

[jlauber]

1. MJ
2. KAJ
3. Russel
4. Bird
5. Magic
6. Shaq
7. Duncan
8. Kobe
9. Hakeem
10. Oscar

Does Wilt make your top-20 then?

[Bring-Your-Js]

When? I see this claim made alot but the fact is according to the usual criteria that is used, he's never deserved it in any year other then the year he won it.

I don't argue his MVPs, just as I don't argue his All-NBA/Defense selections. It simply is what it is.

I think he's got a good chance to finish with 2-3 regular season MVPs which one would think should help him immensely with as much stock is put into it here.

[Bring-Your-Js]

Does Wilt make your top-20 then?

:oldlol:

[Kobe24/8]

Kobe is one of the best players in the league. And certainly has been in the history of the league. He's got to be top ten, maybe not any higher than number 10, but he is a top ten player ever. He's obviously gotten a few rings while not being the man, which hinders him for now but he still has a major chance to improve on his ring count.

[OmniStrife]

Does Wilt make your top-20 then?
sorry! :hammerhead:

1. MJ
2. KAJ
3. Russel
4. Wilt
5. Bird
6. Magic
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Hakeem

[jlauber]

sorry! :hammerhead:

1. MJ
2. KAJ
3. Russel
4. Wilt
5. Bird
6. Magic
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Hakeem

I was just giving you a bad time. Incidently, your list above is pretty much the consensus here from what I have read...albeit, with different orders.

[Bring-Your-Js]

1.) MJ
2.) Wilt
3.) KAJ
4.) Russell
5.) Magic
6.) Bird
7.) Duncan
8.) Shaq
9.) Kobe
10.) Hakeem

[New York Knicks]

1a. Kareem
1b. Jordan
3. Wilt
4. Russell
5. Bird
6. Magic
7. Duncan
8. Shaq
9. Hakeem
10. Kobe/West/Dr. J/Hondo/Moses

[Bring-Your-Js]

1a. Kareem
1b. Jordan
3. Wilt
4. Russell
5. Bird
6. Magic
7. Duncan
8. Shaq
9. Hakeem
10. Kobe/West/Dr. J/Hondo/Moses

MOSES!

Such a beast. It's a shame that he has so many great bigs to compete with on most alltime lists by position.

[jlauber]

1a. Kareem
1b. Jordan
3. Wilt
4. Russell
5. Bird
6. Magic
7. Duncan
8. Shaq
9. Hakeem
10. Kobe/West/Dr. J/Hondo/Moses

Off topic, but weren't you in the green a littled while ago???? I wish I could "rep" you, but I guess I have to wait. I only have so many bullets in my gun, I guess.

I am getting more frustrated by this "rep system", and I am going to give up on it. I really see no sense. Hopefully they don't ban us when we are in the red.

[Bring-Your-Js]

I was just giving you a bad time. Incidently, your list above is pretty much the consensus here from what I have read...albeit, with different orders.

Jerry West and Elgin Baylor probably should have won five or six titles in their day. We obviously know why it didn't happen. Baylor's peak ended rather early with injury too, no?

[Bring-Your-Js]

Off topic, but weren't you in the green a littled while ago???? I wish I could "rep" you, but I guess I have to wait. I only have so many bullets in my gun, I guess.

I am getting more frustrated by this "rep system", and I am going to give up on it. I really see no sense. Hopefully they don't ban us when we are in the red.

Kobe fans hit him up lol.

[jlauber]

Jerry West and Elgin Baylor probably should have won five or six titles in their day. We obviously know why it didn't happen. Baylor's peak ended rather early with injury too, no?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elgin_Baylor


Baylor began to be hampered with knee problems during the 1963-64 season. The problems culminated in a severe knee injury, suffered during the 1965 Western Division playoffs. Baylor, while still a very powerful force, was never quite the same, never again averaging above 30 points per game.

After his injury he lost his explosiveness. He was still very skilled, but without his pure atheticism, he was never a force again. I have said it many times, but by the time Wilt joined him, Baylor was on a severe decline. He still somehow finished 5th in the voting in 68-69, but he was awful in the post-season. IMHO, Wilt received way too much blame for that Finals loss to the Celtics. Baylor contributed absolutely nothing in games 3, 4, and 5, and LA lost two of them. And for the record, Elgin averaged 15.4 ppg on .385 shooting the '68-69 post-season.

[New York Knicks]

MOSES!

Such a beast. It's a shame that he has so many great bigs to compete with on most alltime lists by position.
A great big man will always have more impact than a great wing player. That's just the nature of the game. If I was doing an all-time draft in control of multiple teams, the first 6 or so players I would pick would probably be all Centers. The impact a big man has on the game is difficult to duplicate with an average big man and a great wing.

[Poochymama]

:roll:

might be funny, but it's true.

That being said I do have Kobe in my top 10 at either 6 or 7

[Papaya Petee]

I think he is top 10, and most people do, I just strongly disagree that he's better then Shaq. Shaq was more dominant, won more as the man, and basically he's the reason Kobe has 5 rings not 2.

[Jacks3]

might be funny, but it's true.


Not really.

[Desperado]

he's the reason Kobe has 5 rings not 2.

True, Shaq is the reason Kobe has 5 rings instead of 2. However Kobe is the reason Shaq has 4 rings instead of 1.

[Round Mound]

Hakeem and Barkley where more dominant than Kobe and had a superior PER, EFF and +/- .

Kobe is Top 10 for the Media, Common Dumb Fan and Rankings of Popularity but if we talk about pure basketball no way

[Bird]

The vast majority, including myself have Kobe in the top 10.

This right here.

Even Kobe haters (I run the afghanistan branch of the Kobe Hate Club) admit that he is in the top 10.

Those who disagree, are just trolls.

[Jordan23GOAT]

I personally think he's top 10 but just barely. Think about it with people like Jordan, Bill Russell, Wilt, Magic, Bird, ect. ect. How could he beat those guys.

[Papaya Petee]

True, Shaq is the reason Kobe has 5 rings instead of 2. However Kobe is the reason Shaq has 4 rings instead of 1.
3 Final MVP's and 30\15 averages say otherwise...

[BlackWhiteGreen]

Huh? I wasn't even attempting to create a list. I was merely commenting on the poster's input.

That was more of a general comment than anything else.

[dgnr8]

He is.. arguably top5, it's hard to find 7-8 players that are better than him.

My top10 again

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Kobe
7. Duncan
8. Hakeem
9. Shaq
10. Oscar

NO :confusedshrug: WILT?? :wtf: :no:

[Bring-Your-Js]

A great big man will always have more impact than a great wing player. That's just the nature of the game. If I was doing an all-time draft in control of multiple teams, the first 6 or so players I would pick would probably be all Centers. The impact a big man has on the game is difficult to duplicate with an average big man and a great wing.

+1 Agree with that, and it's no wonder why bigs dominate most all-time lists. it makes what jordan accomplished and the efficiency level he did it at all the more impressive.

[rmt]

The sum total of Kobe's resume is top 10 all-time. IMO, what is lacking compared to the other widely acknowledged top 10ers is that they had multiple dominant Finals performances while Kobe really has not.

To me, he is at #9 slightly ahead of Hakeem who carried a weak cast to titles.

What turns me off is the constant over-rating of Kobe by some of his fans (especially the comparisions to MJ) and sometimes revisionist view of history such as (in this thread alone):



Final MVPS- duncan, kobe & hakeem= tied

MVP-Duncan, Kobe & hakeem= tied

Kobe is a better winner than both

Who gave the spurs the most trouble in the early 2000s?:violin:
The first 2 statements are outright false. Duncan has 3 Finals MVPs and 2 MVPs while Kobe has 2 and 1 respectively.

Kobe is a better winner than both - by what measure? Regular season wins - certainly not (Spurs - 69.54% [97-10] to LAL - 65.86% [96-10]). As the most important player on championship teams - no (4 for Duncan to 2 for Kobe).

The last statement disregards the unstoppable force/headache that Shaq was for the Spurs and the entire league during the 3-peat.

[Bring-Your-Js]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elgin_Baylor



After his injury he lost his explosiveness. He was still very skilled, but without his pure atheticism, he was never a force again. I have said it many times, but by the time Wilt joined him, Baylor was on a severe decline. He still somehow finished 5th in the voting in 68-69, but he was awful in the post-season. IMHO, Wilt received way too much blame for that Finals loss to the Celtics. Baylor contributed absolutely nothing in games 3, 4, and 5, and LA lost two of them. And for the record, Elgin averaged 15.4 ppg on .385 shooting the '68-69 post-season.

Yeah, efficiency doesn't look to be his strongest asset, even in his prime. It's been awhile since I looked over his numbers but I recall seeing his postseason fg% higher than what he did in the regular season. talking prime years (59-64)

[Jacks3]

I have him in the top 15.

[hitmanyr2k]

What SG played better defense than Kobe in 06? Clowns. :roll:

15.7 Defensive PER (excellent, average PER is 15)
105 Defensive Rating (above-average)
:facepalm

A 105 defensive rating is average. Above average is in the 102-103 range. Beastly is in the 96-101 range for a perimeter player. And I wouldn't use defensive ratings for Kobe if I were you. Just to show how dumb and blind coaches can be Kobe was making All-Defense first team with garbage defensive ratings like 109 in 2007. He didn't put a lick of defensive effort in that year and still made the team. And if you want a comparison that same year Steve "human turnstile" Nash who's CONSTANTLY ridiculed for his poor defense had a defensive rating of 110. Even die hard Laker fans were scratching their heads and saying wtf when Kobe made the All-D team. That's how weak the league had become defensively at the SG position and to this day that's why Kobe has as many selections as he does. The SG position is just that weak when it comes to defense.

