Scottie Pippen appreciation thread.

[sh0wtime]

Maybe time has erased a little of my memory of Pippen, but correct me if I'm wrong, I could not recall a single flaw in his game. Many, many times I'd watch a Bulls game and leave thinking Pippen was a more complete player than Michael Jordan. Not a better player, mind you.

Pippen could have been an All Star at PG, SG, SF, or PF. He would have excelled in any game plan or under any coach. His instincts, athleticism and size was an unstoppable combination. He was going to have an impact on the game, you just never knew how. Whether it was shutting down Mark Jackson at PG or giving Barkley fits at PF .... it didn't seem to matter. If that failed, he could easily hand out 10 assists, control the boards, or score 30 points on you. He also had a killer instinct.

I think he's probably the best defender I've ever seen play. He was great on the ball, but probably the best double teamer ever. he was also extremely smart defensively

This is my favorite highlight videos of him, must watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9vFHYVXtRk&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1YchiFv-5M&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tObgS6uUVjQ&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zyzx6ISXQGw&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5mL1L57rtI&feature=player_embedded

[Ron Artest]

Batum is better.

[Premeditated]

Yes.

About time.

He was the most versatile on the team. He never had no flaws. He was the best defender and the best rebounding perimeter player in that whole era. He surely made life easier for his teammates. He took over when needed to.

[G.O.A.T]

The only thing he couldn't do was take over a game wit his scoring. He really didn't have many moves to create his own shot and was a great shooter off the dribble.

That's not much of a weakness considering he was still a 20 point scorer, but it was very rare that Pippen went for 30.

I always liked his demeanor on the court, so calm and consistent he never seemed to get rattled. And very few players were as smooth.

Defensively I think he gets a little overrated now (only by people who say he is one of the best few defensive players ever), but that's not to say he wasn't one of the best perimeter defenders of his era, because he was. The best part about his defense is that he accepted that role, as the #1 defensive option. He guarded everyone from Isiah Thomas to Chris Webber to Larry Johnson and everyone in between.

[Ne 1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbjBJy6AWQA

[hitmanyr2k]

The only thing he couldn't do was take over a game wit his scoring. He really didn't have many moves to create his own shot and was a great shooter off the dribble.

That's not much of a weakness considering he was still a 20 point scorer, but it was very rare that Pippen went for 30.

I don't think that's true at all. It's not that Pippen couldn't take over a game with his offense. It was more like he wouldn't. I saw plenty of games where Pippen could have easily gone for big scoring numbers if he applied himself but he would pull back and not interrupt the flow of the team...and that's to his detriment because most idiot NBA fans think pretty scoring numbers are more important than everything else. Pippen was never some gloryhound shotjacker that seemed to be worried about how many points he was putting up. It was all about getting the win. I like to call him the Tim Duncan of small forwards because Tim Duncan has played with that same "team" demeanor his entire career.

[step_back]

Batum is better.

I hope your joking:facepalm

[the_wise_one]

He is just not clutch. He's like KG, only less insane and not as rich.

[G.O.A.T]

I don't think that's true at all. It's not that Pippen couldn't take over a game with his offense. It was more like he wouldn't. I saw plenty of games where Pippen could have easily gone for big scoring numbers if he applied himself but he would pull back and not interrupt the flow of the team...and that's to his detriment because most idiot NBA fans think pretty scoring numbers are more important than everything else. Pippen was never some gloryhound shotjacker that seemed to be worried about how many points he was putting up. It was all about getting the win. I like to call him the Tim Duncan of small forwards because Tim Duncan has played with that same "team" demeanor his entire career.

Well, I am really at my wits end with "could have" arguments. If you believe that, that's fine, I don't think it's crazy, but the facts are he never really took over a playoff game with his scoring, not even once. I think in his Bulls career his playoff high was like 34 and he only had five 30+ games. That includes the year without Michale where he scored a playoff high of 29 I believe.

That's what I base my opinion on.

I also don't think he would have been a good leader, but he never really had to be so i don't hold that against him. As it is I believe it's between him and John Havilcek and Kevin McHale as the best complimentary star players of all-time. All guys who could play and guard multiple positions as well as score, rebound and pass.

[DeronMillsap]

My favorite dunk ever: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNw5WNX5-Is
I assume many share the same opinion.

[LA KB24]

My favorite dunk ever: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNw5WNX5-Is
I assume many share the same opinion.
:cheers:

[Teanett]

My favorite dunk ever: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNw5WNX5-Is
I assume many share the same opinion.
:rockon:

[Nash]

Yes, and please stop calling him "sidekick" or Robin. He's too good for that.

[Kurosawa0]

Yes, and please stop calling him "sidekick" or Robin. He's too good for that.

Scottie was great, but he was also a sidekick.

[the GIBBET]

Scottie was great, but he was also a sidekick.


This is such a retarded thing to say.

A team does not win 6 championships and set a record for wins in a season with just one "superstar." The year after Michael retired the first time, The Bulls went 55-27 and lost in 7 games to the Knicks in the 2nd round.

I didn't see Kobe doing that when Shaq or Pau weren't there, or Wade doing it without Shaq. I didn't see Pierce doing it before KG and Ray Allen were there.

Sometimes - I know this is hard to believe for people who believe everything Nike and Gatorade and ESPN tell them - there can be two or more players of equal importance to a championship team.

The Bulls are arguably the GREATEST DYNASTY in sports history. WTF does sidekick even mean??? Its just a dumb term that you've heard so you repeat it. Try actually thinking some time.

[kizut1659]

kind of overrated. Perfect sidekick but not good enough to be the main guy. Never scored close to 25 per game and did not even reach 20K points for his career.

His career post-Jordan really damaged my opinion of him. In 1999, Pippen was only 33 and with significantly less mileage than someone like Kobe now and what happened? An embarassing season in Houston capped by shooting 33% in the playoffs and then having the gall to blame Barkley. Then forcing a trade to Portland, settling into a pure role player mode and not stepping up (shooting 3 for 10) when Portland blew a 15 point lead in game 7 against the Lakers. Never saw second round of the playoffs afterwards.

So could Jordan have won without Pippen or another well-rounded all-star - no, of course not. Is Pippen a top 20/25 GOAT - not in my opinion .

[hitmanyr2k]

kind of overrated. Perfect sidekick but not good enough to be the main guy. Never scored close to 25 per game and did not even reach 20K points for his career.

His career post-Jordan really damaged my opinion of him. In 1999, Pippen was only 33 and with significantly less mileage than someone like Kobe now and what happened? An embarassing season in Houston capped by shooting 33% in the playoffs and then having the gall to blame Barkley. Then forcing a trade to Portland, settling into a pure role player mode and not stepping up (shooting 3 for 10) when Portland blew a 15 point lead in game 7 against the Lakers. Never saw second round of the playoffs afterwards.

So could Jordan have won without Pippen or another well-rounded all-star - no, of course not. Is Pippen a top 20/25 GOAT - not in my opinion .

Significantly less mileage?!? So someone that plays damn near 200 playoff games, two Olympics, goes through countless surgeries on his ankles, knees, foot, and back (had his 2nd back surgery after the '98 Finals) suddenly has "significantly" less mileage?

[hitmanyr2k]

This is such a retarded thing to say.

A team does not win 6 championships and set a record for wins in a season with just one "superstar." The year after Michael retired the first time, The Bulls went 55-27 and lost in 7 games to the Knicks in the 2nd round.

I didn't see Kobe doing that when Shaq or Pau weren't there, or Wade doing it without Shaq. I didn't see Pierce doing it before KG and Ray Allen were there.

Sometimes - I know this is hard to believe for people who believe everything Nike and Gatorade and ESPN tell them - there can be two or more players of equal importance to a championship team.

The Bulls are arguably the GREATEST DYNASTY in sports history. WTF does sidekick even mean??? Its just a dumb term that you've heard so you repeat it. Try actually thinking some time.

Agreed :oldlol:

Without their "sidekicks" all of those "superstars" are jack sh**. They would be doing the same thing Lebron was doing...putting up pretty numbers and going out in the first or second round. The only players I'll give a pass to are Duncan (for 2003) and Hakeem (for 1994). They won a title without legit all-star help.

[kizut1659]

Significantly less mileage?!? So someone that plays damn near 200 playoff games, two Olympics, goes through countless surgeries on his ankles, knees, foot, and back (had his 2nd back surgery after the '98 Finals) suddenly has "significantly" less mileage?

Well, from 1987 through 1998 Pippen played approximately 37,000 total regular season + playoff minutes. Kobe has played so far 45,000 total minutes. Maybe "significant" is not the best choice of words but the bottom line is that Pippen should not have dropped off as precipitously as he did. In terms of surgeries, Pippen did have that back surgery but noone expected him to become a role player in 1999 so it could not have been that much of a deal. As for 2 Olympics - yeah, I am sure 1992 Olympics with the Dream Team really tired Pippen out.

[Fuhqueue]

He was not an untalented scorer but he was definitely predisposed more towards facilitating. His instinct was to generate the best shot for the offense, not imposing his will on the game and carrying the scoring load. That was his psychology and his skill set, and ofc it provided the best value to the team for him to play like that because of his partner in crime. Most of all Pippen always impressed me with his cerebral playing style and ball IQ, filling in the blanks wherever needed and conducting the flow of the game. Knew exactly how to deploy his talents to be incredibly influential and versatile on both sides of the floor. His all-around game was a beautiful thing to behold. Pip :bowdown:

[97 bulls]

Before I start, id like to note how much hatred ive read in some of these posts. This is supposed to be an appreciation thread. But im reading things like "sidekick", "overrated", "not a leader", even "overrated defender". Just sad.

Anyways, I feel pippen along with being arguably the best perimeter defender ever, the best all-around player ever, a Six time nba champion, etc is the most underappreciated player ever. This man sacrificed his whole career in the name of winning. Dominated defensivly like a great defensive center, but from the forward position. And his skillset is unmatched in todays game. If we were to compare him today, id say the best similarity is lebron james. And I rank him in the top 20 all-time. Definately one of the greatest ever.

[Ne 1]

kind of overrated. Perfect sidekick but not good enough to be the main guy. Never scored close to 25 per game and did not even reach 20K points for his career.

His career post-Jordan really damaged my opinion of him. In 1999, Pippen was only 33 and with significantly less mileage than someone like Kobe now and what happened? An embarassing season in Houston capped by shooting 33% in the playoffs and then having the gall to blame Barkley. Then forcing a trade to Portland, settling into a pure role player mode and not stepping up (shooting 3 for 10) when Portland blew a 15 point lead in game 7 against the Lakers. Never saw second round of the playoffs afterwards.

So could Jordan have won without Pippen or another well-rounded all-star - no, of course not. Is Pippen a top 20/25 GOAT - not in my opinion .


The press loved to sing long songs about Jordan made Pippen. However, their songs are missing a few verses. For example. Why did Pippen have his finest seasons without Jordan? In 1994, Pippen averaged 22 ppg, 8.7 rpg, and 5.6 apg. In 1995, Pippen became only the second player in history (Dave Cowens was the first) to lead his team in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals. How could he do this without Jordan to make him better?

Furthermore, when deciding to retire, Jordan said over and over that he would not play without Pippen. While recovering from foot
surgery in December of 1997, Pippen said that he was not going to play with the Bulls when he was fully recovered. Jordan said that if he had known this, he would not have come back. Why? If Jordan makes everyone so much better, why not fill in Scott Burrell into Pippen

[Kurosawa0]

It makes you wonder who made who a better ball player, or at least who was the most valuable player to the win-loss column.

Come on. Pippen wouldn't even remotely say he was more valuable. He was Jordan's #1 cheerleader (Well, he and Barkley.)

[OldSchoolBBall]

For example. Why did Pippen have his finest seasons without Jordan? In 1994, Pippen averaged 22 ppg, 8.7 rpg, and 5.6 apg. In 1995, Pippen became only the second player in history (Dave Cowens was the first) to lead his team in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals. How could he do this without Jordan to make him better?

Pippen's 1992 season with Jordan was at least on par with his 1994 season, so that's just wrong. Plus, Pippen was entering his prime in 1994 anyway (age 28, when most players hit their peak in general), so that's expected.


Answer: Jordan didn’t make Pippen. Pippen made Pippen. Without Jordan, he is still the dominating defensive player, and he continues to be a complete player.

This is nonsense. Pippen does NOT become the same type of defensive and all-around player without Jordan's tutelage and without competing against him every day and pushing him. You're deluded if you think he'd be the exact same player in every respect had he not played with MJ. He might have still bee a great player (he had the physical tools, IQ, and work ethic, after all), but he wouldn't have been as great as he was on both ends. Like I've always said, it's not a coincidence that one of the greatest all-around players and best defenders of all time (Pippen) just happened to play with another of the best all-around players and defenders of all time (Jordan).


Think about it: Jordan never had a winning record apart from Pippen. Pippen played on many playoff teams in Portland and Houston without Jordan.

Jordan won 50 games in 1988 when Pippen was a foul-prone benchwarming 20 mpg scrub. Get real. It's not MJ's fault that he played 85% of his career with Pippen. Jordan only had his ROOKIE year and then 1987 to "prove" himself before Pippen was on the team. In '85 he was a rookie yet still led the Bulls to a substantial improvement and had one of the best rookie seasons in history. In '87 he had possibly the worst supporting cast in history (especially relative to the league) yet still won 40 games -- and he had to average 40+ ppg/53% FG in the Chicago wins to do it. That team was garbage outside of MJ.

So when was Jordan supposed to have a winning record exactly? As I've already noted, he won 50 games with a rookie Pippen, which, to any sane person (note: this excludes you), proves that he could have at least had a winning record with a decent team around him. Even in '88 his team was no great shakes, yet he won 50 games. But yeah, I'm sure it was 7 pt/4 reb foul-prone Pippen who was the reason for those wins! :oldlol:


It makes you wonder who made who a better ball player, or at least who was the most valuable player to the win-loss column.

It doesn't make any sane person wonder about those things, I'll tell you that much.

[Roundball_Rock]

Come on. Pippen wouldn't even remotely say he was more valuable. He was Jordan's #1 cheerleader (Well, he and Barkley.)

Yes, and who was Pippen's #1 cheerleader? Jordan, who called Pippen the best player in the league in 95' and was pushing for Pippen to be MVP in 96'.

:oldlol: at this "sidekick" label. "Sidekicks" are not legit MVP candidates.


So when was Jordan supposed to have a winning record exactly?

Jordan failed to elevate his teams to a winning record until his fourth season. That is awful compared to every other top-tier great. Why is the "clear GOAT" the one guy who is the exception? Practically everyone else took their (usually crappy team, remember, bad teams get high draft picks) to at least the conference finals within 3 years while MJ could not even get out the first round.


t's not MJ's fault that he played 85% of his career with Pippen.

Actually it is. Jordan refused to play--threatened to retire--without Pippen--vetoing at least one Pippen trade. Why? If he could win with any random all-star why not plug in a young all-star in place of Pippen and keep winning longer? Instead Jordan opted to stay with an aging, injury-prone superstar in the late 90's. For a man who loved challenges it indeed is quite strange that he never attempted to see how he could do without Scottie...

[Kurosawa0]

Yes, and who was Pippen's #1 cheerleader? Jordan, who called Pippen the best player in the league in 95' and was pushing for Pippen to be MVP in 96'.

:oldlol: at this "sidekick" label. "Sidekicks" are not legit MVP candidates.

Pippen was never a legit MVP candidate anymore than Chauncey Billups was one. His name might have been mentioned, but he was never seriously going to win the award.

I love how building up Pippen is now seen as the cool thing as long as it tarnishes Jordan.

Listen, those of us that actually watched the game back then will tell you, Pippen was a sidekick. He was a great, great player. One of the top 30 in league history, but that team lived and breathed Michael Jordan. He was it.

[magnax1]

Yes, and who was Pippen's #1 cheerleader? Jordan, who called Pippen the best player in the league in 95' and was pushing for Pippen to be MVP in 96'.

:oldlol: at this "sidekick" label. "Sidekicks" are not legit MVP candidates.



Jordan failed to elevate his teams to a winning record until his fourth season. That is awful compared to every other top-tier great. Why is the "clear GOAT" the one guy who is the exception? Practically everyone else took their (usually crappy team, remember, bad teams get high draft picks) to at least the conference finals within 3 years while MJ could not even get out the first round.



Actually it is. Jordan refused to play--threatened to retire--without Pippen--vetoing at least one Pippen trade. Why? If he could win with any random all-star why not plug in a young all-star in place of Pippen and keep winning longer? Instead Jordan opted to stay with an aging, injury-prone superstar in the late 90's. For a man who loved challenges it indeed is quite strange that he never attempted to see how he could do without Scottie...
That's mostly true, but the fact is that pretty much every top 20 player played with a player as good, or better then Pippen. Jordan was not any luckier then any top 10 player probably much less lucky then any other top 5 player.

[Duncan21formvp]

Yes, and who was Pippen's #1 cheerleader? Jordan, who called Pippen the best player in the league in 95' and was pushing for Pippen to be MVP in 96'.

:oldlol: at this "sidekick" label. "Sidekicks" are not legit MVP candidates.



Jordan failed to elevate his teams to a winning record until his fourth season. That is awful compared to every other top-tier great. Why is the "clear GOAT" the one guy who is the exception? Practically everyone else took their (usually crappy team, remember, bad teams get high draft picks) to at least the conference finals within 3 years while MJ could not even get out the first round.



Actually it is. Jordan refused to play--threatened to retire--without Pippen--vetoing at least one Pippen trade. Why? If he could win with any random all-star why not plug in a young all-star in place of Pippen and keep winning longer? Instead Jordan opted to stay with an aging, injury-prone superstar in the late 90's. For a man who loved challenges it indeed is quite strange that he never attempted to see how he could do without Scottie...

Maybe it had something to do with inheriting a losing franchise and playing in the 80's at the same time. Fact is, MJ was 2nd in the league in WS in 1985 and #1 in 1987 meaning no other player in the league produces more wins than he did on those teams. Only Bird in 1985 and no in 1987.


Kareem on the Bucks goes from the best record in the league in 1974 to not even making the playoffs the next year once Oscar left. And then he gets traded the following year to LA and his former team makes the playoffs when they didn't in his last year there and then the new team he goes to doesn't make the playoffs. Remember we are talking about prime Kareem here not some guy in his mid 30's

[G.O.A.T]

Some people will never understand.

The reason Pippen was so great is because he understood his limitations and accepted a role that allowed him to focus on his strengths.

Why can't he just be the great player he was?

Why do people need to pretend he was something he wasn't?

HE WAS A SIDEKICK AND THAT'S NOT AN INSULT.

You know who else were sidekicks, Kareem, Magic, Jerry West, Kobe, John Havlicek...etc.

You can be a great player and be a sidekick.

[1987_Lakers]

Calling Pippen top 20 of all time is a reach. Top 25-30 seems about right.

[Duncan21formvp]

Pippen became great due to playing with Jordan, he even said so himself.

Source: GoogleBooks (http://books.google.com/books?id=aQ84ViBNkYwC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=Game+Michael+Jordan+broke+his+leg&source=web&ots=Y9Xtn3nomR&sig=6shSn2cklYKVP1kBaC6nI0A_oko&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA39,M1)




Pippen, unlike other Bulls who usually kept their distance from Jordan, tried to learn all he could from Jordan in practice. In turn, Jordan worked with Pippen on his moves, jump shot, and defense and taught him mental toughness.



