Bigger gap: Jordan and Hakeem or LeBron and Dwight

[eliteballer]

I for one think Hakeem's prime was on the same general level as Jordan/Magic/Bird. Not sure on this question. What you all think?

[miles berg]

Much bigger gap between LeBron & Dwight.

Hakeem was unbelievable in his day. All time top 10 player. Dwight will never reach that top 10 all time status. LeBron could.

[Dwade305]

I for one think Hakeem's prime was on the same general level as Jordan/Magic/Bird. Not sure on this question. What you all think?


Jordan/Akeem gap size

http://sportsnerds.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/fcec3620-7194-4fd6-9512-2ed208e968d0.jpg





Lebron/Dwight gap size

http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/media/images/medium2/20091012183817938.jpg

[thejumpa]

:roll: ^^^

[Yung D-Will]

Jordan/Akeem gap size

http://sportsnerds.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/fcec3620-7194-4fd6-9512-2ed208e968d0.jpg





Lebron/Dwight gap size

http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/media/images/medium2/20091012183817938.jpg
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Poochymama]

Lebron/Dwight is certainly the larger gap

[All Net]

Much bigger gap between LeBron & Dwight.

Hakeem was unbelievable in his day. All time top 10 player. Dwight will never reach that top 10 all time status. LeBron could.

I don't think there is no doubt Lebron will be in the top 10 when it's all said and done. Guess it depends how many titles he wins and if he can continue putting up amazing stats.

[Indian guy]

In MJ and Hakeem you're looking at 2 Top 10 players of ALL TIME. In LeBron and Howard you have one Top 20 guy, and Dwight is......well, where does he rank right now?

[Fatal9]

'93-'95 Hakeem and '91-'93 Jordan is a toss up imo.

[Horde of Temujin]

Dwight is not even top 10, hell top 15 in the league right now

[Yung D-Will]

Dwight is not even top 10, hell top 15 in the league right now
Stfu :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Kurosawa0]

Dwight Howard will have a great career because he has it laid out for him. There are no other serious challengers at the five now.

That said, he's yet to show that he can truly dominate night in and night out. LeBron has been doing that for several years. Dwight's now five years into his career and he's not there.

You can make the argument that for the two championship years in Houston, Hakeem was as good as anyone ever was. Jordan is obviously the greatest, but Hakeem's best is right next to his.

[Fatstogie]

Much bigger gap between LeBron & Dwight.

Hakeem was unbelievable in his day. All time top 10 player. Dwight will never reach that top 10 all time status. LeBron could.


LOL you better re review all teh records Dwight crushed this year. And that his career has still only begun. He has tons of unused and unseen potential. Dont get blindsided when dude finally busts some moves out.
IMO he'll go down as the number 1 bigman of all time. Mind you not for the mindless masses who only pay attention to scoring.

Look at the magic. Most 3s in an NBA season. Ill give 1 guess why? CAuse Dwight can erase the misses on defense. Without him the 3pt jack frenzy dont work like that.

WAtch him play. Dudes avoid the paint cause hes there. He changes, or has greater effect on teh entire game, than any other player in the league right now. His presence is enough to make defense on the floor. Even when he aint there people are looking for him.

Yea dude pay more attention. Dwight is off the chain and only stands to expand his game even more. His defense thus far CRUSHES any big man before. Because hes playing against faster and more talented scorers. And still putting up ridiculous D.

Dwight would shut down old schoolers like bird and magic.

His offense leaves something to be desired. But IMO the coach didnt encourage him to expand his game. He was too busy erasing missed 3s to erase his own offensive mistakes. He had to remain efficient. And with teh highest FG% in the league he obviously did it very well. But i think next year hes gonna start out taking more offensive risk. And IMO it will pay off for him.

Also lebron and JM are in a category seperate from bird and them. Sorry old guy fans. Fact is MJ and Lebron would snap their ankles 17 ways from sunday. Bird and all those old school players were great, but they played a bunch of ****in daisy duke wearin ole fogeys man. Cmon dude you go to the gym and wathc the old jump shooting geezer who dont do shit but jump shoot. Thats who they played against.

The only gap in between Lebron and MJ is shooting. But IMO Lebron makes up for it with efficiency and greater defense.

[OldSchoolBBall]

'93-'95 Hakeem and '91-'93 Jordan is a toss up imo.

LMAO @ this. :oldlol: No.

The gap between MJ/Hakeem is smaller than between Dwight/Lebron, but anyone who suggests that Hakeem = MJ is deluded, plain and simple.

[zORi]

Dwight is not even top 10, hell top 15 in the league right now

Name 15 players (or even 10) that are better than him right now.

Hurry, I need a laugh.

[BigBalla44]

LOL you better re review all teh records Dwight crushed this year. And that his career has still only begun. He has tons of unused and unseen potential. Dont get blindsided when dude finally busts some moves out.
IMO he'll go down as the number 1 bigman of all time. Mind you not for the mindless masses who only pay attention to scoring.

Look at the magic. Most 3s in an NBA season. Ill give 1 guess why? CAuse Dwight can erase the misses on defense. Without him the 3pt jack frenzy dont work like that.

WAtch him play. Dudes avoid the paint cause hes there. He changes, or has greater effect on teh entire game, than any other player in the league right now. His presence is enough to make defense on the floor. Even when he aint there people are looking for him.

Yea dude pay more attention. Dwight is off the chain and only stands to expand his game even more. His defense thus far CRUSHES any big man before. Because hes playing against faster and more talented scorers. And still putting up ridiculous D.

Dwight would shut down old schoolers like bird and magic.

His offense leaves something to be desired. But IMO the coach didnt encourage him to expand his game. He was too busy erasing missed 3s to erase his own offensive mistakes. He had to remain efficient. And with teh highest FG% in the league he obviously did it very well. But i think next year hes gonna start out taking more offensive risk. And IMO it will pay off for him.

Also lebron and JM are in a category seperate from bird and them. Sorry old guy fans. Fact is MJ and Lebron would snap their ankles 17 ways from sunday. Bird and all those old school players were great, but they played a bunch of ****in daisy duke wearin ole fogeys man. Cmon dude you go to the gym and wathc the old jump shooting geezer who dont do shit but jump shoot. Thats who they played against.

The only gap in between Lebron and MJ is shooting. But IMO Lebron makes up for it with efficiency and greater defense.

You gotta troll better than that.

[DatWasNashty]

'93-'95 Hakeem and '91-'93 Jordan is a toss up imo.

I'd give a tiny edge to Jordan here but it's really close contrary to the popular belief. Hakeem is definitely over second 3 peat Jordan, as are a peak Shaquille and Duncan.

In fact, I'd say Hakeem in the '95 playoffs was as good if not better than Jordan ever was. Bill Walton during the '95 finals stated he's never seen a better player than Hakeem Olajuwon during that six week stretch. David Robinson circa '03 said the best big he ever saw in the playoffs was Hakeem Olajuwon during that 2 year run in '94 and '95.

People just don't understand what he did in 1994 and 1995. You can can make a strong argument for the Rockets being outmatched in terms of talent in every round in those two years. Obviously, talent isn't everything but it's more of a testament to what Hakeem did during those two years. They faced the same Blazer team, in terms of their roster, as Jordan did in the '92 finals. They weren't as good due to Drexler's decline and their defense deteriorating. Difference was the Duckworth / Harvey Grant trade, Ainge departing and Rod Strickland being signed as a free agent to form a formidable backcourt along with Porter and Drexler. Porter/Drexler/Strickland is the most stacked backcourt I've seen to this day. Hakeem took a steaming dump on them to the extent of 34 ppg/11 rpg/4 apg.

Next up were the 1994 Suns :cry:. We were favored to win the series and had a pretty big edge in talent. Difference was Maxwell going to work in game 3 which changed the momentum in favor of the Rockets. Sir Charles also had a bad back and fatigue issues in game 7. Another series that showcased Majerle's overrated man defense, btw. His lack of lateral quickness and inability to effectively chase guys off of screens was on display.

1994 Jazz were expected to be championship contenders after the Hornacek trade since he added another dimension to their predictable offense. Hakeem shut down the paint in this series along with being charged for rape against Felton Spencer.

1994 Knicks, Rockets were favored to win the series for 1 reason only. Hakeem's domination of Ewing in the two season match ups holding Pat to 9/35 shooting while having a couple of monster games. I seem to recall a 29/20 effort along with a 37 pt domination. The Knicks were more of a gritty, physical and intense defensive team. The Rockets had blown a couple of leads in their run while the Knicks had shown will to win along with perseverance. I'd take Ewing's cast over Hakeem's for sure.

1995, Houston wasn't expected to win a single series yet they came through in the clutch every single time. Taking down Utah that won 61 games along with averaging 35 ppg/8 rpg/4 apg on 56% shooting along with the some ridiculously tough shots.

Beat us again next series although we had a great chance to put it away in game 5. Chuck stunk it up at the line and Wesley Person missed a 3 at the buzzer. Hakeem had 16 points in the 4th in game 7. Went on to dismantle MVP David Robinson in the conference finals and thoroughly outplayed another MVP candidate in O'Neal. Olajuwon always elevated his and his teammates play come postseason time. Hakeem's championships are extremely impressive under proper context. He was one of the most underrated as well as the most underappreciated player for a good part of the 1990s.

[Jacks3]

93-95 Hakeem and 08-10 LeBron are every bit as good as Peak MJ. In fact, LeBron's 09 season was better statistically than any season Jordan ever had.

[OldSchoolBBall]

LMAO @ the idiots in this thread. :oldlol:

[Yung D-Will]

No u didn't respond

[EarlTheGoat]

Dwight is not even top 10, hell top 15 in the league right now


Come on rocketsgreatness...

[EarlTheGoat]

LMAO @ this. :oldlol: No.

The gap between MJ/Hakeem is smaller than between Dwight/Lebron, but anyone who suggests that Hakeem = MJ is deluded, plain and simple.

He didnt say that you obssesive Jordan dick-rider, he said the 93-95 Hakeem is at the same level than the 91-93 Jordan. Which is debatable and closer than you making it out to be.


Dont worry BruceBlitz, nobody is insulting your hero.

[Yung D-Will]

Dwight is not even top 10, hell top 15 in the league right now
Let me just make this clear to you before you start this list.

Deron Williams is not better then Dwight Howard.

Period.

[magnax1]

Maybe its just bigmen that get over rated. Hakeem was as good as Jordan, and Bird was as good as Duncan? I really have just become confused as to when this happened. Did Hakeem and Duncan go back in time and improvehow good they were? It really isn't close in either case.

[Dwade305]

Let me just make this clear to you before you start this list.

Deron Williams is not better then Dwight Howard.

Period.

tbh It's a toss up :lol

[nbacardDOTnet]

Jordan/Akeem gap size

http://sportsnerds.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/fcec3620-7194-4fd6-9512-2ed208e968d0.jpg





Lebron/Dwight gap size

http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/media/images/medium2/20091012183817938.jpg


:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[EnoughSaid]

Dwight is not even top 10, hell top 15 in the league right now

Psh, no. Dwight's easily in the top 10.

[OldSchoolBBall]

He didnt say that you obssesive Jordan dick-rider, he said the 93-95 Hakeem is at the same level than the 91-93 Jordan. Which is debatable and closer than you making it out to be.


Dont worry BruceBlitz, nobody is insulting your hero.

No, it's actually not debatable, it's complete revisionist history. Nothing bears it out at all. No one thought Hakeem >= MJ in 1993, and he didn't become a much better player in one offseason, to say nothing of the fact that MJ had peaked 1-3 years prior.

Thinking that any version of Hakeem has ever been better than the best version of MJ is farcical.

[Fatal9]

LMAO @ this. :oldlol: No.

The gap between MJ/Hakeem is smaller than between Dwight/Lebron, but anyone who suggests that Hakeem = MJ is deluded, plain and simple.
I don't know what's so funny. MJ has the edge in scoring, and while MJ is clearly the better passer, I don't know if he created more shots for his teammates than Hakeem (even though Hakeem would not be credited for the assist like most centers because the ball swings after he passes it out of the post) and was clearly superior on defense/rebounding. Unlike most centers, Hakeem was also very clutch, maybe even the clutchest center ever.

'93 Hakeem averaged 26/13/4/4 on 53% in the regular season. 26/14/5/5 (:hammerhead:) in the playoffs. Played really well in the game 7 vs the Sonics (that was after destroying the Clippers in round 1) and was hitting clutch shots all over the place, but his team got screwed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax9n6JJgq-E) out of the game or we actually might have seen a MJ vs. Hakeem finals. I think Hakeem set a record for blocks in a series in that one, MJ has never approached that sort of a defensive impact. I am critical of Hakeem's defense pre-'93 (felt like he gambled too much, bit a lot on fakes and had weaknesses in post D, but '93-'94 was his defensive prime).

'94 Hakeem averaged 27/12/4/4 on 53%, won MVP and led an average roster to 58 wins and a ring. Team was down 0-2 to the Suns, and the Rockets needed to win the next two on the road against them to even stay in the series, Hakeem goes out and averaged 27/14/7/6 on 60+% in those games. Ended his playoff run by shutting down Ewing and willing Rockets to win the title with a great finals series.

'95 Hakeem had the most impressive playoff run ever, yes, even more impressive than any of Jordan's runs because I don't think MJ could have pulled off what Hakeem did. He saved the Rockets over and over again. First round, they had to beat a 60 win Jazz team (better version of the '97/'98 teams btw). Hakeem averaged 35 ppg on 57% that series, including a 40 point game to save his team from elimination and then going out on the road and hitting impossible fadeaways on route to winning the do or die game. Then he had to beat the 59 win Suns, not far off from the '93 team, Rockets were down 1-3, but Hakeem dropped 30/12/6 in the final three games to save the Rockets and led them to three straight wins. Then he had to beat the 62 win Spurs and we all know what he did to D-Rob in that series. Then had to go up against Shaq and the Magic (57 wins, #1 in East and beat the Bulls), and he came up big in the clutch and swept them. He had to beat the top 4 teams with the best record in the league, there were no breaks and he put up crazy numbers while doing it (33/10/4.5/3/2). I don't think any championship run was more difficult than that one and it's the reason that Hakeem that year had possibly the GOAT playoff run (factoring in stats, stepping up in key moments, competition, clutchness etc).

Rockets were 5-0 when facing elimination in that playoff run and Hakeem averaged 33/11/5/2 on 54.5% in those games.

And btw, if MJ gets replaced with Hakeem on the Bulls, they would be just as good if not better. Hakeem/Grant/Pippen is a nightmare front court defensively, and then you have shooters like BJ, Paxson to make the double teams on Hakeem pay. Considering what Hakeem already did in the same era with a lesser team, I don't see him achieving any less than MJ at his peak for a 3-4 year stretch (ie. he could threepeat with the same team while putting up great stats and winning MVPs).

Now want to explain to why '91-'93 Jordan is a level above from '93-'95 Hakeem?

[OldSchoolBBall]

LOL @ that bunch of nonsense above, especially about the Bulls being better with Hakeem instead of Jordan. No. Who makes the big plays? Pippen? LAWLS. :oldlol:

Again, the notion that peak Dream >= peak Jordan is revisionist history. No one considered 1993 (peak) Dream better than 1993 (1-2 year past peak) Jordan. No one. Yeah, maybe a few idiots like yourself, but you can say that about any top 3 player in the league in any given year. It's complete revisionist history to suggest that peak Hakeem = peak Jordan. Nothing at all bears it out.

Yeah, posting a bunch of biased recollections of what happened coupled with absurd speculation ("MJ couldn't do x/y/z etc.) may win you brownie points with people who weren't following the game and don't know any better, but it's bullshit plain and simple. No shock that it's coming from the board's biggest Jordan hater.

[Juges8932]

Let me just make this clear to you before you start this list.

Deron Williams is not better then Dwight Howard.

Period.

