Kareem Abdul-Jabbar V.S. Nate Thurmond H2H game by game [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

alexandreben

10-16-2010, 07:46 PM

1970-1971
Milwaukee Bucks(66-16):
KAJ has more help this season with quality players like Lucius Allen and Bob Boozer, along with Dandridge and McGlocklin, etc., but the main difference is Milwaukee finally had a good brain—Oscar Robertson, who orchestrated and led Milwaukee to 66 wins and a Champion.
Lew Alcindor gets $280,000 a year, which comes to roughly $5,400 a week. Bucks was averaged 96% capacity attendance at home in 70-71 season.
MVP voting: Alcindor drew 133 first place votes to six for his nearest rival - Jerry West. What made it so personally gratifying to hom was that the voting was done by all the NBA players.
In the 70’-71’ season, KAJ averaged 31.7 points(shooting .577) and 16 rebounds(ranked the fourth after Wilt, Unseld and Hayes) along with 3.3 assists. KAJ crowned MVP and scoring title.

San Francisco Warriors(41-41):
Al Attles, one of the best defense player in the Warriors, was named as player-coach, with the same key rosters, Warriors went 41 wins and made playoffs but lost to Milwaukee Bucks in 5 games.
Nate Thurmond talked about this second comeback of his from second knee surgery within three years. "Last winter, laying in the hospital bed after the operation, I was dead serious about quitting," he said "I was depressed. I kept thinking about the therapy again, strengthening the muscles, all the running I'd have to do. I asked myself if playing pro basketball was worth all of that again. At the time, I didn't think it was. I was looking for the easy way out, I guess." Thurmond said coming back this season is no different for him than the comeback he made last season abbreviated as it may have been. "Last year, I might've been a little reckless. A little too eager to get things working again. This year, I'm taking things slower. I'm more cautious. If the knee goes again, things won't be looking too good for me. I've gotta be a little careful."
In the 70’-71’ season, Thurmond averaged 20 points(shooting .445) 13.8 rebounds and 3.1 assists and played all of 82 games.

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Mon, Nov 16, 1970 Milwaukee Bucks San Francisco Warriors: W 119-100
Alcindor: 31pts; Thurmond: 25pts
Lew Alcindor scored 31 points and Bob Dandridge added 30 tonight in leading the Milwaukee Bucks to a 119-100 victory over the San Francisco Warriors
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Sat, Nov 21, 1970 Milwaukee Bucks @ San Francisco Warriors: W 127-102
Alcindor: 29pts Thurmond: 30pts
This is two games away from Nate Thurmond passed Wilt Chamberlain's SG Warriors' team scoring record, Milwaukee Bucks limited San Francisco to only points in the second period, the Bucks rolled to their 13th consecutive victory. Alcindor and Thurmond waged a stirring duel in the first quarter. Alcindor scored 14 points, including 8 in a row late in the period in a spree which he climaxed with a spectacular driving stuff shot. Thurmond, called by Alcindor "the best center I've ever played against," countered with 12, of which most were from medium or long range. Alcindor settled for a single field goal in the second quarter and finished the half with 16 points while Thurmond ran his first half total to 18pts and finished a game high 30 points.
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Sat, Dec 26, 1970 Milwaukee Bucks San Francisco Warriors: W 131-111
Alcindor: 34pts; Thurmond: 25pts
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Sat, Feb 6, 1971 Milwaukee Bucks @ San Francisco Warriors: W 111-85
Alcindor: 17pts(8-19), 11rbs, 3ast; Thurmond: 9pts(4-17), 8rbs, 2ast
Lew Alcindor scored only 17points, but was a dominant factor in the game, not only held his rival center, Nate Thurmond, in check, he blocked shots by other Warriors and generally intimidated the San Francisco offense.
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Sat, Feb 20, 1971 Milwaukee Bucks @ San Francisco Warriors: W 104-96
Alcindor: 25pts; Thurmond: 30pts
Warrior Nate Thurmond led everybody with 30 while Lew had 25. Jerry Lucas was held to seven.. In the Bucks' previous victory over seattle, Lew Alcindor sank 18 of 29 shots, scored 42 points 29 rebounds 9 shot blocks and 7 assists.. after this game against Thurmond, Alcindor scored 36 points and 26 rebounds on Phoenix... as usual, Lew always had big stats when not battling with Thurmond.
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Tue, Feb 23, 1971 Milwaukee Bucks San Francisco Warriors: W 118-107
Alcindor: 25pts(12-27), 16rbs; Thurmond: 24pts(10-22), 9rbs
Big O scored game high 26pts and passed Guy Rodgers' assists records.
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Playoffs:Game 1 , Sat, Mar 27, 1971 Milwaukee Bucks @ San Francisco Warriors: W 107-96
Alcindor: 25pts, 10rbs; Thurmond: 19pts
With Oscar Robertson scoring 31 points(14-23) along with 9 assists and 7 rebounds, and Lew Alcindor 25 points and 10 rebounds in 38 minutes, Thurmond 19pts, Jerry Lucas 15 points, Mullins led the Warriors with 30pts.
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Game 2, Mon, Mar 29, 1971 San Francisco Warriors: W 104-90
Alcindor: 26pts; Thurmond: 18pts
Lew Alcindor 26pts, Dandridge added 21, Oscar 15pts, SFW hitting a miserable 25% from the floor in the first quarter, Thurmond led SFW with 18pts, Lucas 8pts,
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Game 3, Tue, Mar 30, 1971 San Francisco Warriors: W 114-102
Alcindor: 33pts Thurmond: 23pts
It was the 12th victory in a row by the bucks over the Warriors over two seasons, Lew Alcindor of Miwaukee topped all scorers with 33 and Jerry Lucas had 25 points and 20 rebounds for SanFrancisco
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Game 4, Thu, Apr 1, 1971 @ San Francisco Warriors: L 104-106
Alcindor: 32pts(11-25), 21rbs, 2ast Thurmond: 17pts(7-16), 12rbs, 5ast
Lew Alcindor and Jerry Lucas each scored 32 points to share the game's high scoring honors. Joe Ellis' lucky 40-foot jump shot ended 12 consecutive losses to Milwaukee.
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Lew Alcindor averaged 26.6 points against Thurmond in the regular season, and 27.8 points in the playoffs. But he finally had four games scored 30+ points against Warriors, two in the regular and the other two in the playoffs, and one game below 20 points.

alexandreben

10-16-2010, 07:47 PM

1971-1972

Milwaukee Bucks(63-19):
This season is KAJ’s absolute scoring peak season, he played 81 games shooting .574 and averaging 34.8 points, which gave him the scoring title, 6pts more than the very second scorer Archibald 28.2pts, KAJ also averaged 16.6 rebounds which’s third behind Wilt and Unseld (the fourth is Thurmond’s 16.1rbs), and 4.6 assists, shooting .574, he won his second MVP award. Bucks finished with 63wins and killed GS Warriors in 5 games (as usual) in the playoffs but lost to Lakers which led by Wilt and won the title.

Golden State Warrirors(51-31):
Attles focused on coaching this season and Warriros sent away Jerry Lucas, but Thurmond and Mullins were still in the team, Warriors finished 2nd in the pacific division with some new bloods’ help, the former New Yorker Cazzie Russell erupted to average 21.4pts and 5.4rbs with 3.1ast, Clyde Lee averaged 14.5 rebounds plus 8.1pts per game, along with some other quality new comer from Portland Barnett also had double digit, Warriors won 10 more games than last season. Thurmond averaged 21.4pts(shooting .432) 16.1rbs and 2.9ast in this season.