Pippen relates on how his game improved - Link (http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/jordanhof_pippen_090910.html)


http://www.nba.com/media/bulls/jordanpippen_090910.jpg



[quote]

[Duncan21formvp]

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=5453558



CHICAGO -- The Detroit Pistons may have toughened up the Bulls in the late 1980s and early 1990s, but Jerry Krause wouldn't give the Bad Boys any undue credit for contributing to Scottie Pippen's basketball manhood or his Hall of Fame career.

"No, Michael [Jordan] made him a man," said the Bulls' former general manager, now a scout for the White Sox. "The Pistons didn't have anything to do with that. Michael made him a man and Doug [Collins] did a great job with him in his first year. And then when Phil [Jackson] brought the triangle [offense] in, it really helped him because he had all the physical skills to be great."





"And he had Michael to beat on him for a year every day in practice and Michael beat him to death," Krause said. "The practices were great because you could see him at the end of the year start to grow and start to fight Michael . . ."

[Kurosawa0]

Some people will never understand.

The reason Pippen was so great is because he understood his limitations and accepted a role that allowed him to focus on his strengths.

Why can't he just be the great player he was?

Why do people need to pretend he was something he wasn't?

HE WAS A SIDEKICK AND THAT'S NOT AN INSULT.

You know who else were sidekicks, Kareem, Magic, Jerry West, Kobe, John Havlicek...etc.

You can be a great player and be a sidekick.

Agree 100% :applause: :applause: :applause:

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan failed to elevate his teams to a winning record until his fourth season. That is awful compared to every other top-tier great. Why is the "clear GOAT" the one guy who is the exception?

It was only his third full season, not his fourth (he missed almost the entirety of 1986). Secondly, Jordan EASILY had the worst team of any top 10 player when looking at each of their first few years in the league (especially relative to average league team strength). So there's your answer.


Practically everyone else took their (usually crappy team, remember, bad teams get high draft picks) to at least the conference finals within 3 years while MJ could not even get out the first round.

This is completely false. First off, the draft order and the way drafts worked were completely different pre-'85. You DIDN'T need to be one of the worst teams to get a high pick, and not jut via trading for a high pick. I'm not well-versed on the specifics, but this is how LA landed Magic for instance.

And are you seriously going to compare the teams other top 10 players had in their first 3-4 seasons to the team Jordan had in his first 3-4 seasons? Please do so so everyone can laugh at you. :oldlol: Hysterical that you're trying to act like most of the rest of the top 10 had similarly crappy teams when this is FAR from the case.

Who did the other top 10 players get to the conference finals or beyond with in their first 3 years? Magic had KAJ and others, KAJ had Oscar, Shaq had Penny and Grant, Bird had Parish/McHale and others; Duncan had DRob, Kobe had Shaq, Hakeem had Sampson. Besides, there were ONLY TWO PLAYOFF ROUNDS ANYWAY prior to the Finals before 1983, so if you won the first round, bang, you were in the conference finals. :oldlol: Big deal. Now look at who these players had next to them, then tell me what Jordan had for his first 2-3 full seasons (1985, '87 and '88)? Yeah...exactly. There's no equivalence there AT ALL.

Furthermore, few if any of these players had the misfortune of playing ALL-TIME level teams in the FIRST ROUND their first few seasons. Another mitigating factor that RATIONAL people take into account.


Actually it is. Jordan refused to play--threatened to retire--without Pippen--vetoing at least one Pippen trade. Why? If he could win with any random all-star why not plug in a young all-star in place of Pippen and keep winning longer? Instead Jordan opted to stay with an aging, injury-prone superstar in the late 90's. For a man who loved challenges it indeed is quite strange that he never attempted to see how he could do without Scottie...

No you dolt, it's not strange AT ALL that a 35 year old player would want to stay with what worked (Pippen and Jackson, which were his conditions for returning) rather than learn a new system under a new coach with a new partner at that stage of his career at age 36. To anyone with a functioning brain, that isn't strange AT ALL.

What's even more hysterical is imbeciles like you who think that Jordan plus Ewing/DRob/Barkley/Hakeem/Drexler wouldn't have run the league from '88 onward ('89 at the latest - 2 full years before they won their first title in reality).

[1987_Lakers]

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=5453558

Come on now, we all know Charles Oakley made Pippen a man.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0f1EsUVCIU:oldlol:

[Maestro33]

Ahhh bout time. Pip was capable of taking over games across the board. He may not nail 4 or 5 straight shots but what he would do is shut down the opponents best player, force a turnover, feed a teammate for a three, steal and run out a dunk and hit a dagger three. I'll take that backbreaking 3 minute stretch over 4 straight hoops any day.

Pip had a habit of putting someone else in position for the glory play, obviously normally Mike. Thats a skill in itself and a mindset/skillset a coach has yet to replicate with another player since.

Pips defense was borderline psychotic. He could literally destroy an offense on his own.

Someone asked what his weakness was it would have to be taking the final shot and free throws weren't great either.

Regardless...

We have the next Mike. Its Kobe. I know it. You know it. LeBron knows it. Theres is no player that is to Pip what Kobe is to Mike.

[G.O.A.T]

We have the next Mike. Its Kobe. I know it. You know it. LeBron knows it. Theres is no player that is to Pip what Kobe is to Mike.

What about LBJ

He's a better scorer, rebounder and passer than Pippen and he became an elite defender at a younger age?

Kobe has never come close to MJ;s MVP's or scoring titles. He's a poor mans Jordan in that sense.

I'd say Kobe is more comparable to Pippen, have been the sidekick and top perimeter defender for a three-peat Champion, than Michael who won five MVP's to Kobe's one and Six titles as the #1 option to Kobe's two.

[magnax1]

What about LBJ

He's a better scorer, rebounder and passer than Pippen and he became an elite defender at a younger age?

Kobe has never come close to MJ;s MVP's or scoring titles. He's a poor mans Jordan in that sense.

I'd say Kobe is more comparable to Pippen, have been the sidekick and top perimeter defender for a three-peat Champion, than Michael who won five MVP's to Kobe's one and Six titles as the #1 option to Kobe's two.
I don't think Lebron is that terribly similar. He impacts the game in somewhat similar ways, but other then this year so far he's been anywhere from a far below average to above average defender, compared to Pippen's all NBA defense almost every year of his career. Also, his game is mostly built around athetlicism, where Pippen might not have been a super skilled scorer, he was extremely fundamentally sound, and much more cerebral. I also don't think Lebron is a better passer really.

[Micku]

Yes, and who was Pippen's #1 cheerleader? Jordan, who called Pippen the best player in the league in 95' and was pushing for Pippen to be MVP in 96'.

Teammates are suppose to cheer on each other. Especially their significant players. Pippen was probably the best SF in the 90s. You better be his number one fan if he is on your team. Likewise with Pippen to Jordan unless you have the Shaq/Kobe relationship. But even then, Shaq commented on Kobe great play and skills.



:oldlol: at this "sidekick" label. "Sidekicks" are not legit MVP candidates.


Kobe, Mchale, Kareem, Magic, Oscar, West, Shaq, Wade, Stockton, Erving, Moses Malone, and Wilt. Some of the greats had better "sidekicks" than Michael Jordan.

Kareem-Magic/Oscar
Shaq-Kobe
Bird-Mchale
Wilt-West
Moses Malone-Dr. J
K.Malone-Stockton
Wade-Shaq
KG-PP-Allen

And you pick on Jordan...Might as well pick on Kareem and Shaq too. And almost all of them were legit MVP candidates.


Jordan failed to elevate his teams to a winning record until his fourth season. That is awful compared to every other top-tier great. Why is the "clear GOAT" the one guy who is the exception? Practically everyone else took their (usually crappy team, remember, bad teams get high draft picks) to at least the conference finals within 3 years while MJ could not even get out the first round.

Is Duncan better than Shaq and Wilt because he won earlier and expanded his team better? Is Hakeem better than Jordan too? He had a fast start and had a mediocre several years before the dream became a reality.

There are a lot more details in why Bird, Magic and Russel in why they won than just they are better team players than Jordan. Right place, right time, right system. I won't argue with you in saying that Magic and Bird had better impact on their teams or even the big men, but it's not like Jordan didn't have impact either.

There are a lot more reasons why Jordan won in 88 than the rest of the year. That year they had a better bench (Pippen, Grant), better coaching staff (Phil Jackson and crew), Jordan hit his prime, and just better cast.

Edit:

One more thing, why in the hell would you criticize Jordan for having a great player on a great team when that's what you are suppose to do in basketball? You might as well criticize all of the great teams in the 80s, because they were stacked. Some of them actually had better overall players than the Bulls teams.

I can do that to a lot teams.

"ZOMG, he wouldn't win his other two titles without Kevin Mchale and Parish!"

"ZOMG, Kareem wouldn't win without Oscar or Magic!"

"Shaq can't win at all without Penny, Kobe, Wade, Nash, or LBJ!"

"Magic can't win without Kareem or Worthy!"

"Kobe can't win without Shaq or Gasol!"

[kizut1659]

Some people will never understand.

The reason Pippen was so great is because he understood his limitations and accepted a role that allowed him to focus on his strengths.

Why can't he just be the great player he was?

Why do people need to pretend he was something he wasn't?

HE WAS A SIDEKICK AND THAT'S NOT AN INSULT.

You know who else were sidekicks, Kareem, Magic, Jerry West, Kobe, John Havlicek...etc.

You can be a great player and be a sidekick.

You can't compare Pippen to anyone of the above. Kareem was definetely not a sidekick in 1970 and 1980 (as you yourself wrote.) Same for magic in 1987 and 1988. Jerry West was the best player on the Lakers from about 1965 on and him and Wilt were 1A/1B when they won. Kobe was 1B in 2001 and 2002 and won 2 championships as the man. John Havlicek was probably Celtics' most important player in 1968, 1969, and 1974 - definetely not a "sidekick."

By contrast, Pippen had only one good season as someone who was not a sidekick - 1993-1994. I actually think Pippen was a great sidekick and I didn't really mean it in a deragotory way. I think Pippen IS a top 50 GOAT - i just don't think he is top 25.

[G.O.A.T]

I don't think Lebron is that terribly similar. He impacts the game in somewhat similar ways, but other then this year so far he's been anywhere from a far below average to above average defender, compared to Pippen's all NBA defense almost every year of his career.

Well, #1 Pippen was only all-NBA defense in about 60% of his career. I'm not sure I can give any creedence to an opinion based on an eight game sample size either. James was all-NBA first team last year for the second time. Pippen was a year older before he got his first all-NBA 1st team defensive selection.



Also, his game is mostly built around athetlicism, where Pippen might not have been a super skilled scorer, he was extremely fundamentally sound, and much more cerebral. I also don't think Lebron is a better passer really.

Pippen's game was primarily about athleticism. That's what allowed him to become a great defender much more than fundamentals. But that's an opinion so I'll leave it at that.

I think LeBron is a much better passer and so do the stats. Pippen's career high is LeBron's career average. Also there turnovers per minute are almost identical.

I don't think they are the same type of player, but to say there hasn't been another Scottie Pippen is like saying there hasn't been another Shawn Kemp, it's true, but there have been better.


You can't compare Pippen to anyone of the above. Kareem was definetely not a sidekick in 1970 and 1980 (as you yourself wrote.) Same for magic in 1987 and 1988. Jerry West was the best player on the Lakers from about 1965 on and him and Wilt were 1A/1B when they won. Kobe was 1B in 2001 and 2002 and won 2 championships as the man. John Havlicek was probably Celtics' most important player in 1968, 1969, and 1974 - definetely not a "sidekick."

By contrast, Pippen had only one good season as someone who was not a sidekick - 1993-1994. I actually think Pippen was a great sidekick and I didn't really mean it in a deragotory way. I think Pippen IS a top 50 GOAT - i just don't think he is top 25.

I have him right on the edge of the top 25. I wasn't comparing those players careers, only the portions of them spent as sidekicks.

[kizut1659]

What about LBJ

He's a better scorer, rebounder and passer than Pippen and he became an elite defender at a younger age?

Kobe has never come close to MJ;s MVP's or scoring titles. He's a poor mans Jordan in that sense.

I'd say Kobe is more comparable to Pippen, have been the sidekick and top perimeter defender for a three-peat Champion, than Michael who won five MVP's to Kobe's one and Six titles as the #1 option to Kobe's two.

You cannot be serious. Kobe is a poor man's MJ but he is not really comparable to Pippen. Scoring wise there is simply no comparison - again, Kobe is a poor man's MJ but he has been a 25-30 scorer for 10 straight years. Pippen's highest scoring average has been 22ppg and his career average is 16. We all know KObe is going to hit 30K points for his career, while Pippen's never hit 20K, scoring less than John Stockton, Paul Pierce, Vince Carter, etc.

Kobe WAS Pippen (maybe slightly worse actually) in 2000, but already in 2001 and 2002 his role on the team was more central than Pippen's ever was. I don't think there was a single playoff series where Pippen was more important than Jordan. By contrast, Kobe was the most important player by a healthy margin in the series against the Spurs in 2001 and 2002 (and arguably against the Kings in 2001.) It of course goes without saying that Kobe's 3 straight finals appearances as "the man" in 2008-2010 cannot be compared to Pippen's sole good season as "the man" in 1993-1994.

Again, I am not comparing Kobe to Jordan - he is just not as good and never will be now that he is past his prime already (even though i think the 5 vs. 1 mvp overstates the margin). But in terms of greatness, he is certainly closer to Jordan than Pippen.

[magnax1]

Well, #1 Pippen was only all-NBA defense in about 60% of his career. I'm not sure I can give any creedence to an opinion based on an eight game sample size either. James was all-NBA first team last year for the second time. Pippen was a year older before he got his first all-NBA 1st team defensive selection.
I think the majority of people agree that Lebron's last two defensive selections were unwarranted. I wasn't really trying to use Lebron's play on the heat as an argument, I was just saying he's played great on defense so far.




Pippen's game was primarily about athleticism. That's what allowed him to become a great defender much more than fundamentals. But that's an opinion so I'll leave it at that.

I think LeBron is a much better passer and so do the stats. Pippen's career high is LeBron's career average. Also there turnovers per minute are almost identical.

I don't think they are the same type of player, but to say there hasn't been another Scottie Pippen is like saying there hasn't been another Shawn Kemp, it's true, but there have been better.
Stats don't say much about passing, especially from away from the point guard position. I agree with your last point though. Pippen was unique, but wasn't as special as many make him out to be from a level of play perspective.

[G.O.A.T]

You cannot be serious. Kobe is a poor man's MJ but he is not really comparable to Pippen. Scoring wise there is simply no comparison - again, Kobe is a poor man's MJ but he has been a 25-30 scorer for 10 straight years. Pippen's highest scoring average has been 22ppg and his career average is 16. We all know KObe is going to hit 30K points for his career, while Pippen's never hit 20K, scoring less than John Stockton, Paul Pierce, Vince Carter, etc.

Kobe WAS Pippen (maybe slightly worse actually) in 2000, but already in 2001 and 2002 his role on the team was more central than Pippen's ever was. I don't think there was a single playoff series where Pippen was more important than Jordan. By contrast, Kobe was the most important player by a healthy margin in the series against the Spurs in 2001 and 2002 (and arguably against the Kings in 2001.) It of course goes without saying that Kobe's 3 straight finals appearances as "the man" in 2008-2010 cannot be compared to Pippen's sole good season as "the man" in 1993-1994.

Again, I am not comparing Kobe to Jordan - he is just not as good and never will be now that he is past his prime already (even though i think the 5 vs. 1 mvp overstates the margin). But in terms of greatness, he is certainly closer to Jordan than Pippen.

Look at the context of my post in relation to what I was responding to. I don't think we disagree much if at all here.

Except the part where you say Kobe was more valuable/important than Shaq at any time between 2000-2002. That's just silly. He may have posted better numbers for whatever reasons (doubt he did though) but that was Shaq's team and all the role players fit Shaq's game better than Kobe's. He was easily the most important player as Phil Jackson makes very clear in the books about those years.


I think the majority of people agree that Lebron's last two defensive selections were unwarranted. I wasn't really trying to use Lebron's play on the heat as an argument, I was just saying he's played great on defense so far.

Stats don't say much about passing, especially from away from the point guard position. I agree with your last point though. Pippen was unique, but wasn't as special as many make him out to be from a level of play perspective.

We don't need to argue here, but I disagree with your assertion of LeBron not deserving his all-defensive selections. He finished second in the DPOTY in 2009, that's pretty major and he always stands out as a threat to block any shot or steal any pass he;s close to.

As for stats and passing, while I agree in principal. When two players who play the same position and one averages more points, more assists and the same number of turnovers, I'm going to feel safe in saying he is better with the ball and a better passer in most cases.

[hitmanyr2k]

Jordan won 50 games in 1988 when Pippen was a foul-prone benchwarming 20 mpg scrub. Get real. It's not MJ's fault that he played 85% of his career with Pippen. Jordan only had his ROOKIE year and then 1987 to "prove" himself before Pippen was on the team. In '85 he was a rookie yet still led the Bulls to a substantial improvement and had one of the best rookie seasons in history. In '87 he had possibly the worst supporting cast in history (especially relative to the league) yet still won 40 games -- and he had to average 40+ ppg/53% FG in the Chicago wins to do it. That team was garbage outside of MJ.

So when was Jordan supposed to have a winning record exactly? As I've already noted, he won 50 games with a rookie Pippen, which, to any sane person (note: this excludes you), proves that he could have at least had a winning record with a decent team around him. Even in '88 his team was no great shakes, yet he won 50 games. But yeah, I'm sure it was 7 pt/4 reb foul-prone Pippen who was the reason for those wins! :oldlol:



It doesn't make any sane person wonder about those things, I'll tell you that much.


Yippee. Jordan won 50 games and put up insane numbers. These days that gets you a 25 cent bag of chips. Ask Lebron :oldlol: He put up 60+ win seasons and had pretty numbers and he's now looked at as a joke. Of course if he had a caliber player of Pippen by his side it would probably be a different story. The Jordan's, the Kobe's, the Lebron's are all alike. People tout them as this and that but at the end of the day they weren't winning jack sh** without their "sidekicks".

And it's funny how "rookie 7 point/4 reb foul prone" Pippen is put in the starting lineup in a do-or-die Game 5 and responds with a damn fine all-around game to get MJ his first ever playoff series win.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M79eJyW_T0M

[OldSchoolBBall]

Yippee. Jordan won 50 games and put up insane numbers. These days that gets you a 25 cent bag of chips. Ask Lebron :oldlol: He put up 60+ win seasons and had pretty numbers and he's now looked at as a joke. Of course if he had a caliber player of Pippen by his side it would probably be a different story. The Jordan's, the Kobe's, the Lebron's are all alike. People tout them as this and that but at the end of the day they weren't winning jack sh** without their "sidekicks".


Amazing how people can be so deluded. :oldlol: Again, I'm SURE that a 7 pt/4 reb 20 mpg rookie was the reason for Chicago winning 50 games that year. NOT the fact that Jordan had one of the 10 best individual seasons of all-time. It was PIPPEN. Get outta here with that noise... :oldlol:

[G.O.A.T]

And it's funny how "rookie 7 point/4 reb foul prone" Pippen is put in the starting lineup in a do-or-die Game 5 and responds with a damn fine all-around game to get MJ his first ever playoff series win.

