Amare Finally Exposed

[Rekindled]

he is just a product of steve nash, i would trade him for elton brand right now, but i doubt philly would accpet.

[Yung D-Will]

Is he still pretending to be a franchise player?

[DaBigReality]

He's doing...alright. But the fact that he's getting paid $100 million for alright ain't alright.

[ihatetimthomas]

I'm not sure what you mean about finally. I think its been pretty obvious this guy is not a franchise player. Even with Nash, all he was was a potent scorer. Never was a great defender, rebounder or leader. Now he has been paid 100 million and the Knicks once again are going to have to hold on to an atrocious contract. In year 3 of his deal, he will be making over 20 million. He is going to be one of the worst contracts int he league in a few seasons. Better hope they strike gold and get a guy like Melo.

[Quata]

Meanwhile steve is dropping 23pts (11-13fg) 9asts, 6rebs at the end of the 3rd. Funniest part is he is 1-3ft, very strange.

[Scoooter]

Melo doesn't really make them any better (although he'd still be nice to have). What they need is a good point guard. Someone with court vision.

[Sarcastic]

The problem with the Knicks goes way beyond Amar'e Stoudemire.

[Sand1]

who from the knicks wouldn't you trade?

[LastChanceToWin]

I would give up the entire roster for Melo

[Rekindled]

amare for blake griffin+ baron davis

[Rowe]

he is just a product of steve nash, i would trade him for elton brand right now, but i doubt philly would accpet.

You're a Knick fan? :rolleyes:

[Sand1]

I would give up the entire roster for Melo


agreed

I like turiaf energy

[J-Futuristic]

amare for blake griffin+ baron davis
:roll: :roll: :roll:
Thats a good one

[LA_Showtime]

Watching this game was like watching two top high school teams play with one dominant center (Kevin Love). He manhandled Amare. It was fun to see.

[Rowe]

The problem with the Knicks goes way beyond Amar'e Stoudemire.

Exactly.

Its still a problem with our defense. D'Antoni needs to figure out what type of team we're going to be with our personnel. A team that plays defense in order to get back on offense or a team that actually has a defensive gameplan.

We cant win a title trying to outscore everybody each game. We've got to have some sort of plan to defend. Maybe do zone defense? :confusedshrug:

[Walker]

Scapegoats are awsome :facepalm

[Rowe]

I'm not sure what you mean about finally. I think its been pretty obvious this guy is not a franchise player. Even with Nash, all he was was a potent scorer. Never was a great defender, rebounder or leader. Now he has been paid 100 million and the Knicks once again are going to have to hold on to an atrocious contract. In year 3 of his deal, he will be making over 20 million. He is going to be one of the worst contracts int he league in a few seasons. Better hope they strike gold and get a guy like Melo.

What?

Obviously Amare is a #2 option, but hes still been a Top 5 PF in the NBA over the last 5 years. I'd have him at #5 behind only Duncan, KG, Dirk, & Pau. Hes been consistently productive when hes healthy. Hes always been known as a scorer. Hes a scoring Power Forward. He spent basically the entire game at Center. He cant get to the line as much nor can he defend guys hes facing when he doesn't have a matchup in his advantage. We have a glaring weakness in which we need an actual C. Turiaf's injury problems make him unreliable.

I dont see how Amare will be viewed as a bad contract unless he gets injured. He has a versatile offensive game and will still be productive around the basket, just as long as he has someone who can set him up. Is he overpaid? Yes. Does he make us look like we're trying to compete and helps attract marquee Free Agents? Yes.

Amare's problem this season is due to him trying to do too much. Hes trying to play like prime KG or Bosh on offense. Calling for isos and facing up every other play works for some guys at the 4, but Amare isn't one of them. He has a decent mid range game, doesn't have a good handle for his size, and isn't a good passer. What Amare needs to be doing more is playing in the low post. Without the Pick & Rolls he was getting so much with Nash, he is playing like he did when he was with Marbury. Looking at his numbers they are consistent with what he was doing early in his career.

We need to get some consistency out of Gallo. He'll help Amare more if he can knock down the shots we've expected him to. Randolph also needs to get healthy so we can see if he can emerge into a defensive presence.

[Rowe]

Scapegoats are awsome :facepalm

How can Amare be the scapegoat? This is the 3rd consecutive year where defense has not been made a priority.

Blame the fact that this Franchise has been in the dumps for 10 years, and this is the first season where we actually have a future.

[Sarcastic]

Newsflash: Basketball is a team game. No player in the history of basketball has ever single handedly won nor lost a game by himself.

Amar'e is a great number 1 option, however the rest of his team is playing like absolute shit. He was in foul trouble for a good portion of tonight's game. It's not just his fault that Kevin Love grabbed so many rebounds, and Beasley scored 35.

[lilWesleyJ4]

Love made Amar'e his ***** tonight:rockon: :cheers:

[Kblaze8855]

Operating under the assumption that the 8-9 games played actually matters...

Amare came in at 21/8 in 34 minutes. Lowest shooting since 04. 5 turnovers a game. Pretty similar to the last few years but the worse shooting and high turnovers likely due to so few games. Nash at 18/9 on his worst shooting since 04 and 5 turnovers a game as well. Knicks are like 9th. Suns 11th. Amare misses like....1 shot a game more than he did in Phoenix.

Nash is off by as much as or more than Amare and his team isnt doing anything and he himself said that he doesnt know if he sees them as a playoff team.

There is nothing much positive to say about either right now. Nash having a good night. Amare has had a few.

Amare isnt being exposed as anything people have not said he was for years.

Hes not shooting well but this early...one game does that. Hes shot 60, 54, 44, 55, 47, 47, and 44 in all the games aside from the 5-21 that drags him down.

By the end of the year he will produce pretty much exactly the same as he has for years. Wont win as much...but the Suns arent doing shit either and best case...they get to and lose in the playoffs.

Neither Nash or amare are doing anything of note.

Kevin Love going off proves no more than Nash getting worked on defense by most any good player hes had to guard in the last 10 years.

Neither of them are special for anything done without the ball in their hands.

[Rowe]

Newsflash: Basketball is a team game. No player in the history of basketball has ever single handedly won nor lost a game by himself.

Amar'e is a great number 1 option, however the rest of his team is playing like absolute shit. He was in foul trouble for a good portion of tonight's game. It's not just his fault that Kevin Love grabbed so many rebounds, and Beasley scored 35.
:applause:

Amare isn't excused either. I am tired of watching him try to imitate Minny KG. That isn't his game. Dude could carry us on his back if he stopped that nonsense. No reason he should be leading the league in turnovers.

I'd rather see Randolph do that.

[Rowe]

Operating under the assumption that the 8-9 games played actually matters...

Amare came in at 21/8 in 34 minutes. Lowest shooting since 04. 5 turnovers a game. Pretty similar to the last few years but the worse shooting and high turnovers likely due to so few games. Nash at 18/9 on his worst shooting since 04 and 5 turnovers a game as well. Knicks are like 9th. Suns 11th. Amare misses like....1 shot a game more than he did in Phoenix.

Nash is off by as much as or more than Amare and his team isnt doing anything and he himself said that he doesnt know if he sees them as a playoff team.

There is nothing much positive to say about either right now. Nash having a good night. Amare has had a few.

Amare isnt being exposed as anything people have not said he was for years.

Hes not shooting well but this early...one game does that. Hes shot 60, 54, 44, 55, 47, 47, and 44 in all the games aside from the 5-21 that drags him down.

By the end of the year he will produce pretty much exactly the same as he has for years. Wont win as much...but the Suns arent doing shit either and best case...they get to and lose in the playoffs.

Neither Nash or amare are doing anything of note.

Kevin Love going off proves no more than Nash getting worked on defense by most any good player hes had to guard in the last 10 years.

Neither of them are special for anything done without the ball in their hands.

Good analysis.:applause:

With all that being said, when Nash/Amare were together they complimented each other to the point they carried Phoenix to the WCF against LA, and multiple times with 50+ win seasons.

December can't get here soon enough. Time to get Nash, introduce the pick & roll as our primary offensive gameplan, and let them re-create what they did in Phoenix with Amare & our talented wing players.

[Walker]

How can Amare be the scapegoat? This is the 3rd consecutive year where defense has not been made a priority.

Blame the fact that this Franchise has been in the dumps for 10 years, and this is the first season where we actually have a future.
Wow, just......... wow.

Yeah dude, that was my point.
You know, some people here are blaming STAT, hence the :facepalm



:facepalm

[Rowe]

Wow, just......... wow.

Yeah dude, that was my point.
You know, some people here are blaming STAT, hence the :facepalm



:facepalm

I know.

Just as long as STAT doesn't get FAT. I have no beef with him.

























http://sportschump.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/eddy-curry1.jpeg

:rant

[tpols]

It's really not even amare's fault though. The knicks just flat out suck. They have no one to run the pick and roll with him and the only times he gets the ball is when his teammates throw it to him and tell him to go 1 on 4. I swear his teammates don't cut to the basket, they don't do shit. They just watch and run back on defense (if you could call it that) amazed that he couldn't score when he was converged on by three different guys. Amare should've seen this coming. Just a terrible system and team. I actually was rooting for the knicks to beat minny in the end because I felt so bad for them.

[hitmanyr2k]

Operating under the assumption that the 8-9 games played actually matters...

Amare came in at 21/8 in 34 minutes. Lowest shooting since 04. 5 turnovers a game. Pretty similar to the last few years but the worse shooting and high turnovers likely due to so few games. Nash at 18/9 on his worst shooting since 04 and 5 turnovers a game as well. Knicks are like 9th. Suns 11th. Amare misses like....1 shot a game more than he did in Phoenix.

Nash is off by as much as or more than Amare and his team isnt doing anything and he himself said that he doesnt know if he sees them as a playoff team.

There is nothing much positive to say about either right now. Nash having a good night. Amare has had a few.

Amare isnt being exposed as anything people have not said he was for years.

Hes not shooting well but this early...one game does that. Hes shot 60, 54, 44, 55, 47, 47, and 44 in all the games aside from the 5-21 that drags him down.

By the end of the year he will produce pretty much exactly the same as he has for years. Wont win as much...but the Suns arent doing shit either and best case...they get to and lose in the playoffs.

Neither Nash or amare are doing anything of note.

Kevin Love going off proves no more than Nash getting worked on defense by most any good player hes had to guard in the last 10 years.

Neither of them are special for anything done without the ball in their hands.


Nice analysis and all but why are we comparing a 36 year old to a 28 year old? This isn't the same Nash from 2006. It's about time for him to start slowing down and dropping a bit. Amare is in his prime.

[Rowe]

It's really not even amare's fault though. The knicks just flat out suck. They have no one to run the pick and roll with him and the only times he gets the ball is when his teammates throw it to him and tell him to go 1 on 4. I swear his teammates don't cut to the basket, they don't do shit. They just watch and run back on defense (if you could call it that) amazed that he couldn't score when he was converged on by three different guys. Amare should've seen this coming. Just a terrible system and team. I actually was rooting for the knicks to beat minny in the end because I felt so bad for them.

That is because Amare has established himself as a team leader. They respect him enough that they'll keep giving him the ball to iso and attack. Which is why it has to be Amare's decision to stop doing it because it is 50/50 a waste of a possession. And a team that plays so little defense, we cant be wasting possessions. As evidence with tonight.


Not to mention very player in our rotation was in High School or Middle School when Amare won ROTY. Guys like Gallo, Chandler, Randolph, Fields, Douglas, & Walker were still in High School when Amare was winning 60 games with Nash/Marion. So the respect/fan factor is there, you can tell with how the young guys talk about him.

[stridge]

Operating under the assumption that the 8-9 games played actually matters...

Amare came in at 21/8 in 34 minutes. Lowest shooting since 04. 5 turnovers a game. Pretty similar to the last few years but the worse shooting and high turnovers likely due to so few games. Nash at 18/9 on his worst shooting since 04 and 5 turnovers a game as well. Knicks are like 9th. Suns 11th. Amare misses like....1 shot a game more than he did in Phoenix.

Nash is off by as much as or more than Amare and his team isnt doing anything and he himself said that he doesnt know if he sees them as a playoff team.

There is nothing much positive to say about either right now. Nash having a good night. Amare has had a few.

Amare isnt being exposed as anything people have not said he was for years.

Hes not shooting well but this early...one game does that. Hes shot 60, 54, 44, 55, 47, 47, and 44 in all the games aside from the 5-21 that drags him down.

By the end of the year he will produce pretty much exactly the same as he has for years. Wont win as much...but the Suns arent doing shit either and best case...they get to and lose in the playoffs.

Neither Nash or amare are doing anything of note.

Kevin Love going off proves no more than Nash getting worked on defense by most any good player hes had to guard in the last 10 years.

Neither of them are special for anything done without the ball in their hands.

2006??
MVP without Amare??

:facepalm

[joe]

Operating under the assumption that the 8-9 games played actually matters...

Amare came in at 21/8 in 34 minutes. Lowest shooting since 04. 5 turnovers a game. Pretty similar to the last few years but the worse shooting and high turnovers likely due to so few games. Nash at 18/9 on his worst shooting since 04 and 5 turnovers a game as well. Knicks are like 9th. Suns 11th. Amare misses like....1 shot a game more than he did in Phoenix.

Nash is off by as much as or more than Amare and his team isnt doing anything and he himself said that he doesnt know if he sees them as a playoff team.

There is nothing much positive to say about either right now. Nash having a good night. Amare has had a few.

Amare isnt being exposed as anything people have not said he was for years.

Hes not shooting well but this early...one game does that. Hes shot 60, 54, 44, 55, 47, 47, and 44 in all the games aside from the 5-21 that drags him down.

By the end of the year he will produce pretty much exactly the same as he has for years. Wont win as much...but the Suns arent doing shit either and best case...they get to and lose in the playoffs.

Neither Nash or amare are doing anything of note.

Kevin Love going off proves no more than Nash getting worked on defense by most any good player hes had to guard in the last 10 years.

Neither of them are special for anything done without the ball in their hands.

Kblaze, I love your basketball thoughts but a few things are off on this post amigo..

1- Nash never said he isn't sure the Suns are a playoff team. He said he can understand why outsiders might feel that way. He personally thinks if they work hard and get better everyday the team can be right there at the end of things with L.A.

2- I can't speak for how Amare has played but Nash's struggles don't look like they're going to last. He was integrating the new players early on, and said "the turnovers are necessary." A lot of times, the new guys would cut at the wrong time, or roll to the wrong spot.. But instead of throwing them the ball in a poor position, he'd throw it where he felt they needed to be, causing a turnover, but helping them see the floor how he sees it. Since the early struggles he's been going for double digit assists each time out, with like 28 and 14 tonight.

3- Do you really think Nash is going to miss Amare as much as Amare is going to miss Nash?

4- Suns aren't doing sh*t so far but we'll see what happens through the course of the year. Hopefully at the end of it you'll be saying "Suns DID sh*t" :-)

[Faberg]

:oldlol: Amare doesn't play defense how is he finally getting exposed? This is a known fact.

[Kblaze8855]

2006??
MVP without Amare??

You mean when he won MVP with everyone attaching the "We know hes not the best player but...." disclaimer in a season his team won the least games of an MVP in 2 decades and his playoff success was beating 2 teams that won I think 45 and 46 games?

An even somewhat MVP level point who still has a 22/12 #2, the MIP who put up back to back triple doubles when Nash was out, an all D teamer hwo also gave 15ppg, a 6th man of the year level player and like 6 total good shooters should be able to win 54 games. I remember saying that year they would still be good. I think I predicted 5th seed which was off....but the number of wins they got would have been 4th seed the next year and the previous one. Would have been tied for 7th in 08.