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Sat, Nov 20, 1971 Milwaukee Bucks @ Golden State Warriors: L 100-107
KAJ: 17pts(7-14), 23rbs, 6ast; Thurmond: 6pts(1-9), 15rbs, 4ast
KAJ was limited to only 17pts by Thurmond, as usual, KAJ had big game stats before and after battling with Thurmond: in the previous game, Kareem Jabbar's two free throws with 6 seconds remaining tonight gave the Milwaukee Bucks a hardearned 108-107 victory over the Seattle SuperSonics It was the Bucks 10th straight. Jabbar tied the game high score with Spencer Haywood with 36 points and outrebounded Haywood 23 rebounds to 19 rebounds. In the next game, KAJ poured 39 points on Wilt Chamberlain and grabbed 17rbs(Wilt had 26rbs).
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Tue, Nov 30, 1971 Milwaukee Bucks Golden State Warriors: L 103-106
KAJ: 30pts, 24rbs; Thurmond missed the game due to injured hand
Jabbar, who committed four fouls in the first half, led Milwaukee with 30 points but missed two free throws with left and the score 101-101 The Bucks played without Oscar Robertson, who had the flu, while Warrior center Nate Thurmond missed another game with an injured hand, Thurmond suffered a 10-inch gash on his right hand slamming into the backboards in the third period in previous game against Phila.
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Tue, Feb 1, 1972 Milwaukee Bucks Golden State Warriors: W 108-97
KAJ: 21pts(10-24),11rbs, 5ast; Thurmond: 18pts(4-11), 20rbs, 1ast
Big O beat Warriors with season high of 33pts(14-20), including a 17 points blast that blew the game open in the fourth quarter, plus 9ast and 9rbs, Robertson simply couldn't miss down the stretch, and to cap his performance he threw in a 30 ft shot as the 24 second clock ran out in the closing minute. This is the first time that Big O played against Warriors this season since they required Curtis Perry, who snagged 9rbs and blocked 4 shots. Thurmond did a remarkable job against Jabbar, he played the Bucks' supercenter alone, which is almost unheard of, yet held him to 21pts, 10 of them in the last quarter, moreover, the Warrior veteran had a 14-11 edge in rebounds. KAJ has scored "only" 38pts in two games this season against Thurmond. BTW, Dandridge had 18pts 13rbs against Joe Ellis whom claimed by Dandridge that he finally found somebody as skinny as he was, although he didn't look very skinny to me..
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Sat, Feb 12, 1972 Milwaukee Bucks Golden State Warriors: W 123-100
KAJ: 34pts; Thurmond: 25pts
This game is the first time that KAJ scored 30+ on Thurmond this season, total the third time in regular season in his career. In the previous game, KAJ poured 37pts, outscored Jerry Lucas who played as center as Reed's absence, Bucks was killed by Monroe and Frazier who each had 21pts. I want to add a sidenote here: Bucks was killed by Knicks again, as usual, Bucks were 2-6 against NYK in regular since Big O on board even Robertson helped Bucks to a 114-29 regular season record and a champion last year... Bucks were 4-16 in regular and 1-4 in playoffs against NYK.
After battling with Thurmond in this game, in the next game, KAJ had big stats as usual, poured 51pts on Boston Celtics, hitting on 64% of his shots and dominated the board with 17 rebounds over Dave Cowens' 22pts and 11rbs. KAJ averaged 44.8pts against Celtics in 4 games, again, as I said, a huge difference compare with his 24pts average in three games against Thurmond this season. And again, this is KAJ’s scoring peak season by averaging 34.8pts per game, somehow he scored 10pts lower than his average when against Thurmond..
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Playoffs:
Game 1, Tue, Mar 28, 1972 Golden State Warriors: L 106-117
KAJ: 28pts, 15rbs; Thurmond: 22pts, 20rbs
Thurmond, the big man who plays Kareem tougher than anybody in the league, was good on 10 out of 23 for 22 points, and hauled down 20 rebounds gave Golden State a 53-45 margin in rebounds. Kareem was 13 of 29 for 28 points but didn't dominage the boards with his 15 rebounds, Thurmond forced Jabbar away from the basket so Lee can out reound Perry as he is 6ft-10 against Perry 6ft-7, Lee had 16 rebounds more than twice as many as any other Buck. Jim "Crazy Horse" Barnett scored a game high of 30pts and Mullins scored 29pts.
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Game 2, Thu, Mar 30, 1972 Golden State Warriors: W 118-93 KAJ: 25pts(12-27), 22rbs; Thurmond: 32pts, 18rbs
Thurmond paced the Warriors with 32 points and 18 rebounds, but Cazzie Russell was 2nd highest scorer with 16 points. the only other double figurer was Jim Barnett(30pts in openening game 1) with 10. Kareem led the charge with 25 points(12-27) and 22 rebounds and 9 assists, Oscar sank 8 of 14 shots for 17 points and 9 assists. Bob Dandridge added 21 points, Lucius Allen 14 and Wally Jones 12.
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Game 3, Sat, Apr 1, 1972 @ Golden State Warriors: W 122-94
KAJ: 23pts(10-26), 16rbs, 5ast; Thurmond: 21pts(10-24), 21rbs, 2ast
The Bucks played their best defense of the year, they held Russel and Mullins 6 or 8 points below their average. Big O scored 20pts 9rbs 14ast, Perry provided 14rbs. Thurmond topped GS with 21 points, Barnett had 18 points but only scored 4pts in the second-half; KAJ scored 23 points and tied with Andria, Lucius Allen scored 21 points as Bucks won 122:94
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Game 4, Tue, Apr 4, 1972 @ Golden State Warriors: W 106-99
KAJ: 15pts(6-17), 20rbs, 6ast; Thurmond: 26pts(10-28), 15rbs, 5ast
Thurmond plays KAJ tougher than any center in the NBA again had a big game with 26 points(10-28) 15 rebounds. Jim(Crazy Horse) Barnett, who threw a 50ft bomb at the third quarter horn, led the Warriors by 29 points. Kareem was held by Thurmond to a season low of 15 points and went scoreless the entire second quarter and didn't tally in the third frame until only four minutes remained in the third quarter, the Bucks' two superstars KAJ and Big O combined only 26pts, the only reason they won only because the forwar star Dandrige and Perry, of course Warriors' terrible 38.8% shooting too. Dandridge was the key to Buck's win, he drilled in 31 points and got a good helping hand from the rest of the Bucks, Curtis Perry 17pts 12rbs, Lucius Allen 15pts and Oscar and Wally Jones 11 apiece. Big O only scored 11pts(3-12) 6rbs 11ast...
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Game 5, Thu, Apr 6, 1972 Golden State Warriors: W 108-100
KAJ: 23pts(8-22), 22rbs; Thurmond: 26pts(10-23), 15rbs
KAJ shot only 40.5% for the series, compared with 57.4% for the regular season… Thurmond outscored KAJ 26-23, but was outrebounded by 15-22, but Nate has 7ast against Kareem's 3ast; Dandridge continued to shine with 29pts, Big O scored 23pts(8-22) with 6rbs 8ast, Lucius Allen got involved with a fight with Wiliams, who was ejected, scored 24pts 6rbs 5ast; KAJ was outplayed by Thurmond but Bucks still murdered Warriors in 5 games and moved on to against Lakers led by Wilt Chamberlain in the next round, the latter won the title.
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Again, like I mentioned, during Jabbar’s peak season played against Thurmond in regular season, Jabbar had only one 30+ and two games below 20 points against Thurmond, KAJ scored 24 points, 10.8pts lower than his regular average(34.8pts), which’s almost 30% decrease; and in the playoffs against Thurmond KAJ only shot .405 averaged 22.8pts which’s 34% decrease compare with his regular average, this is one of the best arguments & proof that Thurmond is one of the GOAT defenders in NBA history.

alexandreben

10-16-2010, 07:47 PM

1972-1973
Milwaukee Bucks(60-22):
Bucks had the second best record in the league tied with Lakers, originally, it had been determined that a special playoff game would be held to decide the conference champion, and then Wayne won the home court advantage on a coin flip over the GM of Lakers Pete Newell, who called heads for the coin flip, just as he had done last Friday and as the phoenix suns had done in the flip for Lew Alcindor in 1969. And then Milwaukee Bucks won the second coin flip as Lakers refused to come and play with Bucks, hence, the Western Champion was decided (by a coin flip shockingly..), as a result, Bucks as the conference champion opened the first round of the playoffs against the Warriors, and Lakers as No.2 team opened against Bulls whom they battled for 7 games to win, and then Lakers crushed Warriors in second round within 5 games. Surprisingly, Bucks were eliminated in the first round by their old familiar rival Warriors, who lost to Bucks 5 out of 6 games in regular season, karma is a biaaatch...
In this season, KAJ averaged 30.2points(on .554 FG%), second to Archibald who crowned the scoring title with 34pts, KAJ’s 16.1 rebounds ranked fourth in the league behind Wilt, Thurmond and Cowens, yet Kareem’s 5 assists per game was the second highest in his career, tied with his first year in Lakers.

Golden State Warriors(47-35):
Rick Barry finally back to Warriors in 72’-73’, this is one of the reasons they beat Bucks in the playoffs.. Chamberlain 38 year old center of the Los Angeles Lakers had 1334 rebounds for an 18.5rbs per game average Golden State's Nate Thurmond is second at 17.1rbs, he also has 17.1 points(on .446 FG%) per game.
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Sat, Oct 14, 1972 Milwaukee Bucks @ Golden State Warriors: W 81-77
KAJ: 28pts; Thurmond:??
KAJ was limited to "only" 28pts by Thurmond, as I mentioned again and again, KAJ always played very well against other centers in the league: In the previous game, Jabbar poured in 41 points(17-25) in the season-opening victory over Phoenix. After defeated Warriors, in the next game against Portland Blazers, Jabbar dropped 49 points.
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Fri, Dec 8, 1972 Milwaukee Bucks Golden State Warriors: W 124-91
KAJ: 19pts, 17rbs Thurmond: 13pts
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Sun, Jan 21, 1973 Milwaukee Bucks Golden State Warriors: W 124-108
KAJ: 27pts Thurmond: 11pts
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Sat, Feb 10, 1973 Milwaukee Bucks Golden State Warriors: W 135-108
KAJ: 28pts; Thurmond: ??
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Sat, Feb 24, 1973 Milwaukee Bucks @ Golden State Warriors: L 93-102
KAJ: 27pts(12-33) ; Thurmond: ??
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Thu, Mar 22, 1973 Milwaukee Bucks @ Golden State Warriors: W 108-98
KAJ: 27pts(11-25), 9rbs, 6ast; Thurmond: 17pts(7-13), 17rbs
Big O stars again to help Bucks win their 11th win straight with 25pts 9ast 8rbs, the reason Warriors lost is Barry only scored 4pts(0-6), Thurmond as usual outrebounded KAJ with a 17-9 margin.
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Playoffs
G1 Fri, Mar 30, 1973 Milwaukee Bucks Golden State Warriors: W 110-90
KAJ: 22pts(10-24), 24rbs, 1ast, 6blk Thurmond: 14pts(5-13), 9rbs, 2ast
Thurmond left the game in the early fourth quarter, he hit his hand on the edge of a basket rim, cut left index finger, required six stitches. Rick Barry led Warriors with 22pts(9-17) 4rbs 4ast, Bucks had four players scored 20+, besides KAJ, Dandridge 20pts, Big O 22pts(9-21) 7rbs 12ast, Lucius Allen 20pts.
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G2 Sun, Apr 1, 1973 Milwaukee Bucks Golden State Warriors: L 92-95
KAJ: 26pts Thurmond: 16pts
Without Rick Barry, Warriors had 6 players scored double digits, Russell hit 20ft jump shots from all over the court and scored 25pts, Mullins added 18, Big O only had 10pts, Dandridge 15pts, Allen 24pts; The reason that Warriors won in G2: Attles decided to attack the middle, go right after Kareem."We know Jabbar is the best center in the business, we also know Milwaukee plays very good team defense, with Jabbar the focal point. But if we don't test this strength, we cut off one point of our game and make them better than they really are."Attles said "What have we been doing instead of going right to the middle? Shooting from 20 and 30 feet away. How many games are won that way? You've got to get in close, get tips, screen, hit the open man. and if you go in close and challenge the big guy, you'll create situations and maybe get somebody open for a high percentage shot."
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G3 Thu, Apr 5, 1973 Milwaukee Bucks @ Golden State Warriors: W 113-93
KAJ: 18pts, 18rbs Thurmond: 12pts
If Kareem doesn't do it, someone else does. said coach Larry Costello, it was 34 year old Oscar Robertson who did it with 8 assists and 34pts hitting 13 of 17 FGA including 10 in a row in a 113-93 victory. Dandridge added 22pts; Thurmond scored 12pts before leaving early in the final quarter. Barry played only 16min with 6pts due to sprained ankle.
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G4 Sat, Apr 7, 1973 Milwaukee Bucks @ Golden State Warriors: L 97-102
KAJ: 25pts(8-19), 14rbs, 5ast Thurmond: 8pts(4-10), 10rbs, 5ast
Clyde Lee held the key to the Warriors' victory over bucks, although averaging only 6.3 points per game, Lee snared 21 rebounds along with 10pts which tied with Dandridge who has 5rbs only. Big O, who scored 24pts(8-19) 6rbs 7ast, said afterwards "Anytime Lee gets 21 rebounds, you're going t oget beat". In the first half, Dandridge went scoreless, Jabbar only shot 1 out of 10 and only 3 rebounds, Rick Barry, the man Dandridge was assigned to guard most of the time, scored 38pts(14-28), 22 points in the first half, Barry had played only 18 minutes in G2 and G3 due to an ankle injury and a severe cold; Dandridge's difficulty may have been due at least in part to the groin injury, what happened to KAJ was caused by Thurmond, who has consistently given KAJ more trouble than any other center in the league, he harassed Jabbar to the point of intimidation, before the game was very far along, KAJ was shooting from beyond his range, this reduced his FG and kept him away from the basket, that's one of the reasons that Lee could grabbed 21rbs, Perry tied KAJ with 14rbs too. Costello blamed KAJ and dandridge after the game.
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G5 Tue, Apr 10, 1973 Milwaukee Bucks Golden State Warriors: L 97-100
KAJ: 19pts(8-24), 12rbs, 4ast Thurmond: 19pts(6-8), 5rbs, 2ast
Clyde Lee once again played a key role in the victory over Bucks, he scored game high 21pts(8-13) and game high 18rbs, Rick Barry had 18pts(3-12) 8rbs, Russell and Mullins added 18pts and 14pts; Big O scored 19pts(7-16) 4rbs 11ast, along with Dandridge(12pts) and Perry all were fouled out of the game. KAJ only shot 3-10 from the foul line. Costello, the coach of the Bucks, blame with Dandridge and KAJ again..."Kareem has just got to go harder to the basket against Nate Thurmond.". Wayne Embry questioned Bucks' will "Some of our guys just don't want to win. It's obvious. There doesn't seem to be any heart on this club. How can we so dominate a team during the regular season and then play like this when it really counts? It doesn't make any sense why these guys don't want to play hard." KAJ had missed a hook shot at the 17 second mark, then the Warriors ran out the clock.
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G6 Fri, Apr 13, 1973 Milwaukee Bucks @ Golden State Warriors: L 86-100
KAJ: 27pts(13-27), 14rbs, 2ast Thurmond: 12pts(5-16), 15rbs, 3ast
Thurmond outplayed Abdul-Jabbar rather convincingly in the series; Lee grabbed 19 rebounds for Warriors thanks to Thurmond got Jabbar off the board so he could get the rebounds; Barnett led Warriors with 26pts(11-18) 7rbs 7ast, Barry 15pts shooting 50%, Russell and Mullins added 18pts and 16pts; Big O scored 18pts(6-12) 5rbs 4ast, Dandridge only had 4pts; "I think it's disgusting,"said Jon McGlocklin, who had 18pts tied with Big O."To me, we're a better team than they are, but they played harder as a team. They were smarter in the playoffs than they had been in the regular season, and we weren't nearly as smart or as hungry.". McGlocklin's words proved that Kettles' tactics was correct--attack Kareem, who failed to lead the team to comeback, simply just couldn't play hard ball. Nobody named names, but it was no secret that Dandridge and KAJ had bad series.