His 13/10/4 damn fine game meant more than Michael's 44-8-6 including a buzzer beater?

[magnax1]

We don't need to argue here, but I disagree with your assertion of LeBron not deserving his all-defensive selections. He finished second in the DPOTY in 2009, that's pretty major and he always stands out as a threat to block any shot or steal any pass he;s close to.

As for stats and passing, while I agree in principal. When two players who play the same position and one averages more points, more assists and the same number of turnovers, I'm going to feel safe in saying he is better with the ball and a better passer in most cases.
He still only averaged something like 1 block and 1.5 steal. If Lebron was second in DPOTY, then Wade should've been first every year since 2006. Lebron played highlight defense. He impacted four or five plays in a big way, and then went back to being a bit below average one on one defender, and nothing special on every other part of defense.

[kizut1659]

Look at the context of my post in relation to what I was responding to. I don't think we disagree much if at all here.

Except the part where you say Kobe was more valuable/important than Shaq at any time between 2000-2002. That's just silly. He may have posted better numbers for whatever reasons (doubt he did though) but that was Shaq's team and all the role players fit Shaq's game better than Kobe's. He was easily the most important player as Phil Jackson makes very clear in the books about those years.



Yeah, I think we mostly agree. I think borderline 25 is too high for Pippen but I can see how you got there. I personally don't think you can really rank top GOAT as 1through 50. The way i look at it as that Jordan #1 and then you have "tiers"

First tier (# 2 through # 9) is KAJ, Bird, Russel, Wilt, Magic, Duncan, Kobe, and Shaq. Second tier (#s 10 through 14) is West, Robetson, Havlicek, Olajuwan, and M. Malone. I am too lazy to split the following players by more tiers right now but i think the following players (#15 through 27) are all better than Pippen when one is talking GOAT. (Erving, Pettit, Malone, Barkley, Cousy, Garnett , Isiah, Stockton, Barry, Elvin Hayes, Willis Reed, George Mikan.) For me, Pippen belongs in the very next tier, which includes players such D. Robinson, Dominique Wilkins, maybe Wade, Lebron, and couple of others.)

[hitmanyr2k]

You cannot be serious. Kobe is a poor man's MJ but he is not really comparable to Pippen. Scoring wise there is simply no comparison - again, Kobe is a poor man's MJ but he has been a 25-30 scorer for 10 straight years. Pippen's highest scoring average has been 22ppg and his career average is 16. We all know KObe is going to hit 30K points for his career, while Pippen's never hit 20K, scoring less than John Stockton, Paul Pierce, Vince Carter, etc.

Who cares how much Pierce and Vince scored? What results did it get them? Pierce had MAD playoff droughts in the lowly Eastern Conference. He was scoring a lot of points on bad teams. Big F'n deal. Same goes for Vince Carter.


Kobe WAS Pippen (maybe slightly worse actually) in 2000, but already in 2001 and 2002 his role on the team was more central than Pippen's ever was. I don't think there was a single playoff series where Pippen was more important than Jordan. By contrast, Kobe was the most important player by a healthy margin in the series against the Spurs in 2001 and 2002 (and arguably against the Kings in 2001.)

There's no such thing as "most important player" when it comes to the stars on a team. You know why? Because neither player is winning a damn thing without the other :oldlol: Let me put it as plain as I can for you. Ultimately, Jordan without Pippen is losing. Kobe without Shaq/Gasol is losing. Lebron without....well, he hasn't had anything worthy of those two players above to even mention but you get the idea.


It of course goes without saying that Kobe's 3 straight finals appearances as "the man" in 2008-2010 cannot be compared to Pippen's sole good season as "the man" in 1993-1994.

Of course it can't be compared. In 2008-2010 Kobe got to be with another significant talent (Pau Gasol) by his side. Where was Kobe before that? What was he doing before Gasol? Oh yeah, he was doing what Michael Jordan was doing before Pippen. He was doing what Lebron James was doing the last two seasons. He was putting up numbers and losing. 2005, no playoffs. 2006, first round exit. 2007, first round exit. Kobe failed over and over and over and went through all of his growing pains and quitting and throwing tantrums and demanding trades and all that. Gasol comes to the Lakers for magic beans and all is right with the world. If Gasol never comes to LA Kobe is in the same boat Lebron James is in now...criticized and scrutinized :oldlol:

[hitmanyr2k]

Amazing how people can be so deluded. :oldlol: Again, I'm SURE that a 7 pt/4 reb 20 mpg rookie was the reason for Chicago winning 50 games that year. NOT the fact that Jordan had one of the 10 best individual seasons of all-time. It was PIPPEN. Get outta here with that noise... :oldlol:

Yippee...pretty numbers, 50 wins and possibly a first round exit. Like I said before, these days that gets you a 25 cent bag of chips. Hell, Lebron got to the ECF with a 60 win team and put up pretty numbers. What did it get him in the end? Criticized and scrutinized :oldlol:

[hitmanyr2k]

His 13/10/4 damn fine game meant more than Michael's 44-8-6 including a buzzer beater?

Pippen put up 24/6/5 as a rookie in his first start in do-or-die Game 5. Not sure where you got those numbers from? Looking at '89 maybe?

[Fatal9]

His 13/10/4 damn fine game meant more than Michael's 44-8-6 including a buzzer beater?
Um, rookie Pippen had 24/6/5/4 in the game in question - the do or die game 5 vs. Cavs. He also led a 10-1 run with MJ on the bench that gave the Bulls their first lead of the game. Maybe you should watch the video he linked, because without the "worthless scrub rookie Pippen", Bulls are out of the first round again that year - MJ's numbers and all. Seems like you are thinking of the '89 series when hitman was clearly referring to the '88 series (first playoff series win of MJ's career).

[G.O.A.T]

Pippen put up 24/6/5 as a rookie in his first start in do-or-die Game 5. Not sure where you got those numbers from? Looking at '89 maybe?

That's right, I was thinking the "shot on Ehlo" Cavs series came first because the Bulls were underdogs, they had a better regular season in '88 though didn't they?

[Fatal9]

Look all great players have a positive impact on one another but this "MJ made Pippen into an all-star" nonsense really has to stop...

He was a top 5 draft pick, Bulls were aware of the skill set he possessed and traded for him. He played PG most of his life before a growth spurt and developed his court vision and ball handling skills then. He averaged 3 spg in college (more than MJ btw), had great team defense instincts as early as his rookie season. Pippen did what all players do, get better as he gained more experience. Phil is the one who helped his game more than anyone by putting him in an offensive system that would suited his strengths - though a more uptempo style might have been even better. MJ definitely made him a better individual defender, increased his bball IQ but other than that, I'm not seeing it. And like I said, I'm not sure he helped Pip's game more than Phil did.

MJ wasn't taking Scottie's jumpers at the gym for him, MJ didn't make him talented enough to be taken top 5 in a draft, MJ didn't give him his unique all-around skill-set that he developed due to his PG background, MJ didn't give him the work ethic which Scottie used to rise from being a team manager at the start of college to being one of the top prospects in the draft after college. I know it's easy to look back through homer-vision and rewrite history but do you really need to MJ to take credit for everything? He made him a better player. Just like Pippen made MJ a better player by giving the ball to him in the right spots, giving him rest by taking a defensive assignment if he was tired or was in foul trouble, by facilitating the team's offense and getting teammates involved so MJ wouldn't have to worry about it.

It's shameful these dudes on here can't even give him credit for becoming the player he became, because once again "it was all MJ". How many other guys did MJ play with over the course of his career? Why didn't he "make them"?


Jordan won 50 games in 1988 when Pippen was a foul-prone benchwarming 20 mpg scrub. Get real.
Dominique won 50 that year with about the same level of help. Almost took down the Celtics too. Where's his medal? :oldlol:

[Samurai Swoosh]

His 13/10/4 damn fine game meant more than Michael's 44-8-6 including a buzzer beater?
LOL ... MJ's clutch layup and CLUTCH defensive stop / steal on Malone to even get to the game winner?

People here are reeeeeee diculous.

[sh0wtime]

May i ask why i deserved 3 negative reps for this thread? Do you hate Pippen that much or? Just asking, maybe i missed something.

[Da_Realist]

Actually it is. Jordan refused to play--threatened to retire--without Pippen--vetoing at least one Pippen trade. Why? If he could win with any random all-star why not plug in a young all-star in place of Pippen and keep winning longer? Instead Jordan opted to stay with an aging, injury-prone superstar in the late 90's. For a man who loved challenges it indeed is quite strange that he never attempted to see how he could do without Scottie...

This is stupid. :facepalm Why wouldn't Jordan want to play with someone that's been by his side for 12 or 13 years...whom he won multiple titles with? Why would he need to prove he could win without Pippen when winning was enough for him? Jordan wasn't threatened by Pippen's presence on the team, nor should he have been. They complimented each other perfectly to the tune of 6 titles. Why would he want to opt for proving he could win without Pippen when it wasn't even an issue until well after he retired when internet nerds needed a way to invalidate anything he did?

[Da_Realist]

Jordan and Pippen were more rational about their relationship than their respective fans. I can understand Shaq and Kobe fans fighting over this and that because they themselves did. But Jordan and Pippen rarely ever had anything negative to say about each other and were probably each other's biggest fans. Jordan said Pippen was the best player in the league. He said Pippen was the best player on the Dream Team. He told the world that Pippen was "his MVP" when he received the 1997 Finals MVP. Jordan complimented one guy in his Hall of Fame speech -- Scottie Pippen. Pippen has repeatedly said Jordan is the GOAT. Repeatedly said Jordan helped him reach his potential. Pippen chose Jordan to introduce him into the Hall of Fame.

This is how you want teammates to act. They respected each other because the only thing each of them wanted was to win. It's f*cked up that we can't appreciate Jordan without mentioning how he didn't win sh*t without Pippen. Or we can't discuss Pippen without mentioning that he was a useless scrub without Jordan when they themselves know better.

I come on this board and all these people with all these thinly veiled agendas come in to push one player over another when that's not how we're supposed to view basketball. Both Jordan and Pippen fans know good and *** damn well they helped each other reach their potential (winning AND individual accolades). Nobody wins alone. Could Pippen have won without Jordan? Of course. Given a 15 year career, the right team and coaching staff -- Yes. Could Jordan have won without Pippen? Yes. Given the proper environment, yes. It's a stupid argument. Did they win together? Yes. 6 times. That's all that should matter.

[Ne 1]

Pippen was never a legit MVP candidate anymore than Chauncey Billups was one. His name might have been mentioned, but he was never seriously going to win the award.

I love how building up Pippen is now seen as the cool thing as long as it tarnishes Jordan.

Listen, those of us that actually watched the game back then will tell you, Pippen was a sidekick. He was a great, great player. One of the top 30 in league history, but that team lived and breathed Michael Jordan. He was it.

Billups? :oldlol:

Peak Pippen was actually very close to mid 80s Magic statistically speaking...

'94 Pippen:

22/9/6/3 on 49%
All-defensive first team
23.2 PER (lets use PER since MJ fans love this statistic)
Bulls were 51-21 in games he played, and 4-6 without him

'85 Magic:

18/6/13/2 on 56%
23.2 PER
Lakers were 57-20 in games he played, and 5-0 without him

Magic is obviously the better offensive player (and would go on to become an even better player after '87), but Pippen has a huge huge edge defensively. But had Pippen's prime come in the mid 80s, against a worse league defensively and while playing on a faster pace (imagine even more transition scoring opportunities for Scottie), is a 24/10/7 season on 50+% really out of the question here? Maybe even something like 25/10/8 if he played in the mid 80s run and gun Western Conference (defensively those were some of the worst conferences in NBA history, almost every team gave up 110+ ppg). Pippen can lock down Magic in a one on one matchup as we've already seen in '91, but can you say the same is true the other way around? I think '87-'89 Magic > any version of Pippen, but mid 80s Magic vs. Pippen is a really good comparison imo. Both players can dominate a game while taking less than 10 shots too.

[97 bulls]

Great post real you and hitman are 2 of my favoorite posters. I just don't believe this stuff is being argued in an appreciation thread. I was ducking in the larry bird thread every so often and it was just amazing how much smoke was being blown up his ass. Now most it was true, but noone came in there knocking his defense, or question some of his championships etc.

[Ne 1]

kind of overrated. Perfect sidekick but not good enough to be the main guy. Never scored close to 25 per game and did not even reach 20K points for his career.

His career post-Jordan really damaged my opinion of him. In 1999, Pippen was only 33 and with significantly less mileage than someone like Kobe now and what happened? An embarassing season in Houston capped by shooting 33% in the playoffs and then having the gall to blame Barkley. Then forcing a trade to Portland, settling into a pure role player mode and not stepping up (shooting 3 for 10) when Portland blew a 15 point lead in game 7 against the Lakers. Never saw second round of the playoffs afterwards.

So could Jordan have won without Pippen or another well-rounded all-star - no, of course not. Is Pippen a top 20/25 GOAT - not in my opinion .

Pippen had to play with Michael Jordan for the majority of his career. That shouldn't be used against him.


Pippen is the GOAT perimeter defender, was a MVP caliber player, and at least a top 5 player for several years (and the best all-around player) and the best SF in his prime. Was this because of Michael Jordan?:confusedshrug: For 1

[Roundball_Rock]

But Jordan and Pippen rarely ever had anything negative to say about each other and were probably each other's biggest fans. Jordan said Pippen was the best player in the league. He said Pippen was the best player on the Dream Team. He told the world that Pippen was "his MVP" when he received the 1997 Finals MVP. Jordan complimented one guy in his Hall of Fame speech -- Scottie Pippen. Pippen has repeatedly said Jordan is the GOAT. Repeatedly said Jordan helped him reach his potential. Pippen chose Jordan to introduce him into the Hall of Fame.

This is how you want teammates to act. They respected each other because the only thing each of them wanted was to win. It's f*cked up that we can't appreciate Jordan without mentioning how he didn't win sh*t without Pippen. Or we can't discuss Pippen without mentioning that he was a useless scrub without Jordan when they themselves know better.

I come on this board and all these people with all these thinly veiled agendas come in to push one player over another when that's not how we're supposed to view basketball. Both Jordan and Pippen fans know good and *** damn well they helped each other reach their potential (winning AND individual accolades). Nobody wins alone. Could Pippen have won without Jordan? Of course. Given a 15 year career, the right team and coaching staff -- Yes. Could Jordan have won without Pippen? Yes. Given the proper environment, yes. It's a stupid argument. Did they win together? Yes. 6 times. That's all that should matter.

:applause:


Pippen was never a legit MVP candidate

:roll: He was as legit as KG in 08' despite missing ten games.


Who cares how much Pierce and Vince scored?

It is amusing to see this fetish for scoring. If we are to fetishize scoring over a defensive monster who was a consummate team player and consistently won why does the Wilt vs. Russell debate still exist? The logic advanced by several in this thread leads to a simple conclusion: Wilt>>Russell. Why the inconsistency?


In 2008-2010 Kobe got to be with another significant talent (Pau Gasol) by his side. Where was Kobe before that? What was he doing before Gasol? Oh yeah, he was doing what Michael Jordan was doing before Pippen. He was doing what Lebron James was doing the last two seasons. He was putting up numbers and losing. 2005, no playoffs. 2006, first round exit. 2007, first round exit.

:D


Yippee...pretty numbers, 50 wins and possibly a first round exit. Like I said before, these days that gets you a 25 cent bag of chips. Hell, Lebron got to the ECF with a 60 win team and put up pretty numbers. What did it get him in the end? Criticized and scrutinized

Hell, Lebron elevated his team far more than the "clear GOAT" did. Several other GOAT candidates joined trash teams and had them contending immediately. MJ needed four years to even get out the first round and post a winning record.



MJ wasn't taking Scottie's jumpers at the gym for him, MJ didn't make him talented enough to be taken top 5 in a draft, MJ didn't give him his unique all-around skill-set that he developed due to his PG background, MJ didn't give him the work ethic which Scottie used to rise from being a team manager at the start of college to being one of the top prospects in the draft after college. I know it's easy to look back through homer-vision and rewrite history but do you really need to MJ to take credit for everything? He made him a better player. Just like Pippen made MJ a better player by giving the ball to him in the right spots, giving him rest by taking a defensive assignment if he was tired or was in foul trouble, by facilitating the team's offense and getting teammates involved so MJ wouldn't have to worry about it.

It's shameful these dudes on here can't even give him credit for becoming the player he became, because once again "it was all MJ". How many other guys did MJ play with over the course of his career? Why didn't he "make them"?

:applause:

With respect to the last two sentences, MJ stans never answer those obvious questions because we all know the obvious answer. Why can't MJ "make" a Pippen in Charlotte? How about Washington? Does MJ enjoy being a failure as a GM? He should get out of the office, hit the gym and "make" another Pippen. Is the ultimate competitor now the ultimate slacker?


No you dolt, it's not strange AT ALL that a 35 year old player would want to stay with what worked (Pippen and Jackson, which were his conditions for returning) rather than learn a new system under a new coach with a new partner at that stage of his career at age 36.

How about a 32 year old fresh off a MVP and his fourth ring? Pippen's days as a superstar were numbered. Krause recognized it and wanted to ship him out while he had immense value. Pippen was getting old but more importantly his body was breaking down. If Pippen is interchangeable with a random elite player why not swap him with a young elite player so MJ could keep winning well into his 30's, not retire at age 35 because he knew he was toast without Scottie?


What's even more hysterical is imbeciles like you who think that Jordan plus Ewing/DRob/Barkley/Hakeem/Drexler wouldn't have run the league from '88 onward

Sure, in video games. The Bulls had no shot at acquiring those players. Ask Cleveland Cavaliers fans how acquiring superstars works. The best players they ever got for Lebron were Jamison, old Shaq, and Mo Williams. Only MJ fans think the Bulls could have acquired Hakeem in exchange for Bill Cartwright, Craig Hodges and 2nd round pick. The Bulls best trade asset under the "no Pippen" scenario would have been Horace Grant.


And you pick on Jordan.

Really? Read the thread. It is insecure MJ fans who hijacked a "cheers to Scottie" thread.

Kareem -- took a 2nd year expansion team that won 27 games the year before to the ECF as a rookie without Oscar or Magic

Shaq -- always had great teams so there isn't anything to say about him.

Bird -- took a 29 win team to the ECF as a rookie, won a ring with McHale averaging about 10 points on the bench.

The real question is strength relative to the league, something MJ fans conveniently ignore due to expansion. Who wins? An average team from 1965 or 1995? The answer is the former. Jordan had a team that won 55 games while replacing him with a D-League scrub. How many other superstars of that era had a team of that strength? Let's see hard facts, not speculation about teams that wound up winning 56 games despite their top player being out for a while but went 8-9 without the superstar in question, as MJ fans did previously when this question was posed.


One more thing, why in the hell would you criticize Jordan for having a great player on a great team when that's what you are suppose to do in basketball?

Good question. Ask MJ fans why they criticize Pippen for having a great player on a great team in every Pippen thread. :D

:oldlol: at someone implying 94' was a fluke for Pip. 95' was on par with 94' and he was arguably even slightly better for 4/5 of 96' before getting hurt.