I don't care how many All-D teams Kobe makes. He'll never belong in the same conversation as perimeter defensive greats like Pippen, Jordan, Artest, Payton, Bobby Jones, Sidney Moncrief, Cooper, Dumars, etc.

[Indian guy]

There aren't 10 guys with a better resume than Kobe. He's easily Top 10. Whoever is trying to argue otherwise, let it go already. You have no argument.

[SinJackal]

lol that was off the top of my head..

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Wilt
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Kobe
8. Duncan
9. Hakeem
10. Shaq

happy?

A fair estimate puts kobe at #7, a conservative estimate puts him in the top10.

Not above Duncan unless he wins another title. Bird's below both as well, imo. Shaq's also above everyone up to Magic.

imo it's:

1: Jordan
2: Russel
3: Wilt
4: Kareem
5: Magic
6: Shaq (barely over Duncan)
7: Duncan
8: Kobe
9: Bird
10: Hakeem
11: Oscar


Kobe merely playing out his career puts him above Bird, for anyone who holds Bird in higher regard (can't blame you), he doesn't need more titles to surpass Bird.. I don't consider him to have had a better career than Duncan yet.

If Kobe wins another title, he goes above Duncan and Shaq (barely), arguments can be made for him to be considered above Magic. Thing is, I would rather have Magic than Kobe on my team. Who'd be better would be debatable.

If he wins two more titles, I'd put him above Magic easily, and possibly above Kareem since Kobe would likely be considered the best Laker ever at that point.

If Shaq wins a title with the Celtics, Kobe imo can't possibly be considered better unless he wins two more titles. Shaq was better than Kobe has been. 4 Shaq titles + his dominance > Kobe's 5 titles and his level of play. So 5 Shaq titles > 6 Kobe titles, seeing as how 3 of kobe's current 5 titles were with MVP/Finals MVP Shaq.

Antoher title for Shaq may also put him above Magic, despite it being while on a team with a lesser role.

Duncan playing 3 more solid years while putting up strong fights for title contention imo puts him above Shaq barely (assuming Shaq doesn't win with Boston). Arguments can be made for either side as for who was better, and it'd be hard to 100% disagree with either side.

If Duncan wins another title he goes above Shaq easily, and I'd also put him above Magic for top 5, since he would've then won 5 titles as the obvious best player on his team. A feat that has only been accomplished by Jordan and Russel.

In the extremely unlikely even Duncan wins two more titles, I'd put him at #4 easily.



All that's my opinion, we all have one. Not trying to say it's a definitive list.

[Bring-Your-Js]

Not above Duncan unless he wins another title. Bird's below both as well, imo. Shaq's also above everyone up to Magic.

imo it's:

1: Jordan
2: Russel
3: Wilt
4: Kareem
5: Magic
6: Shaq (barely over Duncan)
7: Duncan
8: Kobe
9: Bird
10: Hakeem
11: Oscar


Kobe merely playing out his career puts him above Bird, for anyone who holds Bird in higher regard (can't blame you), he doesn't need more titles to surpass Bird.. I don't consider him to have had a better career than Duncan yet.

If Kobe wins another title, he goes above Duncan and Shaq (barely), arguments can be made for him to be considered above Magic. Thing is, I would rather have Magic than Kobe on my team. Who'd be better would be debatable.

If he wins two more titles, I'd put him above Magic easily, and possibly above Kareem since Kobe would likely be considered the best Laker ever at that point.

If Shaq wins a title with the Celtics, Kobe imo can't possibly be considered better unless he wins two more titles. Shaq was better than Kobe has been. 4 Shaq titles + his dominance > Kobe's 5 titles and his level of play. So 5 Shaq titles > 6 Kobe titles, seeing as how 3 of kobe's current 5 titles were with MVP/Finals MVP Shaq.

Antoher title for Shaq may also put him above Magic, despite it being while on a team with a lesser role.

Duncan playing 3 more solid years while putting up strong fights for title contention imo puts him above Shaq barely (assuming Shaq doesn't win with Boston). Arguments can be made for either side as for who was better, and it'd be hard to 100% disagree with either side.

If Duncan wins another title he goes above Shaq easily, and I'd also put him above Magic for top 5, since he would've then won 5 titles as the obvious best player on his team. A feat that has only been accomplished by Jordan and Russel.

In the extremely unlikely even Duncan wins two more titles, I'd put him at #4 easily.



All that's my opinion, we all have one. Not trying to say it's a definitive list.

So you have Kobe higher than i do?? :oldlol:

Riveting post too. Seriously.. All that sounds immensely exciting.

Where would u put bryant if he were to somehow finish with the alltime scoring record and 7 titles?

[jlauber]

Not above Duncan unless he wins another title. Bird's below both as well, imo. Shaq's also above everyone up to Magic.

imo it's:

1: Jordan
2: Russel
3: Wilt
4: Kareem
5: Magic
6: Shaq (barely over Duncan)
7: Duncan
8: Kobe
9: Bird
10: Hakeem
11: Oscar


Kobe merely playing out his career puts him above Bird, for anyone who holds Bird in higher regard (can't blame you), he doesn't need more titles to surpass Bird.. I don't consider him to have had a better career than Duncan yet.

If Kobe wins another title, he goes above Duncan and Shaq (barely), arguments can be made for him to be considered above Magic. Thing is, I would rather have Magic than Kobe on my team. Who'd be better would be debatable.

If he wins two more titles, I'd put him above Magic easily, and possibly above Kareem since Kobe would likely be considered the best Laker ever at that point.

If Shaq wins a title with the Celtics, Kobe imo can't possibly be considered better unless he wins two more titles. Shaq was better than Kobe has been. 4 Shaq titles + his dominance > Kobe's 5 titles and his level of play. So 5 Shaq titles > 6 Kobe titles, seeing as how 3 of kobe's current 5 titles were with MVP/Finals MVP Shaq.

Antoher title for Shaq may also put him above Magic, despite it being while on a team with a lesser role.

Duncan playing 3 more solid years while putting up strong fights for title contention imo puts him above Shaq barely (assuming Shaq doesn't win with Boston). Arguments can be made for either side as for who was better, and it'd be hard to 100% disagree with either side.

If Duncan wins another title he goes above Shaq easily, and I'd also put him above Magic for top 5, since he would've then won 5 titles as the obvious best player on his team. A feat that has only been accomplished by Jordan and Russel.

In the extremely unlikely even Duncan wins two more titles, I'd put him at #4 easily.



All that's my opinion, we all have one. Not trying to say it's a definitive list.

But it's an educated opinion. Very good post. I'd love to rep you, but the forces-that-be are preventing me from repping anyone right now.

[Desperado]

3 Final MVP's and 30\15 averages say otherwise...

So your saying the Lakers still 3-peat without Kobe!? :oldlol:

[Bring-Your-Js]

So your saying the Lakers still 3-peat without Kobe!? :oldlol:

Might be time to cue the Kobe accomplishment list ala 95-96penny vs. 05-06 kobe thread... Wth updated postseason points.

[SinJackal]

So you have Kobe higher than i do?? :oldlol:

Riveting post too. Seriously.. All that sounds immensely exciting.

Where would u put bryant if he were to somehow finish with the alltime scoring record and 7 titles?

I actually have Kobe just slightly below Bird, but I'm assuming Kobe's going to round out his career with at least 2-3 more decent years, so I don't think it's too much of a reach to put him above Larry right now. Kobe's last title (despite a rather lackluster finals performance), puts Kobe above Bird right now automatically, and it's hard to argue with that.

I'm not sure if Kobe's going to get the all time scoring record, but if he gets all that, he'd probably be around #3-4. MJ and Russel are the two clear cut best players ever. Wilt is up there on his ridiculous numbers and forced game changes, rather than for winning titles, but 7 titles and a long career of lots of scoring is hard to argue with, so he'd be above Wilt in my book, barely.

I wouldn't put him any higher because:

Kobe's lesser efficiancy than MJ and lower overall game are going to permenantly keep him below Jordan unless he somehow wins 3 of the next 5. Only then would I even listen to a debate about it. . .Kobe's individual and team player are worse than Jordan's across the board. They played the same position, and MJ was better. The only way he can be considered better is to dominate his era the way MJ did. If he 3 peats without Shaq, it helps, but he'd also need 1-2 more titles beyond that to erase some of the negativity surrounding the ones he won with Shaq, a player many rate higher than him on the all time list.

Russel also has 11 rings, changed the game, and was a monster player. 2 more Kobe title -might- put him above Russel, if he gets back into MVP form, and wins "real" Finals MVP awards, rather than the one he got last time for a below-standard performance as far as what we're usually accustomed to from Kobe's usual quality game. Basically, he just needs to play a little better than he has been late in the playoffs while winning his titles, and be clearly the best player on the floor without question.

[ILLsmak]

It's not really the top 10 thing... it's the top tier. And Kobe is not top tier. That's the main thing that people are trying to get across. He's not MJ, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Russell, or Wilt. After that, you can say "well, maybe" for some other guys over him but it's just opinion, but the gap between those guys and Kobe is huge.

