How come MJ was able to avg 50%FG as a guard?

[KG5MVP]

For guards the common FG% is around 45%. 40% for chuckers like Allen Iverson, 46-47% for star guards such as Wade and Kobe.

But MJ, he was able to consistently achieve 50%+ FG as a guard, also getting the scoring title each time, and during times when hand checking was allowed, how come he was able to do what no other guards could do.

[Nash]

Cuz he's by far the GOAT

[Doko]

For guards the common FG% is around 45%. 40% for chuckers like Allen Iverson, 46-47% for star guards such as Wade and Kobe.

But MJ, he was able to consistently achieve 50%+ FG as a guard, also getting the scoring title each time, and during times when hand checking was allowed, how come he was able to do what no other guards could do.

It may have something to do with him being the GOAT

[Micku]

Hardly shot the 3, mid-jumper is automatic, and one of the best finishers, if not the best, around the rim.

Phil Jackson commented on how his interior game is the best he has ever seen.

More stuff:

You know how LBJ and Wade get close to 50% FG in a few of their seasons? Well, LBJ had 50% last year. Imagine Jordan being like them with a better jumper. Like a Kobe, Allen, PP, or Nash (mid jumper).

[ashbelly]

He was accurate/Wet jumper and his finishing was out of this world.

[noob cake]

For guards the common FG% is around 45%. 40% for chuckers like Allen Iverson, 46-47% for star guards such as Wade and Kobe.

But MJ, he was able to consistently achieve 50%+ FG as a guard, also getting the scoring title each time, and during times when hand checking was allowed, how come he was able to do what no other guards could do.

Really good at basketball?

[gts]

Avoided the 3 pointer, good mid range, solid post up game which led to a lot of high percentage shots

[KobeKlutch]

Jordan played in an era of inflated stats.

If you look at the FG% in the years he played, he wasn't among the leaders. In fact there were a lot of guards averaging that same amount.

You would think shooting 50% would make you one of the leaders in FG% but a lot of guards were averaging that due to pace or poor defense.

[Micku]

Jordan played in an era of inflated stats.

If you look at the FG% in the years he played, he wasn't among the leaders. In fact there were a lot of guards averaging that same amount.

You would think shooting 50% would make you one of the leaders in FG% but a lot of guards were averaging that due to pace or poor defense.

Shot selection. Mid-jumpers and finishing around the rim are no joke. You see it with Wade and LBJ and stuff. Imagine if LBJ cut down on his 3pa. LBJ takes five a game and he averaged 50% last year. Jordan hardly takes a one a game, let alone five. If LBJ would cut down on his three point attempts, he would average a FG% comparable to Jordan.

People take more 3s now. It's no coincidence that once the league started to take more 3s that their FG% goes down. You can see that in the 80s. As the 3pa goes up, the FG% goes down.

Defense got better after everyone adapted the Bad Boys Pistons defense against Jordan. Knicks and the Heat adopted that, which influenced the league.

But yeah, MJ had some good shot selection. That's why his FG% is all epic like.

[noob cake]

Jordan played in an era of inflated stats.

If you look at the FG% in the years he played, he wasn't among the leaders. In fact there were a lot of guards averaging that same amount.

You would think shooting 50% would make you one of the leaders in FG% but a lot of guards were averaging that due to pace or poor defense.

Kobe would shoot 55% in Jordan era right right?

[TryToBeUnbias]

Avoided the 3 pointer, good mid range, solid post up game which led to a lot of high percentage shots
ding ding ding, also his ability to score off ball

[KobeKlutch]

Kobe would shoot 55% in Jordan era right right?

Kobe would probably average 50% in that era but not 55%

but...if Kobe played in that era he could have changed the game with his range. There would have been epic scoring games.

[KG5MVP]

Kobe would probably average 50% in that era but not 55%

but...if Kobe played in that era he could have changed the game with his range. There would have been epic scoring games.

Lol what happened to Kobe in 2004 finals

[Micku]

Kobe would probably average 50% in that era but not 55%

but...if Kobe played in that era he could have changed the game with his range. There would have been epic scoring games.

I doubt it. Even in his 01-02 year, he didn't average 50% and he hardly shot any 3s. Even when they stop hand-checking to increase scoring and allow ppl to drive to the rim, he rather take the jumper.

Wade and LBJ took advantage of their ability to drive, and Kobe was never the greatest shot selection guy. But who knows. If he were to average better FG%, he would not have shot the 3 ball. If he was in the 80s or early 90s, then he would be in a culture where mid-jumper and driving is the thing.

[kumquat]

Kobe would probably average 50% in that era but not 55%

but...if Kobe played in that era he could have changed the game with his range. There would have been epic scoring games.

A 40 year old Jordan in 02/03 shot @ 44.5%

A PRIME Kobe shot 45.1% in 02/03 :oldlol:

[deeznut]

A 40 year old Jordan in 02/03 shot @ 44.5%

A PRIME Kobe shot 45.1% in 02/03 :oldlol:
you tell me kobe prime was in 02?

[KG5MVP]

you tell me kobe prime was in 02?

yea change the topic

[KobeKlutch]

A 40 year old Jordan in 02/03 shot @ 44.5%

A PRIME Kobe shot 45.1% in 02/03 :oldlol:

That's exactly what I am saying.....Kobe shot .6 more than MJ in 02-03....there is no doubt in my mind that he would be hovering around the same FG% as MJ in that era.

Repped.

[KG5MVP]

That's exactly what I am saying.....Kobe shot .6 more than MJ in 02-03....there is no doubt in my mind that he would be hovering around the same FG% as MJ in that era.

Repped.


LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

shows you the IQ of kobe fans.

[abdubaba]

50% was actually bout the league average then

[gyu]

That's exactly what I am saying.....Kobe shot .6 more than MJ in 02-03....there is no doubt in my mind that he would be hovering around the same FG% as MJ in that era.

Repped.
Shooting 0.6% better than a 40 year old is quite an accomplishment isn't it :cheers:

[necya]

Jordan played in an era of inflated stats.

If you look at the FG% in the years he played, he wasn't among the leaders. In fact there were a lot of guards averaging that same amount.

You would think shooting 50% would make you one of the leaders in FG% but a lot of guards were averaging that due to pace or poor defense.

you stay very strong in the stupidity area, impressive.

[KobeKlutch]

50% was actually bout the league average then

yup.

[N0Skillz]

A 40 year old Jordan in 02/03 shot @ 44.5%

A PRIME Kobe shot 45.1% in 02/03 :oldlol:


Kobe's prime was not in 02 ....

[az00m]

Michael Jordan usually got the shots he wanted.

When he was younger he get to the rim at will and pretty much always get the foul or the bucket.

Later in his career he had an amazing post game (Imo best next to the dream) which resulted in high % shots.

He developed a great fade away, and always looked to use picks and play off the ball very well.

[catch24]

That's exactly what I am saying.....Kobe shot .6 more than MJ in 02-03....there is no doubt in my mind that he would be hovering around the same FG% as MJ in that era.

Repped.

So you're admitting you never watched a game from that ERA?

[macpierce]

circle jerk thread started by ________, not surprised :oldlol:

[kumquat]

Kobe's prime was not in 02 ....

Yes he was.

Kobe was 30/7/6 shooting 45.1% in 02/03

Jordans last year as a 40 year old shooting 44.6% in 02/03


Proof in point there's no way Kobe would be near a 50% shooting guard in jordans era.

[Showtime]

Avoided the 3 pointer, good mid range, solid post up game which led to a lot of high percentage shots
He didn't avoid the 3, he just didn't rely upon that to settle for a shot when he could work harder for a higher quality shot.

[KobeKlutch]

Yes he was.

Kobe was 30/7/6 shooting 45.1% in 02/03

Jordans last year as a 40 year old shooting 44.6% in 02/03


Proof in point there's no way Kobe would be near a 50% shooting guard in jordans era.

Why wouldn't Kobe average 50% if he shot .6 better than MJ in 03?

Kobe would be shooting the same as MJ in that era.

[noob cake]

Yes he was.

Kobe was 30/7/6 shooting 45.1% in 02/03

Jordans last year as a 40 year old shooting 44.6% in 02/03


Proof in point there's no way Kobe would be near a 50% shooting guard in jordans era.

I don't even see how Kobe fans are even attempting to proof that Kobe can shoot equally as well as Jordan in the 90's, if not better. GOAT by definition is equal to 'Greatest Of All Time'

[kumquat]

Why wouldn't Kobe average 50% if he shot .6 better than MJ in 03?

Kobe would be shooting the same as MJ in that era.

Because by the time kobe is 40, he'll be hovering around the 30% mark.

[KG5MVP]

Why wouldn't Kobe average 50% if he shot .6 better than MJ in 03?

Kobe would be shooting the same as MJ in that era.

Because MJ was 40 years old.

Prime MJ would probably average 55-56% in 02-03

[Bigsmoke]

For guards the common FG% is around 45%. 40% for chuckers like Allen Iverson, 46-47% for star guards such as Wade and Kobe.

But MJ, he was able to consistently achieve 50%+ FG as a guard, also getting the scoring title each time, and during times when hand checking was allowed, how come he was able to do what no other guards could do.

because he's good u idiot

[Willkill24]

Kobe>>>>>>>>>>>Jordan

[noob cake]

Why wouldn't Kobe average 50% if he shot .6 better than MJ in 03?

Kobe would be shooting the same as MJ in that era.

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[az00m]

I love how the guy who started this thread is now jumping on the kobe hate saying MJ would go above 55%, but earlier questioned how MJ was shooting 50%

:oldlol:

[noob cake]

I love how the guy who started this thread is now jumping on the kobe hate saying MJ would go above 55%, but earlier questioned how MJ was shooting 50%

:oldlol:

Cleaver reverse-troll/Kobe bait thread

[kumquat]

Not to mention Jordan at the same age as kobe in 02/03 was 32/8/8 on 53.8% shooting. Getting close to shooting 10% better than Kobe :roll:

[KobeKlutch]

Not wanting to make this into a Kobe vs MJ thread........I will stay on topic.

Shooting 50 percent was the norm for guards back in that era. If you guys go back and look at the stats, there were guards shooting better than Jordan.

It was the faster pace and man to man defense that allowed for these inflated stats amongst the players.

[KG5MVP]

Not wanting to make this into a Kobe vs MJ thread........I will stay on topic.

Shooting 50 percent was the norm for guards back in that era. If you guys go back and look at the stats, there were guards shooting better than Jordan.

It was the faster pace and man to man defense that allowed for these inflated stats amongst the players.

uh no it wasn't?

[noob cake]

uh no it wasn't?

Haven't you heard, Kobe is/would have been really good in any era. If he had played with Wilt, he would have been dropping 50 PPG and 10 RPG.

[abdubaba]

yes. league average in the mid to late 80s was 49.1%. they didnt play defense. they just fouled harder

[KG5MVP]

yes. league average in the mid to late 80s was 49.1%. they didnt play defense. they just fouled harder

whats the league average now?

[KobeKlutch]

uh no it wasn't?

You started a thread asking how he averaged 50% and everyone told you and now you say it wasn't the average?

lol @ this troll.

[abdubaba]

whats the league average now?

44.1%

[Jordan23GOAT]

Cuz he's freaking Michael Jordan that's why!

