kg for odom + bynum..

[rezznor]

could it happen?

[LakersDynasty]

we wont give it up bynum yea boyyyyyyyyyy :banana: ooidm [pluds kwame mitght workkkk

[Se]

I wouldn't do it, it's a bad deal for the Lakers.
Bynum has a lot of potential.

Randy Foye would be the perfect fit on the Lakers though, infinitely better than that co__sucker Smush Parker.

[rezznor]

i doubt minnesota would give up kg unless bynum is dealt

[*Omni.Slasher*]

Lakers probably would have done it last year but now hell no they wouldnt.

[LakersDynasty]

[QUOTE=Se

[JSub]

If Lakers put that deal, they win the championship. Pure and simple. Which is exactly why I hope it never happens.

[rezznor]

how many years do u guys think kg has left? he's still relatively young, i dont know of any nagging injuries. a kobe+kg tandem can be pretty potent for the short run. they should try to win now.

edit. for the rockets sake, i hope that deal never happens as well.

[LakersDynasty]

i beg topy dieffer, no roiple plaeyes no chmapionsho;p :banana:

[hotsizzle]

If Lakers put that deal, they win the championship. Pure and simple. Which is exactly why I hope it never happens.

Jsub, what happened? a few weeks ago, you said you actually enjoyed the lakers and that you're from LA...was it too much delusional fans that ruined it for you or are you not likn the way they're playing:confusedshrug:

[Se]

fixed., :banana:

Fantabulous

[LakersDynasty]

Woewe lpook at himg oooo >>>>>> :banana:
I wanna get up and jhon ihim.

[hotsizzle]

how many years do u guys think kg has left? he's still relatively young, i dont know of any nagging injuries. a kobe+kg tandem can be pretty potent for the short run. they should try to win now.

edit. for the rockets sake, i hope that deal never happens as well.

I think KG will last till about 35, 36..then you will see a major decline. why that long? well, he takes good care of his body and is not only athletic but mad skilled. He'll be effective for a while, its not guaranteed but thats just my personal opinion

If Lakers start to somewhat struggle, I think they may pull something like this; because I doubt they want to have a prime Kobe on a struggling team.

As for now, they are looking good and ready to be considered elite legit contenders in a yr or two..so I doubt they would wanna blow that up...and personally, I dont think they should anyways....another part of me though cant even begin to imagine what a kobe/kg combo would do:bowdown:

[Se]

L.A. Lakers trade:
Lamar Odom
Kwame Brown
Andrew Bynum
Aaron McKie

Minnesota trade:
Kevin Garnett
Randy Foye
Eddie Griffin

That would be a fair trade for both.

[JSub]

Jsub, what happened? a few weeks ago, you said you actually enjoyed the lakers and that you're from LA...was it too much delusional fans that ruined it for you or are you not likn the way they're playing:confusedshrug:

Yes, delusional fans ruined it for me once again. Sorry, I tried this time. I really did. :confusedshrug:

But they're doing well, so I'm happy for ya!

[rezznor]

minnesota gets raped that deal imo

edit. refering to cedric

[Y2Gezee]

Lakers would be wise to do it. Kwame is IMO a better player than Bynum right now. Kwame needs to be given back his spot. 8 and 7 in 24min plus a block and a steal. Kwame next to KG is pretty damn good, and Bynum's going to be good, but not exactly good enough to pass up on KG

Giving up both Kwame and Drew for KG and Foye is fair for both sides though, but I don't really think Foye and Kwame need be in the deal.

[Se]

minnesota gets raped that deal imo

edit. refering to cedric

Griffin isn't anything more than a drunk *********or.

Foye isn't even a 'blip' on the ROY map.

Kwame, Bynum and Odom are a whole new front court to give Minny a lineup of:
CT: Andrew Bynum/ Mark Blount
PF: Kwame Brown/ Craig Smith
SF: Lamar Odom/ Trenton Hassell
SG: Ricky Davis/ Marko Jaric
PG: Mike James/ Troy Hudson

And McCants.

Lakers go with:
CT: Chris Mihm/ Eddie Griffin/ Ronny Turiaf
PF: Kevin Garnett/ Brian Cook
SF: Luke Walton/ Vladimir Radmanovic
SG: Kobe Bryant/ Maurice Evans
PG: Randy Foye/ Smush Parker

[Semiprocappa]

No way the Lakers will give up both Bynum and Brown.

Odom and Bynum OR Brown for KG is what will go down if anything actually happens.

[Y2Gezee]

This would be an interesting deal and probably put LA up there with the Mavs and Spurs as the elite (sorry Im not buying into the Jazz yet, maybe soon though). However, I really want the East to get KG, they need all the help they can get.

[eboloid]

Speaking of Utah, imagine if the Lakers had pulled the trigger on one of those Boozer deals that were talked about last year. Now that he's healthy, Bynum/Boozer/Luke/Kobe/whatever looks pretty nice.

Good thing I'm not a Laker fan, I'd be a little upset.

[FPower]

Boozer's only been healthy for 12 games or so. I'll believe he's going to last all season when I see it.

[hotsizzle]

Speaking of Utah, imagine if the Lakers had pulled the trigger on one of those Boozer deals that were talked about last year. Now that he's healthy, Bynum/Boozer/Luke/Kobe/whatever looks pretty nice.

Good thing I'm not a Laker fan, I'd be a little upset.

Odom fits our system better. and Boozer has only been this good for 14 games.

[ManUtd]

I'd do it...

I'd trade Odom and Bynum for Garnett. Bynum, not Kwame..since the goal would be to win now.

Farmar
Kobe
Walton
Garnett
Kwame

Yup....That's 3 rings in a row..at least.

[HaNdLe ThE RoCk]

Farmar
Kobe
Walton
Garnett
Kwame

Yup....That's 3 rings in a row..at least.




That's not 3 rings in a row to me, you lack a pg, sf and c still.

Wheres Smush?

[Bond007]

Not sure if i would trade Odom and Bynum for KG. They look like the future and damn young at that

[geeWiz15]

if the Lakers don't do that deal whoever is responsible for turning it down should be fired, drawn, and quartered.

[HaNdLe ThE RoCk]

last year whoever thought bynum and odom would equal KG?

if lakers turned down that deal then i think they are idiots..

KG and Kobe would bring crazyyy

[SoCalMike]

[quote=Se

[Y2Gezee]

I doubt this ever happens though. I would love to see KG in NJ for RJ and possibly Kristic.

[biisak]

You

[WoGiTaLiA1]

I think KG will last till about 35, 36..then you will see a major decline. why that long? well, he takes good care of his body and is not only athletic but mad skilled.

Why? His biggest weakness is his lack of strength, and thats the last thing to go. When KG starts losing his quickness he will decline fairly rapidly, he already seems a step slower from the knee injury he played through last year. I guess the closest thing to him for me is Webber and has fallen off ridiculously quickly.

As for the trade... if Cupcake turned down any offer from Minny that didnt involve Kobe he should be shot. He has already butchered a title contender, if he didnt take KG for the entire damn team outside of Kobe he is stupider than even I thought possible and I rate him at the same level as Isiah. If LA can get KG, they do it. Bynum looks solid but you give up someone who is young and looks solid(Curry looked solid also, Kandiman looked solid) for a legit superstar.

[TheBynumProject]

Lakers will NEVER agree to put Bynum in a KG deal. He could be the best center in the L, along with Yao, for a long time. Plus, he makes like 1/50 of KG's salary. No deal.