I just don't believe this stuff is being argued in an appreciation thread. I was ducking in the larry bird thread every so often and it was just amazing how much smoke was being blown up his ass. Now most it was true, but noone came in there knocking his defense, or question some of his championships e

This happens in every Pippen thread thanks to the agenda of fans of the "clear GOAT", who tend to be ex-Bulls fans. I've said it before and I will say it again: if the claims made about Jordan are accurate why the perpetual need to promote a slew of myths around him? His record should suffice, like the record of every other GOAT candidate in basketball or football or racing or hockey does...Do you see Kareem fans trashing Magic? Montana fans diminishing Rice? Gretzky fans saying Messier sucked? Jimmie Johnson fans saying he had terrible cars? Jordan fans are the ONLY exception. Why?

[guy]

Actually it is. Jordan refused to play--threatened to retire--without Pippen--vetoing at least one Pippen trade. Why? If he could win with any random all-star why not plug in a young all-star in place of Pippen and keep winning longer? Instead Jordan opted to stay with an aging, injury-prone superstar in the late 90's. For a man who loved challenges it indeed is quite strange that he never attempted to see how he could do without Scottie...

Wow, I usually just respectfully disagree with most of your posts, but this is probably by far the dumbest thing you've ever posted.

This resembles alot more of what one of those crazy Kobe trolls would post as opposed to what I would expect from you.

[Roundball_Rock]

It depends on whether you accept the proposition that Jordan could have won with any random elite player. If that is the case then why not opt for a younger one and keep the rings coming instead of retiring after three consecutive championships and a MVP because Scottie left? It is a logical question based on MJ fan's rhetoric.

*Jordan could win with any random elite player
*Pippen was old and breaking down physically
*Pippen still had high trade value and the Bulls could have gotten a young all-star for him

Why keep him around? Sentimentality? From Jordan. :roll: Jordan left rings on the table because of sentimentality regarding a guy he probably has spoken to maybe three times in the past decade?

I wasn't serious about MJ leaving or pushing for Pip to leave to prove a point but the evidence suggests MJ did not accept the proposition that he could easily win without Scottie.

[Ne 1]

Actually it is. Jordan refused to play--threatened to retire--without Pippen--vetoing at least one Pippen trade. Why? If he could win with any random all-star why not plug in a young all-star in place of Pippen and keep winning longer? Instead Jordan opted to stay with an aging, injury-prone superstar in the late 90's. For a man who loved challenges it indeed is quite strange that he never attempted to see how he could do without Scottie...

''Tracy McGrady was selected ninth overall in the NBA Draft 1997 by the Toronto Raptors. Chicago Bulls GM Jerry Krause had arranged a draft-day trade to send Scottie Pippen to Toronto for the 9th overall pick, which he would have used to take McGrady. Krause decided not to make the deal when Michael Jordan threatened to retire if it was made. ''

Interesting....

[guy]

Yippee...pretty numbers, 50 wins and possibly a first round exit. Like I said before, these days that gets you a 25 cent bag of chips. Hell, Lebron got to the ECF with a 60 win team and put up pretty numbers. What did it get him in the end? Criticized and scrutinized :oldlol:

Ummm, I think his point was that Jordan having his first winning season in Pippen's rookie year is more of a coincidence as opposed to being the result of Pippen.

[Roundball_Rock]

''Tracy McGrady was selected ninth overall in the NBA Draft 1997 by the Toronto Raptors. Chicago Bulls GM Jerry Krause had arranged a draft-day trade to send Scottie Pippen to Toronto for the 9th overall pick, which he would have used to take McGrady. Krause decided not to make the deal when Michael Jordan threatened to retire if it was made. ''

Interesting....

I can understand that since T Mac was coming out of high school but why wasn't MJ on his feet cheering for trading Pippen for Kemp, McDyess, et al.? There were a million Pippen trade scenarios since half the league wanted the overrated scrub even in the middle of his career. Hey, MJ could have had a dominant big man!

[Ne 1]

Hey, MJ could have had a dominant big man!



And how many times have we heard from Jordan stans ''he's the only player to ever win without a dominant big man!''

Jordan won 6 rings without a center, it might as well of been 4 on 5 according to them. :oldlol:

[guy]

It depends on whether you accept the proposition that Jordan could have won with any random elite player. If that is the case then why not opt for a younger one and keep the rings coming instead of retiring after three consecutive championships and a MVP because Scottie left? It is a logical question based on MJ fan's rhetoric.

*Jordan could win with any random elite player
*Pippen was old and breaking down physically
*Pippen still had high trade value and the Bulls could have gotten a young all-star for him

Why keep him around? Sentimentality? From Jordan. :roll: Jordan left rings on the table because of sentimentality regarding a guy he probably has spoken to maybe three times in the past decade?

I wasn't serious about MJ leaving or pushing for Pip to leave to prove a point but the evidence suggests MJ did not accept the proposition that he could easily win without Scottie.

You realize that Jordan/Pippen/Phil for years were united in a huge feud with management right? So Jordan clearly wasn't going to keep quiet and not take a stand when they were trying to push the two other major pieces to a dynasty. And really? Kemp, McDyess, T-Mac? How can you blame him for wanting Pippen around when that was what was clearly working and none of those other guys were better then Pippen? Why make a change when thats what was clearly working? Would you expect a CEO to sit around and do nothing while the CFO is getting pushed out by a board of directors even while business is better then ever? Jordan was protesting to something that was clearly very stupid. Hard to blame him for that. And the Kemp rumors were while Jordan was retired in the 94 offseason. Its not like we're talking about Duncan, Shaq, Ewing, Malone, Robinson or Hakeem here. If those guys were on the table at certain points of the dynasty, and Jordan protested, then you might have a point. And either way, just because those other guys mentioned in rumors were younger, Jordan WAS NOT. Bulls getting T-Mac or McDyess was not going to make Jordan want to play an extra 5 years, most of it spent on Pippen's replacement still developing.

Seriously, don't you think it would be pretty stupid for Kobe to back a Gasol for Bosh trade just cause Bosh is younger even after they've won 2 titles in a row? And unlike Jordan' scenario, Bosh isn't developing anymore and is just about in his prime. Like I said, this is probably the dumbest argument you've ever made.

And where do you get how often they've talked to each other over the past decade from?

[Kellogs4toniee]

Jordan and Pippen were more rational about their relationship than their respective fans. I can understand Shaq and Kobe fans fighting over this and that because they themselves did. But Jordan and Pippen rarely ever had anything negative to say about each other and were probably each other's biggest fans. Jordan said Pippen was the best player in the league. He said Pippen was the best player on the Dream Team. He told the world that Pippen was "his MVP" when he received the 1997 Finals MVP. Jordan complimented one guy in his Hall of Fame speech -- Scottie Pippen. Pippen has repeatedly said Jordan is the GOAT. Repeatedly said Jordan helped him reach his potential. Pippen chose Jordan to introduce him into the Hall of Fame.

This is how you want teammates to act. They respected each other because the only thing each of them wanted was to win. It's f*cked up that we can't appreciate Jordan without mentioning how he didn't win sh*t without Pippen. Or we can't discuss Pippen without mentioning that he was a useless scrub without Jordan when they themselves know better.

I come on this board and all these people with all these thinly veiled agendas come in to push one player over another when that's not how we're supposed to view basketball. Both Jordan and Pippen fans know good and *** damn well they helped each other reach their potential (winning AND individual accolades). Nobody wins alone. Could Pippen have won without Jordan? Of course. Given a 15 year career, the right team and coaching staff -- Yes. Could Jordan have won without Pippen? Yes. Given the proper environment, yes. It's a stupid argument. Did they win together? Yes. 6 times. That's all that should matter.

Repped. :applause: :applause:

As a Bulls fan, this is how it should be. Anything otherwise is just agenda-driven.

[kizut1659]

For people focusing on Pippen from 1993 to 1995, I agree that Pippen was great in 1993-1994 but nothing out-of-the ordinary - someone like David Robinson had half a dozen seasons as good or greater than that, let alone someone like Barkley or Malone. In 1994-1995, Pippen was still very good statistically but I had a sense that he lost some of his fire and the Bulls were a .500 team before Jordan rejoined. As the Bulls lacked another great scorer, what the Bulls really needed during these 2 years was for Pippen to be able to score in the high 20s and Pippen didn't have it in him.

Bottom line is that Pippen was a great player in his prime but he was not good enough to be the main guy on a championship team. Also as I posted earlier, Pippen's prime was relatively short - basically from 1989 through 1998 and he became a role player by the time he was 33 with only 37K minutes played at that point.

[raptorfan_dr07]

You cannot be serious. Kobe is a poor man's MJ but he is not really comparable to Pippen. Scoring wise there is simply no comparison - again, Kobe is a poor man's MJ but he has been a 25-30 scorer for 10 straight years. Pippen's highest scoring average has been 22ppg and his career average is 16. We all know KObe is going to hit 30K points for his career, while Pippen's never hit 20K, scoring less than John Stockton, Paul Pierce, Vince Carter, etc.

Kobe WAS Pippen (maybe slightly worse actually) in 2000, but already in 2001 and 2002 his role on the team was more central than Pippen's ever was. I don't think there was a single playoff series where Pippen was more important than Jordan. By contrast, Kobe was the most important player by a healthy margin in the series against the Spurs in 2001 and 2002 (and arguably against the Kings in 2001.) It of course goes without saying that Kobe's 3 straight finals appearances as "the man" in 2008-2010 cannot be compared to Pippen's sole good season as "the man" in 1993-1994.

Again, I am not comparing Kobe to Jordan - he is just not as good and never will be now that he is past his prime already (even though i think the 5 vs. 1 mvp overstates the margin). But in terms of greatness, he is certainly closer to Jordan than Pippen.

Except Pippen did everything else on the court(rebounding, passing, defense, etc), aside from scoring, better than Kobe. He also was a far greater teammate and leader. Kobe/Pippen comparisons are far more valid than Kobe/Jordan.

[G.O.A.T]

What examples do we have of Pippen being a good leader?

Late in his career he was a cancer in Houston and the so-called leader of the most undisciplined team in the NBA (Portland)

He was almost never a problem player, but I never thought of him as a leader.

Someone set me straight if I'm wrong.

[Maestro33]

Watch any interview with the rest of the Bulls. Kerr, Bushy, Randy will all tell you Pip lead the team.

[kizut1659]

What examples do we have of Pippen being a good leader?

Late in his career he was a cancer in Houston and the so-called leader of the most undisciplined team in the NBA (Portland)

He was almost never a problem player, but I never thought of him as a leader.

Someone set me straight if I'm wrong.

Exactly. He certainly didn't/was not able to serve as a positive influence on Rasheed Wallance and Bonzie Wells. Also, his 1994 refusal to enter the game and 1998 threats to not play that season come to mind.

[Roundball_Rock]

In 1994-1995, Pippen was still very good statistically but I had a sense that he lost some of his fire

What? That was probably his best season ever defensively despite being asked to carry the biggest load in the league: anchor the defense, lead the team in scoring, rebounding, blocks, minutes and assists while running the offense.


As the Bulls lacked another great scorer, what the Bulls really needed during these 2 years was for Pippen to be able to score in the high 20s and Pippen didn't have it in him.

How many point guards/point forwards score that much? Why would you want your primary playmaker scoring that much, unless it was someone like Lebron? Pippen's teammates loved him and part of the reason was he was primarily interested in winning and he knew to do that he had to make his teammates better. Part of how he did that was being a pass-first player.


he became a role player by the time he was 33 with only 37K minutes played at that point.

Yeah, his 98' back injury had nothing to do with it. :rolleyes: The fact is, in addition to his injury, he had played 11 seasons by then and then the equivalent of 2 1/2 seasons because he was in the playoffs every year, usually going deep. On top of that he played twice in the Olympics. The notion that he had the mileage of a typical 33 year old is demonstrably false.


What examples do we have of Pippen being a good leader?

The best evidence possible: the words of his teammates and coaches throughout his career. What evidence is there to suggest he was not a good leader? If he was a poor leader why--based on the available evidence--was Scottie the guy teammates turned to when they needed encouragement or inspiration? Is that not precisely the time one looks for leadership?

Regarding Portland, check out Portland's win-loss record with and without him, even in 2002 and 2003. They went from top 5 in the league to barely top 20 both times. Was it his 11/6/5 they were missing?

It is strange to me that time and again leadership on here is viewed simply through the lens of ability on the basketball court, usually scoring prowess. There are nearly 30 teams. The notion that the best player=the leader 90% of the time ignores group dynamics and shows a lack of understanding of what leadership is. Having a superlative ability to put a ball through a hoop hardly correlates with the skills needed to be a great leader.

[Ne 1]

Yeah, his 98' back injury had nothing to do with it.

Before that back injury I thought he should have (and would have) been Finals MVP if he didn't hurt his back taking a million Karl Malone charges. Also his game 4 is the best defense ever played that I've seen.

[Teanett]

jordan and pippen.
i'm tired of people putting down one in favour of the other.
is it that hard to come to grips that two of the greatest players
played on the same team at the same time?

two franchise players started their careers and
spend the best basketball years on the same team.

with skills that complemented each other perfectly.

maybe it sounds too good to be true...
does not happen often....
in fact, only happened once...
6 championships, best record ever...:bowdown:

[jlip]

What examples do we have of Pippen being a good leader?

Late in his career he was a cancer in Houston and the so-called leader of the most undisciplined team in the NBA (Portland)

He was almost never a problem player, but I never thought of him as a leader.

Someone set me straight if I'm wrong.



"On the Bulls he [Pippen] was probably the player most liked by the others. He mingled. He could bring out the best in the players and communicate the best. Leadership, real leadership, is one of his strengths. Everybody would say Michael is a great leader. He leads by example, by rebuke, by harsh words. Scottie's leadership was equally dominant, but it's a leadership of patting the back, support."

Phil Jackson
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1017938/5/index.htm

"Scottie was our team leader. He was the guy that directed our offense and he was the guy that took on a lot of big challenges defensively..."

Phil Jackson
http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/2005/12/scottie-pippens-place-in-basketball.html

Bill Wennington echoes the same sentiments in his book, entitled Bill Wennington's Tales from the Bulls Hardwood. He says

"Scottie was my favorite Bull. It's not the most popular thing to say in Chicago, because Michael is supposed to be everybody's favorite. And I loved Michael as a person and as a teammate. I just appreciated Scottie more...

Michael will test you everyday. But Michael will also let you burn in the coach's eyes to see how you handle the situation. Scottie handled his relationships with his teammates differently, and better, in my opinion ...

My first season with the Bulls was the 1993-94 season, the first one Michael did not play because of his initial retirement. In that season I saw Scottie as No. 1...I played with a lot of players--Chris Webber, Mark Aguirre, Sam Perkins--Scottie was head and shoulders above all of those players in terms of leadership and what he stood for as a team basketball player...

...But what Scottie represented to me is a player whom I would pick 1st for my team every time. Even if Michael was available, I would pick Scottie Pippen...

...Scottie led that team ['93-'94 Bulls] to 55 wins...Maybe it's apples to oranges, but that season was an indication of what Scottie was capable of doing as a team leader."
http://books.google.com/books?id=EipQcbzkyvoC&printsec=frontcover&dq=bill+wennington&hl=en&ei=vTiaTKq6MoG0lQeMvJTuDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false pp.11-17

[G.O.A.T]

"On the Bulls he [Pippen] was probably the player most liked by the others. He mingled. He could bring out the best in the players and communicate the best. Leadership, real leadership, is one of his strengths. Everybody would say Michael is a great leader. He leads by example, by rebuke, by harsh words. Scottie's leadership was equally dominant, but it's a leadership of patting the back, support."

Phil Jackson
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1017938/5/index.htm

"Scottie was our team leader. He was the guy that directed our offense and he was the guy that took on a lot of big challenges defensively..."

Phil Jackson
http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/2005/12/scottie-pippens-place-in-basketball.html

Bill Wennington echoes the same sentiments in his book, entitled Bill Wennington's Tales from the Bulls Hardwood. He says

"Scottie was my favorite Bull. It's not the most popular thing to say in Chicago, because Michael is supposed to be everybody's favorite. And I loved Michael as a person and as a teammate. I just appreciated Scottie more...

Michael will test you everyday. But Michael will also let you burn in the coach's eyes to see how you handle the situation. Scottie handled his relationships with his teammates differently, and better, in my opinion ...

My first season with the Bulls was the 1993-94 season, the first one Michael did not play because of his initial retirement. In that season I saw Scottie as No. 1...I played with a lot of players--Chris Webber, Mark Aguirre, Sam Perkins--Scottie was head and shoulders above all of those players in terms of leadership and what he stood for as a team basketball player...

...But what Scottie represented to me is a player whom I would pick 1st for my team every time. Even if Michael was available, I would pick Scottie Pippen...

...Scottie led that team ['93-'94 Bulls] to 55 wins...Maybe it's apples to oranges, but that season was an indication of what Scottie was capable of doing as a team leader."
http://books.google.com/books?id=EipQcbzkyvoC&printsec=frontcover&dq=bill+wennington&hl=en&ei=vTiaTKq6MoG0lQeMvJTuDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false pp.11-17

Very good stuff.

How's Wennington's book overall?

I was under more of the impression that Pippen was more like a Sam Jones who preferred not having the attention on him and kind of a loner.

[Alhazred]

Scottie Pippen dunking from the FT line.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yB0qWqBsMBc

Pippen had such underrated hops, you rarely ever hear people talk about how great a dunker he was.

[jlip]

Very good stuff.

How's Wennington's book overall?

I was under more of the impression that Pippen was more like a Sam Jones who preferred not having the attention on him and kind of a loner.

Thanks.
I only read half of it, but from what I did read, it's a solid piece. I wouldn't say that it's a bestseller quality book though. It's somewhat of a brief, informal first person memoir of his days with the Bulls. He pretty much takes you into the practices and addresses other "non game" matters such as the relationships between the players and his perspectives on them. One thing that I did find rather revealing as well as interesting is that Phil Jackson's mind games and unorthodox psychological approaches baffled his players as much as they do everyone else.

[Micku]

Really? Read the thread. It is insecure MJ fans who hijacked a "cheers to Scottie" thread.

My response was directly to you. Don't you always do this stuff? You say stuff like "ZOMG, Pippen! Wtf?! He was a better team player than MJ! He wasn't just a sidekick! He was the leader of the team!"

Which is shockingly ok. And I won't truly argue with. It's a great argument to say Magic and Bird were better team players than Jordan, but he actually got the criticism forever. I think people even acknowledge that Magic and Bird did make their much teammates better and landed a better impact than Jordan. At least whoever watched them play. Pippen can do things similar.

However, some people do underrate/overrate things. Like the whole Pippen issue. I like this one guy who said, "Jordan fans underrate Pippen. Jordan haters overrate Pippen."

But then you said:



:oldlol: at this "sidekick" label. "Sidekicks" are not legit MVP candidates.
THAT is just not true at all. Mostly all of the greats had sidekicks that were legit MVP candidates. Some were arguably better than they were in that specific time in their careers. And most of them were better than Pippen. There is no attack towards them. wtf?