The comparison between Deron and Dwight isn't really cut and dry. They play completely different positions. Dwight is the best center in the league, but in an era that is severely lacking in big men. The one guy who could challenge him, Yao, has been injured almost as much as he has been playing. On the reverse, Deron is a top 2, at worst 3, PG in the league in an era that has a ton of great PGs.

As for the OP- I think it's pretty obvious that the gap between LBJ and Dwight is significantly greater than MJ and Dream.

[catch24]

I don't even think Hakeem was in the discussion as the 'best player' during the early 90's. '90-93 was Jordan at his best (IMO, the greatest 3-4 year span from any player), but supposedly Hakeem, who had an inferior peak and prime compared to Jordan, would make those Bulls teams better? Nah, definitely don't see it.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Shit, I mean, even BARKLEY was considered by many people to be better than Hakeem from '90-'93 (certainly more people thought Barkley > Hakeem than vice versa), yet here we have this clown Fatal9, biggest Jordan hater on the forum, trying to act like peak Hakeem > peak MJ. Ridiculous.

[BlueandGold]

Jordan/Akeem gap size

http://sportsnerds.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/fcec3620-7194-4fd6-9512-2ed208e968d0.jpg





Lebron/Dwight gap size

http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/media/images/medium2/20091012183817938.jpg

I literally lol'd.

[SinJackal]

Dwight is not even top 10, hell top 15 in the league right now

Uh, Dwight's top 5 right now easily.

Not even top 15? What the hell are you smoking son? Stop ranking everyone based on PPG.

[catch24]

Shit, I mean, even BARKLEY was considered by many people to be better than Hakeem from '90-'93 (certainly more people thought Barkley > Hakeem than vice versa), yet here we have this clown Fatal9, biggest Jordan hater on the forum, trying to act like peak Hakeem > peak MJ. Ridiculous.

Drexler, Robinson, Ewing and Malone to name a few. It's not an outrageous claim (two of the best defenders, at their respectable position, on the same team, would be amazing), it's just Jordan's impact both verbally and physically (his offense alone kept the Bulls in most of their games) couldn't of been "replaced".

[Jacks3]

Peak Hakeem shits all over Jordan in terms of defensive impact. lol @ morons acting like it ain't even close.

[Fatal9]

Again, the notion that peak Dream >= peak Jordan is revisionist history. No one considered 1993 (peak) Dream better than 1993 (1-2 year past peak) Jordan. No one. Yeah, maybe a few idiots like yourself, but you can say that about any top 3 player in the league in any given year. It's complete revisionist history to suggest that peak Hakeem = peak Jordan. Nothing at all bears it out.

Yeah, posting a bunch of biased recollections of what happened coupled with absurd speculation ("MJ couldn't do x/y/z etc.) may win you brownie points with people who weren't following the game and don't know any better, but it's bullshit plain and simple. No shock that it's coming from the board's biggest Jordan hater.
Hakeem finished higher in MVP voting than Jordan in '93 and got almost twice as many first place votes.

Secondly, if you are going to go by what people thought in '93, lets also get an overall perspective of what else was going on. Hakeem just came out of a low point in his career in the '91/'92 seasons, where his production was low (wasn't involved in the offense as much), team wasn't winning and he was feuding with the management. Jordan meanwhile had been better than Hakeem all throughout the late 80s and was at the height of his career in '91 and '92 after winning two consecutive rings. Going into the '93 season, one is a finished product who has already won you championships, while Hakeem at that point was someone no one knew was good enough to even win championships (but they'd find out in '94 and '95). So if we're going by what people thought in '93, lets also remember what they didn't know by then (how good Hakeem really was). Even then, Hakeem was voted as the superior player in the regular season that year as shown by the MVP voting results.

Thirdly, none of what I said about Hakeem run from '93-'95 are "biased recollections" (especially when I'm giving you the numbers behind everything). If there are any, please point them out. I also didn't say Hakeem was better, I said it's a toss up. It's hard for me to give either one the edge. The difference is that Jordan had more superior seasons at that level than Hakeem did. If we take all of Jordan's best seasons and all of Hakeem's best, and then decided to rank the top 10, you'd have 3 Hakeem seasons and 7 MJ ones. But peak wise, '91-'93 MJ vs. '93-'95 Hakeem, it's too close to call for me.

As for Hakeem on the Bulls, I don't see how they are any less dominant. The team was built to be cater to a center like Hakeem. You have Grant/Hakeem/Pippen on the frontline which would be impossible to score on, Phil Jackson coaching (Hakeem can finally get some space to work with) and shooters galore on the perimeter. That team is the best team of the early 90s had it existed, there is no weakness. Hakeem like I said is maybe the clutchest center ever and had that Jordan gene where he never crumbled under pressure (I have noticed this in him as early as the '86 playoffs), he has proven himself as someone who takes over big games and can make countless clutch plays, so not sure why you point this out as a weakness (see '94 and '95 championship runs). Hakeem already won in that era with an inferior team to what MJ had, and I'm supposed to think he couldn't do it with Pippen, Grant and the GOAT coach, and a team good enough to win 55 games without either MJ or Hakeem? Shit...they might have even have had less trouble with the Knicks because Knicks could do a better job at stopping Jordan than Hakeem.

And no, Jordan doesn't have a playoff run as impressive as Hakeem's in '95 (I think it's the best playoff run ever). When has someone had to beat all of the top 4 teams in the league to win a ring? Each of his playoff opponents won 57-62 games. Especially the way Hakeem did it, averaged 33/10/5/3 on 53%, stepped up in every big game, outplayed his peers, dragged his team out of impossible situations and so on.

[Ruh-Roh]

Peak Hakeem shits all over Jordan in terms of defensive impact. lol @ morons acting like it ain't even close.

Stupidest f*cking thing you have ever said. :wtf:

[Jacks3]

Stupidest f*cking thing you have ever said. :wtf:
What are you talking about. Hakeem craps all over Jordan in terms of defensive impact because he's a center. That's the nature of the game. Just like Jordan shits all over Hakeem as a offensive player. :confusedshrug:

[Ruh-Roh]

What are you talking about. Hakeem craps all over Jordan in terms of defensive impact because he's a center. That's the nature of the game. Just like Jordan shits all over Hakeem as a offensive player. :confusedshrug:

Hakeem was a good shotblocker, but not the most defensive center even of his time. Jordan only had to compete with Gary for most defensive guard...possibly ever.


Most blocked shots for a guard career AND season, second highest steals ever...

[OldSchoolBBall]

Peak Hakeem shits all over Jordan in terms of defensive impact. lol @ morons acting like it ain't even close.

Who said it's not close? Hakeem's not as good as Jordan, though. Fatal can sit there and try to rationalize it all he wants, but there's a good reason why Hakeem was never considered a top 3 player in the league until 1993, and it had nothing to do with how bad his teams were (MJ and Barkley's teams in the late 80's/early 90's respective weren't great, yet they were considered top 3).

It's just a joke coming from the biggest Jordan hater on the forum. As if people are gonna buy your bullshit. :oldlol:

[Fatal9]

Who said it's not close? Hakeem's not as good as Jordan, though. Fatal can sit there and try to rationalize it all he wants, but there's a good reason why Hakeem was never considered a top 3 player in the league until 1993, and it had nothing to do with how bad his teams were.
:confusedshrug:

Dude, I haven't even said anything about pre-'93 Hakeem other than what the perception of him was coming into the '93 season. I don't know what that has to do with anything when discussing Hakeem's peak from '93-'95, which is the only thing being compared. I've even said MJ put together more seasons at that level than Hakeem did (only 3 or 4). Why shift the parameters of the argument to something that wasn't even being discussed?

[PHILA]

BARKLEY was considered by many people to be better than Hakeem from '90-'93 (certainly more people thought Barkley > Hakeem than vice versa) :applause:

[Fatal9]

Hakeem was a good shotblocker, but not the most defensive center even of his time. Jordan only had to compete with Gary for most defensive guard...possibly ever.

Most blocked shots for a guard career AND season, second highest steals ever...
Get the phuck outta here trying to equate Jordan's defensive impact with Hakeem's.

[OldSchoolBBall]

:confusedshrug:

Dude, I haven't even said anything about pre-'93 Hakeem other than what the perception of him was coming into the '93 season. I don't know what that has to do with anything when discussing Hakeem's peak from '93-'95, which is the only thing being compared. I've even said MJ put together more seasons at that level than Hakeem did (only 3 or 4). Why shift the parameters of the argument to something that wasn't even being discussed?

Because if a player's ability never shined through to people for the first 9 seasons of his career to place him top 3 (Hakeem was never viewed as top 3 until 1993, and even then DRob was neck and neck for the third slot), and no one thought he was better than or as good as MJ in 1993, he didn't magically get better in one offseason where now he's suddenly better than peak MJ. Get outta here with that noise. :oldlol:

[chazzy]

Hakeem was a good shotblocker, but not the most defensive center even of his time. Jordan only had to compete with Gary for most defensive guard...possibly ever.


What difference does that make? Hakeem has a bigger defensive impact regardless

[Fatal9]

Because if a player's ability never shined through to people for the first 9 seasons of his career to place him top 3 (Hakeem was never viewed as top 3 until 1993, and even then DRob was neck and neck for the third slot), and no one thought he was better than or as good as MJ in 1993, he didn't magically get better in one offseason where now he's suddenly better than peak MJ. Get outta here with that noise.
Right, Hakeem didn't improve much at all from '92 to '93 :facepalm. Statistically he went to the next level. He did improve his game (has said he wanted to turnaround his career), was more motivated, became a better passer, but a lot of it was simply the team running the ball through Hakeem more. In early 90s chuckers like Sleepy Floyd and Mad Max had a free reign to shoot and Hakeem went quarters being completely ignored in the post, but that changed when Rudy T started coaching. On top of all this, he became a much better defender too. In late 80s and even a bit in early 90s, his post defense had some weaknesses, he was very easy to get off his feet, neglected rebounding/boxing out to chase blocks but his defense really began improving around this time as well. So yes, he did in fact go to another level in '93, you can see it in the games as well.

'92:
21.6 ppg, 12.1 rpg, 2.2 apg, 1.8 spg, 4.3 bpg, 50.2 FG%, 0 MVP votes

'93:
26.1 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 3.5 apg, 1.8 spg, 4.2 bpg, 52.9 FG%, 2nd in MVP voting (over Jordan)

Yea, he didn't get better in the off season at all, despite hitting career highs (at the time) in ppg, apg and nearly FG% too :rolleyes:. I don't know why the fk this is even being argued. The fact is that '93-'95 Hakeem impact wise is right there with '91-'93 Jordan. Your single mindedness with Jordan is sickening, hop off his dick dude. He doesn't have to be the best in every comparison and argument, it's part of the reason why I argue against the guy so much because his groupies are stubborn drones who don't know anything about other players.

[Simple Jack]

He was a monster. And while you knew that...you dont take the time to praise it as you should.

I wont bother with talking about his skills which we should all be well aware of. With all the recent talk of stats and which stats are more impressive and the nationwide polls and so on......I am going to give you a selection of Hakeems best games....not from his career. And not even from one season. But one month. March of 1990....

First let me say that the last day of the previous month?

37/25 and 5 blocks

And when march started....

March the first. 41/14/7 blocks and 4 assists vs the Suns. Next game he put up 29 points...18 rebounds....11 blocks...10 assists...and 5 steals. Next game was 37 and 14 with 4 blocks and 3 steals vs David robinson. Next game? Lakers got 27/14/8/4/3.

After that he "cooled off" a little bit with a stretch of...

30/8/5/3/1 14 of 19 shooting
25/16 8 blocks and 3 steals.
25 points 19 rebounds 6 assists 4 blocks and 3 steals
17/22/8 blocks and 4 steals.
19/12 6 blocks. His worst game of the month maybe.

That continues on for a while. 20/20 game in there. 27/18 game. You know.

And right after the 28/18 game came a game that many are aware of. His quadruple double. I already posted his quad double you say? Well....it seems I only posted one of them from that month. you see Hakeem was in retrospect either given a 10th assist in the game vs the warriors on march 3rd or denied the 10th he was given to begin with. The NBA doesnt consider it an "official" quadruple double since it took a review and is questionable. But they in fact list it in his game logs. go check. Any site featuring game logs from 1990 includes Hakeem getting 2 quadruple doubles in March.

But the thing is I cant find proof of if he was given 10 and the 10th was taken on later revierw or given 9 and the 10th was added on review. Ive read stories suggesting both. Not having seen the official record on paper for the night....I just call it a quadruple double because the records show it as one. But its not often acknowledged. But lets say he didnt...

He had 29/18/11/9/5 one game that month and the usually credited quad double with 18/16/11/10 latrer.

Anyway after a pedestrian 24/16/5/5/2 to end the month with an average of 26/15 and 6 blocks he goes into April where the highlights include games with 34/19 and 52/18 vs Mutombo. All part of a season where he averaged 24/14 with 5 blocks and 2 steals a game.

Which I guess would be more impressive if he didnt put up 25/14 with 3 steals and 3 blocks a game the season before that. Which was the season after he got knocked out of the playoffs despite a 49/25/7 block elimination game. Which is all part of an 11 year run where he put up a rounded off 2 steals and 2 blocks a game over that decade plus....while somehow still being a better defender than those numbers suggest...and being a better offensive player than the numbers suggest....and a waaaaaaaaaaay better passer than his assists suggest though he did get up to about 4 a game which for a center is rare.

And yes I know drob also had some wicked stat lines in that same basic time period....but Drob lost all rights to being praised in the presence of Hakeem in 1995 when he was"Just...bamboozled". They never should have handed out that MVP in front of Hakeem....

Point?

Dont really have one. But I dont think Hakeem praise needs a point. For all the Lebron/Kobe talk about great statlines? give me like 3 of his from just March and April alone over anything they have done this year. Im gonna eventually give him a more complete video but for now this ond one will do...


^ can't be ignored.

MJ 88-93 is better but people forget just how good Hakeem was.

[DatWasNashty]

Right, Hakeem didn't improve much at all from '92 to '93 :facepalm. Statistically he went to the next level. He did improve his game (has said he wanted to turnaround his career), was more motivated, became a better passer, but a lot of it was simply the team running the ball through Hakeem more. In early 90s chuckers like Sleepy Floyd and Mad Max had a free reign to shoot and Hakeem went quarters being completely ignored in the post, but that changed when Rudy T started coaching. On top of all this, he became a much better defender too. In late 80s and even a bit in early 90s, his post defense had some weaknesses, he was very easy to get off his feet, neglected rebounding/boxing out to chase blocks but his defense really began improving around this time as well. So yes, he did in fact go to another level in '93, you can see it in the games as well.

'92:
21.6 ppg, 12.1 rpg, 2.2 apg, 1.8 spg, 4.3 bpg, 50.2 FG%, 0 MVP votes

'93:
26.1 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 3.5 apg, 1.8 spg, 4.2 bpg, 52.9 FG%, 2nd in MVP voting (over Jordan)

Yea, he didn't get better in the off season at all, despite hitting career highs (at the time) in ppg, apg and nearly FG% too :rolleyes:. I don't know why the fk this is even being argued. The fact is that '93-'95 Hakeem impact wise is right there with '91-'93 Jordan. Your single mindedness with Jordan is sickening, hop off his dick dude. He doesn't have to be the best in every comparison and argument, it's part of the reason why I argue against the guy so much because his groupies are stubborn drones who don't know anything about other players.

Co the fukkin sign.

LOL @ the idiot Jordan jocker bringing up the revisionist history point when that assclown doesn't realize that Hakeem was very much held back in Houston's offense. Not to the extent that Nash was in Dallas or Price was in Cleveland but it still made a significant difference as it showed in their record, Hakeem's performance in 1993. They used to run several PnRs with Smith / Thorpe and didn't maximize Hakeem's talents to where they should have. Smith and Maxwell were the go-to-guys instead of Dream. Big men stats have a direct correlation with how his teammates get him the ball, where they feed him etc. Reputation has a lot do with team success. TMac and Garnett didn't exactly have great reputations either in the years they were getting booted out of the first round. KG's rep skyrocketed when he won his first ring yet people fail to realize it had everything to do with the team around him.