[rezznor]

Lakers will NEVER agree to put Bynum in a KG deal. He could be the best center in the L, along with Yao, for a long time. Plus, he makes like 1/50 of KG's salary. No deal.


bynum wont make the lakers contenders for several more years, if at all (he still has to live up to his potential). kg makes the lakers a contender now. dont forget kobe will just get older while waiting for bynum to mature.

[wang4three]

In this day and age, you overpay for superstars like Kevin Garnett. Odom and Bynum? I love Andrew cause he's a NJ product, but you're gonna have to throw in picks in there.

EDIT: Well that's ofcourse, you're the Nets and you get Vince Carter for Eric Williams and trash.

[Loki]

That's not 3 rings in a row to me, you lack a pg, sf and c still.


That's not good enough? :roll: Lakers need studs at every position to win! lol

[TheBynumProject]

Lakers should not trade Bymun for anybody. He is huge, young, and very talented.

[AKADS]

The Wolves won't trade KG unless they get rid of a few of there bad contracts, They won't want Odom cause you never know which player you will get. A good start to a season doesn't make him a superstar. Bynum has potential but isn't worth giving up KG for.

The Wolves will only deal KG if it helps them deal with there Cap number and bring some more youth in. Laker fans need to stop over thinking there players cause its facking annoying.

And I have never seen Phil want to do a deal during the season. KG would not be able to get into the triangle in time for this yrs playoffs.

[braden.]

What are the chances that Bynum is ever as good as Garnett (an all-time great) is now?

[TheBynumProject]

Bynum is a special talent. A rare, special talent.

[ManUtd]

Bynum will be a good center...15-8.

[crisoner]

I would love KG...but at this point I want to keep Bynum. Odom...maybe...but I really like the guy in LA.

So KG....sorry man. We don't need ya.

[FabCasablancas]

Kobe doesn't want a player as good as KG on his team.. same reason he didn't want Dirk on his team when Shaq was traded. Same reason he didn't want Caron Butler on his team. Same reason he won't let Odom shoot.

Kobe's self destructive. He wants to go down in flames. Playing with KG would be smart.. which is why Kobe won't do it.

[*Omni.Slasher*]

Lakers are looking solid right now along with great chemstry. It's not like they will be instant contenders even with KG. In the east yes but in the west no.

PG: Smush :roll:
SG: Kobe
SF: Walton
PF: KG
C Kwame

[ALBballer]

Can Mihm be traded? If so be a nice expirer for the T-Wolves.

[braden.]

Bynum is a special talent. A rare, special talent.
Right, and Kevin Garnett isn't?

[SoCalMike]

Right, and Kevin Garnett isn't?

I don't think that was the point of his comment....


:pimp:

[SleepyCorpse]

Kobe = Jordan
Odom = Pippen
Bynum = Adbul Jabbar

sounds familiar...

[artest 93]

Kobe = Jordan
Odom = Pippen
Bynum = Adbul Jabbar

sounds familiar...

I don't think so. Odom = Pippen? Bynum = Abdul Jabbar? Ha Ha. Even the lakers fans here shouldn't agree. The only half-baked arguable one is kobe = jordan and even that is to a great extent, far-fetched.

Lakers are doing good right now. I want to watch kobe in the finals again and hopefully he will take over and not do the "hero" by ditching out assists. It should be obvious that Kobe is most valuable when scoring because I think he can do it at will.

Why do people act like Andrew Bynum is sooo great? It's only been 12 games or so. He is good but don't say "Sorry garnett is not worth it". Let me be 1-2 seasons and that would be reasonable. But i'll laugh when the offseason comes adn people say "we should of traded bynum" haha. Well, I hope the lakers get really good again. Kobe is a great player to watch and I'm sure many of countless Lakers fans are only a lakers fan because of Kobe.

Also, the #8 was much better.

And since I am a fan of Ron Artest and have watched many Sacramento games, if we judge everyone's potential by what they have done so far, Kevin Martin should be one of the best in the league? Averaging 25ppg under 15 fg attempts, at 55% fg, 50% 3-point fg, 91% ft. Assuming that keeps up...wow?

[saKf]

Garnett getting mad hate in this thread.

[JSub]

Kobe = Jordan
Odom = Pippen
Bynum = Adbul Jabbar

sounds familiar...

Uh.....no.

[KobeLookLike2Pac]

Rocket fans hate Bynum because they know there is a good chance he will eclipse Yao in 2 years if not next year. It should be interesting on how they match up this year, but I think PJ will let Kwame bully him up most of the game because Yao becomes unglued a little when he's pushed around.

[Loki]

Rocket fans hate Bynum because they know there is a good chance he will eclipse Yao in 2 years if not next year. It should be interesting on how they match up this year, but I think PJ will let Kwame bully him up most of the game because Yao becomes unglued a little when he's pushed around.

If Bynum "eclipses" (strong word, keep in mind) the Yao Ming of this season and the second half of last season, that'd make him better than Kobe. Why can't Kobe win without a player better than him? Why can't he win without a dominant big man? :confusedshrug:

[saKf]

Rocket fans hate Bynum because they know there is a good chance he will eclipse Yao in 2 years if not next year.
What?

Yao is a 26 and 10 player who can stay in late in games because he shoots 85% from the line. He's battling Duncan for the title of best post player in the league right now. How do you see Bynum accomplishing that in the next two seasons?

[JSub]

Rocket fans hate Bynum because they know there is a good chance he will eclipse Yao in 2 years if not next year. It should be interesting on how they match up this year, but I think PJ will let Kwame bully him up most of the game because Yao becomes unglued a little when he's pushed around.

:roll:

Talk about delusional. Bynum gets hate b/c of Laker groupies who hail him as the second coming of Kareem. And now you're saying Kwame can guard Yao Ming by bullying him? RIIIIIGHHT...if it were THAT easy, the guy wouldnt be averaging 27/10/2. If it were that easy, he wouldnt have lit Shaq up for 34/16.

Bynum is nowhere near Yao's league. If he were to eclipse Yao in 2 years, that would make Bynum the best center in the league. Better than Dwight Howard, mind you.

[KobeLookLike2Pac]

If Bynum "eclipses" (strong word, keep in mind) the Yao Ming of this season and the second half of last season, that'd make him better than Kobe. Why can't Kobe win without a player better than him? Why can't he win without a dominant big man? :confusedshrug:


You are right, Kobe can't win **** without a big man better than him. If you expected an argument, you won't find one here.


The sad thing is that at least he has been able to win with a great big man while Yao can't win with a talented guard, TMac can't win with a talented big, and they both definitely can't win by themselves. :roll: In other words they are both DOOMED!

[KobeLookLike2Pac]

Bynum is nowhere near Yao's league. If he were to eclipse Yao in 2 years, that would make Bynum the best center in the league. Better than Dwight Howard, mind you.

Dwight will be better than Yao by next year when his soft ass starts to be exposed and Bynum will be better than Yao in a couple of years. At that time Yao will be lucky to be the 3rd best center in the league. But right now Yao needs to focus on Zach Randolph, him and Yao are pretty much neck and neck.

[JSub]

Dwight will be better than Yao by next year when his soft ass starts to be exposed and Bynum will be better than Yao in a couple of years. At that time Yao will be lucky to be the 3rd best center in the league. But right now Yao needs to focus on Zach Randolph, him and Yao are pretty much neck and neck.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[rezznor]

Dwight will be better than Yao by next year when his soft ass starts to be exposed and Bynum will be better than Yao in a couple of years. At that time Yao will be lucky to be the 3rd best center in the league. But right now Yao needs to focus on Zach Randolph, him and Yao are pretty much neck and neck.


wassup smokee, how are ya

[Loki]

You are right, Kobe can't win **** without a big man better than him. If you expected an argument, you won't find one here.