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KAJ had no 30+ but three games below 20points against Thurmond this season, averaged 26 points against Thurmond in regular, averaged 22.8 points in the series against Warriors.

alexandreben

10-16-2010, 07:48 PM

1973-1974

Milwaukee Bucks(59-23):
This is the 35 years old Big O’s last season in NBA, with his final delivery, Bucks still had 59 wins and went to the NBA Finals in which they lost to Celtics in 7 games, KAJ was outplayed by Cowens in G7 by the way. KAJ was still the MVP in regular season, but the scoring title belonged to McAdoo with 30.6pts, Jabbar averaged 27pts as no.3 right behind Maravich, Jabbar’s 14.5rbs ranked no.4 in the league behind Hayes, Cowens and McAdoo, and his 3.5 shot blocks right behind Elmore Smith’s 4.9blk.

Golden State Warriors(44-38):
This is the last season that Thurmond played for Warriors, he still averaged 13pts 14.2rbs, Warriors didn’t make the playoffs. This is also the year that the league started to count the shot blocking numbers, Thurmond averaged 2.9 shot blockings per game at the age of 32 with multiple injuries and two comeback from knee surgery within three years, one might wonder how many shot blocks he had at his peak..
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Sat, Oct 13, 1973 Milwaukee Bucks @ Golden State Warriors: W 97-85
KAJ: 29pts, 13rbs Thurmond: 9pts
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Wed, Oct 17, 1973 Milwaukee Bucks Golden State Warriors: W 109-95
KAJ: 22pts(10-18), 11rbs, 5ast Thurmond: 14pts(6-17), 19rbs, 3ast
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Tue, Nov 20, 1973 Milwaukee Bucks Golden State Warriors: L 105-108
KAJ: 20pts(9-13), 11rbs, 3ast Thurmond: 11pts(5-10), 10rbs, 2ast
Nate Thurmond clutch plays: The Warriors regained the lead at 105-103 on a basket by Rick Barry who led all scorers with 31 points, and made it 106-103 on a free throw by Thurmond before Oscar Robertson's basket cut it to 106-105 with 1:45 to play, and then With 35 seconds remaining, big O drove in for a layup that would have put them ahead, but Thurmond leaped high to block it, and then he sank the clinching winning basket with 13 seconds to play and 2 seconds on the shot clock.
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Sat, Feb 2, 1974 Milwaukee Bucks @ Golden State Warriors: L 91-120
KAJ: 23pts Thurmond: 7pts
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Thu, Mar 7, 1974 Milwaukee Bucks Golden State Warriors: L 95-97
KAJ: ?? ; Thurmond left the game 2nd quarter due to reinjury his left arch
Rick Barry, currently the NBA's hottest hand, scored 31 points including the game-winner on a 20-foot jump shot at the buzzer Thursday night to give the Warriors a 97-95 victory over the peerless Milwaukee Bucks.Thurmond left the game in the second quarter after aggravating left arch, and Cazzie russell has a sore leg that's cutting into his palying time.
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Tue, Mar 19, 1974 Milwaukee Bucks @ Golden State Warriors: W 111-100
KAJ: 31pts(13-20), 10rbs, 4blk Thurmond sidelined by a foot injury
Jabbar scored 31 points on 6foot-11 Johnson who for the first time in his eight starting assignments since regular center Nate thurmond was sidelined by a foot injury; KAJ seemed to have an almost leisurely time of it as he tossed in 13 of 20 field goal attempts, mostly hook shots, grabbed 10 rebounds and blocked four shots, Johnson was limited to four points but got 11 rebounds.

----------------------------------------------------------------KAJ had neither 30+ nor below 20pts game against Thurmond in the season of 73’-74’, and Jabbar averaged 23.5 points against Thurmond.

alexandreben

10-16-2010, 07:49 PM

1974-1975

Milwaukee Bucks(38-44):
KAJ’s last season with Milwaukee Bucks, also this is Jabbar’s second lowest FG% by shooting .513 and averaged 30pts which ranked no.3 under Barry and the MVP McAdoo(34.5pts), KAJ had career low 14rbs, more importantly, this is the season that KAJ had to led the Bucks WITHOUT their brain—Big O, this is a season that test KAJ’s leadership without Oscar, under the same coach and with the same rosters, Jabbar failed to lead Milwaukee to victory, they only won 38 games and didn’t even made the playoffs. One of the reasons they didn’t make playoffs was due to KAJ’s injury, he played 65 games this season, the Bucks lost 13 of their first 14 games with KAJ sidelined by a broken right hand, the other reason was the Bucks played soft with KAJ with them, said the Bucks' coach:"This team plays harder without Kareem than with him. They leave it up to him to do it all, and it just doesn't happen." Costello's aide, Jack McKinney, seconded the motion, saying "If we could play the same way with Kareem that we do without him, we'd be close to unstoppable."

Chicago Bulls(47-35):
At his 12th season, Thurmond headed to Chicago Bulls at his age of 33(he can play with Jerry Sloan and Rick Adelman again), he played 80 games this season and produced averaged 7.9pts on a .364 shooting%, grabbed 11.3rbs per game and had 2.9blk. His H2H matchups with KAJ were limited due to KAJ’s injury and Thurmond’s limited minutes which were cut to 34min(Jabbar played 42min), he had to share some minutes with Tom and Block, Thurmond’s starting center position was replaced by Tom Boerwinkle by the end of the season, main reason was in the final four games of the season as he made 31 assists, easing the offensive pressure. Bulls lost to Warriors in 7 games in the second round of playoffs.
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Sat, Oct 19, 1974 Milwaukee Bucks @ Chicago Bulls: L 70-87
KAJ missed the trip due to injury; Thurmond: ??
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Tue, Oct 22, 1974 Milwaukee Bucks Chicago Bulls: W 92-90
KAJ sideline due to injury; Thurmond: 15pts(6-18), 14rbs
Dandrige finished with 28pts 8rbs and 5 steals, Bucks didn't sign with Bellamy, they're struggling play without a quality pivot..
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Sat, Nov 30, 1974 Milwaukee Bucks Chicago Bulls: W 2OT 101-99
KAJ: 28pts, including the decisive tip-in with 1:15 left; Thurmond 15pts
Kareem AbdulJabbar scored six of his 28 points in the second overtime including the decisive tipin with 115 left to lift the Milwaukee Bucks to a 101-99
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Fri, Dec 6, 1974 Milwaukee Bucks @ Chicago Bulls: W 99-96
KAJ: 21pts(7-22), 18rbs, 3ast; Thurmond: 6pts(2-11), 13rbs, 4ast
KAJ was limited to 21pts by Thurmond, KAJ said afterward "I had to shoot from farther out than I'd like to shoot", Dandridge was another big Buck outscoring Chet Walker in their matchup 28-15, John Block had 22pts(9-15) and 16 rebounds.
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Sun, Jan 5, 1975 Milwaukee Bucks Chicago Bulls: W 96-95
KAJ: 33pts(14-33), 15rbs, 1ast Thurmond: 10pts(5-12), 14rbs, 6ast
For three quarters KAJ was held by Thurmond to just 17 points, then in the final period, Jabbar erupted for 16 points to lead the Milwaukee Bucks to a 96-95 win over the Bulls. Thurmond said"I couldn't play him any better, I forced him out of position and kept my hand in his face. but when a guy gets hot like that there's nothing that 's going to stop him" "I had him right where I wanted him," Thurmond said, shaking his head."I played him as well as I've ever played him, and he still got 33 points. I play anybody else like that and he's lucky to get 20. He's such a fantastic player. I'd rather play against anybody but him." Since KAJ came into the league five years ago, Thurmond has been his toughest individual rival. When the Bucks did a first round pratfall against the GS Warriors in the 1973 playoffs, Thurmond outplayed him throughout the series. So when Thurmond siad that he had guarded Jabbar Sunday as well as he ever had, he was in effect saying that he had done it as well as anyone ever had. But KAJ still managed to score 33 points. Thurmond established defensive position early and refusing to budge and consistently forced KAJ out of his favorite shooting range. The strategy worked for three quarters. Thurmond held him to 17 points, and to 6 baskets in 20 attempts, in the last quarter, KAJ sanked 8 of 13 shots, including 4 long sky hooks in the last 6 minutes. "He was missing in the first half," Thurmond said."When you're guarding Kareem, you have to take both angle and length into consideration. I had things just right, and it was working. But then he stared throwing in 15 footers, and there was nothing I could do about it." "This was our third game in two and a half days, and that wouldn't have made much difference to him. He's still a young guy(27 years old). But this is my 12th year, and I'll have to admit I got tired." Thurmond is 33 years old.
-----------

Fri, Feb 21, 1975 Milwaukee Bucks @ Chicago Bulls: L 85-96
KAJ: 20pts(10-24), 14rbs, 7ast; Thurmond: 2pts(0-2), 11rbs, 3ast
Forwards Bob Love(29pts 10rbs) and Chet Walker(22pts 9rbs) combined for 51 points to lead Bulls to their sixth straight victory and their 11th in the last 12 games, it was the sixth loss in the last 10 games for the Bucks and the Bulls' win broke a string of four straight Bucks' victories over Chicago.
---------

Sun, Mar 16, 1975 Milwaukee Bucks @ Chicago Bulls: W 103-90
KAJ: 32pts(13-28), 15rbs, 5ast, 4blk; Thurmond: 4pts(2-6), 5rbs, 5ast
It used to be KAL and Dandridge. Now it is Jabbar, Dandridge and Jon McGlocklin. KAJ scored 32 points, Dandridge 24 and McGlocklin 21. That's 77points and no other Buck had more than 6 points. And scoring was all the big three did. Abdul-Jabbar also contributed 15 rebounds, 5 assists and 4 blocked shots; Dandridge, 7 rebounds, 4 steals and a great defensive job on Chet Walker, and McGlocklin, a game high of 11 assists. Tom Boerwinkle grabbed game high 18 rebounds. Thurmond was in fouled trouble and played 33min
------------------

Sun, Apr 6, 1975 Milwaukee Bucks Chicago Bulls: L 100-112
KAJ: 34pts Thurmond: ??

