Arvydas Sabonis

[nbacardDOTnet]

I came across Sabonis Highlights @ NBA.com for a while ago.

http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_tv/2010/09/09/20100909_arvydas_sabonis_highlights.nba/?ls=iref:nbahpt2


Last Topics (no order)


Arvydas Sabonis owning David Robinson
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=80841



NBA MatchUp: Arvydas Sabonis Vs Yao Ming
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36815&page=12



Vlade Divac or Arvydas Sabonis
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=144775&page=13


The REAL Arvydas Sabonis-Before Injuries 1986
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=149542



http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/1%20Portland%20Trail%20Blazers/Arvydas%20Sabonis/-muggsyboguesisblockedbysabonis.jpg
Muggsy Bogues ('')

[Yung D-Will]

He just got put in the international hall of fame?

[nbacardDOTnet]

He just got put in the international hall of fame?

don't know about that.

But I just found Blazers made Sabonis ' album.

http://www.iamatrailblazersfan.com/Home/Photos/OfficialGalleryAlbum/tabid/165/GalleryView/AlbumSSP/AlbumID/132545/GalleryID/23794/Default.aspx

http://www.nba.com/blazers/

[Yung D-Will]

[QUOTE]GENEVA

[nbacardDOTnet]

http://www.portlandtribune.com/sports/story.php?story_id=128231935435061300

wow Aug 20th. I didn't know that. Thanks.


anyway NBA.com uploaded video too late. :lol


BTW, I appended Sabonis Video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hI6w7-mGnxk

[PaPaK]

best center ever

[Toizumi]

best center ever

lol, we'll never know...

[PaPaK]

name a better center. Shaq? in real basketball he would foul out in the first quarter

[Lakas Fan Yo]

He just got put in the international hall of fame?

The FIBA hall off fame standards are way higher than the basketball hall of fame standards. Only one person has ever been voted in unanimously to the FIBA hall.

[Sakkreth]

He makes me proud to be lithuanian, i've finished basketball school named after him in Lithuania.

[Yung D-Will]

The FIBA hall off fame standards are way higher than the basketball hall of fame standards. Only one person has ever been voted in unanimously to the FIBA hall.

What's your point?

[Go Getter]

name a better center. Shaq? in real basketball he would foul out in the first quarter

Sabonis was great but not as great as the Dream, Wilt, or KAJ.

[PaPaK]

thats arguable, you cant really choose the best center or even rank players from different times/leagues, for me personally Sabonis is the best, and im basing this on limited footage that i have seen of all those players you mentioned..

best passer, best shot on him, freak of nature in terms of athletic ability, definitely the best basketball IQ..

[Lakas Fan Yo]

Totally overrated by NBA fans.

[Go Getter]

thats arguable, you cant really choose the best center or even rank players from different times/leagues, for me personally Sabonis is the best, and im basing this on limited footage that i have seen of all those players you mentioned..

best passer, best shot on him, freak of nature in terms of athletic ability, definitely the best basketball IQ..
Funny how you say you haven't seen the guys I posted but Sabonis is DEFINITELY better in terms of IQ.

[PaPaK]

Ive seen limited footage, you know, coz i wasnt even alive when they played :rolleyes:

and definitely as in my my opinion, im not claiming its the word of god

[SsKSpurs21]

what i remember best about sabonis was that laser shot he had outside 15 feet! that thing had no arch yet he nailed it every time!

to me, he was dirk with a great post game.

[PaPaK]

Sabonis was 7 foot 3 and nearly 300lb, taller & heavier than Wilt, KAJ, Olajuwon, taller than Shaq but weighted a little less

[wang4three]

The FIBA hall off fame standards are way higher than the basketball hall of fame standards. Only one person has ever been voted in unanimously to the FIBA hall.

A lack of unanimous voting recipients does not necessarily equate to higher standards.

[PaPaK]

check out this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XoeRs8HmME&feature=related

its the FIBA WC 1986 semis, USSR is playing Yugoslavia, Yugoslavia leads 9 points with about 1 minute before the end of the game and USSR ties it and goes on to win in overtime. USSR hits 3 three pointers, the first one is by Sabonis at the start of the clip, Yugoslavia ****s up, Vlade Divac loses the ball at the end with a travel, he was 18 at the time. Drazen Petrovic was a part of that team too.. The USSR had another freak center along with Sabonis, Vladimir Tkachenko who was 7 foot 3 250lb, they bascially ahd the twin towers..

team USA beat USSR 87 to 85 in the finals with this team

* 1986 World Championship: finished 1st among 24 teams

David Robinson, Rony Seikaly, Sean Elliott, Steve Kerr, Tyrone "Muggsy" Bogues, Brian Shaw, Charles D. Smith, Kenny Smith, Derrick McKey, Tommy Amaker, Tom Hammonds, Armon Gilliam (Coach: Lute Olson)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FIBA_World_Championship

[nbacardDOTnet]

what i remember best about sabonis was that laser shot he had outside 15 feet! that thing had no arch yet he nailed it every time!

to me, he was dirk with a great post game.

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/1%20Draft%20n%20Trade/1995%20NBA%20Draft/VS/32.gif

[Go Getter]

Ive seen limited footage, you know, coz i wasnt even alive when they played :rolleyes:

and definitely as in my my opinion, im not claiming its the word of god


If you are old enough to see Sabonis play you are old enough to have watched Hakeem....but I get you man.

[PaPaK]

in 96-97 he hit 49 three pointers with 37% accuracy, while Dirk hits around 80 per season on average, with 38% average

Hakeen was great but i prefer Sabo.. better shot, better passer, greater physicals presence, both had awesome post moves

[Go Getter]

in 96-97 he hit 49 three pointers with 37% accuracy, while Dirk hits around 80 per season on average, with 38% average

Hakeen was great but i prefer Sabo.. better shot, better passer, greater physicals presence, both had awesome post moves

Better outside shot yes but from in close give me Hakeem.

Also Hakeem was much more imposing he was a far better shot blocker than Sabonis....and Hakeem had the handle of a much smaller man and the best footwork I have ever seen on a guy that tall.

I'm not sure how prime Dream would have stacked up with [healthy knees] Sabonis but I do know that it would have been an epic matchup.:cheers:

[PaPaK]

true

[Harison]

Loved Sabas in his prime, definitely one of the best centers, ever. Too bad most in US missed it, even old and broken he was solid player in NBA, imagine what he could do in the prime, DRob could testify :cheers:

[Lebron23]

name a better center. Shaq? in real basketball he would foul out in the first quarter


You are a dumb ass. You easily forget that a 22 yrs.old Shaquille O'Neal won the 1994 FIBA World MVP.

Sabonis was a good basketball player, but he's not as good as Hakeem and Shaq.

[Go Getter]

You are a dumb ass. You easily forget that a 22 yrs.old Shaquille O'Neal won the 1994 FIBA World MVP.

Sabonis was a good basketball player, but he's not as good as Hakeem and Shaq.


Ouch.

[SinJackal]

best center ever

What? :facepalm

Wilt, Russel, Jabaar, Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Mourning, etc. I would be shocked if he was even a top 10.

Sabonis is becoming the Len Bias of centers. The huge "what if", except in this case, it's, "what if" he played in the NBA sooner. Nothing more than speculative statements that can't be proven.

Let's not forget the guy went back to the euroleague after he was a lame 6/4, 15 min a game player in the NBA. . .and won the MVP. The standards over there aren't exactly that high. Tiago Splitter just won the Spanish League MVP, and his stats were laughable.

[PaPaK]

what a ****ing ignorant ****. there is more to basketball than the NBA you do realize that? and you do realize that Sabonis was still a decent player in the NBA as a 31 year old with shattered knees, even as a 35 year old he got to the western conference finals with the Blazers, you do realize that?

Its not a "what if", the guy was dominant, easily the best European player ever even compared to Petrovic, Nowitzki, Divac etc. Its not a "what if" if you watched him play which i know for a fact you didnt otherwise you wouldnt sound like a ****ing moron

yeah lets not forget he went back to Euroleague.. AS A 39 YEAR OLD where he led his team to the top 16 stage and was named the regular season MVP.