Lets not pretend the Suns really dominated or anything in 06. They had pretty much the same level of season the Jazz had in 07 and 08.

Sorry. Not blown away that a 4-5 time all nba guard can win 54 games with a team as good as he had. Ray Allen won like 52-53 around then with less to work with.

NAsh was a "See! they are still good without Amare!" mvp. Not a "This guy is owning the league" MVP. You win MVP while nobody on earth considers you the best player its kinda....meh.

And nobody ever considered him on that level. Its hard to say he was even top 5 in 06 with Duncan, Kobe, Lebron, KG, Wade, and Dirk all operating on a high level. KG was still MVP good. Defense considered id have to put him over Nash. Wade powered his team to a ring. Kobe/Lebron were already themselves. Duncan had just won a ring and bullied the suns out of the playoffs a couple times. Dirk was a beast. Nash slaughtered them in 05 but by 06 he had taken it to them. 50 point games and all.

Nash even an elite player in 06?

You kinda gotta stretch "elite" out to say so dont you?

[tpols]

You mean when he won MVP with everyone attaching the "We know hes not the best player but...." disclaimer in a season his team won the least games of an MVP in 2 decades and his playoff success was beating 2 teams that won I think 45 and 46 games?

An even somewhat MVP level point who still has a 22/12 #2, the MIP who put up back to back triple doubles when Nash was out, an all D teamer hwo also gave 15ppg, a 6th man of the year level player and like 6 total good shooters should be able to win 54 games. I remember saying that year they would still be good. I think I predicted 5th seed which was off....but the number of wins they got would have been 4th seed the next year and the previous one. Would have been tied for 7th in 08.

Lets not pretend the Suns really dominated or anything in 06. They had pretty much the same level of season the Jazz had in 07 and 08.

Sorry. Not blown away that a 4-5 time all nba guard can win 54 games with a team as good as he had. Ray Allen won like 52-53 around then with less to work with.

NAsh was a "See! they are still good without Amare!" mvp. Not a "This guy is owning the league" MVP. You win MVP while nobody on earth considers you the best player its kinda....meh.

And nobody ever considered him on that level. Its hard to say he was even top 5 in 06 with Duncan, Kobe, Lebron, KG, Wade, and Dirk all operating on a high level. KG was still MVP good. Defense considered id have to put him over Nash. Wade powered his team to a ring. Kobe/Lebron were already themselves. Duncan had just won a ring and bullied the suns out of the playoffs a couple times. Dirk was a beast. Nash slaughtered them in 05 but by 06 he had taken it to them. 50 point games and all.

Nash even an elite player in 06?

You kinda gotta stretch "elite" out to say so dont you?
I'm sorry you're just dead wrong. Nash made that suns team and had as big an impact on their success as any of the guys you listed~duncan, kobe lebron, any of them. Steve nash's play was as impactful to the sun's success as any of them regardless of if you think he wasn't as good.

[Hulk Hogan]

:facepalm

[sayitaintso]

I remember when Nash was injured 2004-2005...they still had Joe Johnson, Amare Stoudemire, Shawn Marion, Q-Rich, etc. and they managed to 0-6 during the stretch Nash DNP.

[Kblaze8855]

I'm sorry you're just dead wrong. Nash made that suns team and had as big an impact on their success as any of the guys you listed~duncan, kobe lebron, any of them. Steve nash's play was as impactful to the sun's success as any of them regardless of if you think he wasn't as good.

And Ray Allen had just as much to do with his team winning whatever it was(I wann say 53) and all he had was Rashard(worse than Marion id say), ridnour, and role players worse than the suns. Doesnt mean Ray Allen is an elite player.

A guy can be totally key to his team...especially someone who runs a very point dependant system...and not be elite.

He just isnt and wasnt Kobe good. Or prime KG good. Or Duncan. Or Lebron. Or Wade. If only for being able to play defense hes never been as good all around as them.

Hes just totally key to his offense. But guys like Nash make you play basketball that just doesnt win when it matters.

And its not like we have winning on Nashs side against those guys. Every single one of them have won as much as or more than him. Only 2 of those I mentioned dont have rings and both of them straight up individually powered their teams to the finals.

Nash is the least accomplished MVP of all time with the exception of Mcadoo who got hurt.

Not like its my opinion either.

Nash has done virtually nothing of note in the playoffs. Hes led his teams as far as Carlos Boozer, Ray Allen, Sheed, Melo, Jermaine Oneal, and countless others. Hes won 2 MVPs...one of them o na team with 2 other all NBA guys and a guy who has led 2-3 50 wins teams on his own since. And the other on the worst record having MVP team in over 2 decades...a team that proved itself in the playoffs...by beating 2 middle of the road teams. The Lakers who some are calling the least talented supporting cast ever(and they barely beat them)and 46 or 47 win clippers who I think also took them to 7.

Im not going to act like that is terribly impressive by the standards of the people we are discussing.

Its impressive by the standards of like...a regular all star point. Its not outstanding by the standards of Kobe, Lebron, Duncan, dirk, Wade, and KG. They win 54 games with another all star and several good role players....they are called chokers for losing when the games start to matter.

nash gets propped up for it. Because he isnt elite. Its special when he does such things I guess.

Lebron has Nashs 2006 season and hes getting hated on for it.

Its outstanding for Nash.

Its not outstanding for a usual MVP level player. Its...passable for them. Barely passable. Kobe or Lebron would get serious hate for it.....because the yare better than Nash.

Expectations rise with your greatness. Nash isnt all that great. Which is why 54 wins with a good team and nothing of note in the playoffs is considered mpressive for him. For Lebron people are asking what went wrong. And thats if he does it with a team of role players none of which are as good as Marion was at the time. Which he has....

Bigboy rankings come with bigboy standards. Nash doesnt really have the resume of the elite players. He just doesnt.

He has not done what they have...and hes had as much as or more to work with than virtually any of them.

Let Kobe take Amare, Marion in his prime, Joe Johnson, Barbosa, Jackson, and so on to anything short of a ring...he would never hear the end of it.

Id say that massive difference in expectations is a pretty clear indicator of who is and isnt elite.

[D.J.]

Whoever said Amare is a product of Nash couldn't have been more wrong. His efficiency was because of Nash, yes. He was still putting up 20/9 before Nash arrived. You can also make an argument that Nash is a product of Amare. Until Nash started playing with Amare, Marion, and a bunch of perimeter players, he averaged 8 APG only once. While a good portion of Amare's success was because of Nash, an equally good portion of Nash's success was because of Amare.

[joe]

lol Nash not an elite player in 06? 18.8 points a game on 50% shooting, 43.9% from 3, along with 10 and a half assists per game with only 3 and a half turnovers. Leads his team to conference finals without their second best player. Yeah doesn't sound elite to me. The west wasn't as good back then, no doubt about it. But you beat who's in front of you. It's not like the Mavs embarassed them either.. it went to 6 and Raja Bell missed a couple games. Kurt Thomas didn't play either. I'm not sure why, but all I see are "DNP - Coaches Decisions" looking back at the box score. The Suns were running 7 deep and starting Boris Diaw at center.

It's alright if you don't think he was MVP but come on.. he was def. elite. You don't have to stretch the word at all to say that. IMO

[Darius]

Operating under the assumption that the 8-9 games played actually matters...

Amare came in at 21/8 in 34 minutes. Lowest shooting since 04. 5 turnovers a game. Pretty similar to the last few years but the worse shooting and high turnovers likely due to so few games. Nash at 18/9 on his worst shooting since 04 and 5 turnovers a game as well. Knicks are like 9th. Suns 11th. Amare misses like....1 shot a game more than he did in Phoenix.

Nash is off by as much as or more than Amare and his team isnt doing anything and he himself said that he doesnt know if he sees them as a playoff team.

There is nothing much positive to say about either right now. Nash having a good night. Amare has had a few.

Amare isnt being exposed as anything people have not said he was for years.

Hes not shooting well but this early...one game does that. Hes shot 60, 54, 44, 55, 47, 47, and 44 in all the games aside from the 5-21 that drags him down.

By the end of the year he will produce pretty much exactly the same as he has for years. Wont win as much...but the Suns arent doing shit either and best case...they get to and lose in the playoffs.

Neither Nash or amare are doing anything of note.

Kevin Love going off proves no more than Nash getting worked on defense by most any good player hes had to guard in the last 10 years.

Neither of them are special for anything done without the ball in their hands.

lol Nash is 36 now and Amare is supposed to be in his prime.

You can't make that comparison at this point in their careers.

Anything Nash does at 36 is gravy.

Amare is being paid $100m to be a franchise player right now.

[Kblaze8855]

He wasnt Kobe good. He wasnt Lebron good. He wasnt Duncan good. He wasnt Wade good. And that is leaving out some people like KG and Dirk who overall...he was probably inferior to as well..


If there is a clear level of players you arent on...how are you elite?

If second tier players are elite....what the the players better than them? Super duper elite?

Kobe in 06 was scoring his ass off and playing D nash never could. Wade was taking a team no more talented than those Nash has have to a ring. Lebron was putting up like 31/7/7 taking Z and Larry ****ing Hughes to 50 wins.

NAsh was not as good as those 3...at the least.

If hes not as good as the best....how is he elite?

What is elite...if not the best?

If he isnt arguably the best...hes not elite.

And I dont think there is one bit of an argument that Nash was a better player than Kobe in 2006. And Kobe wasnt even a lock to be the best player either. But he was in the discussion.

Nash was not. Kobe was at or near his peak..and hes gonna go down as top 10 all time.

Nash was not Kobe good. There being a level he is clearly below...hes not elite.

Whats the problem?

[joe]

And Ray Allen had just as much to do with his team winning whatever it was(I wann say 53) and all he had was Rashard(worse than Marion id say), ridnour, and role players worse than the suns. Doesnt mean Ray Allen is an elite player.

A guy can be totally key to his team...especially someone who runs a very point dependant system...and not be elite.

He just isnt and wasnt Kobe good. Or prime KG good. Or Duncan. Or Lebron. Or Wade. If only for being able to play defense hes never been as good all around as them.

Hes just totally key to his offense. But guys like Nash make you play basketball that just doesnt win when it matters.

And its not like we have winning on Nashs side against those guys. Every single one of them have won as much as or more than him. Only 2 of those I mentioned dont have rings and both of them straight up individually powered their teams to the finals.

Nash is the least accomplished MVP of all time with the exception of Mcadoo who got hurt.

Not like its my opinion either.

Nash has done virtually nothing of note in the playoffs. Hes led his teams as far as Carlos Boozer, Ray Allen, Sheed, Melo, Jermaine Oneal, and countless others. Hes won 2 MVPs...one of them o na team with 2 other all NBA guys and a guy who has led 2-3 50 wins teams on his own since. And the other on the worst record having MVP team in over 2 decades...a team that proved itself in the playoffs...by beating 2 middle of the road teams. The Lakers who some are calling the least talented supporting cast ever(and they barely beat them)and 46 or 47 win clippers who I think also took them to 7.

Im not going to act like that is terribly impressive by the standards of the people we are discussing.

Its impressive by the standards of like...a regular all star point. Its not outstanding by the standards of Kobe, Lebron, Duncan, dirk, Wade, and KG. They win 54 games with another all star and several good role players....they are called chokers for losing when the games start to matter.

nash gets propped up for it. Because he isnt elite. Its special when he does such things I guess.

Lebron has Nashs 2006 season and hes getting hated on for it.

Its outstanding for Nash.

Its not outstanding for a usual MVP level player. Its...passable for them. Barely passable. Kobe or Lebron would get serious hate for it.....because the yare better than Nash.

Expectations rise with your greatness. Nash isnt all that great. Which is why 54 wins with a good team and nothing of note in the playoffs is considered mpressive for him. For Lebron people are asking what went wrong. And thats if he does it with a team of role players none of which are as good as Marion was at the time. Which he has....

Bigboy rankings come with bigboy standards. Nash doesnt really have the resume of the elite players. He just doesnt.

He has not done what they have...and hes had as much as or more to work with than virtually any of them.

Let Kobe take Amare, Marion in his prime, Joe Johnson, Barbosa, Jackson, and so on to anything short of a ring...he would never hear the end of it.

Id say that massive difference in expectations is a pretty clear indicator of who is and isnt elite.


Yeah Kobe's had pretty terrible supporting casts alright. Gasol, Odom, Bynum, Artest.... prime Shaq.

Lebron has big boy expectations, why, because he made it to the finals in the 2007 east? you talk about Nash not playing anyone. Nash would be a 4 time finalist if his team was in the east those years man.

Ray Allen led his teams further than Nash? He went to the conference finals once as the best player on his team. To get there he beat the 2001 Hornets.. with old Mashburn, young Baron, and not much else. And that series went to 7 games.

Why do you give Dirk so much props and not Nash? Nash has had way more success than Dirk since they've split up, you're just weighting his one finals appearance x1000. They've split playoff series against each other, but when the Suns lost it was without Amare. Suns went to the conference finals 3 times, Mavs once. Mavs also got dominated by an 8th seed in the same year the Suns were clearly the 2nd best team in the league. They lost to prime Tim Duncan's Spurs in a very tight series. Spurs breezed through everyone else that year.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

If I had to lead a team of scrubs to the NBA finals, I'd take an 80 year old Steve Nash in a wheel chair over Amar'e.

[Kblaze8855]

lol Nash is 35 now and Amare is supposed to be in his prime.

You can't make that comparison at this point in their careers.

Anything Nash does at 35 is gravy.

Amare is being paid $100m to be a franchise player right now.

Like I care how old Nash is. Nash is pretty much the same player hes been for years. How good he looks is a matter of what he has to work with. Hes not some speedster who had to adjust his game as he slows down a lot. Also...im amused by much of this "You dont get better in your 30s" talk.

When I said "You dont just magically learn to be great at 30" when he was getting MVP talk in 05 after not even being an all star in 04 people told me it wasnt the situation he was in(team full of finishers and shooters who allow him to make most plays and make it impossible to double any of them)...it was that he got better.

But now time is a factor?

Drop 06 Nash on the 04 Mavs you get 04 Mavs results. Drop 04 Nash on the 06 Suns you get 06 suns results. Dude has been the same player for damn near 10 years rising and falling with the tools he has to work with and how hes asked to use them.

But now...time is taking a hold. At 33 he was better than at 27. But now I cant discuss how good he is because hes getting old? He looked better last year at 35 than he did the year before that.

Its not as simple as how old he is. If hes healthy...in good shape? Hes just Nash to me. When he isnt...he isnt. Last I watchedh im...he was still Nash.

It goes fast when it goes(Payton...). Itsn ot gone for him. Hes still balling at a high rate.

[JtotheIzzo]

Operating under the assumption that the 8-9 games played actually matters...

Amare came in at 21/8 in 34 minutes. Lowest shooting since 04. 5 turnovers a game. Pretty similar to the last few years but the worse shooting and high turnovers likely due to so few games. Nash at 18/9 on his worst shooting since 04 and 5 turnovers a game as well. Knicks are like 9th. Suns 11th. Amare misses like....1 shot a game more than he did in Phoenix.

Nash is off by as much as or more than Amare and his team isnt doing anything and he himself said that he doesnt know if he sees them as a playoff team.

There is nothing much positive to say about either right now. Nash having a good night. Amare has had a few.

Amare isnt being exposed as anything people have not said he was for years.

Hes not shooting well but this early...one game does that. Hes shot 60, 54, 44, 55, 47, 47, and 44 in all the games aside from the 5-21 that drags him down.

By the end of the year he will produce pretty much exactly the same as he has for years. Wont win as much...but the Suns arent doing shit either and best case...they get to and lose in the playoffs.