I personally believe there are a lot of players that are just as good or better than Kobe. I think Kobe has done work, but I also think he has the wrong mindset when it comes to playing basketball and can shoot you out of the game. He also is not outstanding at anything except scoring.

The one thing I have to credit Kobe with is taking bad shots at the right time. I don't know if it's just luck or his teammates being smart and knowing Kobe is about to jack, but a lot of the time it seems like Kobe knows someone will get a rebound and putback if he just gets it on the rim. That's a talent in itself.

-Smak

[Bring-Your-Js]

Kobe getting into Top 4-5 would be extremely miraculous and an amazing feat. He clearly isn't near a few guys either due to accolades, efficiency or even both. His bulldog determination and work ethic can only take him so far.. But he's chipping away and forcing himself into conversations career-wise.

[ILLsmak]

So your saying the Lakers still 3-peat without Kobe!? :oldlol:

Double post. The idea is that you could find another player to replace Kobe out of the pool of NBA players... maybe even 10 players. Shaq could not be replaced.

If you take Kobe off that team and don't add anyone else, of course they don't 3 peat... they might not even win 1. But if you add in another star wing, they do...

But IMO nobody could replace Shaq on that team because that team was not talented outside of Shaq and Kobe. Nobody could make up the offense required to win. Not even Duncan. They might win some with TD, but not a 3peat.

-Smak

[KenneBell]

Provided Kobe plays a couple more high level seasons and wins another championship, I can see him moving above Duncan and Shaq and possibly even Bird. I think he definitely pass the former two with his team and work ethic.

I don't see how that isn't top tier. His peak may not have been as high as some others but as a total career, there's no way he's not going to be in the conversation especially among casual fans.

[Papaya Petee]

So your saying the Lakers still 3-peat without Kobe!? :oldlol:
Yes, Kobe wasn't the best shooting guard in those 3 years he won championships with Shaq.

Tell me why an old 20\9\2 Shaq won a championship with a 3rd year Wade?

Prime Shaq with a 3rd year Wade = 3 championships easily.

[KenneBell]

Yes, Kobe wasn't the best shooting guard in those 3 years he won championships with Shaq.

He was in '02.

[catch24]

He was in '02.

And 2001. Theres no doubt in my mind he was better than AI his MVP season.

KB: 28/6/5 on 46% FG, 30% 3PT, 85% FT, 55% TS
AI: 31/4/4 on 42% FG, 32% 3PT, 81% FT, 51% TS

[SinJackal]

Kobe getting into Top 4-5 would be extremely miraculous and an amazing feat. He clearly isn't near a few guys either due to accolades, efficiency or even both. His bulldog determination and work ethic can only take him so far.. But he's chipping away and forcing himself into conversations career-wise.

I agree. I don't see him cracking the top 3 of MJ/Russel/Wilt without a miracle last 1/3rd of his career.

I can see him passing Magic and Kareem, but he's going to need at least another title and be the clear cut best player on the floor throughout the playoffs when he wins, and even when he loses. If he does win 2 more titles, another scoring title, another MVP, 2 more Finals MVPs. . .it'd be impossible to deny him a high rank. At this point, I really can't rate him any higher than I have him now realisticly, and I'm being as unbiased as I possibly can.



Double post. The idea is that you could find another player to replace Kobe out of the pool of NBA players... maybe even 10 players. Shaq could not be replaced.

If you take Kobe off that team and don't add anyone else, of course they don't 3 peat... they might not even win 1. But if you add in another star wing, they do...

But IMO nobody could replace Shaq on that team because that team was not talented outside of Shaq and Kobe. Nobody could make up the offense required to win. Not even Duncan. They might win some with TD, but not a 3peat.

-Smak

The main competition for the Lakers during their 3peat was Duncan's Spurs. Removing their biggest obstacle would have made it even easier to win titles. In fact, don't forget the Shaq 3peat is book-ended with two knockouts from none other than Tim Duncan's Spurs, who won titles on both sides of the Shaq 3peat.

Technically, if TD was a Laker and Shaq didn't exist, they might have won 4-5. I'd pencil them in for at least 4, let's not forget Shaq lost to the Pistons whom the Spurs beat the following year, after beating Shaq's Lakers. Shaq's team was the only team to knock out Duncan back then, so taking him out of the equation allows Duncan to easily make the finals. When the Spurs lost to the Mavs during that time, dont' forget Duncan was out w/ injury. They didn't beat Duncan.



And 2001. Theres no doubt in my mind he was better than AI his MVP season.

KB: 28/6/5 on 46% FG, 30% 3PT, 85% FT, 55% TS
AI: 31/4/4 on 42% FG, 32% 3PT, 81% FT, 51% TS

I'd take Duncan or Shaq that year over either.

[zay_24]

I personally think he's top 10 but just barely. Think about it with people like Jordan, Bill Russell, Wilt, Magic, Bird, ect. ect. How could he beat those guys.
just barely but yet you only named 5 players?

[zay_24]

The sum total of Kobe's resume is top 10 all-time. IMO, what is lacking compared to the other widely acknowledged top 10ers is that they had multiple dominant Finals performances while Kobe really has not.

To me, he is at #9 slightly ahead of Hakeem who carried a weak cast to titles.

What turns me off is the constant over-rating of Kobe by some of his fans (especially the comparisions to MJ) and sometimes revisionist view of history such as (in this thread alone):


The first 2 statements are outright false. Duncan has 3 Finals MVPs and 2 MVPs while Kobe has 2 and 1 respectively.

Kobe is a better winner than both - by what measure? Regular season wins - certainly not (Spurs - 69.54% [97-10] to LAL - 65.86% [96-10]). As the most important player on championship teams - no (4 for Duncan to 2 for Kobe).

The last statement disregards the unstoppable force/headache that Shaq was for the Spurs and the entire league during the 3-peat.
how are they false when they're facts?

[catch24]

I'd take Duncan or Shaq that year over either.

No question. I'd take 2000-2002 Shaq over any perimeter player this decade.

[Heilige]

I have him in the top 15.


Can you list 10 guys you have over Kobe?

[Bring-Your-Js]

I agree. I don't see him cracking the top 3 of MJ/Russel/Wilt without a miracle last 1/3rd of his career.

I can see him passing Magic and Kareem, but he's going to need at least another title and be the clear cut best player on the floor throughout the playoffs when he wins, and even when he loses. If he does win 2 more titles, another scoring title, another MVP, 2 more Finals MVPs. . .it'd be impossible to deny him a high rank. At this point, I really can't rate him any higher than I have him now realisticly, and I'm being as unbiased as I possibly can.




The main competition for the Lakers during their 3peat was Duncan's Spurs. Removing their biggest obstacle would have made it even easier to win titles. In fact, don't forget the Shaq 3peat is book-ended with two knockouts from none other than Tim Duncan's Spurs, who won titles on both sides of the Shaq 3peat.

Technically, if TD was a Laker and Shaq didn't exist, they might have won 4-5. I'd pencil them in for at least 4, let's not forget Shaq lost to the Pistons whom the Spurs beat the following year, after beating Shaq's Lakers. Shaq's team was the only team to knock out Duncan back then, so taking him out of the equation allows Duncan to easily make the finals. When the Spurs lost to the Mavs during that time, dont' forget Duncan was out w/ injury. They didn't beat Duncan.




I'd take Duncan or Shaq that year over either.

I wouldnt say he needs it BADLY per se, but a FULL SEASON of what he was doing the first few months of last season before the injuries wouldnt hurt. He was roughly 30/6/6 @ 49%. I dont want to say he CANT do it but it clearly hasn't happened. His 27-29/5/5 @ 46% is always All NBA worthy but the guy needs a Real Good MVP year. That 1 mvp sucks. Not the season itself, just the fact that he has one. Kareem has 6, jordan and russell 5, wilt 4..;He also seriously needs another 2009-type finals Averages 32 ppg, 5 rpg, 7 apg.. But in the 47-50% range, not 43-44%.

Ita nit picky bullshit but it would do wonders for him for a lot of opinions.

[Desperado]

Yes, Kobe wasn't the best shooting guard in those 3 years he won championships with Shaq.

Tell me why an old 20\9\2 Shaq won a championship with a 3rd year Wade?

Prime Shaq with a 3rd year Wade = 3 championships easily.

Kobe's playoff production during the 3-peat.

2000: 21/5/4

2001: 29/7/6

2002: 27/6/5

Also numerous clutch performances and astonishing games.

It wasn't until Kobe developed into an elite player and became a stater that the Lakers had a 3-peat, despite having an all-star back court of Eddie Jones and Nick Van Exel.

Shaq was without a doubt the man during the 3-peat but Kobe was essential and the Lakers wouldn't have won without him.

Also your wrong, Kobe was defiantly the best SG in the league in 2001 and 2002 and during the 2001 playoffs he was playing some of the best basketball of his career and was the better than anyone in the '01 playoffs not named Shaq.

[Jacks3]

A 105 defensive rating is average. Above average is in the 102-103 range. Beastly is in the 96-101 range for a perimeter player. And I wouldn't use defensive ratings for Kobe if I were you. Just to show how dumb and blind coaches can be Kobe was making All-Defense first team with garbage defensive ratings like 109 in 2007. He didn't put a lick of defensive effort in that year and still made the team. And if you want a comparison that same year Steve "human turnstile" Nash who's CONSTANTLY ridiculed for his poor defense had a defensive rating of 110. Even die hard Laker fans were scratching their heads and saying wtf when Kobe made the All-D team. That's how weak the league had become defensively at the SG position and to this day that's why Kobe has as many selections as he does. The SG position is just that weak when it comes to defense.