Kareem -- took a 2nd year expansion team that won 27 games the year before to the ECF as a rookie without Oscar or Magic

Shaq -- always had great teams so there isn't anything to say about him.

Bird -- took a 29 win team to the ECF as a rookie, won a ring with McHale averaging about 10 points on the bench.


Indeed. But so did Hakeem. He took a 29 win team to a 48 win team in his first year. Then he expanded that team to not only beat the Showtime Lakers and went on to the Finals all in his second year. Hakeem actually had a better start and more impact than Jordan too initially. Would you also consider him better than Jordan? Especially as a team player?

You can even argue that LBJ had better impact than Shaq with the impacts on his team.

It's all about having the right chemistry, being at the right time and at the right place. Wilt even acknowledge this when he was asked if he would've been with the Celtics rather than Russel. He felt that team wouldn't do as well. Similar with all the other great players. It all depends.


The real question is strength relative to the league, something MJ fans conveniently ignore due to expansion. Who wins? An average team from 1965 or 1995? The answer is the former. Jordan had a team that won 55 games while replacing him with a D-League scrub. How many other superstars of that era had a team of that strength? Let's see hard facts, not speculation about teams that wound up winning 56 games despite their top player being out for a while but went 8-9 without the superstar in question, as MJ fans did previously when this question was posed.


Kareem had that team too! Hell, they won the title without him despite him being MVP and all. Bird may had that team when Mchale was healthy and hit his prime, being like the best PF ever in the 80s (also fourth in MVP only behind Bird, Magic, and Jordan). But that is speculating which you don't want to do.

But the Bulls also had prime Grant, which goes unnotice too. Then you have the season after 94, which it things didn't look too promising with the Bulls after Grant got out. With your logic, I can make a argument saying Grant was the most important piece to the puzzle instead of Pippen from 88-94.

Grant got traded to the Magic, who ironically enough beat the Bulls and went to the Finals. Did you also know that this was the first time in Shaq's career that he went pass the first round? That was when Grant came in. Without Grant, they may got another knock out in the first round. Hell, they went to the finals with Grant.

Even after Shaq left, they all was pretty decent. They were still in the playoffs with Penny hurt. Grant was battling injuries. They almost beat the Heat too who later on went to the conference finals against the Bulls. If they were more healthy, then would've been a better team.

Meanwhile, Pippen was on his way just to be a mere .500 team without Grant. Then Jordan came back into the picture and got them a few wins. And this is prime Pippen. Once Jordan got back, they were 13-4. And this is when Jordan was a year and half out of practice. The first 17 games with only Pippen, they were 9-8.

The reason why they sucked is because they had lack of talent. Lack of rebounding and etc. Same thing with Jordan in his rookie career. You need talent to win, good coaching, and good system to win. What the Bulls lacked when Jordan left was another scorer. There was no guards in the quality of Jordan and really no real replacement for him unless they could've got a Chris Mullin or someone like him, which I can't think of atm.


Going back to speculation, you are basically claiming that Pippen is a better team player than Jordan. Do you REALLY think that Pippen would've done any better and have more impact than Jordan as a rookie when competition was tougher and with GOAT teams facing you? Do you really think that Pippen would have carried a Bulls team to success without a Grant/Rodman/Jordan?

But....the Bulls 1985-86 had a lot of potential. They brought in some very nice pieces. They just failed because of injuries and not just Jordan. They had the Ice man, still had Woolridge, had Oakley (the re bounder that they were missing, but a rookie). If they would've been healthy then things would've been interesting. My guess they would be looking at a winning record. Shame.

[97 bulls]

Just to reply to some of your point micku, I can't really think of a better number 2 guy thn pippen since I've been watching basketball. And this goes back to the 80s.

And I don't agree with the notion that horace grant was as valuable as pippen based on the won loss record. Or even in orlando. Look at who they replaced grant with. They had a trio of pfs larry krystowiak, corie blount and then settled in on kukoc. 2 were 12th men at best a kukoc was not a PF. So you basically are replacing jordan with pete myers, and grant with the guys I mentioned. Im surprised that team was even 500. in fact they were on pace to finish at 43-39 which is damn good when you consider their starting five was

Armstrong
Myers
longley
pippen
kukoc

Then you bring up grant when shaq left. But neglect to mention that they replaced shaq with rony seikly. Who was a damn good center himself

Like I've stated as well as others, pippen was a bonafied superstar that accepted a position that hurt his personal accolades and stats. And for people to knock him for that is disgraceful.

[Round Mound]

Best All Around SF of the 90s and Best SF of the 90s

He could make others better like Bird, Magic, Barkley and Hakeem

He Was Multi Dimensional Played like a PG and Defended like the Best Forwards

[Micku]

And I don't agree with the notion that horace grant was as valuable as pippen based on the won loss record. Or even in orlando.

I was making a point in saying how I can say that Jordan is to Pippen what Pippen is to Grant type of a deal. Grant was Pippen's second option like Jordan was Pippen second option. They both were very important to their success.

Grant was also in the all defensive second team for multiple years. He was very important to their success as the 3rd or 2nd option player.



Look at who they replaced grant with. They had a trio of pfs larry krystowiak, corie blount and then settled in on kukoc. 2 were 12th men at best a kukoc was not a PF. So you basically are replacing jordan with pete myers, and grant with the guys I mentioned. Im surprised that team was even 500. in fact they were on pace to finish at 43-39 which is damn good when you consider their starting five was

Armstrong
Myers
longley
pippen
kukoc


I agree. But I don't know if they were on pace to win 43-39 or not, because they flirting with the .500 mark.


Then you bring up grant when shaq left. But neglect to mention that they replaced shaq with rony seikly. Who was a damn good center himself

I did fail to mention that. It was my mistake to express the significance of Grant of a compare and contrast of Pippen.


Like I've stated as well as others, pippen was a bonafied superstar that accepted a position that hurt his personal accolades and stats. And for people to knock him for that is disgraceful.

The thing is that Pippen had a chance to show what he could do for a year and half. I think Pippen did show us what he could do with being the main guy. He isn't the type of guy to explode in stats, not like other second options. Imagine if they didn't have Phil Jackson and the crew either.

Pippen isn't a Mchale, Oscar, Magic, Kobe, Kareem, Shaq, Wade, West, or anything. All of the other greats that played the second fiddle were better than Pippen and they won championships. Some of the second options actually won MVP.

Pippen is overrated in this forum by some people to a degree. Probably because of the popularity of Jordan. For an example, Mchale had more potential than Pippen to be one of the greats if he stayed healthy and wasn't overshadow by Bird. I see no threads on him and his potential.

With that said, I think Pippen was overall the best SF in the 90s. But I think you can label a lot teams are champions that have two guys who are the best or one of the best at their specific position. That's common. I agree with people and say Pippen ain't no joke. He is one of the best defenders out there and a jack of all trades.

But where does Pippen really rank among the all time great second option? He is up against a lot of competition. Some are even in the most ppl top 10. That's the discussion people are not having.

[97 bulls]

Its just funny how much of a double standard I see here. Pippens suppose to win 2 championships, and 2 mvps with talent that wasn't anywhere as good as other great players. I just don't see why. I mean, jordan had pippen, bird had mchale, magic had worthy, shaq had kobe, kobe has gasol. And pippen had grant. But he's supposed to do all the things these guys did in 2 seasons. Damn its unfair.

[hitmanyr2k]

But the Bulls also had prime Grant, which goes unnotice too. Then you have the season after 94, which it things didn't look too promising with the Bulls after Grant got out. With your logic, I can make a argument saying Grant was the most important piece to the puzzle instead of Pippen from 88-94.

The '95 Bulls problems ran deeper than Horace. The Bulls' entire frontline was pretty much decimated after '94. Horace left via free agency (more on that later). Bill Cartwright retired. Scott Williams also left via free agency. To compound this the Bulls lost Luc Longley to start the season with a stress fracture in his foot and he didn't come back until after January. So they had to play musical chairs at the PF spot with Dickey Simpkins, Greg Foster, Larry Krystowiak, and Corey Blount and feature Will Perdue at center...a rather mediocre interior core to say the least.


Grant got traded to the Magic, who ironically enough beat the Bulls and went to the Finals. Did you also know that this was the first time in Shaq's career that he went pass the first round? That was when Grant came in. Without Grant, they may got another knock out in the first round. Hell, they went to the finals with Grant.

The Bulls didn't trade Horace. He left as a free agent and nothing was gonna make him come back to the Bulls after '94. Jerry Krause in particular pissed off Horace during contract negotiations when he slighted him and named PFs that he thought were better and did this publicly right before the playoffs which was pretty damn stupid on a GMs part. I'm not sure if this affected Horace's play but his numbers dropped drastically during the playoffs...especially his rebounding numbers.


Meanwhile, Pippen was on his way just to be a mere .500 team without Grant.

Which is what happens when a team loses its frontline.


Then Jordan came back into the picture and got them a few wins. And this is prime Pippen. Once Jordan got back, they were 13-4.

Before Jordan came back the team was starting to gel with Longley in the lineup and they had won 8 out of their last 10 games.


And this is when Jordan was a year and half out of practice. The first 17 games with only Pippen, they were 9-8.

Which is what happens when you don't have a frontline or talented scorers around.


The reason why they sucked is because they had lack of talent. Lack of rebounding and etc. Same thing with Jordan in his rookie career. You need talent to win, good coaching, and good system to win. What the Bulls lacked when Jordan left was another scorer. There was no guards in the quality of Jordan and really no real replacement for him unless they could've got a Chris Mullin or someone like him, which I can't think of atm.

Exactly.

[DeronMillsap]

Pippen is better than LeBron. More rings, better defense and much ferocious hunger and hatred against his opponents. He would never join forces with his competition.

Pippen hated the Knicks. Pippen hated Miller and the Pacers. Pippen hated the Jazz. He hated the Pistons. He played with heart, he never quit. Pip is a legend. I still don't understand why people look down on him, just because Jordan was the GOAT.

People don't look down on Kobe between 2000-07 did they? And he played with one of the most dominating center ever.

Pippen deserves more respect.

[97 bulls]

It's only unfair if you're trying to say he was on the same level as guys like Bird, Shaq, Kobe or Jordan. You shouldn't be trying to do that as he was not that type of player.

You may believe he could have been, but he wasn't.
You're right, I just don't see why he couldn't have been. That's what frustrates me. I think he could've been based on what I saw how well he did in 94 and 95.

[G.O.A.T]

You're right, I just don't see why he couldn't have been. That's what frustrates me. I think he could've been based on what I saw how well he did in 94 and 95.

Maybe, and I don't think that's unfair to think.

My guess, for what that's worth, is that it probably would have ended for Pippen the way it did for Barkley and Patrick Ewing. Close, but no cigar.

[97 bulls]

Maybe, and I don't think that's unfair to think.

My guess, for what that's worth, is that it probably would have ended for Pippen the way it did for Barkley and Patrick Ewing. Close, but no cigar.
Even with them. I never saw a season where I believed that these guys had the best team in the league. Maybe 93 for barkley. Either way, im just sick of people saying he couldn't. At least you leave it open as a possibility

[kizut1659]

Maybe, and I don't think that's unfair to think.

My guess, for what that's worth, is that it probably would have ended for Pippen the way it did for Barkley and Patrick Ewing. Close, but no cigar.

I am not sure he would have been that close actually. 1993-1994 was a weird season, with Atlanta led by aging Dominique Wilkins and then Danny freaking Manning WINNING the East. As such, 55 games by the Bulls is kind of impressive but not THAT special. The fact that Bulls almost knocked out the Knicks is also impressive but one has to consider that the team was full of role players who knew how to win coming of three straight championships -Grant, BJ Armstrong, Cartwright. Also, the Knicks were almost knocked out by a 47-win Indiana Pacers so its not like they were some kind of juggernaut.

In 1994-1995, the Bulls were a .500 team untill Jordan came back. We all know what happened to Pippen after 1998. So I frankly don't think he would have been as succesful as Barkley or even Ewing on his own.

[97 bulls]

I am not sure he would have been that close actually. 1993-1994 was a weird season, with Atlanta led by aging Dominique Wilkins and then Danny freaking Manning WINNING the East. As such, 55 games by the Bulls is kind of impressive but not THAT special. The fact that Bulls almost knocked out the Knicks is also impressive but one has to consider that the team was full of role players who knew how to win coming of three straight championships -Grant, BJ Armstrong, Cartwright. Also, the Knicks were almost knocked out by a 47-win Indiana Pacers so its not like they were some kind of juggernaut.

In 1994-1995, the Bulls were a .500 team untill Jordan came back. We all know what happened to Pippen after 1998. So I frankly don't think he would have been as succesful as Barkley or even Ewing on his own.
Wow, spoken like a true hater. All I read in this post is jealousy, excuses,and hatred.

[A.R.T]

I'll never forget that nasty dunk he had on Ewing, and then just walking over to Spike Lee and mouthing off. :applause:

[kizut1659]

Wow, spoken like a true hater. All I read in this post is jealousy, excuses,and hatred.

I actually liked Pippen (even though i rooted against the Bulls) untill the debacle in Houston, where he blamed Barkley while himself shooting 32% from the field. Pippen's subsequent tenure in the JailBlazers did not help matters

[97 bulls]

I actually liked Pippen (even though i rooted against the Bulls) untill the debacle in Houston, where he blamed Barkley while himself shooting 32% from the field. Pippen's subsequent tenure in the JailBlazers did not help matters
Lol ok bro. This is similar to the ever popular term, "im not racist, some of my best friends are black. But I don't want them living next to me."

[Duncan21formvp]

Wow, spoken like a true hater. All I read in this post is jealousy, excuses,and hatred.

How is he a hater for saying that? Barkley, Malone never won despite having star talent by their side and despite being perenial MVP candidates.

[97 bulls]

How is he a hater for saying that? Barkley, Malone never won despite having star talent by their side and despite being perenial MVP candidates.
First, he questions their competition, players were old, he says the knicks weren't that good. And actually, the 95 bulls were I believe 3 games over 500 when jordan came back.and even if they were .500 as talent goes, they werent even that good. That was a 30 win team. Why not just give credit where credit is due. Like I told old school basketball. I could poke holes in any season and find excuses as to why a team did or didn't win.

[97 bulls]

I just checked and the hawks had wilkins who in 34 minutes avg 24 ppg, kevin willis was avg 19 and 12, danny manning, and arguably the best defensive backcourt that year with mookie blaylock and stacy augmon. And both of them chipped in 14 to 15 ppg. And craig ehlo was a solid 6th man. Why is that not a mid 50 win team? And the knicks were the bulls biggest rival with jordan. But once jordan leaves, they're not good enough? Come on

[guy]

I just checked and the hawks had wilkins who in 34 minutes avg 24 ppg, kevin willis was avg 19 and 12, danny manning, and arguably the best defensive backcourt that year with mookie blaylock and stacy augmon. And both of them chipped in 14 to 15 ppg. And craig ehlo was a solid 6th man. Why is that not a mid 50 win team? And the knicks were the bulls biggest rival with jordan. But once jordan leaves, they're not good enough? Come on

Nique and Manning were traded for each other. They never played together.

[97 bulls]

Nique and Manning were traded for each other. They never played together.
Oh well then I guess they're really a 40 win team then. Lol

[guy]

Oh well then I guess they're really a 40 win team then. Lol

Never said that. Just correcting you.

[97 bulls]

Never said that. Just correcting you.
I know. Im just joking

[G.O.A.T]

I am not sure he would have been that close actually. 1993-1994 was a weird season, with Atlanta led by aging Dominique Wilkins and then Danny freaking Manning WINNING the East. As such, 55 games by the Bulls is kind of impressive but not THAT special. The fact that Bulls almost knocked out the Knicks is also impressive but one has to consider that the team was full of role players who knew how to win coming of three straight championships -Grant, BJ Armstrong, Cartwright. Also, the Knicks were almost knocked out by a 47-win Indiana Pacers so its not like they were some kind of juggernaut.

In 1994-1995, the Bulls were a .500 team untill Jordan came back. We all know what happened to Pippen after 1998. So I frankly don't think he would have been as succesful as Barkley or even Ewing on his own.

Don't just look at basketball reference to recap what happened in a season.

Wilkins was traded for Manning late in the season, they never played together.

1993-94 was a lousy NBA year and 55 wins were easier to come by than five years prior, but still it deserves credit. If you gave Pippen another 20+ per game score, even if he was one dimensional, I believe the Bulls could have been as good as the Ewing Knicks or Robinson Spurs if not better.

I'm not sure he would have been as successful as those guys, but I do feel pretty sure he wasn't going to win a title.

[Teanett]

Don't just look at basketball reference to recap what happened in a season.

Wilkins was traded for Manning late in the season, they never played together.

1993-94 was a lousy NBA year and 55 wins were easier to come by than five years prior, but still it deserves credit. If you gave Pippen another 20+ per game score, even if he was one dimensional, I believe the Bulls could have been as good as the Ewing Knicks or Robinson Spurs if not better.

I'm not sure he would have been as successful as those guys, but I do feel pretty sure he wasn't going to win a title.

they were as good as the knicks.
that series could have gone either way.
remember that the bulls had 3 all stars that year!

[kizut1659]

Don't just look at basketball reference to recap what happened in a season.

Wilkins was traded for Manning late in the season, they never played together.

1993-94 was a lousy NBA year and 55 wins were easier to come by than five years prior, but still it deserves credit. If you gave Pippen another 20+ per game score, even if he was one dimensional, I believe the Bulls could have been as good as the Ewing Knicks or Robinson Spurs if not better.

I'm not sure he would have been as successful as those guys, but I do feel pretty sure he wasn't going to win a title.

Sorry if my post I wasn't clear. I know that Manning was traded for Wilkins, (one of the stupidest trades ever in my opinion) which actually reinforces my point - the best player on the team with the best record in the East was an aging Wilkins and then Danny Manning/Kevin Willis.

I agree about another 20+ per scorer on the Bulls but that was kind of my point - Ewing and Robinson did not have another 20+ point scorer. That said, I don't necessarily put Pippen below either of the two - i think all 3 are in the same tier. (with Barkley and Malone however in the higher tier.)

[G.O.A.T]

Sorry if my post I wasn't clear. I know that Manning was traded for Wilkins, (one of the stupidest trades ever in my opinion) which actually reinforces my point - the best player on the team with the best record in the East was an aging Wilkins and then Danny Manning/Kevin Willis.

I agree about another 20+ per scorer on the Bulls but that was kind of my point - Ewing and Robinson did not have another 20+ point scorer. That said, I don't necessarily put Pippen below either of the two - i think all 3 are in the same tier. (with Barkley and Malone however in the higher tier.)

Gotcha, and I agree about Chuck and Karl too. I have them above Robinson, Pippen and Drexler even though they never got rings.


they were as good as the knicks.
that series could have gone either way.
remember that the bulls had 3 all stars that year!

The Knicks also had three All-Stars that year.

They had more regular season injuries, had to use seven different guards in their top three because of those injuries and still won more games.

Then the Knicks beat them in the playoffs. They never trailed in the series and never lost a home game. They won game seven handily, it's not fair to the Knicks to say that series could have gone either way. No the Knicks were not dramatically better than the Bulls, but they were better and proved it by beating them.

[Roundball_Rock]

it's not fair to the Knicks to say that series could have gone either way.