The others you mentioned are arguably better but he was ****ing better than Russel, Robinson, Ewing and Mourning

[PaPaK]

and yes in my opinion he was the best center ever, i stand by that and many others will agree

[PaPaK]

You are a dumb ass. You easily forget that a 22 yrs.old Shaquille O'Neal won the 1994 FIBA World MVP.

Sabonis was a good basketball player, but he's not as good as Hakeem and Shaq.
yeah that was back when he couldnt move players out of the way with his ass so i respect that. i rate Shaq above MJ in terms of dominance but dont tell me Sabonis was as good as him or Hakeem coz he was Edit: and better in many facets of the game, shooting, passing, ball handling, basketball IQ..

[Sarcastic]

Sabonis was an extremely skilled shooter and passer, but he is far from GOAT center.

I wish he came to the NBA in his prime so we could get a better idea of how he would fare against the best competition, but he didn't.

[Go Getter]

what a ****ing ignorant ****. there is more to basketball than the NBA you do realize that? and you do realize that Sabonis was still a decent player in the NBA as a 31 year old with shattered knees, even as a 35 year old he got to the western conference finals with the Blazers, you do realize that?

Its not a "what if", the guy was dominant, easily the best European player ever even compared to Petrovic, Nowitzki, Divac etc. Its not a "what if" if you watched him play which i know for a fact you didnt otherwise you wouldnt sound like a ****ing moron

yeah lets not forget he went back to Euroleague.. AS A 39 YEAR OLD where he led his team to the top 16 stage and was named the regular season MVP.

The others you mentioned are arguably better but he was ****ing better than Russel, Robinson, Ewing and Mourning


Dude calm down it's not that serious.

[PaPaK]

Sabonis was an extremely skilled shooter and passer, but he is far from GOAT center.

I wish he came to the NBA in his prime so we could get a better idea of how he would fare against the best competition, but he didn't.
he shat all over david robinson in the 80s and drob went on to average like 25 and 12 in his rookie year.. you can imagine what SAabas would do. he proved himself enough, olympics, euro championships, world championships, euroleague even in the nba, if you watched him play you should be able to draw some logical conclusions

on the other hand if you only look at his stats in the nba like some retards do you will sound like a moron. cough jackal /cough

[PaPaK]

Dude calm down it's not that serious.
i get annoyed when people use stats to compare players, especially when its the stats of a 35 year old you know what i mean

sometimes you gotta put the noobs in their place

[Sarcastic]

he shat all over david robinson in the 80s and drob went on to average like 25 and 12 in his rookie year.. you can imagine what SAabas would do. he proved himself enough, olympics, euro championships, world championships, euroleague even in the nba, if you watched him play you should be able to draw some logical conclusions

on the other hand if you only look at his stats in the nba like some retards do you will sound like a moron. cough jackal /cough

Just because he did good in international competition for a few weeks, does not mean that he can dominate the NBA for a full season.

I think Sabonis in his prime would be a great player and be an All Star. I don't think he would be better than Olajuwon, Robinson, or Ewing over the course of an entire season though.

[Go Getter]

Hey do you man put em in their place just don't bust a brain vein while you're at it:oldlol:

:rockon:

[PaPaK]

Hey do you man put em in their place just don't bust a brain vein while you're at it:oldlol:

:rockon:
doing it for the sake of the forum :D


Just because he did good in international competition for a few weeks, does not mean that he can dominate the NBA for a full season.

I think Sabonis in his prime would be a great player and be an All Star. I don't think he would be better than Olajuwon, Robinson, or Ewing over the course of an entire season though.
why do you think that? Sabas was as athletic as those guys if not more, he was a freak of nature in terms of physical attributes pretty sure he could handle 80 games

and please dont compare him to Ewing lol

[Sarcastic]

Can you please show me a link where I can see Sabonis' stats in whatever leagues he played in?

[Harison]

Just because he did good in international competition for a few weeks, does not mean that he can dominate the NBA for a full season.

I think Sabonis in his prime would be a great player and be an All Star. I don't think he would be better than Olajuwon, Robinson, or Ewing over the course of an entire season though.
Think about it - old and broken Sabonis could solidly play all season in the NBA, with Playoffs after, but you doubt he could do that as young and healthy? I saw him play in prime, and if you dont value fans opinion, look up what players themselves say:

Pippen said Sabonis was "the best European basketball player to ever play the game".

Sean Elliott routinely claimed that Arvydas "should be in the conversation as one of the greatest centers ever".

Hall of Famer Bill Walton describes "Sabas" as "the greatest passing center of all time".

Dino Radja, said that Sabonis would have been an all-star "ten times over" had he played his healthy years in the States.

[PaPaK]

http://www.euroleague.net/competition/players/showplayer?pcode=AYO&seasoncode=E2003+++++

these are his stats as a 39-40 year old, but you gotta take into account that the scores are lower in europe and the match is 40 min. long and so on.. also people dont really care about individual stats

cant find his stats for pre nba but he got shitloads of awards

* 1984, 1985, 1988, 1995, 1997, 1999 European Player of the Year
* 1985, 1997 Mr. Europa Player of the Year
* 1985 European Championship MVP
* 1993, 1994 Spanish League Finals MVP
* 1994, 1995 Spanish League MVP
* 1995 Euroleague Final Four MVP

[TheLogo]

I have to admit that Sabonis would have held his own in his prime. People remember the Sabonis of Portland who was a shell of his prime days.

It's one of those what if's.....

[Psileas]

Just because he did good in international competition for a few weeks, does not mean that he can dominate the NBA for a full season.

I think Sabonis in his prime would be a great player and be an All Star. I don't think he would be better than Olajuwon, Robinson, or Ewing over the course of an entire season though.

Actually, he didn't generally dominate Robinson as much as people make it seem, if at all. They are hooked by the 2 minutes of that famous Youtube video from 1986, which, among else, includes a play with Sabonis commiting a clear offensive foul while dunking on Robinson, as well as commiting a goal-tending. Of course, nobody mentions that USA won the game. Or that Sabonis, despite being roughly the same age with Robinson, was much closer to his physical prime than Robinson was to his.

Then, people mention the '88 Olympics as another personal victory for Sabonis. Of course they will not tell you that Sabonis scored only 3 points in the second half or that he finished the game with 13/12 while Robinson had 19/12 on less playing time. Or that plays like these ever existed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbUZWx5n0hw#t=3m20s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAms-U7H3AI#t=53s (Robinson moving to the perimeter, stealing the ball, then drawing the foul by Sabonis)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_9I3yCFypw#t=2m25s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_9I3yCFypw#t=4m45s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SziLI8uRJhU#t=1m28s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLGwv6UICIA#t=7m1s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qveApg1A8Es#t=1m21s

Or that elite NBAers have lost personal battles against international stars and nobody said anything. Jasicevicius in a couple of games killed elite NBA guards, therefore he must have been better than them. Michael Jordan once scored only 4 points against Puerto Rico, so they must had become the team that figured him out. Duncan lost battles in 2004. Arroyo owned NBA guards in 2004.

I'll take Sabonis' actual NBA career as a much stronger indicator than 1 or 2 international competition games. At his age and for his playing time, he didn't do bad at all.