[jlip]

The line between sg and sf has often been blurred. MJ was 6'6" which is basically the height of many other high scoring wings who were listed as forwards/ guards such as Dr. J, English, and Dantley. Gervin who was mostly considered a sg was 6'7". All of those players shot 50% or better for their careers. Dantley who was 6'5" actually shot 54% for his career and is the only player in NBA history I've come across who had at least 6 seasons of 28+ppg while shooting at least 55% in them. During the era that most of these wings played, the 3 point shot was not as much a weapon as it is today. Most of them, including MJ scored the majority of their points from 15ft or closer. Those are higher % shots.

Unless I've missed someone, I can't think of too many wings (sg or sf) other than Lebron, since MJ has retired, to avg. at least 20ppg while shooting at least 50% from the field for a season.

[Micku]

yes. league average in the mid to late 80s was 49.1%. they didnt play defense. they just fouled harder

Less 3pt shooting also. Way less 3pt shooting. The average in the 80s was around 200. Today is like 1500. eFG% today is higher than it was back then.


whats the league average now?

.461%
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2010.html


Edit:

If the 00s would shoot less 3s, then they would average the same FG% as the 80s. Perhaps more since the perimeter players have more room to operate.

[Rockets(T-mac)]

The man didn't settle for bad shots, simple as that. He knew how to get good shots, and got them whenever he wanted.

[ashbelly]

The man didn't settle for bad shots, simple as that. He knew how to get good shots, and got them whenever he wanted.


:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: /Thread

[j3lademaster]

yes. league average in the mid to late 80s was 49.1%. they didnt play defense. they just fouled harder

Is that for the league or GUARDS? I mean it was much more of a big man's game back then, so I'm just making sure.

[abdubaba]

Is that for the league or GUARDS? I mean it was much more of a big man's game back then, so I'm just making sure.

a lot of guards averaged almost 50% then on more than 28 ppg

[az00m]

The 80's hard 10x more dominating big men posting up then there is now. Plus the big men in the league now are taking 10 foot fade away jumpers. So please put a little blame on that for such the poor execution on smart shots now.

Plus back then they had a lot of pure shooters, centers draw the double and kick it out to a white man.

[gengiskhan]

Jordan played in an era of inflated stats.

If you look at the FG% in the years he played, he wasn't among the leaders. In fact there were a lot of guards averaging that same amount.

You would think shooting 50% would make you one of the leaders in FG% but a lot of guards were averaging that due to pace or poor defense.


this is the problem with kobe stans. always garbage like this comes up.

Jordan played in the era of more talented players. not european immigrations & high school wannabes of today with tons of tattoos.

How can you forget guys like Glenn Rice, Mitch Richmond, Abdul Raof, Chris Mullen, reggie miller etc etc etc all solid Gs who can shoot the lights out.

NBA from mid '80x go late '90s was the most talented of all 4 major spots in US.

Kobe's, Lebron's & Wade's NBA is much more watered down with no true great centers & true college talent showing up & lot more euros & high school softies.

& still Lebron, Kobe, Wade cannot even come close to MJs peak 53.4%FG.

[KobeKlutch]

The 80's hard 10x more dominating big men posting up then there is now. Plus the big men in the league now are taking 10 foot fade away jumpers. So please put a little blame on that for such the poor execution on smart shots now.

Plus back then they had a lot of pure shooters, centers draw the double and kick it out to a white man.

Jordan was a uncle tom-type of a player.

That is why he was so successful, he has no ghetto in him.

[KobeKlutch]

this is the problem with kobe stans. always garbage like this comes up.

Jordan played in the era of more talented players. not european immigrations & high school wannabes of today with tons of tattoos.

How can you forget guys like Glenn Rice, Mitch Richmond, Abdul Raof, Chris Mullen, reggie miller etc etc etc all solid Gs who can shoot the lights out.

NBA from mid '80x go late '90s was the most talented of all 4 major spots in US.

Kobe's, Lebron's & Wade's NBA is much more watered down with no true great centers & true college talent showing up & lot more euros & high school softies.

& still Lebron, Kobe, Wade cannot even come close to MJs peak 53.4%FG.

I believe MJ was ahead of his time.

I am sure Kobe, Wade or Lebron will dominate that era like MJ did. They wouldn't have a problem averaging 50%

[ashbelly]

Jordan was a uncle tom-type of a player.

That is why he was so successful, he has no ghetto in him.



:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[noob cake]

I believe MJ was ahead of his time.

I am sure Kobe, Wade or Lebron will dominate that era like MJ did. They wouldn't have a problem averaging 50%


Jordan was a uncle tom-type of a player.

That is why he was so successful, he has no ghetto in him.


Quote factory :lol :lol :lol

[Willkill24]

Jordan was a uncle tom-type of a player.

That is why he was so successful, he has no ghetto in him.

http://uvtblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/michael-jordan-drunk-and-partying.jpg

[KobeKlutch]

Michael Jordan is like a white man trapped in a black body.

He has good basketball IQ and utilized his athletic ability perfectly.

There is no such thing as ghetto-ness with MJ when he's holding that expensive cigar.

[gengiskhan]

I believe MJ was ahead of his time.

I am sure Kobe, Wade or Lebron will dominate that era like MJ did. They wouldn't have a problem averaging 50%

no. MJ is ahead of today's time too. MJ is a prototype player. He was way too athletic, too clever with cat like reflexes on offense & defense.

Pistons came up with illegal NFL like defense called "The Jordan Rules" to slow him down & burn him out. MJ still put up 50+ pts on them on national TV & 40+ pts in playoffs on them with injured groins, spraint ankle, sore knee & stuff.

cannot eve imagine kobe, wade surviving '80s pistons & my early '90s knicks defense. both will stuggle to ave 22ppg cuz their body will break down easily.

MJ was a killer, assasin on court. the guy just murdered opponents on will. something havent seen ever in NBA till now.

[ashbelly]

Michael Jordan is like a white man trapped in a black body.

He has good basketball IQ and utilized his athletic ability perfectly.

There is no such thing as ghetto-ness with MJ when he's holding that expensive cigar.


Yeah , he's like a burrito but takes like a burger.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Kobe would shoot 48.5-51% in the '88-'93 era. On the low end of that range if he took a lot of 3's and on the higher end if he eschewed the 3. He's definitely not shooting 53-54% like Jordan did several years, though.

[OldSchoolBBall]

yes. league average in the mid to late 80s was 49.1%. they didnt play defense. they just fouled harder

Uhh, no it wasn't. League average mid-late 80's was 47-48%. I think there may have been one year it was 49%, but that was like in '83 or '84.

[Force]

Jordan didn't shoot 3's and his post up game was unstoppable, his midrange game was unstoppable. He is the best guard who has ever played the game and it's not that close.

[DuMa]

he cheated. he enabled god mode

[kentatm]

is proper shot selection really that difficult of a concept for some of you to comprehend?

[AirTupac]

http://uvtblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/michael-jordan-drunk-and-partying.jpg

Oh i get it, he's not allowed to party and if he does, it makes him an animal.

Truth is, Jordan was and is a humble guy. Should read some of the stories about him.

[MakeHistory78]

Jordan didn't shoot 3's and his post up game was unstoppable, his midrange game was unstoppable. He is the best guard who has ever played the game and it's not that close.
After 1988 started to improve his 3pt shooting.He wasn't the best 3 point shooter but when the Post-Season began we all Know what happened.For example "The Shrug game" Game 1 1992 NBA Finals with 6 3's in the first half!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=med9nvhCkao
Or at Game 4 1993 NBA Eastern Finals against Knicks and Starks with again 6 3's(He finished with 54 points).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoVMIZWS_-A
Jordan was a beast.Nobody is like him.

[Willkill24]

Oh i get it, he's not allowed to party and if he does, it makes him an animal.

Truth is, Jordan was and is a humble guy. Should read some of the stories about him.

What?

[kentatm]

Oh i get it, he's not allowed to party and if he does, it makes him an animal.

Truth is, Jordan was and is a humble guy. Should read some of the stories about him.

:roll:

Micheal Jordan and humble are two things that simply do not go together.

[seoerizer]

I see lots of Kobe's fans who are just stupid.

[SinJackal]

50% was actually bout the league average then

The highest league average in the 80's never reached 50%. And Jordan was shooting around 53.5% at the time. 4-5% above league average. He wasn't shooting a mere 50%. 50% is his career average. Not his peak average which he was shooting at the time.



yup.

It's funny you're agreeing with that league average comment when Kobe usually shoots roughly about what the league's average FG% is now, and always has shot around the league's FG%. Closer to it than Jordan ever did. :lol



a lot of guards averaged almost 50% then on more than 28 ppg

"a lot" did? Name 3 besides Jordan. And name GUARDS, not SFs who might play SG for 3 mins a game during bench switches.



Kobe would shoot 48.5-51% in the '88-'93 era. On the low end of that range if he took a lot of 3's and on the higher end if he eschewed the 3. He's definitely not shooting 53-54% like Jordan did several years, though.

Not really. Kobe's FG%, and current league FG% for that matter, are down because they take WAY more threes than were taken in the 80's.

The league now takes 3x as many threes as were taken in the 80's.

You put a player who shoots 45-46% from the field while taking as many threes as he does in the 80's, and he still shoots the same because he's dropping his own FG% by taking that many threes. His efficiancy doesn't go up just because you're dropping him in an era of players who didn't shoot the three ball much. He's still more of a 3pt shooter than just about anyone else at the time, which means he doesn't score at any better a %. Unless you're claiming he won't shoot the three as much and will drive in more even with handchecking and doubling, and will magically become more of an off the ball player that he'd need to be like the other guards were at the time to actually score efficiantly instead of trying to iso score half the time like he does now?

You're also theoretically putting a not too durable finese player into a brutish physical defensive era and actually thinking he's going to play BETTER? It's just as arguable that he'd drop off due to not having a halo rule over him like he has now.

[jstern]

Last week I created a program for Java that calculates a players 2 point percentage, and Jordan I believe was at 51 or 52% and Kobe was 48%.

[Glide2keva]

Because he had chronic good at basketball disease.

[kentatm]

The highest league average in the 80's never reached 50%. And Jordan was shooting around 53.5% at the time. 4-5% above league average. He wasn't shooting a mere 50%. 50% is his career average. Not his peak average which he was shooting at the time.




It's funny you're agreeing with that league average comment when Kobe usually shoots roughly about what the league's average FG% is now, and always has shot around the league's FG%. Closer to it than Jordan ever did. :lol




"a lot" did? Name 3 besides Jordan. And name GUARDS, not SFs who might play SG for 3 mins a game during bench switches.




Not really. Kobe's FG%, and current league FG% for that matter, are down because they take WAY more threes than were taken in the 80's.

The league now takes 3x as many threes as were taken in the 80's.

You put a player who shoots 45-46% from the field while taking as many threes as he does in the 80's, and he still shoots the same because he's dropping his own FG% by taking that many threes. His efficiancy doesn't go up just because you're dropping him in an era of players who didn't shoot the three ball much. He's still more of a 3pt shooter than just about anyone else at the time, which means he doesn't score at any better a %. Unless you're claiming he won't shoot the three as much and will drive in more even with handchecking and doubling, and will magically become more of an off the ball player that he'd need to be like the other guards were at the time to actually score efficiantly instead of trying to iso score half the time like he does now?

You're also theoretically putting a not too durable finese player into a brutish physical defensive era and actually thinking he's going to play BETTER? It's just as arguable that he'd drop off due to not having a halo rule over him like he has now.

http://planetsmilies.net/happy-smiley-8769.gif

[DetroitPistonFan]

Jordan shot 50% cause he got guys who are guarding were a little shorter than he was.

