Defensive Player of The Year 1955-1982

[G.O.A.T]

1982
Candidates: Bobby Jones, Caldwell Jones, Dennis Johnson, Michael Cooper
Winner: Michael Cooper
Explanation: He was the key defensive player on the leagues best team. He guarded Bird and Erving, the best players on his team’s two greatest rivals. He finished higher in the MVP voting than any other candidate on this list and had the worst stats of anyone.

1981
Candidates: Dennis Johnson, Bobby Jones, Michael Ray Richardson, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Winner: Dennis Johnson
Explanation: In his first season in Phoenix, the Suns already good defensive became the leagues best while finishing with the best record in the west. Johnson was selected to the All-NBA 1st Team and made his third straight all-defensive first team.

http://www.nba.com/suns/images/allcentury/JohnsonD.jpg

1980
Candidates: Dennis Johnson, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Bobby Jones, Dan Roundfield
Winner: Bobby Jones
Explanation: A real toss up between Kareem, Jones and Johnson; each the best at their respective position. The fact that Kareem just got it the year prior and that he had slipped noticeably defensively (though still very good) hurts him. Dennis Johnson is still very young and even coming off the NBA title, I still think this one is more likely to go to Bobby Jones, so I pick him.

1979
Candidates: Bobby Jones, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Dennis Johnson, Moses Malone
Winner: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Explanation: Kareem was still rebounding at a high level (12.8/gm) in 1979 and he led the league four blocks per game. The Lakers played without a true power forward and were still among the top half defensively. Count Moses out because Houston sucked defensively despite his 17+ rpg. Dennis Johnson was just getting established following the 1978 Finals. Bobby Jones is close, making an impact in his first season in Philadelphia, but I’m going with Kareem here.


http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/multimedia/photo_gallery/0806/nba.all.time.playoff.defenders/images/bobby-jones.jpg

1978
Candidates: Bobby Jones, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Dennis Johnson, Moses Malone
Winner: Bobby Jones
Explanation: Jones averages 2 blocks and 2 steals per game playing an NBA career high 33 minutes per game, averages a career best 9 rebounds per game and leads the league in FG% to boot. He could have got it the year before, but Walton’s double up was too significant. His consistency wins out over Walton who would break down late in his MVP season. (Note: the more I look at this year the more I want co-DMVPS, Walton was so good)

1977
Candidates: Bobby Jones, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Bill Walton, Don Buse
Winner: Bill Walton
Explanation: They gave Kareem the MVP which almost certainly means Walton gets the defensive player of the year. Walton leads the league in rebounding and blocked shots and Portland eventually wins the NBA title. Bobby Jones averages over 2 blocks and 2 steals per game and somehow probably finishes third this season in the voting.


http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/81801604.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF8789215ABF3343C02EA548A43A160D3A1B7F50 DB420DDC0B0BEB293FDE7D7939209071

1976
Candidates: Dave Cowens, John Havlicek, Norm Van Lier, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Winner: Dave Cowens
Explanation:Had originally gone with Kareem here because of the shot blocking prowess and the fact that he hadn't yet developed his slacker reputation in transition. However now I'm going with Cowens. Cowens was not a great on ball defender, but his team defense was way ahead of the times. His rotations are fantastic and he is the ultimate give up the body superstar. The Celtics won with defense and balanced scoring and Cowens was the anchor on both ends.

1975
Candidates: Walt Frazier, Jerry Sloan, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, John Havlicek
Winner: Jerry Sloan
Explanation: The Bulls were at the peak and end of their run and Sloan was the foremost defensive star on a great defensive team. He was second on the team averaging seven rebounds per game as a guard and averaged 2.2 steals. Jabbar and Frazier’s teams were not at the same level and their impact was not significantly greater, if greater at all.


http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/Lew%20Alcindor/jabbarbucks.jpg

1974
Candidates: Dave DeBusschere, Norm Van Lier, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, John Havlicek
Winner: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Explanation: The centerpiece to one of the leagues best defensive teams, Kareem averaged 3.5 blocks and the Bucks advanced to the NBA Finals. The other players on the list had a lot of help with great defensive players around them, Jabbar was the clear leader with a young Dandridge offering some support and an aging Oscar relying on guile.

1973
Candidates: Wilt Chamberlain, Nate Thurmond, Walt Frazier, Dave DeBusschere, John Havlicek
Winner: Nate Thurmond
Explanation: As great as Wilt was defensively, even in his final year, Thurmond was a monster and what he did in the playoffs solidifies this as one of his finest seasons.

1972
Candidates: Wilt Chamberlain, Dave DeBusschere, John Havlicek, Nate Thurmond
Winner: Wilt Chamberlain
Explanation: Wilt plays like Russell for a full season the Lakers break numerous records on their way to the title. And this is when he’s past his prime. A truly great performance from Wilt that season.


http://sportsmed.starwave.com/i/magazine/new/dave_debusschere_a.jpg

1971
Candidates: Walt Frazier, Dave DeBusschere, Jerry West, Nate Thurmond, Wilt Chamberlain
Winner: Dave DeBusschere
Explanation: He and Frazier are interchangeable in these two seasons. They were the top one-two punch in the league on the top defensive team once again.


http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/81345788.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF8789215ABF3343C02EA548182B72BE48BAA0FE A2EB1B50AF5CAE78AFA2E0B667182AC5

1970
Candidates: Walt Frazier, Willis Reed, Dave DeBusschere, Jerry West, Nate Thurmond
Winner: Walt Frazier
Explanation: Had to be a Knick, they were clearly the best defensive team post Boston and they had a great defensive line-up. DeBusschere and Frazier were the stars covering the opponents best forward and guard respectively. Frazier, the more established player probably gets the nod over New York newcomer DeBusschere.

1969
Candidates: Bill Russell, Walt Frazier, Nate Thurmond
Winner: Bill Russell
Explanation: Russell actually elevated his defensive play in 1969 from the previous season, focusing more energy on that than he had in a number of years. Boston repeats as Champion as Russell raises his rebound average and overcomes Willis Reed and Wilt en route to the title. Thurmond is a close second and probably wins it if the Warriors are a little better.

[G.O.A.T]

1968
Candidates: Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, Jerry West
Winner: Wilt Chamberlain
Explanation: Russell’s worst season and one of Wilt’s finest until game five of the Eastern Finals. Still this is Wilt’s award again as he just played at the highest level of anyone in the league on both ends.

http://www.nba.com/media/encyclopedia/chamberlain67_350.jpg

1967
Candidates: Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, Nate Thurmond
Winner: Wilt Chamberlain
Explanation: Wilt finally wins the award during the Sixers dream season. Wilt posted 24 rebounds per game and a career low for field goal attempts expending more energy than ever on the defensive end.

1966
Candidates: Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell
Winner: Bill Russell
Explanation: Russell hangs on here over Wilt who is still not quite getting the defensive credit he deserves. Russell’s Celtics are again the leagues top defensive team and the World Champions.

1965
Candidates: Bill Russell, KC Jones, Tom Sanders
Winner: Bill Russell
Explanation: Really the only candidate is Russell as the Celtics were the leagues premier defensive team. Wilt was traded midseason and the Warriors bombed. The Hawks had a strong defensive frontline with Pettit, Zelmo Beaty and Bill Bridges all averaging double figure rebounds but no stand out. Jerry West, along with KC Jones were the premier defensive guards.

http://www.blackpast.org/files/blackpast_images/Bill_Russell__From_ESPN_Website_.jpg

1964
Candidates: Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, KC Jones, Tom Sanders
Winner: Bill Russell
Explanation: The Celtics continue their monopoly of the leagues best defensive players and continue to have the leagues top rated defense. The Warriors played slow down ball, mimicking the Celtics but without quite as much success. Wilt’s finest defensive season to date, but not enough to unseat Russell.