1995-96 31 POR NBA 73 21 23.8 5.4 9.9 .545 0.5 1.4 .375 3.2 4.2 .757 2.0 6.0 8.1 1.8 0.9 1.1 2.1 2.9 14.5
1996-97 32 POR NBA 69 68 25.5 4.8 9.5 .498 0.7 1.9 .371 3.2 4.2 .777 1.7 6.3 7.9 2.1 0.9 1.2 2.2 2.9 13.4
1997-98 33 POR NBA 73 73 32.0 5.6 11.3 .493 0.4 1.6 .261 4.4 5.5 .798 2.0 7.9 10.0 3.0 0.9 1.1 2.6 3.7 16.0
1998-99 34 POR NBA 50 48 27.0 4.6 9.6 .485 0.1 0.5 .292 2.7 3.5 .771 1.8 6.1 7.9 2.4 0.7 1.3 1.7 2.9 12.1
1999-00 35 POR NBA 66 61 25.6 4.6 9.1 .505 0.1 0.3 .368 2.5 3.0 .843 1.5 6.3 7.8 1.8 0.7 1.2 1.5 2.8 11.8
2000-01 36 POR NBA 61 42 21.3 4.0 8.5 .479 0.0 0.2 .067 2.0 2.6 .776 0.8 4.6 5.4 1.5 0.7 1.0 1.4 2.2 10.1
2002-03 38 POR NBA 78 1 15.5 2.2 4.6 .476 0.0 0.1 .500 1.7 2.1 .787 1.1 3.2 4.3 1.8 0.8 0.6 1.0 1.8 6.1

But did he do better than Ewing at the same age?

1993-94 31 NYK NBA 79 79 37.6 9.4 19.0 .496 0.1 0.2 .286 5.6 7.4 .765 2.8 8.4 11.2 2.3 1.1 2.7 3.3 3.5 24.5
1994-95 32 NYK NBA 79 79 37.0 9.2 18.4 .503 0.1 0.3 .286 5.3 7.1 .750 2.0 9.0 11.0 2.7 0.9 2.0 3.2 3.4 23.9
1995-96 33 NYK NBA 76 76 36.6 8.9 19.2 .466 0.1 0.4 .143 4.6 6.1 .761 2.1 8.5 10.6 2.1 0.9 2.4 2.9 3.3 22.5
1996-97 34 NYK NBA 78 78 37.0 8.4 17.2 .488 0.0 0.1 .222 5.6 7.5 .754 2.2 8.4 10.7 2.0 0.9 2.4 3.4 3.2 22.4
1997-98 35 NYK NBA 26 26 32.6 7.8 15.5 .504 0.0 0.1 .000 5.2 7.2 .720 2.3 7.9 10.2 1.1 0.6 2.2 3.0 2.8 20.8
1998-99 36 NYK NBA 38 38 34.2 6.5 14.9 .435 0.0 0.1 .000 4.3 6.1 .706 1.9 8.0 9.9 1.1 0.8 2.6 2.6 2.8 17.3
1999-00 37 NYK NBA 62 62 32.8 5.8 12.5 .466 0.0 0.0 .000 3.3 4.6 .731 2.3 7.5 9.7 0.9 0.6 1.4 2.3 3.2 15.0
2000-01 38 SEA NBA 79 79 26.7 3.7 8.7 .430 0.0 0.0 .000 2.2 3.2 .685 1.6 5.8 7.4 1.2 0.7 1.2 1.9 2.9 9.6

Or than Robinson?

1996-97 31 SAS NBA 6 6 24.5 6.0 12.0 .500 0.0 0.0 5.7 8.7 .654 3.2 5.3 8.5 1.3 1.0 1.0 1.3 1.5 17.7
1997-98 32 SAS NBA 73 73 33.7 7.5 14.6 .511 0.0 0.1 .250 6.6 9.0 .735 3.3 7.3 10.6 2.7 0.9 2.6 2.8 2.8 21.6
1998-99 33 SAS NBA 49 49 31.7 5.5 10.8 .509 0.0 0.0 .000 4.9 7.4 .658 3.0 7.0 10.0 2.1 1.4 2.4 2.2 2.9 15.8
1999-00 34 SAS NBA 80 80 32.0 6.6 12.9 .512 0.0 0.0 .000 4.6 6.4 .726 2.4 7.2 9.6 1.8 1.2 2.3 2.1 3.1 17.8
2000-01 35 SAS NBA 80 80 29.6 5.0 10.3 .486 0.0 0.0 .000 4.4 5.9 .747 2.6 6.0 8.6 1.5 1.0 2.5 1.5 2.7 14.4
2001-02 36 SAS NBA 78 78 29.5 4.4 8.6 .507 0.0 0.0 3.4 5.1 .681 2.4 5.8 8.3 1.2 1.1 1.8 1.3 2.5 12.2
2002-03 37 SAS NBA 64 64 26.2 3.1 6.6 .469 0.0 0.0 2.4 3.3 .710 2.5 5.4 7.9 1.0 0.8 1.7 1.3 2.0 8.5

Of course, it's well known that Ewing, especially after '97, was not exactly a health freak, while Robinson missed almost the whole '97 season and never returned to top form after that.

[magnax1]

I just got done watching a few Sabonis games from the 80's, and I can see someone ranking him up there with Kareem, Wilt and the other greats in their primes, career wise he definitely isn't near those guys, but he was very dominant in his peak. He probably would've been the best player in the league during the late 80's.

[Psileas]

In the late 80's, Drazen Petrovic and Nikos Galis were considered the 2 best players in Europe (or, at worst, 2 of the best 3, without Sabonis standing out compared to them), considering that Yugoslavia was dominant as always and Greece won one gold and one silver European medal, beating USSR twice (once with Sabonis playing). Given that, I'd bet Sabonis would surely not be considered the best player in the NBA.

PS. Why haven't ever been any topics about Ralph Sampson being potentially the GOAT if his knees didn't fail him? Is it because Sabonis was 300 lbs and Sampson wasn't?

[Bodhi]

I just got done watching a few Sabonis games from the 80's, and I can see someone ranking him up there with Kareem, Wilt and the other greats in their primes, career wise he definitely isn't near those guys, but he was very dominant in his peak. He probably would've been the best player in the league during the late 80's.

Maybe the best center, but Jordan, Magic, and Bird were pretty good during the late 80s.

[ZenMaster]

In the late 80's, Drazen Petrovic and Nikos Galis were considered the 2 best players in Europe (or, at worst, 2 of the best 3, without Sabonis standing out compared to them), considering that Yugoslavia was dominant as always and Greece won one gold and one silver European medal, beating USSR twice (once with Sabonis playing). Given that, I'd bet Sabonis would surely not be considered the best player in the NBA.

PS. Why haven't ever been any topics about Ralph Sampson being potentially the GOAT if his knees didn't fail him? Is it because Sabonis was 300 lbs and Sampson wasn't?

Because threads don't create themselves.

[steve]

In the late 80's, Drazen Petrovic and Nikos Galis were considered the 2 best players in Europe (or, at worst, 2 of the best 3, without Sabonis standing out compared to them), considering that Yugoslavia was dominant as always and Greece won one gold and one silver European medal, beating USSR twice (once with Sabonis playing). Given that, I'd bet Sabonis would surely not be considered the best player in the NBA.

PS. Why haven't ever been any topics about Ralph Sampson being potentially the GOAT if his knees didn't fail him? Is it because Sabonis was 300 lbs and Sampson wasn't?
I think partially has to with who Sampson was as a player. Even before injuries plagued him, it was quite clear the Sampson had a self constructed ceiling. Basketball has never seen a player like Sampson in terms of skill level and size, but ultimately I think it boils down to Sampson not really wanting to be the best.

Sabonis is a bit more of an unknown, but he also seemed to have a fire and toughness in him that Sampson lacked. Plus growing up in USSR occupied Lithuania creates a different breed of person.

Sabonis also probably wouldn't have been the best player in the NBA. But if a 33 year old Sabonis can put up 16/10/3 with solid playing time on shot knees, it's not too big of a stretch to think that he would've been among the elite centers in the late 80s and early 90s and challenging Olajuwon, Robinson, and Ewing for first team All-NBA accolades.

Regardless, it's still all speculation.

[AirJordan23]

He probably would've been the best player in the league during the late 80's.
yeah, you're pretty much a f*cking retard.

:oldlol: @ him being better than shaq, hakeem and robinson. i see that people here don't value defense that much. his postdefense was excellent due to his upper body strength but thats about it. not the type of guy who could anchor a defense. overall impact doesnt come close to those guys.