Media definitely isn't the brightest out there and neither are fans especially the Jordan jockers. How many games did Houston get on national TV? What was the market size before the internet days? Guys who get more coverage are naturally going to be propped up and considered superior. Funny how Hakeem was suspended in 1992 and they went 2-10 without him and ended up missing the playoffs. With him? 40-30. Jordan meanwhile left the Bulls in 1994 and had his team win 55 games and become a better defensive team after he left. :oldlol: @ the alleged GOAT defensive SG's impact.

1992-93 Hakeem was on Jordan's level too. He was mentioned as a strong MVP candidate throughout the second half of the season and his stock peaked when he led them to a great record without Thorpe. He actually finished ahead of Jordan in MVP voting yet he wasn't on his level. SMH. Barkley, MJ and Hakeem were all on a similar level that year. It's not revisionist history to suggest otherwise. The Rockets were robbed in game 7 with two terrible calls in OT and one in the 4th quarter. Looking back at it, it's definitely better that way since we probably don't make the finals that year if Rockets advance.

Jordan = EASILY one of the most overrated players ever. Fatal9 delivering the ETHER in this thread. Hakeem's 95 playoff run > any of Jordan's. '94 is up there as well.

[Horde of Temujin]

I would take prime Hakeem over any big man in the league ever, man was insane a 7 foot tiger/gazelle out on the floor but hes no Jordan

[OldSchoolBBall]

Co the fukkin sign.

LOL @ the idiot Jordan jocker bringing up the revisionist history point when that assclown doesn't realize that Hakeem was very much held back in Houston's offense. Not to the extent that Nash was in Dallas or Price was in Cleveland but it still made a significant difference as it showed in their record, Hakeem's performance in 1993. They used to run several PnRs with Smith / Thorpe and didn't maximize Hakeem's talents to where they should have. Smith and Maxwell were the go-to-guys instead of Dream. Big men stats have a direct correlation with how his teammates get him the ball, where they feed him etc. Reputation has a lot do with team success. TMac and Garnett didn't exactly have great reputations either in the years they were getting booted out of the first round. KG's rep skyrocketed when he won his first ring yet people fail to realize it had everything to do with the team around him.

Media definitely isn't the brightest out there and neither are fans especially the Jordan jockers. How many games did Houston get on national TV? What was the market size before the internet days? Guys who get more coverage are naturally going to be propped up and considered superior. Funny how Hakeem was suspended in 1992 and they went 2-10 without him and ended up missing the playoffs. With him? 40-30. Jordan meanwhile left the Bulls in 1994 and had his team win 55 games and become a better defensive team after he left. :oldlol: @ the alleged GOAT defensive SG's impact.

1992-93 Hakeem was on Jordan's level too. He was mentioned as a strong MVP candidate throughout the second half of the season and his stock peaked when he led them to a great record without Thorpe. He actually finished ahead of Jordan in MVP voting yet he wasn't on his level. SMH. Barkley, MJ and Hakeem were all on a similar level that year. It's not revisionist history to suggest otherwise. The Rockets were robbed in game 7 with two terrible calls in OT and one in the 4th quarter. Looking back at it, it's definitely better that way since we probably don't make the finals that year if Rockets advance.

Jordan = EASILY one of the most overrated players ever. Fatal9 delivering the ETHER in this thread. Hakeem's 95 playoff run > any of Jordan's. '94 is up there as well.

Whatever you say buddy. You and Fatal9 can keep patting each other on the back, but the fact remains that the people who thought that Hakeem >= Jordan in 1993 were an EXTREME minority, and it had little to do with the markets they played in. Nice try, though.

Hakeem has been the beneficiary of almost as much revisionist history on this board as Pippen, and that's saying a lot. "As good as Jordan." "Playoff runs better than any Jordan ever had." Wow. :rofl:

[Duncan21formvp]

Career wise right now it would be Lebron vs Dwight as Lebron is probably top 25 while Dwight isn't even top 50.
Not to mention that both MJ and Hakeem were the #1 and #2 guy for the decade of the 90's. So yeah, they would be closer than Lebron and Dwight.

[Duncan21formvp]

I don't know what's so funny. MJ has the edge in scoring, and while MJ is clearly the better passer, I don't know if he created more shots for his teammates than Hakeem (even though Hakeem would not be credited for the assist like most centers because the ball swings after he passes it out of the post) and was clearly superior on defense/rebounding. Unlike most centers, Hakeem was also very clutch, maybe even the clutchest center ever.

'93 Hakeem averaged 26/13/4/4 on 53% in the regular season. 26/14/5/5 (:hammerhead:) in the playoffs. Played really well in the game 7 vs the Sonics (that was after destroying the Clippers in round 1) and was hitting clutch shots all over the place, but his team got screwed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax9n6JJgq-E) out of the game or we actually might have seen a MJ vs. Hakeem finals. I think Hakeem set a record for blocks in a series in that one, MJ has never approached that sort of a defensive impact. I am critical of Hakeem's defense pre-'93 (felt like he gambled too much, bit a lot on fakes and had weaknesses in post D, but '93-'94 was his defensive prime).

'94 Hakeem averaged 27/12/4/4 on 53%, won MVP and led an average roster to 58 wins and a ring. Team was down 0-2 to the Suns, and the Rockets needed to win the next two on the road against them to even stay in the series, Hakeem goes out and averaged 27/14/7/6 on 60+% in those games. Ended his playoff run by shutting down Ewing and willing Rockets to win the title with a great finals series.

'95 Hakeem had the most impressive playoff run ever, yes, even more impressive than any of Jordan's runs because I don't think MJ could have pulled off what Hakeem did. He saved the Rockets over and over again. First round, they had to beat a 60 win Jazz team (better version of the '97/'98 teams btw). Hakeem averaged 35 ppg on 57% that series, including a 40 point game to save his team from elimination and then going out on the road and hitting impossible fadeaways on route to winning the do or die game. Then he had to beat the 59 win Suns, not far off from the '93 team, Rockets were down 1-3, but Hakeem dropped 30/12/6 in the final three games to save the Rockets and led them to three straight wins. Then he had to beat the 62 win Spurs and we all know what he did to D-Rob in that series. Then had to go up against Shaq and the Magic (57 wins, #1 in East and beat the Bulls), and he came up big in the clutch and swept them. He had to beat the top 4 teams with the best record in the league, there were no breaks and he put up crazy numbers while doing it (33/10/4.5/3/2). I don't think any championship run was more difficult than that one and it's the reason that Hakeem that year had possibly the GOAT playoff run (factoring in stats, stepping up in key moments, competition, clutchness etc).

Rockets were 5-0 when facing elimination in that playoff run and Hakeem averaged 33/11/5/2 on 54.5% in those games.

And btw, if MJ gets replaced with Hakeem on the Bulls, they would be just as good if not better. Hakeem/Grant/Pippen is a nightmare front court defensively, and then you have shooters like BJ, Paxson to make the double teams on Hakeem pay. Considering what Hakeem already did in the same era with a lesser team, I don't see him achieving any less than MJ at his peak for a 3-4 year stretch (ie. he could threepeat with the same team while putting up great stats and winning MVPs).

Now want to explain to why '91-'93 Jordan is a level above from '93-'95 Hakeem?

Hakeem didn't even lead his team in Win Shares in the season nor playoffs in in 1995. When you add up Drexler's Win Shares in the season and playoffs that year he beats out Hakeem.

2. Clyde Drexler*-HOU 3.0
3. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 2.8

Regular Season that year.

9. Clyde Drexler*-TOT 11.7
11. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 10.7

So yeah, his own teammate had more total win shares than he did in 1995.

[Duncan21formvp]

Right, Hakeem didn't improve much at all from '92 to '93 :facepalm. Statistically he went to the next level. He did improve his game (has said he wanted to turnaround his career), was more motivated, became a better passer, but a lot of it was simply the team running the ball through Hakeem more. In early 90s chuckers like Sleepy Floyd and Mad Max had a free reign to shoot and Hakeem went quarters being completely ignored in the post, but that changed when Rudy T started coaching. On top of all this, he became a much better defender too. In late 80s and even a bit in early 90s, his post defense had some weaknesses, he was very easy to get off his feet, neglected rebounding/boxing out to chase blocks but his defense really began improving around this time as well. So yes, he did in fact go to another level in '93, you can see it in the games as well.

'92:
21.6 ppg, 12.1 rpg, 2.2 apg, 1.8 spg, 4.3 bpg, 50.2 FG%, 0 MVP votes

'93:
26.1 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 3.5 apg, 1.8 spg, 4.2 bpg, 52.9 FG%, 2nd in MVP voting (over Jordan)

Yea, he didn't get better in the off season at all, despite hitting career highs (at the time) in ppg, apg and nearly FG% too :rolleyes:. I don't know why the fk this is even being argued. The fact is that '93-'95 Hakeem impact wise is right there with '91-'93 Jordan. Your single mindedness with Jordan is sickening, hop off his dick dude. He doesn't have to be the best in every comparison and argument, it's part of the reason why I argue against the guy so much because his groupies are stubborn drones who don't know anything about other players.

I agree that Hakeem improved. IMO it is 1993-1995 that moves Hakeem as high as 7th all time and I actually believe Hakeem in 1993 was better statistically than he was in 1994 when he won pretty much every single award

[Jacks3]

Hakeem didn't even lead his team in Win Shares in the season nor playoffs in in 1995. When you add up Drexler's Win Shares in the season and playoffs that year he beats out Hakeem.

2. Clyde Drexler*-HOU 3.0
3. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 2.8

Regular Season that year.

9. Clyde Drexler*-TOT 11.7
11. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 10.7

So yeah, his own teammate had more total win shares than he did in 1995.
lol win shares.

[Jacks3]

Whatever you say buddy. You and Fatal9 can keep patting each other on the back, but the fact remains that the people who thought that Hakeem >= Jordan in 1993 were an EXTREME minority, and it had little to do with the markets they played in.

I like how you keep repeating yourself without even bothering to address any of their points. Good job.

[DatWasNashty]

Whatever you say buddy. You and Fatal9 can keep patting each other on the back, but the fact remains that the people who thought that Hakeem >= Jordan in 1993 were an EXTREME minority, and it had little to do with the markets they played in. Nice try, though.

Hakeem has been the beneficiary of almost as much revisionist history on this board as Pippen, and that's saying a lot. "As good as Jordan." "Playoff runs better than any Jordan ever had." Wow. :rofl:

You don't know anything about Hakeem, idiot. 95% of the media is compromised of boneheaded idiots who, much like regular fans, base their rankings or observation on reputation. And yes, lack of marketing, playing on a small market team had a lot to do with it.

Lets see, it's revisionist history to suggest Hakeem had a better 1995 playoff run than Jordan ever did? I see you were transferred to a coma right after Jordan and the Bulls lost to Orlando. Must have been traumatizing to see Hakeem sweep the fukk out of Shaq and Orlando.

Bill Walton went up against the likes of Jabbar and whoever else and said he's never seen anyone play better than Hakeem during that six week stretch. 1994 playoffs, Hakeem led the team in ppg, rpg, apg, spg and bpg which is something I don't think any player in the modern era has ever done. All this while winning without an all star, all nba or all defensive team member. That also doesn't account for his vastly superior defensive impact in contrast to Jordan. That type of dominance is unparalleled of. You can also make a strong case for his teams being outmatched in terms of talent in every single round of the playoffs.

Nothing idiotic about saying Hakeem in the 2 years he won a championship had postseasons greater or equal to Jordan's.

For the record, Jordan thought Hakeem deserved the 1993 MVP.


Among those who believe the MVP shouldn't be awarded until after the playoffs is Jordan himself.

Using that criteria, Jordan thinks this year's MVP is Hakeem Olajuwon, for singlehandedly reviving Houston into playoff contention this season.

[Fatal9]

Originally Posted by Duncan21formvp
Hakeem didn't even lead his team in Win Shares in the season nor playoffs in in 1995. When you add up Drexler's Win Shares in the season and playoffs that year he beats out Hakeem.

2. Clyde Drexler*-HOU 3.0
3. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 2.8

Regular Season that year.

9. Clyde Drexler*-TOT 11.7
11. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 10.7

So yeah, his own teammate had more total win shares than he did in 1995.
And I would care about a pointless stat that can't even tell me something so simple because...? Hakeem averaged 33/10/5/3 on 53% to Drexler's 21/7/5 on 48%, and somehow you in here trying to tell me winshares mean a thing if they can't even spot who the man on that team was?



Lets see, it's revisionist history to suggest Hakeem had a better 1995 playoff run than Jordan ever did? I see you were transferred to a coma right after Jordan and the Bulls lost to Orlando. Must have been traumatizing to see Hakeem sweep the fukk out of Shaq and Orlando.
:oldlol:

[OldSchoolBBall]

Yes, it is pretty ridiculous to think that Hakeem's playoff runs in '94 and '95 were better than MJ's from 1989-1991. Yes.

And what does who wins MVP, or MVP voting, have to do with WHO THE BETTER PLAYER IS? Hakeem simply was never as good at his best as MJ was at his best. Period. There's not a huge gap, but it's a discernible one. That's why one of these players was being called the greatest to ever play by his 5th full season while the other was never called that, even during this supposed "better than MJ" run in '94 and '95. Talent and ability shine through on the court.

Don't worry, though - you can Fatal, biggest Jordan hater on the board, can continue patting each other on the back. Feel free.

[jlauber]

And I would care about a pointless stat that can't even tell me something so simple because...? Hakeem averaged 33/10/5/3 on 53% to Drexler's 21/7/5 on 48%, and somehow you in here trying to tell me winshares mean a thing if they can't even spot who the man on that team was?


:oldlol:

I'm not taking sides in this discussion...except to say that I agree with Fatal9's take on the Win Shares point. My god, if Drexler had a higher Win Share than Hakeem that post-season, that has to be the biggest argument against that stat.

[JtotheIzzo]

I personally think Dwight is crap, and even though Jordan >>>>>> LeBron, the fact that Hakeem>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Dwight, makes the gap between LeBron and Dwight larger.

[catch24]

hulk smash!

lol at this toolbag trying to act tough in text. Calm the hell down before you break your fingers typing so feverishly.

Jordan's 1991, 1992 and 1993 postseasons eclipse EVERY season Hakeem's played, period, end of story. Most sane people know that was Jordan's prime, and those SANE people realize Kareem is the only player to have a comparable 3-4 year stretch. Not Duncan, not Hakeem, not Kobe, and all other second tiers.

[Jacks3]

those SANE people realize Kareem is the only player to have a comparable 3-4 year stretch. N
Bird? Wilt? :facepalm

[catch24]

Bird? Wilt? :facepalm

?

Those guys didn't put up the numbers (both regular season and post season) and accolades (Mvps and final mvps combined) Jordan did at the time. I like Wilt, but IMO a lot of his numbers are inflated because of the ridiculous pace his era played in.

[chazzy]

I like Wilt, but IMO a lot of his numbers are inflated because of the ridiculous pace his era played in.

Aww shit..
http://www.mille-soeren.dk/07_Clipart_JPG_GIF/12_funny_computer/old_man_computer_ani_fun.gif

here comes jlauber :D

[Jacks3]

:roll:

[jlauber]

Aww shit..
http://www.mille-soeren.dk/07_Clipart_JPG_GIF/12_funny_computer/old_man_computer_ani_fun.gif

here comes jlauber :D

:roll:

I will just say that, Wilt dominated his peers, by much larger margins, than any other player in NBA history. You can speculate on the numbers in a cross-era comparisons all you want, but we do KNOW that he outscored his nearest rivals by as much as 19 ppg, he outrebounded his nearest rivals by as much as nearly five per game, and he outshot his nearest rivals from the floor by as much as .162. And, BTW, his name is plastered all over the RECORD BOOK.