---------------------------------------------------------------

KAJ had scored three 30+ against Thurmond in the season of 74’-75’, averaged 28 points, this is probably his best season average stats against Thurmond so far before the latter played on the bench next season.

Until the 74’-75’ season I’ve included all their 44 head-to-head matchups(I’ve excluded their injured games) when Thurmond still as starting center, including his 33 years old 74’-75’ season, added up all those 44 H2H stats, Kareem-Abdul-Jabbar scored total of 1106 points, and averaged 25.1 points against Thurmond..

alexandreben

10-16-2010, 07:49 PM

1975-1976

Los Angeles Lakers(40-42):
KAJ wanted to be traded to New York, but Knicks was not that much into him, instead, Knicks was flirting with Wilt Chamberlain and offered him the same salary as KAJ’s salary signed with the Lakers, during his first season in Lakers, KAJ played all 82 games, got another MVP award, shooting .529 and averaged 27.7pts which's no.2 under McAdoo's 31.1pts, and career high 16.9 rebounds which crowned him the rebounding title, and a career high 4.1 shot blocks which also topped the league, plus, he had 5 assists per game. This is his best stats season as a laker.

Cleveland Cavaliers(49-33):
After 13th years in the league, Nate Thurmond played 13 games in Chicago Bulls then was traded to Cleveland Calvaliers with his 30.000 a year big paycheck, the James boys were the starting centers and PF in Bulls, Thurmond only had 17 minutes to play, averaged 4.6pts on .418 shooting and 5.3rbs at the age of 34 years old.
-------------------------------

Sun, Nov 16, 1975 Los Angeles Lakers Chicago Bulls: W 110-93
KAJ: 18pts, 15rbs, 8blk; Thurmond: 6pts
Kareem scored 18 points and pulled down 15 rebounds and blocked eight shots to lead Los Angeles over Chicago. Thurmond played 33 minutes and got 6 points. 10 days later on 26 Nov 1975, Bulls traded reserve center Nate Thurmond and reserve forward Rowloand Garrett to the Cleveland Cavaliers for center Steve Patterson and rookie forward Eric Fernsten.
----------

Tue, Dec 16, 1975 Los Angeles Lakers Cleveland Cavaliers: L 103-123
KAJ: 34pts, 22rbs Thurmond: 9pts
--------------

Sun, Dec 21, 1975 Los Angeles Lakers @ Cleveland Cavaliers: L 98-99
KAJ: 34pts(13-33), 12rbs Thurmond: 12pts
“I was scared to death about this game,”said Cleveland Coach Bill Fitch."First game home off a trip is always a tough one. Nate Thurmond has made the adjustment to our club and he did a great job against Kareem Abdul-Jabbar,"added Fitch, who watched Thurmond hold Abdul-Jabbar to only three baskets in 14 attempts in the final 12 minutes. The Lakers had one more chance to win it with 15 seconds to go, but Jabbar missed a hook shot with seven seconds remaining and Cavs grabbed the rebound. It was Cleveland's 18th rebound against 10 for Los Angeles in the final period. "I think this is the best I have played Jabbar,"said Thurmond, who put in his firt four shots and finished with 12 points."I tried to force him out a step or two. You have to play him high and by position." Jabbar, who topped all scorers with 34 points, canned only 13 of 33 from the field and hauled down 12 rebounds. "Thurmond has always played well against me and I learned a few things from him during my rookie year,"Jabbar said,"He's tall and agile. I couldn't seem to put anything in the hoop."
---------

Sun, Feb 29, 1976 Los Angeles Lakers Cleveland Cavaliers: W 108-97
KAJ: ?? Thurmond: ??
-------

Tue, Mar 16, 1976 Los Angeles Lakers @ Cleveland Cavaliers : W 109-105
KAJ: 32pts(16-20) Thurmond: ??
----

alexandreben

10-16-2010, 07:50 PM

1976-1977

Los Angeles Lakers(53-29):
29 years old KAJ maintained his MVP title by leading Lakers to 53 wins, shooting a career high .579 and averaged 26.2pts 13.3rbs, KAJ’s rebounding title was robbed by Walton(14.4rbs), but tied shot blocking with Walton’s 3.2blk.

Cleveland Cavaliers(43-39):
This is the 14th and final season for Nate Thurmond, at the age of 35, he missed almost half of the season, played 20min averaged 5.5pts 7.6rbs 1.7blk.
----------------------

Sun, Oct 24, 1976 Los Angeles Lakers @ Cleveland Cavaliers: L 95-100
KAJ: 29pts Thurmond: 8pts
The Cleveland defense held Lakers center Kareem Abdul-Jabbar without a field goal from 3:47 of the second period until the 9:41 mark of the final period.
------------

Sun, Nov 14, 1976 Los Angeles Lakers Cleveland Cavaliers: L 95-97
KAJ: 20pts Thurmond: 2pts
-----------

Tue, Jan 11, 1977 Los Angeles Lakers @ Cleveland Cavaliers: W 101-99 (OT)
KAJ: 40pts Thurmond: ??
KAJ's clutch performance: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar swept in a hook shot with four seconds left in overtime to cap a 40-point performance and give the Los Angeles Lakers a 101-99 NBA victory. Jim Chones, Cleveland's starting center, fouled out, Nate Thurmond, Cleveland's No.2 pivotman, also fouled out. So with the game on the line -- the score tied and 25 seconds left in overtime -- it was up to little-used John Lambert. After calling a timeout, the Los Angeles Lakers killed the clock until 10 seconds were left. The the ball went into the pivot, stationed in his familiar low post, Abdul-Jabbar spun on Lambert and flipped up a jump-hook that went through the net with four seconds remaining, giving Lakers a dramatic 101-99 victory. This is the last matchup between the duel KAJ and Thurmond, injured his knee again in Feb, and another held another knee surgery which ended his 14th year NBA career at the age of 35.
--------

--------------------------------------------------------------

This includes the total of all 52 head-to-head matchup(their injured games excluded) between Jabbar and Thurmond. Thanks for reading.. and maybe some of you would like to help to add those data I missed please?

jlauber

10-16-2010, 08:54 PM

Papaya Petee

10-16-2010, 08:55 PM

Okay, so you want everyone else on ISH to make threads comparing 2 people h2h?

jlauber

10-16-2010, 08:57 PM

Okay, so you want everyone else on ISH to make threads comparing 2 people h2h?

I would welcome it. These are certainly very enlightening. Thurmond was clearly as great a defensive center as any in NBA history. I would say considerably better than Olajuwon, and far better than Ewing.

Papaya Petee

10-16-2010, 08:58 PM

I would welcome it. These are certainly very enlightening. Thurmond was clearly as great a defensive center as any in NBA history. I would say considerably better than Olajuwon, and far better than Ewing.

Bill Russell > Thurmond

jlauber

10-16-2010, 09:02 PM

Bill Russell > Thurmond

No question. BUT, let's give these greats centers of the 60's their just due. If Thurmond was able to reduce Kareem to not much more than ordinary, and yet Kareem could pour in games of 40 against Hakeem and Ewing, at age 39, well, what would a PRIME Wilt, Russell, or Thurmond have done to Hakeem and Ewing? Chamberlain would have not only shut them down defensively, he would scored at will on them.

Papaya Petee

10-16-2010, 09:06 PM

No question. BUT, let's give these greats centers of the 60's their just due. If Thurmond was able to reduce Kareem to not much more than ordinary, and yet Kareem could pour in games of 40 against Hakeem and Ewing, at age 39, well, what would a PRIME Wilt, Russell, or Thurmond have done to Hakeem and Ewing? Chamberlain would have not only shut them down defensively, he would scored at will on them.

I personally believe that we shouldn't compare eras that are so distant away for two reasons. One, the game has changed, pace, defenses, rules, coaching, equipment, trainers etc. etc. etc. You cannot really tell how each one of these guys would have done against each other.

Secondly, each era has their own stars, role-models, or whatever you want to call them. You can argue that Wilt would dominate Hakeem and Ewing because he at old age matched up great against a Prime Kareem who outplayed Ewing\Hakeem at old age, but others might argue that Hakeem would play exceptionally good against Wilt and outplay him.

We never saw these guys go against each other, and we never will, so speculations like that will never be fully accepted. Give the centers their dues? Absolutely, they are GOAT candidates after all.

jlauber

10-16-2010, 09:17 PM

I personally believe that we shouldn't compare eras that are so distant away for two reasons. One, the game has changed, pace, defenses, rules, coaching, equipment, trainers etc. etc. etc. You cannot really tell how each one of these guys would have done against each other.

Secondly, each era has their own stars, role-models, or whatever you want to call them. You can argue that Wilt would dominate Hakeem and Ewing because he at old age matched up great against a Prime Kareem who outplayed Ewing\Hakeem at old age, but others might argue that Hakeem would play exceptionally good against Wilt and outplay him.

We never saw these guys go against each other, and we never will, so speculations like that will never be fully accepted. Give the centers their dues? Absolutely, they are GOAT candidates after all.

Great post. It IS difficult to rank players that did not face each other in cross era comparison's, but "bridges" like Kareem and Gilmore do give us a little better insight as to just how great the players of the 60's and 70's really were. If nothing else, if completely SHREDS the argument that defens in the 60's was much worse than today. Based on FG%, it was considerably better. And, then, when you look at just how low a FG% that Kareem shot in the MANY games against over-the-hill players like Wilt and Thurmond...well, it does make you wonder...

BTW, Chamberlain had a 45 point game against Thurmond in the mid-60's, as well as several 30+ games. Unfortunately, Wilt cut back his shooting from the '66-67 season on (especially against Thurmond.) So, the reality was, a PRIME OFFENSIVE Wilt probably only faced a PRIME Thurmond in only a handful of games. However, even in that '67 season, in an early game, Wilt was asked to pick up his offense in the second half, and he responded with 24 second half points, and finished with a 30 point, 26 rebound, 12 block game. Just some more evidence that Wilt, in his monumental '66-67 season, COULD have easily scored 40+ ppg or more.

When you consider that Wilt had 24 games of 40+ points against Russell, as well as five 50+ point games against him (with a high of 62 on 27-45 shooting); and that he had one, and perhaps two 60+ point games on HOFer Bellamy' and that he had a 58 and 52 point game against Reed...all in his PRIME...you just have to wonder what chance guys like Olajuwon or Ewing would have...especially since Wilt was bigger, stronger, faster, could jump higher, and was even more skilled in his PRIME than either of them.