Yeah, he's the best defensive SG in the league. And yes, his defensive rating in 06 was above average. lol @ comparing Nash's defense to Kobe's. Again, defensive rating is just one of my claims of prof.


I don't care how many All-D teams Kobe makes. He'll never belong in the same conversation as perimeter defensive greats like Pippen, Jordan, Artest, Payton, Bobby Jones, Sidney Moncrief, Cooper, Dumars, etc.


Keep telling yourself that. :oldlol:

8 All-NBA 1st Team Defensive Teams
2 All-NBA 2nd Team Defensive Teams

DPOY Voting
2010 (12th)
2009 (7th)
2008 (5th)
2007 (24th)
2004 (10th)
2003 (8th)
2002 (3rd)
2001 (11th)
2000 (5th)


He's already one of the All-Time Great perimeter defenders in history.

[Jacks3]

Can you list 10 guys you have over Kobe?
Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
Bird
Magic
Rusell
Duncan
Shaq
Barkley--Arguable
KG--Arguable
Karl Malone--Arguable
Julius Erving--Arguable

All I'm concerned about is level of play.

[magnax1]

He's borderline top 10 to me. I had him around 9, but I lowered him a little bit now.

[Bring-Your-Js]

Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
Bird
Magic
Rusell
Duncan
Shaq
Barkley--Arguable
KG--Arguable
Karl Malone--Arguable
Julius Erving--Arguable

All I'm concerned about is level of play.

That's probably the most fair way to make an assessment and why people don't have him in the top ten even though I feel his 'Peak' individually was underrated.

The thing with basketball, compared to football or baseball is that one player, particularly a hall of fame caliber player, has significantly more impact on the game than any player at any position in nfl/mlb where outside of qb's, rings don't really mean Shit. (see Ted Williams or Barry Sanders).

Basketball culture and accolades are different and a true part of a legacy.

[Heilige]

Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
Bird
Magic
Rusell
Duncan
Shaq
Barkley--Arguable
KG--Arguable
Karl Malone--Arguable
Julius Erving--Arguable

All I'm concerned about is level of play.


Is that your ranking in order? If so, didn't you say the other day Shaq was a top 5 player?

[Jacks3]

It's not in order.

[G.O.A.T.]

He's borderline top 10 to me. I had him around 9, but I lowered him a little bit now.

I guess winning the championship has a negative effect on a players legacy.
:oldlol:

[Disaprine]

I put kobe at number 10 as soon as he won his second finals MVP.

[magnax1]

I guess winning the championship has a negative effect on a players legacy.
:oldlol:
Or changing viewpoint and learning more about players from the past that I didn't have the chance to watch live.

[Bring-Your-Js]

I guess winning the championship has a negative effect on a players legacy.
:oldlol:

This.

:facepalm

[Disaprine]

Kobe is Top 10 for the Media, Common Dumb Fan and Rankings of Popularity but if we talk about pure basketball no way
http://imageftw.com/uploads/20100811/turrable.jpg

[bdreason]

I have him at #10.

Some people put Oscar ahead of him... I don't.

[branslowski]

Only Clueless moronic dickheads don't have him in their top 10....The Factual evidence is overwhelmingly in Kobe's favor.

[Round Mound]

http://imageftw.com/uploads/20100811/turrable.jpg

Explain to me how Kobe was a more dominant and efficient player than Barkley?

[PowerGlove]

Only Clueless moronic dickheads don't have him in their top 10....The Factual evidence is overwhelmingly in Kobe's favor.
People do these lists differently.


Chill.

but these lists are all trash anyways.

[Fatstogie]

Wilt is not top-ten?

No he played against scrubs.

Kobe is number 2 behind MJ.

Call the lakers good yea. But Kobe has bailed them out on quite a few occasions. He is "the man" on a good team. Being the man on a nobody team is easy.

He was the man when shaq was there. Hes the man now.

Kobe would embarass the daisy dukes(geezers) in their prime.

[branslowski]

People do these lists differently.


Chill.

but these lists are all trash anyways.

I understand that....But again...The Guy has 5 Titles and 2 Finals MVP's, along with All-Time high levels in All-NBA Teams, All-Defensive Teams, All-Stars, and All-Star MVP's...Dudehas like 9 seasons in a row avg 25-5-5 basically...Top 5 in All-Time Playoff points...Num 2 in Career Game-winners...I mean, I could go in...It just isn't logical to not have this guy in your top 10...You either have to be just a pure dipshitted hater, or a clueless moronic dickhead....Or All of the above.


And Round Mound...Please STFU...You still madd Barkley couldn't win titles...Career loser...Talkin shit bout LeBron like he aint do the same shit..:lol

[jlauber]

No he played against scrubs.

Kobe is number 2 behind MJ.

Call the lakers good yea. But Kobe has bailed them out on quite a few occasions. He is "the man" on a good team. Being the man on a nobody team is easy.

He was the man when shaq was there. Hes the man now.

Kobe would embarass the daisy dukes(geezers) in their prime.

Yeah...Wilt only not only faced 12 "scrub" HOFers in his career, he was routinely playing against them 6-10 times, or more, each season.

Using your logic, Hakeem and Ewing were "scrubs" as well. Why? Because Kareem, at age 39 EMBARRASSED both of them. And yet, Kareem struggled against the little known Thurmond in three straight playoff series in the early 70's.

[SinJackal]

I wouldnt say he needs it BADLY per se, but a FULL SEASON of what he was doing the first few months of last season before the injuries wouldnt hurt. He was roughly 30/6/6 @ 49%. I dont want to say he CANT do it but it clearly hasn't happened. His 27-29/5/5 @ 46% is always All NBA worthy but the guy needs a Real Good MVP year. That 1 mvp sucks. Not the season itself, just the fact that he has one. Kareem has 6, jordan and russell 5, wilt 4..;He also seriously needs another 2009-type finals Averages 32 ppg, 5 rpg, 7 apg.. But in the 47-50% range, not 43-44%.

Ita nit picky bullshit but it would do wonders for him for a lot of opinions.

I actually agree with that pretty much 100%. Some of his awards seem to be more lifetime achievement awards than they were for him actually being the most valuble/best player for a particular year/series. I don't think that's very fair unless it's just an all star appearance.

I don't think it's too nitpicky though, you make a good point. It'd put the facepalming over some of his awards to rest. He should be capable of an MVP this upcoming season. To be honest, how this year pans out for him should have a big impact on where he's going to end up on the list. He's got several things going for him (best team, good schedule, not quite "too old" yet), so he should have a great shot since everything around him is set up for him to succeed right now. It's all up to whether or not he's good enough.

[catch24]

I understand that....But again...The Guy has 5 Titles and 2 Finals MVP's, along with All-Time high levels in All-NBA Teams, All-Defensive Teams, All-Stars, and All-Star MVP's...Dudehas like 9 seasons in a row avg 25-5-5 basically...Top 5 in All-Time Playoff points...Num 2 in Career Game-winners...I mean, I could go in...It just isn't logical to not have this guy in your top 10...You either have to be just a pure dipshitted hater, or a clueless moronic dickhead....Or All of the above.

With his second Finals MVP, there's literally no reason anyone should have him outside their top 10 list (I have him at #10 atm). The text in the bold though... lol, this alone would have him arguably top 10. Unbelievable resume for a bad ass player.

[branslowski]

With his second Finals MVP, there's literally no reason anyone should have him outside their top 10 list (I have him at #10 atm). The text in the bold though... lol, this alone would have him arguably top 10. Unbelievable resume for a bad ass player.

Exactly.

[Jacks3]

I wouldnt say he needs it BADLY per se, but a FULL SEASON of what he was doing the first few months of last season before the injuries wouldnt hurt. He was roughly 30/6/6 @ 49%.
He basically did this for the entire 2007 season--32/6/5/2 on 58% TS. :eek:

[Bring-Your-Js]

He basically did this for the entire 2007 season--32/6/5/2 on 58% TS. :eek:

My favorite season of his. Many go with 05-06, 02-03 or even 00-01. That was my particular favorite individual year.

I'm kind of developing a defeatist attitude towards kobe though.. Maybe reading too much ISH :oldlol:

Some things just aren't in the cards, that much is clear.

[plowking]

Honestly, i have not seen ONE good argument as to why kobe is NOT top 10 alltime.

Someone who disagrees with Kobe being top 10 alltime please come in here and tell me why.

Because he licksadickaday.

[rmt]

Final MVPS- duncan, kobe & hakeem= tied

MVP-Duncan, Kobe & hakeem= tied


The first 2 statements are outright false. Duncan has 3 Finals MVPs and 2 MVPs while Kobe has 2 and 1 respectively.


how are they false when they're facts?
Are you saying that it's fact that Duncan and Kobe are tied in Finals MVPs and that Duncan and Kobe are tied in MVPs? This is what I mean about some Kobe fans and revisionist history :banghead: .

Duncan - Finals MVP 99, 03, 05
Kobe - Finals MVP 09, 10

Duncan - MVP 02, 03
Kobe - MVP 08

[JustinJDW]

Most people should have Kobe in their Top 10. People get too hung up on rankings though.

[bl2k8]

Are you saying that it's fact that Duncan and Kobe are tied in Finals MVPs and that Duncan and Kobe are tied in MVPs? This is what I mean about some Kobe fans and revisionist history :banghead: .

