Could Isiah Thomas be the most underrated player in NBA history.

[Niquesports]

Today for anyone under 30 Isiah Thomas is just a joke but everyone over 30 that remembers the bad boys and Thomas at IU knows that Chris Paul has nothing on him. I have Thomas as the 4 Greatest Guard of all time behind only Magic,Oscar and West.Lets look at Zekes Highlights

Came to a Pistons team that only won 16 and 21 games the previous and lead them to 39 wins as a rookie
3 straight seasons as ALL NBA First team
12 Time All Star
US Olympion
NCAA Champion
Career Avg of 19.2 ppg and 9.3 apg
High of 13.9 apg a record at that time 84-85 season
NBA All STAR MVP 2times.
1 of 4 players to have 9,000 assist others Stockton,Magic and Oscar (good company)
Then look at him on the Big stage the Post season

20.4 ppg
MVP of the 90 Finals where he avg 27ppg 7apg 5 rpg against Portland
Once had 24 point in the 3rd qt. in 87. A feat not even Jordan,Shaq,or Wilt has ever matched and can i add Kobe.
Then came back in 88- and scored 25points in the 3rd qt. of game 6. He did that on a severly sprined ankle.
The media and many fans have a very strong dislike for Thomas. He brought it mostly on himself for his public dissing of media darlings Jordan and Bird. His bad coaching and GM moves have made him a joke in todays NBA. But when silly young fans try and rank a Paul,or Lebron or even Kobe over THomas its time we stop ranking players off court issues and stick to there on court play and accomplishments. At slighly over 6ft and thats a very slightly THomas is a top 5 guard and will always be .

[YouCallILose]

No, John Stockton is.


Thomas is generally considered better than Stockton, yet


Stockton was basically Steve Nash with elite defense

[Niquesports]

No, John Stockton is.


Thomas is generally considered better than Stockton, yet


Stockton was basically Steve Nash with elite defense


Saying that I come up with 3 conclusions

1 You never saw them play
2 You fall in with other that just hate Thomas and love Stockton
3 Sure Stock got more assist but Thomas was also a great playmaker. But the big factor which makes your staement silly for lack of calling it stupid. Is that Isiah could take over a game in ways Stockton could only dream of. Thomas ability to be the best player on the floor no matter who else was on that floor is what seperates him from Stockton. Most would agree a THomas and Karl Malone duo would have won at least 1 ring

[Go Getter]

No, John Stockton is.


Thomas is generally considered better than Stockton, yet


Stockton was basically Steve Nash with elite defense

Idk about the elite defense part...he played off ball very well and was scrappy and venerable but I just don't know if I could say elite level D and I have THE UTMOST respect for Stockton.

As far as the OP I agree Zeke is very underrated imo.

[Niquesports]

No, John Stockton is.


Thomas is generally considered better than Stockton, yet


Stockton was basically Steve Nash with elite defense


Which is why he isnt a top 5 when you can compare him to Steve Nash . Stocton is like a Dan Mariono good numbers no post season heroics which will keep him out the top 5 and maybe the top 10. Guards that where/are better than Stock.

Magic
Osacr
West
Thomas
Kobe
Cousy
Frazier
Cousy
Payton
Then Stockton he may have been better at assist but in all around game these players were better. I would say Hal Greer was better also.

[YouCallILose]

Saying that I come up with 3 conclusions

1 You never saw them play
2 You fall in with other that just hate Thomas and love Stockton
3 Sure Stock got more assist but Thomas was also a great playmaker. But the big factor which makes your staement silly for lack of calling it stupid. Is that Isiah could take over a game in ways Stockton could only dream of. Thomas ability to be the best player on the floor no matter who else was on that floor is what seperates him from Stockton. Most would agree a THomas and Karl Malone duo would have won at least 1 ring


Stockton's prime was 15/13/3/3 on 50/40/90

Thomas's prime was 19/9/4/3 on 46/30/78


Stockton=Nash with elite defense
Thomas=Derrick Rose

:confusedshrug:

[Go Getter]

Stockton's prime was 15/13/3/3 on 50/40/90

Thomas's prime was 19/9/4/3 on 46/30/78


Stockton=Nash with elite defense
Thomas=Derrick Rose

:confusedshrug:


Zeke was the main event when he stepped on the court for the Pistons...if he had a Malone type scorer his numbers would have looked a bit better.