ShaqAttack3234

10-16-2010, 09:18 PM

Without taking the time to add up the numbers, Kareem not only scored FAR less against Thurmond, he seldom shot 50%, and had many games in the low 40's, or worse.

Clearly, Thurmond was a beast defensively. All of which makes you wonder just how much BETTER Thurmond and especially Wilt were than Olajuwon and Ewing...both of whom an over-the-hill Kareem torched.

Given these numbers, I would HAVE to move Olajuwon behind Thurmond, and of course, WAY behind Wilt in any rankings. Thurmond was much better defensively, and a much better rebounder.

Great stuff!!

:facepalm

Ever think that individual match ups play a part? I'll try to cover everything that needs to be said here.

1.Kareem was about 230 pounds when he faced Thurmond so it makes sense that he was more vulnerable vs strong centers. The version that Olajuwon and Ewing faced was 265 pounds.

2.Kareem was a saavy veteran while Ewing was a rookie and Olajuwon was nowhere near the defensive player he'd become. Olajuwon would bite on a lot of fakes when he was young, look at how much more foul prone than he was later on.

3.The team that you're on plays a big factor. For example, Shaq put up better numbers in the '95 finals vs a prime Hakeem Olajuwon than he did in 2000 vs an old Sabonis and the 2000 version of Shaq was better, but the team's defensive strategy is very important and so is the physical match up. So by that logic, 2000 Sabonis was a better defender than '95 Olajuwon.

Continuing with match ups, Yao Ming had a lot more success defending Shaq in 2004 than Ben Wallace did, I guess a second year Yao was a better defender than the 4-time DPOY Ben Wallace? No, the reality is, Yao matched up better.

An old version of Shaq has had more success guarding Dwight Howard than Duncan did from 2007-2009, and so has Yao Ming. Means nothing as far as who the best overall defender is.

And post defense is just one aspect of defense.

The point I'm trying to get across is just because one player has much more success against a certain player, doesn't mean he's better, it just means that he does a better job reading that particular players moves or has physical attributes that make it tougher on certain players.

Also, acting like Olajuwon and Ewing were near their primes defensively in the mid 80's is ignorant.

And :roll: at Wilt being more skilled than Hakeem.

magnax1

10-16-2010, 09:25 PM

Good post Shaqattack, but I do think that it's a bit different when it's in a playoffs series and your team loses because you can't play up to your normal standards like Kareem did in 73.

jlauber

10-16-2010, 09:28 PM

:facepalm

Ever think that individual match ups play a part? I'll try to cover everything that needs to be said here.

1.Kareem was about 230 pounds when he faced Thurmond so it makes sense that he was more vulnerable vs strong centers. The version that Olajuwon and Ewing faced was 265 pounds.

2.Kareem was a saavy veteran while Ewing was a rookie and Olajuwon was nowhere near the defensive player he'd become. Olajuwon would bite on a lot of fakes when he was young, look at how much more foul prone than he was later on.

3.The team that you're on plays a big factor. For example, Shaq put up better numbers in the '95 finals vs a prime Hakeem Olajuwon than he did in 2000 vs an old Sabonis and the 2000 version of Shaq was better, but the team's defensive strategy is very important and so is the physical match up. So by that logic, 2000 Sabonis was a better defender than '95 Olajuwon.

Continuing with match ups, Yao Ming had a lot more success defending Shaq in 2004 than Ben Wallace did, I guess a second year Yao was a better defender than the 4-time DPOY Ben Wallace? No, the reality is, Yao matched up better.

An old version of Shaq has had more success guarding Dwight Howard than Duncan did from 2007-2009, and so has Yao Ming. Means nothing as far as who the best overall defender is.

And post defense is just one aspect of defense.

The point I'm trying to get across is just because one player has much more success against a certain player, doesn't mean he's better, it just means that he does a better job reading that particular players moves or has physical attributes that make it tougher on certain players.

Also, acting like Olajuwon and Ewing were near their primes defensively in the mid 80's is ignorant.

And :roll: at Wilt being more skilled than Hakeem.

Wilt, in the first half of his career was a solid outside shooting center, with a VARIETY of shots (which accounts for his somewhat lower FG%, albeit, still well into the 50's.) He not only scored far more than a prime Olajuwon, he shot considerably better in terms of FG%. AND, that does not take into account that Wilt was playing in an NBA in which the LEAGUE average ranged from .410 to .456 in his last season. Olajuwon benefitted from the defenseless 80's, in which ENTIRE leagues nearly shot 50%.

Chamberlain would have outrun, outjumped, overpowered, and scored in every fashion conceivable against Hakeem.

DatWasNashty

10-16-2010, 09:35 PM

DatWasNashty

10-16-2010, 09:36 PM

jlauber

10-16-2010, 09:37 PM

This jlauber clown is such a fukking idiot. I don't think he's aware how fukking idiotic his logic is.

"2000 Shaq, at HIS PEAK, was SHUT DOWN by Hakeem. He ONLY averaged 19 ppg on 49% shooting which is A SEVERE DROP OFF from his season averages. CLEARLY, if they matched up EARLIER, Hakeem would HOLD him to 5 ppg on 10% shooting.:facepalm

Not sure where you got your quote from, but it wasn't me. Shaq killed Olajuwon in the late 90's. BTW, I see you neg repped me too. I won't bother neg repping you because, frankly, I could not care less.

nycelt84

10-16-2010, 09:41 PM

jlauber

10-16-2010, 09:42 PM

Are you saying that Nate Thurmond was a better player than Hakeem Olajuwon?

I am. As were Russell, Wilt and Kareem.

jlauber

10-16-2010, 09:49 PM

Are you saying that Nate Thurmond was a better player than Hakeem Olajuwon?

I wonder who Kareem would have picked between the two?

DatWasNashty

10-16-2010, 09:55 PM

Not sure where you got your quote from, but it wasn't me. Shaq killed Olajuwon in the late 90's. BTW, I see you neg repped me too. I won't bother neg repping you because, frankly, I could not care less.
No, you dumbfukk, I can't rep people nor would I would ever rep someone. You didn't necessarily say that quote but that quote perfectly exhibits your faulty logic.

37 year old Hakeem held peak Shaq to 19 ppg on 49.1% shooting. Doesn't that imply a younger Hakeem who was a significantly more impactful defender should shut down Shaq? Clearly, it does, according to your dumbass logic .... but that's not close to what happened since Orlando Shaq didn't have trouble scoring on young Hakeem.

Basketball doesn't work that way. There's too many factors and variables that you have to take into account such as motivation, teammates and their production, defensive schemes, strategies and roles. You don't understand these things unless you've seen the games which an obsessive, stat-wh0re like you hasn't done so.

Psileas

10-16-2010, 09:55 PM

Great-great effort, Alex. I'll save the page.
Since you asked, Kareem scored 26 points in Sun, Feb 29, 1976.

jlauber

10-16-2010, 10:02 PM

BTW, there have been 127 30-30 games in NBA history (30+ point, 30+ rebound games), and Nate is second, all-time, with four.

ShaqAttack3234

10-16-2010, 10:24 PM

No, you dumbfukk, I can't rep people nor would I would ever rep someone. You didn't necessarily say that quote but that quote perfectly exhibits your faulty logic.

37 year old Hakeem held peak Shaq to 19 ppg on 49.1% shooting. Doesn't that imply a younger Hakeem who was a significantly more impactful defender should shut down Shaq? Clearly, it does, according to your dumbass logic .... but that's not close to what happened since Orlando Shaq didn't have trouble scoring on young Hakeem.

Basketball doesn't work that way. There's too many factors and variables that you have to take into account such as motivation, teammates and their production, defensive schemes, strategies and roles. You don't understand these things unless you've seen the games which an obsessive, stat-wh0re like you hasn't done so.

Exactly, and if someone was just adding up head to head numbers, using your 2000 Olajuwon vs Shaq example, they may forget that Shaq was ejected after 15 minutes in one of those games for the Barkley fight.

Great posts, I agree, you basically covered everything I wanted to say with the last part.

Wilt, in the first half of his career was a solid outside shooting center, with a VARIETY of shots (which accounts for his somewhat lower FG%, albeit, still well into the 50's.) He not only scored far more than a prime Olajuwon, he shot considerably better in terms of FG%. AND, that does not take into account that Wilt was playing in an NBA in which the LEAGUE average ranged from .410 to .456 in his last season. Olajuwon benefitted from the defenseless 80's, in which ENTIRE leagues nearly shot 50%.

Chamberlain would have outrun, outjumped, overpowered, and scored in every fashion conceivable against Hakeem.

A variety of shots? Are you implying that Hakeem didn't have a variety of moves? I've never seen a center with so many moves. He had so many options wherever he caught the ball. He could shoot a baseline fadeaway or use a quick spin baseline, both before the defender could react, and if the defender was ready he could still set up the fadeaway with a dream shake. Or he could go to the middle with a jump hook and if he didn't have that he had the up and under.

And that's just his post game. How about his face up game? He had a crossover later in his career and not only could he catch and shoot, but he could shoot off the dribble. Never mind his use of ball fakes.

So we're to believe the high scoring version Wilt is going to lock down Olajuwon when Bill Russell who wasn't known for his scoring, had several big scoring games vs Wilt in the '62 playoffs and easily topped his season average?

I'm sure Wilt is just going to stop moves like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRGAF0#t=2m11s this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRGAF0#t=1m43s and this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc02Z4-0wDM

Despite letting Russell score with a move like this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DZMw_B8srw#t=3m15s

And :oldlol: at using FG% to determine defense? Have you ever considered that players in the 80's were more advanced shooters and ball handlers. Or the fact that the pace in the 60's was much faster and players were shooting more pull up jumpers and 15 foot hook shots?

Besides, Hakeem was at his best in the 90's, not the 80's.

che guevara

10-16-2010, 10:49 PM

Shaqattack, you think Hakeem peaked in the 80s? Most people think his peak either in '90 or from '93 to '95.

Oh, and Wilt letting Russell score on him like that? :oldlol: I understand Wilt peaked defensively a few years later but that is just awful.

PHILA

10-16-2010, 10:51 PM

I'm sure Wilt is just going to stop moves like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRGAF0#t=2m11s this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRGAF0#t=1m43s and this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc02Z4-0wDM

"All that faking Hakeem does, if you're Bill Russell or Wilt Chamberlain or Nate Thurmond, that **** don't mean nothin'. You just don't leave your deer. You would see Robinson fall for every god-damn fake, and Hakeem would dip around or under him for an easy basket."

-1995

ShaqAttack3234

10-16-2010, 11:02 PM

Shaqattack, you think Hakeem peaked in the 80s? Most people think his peak either in '90 or from '93 to '95.

Nah, that was a typo. Hakeem was at his best from '93-'95 with his best season from start to finish being '94 and his best playoff run being '95. His level of play in '93 was virtually identical as well, he just didn't have the championship to show for it.