At least you're honest. I give you credit for that. Personally, I think Kobe can win one more ring without a dominant big or a player better than he is, but not more than one more ring. Hell, he already has a solid center rotation (18.1 pts/14.1 reb/2.6 blks between Bynum and Brown).

[KobeLookLike2Pac]

At least you're honest. I give you credit for that.


True but I am also not a fan of Kobe.

[Loki]

True but I am also not a fan of Kobe.

Oh, hah. That explains it, then. :D No Laker/Kobe fan would ever admit as much, imo.

[West-Side]

I wouldn't give up Odom & Bynum LAST season, let alone this season for any player in this league. Bynum has the potential to be a dominant center in this league, a Shaquille type of player...he has great upside, he should be untouchable. Kid is only 19 and is showing signs of greatness.

25/15/5/3 from this kid in 3 years....on 55% shooting.

[Loki]

I wouldn't give up Odom & Bynum LAST season, let alone this season for any player in this league. Bynum has the potential to be a dominant center in this league, a Shaquille type of player...he has great upside, he should be untouchable. Kid is only 19 and is showing signs of greatness.

25/15/5/3 from this kid in 3 years....on 55% shooting.

So better than Kobe? Why can't Kobe win without a dominant big man? Why can't he win without a player better than he is? :confusedshrug:

[West-Side]

So better than Kobe? Why can't Kobe win without a dominant big man? Why can't he win without a player better than he is?

:confusedshrug: Where you're going with it, your post is beyond going nowhere...stick to numbers.

I didn't even mention Kobe, yet it's the "groupies" that always bring him into discussions.


Why do you always root against the Lakers, can't you stick to a team....everytime I'm here talking about a Laker game, you're whinning about how LA are lucky and sh*t...don't you have a team that you root for, are you Knoe Itawl? He seems to have the same approach on this message board. Or AAP, maybe you're all 3.

[West-Side]

The reason your post is beyond retarded is Kobe had 2 years to lead a team with absolutely no inside presence in a tough conference filled with big man. Kobe just like your idol Jordan couldn't lead a team unless that team had talent, just like any other great player in the past.

[Darius]

I think it is fair for both sides.

The Lakers should do it IMO... Kobe + Garnett is a dream pairing. That's a championship IMO.

[lakers-city]

So better than Kobe? Why can't Kobe win without a dominant big man? Why can't he win without a player better than he is? :confusedshrug:

garnett isnt better than kobe, :stupid: at that suggestion.

[lakers-city]

The reason your post is beyond retarded is Kobe had 2 years to lead a team with absolutely no inside presence in a tough conference filled with big man. Kobe just like your idol Jordan couldn't lead a team unless that team had talent, just like any other great player in the past.

you arent comparing frigging scottie pippen with shaq, right ? :wtf:

[Darius]

Bynum is getting overrated like a mofo in this thread.

He will be a nice player... but an all-time great like KG?? It's way too early to make that judgement.

I wouldn't even say the same about Dwight Howard and he has shown way more.

Plus Bynum is still a few years away from being an offensive big man... Kobe only has about a 2-3 year window left.

KG is ready to go now.

[vert48]

By Bill Simmons
Page 2

Editor's note: This article appears in the Dec. 4 issue of ESPN The Magazine.

Kevin Garnett should have flipped out by now. And I'm not talking about a simple tantrum. Why isn't he acting more disruptively than the schoolkids in "The Wire?" He should arrive for home games wearing a sweatshirt that reads I HATE IT HERE. He should give Dwane Casey the nickname Expletive Deleted. He should call Marko Jaric, Ricky Davis and Mark Blount Loser No. 1, Loser No. 2 and Loser No. 3 and refer to Kevin McHale only as the Guy Who Ruined My Life. He should be looking to get whistled for a "flagrant nine" foul and lying on scorers' tables on the road praying for a drunken spectator to lob a beer at him so he can break out his best Artest moves. He should hire Sam Cassell and Latrell Sprewell impersonators to go with him everywhere, just so he can tell anyone who asks that he wants a reminder of the one season when he didn't want to kill somebody.

All right, that last idea is a little ridiculous -- no one on the planet could begin to resemble either Cassell or Spree -- but you get the picture. KG's basketball career has become a borderline American tragedy. Here's one of the greatest big men ever, one of the fiercest competitors in any sport, someone who could finish his career with historic scoring and rebounding numbers ... and yet we have absolutely no clue how good he really is. He's played with, by my count, only six quality players in his 12 seasons: Joe Smith, Stephon Marbury, Terrell Brandon, Cassell, Sprewell and Wally Szczerbiak. His only "decent" coach was Flip Saunders, who is currently running the Pistons into the ground. The guy making the player moves has always been the memorably incompetent McHale, and KG's only owner, Glen Taylor, famously squandered four first-rounders by illegally negotiating Smith's ill-conceived, cap-violating contract.

How badly has this team been mismanaged? It hasn't drafted a quality starter in seven seasons. It essentially traded Cassell for Jaric and threw in a first-round pick. It has surrounded KG with career losers and bad-attitude guys like Davis, Blount, Troy Hudson and Eddie Griffin. If there's a master plan, it seems to be: "Let's kill our cap space, squander as many picks as possible and see if KG snaps." If you remove Mark Madsen from the current roster, KG has more career playoff minutes than everyone else combined.

He isn't a young dude anymore, either. Do you realize he's 30? That this is his 12th season? That he has played more than 900 NBA games (including playoffs)? KG might be 30, but if NBA years were like dog years, he'd be, well, pretty damn old.

It's impossible not to feel sorry for him. Always one of the most intense players in the league, Garnett's emotion has morphed into something much more grim, as if he's fighting the urge to pull a Kermit Washington on someone, anyone. Seeing him in person, you can practically hear the clock ticking, like he's an aging single woman with rumbling ovaries. You can see the desperation on his face, the frustration, and almost hear the anguished inner monologue: "My career is wasting away." He's the most tragic figure in the league, a superstar buried on a perpetually impotent team, a loyal player who can't stand losing but is stuck with selfish guys and keeps finding himself walking off in defeat. His saga is the saddest subplot of the 2006-07 season.

And few fans seem to give a crap.

Well, I give a crap. To be fair, though, I don't care as much about KG as I do about his place in history. I want to know how good he is. Don't we need an answer? After old friend Paul Shirley was released by the Timberwolves before the start of the season, he sent me a gushing e-mail about KG's everyday brilliance that said if KG had played on a contender his entire career, "people would speak of him as a candidate for best player ever." Will that end up being KG's legacy: the coulda-shoulda-woulda star who ended up the Ernie Banks or Barry Sanders of basketball?

I can't help thinking that in one sense he deserves some of the blame. Yes, he's one of the best power forwards ever. I rank him fourth, behind Tim Duncan, Charles Barkley and Karl Malone, and just ahead of McHale and D.C. from Fast Break. And we know he can produce in the clutch from that monster 2004 MVP season that culminated in a sublime 32-point, 21-rebound Game 7 against the Kings. We can also agree, his career would have been different if he had somehow switched places with Duncan.