[asdf1990]

Jordan shot 50% cause he got guys who are guarding were a little shorter than he was.

we are talking about jordan not wilt.

[MakeHistory78]

I see lots of Kobe's fans who are just stupid.
Me too.And you know what they deserve.Maybe they forget it!
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_0SWl0hRdg4A/S-ArVKCdZFI/AAAAAAAAP_4/5x_mwjAP24o/s1600/kobeMJordan.jpg

[Psileas]

we are talking about jordan not wilt.

That's not the reason Wilt shot that well, either.

[Willkill24]

Tiger woods>>>>>>>>>Jordan :lol

[asdf1990]

Me too.And you know what they deserve.Maybe they forget it!
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_0SWl0hRdg4A/S-ArVKCdZFI/AAAAAAAAP_4/5x_mwjAP24o/s1600/kobeMJordan.jpg

lol .

[asdf1990]

Tiger woods>>>>>>>>>Jordan :lol

idk tiger woods played basketball too. which team is he on?

[Willkill24]

idk tiger woods played basketball too. which team is he on?

He's in his own league.

[AirTupac]

What?

:facepalm

[OldSchoolBBall]

Not really. Kobe's FG%, and current league FG% for that matter, are down because they take WAY more threes than were taken in the 80's.

The league now takes 3x as many threes as were taken in the 80's.

You put a player who shoots 45-46% from the field while taking as many threes as he does in the 80's, and he still shoots the same because he's dropping his own FG% by taking that many threes. His efficiancy doesn't go up just because you're dropping him in an era of players who didn't shoot the three ball much.

I'm assuming he would shoot better on 2's than he does now (which is fair to assume, I think). Again, I have no problem with anyone thinking Kobe would be more efficient in the late 80's/early 90's -- he almost certainly would be, especially if he cut down on his 3's (but even if he didn't). He'd shoot 48.5-50.5% imo depending on the year, maybe 51% at his peak in the late 80's sometime ('87-'89). But no way would he ever be at 53-54% like Jordan was, even if he took no 3's at all. He's simply not as smart, not as athletic, and, frankly, not as skilled (or, should I say, doesn't apply those skills to consistently find himself the best shot).

[Foster5k]

Mj > Kb24

[comerb]

Why wouldn't Kobe average 50% if he shot .6 better than MJ in 03?

Kobe would be shooting the same as MJ in that era.


You've never actually watched Jordan play have you? I can't fathom anyone who has actually watched both players that would possibly think that Kobe shoots anywhere near the same consistency that Jordan did, regardless of the era.

And of course we aren't even considering how much higher Jordan's % would of been post hand-checking rules.

[32jazz]

For guards the common FG% is around 45%. 40% for chuckers like Allen Iverson, 46-47% for star guards such as Wade and Kobe.

But MJ, he was able to consistently achieve 50%+ FG as a guard, also getting the scoring title each time, and during times when hand checking was allowed, how come he was able to do what no other guards could do.

First of all you geeks are too obssessed with another man.

Secondly soft defense was a complaint of many fans of the 80's before the Pistons came along & started changing perceptions/emphasis on defense.


I picked 87/88 season since it was MJ's best Fg% to show it was 'routine for Starting Guards to shoot at or over 50%:

Byron Scott:oldlol: -52.7%(21ppg)
Drexler -50.6%(25?ppg)
Stockton- 57.4%
Dale Ellis(jumpshooting specalist):rolleyes: -50.3%(26ppg)
Vern Fleming-52.3%
J Hornacek-50.6%
Otis Smith- 50.6%
M Price- 50.6%


D Ainge-49.1%
P Pressey(49.1%
Moncrief(49%)
J Dawkins(49%)

That's 11/12 starting(minutes wise) guards out of only 23 teams to shoot at or above 50%:roll:

'Worst' of the rest

Fat Lever- 47%
Kenny Smith-47%
Dumars(47%

R Miller 'only' shot 47% ,but reeled off three consecutive 50 plus percent or better seasons
Magic uncharacteristically shot below 50% ,but averaged well over 50% for his career.

Defense was considered 'poor' during the 80's(many fans/journalist complained of it) ,but geeks on the internet who never saw a game then(too young) are attempting revisionist history.


Fact is the 80's laked strong defense & more than half the leagues teams(23) had a guard or multiple guards shooting at or over 50%.

[beermonsteroo]

Smart shot selection, excellent mid range jumper, great post game, and above all by far the best ever in terms of attacking the rim.

[madmax]

Smart shot selection, excellent mid range jumper, great post game, and above all by far the best ever in terms of attacking the rim.
negative...Lebron is by FAR the best ever attacking the rim - and stats prove that too

[ginobli2311]

Not wanting to make this into a Kobe vs MJ thread........I will stay on topic.

Shooting 50 percent was the norm for guards back in that era. If you guys go back and look at the stats, there were guards shooting better than Jordan.

It was the faster pace and man to man defense that allowed for these inflated stats amongst the players.

completely false. maybe for guards that scored around 15 to 20 a game. we are talking about putting up 30 plus points at 50%. no guards in the league were doing that.

compare the fg% of the ten highest ppg perimeter players in the 90s to now and i bet its a joke. i guarantee you that the ppg averages are much higher now for perimeter players and that efficiency is the same or better. which proves this era is much easier to score now from the perimeter. even further evidence is that so many more threes are taken now and even still the fg% is equal or better.

lol....learn how to use logic mate.

[Micku]

negative...Lebron is by FAR the best ever attacking the rim - and stats prove that too
Are there even stats in Jordan days to determine how good he shot around the rim?

Anyway, 80s were different. Not necessary bad defense, but different shot selection. Ray Allen took more 3s than possibly any team in the 80s. If Ray Allen were in the 80s, he would adjust to the culture and hit the mid instead of the 3. LeBron James shot more 3s than Jordan ever did. LeBron probably shot more 3s than the entire Bulls team in the 80s and early 90s. If LeBron would cut down on the 3s, then he would get a higher FG%. Another proof of this is eFG%, which takes the value of the 3 more than a 2. eFG% is higher today than it was in the 80s.

Same thing with every team in the league if they do it every night. You should notice as teams took more 3s, the league average FG% went down. It's not a coincidence. You'll start to notice more spacing around the 3pt line too later on in the 80s.

The 80s just attack the basket. They get close to the basket and just get into their spots. I also think LeBron would have it a little bit tougher attacking the rim back then because of the lack of spacing. They clog the paint.

[beermonsteroo]

negative...Lebron is by FAR the best ever attacking the rim - and stats prove that too

Which stats please?

In terms of attacking the rim no one comes close to Jordan 84-91.

[madmax]

Are there even stats in Jordan days to determine how good he shot around the rim?

Anyway, 80s were different. Not necessary bad defense, but different shot selection. Ray Allen took more 3s than possibly any team in the 80s. If Ray Allen were in the 80s, he would adjust to the culture and hit the mid instead of the 3. LeBron James shot more 3s than Jordan ever did. LeBron probably shot more 3s than the entire Bulls team in the 80s and early 90s. If LeBron would cut down on the 3s, then he would get a higher FG%. Another proof of this is eFG%, which takes the value of the 3 more than a 2. eFG% is higher today than it was in the 80s.

Same thing with every team in the league if they do it every night. You should notice as teams took more 3s, the league average FG% went down. It's not a coincidence. You'll start to notice more spacing around the 3pt line too later on in the 80s.

The 80s just attack the basket. They get close to the basket and just get into their spots. I also think LeBron would have it a little bit tougher attacking the rim back then because of the lack of spacing. They clog the paint.
do you even watch Lebron play today?:facepalm Basically any single time he starts to drive towards the rim, there are 2 or 3 guys shading him all the way to the rim - that's why all of Lebron's teams consist of three point specialists, feeding off his passes out of double or triple teams.

[Boda]

For guards the common FG% is around 45%. 40% for chuckers like Allen Iverson, 46-47% for star guards such as Wade and Kobe.

But MJ, he was able to consistently achieve 50%+ FG as a guard, also getting the scoring title each time, and during times when hand checking was allowed, how come he was able to do what no other guards could do.
So now consistently is 6 out of 15 because MJ only accomplished this feat 6 times out of 15 tries, and it really shouldnt be that hard for a player who doesnt really take 3 points shots. actually for a player who really only dunks & shoots mid jumpers thats pretty horrible.

Just to put this more into perspective for you through 15nba seasons MJ shot a lowly 1778 career 3pt shots making 581 of them.

Where as Kobe through 14yrs and around 10 games or so Has shot 3886 over twice as many, and has made 1321 of them.

As for Wade, through 7yrs and 10 or so games he has shot 884 3pt shots and made 257 of them. but Wade was kind of like MJ in the fact that he didnt really shoot 3pt shots. however the last 2 years Wade has changed that.

As for A.I. who I really dont like as a shooter anyways but since you wanted to put him in there with the top shooters I guess we can. Through 14yrs he has shot 3383 3pt shots making 1059 with a career FG% of .425

kobe has made almost as many as MJ shot, yet Kobes career FG% is .455 compared to Jordans .497, Wade has a .482 which is closer to MJ which makes since because both players were hesitant on the 3 pt shot.

MJ-15yrs-FG%.497 3ptA-1778
Kobe 14yrs-FG% .455 3ptA-3886
Wade-7ys-FG% .482 3ptA-884
AI-14yrs-FG% .425 3ptA-3383

Its hard to compare players from different times, but in this case I think its pretty obvious to say the least that Kobe is everybit the shooter MJ was, I might even say he was better, take over 2000 shots off of MJ's and throw them into 3pt Attempts. You do the math and it brings MJ's Average's down to around that of Kobe give or take a tenth of a point. But then again you have two players in different times. I dont want to knock MJ, but people shouldnt knock Kobe either

[ginobli2311]

So now consistently is 6 out of 15 because MJ only accomplished this feat 6 times out of 15 tries, and it really shouldnt be that hard for a player who doesnt really take 3 points shots. actually for a player who really only dunks & shoots mid jumpers thats pretty horrible.

Just to put this more into perspective for you through 15nba seasons MJ shot a lowly 1778 career 3pt shots making 581 of them.

Where as Kobe through 14yrs and around 10 games or so Has shot 3886 over twice as many, and has made 1321 of them.

As for Wade, through 7yrs and 10 or so games he has shot 884 3pt shots and made 257 of them. but Wade was kind of like MJ in the fact that he didnt really shoot 3pt shots. however the last 2 years Wade has changed that.

As for A.I. who I really dont like as a shooter anyways but since you wanted to put him in there with the top shooters I guess we can. Through 14yrs he has shot 3383 3pt shots making 1059 with a career FG% of .425

kobe has made almost as many as MJ shot, yet Kobes career FG% is .455 compared to Jordans .497, Wade has a .482 which is closer to MJ which makes since because both players were hesitant on the 3 pt shot.