Duncan - Finals MVP 99, 03, 05
Kobe - Finals MVP 09, 10

Duncan - MVP 02, 03
Kobe - MVP 08
the comma after duncans name means duncan is in first place in that category,and if OP was saying KB was tied with Duncan that wouldn't even be revisionist history:facepalm

[rmt]

the comma after duncans name means duncan is in first place in that category,
Then OP needs to make that clear. ___, ___ & ___ = tied means that all ___ are tied.

and if OP was saying KB was tied with Duncan that wouldn't even be revisionist history:facepalm
What??? Are you saying that if OP was saying that KB was tied with Duncan that wouldn't be a revision (rewriting) of history?

[beermonsteroo]

Because the NBA has seen more then ten players who were better then Kobe. Quiet simple to answer.

[Connoisseur]

Yes, Kobe's got the stats, the rings, 2 as The Man, gamer-winners and clutch ability to close out games, and many things that aren't measured by numbers: killer instinct, leadership, turning his team mates into better players (Gasol prime example).

Also, he can activate GOD-MODE... which should push him up 1 slot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuSpY4Rfrm8

A lot of people are pseudo-statisticians who tend to overlook aspects of a player which are best observed in real time. Momentum building/countering (key plays), clutch offensive plays without scoring or assisting and defensive plays without stealing or blocking the ball, difficulty of division/conference, etc.

[madmax]

Because he's not TOP 10 player of all time...nuff said:confusedshrug: There are plenty of guys in history of the game who had much bigger impact on court than this chucking SG, they just maybe didn't have a luck to to play for the winning organisation and coach in their careers. I could give a crap about Kome's accomplishments, since they are TEAM's aaccolades first and foremost. LAKERS have won those titles in the last 10 years, not one guy, named Kobe.

[Knoe Itawl]

As far as his RESUME is concerned, a case can be made for Bryant being top 10.

As far as an actual PLAYER, I don't see it. There are several other players who I feel had as much or more impact than him but don't have the rings, which let's face it is the main reason people put him top 10. Rings are a component of greatness, but not the end all/be all.

For example, when Jordan retired the first time, many people already considered him GOAT. The second threepeat was icing on the cake. Well, Bird had equal rings, Magic had 5, Russell had 11, etc. so why was Jordan considered GOAT by many after his first 3? Because it wasn't necessarily about the rings, they were PART of what made him great.

Kobe has just never shown that he's actually a better PLAYER than guys like Barkley, Malone, Moses, Baylor especially when you consider that elite low post players generally > elite perimeter players. I also don't put as much emphasis on his scoring, because while he's obviously one of the most talented scorers in history, his scoring mentality has often been as much of a detriment to his teams as it is a positive, and scoring is NOT the most important thing in basketball. Otherwise, Allen Iverson would be ranked a lot higher.

[Heilige]

As far as his RESUME is concerned, a case can be made for Bryant being top 10.

As far as an actual PLAYER, I don't see it. There are several other players who I feel had as much or more impact than him but don't have the rings, which let's face it is the main reason people put him top 10. Rings are a component of greatness, but not the end all/be all.

For example, when Jordan retired the first time, many people already considered him GOAT. The second threepeat was icing on the cake. Well, Bird had equal rings, Magic had 5, Russell had 11, etc. so why was Jordan considered GOAT by many after his first 3? Because it wasn't necessarily about the rings, they were PART of what made him great.

Kobe has just never shown that he's actually a better PLAYER than guys like Barkley, Malone, Moses, Baylor especially when you consider that elite low post players generally > elite perimeter players. I also don't put as much emphasis on his scoring, because while he's obviously one of the most talented scorers in history, his scoring mentality has often been as much of a detriment to his teams as it is a positive, and scoring is NOT the most important thing in basketball. Otherwise, Allen Iverson would be ranked a lot higher.


Where do you have Kobe on your all-time list?

Also, what is your top 10 list like?

[tpols]

As far as his RESUME is concerned, a case can be made for Bryant being top 10.

As far as an actual PLAYER, I don't see it. There are several other players who I feel had as much or more impact than him but don't have the rings, which let's face it is the main reason people put him top 10. Rings are a component of greatness, but not the end all/be all.

For example, when Jordan retired the first time, many people already considered him GOAT. The second threepeat was icing on the cake. Well, Bird had equal rings, Magic had 5, Russell had 11, etc. so why was Jordan considered GOAT by many after his first 3? Because it wasn't necessarily about the rings, they were PART of what made him great.

Kobe has just never shown that he's actually a better PLAYER than guys like Barkley, Malone, Moses, Baylor especially when you consider that elite low post players generally > elite perimeter players. I also don't put as much emphasis on his scoring, because while he's obviously one of the most talented scorers in history, his scoring mentality has often been as much of a detriment to his teams as it is a positive, and scoring is NOT the most important thing in basketball. Otherwise, Allen Iverson would be ranked a lot higher.
How is kobe not better than guys like malone, barkley, and moses? If you watched all these guys play you'd know kobe was easily a better SG than these guys were PFs. Karl Malone was just a physical beast with godly longevity but he, imo, isn't even a top 25 player all time (in terms of peak/prime ability). Barkley was a great player but kobe has led teams much farther than barkley ever has. When kobe was the go-to guy in the clutch during the first three peat everyone ripped him for playing with shaq despite the fact that he was the best player at his position in the league. Now he's going for another three peat as the undisputed man and he still hasn't shown you what he can do? Kobe has led his team through the playoffs every year and always catches heat for small things and is diminished (that 6-24 still fogging your brain?).

Kobe's playoff numbers with this second team as the man are actually superior to barkley's. He put up:

33/5/4 on .561 TS%
30/5.5/5.5 on .577 TS%
30/5/5.5 on .564 TS%
29/6/5.5 on .567 TS%

Barkley put up:

27/13/4 on .552 TS%
27/13/5 on .575 TS%
26/13/3 on .580 TS%
26/13/4 on .562 TS%

How exactly is barkley better than kobe in their largest sample of prime playoff performances? Not only is kobe a superior passer, scorer, playmaker, ballhandler, and shooter, but he's also a better defender and is a much, much better guy to go to in the clutch. Shit, barkley's ONLY argument over kobe is his efficiency stats of which he got beat three out of the four years! There's no doubt he wanted more than barkley which is why he got more. Much more actually.


How are you doubting a player that has not only shown through watching the games his impact on their success, but has also had the stats and most clutch memories in the HISTORY of the league minus jordan?

[necya]

Because he's not TOP 10 player of all time...nuff said:confusedshrug: There are plenty of guys in history of the game who had much bigger impact on court than this chucking SG, they just maybe didn't have a luck to to play for the winning organisation and coach in their careers. I could give a crap about Kome's accomplishments, since they are TEAM's aaccolades first and foremost. LAKERS have won those titles in the last 10 years, not one guy, named Kobe.

it's like a little island in the atlantic ocean.
you will get many "bad reputation" you know, it's dangerous here.

he is not top 10 and will never be. i read people put him in the 10 cause he won another championship this year. for my part it confirms that he is not, he is, again, a controversial MVP as gasol deserved it.

kobe's impact on the level of play of his team is too overrated.

then every list are biased for me, as people put O'neal in the top 6-7. Olajuwon is a better center than o'neal, it's just an evidence. then no barkley, no karl malone is ****ing laughable.
and for the best players of this annoying decade : duncan, O'neal, Kobe. is kobe has had a bigger impact than the previous 2? never.

[ILLsmak]

Kobe has won rings but he has never been the best player in the NBA during his rings. I think that is what keeps the all-time greats above Kobe. Sure, it may be luck... if you put a better team around Kobe at points and it may have happened, but then again he may have shot them out of the game because he wanted to affirm his greatness to the media and fans.


-Smak

[gts]

it's like a little island in the atlantic ocean.
you will get many "bad reputation" you know, it's dangerous here.

he is not top 10 and will never be. i read people put him in the 10 cause he won another championship this year. for my part it confirms that he is not, he is, again, a controversial MVP as gasol deserved it.

kobe's impact on the level of play of his team is too overrated.

then every list are biased for me, as people put O'neal in the top 6-7. Olajuwon is a better center than o'neal, it's just an evidence. then no barkley, no karl malone is ****ing laughable.
and for the best players of this annoying decade : duncan, O'neal, Kobe. is kobe has had a bigger impact than the previous 2? never.wow you worked way to hard to get that out and it still makes little sense

fact of life if somebody new moves into the top 10 then somebody is going to be dropped... kobe is a top ten player and sadly one of your favorites is going to no longer be on that list..

[NY-Knicks]

You can't seriously leave Kobe out of your top 10 unless you are incredibly biased. Just like the people who put Kobe in the top 3 or consider him the goat are biased IMO. There aren't 10 players in the history of the game with his resume, there just aren't. I'm not saying you should put him in your top 5 and praise him but at least recognize his talent and his accomplishments in this league.

[Manute for Ever!]

People get too hung up on rankings though.

I've been saying this for quite some time, now...

[necya]

wow you worked way to hard to get that out and it still makes little sense

fact of life if somebody new moves into the top 10 then somebody is going to be dropped... kobe is a top ten player and sadly one of your favorites is going to no longer be on that list..

i'm not working, i laugh when i' thinking about about ISH and his members...
but if gts says it, it should be right if we refer to your incredible reputation here...

[Calabis]

Even just game dominance.

Kobe has scored 60+ five times, Iverson once.