[PHILA]

?

Those guys didn't put up the numbers (both regular season and post season) and accolades (Mvps and final mvps combined) Jordan did at the time. I like Wilt, but IMO a lot of his numbers are inflated because of the ridiculous pace his era played in.

Yes I'm sure Wilt would be unable of averaging 34 points, or even 24 points per game, for during his Sixer years he won 3 consecutive MVP's as the top player in basketball.

[catch24]

Yes I'm sure Wilt would be unable of averaging 34 points, or even 24 points per game, for during his Sixer years he won 3 consecutive MVP's as the top player in basketball.

And raise his numbers during the postseason while winning 3x Final Mvps.

[jlauber]

And raise his numbers during the postseason while winning 3x Final Mvps.

Of coure, he was also playing against Russell, arguably the greatest defensive center (and maybe PLAYER) of all-time, in all three of those post-seasons...and he DID raise his rebounding, while his scoring was very similar in all three. They didn't have Finals MVPs back then, but he did win one. Here again, let's give Russell some credit for the lack of Finals MVPs in those three years.

[catch24]

Of coure, he was also playing against Russell, arguably the greatest defensive center (and maybe PLAYER) of all-time, in all three of those post-seasons...and he DID raise his rebounding, while his scoring was very similar in all three. They didn't have Finals MVPs back then, but he did win one. Here again, let's give Russell some credit for the lack of Finals MVPs in those three years.

He was still compared to Russell, though (this while being much more talented). Yes, Final MVPs didn't exist but the point was, Jordan led his teams to three straight Finals, winning them, while putting up historical numbers in them. It's no coincidence he's known as the best playoff performer of all time. Russell gets a lot of credit, I just don't think he was the all around player Jordan was, which is why I rank him higher anyway.

[PHILA]

And raise his numbers during the postseason while winning 3x Final Mvps.
How about raising his level of play as was the case. '66 he had the flu the first game and by all accounts was unable to get consistent touches in the pivot due to the collapsing Celtics defense for the next three. Of course his desperation 46 point 34 rebound performance in Game 5 wasn't enough. In '68 against the Knicks, little known fact is that Chamberlain led BOTH TEAMS in points, rebounds, and assists for the entire series, whilst nursing an assortment of injuries, including his annual shin splints. This against two Hall Of Fame centers Walt Bellamy & Willis Reed manning the front court, both of whom would be 2nd to none in the pivot today.

And against the Celtics, Russell was the one who noted that a "lesser man wouldn't even be playing" with all the injuries Chamberlain and his teammates had that was an unfortunate series against Boston. Even the Celtics fans believed it was a fluke due to the emotional impact Dr. King assassination had on the black players of the Sixers.


Of course we must also give credit where is due, for Russell managed to outplay Chamberlain and outcoach Hannum in that 7th game.




Before we leave 1968 altogether, can we talk about game seven for a minute? In 1968 you limited your friend Wilt Chamberlain to two shot attempts in the entire second half of game seven.

Bill Russell: That's not true at all. That was a coach's decision. There was an adjustment we had to make.

There was a forward on their team named Chet Walker, and he was hurting us badly, okay? So I had my backup center, it was a guy named Wayne Embry. Now Embry had been in the league seven or eight years, and he played against Wilt all those years. So at half time I said to him, "Wayne, I'm going to try something. It's not new. I want you to guard Wilt. Okay? I have to take care of Chet Walker." And see, when I made that substitution everybody thought it was trying to stay out of foul trouble, something like that, which was to me the best part of that because I made adjustments that they didn't know what I was doing. So they couldn't make a counter adjustment. You see if you make an adjustment, and they know what you're doing, well they can just counter it. But I made an adjustment, they thought it was to get off of Wilt. They didn't know it was to get on Chet. Now Wilt had a game plan, but his game plan was counting on me trying to guard him. When we put Wayne on him, he guarded him a completely different way.

I think that that move that I made at half time was the most important move I made as a coach in that series, because it worked, and we got accomplished what we wanted to get accomplished without them knowing what we were trying to accomplish.




And of course Chamberlain's '67 season is rivaled by no other in NBA history.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=171377&page=8

[PHILA]

Despite popular belief, Chamberlain actually did step up in key playoff games as well as playoff elimination games & series:


Wilt Chamberlain


1960 Game 3 vs. Nationals (best of 3 series at the time): 53 points in a 20 point win.

1962 Game 5 vs. Nationals: 56 points, 35 rebounds in a 17 point win.

1962 Game 6 vs Celtics: 32 points in a 10 point win

1962 Game 7 vs Celtics: 22 points, 21 rebounds in a 2 point loss

1964 Game 5 vs. Hawks: 50 points in a 24 point win.

1964 Game 7 vs. Hawks: 39 points, 26 rebounds, 12 blocks in a 10 point win.

1965 Game 6 vs. Celtics: 30 points, 26 rebounds in a 6 point win

1965 Game 7 vs. Celtics: 30 points, 32 rebounds in a 1 point loss

1966 Game 5 vs. Celtics: 46 points, 34 rebounds in an 8 point loss

1967 Game 2 vs. Royals: 37 points, 27 rebounds, 11 assists in a 21 point win.

1967 Game 3 vs. Royals: 16 points, 30 rebounds, 19 assists in a 15 point win.

1967 Game 1 vs. Celtics: 24 points, 32 rebounds, 13 assists, 12 blocks in a 15 point win.

1967 Game 3 vs. Celtics: 20 points, 41 rebounds, 9 assists in an 11 point win.

1967 Game 5 vs. Celtics: 29 points, 36 rebounds, 13 assists in a 24 point win.

1968 Game 6 vs. Knicks: 25 points, 27 rebounds in an 18 point win. Little known fact is that Chamberlain led BOTH TEAMS in points, rebounds, and assists for the entire series, whilst nursing an assortment of injuries, including his annual shin splints. This against two Hall Of Fame centers Walt Bellamy & Willis Reed. Apparently Willis used to tremble at the mere sight of Luke Jackson in the MSG tunnel pre-game. :lol

1968 Game 7 vs Celtics: 14 points, 34 rebounds in a 4 point loss (This despite two touches in the entire 4th quarter, the smartest move Russell has ever made in his career switching himself over to guard Chet).

1969 Game 7 vs. Celtics: 18 points, 27 rebounds in a 2 point loss (Head coach leaves him on the bench due to a personal grudge.)

1970 Game 5 vs. Suns: 36 points, 14 rebounds in a 17 point win

1970 Game 7 vs. Suns: 30 points, 27 rebounds, 11 blocks in a 35 point win (helped lead Lakers back from 1-3 deficit)

1970 Game 6 vs. Knicks: 45 points, 27 rebounds in a 22 point win

1970 Game 7 vs. Knicks: 21 points, 24 rebounds in a 14 point loss

(Understand that he should have not even been playing in the 1969-70 season after his injury, but was able to rehab his knee in time with his workouts in volleyball, a sport he would later become a Hall Of Famer in as well.)

1971 Game 7 vs. Bulls: 25 points, 18 rebounds in an 11 point win

1971 Game 5 vs. Bucks: 23 points, 12 rebounds, 6 blocks in an 18 point loss without Elgin Baylor or Jerry West. (Alcindor in this game had 20 points, 15 rebounds, and 3 blocks).

1973 Game 7 vs. Bulls: 21 points, 28 rebounds in a 3 point win (Bulls had the ball and a one point lead with 30 or so seconds left in the 4th. Norm Van Lier goes up for the shot only to have it rejected by the "big choker" Wilt Chamberlain. Chamberlain blocked Van Lier's shot right to Gail Goodrich down court for the go ahead basket. Is there any mention of this clutch defensive play from Chamberlain in Bill Simmons "Book Of Basketball"?

1973 Game 5 vs. Knicks: 23 points, 21 rebounds in a 9 point loss (a hobbled Jerry West finished with 12 points)

[PHILA]

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar


1970 Game 5 vs. Knicks: 27 points, 11 rebounds on 6/17 shooting in a 36 point loss.

1972 Game 6 vs. Lakers: 35 points in a 4 point loss.

1973 series vs. Warriors: 22.8 ppg, 16.2 rpg, 2.8 apg, 42.8 FG%, 54.3 FT%. (This while the "disgraceful choker" & "3rd fiddle" Oscar Robertson had averages of 21.2 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 7.5 apg, 50.0 FG%, 91.2 FT%.)

1974 Game 6 vs. Celtics: 34 points, 8 rebounds, 6 assists in a 1 point win on his game winning shot.

1974 Game 7 vs. Celtics: 23 points, 13 rebounds in a 15 point loss in what really was no less of a 'choke' performance than any of Chamberlains big playoff games.

1977 Game 7 vs. Warriors: 36 points, 28 rebounds in a 13 point win. Truly a marvelous Chamberlain-like performance.

1977 Game 4 vs. Blazers: 30 points, 17 rebounds in a 4 point loss (luckily for you guys this game is actually available for viewing).

1978 Game 2 vs. Sonics: 24 points, 18 rebounds, 7 blocks in a 6 point win.

1978 Game 3 vs. Sonics: 31 points in a 9 point loss.

1980 Game 5 vs. Sixers: 40 points in a gutsy effort to give the Lakers a 3-2 lead.

1981 Game 1 vs. Rockets: 21 points, 14 rebounds in a 4 point loss (outplayed by Moses Malone who had 38 points and 23 rebounds.)

1983 Game 1 vs. Spurs: 30 points, 8 rebounds, 3 blocks in a 12 point win (held Gilmore to 7 points)

1983 Game 1 vs. Sixers: 20 points, 4 rebounds in a 6 point loss (Moses had 27 points & 18 rebounds).

1983 Game 2 vs. Sixers: 23 points, 4 rebounds in a 10 point loss (Moses had 24 points, 12 rebounds)

1983 Game 3 vs. Sixers: 23 points, 15 rebounds in a 17 point loss (Moses had 28 points, 19 rebounds)

1983 Game 4 vs. Sixers: 28 points, 7 rebounds in a 7 point loss (Moses had 24 points, 23 rebounds)




Michael Jordan


1985 Game 3 vs. Bucks: 35 points including the game winner in a 2 point win.

1986 Game 3 vs. Celtics: 19 points in an 18 point loss

1987 Game 3 vs. Celtics: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RVMJSCTj5Y) 30 points on 9/30 FG in an 11 point loss (horribly outplayed by Larry Bird in crunch time)

1988 Game 3 vs. Pistons: 23 points in a 22 point loss

1988 Game 4 vs. Pistons: 24 points in a 19 point loss

1988 Game 5 vs. Pistons: 25 points (only 9 in the 2nd half) in a 7 point loss

1989 Game 4 vs. Cavaliers: 50 points (however he choked at the foul line with a chance to close out the series, missing two free throws with his team up by one point with 9 seconds remaining.)

1989 Game 4 vs. Pistons: 23 points in a 6 point loss (held to two field goals in the final 41 minutes)

1989 Game 5 vs. Pistons: 18 points on 8 attempted shots in an 11 point loss.

1990 Game 7 vs. Pistons: 31 points, 8 rebounds, 9 assists in a 19 point loss (When Chamberlain has even even greater performance in a much narrower 7th game loss, he is labeled a choker while Jordan is the hero for a game like this. Shame.)


1991 Game 4 vs. Pistons: 29 points, 8 rebounds, 8 assists in a 21 point win

1992 Game 6 vs. Cavaliers: 29 points, 8 rebounds, 8 assists on 37% FG in a 5 point win (Pippen with 29 points, 12 rebounds, 9 assists).

1992 Game 4 vs Blazers: 32 points, 6 assists, 5 rebounds on 42% FG in a 5 point loss (held scoreless in the last 10 minutes of the game).

1992 Game 6 vs. Blazers: 33 points, 4 assists, 4 rebounds in a 4 point win (With Jordan not performing up to par, Phil Jackson elects to play 4 bench players along with Scottie Pippen, who manage to cut a 17 point deficit down to 3 in a matter of minutes.)

1993 Game 1 vs. Knicks: 27 points, 2 rebounds, 5 assists on 37% FG in an 8 point loss. Jordan is outplayed by former CBA player John Starks who had 25 points, 5 rebounds, 4 assists on 57% FG.


1993 Game 3 vs. Knicks: 22 points, 11 assists, 8 rebounds on 17% FG in a 20 point win.

1993 Game 5 vs. Knicks: 29 points, 10 rebounds, 8 assists in a 3 point win (the game was saved for the Bulls by the referees (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dL_eiZpdc4Q#t=7m20s) and by Charles Smith who threw the basketball into the bottom of the backboard on his 3rd layup "attempt" at the end of the game.

1993 Game 6 vs. Knicks: 25 points, 2 rebounds, 9 assists on 33% FG in a 12 point win. (Held to 4 points all on free throws in the 4th quarter and zero field goals in the last 22 minutes of the game.)

1995 Game 4 vs. Hornets: 24 points, 4 rebounds, 5 assists on 38% FG in a 1 point win (Pippen had 24 points, 8 rebounds, 6 assists on 60% FG)

1995 Game 1 vs. Magic: 19 points, 5 rebounds, 3 assists, 8 turnovers on 36% FG in a 3 point loss (Had to critical errors at the end first allowing choker Nick Anderson to steal the ball from him leading to a Grant dunk and passing the basketball out of bounds on their offensive possession to conclude matters).

1996 Game 6 vs. Sonics: 22 points, 9 rebounds, 7 assists on 26% FG in a 12 point win (Was unjustly awarded Dennis Rodman's Final's MVP trophy.)

1997 Game 3 vs. Jazz: 26 points, 3 rebounds, 6 assists on 41% FG in an 11 point loss (Pippen had 27 points, 4 rebounds, 4 assists on 54% FG)

1997 Game 4 vs. Jazz: 22 points, 4 rebounds, 4 assists on 41% FG in a 5 point loss an outplayed by Stockton down the stretch.

1997 Game 5 vs. Jazz: 38 points, 7 rebounds, 5 assists in a gutsy performance to help lead his team to a 2 point win (Malone's selfishness cost the Jazz any semblance of a chance at winning a game they easily could have).

1998 Game 7 vs Pacers: 28 points, 9 rebounds, 8 assists (stepped up big as a unit when they needed to led by Jordan to put the Pacers away.)


1998 Game 5 vs. Jazz: 28 points, 4 assists, 4 rebounds on 35% FG (Airballs the potential game winner for the championship at the buzzer).

1998 Game 6 vs. Jazz: 45 points, 1 rebound, 1 assist (Pippen's gutty effort in the 2ndd half is overlooked as Jordan has no choice but to put all his energy into carrying the scoring load. Despite two questionable referee judgments being shot clock buzzer beaters from Howard Eisley and Ron Harper being incorrectly whistled in favor of the Bulls, this was a very impressive performance and victory.)

[Fatal9]

1970 Game 5 vs. Knicks: 27 points, 11 rebounds on 6/17 shooting
err, he shot 11/22 and 5/5 from FT line (didn't play in fourth quarter to pad his stats in the blowout though).

And if that isn't a biased list of games I don't know what is. Where is Wilt's 6/21 stinker which was a big reason why the 3-1 lead was blown? You seem to be listing Jordan's game 5 and 6s, hell even game 1s and basically every bad game you can get your hands on but hiding Wilt's. Should I really pull up a more "accurate" list? What about some of the '69 finals games? Or the first 4 games of the '66 series?