But if a 33 year old Sabonis can put up 16/10/3 with solid playing time on shot knees, it's not too big of a stretch to think that he would've been among the elite centers in the late 80s and early 90s and challenging Olajuwon, Robinson, and Ewing for first team All-NBA accolades
I see that hakeem was putting up 27/11/4/2/3 as a 33 year old, drob 22/11/3/3 while taking a backseat to duncan and ewing putting up 23/11/2/2. all these guys had their fare share of injuries in the past. how's that supposed to impress me? keep in my mind that durability can be used against sabonis because sabonis couldnt play heavy minutes due to his playing style. so you cant say if sabonis played as many minutes as those guys, he would've produced just as much.

[bdreason]

Sabonis was a great player, but placing him in the same category as guys like Kareem, Hakeem, Jordan, etc. based on speculation about what he might have done in the NBA is laughable at best.

[magnax1]

Maybe the best center, but Jordan, Magic, and Bird were pretty good during the late 80s.
He would've been better then Magic, better then Bird after his injury. Jordan would've been better though, obviously.

[Harison]

Actually, he didn't generally dominate Robinson as much as people make it seem, if at all. They are hooked by the 2 minutes of that famous Youtube video from 1986
Whats your agenda? You clearly dont like Sabonis, and no, I'm not "hooked by the 2 minutes of that famous Youtube video" because I saw most of Sabonis games in his prime. Anyone who saw his match-up vs DRob had no illusions who was better, Sabas toyed with him, and this was confirmed by other players and DRob himself. Want to hide behind obscure stats? You should know better than to rely on stats only, they say only part of the picture.



Or that elite NBAers have lost personal battles against international stars and nobody said anything. Jasicevicius in a couple of games killed elite NBA guards, therefore he must have been better than them. Michael Jordan once scored only 4 points against Puerto Rico, so they must had become the team that figured him out. Duncan lost battles in 2004. Arroyo owned NBA guards in 2004.

I'll take Sabonis' actual NBA career as a much stronger indicator than 1 or 2 international competition games. At his age and for his playing time, he didn't do bad at all.
Funny how you started this so wrong and got something reasonable in the end - game or two doesnt matter as much as more games, yet we have Sabas dominating in Europe in his prime, and still doing good as an old guy with the bad legs in the NBA, yet you doubt he would be doing amazing as a young and a healthy guy in the NBA? :facepalm



But did he do better than Ewing at the same age?
<skip>
Of course, it's well known that Ewing, especially after '97, was not exactly a health freak, while Robinson missed almost the whole '97 season and never returned to top form after that.
Same age isnt the best comparison, nor is injury severity, you also should know this by now.

[Harison]

In the late 80's, Drazen Petrovic and Nikos Galis were considered the 2 best players in Europe (or, at worst, 2 of the best 3, without Sabonis standing out compared to them), considering that Yugoslavia was dominant as always and Greece won one gold and one silver European medal, beating USSR twice (once with Sabonis playing). Given that, I'd bet Sabonis would surely not be considered the best player in the NBA.

PS. Why haven't ever been any topics about Ralph Sampson being potentially the GOAT if his knees didn't fail him? Is it because Sabonis was 300 lbs and Sampson wasn't?
Thats pure BS, before injuries Sabas was head and shoulders better than Galis and Petrovic. And in case if you missed it, basketball is a team sport, considering that, your deductions are debunked.

Much better example would be Bill Walton, and he got his MVPs, even though he didnt lasted that long. Sabas was more durable and better overall player than Walton, this should give you a hint or two.

[Psileas]

Whats your agenda? You clearly dont like Sabonis, and no, I'm not "hooked by the 2 minutes of that famous Youtube video" because I saw most of Sabonis games in his prime. Anyone who saw his match-up vs DRob had no illusions who was better, Sabas toyed with him, and this was confirmed by other players and DRob himself. Want to hide behind obscure stats? You should know better than to rely on stats only, they say only part of the picture.

First of all, I like Sabonis. What I don't like is people judging from things that only provide obscure speculation. Playing great against a later NBAer, having a great career in Europe, doing things that big men are not supposed to do like shoot 3's, run fast breaks and give behind the back passes is what leads most people to believe that Sabonis would be a GOAT candidate. Well, for me, the very short duration of his prime is an important factor. The guy was already facing injury problems in the late 80's and his style of play has a lot to do with this. If Sabonis wanted to become an NBA All-time great level of player, he would have to stop doing the things that he did and convinced people that he was clearly better than someone like Robinson. He should stick to being a center, not a 7-3 guard.


Funny how you started this so wrong and got something reasonable in the end - game or two doesnt matter as much as more games, yet we have Sabas dominating in Europe in his prime, and still doing good as an old guy with the bad legs in the NBA, yet you doubt he would be doing amazing as a young and a healthy guy in the NBA?

What? Because I don't accept the "Sabonis = Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem" speculation, I doubt he'd do great in the NBA?
Yes, Sabonis would be a perennial NBA All-Star. No, I don't think he would be a GOAT candidate. He had weak knees for his huge size, he never liked practicing and he didn't care much about defense. I can't pretend that all these would suddenly disappear if he became an NBAer in the 80's.


Same age isnt the best comparison, nor is injury severity, you also should know this by now.

Since Sabonis never was a 40 mpg player and never played in the NBA in his 20's, we have to find other ways of comparing him to all-time greats. He has a lot of alibis, in these injuries, advanced age, reduced minutes of play. You take them out and he's out of the conversation.



Thats pure BS, before injuries Sabas was head and shoulders better than Galis and Petrovic. And in case if you missed it, basketball is a team sport, considering that, your deductions are debunked.

The matter is that "before injuries" is a period that lasted too little. Little enough to make the "head and shoulders" claims bad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euroscar_Award

Sabonis won 3 awards in 5 years ('84-'88), but Galis and Petrovic also got one each. That's in his prime years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Europa

Here, he only won the award once in the same period. So, it seems, in the eyes of voters, that, even in this period, he was clearly the best in Europe only around 1985. In 1986, people voted for Petrovic, in 1987 for Galis. Not what you'd expect from arguably the GOAT center. Unless you also think that Magic or Jordan playing for the Soviets or the European clubs of Sabonis would have any chance of getting beaten by them.

Basketball is a team game, but in some crucial games, Sabonis was outplayed by his other big-name rivals and lost crucial games, like the 1989 European Semifinals or the 1986 Euroleague. Again, you'd expect better results from arguably the GOAT center playing in the land of Europeans. Sorry, I can't imagine a 25 year old Kareem playing for the Soviets and getting beaten by Greece.

[MasterDurant24]

Maybe the best center, but Jordan, Magic, and Bird were pretty good during the late 80s.
Isiah Thomas as well.

[SinJackal]

Actually, he didn't generally dominate Robinson as much as people make it seem, if at all. They are hooked by the 2 minutes of that famous Youtube video from 1986, which, among else, includes a play with Sabonis commiting a clear offensive foul while dunking on Robinson, as well as commiting a goal-tending. Of course, nobody mentions that USA won the game. Or that Sabonis, despite being roughly the same age with Robinson, was much closer to his physical prime than Robinson was to his.

Then, people mention the '88 Olympics as another personal victory for Sabonis. Of course they will not tell you that Sabonis scored only 3 points in the second half or that he finished the game with 13/12 while Robinson had 19/12 on less playing time. Or that plays like these ever existed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbUZWx5n0hw#t=3m20s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAms-U7H3AI#t=53s (Robinson moving to the perimeter, stealing the ball, then drawing the foul by Sabonis)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_9I3yCFypw#t=2m25s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_9I3yCFypw#t=4m45s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SziLI8uRJhU#t=1m28s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLGwv6UICIA#t=7m1s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qveApg1A8Es#t=1m21s

Or that elite NBAers have lost personal battles against international stars and nobody said anything. Jasicevicius in a couple of games killed elite NBA guards, therefore he must have been better than them. Michael Jordan once scored only 4 points against Puerto Rico, so they must had become the team that figured him out. Duncan lost battles in 2004. Arroyo owned NBA guards in 2004.