MJ-15yrs-FG%.497 3ptA-1778
Kobe 14yrs-FG% .455 3ptA-3886
Wade-7ys-FG% .482 3ptA-884
AI-14yrs-FG% .425 3ptA-3383

Its hard to compare players from different times, but in this case I think its pretty obvious to say the least that Kobe is everybit the shooter MJ was, I might even say he was better, take over 2000 shots off of MJ's and throw them into 3pt Attempts. You do the math and it brings MJ's Average's down to around that of Kobe give or take a tenth of a point. But then again you have two players in different times. I dont want to knock MJ, but people shouldnt knock Kobe either

your post fails completely. its actually evidence of how much easier it is to score now. just look at the high fg% numbers of all the best current perimeter players in the league. now go look at the fg% numbers of the best perimeter players from 90s. now factor in that perimeter players now score more points per game, take more shots, take more threes.....yet their fg% as equal or better as a whole. LOL...why? because its far easier to score from the perimeter now.

its either that....or you think carmelo/durant/wade/lebron/ellis/melo are all on jordan's level or better offensively.

there is absolutely no way in hell any of these guys would be able to keep this efficiency with the rules of the mid 90s on defense. no way in hell. it would be laughable to watch kobe and lebron try to get shots up with defenders bumping them and hand checking them all game. physicality wears you down as a scorer. the fact that you really can't touch these guys goes way beyond play to play. physical defense wears you down. hard fouls wear you down. you could take away space back then....now you can't because if you press up you will get called for a foul right away. that is why it is so easy to get good looks from distance now. its not that lebron is a better shooter than perimeter players from the 90s.....he just simply gets better looks because of the limitations of defense now.

i just find it hilarious that nobody wants to talk about the real issues. and also....the reason league fg% was higher in the 90s is simply because the game was dominated by the post position. far more emphasis was put towards playing out of the post. this did two things:

1. it got teams more shots closer to the rim.
2. it opened up the floor more for shooters because there were so many great post players that demanded doubles.

the reason today's game has lower fg% is because its all perimeter oriented and a ton more 3s are taken.

its not hard to understand. the rules allow perimeter players to score the ball more easily and at a higher efficiency than the rules allowed for 90s players. its that simple. that is why jordan's numbers are so amazing. go back and look and see what the 2nd best perimter player was doing during those times year in year out. i highly doubt you will see even close to as many players averaging over 25 ppg and high efficiency from the perimeter like there are today.

[32jazz]

completely false. maybe for guards that scored around 15 to 20 a game. we are talking about putting up 30 plus points at 50%. no guards in the league were doing that.

compare the fg% of the ten highest ppg perimeter players in the 90s to now and i bet its a joke. i guarantee you that the ppg averages are much higher now for perimeter players and that efficiency is the same or better. which proves this era is much easier to score now from the perimeter. even further evidence is that so many more threes are taken now and even still the fg% is equal or better.

lol....learn how to use logic mate.

No guards were doing that? Because there weren't any capable because they were mostly 6'2/6'3 jumpshooters that MJ/Crexler were taking advantage of like the ones I listed earlier. Drexler shot over 50% 3 consecutive seasons & averaged nearly 30ppg & so did Dale Ellis(6'7) & he was mostly a jumpshooter.The 6'7 George Gervin averaged 51% for his career(up to mid 80's) as he took advantage of the undersized SG's of the era.

You & other Worshippers are too knuckleheaeded to admit that the majority of guards then were undersized 6'2/6'3 jumpshooters like:

Danny AInge-
Hornacek-
Dumars-
Lever-
Johnny Dawkins
Byron Scott- averaged 21 ppg in '88 on nearly 53% shooting
Andrew Toney-
Otis Birdsongs
Rory Sparrows
etc........


And despite being undersized most starting guards still shot near or over 50%
No guards besides a few of the big combo(versatile) ones even approached 30ppg & shot 50%(Drexler/MJ/Gervin/Ellis).


This premise that MJ was doing something special by shooting 50% OR BETTER IS SILLY. MOST GUARDS of the era DID IT.
And most didn't even think of taking that many shots unless they be labeled as selfish/ballhog as MJ was the first half of his career. Most weren't capable because they were undersized & couldn't score as easily as MJ/Drexler/Gervin did.


Anyone who says Defenses were better in the 80's know absolutely nothing about NBA basketball.

[Psileas]

completely false. maybe for guards that scored around 15 to 20 a game. we are talking about putting up 30 plus points at 50%. no guards in the league were doing that.

compare the fg% of the ten highest ppg perimeter players in the 90s to now and i bet its a joke. i guarantee you that the ppg averages are much higher now for perimeter players and that efficiency is the same or better. which proves this era is much easier to score now from the perimeter. even further evidence is that so many more threes are taken now and even still the fg% is equal or better.

lol....learn how to use logic mate.

Most of the 80's-90's highest scorers were forwards and centers. Today's rules favor guards taking more shots, but not necessarily shoot at higher percentages, since 3-pointers have dramatically increased. Even Jordan wasn't shooting at 52-53% any longer when he started relying more on his long range shooting.
Here's what you get for the last 3 decades:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1981&year_max=1990&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&lg_id=&franch_id=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=G&qual=&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=25&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=fg_pct

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1991&year_max=2000&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&lg_id=&franch_id=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=G&qual=&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=25&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=fg_pct

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2001&year_max=2010&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&lg_id=&franch_id=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=G&qual=&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=25&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=fg_pct


The 00's have a lot more high scoring guards, but their FG's% are not comparable. Lots of 3's taken. The 90's had very few high scoring guards and still a high number of 3's taken. The 80's had still few high scoring guards and a much lower number of 3's taken.

BTW, here's the list of 00's guards who scored more than 30 ppg, at more than 45% FG:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2000&year_max=2011&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&lg_id=&franch_id=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=G&qual=&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=30&c2stat=fg_pct&c2comp=gt&c2val=.45&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=ws

[Boda]

your post fails completely. its actually evidence of how much easier it is to score now. just look at the high fg% numbers of all the best current perimeter players in the league. now go look at the fg% numbers of the best perimeter players from 90s. now factor in that perimeter players now score more points per game, take more shots, take more threes.....yet their fg% as equal or better as a whole. LOL...why? because its far easier to score from the perimeter now.

its either that....or you think carmelo/durant/wade/lebron/ellis/melo are all on jordan's level or better offensively.

there is absolutely no way in hell any of these guys would be able to keep this efficiency with the rules of the mid 90s on defense. no way in hell. it would be laughable to watch kobe and lebron try to get shots up with defenders bumping them and hand checking them all game. physicality wears you down as a scorer. the fact that you really can't touch these guys goes way beyond play to play. physical defense wears you down. hard fouls wear you down. you could take away space back then....now you can't because if you press up you will get called for a foul right away. that is why it is so easy to get good looks from distance now. its not that lebron is a better shooter than perimeter players from the 90s.....he just simply gets better looks because of the limitations of defense now.

i just find it hilarious that nobody wants to talk about the real issues. and also....the reason league fg% was higher in the 90s is simply because the game was dominated by the post position. far more emphasis was put towards playing out of the post. this did two things:

1. it got teams more shots closer to the rim.
2. it opened up the floor more for shooters because there were so many great post players that demanded doubles.

the reason today's game has lower fg% is because its all perimeter oriented and a ton more 3s are taken.

its not hard to understand. the rules allow perimeter players to score the ball more easily and at a higher efficiency than the rules allowed for 90s players. its that simple. that is why jordan's numbers are so amazing. go back and look and see what the 2nd best perimter player was doing during those times year in year out. i highly doubt you will see even close to as many players averaging over 25 ppg and high efficiency from the perimeter like there are today.

Bird- career 24.3 ppg, .496 career FG pct.

Grant Hill- Career-17.8ppg, 48.6FG pct.(career derailed by injury)

Reggie Miller- 18.2ppg, .471 fg pct

Clyde Drexler- 20.4ppg, .472fg pct.

is this good, sure the only close to 25ppg is Bird, but for MJ to just automatically be enshrined as the G.O.A.T. you think his numbers would just kill everyone. They dont, and never have, MJ always took a lot of shots to get his points, much like with A.I.

You say its easier to get your shots off now a days, maybe thats true with the hand checking, but todays athletes jump higher, run faster, and just overall have a lot more explosion in their games.

You say that back then it was more post game? Im sure the Luc Longley's, Andrew Langs, Olden Polynice, Blair Rasmussen's where beasts right? You act like the NBA today plays zero defense, if todays nba athlete could play against those back in the 80's and early 90's they'd have a field day, they would make their defender come out to the line, then breeze past them with their speed & acceleration. The fact that you say it was that much harder to score inside back then is a complete joke upon MJ, he's supposed to be the best yet he won't/can't develop a 3pt shot? please explain

edit: I also forgot to mention that yes I think Durant/Melo/Lebron/wade are all on MJ's level offensively. Or atleast on their way so far. this doesnt mean that they have that clutch factor because thats a whole other topic, but as for strickly offensively yes I do. And dont be a tool and just throw players who score a lot into this conversation. also I would like to see some players who have a few more years in them

[dankok8]

MJ shooting >50% from the field is great but not that impressive. The league average was around 48%. Defensively, teams like Bad Boy Pistons, 86 Celtics are weaker than today's defensive juggernaughts like the Celtics and there are more athletic players today to contest Jordan. Hard fouls does not = defense.

Jordan was ahead of his time but he wouldnt dominate today's league like he did back then. MJ's high ppg was also due to high FGA compared to today's stars. For example LBJ's career high is 21FGA while Jordan had 22+FGA in 12/15 years in the league.

In 08-09, Lebron averaged 54-55% shooting from 2pt range. 3pt field goals reduced his FG% but that why we have eFG - Lebron's was 53% in '09 and 55% in '10, very comparable and in fact slightly surpassing MJ's career highs.

[Inactive]

So now consistently is 6 out of 15 because MJ only accomplished this feat 6 times out of 15 tries, and it really shouldnt be that hard for a player who doesnt really take 3 points shots. actually for a player who really only dunks & shoots mid jumpers thats pretty horrible. In case you didn't notice, MJ was injured, for 60+ games in one of those 15 seasons. He missed 60+ games in another due to retirement. Two of them came after a 4 year retirement, when he was 38-40, and had lost his athleticism, and even to some extent his shooting touch. MJ shot 50+% in almost all of his prime years, when he wasn't injured.


Just to put this more into perspective for you through 15nba seasons MJ shot a lowly 1778 career 3pt shots making 581 of them.

Where as Kobe through 14yrs and around 10 games or so Has shot 3886 over twice as many, and has made 1321 of them. Kobe's career 2p% is .484. Jordan's career 2p% is 51.4%.

In Jordan's prime (88-93, 24-30 years old) his 2p% was 53.9%. In Kobe's prime (03-08, 24-30 years old) his 2p% was 47.9%.

During Jordan's prime (88-93) league average fg% was .475. In those years, Jordan's FG% was .525, which is +.050 compared to the league average. During Kobe's prime (03-08), league average fg% was .449. In those years, Kobe's FG% was .449, which is +.000 compared to the league average.


Its hard to compare players from different times, but in this case I think its pretty obvious to say the least that Kobe is everybit the shooter MJ was, I might even say he was better, take over 2000 shots off of MJ's and throw them into 3pt Attempts. You do the math and it brings MJ's Average's down to around that of Kobe give or take a tenth of a point. But then again you have two players in different times. I dont want to knock MJ, but people shouldnt knock Kobe eitherYou're assuming that MJ's 3p% would stay the same, if he shot 5 times as many 3s. As I showed in my post, Jordan was more efficient than Kobe from inside the arc, and more efficient compared to the league average of his time. No matter how you want to look at it, Jordan was a more efficient, and prolific scorer than Kobe. I'm not trying to diminish Kobe's career, he's probably the #2 SG all time, but he falls short in the comparison with Jordan.

[KenneBell]

Kobe and LeBron would do just fine in the mid 90's IMO. They'd adjust.