But maybe KG is too passionate for his own good. By all accounts, he's so wound up before games, it affects everyone around him; he wouldn't even allow anyone to listen to music in the locker room before Cassell arrived. He's not above punching teammates in practices. And he's famous for yelping ferociously after big plays, clenching his fists and screaming toward the ceiling like a WWE wrestler. He's never learned to adapt his game to the situation; he plays the same in a mid-November blowout and a deciding playoff game, which explains why he seemed spent during the 2004 conference finals against the Lakers. That was his longest season by far -- seven months and exactly 100 games -- and in classic KG fashion, he averaged 24-14-5 in the regular season and an almost identical 24-15-5 in the playoffs. Superstars like Duncan know when to dominate and when to keep something in reserve for big moments. KG plays only in fifth gear. Of course, that nonstop fervor has always been his most admirable quality, right up there with his insistence on passing out of double- and triple-teams (even if he's finding crummy outside shooters and inadvertently hurting his chances). Along with Steve Nash, he's the ultimate team player. Which makes this whole thing such a shame. I watched the Timberwolves lose on consecutive nights recently and realized two things. First, they don't have an above-average player other than KG. And second, KG's body language, especially after Peja Stojakovic's game-winning three, makes him seem almost resigned to his fate, like an unhappy husband who can't stomach the thought of a divorce because he doesn't want to hurt his children. It's depressing to watch.

In his shoes, maybe you or I would have sabotaged our situation already, but that's what is great about KG: Instead of quitting on a lost cause to force Minnesota's hand, he just keeps busting his butt and waiting to be saved.

And that's why someone needs to save him. For the good of the league, David Stern needs to "nudge" McHale and Taylor to make a move. Trade the man to the Bulls or the Clippers or the Lakers, all of whom have the right combination of young players and picks to make a palatable exchange. Stick Garnett in a big market with quality teammates and see what happens. We need to see what he can really do, and so does he.

Whether he wants to admit it or not.

[lakers-city]

i would go for howard over garnett.

[West-Side]

you arent comparing frigging scottie pippen with shaq, right ?

Scottie Pippen, Horace Grant, BJ Armstrong, Tony Kokuc, Dennis Rodman, Ron Harper...that's the talent Jordan had when he started winning, both Grant and BJ made all-star team when Jordan was playing baseball...tell me in the past 2 years how many all-stars Kobe had?

Zero...none, zilch...Shaquille was obviously better then Pippen, hence I said if Jordan played with a prime Shaq he wouldn't be the number 1 option....unless you're an idiot of a coach who won't utilize Shaquille fully...Jordan had a more rounded team then Kobe when he won his titles with Shaquille. I hate comparing the two scenarios, because there are alot of uncomparable elements.

[Se]

1. BJ Armstrong may have made the Allstar team, but he's probably the least talented and least deserving allstar ever.

2. Bill Simmons is the best basketball writer at ESPN.

3. Kevin Garnett needs the losses to build up before the trade deadline, so he can get shipped sooner rather than later, meaning the TWolves will most likely get screwed over. The franchise deserves to wallow in mediocrity. Which leads me to my next point......

4. Kevin McHale is a moron. How someone can not add quality talent around the most admirable talent in the entire league is beyond me. He could have added any number of solid players to the rotation over the years. Most recently he could have tried for the likes of Vince Carter, or maybe a Steve Francis.

[SoCalMike]

i would go for howard over garnett.

Agreed... he's young and has great upside to say the least.


:pimp:

[LA.MJ&KB#1]

Keep Bynum he will be a great player.. You would be able to build a team around him. Kobe, will play for another 7 years a least...So win now or win later its ok with me because I will always be a laker fan.

[Loki]

garnett isnt better than kobe, :stupid: at that suggestion.

Hmm? Kobe has been better than Kobe for all of one season. KG has been better than Kobe for 6 seasons prior to that. KG has had, by far, the more impressive individual career (counting statistics/individual accomplishments, not rings). Hence, KG is better than Kobe. If you want to only count last season (when I admit Kobe > KG), then why not count this season, when KG > Kobe by quite a bit? Sorry, but one season doesn't make Kobe > Garnett overall.



The reason your post is beyond retarded is Kobe had 2 years to lead a team with absolutely no inside presence in a tough conference filled with big man

There's a difference between having an "inside presence" and having a 25/15/5/3 big man. Why does he need the latter and not just the former? He has an inside presence right now with Kwame and Bynum (14.1 pts/18.1 reb/2.6 blk between them). Of course everyone needs help to win, but why does Kobe need a dominant (not just serviceable, like he has now) big man?


And then, even when some Laker fans talk about having, say, KG and Kobe on the same team, they still want more! They talk about how weak their PG and SF positions are. Apparently they feel that the only way they can win is to have studs at every position, as if all championship teams have/had that luxury. :rolleyes:

[lakers-city]

Hmm? Kobe has been better than Kobe for all of one season. KG has been better than Kobe for 6 seasons prior to that. KG has had, by far, the more impressive individual career (counting statistics/individual accomplishments, not rings). Hence, KG is better than Kobe. If you want to only count last season (when I admit Kobe > KG), then why not count this season, when KG > Kobe by quite a bit? Sorry, but one season doesn't make Kobe > Garnett overall.



yeah, better individual numbers on losing teams who miss the playoffs or get blown away in the 1st round, why discount kobe's rings and playoffs success ? because it clearly makes him better than garnett ? rings and playoffs success is what makes duncan and shaq better than garnett as well, not their numbers.

[vert48]

[QUOTE=Se

[04mzwach]

no trades are happening with KG in 'em this season for sure.

[Loki]

yeah, better individual numbers on losing teams who miss the playoffs or get blown away in the 1st round, why discount kobe's rings and playoffs success ? because it clearly makes him better than garnett ? rings and playoffs success is what makes duncan and shaq better than garnett as well, not their numbers.

Because KG didn't have Shaq. What sort of postseason success has Kobe had post-Shaq? KG has led his team further than Kobe has as the #1 guy. That's why I discount it.

And you're wrong -- both Duncan and Shaq had more statistically impressive careers than KG, and both have more accomplishments (beyond rings) to boot. So no, it's not just their championships which make them better than KG. And lol @ "losing teams" -- Garnett, prior to last year, did not have a losing season since 1997, his second year in the league. In addition, he's won 50+ games 4 times, including 58 games one year and a trip to the WCF. Kobe has notched seasons of 34 and 45 wins as the leader of his team thus far.


Kobe has not had the more impressive individual career. He has had (slightly) the more impressive overall career than Garnett, because of his 3 rings. But last season -- the one season where Kobe was better than Garnett individually -- does not negate 6 of the last 7 years where KG > Kobe individually.

[TheBynumProject]

Bill Simmons is the best basketball writer at ESPN

For sure. Big fan of his. He really loves the game.

[lakers-city]

Because KG didn't have Shaq. What sort of postseason success has Kobe had post-Shaq? KG has led his team further than Kobe has as the #1 guy. That's why I discount it.

And you're wrong -- both Duncan and Shaq had more statistically impressive careers than KG, and both have more accomplishments (beyond rings) to boot. So no, it's not just their championships which make them better than KG. And lol @ "losing teams" -- Garnett, prior to last year, did not have a losing season since 1997, his second year in the league. In addition, he's won 50+ games 4 times, including 58 games one year and a trip to the WCF. Kobe has notched seasons of 34 and 45 wins as the leader of his team thus far.


Kobe has not had the more impressive individual career. He has had (slightly) the more impressive overall career than Garnett, because of his 3 rings. But last season -- the one season where Kobe was better than Garnett individually -- does not negate 6 of the last 7 years where KG > Kobe individually.

ok, the shaq reason, allright, why no mention of kobe having absolutely no talent around him AT ALL and leading the lakers singlehandedly to the post season ? the year kg got past the 1st round (finally !!) he had cassell and spreewell who were playing great, hell cassell is still playing great, and when cassell went down injured the wolves didnt advance any further, coincidence ? :confusedshrug:

[hotsizzle]

Because KG didn't have Shaq. What sort of postseason success has Kobe had post-Shaq? KG has led his team further than Kobe has as the #1 guy. That's why I discount it.