[brownmamba00]

LOL@ Frazier, Cousy and Payton:lol being better then Stockton.

[DCL]

isiah won at practically all levels. he was small man with high impact. he just did whatever to win and always played like that. people hate him because he was a sore loser and a dirty guy sometimes. but in old school view, that's just passion for wanting to win badly.

[YouCallILose]

Which is why he isnt a top 5 when you can compare him to Steve Nash . Stocton is like a Dan Mariono good numbers no post season heroics which will keep him out the top 5 and maybe the top 10. Guards that where/are better than Stock.

Magic
Osacr
West
Thomas
Kobe
Cousy
Frazier
Cousy
Payton
Then Stockton he may have been better at assist but in all around game these players were better. I would say Hal Greer was better also.


So Kobe Bryant is a better point guard than John Stockton.

AWESOME

[Niquesports]

Stockton's prime was 15/13/3/3 on 50/40/90

Thomas's prime was 19/9/4/3 on 46/30/78


Stockton=Nash with elite defense
Thomas=Derrick Rose

:confusedshrug:


Stocton elite Defense :confusedshrug: He was a very good off ball defender elite D ??? Are you saying he was equal to or better on D than Payton,D Johnson Joe Dumars,Jordan,Kidd, Alvin Roberstson thoses were the elite Defenders of Stockton's day he not in that elite class

[YouCallILose]

Stocton elite Defense :confusedshrug: He was a very good off ball defender elite D ??? Are you saying he was equal to or better on D than Payton,D Johnson Joe Dumars,Jordan,Kidd, Alvin Roberstson thoses were the elite Defenders of Stockton's day he not in that elite class

Stockton made 6 all defensive teams, pretty elite IMo

[Niquesports]

So Kobe Bryant is a better point guard than John Stockton.

AWESOME


I did say guards but Since most of my list are PG I give that to you drop Kobe cause if we just say guards that would move Stockton to below top 15

[DCL]

hard-nosed defender is not same as elite shut your muthafkin ass down defender. stock was the former.

[Niquesports]

Stockton made 6 all defensive teams, pretty elite IMo


How many of them were first team First Team is elite IMO

[Niquesports]

hard-nosed defender is not same as elite shut your muthafkin ass down defender. stock was the former.

THIS

[YouCallILose]

How many of them were first team First Team is elite IMO

He was going up against Joe Dumars, Michael Jordan, Gary Payton, and Michael Cooper for his entire career, aka 4 of the greatest perimeter defenders in the league's history

He's a much better defender than Chris Paul who made it in 2009

[Manute for Ever!]

I will never forget his putback dunk over Robert Parish (0:10)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChA45LsZm7I :bowdown:

[Niquesports]

He was going up against Joe Dumars, Michael Jordan, Gary Payton, and Michael Cooper for his entire career, aka 4 of the greatest perimeter defenders in the league's history

He's a much better defender than Chris Paul who made it in 2009


I dont think people read their own post before they post them. YOu making the excuse that the reason Stockton didnt make the first team was because who he was going up against. :facepalm Thats why he isnt "ELITE" cause he wasnt on the "ELITE" level. Was he better than Mookie Blaylock,Alvin Robertson, they somehow found a way to make First Team during Stockton's career.

[YouCallILose]

I dont think people read their own post before they post them. YOu making the excuse that the reason Stockton didnt make the first team was because who he was going up against. :facepalm Thats why he isnt "ELITE" cause he wasnt on the "ELITE" level. Was he better than Mookie Blaylock,Alvin Robertson, they somehow found a way to make First Team during Stockton's career.

I guess Andrew Bogut isn't an elite defender since he can't make 1st team all defense as Dwight is better

[Niquesports]

I guess Andrew Bogut isn't an elite defender since he can't make 1st team all defense as Dwight is better


Do you somehow no know the meaning of the word Elite ?

Elite- The group or part of a group reguarded as the Best.

No where does it say second best. Him never making First Team is why he isnt Elite. Say he was a good defender and you may be right.