1989 Game 4 vs. Cavaliers: 50 points (however he choked at the foul line with a chance to close out the series, missing two free throws with his team up by one point with 9 seconds remaining.)
A Chamberlain groupie grilling Jordan about choking at the FT line? Is this really what I'm reading here :oldlol:

[PHILA]

err, he shot 11/22 and 5/5 from FT line (didn't play in fourth quarter to pad his stats in the blowout though).My mistake, as the 6-17 was his 1st half statistics. Of course I'm sure Coach Larry Costello took him out when the game was out of reach. But was he statpadding when he played 47 minutes in a 117-106 loss to the Warriors in the first game of the '73 playoffs or when he played 47 minutes in a 93-72 victory over the Lakers in the first game of the '72 playoffs (a game that the Bucks led by 26 after 3 quarters and as much as 31 early in the 4th)? Or a 1973-74 regular season victory during which he played 46 minutes (with the flu) in a game against the then 9-16 Rockets (who finished 30-52) who were trailing the Bucks by 16 at the half and never came within single digits the rest of the way? Best not to rely on biased news paper articles, as there is no way to determine the momentum shifts and runs during any given point in the game. What might the Warriors strategy have been offensively? What impact did early foul trouble have for either team? Would they foolishly attempt to have Wilt taking 40 shots a game like he did in the regular season hoping that one man could beat the greatest dynasty in sports history?

In the '62 series against Boston Coach Frank McGuire had moved Wilt up the top of the key (high post) to expand their offensive options as opposed to being too predictable against Russell, forcing him to play more conservative defense. Not only was Wilt scoring more frequently than he did in the regular season and still out scoring Russell, the Warriors starters were out scoring the Celtics starters. But the C's 3 key bench players (K.C, Ramsey, Loscy) brutalized the Warriors bench by an even bigger margin. Who is to say Wilt gave up on any hope of winning the game with his late game scoring. Or perhaps "heroic attempts" as I'm sure it would be declared for any other player not named Wilt.




A Chamberlain groupie grilling Jordan about choking at the FT line? Is this really what I'm reading here How many close playoff games has Chamberlain lost at foul line? The 46/34 game was a bad example IMO as Boston had it wrapped up. It was a valiant effort, but to no avail at that point in the series.

Lets not be like some others on these boards in the inexplicable ranking of Hakeem Olajuwon as the third best center of all time (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4852908&postcount=11)(and probably the 5th best player at any position to ever play).

[Fatal9]

Also, :facepalm at these Wilt stans yet again derailing another thread with their drivel. You guys ever take a break? Do you have a little bat signal that goes off anytime someone doesn't worship your man crush? I mean the guy is on your mind every breathing moment and it's starting to look a bit suspect. I know how excited you get over footage of Wilt working out (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4618420&postcount=130) and when he's wearing those sexy uniforms (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4547664&postcount=26), you can't help yourself but no one wants to read this shit week after week, month after month. It's been discussed over and over again, argued, disproved and you keep spamming relentlessly.


How many close playoff games has Chamberlain lost at foul line?
Are you this unaware of your own hero?

[PHILA]

Just attempting to prevent posters (a fair chunk of whom happen to be fans of the Los Angeles Lakers franchise for some stunning reason) from spreading false creedence. I have defended other top old school legends as well. You are correct though I should tone down as there is no point in any of this. We can only wait until those vintage games are released. :applause:

[ShaqAttack3234]

Also, :facepalm at these Wilt stans yet again derailing another thread with their drivel. You guys ever take a break? Do you have a little bat signal that goes off anytime someone doesn't worship your man crush? I mean the guy is on your mind every breathing moment and it's starting to look a bit suspect. I know how excited you get over footage of Wilt working out (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4618420&postcount=130) and when he's wearing those sexy uniforms (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4547664&postcount=26)

:roll:

[catch24]

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar


1970 Game 5 vs. Knicks: 27 points, 11 rebounds on 6/17 shooting in a 36 point loss.

1972 Game 6 vs. Lakers: 35 points in a 4 point loss.

1973 series vs. Warriors: 22.8 ppg, 16.2 rpg, 2.8 apg, 42.8 FG%, 54.3 FT%. (This while the "disgraceful choker" & "3rd fiddle" Oscar Robertson had averages of 21.2 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 7.5 apg, 50.0 FG%, 91.2 FT%.)

1974 Game 6 vs. Celtics: 34 points, 8 rebounds, 6 assists in a 1 point win on his game winning shot.

1974 Game 7 vs. Celtics: 23 points, 13 rebounds in a 15 point loss in what really was no less of a 'choke' performance than any of Chamberlains big playoff games.

1977 Game 7 vs. Warriors: 36 points, 28 rebounds in a 13 point win. Truly a marvelous Chamberlain-like performance.

1977 Game 4 vs. Blazers: 30 points, 17 rebounds in a 4 point loss (luckily for you guys this game is actually available for viewing).

1978 Game 2 vs. Sonics: 24 points, 18 rebounds, 7 blocks in a 6 point win.

1978 Game 3 vs. Sonics: 31 points in a 9 point loss.

1980 Game 5 vs. Sixers: 40 points in a gutsy effort to give the Lakers a 3-2 lead.

1981 Game 1 vs. Rockets: 21 points, 14 rebounds in a 4 point loss (outplayed by Moses Malone who had 38 points and 23 rebounds.)

1983 Game 1 vs. Spurs: 30 points, 8 rebounds, 3 blocks in a 12 point win (held Gilmore to 7 points)

1983 Game 1 vs. Sixers: 20 points, 4 rebounds in a 6 point loss (Moses had 27 points & 18 rebounds).

1983 Game 2 vs. Sixers: 23 points, 4 rebounds in a 10 point loss (Moses had 24 points, 12 rebounds)

1983 Game 3 vs. Sixers: 23 points, 15 rebounds in a 17 point loss (Moses had 28 points, 19 rebounds)

1983 Game 4 vs. Sixers: 28 points, 7 rebounds in a 7 point loss (Moses had 24 points, 23 rebounds)




Michael Jordan


1985 Game 3 vs. Bucks: 35 points including the game winner in a 2 point win.

1986 Game 3 vs. Celtics: 19 points in an 18 point loss

1987 Game 3 vs. Celtics: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RVMJSCTj5Y) 30 points on 9/30 FG in an 11 point loss (horribly outplayed by Larry Bird in crunch time)

1988 Game 3 vs. Pistons: 23 points in a 22 point loss

1988 Game 4 vs. Pistons: 24 points in a 19 point loss

1988 Game 5 vs. Pistons: 25 points (only 9 in the 2nd half) in a 7 point loss

1989 Game 4 vs. Cavaliers: 50 points (however he choked at the foul line with a chance to close out the series, missing two free throws with his team up by one point with 9 seconds remaining.)

1989 Game 4 vs. Pistons: 23 points in a 6 point loss (held to two field goals in the final 41 minutes)

1989 Game 5 vs. Pistons: 18 points on 8 attempted shots in an 11 point loss.

1990 Game 7 vs. Pistons: 31 points, 8 rebounds, 9 assists in a 19 point loss (When Chamberlain has even even greater performance in a much narrower 7th game loss, he is labeled a choker while Jordan is the hero for a game like this. Shame.)


1991 Game 4 vs. Pistons: 29 points, 8 rebounds, 8 assists in a 21 point win

1992 Game 6 vs. Cavaliers: 29 points, 8 rebounds, 8 assists on 37% FG in a 5 point win (Pippen with 29 points, 12 rebounds, 9 assists).

1992 Game 4 vs Blazers: 32 points, 6 assists, 5 rebounds on 42% FG in a 5 point loss (held scoreless in the last 10 minutes of the game).

1992 Game 6 vs. Blazers: 33 points, 4 assists, 4 rebounds in a 4 point win (With Jordan not performing up to par, Phil Jackson elects to play 4 bench players along with Scottie Pippen, who manage to cut a 17 point deficit down to 3 in a matter of minutes.)

1993 Game 1 vs. Knicks: 27 points, 2 rebounds, 5 assists on 37% FG in an 8 point loss. Jordan is outplayed by former CBA player John Starks who had 25 points, 5 rebounds, 4 assists on 57% FG.


1993 Game 3 vs. Knicks: 22 points, 11 assists, 8 rebounds on 17% FG in a 20 point win.

1993 Game 5 vs. Knicks: 29 points, 10 rebounds, 8 assists in a 3 point win (the game was saved for the Bulls by the referees (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dL_eiZpdc4Q#t=7m20s) and by Charles Smith who threw the basketball into the bottom of the backboard on his 3rd layup "attempt" at the end of the game.

1993 Game 6 vs. Knicks: 25 points, 2 rebounds, 9 assists on 33% FG in a 12 point win. (Held to 4 points all on free throws in the 4th quarter and zero field goals in the last 22 minutes of the game.)

1995 Game 4 vs. Hornets: 24 points, 4 rebounds, 5 assists on 38% FG in a 1 point win (Pippen had 24 points, 8 rebounds, 6 assists on 60% FG)

1995 Game 1 vs. Magic: 19 points, 5 rebounds, 3 assists, 8 turnovers on 36% FG in a 3 point loss (Had to critical errors at the end first allowing choker Nick Anderson to steal the ball from him leading to a Grant dunk and passing the basketball out of bounds on their offensive possession to conclude matters).

1996 Game 6 vs. Sonics: 22 points, 9 rebounds, 7 assists on 26% FG in a 12 point win (Was unjustly awarded Dennis Rodman's Final's MVP trophy.)

1997 Game 3 vs. Jazz: 26 points, 3 rebounds, 6 assists on 41% FG in an 11 point loss (Pippen had 27 points, 4 rebounds, 4 assists on 54% FG)

1997 Game 4 vs. Jazz: 22 points, 4 rebounds, 4 assists on 41% FG in a 5 point loss an outplayed by Stockton down the stretch.

1997 Game 5 vs. Jazz: 38 points, 7 rebounds, 5 assists in a gutsy performance to help lead his team to a 2 point win (Malone's selfishness cost the Jazz any semblance of a chance at winning a game they easily could have).

1998 Game 7 vs Pacers: 28 points, 9 rebounds, 8 assists (stepped up big as a unit when they needed to led by Jordan to put the Pacers away.)


1998 Game 5 vs. Jazz: 28 points, 4 assists, 4 rebounds on 35% FG (Airballs the potential game winner for the championship at the buzzer).

1998 Game 6 vs. Jazz: 45 points, 1 rebound, 1 assist (Pippen's gutty effort in the 2ndd half is overlooked as Jordan has no choice but to put all his energy into carrying the scoring load. Despite two questionable referee judgments being shot clock buzzer beaters from Howard Eisley and Ron Harper being incorrectly whistled in favor of the Bulls, this was a very impressive performance and victory.)

Really? :oldlol:. Despite all this nonsense, Jordan was STILL more consistent in the playoffs... Irrelevant numbers here, Abe.

[DatWasNashty]

Yes, it is pretty ridiculous to think that Hakeem's playoff runs in '94 and '95 were better than MJ's from 1989-1991. Yes.

And what does who wins MVP, or MVP voting, have to do with WHO THE BETTER PLAYER IS? Hakeem simply was never as good at his best as MJ was at his best. Period. There's not a huge gap, but it's a discernible one. That's why one of these players was being called the greatest to ever play by his 5th full season while the other was never called that, even during this supposed "better than MJ" run in '94 and '95. Talent and ability shine through on the court.

Don't worry, though - you can Fatal, biggest Jordan hater on the board, can continue patting each other on the back. Feel free.
Yeah, you're pretty much an idiot. LOL @ you repeating the same bullsh!t when I've gone over it several times.

I never said Hakeem was better than Jordan. I already stated I'd gave a minimal edge to '91-93 MJ over '93-95 Hakeem. But, acting like there's a big gap or these guys aren't on the same plateau is fallacy. All I mentioned was his two championship runs are on Jordan's level with '95 being superior under proper context. If you've watched the playoffs those two years, which you obviously haven't as evident by your posts, you wouldn't be throwing a tantrum like you are now.

You're also not taking into account what team success does to your legacy and perception. There is no way people would take Hakeem over Jordan, someone who was coming off of two dominant seasons and winning championships in both years. It's the same reason why several people thought Hakeem was the best player going into the '95-96 season.


lol at this toolbag trying to act tough in text. Calm the hell down before you break your fingers typing so feverishly.

Jordan's 1991, 1992 and 1993 postseasons eclipse EVERY season Hakeem's played, period, end of story. Most sane people know that was Jordan's prime, and those SANE people realize Kareem is the only player to have a comparable 3-4 year stretch. Not Duncan, not Hakeem, not Kobe, and all other second tiers.

Child please. You were wandering around in your dad's scrotum during Hakeem's championship years. Your opinion, much like everyone else's, is heavily influenced by the media and general public. Hakeem didn't have 1/10th of the marketing Jordan had the pleasure of. Or even Shaq who was heavily publicized since his rookie year (all the rap albums, pepsi and reebok commericals), Ewing due to playing in New York / getting on national TV or David Robinson thanks to his class, sportsmanship and Nike sponsorship. Anybody who isn't marketed enough will not get heavy coverage which means people won't hold him in as high regard as they would with the ones who're in the spotlight majority of the time.

Hakeem not being marketed enough had everything to do with the small market in Houston, lack of national exposure, being of Nigerian descent, him being unable to speak coherent English and just having an aggressive and tenacious demeanor for most of his early years (1985-1991).

How do Jordan's postseasons "eclipse" Hakeem's? Let me guess, your reasoning is that because Jordan is Jordan and his are simply better? Good to know.

[PHILA]

Really? :oldlol:. Despite all this nonsense, Jordan was STILL more consistent in the playoffs... Irrelevant numbers here, Abe.
Your original quote was attempting to equate statistics to on court performance, and because of this you have dismissed Larry Bird's level of dominance during the NBA's golden years ('84-86).

[PHILA]

:roll:Is Bill Russell still an inferior playoff performer to the likes of Olajuwon?



It's been discussed over and over again, argued, disproved and you keep spamming relentlessly.

I don't recall much (if anything) ever being disproved.

[catch24]

I enjoy trolling. How do Jordan's postseasons "eclipse" Hakeem's? Let me guess, your reasoning is that because Jordan is Jordan and his are simply better? Good to know.

lol at this clown quoting Chad Johnson. I've already explained why Jordan's 3-4 year stretch "eclipses" Hakeem's. Learn how to read. Jordan took his teams to 3 straight Finals, winning them, all while putting up better numbers throughout the postseason(s).



Your original quote was attempting to equate statistics to on court performance, and because of this you have dismissed Larry Bird's level of dominance during the NBA's golden years ('84-86).

Statistics are part of your 'on the court performances', though. I've "dismissed" Bird, because Jordan from '91-93 was the better all around player. From scoring, to defense (hell his passing in the '91 Finals was ridiculous). Jordan simply did more when adding up his accolades, regular season and playoff performances.

[DatWasNashty]

I'm a stat geek.

:applause:


I've already explained why Jordan's 3-4 year stretch "eclipses" Hakeem's. Learn how to read.
You haven't explained sh!t, kid. This is what you stated. Do you know what a proper explanation is? Or are you still in elementary school?

Jordan's 1991, 1992 and 1993 postseasons eclipse EVERY season Hakeem's played, period, end of story. Most sane people know that was Jordan's prime, and those SANE people realize Kareem is the only player to have a comparable 3-4 year stretch. Not Duncan, not Hakeem, not Kobe, and all other second tiers.
Nice explanation there. Aren't you the same dude who said Hakeem is the GOAT center? Why the sudden switch? Were you brainwashed by what the consensus suggests? Trying to fit yourself in the masses of the media?
Hakeem is definitely not overrated - the most skilled offensive center ever IMO. Defensively, he's second to none, hell better than Bill Russel...certainly.

1992-93 NBA Defensive Player of the Year
1993-94 NBA Defensive Player of the Year
3830 blocks - #1 all time
Career 94.9 defensive win shares - #1 all time
top 3 Center no question
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3299065&postcount=68

Hakeem is the greatest center ever IMO

Agreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3299103&postcount=72

Go ahead and edit your posts. You sound like an idiotic kid when you say "Agreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed."