1963
Candidates: Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, KC Jones
Winner: Bill Russell
Explanation: KC Jones and Tom Sanders develop their reputations as defensive game changers further, but Wilt and Russell are still way out ahead. Wilt’s team struggles and Russell easily takes another award.

1962
Candidates: Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell
Winner: Bill Russell
Explanation: There are only two guys that are altering the game so greatly. Wilt and Russell and Russell is wholly focused on defense and winning.

http://www.achievement.org/achievers/rus0/photos/rus0-012a.gif

1961
Candidates: Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, Bob Pettit
Winner: Bill Russell
Explanation: The anchors of the top three defenses in the game. Pettit isn’t blocking shots or rebounding like the other two so count him out. Russell takes it by a slightly larger margin than the year before.

1960
Candidates: Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, Bob Pettit
Winner: Bill Russell
Explanation: Rookie Wilt gets a number of votes as people want to see someone else win it and in the media they don’t hate Wilt yet. Russell wins it again though as the Celtics go back-to-back.

1959
Candidates: Bill Russell, Bob Pettit, Tom Gola
Winner: Bill Russell
Explanation: Pettit’s peak as a defender begins and Tom Gola has his best season as a pro proving the one player capable of contending with Elgin Baylor from the corners. Still Russell is the dynamic force to be reckoned with and gets the third straight award.

1958
Candidates: Bill Russell, Maurice Stokes, Slater Martin
Winner: Bill Russell
Explanation: By his second season the league had fully come to appreciate and/or fear what Russell brought to the table even if they didn’t understand it. Now teams were trying to figure out what to do next.

1957
Candidates: Bill Russell, Maurice Stokes, Slater Martin
Winner: Bill Russell
Explanation: Russell enters the league and the game is changed for ever. Defensive reaches a whole new level with Russell blocking shots and starting fast breaks. Stokes and Hwaks guard Slater Martin, the only play who troubled Cousy according to many accounts are the best forward and guard defensively during this season.

http://www.findagrave.com/photos250/photos/2006/95/7792486_114437126022.jpg

1956
Candidates: Maurice Stokes, Dolph Schayes, Bob Pettit
Winner: Maurice Stokes
Explanation: The Royals were a bead team because they couldn’t shoot, but Stokes and player coach Bobby Wanzer formed a great defensive combo that made life tough on opponents. Stokes pure athleticism shocked the league, some estimate he averaged 5 blocks and 5 steals in his three seasons making athletic plays left and right that while common today, were unheard of then.

1955
Candidates: Earl Lloyd, Paul Seymour, Bob Pettit, Larry Foust, Red Rocha
Winner: Earl Lloyd
Explanation: I've changed this one from Dolph Schayes for two reasons, I read a book about the '55 Nationals and I got to see some game footage from the '55 Finals. (Also credit to Will C, for correctly calling this one out) My new choice is his Royals teammate Earl Lloyd who was charged with guarding George Yardley or Mel Hutchins (the Pistons best scores) and has a reputation as a defensive forward and enforcer. The Nationals 4-man front court rotation was, according to Red Kerr, built around he and Schayes on offense and Lloyd and Rocha on defense.

[Manute for Ever!]

Again, great thread and it leads to the question; Do you think it is coincidence or conspriracy that the league started tallying blocks the exact season after Chamberlain retired?

[G.O.A.T]

I've never thought it was a conspiracy. Are there those who do?

[jlauber]

Great list G.O.A.T

The more I study Wilt's career, the more I am inclined to rank his '72 season among not just his best, but among the best ever. IMHO, he played like a more efficient and prime Russell. And he, like Russell was throughout his career, was exceptionally clutch in the post-season.

The rest of your list speaks for itself. The greatest defensive player ever...Russell. And as much as I hate to use this phrase...it does apply here..."and it isn't close."

[L.Kizzle]

Again, great thread and it leads to the question; Do you think it is coincidence or conspriracy that the league started tallying blocks the exact season after Chamberlain retired?
They didn't wanna show Wilt's dominance?

[jlip]

Great thread! Awesome job. I may have to borrow this for another forum.

I would love to see a similar thread about the Finals MVP from '55-'68.

[jlauber]

Great thread! Awesome job. I may have to borrow this for another forum.

I would love to see a similar thread about the Finals MVP from '55-'68.

Schayes in '55, Arizin in '56, Pettit in '58, Wilt in '67, perhaps Havlicek in '69 (West won it), and probably Russell every other year.

[jlip]

Schayes in '55, Arizin in '56, Pettit in '58, Wilt in '67, perhaps Havlicek in '69 (West won it), and probably Russell every other year.

Do you think that it was a possibility of Hondo squeaking out the '68 Finals MVP also?

[Gifted Mind]

Great thread! Awesome job. I may have to borrow this for another forum.

I would love to see a similar thread about the Finals MVP from '55-'68.


Here's my analysis on this

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=157369

[Gifted Mind]

Excellent thread G.O.A.T.
:applause:


I think you have done a great job. There might be a few years I disagree with, like Russell in 57, not because of his ability, but injuries, but overall it's a very strong and accurate representation of what would have happen in the NBA if the DPOY award existed. Really would change the perception of some players like Russell and Chamberlain as well on All-Time rankings when people actually realize how great their work has been in the NBA.


In summary, great analysis and accurate conclusions. I hope you will be putting this and your All-Defensive team analysis in your book as well.

[jlip]

Here's my analysis on this

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=157369

Just read it. Great work, man. I find it amazing how despite his alleged offensive limitations, when it mattered most, Russell would often come up with 20-30 point games often even leading his team in scoring.

[ThaRegul8r]

Excellent thread G.O.A.T.
:applause:


I think you have done a great job. There might be a few years I disagree with, like Russell in 57, not because of his ability, but injuries

Russell wasn't injured in '57. He was busy leading the U.S. Olympic men's basketball team to the gold medal by the largest margin of victory in Olympic history.

[Gifted Mind]

Russell wasn't injured in '57. He was busy leading the U.S. Olympic men's basketball team to the gold medal by the largest margin of victory in Olympic history.

I'm sorry I said injured. But looking through all the DPOYs, the lowest games a player played while winning DPOY was 68. Bill Russell played just 48. While I agree he was the best defensive player that season, I don't agree that he would actually be voted the winner of the award due to the number of games he played.

[jlauber]

Just read it. Great work, man. I find it amazing how despite his alleged offensive limitations, when it mattered most, Russell would often come up with 20-30 point games often even leading his team in scoring.

He had 30-40 and 30-38 playoff games, as well. In fact, Regul8r posted a slew of his great playoff games. He also had a sensational 18 ppg, 29 rpg, .702 FG% (yes, .702) series in the '65 Finals. And in the '66 Finals, he LED Boston in scoring at 23.6 ppg.

Regul8r also posted several links which indicate that Russell's Celtics had multiple teams that were among the best ever in terms of defensive domination. I was very fascinated by one of those team's holding the Royals, who had had averaged 114 ppg, to 93 ppg in a playoff series. His data also indicated that those great Celtic teams were also among the greatest ever in points per 100 possessions.