Neither Nash or amare are doing anything of note.

Kevin Love going off proves no more than Nash getting worked on defense by most any good player hes had to guard in the last 10 years.

Neither of them are special for anything done without the ball in their hands.

back with the Nash hate.

classic.

I love how you flipped this thread.

Amare signed a huge contract, spent the whole summer bigging himself up in NY, Nash is once again working a whole bunch of new faces into his team.

Comparing their situations is hardly equitable.

Why is it you work your disdain for Nash into every thread you possibly can?

[HorryIsMyMVP]

But Nash is having a really good year so far in his first 7 games. They have had one of the toughest schedules in the NBA. It loosened up a bit and he went for 28 and 14. He isn't surrounded by much at all right now...and still playing at a high level.

[Kblaze8855]

Yeah Kobe's had pretty terrible supporting casts alright. Gasol, Odom, Bynum, Artest.... prime Shaq.

We gonna pretend you didnt know the teams I meant?

And Nash in 05...not one bit less talented than the Lakers in 09. Not one bit.

You have an MVP....a guy who would leave and lead several 50 time teams...a all NBA first teamer in Amare...and a 22/12 player in Marion who also guards 4 positions. And good shooters around them?

Nash cant look at any teams anyone has had with awe. For ****s sake he was at one point playing with Dirk...and 3 other all stars. They didnt play defense....but lets not act like it had nothing to do with Nash. nash has nobody to envy talent wise.


Lebron has big boy expectations, why, because he made it to the finals in the 2007 east? you talk about Nash not playing anyone. Nash would be a 4 time finalist if his team was in the east those years man.

We pretending the Pistons were not a good team? they were a hand in Horrys face from winning back to back rings,


Ray Allen led his teams further than Nash? He went to the conference finals once as the best player on his team. To get there he beat the 2001 Hornets.. with old Mashburn, young Baron, and not much else. And that series went to 7 games.

I dont believe I said he took a team further. I listed him on a long list of guys who have taken teams as far as Nash. A long list of non elite players.


Why do you give Dirk so much props and not Nash? Nash has had way more success than Dirk since they've split up, you're just weighting his one finals appearance x1000. They've split playoff series against each other, but when the Suns lost it was without Amare. Suns went to the conference finals 3 times, Mavs once. Mavs also got dominated by an 8th seed in the same year the Suns were clearly the 2nd best team in the league. They lost to prime Tim Duncan's Spurs in a very tight series. Spurs breezed through everyone else that year.

The Mavs lost Nash replaced him with a guy people called a loser in Terry...and won 58 games. Nash served them up. Next season Dirk personally did them in and got his team to the finals. Hes fallen apart several times too...but fact remains. In the best shot either of them had to make it to the promised land...Dirk took it. Nash did not.

[JtotheIzzo]

And Nash in 05...not one bit less talented than the Lakers in 09. Not one bit.



That is f*cking comedy right there.

Odom, Gasol, Bynum up front vs who? Amare and... and..?

Ariza as a stopper vs Raja Bell?

Lakers depth vs '05 Suns 7/8 man rotation?

you must be drunk...

[Kblaze8855]

back with the Nash hate.

classic.

Virtually everything ive ever said about him has ended up true. I listed him among a number of guys I was sure would never make me eat my words. Thus far....ive yet to taste them. I said back then he wasnt an MVP level player....and since I said it every single player...ALL OF THEM...I brought up as reason he wasnt...has either won a title or gotten closer than he has...and those two(Dirk and Lebron) did so with worse teams than Nash.

All I said back then...was that MVP level players tend to do more than he has. And every player I compared him to...has a ring or had a chance to win one. And not a single one of them has had more talent to get ther than Nash.




I love how you flipped this thread.

Amare signed a huge contract, spent the whole summer bigging himself up in NY, Nash is once again working a whole bunch of new faces into his team.

Comparing their situations is hardly equitable.


What? We talking about Nash playing with new faces as if Amare has been on the Knicks the last 6 years?


Why is it you work your disdain for Nash into every thread you possibly can?

I have no disdain for Nash. I have nothing negative to say about him personally. Hes never...by his own actions...even annoyed me. He got overrated for a while. But I have nothing negative to say about him.

And I doubt ive talked about him much in 2010. Ive said little about him really over the last few years. Comment on a game here and there. IF Amare comes up. Perhaps marion.

I dont have much to say about him really. He doesnt come up that often.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

Now your just trolling.

[JtotheIzzo]

Virtually everything ive ever said about him has ended up true. I listed him among a number of guys I was sure would never make me eat my words. Thus far....ive yet to taste them. I said back then he wasnt an MVP level player....and since I said it every single player...ALL OF THEM...I brought up as reason he wasnt...has either won a title or gotten closer than he has...and those two(Dirk and Lebron) did so with worse teams than Nash.

All I said back then...was that MVP level players tend to do more than he has. And every player I compared him to...has a ring or had a chance to win one. And not a single one of them has had more talent to get ther than Nash.





What? We talking about Nash playing with new faces as if Amare has been on the Knicks the last 6 years?



I have no disdain for Nash. I have nothing negative to say about him personally. Hes never...by his own actions...even annoyed me. He got overrated for a while. But I have nothing negative to say about him.

And I doubt ive talked about him much in 2010. Ive said little about him really over the last few years. Comment on a game here and there. IF Amare comes up. Perhaps marion.

I dont have much to say about him really. He doesnt come up that often.

tell me again how Rod Strickland and Mark Jackson were much better than him.

you make a lot of good points on most hoop topics, but this torch you carry for the anti-Nash faction brings you to stan/hater levels.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

Seriously. The year Lebron led his team to the finals he got swept by the team the Suns barely lost to :facepalm KBlaze should be banned.

[Kblaze8855]

That is f*cking comedy right there.

Odom, Gasol, Bynum up front vs who? Amare and... and..?

Ariza as a stopper vs Raja Bell?

Lakers depth vs '05 Suns 7/8 man rotation?

you must be drunk...

Its something like comparing the Heat to those lakers.

When your 8 man rotation is

Back to back MVP
26ppg all nba first team center
20/10 all NBA 3/4

And the 4th best player is Joe Johnson?

Joe isnt a great franchise player. As a 4th best player...hes ****ing absurd.

You have Qrich who might have approached the most 3s in NBA history that year(I assume you know..I dont feel like checking).

They were one of the most talented teams to ever step on the floor.

Not one of the most talented lately.

Nash had 80s talent.

As ive said before...

Give me one other combo of MVP, all nba first team center, 20/10 all nba guy, and 3-4 time all star who led 50 win teams...and guy who makes 200+ threes to space the floor...

That is absurd. like the worst you could do with any other combo of that is...

Iverson, Zo, Jermaine Oneal, Glen Rice or Steve Smith perhaps?, and Kyle Korver.

THe combo of talent they had to work with was flat out epic.

Im not gonna act like it wasnt because they "only" mustered 3 all nba guys an extra all star and some shooters....

It was an embarrassment of riches.

[Kblaze8855]

tell me again how Rod Strickland and Mark Jackson were much better than him.


Show me a speck of evidence I ever said they were and ill defend it.

All I can find is this:



He wasnt as good as the best. He was no Chris Paul or MVP Nash but he wasnt more than one step below.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=91578

and this:



Mark was flat out one of the best passers ever. Kidd and Nash kill him as total players but just off courtvision and the ability to get the ball where it belongs? Jackson is the equal of anyone out right now.


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56659


I may at one point have listed Mark and Rod among guys I think would do great in that system...I dont believe ive said they are better. If I did I wasnt serious...and I can find any evidence of even sayingit jokingly.



you make a lot of good points on most hoop topics, but this torch you carry for the anti-Nash faction brings you to stan/hater levels.


As shown above you crediting me with opinions I dont even have. Considering that...im not suprised you think that.

I mean...if I decide out the blue that you think Nash is better than Michael Jordan....I would think quite low of you.

Wouldnt mean you think it.

I think you are mixing up years of arguing about Nash to the point you credit everyone with everything anyone had to say.

Ive never acted like the guy sucks. Depending on who the issue is ive defended him(I found it insane people thought Cousy was better).

But I just dont buy him as an MVP level player and the results of the years since do nothing but make me believe I was right.

Doesnt mean I think hes a dick or anything.

He just isnt as good as MVPs generally are.

[JtotheIzzo]

Its something like comparing the Heat to those lakers.

When your 8 man rotation is

Back to back MVP
26ppg all nba first team center
20/10 all NBA 3/4

And the 4th best player is Joe Johnson?

Joe isnt a great franchise player. As a 4th best player...hes ****ing absurd.

You have Qrich who might have approached the most 3s in NBA history that year(I assume you know..I dont feel like checking).

They were one of the most talented teams to ever step on the floor.

Not one of the most talented lately.

Nash had 80s talent.

As ive said before...

Give me one other combo of MVP, all nba first team center, 20/10 all nba guy, and 3-4 time all star who led 50 win teams...and guy who makes 200+ threes to space the floor...

That is absurd. like the worst you could do with any other combo of that is...

Iverson, Zo, Jermaine Oneal, Glen Rice or Steve Smith perhaps?, and Kyle Korver.

THe combo of talent they had to work with was flat out epic.

Im not gonna act like it wasnt because they "only" mustered 3 all nba guys an extra all star and some shooters....

It was an embarrassment of riches.


in retrospect, they lacked size and toughness, tell me a team that won this decade without those attributes.

and the fact that you constantly bring up the Mavs performance after Nash left.

complete weaksauce.

They Mavs retooled their entire lineup after Steve left, Nash played on a team that started Antawn Jamison or Antoine Walker at center most of the season. A team grossly undersized and rife with depreciating chuckers (Finley, 'Toine).

Not a championship squad.

But you make the facile analogy.

you are better than that, why take the lame road that you know is wrong?


cuz you be hating.

done.

now lets move on...

[HorryIsMyMVP]

The Sun's had all those players the year before. Amar'e, Matrix, JJ , and Marbury. They won 29 games. Nash came in the next year and the team won 62 games.

[Kblaze8855]

Seriously. The year Lebron led his team to the finals he got swept by the team the Suns barely lost to KBlaze should be banned.


Um....


Z
Larry Hughes
Eric Snow
Sasha
Sideshow
donyell Marshall
David wesley
Boobie

Amare
Marion
Barbosa(6th man of the year...)
Diaw
Bell

We being for real right now?

[Kblaze8855]

The Sun's had all those players the year before. Amar'e, Matrix, JJ , and Marbury. They won 29 games. Nash came in the next year and the team won 62 games.

Marbury was traded after like 20 games for I think...Mcdyess, Penny, and Zarko. Amare was out for a month or two.

They spent most of the year just forcing their young guys to play and improve.

There are 15 players who played on the 04 Suns who were not there in 05.

Not that any of this is new...or that I think Nash didnt have a hell of a lot to do with the turnaround.

But it just wasnt the same team.

[LA_Showtime]

Amare was hardly exposed. Most people on ISH realize he's far from the superstar New York fans made him out to be. The guy is a very solid player who flourished under a system catering to his skills and a top flight point guard.

[New York Knicks]

I already said this when Amare was signed. He was a panic signing, nothing more. Amare can't be a #1 option because he's one-dimensional. He's a blackhole on offense. Once he makes his move, he's not gonna pass. He was going 1-on-5 not because he's selfish, but because he's too stupid to read the defenses and dish it out. But Amare is great if paired with an elite PG. Felton needs to go. I've been saying it and will continue to say it.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

Um....


Z
Larry Hughes
Eric Snow
Sasha
Sideshow
donyell Marshall
David wesley

Amare
Marion
Barbosa(6th man of the year...)
Diaw
Bell

We being for real right now?
Yeah, Lebron had a worse team and couldn't beat the Spurs in one game. The Suns were better then the Cavs. And the Spurs were the best team. If the Suns were in the East that year they would have played the Spurs in the finals. It's hardly a mile stone in Lebron's career. The winner that year was decided in the West.

[joe]

And Nash in 05...not one bit less talented than the Lakers in 09. Not one bit.


Come on now. Lakers in 09 weren't more talented than Suns in 05? Gasol, Odom, Bynum, Artest. That's murderers row. Amare, Marion, and Joe Johnson sounds great theoretically.. until you remember that Marion's offense is useless in grind it out playoff games. His 20/10 isn't like a Duncan or Gasol's 20/10, it's all fast-breaks and put-backs (Love his defense though). Johnson was injured in the conference finals, and Amare is awesome but he's several tiers below Gasol. You should know that, master of the tier system himself :cheers:


a all NBA first teamer in Amare


Wonder if he'll make first team this season.. Btw, check Warrick's stats


We pretending the Pistons were not a good team? they were a hand in Horrys face from winning back to back rings,



I'll steal a line from you.. we gonna act like you don't know what team I'm talking about? I'm not talking about the 04 or 05 Pistons. The 2007 Pistons were not on that level and you know it. They slipped further each year, and by 2007 they got man-handled by a one man show which was promptly swept in the finals. Man-handled may be a strong word considering the series went 6, but if I recall the Pistons won the first 2 before getting repeatedly back-smacked the rest of the series..





I dont believe I said he took a team further. I listed him on a long list of guys who have taken teams as far as Nash. A long list of non elite players.


How can you just rank things without any appreciation for nuances though? It's simplistic compared to the way you usually seem to look at things. Yeah technically Ray has led his team as far as Nash. But he beat worse competition and only did it once. Same for Lebron.



The Mavs lost Nash replaced him with a guy people called a loser in Terry...and won 58 games. Nash served them up. Next season Dirk personally did them in and got his team to the finals. Hes fallen apart several times too...but fact remains. In the best shot either of them had to make it to the promised land...Dirk took it. Nash did not.

So if Suns would've won that one series against Dirk you'd say he was elite, and Dirk wasn't? Doesn't matter that when both teams were full strength the Suns took it. And btw, that was Dirk's only chance to make it to the promised land, Nash had a few.. Dirk took it, you're right. But he beat a team without its second best player. Wonder if the Suns had beat the Lakers last year, say Gasol was out for the WCF.. Would you suddenly raise Nash to elite status like you do Dirk, or say it's tainted because Gasol was out?

[thejumpa]

Exposed? That would imply that something has been uncovered that was previously unknown. It's obvious that Amar'e benefited heavily from the PnR and Steve Nash. He doesn't have that in NY and like another poster said, he's trying to do too much. Once they get a PG that can effectively run the PnR and get some shooters in there, NY will be already and Amar'e will prove that he's a legit PF/C....once again. He's already 28 so they better hurry up.

[Kblaze8855]

I need t oget something to eat. I try to answer anyone with something to say as not to just...ignore the effort put into explaining...but im hungry as hell. So ill be brief here....



Come on now. Lakers in 09 weren't more talented than Suns in 05? Gasol, Odom, Bynum, Artest. That's murderers row. Amare, Marion, and Joe Johnson sounds great theoretically.. until you remember that Marion's offense is useless in grind it out playoff games. His 20/10 isn't like a Duncan or Gasol's 20/10, it's all fast-breaks and put-backs (Love his defense though). Johnson was injured in the conference finals, and Amare is awesome but he's several tiers below Gasol. You should know that, master of the tier system himself



I went into those teams above. As for Joes injury...

Im gonna spare you the list of like 48 times off the top of my head a team has to deal with having someone hurt and just say...part of the game. Thats why you build teams with great talent. To absorb such losses and keep moving. It was a factor. But the 05 Suns..without Joe...would still be more taltned than several teams that actually have rings.



Wonder if he'll make first team this season.. Btw, check Warrick's stats

He make it last season? Before that?