ThaRegul8r

10-16-2010, 11:15 PM

I'm sure Wilt is just going to stop moves like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRGAF0#t=2m11s this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRGAF0#t=1m43s and this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc02Z4-0wDM

Lord knows Hakeem became overrated (I enjoyed watching him play, but people still began overrating him after his career ended), but in the interest of objectivity, Wilt himself said this about the 1995 Western Conference Finals:

[quote]

jlauber

10-17-2010, 12:01 AM

Of course ShaqAttack posts ONE shot against Wilt, as if that is the way Chamberlain always played defense.

How about these Russell offensive stats against Wilt:

In the '65 Finals, against the Lakers, he averaged 18 ppg on .702 shooting (yes, the "inept" Russell shot .702 in a FINALS!) BUT, in the previous round against Wilt, he averaged 15 ppg on .451 shooting (Wilt was at 30 ppg, 30 rpg, and while we don't know exactly what Chamberlain shot against Russell that year in the post-season, he did shoot .530 overall, AND, in that game seven against Russell, he scored 30 points on 12-15 (80%!) shooting.

In the '66 Finals, against the Lakers, Russell LED his team in scoring (yep, the same Russell who could not score) with a 23.6 ppg average. How about against Wilt in the previous series? 14 ppg (Wilt averaged 28 ppg on .509 shooting against him, BTW, on .509 shooting.)

Here is a really good one. In Wilt's ROOKIE season, he averaged 37.6 ppg on .461 shooting (the only time in his career that he failed to shoot 50%) in a LEAGUE that AVERAGED .410. Meanwhile, Russell averaged 18.2 ppg on a career high .467 shooting. However, during their 11 regular season H2H games, Wilt averaged 38 ppg on .465 shooting (or, he ELEVATED his game against Russell.) How about Russell against Wilt? 16.5 ppg on .398 shooting!!!! (or, WAY BELOW his normal averages.)

In the '64 Finals, Wilt outscored Russell, per game, 29-11 (Russell averaged 15.0 ppg on .433 shooting during the regular season. It now appears that Wilt may have shot as high as .590 against Russell. And, while we don't know what Russell shot against Wilt in their five game series, we do know that Russell shot .356 in the entire post-season, in his 10 games (half of which were against Wilt.)

How about the '67 ECF's? Well, luckily we have ALL the numbers here. Russell "held" Wilt to 21.6 ppg on .556 shooting (Wilt's regular season numbers were 24.1 ppg on an incredible .683 shooting), while Wilt held Russell to 10.2 ppg on .358 shooting. Russell's regular season numbers were 13.3 ppg on .454 shooting.

We don't have a lot of FG% numbers in the '69 Finals, but in the game seven, Wilt outscored Russell, 18-6, and outshot him, 7-8 to 2-7.

There was a game in the '65 season, as well, in which Chamberlain held Russell to 0-14 shooting!

http://www.brainyhistory.com/topics/c/chamberlain.html

As far as Kareem vs Wilt...they met 28 times. In those 28 meetings, Kareem shot .464, which is nearly 100 points less than his career .559 percentage. Kareem used to fire away against Wilt, as well, as evidenced by him taking 30+ shots in 18 of those 28 games (with a high of 39.) However, he only hit 50% in six of them.

In the '72 WCF's, Kareem averaged 33 ppg against Wilt, but on only .457 shooting. And, in the last four games of that six game series, Kareem shot .414. Not only that, but Wilt was blocking about five sky-hooks per game.

In their six regular season meetings in the '72-73 season, Kareem shot .450 against Wilt (who shot .637 against Kareem.) Not only that, but Kareem had games of 12-31, 10-27 (Wilt outscored him in that game on only 14 shots BTW), and 11-30. Overall, in their last ten H2H meetings, Kareem shot a paltry .434 against Wilt. BTW, Wilt shot nearly 53% against Kareem in those 28 games. AND, Wilt easily outrebounded Kareem in the majority of them, as well.

Chamberlain also held Bellamy in the '68 playoffs, who had shot .541 during the regular season, to .421 shooting in that playoff series.

And Wilt faced Thurmond in three playoff series, holding him to .343, .392, and .398 in each of them (and Wilt shot over 50% in all three, including a high of .560 in the '67 Finals.) BTW, Wilt not only outrebounded Thurmond in EVERY series, he outrebounded him in almost EVERY GAME, including a whopping 23.6 to 17.2 edge in the '73 playoffs.

So, while ShaqAttack can find ONE play in which Russell scored on Wilt, there were at least a few in which he could not. Same with Kareem, Bellamy, Thurmond, and probably every center Chamberlain faced in his career.

jlauber

10-17-2010, 12:22 AM

And at using FG% to determine defense? Have you ever considered that players in the 80's were more advanced shooters and ball handlers. Or the fact that the pace in the 60's was much faster and players were shooting more pull up jumpers and 15 foot hook shots?

I see. So Kareem scoring 46 points on Hakeem, on 21-30 shooting (as well as games of 35 and 42), or putting up a 40 point game on Ewing (while holding Ewing to 2-16 shooting)...at age 39...was because of better shooting?

Or that Kareem had seasons in the 70's, in which he shot .539, .529 (in his PHYSICAL PRIME), .518, and .513, with a high of .579...and yet, in the 80's, he had EIGHT seasons (his first eight of decade) of .564 or better, with a high of .604 (and even .599 at age 37.) BTW, while he could get 14-16 rpg in his PHYSICAL prime in the 70's, he struggled to get 7 in the decade of the 80's.

Hell, Kareem shot .567 against Hakeem in their 13 H2H meetings AFTER that '86 season, (Hakeem shot .475 against him BTW), and at ages 40 and 41...and .551 against Ewing in six H2H meetings after that '86 season (and Ewing shot .483 against him.)

BUT, against Wilt, he shot a CAREER .464 (and remember, 27 of their 28 H2H games came after Wilt's knee surgery ...and in the ONE before that surgery Wilt BURIED Kareem in EVERY facet of the game.) And, in his last ten games against Wilt, he only shot .434.

Or that, as we now know, he SELDOM hit 50% against Thurmond in their 50-60 H2H meetings, with many in the low 40's, and even some in the 30's. In his three playoff series against Nate, he shot .486, .405 (yikes!...), and .428.

We also know that BOTH Wilt and Thurmond were well past their primes, too. Not only that, but Kareem never faced Russell, who was generally considered the best defensive player of his era (and many consider him the greatest of all-time.)

And, while Kareem was shooting many HORRIBLE games against Wilt and Thurmond, he was lighting up many other quality centers in the NBA in those seasons with 40-50 point games on 60% shooting. I guess it was not the defense that Wilt and Thurmond played, but rather, it was that Kareem consistently picked games against them to shoot poorly.

NO, let's not credit the DEFENSE that those guys played...it was that Kareem was not nearly as skilled in his statistical and physical PRIMES...ESPECIALLY against Wilt and Nate. Yep...makes perfect sense to me.

Gotterdammerung

10-17-2010, 01:08 AM

No question. BUT, let's give these greats centers of the 60's their just due. If Thurmond was able to reduce Kareem to not much more than ordinary, and yet Kareem could pour in games of 40 against Hakeem and Ewing, at age 39, well, what would a PRIME Wilt, Russell, or Thurmond have done to Hakeem and Ewing? Chamberlain would have not only shut them down defensively, he would scored at will on them.

Jlauber, you're operating on horribly one-dimensional linear logic. :facepalm

It has nothing to do with who's who or what's what.

It has everything to do with the following assumption:

X beat Y.

Y beat Z.

Therefore, X should beat Z easily!!

Every pro football fan thinks in this sort of linear logic.
Because the Cowboys lost to the Titans, and the Titans lost to the Broncos, that means the Broncos will definitely beat the Cowboys.

The reason that X beats Y may have nothing to do with why Y beats Z. That alone means you cannot make the following assumption that X should beat Z.
:no:
Plus, your claims about Kareem vs Hakeem is misleading: didn't Hakeem absolutely destroy the Lakers in the 86 finals? Didn't Sports Illustrated make a cover story about this "new force" ?

ThaRegul8r

10-17-2010, 01:31 AM

Here is a really good one. In Wilt's ROOKIE season, he averaged 37.6 ppg on .461 shooting (the only time in his career that he failed to shoot 50%) in a LEAGUE that AVERAGED .410. Meanwhile, Russell averaged 18.2 ppg on a career high .467 shooting. However, during their 11 regular season H2H games, Wilt averaged 38 ppg on .465 shooting (or, he ELEVATED his game against Russell.) How about Russell against Wilt? 16.5 ppg on .398 shooting!!!! (or, WAY BELOW his normal averages.)

Where do these percentages come from? What data supports their validity?

In the '64 Finals, Wilt outscored Russell, per game, 29-11 (Russell averaged 15.0 ppg on .433 shooting during the regular season. It now appears that Wilt may have shot as high as .590 against Russell.

No data has yet been found to confirm this, aside from "some poster said this, so..." As a scientist, I'm not particularly interested in hearsay, only evidence which either confirms or disproves. So far, no one has yet provided any concrete evidence, which only leads me to question any further such assertions.

How about the '67 ECF's? Well, luckily we have ALL the numbers here. Russell "held" Wilt to 21.6 ppg on .556 shooting

This, finally, is something with data to confirm its validity.

I'm extremely wary of any unsubstantiated statements, particularly over the internet, where many mistruths are spread, and even more so when, after pressing people for supporting evidence, they're unable to produce any.

The first thing I ask myself upon seeing any statement is, "is it true?" I look for evidence regarding its authenticity before actually repeating the claim myself. It damages my credibility if I make a statement that is later proven to be false, so it behooves me to make certain that something is true before I state it.

ShaqAttack3234

10-17-2010, 01:32 AM

I see. So Kareem scoring 46 points on Hakeem, on 21-30 shooting (as well as games of 35 and 42), or putting up a 40 point game on Ewing (while holding Ewing to 2-16 shooting)...at age 39...was because of better shooting?

Are you really this stupid?

Did you not read what I wrote about individual match ups? Some players match up with certain players better than other.

Did you not read what I wrote about Ewing being a rookie, and Olajuwon being a talented, but raw and foul prone player back then?

Or that Kareem had seasons in the 70's, in which he shot .539, .529 (in his PHYSICAL PRIME), .518, and .513, with a high of .579...and yet, in the 80's, he had EIGHT seasons (his first eight of decade) of .564 or better, with a high of .604 (and even .599 at age 37.) BTW, while he could get 14-16 rpg in his PHYSICAL prime in the 70's, he struggled to get 7 in the decade of the 80's.

:roll:

First of all, those 80's Laker teams were more stacked with more options which took pressure off of Kareem, especially compared to his 70's teams, go watch some of his games from the '77 playoffs and then the 80's.

And did you even take into consideration the number of shots he was taking when looking at his shooting percentage? In most cases, the more a player shoots, the more his FG% drops. The same thing happened with Wilt, his FG% rose as he shot less.

When Kareem shot 51.3%, he took 24.4 shots (he was playing on a team that went 3-14 without him so you can imagine how much the defense focused on him)
When Kareem shot 51.8%, he took 22.1 shots(playing on a team that went 27-55 the year before without him)
When Kareem shot 52.9%, he took 21.1 shots(on a team that went 30-52 the year before without him)
When Kareem shot 53.9%, he took 21.7 shots
And in that high season you mentioned of 57.9%, he took 18.7 shots

Now onto the 80's

In that 60.4% season, he took 16.9 shots
And in that 59.9% season, he took 15.3 shots

Notice a trend?