As more-and-more of these defensive statistical analysis' are released perhaps the Jordan Generation will have a better appreciation of just how great Russell's impact was.

[magnax1]

I never really knew whether Pettit was a good defender or not. I'd be interested in learning more about him, though I really don't think there is a way to.

[Manute for Ever!]

I've never thought it was a conspiracy. Are there those who do?

Yeah, there are. In this day and age there is no such thing as coincidence anymore, only conspiracy. Personally, I believe the recording of blocks was more of a Cause and Effect situation.

[jlip]

He had 30-40 and 30-38 playoff games, as well. In fact, Regul8r posted a slew of his great playoff games. He also had a sensational 18 ppg, 29 rpg, .702 FG% (yes, .702) series in the '65 Finals. And in the '66 Finals, he LED Boston in scoring at 23.6 ppg.

Regul8r also posted several links which indicate that Russell's Celtics had multiple teams that were among the best ever in terms of defensive domination. I was very fascinated by one of those team's holding the Royals, who had had averaged 114 ppg, to 93 ppg in a playoff series. His data also indicated that those great Celtic teams were also among the greatest ever in points per 100 possessions.

As more-and-more of these defensive statistical analysis' are released perhaps the Jordan Generation will have a better appreciation of just how great Russell's impact was.

Do you have a link to Regul8r's thread? I don't think that I have "thread searching" privileges yet because of my limited number of posts.

[jlauber]

Do you have a link to Regul8r's thread? I don't think that I have "thread searching" privileges yet because of my limited number of posts.

I wish I did. It was in a Russell-GOAT thread awhile back. Perhaps he will chime in again.

[G.O.A.T]

Thanks to everyone for their responses, I really like looking back at things like this that can help unify eras. A lot of fans, especially the younger or more casual have a natural perception that the modern era is supreme. And while it may be, it's no more significant in it's time than any that's come before it. The present will always be king within itself. The past is easy to overlook as it is unchanging and never revolutionary in retrospect. The future however is an unknown and because of this, the assumption of the here and now as the pinnacle is proven unfounded.


Excellent thread G.O.A.T.
:applause:

I think you have done a great job. There might be a few years I disagree with, like Russell in 57, not because of his ability, but injuries, but overall it's a very strong and accurate representation of what would have happen in the NBA if the DPOY award existed. Really would change the perception of some players like Russell and Chamberlain as well on All-Time rankings when people actually realize how great their work has been in the NBA.

In summary, great analysis and accurate conclusions. I hope you will be putting this and your All-Defensive team analysis in your book as well.

As always I appreciate your input. You and GP_20 have the best threads of this type on the site, and like you this is the type of stuff I enjoy reading and talking about.

Be curious to hear which years you have a different opinion on, this is a work in progress to be sure. I feel really bad that I couldn't find a year to give Nate Thurmond, Hondo or West the award, but I just can't see it based on the team and individual stats available coupled with anything and everything I could find to read about the era.

[nbacardDOTnet]

great thread !! repped !!

[G.O.A.T]

Yeah, there are. In this day and age there is no such thing as coincidence anymore, only conspiracy. Personally, I believe the recording of blocks was more of a Cause and Effect situation.

Care to elaborate, you've piqued my interest

[Pointguard]

Great piece.

[G.O.A.T]

I never really knew whether Pettit was a good defender or not. I'd be interested in learning more about him, though I really don't think there is a way to.

Pettit was a good defender in terms of effort and controlling the defensive back board. I've never seen it written or said he was a shot blocker or a lock down guy, but team mates like Cliff Hagan and Slater Martin are quoted as saying Bob was big on working hard on defense and demanding that of his teammates.

Pettit's stroy is a very interesting one, I recommend you use the SI vault and google videos to look into if you're interested. Despite his career being 50+ years old, there is a lot out there.

[fpliii]

Bumping an excellent thread.

:applause:

[BlueandGold]

Your blatant homerism for the celtics is disguisting

other than that good list

[Whoah10115]

I wanna read over and respond, but I have to immediately take issue with KAJ.


I obviously haven't seen the majority of the regular season games, but I've seen plenty of old games and Kareem is hardly a great defensive player, much less elite. Outside of Milwaukee. He was a lazy ass on defense and Chamberlain was right in saying it was difficult to win without a center who plays on both sides of the ball. Kareem did not do that.

[1987_Lakers]

Underrated thread.

I don't think there is anyway Kareem wins DPOY in 1976 & 1979. I would probably go with Cowens in '76 & DJ or Jones in '79. Lakers were average defensively those years.

[WillC]

Excellent article, but...


1955
Candidates: Dolph Schayes, Paul Seymour, Bob Pettit, Larry Foust
Winner: Dolph Schayes
Explanation: The Nationals won with defense and while any of the five players from this team I selected as all-defensive would be a worthy candidate, but it was Schayes who was most crucial. He provided a dynamic defender who could guard the 3,4 or 5 and allow the Nats to juggle their front line with Red Kerr and forwards Earl Lloyd and Red Rocha. Plus he corralled the rebounds on the missed shots the Nats forced. An offensive force on the leagues best defensive team, I’d give him the nod in ’55.

Dolph Schayes is a horrendous choice for 1955 Defensive Player of the Year.

In his own words:

"I wasn't supposed to play defense. The teams back then were categorized in certain ways. There was a center, a passing guard, a shooting guard, a scoring forward, and a defensive forward. I happened to be the offensive forward, so I would always play against the defensive forward and he couldn't score. So I was able to kind of free-lance. I was very fortunate in that respect because it really helped my rebounding a great deal. I never boxed out. I don't teach it now because I never did it. So I would play the defensive forward, he would never get the ball, always passing off to the offensive forward, who would do the scoring. So I was always able to leave him and help rebound."

And there's more:

"In those rare instances where I had to play defense, I really didn't do a very good job. I'd hold my man to 30 points a game, which of course made [coach Al] Cervi very angry... Cervi wanted me to play more defense."

[pauk]

Good job GOAT, i just cant stop getting mindboggled about how many DPOYs/FMVPs Russell could had... may not be the most talented/skilled player ever but his accolades are hypothetically unmatched and will never be surpassed...

[fpliii]

Good job GOAT, i just cant stop getting mindboggled about how many DPOYs/FMVPs Russell could had... may not be the most talented/skilled player ever but his accolades are hypothetically unmatched and will never be surpassed...

Huh?

[pauk]

Huh?

He was very talented... but the most talented?

[michaelray]

No Sir sid moncrief in 1981 and 1982, Even as a candidate?

[MetsPackers]

Ofcourse this thread gets no play but the thread about Kobe's tweet has 40 pages

[G.O.A.T]

Made a few changes and wanted to open this one back up for discussion...



Excellent article, but...

Dolph Schayes is a horrendous choice for 1955 Defensive Player of the Year.

In his own words:

"I wasn't supposed to play defense. The teams back then were categorized in certain ways. There was a center, a passing guard, a shooting guard, a scoring forward, and a defensive forward. I happened to be the offensive forward, so I would always play against the defensive forward and he couldn't score. So I was able to kind of free-lance. I was very fortunate in that respect because it really helped my rebounding a great deal. I never boxed out. I don't teach it now because I never did it. So I would play the defensive forward, he would never get the ball, always passing off to the offensive forward, who would do the scoring. So I was always able to leave him and help rebound."