Kobe has scored 50+ 24 times, Iverson 12.

Kobe has scored 40+ 104 times, Iverson 77.

:roll: Dude, I'm not being serious, its just the two Kobe homers do the exact same thing when comparing Jordan to Kobe, diminish his accomplishments and point out a guy with far less accolades as his equal or better.:banana:

[Desperado]

THE GREATNESS OF KOBE "BEAN" BRYANT!!

5x NBA CHAMPION
(2000, 2001, 2002, 2009, 2010)

2x NBA FINALS MVP
(2009, 2010)

NBA MOST VALUABLE PLAYER
(2008)

12x NBA ALL-STAR
(1998, 2000-2010)

8x ALL-NBA FIRST TEAM
(2002-2004, 2006-2010)

2x ALL-NBA SECOND TEAM
(2000, 2001)


2x ALL-NBA THIRD TEAM
(1999, 2005)

11 TOTAL ALL-NBA TEAMS

8x ALL-DEFENSIVE FIRST TEAM
(2000, 2003-2004, 2006-2010)

2x ALL-DEFENSIVE SECOND TEAM
(2001-2002)

10 TOTAL ALL-DEFENSIVE TEAM......TIED FOR MOST OF ALL-TIME BY A GUARD

NBA ALL-ROOKIE SECOND TEAM
(1997)

NBA SLAM DUNK CHAMPION
(1997)

NAISMITH PREP PLAYER OF THE YEAR
(1996)

Total Career Points- 25,790

Career averages as a starter- 27.2 ppg 5.7 rpg 5.1 apg 46 FG%

SCORING RAMPAGE
81pts in a game
62pts in three quarters
42pts in 1st half
55pts in 2nd half
30pts in one quarter
12 threes in one game
9 threes without a miss in a game
8 threes in one half
9 straight games with 40pts+
4 straight games with 50pts+
27 games with 40pts+ in a season
10 games with 50pts+ in a season
4th player ever with a 35pt+ season average
5th player ever with a 2800pt+ season
1st player ever to outscore a team through 3 quarters
1st player ever with a 2800pt 180 three season

THE 50+PT GAMES:

Kobe-51pts 8ast 7reb vd GSW 99-00
Kobe-56pts 5ast 4reb vs Mem 00-01
Kobe-51pts 2ast 2reb vs Den 02-03
Kobe-52pts 7ast 8reb vs Hou 02-03
Kobe-55pts 3ast 5reb vs Was 02-03
Kobe-62pts 0ast 8reb vs Dal 05-06
Kobe-50pts 8ast 8reb vs Lac 05-06
Kobe-51pts 4ast 9reb vs Sac 05-06
Kobe-81pts 2ast 5reb vs Tor 05-06
Kobe-51pts 3ast 5reb vs Pho 05-06
Kobe-50pts 1ast 6reb vs Por 05-06
Kobe-50pts 5ast 8reb vs Pho 05-06
Kobe-52pts 4ast 4reb vs UTA 06-07
Kobe-53pts 8ast 10reb vs Hou 06-07
Kobe-58pts 4ast 5reb vs Cha 06-07
Kobe-65pts 3ast 7reb vs Por 06-07
Kobe-50pts 6ast 5reb vs Min 06-07
Kobe-60pts 5ast 3reb vs Mem 06-07
Kobe-50pts 7ast 6reb vs NO 06-07
Kobe-53pts 2ast 2reb vs Hou 06-07
Kobe-50pts ast 9reb vs Lac 06-07
Kobe-50pts 3ast 8reb vs Sea 06-07
Kobe-52pts 4ast 11reb vs Dal 07-08
Kobe-53pts ast 7reb vs Mem 07-08
Kobe-61pts 3ast 0reb vs Nyk 08-09

Not to mention
13 straight games with 35+ points
4 straight games with 45+ points (separate streak)

56 points against Memphis through 3 quarters. 61 points against New York in 37 minutes.

The only player in NBA history to score 60+ twice in under 40 minutes played!



KILLER INSTINCT....

List of Kobe's notable game-winners:

1) 05/09/99 - Lakers 101, Rockets 100 (playoffs, game-winning FTs with 5.3 seconds remaining)
2) 12/27/99 - Lakers 108, Mavericks 106 (game-winning FTs)
3) 05/10/00 - Lakers 97, Phoenix 96 (playoffs, jumper over Jason Kidd)
4) 11/16/00 - Lakers 112, Kings 110 (game-tying three for OT, OT jumper for win)
5) 02/07/01 - Lakers 85, Phoenix 83 (jumper with 2.7 seconds remaining)
6) 02/13/01 - Lakers 113, Nets 110 (OT game-winning layup with the And-1)
7) 01/02/02 - Lakers 87, Nuggets 86 (offensive reb and jumper)
8) 02/22/02 - Lakers 96, Hornets 94 (first career buzzer-beater, jumper)
9) 03/24/02 - Lakers 97, Kings 96 (fade-away jumper, 36 seconds remaining)
10) 05/12/02 - Lakers 87, Spurs 85 (playoffs, offensive rebound and put-back)
11) 12/06/02 - Lakers 105, Mavericks 103 (28-point game comeback, spin-around jumper)
12) 04/04/03 - Lakers 102, Grizzlies 101 (buzzer-beater, jumper)
13) 04/06/03 - Lakers 115, Suns 113 (GW jumper with 28.6 seconds remaining)
14) 12/19/03 - Lakers 101, Nuggets 99 (game after the trial, buzzer-beating fade-away)
15) 02/17/04 - Lakers 89, Blazers 86 (layup and the foul)
16) 03/21/04 - Lakers 104, Bucks 103 (OT jumper with 25 seconds remaining)
17) 04/14/04 - Lakers 105, Blazers 104 (game-tying three for OT, OT GW buzzer-beating three)
18) 03/13/05 - Lakers 117, Bobcats 116 (pump fake jumper for the win)
19) 11/02/05 - Lakers 99, Nuggets 97 (OT jumper after the Kwame brick)
20) 12/04/05 - Lakers 99, Bobcats 98 (game-winning FTs)
21) 01/12/06 - Lakers 99, Cavaliers 98 (jumper against Lebron with 8 seconds to go)
22) 04/30/06 - Lakers 99, Suns 98 (playoffs, game-tying tear drop for OT, and OT game-winning jumper)
23) 01/14/08 - Lakers 123, Sonics 121 (OT game-winning jumper)
24) 01/09/09 - Lakers 121, Pacers 119 (jumper against Jarrett Jack with 3 seconds to go)
25) 12/04/09 - Lakers 108, Heat 107 (game-winning buzzer-beating three over Wade)
26) 12/16/09 - Lakers 107, Bucks 106 (game-winning buzzer-beating jumper over Bell)
27) 01/01/10 - Lakers 109, Kings 108 (game-winning buzzer-beating three, 4.1 seconds left and 0.1 remaining)
28) 01/13/10 - Lakers 100, Mavericks 95 (game-winning jumper with 28.9 seconds remaining)
29) 01/31/10 - Lakers 90, Celtics 89 (game-winning jumper with 7 secs remaining)
30) 02/23/10 - Lakers 99, Grizzlies 98 (game-winning jumper with 4.3 seconds remaining)
31) 03/10/10 - Lakers 109, Raptors 107 (game-winning fade-away with 1.9 seconds remaining)

TOTAL CAREER PLAYOFF POINTS LIST TOP 10:
1.Michael Jordan 5987
2.Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 5762
3.Shaquille O'Neal 5121
4.Kobe Bryant 5052
5.Karl Malone 4761
6.Jerry West 4457
7.Larry Bird 3897
8.John Havlicek 3776
9.Hakeem Olajuwon 3755
10.Tim Duncan 3724



Conclusion: Kobe is eaisly top 10. Anyone who dosen't think so has blind hatred or dosen't have a clue on comparing/ranking players or has some double standards when making an all-time list.

[PurpleChuck]

THE GREATNESS OF KOBE "BEAN" BRYANT!!

5x NBA CHAMPION
(2000, 2001, 2002, 2009, 2010)

2x NBA FINALS MVP
(2009, 2010)

NBA MOST VALUABLE PLAYER
(2008)

12x NBA ALL-STAR
(1998, 2000-2010)

8x ALL-NBA FIRST TEAM
(2002-2004, 2006-2010)

2x ALL-NBA SECOND TEAM
(2000, 2001)


2x ALL-NBA THIRD TEAM
(1999, 2005)

11 TOTAL ALL-NBA TEAMS

8x ALL-DEFENSIVE FIRST TEAM
(2000, 2003-2004, 2006-2010)

2x ALL-DEFENSIVE SECOND TEAM
(2001-2002)

10 TOTAL ALL-DEFENSIVE TEAM......TIED FOR MOST OF ALL-TIME BY A GUARD

NBA ALL-ROOKIE SECOND TEAM
(1997)

NBA SLAM DUNK CHAMPION
(1997)

NAISMITH PREP PLAYER OF THE YEAR
(1996)

Total Career Points- 25,790

Career averages as a starter- 27.2 ppg 5.7 rpg 5.1 apg 46 FG%

SCORING RAMPAGE
81pts in a game
62pts in three quarters
42pts in 1st half
55pts in 2nd half
30pts in one quarter
12 threes in one game
9 threes without a miss in a game
8 threes in one half
9 straight games with 40pts+
4 straight games with 50pts+
27 games with 40pts+ in a season
10 games with 50pts+ in a season
4th player ever with a 35pt+ season average
5th player ever with a 2800pt+ season
1st player ever to outscore a team through 3 quarters
1st player ever with a 2800pt 180 three season