[NoName22]

Stockton's prime was 15/13/3/3 on 50/40/90

Thomas's prime was 19/9/4/3 on 46/30/78


Stockton=Nash with elite defense
Thomas=Derrick Rose

:confusedshrug:

That's his career stats.

[iamgine]

Underrated yet overrated too.

[Niquesports]

Underrated yet overrated too.


Looking at his accomplishments on the court how can he be overrated ? He has never been a media favorite every since his calling out of media darling Larry Legend. Then things got worst with the Bad Boys and then his walking off the court and doging Jordan in the All Star game . Him Iverson and if he doesnt watch it Lebron are just not liked which hurt their legacy

[alwaysunny]

Do you somehow no know the meaning of the word Elite ?

Elite- The group or part of a group reguarded as the Best.

No where does it say second best. Him never making First Team is why he isnt Elite. Say he was a good defender and you may be right.

First team or not, it's still a very small percentage of players plus he was overshadowed by Jordan and Payton. Still he was obviously more than just a "good" defender.

[Hagbard]

I'm not sure who the most underrated player in NBA history is, but it sure as hell isn't a HOF'er. That's the very definition of being recognized and rated for your greatness.

[IGOTGAME]

First team or not, it's still a very small percentage of players plus he was overshadowed by Jordan and Payton. Still he was obviously more than just a "good" defender.

did you watch him play? I would prob say prime Kirk Hinrich was as good as an overall defender. Defense is more than steals and John Stockton wasnt shutting anyone down...especially not elite point guards.

[Niquesports]

First team or not, it's still a very small percentage of players plus he was overshadowed by Jordan and Payton. Still he was obviously more than just a "good" defender.


Again maybe your right but its just as obvious that he wasnt ELITE. IF he goes a whole career and not once selected First team. That shows he's not ELITE. Even Mookie Blaylock found time to make FIrst team 2 times. Which to me shows he should have made it over Stockton some of those years .

[Niquesports]

I'm not sure who the most underrated player in NBA history is, but it sure as hell isn't a HOF'er. That's the very definition of being recognized and rated for your greatness.


You went a little deeper than I was talking about. Im talking about by the avg. fanand most of the people here on ish. Sure among his peers he gets his due respect.

[Hagbard]

Once had 24 point in the 3rd qt. in 87. A feat not even Jordan,Shaq,or Wilt has ever matched.
Wilt scored 100 points in a game. If you don't think he ever scored 24 in a quarter, I'd like to see your math.

[Dasher]

Stockton was not an "Eraser" level defender, and thus was not elite. All NBA Defensive Teams have long been a joke. John was a quality defender, but had no business on any All Defensive team considering how much he got torched. John was consistently good, but he was not in the class of Zeke.

[LAClipsFan33]

I know one thing...Head up Isiah Thomas used to eat Stockton's breakfast, lunch, and dinner

[YouCallILose]

I know one thing...Head up Isiah Thomas used to eat Stockton's breakfast, lunch, and dinner

Uh...no he didn't. Take away Stockton's rookie year and there averages were


Stockton: 15.3 ppg 12.4 apg 2.9 rpg 2.3 TO/G 45/40/83 60.6 TS%

Thomas: 21.1 ppg 6.9 apg 3.3 rpg 3.5 TO/G 59.1 TS%

Thomas just took more shots..Stockton outplayed him easily and the Jazz were 8-6 vs the Pistons

Unless you're going to ignore assists by a starting PG, Stockton outplayed Thomas in every game but 2

[Niquesports]

Uh...no he didn't. Take away Stockton's rookie year and there averages were


Stockton: 15.3 ppg 12.4 apg 2.9 rpg 2.3 TO/G 45/40/83 60.6 TS%

Thomas: 21.1 ppg 6.9 apg 3.3 rpg 3.5 TO/G 59.1 TS%

Thomas just took more shots..Stockton outplayed him easily and the Jazz were 8-6 vs the Pistons

Unless you're going to ignore assists by a starting PG, Stockton outplayed Thomas in every game but 2

Anyone that ever saw the 2 play would differ from you. not sure where you got these numbers but !!!!!! THe Pistons were a team first team almost like the latter Piston or Knicks of the 70's. BUt in the Big game when needed most was when Thomas took over. Something Stockton failed to do which shows in his lack of ever winning a Ring. So use your little numbers of there h2h in the reg season. Sad thing is that it really isnt even close between Thomas and Stockton. Thomas was a Batman on 2 championship teams and Stockton was a Robin on a team that never won a championship.