And there's more:

"In those rare instances where I had to play defense, I really didn't do a very good job. I'd hold my man to 30 points a game, which of course made [coach Al] Cervi very angry... Cervi wanted me to play more defense."

While I think the quotes are largely Schayes being humble, as is his nature, I am going to agree that Schayes does not deserve the award in 1955. I went on here to make some changes and figured I owed you credit for catching this before I did.


No Sir sid moncrief in 1981 and 1982, Even as a candidate?

1982 he was the third best defensive guard at best behind Dj and Cooper.

[LBJFTW]

Hang on OP. Let me get my dad. He might have interest in all this.

[G.O.A.T]

Hang on OP. Let me get my dad. He might have interest in all this.

Why does your generation embrace ignorance like it's a good trait?

[ArbitraryWater]

Still waiting on Regul8r coming in here and linking that Russell thread :D

[Marchesk]

So Bill Russell would have had like 10 DPOY and 7 FMVPs, if they had been handed out back then. Might have helped his GOAT case.

[Gotterdammerung]

Why does your generation embrace ignorance like it's a good trait?
It's not just ignorance, it's also bitterness masquerading as ignorance.

Bitterness is envy that has forgotten itself. And this poster is one of the most bitter on the boards.

Btw, excellent thread. Great job in compiling the list. I think your posts, especially your best OPs, organized and cleaned up, would make a great book. :cheers:

[WillC]

Earl Lloyd is a good choice over Dolph Schayes.

[ArbitraryWater]

It's not just ignorance, it's also bitterness masquerading as ignorance.

Bitterness is envy that has forgotten itself. And this poster is one of the most bitter on the boards.

Btw, excellent thread. Great job in compiling the list. I think your posts, especially your best OPs, organized and cleaned up, would make a great book. :cheers:

Pretty much.. Hopefully he's got all the threads saved up and does a Simmons like book.. would buy it :applause:

[G.O.A.T]

Btw, excellent thread. Great job in compiling the list. I think your posts, especially your best OPs, organized and cleaned up, would make a great book. :cheers:

Most of these things I post on here are rough drafts or abridged versions of the projects I have been compiling for five years now. I have three more projects I want to finish and then I want to string them together with a nice narrative for a book/website.

This has been a very hard process, when I finished my first draft I hated it. The adage is true, you don't know how little you know until you know a lot more than you did.



Earl Lloyd is a good choice over Dolph Schayes.

I'm genuinely happy you approve. As the person here I think has the most interest and knowledge about 1950's NBA I'd love to hear any thoughts you have or about any sources you've found relating to defense in the 1950's.

It's been the hardest topic for me to find source material on. Just wasn't a huge priority (or properly understood) before Russell.

[WillC]

I'm genuinely happy you approve. As the person here I think has the most interest and knowledge about 1950's NBA I'd love to hear any thoughts you have or about any sources you've found relating to defense in the 1950's.

Thanks - I'm certainly a big fan of the NBA's early years and have a room full of books on that era. My study is like a library of basketball history.

I can't really comment on particular years, but in terms of players I think you've overlooked, Bill Sharman is the first that comes the mind. Ed Macauley said the following: "[Sharman] was a very good defensive player, and people didn’t give him credit for that. He was a tough player, who didn’t lose many fights.” Slater Martin concurred: "[Sharman] was a hell of a good competitor, tough as a boot. Hell, you’d hit him, he’d hit you right back"

I know your opening post only looks at 1955 onwards, but Al Cervi would be a contender for some of the earlier Defensive Player of the Year awards. Bill Sharman said "[Al Cervi] took great pride in his defense" while Dolph Schayes added "[Cervi was] very defense-minded... His teams always played excellent defense... When he played, he was fire. He played with all his heart and soul. He’d fight and push and shove..."

Bill Sharman also made some interesting observations about Jerry West's defense: "Jerry West... was a super defensive player besides being a super offensive player. Although they didn’t keep track of stats as they do today, I would say that Jerry West blocked more shots and had more steals than any guard who ever played in the NBA. He had those long arms and great quickness that was very deceptive until he stole the ball from you a few times… He is one of the very few players that was a true superstar on offense and defense. There are only a couple of other players in the history of the league that you can say that about at both ends of the court. Many are superstars on one end, but not both. Just for fun, try to name any others."

(I love the above quote - it really gets you thinking... Jordan, Chamberlain, LeBron, Hakeem, Kobe, Duncan.... there aren't many that meet that criteria)

Going back to Earl Lloyd, it's true that he was a defensive forward, as were other black players of the time, as explained by the author Terry Pluto: "[Maurice] Stokes was the NBA’s first black star, as he came into the league a year before Bill Russell. There were other superb black players in the 1950s, but they were relegated to what was then called 'the defensive forward'."

Finally, although he was banned from the NBA after just two seasons (and, once again, played before your 1955 starting point), Ralph Beard was another great defender worth mentioning. Dolph Schayes said "[Ralph] Beard was a player who never got tired, who would go by people on offense and play great defense" while Mike Todorovich said Beard "had amazing quickness on defense".

I hope the above quotes are of some use, even if much of it applies to the early 1950s.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Imo...

1982 - Jack Sikma
1981 - Dennis Johnson
1980 - Dan Roundfield or Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
1979 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
1978 - Bill Walton
1977 - Bobby Jones
1976 - Dave Cowens
1975 - Elvin Hayes
1974 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
1973 - Wilt Chamberlain or maybe even Walt Frazier
1972 - Wilt Chamberlain
1971 - Nate Thurmond
1970 - Gus Johnson, Willis Reed or Walt Frazier (hard to say exactly)
1969 - probably still Bill Russell
1968 - Wilt Chamberlain

And back before that everything goes to Bill Russell since the late 1950's, Wilt with a great chance in 1967 or so but, still, that's like 9 more added to Bill Russell, making it 10 overall with the 1969 one, which is just crazy :bowdown: GOAT defensive player.

People need to look at stuff like this and remind themselves that the DPOY wasn't awarded up until 1983... Can't take away from certain player's legacy due to it.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Imo...

1982 - Jack Sikma
1981 - Dennis Johnson
1980 - Dan Roundfield or Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
1979 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
1978 - Bill Walton
1977 - Bobby Jones
1976 - Dave Cowens
1975 - Elvin Hayes
1974 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
1973 - Wilt Chamberlain or maybe even Walt Frazier
1972 - Wilt Chamberlain
1971 - Nate Thurmond
1970 - Gus Johnson, Willis Reed or Walt Frazier (hard to say exactly)
1969 - probably still Bill Russell
1968 - Wilt Chamberlain

And back before that everything goes to Bill Russell since the late 1950's, Wilt with a great chance in 1967 or so but, still, that's like 9 more added to Bill Russell, making it 10 overall with the 1969 one, which is just crazy :bowdown: GOAT defensive player.

People need to look at stuff like this and remind themselves that the DPOY wasn't awarded up until 1983... Can't take away from certain player's legacy due to it.



So Bill Russell would have had like 10 DPOY and 7 FMVPs, if they had been handed out back then. Might have helped his GOAT case.

Pretty much. Definitely, at least in certain people's minds.

[ArbitraryWater]

Really interested in this type of stuff...

Anyway, this same thing was done on another board, as like a project... people voted on it I think, didn't take part yet..