Jordan took his teams to 3 straight Finals
He had a better team around him so I'd expect him to have more finals appearances. And Hakeem could've possibly had three straight finals appearances as well since the Rockets were robbed late in game 7 in 1993. There were three bad calls (one in the 4th, the other two in overtime) that swung the mometum in Seattle's favor. Seattle did have homecourt and all. Rockets win that series and it's a toss up if they beat us or not. They got the better of us in the next two years but we were a better team in 1993 with Chuck motivated and our team at full health.

winning them
Hakeem won two of his three. The one he lost was where he wasn't favored to win and faced what several people consider to be the best team ever. Never mind the fact that the Rockets weren't supposed to get there and upset the Showtime Lakers with Hakeem leading the pack and destroying whoever they threw at him.

all while putting up better numbers throughout the postseason(s).
Numbers are good and all. I don't base my views on numbers only. Numbers don't take into account the vastly superior defense Hakeem played, better competition he faced and his value to the team.

[the GIBBET]

That said, he's yet to show that he can truly dominate night in and night out. LeBron has been doing that for several years. Dwight's now five years into his career and he's not there.


Are you kidding!?!?!?!

He just became the first player in LEAGUE HISTORY to lead the league in rebounds and blocked shots for two straight years.


Oh, I see. You think the only way someone can dominate in basketball is to put up 30 points per game. You think its coincidence Orlando has made the finals and conference finals the last two years with a cast that includes some combination of Rashard Lewis, Turkoglu, Rafer Alston, VC, Jameer Nelson and some average bench players??? Howard is a beast you moron.

God I fugging hate the average fan of the nba. fuggin dummies.

[the GIBBET]

I personally think Dwight is crap


retard alert.

[AirJordan&Magic]

Hakeem didn't even lead his team in Win Shares in the season nor playoffs in in 1995. When you add up Drexler's Win Shares in the season and playoffs that year he beats out Hakeem.

2. Clyde Drexler*-HOU 3.0
3. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 2.8

Regular Season that year.

9. Clyde Drexler*-TOT 11.7
11. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 10.7

So yeah, his own teammate had more total win shares than he did in 1995.

:oldlol: And people actually use this dumbass statistic to argue in favor of a player???...

So after reading the win shares of both Clyde and Hakeem in the 1995 season, you actually came back to this thread and posted that comment like it was to be taken serious?... Especially when it was obvious that Hakeem was EASILY the best on that team?

I always laugh when people bring up win shares. Why?

A) Noone can ever accurately break it down.
B) It's a ****ing statistic that was originally made for baseball! :oldlol:

[PHILA]

Statistics are part of your 'on the court performances', though. I've "dismissed" Bird, because Jordan from '91-93 was the better all around player. From scoring, to defense (hell his passing in the '91 Finals was ridiculous). Jordan simply did more when adding up his accolades, regular season and playoff performances.

Imagine if Havlicek didn't steal the ball in '65. They most certainly go on to win the championship as the Lakers had no dominant center. Chamberlain averaged 29 points, 27 rebounds, and 4 assists in the '65 playoffs. Surely this would be considered one of the great all time runs had they won the title with several games where he dominated a peaked Bill Russell.



Game 1: Celtics win 108-98

Wilt - 33 points, 31 rebounds, 3 assists
Russell - 11 points, 31 rebounds, 6 assists

"Every game against Chamberlain is three days work," Russell said. "He's always so tough to play there's no talking about degrees."

"I thought it was one of Wilt's best games ever. It was a case of their defense and their cornermen doing a better job than our cornermen," said Philadelphia Coach Dolph Schayes. "I though Wilt outplayed Russell. They both played well."

"They hack pretty good in there," Schayes said. "The Celtics foul Wilt any way they can and get away with it."


Game 2: 76ers win 109-103

Wilt - 30 points, 39 rebounds, 8 assists, 8 blocks
Russell - 12 points, 16 rebounds, 5 assists

Russell had nothing to say. Asked why Chamberlain was able to dominate him so completely, the 6'9 Boston captain replied sullenly, "You saw the game, didn't you?"

Chamberlain however, refuses to make a vendetta of his joust with Russell.

"I don't go into a game with the idea of beating Bill Russell. I go out there to beat Boston - not Russell, " says Chamberlain. "They're the world champions and to beat them you have to play your best."



Game 3: Celtics win 112-94

Boston's Bill Russell has successfully made a surprise raid on Wilt Chamberlain's domain - scoring.

"Russell really beat us with those tap-ins and he did a great job on the offensive boards," said Chamberlain. "Heck, yes, he surprised me the way he scored early in the game. But I don't know what I could do about it."

Russell held the 7-foot-1 Chamberlain without a field goal until there were eight seconds left in the first half.

Chamberlain finished ahead 24-29 in the game and 37-26 in rebounds but the damage had been done. Russell had the better shooting average, a 9-7 edge in field goals, 8-1 bulge in assists, and was ahead 3-1 in steals.


Game 4: 76ers win 134-131 (OT)

Hal Greer's 35-foot twist-around shot as the buzzer sounded tied the game up in regulation and the 76ers went ahead in overtime to defeat the Celtics 134-131 Friday night and knot the Eastern National Basketball Association playoff finals at two apiece.

Wilt Chamberlain, a demon on both offense and defense, led the 76ers with 34 points & 34 rebounds, followed by Chet Walker's 31 and Greer's 27

Wilt Chamberlain, the 7-foot-1 inch pro basketball star, said he was consulting his attorney about a Sports Illustrated magazine article appearing this week under his byline.

The Philadelphia 76ers player said the title of the article was distorted and many unauthorized thoughts interjected in the story. The article is entitled, "My Life in a Bush League."

In New York, a spokesman for the magazine said the article "was a completely accurate statement of remarks made over two or three weeks, many of them recorded on tape."

"I would have have to be out of my mind to approve the title placed above my byline by the magazine," Chamberlain said in a statement. "I feel that Sports Illustrated has given a distorted title and interjected many unauthorized thoughts to my story without my consent. It has subjected me to uncalled for embarrassment and humiliation, and I am discussing my legal rights with my attorney."

A source close to the 76er management said the article actually wasn't too bad "but why couldn't the magazine wait until after the season was finished before publishing it." Bob Ottum did the writing after spending many weeks following Wilt around the league.



Game 5: Celtcs win 114-108

The Celtics wound up 114-108 winners in the fifth game of their best-of-seven series after leading by an average of a dozen points through most of the late stages of the Boston Garden battle. Boston's Bill Russell lost in the point battle with Philadelphia's Wilt Chamberlain (30-12) but took everything else. He mastered Wilt in rebounds(28-21), blocked shots (12-2), assists (7-2), and steals (3-0).



Game 6: 76ers win 112-106

A Philadelphia crows of 11,182 saw the 76ers take a 17-point lead at 61-44, then survive a Boston rally that put the Celtics within three points 107-104 with 90 seconds left. Hal Greer's one-hander and a free throw by Chet Walker pulled the 76ers out of danger.

Big Wilt Chamberlain, hampered by five fouls, didn't score in the last quarter, but was high for the game with 30 points.




Game 7: Celtics win 110-109

http://www.megavideo.com/?d=WJYZJVCA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESDFppbQ2zM#t=2m32s

[catch24]

You haven't explained sh!t, kid. This is what you stated. Do you know what a proper explanation is? Or are you still in elementary school?

Apparently you don't. I mean you can't even comprehend a basic explanation. Nice.


Nice explanation there. Aren't you the same dude who said Hakeem is the GOAT center? Why the sudden switch? Were you brainwashed by what the consensus suggests? Trying to fit yourself in the masses of the media?
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3299065&postcount=68

Once again, comprehension issues "wee one". I said MOST SKILLED, which I feel he is. How you confuse 'most skilled' with 'best' is beyond me. Then again, I'm not surprised, seeing you're pretty much a tool.



http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3299103&postcount=72

Go ahead and edit your posts. You sound like an idiotic kid when you say "Agreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed."

LMAO at this dbag digging through old threads. Further proving you're nothing more than a tiny troll.

If you read the entire thread you'd realize I was exaggerating. People were discrediting Hakeem with, well, exaggerations.


He had a better team around him so I'd expect him to have more finals appearances. And Hakeem could've possibly had three straight finals appearances as well since the Rockets were robbed late in game 7 in 1993. There were three bad calls (one in the 4th, the other two in overtime) that swung the mometum in Seattle's favor. Seattle did have homecourt and all. Rockets win that series and it's a toss up if they beat us or not. They got the better of us in the next two years but we were a better team in 1993 with Chuck motivated and our team at full health.

Wrong. With or without a better team, he still put up better stats, and had more individual accolades that weren't because of his 'team'. Keep reaching "tiny troll". With the team accomplishments, the comparison is a joke, Jordan wins easily.

[whatever666]

Lebron <------------- gap -------------> Dwight
Jordan <-gap-> Hakeem

[catch24]

Imagine if Havlicek didn't steal the ball in '65. They most certainly go on to win the championship as the Lakers had no dominant center. Chamberlain averaged 29 points, 27 rebounds, and 4 assists in the '65 playoffs. Surely this would be considered one of the great all time runs had they won the title with several games where he dominated a peaked Bill Russell.

What does Russell have to do with Bird, and the previous post you made?

BTW, for the misinformed posters, Jordan having a better 3-4 stretch from '90-93 (vs Hakeem, Bird and whomever) isn't JUST because of 'better stats'. Jordan was the more versatile scorer (fantastic in the post, superb midrange game, could shoot from the outside, take it in strong all while shooting a high % from the FT line, nevermind from the field), the best perimeter defender not named Pippen, was an excellent playmaker and rebounder -- take a look at some of his series vs the Bucks, Lakers, Pistons, Suns, Sixers and Knicks. So once AGAIN, it isn't just "stats" and "media brainwash" (dumbest thing I've heard btw). It's called using your eyes.

[DatWasNashty]

Once again, comprehension issues "wee one". I said MOST SKILLED, which I feel he is. How you confuse 'most skilled' with 'best' is beyond me. Then again, I'm not surprised, seeing you're pretty much a tool.
There is no comprehension issue, kid. I was paying emphasis on how hard you rode Hakeem in those two posts. Saying he's better than Russell defensively, most skilled, GOAT center etc. Only one who lacks reading comprehension here is you. Definitely ride the short bus judging by your posts.


LMAO at this dbag digging through old threads. Further proving you're nothing more than a tiny troll.

If you read the entire thread you'd realize I was exaggerating. People were discrediting Hakeem with, well, exaggerations.
Don't moonwalk, kid. Nice cover up there with the "exaggeration." You basically agreed with the notion of Hakeem being the GOAT center. Now, you stated he's moved down to the second tier where the 'consensus' has him. Pretty obvious your opinion is heavily influenced by others. Keep trying to fit in, though. Probably makes you feel better. And I didn't exactly dig through the thread. It was bumped last week which is how and when I came across it.

Wrong. With or without a better team, he still put up better stats, and had more individual accolades that weren't because of his 'team'. Keep reaching "tiny troll". With the team accomplishments, the comparison is a joke, Jordan wins easily.

I've gone across all this garbage before. You're pretty much a fukking idiot. All the trash you're spewing is redundant and played out. You obviously haven't lived through the era judging by your posts so I have to take your opinion with a grain of salt. You're unable to look beyond statistical measurements and accolades which are subjective and heavily based on reputation. How am I wrong when I say Hakeem COULD have had the finals in 1993? It's very much possible given the fact that the Rockets lost due to a couple of horrific calls and the fact that they matched up well with us (season match up was tied 2-2 and Rockets took us out in 1994 and 1995).

Your stats also don't take into account the monstrous amount of defensive impact Hakeem had, the lack of talent he had relative to other teams and the competition he faced. If you believe in the inherent value of big men on defense, you won't question Hakeem having a sh!tload more defensive impact. Since you love stats so much, he led the league in DRtg five straight years and DWS for four straight years. Would have been five had he not suffered that vicious elbow that fractured his eyeball from Bill Cartwright. In his three year stretch ('93-95 in the playoffs, he shut down Shawn Kemp to the extent of 42% shooting along with setting a record (at that time) for most blocks in a seven game series. He shut down the paint and didn't let Seattle get anything going in the interior.

1994, he again roamed the paint in the Suns series which rendered Ced Ceballos useless and we occasionally had to use AC Green at center since he could space the floor with his jumper. KJ also had trouble finishing around the rim with Hakeem altering shots. He did have the nasty facial, though. Jazz series, he did the same since Felton Spencer wasn't a key cog on offense. He checked Karl Malone for stretches as well. Finals, he shut down Ewing and pushed him away from the basket and his comfort spots whiche explain his lower-than-average rebounding numbers. Patrick shot an abysmal thirty six percent from the field.

1995, his defense was getting worse but he could still hold his own like he did against Robinson in the conference finals and finished top five in DPOY voting iirc. David only averaged 23.8 ppg on 44.8% shooting. Hakeem did receive help from Jones and Chucky Brown that would come in to play tough, tenacious defense on Admiral.

He also created for his team just as much as MJ despite having lesser stats. He'd have several hockey assists since the Rockets spread the floor with their shooters. Those guys were chuckers and couldn't effectively create off the dribble at all times. No coincidence Rockets ORtg took a sudden rise (6th in the league in 1993) when they started utilizing all of Dream's talents and running the offense through him more. It also minimized Maxwell's, Smith's etc shot attempts and made Hakeem the go-to-guy down the stretch. He actually led the Rockets in ppg, rpg, apg, spg and bpg in the 1994 playoffs.

He also led two undermanned squads to championships all while outplaying / dominating three of the best at his position. Not many players can say that. I'll just copy and paste my previous post to emphasize the lack of talent he had relative to other teams and the competition he went up against. He didn't have the luxury someone like Jordan possessed since MJ's teams usually had an edge in talent compared to the rest of the league. I'm not sure why it's idiotic to think Hakeem in 1994 and 1995 had => playoff runs than MJ when several people such as Bill Walton, David Robinson, Riley were commentating on how dominant Hakeem was.

People just don't understand what he did in 1994 and 1995. You can can make a strong argument for the Rockets being outmatched in terms of talent in every round in those two years. Obviously, talent isn't everything but it's more of a testament to what Hakeem did during those two years. They faced the same Blazer team, in terms of their roster, as Jordan did in the '92 finals. They weren't as good due to Drexler's decline and their defense deteriorating. Difference was the Duckworth / Harvey Grant trade, Ainge departing and Rod Strickland being signed as a free agent to form a formidable backcourt along with Porter and Drexler. Porter/Drexler/Strickland is the most stacked backcourt I've seen to this day. Hakeem took a steaming dump on them to the extent of 34 ppg/11 rpg/4 apg.

Next up were the 1994 Suns . We were favored to win the series and had a pretty big edge in talent. Difference was Maxwell going to work in game 3 which changed the momentum in favor of the Rockets. Sir Charles also had a bad back and fatigue issues in game 7. Another series that showcased Majerle's overrated man defense, btw. His lack of lateral quickness and inability to effectively chase guys off of screens was on display.

1994 Jazz were expected to be championship contenders after the Hornacek trade since he added another dimension to their predictable offense. Hakeem shut down the paint in this series along with being charged for rape against Felton Spencer.

1994 Knicks, Rockets were favored to win the series for 1 reason only. Hakeem's domination of Ewing in the two season match ups holding Pat to 9/35 shooting while having a couple of monster games. I seem to recall a 29/20 effort along with a 37 pt domination. The Knicks were more of a gritty, physical and intense defensive team. The Rockets had blown a couple of leads in their run while the Knicks had shown will to win along with perseverance. I'd take Ewing's cast over Hakeem's for sure.

1995, Houston wasn't expected to win a single series yet they came through in the clutch every single time. Taking down Utah that won 61 games along with averaging 35 ppg/8 rpg/4 apg on 56% shooting along with the some ridiculously tough shots.