As far as FG% is concerned, the trend towards more and more 3's is what brings modern guys down. It's a high risk, high reward shot.

[juju151111]

Bird- career 24.3 ppg, .496 career FG pct.

Grant Hill- Career-17.8ppg, 48.6FG pct.(career derailed by injury)

Reggie Miller- 18.2ppg, .471 fg pct

Clyde Drexler- 20.4ppg, .472fg pct.

is this good, sure the only close to 25ppg is Bird, but for MJ to just automatically be enshrined as the G.O.A.T. you think his numbers would just kill everyone. They dont, and never have, MJ always took a lot of shots to get his points, much like with A.I.

You say its easier to get your shots off now a days, maybe thats true with the hand checking, but todays athletes jump higher, run faster, and just overall have a lot more explosion in their games.

You say that back then it was more post game? Im sure the Luc Longley's, Andrew Langs, Olden Polynice, Blair Rasmussen's where beasts right? You act like the NBA today plays zero defense, if todays nba athlete could play against those back in the 80's and early 90's they'd have a field day, they would make their defender come out to the line, then breeze past them with their speed & acceleration. The fact that you say it was that much harder to score inside back then is a complete joke upon MJ, he's supposed to be the best yet he won't/can't develop a 3pt shot? please explain

edit: I also forgot to mention that yes I think Durant/Melo/Lebron/wade are all on MJ's level offensively. Or atleast on their way so far. this doesnt mean that they have that clutch factor because thats a whole other topic, but as for strickly offensively yes I do. And dont be a tool and just throw players who score a lot into this conversation. also I would like to see some players who have a few more years in them
MJ was averging 45%at 40 in this era. LOL at showing exactly wat he said not to do. Players with 25 ppg or over MJ shot 53% that same year your posting for them and no Wade,LJare not on MJ level scoring. They don't have the post moves, IQ,Midrange, and finishing abilty.

[juju151111]

ok lets look at the year MJ was launching 3s. 1990 where he took 3 a game. HE SHOT 53% that year.:facepalm wait i thought MJ would be in kobe land (45%) if he took that many 3s?

[Boda]

In case you didn't notice, MJ was injured, for 60+ games in one of those 15 seasons. He missed 60+ games in another due to retirement. Two of them came after a 4 year retirement, when he was 38-40, and had lost his athleticism, and even to some extent his shooting touch. MJ shot 50+% in almost all of his prime years, when he wasn't injured.

Kobe's career 2p% is .484. Jordan's career 2p% is 51.4%.

In Jordan's prime (88-93, 24-30 years old) his 2p% was 53.9%. In Kobe's prime (03-08, 24-30 years old) his 2p% was 47.9%.

During Jordan's prime (88-93) league average fg% was .475. In those years, Jordan's FG% was .525, which is +.050 compared to the league average. During Kobe's prime (03-08), league average fg% was .449. In those years, Kobe's FG% was .449, which is +.000 compared to the league average.

You're assuming that MJ's 3p% would stay the same, if he shot 5 times as many 3s. As I showed in my post, Jordan was more efficient than Kobe from inside the arc, and more efficient compared to the league average of his time. No matter how you want to look at it, Jordan was a more efficient, and prolific scorer than Kobe. I'm not trying to diminish Kobe's career, he's probably the #2 SG all time, but he falls short in the comparison with Jordan.
But the key to all this is MJ didnt have to go against the talent there is in the NBA today, I seriously wonder what Kobe would have done, and honestly if Kobe had played when MJ did, and MJ played when Kobe did, everyone would say Kobe is the GOAT simply because he would have been the one everyone say first. MJ isnt so far ahead of Kobe, and after Kobe gets his 6th ring, whether that be this year or in the future, Kobe haters will have nothing to go on. it just amazing what kobe is doing today, especially when teams have certain players on there respective teams designed simply to stop a certain player. Maybe it was before my time but I dont recall any one team going out and getting a certain player to stop someone like teams have done for Kobe. but hey maybe thats just me.

I dont worship Kobe like many people do, but I respect his game, and give him his due as he deserves it. Bottom line Kobe is right next to Jordan, they have basically the exact same game Jordan shot better 2pt Kobe shot better 3pt. Im sorry but I respect the 3pt game more then the easy layup or dunk of the 2pt game which is where you will see most of MJ's shots come from. where as Kobe's is mid-range to 3pt, that to me takes more skill then putting the ball in at point blank range, and doing it againt talent that is 4x what it was when Jordan played. Like I said somewhere else, most of todays 8th and 9th men off the bench would be teams 3rd or 4th options back then, and that alone should make what Kobe has done all the more impressive.

edit: also you want to complain about MJ's games well lets do this MJ has 1072 career games Kobe has 1033, almost 1 season. You want to complain about MJ's age, well couldnt the same be said for Kobe, who came straight from High School? Kobe's worst 2 shooting pct. came from his first 2 years in the league .417 & .428 if not for those 2 years his pct would be way higher. Kobe also didnt spend 3 years in college working on his game like Jordan did, and Kobe's career numbers would be a hell of a lot better if he did choose to go to college first, plus his ppg average would be way higher, also well we are at it, Jordan played 41,011 minutes compared to Kobe's 37,765 imagine what Kobe could have done with 3,500 more minutes, thats over a years worth of stats.

[Calabis]

Why wouldn't Kobe average 50% if he shot .6 better than MJ in 03?

Kobe would be shooting the same as MJ in that era.

Kobe can't do it now without hand checking and physical play, what the hell makes you think he could do it, if he has never sniffed it

[DKLaker]

MJ said it himself.....he didn't have the range to shoot 3's so he refined his post moves and mid range jumper. The 50% is overrated unless you can shoot 3's.

[juju151111]

But the key to all this is MJ didnt have to go against the talent there is in the NBA today, I seriously wonder what Kobe would have done, and honestly if Kobe had played when MJ did, and MJ played when Kobe did, everyone would say Kobe is the GOAT simply because he would have been the one everyone say first. MJ isnt so far ahead of Kobe, and after Kobe gets his 6th ring, whether that be this year or in the future, Kobe haters will have nothing to go on. it just amazing what kobe is doing today, especially when teams have certain players on there respective teams designed simply to stop a certain player. Maybe it was before my time but I dont recall any one team going out and getting a certain player to stop someone like teams have done for Kobe. but hey maybe thats just me.

I dont worship Kobe like many people do, but I respect his game, and give him his due as he deserves it. Bottom line Kobe is right next to Jordan, they have basically the exact same game Jordan shot better 2pt Kobe shot better 3pt. Im sorry but I respect the 3pt game more then the easy layup or dunk of the 2pt game which is where you will see most of MJ's shots come from. where as Kobe's is mid-range to 3pt, that to me takes more skill then putting the ball in at point blank range, and doing it againt talent that is 4x what it was when Jordan played. Like I said somewhere else, most of todays 8th and 9th men off the bench would be teams 3rd or 4th options back then, and that alone should make what Kobe has done all the more impressive.
How does Kobe playing back then changes anything? He will still be a low IQ shot taker. LOL MJ isn't the goat because he came first, its because MJ regular season,playoff and nba finals stats are better then Kobe. 4x more talent? Where di u get this crap from?? Your Goat defenders this era Bowen/artest/KG all got shitted by a past his prime MJ on sergery ridden knee and barley can run fast. Bowen said MJ was his hardest cover. Your so called 4x talent couldn't stop a 40 year old men from having the league avgere in terms of FG% and scoring 50+ points and gamewinners. So you expect me to believe they would stop 27 year old MJ.:wtf:

[Calabis]

yes. league average in the mid to late 80s was 49.1%. they didnt play defense. they just fouled harder

Uhh no!!!!!!!!!! They didn't shoot as many threes....freak'n Bird who could flat out shoot, topped out at 237 and only shot 200+ twice, you guys kill me with u'r bullshit, teams back then worked way more in the realm of the offense and took higher quality shots, its not the one on one, dribble the shot clock out, AND 1 crap of today

[juju151111]

MJ said it himself.....he didn't have the range to shoot 3's so he refined his post moves and mid range jumper. The 50% is overrated unless you can shoot 3's.
MJ shot 37% from 3s in 1990. He started that philosophy in 91 where he took less 3s. In 90 through he took 3 a game and still made 53%.

[Boda]

How does Kobe playing back then changes anything? He will still be a low IQ shot taker. LOL MJ isn't the goat because he came first, its because MJ regular season,playoff and nba finals stats are better then Kobe. 4x more talent? Where di u get this crap from?? Your Goat defenders this era Bowen/artest/KG all got shitted by a past his prime MJ on sergery ridden knee and barley can run fast. Bowen said MJ was his hardest cover. Your so called 4x talent couldn't stop a 40 year old men from having the league avgere in terms of FG% and scoring 50+ points and gamewinners. So you expect me to believe they would stop 27 year old MJ.:wtf:
You act like kobe never reached 50 points, hey did MJ ever reach 80? Cause Kobe did, see how that works. You also act like Kobe doesnt have a long list of game winning shots in his resume as well. And why would you lose your shooting touch as you get older? ive never even heard of that before, it may get tougher to get your shots, but if you have played basketball before then you should know that your shot doesnt go anywhere so that has nothing at all to do with this. And yes MJ may have shitted on them, but dont act like a young A.I. never shitted all over MJ, A.I. made MJ look stupid with his cross over, even the best defenders wont keep a player shut out all game, please come with something atleast relevent. The 4x the talent comes from the fact that in and again ill state this for you here i'll even put it in bold letters so maybe you'll understand this time Today's 8th or 9th man would be starting on most teams back then, they would probably be the teams 3rd or 4th option that is where the 4x the talent comes from, do you get it, or should I say it a bit slower next time?

[Calabis]

First of all you geeks are too obssessed with another man.

Secondly soft defense was a complaint of many fans of the 80's before the Pistons came along & started changing perceptions/emphasis on defense.


I picked 87/88 season since it was MJ's best Fg% to show it was 'routine for Starting Guards to shoot at or over 50%:

Byron Scott:oldlol: -52.7%(21ppg) 179 3pt att
Drexler -50.6%(25?ppg) 52 3pt att
Stockton- 57.4% 67 3pt att
Dale Ellis(jumpshooting specalist):rolleyes: -50.3%(26ppg) 240 led league
Vern Fleming-52.3%
J Hornacek-50.6%
Otis Smith- 50.6%
M Price- 50.6%


D Ainge-49.1%
P Pressey(49.1%
Moncrief(49%)
J Dawkins(49%)

That's 11/12 starting(minutes wise) guards out of only 23 teams to shoot at or above 50%:roll:

'Worst' of the rest

Fat Lever- 47%
Kenny Smith-47%
Dumars(47%

R Miller 'only' shot 47% ,but reeled off three consecutive 50 plus percent or better seasons
Magic uncharacteristically shot below 50% ,but averaged well over 50% for his career.

Defense was considered 'poor' during the 80's(many fans/journalist complained of it) ,but geeks on the internet who never saw a game then(too young) are attempting revisionist history.


Fact is the 80's laked strong defense & more than half the leagues teams(23) had a guard or multiple guards shooting at or over 50%.