But these are the results on there, with a discussion going on for each year:

http://i.gyazo.com/ba416f89e06d5a3607e3b3828bdc51e4.png

[La Frescobaldi]

Larry O'Brien the commish of those days said it right on TV during a couple of games in 1974 that they waited to start counting blocks and steals until that season directly as a show of respect for Wilt Chamberlain. He said it would be totally unfair to the Legend - his word - to do it any other way.

The announcers said it a lot that year during tv games, right up to playoffs. Hope that helps with those early questions about why they started counting blocks in '74.

Great thread, G.O.A.T!!

[Psileas]

Imo...

1982 - Jack Sikma
1981 - Dennis Johnson
1980 - Dan Roundfield or Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
1979 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
1978 - Bill Walton
1977 - Bobby Jones
1976 - Dave Cowens
1975 - Elvin Hayes
1974 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
1973 - Wilt Chamberlain or maybe even Walt Frazier
1972 - Wilt Chamberlain
1971 - Nate Thurmond
1970 - Gus Johnson, Willis Reed or Walt Frazier (hard to say exactly)
1969 - probably still Bill Russell
1968 - Wilt Chamberlain

And back before that everything goes to Bill Russell since the late 1950's, Wilt with a great chance in 1967 or so but, still, that's like 9 more added to Bill Russell, making it 10 overall with the 1969 one, which is just crazy GOAT defensive player.

People need to look at stuff like this and remind themselves that the DPOY wasn't awarded up until 1983... Can't take away from certain player's legacy due to it.

Although the DPOY didn't exist in 1969, I remember having read that Walt Frazier had won a voting for the best defensive player that particular season. Has anyone else caught that? Maybe it was meant that he won more All-D votes than anyone else, although that's not the same thing.


So Bill Russell would have had like 10 DPOY and 7 FMVPs, if they had been handed out back then. Might have helped his GOAT case.

No doubt. However, I'm not sure that, if DPOY's and FMVP's had existed back then, Russell would still have won all his 5 regular MVP's. Of course, players were the ones voting back then, but still, each voter's criteria differ, and I'm guessing Russell's MVP's may partially reflect the fact that those 2 other, more specialized awards, didn't exist back then, so awarding someone the MVP would be pretty much the only way to recognise his superiority throughout the whole season.

[G.O.A.T]

Larry O'Brien the commish of those days said it right on TV during a couple of games in 1974 that they waited to start counting blocks and steals until that season directly as a show of respect for Wilt Chamberlain. He said it would be totally unfair to the Legend - his word - to do it any other way.

The announcers said it a lot that year during tv games, right up to playoffs. Hope that helps with those early questions about why they started counting blocks in '74.

Great thread, G.O.A.T!!

I can't believe I've never heard that. That's interesting. Thanks for the knowledge.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Although the DPOY didn't exist in 1969, I remember having read that Walt Frazier had won a voting for the best defensive player that particular season. Has anyone else caught that? Maybe it was meant that he won more All-D votes than anyone else, although that's not the same thing.



No doubt. However, I'm not sure that, if DPOY's and FMVP's had existed back then, Russell would still have won all his 5 regular MVP's. Of course, players were the ones voting back then, but still, each voter's criteria differ, and I'm guessing Russell's MVP's may partially reflect the fact that those 2 other, more specialized awards, didn't exist back then, so awarding someone the MVP would be pretty much the only way to recognise his superiority throughout the whole season.

I don't know about that one but I'll try to check it out on some articles... Some of my decisions on that list I've posted also come from reading articles and founding out who got more votes for the all-defensive team in a certain year, even though, like you've said, that's not really the same thing.
Anyways, Frazier probably would've walked away with one DPOY in his career, if the award was given back in his day, in similar fashion to guards such as Moncrief, Payton, Cooper or Jordan. And I think DJ would've been another one as he definitely deserved it in 1981.

Yea, I agree with that.


Really interested in this type of stuff...

Anyway, this same thing was done on another board, as like a project... people voted on it I think, didn't take part yet..

But these are the results on there, with a discussion going on for each year:

http://i.gyazo.com/ba416f89e06d5a3607e3b3828bdc51e4.png

Where's the rest?

Agree with 1982, 1981, 1979, 1978, 1977 and 1975... Don't disagree with 1980 but I'd probably would've given it to Dan Roundfield instead of Kareem, 1976 I got Cowens and 1974 I got Kareem. Overall, pretty good list, but incomplete.

[ArbitraryWater]

Where's the rest?

Agree with 1982, 1981, 1979, 1978, 1977 and 1975... Don't disagree with 1980 but I'd probably would've given it to Dan Roundfield instead of Kareem, 1976 I got Cowens and 1974 I got Kareem. Overall, pretty good list, but incomplete.



So far they've only voted back to 1974.. The goal is to go back to the Russell days at least.

[LAZERUSS]

Kind of a sidenote, but pretty interesting none-the-less...


68-69.

Wes Unseld won the '69 MVP award, along with winning the ROY(he and Wilt are the only two players in NBA history to accomplish that feat BTW.)

Unseld's play went beyond his statistics, of course, which were very good. He averaged 13.8 ppg, 18.2 rpg, 2.6 apg, and shot .476 from the field. But his biggest strength in the MVP voting came because his Bullets went from a last place 36-46, to a best record in the league, 57-25.

Still, as I mentioned earlier, those Bullet teams before he arrived were actually quit good in terms of talent, but they were always under-achieving. In the 68-69 season, Earl Monroe averaged 26 ppg, Kevin Loughery averaged 23 ppg, and Gus Johnson averaged 18 ppg and 12 rpg. Those were three excellent players, as was Jack Marin, who averaged 16.

BTW, Unseld would get to four finals in his NBA career, and went 1-3 in them, winning the FMVP in '78. Generally he played on successful teams, albeit "only" one that won 60 games (and that team was swept by the 48-34 Warriors in the Finals.)

In any case, the only real criteria in which Unseld had over Wilt in '69, was the fact that his team finished with a slightly better record (57-25 to 55-27.) In their six H2H games, the two teams split the season series, 3-3. In those six contests, and to Unseld's credit, he outrebounded Wilt in four of them. However, Chamberlain wiped the floor with him in one game, outscoring him, 25-4, and outrebounding him by a staggering 38-9 margin. Overall, in those six H2H's, Unseld averaged 11.0 ppg and 20.7 rpg, while Chamberlain averaged 21.5 ppg, 22.2 rpg, and shot a spectacular .626 from the field against him. And, of course, Wilt held a solid edge in their overall seasonal numbers, (20.5 ppg to 13.8 ppg; 21.1 rpg to 18.2 rpg; 4.5 apg to 2.6 apg; and a .583 FG% to Unseld's .476 mark.)


Reed came in second in the MVP voting in '69. His Knicks went 54-28 (just behind Wilt's Lakers, who went 55-27.) However, the Knicks conducted a mid-season trade in which they shipped out Bellamy in return for DeBusschere, and the results were a 36-11 record after the deal.

Reed's numbers were excellent all season (21.1 ppg, 14.5 rpg, 2.3 apg, and on a .521 FG%.) He was also second team all-defense. But after the trade, Reed averaged 24.3 ppg and 15.6 rpg.