I'll take Sabonis' actual NBA career as a much stronger indicator than 1 or 2 international competition games. At his age and for his playing time, he didn't do bad at all.

1995-96 31 POR NBA 73 21 23.8 5.4 9.9 .545 0.5 1.4 .375 3.2 4.2 .757 2.0 6.0 8.1 1.8 0.9 1.1 2.1 2.9 14.5
1996-97 32 POR NBA 69 68 25.5 4.8 9.5 .498 0.7 1.9 .371 3.2 4.2 .777 1.7 6.3 7.9 2.1 0.9 1.2 2.2 2.9 13.4
1997-98 33 POR NBA 73 73 32.0 5.6 11.3 .493 0.4 1.6 .261 4.4 5.5 .798 2.0 7.9 10.0 3.0 0.9 1.1 2.6 3.7 16.0
1998-99 34 POR NBA 50 48 27.0 4.6 9.6 .485 0.1 0.5 .292 2.7 3.5 .771 1.8 6.1 7.9 2.4 0.7 1.3 1.7 2.9 12.1
1999-00 35 POR NBA 66 61 25.6 4.6 9.1 .505 0.1 0.3 .368 2.5 3.0 .843 1.5 6.3 7.8 1.8 0.7 1.2 1.5 2.8 11.8
2000-01 36 POR NBA 61 42 21.3 4.0 8.5 .479 0.0 0.2 .067 2.0 2.6 .776 0.8 4.6 5.4 1.5 0.7 1.0 1.4 2.2 10.1
2002-03 38 POR NBA 78 1 15.5 2.2 4.6 .476 0.0 0.1 .500 1.7 2.1 .787 1.1 3.2 4.3 1.8 0.8 0.6 1.0 1.8 6.1

But did he do better than Ewing at the same age?

1993-94 31 NYK NBA 79 79 37.6 9.4 19.0 .496 0.1 0.2 .286 5.6 7.4 .765 2.8 8.4 11.2 2.3 1.1 2.7 3.3 3.5 24.5
1994-95 32 NYK NBA 79 79 37.0 9.2 18.4 .503 0.1 0.3 .286 5.3 7.1 .750 2.0 9.0 11.0 2.7 0.9 2.0 3.2 3.4 23.9
1995-96 33 NYK NBA 76 76 36.6 8.9 19.2 .466 0.1 0.4 .143 4.6 6.1 .761 2.1 8.5 10.6 2.1 0.9 2.4 2.9 3.3 22.5
1996-97 34 NYK NBA 78 78 37.0 8.4 17.2 .488 0.0 0.1 .222 5.6 7.5 .754 2.2 8.4 10.7 2.0 0.9 2.4 3.4 3.2 22.4
1997-98 35 NYK NBA 26 26 32.6 7.8 15.5 .504 0.0 0.1 .000 5.2 7.2 .720 2.3 7.9 10.2 1.1 0.6 2.2 3.0 2.8 20.8
1998-99 36 NYK NBA 38 38 34.2 6.5 14.9 .435 0.0 0.1 .000 4.3 6.1 .706 1.9 8.0 9.9 1.1 0.8 2.6 2.6 2.8 17.3
1999-00 37 NYK NBA 62 62 32.8 5.8 12.5 .466 0.0 0.0 .000 3.3 4.6 .731 2.3 7.5 9.7 0.9 0.6 1.4 2.3 3.2 15.0
2000-01 38 SEA NBA 79 79 26.7 3.7 8.7 .430 0.0 0.0 .000 2.2 3.2 .685 1.6 5.8 7.4 1.2 0.7 1.2 1.9 2.9 9.6

Or than Robinson?

1996-97 31 SAS NBA 6 6 24.5 6.0 12.0 .500 0.0 0.0 5.7 8.7 .654 3.2 5.3 8.5 1.3 1.0 1.0 1.3 1.5 17.7
1997-98 32 SAS NBA 73 73 33.7 7.5 14.6 .511 0.0 0.1 .250 6.6 9.0 .735 3.3 7.3 10.6 2.7 0.9 2.6 2.8 2.8 21.6
1998-99 33 SAS NBA 49 49 31.7 5.5 10.8 .509 0.0 0.0 .000 4.9 7.4 .658 3.0 7.0 10.0 2.1 1.4 2.4 2.2 2.9 15.8
1999-00 34 SAS NBA 80 80 32.0 6.6 12.9 .512 0.0 0.0 .000 4.6 6.4 .726 2.4 7.2 9.6 1.8 1.2 2.3 2.1 3.1 17.8
2000-01 35 SAS NBA 80 80 29.6 5.0 10.3 .486 0.0 0.0 .000 4.4 5.9 .747 2.6 6.0 8.6 1.5 1.0 2.5 1.5 2.7 14.4
2001-02 36 SAS NBA 78 78 29.5 4.4 8.6 .507 0.0 0.0 3.4 5.1 .681 2.4 5.8 8.3 1.2 1.1 1.8 1.3 2.5 12.2
2002-03 37 SAS NBA 64 64 26.2 3.1 6.6 .469 0.0 0.0 2.4 3.3 .710 2.5 5.4 7.9 1.0 0.8 1.7 1.3 2.0 8.5

Of course, it's well known that Ewing, especially after '97, was not exactly a health freak, while Robinson missed almost the whole '97 season and never returned to top form after that.

Damn dude, you just killed that argument. Robinson was smashing and embarrassing him when he hasn't even played a single game in the NBA yet.

I just watched the video you were refering to about Sabonis and Robinson. . .and I have to say I wasn't very impressed. It was like 4 plays total, one was a goaltend, one was an obvious foul, one was just a regular rebound, and the one decent play he had (when he caught the ball off an assist and dunked), was replayed 5 times from different angles to make it seem like it was something that doesn't happen half a dozen times per game.

Then there's this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dbz0VD7pQ-8

Sabonis getting embarrassed by Robinson. ..getting rejected once after failing to shake him, forced into a bad shot (and bricking) after getting rejected, then getting the ball stolen from him and scored on by Jordan on the very next play after he grabs a board because he doesn't protect the ball. :facepalm

[Da KO King]

This guy has become basketball's Paul Bunyan.

[Maga_1]

I have to admit that Sabonis would have held his own in his prime. People remember the Sabonis of Portland who was a shell of his prime days.

It's one of those what if's.....

this

[Harison]

First of all, I like Sabonis. What I don't like is people judging from things that only provide obscure speculation. Playing great against a later NBAer, having a great career in Europe, doing things that big men are not supposed to do like shoot 3's, run fast breaks and give behind the back passes is what leads most people to believe that Sabonis would be a GOAT candidate. Well, for me, the very short duration of his prime is an important factor. The guy was already facing injury problems in the late 80's and his style of play has a lot to do with this. If Sabonis wanted to become an NBA All-time great level of player, he would have to stop doing the things that he did and convinced people that he was clearly better than someone like Robinson. He should stick to being a center, not a 7-3 guard.
How is having a great range and using it, along with an amazing court vision and great passes harms his team and shortens his career? :rolleyes: You make no sense whatsoever. His style of play helps the team tremendously, and it also has nothing to do with injuries either.



What? Because I don't accept the "Sabonis = Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem" speculation, I doubt he'd do great in the NBA?
Yes, Sabonis would be a perennial NBA All-Star. No, I don't think he would be a GOAT candidate. He had weak knees for his huge size, he never liked practicing and he didn't care much about defense. I can't pretend that all these would suddenly disappear if he became an NBAer in the 80's.
Thats your opinion only, mine is completely different. In this case I rather believe NBA players who say the same things as I do.