I can keep going, but once you morons can get the concept of mid range easier to make than long range jumper through your skulls you may finally understand why a guy could shoot 50%, higher quality shots, usually equals more made shots

Kobe Bryant 300 or more attempt 7 times with his high 518....food for thought

[tpols]

You act like kobe never reached 50 points, hey did MJ ever reach 80? Cause Kobe did, see how that works. You also act like Kobe doesnt have a long list of game winning shots in his resume as well. And why would you lose your shooting touch as you get older? ive never even heard of that before, it may get tougher to get your shots, but if you have played basketball before then you should know that your shot doesnt go anywhere so that has nothing at all to do with this. And yes MJ may have shitted on them, but dont act like a young A.I. never shitted all over MJ, A.I. made MJ look stupid with his cross over, even the best defenders wont keep a player shut out all game, please come with something atleast relevent. The 4x the talent comes from the fact that in and again ill state this for you here i'll even put it in bold letters so maybe you'll understand this time Today's 8th or 9th man would be starting on most teams back then, they would probably be the teams 3rd or 4th option that is where the 4x the talent comes from, do you get it, or should I say it a bit slower next time?
you might have to say it slower:oldlol:

but seriously, players, especially perimeter ones, have gotten much much better. Better, quicker defenders, better offensive players. The game of basketball advances. MJ's flashy brand of basketball inspired a whole new generation of flashy, extremely talented perimeter players (vince carter, tmac, lebron, melo, wade, iverson, kobe, manu and many more). You really have to be blind to not notice this and kobe has beat them all out (except maybe lebron in terms of peak individual dominance).

[Calabis]

MJ said it himself.....he didn't have the range to shoot 3's so he refined his post moves and mid range jumper. The 50% is overrated unless you can shoot 3's.

When the hell did he say this moron????

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2CyJdCq-zU

[juju151111]

You act like kobe never reached 50 points, hey did MJ ever reach 80? Cause Kobe did, see how that works. You also act like Kobe doesnt have a long list of game winning shots in his resume as well. And why would you lose your shooting touch as you get older? ive never even heard of that before, it may get tougher to get your shots, but if you have played basketball before then you should know that your shot doesnt go anywhere so that has nothing at all to do with this. And yes MJ may have shitted on them, but dont act like a young A.I. never shitted all over MJ, A.I. made MJ look stupid with his cross over, even the best defenders wont keep a player shut out all game, please come with something atleast relevent. The 4x the talent comes from the fact that in and again ill state this for you here i'll even put it in bold letters so maybe you'll understand this time Today's 8th or 9th man would be starting on most teams back then, they would probably be the teams 3rd or 4th option that is where the 4x the talent comes from, do you get it, or should I say it a bit slower next time?
I never said KB didn't reach 50 pts. I said MJ regular season,playoff and nba finals stats are better. LOL at you don't lose shootinh touch, but stamina and speed go way down. It's no coincidence thier is like only 3 players to have 50+ gms at 40 hell most players quit before 40. LOL Everyone gets crossover including Kobe? How does that prove anything?? Kobe got cross by some european player who wasn't has good has Iverson. Which 8th and 9th man would be 3rd and 4th option in the 90s? Wtf are u smoking?

[Inactive]

But the key to all this is MJ didnt have to go against the talent there is in the NBA today, I seriously wonder what Kobe would have done, and honestly if Kobe had played when MJ did, and MJ played when Kobe did, everyone would say Kobe is the GOAT simply because he would have been the one everyone say first. MJ isnt so far ahead of Kobe, and after Kobe gets his 6th ring, whether that be this year or in the future, Kobe haters will have nothing to go on. it just amazing what kobe is doing today, especially when teams have certain players on there respective teams designed simply to stop a certain player. Maybe it was before my time but I dont recall any one team going out and getting a certain player to stop someone like teams have done for Kobe. but hey maybe thats just me. Kobe has rings, but his individual stats have never been top 5 all time. He gets a lot of praise for his leadership, work ethic, and mental toughness, but that's only been for the last couple years. If you read Phil Jackson's book about the 04 Lakers, you get the impression that he doesn't think much of Kobe. Not much time has passed since then. Kobe is still the same person that Phil essentially called a cancer to the team in the early 00s. The franchise just surrounded him with people that are submissive enough to coexist with him, because he was so popular.


I dont worship Kobe like many people do, but I respect his game, and give him his due as he deserves it. Bottom line Kobe is right next to Jordan, they have basically the exact same game Jordan shot better 2pt Kobe shot better 3pt. Im sorry but I respect the 3pt game more then the easy layup or dunk of the 2pt game which is where you will see most of MJ's shots come from. where as Kobe's is mid-range to 3pt, that to me takes more skill then putting the ball in at point blank range, and doing it againt talent that is 4x what it was when Jordan played. Like I said somewhere else, most of todays 8th and 9th men off the bench would be teams 3rd or 4th options back then, and that alone should make what Kobe has done all the more impressive.You make it sound like Jordan played in the 1950s. Jordan was playing against guys like Shaq, Reggie Miller, Chris Webber, etc. during the second half of his career. Kobe made a name for himself playing against the same competition, and putting up worse numbers. It's not like NBA players magically became more skilled and athletic in 1999, and ran the players from 93-98 off the floor. Shaqs numbers were pretty consistent from 1995-2003, so I don't know why you think Jordan's would've changed, if he peaked in the 00s.

[juju151111]

you might have to say it slower:oldlol:

but seriously, players, especially perimeter ones, have gotten much much better. Better, quicker defenders, better offensive players. The game of basketball advances. MJ's flashy brand of basketball inspired a whole new generation of flashy, extremely talented perimeter players (vince carter, tmac, lebron, melo, wade, iverson, kobe, manu and many more). You really have to be blind to not notice this and kobe has beat them all out (except maybe lebron in terms of peak individual dominance).
I waiting for these 8th and 9th options who would be better? List them please. Dr.J,Wilkins, isiah, Clyde, Reggie miller,Bernard King, and if u notice MJ has beat them out.

[scm5]

A few things comes to mind as to why Jordan is able to shoot 50% and Kobe isn't.

Jordan played in an era where the league average was very close to 50%. This was partly due to the fact that zone defense had not been "officially" implemented. Why would this change the game and the FG%? Because Zone defenses are weaker against ranged shooters than other defenses. This is why the league average 3FG per game has shot up while the average FG% has gone down.

So Jordan played in an era where it was easier to carve up defenses (man defense). This is not to say teams weren't playing zone defenses, but definitely not at the rate teams play defenses today. I also don't think Kobe or any other current NBA player would have been as good as Jordan was in dissecting defenses.

Another reason why Jordan might have had an easier time shooting over 50% was because the top defenders in his day were all shorter than him
(aside from Pippen who was on his team). Kobe has struggled over the years against players like Tayshaun Prince, Thabo, and Battier. These players are all excellent defenders that are bigger and longer than Kobe/MJ. This combined with zone defenses and how they tend to "funnel" anyone driving in has probably made a big impact on how Kobe plays the game. This is to say that Kobe adjusted for these defenses by playing more of a ranged game. If you will notice that in 04-05 and the seasons after, Kobe has been putting up far more 3 FGA's than before, AFTER Tayshaun Prince and Detroit's match-up zone defense showed him how effective a zone defense could be. 3FGA's were only slightly higher than Jordan's prior to these seasons. It was after 04-05 that Kobe's offensive game truly evolved into what it is today by incorporating more 3's into his game.

The last season why MJ was able to shoot over 50% was because of his hands. If you ever watched the way he played, he could do almost anything with the ball. On the drive, he could finish with finesse like Kobe. He could go up with tremendous power and athleticism like Lebron. AND, because his hands are much like Rondo's, he was able to finish craftily and give the ball whatever english he wanted.

[tpols]

I waiting for these 8th and 9th options who would be better? List them please. Dr.J,Wilkins, isiah, Clyde, Reggie miller,Bernard King, and if u notice MJ has beat them out.
lol dr. j made his runs in the early 80s you tool. Reggie miller wasn't even as good as ray allen, and he sure as **** wasn't even on tmac, lebron, or wade's level. Neither was clyde. The guy couldn't even drive to his left and isn't even close to on par with the 00s guys I listed. Bernard king? lol he played before MJ you idiot. The end of his career overlapped but you're not listing guys who played in the 90s during mj's reign. Why? Because you can't. They don't measure up. Scottie pippen is actually a better player than all of the guys you listed except for isiah and he was on MJ's team!

[ginobli2311]

Bird- career 24.3 ppg, .496 career FG pct.

Grant Hill- Career-17.8ppg, 48.6FG pct.(career derailed by injury)

Reggie Miller- 18.2ppg, .471 fg pct

Clyde Drexler- 20.4ppg, .472fg pct.

is this good, sure the only close to 25ppg is Bird, but for MJ to just automatically be enshrined as the G.O.A.T. you think his numbers would just kill everyone. They dont, and never have, MJ always took a lot of shots to get his points, much like with A.I.

You say its easier to get your shots off now a days, maybe thats true with the hand checking, but todays athletes jump higher, run faster, and just overall have a lot more explosion in their games.

You say that back then it was more post game? Im sure the Luc Longley's, Andrew Langs, Olden Polynice, Blair Rasmussen's where beasts right? You act like the NBA today plays zero defense, if todays nba athlete could play against those back in the 80's and early 90's they'd have a field day, they would make their defender come out to the line, then breeze past them with their speed & acceleration. The fact that you say it was that much harder to score inside back then is a complete joke upon MJ, he's supposed to be the best yet he won't/can't develop a 3pt shot? please explain

edit: I also forgot to mention that yes I think Durant/Melo/Lebron/wade are all on MJ's level offensively. Or atleast on their way so far. this doesnt mean that they have that clutch factor because thats a whole other topic, but as for strickly offensively yes I do. And dont be a tool and just throw players who score a lot into this conversation. also I would like to see some players who have a few more years in them

soooooooooooooooooooo

you can't find anyone other than really bird that scored over 25 ppg in the MJ era that did so on high efficiency? I think mullin did as well. you make my point for me. the game is far easier for perimeter players now. mj was blowing away the competition from the perimeter. nobody came close to putting up his numbers.

now? every year there are so many guys in that same scoring range. when you factor in how many threes are taken today and the fg% is still comparable....its just becomes laughable.

really? how is this even a debate?

[juju151111]

lol dr. j made his runs in the early 80s you tool. Reggie miller wasn't even as good as ray allen, and he sure as **** wasn't even on tmac, lebron, or wade's level. Neither was clyde. The guy couldn't even drive to his left and isn't even close to on par with the 00s guys I listed. Bernard king? lol he played before MJ you idiot. The end of his career overlapped but you're not listing guys who played in the 90s during mj's reign. Why? Because you can't. They don't measure up. Scottie pippen is actually a better player than all of the guys you listed except for isiah and he was on MJ's team!
Another dumb post. Clyde was on Tmac and Wade level. Reggie was has good has ray allen u dumb****. I was posting 80s players u dumbass MJ played against Clyde, Penny hardaway, Wilkins, and Reggie in the 90s. Why don't u post the 8th and 9th player who could be a 3rd option back then u ****tard.

[ginobli2311]

How does Kobe playing back then changes anything? He will still be a low IQ shot taker. LOL MJ isn't the goat because he came first, its because MJ regular season,playoff and nba finals stats are better then Kobe. 4x more talent? Where di u get this crap from?? Your Goat defenders this era Bowen/artest/KG all got shitted by a past his prime MJ on sergery ridden knee and barley can run fast. Bowen said MJ was his hardest cover. Your so called 4x talent couldn't stop a 40 year old men from having the league avgere in terms of FG% and scoring 50+ points and gamewinners. So you expect me to believe they would stop 27 year old MJ.:wtf:

totally agree.

and the league average fg% is very misleading. back in mj's days...post players took a ton more shots. now its all guard oriented. the fact that mj's fg% is higher than the league average in a post dominated game is far more impressive.

and LOL at the guy saying that defense is better now. really? so what happened in 2006 when a past his prime allen iverson scored 33 a game on good efficiency.

you people are morons. plain and simple. lol at thinking the defense today is better. its just laughable.