However, Wilt's Lakers enjoyed a 5-1 W-L record against those Knicks, including a 2-0 mark when Reed was their center. In their entire seasonal H2H's, covering all six games (again, with Bellamy at center in four of them), Reed averaged 15.0 ppg and 12 rpg, while Wilt averaged 23.7 ppg, 22.3 rpg, and shot an amazing .712 from the field. In their two H2H's when it was Reed vs. Wilt, Reed averaged 20.0 ppg and 9.5 rpg, while Wilt averaged 28.0 ppg, 22.0 rpg, and shot an eye-popping .688 from the floor. Clearly, Wilt dominated Reed in their career H2H's before his knee surgery, and this was yet another example.


And that brings us to Russell. Just how Russell finished ahead of Wilt in the MVP voting that year was a complete mystery. There was virtually no criteria in which he had any edge over Wilt. Russell's Celtics went 48-34 (and 2-3 without him) to Wilt's Lakers' 55-27. In their six regular season H2H's, Wilt's Lakers enjoyed a 4-2 edge, which included that nationally televised beatdown in Boston late in the season by a 108-73 margin.

In their six H2H's, Chamberlain easily outplayed Russell. He outscored Russell, 6-0, which included one game by a 35-5 margin. And he outrebounded Russell, 5-0-1, which included staggering margins of 21-8 and 42-18. Overall, in those six H2H's, Chamberlain outscored Russell by a 16.0 ppg to 6.7 ppg; outrebounded Russell by a 24.0 rpg to 17.0 rpg margin; and Wilt outshot Russell from the field by a .493 to .340 margin. Russell did hold a slim 35-29 assist edge, though.


There you have it. His teams went 3-3, 5-1 (2-0), and 4-2 Unseld's, Reed's, and Russell's. Only Unseld enjoyed an overall better team record (57-25 to Wilt's 55-27,...while Wilt held a 55-27 to 54-28 edge over Reed's, and a 55-27 to 48-34 margin over Russell's.) And Wilt basically clobbered Unseld, Reed, and Russell in their H2H's.

BTW, and again, West missed 21 games for LA, and the Lakers went 12-9 without him. And also again, Baylor missed six games for the Lakers, and they went 5-1 without him.

And yet... Unseld finished first, Reed finished 2nd, Russell finished 4th...and Wilt? Nowhere to be found in the MVP voting.

The fact was, Chamberlain was a defensive beast in 68-69. In a nationally televised game on Christmas Day, he blocked a RECORDED (by SI) 23 shots. Which, of course, is SIX more than the "official" record held by Elmore Smith, of 17 in a game in 1974.

[dankok8]

Here are my DPOY's going back. We're doing a DPOY project on another forum and we're currently on 1972-1973 so we still have a lot to research but I have some thoughts. My list is kind of similar to SHAQisGOAT...

1982 - Jack Sikma
1981 - Dennis Johnson
1980 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
1979 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
1978 - Bill Walton
1977 - Bobby Jones
1976 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
1975 - Elvin Hayes
1974 - Elvin Hayes
1973 - Dave Cowens
1972 - Wilt Chamberlain
1971 - Nate Thurmond
1970 - Willis Reed
1969 - Bill Russell
1968 - Wilt Chamberlain
1967 - Wilt Chamberlain

1957-1966 - Bill Russell

[LAZERUSS]

Here are my DPOY's going back. We're doing a DPOY project on another forum and we're currently on 1972-1973 so we still have a lot to research but I have some thoughts. My list is kind of similar to SHAQisGOAT...

1982 - Jack Sikma
1981 - Dennis Johnson
1980 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
1979 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
1978 - Bill Walton
1977 - Bobby Jones
1976 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
1975 - Elvin Hayes
1974 - Elvin Hayes
1973 - Dave Cowens
1972 - Wilt Chamberlain
1971 - Nate Thurmond
1970 - Willis Reed
1969 - Bill Russell
1968 - Wilt Chamberlain
1967 - Wilt Chamberlain

1957-1966 - Bill Russell

Chamberlain's one-on-one play against the best centers of each season, was actually better in his 72-73 season, than his 71-72 season. He badly outplayed Lanier in their '73 H2H's, and he reduced Kareem to a .450 shooter in their six regular season H2H's. Only Dave Cowens gave him fits among the top tier centers. Interesting too, that a PEAK Kareem just annihilated both Cowens and Lanier, but by the mid-70's they were nearly matching him.

BTW, Chamberlain was voted First Team All-Defense in 72-73...and ahead of Cowens, Thurmond, Reed, Kareem, Unseld, and Hayes.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Here are my DPOY's going back. We're doing a DPOY project on another forum and we're currently on 1972-1973 so we still have a lot to research but I have some thoughts. My list is kind of similar to SHAQisGOAT...

1982 - Jack Sikma
1981 - Dennis Johnson
1980 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - either Roundfield or Jabbar
1979 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
1978 - Bill Walton
1977 - Bobby Jones
1976 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Cowens
1975 - Elvin Hayes
1974 - Elvin Hayes - Kareem
1973 - Dave Cowens - probably Wilt or even Frazier
1972 - Wilt Chamberlain
1971 - Nate Thurmond
1970 - Willis Reed - either Gus Johnson, Reed or Frazier
1969 - Bill Russell
1968 - Wilt Chamberlain
1967 - Wilt Chamberlain

1957-1966 - Bill Russell

:applause: Great list, we only disagree on a few that I've bolded in your post.

[ArbitraryWater]

The board I was talking about lol

[dankok8]

Chamberlain's one-on-one play against the best centers of each season, was actually better in his 72-73 season, than his 71-72 season. He badly outplayed Lanier in their '73 H2H's, and he reduced Kareem to a .450 shooter in their six regular season H2H's. Only Dave Cowens gave him fits among the top tier centers. Interesting too, that a PEAK Kareem just annihilated both Cowens and Lanier, but by the mid-70's they were nearly matching him.

BTW, Chamberlain was voted First Team All-Defense in 72-73...and ahead of Cowens, Thurmond, Reed, Kareem, Unseld, and Hayes.

While Kareem did dominate Wilt more individually in 1971-1972, there is little doubt that Wilt was more impactful defensively in that season. More DWS in less minutes. And he fueled those Laker fast breaks with his outlet passing as well as anyone ever ever did. Plus in 1972-1973, both Cowens and Haywood gave him fits. Spencer Haywood averaged 28.8/14.8... Cowens 31.3/19.8. In his last season, despite winning the rebounding the title, Wilt got killed on the glass by the 3 best rebounders in the game other than himself.

21.6 to 16.6 by Thurmond (7-0 in individual games)
18.0 to 16.0 by Kareem (5-1 in individual games)
19.8 to 14.5 by Cowens (3-1 in individual games)

15-2... Ouch!

Cowens' Celtics had the best defense in the league. Dave won the MVP over Kareem based on his defensive impact.

[LAZERUSS]

As yet another side-note...

In Wilt's LAST season (72-73), he averaged 5.4 bpg (thanks to ThaRegul8r's research.)

As La Frescobaldi mentioned previously, the NBA did not "officially" begin recording blocked shots until the very next season. Elmore Smith ran away with the bpg mark in that 73-74 season, at 4.9 bpg. Kareem was a distant second at 3.5 bpg, and an injury-riddled Thurmond was at 2.9 (would have been enough for fifth had he had enough games to qualify.) Thurmond was considered the third best shot-blocker of the 60's (behind Wilt and Russell.)

Chamberlain's mark, achieved at age 36, would be good enough for second all-time and just behind a peak Eaton's mark of 5.6 bpg, which was set just 12 years after Wilt retired.