Hell, Kareem shot .567 against Hakeem in their 13 H2H meetings AFTER that '86 season, (Hakeem shot .475 against him BTW), and at ages 40 and 41...and .551 against Ewing in six H2H meetings after that '86 season (and Ewing shot .483 against him.)

Instead of just looking at the stat sheet, why don't you go and watch those games before making assumptions. We don't know things such as how much Sampson matched up with Kareem, for example.

And why do you post their FG% without posting their FGA?

Kareem- 10.8 FGA
Hakeem- 18.3 FGA

Kareem- 13 FGA
Ewing- 14.5 FGA

You also fail to mention that Kareem was in a more specialized role where he was focusing much more on offense than defense, while Ewing and Olajuwon were not in those roles.

BUT, against Wilt, he shot a CAREER .464 (and remember, 27 of their 28 H2H games came after Wilt's knee surgery ...and in the ONE before that surgery Wilt BURIED Kareem in EVERY facet of the game.) And, in his last ten games against Wilt, he only shot .434.

Wasn't Kareem taking over 30 shots in many of those games.

We also know that BOTH Wilt and Thurmond were well past their primes, too. Not only that, but Kareem never faced Russell, who was generally considered the best defensive player of his era (and many consider him the greatest of all-time.)

I don't see how Russell could exploit Kareem's main weakness at the time, which was strength. And while Wilt was almost as tall as Kareem, and Thurmond was 6'11", Russell was 6'9". But we'll never know either way.

And, while Kareem was shooting many HORRIBLE games against Wilt and Thurmond, he was lighting up many other quality centers in the NBA in those seasons with 40-50 point games on 60% shooting. I guess it was not the defense that Wilt and Thurmond played, but rather, it was that Kareem consistently picked games against them to shoot poorly.

Did I ever deny that Thurmond and Wilt were bad match ups for Kareem? Though with Wilt, part of his FG% has to do with the volume of shots he was taking

NO, let's not credit the DEFENSE that those guys played...it was that Kareem was not nearly as skilled in his statistical and physical PRIMES...ESPECIALLY against Wilt and Nate. Yep...makes perfect sense to me.

Since when does a player's prime occur from age 22-24?

The bottom line is we have no idea what Thurmond or Wilt would've done against Olajuwon or Ewing because they never played eachother. What each of them did against Kareem is irrelevant, all that shows us is how well each player matched up with Kareem at a particular time.

jlauber

10-17-2010, 01:59 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlauber
Here is a really good one. In Wilt's ROOKIE season, he averaged 37.6 ppg on .461 shooting (the only time in his career that he failed to shoot 50%) in a LEAGUE that AVERAGED .410. Meanwhile, Russell averaged 18.2 ppg on a career high .467 shooting. However, during their 11 regular season H2H games, Wilt averaged 38 ppg on .465 shooting (or, he ELEVATED his game against Russell.) How about Russell against Wilt? 16.5 ppg on .398 shooting!!!! (or, WAY BELOW his normal averages.)

Where do these percentages come from? What data supports their validity?

https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B2owWZDpxyizODY2NTAxMWEtZWIyNy00MjIzL WExOTEtNmY1ZjM4NTk4YmIy&authkey=CIuo_qcC&hl=en

Wilt made 151-325 FGAs (.465) and scored 387 points (38.7 ppg) in their ten games (going into their 11th)

Meanwhile, Russell made 80-201 FGAs (.398) for 189 points or 18.9 ppg.

So, I do apologize, Russell averaged 18.9 ppg, instead of 16.5. BUT, his FG% was much lower.

BTW, going into that 11th (and final) game, Wilt held a 30.4 to 22.9 rpg edge over Russell.

alexandreben

10-17-2010, 02:47 AM

Great-great effort, Alex. I'll save the page.
Since you asked, Kareem scored 26 points in Sun, Feb 29, 1976.
Great!

Thanks to your effort, then the only game missed is this one, do you happen to keep KAJ's stats too?

Thu, Mar 7, 1974 Milwaukee Bucks Golden State Warriors L 95 97 KAJ: ?? Thurmond left the game 2nd quarter due to reinjury his left arch

alexandreben

10-17-2010, 03:17 AM

jlauber

10-17-2010, 03:38 AM

Jlauber, you're operating on horribly one-dimensional linear logic. :facepalm

It has nothing to do with who's who or what's what.

It has everything to do with the following assumption:

X beat Y.

Y beat Z.

Therefore, X should beat Z easily!!

Every pro football fan thinks in this sort of linear logic.
Because the Cowboys lost to the Titans, and the Titans lost to the Broncos, that means the Broncos will definitely beat the Cowboys.

The reason that X beats Y may have nothing to do with why Y beats Z. That alone means you cannot make the following assumption that X should beat Z.
:no:
Plus, your claims about Kareem vs Hakeem is misleading: didn't Hakeem absolutely destroy the Lakers in the 86 finals? Didn't Sports Illustrated make a cover story about this "new force" ?

First of all, transitory comparisons have been used in college football for the past century. If team A beats team B, and team B beats team C, then yes, team A will be ranked over BOTH team B and C. They HAVE to do that, simply because college teams don't play every other team. ODDSMAKERS also use them ALL the time.

And, furthermore, the center position has been a one-on-one postion for the vast majority of games. Yes, occasionally a PF will guard an opposing center, but I would venture a guess that the center vs center matchup is FAR more frequent.

And, of course, as history has shown, when the NBA centers play each other over the course of a full season, the best centers generally outplay their opponents. ESPECIALLY in the case of Chamberlain in the 60's. NO other center DOMINATED his PEERS like Wilt did.

As for Hakeem vs Kareem in the '86 playoffs...do you have all their numbers? I know that Hakeem had a couple of big games, but I can't recall all of them.

And, even if Olajuwon did outplay Kareem in the '86 post-season, it still boggles the mind that Kareem could pour in games of 35, 42, and 46 against him (and Sampson)...and definitely his 40 point game came against Ewing...who was just awful against him.

PHILA

10-17-2010, 04:04 AM

I don't see how Russell could exploit Kareem's main weakness at the time, which was strength. And while Wilt was almost as tall as Kareem, and Thurmond was 6'11", Russell was 6'9". But we'll never know either way.

http://i52.tinypic.com/abhwg4.jpg

jlauber

10-17-2010, 04:08 AM

http://i52.tinypic.com/abhwg4.jpg

Didn't Russell have a longer wingspan than Kareem? And we KNOW that he was a much better leaper (Russell was a WORLD-CLASS high-jumper.) I don't see Kareem giving Russell nearly as many problems as Chamberlain did.

alexandreben

10-17-2010, 06:58 AM

First of all, transitory comparisons have been used in college football for the past century. If team A beats team B, and team B beats team C, then yes, team A will be ranked over BOTH team B and C. They HAVE to do that, simply because college teams don't play every other team. ODDSMAKERS also use them ALL the time.

And, furthermore, the center position has been a one-on-one postion for the vast majority of games. Yes, occasionally a PF will guard an opposing center, but I would venture a guess that the center vs center matchup is FAR more frequent.

And, of course, as history has shown, when the NBA centers play each other over the course of a full season, the best centers generally outplay their opponents. ESPECIALLY in the case of Chamberlain in the 60's. NO other center DOMINATED his PEERS like Wilt did.

As for Hakeem vs Kareem in the '86 playoffs...do you have all their numbers? I know that Hakeem had a couple of big games, but I can't recall all of them.

And, even if Olajuwon did outplay Kareem in the '86 post-season, it still boggles the mind that Kareem could pour in games of 35, 42, and 46 against him (and Sampson)...and definitely his 40 point game came against Ewing...who was just awful against him.
I'll post another thread covers all the game by game between KAJ and Akeem, but I can give you a rough numbers regarding to 86' playoffs series:

Game 1:
The 39 years old Jabbar scored 31pts in the series opening victory. Olajuwon led the Rockets with 28points and 18 rebounds, Sampson finished with 19 points.

Game 2:
Akeem Olajuwon and Ralph Sampson combined to limit KAJ to only nine field goals in 26 attempts and a total of 21 points and four rebounds.

Sampson had 24 points, 16 rebounds and five blocked shots while Olajuwon had 22 points, 13 rebounds and six blocked shots, of which many were on shots taken by KAJ.

Game 3:
Akeem Olajuwon scored a career playoff high 40 points to overcome a 33-point effort by KAJ.
"Jabbar is still one of the greatest, but when it came down to the end, our big guys came out and took it to them," said rockets guard Robert Reid.

Game4:
HOUSTON -- The sign read: "A-Keem, A-Saw, A-Conquerered"
Olajuwon scored 35 points
Ralph Sampson scored 12 points
KAJ scored 24pts

Game5:
Olajuwon was held scoreless in the first quarter but had 11pts in the second quarter and finished with 30pts and 7 rebounds before his ejection, Sampson finished with 29pts, 10 after Olajuwon's ejection.
Lakers were led by KAJ with 26 points.

alexandreben

10-17-2010, 07:50 AM

:facepalm

Ever think that individual match ups play a part? I'll try to cover everything that needs to be said here.

Kareem was about 230 pounds when he faced Thurmond so it makes sense that he was more vulnerable vs strong centers. The version that Olajuwon and Ewing faced was 265 pounds...

So I guess all my effort of putting up those stats and stories and quotes means nothing.. huh..

Thurmond didn't get the credits that he should've deserved, even I put up the stats comparison KAJ's regular and some real example against other centers like Cowens averaged 44pts shooting 60% and bombed a 54pts game, but when facing Thurmond only averaged 20+, etc.

If you're talking about pounds and strength, some players have more pounds than Thurmond or stronger, e.g. Unseld, Wilt, etc.. but none of them can limit KAJ at that level...

I don't think it's fair to judge that Thurmond is better than Akeem directly simply just look at the stats, I need to put it to the context, how they matchups, the rules, etc, but if a 39 years old KAJ can constantly pour multiple 30+ or even 40+ on the Twin Towers and rookie Ewing more than once.., people start to lean to think that way..

Psileas

10-17-2010, 10:54 AM

Great!

Thanks to your effort, then the only game missed is this one, do you happen to keep KAJ's stats too?

Thu, Mar 7, 1974 Milwaukee Bucks Golden State Warriors L 95 97 KAJ: ?? Thurmond left the game 2nd quarter due to reinjury his left arch

I have him at 27/17 in that game.

PHILA

10-17-2010, 11:01 AM

Didn't Russell have a longer wingspan than Kareem? And we KNOW that he was a much better leaper (Russell was a WORLD-CLASS high-jumper.) I don't see Kareem giving Russell nearly as many problems as Chamberlain did.
Indeed, apparently KAJ held a ball high above his head with one hand and Russell without raising on his toes was able to place his entire palm over the ball. However Nate Thurmond probably had the longest wingspan of all the top defensive centers.

jlauber

10-17-2010, 12:30 PM

So I guess all my effort of putting up those stats and stories and quotes means nothing.. huh..