Beat us again next series although we had a great chance to put it away in game 5. Chuck stunk it up at the line and Wesley Person missed a 3 at the buzzer. Hakeem had 16 points in the 4th in game 7. Went on to dismantle MVP David Robinson in the conference finals and thoroughly outplayed another MVP candidate in O'Neal. Olajuwon always elevated his and his teammates play come postseason time. Hakeem's championships are extremely impressive under proper context.

[catch24]

There is no comprehension issue, kid. I was paying emphasis on how hard you rode Hakeem in those two posts. Saying he's better than Russell defensively, most skilled, GOAT center etc. Only one who lacks reading comprehension here is you. Definitely ride the short bus judging by your posts.

So you blatantly lied saying I called him 'the GOAT' center, when my post clearly says "top 3" (I don't even rank him that high anymore to begin with)? Another gem, by ISH's resident retard. Judging your posts, you're a mental midget with the IQ of a fencepost.



Don't moonwalk, kid.

No one is 'moon walking', "tiny troll". Me saying "Agreeeeed" right after I just got done saying he was a "top 3 Center" wouldn't necessarily make sense now, would it? Way to read between the lines, idiot. The post I made was well over a year ago, people can change their rankings and view of the game differently with that kind of time. Keep misreading and posting illogical garbage. It suits you well.


I've gone across all this garbage before. You're pretty much a fukking idiot. All the trash you're spewing is redundant and played out. You obviously haven't lived through the era judging by your posts so I have to take your opinion with a grain of salt. You're unable to look beyond statistical measurements and accolades which are subjective and heavily based on reputation..

You haven't gone through anything you illiterate moron. Once again, I'll REITERATE for you: Jordan having a better 3-4 stretch from '90-93 (vs Hakeem, Bird and whomever) isn't JUST because of 'better stats'. Jordan was the more versatile scorer (fantastic in the post, superb midrange game, could shoot from the outside, take it in strong all while shooting a high % from the FT line, nevermind from the field), the best perimeter defender not named Pippen, was an excellent playmaker and rebounder -- take a look at some of his series vs the Bucks, Lakers, Pistons, Suns, Sixers and Knicks. So once AGAIN, it isn't just "stats" and "media brainwash" (dumbest thing I've heard btw). It's called using your eyes. With or without a BETTER team is irrelevant. He was simply a more dominant player. Now if you want to add team success, then Jordan EASILY had the better stretch. Comrephend, or are you still remedial?


Your stats also don't take into account the monstrous amount of defensive impact Hakeem had, the lack of talent he had relative to other teams and the competition he faced. If you believe in the inherent value of big men on defense, you won't question Hakeem having a sh!tload more defensive impact. Since you love stats so much, he led the league in DRtg five straight years and DWS for four straight years. Would have been five had he not suffered that vicious elbow that fractured his eyeball from Bill Cartwright. In his three year stretch ('93-95 in the playoffs, he shut down Shawn Kemp to the extent of 42% shooting along with setting a record (at that time) for most blocks in a seven game series. He shut down the paint and didn't let Seattle get anything going in the interior.

Jordan also had a 'monstrous' impact defensively. He was regarded as the leagues top perimeter defender (with Pippen). Playing the passing lanes, shutting down the oppositions perimeter scorers, blocking shots, you name it, he did it. When you include Jordan's offense, who was easily the most efficient guard, and just as efficient as Hakeem when you take into account TS% -- takes into account scoring, 2pt%'s, 3pt%'s and FT%. If you want to use FG%, Hakeem, like Jordan both shot in the low 50% percentile, which is extremely efficient, but Jordan still scored an extra 3-4 points, thus, a better scorer.


He also led two undermanned squads to championships all while outplaying / dominating three of the best at his position. Not many players can say that. I'll just copy and paste my previous post to emphasize the lack of talent he had relative to other teams and the competition he went up against. He didn't have the luxury someone like Jordan possessed since MJ's teams usually had an edge in talent compared to the rest of the league. I'm not sure why it's idiotic to think Hakeem in 1994 and 1995 had => playoff runs than MJ when several people such as Bill Walton, David Robinson, Riley were commentating on how dominant Hakeem was.

Jordan led his teams in points, steals, FT's and while anchoring his teams on both ends. Jordan dominated both sides, while leading his teams to 3 straight championships. Scottie was Jordan's sidekick just like Kobe was Shaq's, and like Clyde to Hakeem in '95. Whether or not you feel Hakeem had an inferior team is irrelevant. We simply don't know how Hakeem would of played, or led those Bulls teams to a 3-peat (he was an inferior scorer and playmaker). Jordan had a better sidekick, but Hakeem had talented role players, who were terrific defensively -- just because he didn't have a 'proper second option' doesn't mean he had a terrible team. Learn the game, child.

[DatWasNashty]

So you blatantly lied saying I called him 'the GOAT' center, when my post clearly says "top 3" (I don't even rank him that high anymore to begin with)? Another gem, by ISH's resident retard. Judging your posts, you're a mental midget with the IQ of a fencepost.
Kid, you basically implied he's the GOAT center when you agreed with someone who made that claim. Are you demented or did you lose your mental faculties? Surely, it's a combination of both.

No one is 'moon walking', "tiny troll". Me saying "Agreeeeed" right after I just got done saying he was a "top 3 Center" wouldn't necessarily make sense now, would it? Way to read between the lines, idiot. The post I made was well over a year ago, people can change their rankings and view of the game differently with that kind of time. Keep misreading and posting illogical garbage. It suits you well.
Yeah, so you're admitting you're a sheep. Good to know.


You haven't gone through anything you illiterate moron.
You must be fukked in the head, kid. You said "wrong" when I mentioned that Hakeem could've made the finals in 1993. There's nothing wrong with saying that if you knew the circumstances of the Rockets' loss.

Once again, I'll REITERATE for you: Jordan having a better 3-4 stretch from '90-93 (vs Hakeem, Bird and whomever) isn't JUST because of 'better stats'. Jordan was the more versatile scorer (fantastic in the post, superb midrange game, could shoot from the outside, take it in strong all while shooting a high % from the FT line, nevermind from the field), the best perimeter defender not named Pippen, was an excellent playmaker and rebounder -- take a look at some of his series vs the Bucks, Lakers, Pistons, Suns, Sixers and Knicks. So once AGAIN, it isn't just "stats" and "media brainwash" (dumbest thing I've heard btw). It's called using your eyes. With or without a BETTER team is irrelevant. He was simply a more dominant player. Now if you want to add team success, then Jordan EASILY had the better stretch. Comrephend, or are you still remedial?
You obviously haven't read your posts, then.


Jordan also had a 'monstrous' impact defensively.
Is that why the Bulls posted a higher DRtg without him (1994) than they ever did in the prior years? Surely, you can't have a huge impact when the team gets better after you leave.

He was regarded as the leagues top perimeter defender (with Pippen). Playing the passing lanes, shutting down the oppositions perimeter scorers, blocking shots, you name it, he did it.
Never said he wasn't. He's incapable of having the impact Hakeem or guys like Mutombo and Robinson did on defense. He doesn't come close, actually.

When you include Jordan's offense, who was easily the most efficient guard, and just as efficient as Hakeem when you take into account TS% -- takes into account scoring, 2pt%'s, 3pt%'s and FT%. If you want to use FG%, Hakeem, like Jordan both shot in the low 50% percentile, which is extremely efficient, but Jordan still scored an extra 3-4 points, thus, a better scorer.
Never said Jordan wasn't a better scorer.


Jordan led his teams in points, steals, FT's and while anchoring his teams on both ends.
Yeah and Hakeem led them in pretty much every raw stat there is (1994 playoffs only). Jordan didn't anchor the defense. He wasn't even the best defender on his team so he definitely can't anchor a defense. The notion that any guard can singlehandedly anchor a defense is disingenuous. He was also bailed out in several close out games in the first three-peat years. Watch G6 of the 1992 Cavs series where Jordan get harassed by Ehlo for the first three quarters with Pippen coming up big with monstrous contributions on both ends. Jordan got it going in the fourth with the help of Ehlo resting. He was also trash in G6 of the 1993 Knicks series where Pippen closed it out in the 4th with Jordan shooting 0/7.

Jordan dominated both sides
He didn't dominate on defense. Certainly not to the extent big men did.
Whether or not you feel Hakeem had an inferior team is irrelevant.
It's pretty obvious he did.

We simply don't know how Hakeem would of played, or led those Bulls teams to a 3-peat (he was an inferior scorer and playmaker).
Hakeem would be excellent in the Bulls offense due to the spacing plus he would make them an even better defensive team. We're talking best defensive big of the early 1990s along with the best perimeter defender. They don't lose a go-to-guy either since Hakeem was clutch as fukk and didn't have a mental weakness or any glaring weakness in his game. The shooters would immensly benefit from the defense collapsing on Hakeem in the paint and Hakeem's versatility would also compliment Pippen's slashing.

Dream wasn't an inferior playmaker either as long as you mean creating for his team. Jordan was quite easily the better passer but he didn't get his team a greater amount of good looks than Hakeem did.

Jordan had a better sidekick, but Hakeem had talented role players , who were terrific defensively -- just because he didn't have a 'proper second option' doesn't mean he had a terrible team.
His team in 1994 is nothing to write home about. Second year Horry was almost traded that year for his unwillingness to launch three pointers, Cassell was a rookie, Maxwell was a ticking time bomb and they certainly weren't "excellent" defenders. Solid, yes. Excellent, no. They all looked better with Hakeem behind them. Smith and Cassell were abused by Kevin Johnson off the dribble in both 1994 and 1995. Penny Hardaway had no trouble dominating them in the post, off the dribble and also shot over them with ease. Maxwell had good, tenacious defense but he had a tendency to be over-aggressive at times. He lost his cool way too many times and often got T'd up and ejected (happened thrice in the 1994 playoffs iirc). Horry and Thorpe could play solid, effective defense.

His team, by finals standards, could definitely be considered terrible. The "deadly" shooters despite getting several good looks shot the following:

Vernon Maxwell - 37.6 FG%.
Sam Cassell - 39.4 FG%.
Mario Elie - 39.6 FG%.
Robert Horry - 43.4 FG%.

Jordan quite easily had the better team around him although he should get credit for the development of guys like Pippen and Grant.

Learn the game, child.
Will do so as soon as you graduate middle school.

[catch24]

Kid, you basically implied he's the GOAT center

I didn't "basically imply" anything, retard. Once again, learn how to read. "He's easily a top 3 center". Where in that sentence is that saying he's "GOAT"?


Yeah, so you're admitting you're a sheep. Good to know.

I'm not admitting anything except your intellect is rivaled only by garden tools. It's called reality. Hakeem simply isn't the player Jordan is or was during their absolute peaks.


You must be fukked in the head, kid. You said "wrong" when I mentioned that Hakeem could've made the finals in 1993.

Mentally constipated posting verbal diarrhea again I see. I said "wrong", because you stated I "only used stats", which, again, is false. Once again, child, read: Jordan having a better 3-4 stretch from '90-93 (vs Hakeem, Bird and whomever) isn't JUST because of 'better stats'. Jordan was the more versatile scorer (fantastic in the post, superb midrange game, could shoot from the outside, take it in strong all while shooting a high % from the FT line, nevermind from the field), the best perimeter defender not named Pippen, was an excellent playmaker and rebounder -- take a look at some of his series vs the Bucks, Lakers, Pistons, Suns, Sixers and Knicks. So once AGAIN, it isn't just "stats" and "media brainwash" (dumbest thing I've heard btw). It's called using your eyes. With or without a BETTER team is irrelevant. He was simply a more dominant player. Now if you want to add team success, then Jordan EASILY had the better stretch.

Learn how to read and comprehend before quoting me again, kiddo.


You obviously haven't read your posts, then.

I've read mine. Yours are still dumber.


Is that why the Bulls posted a higher DRtg without him (1994) than they ever did in the prior years?

If the Bulls were better defensively then why were they outscored by the same Knicks team Jordan beat just last season, 3 years consecutively? That's right retard, they actually weren't better defensively. They had to rely more on their defense because they were missing Jordan's offense. Critical thinking isn't your best suit, that's for sure.


Never said Jordan wasn't a better scorer.

I know you didn't. I added that in to debunk your claims.


Yeah and Hakeem led them in pretty much every raw stat there is (1994 playoffs only). Jordan didn't anchor the defense.

Yes, he did anchor that defense, as he did the offense. Phil knows it, Pippen knows and so do the entire championship Bulls teams. Hell throw in his peers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaR0yAKx1vY#t=1m55s -- you can watch the entire video and they'll tell you he was dominate defensively. So once again, this brings us to offense. Offense is what separated the two. I hope you know how to listen, otherwise we're done here.


He didn't dominate on defense. Certainly not to the extent big men did.
It's pretty obvious he did.

Yes, he did dominate on the defensive end. Anyone saying otherwise is an idiot or simply didn't watch him during his prime. Hakeem was the better defender, though the margin wasn't big like Jordan vs Hakeem on offense, which is why he was the more dominant player.


Hakeem would be excellent in the Bulls offense due to the spacing plus he would make them an even better defensive team.

Once again, this is your opinion. We simply don't know what would of happened had he played with the Bulls. Jordan was such an integral part his teams offense, from scoring, to passing, likewise vocally, leading his teams. Would Hakeem fill this void? Going by the evidence, no, but again, we simply don't know, thus it's irrelevant.


Dream wasn't an inferior playmaker either

Yes, actually he was. Jordan had more assists, was the better passer and did a much better job at sucking up the defense with his penetration.


His team in 1994 is nothing to write home about. Second year Horry was almost traded that year for his unwillingness to launch three pointers, Cassell was a rookie, Maxwell was a ticking time bomb and they certainly weren't "excellent" defenders. Solid, yes. Excellent, no.

The Rockets defensive rating was 2nd in the league in '94. Thorpe, Maxwell, Horry and Ellie were great individual defenders. Maxwell's D was tenacious, and is remembered for having kept Michael Jordan significantly below his scoring averages. VM acquired the reputation of being a feisty player.


His team, by finals standards, could definitely be considered terrible. The "deadly" shooters despite getting several good looks shot the following:

Vernon Maxwell - 37.6 FG%.
Sam Cassell - 39.4 FG%.
Mario Elie - 39.6 FG%.
Robert Horry - 43.4 FG%.

These are Finals numbers. We can't ignore defense. Players don't win single handedly. Come back to reality.


Jordan quite easily had the better team around him although he should get credit for the development of guys like Pippen and Grant.

Yes, but this is irrelevant when you consider his players needed him more than the other way around, just like Hakeem. Moot point. And in regards to your earlier posts about 'competition'. Hah! This is laughable and should be ignored but I'll thrash this myth anyway.

Here are top 3 defenses he faced during that 3-4 year stretch:

1990 Pistons (second ranked defense)
32 ppg 7 rebounds 6.3 assists on 47% shooting
(High scoring game: 47pts & a 42pt game)

1992 Trailblazers (2nd ranked defense)
36 ppg, 5 rebounds and 6.5 assists on 53% shooting

1992 Knicks (2nd ranked defense)
31 ppg 5.7 rebounds 4.3 assists on 48% shooting

I won't even include the Lakers, Cavs, '93 Knicks, '91 Pistons and other various teams who were around top 5 at the time.

Jordan's 50 point games vs top 10 ranked defenses:

54 vs NY in '93 (in the postseason) - #1 ranked defensively
69 vs CLE in '90 - #9 ranked defensively

If I included his '89 season he'd have about 4-5 more (all high %'s) vs Cleveland (2), Phoenix, and Milwaukee (2).

The facts are that MJ holds the highest PPG avg (includes both the playoffs and regular season). Jordan won six final mvps, five league mvps, and ten scoring titles (a combination of maintained supremacy that will more than likley never be seen again). Some fans of other players from that era know that their favorite player(s) weren't able to achieve what Mike did so instead, they veer from the evidence/facts and make excuses as to why their favorite(s) fail in comparison.


Will do so as soon as you graduate middle school.

You're 10 years late. You can start learning the game now.