Clearly, a PRIME Chamberlain was easily at 8+ bpg, and Harvey Pollack had him with SEASONS of 10+ bpg.

[LAZERUSS]

While Kareem did dominate Wilt more individually in 1971-1972, there is little doubt that Wilt was more impactful defensively in that season. More DWS in less minutes. Plus in 1972-1973, both Cowens and Haywood gave him fits. Spencer Haywood averaged 28.8/14.8... Cowens 31.3/19.8. In his last season, despite winning the rebounding the title, Wilt got killed on the glass by the 3 best rebounders in the game other than himself.

21.6 to 16.6 by Thurmond (7-0 in individual games)
18.0 to 16.0 by Kareem (5-1 in individual games)
19.8 to 14.5 by Cowens (3-1 in individual games)

15-2... Ouch!

Cowens' Celtics had the best defense in the league. Dave won the MVP over Kareem based on his defensive impact.


Well, and as always, he SLAUGHTERED Nate on the glass in their five post-season games, 23.6 rpg to 17.2 rpg. As well as outshooting him from the field by a .611 to .373 margin. Keep in mind that Nate finished second in rpg during the regular season (and considerably behind Chamberlain.)

[LAZERUSS]

While Kareem did dominate Wilt more individually in 1971-1972, there is little doubt that Wilt was more impactful defensively in that season. More DWS in less minutes. And he fueled those Laker fast breaks with his outlet passing as well as anyone ever ever did. Plus in 1972-1973, both Cowens and Haywood gave him fits. Spencer Haywood averaged 28.8/14.8... Cowens 31.3/19.8. In his last season, despite winning the rebounding the title, Wilt got killed on the glass by the 3 best rebounders in the game other than himself.

21.6 to 16.6 by Thurmond (7-0 in individual games)
18.0 to 16.0 by Kareem (5-1 in individual games)
19.8 to 14.5 by Cowens (3-1 in individual games)

15-2... Ouch!

Cowens' Celtics had the best defense in the league. Dave won the MVP over Kareem based on his defensive impact.

Actually the Bucks had the best defense in the league. They finished second in ppg allowed behind the Knicks (99.0 to NY's 98.2 ppg), and ran away with FG% against mark of .422 (next best team was at .434.) BTW, Wilt's Lakers were also a better defensive team than Cowen's Celtics.

The Bucks from '70-71 thru 73-74 were arguably the greatest defensive team in NBA history.

[G.O.A.T]

Here are my DPOY's going back. We're doing a DPOY project on another forum and we're currently on 1972-1973 so we still have a lot to research but I have some thoughts. My list is kind of similar to SHAQisGOAT...

1982 - Jack Sikma
1981 - Dennis Johnson
1980 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
1979 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
1978 - Bill Walton
1977 - Bobby Jones
1976 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
1975 - Elvin Hayes
1974 - Elvin Hayes
1973 - Dave Cowens
1972 - Wilt Chamberlain
1971 - Nate Thurmond
1970 - Willis Reed
1969 - Bill Russell
1968 - Wilt Chamberlain
1967 - Wilt Chamberlain

1957-1966 - Bill Russell

The two Elvin Hayes selections really baffle me. Not only was Hayes not considered the best defender at his position, he didn't guard the oppositions centers either. He was a shot blocker, and a good one. Picture Amare Stoudemire with timing and defensive instincts, so I can see why someone might think of him as a top flight defender. D.C had good defenses in the 70's, but those Bullet teams had great defensive front courts overall. Unseld was a great help defender and could hold his own with most of the centers in the league. Dandridge was a top-notch defender and before him Riordan brought all-defensive team credentials to the table. Everyone did what they were best at.

The bigger issue is that Hayes was a lousy person and didn't have the mindset to be a great defender or great all-around offensive player. He once said of passing "I'm an all-star don't ask me to pass unless you'd ask Babe Ruth to bunt." And of defense, "The best defense is a good offense and the best offense is me."

Above all of my opinions, he was second team all-defense in both seasons as a forward. I don't think a second team player at the forward spot has ever won the award. Surely you could take Kareem, Thurmond, DeBusschere or Frazier or Havlicek or Sloan over him in '74.

In '75 Silas, Sloan, Havlicek, Kareem again are better choices in my opinion.

Be curious to see what you guys dug up on Hayes to make you lean that way.

Also confused by the Sikma pick in 1982. He had a habit of getting eaten alive by the top centers in the league. Kareem averaged 30 on him, Parrish 28, Issel 24 a game, an aging Artis Gilmore had a 20/20 game versus him that year I believe, Joe Barry Carrol had two 30+ games against him, and as someone pointed out today in the forum, Moses Malone out-rebounded him by 30 one game and averaged over 31 per game in five head to head meetings with Sikma.

Sikma was a good defender, but I don't think he ever made another all-defensive team besides that second team selection that season, also curious what discussion led to that choice.

Thanks for joining in the thread and sharing your opinions.

[LAZERUSS]

The two Elvin Hayes selections really baffle me. Not only was Hayes not considered the best defender at his position, he didn't guard the oppositions centers either. He was a shot blocker, and a good one. Picture Amare Stoudemire with timing and defensive instincts, so I can see why someone might think of him as a top flight defender. D.C had good defenses in the 70's, but those Bullet teams had great defensive front courts overall. Unseld was a great help defender and could hold his own with most of the centers in the league. Dandridge was a top-notch defender and before him Riordan brought all-defensive team credentials to the table. Everyone did what they were best at.

The bigger issue is that Hayes was a lousy person and didn't have the mindset to be a great defender or great all-around offensive player. He once said of passing "I'm an all-star don't ask me to pass unless you'd ask Babe Ruth to bunt." And of defense, "The best defense is a good offense and the best offense is me."

Above all of my opinions, he was second team all-defense in both seasons as a forward. I don't think a second team player at the forward spot has ever won the award. Surely you could take Kareem, Thurmond, DeBusschere or Frazier or Havlicek or Sloan over him in '74.

In '75 Silas, Sloan, Havlicek, Kareem again are better choices in my opinion.

Be curious to see what you guys dug up on Hayes to make you lean that way.

Also confused by the Sikma pick in 1982. He had a habit of getting eaten alive by the top centers in the league. Kareem averaged 30 on him, Parrish 28, Issel 24 a game, an aging Artis Gilmore had a 20/20 game versus him that year I believe, Joe Barry Carrol had two 30+ games against him, and as someone pointed out today in the forum, Moses Malone out-rebounded him by 30 one game and averaged over 31 per game in five head to head meetings with Sikma.

Sikma was a good defender, but I don't think he ever made another all-defensive team besides that second team selection that season, also curious what discussion led to that choice.

Thanks for joining in the thread and sharing your opinions.

Defensive Win Shares.

[LAZERUSS]

Russell from '57 thru '66 (but Wilt's impact in his '64 season was a remarkable turn-around for his Warriors.)

'67 Wilt
'68 Wilt
'69 Wilt
'70 Reed
'71 Kareem
'72 Wilt
'73 Wilt
'74 Kareem

[ArbitraryWater]

The two Elvin Hayes selections really baffle me. Not only was Hayes not considered the best defender at his position, he didn't guard the oppositions centers either. He was a shot blocker, and a good one. Picture Amare Stoudemire with timing and defensive instincts, so I can see why someone might think of him as a top flight defender. D.C had good defenses in the 70's, but those Bullet teams had great defensive front courts overall. Unseld was a great help defender and could hold his own with most of the centers in the league. Dandridge was a top-notch defender and before him Riordan brought all-defensive team credentials to the table. Everyone did what they were best at.