Thurmond didn't get the credits that he should've deserved, even I put up the stats comparison KAJ's regular and some real example against other centers like Cowens averaged 44pts shooting 60% and bombed a 54pts game, but when facing Thurmond only averaged 20+, etc.

If you're talking about pounds and strength, some players have more pounds than Thurmond or stronger, e.g. Unseld, Wilt, etc.. but none of them can limit KAJ at that level...

I don't think it's fair to judge that Thurmond is better than Akeem directly simply just look at the stats, I need to put it to the context, how they matchups, the rules, etc, but if a 39 years old KAJ can constantly pour multiple 30+ or even 40+ on the Twin Towers and rookie Ewing more than once.., people start to lean to think that way..

Alex, I guess a 50-60 game "sample" is not big enough. Nor given the fact that Reed and Wilt...AND Kareem, himself, said that no one played them tougher defensively.

These "hypothetical" matchups have been debated for 40 years. But obviously, when a STATISTICALLY PRIME Kareem STRUGGLES to shoot much over 40% for 50 games against Thurmond, with very few 30+ point games, but could routinely pour in 30-40 point games against Hakeem...at age 39...I think that provides substantial evidence of just who the better defensive center was.

alexandreben

10-17-2010, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by jlauber
Didn't Russell have a longer wingspan than Kareem? And we KNOW that he was a much better leaper (Russell was a WORLD-CLASS high-jumper.) I don't see Kareem giving Russell nearly as many problems as Chamberlain did.

Indeed, apparently KAJ held a ball high above his head with one hand and Russell without raising on his toes was able to place his entire palm over the ball. However Nate Thurmond probably had the longest wingspan of all the top defensive centers.
I read this somewhere too, but I forgot where...

do you happen to have their wingspan figures, can you post it please?

jlauber

10-17-2010, 02:33 PM

I read this somewhere too, but I forgot where...

do you happen to have their wingspan figures, can you post it please?

I read it somewhere too, but in any case, the only player that could get up higher, in terms of an extended vertical leap than Russell, was Wilt. Both were reportedly capable of touching the top of the backboard. And while Russell had an edge in high-jump, Wilt's height and wingspan enabled him to outleap Russell.

Thurmond had a remarkable wingspan, too, but he was not nearly the leaper than Russell or Wilt were. He was a great combination of both, though. And it appears that only Wilt could put up some huge games on him. Unfortunately, Wilt's "scoring" seasons ended in '67, so there were only a handful of games in Wilt's prime against Thurmond.

Having said that, however, in that '67 season, when Hannum asked his team to pass inside to Wilt, in the second half of a game between the two, Chamberlain poured in 24 points (30 in all), with 26 rebounds, and 12 blocks. That was a PRIME Wilt, and it illustrates my point that Wilt could easily have scored 40 ppg in that '67 season (and probably on over 60% shooting.) IMHO, that was the most dominant season ever, by anyone.

alexandreben

10-17-2010, 03:06 PM

Alex, I guess a 50-60 game "sample" is not big enough. Nor given the fact that Reed and Wilt...AND Kareem, himself, said that no one played them tougher defensively.

These "hypothetical" matchups have been debated for 40 years. But obviously, when a STATISTICALLY PRIME Kareem STRUGGLES to shoot much over 40% for 50 games against Thurmond, with very few 30+ point games, but could routinely pour in 30-40 point games against Hakeem...at age 39...I think that provides substantial evidence of just who the better defensive center was.
Not to mention that's a "two knee surgery within three years" Thurmond whom Kareem battled with..

do we have any full footage of a prime Thurmond against KAJ?

alexandreben

10-17-2010, 03:09 PM

I read it somewhere too, but in any case, the only player that could get up higher, in terms of an extended vertical leap than Russell, was Wilt.
Wilt talked about Thurmond's top of the reach, even longer than Wilt himself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BDd7jM4zYs&t=0m47s

jlauber

10-17-2010, 04:13 PM

As great a defensive center as Thurmond was, and he was probably number three all-time, ...Wilt and Russell were the two best ever. Russell made his team's defense overwhelming, and Wilt was close. Think about this...Alex posted Thurmond's terrific games against Kareem in '72 and '73...and yet, Wilt was first team all-defense in both of those years. In fact, had their been a DPOY in '72, Chamberlain most certainly would have won it.

The entire defensive philosophy of the '72 (and '73) Lakers, was to funnel opposing players directly into Wilt. And while we don't have the actual blocked shot numbers, the majority of opinion now backs Wilt as the greatest shot-blocker of all-time.

So, Wilt was able to completely shut-down high-powered offensive centers...AND, dominate the paint against other opponents. There is some spectacular footage of Chamberlain's blocks out there, but in one, there is some taken from a Bucks-Lakers game in which Wilt blocks a Dandridge shot, an Oscar drive at the rim, and two of Kareem's shots (a sky-hook, and a reverse.)

And once again, while Russell and Thurmond did a solid job of "limiting" a prime Wilt (although neither could come close to shutting him down)...very few acknowledge that Chamberlain dramatically limited THEIR offense, as well.

As far as Thurmond's historical ranking. Having read this thread, I have come to rethink Nate's place in history. I always knew that he was a great player, but after reading this topic, I simply have to move him up much higher....especially among the great centers. The problem with Thurmond, though, is two-fold. One, he was often injured. And two, he has no rings, no MVPs, only one Finals appearance, and no statistical crowns. HOWEVER, he also played in the era of the greatest centers in NBA history. He went up against Hayes, Unseld, Cowens, Lanier, Bellamy, Reed, Lucas, McAdoo, Russell, Kareem, and Wilt...ALL in the HOF. Furthermore, his only "sin" was that he faced Russell's Celtics, Wilt's Sixers/Lakers, Reed's HOF-laden Knicks, and Kareem's Bucks. The fact was, he might be the 6th greatest center of all-time...but unfortunately for him, he was only the fourth best center of his own era.

ThaRegul8r

10-17-2010, 04:39 PM

And once again, while Russell and Thurmond did a solid job of "limiting" a prime Wilt (although neither could come close to shutting him down)...very few acknowledge that Chamberlain dramatically limited THEIR offense, as well.

Chamberlain's offense >>> Russell and Thurmond's offense. I would use Chamberlain on Kareem in the '72 WCF. Chamberlain's defense against another elite offensive center is a better example.

As far as Thurmond's historical ranking. Having read this thread, I have come to rethink Nate's place in history.

Unfortunately, he's been overlooked and has been lost in history as far as recognition goes.

The problem with Thurmond, though, is two-fold. One, he was often injured. And two, he has no rings, no MVPs, only one Finals appearance, and no statistical crowns.

He has no MVPs because Russell and Wilt dominated it. NO ONE won MVP over a prime Wilt/Russell other than Oscar Robertson in 1964. West never won MVP, Baylor never won MVP, etc. Thurmond did finish second in 1967.

He has no rings because Rick Barry bailed on him to play in the NBA. After they extended the 76ers to more games than any other team did in the 1967 playoffs, there was talk about the Warriors being a potential dynasty. 76ers' coach Alex Hannum said, "I think if you talk about dynasty in the next 10 years, the Warriors are the team to talk about." Nate Thurmond was being talked about as the heir-apparent for the best center in the league with Russell having exited his prime.

"If there was any doubt prior to this series that San Francisco's Nate Thurmond is Chamberlain's heir apparent as the league's best center, it was quickly dispelled." (Apr. 26, 1967)

The future was bright for the Warriors, but then Rick Barry made a verbal agreement that he would re-sign with the Warriors with Nate Thurmond, and Thurmond took him at his word and re-signed, but then Barry split for the ABA, leaving Thurmond by himself.

[QUOTE]Now that Rick Barry has been enticed from Frank Mieuli

MakeHistory78

10-17-2010, 04:42 PM

:
And :roll: at Wilt being more skilled than Hakeem.
Wilt was like Bob Cousy(to Magic).Very important for the next generations of the game.
He was the first center who used Fadeaway shot and finger roll.
Wilt was closed as a skilled player to Hakeem.Also he was better passer,scorer and defender.
And as a player Wilt>>>Hakeem and every center.He would destroy him.

About the thread.I watched Thurmond at some old games and his was a true warrior.He played against all the monsters of the 60's-70's.The three greatest centers.Wilt/Russell/KAJ.
He is underrated.But NBA people put him at the 50 greatest players back to 1997.They left out most famous players like Mcadoo and Dominique.But Nate was in.I agree with jlauber he is Top-3 ever Center defender.
And I'm not a very big fan of the 60's and 70's.I'm fan of 80's-90's and I could give more credit to Hakeem or Ewing.
But no.The three GOAT defenders are Russell/Wilt/Thurmond.
I consider also Wilt as the 2nd greatest player ever.MJ is the GOAT for me.

jlauber

10-17-2010, 06:55 PM

Wilt was like Bob Cousy(to Magic).Very important for the next generations of the game.
He was the first center who used Fadeaway shot and finger roll.
Wilt was closed as a skilled player to Hakeem.Also he was better passer,scorer and defender.
And as a player Wilt>>>Hakeem and every center.He would destroy him.

About the thread.I watched Thurmond at some old games and his was a true warrior.He played against all the monsters of the 60's-70's.The three greatest centers.Wilt/Russell/KAJ.
He is underrated.But NBA people put him at the 50 greatest players back to 1997.They left out most famous players like Mcadoo and Dominique.But Nate was in.I agree with jlauber he is Top-3 ever Center defender.
And I'm not a very big fan of the 60's and 70's.I'm fan of 80's-90's and I could give more credit to Hakeem or Ewing.
But no.The three GOAT defenders are Russell/Wilt/Thurmond.
I consider also Wilt as the 2nd greatest player ever.MJ is the GOAT for me.

Excellent post. As far as Wilt's skills go...he was a good outside shooter in the early year's of his career.

http://wiltfan.tripod.com/quotes.html

[Carl Braun said] "He [Wilt] disorganizes you under the basket the same way [as Bill Russell, on defense]. With Wilt, of course, there's that offense on top of it, which is better than Russell's. He hit on all those jumpers."
"Yes, Wilt hit on those jumpers...Wilt did come into the league with a good touch from the outside, which made his early scoring that much more significant. He wasn't just dunking the ball then."

--Red Holzman. A View from the Bench. P.70

Here is footage of his skills, as well. Take a close look at his jump shot at the free line early on. It looks nearly perfect. That was a great example of what he brought into the NBA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6k539HSbXM

Chamberlain's offense >>> Russell and Thurmond's offense. I would use Chamberlain on Kareem in the '72 WCF. Chamberlain's defense against another elite offensive center is a better example.

True, but here again, Wilt had regular season matchups with a prime Russell at his offensive best, where he held him to .398 shooting (and Russell shot a career high .467 that season.) He had post seasons where he held both Thurmond and Russell to nearly a 100 points under their regular season FG%. In the '68 playoffs, he held Bellamy to .421 shooting, and Bellamy had been at .541 during the regular season.

As great as Wilt was against Kareem in '71 and '72 playoffs (and in the '73 regular season), one can only wonder what a prime Chamberlain, circa '66 or '67, would have done at BOTH ends of the floor against him.