And you're wrong -- both Duncan and Shaq had more statistically impressive careers than KG, and both have more accomplishments (beyond rings) to boot. So no, it's not just their championships which make them better than KG. And lol @ "losing teams" -- Garnett, prior to last year, did not have a losing season since 1997, his second year in the league. In addition, he's won 50+ games 4 times, including 58 games one year and a trip to the WCF. Kobe has notched seasons of 34 and 45 wins as the leader of his team thus far.


Kobe has not had the more impressive individual career. He has had (slightly) the more impressive overall career than Garnett, because of his 3 rings. But last season -- the one season where Kobe was better than Garnett individually -- does not negate 6 of the last 7 years where KG > Kobe individually.

this is the arguement i hate when we're talking about kobe. magic had kareem. jordan had pippen. bird had mchale. shaq had kobe. but for some reason, the other second fiddles (kareem, Pippen, mchale) get more credit and you hear people saying well, put iverson with shaq and it equates to 3 rings.

I agree with the last statment though..if kobe and kg were to retire today, kobe would be ranked higher.

[rezznor]

people don't try to annoint pippen and mchale as the best in the league like they do for kobe. kobe is better then them tho.

[lakers-city]

yeah but some people give more credit to those players than they do with kobe, when its obvious kobe was a much better 2nd option than they were.

[rezznor]

i agree that kobe is a better second option then mchale and pippen, not so sure about kareem. he's still not on jordan's level though noone is yet. (lebron and kobe being the closest)

[lakers-city]

when kareem was "the man" he was flat out better than kobe and even shaq for that matter, but on kareem's late years when he was the 3rd option behind magic and worthy he wasnt nearly on kobe's level because of his age.

[hotsizzle]

i agree that kobe is a better second option then mchale and pippen, not so sure about kareem. he's still not on jordan's level though noone is yet. (lebron and kobe being the closest)

I agree with that

[miles berg]

The Lakers would be crazy to turn down KG for Odom/Bynum.

What are the odds that Bynum is ever as good as Zydrunas Ilagauskas? Bynum is a solid prospect that has never had higher trade value. The Lakers would be an elite team with Kobe and KG, immediately up there with the Mavs and Spurs.

[kobedaman24]

Lakers will never send both Odom and Bynum, the futures of this team. They'll send Odom, Vujacic, 1st or 2nd rounder. MAYBE

[magicmanfan]

Money wise the lakers have to send LO7 and Kwame Brown. Add
a first round pick. I can't see the Lakers giving up Bynum rather
than the pick. Two starting forwards for KG and a pick are enough,
no way we give them two forwards and a center.

[traditionone]

Andrew Bynum is the youngest player in the league. He's a young center who's improved by leaps and bounds. He is just starting to learn how to play and he's already the Lakers' best center. Teams are starving for great, or even good centers. The Lakers can't trade him. It's nothing against KG. Andrew Bynum is a rare asset, a young center who is good and who can be great. If he continues to improve at the rate he is, Mitch would a fool to trade him away.

KG is going to be the highest paid player in the league. It's a lot of money to take on for a player with a lot of miles on his legs. If there's a paycut involved down the line, then it's fine. Odom's contract is pretty good. He won't make 15 mill a year, even in the last year of his deal.

If the Lakers are going to do a blockbuster trade, it will involve Odom and Kwame, because Bynum's rapid development makes Kwame expendable. That's enough money to get KG.

Here is another thing to consider. Will getting KG fix what is broken with the Lakers? He will put up better numbers than Odom. They lose a good interior defender in Kwame Brown. Bynum is improving in that area. KG would help Bynum defend the paint. But getting an upgrade at the 4 (KG to replace Odom) does not fix their most pressing need (PG). Smush ain't cutting it. Jordan Farmar will be the starting point guard by the end of the year because I can't see Phil Jackson sticking with Smush Parker. When that happens, the Lakers will improve because they will have a playmaker at the point who won't fall asleep on the defensive end of the floor. If Radmanovic's hand gets better, they will have a scorer to come off the bench. KG isn't a 3 point shooter and the Lakers need consistent outside shooters. There are needs more pressing than finding a superstar to take Lamar Odom's place.

The Lakers need to stick with the guys they have now. They won't win the title, but the solution to their problems are on the roster right now. Don't sacrifice the future for potential present success.

[kobedaman24]

Money wise the lakers have to send LO7 and Kwame Brown. Add
a first round pick. I can't see the Lakers giving up Bynum rather
than the pick. Two starting forwards for KG and a pick are enough,
no way we give them two forwards and a center.
Yeah, we might even make the pick a 2nd rounder instead of a first to make it more even.

[miles berg]

I understand that you guys like Bynum alot, Id love to have him in Dallas, every team in the league would love to have him off their bench.

But what if he never fully develops? Dwight Howard was a sure thing 10 games into his career, you knew THEN that he would beast the NBA. But Bynum has shown flashes of being good but has never shown much to say that he will amount to more than former All Star Ilgauskas.

Forgetting salary, assuming you had Big Z on your team, would you not trade Odom and Big Z for KG? I would. Don't get caught up too much in age.

[traditionone]

I understand that you guys like Bynum alot, Id love to have him in Dallas, every team in the league would love to have him off their bench.

But what if he never fully develops? Dwight Howard was a sure thing 10 games into his career, you knew THEN that he would beast the NBA. But Bynum has shown flashes of being good but has never shown much to say that he will amount to more than former All Star Ilgauskas.

Forgetting salary, assuming you had Big Z on your team, would you not trade Odom and Big Z for KG? I would. Don't get caught up too much in age.

Age is a huge factor. You can't disregard Bynum's young age. Also, he has good work ethic. He works hard to improve and we've seen the fruits of his labor. Ilgauskas is not a good example. He's an aging center with a big contract. Let's say Bynum develops into a player similar to Ilgauskas. Bad example, but I'll go with it. Would you trade Odom and a 19 year old Big Z for an aging KG?

[LakersDynasty]

I guess people are hesitant on Bynum because they see him as our starting center for the next 12-15 years while Garnett would start declining in 2-3 years. If we don't win now with Garnett it's a complete waste if we give away Bynum. Also giving up Odom hurts, I guess it's too much of a risk to send two of your 3 best players for years to come for KG and try to win now and start rebuilding after he's gone. With Bynum and Odom we have more insurance for the future.

With that being said though I'd give up Odom/Kwame for KG but Bynum is untradable at this point IMO.

[Loki]

ok, the shaq reason, allright, why no mention of kobe having absolutely no talent around him AT ALL and leading the lakers singlehandedly to the post season ?

The point is that KG did that for several seasons. "The Shaq reason" was to counter your ludicrous claim that Kobe's postseason success from '00-'04 is enough to propel him ahead of Garnett as an individual player. It's not. Kobe was unquestionably better than KG last season individually, but KG was better than Kobe individually from '99-'05, and is again better than him this season (if that will remain true when Kobe returns to 100% form remains to be seen). How does one season negate KG's sustained individual dominance over the course of 7 seasons?



the year kg got past the 1st round (finally !!) he had cassell and spreewell who were playing great, hell cassell is still playing great, and when cassell went down injured the wolves didnt advance any further, coincidence ? :confusedshrug:

Has Kobe gotten past the first round as the leader of his team?



this is the arguement i hate when we're talking about kobe. magic had kareem. jordan had pippen. bird had mchale. shaq had kobe. but for some reason, the other second fiddles (kareem, Pippen, mchale) get more credit and you hear people saying well, put iverson with shaq and it equates to 3 rings.