Before that?

Nash decide to stop making him great or should we credit him with his own rises and falls?




I'll steal a line from you.. we gonna act like you don't know what team I'm talking about? I'm not talking about the 04 or 05 Pistons. The 2007 Pistons were not on that level and you know it. They slipped further each year, and by 2007 they got man-handled by a one man show which was promptly swept in the finals. Man-handled may be a strong word considering the series went 6, but if I recall the Pistons won the first 2 before getting repeatedly back-smacked the rest of the series..


The pistons were still the pistons. They won like 60 games the year after that and played the Celtics as equals. The 07 Pistons were no joke. Lebron personally reached into the soul of every Michigan native...and snatched victory from the jaws of defeat.

If ever one could say a single player won a series...that was it.

Boobie had a big closeout game...with Lebron getting some of the hardest doubles ive ever seen in an effort not to let him beat them again.

Its hard to downplay what he did to the Pistons. He worked them like Nash did the Mavs in 05.

Both were total domination.



How can you just rank things without any appreciation for nuances though? It's simplistic compared to the way you usually seem to look at things. Yeah technically Ray has led his team as far as Nash. But he beat worse competition and only did it once. Same for Lebron.

Of course the situations are considered. But im not really comparing Nash to most of the people I mentioned. They were merely examples of non elites winning what Nash has.

In Lebrons case....totally remove 07 from happening...hes still better than Nash.


So if Suns would've won that one series against Dirk you'd say he was elite, and Dirk wasn't? Doesn't matter that when both teams were full strength the Suns took it. And btw, that was Dirk's only chance to make it to the promised land, Nash had a few.. Dirk took it, you're right. But he beat a team without its second best player. Wonder if the Suns had beat the Lakers last year, say Gasol was out for the WCF.. Would you suddenly raise Nash to elite status like you do Dirk, or say it's tainted because Gasol was out?

Actually Dirk winning that series doesnt even make him elite at the time.

Id say due to the fact he finally play D...attacked the basket...he started playing the kind of game you can lean on to win games that matter?

Id say its why he was better than Nash.

But I dont know that I could honestly say Dirk was as good as Kobe.

I can discuss Lebron as best. Duncan perhaps. Wade looked like it in the playoffs.

Nash? Cant do it. Cant make that case.

And if you arent arguably the best...you arent on that tier with the best...you arent elite.

If he was elite...there was still a notch above him. So..

What is being elite...if there is a level above you?

Its not being elite at all.

And now...I will go eat.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

It should be noted that every year Amar'e has played with Nash he shot over 53% and every year he was with out him he shot closer to 45% range.

[Fatal9]

Come on now. Lakers in 09 weren't more talented than Suns in 05? Gasol, Odom, Bynum, Artest.
Bynum was a non factor in the playoffs in both '09 and '10 due to injuries. Averaged 6/4 in the '09 run for example. Artest was a liability after the first round due to his awful shooting (though did step up in the game 7), his poor offense is one of the reason Lakers took a step back from '09 (went from 3rd best offense in the league to not even being top 10). The Lakers also had no bench until this year. Gasol was great last year but is not capable of doing what pre-injury Amare was doing to Duncan in '05.

[joe]

I need t oget something to eat. I try to answer anyone with something to say as not to just...ignore the effort put into explaining...but im hungry as hell. So ill be brief here....





I went into those teams above. As for Joes injury...

Im gonna spare you the list of like 48 times off the top of my head a team has to deal with having someone hurt and just say...part of the game. Thats why you build teams with great talent. To absorb such losses and keep moving. It was a factor. But the 05 Suns..without Joe...would still be more taltned than several teams that actually have rings.




He make it last season? Before that?

Before that?

Nash decide to stop making him great or should we credit him with his own rises and falls?






The pistons were still the pistons. They won like 60 games the year after that and played the Celtics as equals. The 07 Pistons were no joke. Lebron personally reached into the soul of every Michigan native...and snatched victory from the jaws of defeat.

If ever one could say a single player won a series...that was it.

Boobie had a big closeout game...with Lebron getting some of the hardest doubles ive ever seen in an effort not to let him beat them again.

Its hard to downplay what he did to the Pistons. He worked them like Nash did the Mavs in 05.

Both were total domination.




Of course the situations are considered. But im not really comparing Nash to most of the people I mentioned. They were merely examples of non elites winning what Nash has.

In Lebrons case....totally remove 07 from happening...hes still better than Nash.



Actually Dirk winning that series doesnt even make him elite at the time.

Id say due to the fact he finally play D...attacked the basket...he started playing the kind of game you can lean on to win games that matter?

Id say its why he was better than Nash.

But I dont know that I could honestly say Dirk was as good as Kobe.

I can discuss Lebron as best. Duncan perhaps. Wade looked like it in the playoffs.

Nash? Cant do it. Cant make that case.

And if you arent arguably the best...you arent on that tier with the best...you arent elite.

If he was elite...there was still a notch above him. So..

What is being elite...if there is a level above you?

Its not being elite at all.

And now...I will go eat.


It's not so much your overall point I disagree with. If you don't consider Nash elite that's your opinion. It's all the little things you say along the way that aren't adding up for me.

If Lebron was so good in 2007 that the mighty Pistons had no choice but to surrender to his greatness.. Why did the Spurs so easily shut him down? Same for the Celtics 2 out of the following 3 years? Because the Cavs weren't good enough? But yet again, why couldn't the Pistons hold him? It's because the Pistons weren't as good that year.

Why is it that Lebron is always on trash teams but Nash's are always so talented? Is it maybe because Nash has something to do with that? According to you I guess not, but I haven't heard people talk about Boris Diaw in a long while. Lebron's team right now looks pretty talented, record wise it isn't helping too much. Being a good teammate is part of who you are as a player, and Lebron wanting to keep his options open contract wise hindered the Cavs ability to get free agents. That doesn't count?

Amare is being exposed as we speak. I loved Amare on the Suns, but he's not a star player. He can dunk when he's around the basket, and shoot the mid-range J. Outside of that, his ball-handling and one on one moves are clunky. He doesn't rebound or defend. He can't pass. He looked great with Nash, and now Knicks fans wish they just took the cap space instead.

Look at Warrick. He's shooting like 68% right now, 12 points in 10 less minutes than Amare. He even has shown that mid-range J.

How was Nash never arguably the best? Not even arguably?

He constantly led the best offenses, had the most assists, the best shooter, one of the clutchest players, repeatedly made it to the WCF in a tough conference. Everyone is downplaying the old West nowadays, but at the time no one could shut up about how tough it was. Todays West is tougher, no doubt, but that west was no 2007 east. And guess what, Nash still made it to the WCF's in todays newer, tougher western conference.

Can't believe I'm still up talking about this. Honestly I feel like I could talk NBA and specifically Suns all day every day. It's been a fun convo, if people are still responding I'll be here, if not good night yall

[Prodigy]

Let Kobe take Amare, Marion in his prime, Joe Johnson, Barbosa, Jackson, and so on to anything short of a ring...he would never hear the end of it.

Id say that massive difference in expectations is a pretty clear indicator of who is and isnt elite.

That is a good, not great team. Of all the players you listed there only Marion was in his prime; that was not even the best Suns team of the past decade. A great team would be the 03-05 Pistons where they gelled perfectly and everybody was accountable under the reigns of Larry Brown. The best team Nash had was the 06-07 team where they got jobbed in the playoffs by Stern. Even then, the team was made of misfits that couldn't get any PT anywhere else. Nash might not put up the gaudy stats that you're so impressed with or have the post-season success that some may expect of a 2 time MVP but it has NEVER been because of him.

[Prodigy]

Oh. And stop saying that Lebron has achieved more than Nash. He hasn't.

Shaq
Duncan
Kobe
Dirk
Wade
KG (in one year whereas Nash has sustained excellence)


The list ends there for people who have performed better in the last decade.

This is not a debate.

[LA KB24]

lol @ walls of text.

typical Kblaze.

[LA_Showtime]

People comparing Kobe and Nash's teams are stupid. For one, Nash is no Kobe. Two, Gasol is way better than anything Nash has had to work with.

[JohnWall2]

most overrated player?

[StabMasterArson]

why's dude tryna act like the 05 suns wasn't 5 deep...only bench player they had was Jim Jackson towards the end of the season...other than that it was Steven Hunter,and Barbosa (and he wasn't shit till the 05-06 season and even then duke only played 57 games) off the bench

[JohnWall2]

most overrated player?

my bad gasol is

[Shepseskaf]

Nash is the least accomplished MVP of all time with the exception of Mcadoo who got hurt.
This I can agree with, although McAdoo was in a completely different category as a player than Nash, and the two shouldn't be compared that way.

It isn't a viable argument to say that Nash hasn't been an elite player -- he definitely has been. The problem is that he never should have "won" a single MVP, to say nothing of being given two.

This is why people have been labeled as "anti-Nash" on this board. I don't believe that anyone has an issue with him as a player and what he brings to the game, but the undeserved MVPs will always color the perception people have of him, although he obviously didn't have anything to do with the awards being given to him.

Take away the MVPs, and I'm fine with everything that Nash has done.

[NoName22]

Call me a hater but Nash having more MVPS than Kobe, Shaq, KG & Olajuwon or the same as Duncan is up there as the biggest jokes ever witnessed in the league.

[alenleomessi]

amare for blake griffin+ baron davis
Knicks for Blake Griffin
I doubt the Clippers accept this

[ginobli2311]

It's not so much your overall point I disagree with. If you don't consider Nash elite that's your opinion. It's all the little things you say along the way that aren't adding up for me.

If Lebron was so good in 2007 that the mighty Pistons had no choice but to surrender to his greatness.. Why did the Spurs so easily shut him down? Same for the Celtics 2 out of the following 3 years? Because the Cavs weren't good enough? But yet again, why couldn't the Pistons hold him? It's because the Pistons weren't as good that year.

Why is it that Lebron is always on trash teams but Nash's are always so talented? Is it maybe because Nash has something to do with that? According to you I guess not, but I haven't heard people talk about Boris Diaw in a long while. Lebron's team right now looks pretty talented, record wise it isn't helping too much. Being a good teammate is part of who you are as a player, and Lebron wanting to keep his options open contract wise hindered the Cavs ability to get free agents. That doesn't count?

Amare is being exposed as we speak. I loved Amare on the Suns, but he's not a star player. He can dunk when he's around the basket, and shoot the mid-range J. Outside of that, his ball-handling and one on one moves are clunky. He doesn't rebound or defend. He can't pass. He looked great with Nash, and now Knicks fans wish they just took the cap space instead.

Look at Warrick. He's shooting like 68% right now, 12 points in 10 less minutes than Amare. He even has shown that mid-range J.

How was Nash never arguably the best? Not even arguably?

He constantly led the best offenses, had the most assists, the best shooter, one of the clutchest players, repeatedly made it to the WCF in a tough conference. Everyone is downplaying the old West nowadays, but at the time no one could shut up about how tough it was. Todays West is tougher, no doubt, but that west was no 2007 east. And guess what, Nash still made it to the WCF's in todays newer, tougher western conference.

Can't believe I'm still up talking about this. Honestly I feel like I could talk NBA and specifically Suns all day every day. It's been a fun convo, if people are still responding I'll be here, if not good night yall

don't forget that the cavs lost larry hughes going into the finals. hughes was of extreme importance to the cavs team (yes its sad....but true). also....lebron just didn't play at the same level he did in the ECF. its not that the spurs were just amazing.....the matchup was better no doubt and losing hughes really hurt, but lebron simply played at a much worse clip than he did against the pistons.

as for nash. you can't overlook defense. i don't know why we always do. his defense is almost as bad as his offense is great. does nash impact the game positively? of course he does. he's a great player. but he's never been nor will he ever be in that truly elite class of a player like kobe/shaq/duncan/wade/lebron/dirk/kg.....etc. he's just not on their level.

in the playoffs. when defense is of supreme importance. nash and his team will always struggle. and that alone keeps him from being truly elite. it sounds crazy....but give me tony parker for a playoff series over nash every single time.

[NoName22]

don't forget that the cavs lost larry hughes going into the finals. hughes was of extreme importance to the cavs team (yes its sad....but true). also....lebron just didn't play at the same level he did in the ECF. its not that the spurs were just amazing.....the matchup was better no doubt and losing hughes really hurt, but lebron simply played at a much worse clip than he did against the pistons.

as for nash. you can't overlook defense. i don't know why we always do. his defense is almost as bad as his offense is great. does nash impact the game positively? of course he does. he's a great player. but he's never been nor will he ever be in that truly elite class of a player like kobe/shaq/duncan/wade/lebron/dirk/kg.....etc. he's just not on their level.

in the playoffs. when defense is of supreme importance. nash and his team will always struggle. and that alone keeps him from being truly elite. it sounds crazy....but give me tony parker for a playoff series over nash every single time.

I'll also add that I've NEVER saw Nash blamed for his lack of success.

Whenever elite players fail, they're slammed, but somehow Nash never was.

[joe]

This I can agree with, although McAdoo was in a completely different category as a player than Nash, and the two shouldn't be compared that way.

It isn't a viable argument to say that Nash hasn't been an elite player -- he definitely has been. The problem is that he never should have "won" a single MVP, to say nothing of being given two.

This is why people have been labeled as "anti-Nash" on this board. I don't believe that anyone has an issue with him as a player and what he brings to the game, but the undeserved MVPs will always color the perception people have of him, although he obviously didn't have anything to do with the awards being given to him.

Take away the MVPs, and I'm fine with everything that Nash has done.

But when you look at individual years it's hard to give it to someone else. It always feels like a travesty that Shaq only has one.. until you realize he always had another great player on his team, which history shows hurts your chances of winning MVP. Not to count the years he missed significant time with injuries, played his way into shape, etc. People only want to remember how dominant he was come playoff time, and forget the other factors.

Let's look at 2006. Kobe's team was a 7 seed, pretty much automatically disqualifies you from MVP. It was arguable whether Shaq was the best player on his own team, and he only played 56 games that season. Duncan's points were down below 19 and FG% below 49.

But Nash fills all the requirements. Undisputed best player on his team? Check. Great record? Check. Pretty stats? Check.

2005. Again.. Undisputed best player on his team? Check. Great record? Check. Pretty stats? Check.

Duncan missed like 16 games that year so that probably hurt his case. Shaq missed 15 games and was playing with Wade. Suns won how many more games than in the previous year?

Plus, people forget now that Nash brought back the point guard position. Jason Kidd had the passing but not the shooting. Other point guards at the time were all undersized 2's, like Iverson, Marbury, etc. Nash was a pure, pass first point guard, who could also shoot with efficiency from any range, and was simply dominating games from the PG position. Today we have so many point guards running rampant in the league that it's easy to forget that. This was a time before Chris Paul, before Deron Williams, etc..

Finally, remember that the voters were putting great emphasis on the word "Valuable." Not just the turnaround in Suns wins.. but that the Suns were like 0-10 when Nash didn't play in those two years. Add that to how horrible they looked every time the bench came in, and you start to see that it wasn't such a travesty.

[ginobli2311]

I'll also add that I've NEVER saw Nash blamed for his lack of success.

Whenever elite players fail, they're slammed, but somehow Nash never was.

yep. totally agree.

do you want to know why that is?

its because everyone knows nash is not truly elite. if he was on that level....he would get slammed like everyone else. but we all know that comparing nash to a guy like kg or kobe or dirk or lebron or shaq or duncan is laughable in terms of impact and even more laughable when it comes to the playoffs.

nash is a great regular season player. one of the best ever. but in the playoffs....he and his teams can't handle the toughness or pressure of the games.