[JayGuevara]

Wilt scored 100 points in a game. If you don't think he ever scored 24 in a quarter, I'd like to see your math.

I think that meant as far as the Finals. :confusedshrug:

[LAClipsFan33]

Uh...no he didn't. Take away Stockton's rookie year and there averages were


Stockton: 15.3 ppg 12.4 apg 2.9 rpg 2.3 TO/G 45/40/83 60.6 TS%

Thomas: 21.1 ppg 6.9 apg 3.3 rpg 3.5 TO/G 59.1 TS%

Thomas just took more shots..Stockton outplayed him easily and the Jazz were 8-6 vs the Pistons

Unless you're going to ignore assists by a starting PG, Stockton outplayed Thomas in every game but 2

I don't need stats. I watched it. Stockton did that cute little pick and pick and pop where Malone came free and did all the work hitting hit open jumper after open jumper Isiah was on the other end one on one busting Stockton.

[Monkey D Dragon]

On Ish Yes cause no one ever talks about this man besides him Fucccking up as a GM

[FormerSunsFan]

he was a force and he won without a dominant big man. i rarely see him given credit for this unlike other stars.

he was the man and the reason i started watching basketball.

[GOheAT]

Thats respectable.

[ILLsmak]

I don't need stats. I watched it. Stockton did that cute little pick and pick and pop where Malone came free and did all the work hitting hit open jumper after open jumper Isiah was on the other end one on one busting Stockton.

I think Stockton was better than you give him credit. I think he was good at pretending like he was playing smart but really pissing you off. He'd make a PG want to go at him.. which is the worst way to disrupt a team. And thats really good defense unless he is totally destroying you and winning the game.

If you look at the numbers, you can tell that Stock accounted for more points. A lot more, and on better percentages.

I am not hating on Isiah, but I still like Stock as my all-time PG. Being a good PG is knowing what position guys want the ball and getting them the ball. Also, reading on their face when they don't want the ball. It's not about assists per game.

I dunno if I'm ready to put Isiah in that elite PG level. He's not D Rose, as said, but Stock is a prototypical PG and I bet he could play in any system with any player. He just couldn't be the star, but most of the time you don't want your PG to be the star.

Edit: So, I'd say Stock was by far the better PG, but Isiah was a bit better of a player. And yes it's different.

-Smak

[DetroitPiston]

Thomas is not underrated. Being in the Hall of Fame says it all really.

As for the debate about him and Stockton, I'll take Thomas (Username and support aside.) Thomas wanted to win at all costs and he wasn't going to let anyone or anything stop him no matter what. Scoring 25 points in a quarter on a sprained ankle is a testament to that.

[YouCallILose]

So let me get this straight

Stockton put up better stats and won more games, but Isiah outplayed him?

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

Yeah i believe Isiah Thomas is the most underrated player of all time.

[DetroitPiston]

So let me get this straight

Stockton put up better stats and won more games, but Isiah outplayed him?

There's a saying that stats are like miniskirts, they show off the good stuff but hide the crucial part.

It helps Stockton's case that he won more games because he played until 2003. Thomas played until 1994. A huge difference between the two and can easily skewer it in Stockton's favor.

What made Stockton good was the he was consistently above average to very good. What made Isiah great was that he could up his game to be very great.

Again, stats don't tell the whole story.

[YouCallILose]

There's a saying that stats are like miniskirts, they show off the good stuff but hide the crucial part.

It helps Stockton's case that he won more games because he played until 2003. Thomas played until 1994. A huge difference between the two and can easily skewer it in Stockton's favor.

What made Stockton good was the he was consistently above average to very good. What made Isiah great was that he could up his game to be very great.

Again, stats don't tell the whole story.

No..I was talking about head to head games between the 2 players


Stockton put up better numbers head to head and won more games vs Isiah's Pistons

[DetroitPiston]

No..I was talking about head to head games between the 2 players


Stockton put up better numbers head to head and won more games vs Isiah's Pistons

Link?