It can be argued that the Knicks were indeed the superior team but the quoted statement is a head scratcher.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_BquY6zd9Wxo/SDC2CV0FEaI/AAAAAAAAC10/RDyDc0jijrc/s320/phantomfoul-731723.jpg

It also is not as if the games were blow outs. Games 1, 2, 3 and the infamous Game 5 went right down the wire. (Unfortunately, the Bulls blew significant leads in the first two games, although Pippen getting, pardon the pun, nicked up at the end of one game because Oakley or Starks intentionally tripped him contributed to one loss.) Of the three double digit wins, two of them were Chicago victories.

The injuries issue cuts both ways. Had Pippen had the health of Ewing the Bulls would have had HCA, and as you noted, thanks to what happened in Game 5, the home team won every game in the series. The Bulls had injuries to their top two players and three of their top four during the regular season--a stark change from their health the previous season.

People always look at 55 wins versus 57. The last game was between the Bulls and Knicks and was meaningless. (the Knicks won) On paper the Knicks may have been significantly superior but judging by performance, both overall performance and head-to-head performance, the teams were at parity--despite the Bulls having a D-Leaguer as their starting SG because MJ retired 2 days before training camp.

Robinson Spurs? They won 55 games too but got bounced 1-3 in the first round despite enjoying HCA.

[EarlTheGoat]

Jordan wouldnt be sh*t without Pippen.



dawg, u have been trolled

[G.O.A.T]

It can be argued that the Knicks were indeed the superior team but the quoted statement is a head scratcher.

Not if you had the ability to think rationally on the subject.

No one ever says the 1992 ECSF could have gone either way or that the Knicks were as good as the Bulls, and they actually won a road game in that series.

Or in 1993 when the Knicks were up 2-0 on the Bulls and won more regular season games than them, I've not seen you post how "if the Knicks get a few calls to go their way in game five they win that series"

The Knicks earned home court, protected it and had control of that series and game seven from start to finish.


It also is not as if the games were blow outs. Games 1, 2, 3 and the infamous Game 5 went right down the wire. (Unfortunately, the Bulls blew significant leads in the first two games, although Pippen getting, pardon the pun, nicked up at the end of one game because Oakley or Starks intentionally tripped him contributed to one loss.) Of the three double digit wins, two of them were Chicago victories.


The injuries issue cuts both ways. Had Pippen had the health of Ewing the Bulls would have had HCA

I love how you state it like it's a fact. And the best part, you probably think it is because of the teams record with Pippen and Grant healthy. Like that's all that goes into it.

What was the Knicks record without Starks?

How about if the Knicks had the same two starters at guard for more than eight games in a row once all year? Would that have made any difference?

You only look at things the way you want to see them. Because of this, most people just ignore you. (Like I should be doing)



The Bulls had injuries to their top two players and three of their top four during the regular season--a stark change from their health the previous season.

Speaking of Stark, John Starks, the Knicks second best player missed more games than Pippen and Grant combined.

In addition Hubert Davis, Derek Harper and Rolondo Blackman, three of the Knicks top five guards, all missed over 25 games leaving the PG duties to Greg Anthony, not a starting caliber player.

But you either didn;t know that (I doubt it) or ignore it all the time when talking about 1994.


People always look at 55 wins versus 57. The last game was between the Bulls and Knicks and was meaningless. (the Knicks won) On paper the Knicks may have been significantly superior but judging by performance, both overall performance and head-to-head performance, the teams were at parity--despite the Bulls having a D-Leaguer as their starting SG because MJ retired 2 days before training camp.

Oh you mean Pete Myers, who put up better numbers than Greg Anthony who was forced into a primary role for the Knicks?

All the problems are the Bulls though right?


Robinson Spurs? They won 55 games too but got bounced 1-3 in the first round despite enjoying HCA.

Robinson also took teams to the second round three times and conference finals once while only playing with two all-stars the whole time (Pip had two in '94 alone) in a stronger conference.

But let's not let facts get in the way of what we want other people to believe.

[Fatal9]

What was the Knicks record without Starks?

With Starks:

40-19 (.678)

Without Starks:

17-6 (.739)

Didn't affect their record at all. Guy was a poor decision making chucker, might have been the second best player on the Knicks but he didn't have Pippen/Grant type of impact for his team.


You only look at things the way you want to see them.
Says the guy who spent hours typing this post (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4982924&postcount=98) which was shortly shredded/exposed asbeing a biased hit piece (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4986678&postcount=110), still awaiting a response hypocrite. I see you've been salty since then though, no response but negging away LOL.

[Da_Realist]

Scottie Pippen: A Tribute Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhgB53mcNXs)

[97 bulls]

Scottie Pippen: A Tribute Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhgB53mcNXs)
Great post real. Its funny when people say that pippen was a product of the triangleand couldn't create his own shot.

[Da_Realist]

Great post real. Its funny when people say that pippen was a product of the triangleand couldn't create his own shot.

Thanks, man :cheers: Hardest video I've ever done

[Fatal9]

Scottie Pippen: A Tribute Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhgB53mcNXs)
Great post. Repped. I was thinking of working on something like that but there's so much 90s Bulls footage, that there's a lot to go through. "Part 1" means there will be part 2, part 3...? :eek:

[Jodie Meeks]

Says the guy who spent hours typing this post (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4982924&postcount=98) which was shortly shredded/exposed asbeing a biased hit piece (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4986678&postcount=110), still awaiting a response hypocrite. I see you've been salty since then though, no response but negging away LOL.

:lol That ownage at it's greatest point.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Great post real. Its funny when people say that pippen was a product of the triangleand couldn't create his own shot.

You do realize that when people say that he "couldn't" create his own shot, it's all relative, right? He's a tier 1 NBA player - OF COURSE he can create his on shot. His ability to do so was well below where it should have been based on his athletic traits and the level of player he was, however.

[Jodie Meeks]

You do realize that when people say that he "couldn't" create his own shot, it's all relative, right? He's a tier 1 NBA player - OF COURSE he can create his on shot. His ability to do so was well below where it should have been based on his athletic traits and the level of player he was, however.

But, he still could create his own shot though...:confusedshrug:

[Da_Realist]

Great post. Repped. I was thinking of working on something like that but there's so much 90s Bulls footage, that there's a lot to go through. "Part 1" means there will be part 2, part 3...? :eek:

:cheers:

It's exhausting research. With the other greats, you can cheat. You already have a sense of when they had great moments, big shots, etc... With Pippen, I had to watch, skim and fast forward through tons of games to catch the right plays. Pippen could go 1-9 then dunk on Alonzo Mourning but it not make the highlights because MJ scored 42 that night. Like I said, you can't cheat when doing a Pippen video.

I broke up the video into 2 parts (offense/defense) because I didn't want Pippen to only be known for defense. He was extremely athletic. He made some nice passes (most didn't make the cut), clutch shots and nasty facials. He was more than a defender. But I couldn't leave that out, so that's part 2.

[Fatal9]

I can look through a lot of Pippen game clips I've saved over the years if you want to add them. I probably won't make any compilations now since you make them exactly how I like (no music, only game footage with commentary) so let me know.

[D.J.]

Arguably the best small forward after Bird. The key is whether or not you rank him above Doc or not.

[Da_Realist]

Arguably the best small forward after Bird. The key is whether or not you rank him above Doc or not.

I think Pip was Doc 2.0

[Roundball_Rock]

Or in 1993 when the Knicks were up 2-0 on the Bulls and won more regular season games than them, I've not seen you post how "if the Knicks get a few calls to go their way in game five they win that series"

:oldlol:

That is strange since several times I have said with a break or two here and there the Knicks could have won, with Charles Smith being the prime example.


You only look at things the way you want to see them. Because of this, most people just ignore you. (Like I should be doing)

That is very naive. We all look at things the way we want to see them. Some of us are capable of recognizing that; others are in denial.


How about if the Knicks had the same two starters at guard for more than eight games in a row once all year? Would that have made any difference?

It is funny how all these shades of gray are invoked by you when it comes to the Knicks. Why not play the same game with the Bulls? It isn't just Pippen. Grant, Kukoc missed time as well. The Bulls had a D-Leaguer at SG since MJ retired 2 days before training camp.


Robinson also took teams to the second round three times and conference finals once while only playing with two all-stars the whole time (Pip had two in '94 alone) in a stronger conference.

Over what period of time? Again, you are adopting an objective pose whole engaging in spin.

1) Why didn't you mention the period of time Robinson did that during?
2) What relevance does what Robinson did in 95' (only WCF trip) have to 94'?
3) Why didn't you mention BJ Armstrong was a 14/4 all-star who was voted in by the fans because he was a Bull? You actually are trying to sell him as a legit all-star. :oldlol:


But let's not let facts get in the way of what we want other people to believe.

This coming from someone who actually is trying to claim the Knicks were clearly superior to the Bulls.


With Starks:

40-19 (.678)

Without Starks:

17-6 (.739)


:roll: :cheers:


This is very damning. He had to know that but strangely not only opted not to mention that but insinuated the Knicks struggled without Starks. What a hypocrite (do you have the Kareem-Walton thread? :oldlol: ). He a great poster but the faux pose of scholarly objectivity he adopts is amusing.

It is hilarious to see a big Bill Russell partisan like him diminish the Russell of SF's. You don't see any rhetoric about "leadership" (he actually said Pip was not a good leader earlier in the thread), "intangibles", "defense" and "winning" when it comes to his commentary on Pippen, do you? Instead we see emphasis on things like scoring. 15 ppg>50 ppg based on winning/defense/intangibles/leadership but 22 ppg<28 ppg despite the same metrics falling on the former player's side.

[Da_Realist]

The video is posted by Kelly Dwyer of Yahoo Sports :cheers:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Video-Scottie-Pippen-s-brilliance?urn=nba-287399

[AI3Anthony]

Not gonna lie. I never noticed how GREAT a defender he was. Good video.

[Da_Realist]

Scottie Pippen: A Tribute Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fd3AZdmHSIQ)

[magnax1]

Arguably the best small forward after Bird. The key is whether or not you rank him above Doc or not.
Come on. Barry? Baylor? Havlicek?

[D.J.]

Come on. Barry? Baylor? Havlicek?


Scottie played great at both ends. He had seasons of 21/7+/7, 22/8+/5+/3, and 21/8/5/3. The three you mentioned are a lot like Iverson. Great offensive players, but not so great on the defensive end. Offensively, they weren't much more than volume scorers.

[hitmanyr2k]

Scottie played great at both ends. He had seasons of 21/7+/7, 22/8+/5+/3, and 21/8/5/3. The three you mentioned are a lot like Iverson. Great offensive players, but not so great on the defensive end. Offensively, they weren't much more than volume scorers.

Where the hell have you been? You didn't hear? Defense doesn't count anymore. Defense doesn't show up all nice and pretty on a stat sheet like big scoring numbers. It's all about volume chucking these days.

[D.J.]

Where the hell have you been? You didn't hear? Defense doesn't count anymore. Defense doesn't show up all nice and pretty on a stat sheet like big scoring numbers. It's all about volume chucking these days.


Obviously, it doesn't count.

[PHILA]

Hondo wasn't so great on the defensive end? :ohwell:

[G.O.A.T]

Scottie played great at both ends. He had seasons of 21/7+/7, 22/8+/5+/3, and 21/8/5/3. The three you mentioned are a lot like Iverson. Great offensive players, but not so great on the defensive end. Offensively, they weren't much more than volume scorers.

Why do you feel qualified to register an opinion on something you clearly know nothing about?

[Round Mound]

If Pippen would not have played with one of the greatest ball hoggs in NBA History he would have been a constant 22 (48%), 8, 7, 2, 1.5 Player

His stats are lowered because he had to play in a triangle offense

No player had more responsabilities than Pippen in the Bulls

He had to guard the Best Offensive Player
He had to control the Perimeter Defensively
He had to be the 2nd Best Rebounder
He had to be the Creator (Jordan was a pathetic creator for others, Timing Plays)
He had to be the 2nd Lead Scorer


U have to sacrifice stats if u play with the biggest ball hogg of the 80s and early 90s

[Da_Realist]

If Pippen would not have played with one of the greatest ball hoggs in NBA History he would have been a constant 22 (48%), 8, 7, 2, 1.5 Player

His stats are lowered because he had to play in a triangle offense

No player had more responsabilities than Pippen in the Bulls

He had to guard the Best Offensive Player
He had to control the Perimeter Defensively
He had to be the 2nd Best Rebounder
He had to be the Creator (Jordan was a pathetic creator for others, Timing Plays)
He had to be the 2nd Lead Scorer


U have to sacrifice stats if u play with the biggest ball hogg of the 80s and early 90s

^^ Perfect example of why Pippen will forever go unappreciated. He's either used as a tool to diminish Jordan or not thought of at all. What the f*ck is "Timing Plays" anyway? This thread shouldn't be about Jordan. Why should we need to prop up or denigrate Jordan just to show "appreciation" for Pippen? That shouldn't be anyone's legacy. But this fool doesn't care because he's not a Pippen fan. He just hates Jordan.

[G.O.A.T]

^^ Perfect example of why Pippen will forever go unappreciated. He's either used as a tool to diminish Jordan or not thought of at all. What the f*ck is "Timing Plays" anyway? This thread shouldn't be about Jordan. Why should we need to prop up or denigrate Jordan just to show "appreciation" for Pippen? That shouldn't be anyone's legacy. But this fool doesn't care because he's not a Pippen fan. He just hates Jordan.

I agree, the majority of Pippen backers try to tear down Jordan to prop up Pippen.

Sometimes a players greatness speaks for itself and those who don't understand it certainly won't come any closer if you use phrases like "Jordan was a pathetic creator for others."

[Da_Realist]

a players greatness speaks for itself

Perfect statement.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to G.O.A.T again.

[Roundball_Rock]

:oldlol: at the irony. Where was the castigation when MJ backers--as they do in every Pippen thread--started "tearing down Pippen to prop up Jordan" early in this thread? The castigation needed 10 pages to manifest. GOAT, weren't you the one who on page 1 of this thread was claiming Pippen was not a good leader? :lol That isn't "tearing down", though, right? Surely that was based on solid evidence of leadership or the lack thereof, such as scoring average and playoff career highs in scoring.

[Round Mound]

^^ Perfect example of why Pippen will forever go unappreciated. He's either used as a tool to diminish Jordan or not thought of at all. What the f*ck is "Timing Plays" anyway? This thread shouldn't be about Jordan. Why should we need to prop up or denigrate Jordan just to show "appreciation" for Pippen? That shouldn't be anyone's legacy. But this fool doesn't care because he's not a Pippen fan. He just hates Jordan.

I am Jordan fan to. I consider him the Best SG guard ever but i am not going to overrate him like his fans, no way.

But he was never a hero to anyone but Nike: The media puts it out as he dominated games to a total. Which is not true ofcourse.

Wilt did that.

We need to say it how it is with the so many Jordan Stans around.

Roundball where is the thred i made about Pippen`s Winning % with Higher Usage.

[Round Mound]

If Jordan was a player that made others better

Explain to us how when he left in 1993-94 the Bulls had 55 wins?

Everyone, Everyone shot a higher FG%. If that team was so bad they would have scored at a lower FG% but it was the total opposite.

Pippen finished Top 4 In PER without the ball hogg.

Thats how good Pippen was without Jordan.

Jordan never made ANYONE BETTER, EVER!

[G.O.A.T]

:oldlol: at the irony. Where was the castigation when MJ backers--as they do in every Pippen thread--started "tearing down Pippen to prop up Jordan" early in this thread?

Most people who make a case for MJ don't even mention Pippen. But rest assured the same standard should be held both ways.


The castigation needed 10 pages to manifest. GOAT, weren't you the one who on page 1 of this thread was claiming Pippen was not a good leader?

No, I wasn't actually. Here's what I said


The only thing he couldn't do was take over a game wit his scoring. He really didn't have many moves to create his own shot and was a great shooter off the dribble.

That's not much of a weakness considering he was still a 20 point scorer, but it was very rare that Pippen went for 30.

I always liked his demeanor on the court, so calm and consistent he never seemed to get rattled. And very few players were as smooth.

Defensively I think he gets a little overrated now (only by people who say he is one of the best few defensive players ever), but that's not to say he wasn't one of the best perimeter defenders of his era, because he was. The best part about his defense is that he accepted that role, as the #1 defensive option. He guarded everyone from Isiah Thomas to Chris Webber to Larry Johnson and everyone in between.

Specific to leadership I said this about Pippen in a scenario as histeams best player...


I also don't think he would have been a good leader, but he never really had to be so i don't hold that against him. As it is I believe it's between him and John Havilcek and Kevin McHale as the best complimentary star players of all-time. All guys who could play and guard multiple positions as well as score, rebound and pass.

Later after looking more into the Pippen leadership angle, I asked this question:


What examples do we have of Pippen being a good leader?

Late in his career he was a cancer in Houston and the so-called leader of the most undisciplined team in the NBA (Portland)

He was almost never a problem player, but I never thought of him as a leader.

Someone set me straight if I'm wrong.

Seem's pretty fair to me...especially after this response from jlip


"On the Bulls he [Pippen] was probably the player most liked by the others. He mingled. He could bring out the best in the players and communicate the best. Leadership, real leadership, is one of his strengths. Everybody would say Michael is a great leader. He leads by example, by rebuke, by harsh words. Scottie's leadership was equally dominant, but it's a leadership of patting the back, support."

Phil Jackson
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1017938/5/index.htm

"Scottie was our team leader. He was the guy that directed our offense and he was the guy that took on a lot of big challenges defensively..."

Phil Jackson
http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/2005/12/scottie-pippens-place-in-basketball.html

Bill Wennington echoes the same sentiments in his book, entitled Bill Wennington's Tales from the Bulls Hardwood. He says

"Scottie was my favorite Bull. It's not the most popular thing to say in Chicago, because Michael is supposed to be everybody's favorite. And I loved Michael as a person and as a teammate. I just appreciated Scottie more...

Michael will test you everyday. But Michael will also let you burn in the coach's eyes to see how you handle the situation. Scottie handled his relationships with his teammates differently, and better, in my opinion ...

My first season with the Bulls was the 1993-94 season, the first one Michael did not play because of his initial retirement. In that season I saw Scottie as No. 1...I played with a lot of players--Chris Webber, Mark Aguirre, Sam Perkins--Scottie was head and shoulders above all of those players in terms of leadership and what he stood for as a team basketball player...

...But what Scottie represented to me is a player whom I would pick 1st for my team every time. Even if Michael was available, I would pick Scottie Pippen...

...Scottie led that team ['93-'94 Bulls] to 55 wins...Maybe it's apples to oranges, but that season was an indication of what Scottie was capable of doing as a team leader."
http://books.google.com/books?id=EipQcbzkyvoC&printsec=frontcover&dq=bill+wennington&hl=en&ei=vTiaTKq6MoG0lQeMvJTuDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false pp.11-17

And my response to being set straight...


Very good stuff.

How's Wennington's book overall?

I was under more of the impression that Pippen was more like a Sam Jones who preferred not having the attention on him and kind of a loner.


lol That isn't "tearing down", though, right? Surely that was based on solid evidence of leadership or the lack thereof, such as scoring average and playoff career highs in scoring.

If only you could have went back and read what was actually said and look at within the context of the discussion.