[jaydacris]

oh i came in this thread thinking that there would be some scandalous Amare photos. bleh. highly disappointed.

[ginobli2311]

But when you look at individual years it's hard to give it to someone else. It always feels like a travesty that Shaq only has one.. until you realize he always had another great player on his team, which history shows hurts your chances of winning MVP. Not to count the years he missed significant time with injuries, played his way into shape, etc. People only want to remember how dominant he was come playoff time, and forget the other factors.

Let's look at 2006. Kobe's team was a 7 seed, pretty much automatically disqualifies you from MVP. It was arguable whether Shaq was the best player on his own team, and he only played 56 games that season. Duncan's points were down below 19 and FG% below 49.

But Nash fills all the requirements. Undisputed best player on his team? Check. Great record? Check. Pretty stats? Check.

2005. Again.. Undisputed best player on his team? Check. Great record? Check. Pretty stats? Check.

Duncan missed like 16 games that year so that probably hurt his case. Shaq missed 15 games and was playing with Wade. Suns won how many more games than in the previous year?

Plus, people forget now that Nash brought back the point guard position. Jason Kidd had the passing but not the shooting. Other point guards at the time were all undersized 2's, like Iverson, Marbury, etc. Nash was a pure, pass first point guard, who could also shoot with efficiency from any range, and was simply dominating games from the PG position. Today we have so many point guards running rampant in the league that it's easy to forget that. This was a time before Chris Paul, before Deron Williams, etc..

Finally, remember that the voters were putting great emphasis on the word "Valuable." Not just the turnaround in Suns wins.. but that the Suns were like 0-10 when Nash didn't play in those two years. Add that to how horrible they looked every time the bench came in, and you start to see that it wasn't such a travesty.

the mvp award and best player in the game award are two very different things. i mean....are you going to take nash or wade in 2006? are you really going to take nash over kobe?

nobody in the world thought karl malone was a better player than jordan. the mvp goes to the best player of the regular season as long as that player is winning games....because you really can't have the most "value" if your team sucks.

nash was deserving. i have no problem with either award. its a regular season award. nash would never be mentioned for a MVP award of the playoffs. plain and simple. nash is great in the regular season. he's not awful in the playoffs or anything....he's just not nearly as impactful.

its similar to joe johnson or jason terry or mo williams. they all look great in the regular season. but come playoff time....when that other team is good and tough and schemes against you night in night out for a seres....they just don't play even close to what they do in the regular season.

if you want to be listed as a truly elite player....you have to get better in the playoffs....not worse. and nash is almost always worse. and again...his defense is beyond bad....he's one of the worst defenders ever. based on numbers and the eye test....he's just really really bad.

[Shepseskaf]

But Nash fills all the requirements. Undisputed best player on his team? Check. Great record? Check. Pretty stats? Check.

2005. Again.. Undisputed best player on his team? Check. Great record? Check. Pretty stats? Check.
What are you smoking? Nash was the "undisputed best player" on the Suns in 2005 and 2006? That's just a flat-out ridiculous statement. You need to go check the rosters again, and do some serious re-evaluation.

As to the rest of your post, no one is saying that Nash isn't elite or that he didn't have a couple of stand-out years in 2005 and 2006. There just isn't any viable justification for not giving the award to Shaq in 2005, and someone else more deserving in 2006.

The numbers that Nash put up in both years are probably the worst for any MVP in the modern era.... and he is undoubtedly the worst player to be given the award in the noted time period.

To say nothing of the fact that Nash simply isn't an MVP-level player. Before he "won" the award -- TWICE -- it was pretty well established that only the most elite of elite players had a shot at the award. Of course, team victories were part of the equation, but the abilities of the player himself weighed very heavily.

Only with Nash do you have all sorts of rationalizations about how much a player directly contributes to team wins. There were a number of reasons why the 2004-05 Suns had such a striking increase in the number of wins over the previous season. Some of it had to do with Nash, but more, in my opinion, were about the injuries in the previous year, and the mid-season firing of the coach.

Nash is an elite player who I love to watch, but never should have been given one MVP, never mind two.

[joe]

yep. totally agree.

do you want to know why that is?

its because everyone knows nash is not truly elite. if he was on that level....he would get slammed like everyone else. but we all know that comparing nash to a guy like kg or kobe or dirk or lebron or shaq or duncan is laughable in terms of impact and even more laughable when it comes to the playoffs.

nash is a great regular season player. one of the best ever. but in the playoffs....he and his teams can't handle the toughness or pressure of the games.

First, responding to your other post, Tony Parker is known for his poor defense. And you'd take him over Nash in a series for his defense? That's bogus mang. Might as well take Amare over Bosh for defensive reasons.

Since when do people not call out Nash for poor defense? You must be new to these forums.

I understand putting KG, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, and even Lebron over Nash (which is the only questionable out of every name on that list, IMO), but where is all this Dirk non-sense coming from? I love Dirk, don't get me wrong, but what puts him above Nash? Because he beat the Spurs when Duncan had plantar fasciitis (sp?), the Suns without Amare, and then got whooped on by the Heat... beat down by an 8th seed.. and hasn't been relevant in the playoffs since.

He's been to the finals and Nash hasn't. He gets props for that. But people need to take circumstances into account. When both teams were at full strength, the Suns came out on top. Since Dirk and Nash went their separate ways, Nash has been to the WCF 3 times, Dirk once. In 2007 the Suns lost to the eventual champ, and were the consensus second best team in the league. They didn't get to the finals, but everyone knows they'd have chomped on Utah and Cleveland. How is that any different than making the finals, really?

You say Nash can't handle the pressure of the playoffs but the facts say he's one of the most clutch players we've seen in some time. Anyone who's followed his career will attest to that. Suns simply lost to better teams, they didn't melt under the pressure. That was all Dirk..lol.

That's a low blow, I really do like Dirk and I don't mean to sound that way. It's just irritating when people act like Dirk is somehow on Kobe level but Nash is with Tony Parker somehow. It's non-sense to me..

[joe]

What are you smoking? Nash was the "undisputed best player" on the Suns in 2005 and 2006? That's just a flat-out ridiculous statement. You need to go check the rosters again, and do some serious re-evaluation.

As to the rest of your post, no one is saying that Nash isn't elite or that he didn't have a couple of stand-out years in 2005 and 2006. There just isn't any viable justification for not giving the award to Shaq in 2005, and someone else more deserving in 2006.

The numbers that Nash put up in both years are probably the worst for any MVP in the modern era.... and he is undoubtedly the worst player to be given the award in the noted time period.

To say nothing of the fact that Nash simply isn't an MVP-level player. Before he "won" the award -- TWICE -- it was pretty well established that only the most elite of elite players had a shot at the award. Of course, team victories were part of the equation, but the abilities of the player himself weighed very heavily.

Only with Nash do you have all sorts of rationalizations about how much a player directly contributes to team wins. There were a number of reasons why the 2004-05 Suns had such a striking increase in the number of wins over the previous season. Some of it had to do with Nash, but more, in my opinion, were about the injuries in the previous year, and the mid-season firing of the coach.

Nash is an elite player who I love to watch, but never should have been given one MVP, never mind two.

Smoking nothing but newports mi amigo :-)

Actualllyy though someone was arguing Nash wasn't elite at any point in his career. But I don't blame you for not reading through every post in this thread, lol..

Is Nash really the only player the voters make those types of rationalizations for? If so, how did Garnett win in 2004 over Shaq? How did Iverson win in 2001 over Shaq?

They probably fit the same criteria Nash did.

Undisputed best player on team? Check. Great record? Check. Pretty stats? Check.

How come Charles Barkley won it in 93? He was a clear cut better player than Michael Jordan that year, huh? Because the voters always give it to the absolute best player in the game regardless of other factors that may be involved. Right?

Okay sorry for the sarcasm. But I must add, I don't think you're factoring in the amount of games Shaq missed in Nash's MVP years. That's something else that voters harp on. If you aren't there to play, how can you be adding value?

[ginobli2311]

First, responding to your other post, Tony Parker is known for his poor defense. And you'd take him over Nash in a series for his defense? That's bogus mang. Might as well take Amare over Bosh for defensive reasons.

Since when do people not call out Nash for poor defense? You must be new to these forums.

I understand putting KG, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, and even Lebron over Nash (which is the only questionable out of every name on that list, IMO), but where is all this Dirk non-sense coming from? I love Dirk, don't get me wrong, but what puts him above Nash? Because he beat the Spurs when Duncan had plantar fasciitis (sp?), the Suns without Amare, and then got whooped on by the Heat... beat down by an 8th seed.. and hasn't been relevant in the playoffs since.

He's been to the finals and Nash hasn't. He gets props for that. But people need to take circumstances into account. When both teams were at full strength, the Suns came out on top. Since Dirk and Nash went their separate ways, Nash has been to the WCF 3 times, Dirk once. In 2007 the Suns lost to the eventual champ, and were the consensus second best team in the league. They didn't get to the finals, but everyone knows they'd have chomped on Utah and Cleveland. How is that any different than making the finals, really?

You say Nash can't handle the pressure of the playoffs but the facts say he's one of the most clutch players we've seen in some time. Anyone who's followed his career will attest to that. Suns simply lost to better teams, they didn't melt under the pressure. That was all Dirk..lol.

That's a low blow, I really do like Dirk and I don't mean to sound that way. It's just irritating when people act like Dirk is somehow on Kobe level but Nash is with Tony Parker somehow. It's non-sense to me..

tony parker is literally twice as good defensively as nash is. thats how bad nash is on defense.

now. for dirk. look what dirk has done with the mavs for the last decade. and that is only part of it. look at dirk in the playoffs. he's been much better than nash in the playofs. i don't want to go too much into stats....but needless to say that dirk raises his game in the playoffs. his playoff PER is 25...nash's is 20. that is a big difference.

and again. dirk's defense is nothing special...but he's probably twice as good as nash in this area in terms of impact. don't forget that dirk grabs 11 boards a game in the playoffs....while scoring 26 points.

and dirk has proven he can elevate his game and his team passed a superior opponent and reach the finals. really? you are making excuses for the spurs when dirk dominated them in game 7 in san antonio with 37 and 15. nash never raised his game or his team's game to the heights that dirk did.

[joe]

tony parker is literally twice as good defensively as nash is. thats how bad nash is on defense.

now. for dirk. look what dirk has done with the mavs for the last decade. and that is only part of it. look at dirk in the playoffs. he's been much better than nash in the playofs. i don't want to go too much into stats....but needless to say that dirk raises his game in the playoffs. his playoff PER is 25...nash's is 20. that is a big difference.

and again. dirk's defense is nothing special...but he's probably twice as good as nash in this area in terms of impact. don't forget that dirk grabs 11 boards a game in the playoffs....while scoring 26 points.

and dirk has proven he can elevate his game and his team passed a superior opponent and reach the finals. really? you are making excuses for the spurs when dirk dominated them in game 7 in san antonio with 37 and 15. nash never raised his game or his team's game to the heights that dirk did.

We'll have to agree to disagree on Nash's defense. I think people overrate how bad it is, for two reasons.

1) He's a point guard. It's not an excuse, it's just a question of value. I personally don't see a great defensive point guard as necessary to championship success. I observe many championship teams with weak defensive point guards, including your boy Tony Parker, Derek Fisher, and John Paxon.

2) I think his defense is average at worst. There are two types of bad defenders; lazy/dumb ones, and untalented ones. Nash is untalented when it comes to defense, but not for lack of knowledge or effort. He understands rotations, puts a hand in the face, and can take a clean charge. Better than someone who's constantly lost on rotations and prefers to leak out on the break rather than contest the shot. Further, I find a PG's defensive reputation is often correlated with who his power forward and centers are. Switch Nash onto the Spurs and who knows what his defensive reputation is? Would he suddenly become a cagey defender who gets the most out of his abilities? Not because he's any better, but because the guys who get by him get stuffed by Duncan instead of a lay-up over Turkoglo. Just something to think about.


As for Nash not stepping up in the playoffs, I just think you're way off base here. Nash is one of the most clutch performers I've witnessed in the playoffs, especially at point guard. He gets it done time and time again. You must be forgetting all the clinics he put on the Mavericks in 2005. Almost breaking the assist record against the Lakers. Dropping like 28 and 13 against the Lakers in 2010. 31 points, 8 assists, 11-18 shooting in game 1 Vs. Spurs, 2007. Follows it up with 20 points and 16 assists in game 2. Dude doesn't miss in the 4th quarter. Especially in his prime...

[ginobli2311]

We'll have to agree to disagree on Nash's defense. I think people overrate how bad it is, for two reasons.

1) He's a point guard. It's not an excuse, it's just a question of value. I personally don't see a great defensive point guard as necessary to championship success. I observe many championship teams with weak defensive point guards, including your boy Tony Parker, Derek Fisher, and John Paxon.

2) I think his defense is average at worst. There are two types of bad defenders; lazy/dumb ones, and untalented ones. Nash is untalented when it comes to defense, but not for lack of knowledge or effort. He understands rotations, puts a hand in the face, and can take a clean charge. Better than someone who's constantly lost on rotations and prefers to leak out on the break rather than contest the shot. Further, I find a PG's defensive reputation is often correlated with who his power forward and centers are. Switch Nash onto the Spurs and who knows what his defensive reputation is? Would he suddenly become a cagey defender who gets the most out of his abilities? Not because he's any better, but because the guys who get by him get stuffed by Duncan instead of a lay-up over Turkoglo. Just something to think about.


As for Nash not stepping up in the playoffs, I just think you're way off base here. Nash is one of the most clutch performers I've witnessed in the playoffs, especially at point guard. He gets it done time and time again. You must be forgetting all the clinics he put on the Mavericks in 2005. Almost breaking the assist record against the Lakers. Dropping like 28 and 13 against the Lakers in 2010. 31 points, 8 assists, 11-18 shooting in game 1 Vs. Spurs, 2007. Follows it up with 20 points and 16 assists in game 2. Dude doesn't miss in the 4th quarter. Especially in his prime...


nash defensive win shares for career (1023 games) is 14.2

tony parker defensive win shares for career (675 games) is 29.9

LOL. like i said...parker is literally more than twice the player nash is on defense.

dirk has 43.7 defensive win shares in 928 games played.

nash is historically awful on defense. its not over-rated at all. in fact, its so bad that his negative impact on defense is probably under valued.

[ginobli2311]

We'll have to agree to disagree on Nash's defense. I think people overrate how bad it is, for two reasons.

1) He's a point guard. It's not an excuse, it's just a question of value. I personally don't see a great defensive point guard as necessary to championship success. I observe many championship teams with weak defensive point guards, including your boy Tony Parker, Derek Fisher, and John Paxon.

2) I think his defense is average at worst. There are two types of bad defenders; lazy/dumb ones, and untalented ones. Nash is untalented when it comes to defense, but not for lack of knowledge or effort. He understands rotations, puts a hand in the face, and can take a clean charge. Better than someone who's constantly lost on rotations and prefers to leak out on the break rather than contest the shot. Further, I find a PG's defensive reputation is often correlated with who his power forward and centers are. Switch Nash onto the Spurs and who knows what his defensive reputation is? Would he suddenly become a cagey defender who gets the most out of his abilities? Not because he's any better, but because the guys who get by him get stuffed by Duncan instead of a lay-up over Turkoglo. Just something to think about.