[tpols]

Another dumb post. Clyde was on Tmac and Wade level. Reggie was has good has ray allen u dumb****. I was posting 80s players u dumbass MJ played against Clyde, Penny hardaway, Wilkins, and Reggie in the 90s. Why don't u post the 8th and 9th player who could be a 3rd option back then u ****tard.
If a coach had to decide between a 30/5/5 50% wade or a 32/6/6 46% tmac or a 25/6/6 47% clyde who are they picking?:oldlol: You're a clown bro. And don't even bring up defense because tmac did this with hand checking rules AND zone defense in place. Just face it. Perimeter players are more talented today than they were in the 90s. The MJ brand of basketball, the athleticism, the whole game is evolving. The fact that wade and lebron are better than any 90s perimeter player other than MJ should tell you this. Shit I would take tmac over all of them too. Just because he doesn't have career accomplishments doesn't mean he couldn't play. I'd LOVE to see you support your argument with stats.:roll:

[chazzy]

soooooooooooooooooooo

you can't find anyone other than really bird that scored over 25 ppg in the MJ era that did so on high efficiency? I think mullin did as well. you make my point for me. the game is far easier for perimeter players now. mj was blowing away the competition from the perimeter. nobody came close to putting up his numbers.

now? every year there are so many guys in that same scoring range. when you factor in how many threes are taken today and the fg% is still comparable....its just becomes laughable.

really? how is this even a debate?
George Gervin

1979-80: 33.1 PTS (.528 FG%)
1981-82: 32.3 PTS (.500 FG%)

Adrian Dantley

1980-81: 30.7 PTS (.559 FG%)
1981-82: 30.3 PTS (.570 FG%)
1982-83: 30.7 PTS (.580 FG%)
1983-84: 30.6 PTS (.558 FG%)

Mark Aguire

1983-84: 29.5 PTS (.524 FG%)

Kiki Vandeseghe

1983-84: 29.4 PTS (.558 FG%)

Mark Aguire

1983-84: 29.5 PTS (.524 FG%)

Bernard King

1984-85: 32.9 PTS (.530 FG%)

Alex English

1985-86: 29.8 PTS (.504 FG%)
1986-87: 28.6 PTS (.503 FG%)

Larry Bird

1987-88: 29.9 PTS (.527 FG%)

I agree that a lot less 3 pointers were taken, and players generally had much better midrange games, which accounted for the increased FG%. But the pace was definitely higher, more fastbreaks etc.

[ginobli2311]

A few things comes to mind as to why Jordan is able to shoot 50% and Kobe isn't.

Jordan played in an era where the league average was very close to 50%. This was partly due to the fact that zone defense had not been "officially" implemented. Why would this change the game and the FG%? Because Zone defenses are weaker against ranged shooters than other defenses. This is why the league average 3FG per game has shot up while the average FG% has gone down.

So Jordan played in an era where it was easier to carve up defenses (man defense). This is not to say teams weren't playing zone defenses, but definitely not at the rate teams play defenses today. I also don't think Kobe or any other current NBA player would have been as good as Jordan was in dissecting defenses.

Another reason why Jordan might have had an easier time shooting over 50% was because the top defenders in his day were all shorter than him
(aside from Pippen who was on his team). Kobe has struggled over the years against players like Tayshaun Prince, Thabo, and Battier. These players are all excellent defenders that are bigger and longer than Kobe/MJ. This combined with zone defenses and how they tend to "funnel" anyone driving in has probably made a big impact on how Kobe plays the game. This is to say that Kobe adjusted for these defenses by playing more of a ranged game. If you will notice that in 04-05 and the seasons after, Kobe has been putting up far more 3 FGA's than before, AFTER Tayshaun Prince and Detroit's match-up zone defense showed him how effective a zone defense could be. 3FGA's were only slightly higher than Jordan's prior to these seasons. It was after 04-05 that Kobe's offensive game truly evolved into what it is today by incorporating more 3's into his game.

The last season why MJ was able to shoot over 50% was because of his hands. If you ever watched the way he played, he could do almost anything with the ball. On the drive, he could finish with finesse like Kobe. He could go up with tremendous power and athleticism like Lebron. AND, because his hands are much like Rondo's, he was able to finish craftily and give the ball whatever english he wanted.


nope. wrong again.

for the last ****ing time. the league average fg% was higher in mj's day because the game was dominated by post players. they got better shots closer to the basket and far less threes were taken. thats it. the defense was actually much better against perimeter players. in fact....its not close at all.

use logic. are you people really this dumb.

as for kobe. he also struggles against any type of physical defense regardless of size. ray allen and tony allen cause huge problems for kobe. LOL....imagine kobe trying to score on joe dumars....if you don't know (you probably don't)...dumars was a world class defender and very physical. jordan called him his toughest matchup. he would own kobe. just like any team that would be allowed to push kobe around would.

you act like these players were midgets or something. defense is not based on size or athleticism. dan majerle was a good defender because he was strong and took proper angles. same with stockton. lol.....you make it sound like kobe only struggles against size. not true. he mainly struggles against physical defense. what did mj's era have? physical defense.

its just unreal to me that we are still debating this bs.

perimeter defense is much worse today than it was back in the mj era. its just a fact people. allen iverson scored 33 a game for a season past his prime. give it a rest. its getting old now.

[glidedrxlr22]

Players in Jordan’s era usually had 3-4 years of college experience. Fundamentals were better back then. Field goal percentages were better eventhough defense back then allowed more contact. Look at the way some of the great 80s teams played…..good team ball. Alot of the current stars had almost no college experience….they’re learning on the fly. No way Kobe would ever have gotten up to 50%, not even 49%. He can’t even do that in today’s game where he can’t be looked at wrong without the ref bailing him out.

[macpierce]

kobe has bad shot selection unlike MJ, also kobe isnt as good as a finisher as MJ, MJ also scored more closer to the basket I believe

[ginobli2311]

George Gervin

1979-80: 33.1 PTS (.528 FG%)
1981-82: 32.3 PTS (.500 FG%)

Adrian Dantley

1980-81: 30.7 PTS (.559 FG%)
1981-82: 30.3 PTS (.570 FG%)
1982-83: 30.7 PTS (.580 FG%)
1983-84: 30.6 PTS (.558 FG%)

Mark Aguire

1983-84: 29.5 PTS (.524 FG%)

Kiki Vandeseghe

1983-84: 29.4 PTS (.558 FG%)

Mark Aguire

1983-84: 29.5 PTS (.524 FG%)

Bernard King

1984-85: 32.9 PTS (.530 FG%)

Alex English

1985-86: 29.8 PTS (.504 FG%)
1986-87: 28.6 PTS (.503 FG%)

Larry Bird

1987-88: 29.9 PTS (.527 FG%)

I agree that a lot less 3 pointers were taken, and players generally had much better midrange games, which accounted for the increased FG%. But the pace was definitely higher, more fastbreaks etc.


some of those are really before the time frame we are discussing. but do you see my point? now compare that to the 7 or so guys a year scoring over 25 from the perimeter now on over 45% from the field.

you won't find it dude. its far easier to score from the perimeter now. fact.

10 players in 06 scored more than 25 ppg from the perimeter. 3 players scored over 31 a game from the perimeter. come on man. seriously. the game changed with defensive limitations over the last decade. its all perimeter now. the simple fact that fg% has pretty much remained the same for perimeter players even though scoring has gone up (which means volume has gone up) and a ton more threes are taken seals the deal.

either you think that gilbert arenas/redd/ellis is an elite scorer in nba history.....or the rules got easier for scoring as a guard.

[juju151111]

If a coach had to decide between a 30/5/5 50% wade or a 32/6/6 46% tmac or a 25/6/6 47% clyde who are they picking?:oldlol: You're a clown bro. And don't even bring up defense because tmac did this with hand checking rules AND zone defense in place. Just face it. Perimeter players are more talented today than they were in the 90s. The MJ brand of basketball, the athleticism, the whole game is evolving. The fact that wade and lebron are better than any 90s perimeter player other than MJ should tell you this. Shit I would take tmac over all of them too. Just because he doesn't have career accomplishments doesn't mean he couldn't play. I'd LOVE to see you support your argument with stats.:roll:
You posted one season and not Clyde best season. 27/6/8 50% you dumb**** while u pick Wade and Tmac best season try again u clown.

[juju151111]

some of those are really before the time frame we are discussing. but do you see my point? now compare that to the 7 or so guys a year scoring over 25 from the perimeter now on over 45% from the field.

you won't find it dude. its far easier to score from the perimeter now. fact.
Wat was the league avg of 87-93? thats all that matters.

[tpols]

some of those are really before the time frame we are discussing. but do you see my point? now compare that to the 7 or so guys a year scoring over 25 from the perimeter now on over 45% from the field.

you won't find it dude. its far easier to score from the perimeter now. fact.

10 players in 06 scored more than 25 ppg from the perimeter. 3 players scored over 31 a game from the perimeter. come on man. seriously. the game changed with defensive limitations over the last decade. its all perimeter now. the simple fact that fg% has pretty much remained the same for perimeter players even though scoring has gone up (which means volume has gone up) and a ton more threes are taken seals the deal.

either you think that gilbert arenas/redd/ellis is an elite scorer in nba history.....or the rules got easier for scoring as a guard.
the average talent in the nba has gone up for perimeter players.:confusedshrug:

[ginobli2311]

Wat was the league avg of 87-93? thats all that matters.

what does the league average mean? that makes no sense.

the game was different back then. more shots were taken by post players. now almost all the shots are taken by guards.

why don't you show me the ten highest ppg scorers each year from 87-93 and compare that from 04 to 10.

please do this. can't wait to see how much of a joke the list is. there are around 7 to 10 guys a year that score over 25 a game from the perimeter now. back then i bet its only like 1 or 2 max....and 1 of them will be jordan. so i bet its actually really rare.

please someone look this up. it will shut these idiots up finally.

[Svendiggity]

I'm not getting into this idiotic debate with you guys.

But for the record: with advancements in training, diets, weight-lifting, knowledge from previous generations etc. athletes are faster, stronger, more agile, more dexterous today.

Why do you think the rule changes were made a couple years ago? If you think scoring was down because basketball players are getting worse, then shame on you.

[ginobli2311]

the average talent in the nba has gone up for perimeter players.:confusedshrug:

agreed. but at the same time. nobody is going to convince me that michael redd or gilbert arenas are in the same class of scorer as a mullin.

so the point really holds no water. the fact remains that there were all time great perimeter players playing in that era and very few were able to score over 25 a game on good efficiency because it was harder to do it.

[juju151111]

the average talent in the nba has gone up for perimeter players.:confusedshrug:
oh plz 06 Perimeter players avg went up. Throw Prime MJ in that year and his stats might blow mind. "Hey MJ wat you think about playing where noone czn touch and bigs have to leave paint in 3 secs?" MJ-" I might avg 38 with 11fts a gm. These guys can't keep up with me has it is".

[chazzy]

some of those are really before the time frame we are discussing. but do you see my point? now compare that to the 7 or so guys a year scoring over 25 from the perimeter now on over 45% from the field.

you won't find it dude. its far easier to score from the perimeter now. fact.