THE 50+PT GAMES:

Kobe-51pts 8ast 7reb vd GSW 99-00
Kobe-56pts 5ast 4reb vs Mem 00-01
Kobe-51pts 2ast 2reb vs Den 02-03
Kobe-52pts 7ast 8reb vs Hou 02-03
Kobe-55pts 3ast 5reb vs Was 02-03
Kobe-62pts 0ast 8reb vs Dal 05-06
Kobe-50pts 8ast 8reb vs Lac 05-06
Kobe-51pts 4ast 9reb vs Sac 05-06
Kobe-81pts 2ast 5reb vs Tor 05-06
Kobe-51pts 3ast 5reb vs Pho 05-06
Kobe-50pts 1ast 6reb vs Por 05-06
Kobe-50pts 5ast 8reb vs Pho 05-06
Kobe-52pts 4ast 4reb vs UTA 06-07
Kobe-53pts 8ast 10reb vs Hou 06-07
Kobe-58pts 4ast 5reb vs Cha 06-07
Kobe-65pts 3ast 7reb vs Por 06-07
Kobe-50pts 6ast 5reb vs Min 06-07
Kobe-60pts 5ast 3reb vs Mem 06-07
Kobe-50pts 7ast 6reb vs NO 06-07
Kobe-53pts 2ast 2reb vs Hou 06-07
Kobe-50pts ast 9reb vs Lac 06-07
Kobe-50pts 3ast 8reb vs Sea 06-07
Kobe-52pts 4ast 11reb vs Dal 07-08
Kobe-53pts ast 7reb vs Mem 07-08
Kobe-61pts 3ast 0reb vs Nyk 08-09

Not to mention
13 straight games with 35+ points
4 straight games with 45+ points (separate streak)

56 points against Memphis through 3 quarters. 61 points against New York in 37 minutes.

The only player in NBA history to score 60+ twice in under 40 minutes played!



KILLER INSTINCT....

List of Kobe's notable game-winners:

1) 05/09/99 - Lakers 101, Rockets 100 (playoffs, game-winning FTs with 5.3 seconds remaining)
2) 12/27/99 - Lakers 108, Mavericks 106 (game-winning FTs)
3) 05/10/00 - Lakers 97, Phoenix 96 (playoffs, jumper over Jason Kidd)
4) 11/16/00 - Lakers 112, Kings 110 (game-tying three for OT, OT jumper for win)
5) 02/07/01 - Lakers 85, Phoenix 83 (jumper with 2.7 seconds remaining)
6) 02/13/01 - Lakers 113, Nets 110 (OT game-winning layup with the And-1)
7) 01/02/02 - Lakers 87, Nuggets 86 (offensive reb and jumper)
8) 02/22/02 - Lakers 96, Hornets 94 (first career buzzer-beater, jumper)
9) 03/24/02 - Lakers 97, Kings 96 (fade-away jumper, 36 seconds remaining)
10) 05/12/02 - Lakers 87, Spurs 85 (playoffs, offensive rebound and put-back)
11) 12/06/02 - Lakers 105, Mavericks 103 (28-point game comeback, spin-around jumper)
12) 04/04/03 - Lakers 102, Grizzlies 101 (buzzer-beater, jumper)
13) 04/06/03 - Lakers 115, Suns 113 (GW jumper with 28.6 seconds remaining)
14) 12/19/03 - Lakers 101, Nuggets 99 (game after the trial, buzzer-beating fade-away)
15) 02/17/04 - Lakers 89, Blazers 86 (layup and the foul)
16) 03/21/04 - Lakers 104, Bucks 103 (OT jumper with 25 seconds remaining)
17) 04/14/04 - Lakers 105, Blazers 104 (game-tying three for OT, OT GW buzzer-beating three)
18) 03/13/05 - Lakers 117, Bobcats 116 (pump fake jumper for the win)
19) 11/02/05 - Lakers 99, Nuggets 97 (OT jumper after the Kwame brick)
20) 12/04/05 - Lakers 99, Bobcats 98 (game-winning FTs)
21) 01/12/06 - Lakers 99, Cavaliers 98 (jumper against Lebron with 8 seconds to go)
22) 04/30/06 - Lakers 99, Suns 98 (playoffs, game-tying tear drop for OT, and OT game-winning jumper)
23) 01/14/08 - Lakers 123, Sonics 121 (OT game-winning jumper)
24) 01/09/09 - Lakers 121, Pacers 119 (jumper against Jarrett Jack with 3 seconds to go)
25) 12/04/09 - Lakers 108, Heat 107 (game-winning buzzer-beating three over Wade)
26) 12/16/09 - Lakers 107, Bucks 106 (game-winning buzzer-beating jumper over Bell)
27) 01/01/10 - Lakers 109, Kings 108 (game-winning buzzer-beating three, 4.1 seconds left and 0.1 remaining)
28) 01/13/10 - Lakers 100, Mavericks 95 (game-winning jumper with 28.9 seconds remaining)
29) 01/31/10 - Lakers 90, Celtics 89 (game-winning jumper with 7 secs remaining)
30) 02/23/10 - Lakers 99, Grizzlies 98 (game-winning jumper with 4.3 seconds remaining)
31) 03/10/10 - Lakers 109, Raptors 107 (game-winning fade-away with 1.9 seconds remaining)

TOTAL CAREER PLAYOFF POINTS LIST TOP 10:
1.Michael Jordan 5987
2.Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 5762
3.Shaquille O'Neal 5121
4.Kobe Bryant 5052
5.Karl Malone 4761
6.Jerry West 4457
7.Larry Bird 3897
8.John Havlicek 3776
9.Hakeem Olajuwon 3755
10.Tim Duncan 3724



Conclusion: Kobe is eaisly top 10. Anyone who dosen't think so is a blind hater or dosen't have a clue on comparing/ranking players or has some double standards when making an all-time list.

Chill man. Kobe's top 10 alright, and yeah I agree, easily.

[Yung D-Will]

THE GREATNESS OF KOBE "BEAN" BRYANT!!

5x NBA CHAMPION
(2000, 2001, 2002, 2009, 2010)

2x NBA FINALS MVP
(2009, 2010)

NBA MOST VALUABLE PLAYER
(2008)

12x NBA ALL-STAR
(1998, 2000-2010)

8x ALL-NBA FIRST TEAM
(2002-2004, 2006-2010)

2x ALL-NBA SECOND TEAM
(2000, 2001)


2x ALL-NBA THIRD TEAM
(1999, 2005)

11 TOTAL ALL-NBA TEAMS

8x ALL-DEFENSIVE FIRST TEAM
(2000, 2003-2004, 2006-2010)

2x ALL-DEFENSIVE SECOND TEAM
(2001-2002)

10 TOTAL ALL-DEFENSIVE TEAM......TIED FOR MOST OF ALL-TIME BY A GUARD

NBA ALL-ROOKIE SECOND TEAM
(1997)

NBA SLAM DUNK CHAMPION
(1997)

NAISMITH PREP PLAYER OF THE YEAR
(1996)

Total Career Points- 25,790

Career averages as a starter- 27.2 ppg 5.7 rpg 5.1 apg 46 FG%

SCORING RAMPAGE
81pts in a game
62pts in three quarters
42pts in 1st half
55pts in 2nd half
30pts in one quarter
12 threes in one game
9 threes without a miss in a game
8 threes in one half
9 straight games with 40pts+
4 straight games with 50pts+
27 games with 40pts+ in a season
10 games with 50pts+ in a season
4th player ever with a 35pt+ season average
5th player ever with a 2800pt+ season
1st player ever to outscore a team through 3 quarters
1st player ever with a 2800pt 180 three season

THE 50+PT GAMES:

Kobe-51pts 8ast 7reb vd GSW 99-00
Kobe-56pts 5ast 4reb vs Mem 00-01
Kobe-51pts 2ast 2reb vs Den 02-03
Kobe-52pts 7ast 8reb vs Hou 02-03
Kobe-55pts 3ast 5reb vs Was 02-03
Kobe-62pts 0ast 8reb vs Dal 05-06
Kobe-50pts 8ast 8reb vs Lac 05-06
Kobe-51pts 4ast 9reb vs Sac 05-06
Kobe-81pts 2ast 5reb vs Tor 05-06
Kobe-51pts 3ast 5reb vs Pho 05-06
Kobe-50pts 1ast 6reb vs Por 05-06
Kobe-50pts 5ast 8reb vs Pho 05-06
Kobe-52pts 4ast 4reb vs UTA 06-07
Kobe-53pts 8ast 10reb vs Hou 06-07
Kobe-58pts 4ast 5reb vs Cha 06-07
Kobe-65pts 3ast 7reb vs Por 06-07
Kobe-50pts 6ast 5reb vs Min 06-07
Kobe-60pts 5ast 3reb vs Mem 06-07
Kobe-50pts 7ast 6reb vs NO 06-07
Kobe-53pts 2ast 2reb vs Hou 06-07
Kobe-50pts ast 9reb vs Lac 06-07
Kobe-50pts 3ast 8reb vs Sea 06-07
Kobe-52pts 4ast 11reb vs Dal 07-08
Kobe-53pts ast 7reb vs Mem 07-08
Kobe-61pts 3ast 0reb vs Nyk 08-09

Not to mention
13 straight games with 35+ points
4 straight games with 45+ points (separate streak)

56 points against Memphis through 3 quarters. 61 points against New York in 37 minutes.