The bigger issue is that Hayes was a lousy person and didn't have the mindset to be a great defender or great all-around offensive player. He once said of passing "I'm an all-star don't ask me to pass unless you'd ask Babe Ruth to bunt." And of defense, "The best defense is a good offense and the best offense is me."

Above all of my opinions, he was second team all-defense in both seasons as a forward. I don't think a second team player at the forward spot has ever won the award. Surely you could take Kareem, Thurmond, DeBusschere or Frazier or Havlicek or Sloan over him in '74.

In '75 Silas, Sloan, Havlicek, Kareem again are better choices in my opinion.

Be curious to see what you guys dug up on Hayes to make you lean that way.


The arguments were: (Most posters leaned to Hayes btw)

Elvin Hayes (Washington Bullets)



1st In Defensive Win Shares (8.1)

1st in Rebounds Per Game (18.1)

5th In Blocks Per Game (3.0)

1st In Defensive Rebounds

2nd In Defensive Rating (88.6)

8th In Block Percentage (3.4)

1st In Defensive Rebound Percentage (29.7)

1st in Minutes Per Game: 44.5

Underrated in challenging shots, anchored 4th best defense, more weight to carry defensively than Kareem, greater statistical impact on his team opposed to Kareem/Lanier/Ray + Article: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=4BldAAAAIBAJ&sjid=e1oNAAAAIBAJ&pg=4739,8464299&dq=elvin+hayes+defense&hl=en

If you're right about the stuff you posted than it does seem like you're a bit better informed though... Now I just rehashed some of the arguments made, haven't made any of my own research yet, so I won't judge.. None the less I was aware of Elvin being pretty lazy and not up mentally to be a defensive juggernaut / powerhouse.

[LAZERUSS]

The arguments were: (Most posters leaned to Hayes btw)

Elvin Hayes (Washington Bullets)



1st In Defensive Win Shares (8.1)

1st in Rebounds Per Game (18.1)

5th In Blocks Per Game (3.0)

1st In Defensive Rebounds

2nd In Defensive Rating (88.6)

8th In Block Percentage (3.4)

1st In Defensive Rebound Percentage (29.7)

1st in Minutes Per Game: 44.5

Underrated in challenging shots, anchored 4th best defense, more weight to carry defensively than Kareem, greater statistical impact on his team opposed to Kareem/Lanier/Ray + Article: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=4BldAAAAIBAJ&sjid=e1oNAAAAIBAJ&pg=4739,8464299&dq=elvin+hayes+defense&hl=en

If you're right about the stuff you posted than it does seem like you're a bit better informed though... Now I just rehashed some of the arguments made, haven't made any of my own research yet, so I won't judge.. None the less I was aware of Elvin being pretty lazy and not up mentally to be a defensive juggernaut / powerhouse.

Excellent research...

:applause:

[dankok8]

Well, and as always, he SLAUGHTERED Nate on the glass in their five post-season games, 23.6 rpg to 17.2 rpg. As well as outshooting him from the field by a .611 to .373 margin. Keep in mind that Nate finished second in rpg during the regular season (and considerably behind Chamberlain.)

DPOY is a regular season award.

[LAZERUSS]

DPOY is a regular season award.

Yes. But then using a small sample of games against the league's BEST rebounder (and by 2 rpg I might add) is not fair to Wilt, either.

He was the DPOY in '73...clearly.

BTW, Wilt didn't just annihilate Thurmond in the '73 WCF's, either (23.6 rpg in 45 mpg to Nate's 17.2 rpg in 42.2 mpg). In the first round, against the Bulls "three-headed" monster of Dennis Awtry, Clifford Ray, and Tom Boerwinkle, Wilt outrebounded the three...combined... 172-95, in their seven game series (BTW, Wilt averaged 48 mpg in that series, and those three combined, averaged 47.7 mpg.) Then, in the Finals, he outrebounded the Knicks twosome of Reed and Lucas, who combined to play 48 mpg (same as Wilt's mpg)... 93-69.

Overall, in Wilt's LAST post-season, he outrebounded ALL of his centers...combined...383-250, or ...22.5 rpg to 14.7 rpg. He also collectively outshot them from the field by a .552 to .450 margin.

[G.O.A.T]

The arguments were: (Most posters leaned to Hayes btw)

Elvin Hayes (Washington Bullets)



1st In Defensive Win Shares (8.1)

1st in Rebounds Per Game (18.1)

5th In Blocks Per Game (3.0)

1st In Defensive Rebounds

2nd In Defensive Rating (88.6)

8th In Block Percentage (3.4)

1st In Defensive Rebound Percentage (29.7)

1st in Minutes Per Game: 44.5

Underrated in challenging shots, anchored 4th best defense, more weight to carry defensively than Kareem, greater statistical impact on his team opposed to Kareem/Lanier/Ray + Article: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=4BldAAAAIBAJ&sjid=e1oNAAAAIBAJ&pg=4739,8464299&dq=elvin+hayes+defense&hl=en

If you're right about the stuff you posted than it does seem like you're a bit better informed though... Now I just rehashed some of the arguments made, haven't made any of my own research yet, so I won't judge.. None the less I was aware of Elvin being pretty lazy and not up mentally to be a defensive juggernaut / powerhouse.

I wouldn't say Hayes anchored those teams, I'd say Unseld did, at least other than '74 when he was injured and missed a lot of time. If you notice their team defense was better statistically in '73 and '75 when Unseld was healthy and their leading rebounder.

I also don't think Hayes had a greater burden to carry than Kareem. As I mentioned Hayes played with two very good defenders in the frontcourt whereas Kareem never had a legit PF to play alongside until Kermit Washington, years later in LA. Kareem didn't have the ultimate team player and one of the leagues best rebounders by his side, he had to guard the opposing centers every night. Cowens, Thurmond, McAdoo, Lanier, Sam Lacey. When they played the Knicks he had to chase DeBusschere or Lucas outside the paint or give up chip shots and still anchor the defense.

I can see how someone could look at the raw numbers and draw that conclusion, but watching Hayes he seemed to play defense for stats. He'd gamble a lot, try to block too many shots and give up on help to get rebounding position. He never made the all-defensive team after '74 and '75 or before. I just don't see him as a DPOTY type guy.

[dankok8]

"Hayes scored 8 points in the closing minutes and his defensive work helped the Capitol Bullets take a 102-100 National Basketball Associated victory over the Knicks Tuesday night."

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=4BldAAAAIBAJ&sjid=e1oNAAAAIBAJ&pg=4739,8464299&dq=elvin+hayes+defense&hl=en

"A man of considerable self-confidence, Shue believed he could alleviate most of the pressure that had so obviously troubled Hayes on the Rockets, a poor team for which Elvin felt he had to win games singlehandedly. Shue has done it by dividing the center's offensive duties between sure-handed Unseld, who does most of the passing and picking, and Hayes, who takes

[WillC]

I just don't see [Elvin Hayes] as a DPOTY type guy.

Me neither.

[La Frescobaldi]

Me neither.

Me neither.

[feyki]

Wow , Great work .

I agree with all , beside of 71 . Bucks had best drtg and We know How Knicks Stacked on defence . But Bucks had better drtg than Knicks . Kareem should real choice .

[zeerghit]

G.O.A.T is goat poster.. his threads is awesome