I personally don't give Pippen any more credit for his rings than I give Kobe; in fact, I've stated before that I feel that Kobe was a better #2 than Pippen. Pippen gets more credit in that regard simply because he has 6 championships as opposed to 3, not because he was more valuable to Chicago's success than Kobe was to LA's.


I brought up Shaq for the reasons stated above, not to diminish Kobe's accomplishments in any way. I just don't see how someone can use Kobe's rings as evidence of him being a better player than Garnett while neglecting to mention that he had the good fortune of playing with a top 10 all-time player in his absolute prime while KG was running with Troy Hudson and Kandiman.

[eliteballer]

Jordan never won without an All-Star caliber bigman who could play some of the best post defense in the L(Ho Grant, Rodman).

[Loki]

Jordan never won without an All-Star caliber bigman who could play some of the best post defense in the L(Ho Grant, Rodman).

Rodman wasn't all-star caliber. He was one-dimensional. Grant was barely all-star caliber, but dude above is talking about a 25/15/5/3 7-footer (which he feels Bynum will develop into), not a 13 pt/9.5 reb 6'10" PF.

(interestingly, LA is getting similar per minute production from Kwame right now as Chicago got from Grant, ~14/11.7 vs. ~16/11.7; and Brown is an excellent defender, too).


Find me the number of big men who made the ASG in the last 15 years with a line of 13-14 pts and 8.5-10 rebs or worse.

[eliteballer]

:roll: Rodman the best rebounder in the league and arguably the best defender at the PF position, a very good passer not All-Star caliber:wtf: HO Grant dropping double-doubles and playing great D isn't either:rolleyes: Funny how groupies pretend like Jordan carried chumps to titles yet turn around and say Rodman> Big Ben and Pippen> Any SF. Give Kobe a better version of Big Ben and a top 3 SF(Bron, Pierce etc) and let's see if he can't win chips.

[Y2Gezee]

:roll: Rodman the best rebounder in the league and arguably the best defender at the PF position, a very good passer not All-Star caliber:wtf: HO Grant dropping double-doubles and playing great D isn't either:rolleyes: Funny how groupies pretend like Jordan carried chumps to titles yet turn around and say Rodman> Big Ben and Pippen> Any SF. Give Kobe a better version of Big Ben and a top 3 SF(Bron, Pierce etc) and let's see if he can't win chips.


'Tis true. But Im not sure Kobe could win the chip, but that team would definately be a contender.

[Loki]

:roll: Rodman the best rebounder in the league and arguably the best defender at the PF position, a very good passer not All-Star caliber:wtf: HO Grant dropping double-doubles and playing great D isn't either:rolleyes: Funny how groupies pretend like Jordan carried chumps to titles yet turn around and say Rodman> Big Ben and Pippen> Any SF. Give Kobe a better version of Big Ben and a top 3 SF(Bron, Pierce etc) and let's see if he can't win chips.

Again, find me the list of all-star big men who made the all-star team with lines of 13-14 points and 8.5-10 reb or worse in the last 15 years. Thanks.


For the record, I don't think Big Ben is a great example of an all-star caliber player either, but he basically doubled up Rodman in ppg and was comparable defensively and on the boards; he also was a great shotblocker whereas Rodman wasn't.


I'll wait on your list. 14/10 or worse. All-stars. Find them.


I also like how you use the '96-'98 Bulls as a comparison. When Jordan was 28, he won with Grant (whom Kwame is basically equal to on a per minute basis, as I've shown) and Pippen, who in '91 was better than Odom only defensively. LMAO @ suggesting that Pip is on Bron or Pierce's level -- they're entirely different types of players. I'd be willing to give Kobe a 19/8/6 guy with great defense (which is what Pippen was), not a 31/7/7 guy or a 27/7/5 guy, each of whom can drop 40+ at any time and are extremely aggressive offensively. Know how many games of 35+ points Pippen had in the three seasons from '91-'93? 6. Know how many games of 35+ Pierce and Lebron have had already just this season? 2 and 3, respectively. So in 14 games, Lebron has half the amount of 35+ point games that Pippen had in 246 games. But yeah, let's just give Kobe Bron. Might as well give him prime Kareem too -- he needs it. :roll:


Oh wait -- Bynum is going to be better than Kareem! :roll: Bynum for prime Kareem:


<Laker_Fan1>: "I wouldn't do that trade; Bynum is young and has great potential. Give them Brown and Evans"

[JSub]

Damn Loki, have mercy on the guy.

[eliteballer]

Again, find me the list of all-star big men who made the all-star team with lines of 13-14 points and 8.5-10 reb or worse in the last 15 years. Thanks.


For the record, I don't think Big Ben is a great example of an all-star caliber player either, but he basically doubled up Rodman in ppg and was comparable defensively and on the boards; he also was a great shotblocker whereas Rodman wasn't.


I'll wait on your list. 14/10 or worse. All-stars. Find them.


I also like how you use the '96-'98 Bulls as a comparison. When Jordan was 28, he won with Grant (whom Kwame is basically equal to on a per minute basis, as I've shown) and Pippen, who in '91 was better than Odom only defensively. LMAO @ suggesting that Pip is on Bron or Pierce's level -- they're entirely different types of players. I'd be willing to give Kobe a 19/8/6 guy with great defense (which is what Pippen was), not a 31/7/7 guy or a 27/7/5 guy, each of whom can drop 40+ at any time and are extremely aggressive offensively. Know how many games of 35+ points Pippen had in the three seasons from '91-'93? 6. Know how many games of 35+ Pierce and Lebron have had already just this season? 2 and 3, respectively. So in 14 games, Lebron has half the amount of 35+ point games that Pippen had in 246 games. But yeah, let's just give Kobe Bron. Might as well give him prime Kareem too -- he needs it. :roll:

You want an All-Star big man with those kinds of stats? Sure. Horace Grant in 1994. Shut IT. Go ahead and start a thread about Rodman vs. Wallace. See how many votes Wallace gets. Did you just say Kwame=Ho Grant? Kwame can't catch the damn ball half the time:roll: Leave it to you to rely on stats...the game is about more than stats. Pippen made the All-NBA first team over a Grant Hill who was doing 20/10/7. Pippen didn't have as many 35 point games. WOW!. His impact went faaaaar beyond how many points he scored. Could Bron or Pierce even PRAY to give Magic fits?:stupid:

[Y2Gezee]

Oh my Loki, you're really underrating Pip. Pippen could've been a mid 20ppg scorer possibly on another team. You think Pierce is better than Pippen was? Naw. I'd rather have the guy with the Odom like stats and pippen like defense or in other words Artest (if he wasn't insane) next to Kobe. and the good big man.

I think Pippen in his prime could've atleast had a few 24-27ppg seasons if he was the man on a pretty bad team.

And Sheed had those type of stats last year and made the allstar team.

[eliteballer]

All-stars. Find them.


You want an All-Star big man with those kinds of stats? Sure. Horace Grant in 1994.

LocOwned!:roll:

[Loki]

You want an All-Star big man with those kinds of stats? Sure. Horace Grant in 1994. Shut IT.

:roll:

That's the entire point of the argument: that Grant was perhaps the weakest all-star big man ever, and that you were trying to paint him as something he was not (I originally conceded that he was BARELY all-star worthy, and you then tried to act as if he was a beast). And I ask you for examples of other all-stars with comparable or worse lines and you post...Grant. What a joke. :roll:


Regardless, none of these guys are a 25/15/5/3 center (better than Shaq #'s), which is what sparked this debate. I didn't say that Kobe should be expected to win without help, I said why can't he win without what people feel will be a 25/15/5/3 big man. You then changed the issue to one of "help." Nobody said Kobe doesn't deserve help.