[Fatal9]

Isiah was VERY inconsistent which is something that's never held against him for some reason. His shooting was very erratic and a double edged sword. He shot 43.8% in the '88-'90 stretch where Pistons made three finals, which is poor by any era's standards but particularly poor by 80s standards. Pistons won many many games in their playoff runs with him putting up poor shooting/overall numbers because those teams were always about "ride whoever is hot". Vinnie and Aguirre had it going on one night? Feed them the ball. Isiah and Dumars have it going on? Give them the ball. That sort of a team structure and their great defense (which Isiah contributed little towards) was what made those teams great. Guy has a lot of clutch performances, was what seems like a great leader, intensely competitive but he had a lot of flaws. The two rings overrate his impact if anything.

He wasn't better than Nash by the way.

[YouCallILose]

Link?

Stockton: 15.3 ppg 12.4 apg 2.9 rpg 2.3 TO/G 45/40/83 60.6 TS% 8 wins

Thomas: 21.1 ppg 6.9 apg 3.3 rpg 3.5 TO/G 50/35/76 59.1 TS% 6 wins

Those are their stats head to head, from basketball-reference

[Dasher]

No..I was talking about head to head games between the 2 players


Stockton put up better numbers head to head and won more games vs Isiah's Pistons
It is not really that simple. The Jazz Stockton were dominated by Isiah and The Pistons until Zeke's injury fueled decline began. 5 of The Jazz's win came after 1990, and one of them is the Malone Cheapshot game.

[DatWasNashty]

Isiah was VERY inconsistent which is something that's never held against him for some reason. His shooting was very erratic and a double edged sword. He shot 43.8% in the '88-'90 stretch where Pistons made three finals, which is poor by any era's standards but particularly poor by 80s standards. Pistons won many many games in their playoff runs with him putting up poor shooting/overall numbers because those teams were always about "ride whoever is hot". Vinnie and Aguirre had it going on one night? Feed them the ball. Isiah and Dumars have it going on? Give them the ball. That sort of a team structure and their great defense (which Isiah contributed little towards) was what made those teams great. Guy has a lot of clutch performances, was what seems like a great leader, intensely competitive but he had a lot of flaws. The two rings overrate his impact if anything.

He wasn't better than Nash by the way.
This man speaks the truth. Easily the best poster on this forum. I'd take Nash over this dude without any hesitation.

A point guard's main value is running a team's offense which is something Isiah was never elite at. The Pistons won championships because of their defense which Thomas had very little to do with although his defense, when it comes to forcing turnovers and being a pest, doesn't get enough credit. A point guard, generally, can't have a large impact on defense. Just doesn't happen. Gary Payton is the greatest defensive point I've seen yet he didn't have the ability to anchor defenses. Watch how Seattle's DRtg plummets right after Kemp's departure and goes down the drain when Karl leaves (trapping schemes were tremendous).

Thomas was a streak shooter who could get hot at times, had great leadership and will to win which leads people to overrate his impact. He was inefficient and inconsistent which is something people never bring up. He has a career TS% of 51.6 along with a career FG% of 45.2. That is relatively low for a guard from his era where games were generally faster paced although that seems to be more fitting to the Western Conference. He also averaged around four turnovers a game for most of his career yet that is always ignored. Also, Isiah missed a significant amount of time in the 1990-91 season where the Pistons posted a higher ORtg WITHOUT HIM than with him. What does that say about his team's talent, his offensive production and impact on the team?

Whenever I watched the early 1990s Pistons, I thought Dumars was clearly their best player along with Rodman having => impact than Zeke due to his vast edge in rebounding and defense. That seems to be true for the championship winning Pistons as well.

Isiah is a player whose flaws just aren't emphasized enough. People just remember the "good" which there is plenty of such as the great series against Portland in 1990, memorable third quarter explosion against L.A in G6 in 1988, 16 points in 90 seconds against New York etc. But, you can't just look at the good and ignore the negatives that are attached to the player. Otherwise, someone like Allen Iverson is one of the top twenty players ever based on his scoring bursts.

Safe to say, I'd take a bunch of PGs over Isiah "overrated" Thomas.