As for Nash not stepping up in the playoffs, I just think you're way off base here. Nash is one of the most clutch performers I've witnessed in the playoffs, especially at point guard. He gets it done time and time again. You must be forgetting all the clinics he put on the Mavericks in 2005. Almost breaking the assist record against the Lakers. Dropping like 28 and 13 against the Lakers in 2010. 31 points, 8 assists, 11-18 shooting in game 1 Vs. Spurs, 2007. Follows it up with 20 points and 16 assists in game 2. Dude doesn't miss in the 4th quarter. Especially in his prime...


also. i think nash is clutch as well. you misunderstand me. these other elite players we are talking about (including dirk) have had series or years in which they lifted their teams and play to new levels and at least made the nba finals. nash has never done this. he did this against the mavs in the 2nd round one year...but then got promptly stomped in the conference finals.

i'm not saying nash is not a great player. but he is not truly elite. his defense is far too bad to be considered elite.

agree to disagree. you saying nash's defense is average at worst just shows your bias and proves we can't have a legit debate.

[Blue&Orange]

If anything is being exposed is the Knicks organization.

How do you bring Felton to play with Amare? The guy can shoot, the guy can penetrate and score in traffic, but he can't run a team, he is atrocious in the pick&roll and i now understand why Okafor stagnated. Please bring back Duhon, he pick apart defenses with the slow Lee. Felton can't do it with probably the fastest PF\C duo on the league

I admit i haven't seen much bobcats games, who have? But if you're a GM, unless you're dumb, or you don't do your job and don't watch bobcats games either, you don't pair a 100$ million PF with absolutely no handles with a PG that can't do shit. That benefit of the doubt for that atrocious Jordan hill pick is gone, too much dumb moves right now.

Then D'Antoni is being exposed once again, after the Knicks lost 2 games after doing nothing but shoot threes and miss them, the guy comes public and criticizes Fields for attacking the basket :oldlol:
And how do you expect someone to teach defense when he doesn't understand the concept of defense? Talking about a guy that likes to put undersized PF's that are crap defenders at center playing against bigger players.

I mean time to clean house. Walsh must go, D'Antoni must go, Herb williams must go, everyone must go, period. Time for Knicks fans in NY to do more then boo in games, time to do what fans do in Europe, get phisical get confrontational and force changes, i know dolan won't go anywhere, but if he's harassed i'm pretty sure he will fired anyone to protect his physical integrity.



Amare isn't being exposed, unliked bobcats games i watched a coupled os suns games, Amare isn't being exposed, he's being what he is, like Kblaze8855 point out in his first post in this theard, and how i pointed out in the off-season, and people were all over me for having the nerve to compare David Lee to Amare.

[mrhoopfan]

Operating under the assumption that the 8-9 games played actually matters...

Amare came in at 21/8 in 34 minutes. Lowest shooting since 04. 5 turnovers a game. Pretty similar to the last few years but the worse shooting and high turnovers likely due to so few games. Nash at 18/9 on his worst shooting since 04 and 5 turnovers a game as well. Knicks are like 9th. Suns 11th. Amare misses like....1 shot a game more than he did in Phoenix.

Nash is off by as much as or more than Amare and his team isnt doing anything and he himself said that he doesnt know if he sees them as a playoff team.

There is nothing much positive to say about either right now. Nash having a good night. Amare has had a few.

Amare isnt being exposed as anything people have not said he was for years.

Hes not shooting well but this early...one game does that. Hes shot 60, 54, 44, 55, 47, 47, and 44 in all the games aside from the 5-21 that drags him down.

By the end of the year he will produce pretty much exactly the same as he has for years. Wont win as much...but the Suns arent doing shit either and best case...they get to and lose in the playoffs.

Neither Nash or amare are doing anything of note.

Kevin Love going off proves no more than Nash getting worked on defense by most any good player hes had to guard in the last 10 years.

Neither of them are special for anything done without the ball in their hands.



Great post!!!!

[joe]

also. i think nash is clutch as well. you misunderstand me. these other elite players we are talking about (including dirk) have had series or years in which they lifted their teams and play to new levels and at least made the nba finals. nash has never done this. he did this against the mavs in the 2nd round one year...but then got promptly stomped in the conference finals.

i'm not saying nash is not a great player. but he is not truly elite. his defense is far too bad to be considered elite.

agree to disagree. you saying nash's defense is average at worst just shows your bias and proves we can't have a legit debate.

lol whatever mang. Defensive win shares?


Modern Defensive Win Shares are most dependent on minutes played, defensive rebounds, steals, and blocks

Great stat buddy. Steals, blocks, pretty much exactly what I'm thinking about when measuring a PG's defense. Who cares about rotations, teamwork, use of call outs, things like that. I want to know the answer to..

0.25 * ((minutes played) / (team minutes played)) + 0.5 * ((total rebounds) / (team total rebounds)) + 0.25 * ((assists) / (team assists)).

That's how you find out who the real defenders are..


I give Dirk props for making the finals, but it's not the be-all end-all to whether or not a player can be considered elite. You know who else made the finals? Jason Kidd's New Jersey Nets. What if Jason Kidd played in the west and never made the finals? Would he not be elite?

Dirk stepped it up against the Suns, he made it to the finals, you can't take that away from him. I just wish you'd acknowledge that sometimes an elite player can step up, have great series', and still lose. It doesn't have to be black and white.. "this guy didn't make it to the magical plateau of the 4th round, therefore he isn't worthy of being called elite." Sometimes there's extenuating circumstances.

[mrhoopfan]

It's not so much your overall point I disagree with. If you don't consider Nash elite that's your opinion. It's all the little things you say along the way that aren't adding up for me.

If Lebron was so good in 2007 that the mighty Pistons had no choice but to surrender to his greatness.. Why did the Spurs so easily shut him down? Same for the Celtics 2 out of the following 3 years? Because the Cavs weren't good enough? But yet again, why couldn't the Pistons hold him? It's because the Pistons weren't as good that year.

Why is it that Lebron is always on trash teams but Nash's are always so talented? Is it maybe because Nash has something to do with that? According to you I guess not, but I haven't heard people talk about Boris Diaw in a long while. Lebron's team right now looks pretty talented, record wise it isn't helping too much. Being a good teammate is part of who you are as a player, and Lebron wanting to keep his options open contract wise hindered the Cavs ability to get free agents. That doesn't count?

Amare is being exposed as we speak. I loved Amare on the Suns, but he's not a star player. He can dunk when he's around the basket, and shoot the mid-range J. Outside of that, his ball-handling and one on one moves are clunky. He doesn't rebound or defend. He can't pass. He looked great with Nash, and now Knicks fans wish they just took the cap space instead.

Look at Warrick. He's shooting like 68% right now, 12 points in 10 less minutes than Amare. He even has shown that mid-range J.

How was Nash never arguably the best? Not even arguably?

He constantly led the best offenses, had the most assists, the best shooter, one of the clutchest players, repeatedly made it to the WCF in a tough conference. Everyone is downplaying the old West nowadays, but at the time no one could shut up about how tough it was. Todays West is tougher, no doubt, but that west was no 2007 east. And guess what, Nash still made it to the WCF's in todays newer, tougher western conference.

Can't believe I'm still up talking about this. Honestly I feel like I could talk NBA and specifically Suns all day every day. It's been a fun convo, if people are still responding I'll be here, if not good night yall



It's also interesting that the Mavs made it to the Finals when Nash Left. The year after I am fairly sure. Deron Williams, CP3 have never played on a team as talented as those Mavs teams.

[ginobli2311]

lol whatever mang. Defensive win shares?



Great stat buddy. Steals, blocks, pretty much exactly what I'm thinking about when measuring a PG's defense. Who cares about rotations, teamwork, use of call outs, things like that. I want to know the answer to..

0.25 * ((minutes played) / (team minutes played)) + 0.5 * ((total rebounds) / (team total rebounds)) + 0.25 * ((assists) / (team assists)).

That's how you find out who the real defenders are..


I give Dirk props for making the finals, but it's not the be-all end-all to whether or not a player can be considered elite. You know who else made the finals? Jason Kidd's New Jersey Nets. What if Jason Kidd played in the west and never made the finals? Would he not be elite?

Dirk stepped it up against the Suns, he made it to the finals, you can't take that away from him. I just wish you'd acknowledge that sometimes an elite player can step up, have great series', and still lose. It doesn't have to be black and white.. "this guy didn't make it to the magical plateau of the 4th round, therefore he isn't worthy of being called elite." Sometimes there's extenuating circumstances.

you can't use the position to explain it away. tony parker kills nash in this catergory. it just measures impact. is it perfect? nope...far from it. but nash fails the eye test and everything else you are talking about. he can't help board. he's not athletic enough to make the proper rotations are bother shooters on rotations. he doesn't take charges.

he simply is an awful defender based on any standard or measure. you said he was average at worst. and that is dead wrong. you also used parker as an example of a poor defender. which i completley disagree with first...but 2nd....he is much better than nash.

there is no magic plateau. he just isn't in that same category because of his level of play. its not like i would rank nash over dirk if for some reason his teams had more success. its all about level of play for me. and its simple. nash's level of play has not been on par with the other players we have talked about in the playoffs...especially on defense.

its all about level of play and impact.

[JtotheIzzo]

It's also interesting that the Mavs made it to the Finals when Nash Left. The year after I am fairly sure. Deron Williams, CP3 have never played on a team as talented as those Mavs teams.

The Mavs made it to the finals when Nash left argument is the stupidest (most stupid if you prefer) anti-Nash argument there is...why?



Lets look at who logged the most minutes for the Mavs in Nash's final season with Dallas.

Dirk PF (great player)
Antoine Walker PF (at this point a declining chucker, and his decline was FAST)
Antawn Jamison PF/SF(overrated, undersized)
Mike Finley SG (chucker)
Steve Nash SG (great player)
Josh Howard (not ready yet ~23 mpg ~8ppg)

They never had a starting center, they never had a post presence (Shawn Bradley and Dirk were the only 7 footers on the team who played more than 3 games) they were a perimeter team full of chuckers, two of which (Finley and Walker) were past their prime and hadn't realized it yet (hence they continued to chuck).

Add to the fact that Nellie coached them, there wasn't going to be a title. Especially in the '00's as every team that won a championship had great interior defense and a great post presence.

Dallas had nothing like that.


Fast forward to 2004-05 (Nash moves to Phoenix):

The Mavericks address their size issue adding:

Erick Dampier
Calvin Booth
Alan Henderson

They add quickness to the backcourt in:

Jason Terry
Devin Harris

They get great veteran role players in:

Jerry Stackhouse
Keith Van Horn
Darrell Armstrong

And they get a much better Josh Howard (9 more mpg) and Marquis Daniels.

Basically they added SIZE, great role players, speed and toughness, and they got more athletic, AND they also got rid of Jamison and Walker to had far too many touches (addition by subtraction).


Nash leaving is not the reason the Mavs moved forward, and if you believe that then you are a moron. What's funnier is the dumbass people who believe that, refuse to give Nash credit for Phoenix's 30 plus game turnaround.

f*cking crazy!

[joe]

you can't use the position to explain it away. tony parker kills nash in this catergory. it just measures impact. is it perfect? nope...far from it. but nash fails the eye test and everything else you are talking about. he can't help board. he's not athletic enough to make the proper rotations are bother shooters on rotations. he doesn't take charges.

he simply is an awful defender based on any standard or measure. you said he was average at worst. and that is dead wrong. you also used parker as an example of a poor defender. which i completley disagree with first...but 2nd....he is much better than nash.

there is no magic plateau. he just isn't in that same category because of his level of play. its not like i would rank nash over dirk if for some reason his teams had more success. its all about level of play for me. and its simple. nash's level of play has not been on par with the other players we have talked about in the playoffs...especially on defense.

its all about level of play and impact.

Fair enough

A couple random points..

1- I don't think Parker is any worse than Nash on D. I just don't think he's much better either. Slightly, if at all. It's too tough to guard point guard's with today's rules.. it's all about the big guys behind you, IMO

2- I don't think stats can be used to measure defense. Maybe GM's have some okay stats for it.. but defense is something you need to watch and see. Preferably in person. You say Nash fails the eye test which is fine, I won't argue with that. But defensive win shares are beyond pointless in my book. You say Nash fails by "any standard measure" of defense. Well... when the standard measure are useless that's not saying much. A guy in 1542 once failed a routine health check-up by all standard measures. If you catch my drift..


Nash's playoff averages 04-07..

Year Points Assists FG% 3pt%
04-05 23.9 11.3 52 39
05-06 20.4 10.2 50 37
06-07 18.9 13.3 46 49

Hopefully that reminds you Nash wasn't some slob in the playoffs. Anyway I'm done w/ all this, it's been fun arguing with you. until next time

[joe]

It's also interesting that the Mavs made it to the Finals when Nash Left. The year after I am fairly sure. Deron Williams, CP3 have never played on a team as talented as those Mavs teams.

Nah.. the year after Nash's Suns laid the smack down on 'em in round 2.. without Joe Johnson for like half the series. :-)

[NoName22]

Is Nash really the only player the voters make those types of rationalizations for? If so, how did Garnett win in 2004 over Shaq? How did Iverson win in 2001 over Shaq?

Because KG was the "undisputed" best player in the league in 2004. AI in 2001 led a less talented 76ers team to the same record as Shaq while absolutely dominating his competition.

Nash was never close to being the best player in the league. Some might say he's thje worst MVP of modern era & they're most likely right.

[ginobli2311]

Because KG was the "undisputed" best player in the league in 2004. AI in 2001 led a less talented 76ers team to the same record as Shaq while absolutely dominating his competition.

Nash was never close to being the best player in the league. Some might say he's thje worst MVP of modern era & they're most likely right.

this.

KG was actually a better player than shaq in 04 as well. it wasn't just that he had a better season. KG was a beast. 24 points 14 boards 5 assists while playing the best defense in the league. please don't compare kg's 04 season to any season nash played JOE. LOL.

[GreatHILL]

Kbitch8855 are u retarded or something?

[joe]

this.

KG was actually a better player than shaq in 04 as well. it wasn't just that he had a better season. KG was a beast. 24 points 14 boards 5 assists while playing the best defense in the league. please don't compare kg's 04 season to any season nash played JOE. LOL.

Ha.. you guys are totally right. Nash is the only player in the history of the Mvp to win it without being the undisputed best player in the league. Iverson was really killing it in 01, sure he was 15 FG% points behind shaq for only 3 more points.. and shaq averaged almost 13 rebounds.. but Iversons team was so much better record wise right? Ohhh wait they finished with the same record and Iverson was in a college level conference.. But Shaq must've missed a bunch of games like he did when Nash won Mvp right? OH WAIT he played 74 compared to only 59 in 2005-2006..

Nahhh it's just Nash that gets this preferential treatment, damn white media trying to hype up their great hope to change the NBAs reputation in the mind of its racist viewers..

[mrhoopfan]

Ha.. you guys are totally right. Nash is the only player in the history of the Mvp to win it without being the undisputed best player in the league. Iverson was really killing it in 01, sure he was 15 FG% points behind shaq for only 3 more points.. and shaq averaged almost 13 rebounds.. but Iversons team was so much better record wise right? Ohhh wait they finished with the same record and Iverson was in a college level conference.. But Shaq must've missed a bunch of games like he did when Nash won Mvp right? OH WAIT he played 74 compared to only 59 in 2005-2006..

Nahhh it's just Nash that gets this preferential treatment, damn white media trying to hype up their great hope to change the NBAs reputation in the mind of its racist viewers..


He's great but come on man. Only 2 time MVP to never make Finals. And since you're so into stats, whats the most assists Nash has averaged before his second go round in Phoenix? I am a Phoenix Suns fans but during Amare's years my main gripe with Nash was not only his on ball defense but that he dribbled too much and didn't make the simple play enough( like feed the post). Lot of his success individually was the system . Its been only nine games into the year but Ray Felton is averaging 16 and 8 on 46% in d'Antoni ball............ray Felton

[DatWasNashty]

Fukking retards on this foum namely kblaze (whoever this moron is), Sheepasskasf and that ginobli clown. Off yourselves right now. I'm hearing some gems in this thread.