Go ahead and start a thread about Rodman vs. Wallace. See how many votes Wallace gets. Did you just say Kwame=Ho Grant? Kwame can't catch the damn ball half the time:roll: Leave it to you to rely on stats...the game is about more than stats.

Amazing how well he produces despite not being able to catch the ball, huh? Bynum's per minute production is also comparable to Grant's -- can he not catch the ball either?



Pippen made the All-NBA first team over a Grant Hill who was doing 20/10/7. Pippen didn't have as many 35 point games. WOW!. His impact went faaaaar beyond how many points he scored. Could Bron or Pierce even PRAY to give Magic fits?:stupid:

Like I said, different players. I'd be willing to see if Kobe could win with a 19/8/6 great defensive SF (basically Lamar Odom with better defense), but why does he need a 31/7/7 or 27/7/5 player, one of whom is already hailed as a GOAT candidate, in order to win? Pippen may have been a top 3 SF back then, but the top 3 SF's today (Lebron, Pierce, and Melo) are much better offensive players than the top 3 back then (Pippen, Hill, and Rice), and Lebron is better than all of them by a good margin PERIOD.



Oh my Loki, you're really underrating Pip. Pippen could've been a mid 20ppg scorer possibly on another team. You think Pierce is better than Pippen was? Naw. I'd rather have the guy with the Odom like stats and pippen like defense or in other words Artest (if he wasn't insane) next to Kobe. and the good big man.

Not mid-20's imo. Low 20's, topping out at around 23.5 ppg. Pierce is not necessarily BETTER than Pippen was (though Lebron is), but he's different, and the reason I highlight that difference is because clowns like eliteballer tend to forget about Pippen's offensive woes (especially in the latter postseasons) while hyping him up as some sort of god in order to downplay Jordan. Yeah, I'll give Kobe Artest, so long as Artest shoots 39, 42, and 41% in consecutive postseasons like Pippen did from '96-'98. :rolleyes: Actually, I'd be willing to give Kobe Artest, no problem. But Lebron is a different story entirely.

[eliteballer]

:roll:

That's the entire point of the argument: that Grant was perhaps the weakest all-star big man ever, and that you were trying to paint him as something he was not (I originally conceded that he was BARELY all-star worthy, and you then tried to act as if he was a beast). And I ask you for examples of other all-stars with comparable or worse lines and you post...Grant. What a joke. :roll:


Regardless, none of these guys are a 25/15/5/3 center (better than Shaq #'s), which is what sparked this debate. I didn't say that Kobe should be expected to win without help, I said why can't he win without what people feel will be a 25/15/5/3 big man. You then changed the issue to one of "help." Nobody said Kobe doesn't deserve help.




Amazing how well he produces despite not being able to catch the ball, huh? Bynum's per minute production is also comparable to Grant's -- can he not catch the ball either?




Like I said, different players. I'd be willing to see if Kobe could win with a 19/8/6 great defensive SF (basically Lamar Odom with better defense), but why does he need a 31/7/7 or 27/7/5 player, one of whom is already hailed as a GOAT candidate, in order to win? Pippen may have been a top 3 SF back then, but the top 3 SF's today (Lebron, Pierce, and Melo) are much better offensive players than the top 3 back then (Pippen, Hill, and Rice), and Lebron is better than all of them by a good margin PERIOD.




Not mid-20's imo. Low 20's, topping out at around 24 ppg. Pierce is not necessarily BETTER than Pippen was (though Lebron is), but he's different, and the reason I highlight that difference is because clowns like eliteballer tend to forget about Pippen's offensive woes (especially in the latter postseasons) while hyping him up as some sort of god in order to downplay Jordan. Yeah, I'll give Kobe Artest, so long as Artest shoots 39, 42, and 41% in consecutive postseasons like Pippen did from '96-'98. :rolleyes: Actually, I'd be willing to give Kobe Artest, no problem. But Lebron is a different story entirely.


Sheed. Illguaskus. Magloirre. Jayson Williams. Mutumbo. Smits. Kareem. Tyrone Hill. Laimbeer. Parish. Oakley. Cliff. Sikma. Lucas. Need I go on?:roll: I named the player you were demoting as an actual All-Star. Cork it. Now you're saying Melo and Pierce are better than Pippen? Ridiculous the lengths you will go to defend MJ. Spewing nonsense left and right. Bron isn't better than Hill was. Nope. Hill was a better rebounder, defender and at least as good a passer

[Y2Gezee]

Oops. Sheed had 15.1, but whats the difference. He may do it again this year.

[Loki]

Sheed. Illguaskus. Magloirre. Jayson Williams. Mutumbo. Smits. Kareem. Tyrone Hill. Laimbeer. Parish. Oakley. Cliff. Sikma. Lucas. Need I go on?:roll:

Give me years so I can check the stats, because I know you didn't. Again, worse than 14/10 in both categories (because Grant was at 12.8/8.4 and 13.2/9.5 in two of the championship seasons).


Regardless, I originally conceded that he was a barely all-star caliber big man, but you then proceeded to act as if he was the second coming. Sorry, but 14/10 or 13/9 is skirting the line for an all-star big man. How does that compare to a 25/15/5/3 player? Oh that's right -- it doesn't.


And LMAO @ Hill being better than Bron. As an all-around player, maybe (though it's close), but not as a franchise player to build around. Nobody was mentioning Hill as a GOAT candidate. Ever.

[eliteballer]

LOL. Hill was annointed the heir to Jordan. The hyperbole of calling players GOAT wasn't as prevalent. Bron has ESPN and Nike. pushing him down everyone's throats.

[eliteballer]

Give me years so I can check the stats, because I know you didn't. Again, worse than 14/10 in both categories (because Grant was at 12.8/8.4 and 13.2/9.5 in two of the championship seasons).


Regardless, I originally conceded that he was a barely all-star caliber big man, but you then proceeded to act as if he was the second coming. Sorry, but 14/10 or 13/9 is skirting the line for an all-star big man. How does that compare to a 25/15/5/3 player? Oh that's right -- it doesn't.


And LMAO @ Hill being better than Bron. As an all-around player, maybe (though it's close), but not as a franchise player to build around. Nobody was mentioning Hill as a GOAT candidate. Ever.

Flawed reasoning. They are either worse in points or rebounds and very few bring the defense to the table. Grant posted comparable numbers to his All-Star appearance in the title years when factoring in FG%, blocks, steals.:stupid:

[Loki]

Grant posted comparable numbers to his All-Star appearance in the title years when factoring in FG%, blocks, steals.:stupid:

I never denied that. But it's a bit misleading to call a 14/10 or 13/9 player an "all-star caliber player." Hell, I even conceded that he was (barely) all-star level, but you had to go an act like a fool, as if Grant was some force. Bynum and Kwame are basically his equal production-wise right now. You give either of them Grant's 35 mpg (as opposed to 20-25 mpg) and they'll easily put up 13/9. Are they "all-star caliber players", or would you say that that's misleading?

[eliteballer]

Grant MADE the All-Star team and plenty have with comparable numbers. It goes beyond the numbers. Bynum and Kwame are no where near All-Star caliber. It's like comparing them to Sheed right now. Really need to ask who the hell is better? The only one acting a fool is you.

[Loki]

Grant MADE the All-Star team and plenty have with comparable numbers. It goes beyond the numbers. Bynum and Kwame are no where near All-Star caliber. It's like comparing them to Sheed right now. Really need to ask who the hell is better? The only one acting a fool is you.

Why does it go beyond the numbers, because you said so? Give Bynum 35 mpg and he averages 13/9 guaranteed. Is he an all-star caliber player? He doesn't drop balls like Kwame, either, so there goes that excuse.