[Round Mound]

Jordan`s HOF speech

"Me Me Me Me Me, I Took the Last Shot, I Wish Russell was Still Guarding Me"

He mentioned Pippen at the beggining of the Speech and the rest he talked about how he was the Greatest Competitor Ever etc etc etc.

Half of the Speech Should have been about Pippen and yes Phil Jackson.

But no he got passed that at and then wen`t on about his heroics.

Jordan would have NO RINGS WITHOUT PIPPEN OR PHIL.

Fact

Jordan never had a Winning % without Pippen, Grant and Phil.

Then he had Rodman: The Goat Rebounder of the 90s and a Top Defender.

Kukoc: Great Player All Around too.

Jordan had Great Teams gtfout here Jordan stans.

[Round Mound]

:oldlol: at the irony. Where was the castigation when MJ backers--as they do in every Pippen thread--started "tearing down Pippen to prop up Jordan" early in this thread? The castigation needed 10 pages to manifest. GOAT, weren't you the one who on page 1 of this thread was claiming Pippen was not a good leader? :lol That isn't "tearing down", though, right? Surely that was based on solid evidence of leadership or the lack thereof, such as scoring average and playoff career highs in scoring.

:applause:


Roundball

Where is the Thred i made about Jordan`s Winning % without Pippen and Grant, Phil and the System Perfect for the Ball Hogg. Where Pippen did more things than every player.

Jordan`s Usage % Lowered and Let Pippen do the CREATING and they won.

Thats how it was. He was no Hero to Anyone but those who like flashy ballet slam dunks and acrobatic shots. Thats it

[Da_Realist]

If Jordan was a player that made others better

Explain to us how when he left in 1993-94 the Bulls had 55 wins?

Everyone, Everyone shot a higher FG%. If that team was so bad they would have scored at a lower FG% but it was the total opposite.

Pippen finished Top 4 In PER without the ball hogg.

Thats how good Pippen was without Jordan.

Jordan never made ANYONE BETTER, EVER!

Dig a little deeper. Look at the franchise before MJ. Look at the changes that needed to happen over the long haul. Look at how many coaches that came and went. Pippen came in 87. Jordan was already there in 84. Who set the tone for practice every single day? Who set the tone for the Bulls to be competitive every single game? Who set that standard? I know you can get this...

Do you know that 1994 was Pippen's 7th year? Pippen didn't start the company, he maintained the company in the CEO's absence. He should be given great credit for that, but let's not act like he's better than the guy that built the company in the first place. Pippen was an apprentice for 7 years. Didn't have to answer the tough questions. He could just let his play speak for itself for 7 years. We didn't see Pippen at year 2 lead anything -- he didn't have to. Because (you know the answer). In your honest opinion, could Pippen have led that team to 55 wins in 91? Who did Pippen himself credit for helping him reach his potential? Do you think Pippen would have been Pippen playing beside fat, lazy, unmotivated Charles Barkley for the first 7 years of his career?

Do you know that Jordan led a much worse cast with a different coach to 50 wins in your precious 80's (1988) when he was much younger and had less experience? No Phil Jackson (as head coach), no triangle offense, no great player beside him. 50 wins. Why would we think a more championship experienced version of Jordan working with Phil Jackson within the triangle offense after having won 3 titles couldn't do 5 games better if everyone started the season saying they wouldn't win squat?

[juju151111]

Dig a little deeper. Look at the franchise before MJ. Look at the changes that needed to happen over the long haul. Look at how many coaches that came and went. Pippen came in 87. Jordan was already there in 84. Who set the tone for practice every single day? Who set the tone for the Bulls to be competitive every single game? Who set that standard? I know you can get this...

Do you know that 1994 was Pippen's 7th year? Pippen didn't start the company, he maintained the company in the CEO's absence. He should be given great credit for that, but let's not act like he's better than the guy that built the company in the first place. Pippen was an apprentice for 7 years. Didn't have to answer the tough questions. He could just let his play speak for itself for 7 years. We didn't see Pippen at year 2 lead anything -- he didn't have to. Because (you know the answer). In your honest opinion, could Pippen have led that team to 55 wins in 91? Who did Pippen himself credit for helping him reach his potential? Do you think Pippen would have been Pippen playing beside fat, lazy, unmotivated Charles Barkley for the first 7 years of his career?

Do you know that Jordan led a much worse cast with a different coach to 50 wins in your precious 80's (1988) when he was much younger and had less experience? No Phil Jackson (as head coach), no triangle offense, no great player beside him. 50 wins. Why would we think a more championship experienced version of Jordan working with Phil Jackson within the triangle offense after having won 3 titles couldn't do 5 games better if everyone started the season saying they wouldn't win squat?
The funny thing about 1988 his 2nd leading scorer only played 20+ games :lol Mj was just on another level in 1988. He snatched a MVP from Bird and Magic when it looked like they would take the rest of the decades MVP.

[Round Mound]

Dig a little deeper. Look at the franchise before MJ. Look at the changes that needed to happen over the long haul. Look at how many coaches that came and went. Pippen came in 87. Jordan was already there in 84. Who set the tone for practice every single day? Who set the tone for the Bulls to be competitive every single game? Who set that standard? I know you can get this...

The changes for Jordan to win was Phil.

Pippen as the Point-Forward (less creating for the ball hogg with no court vision).

Jordan was a great competitor i agree but he was no god, who set the standard? Phil

Jordan was untrianable because he did not like to share the ball.


Do you know that 1994 was Pippen's 7th year? Pippen didn't start the company, he maintained the company in the CEO's absence.

I don`t give a shit about who started the company.

No Jordan = the following:

-Everyone Shot a Higher FG%
-Pippen 4th In PER, Top in DRT (only SF in the top)
-Grant shot higher
-Pippen shot higher
- Paxon shot higher etc..

55 Wins.

He should be given great credit for that, but let's not act like he's better than the guy that built the company in the first place. Pippen was an apprentice for 7 years. Didn't have to answer the tough questions. He could just let his play speak for itself for 7 years. We didn't see Pippen at year 2 lead anything -- he didn't have to. Because (you know the answer). In your honest opinion, could Pippen have led that team to 55 wins in 91? Who did Pippen himself credit for helping him reach his potential? Do you think Pippen would have been Pippen playing beside fat, lazy, unmotivated Charles Barkley for the first 7 years of his career?

Barkley had back problems from 1994 on the same was Bird and then he busted his knee the 1996-97 season. Barkley was lazy? yes...but once the game started he played hard.

Pippen did shit the 1999 Play-Offs: Barkley owned the Lakers at age 35 while Hakeem and Pippen did nothing. Pippen shot 42% FG that series

Why do u bring up Barkley this is about Pippen u pie-ce of shit.


Do you know that Jordan led a much worse cast with a different coach to 50 wins in your precious 80's (1988) when he was much younger and had less experience? No Phil Jackson (as head coach), no triangle offense, no great player beside him. 50 wins. Why would we think a more championship experienced version of Jordan working with Phil Jackson within the triangle offense after having won 3 titles couldn't do 5 games better if everyone started the season saying they wouldn't win squat?

1985-86: Jordan injured: Bulls MADE IT TO THE PLAY-OFFS.

Loosing % because thats how it was in the 80s, competitive era un like the 90s.

How did he make others better?

Jordan is the creation of Phil, The Triangle Offense (for it to work u need a Creating Big Man like Pau or a Monster Multi Positional Player like Pippen)

[b4ball]

I appreciate the fact that he gave so much of his money to people who are smarter then he is. It might have taken some of the criminal elements of the streets because the've been able to retire.

[Da_Realist]

Loosing % because thats how it was in the 80s, competitive era un like the 90s.

So how much is 50 wins in 1988 worth in the uncompetitive 90's? 60? :eek: Jordan with 2 years experience in the league could have led a 90's team to 60 wins! :oldlol:


Jordan is the creation of Phil, The Triangle Offense (for it to work u need a Creating Big Man like Pau or a Monster Multi Positional Player like Pippen)

:oldlol: Jordan must have put a bug in your panties. I know you were miserable in the 90's! Barkley quitting on the Sixers. Spitting on little girls. Throwing dudes out of windows. Couldn't get it done with the Suns. Losing a 3-1 lead to the Rockets WITH homecourt advantage. Actually put up a whopping 5 points on 0-10 fgs against them one game. Couldn't beat them, so he joined them. They never even made the Finals. And who do you see over and over and over and over and over and over again lifting up the title and Finals MVP? That damn JORDAN :mad: :rant

:roll:

[Leviathon1121]

^

Ouch, :roll:

[Round Mound]

So how much is 50 wins in 1988 worth in the uncompetitive 90's? 60? :eek: Jordan with 2 years experience in the league could have led a 90's team to 60 wins! :oldlol:

1988: Pippen and Grant :cheers:


:oldlol: Jordan must have put a bug in your panties. I know you were miserable in the 90's! Barkley quitting on the Sixers. Spitting on little girls. Throwing dudes out of windows. Couldn't get it done with the Suns.


[B]Barkley did not quit on the Sixers the coach traded him because his team sucked. Period.

[Da_Realist]

^^ :oldlol:

Anyway...back to Pippen.


Scottie Pippen: A Tribute Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fd3AZdmHSIQ)

Focused on his defense in this video and tried to show his versatility.

[Math2]

woulda won w/o jordan if they haddent melted down in the 4th in 200

[DreamsRockets]

as a fan of the rockets, there's nothing for me to appreciate about quitten. he's my most hated rocket ever besides matt maloney and eddie griffin. i did like him as a bull, though and thought he never got enough credit for the numerous attributes he brought to the table.

his leadership was always ignored. him and jordan were polar opposites on that end. jordan was willing to cut your throat, do anything to fire you up and prove him wrong. pippen was more like "cry on my shoulder" type in the sense where he'd maintain chemistry with his teammates and boost their confidence. only time where this didn't happen was that infamous play with kukoc in '94.

i thought of him as a glue guy who kept things together. he'd have a great impact on the game even if he had a terrible shooting night just because of how dominant he was on defense.

[G.O.A.T]

^
As a big Charles Barkley fan, I hated Pippen for his disastrous performance in Houston.

After that I always had this impression of Pippen as a pain in the ass until I read some of Phil's books and started researching for my own.

I always loved his game and used to be one of the guys saying he was more valuable than Jordan when I was younger, but that was because I hated Jordan because he dethroned my Pistons.

A lot of his teammates really seem to adore him. Bill Wennington even called his leadership as or more important than MJ's. (Thanks again Jlip for the heads up) I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt during his Chicago years, but between the Houston debacle, the Portland years and the infamous final play for Kukoc, I think it might be safe to say Pip was a bit of a front runner.

[Vince McMahon]

:applause: :applause: :applause: Scottie Pippen top 10 player of all time.

[The_Yearning]

What about LBJ

He's a better scorer, rebounder and passer than Pippen and he became an elite defender at a younger age?

Kobe has never come close to MJ;s MVP's or scoring titles. He's a poor mans Jordan in that sense.

I'd say Kobe is more comparable to Pippen, have been the sidekick and top perimeter defender for a three-peat Champion, than Michael who won five MVP's to Kobe's one and Six titles as the #1 option to Kobe's two.

Are you an idiot?

[Da_Realist]

Scottie with a courageous effort to help the Bulls win title #6

Scottie Pippen vs Utah 1998 NBA Finals Game 6 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzP8yGB8f94)

[kizut1659]

Great player but overrated. What people overlook is that he actually declined pretty early, already averaging only 39%, 42%, and 41% in the playoffs during the last 3-peat when he was only 30-32.

[Round Mound]

Pippen was the Best SF along Grant Hill in the 90s

[DixieNourmous]

who bumped?


Negged

[Heat007]

Look all great players have a positive impact on one another but this "MJ made Pippen into an all-star" nonsense really has to stop...

He was a top 5 draft pick, Bulls were aware of the skill set he possessed and traded for him. He played PG most of his life before a growth spurt and developed his court vision and ball handling skills then. He averaged 3 spg in college (more than MJ btw), had great team defense instincts as early as his rookie season. Pippen did what all players do, get better as he gained more experience. Phil is the one who helped his game more than anyone by putting him in an offensive system that would suited his strengths - though a more uptempo style might have been even better. MJ definitely made him a better individual defender, increased his bball IQ but other than that, I'm not seeing it. And like I said, I'm not sure he helped Pip's game more than Phil did.

MJ wasn't taking Scottie's jumpers at the gym for him, MJ didn't make him talented enough to be taken top 5 in a draft, MJ didn't give him his unique all-around skill-set that he developed due to his PG background, MJ didn't give him the work ethic which Scottie used to rise from being a team manager at the start of college to being one of the top prospects in the draft after college. I know it's easy to look back through homer-vision and rewrite history but do you really need to MJ to take credit for everything? He made him a better player. Just like Pippen made MJ a better player by giving the ball to him in the right spots, giving him rest by taking a defensive assignment if he was tired or was in foul trouble, by facilitating the team's offense and getting teammates involved so MJ wouldn't have to worry about it.

It's shameful these dudes on here can't even give him credit for becoming the player he became, because once again "it was all MJ". How many other guys did MJ play with over the course of his career? Why didn't he "make them"?


Dominique won 50 that year with about the same level of help. Almost took down the Celtics too. Where's his medal? :oldlol:

great post

[97 bulls]

Great player but overrated. What people overlook is that he actually declined pretty early, already averaging only 39%, 42%, and 41% in the playoffs during the last 3-peat when he was only 30-32.
All you did is looked at his stats on bball reference. Everybody has had bad shooting playoffs. Larry bird shot 42 and 43% at 24 and 25. Which is atrocious given the era.

You obviously don't know what the hell your talking about

[AlphaWolf24]

Originally Posted by Fatal9
Look all great players have a positive impact on one another but this "MJ made Pippen into an all-star" nonsense really has to stop...

He was a top 5 draft pick, Bulls were aware of the skill set he possessed and traded for him. He played PG most of his life before a growth spurt and developed his court vision and ball handling skills then. He averaged 3 spg in college (more than MJ btw), had great team defense instincts as early as his rookie season. Pippen did what all players do, get better as he gained more experience. Phil is the one who helped his game more than anyone by putting him in an offensive system that would suited his strengths - though a more uptempo style might have been even better. MJ definitely made him a better individual defender, increased his bball IQ but other than that, I'm not seeing it. And like I said, I'm not sure he helped Pip's game more than Phil did.

MJ wasn't taking Scottie's jumpers at the gym for him, MJ didn't make him talented enough to be taken top 5 in a draft, MJ didn't give him his unique all-around skill-set that he developed due to his PG background, MJ didn't give him the work ethic which Scottie used to rise from being a team manager at the start of college to being one of the top prospects in the draft after college. I know it's easy to look back through homer-vision and rewrite history but do you really need to MJ to take credit for everything? He made him a better player. Just like Pippen made MJ a better player by giving the ball to him in the right spots, giving him rest by taking a defensive assignment if he was tired or was in foul trouble, by facilitating the team's offense and getting teammates involved so MJ wouldn't have to worry about it.

It's shameful these dudes on here can't even give him credit for becoming the player he became, because once again "it was all MJ". How many other guys did MJ play with over the course of his career? Why didn't he "make them"?


Dominique won 50 that year with about the same level of help. Almost took down the Celtics too. Where's his medal?

this

an absolute beast in 1994...3rd in MVP votes...and led the Bull's to 55 wins with a CBA player replacing Jordan.

Scottie Pippen = top 5 player of the 90's...and one of the greatest of alltime

[kizut1659]

All you did is looked at his stats on bball reference. Everybody has had bad shooting playoffs. Larry bird shot 42 and 43% at 24 and 25. Which is atrocious given the era.

You obviously don't know what the hell your talking about

I did not just look on bbal reference - i personal remember Pippen often playing subpar during the second 3-peat myself. . .bball reference just proved that my recollections are correct. With respect to Bird, that was slightly before his prime and the Celtics LOST in 1982 and 1983. . .the fact that the Bulls won in 1996 through 1998 despite Pippen's poor shooting percentage in my opinion shows how piss poor the league was during those years so that a second best player on a team can shoot so atrociously and yet the team can win 3 championships in a row. . .which in my opinion lowers the credit Pippen should receive from these last 3 championship.

Also, the shooting percentage shows how brief Pippen's prime really was - he was great in the playoffs from 1991-1993 as a perfect second banana, pretty good in 1994 playoffs as the "man" (but only shot 43%) had a weird 1995 series given Jordan's recent comeback, and then (in my opinion) declined in 1996. This is illustrated by his low shooting percentage in the playoffs not only during the last three peat but every year in Houstan and Portland as well (except the 3-game sweep in 2002.) Except for that sweep, Pippen never shot above 42% from 1996 through 2003. You can tell me I just got those numbers from NBA-Reference but ok, aren't those numbers reflective of something? How can one say the fact that Pippen shot 42% or lower in 6 out of 7 his last playoffs and 44% or lower in 8 out of his 9 last playoffs simply does not matter? Either his prime was brief or his chocked in the playoffs.

[kizut1659]

this

an absolute beast in 1994...3rd in MVP votes...and led the Bull's to 55 wins with a CBA player replacing Jordan.

Scottie Pippen = top 5 player of the 90's...and one of the greatest of alltime

He was great in 1993-1994 but went a step down in the playoffs. While he averaged 22.8 ppg, he only shot 43% (and 27%) on threes and only averaged 4.6 assists. The Eastern Conference was wide open in 1994 with Atlanta freaking Hawks having the best record and being upset by Indiana - had Pippen truly stepped up in the playoffs the Bulls should have at least won the East.

[97 bulls]

I did not just look on bbal reference - i personal remember Pippen often playing subpar during the second 3-peat myself. . .bball reference just proved that my recollections are correct. With respect to Bird, that was slightly before his prime and the Celtics LOST in 1982 and 1983. . .the fact that the Bulls won in 1996 through 1998 despite Pippen's poor shooting percentage in my opinion shows how piss poor the league was during those years so that a second best player on a team can shoot so atrociously and yet the team can win 3 championships in a row. . .which in my opinion lowers the credit Pippen should receive from these last 3 championship.

Also, the shooting percentage shows how brief Pippen's prime really was - he was great in the playoffs from 1991-1993 as a perfect second banana, pretty good in 1994 playoffs as the "man" (but only shot 43%) had a weird 1995 series given Jordan's recent comeback, and then (in my opinion) declined in 1996. This is illustrated by his low shooting percentage in the playoffs not only during the last three peat but every year in Houxstan and Portland as well (except the 3-game sweep in 2002.) Except for that sweep, Pippen never shot above 42% from 1996 through 2003. You can tell me I just got those numbers from NBA-Reference but ok, aren't those numbers reflective of something? How can one say the fact that Pippen shot 42% or lower in 6 out of 7 his last playoffs and 44% or lower in 8 out of his 9 last playoffs simply does not matter? Either his prime was brief or his chocked in the playoffs.
Larry bird was 25 and 26. But even still, im sure most all-time greats have had bad playoff performances. And the fact is that you're taking his fg% out of context by not takinng into consideration his age (although you excuse birds bad fg% by aluding to his age even though he was in his prime and I believ a two time mvp go figure) and his back problems. From 98 on he had back problems. He shot bad in 96 but I think that was the era. It was more defensive minded. Hell jordan shot bad too.

And I don't consider a player that was an integral part of 6 championships a choker. You cant legitimately expect him to win every year.