The only player in NBA history to score 60+ twice in under 40 minutes played!



KILLER INSTINCT....

List of Kobe's notable game-winners:

1) 05/09/99 - Lakers 101, Rockets 100 (playoffs, game-winning FTs with 5.3 seconds remaining)
2) 12/27/99 - Lakers 108, Mavericks 106 (game-winning FTs)
3) 05/10/00 - Lakers 97, Phoenix 96 (playoffs, jumper over Jason Kidd)
4) 11/16/00 - Lakers 112, Kings 110 (game-tying three for OT, OT jumper for win)
5) 02/07/01 - Lakers 85, Phoenix 83 (jumper with 2.7 seconds remaining)
6) 02/13/01 - Lakers 113, Nets 110 (OT game-winning layup with the And-1)
7) 01/02/02 - Lakers 87, Nuggets 86 (offensive reb and jumper)
8) 02/22/02 - Lakers 96, Hornets 94 (first career buzzer-beater, jumper)
9) 03/24/02 - Lakers 97, Kings 96 (fade-away jumper, 36 seconds remaining)
10) 05/12/02 - Lakers 87, Spurs 85 (playoffs, offensive rebound and put-back)
11) 12/06/02 - Lakers 105, Mavericks 103 (28-point game comeback, spin-around jumper)
12) 04/04/03 - Lakers 102, Grizzlies 101 (buzzer-beater, jumper)
13) 04/06/03 - Lakers 115, Suns 113 (GW jumper with 28.6 seconds remaining)
14) 12/19/03 - Lakers 101, Nuggets 99 (game after the trial, buzzer-beating fade-away)
15) 02/17/04 - Lakers 89, Blazers 86 (layup and the foul)
16) 03/21/04 - Lakers 104, Bucks 103 (OT jumper with 25 seconds remaining)
17) 04/14/04 - Lakers 105, Blazers 104 (game-tying three for OT, OT GW buzzer-beating three)
18) 03/13/05 - Lakers 117, Bobcats 116 (pump fake jumper for the win)
19) 11/02/05 - Lakers 99, Nuggets 97 (OT jumper after the Kwame brick)
20) 12/04/05 - Lakers 99, Bobcats 98 (game-winning FTs)
21) 01/12/06 - Lakers 99, Cavaliers 98 (jumper against Lebron with 8 seconds to go)
22) 04/30/06 - Lakers 99, Suns 98 (playoffs, game-tying tear drop for OT, and OT game-winning jumper)
23) 01/14/08 - Lakers 123, Sonics 121 (OT game-winning jumper)
24) 01/09/09 - Lakers 121, Pacers 119 (jumper against Jarrett Jack with 3 seconds to go)
25) 12/04/09 - Lakers 108, Heat 107 (game-winning buzzer-beating three over Wade)
26) 12/16/09 - Lakers 107, Bucks 106 (game-winning buzzer-beating jumper over Bell)
27) 01/01/10 - Lakers 109, Kings 108 (game-winning buzzer-beating three, 4.1 seconds left and 0.1 remaining)
28) 01/13/10 - Lakers 100, Mavericks 95 (game-winning jumper with 28.9 seconds remaining)
29) 01/31/10 - Lakers 90, Celtics 89 (game-winning jumper with 7 secs remaining)
30) 02/23/10 - Lakers 99, Grizzlies 98 (game-winning jumper with 4.3 seconds remaining)
31) 03/10/10 - Lakers 109, Raptors 107 (game-winning fade-away with 1.9 seconds remaining)

TOTAL CAREER PLAYOFF POINTS LIST TOP 10:
1.Michael Jordan 5987
2.Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 5762
3.Shaquille O'Neal 5121
4.Kobe Bryant 5052
5.Karl Malone 4761
6.Jerry West 4457
7.Larry Bird 3897
8.John Havlicek 3776
9.Hakeem Olajuwon 3755
10.Tim Duncan 3724



Conclusion: Kobe is eaisly top 10. Anyone who dosen't think so has blind hatred or dosen't have a clue on comparing/ranking players or has some double standards when making an all-time list.

Damn all of those accomplishments and he's still not better then Hakeem or Duncan

:roll:

[PurpleChuck]

Damn all of those accomplishments and he's still not better then Hakeem or Duncan

:roll:

Okay, you just initiated war against TheLogo, Bladers, griffmoney and Desperado of coz.

[Yung D-Will]

Okay, you just initiated war against TheLogo, Bladers, griffmoney and Desperado of coz.


When Kobe puts up a finals series like what Duncan put up in 03 and what Hakeem put up in 94 maybe I'll actually care about what they have to say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nejQMtkyLgY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr9ZjRl14ck

[Bring-Your-Js]

:roll: Dude, I'm not being serious, its just the two Kobe homers do the exact same thing when comparing Jordan to Kobe, diminish his accomplishments and point out a guy with far less accolades as his equal or better.:banana:

:oldlol:

thanks alot, bastard. I thought that came off very fishy and way too blunt, coming from you.

I don't know where kobe is at all-time in regards to pure scoring, but he's definitely at or near the top of his era. the two scoring titles could be better, leading in total points four times isn't bad. In all time context, i'd have to consider that kobe's had three 30+ ppg while Jordan had 8, Chamberlain 7 and even the Big O had 6. Kareem has the all-time lead @ high efficiency. Malone endured and played at any extremely high rate forever. Shaq, while having no 30 ppg seasons was ridiculously dominant. Kobe has the opportunity to move up as high as 6th in all time scoring with another 2200 pt season. It definitely says something of his explosiveness to be behind only Chamberlain and Jordan in 40-50-60 games.. Would that be fair? "Most explosive scorer of his era"? Arguably the 3rd most explosive scoring machine behind Wilt and MJ? There has to be a way to quantify these ridiculous games he's had because they're hardly isolated incidents. They're frequent and multiple.

[PurpleChuck]

When Kobe puts up a finals series like what Duncan put up in 03 and what Hakeem put up in 94 maybe I'll actually care about what they have to say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nejQMtkyLgY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr9ZjRl14ck

I'm just sayin', I'm accustomed to always avoid trolls. So yeah...

But I agree on Duncan tho.:cheers:

[Desperado]

When Kobe puts up a finals series like what Duncan put up in 03 and what Hakeem put up in 94 maybe I'll actually care about what they have to say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nejQMtkyLgY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr9ZjRl14ck


http://i28.tinypic.com/6h0p78.jpg

[Apocalyptic0n3]

Even better question: Why does it matter what his rank is?

Better yet: Where the hell is Walter Hermann on the Top 10 GOAT list?

[magnax1]

http://i28.tinypic.com/6h0p78.jpg
Creativity. Go get some of it.

[Bring-Your-Js]

Damn all of those accomplishments and he's still not better then Hakeem or Duncan

:roll:

Definitely doesn't hurt though. :applause:

[PurpleChuck]

Creativity. Go get some of it.

Lol.

This picture and the one with Kobe holding up his knuckle are the only weapons Kobe trolls have. Funny.:oldlol:

[Yung D-Will]

http://i28.tinypic.com/6h0p78.jpg

All that and he's still not better then Duncan or Hakeem?

How mad must you be?

[Desperado]

All that and he's still not better then Duncan or Hakeem?

How mad must you be?

Maybe too you.

Sorry, but your opinions aren't irrefutable facts.

[Yung D-Will]

Maybe too you.

Sorry, but your opinions aren't irrefutable facts.


I just find it funny :roll:

[PurpleChuck]

I just find it funny :roll:

In fact me too.

Yes Kobe's is t10 all time. But face facts please.

[Desperado]

I just find it funny :roll:

What that your opinions aren't scientific facts?

[Yung D-Will]

What that your opinions aren't scientific facts?

No ,that the guy who makes 95% of his homerish claims on bullshit about Kobe and Jordan and states them as facts is telling me this.

:roll:

[Rose]

All that and he's still not better then Duncan or Hakeem?

How mad must you be?
:lol :lol :lol :lol :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :roll: :roll:
totally ownage.

[SsKSpurs21]

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Wilt
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Hakeem

If Kobe wins another title next year while playing at elite level I might consider moving him ahead of Shaq & Duncan.

agree with everything here. 1 more and i think kobe jumps over shaq and duncan.

[Bring-Your-Js]

agree with everything here. 1 more and i think kobe jumps over shaq and duncan.

People will drag out the impact argument till the very end. I swear Kobe could be sitting on 32,000 career points, 7 titles and 4 FMVPs and people will still have him below Hakeem and Shaq.

[Yung D-Will]

People will drag out the impact argument till the very end. I swear Kobe could be sitting on 32,000 career points, 7 titles and 4 FMVPs and people will still have him below Hakeem and Shaq.

Kobe wins another title I'll put him over Duncan,Hakeem and Shaq.

[Bring-Your-Js]

I always got the impression that Kobe needed to "win one without Shaq"? And that once he did, it would serve as validation for his first 3 rings? Well, he's won twice without Shaq and now the argument is he can't do it without Gasol. People are actually comparing Shaq to a fringe all-star power forward. "He can't win without a big man". Tell me, when has Bryant ever had a Hall of Fame wing player to facilitate the triangle, dominate defensively and allow him to focus primarily on attacking the defense? Once upon a time in the 90s, this was the scenario with another well known team and duo.