[catch24]

I'll add the other teams, what the hell? (Jordan dismantled these teams too)
1990 Detroit Pistons ranked #2
1991 Detroit Pistons ranked #4
1991 Lakers #5
1992 New York Knicks ranked #2
1993 Suns #9
1993 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked #6th
1993 New York Knicks ranked #1

*edit*
Mike faced 17 top 5 defenses during the playoffs
24 top 10 defenses in the playoffs
on average the 8 ranked Defenses in the playoffs.

[wheyhigh]

Jordan/Akeem gap size

http://sportsnerds.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/fcec3620-7194-4fd6-9512-2ed208e968d0.jpg





Lebron/Dwight gap size

http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/media/images/medium2/20091012183817938.jpg
:oldlol:

[Fatal9]

Game 7 Rockets Sonics, the bad calls: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax9n6JJgq-E

You can never fully understand what a defensive MONSTER he was in that series till you watch him play. I think he set the record for most blocks in a series and might still have it (?). Jordan has never impacted games defensively even in his dreams like Hakeem did that series, and I say that as someone who thinks MJ is top 2 perimeter defender ever.

And I'm not seeing how statistically he's all that over Hakeem (save me the advanced stats plz because I couldn't give a flying phuck)...

Hakeem averaged in his three year run:

26/14/4/4/2 on 53% and 26/14/5/5/2 on 52% in playoffs
27/12/4/4/2 on 52% and 29/11/4/4/2 on 52% (championship)
28/11/4/3/2 on 52% and 33/10/5/3/1 on 53% (championship while upsetting the 4 best teams in the league)

+ way more impact on defense, changes at least 10+ shots in the lane per game while shutting down the opposing center

Jordan's run:

32/6/6/3/1 on 54% and 31/6/8/2/1 on 52% (championship)
30/6/6/2/1 on 52% and 35/6/6/2/1 on 50% (championship)
33/7/6/3/1 on 50% and 35/7/6/2/1 on 48% (championship)

Hakeem's competition team wise > Jordan's
Hakeem's supporting casts < Jordan's (meaning Hakeem had to be GREAT in every series to advance. Couldn't be shooting 40% for the series and expect his team to beat the Knicks)
Hakeem's competition at the center position >>> Jordan's competition at the SG

The separation in their careers is that Jordan was able to play at that level for more than 3 years, while Hakeem was a level below this standard for rest of his career. I think bad teams and shit coaching had a lot to do with it (not running the offense more through Hakeem), because he already had shown by his second season that he could lead teams to a ring if given the proper talent.

[catch24]

Hakeem's competition team wise > Jordan's

Even if that were true, Jordan faced better team defenses, on average. So I disagree with the competition stuff.


Hakeem's supporting casts < Jordan's (meaning Hakeem had to be GREAT in every series to advance.
Couldn't be shooting 40% for the series and expect his team to beat the Knicks)

Yeah, true. His teams weren't all that bad though. One player doesn't win championships, as you know you need a pretty decent supporting cast (his team made up for their scoring by playing terrific, defensively). As I posted above, Maxwell was a fantastic defender... he's one of the only dude's that held MJ significantly under his scoring averages (both points and shoot %'s).


Hakeem's competition at the center position >>> Jordan's competition at the SG

Agreed. Again, though, Jordan faced tougher defenses on average... To me that sort of balances things.

Oh, and I'd take Jordan's numbers because if his team was ever in a scoring drought, dude could take over a game all by himself. That's not to say Hakeem couldn't, I just don't think it was to the degree MJ did it in.

[DatWasNashty]

I didn't "basically imply" anything, retard. Once again, learn how to read. "He's easily a top 3 center". Where in that sentence is that saying he's "GOAT"?

Yeah, you did, fukkstick. You agreed with the person who said Hakeem is the GOAT center hence you THINK that he's the GOAT C. Your head seems to be stuck up your ass.



I'm not admitting anything except your intellect is rivaled only by garden tools. It's called reality. Hakeem simply isn't the player Jordan is or was during their absolute peaks.
Reality is you haven't seen Hakeem at his peak because he was at his peak at the same time your mom was considering abortion.




Mental constipated posting verbal diarrhea again I see. I said "wrong", because you stated I "only used stats", which, again, is false. Once again, child, read: Jordan having a better 3-4 stretch from '90-93 (vs Hakeem, Bird and whomever) isn't JUST because of 'better stats'. Jordan was the more versatile scorer (fantastic in the post, superb midrange game, could shoot from the outside, take it in strong all while shooting a high % from the FT line, nevermind from the field), the best perimeter defender not named Pippen, was an excellent playmaker and rebounder -- take a look at some of his series vs the Bucks, Lakers, Pistons, Suns, Sixers and Knicks. So once AGAIN, it isn't just "stats" and "media brainwash" (dumbest thing I've heard btw). It's called using your eyes. With or without a BETTER team is irrelevant. He was simply a more dominant player. Now if you want to add team success, then Jordan EASILY had the better stretch.
LOL @ this kid. Definitely a fukktard. The following quote is what you said "wrong," to:


He had a better team around him so I'd expect him to have more finals appearances. And Hakeem could've possibly had three straight finals appearances as well since the Rockets were robbed late in game 7 in 1993. There were three bad calls (one in the 4th, the other two in overtime) that swung the momentum in Seattle's favor. Seattle did have homecourt and all. Rockets win that series and it's a toss up if they beat us or not. They got the better of us in the next two years but we were a better team in 1993 with Chuck motivated and our team at full health.
Do I mention stats in that post? No. All I mentioned was he could've possibly made the finals that year.

Learn how to read and comprehend before quoting me again, kiddo.
Irony is strong in this one.



I've read mine. Yours are still dumber.
Your mother disagrees.

If the Bulls were better defensively then why were they outscored by the same Knicks team Jordan beat just last season, 3 years consecutively? That's right retard, they actually weren't better defensively. They had rely more on their defense because they were missing Jordan's offense.
Sample of 82 games > one series.

Critical thinking isn't your best suit, that's for sure.
Your mother doesn't think so.

Yes, he did anchor that defense, as he did the offense. Phil knows it, Pippen knows and so do the entire championship Bulls teams. Hell throw in his peers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaR0yAKx1vY#t=1m55s -- you can watch the entire video and they'll tell you he was dominate defensively. So once again, this brings us to offense. Offense is what separated the two. I hope you know how to listen, otherwise we're done here.
Yeah, this is my certainly my last post to you. Definitely putting a dipsh!t like you on my ignore list. Anyone who thinks Jordan could "anchor" a defense isn't the brightest individual on the planet.

Yes, he did dominate on the defensive end.
No, he didn't.

Anyone saying otherwise is an idiot or simply didn't watch him during his prime. Hakeem was the better defender, though the margin wasn't big like Jordan's vs Hakeem on offense. This is why Jordan was more dominant.
More like anyone who thinks he dominated on defense is an idiot.


Yes, actually he was. Jordan had more assists, was the better passer and did a much better job at sucking up the defense with his penetration.
More assists doesn't necessarily equate to being a better playmaker. Hakeem forced defenses to collapse same way Jordan "sucked up defenses with his penetration."

[QUOTE]The Rockets defensive rating was 2nd in the league in '94.
That's a testament to Hakeem's defense.

Thorpe, Maxwell, Horry and Ellie were great individual defenders.
None were "great" individual defenders. Thorpe was a good man defender giving effort on defense at all times but his help defense was subpar. Not a shot blocking threat and his post defense wasn't spectacular either. Karl Malone and Charles Barkley used to have great games against him. Moreso than their averages. Elie's lateral movement wasn't the greatest. Horry was very good with no major weakness and Maxwell's weakness was his mentality. All were good but not great, hence why they never made an all-defensive team.


Maxwell's D was tenacious, and is remembered for having kept Michael Jordan significantly below his scoring averages. VM acquired the reputation of being a feisty player.
Maxwell didn't hold Jordan to below his averages. Jordan had one terrible game against him and that had more to do with Hakeem's defense in the paint than Maxwell. Jordan had his shot swatted several times and couldn't get anything going around the rim. Jordan routinely abused Maxwell off the dribble and in the post.




These are Finals numbers. We can't ignore defense. Players don't win single handedly. Come back to reality.
They're playoff numbers, not finals. Finals would be even worse. I didn't imply Hakeem won single handedly. He came pretty close, though. Moreso than any other player I've seen.




Yes, but this is irrelevant when you consider his players needed him more than the other way around, just like Hakeem. Moot point. And in regards to your earlier posts about 'competition'. Hah! This is laughable and should be ignored but I'll thrash this myth anyway.

Here are top 3 defenses he faced during that 3-4 year stretch:

1990 Pistons (second ranked defense)
32 ppg 7 rebounds 6.3 assists on 47% shooting
(High scoring game: 47pts & a 42pt game)

1992 Trailblazers (2nd ranked defense)
36 ppg, 5 rebounds and 6.5 assists on 53% shooting

1992 Knicks (2nd ranked defense)
31 ppg 5.7 rebounds 4.3 assists on 48% shooting

I won't even include the Lakers, Cavs, '93 Knicks, '91 Pistons and other various teams who were around top 5 at the time.

Jordan's 50 point games vs top 10 ranked defenses:

54 vs NY in '93 (in the postseason) - #1 ranked defensively
69 vs CLE in '90 - #9 ranked defensively

If I included his '89 season he'd have about 4-5 more (all high %'s) vs Cleveland (2), Phoenix, and Milwaukee (2).
I was talking competition as in the quality of teams he faced during his playoff runs. Whatever you just posted could've easily been looked up via basketballreference.


The facts are that MJ holds the highest PPG avg (includes both the playoffs and regular season). Jordan won six final mvps, five league mvps, and ten scoring titles (a combination of maintained supremacy that will more than likley, never be seen again).
We're talking '91-93 Jordan vs '93-95 Hakeem. Not sure how he won five MVPs during that stretch, six finals MVPs or ten scoring titles during that stretch.

Some fans of other players from this that era know that their favorite player weren't able to achieve what Mike did so instead, they veer from the evidence/facts and make excuses as to why their favorite(s) fail in comparison.
I'm well aware Kevin Johnson didn't achieve what Jordan did.


You can start learning the game now.
Will do so if your IQ ever goes above forty.

[DatWasNashty]

Game 7 Rockets Sonics, the bad calls: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax9n6JJgq-E

You can never fully understand what a defensive MONSTER he was in that series till you watch him play. I think he set the record for most blocks in a series and might still have it (?). Jordan has never impacted games defensively even in his dreams like Hakeem did that series, and I say that as someone who thinks MJ is top 2 perimeter defender ever.

And I'm not seeing how statistically he's all that over Hakeem (save me the advanced stats plz because I couldn't give a flying phuck)...

Hakeem averaged in his three year run:

26/14/4/4/2 on 53% and 26/14/5/5/2 on 52% in playoffs
27/12/4/4/2 on 52% and 29/11/4/4/2 on 52% (championship)
28/11/4/3/2 on 52% and 33/10/5/3/1 on 53% (championship while upsetting the 4 best teams in the league)

+ way more impact on defense, changes at least 10+ shots in the lane per game while shutting down the opposing center

Jordan's run:

32/6/6/3/1 on 54% and 31/6/8/2/1 on 52% (championship)
30/6/6/2/1 on 52% and 35/6/6/2/1 on 50% (championship)
33/7/6/3/1 on 50% and 35/7/6/2/1 on 48% (championship)

Hakeem's competition team wise > Jordan's
Hakeem's supporting casts < Jordan's (meaning Hakeem had to be GREAT in every series to advance. Couldn't be shooting 40% for the series and expect his team to beat the Knicks)
Hakeem's competition at the center position >>> Jordan's competition at the SG

The separation in their careers is that Jordan was able to play at that level for more than 3 years, while Hakeem was a level below this standard for rest of his career. I think bad teams and shit coaching had a lot to do with it (not running the offense more through Hakeem), because he already had shown by his second season that he could lead teams to a ring if given the proper talent.
How dare you bring sense into this thread ...

[catch24]

Yeah, you did, fukkstick. You agreed with the person who said Hakeem is the GOAT center hence you THINK that he's the GOAT C. Your head seems to be stuck up your ass.

Wrong, I didn't. Saying "agreeeeed", as I've told you before, was clearly exaggeration on my part. I called him a top 3 center the previous post. What I'd like to know is why you continue to rehash posts from a year ago? I've told you I don't even rank Hakeem with the first tier of Centers anymore. Now what? Any irrelevant point you'd like to hang onto now? Nah, you'll probably just stay on my nuts digging through year old posts. Kind of creepy if you ask me. :oldlol:


Reality is you haven't seen Hakeem at his peak because he was at his peak at the same time your mom was considering abortion.

Wrong. I have, he just isn't the player Jordan was.

That's funny and all, but why joke about abortion when you're in fact an aborted fetus?


LOL @ this kid. Definitely a fukktard. The following quote is what you said "wrong," to:

Do I mention stats in that post? No. All I mentioned was he could've possibly made the finals that year.[/quote]

Once again, learn how to read, 'wee one'. I said "wrong" because you stated my arguments are solely based on statistics, which is false. I quoted a different post of yours, which was obviously intended for the stats bs. Keep holding onto irrelevant crap.


Sample of 82 games > one series.

Wrong, one series, in the playoffs, where everything is on the line > an 82 game regular season. Nice logic, dolt. And even so, my point still holds stands. The Bulls HAD to play MORE defense because they missed Jordan, offensively.


Yeah, this is my certainly my last post to you. Definitely putting a dipsh!t like you on my ignore list. Anyone who thinks Jordan could "anchor" a defense isn't the brightest individual on the planet.

Awww, the prissy cvnt masquerading behind a sock account is gonna cry. Poor bastard, if it's any consolation, I apologize for shredding every post of yours. Apparently Magic, Ainge, Kenny Smith and Barkley can't talk about Jordan being 'dominate defensively', seeing as how they never played against him. :facepalm

Jordan was the anchor both sides on those Bulls teams, plain and simple.


No, he didn't.

Yes he did, tool. If winning a DPOY wasn't enough, he was regarded, alongside Pippen, as the best perimeter defender in the league.

[quote]More assists doesn't necessarily equate to being a better playmaker

Of course it doesn't. Jordan was the better playmaker because he was a BETTER passer, while drawing more double and triple teams. The 'more assists' just helps my argument, that's all. Why cant you grasp this, child?


None were "great" individual defenders. Thorpe was a good man defender giving effort on defense at all times but his help defense was subpar.

Which makes him an all around good defender. Learn how to comprehend your own posts, dumbass.


Maxwell didn't hold Jordan to below his averages.

Wrong yet again. Look at the box scores available on basketball reference.


They're playoff numbers, not finals. Finals would be even worse. I didn't imply Hakeem won single handedly. He came pretty close, though. Moreso than any other player I've seen.

Well don't post this, then "His team, by finals standards, could definitely be considered terrible." It's all extraneous, anyway. Only a moronic troll would tell you a single player could get to the Finals by himself. Despite what you think about them offensively, they made up for it defensively, having the 2nd best defensive rating.


I was talking competition as in the quality of teams he faced during his playoff runs. Whatever you just posted could've easily been looked up via basketballreference.

You're still wrong. Those numbers are mostly from the playoffs, and I didn't even include #5-10 defenses. Jordan's Bulls, on average, faced tougher competition than Hakeem's Rockets. The facts do not lie, child. lol, of course I got most of these numbers from a site. You think I remember them off the top of my head? You're slow as f*ck.



We're talking '91-93 Jordan vs '93-95 Hakeem. Not sure how he won five MVPs during that stretch, six finals MVPs or ten scoring titles during that stretch.

Yeah, no shit. I posted that for a reason. "These posters making excuses" would be you, troll.



Will do so if your IQ ever goes above forty.

Weak. A breeder had 17 sheep. All but 9 died. How many live sheep were left? The answer would be your IQ.