10 players in 06 scored more than 25 ppg from the perimeter. 3 players scored over 31 a game from the perimeter. come on man. seriously. the game changed with defensive limitations over the last decade. its all perimeter now. the simple fact that fg% has pretty much remained the same for perimeter players even though scoring has gone up (which means volume has gone up) and a ton more threes are taken seals the deal.

either you think that gilbert arenas/redd/ellis is an elite scorer in nba history.....or the rules got easier for scoring as a guard.
The rules got tight in 06, but outside of that season it hasn't been too ridiculous. And yeah I agree it's easier to penetrate/get to the line now. But there were around 7 guys a year averaging more than 25 in the late 80s (I think)

[juju151111]

what does the league average mean? that makes no sense.

the game was different back then. more shots were taken by post players. now almost all the shots are taken by guards.

why don't you show me the ten highest ppg scorers each year from 87-93 and compare that from 04 to 10.

please do this. can't wait to see how much of a joke the list is. there are around 7 to 10 guys a year that score over 25 a game from the perimeter now. back then i bet its only like 1 or 2 max....and 1 of them will be jordan. so i bet its actually really rare.

please someone look this up. it will shut these idiots up finally.
No i ment FG% avg and MJ in his 37ppg year was crazy. The closes to him was 29ppg .

[ginobli2311]

The rules got tight in 06, but outside of that season it hasn't been too ridiculous. And yeah I agree it's easier to penetrate/get to the line now. But there were around 7 guys a year averaging more than 25 in the late 80s (I think)

there were. but i though we were discussing the 90s. if we are talking about the 80s then the scoring from the perimeter is more in line with today's game. although i believe it has been easier the last 8 or so years.

[OldSchoolBBall]

BI seriously wonder what Kobe would have done, and honestly if Kobe had played when MJ did, and MJ played when Kobe did, everyone would say Kobe is the GOAT simply because he would have been the one everyone say first. MJ isnt so far ahead of Kobe, and after Kobe gets his 6th ring, whether that be this year or in the future, Kobe haters will have nothing to go on. it just amazing what kobe is doing today, especially when teams have certain players on there respective teams designed simply to stop a certain player. Maybe it was before my time but I dont recall any one team going out and getting a certain player to stop someone like teams have done for Kobe. but hey maybe thats just me.

Wow, what a joke this entire post is. :oldlol: Good to see Kobe fans will NEVER get it through their head that Kobe is only about 90% as good as Jordan on their average days. FACT. And a 10% difference in impact is pretty significant for players at this level. '89-'93 Jordan would murder any version of Kobe. Deal with it.

[tpols]

oh plz 06 Perimeter players avg went up. Throw Prime MJ in that year and his stats might blow mind. "Hey MJ wat you think about playing where noone czn touch and bigs have to leave paint in 3 secs?" MJ-" I might avg 38 with 11fts a gm. These guys can't keep up with me has it is".
Dude your posts are barely legible. And what MJ says he would do and what he would've done are two different things.

[OldSchoolBBall]

'88-'93 Jordan EASILY averages 32.5 pts/6+ reb/6 ast/2.5 stl/1 blk/50% FG/58-59% TS shooting at a MINIMUM today. This is not even debatable. He could easily have a season or two of 36 ppg/47-48% FG/56-57% TS from '06-'present.

[DTD]

His 3 point Field Goal attempts were far fewer than what many SG's attempt today.

- Also, for the record, In 1994-96, 95-96, 96-97 the 3pt line was moved over a foot closer (the college 3pt line) to try and increase scoring.

[juju151111]

Dude your posts are barely legible. And what MJ says he would do and what he would've done are two different things.
I justfind it funny how new era people couldn't shutdown a 38-40 year old men with injury ridden knees. MJ is from the 80s for godsake the "Weak Era" Look how slow he is moving has a wizard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHwhLbW08_8&feature=related lol at 38 he was avging 25ppg on 46%at allstar break in 02 before his knee injury. How is this possible for the weak era guard? Its not like he was blowing pass people either, BBIQ to the fullest and Kobe at age 38 won't be able to do this. Bowen/Artest can't guard a weak era guard from past his prime?:wtf:

[catch24]

He had superb shot selection, rarely forced shots, and his midrange game was mad efficient. A guy that can take it to the paint at will and who's jumpshot is near automatic should equate to at least 50% shooting.

[chazzy]

'88-'93 Jordan EASILY averages 32.5 pts/6+ reb/6 ast/2.5 stl/1 blk/50% FG/58-59% TS shooting at a MINIMUM today. This is not even debatable. He could easily have a season or two of 36 ppg/47-48% FG/56-57% TS from '06-'present.
Yup. It's hard to debate this

[Glide2keva]

what does the league average mean? that makes no sense.

the game was different back then. more shots were taken by post players. now almost all the shots are taken by guards.

why don't you show me the ten highest ppg scorers each year from 87-93 and compare that from 04 to 10.

please do this. can't wait to see how much of a joke the list is. there are around 7 to 10 guys a year that score over 25 a game from the perimeter now. back then i bet its only like 1 or 2 max....and 1 of them will be jordan. so i bet its actually really rare.

please someone look this up. it will shut these idiots up finally.
I don't have it off hand, but I can tell you the top scorers in the league used to be mostly big men, post players. It changed in the 04-05 season I think.

[-23-]

'88-'93 Jordan EASILY averages 32.5 pts/6+ reb/6 ast/2.5 stl/1 blk/50% FG/58-59% TS shooting at a MINIMUM today. This is not even debatable. He could easily have a season or two of 36 ppg/47-48% FG/56-57% TS from '06-'present.


This. But I think his stats would be even higher given a higher amount of FT being shot.

34PPG 6rb 7 ast 3 stl 1 blk 54% fg

[Papaya Petee]

Because he was a better scorer than Kobe and Wade. Didn't take stupid shots.
:roll: :roll: @ Wade being a 46-47% player

48% career shot 50% in 2005-2006

[B-Easy]

Wade is at 49% right now and he usually finishes stronger than he starts....so I expect him to be over 50% at seasons end.

[FlashDwyaneWade3]

Wade is at 49% right now and he usually finishes stronger than he starts....so I expect him to be over 50% at seasons end.
D-Wade shot 49% from the field while averaging 30 PPG in '09. I also think he'll get to 50% this year since he's only averaging 24 PPG.

[Big#50]

Good shot selection. Master of midrange. Master at finishing near the rim.

[Boda]

soooooooooooooooooooo

you can't find anyone other than really bird that scored over 25 ppg in the MJ era that did so on high efficiency? I think mullin did as well. you make my point for me. the game is far easier for perimeter players now. mj was blowing away the competition from the perimeter. nobody came close to putting up his numbers.

now? every year there are so many guys in that same scoring range. when you factor in how many threes are taken today and the fg% is still comparable....its just becomes laughable.

really? how is this even a debate?
No I didnt say that, I took their career averages, wasnt aware you were talking about only a couple of seasons thats easy, actually a poster already listed a few after your response, but if you seriously want me to go through and find the players I will.

No one is debating whether or not the game is easier for Guards today, that was never my initial statement. What i've said and what im saying is that Kobe is on par with MJ right now, the real only difference between the two is 2pt % & 3pt % Jordan better at the 2pt% Kobe at the 3pt%, personally i'd rather take the 3pt shooter.

Jordan didnt do anything that much more spectatcular stats wise then other players, he simply had that clutch factor, the same clutch factor that Kobe has. Also I hope you can score almost 30ppg when you put up 20-30shots per game. damn near a point per shot, which really isnt that great when you think about it. But wait I guess anyone could score that much jacking up those kind of shots, how great of a player would Robert Horry have been putting up that many shots? Kobe puts up similar stats to MJ yet kobe only puts up 15-20 shots per game big difference.

[Round Mound]

Kobe did not and does not have Lebron-Jordan-Drexler-Erving type of Open Floor Game for Easy High % Shots Going to The Rim

Kobe did and does not have the Hands, Upper Body Strength and 1s Step to go by his opponent and look for High % Shots Going to The Rim

Kobe is the best Posy Game SG today while i the 80s it was the common: 80s u had MONSTER MID RANGE GAMES: Danltey, King, Aguirre, Barkley, Jordan etc

Jordan is the Strongest and Most Athletic SG Ever if u include Body Strength, Potence, Agility. Quicknes, 1s Step Speed in Relation to Weight.

His Hang Time also is The Best Ever able to stay in the air with thos Large hands and Upper body Strength to Control the Shot on Both Sides

That`s why he could shoot 50% FG taking 20 FGAs PG

[ginobli2311]

No I didnt say that, I took their career averages, wasnt aware you were talking about only a couple of seasons thats easy, actually a poster already listed a few after your response, but if you seriously want me to go through and find the players I will.

No one is debating whether or not the game is easier for Guards today, that was never my initial statement. What i've said and what im saying is that Kobe is on par with MJ right now, the real only difference between the two is 2pt % & 3pt % Jordan better at the 2pt% Kobe at the 3pt%, personally i'd rather take the 3pt shooter.

Jordan didnt do anything that much more spectatcular stats wise then other players, he simply had that clutch factor, the same clutch factor that Kobe has. Also I hope you can score almost 30ppg when you put up 20-30shots per game. damn near a point per shot, which really isnt that great when you think about it. But wait I guess anyone could score that much jacking up those kind of shots, how great of a player would Robert Horry have been putting up that many shots? Kobe puts up similar stats to MJ yet kobe only puts up 15-20 shots per game big difference.

what?

kobe scores almost 5 points less per game for their careers on nearly 5% worse efficiency.

might as well say that paul pierce is as good or better than kobe. pierce's numbers are a lot closer to kobe's than kobe's are to MJ.

christ. this forum sucks ass.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

http://headblitz.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/jordan-vs-kobe-580x659.jpg

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan didnt do anything that much more spectatcular stats wise then other players, he simply had that clutch factor, the same clutch factor that Kobe has.

The fvck is this nonsense? :oldlol: Jordan is one of the 3 most statistically dominant players of all time. The only guys in his league are KAJ and Wilt. Shaq and Lebron are in the top 5 too, but they didn't do it for as long (particularly Lebron). You clearly have no clue what you're talking about.

[Jasper]

HorryismyMVP - thanks dude :applause:

---------
Back on topic about Jordan : Seldom he forced shots and if and when he did so , he put the percentages in his favor to make the shot , pass on the shot , or get fouled.
Seldom in all the years I watch him ... he forced himself out of his comfort zone.
Over all as a SG he had bad nights.
But he really used his athletic abilities and his HEAD to play and that included his shot selection.

How many times did he force a shoot with 2 or 3 defenders on him =SELDOM if ever.
----------------
Personally I believe comparing Kobe to Jordan is a waste of time // Simply because they are two different players , that quite frankly
play totally different. Kobe has proven that.
If we were to ever compare Kobe to Jordan , he would first need to bring his defensive 'A' game every night to remotely be compared with Jordan.
Remember Jordan won Defensive player of the year ... besides multiple 1st team .

[LA_Showtime]

Deadly mid-range game, crazy athletic ability, high basketball IQ, and those hands... those God-given hands gave him the ability to finish with contact.

[BlackJordan]

Goat

[MakeHistory78]

http://headblitz.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/jordan-vs-kobe-580x659.jpg
http://media.mlive.com/spartans_impact/photo/larry-johnson-magic-johnson-7311a6b2066dc23a_large.jpg