Nash wasn't elite? :roll:

Nash wasn't the best player on the Suns? :roll:

Nash doesn't have great impact in the playoffs? :roll:

Nash had some stacked team in 2006? :roll:

Nash doesn't take charges? :roll:

[blondie]

I have been saying this even in Nash's MVP years when retarded suns fans like Jtotheizzo and Maniak were saying he was a franchise caliber bigman. I am vindicated

[Ikill]

Amare is not a product of steve nash its probably the other way around. Nash makes it kind of easier for amare but amare can still produce.

[hoopaddict08]

The Pistons are the example the Knicks can't afford to follow. Detroit used the money it freed up in last season's franchise-altering, Chauncey Billups-Allen Iverson deal to sign Ben Gordon (http://www.sbnation.com/nba/players/21810/Ben_Gordon) and Charlie Villanueva, good players who aren't even starters.

``I don't want to point them out, but we don't want to get stuck in mediocrity and we could have done that,'' D'Antoni said before the game.

``We could've put a Band-Aid on some holes and be more competitive and right now that seems like a good idea, even to me, because we have to go through this. But this summer would not have been a good idea.''

:lol

I think this was from last season. Basically he didn't want to sign a mediocre player. At least the Pistons got a 2 for 1 deal.

[Maniak]

Rekindled, good job placing your teams visible flaws on Amar'e, their best player.

[DatWasNashty]

Amare is not a product of steve nash its probably the other way around. Nash makes it kind of easier for amare but amare can still produce.

What evidence do you have regarding that statement you fukking moron? Nash had a better year in '05-06 (won MVP, had better stats than he did in '04-05) with Amare playing a grand total of three games.

Amare can produce but he's considerably less efficient. People love to bring up what he did in his rookie and sophomore years but never bring up how relatively inefficient he was. Mike D'Antoni is credited for creating Nash with that magical seven seconds or less offensive scheme of his but he clearly didn't have a drastic affect on Amare's game.

Amare, when he came back from injury in '03-04, under D'Antonio put up the following numbers:

Februrary - 23.7 ppg/9.1 rpg/49.2 FG%
March - 23.1 ppg/9.4 rpg/48.6 FG%
April - 25.7 ppg/10.7 rpg/43.6 FG%

His TS% for the whole year was 53.6 which takes his free throws made and attempted into account. The next year, his efficiency increased to the level where he was the most efficient power forward in the league. Why? Because of Steve fukking Nash. Part of the reason was Amare becoming a better player but Nash had a huge ass impact on his game. Amare is a finisher, not a creator. He can't create offense for others because he's a terrible passer with little to no awareness.

He's not someone you can consistently isolate on the block and expect him to score. He did that in stretches especially in the 2005 Western Conference finals but he was a hell of a lot more athletic (no microfracture back then) than he is now. He worked well with Nash because he knows how to cut to the basket and finish well due to his aggressive mentality and strong hands. Plus, he made quick decisions.

This whole Nash bashing on this forum is retarded. People don't know jackshyt about his game and his impact on the team. Nash's Dallas years are brought down but they don't realize they weren't running the offense through him. It's like having Jordan camp at the 3 point line ... yeah, no shyt he's not going to be as effective. And even then, Nash's impact in Dallas is understated.

Lets begin at the turn of the decade shall we ... Nash played 56 games in the 1999-00 season, 27 of them where he started and averaged 27.4 mpg. Dallas' record in the games where Nash played was 31-25. Dallas' record without Nash was a whopping 9-17. Dallas' two best players, Dirk and Finley, didn't miss any games either so it's not like the Mavs were lacking talent in the games Nash didn't take part in. If I remember correctly, Robert Pack took the role of the starting PG and that as evident by the results ... didn't turn out quite well.

Moving on to next year, Nash was made a full-time starter and it's no coincidence that Dallas ORtg increased from 7th in the league to 4th. Their DRtg also significantly improved although I'm not implying Nash starting was the primary reason for it. They brought in quite a few other guys which I'm sure helped the defense. But, again, Nash missed 12 games where Dallas had a 5-7 record. One of them was a win in OT against Orlando and they barely squeaked out a win against Charlotte (91-90 was the final score). Their offensive efficiency seemed to have taken a major hit with Nash out and this isn't even a prime Nash we're talking here. Dallas' record with Nash healthy and playing was 48-22, btw and Nash won his match up with John Stockton in the first round of the playoffs. Nash greatly upped his numbers, was one of the primary reasons for Dallas turning it around and taking G3 and G4. Although he seemed to have had a terrible G5, he still contributed with 5 rebounds and 7 assists.

In 2001-02 and 2002-03, Nash transformed into an all-star and made the all-nba 3rd team both years. His pure numbers might not blow you away but there's a few reasons for that. They had Van Exel for a couple of years and he handled the ball a good bit. In 2003-04, Nash regressed a bit and I would attribute that to Walker's presence who handled the ball a great deal and chucked away like there's no tomorrow. Jamison was there as well. I also think Dallas didn't have as many finishers like we do. They had a great deal of one-on-one players looking to create their own shot which did limit his assists a bit. Don Nelson has also had the mentality of causing match up problems and looking to capitalize on the mismatch which again hurts Nash's numbers. I think they were looking to just isolate a guy in the halfcourt and run when given the chance. Didn't run as many pick and rolls, pick and pops either which is something Nash excels at. So, his game was a bit limited and he was held back in their offense.

As for why didn't Dallas succeed, I'd attribute it to several positional issues, Don Nelson and a lack of interior defense/presence. I'd also like to point out that Nash WORKED ON HIS GAME during the 2004 off-season. Improved his diet and worked on his core for better balance and movement. Also became more mentally and physically tougher.

[LastChanceToWin]

I would give away Amare for free if the Knicks could at least get back 1/4 of the money we have to pay him

[RoTM]

Amare will put up 20ppg on slightly under 50% shooting while getting 8 boards and playing crappy defence. Theres nothing elite or franchise player about that. In a similar situation second/third tier guys like David Lee, West, Aldridge, Jeff Green, Scola, Beasley, Z-bo etc could do it. Paying them 100 million would be a travesty.

Amare will easily put up a worse line this year then what David Lee put up last year on a worse Knicks team. Total propaganda signing.

[PowerGlove]

LOL @ two players scoring 30 on the knicks=Amare's fault.

[LastChanceToWin]

LOL @ two players scoring 30 on the knicks=Amare's fault.
Location: ATL

[The_Yearning]

I've said all along this dude is a product of the system...of Steve Nash. He has no post up game.

[PowerGlove]

Location: ATL
:wtf:

[PurpleChuck]

I've said all along this dude is a product of the system...of Steve Nash. He has no post up game.

QFT.

[Sand1]

In all fairness the guys still an all star and I can't think of many PF i'd rather have in the currant climate so people like Duncan I wouldn't have as he'll retire in the next couple of season

maybe Dirk, Gasol and Blake Griffin

It's not his fault the knicks gave him such a big contract. If another company offered me more money i'd take it. I just hope it doesn't turn out to be a Juan Howard / Alan Houston situation where he's a good player on superstar money

He needs help the rest of the team are either inconsistent or suck

[CeltsGarlic]

Amare is not a product of steve nash its probably the other way around. Nash makes it kind of easier for amare but amare can still produce.

Nash product of Amare?Doesnt make any sense.

[StabMasterArson]

Nash is dropping

20pts 4reb 9.5ast. on 51%fg 42%3pts

Amare is putting up

20pts 8reb 2ast 2blks on 44%


KBlaze lost

[The_Yearning]

Lol at finally exposed...this guy was exposed a long time ago.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

Nash is dropping

20pts 4reb 9.5ast. on 51%fg 42%3pts

Amare is putting up

20pts 8reb 2ast 2blks on 44%


KBlaze lost
By the time this year is over Hakim Warrick will be a superstar and someone will want to pay him 100 million...:facepalm

[New York Knicks]

Felton need to go.

[Rowe]

By the time this year is over Hakim Warrick will be a superstar and someone will want to pay him 100 million...:facepalm
Yep.

Nash is going to turn Hakim Warrick into an All Star, because Amare was really just a mediocre athletic big man who Nash turned into an All Star.

:oldlol:

[gigantes]

I would give up the entire roster for Melo
that's funny- i wouldn't touch melo with a ten-foot pole unless i had a coach like PJ or pop to manage his hyper-bratty self.

[Roundball_Rock]

:pimp:

Amare up to 23/9 on 51% shooting with 2 blocks per game for the season...37/15/7 today.

Last 11 games: 26/9

Knicks 6-1 in their last seven games, up to 6th place in the East--a scant half a game behind the Lebron/Wade/Bosh Heat.

[Sarcastic]

:pimp:

Amare up to 23/9 on 51% shooting with 2 blocks per game for the season...37/15/7 today.

Last 11 games: 26/9

Knicks 6-1 in their last seven games, up to 6th place in the East--a scant half a game behind the Lebron/Wade/Bosh Heat.

:banana:
:dancin
:hammertime:

[Lakers12]

:pimp:

Amare up to 23/9 on 51% shooting with 2 blocks per game for the season...37/15/7 today.

Last 11 games: 26/9

Knicks 6-1 in their last seven games, up to 6th place in the East--a scant half a game behind the Lebron/Wade/Bosh Heat.

if amare played with nash today, his stats would have been 51/32/14 on 80% shooting.

[Kblaze8855]

Im shocked to learn that Amare can play without Nash. I somehow didnt notice that when he was putting up 23/9, 23/9, and 26/11 for the 3 months he played after he came back from injury....6 ****ing years ago with Nash in Dallas.

[Lakers12]

Im shocked to learn that Amare can play without Nash. I somehow didnt notice that when he was putting up 23/9, 23/9, and 26/11 for the 3 months he played after he came back from injury....6 ****ing years ago with Nash in Dallas.


you didn't know nash makes everyone better?

[GOBB]

I'd love to hear Rekindle thoughts now about Amare for Brand. Time to negative rep him. He'll see red now


you didn't know nash makes everyone better?

Wrong (something about typing that makes u feel godly no?), Nash is Jesus Christ. He does more than make everyone better, he is the reason they are relevant.

[Lakers12]

I'd love to hear Rekindle thoughts now about Amare for Brand. Time to negative rep him. He'll see red now



Wrong (something about typing that makes u feel godly no?), Nash is Jesus Christ. He does more than make everyone better, he is the reason they are relevant.

i was being sarcastic.

[GOBB]

i was being sarcastic.

And my post was what exactly?

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

Amare>Beasley

for now:pimp:

[shootingcomets]

i knew someone would dig this thread up whenever amare has a good game... thread is going to die again soon for like 2 weeks, then come back again for few days

[knickscity]

i knew someone would dig this thread up whenever amare has a good game... thread is going to die again soon for like 2 weeks, then come back again for few days
Amar'e is having a good season, not just a good game.

The problem is he doesn't have a legit pg.

Felton is a 2 who can kick out sometimes, he isn't a playmaker.

[AMISTILLILL]

He got exposed a long time ago:
http://www.eurweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/amare_stoudemire2010-naked-espn-ad-lrg-ver.jpg

[GOBB]

You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later.

Cant wait for later.

[NewYorkNoPicks]

37 points, 15 rebounds, 7 assists, and a block



Kiss my ass

[AMISTILLILL]

37 points, 15 rebounds, 7 assists, and a block



Kiss my ass

2OT.

[NewYorkNoPicks]

2OT.

54 minutes... only 6 more than if he had played an entire 4 qtr game.


Subtract the extra 6 minutes and use his point per minute rate from this game. He'd have 33 points.

Never the less, you still have to havet the talent the put up those numbers. And if you had watched the game, you see the talent and skill are there. You couldnt put Brian Scalabrine out there for 54 min and have him duplicate the same numbers.

[AMISTILLILL]

54 minutes... only 6 more than if he had played an entire 4 qtr game.


Subtract the extra 6 minutes and use his point per minute rate from this game. He'd have 33 points.

Never the less, you still have to havet the talent the put up those numbers. And if you had watched the game, you see the talent and skill are there. You couldnt put Brian Scalabrine out there for 54 min and have him duplicate the same numbers.

Truth.

[hitmanyr2k]

:pimp:

Amare up to 23/9 on 51% shooting with 2 blocks per game for the season...37/15/7 today.

Last 11 games: 26/9

Knicks 6-1 in their last seven games, up to 6th place in the East--a scant half a game behind the Lebron/Wade/Bosh Heat.

I think it helps that the Knicks haven't played a quality team in damn near 2 weeks.

[the_wise_one]

Amare - Nash = Trash.

[NewYorkNoPicks]

I think it helps that the Knicks haven't played a quality team in damn near 2 weeks.

part of being a solid team is beating the teams youre supposed to beat.

and its not like our team is overly talented anyway. you can argue the Bobcats have as much talent as us with Wallace, Jackson, Diaw and the emergence of Augustin

[knickscity]

part of being a solid team is beating the teams youre supposed to beat.

and its not like our team is overly talented anyway. you can argue the Bobcats have as much talent as us with Wallace, Jackson, Diaw and the emergence of Augustin
Exactly, we have been playing teams that have better players than us and in their building have been winning.

[Bigsmoke]

Amare has been on beast mode lately

[Undisputed]

Amare has been on beast mode lately
Amare always gets better as the season goes along.

[Hulk Hogan]

he is just a product of steve nash, i would trade him for elton brand right now, but i doubt philly would accpet.
:oldlol:

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

Amare is a beast:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[bagelred]

Amare is exposed for the superstar that he is.

[StillKill24]

Amare is exposed for the superstar that he is.
0-14

[Ikill]

Amare exposed :facepalm i don't know why people wanted to see him fail?

[EarlTheGoat]

Yeah, I was watching this bump come from mileeeeeeees away.

:lol

[DRoseOwnsACamry]

Aaaaaaaaaand this is why everyone hates Knicks fans.

[Sarcastic]

0-14

Is that your IQ? You don't have to use the dash.

[Draz]

yea .. 6 straight games with 30+ pts is a product of someone else .. mm

[StillKill24]

Is that your IQ? You don't have to use the dash.
jesus, i'm just kidding here and getting insulted by knicks fans :rolleyes:

[Ancient Legend]

yea .. 6 straight games with 30+ pts is a product of someone else .. mm

Clutch points at that, not empty stats as some other players.

[Scoooter]

Yeah, he's been killing fourth quarters. Exposed as a legit franchise player, I think.

[Draz]

i didnt like him in the beginning joining ny because he was taking jumpers,
he worked on it all, you see him dunking, a lot of chemistry.

[Patrick Chewing]

Player of the month thus far

[trig]

he's a product of felton :)

[no pun intended]

he's a product of felton :)
Why couldn't Emeka Okafor, Tyson Chandler, Boris Diaw, or Tyrus Thomas be as good as Amar'e Stoudemire then?

[Kblaze8855]

Id love to know what people thought they were seeing the last several years that suggested he needed Nash to do anything. A few open dunks make people ignore the fact that he was scoring on virtually every bigman in the league one on one since 2003?

[Patrick Chewing]

Why couldn't Emeka Okafor, Tyson Chandler, Boris Diaw, or Tyrus Thomas be as good as Amar'e Stoudemire then?

That was sarcasm on his part

[Bigsmoke]

Aaaaaaaaaand this is why everyone hates Knicks fans.

I think Rekindled is more of a Gallinari fan than a Knicks fan.