I also notice that you called the league in general "piss poor" as you termed it. The 90s was a defense oriented era. I could call the 80s piss poor cuz the emphasis was on scoring and had a huge drug problem. You had teams puttting up 115 ppg a night and still loose. Its jsut the way the game was played. I could call the 00s piss poor cuz of the lack of dominant big men. I could knock the 70s cuz of the aba splitting the talent and the rampant drug problem.

You're just a biased hater.

[97 bulls]

He was great in 1993-1994 but went a step down in the playoffs. While he averaged 22.8 ppg, he only shot 43% (and 27%) on threes and only averaged 4.6 assists. The Eastern Conference was wide open in 1994 with Atlanta freaking Hawks having the best record and being upset by Indiana - had Pippen truly stepped up in the playoffs the Bulls should have at least won the East.
Lol who do you feel is the best player ever?

[Da_Realist]

I did not just look on bbal reference - i personal remember Pippen often playing subpar during the second 3-peat myself. . .bball reference just proved that my recollections are correct. With respect to Bird, that was slightly before his prime and the Celtics LOST in 1982 and 1983. . .the fact that the Bulls won in 1996 through 1998 despite Pippen's poor shooting percentage in my opinion shows how piss poor the league was during those years so that a second best player on a team can shoot so atrociously and yet the team can win 3 championships in a row. . .which in my opinion lowers the credit Pippen should receive from these last 3 championship.

Also, the shooting percentage shows how brief Pippen's prime really was - he was great in the playoffs from 1991-1993 as a perfect second banana, pretty good in 1994 playoffs as the "man" (but only shot 43%) had a weird 1995 series given Jordan's recent comeback, and then (in my opinion) declined in 1996. This is illustrated by his low shooting percentage in the playoffs not only during the last three peat but every year in Houstan and Portland as well (except the 3-game sweep in 2002.) Except for that sweep, Pippen never shot above 42% from 1996 through 2003. You can tell me I just got those numbers from NBA-Reference but ok, aren't those numbers reflective of something? How can one say the fact that Pippen shot 42% or lower in 6 out of 7 his last playoffs and 44% or lower in 8 out of his 9 last playoffs simply does not matter? Either his prime was brief or his chocked in the playoffs.

He would shoot much better today. The league was much more defensive-oriented and physical. Even this Jazz series that I just posted looked like rugby. And the Jazz were the NICE guys. By the 2nd 3peat, the Bulls were an older, half-court, grind-it-out type of team not too dissimilar to the Pistons in the early 90's. The emphasis was on DEFENSE. That's how the Bulls won, not offensive wizardry. And Pippen was the Bulls best team defender. Check out any Eastern Conference playoff game during this period and tell me if it looks anything like the game being played today. It doesn't.

[Done_And_Done]

Nothing but the utmost of respect & admiration for one of the greatest 2nd options to ever grace the court

[Calabis]

He would shoot much better today. The league was much more defensive-oriented and physical. Even this Jazz series that I just posted looked like rugby. And the Jazz were the NICE guys. By the 2nd 3peat, the Bulls were an older, half-court, grind-it-out type of team not too dissimilar to the Pistons in the early 90's. The emphasis was on DEFENSE. That's how the Bulls won, not offensive wizardry. And Pippen was the Bulls best team defender. Check out any Eastern Conference playoff game during this period and tell me if it looks anything like the game being played today. It doesn't.

I agree 100%, although Jordan was still great at team defense, Pippen was the best individual perimeter defender on that 2nd 3 peat team, Harper and Jordan usually shared difficult matchups by this time

[kizut1659]

Lol who do you feel is the best player ever?

Jordan and its not even that close. If you think I am some Kobe lover who is just trying to denigrate the Bulls its not true . . . .I just think Pippen is overrated (i would probably put him around 30 all time) and had a relatively brief prime.

[Colby Brian]

This is such a retarded thing to say.

A team does not win 6 championships and set a record for wins in a season with just one "superstar." The year after Michael retired the first time, The Bulls went 55-27 and lost in 7 games to the Knicks in the 2nd round.

I didn't see Kobe doing that when Shaq or Pau weren't there, or Wade doing it without Shaq. I didn't see Pierce doing it before KG and Ray Allen were there.

Sometimes - I know this is hard to believe for people who believe everything Nike and Gatorade and ESPN tell them - there can be two or more players of equal importance to a championship team.

The Bulls are arguably the GREATEST DYNASTY in sports history. WTF does sidekick even mean??? Its just a dumb term that you've heard so you repeat it. Try actually thinking some time.

the bulls team was good scottie pippen and dennis rodman, defensive beasts

[97 bulls]

Jordan and its not even that close. If you think I am some Kobe lover who is just trying to denigrate the Bulls its not true . . . .I just think Pippen is overrated (i would probably put him around 30 all time) and had a relatively brief prime.
No.... kobe fans prop pippen to bring down jordan. Jordan fans knock pippen cuz they feel him being considered an all-time great degrades what jordan accomplished. You fall right in line with the latter.

The reason why I asked you that question is cuz you hold pippen to a standard nobody could achieve. Knocking pippens fg% when he was 34-38 is rediculous. Most people do fall of by that age. He was well out of his prime. From 89 to 98, pippen had a solid fg%. And like most unreasonable people you compare pippen based on other people strengths. Pippen was a good scorer, but his claim to fame was his defense and versitilty.

Then you knock him cuz he couldn't get out of the east after loosing jordan in 94. Even alluding to the hawks as if that helps your argument. Like no other high seeded team has ever been upset before. And im sure you being a jordan fan (as am I) don't hold it against jordan for not winning championships his first few years.

I don't see how he's overrated. I've never heard anybody put him in the top 10 based on his accomplishments. I do feel he's in the top 20 25 at the most. And would've accomplished more personally if he had 7-8 years with his own team.

I guess the most frustrating part is when I see people like you hold a player like pippen to a standard that noone can achieve. Noone can win every year in the league, noone can win mvps And its mainly due to your being unreasonable. When 90% of your prime is spent playing alongside a guy the caliber of jordan. Its just not the way the league is set up.

[kizut1659]

No.... kobe fans prop pippen to bring down jordan. Jordan fans knock pippen cuz they feel him being considered an all-time great degrades what jordan accomplished. You fall right in line with the latter.

The reason why I asked you that question is cuz you hold pippen to a standard nobody could achieve. Knocking pippens fg% when he was 34-38 is rediculous. Most people do fall of by that age. He was well out of his prime. From 89 to 98, pippen had a solid fg%. And like most unreasonable people you compare pippen based on other people strengths. Pippen was a good scorer, but his claim to fame was his defense and versitilty.

Then you knock him cuz he couldn't get out of the east after loosing jordan in 94. Even alluding to the hawks as if that helps your argument. Like no other high seeded team has ever been upset before. And im sure you being a jordan fan (as am I) don't hold it against jordan for not winning championships his first few years.

I don't see how he's overrated. I've never heard anybody put him in the top 10 based on his accomplishments. I do feel he's in the top 20 25 at the most. And would've accomplished more personally if he had 7-8 years with his own team.

I guess the most frustrating part is when I see people like you hold a player like pippen to a standard that noone can achieve. Noone can win every year in the league, noone can win mvps And its mainly due to your being unreasonable. When 90% of your prime is spent playing alongside a guy the caliber of jordan. Its just not the way the league is set up.

You are only focusing on select facts. Pippen' had a very low playoff field goal percentage not from ages 34 throgh 38 but from 30 through 37. . .and thats if you would not count percentages of 43 and 44 at age of 28 and 29 as low. Considering he came into the league at the age of 21 and it took him couple of years to develop, it means that his prime was pretty brief. I am not holding Pippen to a standard noone else can achieve - most elite players had longer primes - simple as that.

And yes, we will never truly know if Pippen was good enough to win as the "man" but I personally don't think so. In 1994, Pippen's playoff performance was underwhelming - 43% and 4.6 assists per game for the team's best player who is playing a "point forward" are just not good enough for a team to win a championship. In 1995, the Bulls were a .500 team before Jordan came back. I do not see how 1996-1998 version of Pippen was anywhere good enough to win a championhip as the man given the Iversen-like shooting percentage when you are not even the primary focus of the opposing defense. That leaves us with Pippen from 1990 through 1993. During these years, however, the league was still loaded and I would say Pippen was still not as good as Magic in 1991, Drexler in 1992 or Barkley in 1993 so I am not sure the Bulls would have won had Jordan been replaced with an average or even lets say a Pau Gasol level player.

[Kellogs4toniee]

Jordan and its not even that close. If you think I am some Kobe lover who is just trying to denigrate the Bulls its not true . . . .I just think Pippen is overrated (i would probably put him around 30 all time) and had a relatively brief prime.


See, I can sort of see your angle in explaining how Pippen could never win it all as the main guy. My main gripe is when you say he is over-rated. My question then, is where do you rate Pippen? You say you think he's over-rated, but most people (including huge Bulls and Pippen fans like myself) have him around the 30 range.

I think the biggest problem to me over your whole argument is that I don't think he is over-rated. In fact, honestly I think if we took a poll of the entire population ages 20 and over, he would be under-rated.

[kizut1659]

See, I can sort of see your angle in explaining how Pippen could never win it all as the main guy. My main gripe is when you say he is over-rated. My question then, is where do you rate Pippen? You say you think he's over-rated, but most people (including huge Bulls and Pippen fans like myself) have him around the 30 range.

I think the biggest problem to me over your whole argument is that I don't think he is over-rated. In fact, honestly I think if we took a poll of the entire population ages 20 and over, he would be under-rated.

I have seen many people rank him in top 20 or low 20s. An examples of people on this board overrating him are comparisons of Pippen to Bryant in 2000-2002, which is accurate with respect to 2000 and but not accurate with respect to 2001 and 2002. Also, i remember a topic how Pippen was better than LeBron James.

[Kellogs4toniee]

I have seen many people rank him in top 20 or low 20s. An examples of people on this board overrating him are comparisons of Pippen to Bryant in 2000-2002, which is accurate with respect to 2000 and but not accurate with respect to 2001 and 2002. Also, i remember a topic how Pippen was better than LeBron James.

If your going into a thread about Pippen being better (not career-wise) then Lebron and taking it seriously, then we're done here...

[kizut1659]

If your going into a thread about Pippen being better (not career-wise) then Lebron and taking it seriously, then we're done here...

I obviously did not take it seriously - its just an example of people overrating him and for all i know, the same people might be the ones posting in this thred.

[necya]

there is so much to say about Scottie Pippen...

i hate people calling the 2nd best forward of all time a "2nd option". that's just show how people don't know basketball...

18pts 7/20 FG 8rbd 4ast 1stl 0blk 1to

these are the stats of Scottie Pippen in game 1 of 1996 ECF against Orlando.
it shows how stats are useless when you take the time to watch this game. MJ just had to follow what Pip was doing, no need to force shots.Penny schooled him in one on one, but the weight he had on the game is just amazing.

in my top 15 all time players.
i would take him in my team over all players of today without a doubt.

[97 bulls]

You are only focusing on select facts. Pippen' had a very low playoff field goal percentage not from ages 34 throgh 38 but from 30 through 37. . .and thats if you would not count percentages of 43 and 44 at age of 28 and 29 as low. Considering he came into the league at the age of 21 and it took him couple of years to develop, it means that his prime was pretty brief. I am not holding Pippen to a standard noone else can achieve - most elite players had longer primes - simple as that.

And yes, we will never truly know if Pippen was good enough to win as the "man" but I personally don't think so. In 1994, Pippen's playoff performance was underwhelming - 43% and 4.6 assists per game for the team's best player who is playing a "point forward" are just not good enough for a team to win a championship. In 1995, the Bulls were a .500 team before Jordan came back. I do not see how 1996-1998 version of Pippen was anywhere good enough to win a championhip as the man given the Iversen-like shooting percentage when you are not even the primary focus of the opposing defense. That leaves us with Pippen from 1990 through 1993. During these years, however, the league was still loaded and I would say Pippen was still not as good as Magic in 1991, Drexler in 1992 or Barkley in 1993 so I am not sure the Bulls would have won had Jordan been replaced with an average or even lets say a Pau Gasol level player.
Everybody shot bad in 96. The league was different. More defense oriented. The league avg was about 45%. When you say he shot bad what is your comparison? And I've talked basketball for a long time. And when discussing players, most people don't include a player when he's 34 and older. He's just a shell of his former self. Its like saying 38 year old jordan isn't the greatest ever cuz he didn't play the same as he did in his late 20 and early 30s. Its just an unreasonable assesment.

And again im curious as to how your ranking players. This a comparison in fg% oof scottie pippen and larry bird. I use bird cuz he's the consensus best sf ever.

Pippen in a more defensive minded era shot 47,46,50,50,47,47,43,44,40,42,42,33. That's an over a 12 yr span and comes out to 44% in a league that avg roughly 45%. Larry bird shot 47,47,43,42,52,46,52,48,45,44,41,50 over his 12 yr career which comes out to 46% in a league that avg rooughly 48%. So actually pippen shot better in his era, than bird did in his. Did pippen have some bad shooting years? Off course. But overall, it was just about avg.

Its just funny the way some people like to reason with things. Its like if I went and saw that some scrub shot a high% over the course of like 20 games in an extremly limited career, then try to make an argument that he's a better offensive force than shaq or wilt. Technically going soly off numbers. That's the truth. But we know its just not played out like that. But in a sense, this is what your dong with pippen. As another example, the 96 bulls led the league in scoring that year with an avg of I believe 103 ppg. In the 80s that wouldn't even get them in the top 1/3. Does that mean they can't score? No. It meant the league was different.

Antoher example from the opposite end of the spectrum. The bad boy pistons were one of the greatest defenses of all-time. They gave up 102 ppg in 89 good for 2nd. In 97, that's good for 24th. Does it mean that the 23 team in 97 were better defensively than the bad boys? Hell no. It the difference in the era.

Then again you show your unreasonable and biased side by saying that if you add a guy the caliber of a pau gasol, or better yet a guy like Mitch richmond, who was a solid 24 ppg scorer and a solid defensive player in place of pete myers, who was a scrappy defender and at bests could get you 6ppg. You feel that pippen still couldn't lead that team to championship. That's just crazy. How can you upgrade a postion that much and not feel that the pippen lead bulls coulve (not would've) competed for a championship. Especially when they were not that far off to begin with. Its not like jordan left and the bulls barely hovered around 500. They were one of the best teams in the league still.

I just don't see how what your saying really make sense other than you don't like pippen. Your nitpicking bro. And in a pippen appreciation thread no less. Noone is claiming pippen is a top 10 all-time player or anything. And me being a big pippen fan, I've been most frustrated at the level that pippen is held to. I mean these are the excuse as to why people knock pippen

The. Migran headache (forget the fact that his father had died a few DAYS prior and maybe he just coulndt cope),

He was a leader due to the gun charge (he said he carried it for protection) but jordan was accused of gambling, barkley has been arrested numerous time for fighting, kobe bryant was accused of rape, maggic got his coach fired and contracted hiv which cost his team a legit chance at more championships to name a few

Or he's not clutch , forget the fact that he not jordan lead the bulls back in game 5 of the 91 finals and finished with 31 pts, or how he lead the bulls back in the 4th quarter vs portaln in 92 with the bench in game 6. Or his defense against mark jackson in 98

Or he's soft. But he played in 98 with a bad back in game six and all through 97 after landing on his back making the game winning dunk shot vs washington.
or he couldn't score, thats just dumb

or he couldnt lead a team, we all know about what he did in 94. And forget the fact that he lead his 95 bulls in every big statistical category. And he was co-leader in 96-98 championship bulls

or jordan made him, again just dumb. Evey player has been tutored by somebody. And id hope that all players help each other out in praactice.

or he never won as the man, even though he only had 1 year to do it. Everybody else has had at least 7 jordan, shaq, bird, johnson, bryant. And at times failed miserbly.

or he didn't win in portland when he was friggn 35 to 37 yrs old. And had back and knee problems

And now his fg% which when in reality is right on par with the league he played in.

Its all just propaganda to degrade pip.

[KB2clutch]

hes an excellent player no doubt, but i laugh when ppl compare him to lebron. I know you're suppose to show respect to retired players but come on lebrons on another level compared to him

[97 bulls]

hes an excellent player no doubt, but i laugh when ppl compare him to lebron. I know you're suppose to show respect to retired players but come on lebrons on another level compared to him
Noone is sayying he's better than lebron james. I think he fit in better, or is more versitle than james. The fact is that james is an amazing athlete that plays basketball. I think pippen is more skilled. But lebrons more athletic. Pippen is very comparable to james.

[Alhazred]

He would shoot much better today. The league was much more defensive-oriented and physical. Even this Jazz series that I just posted looked like rugby. And the Jazz were the NICE guys. By the 2nd 3peat, the Bulls were an older, half-court, grind-it-out type of team not too dissimilar to the Pistons in the early 90's. The emphasis was on DEFENSE. That's how the Bulls won, not offensive wizardry. And Pippen was the Bulls best team defender. Check out any Eastern Conference playoff game during this period and tell me if it looks anything like the game being played today. It doesn't.

I'd like to add that Scottie was also injured frequently for the second three-peat, especially in '98. I remember Roundball mentioning that he had incurred his injuries right before the playoffs in '96 and '97(I think?). When Scottie was healthy and at his peak(91-94), he was hardly a weak scorer.

[Jimmy2k8]

Where's the love for Pippen? I thought this was an appreciation thread for Scottie, not argue about how "Oh, Pippen was a sidekick. Jordan=Goat".

[Lebron23]

Greatly Appreciated.

[Roundball_Rock]

Greatly Appreciated.

:cheers:

[Bronbron23]

Pip was definitely as important as mj in most of their chips. The only one id say he wasnt as important was in 98 when his back was hurt. Still important though. I dont understand mj stans that disrespect pip.

[97 bulls]

Where's the love for Pippen? I thought this was an appreciation thread for Scottie, not argue about how "Oh, Pippen was a sidekick. Jordan=Goat".

Insidehoops.com is a hub for Scottie Pippen haters. A bunch of inconsistent double talking emotional Jordan zealots. We got to see this over the last few days.

Make a mental note guys. On Insidehoops.com, Scottie Pippen is a glorified Jeff Green, a tall Mo William's, or at best a poor man Andre Iguodala or Brandon William's.

Amongst the rest of the world? One of the greatest to ever play and routinely ranked as a top 30 player.

[Roundball_Rock]

Insidehoops.com is a hub for Scottie Pippen haters. A bunch of inconsistent double talking emotional Jordan zealots. We got to see this over the last few days.

Make a mental note guys. On Insidehoops.com, Scottie Pippen is a glorified Jeff Green, a tall Mo William's, or at best a poor man Andre Iguodala or Brandon William's.

Amongst the rest of the world? One of the greatest to ever play and routinely ranked as a top 30 player.

:applause:

[Whoah10115]

Bumping a 9 year old thread and not even talking about Scottie Pippen.

Sad proof of his being under-appreciated is that this somehow amounts to his defense.

[Axe]

The bulls wouldn't be a dynasty at all during the 90s if a key piece in pippen was missing.

[DoctorP]

kick ass last night in game 1 of the 97 finals with a bad foot. good d and shooting. he had a better three than jordan