The matter is that "before injuries" is a period that lasted too little. Little enough to make the "head and shoulders" claims bad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euroscar_Award

Sabonis won 3 awards in 5 years ('84-'88), but Galis and Petrovic also got one each. That's in his prime years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Europa

You also dont know Sabonis suffered a devastating Achilles' tendon injury after 1985, do you really think injured player still should receive the best player award? :facepalm And he was 20 years old at that time, which we speak as a prime! How good Hakeem was at that age? Wilt and Kareem were very good as few years older, but NBA players are saying Sabonis should have been up there with them as well. Also he won 6 Euroscar's in his career, Galis only once, Petrovic 4 (until the accident).



Basketball is a team game, but in some crucial games, Sabonis was outplayed by his other big-name rivals and lost crucial games, like the 1989 European Semifinals or the 1986 Euroleague. Again, you'd expect better results from arguably the GOAT center playing in the land of Europeans. Sorry, I can't imagine a 25 year old Kareem playing for the Soviets and getting beaten by Greece.
Thats again your opinion only, one could say as well "Sabonis instead of Kareem on Bucks would have gone further than that" :oldlol: Disclaimer, I'm not saying he would have, just pointing out one player regardless how good he is, cant win it all by himself.

[Shep]

lol@this sabonis destroying robinson garbage

robinson vs sabonis:

19 (NBA) games

robinson: 17.7ppg, 10.3rpg, 2.2apg, 1.3spg, 2.7bpg
sabonis: 11.9ppg, 6.8rpg, 1.9apg, 0.8spg, 0.7bpg

what about their first meeting when sabonis was still in his "prime" years (31 years old, robinson being 30):

robinson: 20p, 21r, 2a, 2s, 8b
sabonis: 11p, 10r, 0a, 1s, 0b

oh but what about the second meeting you ask?

robinson: 39p, 9r, 3a, 3s, 8b
sabonis: 16p, 7r, 3a, 1s, 1b

these destroyings continued up until sabonis retired

[blazerjimmy]

Sabonis was easily my favorite Blazer center and I've often dreamt of a scenario where he came over earlier and played with prime Drexler, Porter, Kersey, etc with a starter-quality center of Kevin Duckworth as his backup, but it's all conjecture. Also, European standouts aren't always as relevant or effective in the NBA (Sergie Monia and Viktor Kyhrapa come to mind - both very good Euro players but struggled for my Blazers). On the flip side, a successfull NBA player isn't going to necessarily be successfull in Europe - willing to bet that Josh Childress has much better numbers playing for the Suns this season than he did in Europe (Italy right???)

I have a lot of respect for David Robinson and Hakeem Olajuwan so it would be hard for me to choose him over either of them. Sabonis was much more versatile than either Patrick Ewing or Shaq, never been a fan of either of those two or their "games". And the historical greats, Wilt, Russell and Kareem??? I just don't have enough perspective, having only read about or seen highlights.

[Psileas]

How is having a great range and using it, along with an amazing court vision and great passes harms his team and shortens his career? You make no sense whatsoever. His style of play helps the team tremendously, and it also has nothing to do with injuries either.

I didn't mention these things as negatives. Read my post again.
However, running the floor like a forward and jumping a lot while younger definitely harmed his knees. You claim you have seen his prime, so you must know what I'm talking about.


Thats your opinion only, mine is completely different. In this case I rather believe NBA players who say the same things as I do.

Everyone offers opinions and everyone's opinions have their flaws. If some trust the opinions of players, that's fine, but mind you that some of these players have not faced Sabonis at his best, others have not played enough in the NBA, almost none has faced centers older than Hakeem (a lot haven't faced Hakeem at all) and a lot lack NBA historic perspective. Because you play the game of basketball doesn't mean that you have a great grasp of history. See Shaq's choices at times for his best big men ever, see Iverson's evaluations, hell, see Jordan who picked Worthy for his all-time team. Let's not even comment about Dwight Howard. Reportedly, he didn't know who Jack Sikma was and we're supposed to hold his opinion on similar matters on high esteem? And this is a guy who will retire as a well-respected multiple-time NBA all-star.
Put a basketball player or even basketball legend and bring him to a good board's thread about the GOAT players and he'll surely get his share of comments and criticisms.

Now, what would you expect to hear from players when talking about a player that impresses them but they don't know everything about him and comparing him to players they also don't know everything about? Is it any surprising at all?

Funnily though, I've never seen anyone seriously suggest that he'd become the GOAT center. Here's a collection of quotes taken from http://www.mysticgames.com/famouspeople/ArvydasSabonis.htm:


Ex-players and current players alike contend that Sabonis, fairly unknown in the U.S., would have been recognized as one of the top centers ever to play the game of basketball had he come to America in his prime. Scottie Pippen was quoted as saying that Arvydas was "the best European basketball player to ever play the game". Ex-Spur Sean Elliott routinely claimed that Arvydas "should be in the conversation as one of the greatest centers ever". Hall of Famer Bill Walton describes "Sabas" as "the greatest passing center of all time". And Dino Radja, a former Boston Celtics player, said that Sabonis would have been an all-star "ten times over" had he played his healthy years in the States.

Brian Meehan, a columnist for The Oregonian, followed Sabonis' career over the course of decades. Recalling the 1988 Olympics, when Sabonis' Soviet team beat a United States team with the likes of David Robinson, Meehan notes one play when a healthy Sabonis reacted to a teammate's missed shot: Sabonis slashed towards the rim, jumped over Robinson, and slammed the ball home. Meehan is of the opinion that it was the play of Arvydas in the '88 Olympics that influenced Team USA to use professional players in the olympics, thus the "Dream Teams" of 1992 and 1996. Meehan ranks Sabonis as the 6th best all-time center behind, in no particular order, Hakeem Olajuwon, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Shaquille O'Neal, and Kareem Abdul-Jabaar.

So, Pippen called him the GOAT European (and that's an old quote, before Dirk managing what he did in these years). Walton called him the "best passing center ever", which is of course different than "greatest center ever". Radja said that he'd be a 10-time all-star (you don't have to be the GOAT for this. Ewing was an 11-time all-star). Meehan ranks him 6th all-time, behind the obvious top-5, and I bet he bases a lot of this on his 80's-early 90's NBA potential and unfinished business, not his actual career. Sean Elliot comes the closest to the GOAT claim.


You also dont know Sabonis suffered a devastating Achilles' tendon injury after 1985, do you really think injured player still should receive the best player award? And he was 20 years old at that time, which we speak as a prime! How good Hakeem was at that age? Wilt and Kareem were very good as few years older, but NBA players are saying Sabonis should have been up there with them as well. Also he won 6 Euroscar's in his career, Galis only once, Petrovic 4 (until the accident).

He recovered fast enough to become a premier player pretty quickly. it's not as if he disappeared from top competition.
20, while not someone's prime, is a good age for a big center to show off his mobility and all-around play, which is what Sabonis did. And again, you take an achilles tendon injury as something that happened randomly. You claim you saw Sabonis in his prime, yet you don't think that there were clear indications that, at his size and the way he was playing he would soon suffer from injuries? And that had he played in the faster, more physically demanding NBA, he wouldn't have suffered at least as much?


Thats again your opinion only, one could say as well "Sabonis instead of Kareem on Bucks would have gone further than that" Disclaimer, I'm not saying he would have, just pointing out one player regardless how good he is, cant win it all by himself.

Except, we know what Kareem did with the Bucks and we know how much better the NBA was than Europe up to the mid-90's. The Sabonis that we actually watched has no major NBA accomplishments to speak of and make equally valid assumptions as to what he'd accomplish.

[Da KO King]

Sabonis would be the best center ever. He'd average 33 pts 16 rbs 7 ast and 4 blks, while shooting 85% from the floor including 50% from three. Just to amuse himself and fans he's dunk backwards from the foul line once a game.

[CeltsGarlic]

Sabonis would be the best center ever. He'd average 33 pts 16 rbs 7 ast and 4 blks, while shooting 85% from the floor including 50% from three. Just to amuse himself and fans he's dunk backwards from the foul line once a game.