I remember he actually said he was better than Amare:rolleyes:

[icewill36]

knicks 14-9


suns 11-11

[3stat2]

Id love to know what people thought they were seeing the last several years that suggested he needed Nash to do anything. A few open dunks make people ignore the fact that he was scoring on virtually every bigman in the league one on one since 2003?
Quoted for truth. People don't like him because he's a threat to the title of top power forward, and is likely competing with their own favourite player.

[phoenix_bladen]

hahahaha do ppl still think

bosh > amare?

[ihatetimthomas]

Quoted for truth. People don't like him because he's a threat to the title of top power forward, and is likely competing with their own favourite player.

Thats just dumb. No one has ever questioned his offensive skillset. Its his lack of intensity to rebound and defend in the past. Only idiots care about the reasons you stated.

He is playing excellent though. I hope he can keep up his rebounding

[trig]

Why couldn't Emeka Okafor, Tyson Chandler, Boris Diaw, or Tyrus Thomas be as good as Amar'e Stoudemire then?

lol knick fans are too sensitive

[3stat2]

Only idiots care about the reasons you stated.
That's absolutely correct, and there are plenty of those.

[Bigsmoke]

hahahaha do ppl still think

bosh > amare?

Bosh has been better than Amare for 2 season in the row at a younger age :confusedshrug:

not a lot of player could have led Bosh' 2007 Raptors team to 47 wins.

[DOUBLE DRIBBLE]

^^^
Who has had the better career thus far or who is better currently?


lol at all the people who said Amate wasn't a franchise player and did not deserve a max contract.

lol at everyone that said that Nash made him and that he wouldn't do much without Nash as his teammate.

[PHX_Phan]

knicks 14-9


suns 11-11

Knicks

at Toronto
at Boston
Portland
Orlando (Postponed)
at Chicago
Washington
Philadelphia
at Milwaukee
Golden State
at Minnesota
Houston
at Denver
at Sacramento
at Golden State
at Los Angeles C
Charlotte
at Charlotte
Atlanta
at Detroit
New Jersey
at New Orleans
at Toronto
Minnesota
Toronto

Suns

at Portland
at Utah
Los Angeles L
San Antonio
Memphis
at Atlanta
at Memphis
Sacramento
at Los Angeles L
Denver
at Miami
at Orlando
at Charlotte
at Houston
Chicago
Los Angeles C
at Denver
at Golden State
Indiana
Washington
at Portland
Memphis

Teams .500 and above are highlighted.

[BrentISballin]

Just one of the many threads on here started by some kind of reflex when a player has a few bad games. ISH overreaction threads never fail

[Roundball_Rock]

^^^
Who has had the better career thus far or who is better currently?


lol at all the people who said Amate wasn't a franchise player and did not deserve a max contract.

lol at everyone that said that Nash made him and that he wouldn't do much without Nash as his teammate.

:applause:


Yeah, he's been killing fourth quarters. Exposed as a legit franchise player, I think.

:rockon:

[tontoz]

Amare always gets better as the season goes along.


Yeah he has been that way pretty consistently.

The big key with Amare is that he is a very effective midrange shooter and that skill will travel well.

Nice bump. It has been fun making fun of the Knicks and their fans for years but having been on the receiving end of that kind of abuse i know what it is like. Nice to see their fans actually have something to cheer about.

[Lakers12]

another monster game. 36 points and 10 rebounds and 5 assists. i'll overlook the 11 turnovers since the knicks won.

[Sarcastic]

another monster game. 36 points and 10 rebounds and 5 assists. i'll overlook the 11 turnovers since the knicks won.

2 blocks too, including a game changer on John Wall which preserved a 3 point lead.

BLOCKED (http://www.nba.com/games/20101210/NYKWAS/gameinfo.html)

[knickscity]

Bosh has been better than Amare for 2 season in the row at a younger age :confusedshrug:

not a lot of player could have led Bosh' 2007 Raptors team to 47 wins.
At what? Leading the team to lotto?

Don't give me the 1 more rebound thing.

Career-wise neither player averages 10 boards a game.

[swe_suns]

Knicks

at Toronto
at Boston
Portland
Orlando (Postponed)
at Chicago
Washington
Philadelphia
at Milwaukee
Golden State
at Minnesota
Houston
at Denver
at Sacramento
at Golden State
at Los Angeles C
Charlotte
at Charlotte
Atlanta
at Detroit
New Jersey
at New Orleans
at Toronto
Minnesota
Toronto

Suns

at Portland
at Utah
Los Angeles L
San Antonio
Memphis
at Atlanta
at Memphis
Sacramento
at Los Angeles L
Denver
at Miami
at Orlando
at Charlotte
at Houston
Chicago
Los Angeles C
at Denver
at Golden State
Indiana
Washington
at Portland
Memphis

Teams .500 and above are highlighted.

fyp as of last night

[Mrofir]

Let's see what happens. Amare has always played his best when given the green light, and D'antoni is giving him the biggest brightest green light he's ever seen. So far it's paying off in spades.. in the past the problem with the Suns in playoff series was that Amare can turn the ball over alot and fail to recognize when to pass when the defense hones in on him. At that point Nash would adjust by dominating the ball more and trying to get Amare direct feeds. The more physical things get, in the past, Amare has at times (specifically post injury) shrunk away from the challenge. If he had trouble receiving the ball on offense, his effort on d and rebounds would dwindle and suddenly he'd be making a boneheaded play. It seems that this year he's feeling physically better than ever, and he's got all the freedom he wants. He knows it's up to him now, and there isn't anyone else on the team who's going to carry them or take that responsibility away should he have an off game. That's the way he wants it, let's see what the Knicks can do and if Amare can avoid those issues he's fallen into before.

[knickscity]

He knows it's up to him now, and there isn't anyone else on the team who's going to carry them or take that responsibility away should he have an off game. That's the way he wants it, let's see what the Knicks can do and if Amare can avoid those issues he's fallen into before.
Exactly

[SpecialQue]

Can we change this to Pringles Finally Exposed?

[L.Kizzle]

Though this was gonna be about when he posed naked and only used two fingers to cover himself? :confusedshrug:

[OneBadUsername]

wow, nice find.

[SpecialQue]

http://www.5thquartermag.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/amare-body-espn.jpg

[chairman]

http://www.5thquartermag.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/amare-body-espn.jpg
Linsane

[SpecialQue]

From the first page:


I would give up the entire roster for Melo



amare for blake griffin+ baron davis

:D

[TheBigVeto]

he is just a product of steve nash.

This.

Amare - Nash = Trash.

Yet another reason why Nash is GOAT PG, he could transform this soft PF into a scoring machine in Phoenix.

[iDefend5]

I would give up the entire roster for Melo
:roll: :roll:

[ReturnofJPR]

I have to disagree. The ball should touch Amares hands every possession. Then they can play Melo from 3 off of Amares inside/midrange game. Linsansity should play off both of them. George Karl was a million times better of a coach than that idiot Dantoni who turned down the Bulls job..

[no pun intended]

Amar'e is a product of any pg who can play the pick and roll, as evident with Felton last year. I don't mind any player who's the product of another player. In fact, I see it as a complement of another player.

[Shepseskaf]

I have to disagree. The ball should touch Amares hands every possession. Then they can play Melo from 3 off of Amares inside/midrange game. Linsansity should play off both of them. George Karl was a million times better of a coach than that idiot Dantoni who turned down the Bulls job..
Amare is not a good passer. Giving him too many touches is a recipe for disaster.

Garnett is great in the role you described; Amare, not so much.

[305Baller]

http://www.5thquartermag.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/amare-body-espn.jpg

http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/gif/12b256ae7ecf43c22ff279a090ece918bab0fbb.gif

[ReturnofJPR]

Amare is not a good passer. Giving him too many touches is a recipe for disaster.

Garnett is great in the role you described; Amare, not so much.

Are you saying that bcuz garnett is on tv..

[Eric Cartman]

http://www.5thquartermag.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/amare-body-espn.jpg

This makes me feel better about myself.

[LABean]

Finally? :confusedshrug:

[NewYorkNoPicks]

This.

Amare - Nash = Trash.

Yet another reason why Nash is GOAT PG, he could transform this soft PF into a scoring machine in Phoenix.

Amare was drafted 10 YEARS AGO! do you expect a player, especially a player whos entire game was based on athleticism to be an elite player forever? Do i have to remind you of the microfracture knee surgery? The back injury from last year?

This is exactly how Blake Griffin will look in 2019

[TOUCH MY BODY]

Amare is a great defender :banana:

[Loneshot]

Three rebounds. This cat is atrocious.

[mikek85]

Steve Nash is God. Amare was just riding his coattails.

[mikek85]

I CAN"T BELIEVE THEY PAID HIM MAX HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :lol :lol :lol :oldlol: :oldlol:

[NewYorkNoPicks]

Steve Nash is God. Amare was just riding his coattails.

How about last season when Amare had 10 straight 30+ point games and was an early season candidate for league MVP.....without Nash.

25 ppg 8 rpg 2 blocks per game, 50% from the field last year....WITHOUT NASH

[no pun intended]

How about last season when Amare had 10 straight 30+ point games and was an early season candidate for league MVP.....without Nash.

25 ppg 8 rpg 2 blocks per game, 50% from the field last year....WITHOUT NASH
Again, I don't think Amar'e was a product of Nash. Instead, he's a product of PGs that can play the pick and roll well. And that's nothing to be frowned upon. Amar'e can play the pick and roll well than most players in the league. So essentially, he's a complement to a PG.

[blacknapalm]

Again, I don't think Amar'e was a product of Nash. Instead, he's a product of PGs that can play the pick and roll well. And that's nothing to be frowned upon. Amar'e can play the pick and roll well than most players in the league. So essentially, he's a complement to a PG.

this. the problem now is that he can't finish as well as he used to

[LockoutOver11]

How about last season when Amare had 10 straight 30+ point games and was an early season candidate for league MVP.....without Nash.

25 ppg 8 rpg 2 blocks per game, 50% from the field last year....WITHOUT NASH

yeah i remember that too... it was nice.

[chairman]

I CAN"T BELIEVE THEY PAID HIM MAX HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :lol :lol :lol :oldlol: :oldlol:
Hahahhahahahahahah

[MJ(Mean John)]

Someone's mental state, teammates, and confidence are very underrated on this board.

The Knicks need to start running plays for stat. He and melo need to be their goto weapons.

Amare and melo NEED to play defense. They NEED to play with heart.
Only then, will the Knicks be dangerous.

They don't need anymore pieces. They're deep enough.
When amare is ON, he can be the best big on any given night. Melo can be te best player, any given night. They just need to get it together. No excuses

[chips93]

Again, I don't think Amar'e was a product of Nash. Instead, he's a product of PGs that can play the pick and roll well. And that's nothing to be frowned upon. Amar'e can play the pick and roll well than most players in the league. So essentially, he's a complement to a PG.

so what, he was a product of raymond felton!? :oldlol:

he was a really good offensive player, and like any really good offensive player, he is more comfortable playing certain styles. nothing wrong with that.

[Wade3]

One of the most overrated players of recent memory, his defence/rebounding for an elite PF is quite simply atrocious

[JMT]

Finally? :confusedshrug:


yeah, no kidding.

I'd like to backtrack and see how many of these posters were lauding Amare as the best PF in the game not long ago.

He has a horrible basketball IQ. His success in PHX came about due to his youth and incredible athleticism, coupled with the brilliance of Steve Nash. Once he lost that little edge due to injury and wear & tear, his lack of understanding of the game wasn't hidden by his ability to recover athletically anymore.

He can run pick & roll on an uncluttered court. That's about it. An indifferent rebounder and absolutely horrible defender. Next smart pass he throws will be his first. Add to that a guy who doesn't appear to be particularly interested in being a great player or winning. Just going through the motions, loving living in NY.

It's been a terrible year for him on the personal front, and I'm sure that hasn't helped any. But he can't coexist with another player who needs the ball on either block, and can no longer run enough to take advantage of open floor opportunities.

Finally exposed? It was always there to be seen if you know what you're looking at.

[Bigsmoke]

Tom Thibodeau will show him the ropes.

trade Amare for Boozer please.

[hawkfan]

yeah, no kidding.

I'd like to backtrack and see how many of these posters were lauding Amare as the best PF in the game not long ago.

He has a horrible basketball IQ. His success in PHX came about due to his youth and incredible athleticism, coupled with the brilliance of Steve Nash. Once he lost that little edge due to injury and wear & tear, his lack of understanding of the game wasn't hidden by his ability to recover athletically anymore.

He can run pick & roll on an uncluttered court. That's about it. An indifferent rebounder and absolutely horrible defender. Next smart pass he throws will be his first. Add to that a guy who doesn't appear to be particularly interested in being a great player or winning. Just going through the motions, loving living in NY.

It's been a terrible year for him on the personal front, and I'm sure that hasn't helped any. But he can't coexist with another player who needs the ball on either block, and can no longer run enough to take advantage of open floor opportunities.

Finally exposed? It was always there to be seen if you know what you're looking at.

Amare was also playing with Boris Diaw (in shape then), Shawn Marion, Joe Johnson, Jason Richardson, Leandro Barbosa.

Amare needs to work on his midrange jumper and get that down. It would give his game a much needed new dimension.

[JMT]

Amare was also playing with Boris Diaw (in shape then), Shawn Marion, Joe Johnson, Jason Richardson, Leandro Barbosa.

Amare needs to work on his midrange jumper and get that down. It would give his game a much needed new dimension.

Amare won't work on anything. He's perfectly content with what he is.

[NewYorkNoPicks]

Amare won't work on anything. He's perfectly content with what he is.

Amares jumper rivaled KG's last season...you wouldve known that had you watched a single Knick game. Dont speak when youre uninformed

[hawkfan]

Amares jumper rivaled KG's last season...you wouldve known that had you watched a single Knick game. Dont speak when youre uninformed

Last year? What about now?

[tontoz]

he is just a product of steve nash, i would trade him for elton brand right now, but i doubt philly would accpet.

:facepalm

I guess you missed all last season. He admitted that he didn't think there would be a season this year and wasn't prepared for it. Get a grip.

[tontoz]

Amare was also playing with Boris Diaw (in shape then), Shawn Marion, Joe Johnson, Jason Richardson, Leandro Barbosa.

Amare needs to work on his midrange jumper and get that down. It would give his game a much needed new dimension.



Showing your typical ignorance. Amare's jumper has been strong for years. Coming into this season he was shooting mid-40s from 16-23 feet routinely.

[JMT]

Amares jumper rivaled KG's last season...you wouldve known that had you watched a single Knick game. Dont speak when youre uninformed

P&R in an uncluttered floor. It's the only place he thrives. You can create that stuff for him all day, and his stats will look better, but you'll never win.

Doesn't change anything else about his game.

[JMT]

:
He admitted that he didn't think there would be a season this year and wasn't prepared for it.

By all means, that's the kind of committed pro you want to rely on.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

JMT, a lot of players did not believe there would be a season. That doesn't reflect poorly on Amare.

[tontoz]

By all means, that's the kind of committed pro you want to rely on.


Amare's strong work ethic is well known. The way negotiations were going many players believed their wouldn't be a season. Dirk was actually deactivated during the season so he could go through 2 a day practices in order to get in shape.

Amare has already fought through two potentially career ending injuries. Questioning his commitment now is flat dumb.

Funny how people comment on things they know nothing about.

[guy]

He put up all-star numbers as a 2nd year player before he ever played with Nash and he was playing like a top 10 player in the league last year before Melo came and that was without Nash as well. He's definitely not just a product of Nash. I think its clear he's on the decline though and having issues playing with Melo.