[eliteballer]

If Bynum had the stamina and consistency to GET those minutes than maybe. You always speak about the superior understanding of Jordan on D. Ho Grant's knowledge>>>>>Kwame or Bynums. Just like Sheeds. If you want to rely on stats Bron of the last few years>>>98 Jordan. You asked for a list and you got one. Owned.

[eliteballer]

Pippen Grant and BJ all made the All-Star team in 94. If Smush, Odom, and Kwame can do that we'll have a discussion:D

[Loki]

If Bynum had the stamina and consistency to GET those minutes than maybe. You always speak about the superior understanding of Jordan on D. Ho Grant's knowledge>>>>>Kwame or Bynums. Just like Sheeds. If you want to rely on stats Bron of the last few years>>>98 Jordan. You asked for a list and you got one. Owned.

:roll:

What's funny is that I said that he was barely AS caliber, but you tried to paint him as some kind of force. Ho Grant wasn't a force -- he was a good, hard-working player. Nothing more or less. He certainly wasn't a 25/15/5/3 big man like was being discussed before you sidetracked things and acted like Grant/Rodman = a 25/15/5/3 big man.

[eliteballer]

Where oh where did I call Rodman or Grant 25/15 bigmen? Putting words into my mouth to ease your humiliation?


Pippen Grant and BJ all made the All-Star team in 94. If Smush, Odom, and Kwame can do that we'll have a discussion

3 All-Stars

[Loki]

Where oh where did I call Rodman or Grant 25/15 bigmen? Putting words into my mouth to ease your humiliation?

No, as I said, I asked why Kobe can't win without a dominant, 25/15/5/3 big man and you came in and changed the discussion to one about mere "help." Help, eliteballer, is a 13/9 big man or a third 11+ ppg scorer. A 25/15/5/3 big man cannot be considered "help" -- it's considered a Hall of Fame, top 15 all-time player. You changed the subject, not me. I never said that Kobe didn't deserve help, nor did I suggest that Jordan didn't have help. I simply asked why he can't win without what some feel will be a 25/15/5/3 big man. Because KG's 22/11/5 obviously isn't enough for Kobe, since many Laker fans wouldn't make the trade, as seen in this thread...




3 All-Stars

:roll:


How about this: if Kobe has a 10-12 pt/4 ast PG and a 13/9 or 14/10 big man with good defense on his team, we'll talk. Because that's what Jordan had from his other two "all stars" during the first three-peat.

[eliteballer]

Keep grasping for straws. It only embarrasses you further:pimp:

[eliteballer]

So LOCO, basically what you're telling us is if Kobe was taken off the Lakers, they would win 55 games, have multiple All-Stars and make the 2nd round of the playoffs getting to within a game of the Conference Finals? Is THAT what you're telling us?

[Loki]

Keep grasping for straws. It only embarrasses you further:pimp:

If you insist.

[lakers-city]

eliteballer, you are severely overrating grant just to downplay jordan, the allstar game doesnt mean jack, is a popularity contest, grant in the bulls championship teams is comparable to what karl malone was in the 04 lakers, not to what shaq was in the 00-02 lakers, to suggest that or even think it is beyond absurd.

[Loki]

So LOCO, basically what you're telling us is if Kobe was taken off the Lakers, they would win 55 games, have multiple All-Stars and make the 2nd round of the playoffs getting to within a game of the Conference Finals? Is THAT what you're telling us?

No, I never said any of that. Though, yes, Odom would be an all-star; moreover -- and to bring this back to what we were actually discussing -- Kwame or Bynum would be capable of putting up 13/9 just like Grant if given Grant's 35 mpg instead of the 20-25 mpg they currently get. Never said anything about Smush or anyone else.

You acted like Grant was some kind of force. He wasn't. He was a 13/9 big man with great defense. Deal with it.

[Snow]

You acted like Grant was some kind of force. He wasn't. He was a 13/9 big man with great defense. Deal with it.

He might not have been some kind of force, but he was rock solid(similar to the way the Laker's Luke Walton shows up night in/night out except at a more valuable position). Something that's a rarity nowadays, hell even back then. Add his defensive prowess and you have a very valuable player.

[Loki]

He might not have been some kind of force, but he was rock solid(similar to the way the Laker's Luke Walton shows up night in/night out except at a more valuable position). Something that's a rarity nowadays, hell even back then. Add his defensive prowess and you have a very valuable player.

I know he was valuable. But I was talking about a 25/15/5/3 player (which a poster felt that Bynum would develop into eventually), and asked why Kobe can't win without a dominant big man. Even KG's apparently pedestrian 22/11/5 is not enough for Kobe fans, because they wouldn't trade Bynum for him, and even if they did, they were still looking for studs at the PG/SF positions (apparently having two top 25 all-time players in their absolute primes on the same team along with serviceable role players isn't enough for LA to win with). A 25/15/5/3/55% big man is better than Kobe himself -- can Kobe win without a player better than himself? Mind you, Garnett has also had a better individual career than Kobe, so...


Eliteballer came in and changed the subject entirely by talking about the "help" Jordan had (mind you I never said that Kobe has to prove that he can win without "help," but I think we can agree that a 25/15/5/3 player is a bit more than "help"), and mentioned Grant as an "all-star caliber big man." I conceded that he was barely all-star caliber, and eliteballer acted like he was some sort of beast, which he clearly was not. He then tried to equate Scottie Pippen and Lebron James; I said that they're different types of players entirely, and that I'd be willing to give Kobe, say, Ron Artest (or a 19/8/6 SF with tremendous defense, which is what Pippen was), but not a 31/7/7 player who has in 14 games this season already had half the amount of 35+ point games that Pippen had in the 246 games from '91-'93 (6 vs. 3). Apparently Kobe needs a 25/15/5/3 big man and a GOAT candidate (Lebron) in order to win. Oh, wait, they'd still be weak at PG. :rolleyes:

[raiderfan19]

Garnett has NOT had a better career than kobe. As for the 55 wins make the second round comment, Im guessing its because thats what the bulls did without jordan. Jordan was a beast. No question about that but his team was loaded. Pippen was a stud. Grant was solid, rodman was the best defensive pf in nba history(though he didnt get there till the second three peat).

[Loki]

Garnett has NOT had a better career than kobe

Not a better career overall (due to Kobe's rings), but a better career individually, yes he has. Ask yourself something: pretend Kobe never won 3 rings. Would his career still be more impressive than Garnett's? Nope. KG has been more productive and has more individual accolades as well.



As for the 55 wins make the second round comment, Im guessing its because thats what the bulls did without jordan.

I know why he said it; my point was that I never suggested that the Lakers would do that if you removed Kobe. And they wouldn't do so for a variety of reasons, not just because the Lakers suck outside of Kobe.


Jordan was a beast. No question about that but his team was loaded. Pippen was a stud. Grant was solid, rodman was the best defensive pf in nba history(though he didnt get there till the second three peat).

No one denied all that. I made very limited claims, all of which can be backed up. What eliteballer chooses to read into my comments is not my problem, however.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Lakers would have won 07,08,09,10

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

never seen loki get out of hand, wonder why he got banned..

[ZeN]

Lakers would have won 07,08,09,10
Those pieces weren't even involved in the Pay trade..kg,Pau,Kobe...total domination.

Sad how Bynum been mad overrated since 06.

[Genaro]

That time when Lakers had that bad team and Wolves weren't doing well, this rumors about KG to the Lakers popped out all the time and it was a dream for me. KG was one of my favorite players and I really wish he was a laker.
Unfortunately he was traded to the Celtics and broke my heart winning the title against the Lakers.