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :lol :lol :lol














not really

[Da KO King]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :lol :lol :lol



not really
Not supposed to be. Just supposed to illustrate how ridiculous the claims are. A center that could not do anything with his left hand and had basically no moves turning onto his right shoulder is not going to become one of the five greatest centers of all time.

Sabonis would have been a Brad Daugherty level center. EXTREMELY good but ultimately falls short of legendary status.

[Sakkreth]

lol@this sabonis destroying robinson garbage

robinson vs sabonis:

19 (NBA) games

robinson: 17.7ppg, 10.3rpg, 2.2apg, 1.3spg, 2.7bpg
sabonis: 11.9ppg, 6.8rpg, 1.9apg, 0.8spg, 0.7bpg

what about their first meeting when sabonis was still in his "prime" years (31 years old, robinson being 30):

robinson: 20p, 21r, 2a, 2s, 8b
sabonis: 11p, 10r, 0a, 1s, 0b

oh but what about the second meeting you ask?

robinson: 39p, 9r, 3a, 3s, 8b
sabonis: 16p, 7r, 3a, 1s, 1b

these destroyings continued up until sabonis retired


Yea and now we can compare Shaq and Dwight last season stats and say that Dwight is definetly should be higher on goat list than Shaq. Would that make any sense? no same as ur post, u r simply retarded.

[vert48]

lol@this sabonis destroying robinson garbage

robinson vs sabonis:

19 (NBA) games

robinson: 17.7ppg, 10.3rpg, 2.2apg, 1.3spg, 2.7bpg
sabonis: 11.9ppg, 6.8rpg, 1.9apg, 0.8spg, 0.7bpg

what about their first meeting when sabonis was still in his "prime" years (31 years old, robinson being 30):

robinson: 20p, 21r, 2a, 2s, 8b
sabonis: 11p, 10r, 0a, 1s, 0b

oh but what about the second meeting you ask?

robinson: 39p, 9r, 3a, 3s, 8b
sabonis: 16p, 7r, 3a, 1s, 1b

these destroyings continued up until sabonis retiredYou clearly have no clue. Sabonis destroyed Robinson at the WC, way back in 1986. By the time Sabonis came to the NBA, he was a shell of his former self. Think Bill Walton.

[Shep]

look at these dumb ****s :roll: who cares what happens at some olympic tournament when both players are teenagers? you've seen guys like iverson stink it up at olympic games, does that mean he's no better than some guy called stanislav mesafenko who might have played well for his country?

robinson was 30, sabonis was 31, both players had been seriously injured, nba rules, robinson dominated. game over.

[Jinxed]

Actually, he didn't generally dominate Robinson as much as people make it seem, if at all. They are hooked by the 2 minutes of that famous Youtube video from 1986, which, among else, includes a play with Sabonis commiting a clear offensive foul while dunking on Robinson, as well as commiting a goal-tending. Of course, nobody mentions that USA won the game. Or that Sabonis, despite being roughly the same age with Robinson, was much closer to his physical prime than Robinson was to his.

Then, people mention the '88 Olympics as another personal victory for Sabonis. Of course they will not tell you that Sabonis scored only 3 points in the second half or that he finished the game with 13/12 while Robinson had 19/12 on less playing time. Or that plays like these ever existed:



You aren't being truthful friend. Sabonis was HURT in 88'. BADLY. He had to begged to play for the USSR, and didn't play with the team in all the exhibitions leading up to the Olympics. He played very hobbled. Sabonis hurt himself in 86'. Everything after that he wasn't the same.

As for Sampson. An 18 year old Arvydas Sabonis and his USSR team played against UVA during a 12 game tour versus American college teams. (Sampson was the best player in the country at the time and about to jump to NBA) and Sabas dominated him. Scoring 21 points to Sampson's 13.

[Harison]

I didn't mention these things as negatives. Read my post again.
However, running the floor like a forward and jumping a lot while younger definitely harmed his knees. You claim you have seen his prime, so you must know what I'm talking about.

Backtracking from your comments? Maybe you learned something after all, and no, "doing things that big men are not supposed to do like shoot 3's, run fast breaks and give behind the back passes" or "He should stick to being a center, not a 7-3 guard." cannot be interpreted in a positive spin.

If you didnt knew, fast breaks were bread and butter of centers like Bill Russell and Robinson, and being offense engine and passing hub is one of the major reasons why Russell had more rings than fingers, and when finally Wilt understood that, he got some rings too.



Because you play the game of basketball doesn't mean that you have a great grasp of history.
Most of your comments might be true in general, but have nothing to do with topic in hand, do you really want to claim you can evaluate Sabonis better than Pippen, Walton and others? I surely hope you dont claim that.



So, Pippen called him the GOAT European (and that's an old quote, before Dirk managing what he did in these years). Walton called him the "best passing center ever", which is of course different than "greatest center ever". Radja said that he'd be a 10-time all-star (you don't have to be the GOAT for this. Ewing was an 11-time all-star). Meehan ranks him 6th all-time, behind the obvious top-5, and I bet he bases a lot of this on his 80's-early 90's NBA potential and unfinished business, not his actual career. Sean Elliot comes the closest to the GOAT claim.
Dirk is incredible, just he never was as good as Sabonis, but at least will have a better NBA career.

Walton is known as one of the best passing centers in NBA history, and he specifically mentioned that Sabonis was better than him and others, thats quite a praise.

Bill Walton also said: "Show some respect to this living legend, this hall of famer...Arvydas Sabonis."
"Sabonis is the epitome of competitive greatness."

Btw, Radja and Divac played against prime Sabonis, and one more quote for your reading pleasure:

Vlade Divac said: " He's now 30 years old, but I remember him when I played against him when he was 21 or 22, he was the best center I ever saw in my life. I can say easy he was a better player than Shaq, Ewing, Hakeem. . . . I'm telling you, he was the best center I ever saw in my life. He was passing the ball, dribbling, shooting three-pointers, jumping. He did everything. Now he's lost his speed because of injury, but still he's a smart player. He knows basketball."

Here you go, another guy who not only saw, but played against prime Sabas, was quite passionate about his impressions.

[Jinxed]

look at these dumb ****s :roll: who cares what happens at some olympic tournament when both players are teenagers? you've seen guys like iverson stink it up at olympic games, does that mean he's no better than some guy called stanislav mesafenko who might have played well for his country?

robinson was 30, sabonis was 31, both players had been seriously injured, nba rules, robinson dominated. game over.

Just watch the video friend. Sabonis would destroy his achilles a few months later and was never the same.

This will blow your mind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06usV6451ik

DRob is #11 for team USA. He was 22 at the time

[Kobe8]

Lakers Vs Portland , He always gets owned by Shaq , But he was quicker tho.

Shaq's Ownage List :
1. Dikembe Mutombo
2. Sabonis
3. Yao Ming
4. Brad Miller
5. Shawn Bradley

6. Pretty Much all the one who tried to guard back in his prime.

[Jinxed]

Video of Sabonis in 86, breaking a backboard with a one handed dunk. He was a bad man.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9AJ-Yclo4I&feature=fvsr

[Jinxed]

More Prime Sabonis, Showing off his skills in 86 Euro Championships

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVtjuCQiYTY&feature=related

He also knocks a dude out with a punch.

[Kobe8]

Forgot to many to remember , Lets add Chris Dudley here.

[Psileas]

Backtracking from your comments? Maybe you learned something after all, and no, "doing things that big men are not supposed to do like shoot 3's, run fast breaks and give behind the back passes" or "He should stick to being a center, not a 7-3 guard." cannot be interpreted in a positive spin.

You didn't care to read what I posted and it seems you don't want to. I copy it:


Playing great against a later NBAer, having a great career in Europe, doing things that big men are not supposed to do like shoot 3's, run fast breaks and give behind the back passes is what leads most people to believe that Sabonis would be a GOAT candidate. Well, for me, the very short duration of his prime is an important factor. The guy was already facing injury problems in the late 80's and his style of play has a lot to do with this. If Sabonis wanted to become an NBA All-time great level of player, he would have to stop doing the things that he did and convinced people that he was clearly better than someone like Robinson. He should stick to being a center, not a 7-3 guard.

I don't imply that everything I wrote in green font is a negative thing. But the guy was being too perimeter-oriented. So, a part of what made him look so great was what brought about his injuries. People want to pretend that he was just being unlucky and bears no responsibility for what happened to him.


If you didnt knew, fast breaks were bread and butter of centers like Bill Russell and Robinson, and being offense engine and passing hub is one of the major reasons why Russell had more rings than fingers, and when finally Wilt understood that, he got some rings too.

There is a reason Russell never faced injuries and Robinson stayed healthy for much longer than Sabonis, as well. None of them was 300 lbs and both had stronger legs for their size.
And no, that's not the reason Wilt won his rings. On the contrary, he cared about running fast breaks more when he was younger (and like the other two, he wasn't anywhere near as heavy as Sabonis. When he became, he stopped playing like a runner). Wilt improved his outlet pass that created fast breaks, but I never commented on that aspect in Sabonis' game, which was great and was irrelevant to his injuries.


Most of your comments might be true in general, but have nothing to do with topic in hand, do you really want to claim you can evaluate Sabonis better than Pippen, Walton and others? I surely hope you dont claim that.

Not necessarily, but
1) I didn't disagree with most of the things these guys said
2) I don't see the opinions of basketball greats as some set-in-stone truths that I have no right to disagree with. A lot of all-time greats have expressed opinions that a lot of people disagree with. Look no further than Kobe and the fact that Kobe's hardcore fans have mentioned a lot of quotes by all-time greats who claim that he's not that far off Jordan, something that a lot of other fans disagree with.


Dirk is incredible, just he never was as good as Sabonis, but at least will have a better NBA career.

Maybe, but you know, I'd like to see what people would claim if he had faced Sabonis' health problems when starting his rise to the top. Though we'll never know, I bet we'd have a lot of people claim "too bad Dirk had these injuries, he would have become better than Larry Bird".



Walton is known as one of the best passing centers in NBA history, and he specifically mentioned that Sabonis was better than him and others, thats quite a praise.

Bill Walton also said: "Show some respect to this living legend, this hall of famer...Arvydas Sabonis."
"Sabonis is the epitome of competitive greatness."

Agreed.



Vlade Divac said: " He's now 30 years old, but I remember him when I played against him when he was 21 or 22, he was the best center I ever saw in my life. I can say easy he was a better player than Shaq, Ewing, Hakeem. . . . I'm telling you, he was the best center I ever saw in my life. He was passing the ball, dribbling, shooting three-pointers, jumping. He did everything. Now he's lost his speed because of injury, but still he's a smart player. He knows basketball."

Here you go, another guy who not only saw, but played against prime Sabas, was quite passionate about his impressions.

Good for him, but I disagree on the bolded. Let Divac take Sabonis for his own team, I'll take Shaq or Hakeem.

(By the way, when Sabonis was 21-22, Divac was 17-19, so yes, I'd expect him to be more easily impressed back then than when he became an NBA player and faced Shaq and Hakeem. It's well known that great youth memories are hard to be erased and revalued more objectively, even when we grow older. Not to mention that the way this quote is phrased, it seems as if he thinks that 21 year old Sabonis was better than prime Hakeem/Shaq, not Hakeem/Shaq at the same age).

[nbacardDOTnet]

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/1%20Portland%20Trail%20Blazers/Arvydas%20Sabonis/093d8dc3.gif

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/1%20Portland%20Trail%20Blazers/Arvydas%20Sabonis/f271642f.gif

[millwad]

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/1%20Portland%20Trail%20Blazers/Arvydas%20Sabonis/093d8dc3.gif

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/1%20Portland%20Trail%20Blazers/Arvydas%20Sabonis/f271642f.gif

I find it amusing that people really use crappy videos like that to prove a point, Sabonis played in the freaking 80's and 90's and still people in this thread write quotes or short one sided videos instead of showing what really happened..

Sabonis Olympic career is overrated, first the myth of him "schooling" Robinson and then in all he just wasn't that impressive, just check his boxscores for all his olympic games;

http://www.sports-reference.com/olympics/athletes/sa/arvydas-sabonis-1.html

All his high statistical games were against crappy teams beside the two games against Croatia and Yugoslavia.

Dude is flat out overrated..

[Laimbeer_Rodman]

Backtracking from your comments? Maybe you learned something after all, and no, "doing things that big men are not supposed to do like shoot 3's, run fast breaks and give behind the back passes" or "He should stick to being a center, not a 7-3 guard." cannot be interpreted in a positive spin.

If you didnt knew, fast breaks were bread and butter of centers like Bill Russell and Robinson, and being offense engine and passing hub is one of the major reasons why Russell had more rings than fingers, and when finally Wilt understood that, he got some rings too.


Most of your comments might be true in general, but have nothing to do with topic in hand, do you really want to claim you can evaluate Sabonis better than Pippen, Walton and others? I surely hope you dont claim that.


Dirk is incredible, just he never was as good as Sabonis, but at least will have a better NBA career.

Walton is known as one of the best passing centers in NBA history, and he specifically mentioned that Sabonis was better than him and others, thats quite a praise.

Bill Walton also said: "Show some respect to this living legend, this hall of famer...Arvydas Sabonis."
"Sabonis is the epitome of competitive greatness."

Btw, Radja and Divac played against prime Sabonis, and one more quote for your reading pleasure:

Vlade Divac said: " He's now 30 years old, but I remember him when I played against him when he was 21 or 22, he was the best center I ever saw in my life. I can say easy he was a better player than Shaq, Ewing, Hakeem. . . . I'm telling you, he was the best center I ever saw in my life. He was passing the ball, dribbling, shooting three-pointers, jumping. He did everything. Now he's lost his speed because of injury, but still he's a smart player. He knows basketball."

Here you go, another guy who not only saw, but played against prime Sabas, was quite passionate about his impressions.
I always enjoy reading your comments xcept when you talk about Sabonis.
I admit i didn't watch those USSR games in Seoul except vs.Yougoslavia (great performance in the clutch btw)but i did watch him a lot during '90s.
Large group of players that i truly respect point him as the best player they had to play against(Radja,Kukoc,Divac) .
I just can't see why.Also i don't understand why he's so undisputedly considered the best in Lithuania.It's not like you don't have good players.
When my country use to play vs.Lithuania in mid '90s
the biggest trouble was locking down Marchulonis(which was impossible).
Homichus was deadly as f*ck also,but Sabonis was managable.
I understand he had ruptured Achilles tendon on both legs and everything ,he was great passer ,shooter,had big IQ but he wasn't unstoppable and surely wasn't the best thing Europe had .

[rodman91]

Anybody who watched late 90's Portland unbias, knows how skilled sabonis was.You can watch from youtube as well.

He was great shooter.He was as good as guards from behind 3pt.
He had court vision of a very good playmaker.
He had better passing skills than most of guards.
He had great dribbling skills for such size.
He had great hook shots.
He was a huge mofo.
He was walking on the court.He looked like crippled when he tried to run.

What happened to Shaq,Hakeem when their legs couldn't carry anymore? What happened to Grant Hill,Penny,T-Mac? What's happening to Duncan & Garnett?

Basketball is not a chess.When the legs f.ked up, even great players are done.Sabonis did great with such crippled version of himself.Prime Sabonis was done in 88.He still had great career in Europe & decent career in NBA due to his skills even as a slow-motion player.

[Round Mound]

Barkley said it the Best

"Sabonis was a Great Player before injuries (1987 on), not good, but Great"

He had a Top 5 Center of All Time Potential before injuries

[millwad]

Barkley said it the Best

"Sabonis was a Great Player before injuries (1987 on), not good, but Great"

He had a Top 5 Center of All Time Potential before injuries

Exactly, he had the potential being the top 5 center of all time, but he was injured..

But as some of you claim, no, he's not in the top 5 center list of all time, just quit it..