[Round Mound]

Stockton was Better. I saw them Both All the Time. I never liked Stockton.

Zeke was black, flashier and had better 1 on 1 moves and taking it to the basket. He was also more expressive so the camara would shift towards him, thats about it

Stock was a

Better Shooter
Creator
Passer
Defender
Stealer
Skilled Player
Smarter Player
Knew When To Shoot, When Not Too etc.

Rebounding wise around the same.

Zeke had monsters Offensively and Defensively in his teams:

Aguirre
Dantley
Laimbeer
Mahorn
Rodman
Dumars
and Himself.

He had it too Easy and had the Best Stacked Team 87-on

Stockton was a Top Defender in his 20s.

Defensive Rating

1986-87 NBA 101.9 (6)
1987-88 NBA 102.2 (8)
1988-89 NBA 101.1 (6)

[IGOTGAME]

Isiah was VERY inconsistent which is something that's never held against him for some reason. His shooting was very erratic and a double edged sword. He shot 43.8% in the '88-'90 stretch where Pistons made three finals, which is poor by any era's standards but particularly poor by 80s standards. Pistons won many many games in their playoff runs with him putting up poor shooting/overall numbers because those teams were always about "ride whoever is hot". Vinnie and Aguirre had it going on one night? Feed them the ball. Isiah and Dumars have it going on? Give them the ball. That sort of a team structure and their great defense (which Isiah contributed little towards) was what made those teams great. Guy has a lot of clutch performances, was what seems like a great leader, intensely competitive but he had a lot of flaws. The two rings overrate his impact if anything.

He wasn't better than Nash by the way.

consistency is overrated. Honestly the 82 games in regular season, the stats from those game, mean NOTHING. What matters is winning titles. I rather have an inconsistent player who steps up in the clutch and LEADS with his competitiveness and CAN WIN A RING over a guy who is steady and doesnt have that extra gear to win a ring. The two rings just emphasize his impact.

[Niquesports]

I think Stockton was better than you give him credit. I think he was good at pretending like he was playing smart but really pissing you off. He'd make a PG want to go at him.. which is the worst way to disrupt a team. And thats really good defense unless he is totally destroying you and winning the game.

If you look at the numbers, you can tell that Stock accounted for more points. A lot more, and on better percentages.

I am not hating on Isiah, but I still like Stock as my all-time PG. Being a good PG is knowing what position guys want the ball and getting them the ball. Also, reading on their face when they don't want the ball. It's not about assists per game.

I dunno if I'm ready to put Isiah in that elite PG level. He's not D Rose, as said, but Stock is a prototypical PG and I bet he could play in any system with any player. He just couldn't be the star, but most of the time you don't want your PG to be the star.

Edit: So, I'd say Stock was by far the better PG, but Isiah was a bit better of a player. And yes it's different.

-Smak

I understand what you mean but its lkinda of silly if you take Stockton ouot the equation and replace him with lets say Steve Blake. Blake might very well be a better pure PG but no way near the player Thomas is. Same can be said with say Mark Jacksonagain no way near the player as Thomas. So that being said your logic just doesnt work. YOu want the best player on the court thats gonna give you the best chance to win, not how pure he plays a certain postion. I like how you word things Stockton was a far better PG and Thomas was a bit better player. Lets make that they both were very good PG and Thomas was a much better all around player who could take over games

[Niquesports]

Isiah was VERY inconsistent which is something that's never held against him for some reason. His shooting was very erratic and a double edged sword. He shot 43.8% in the '88-'90 stretch where Pistons made three finals, which is poor by any era's standards but particularly poor by 80s standards. Pistons won many many games in their playoff runs with him putting up poor shooting/overall numbers because those teams were always about "ride whoever is hot". Vinnie and Aguirre had it going on one night? Feed them the ball. Isiah and Dumars have it going on? Give them the ball. That sort of a team structure and their great defense (which Isiah contributed little towards) was what made those teams great. Guy has a lot of clutch performances, was what seems like a great leader, intensely competitive but he had a lot of flaws. The two rings overrate his impact if anything.

He wasn't better than Nash by the way.


IF you said one thing that was remotely correct I would respect your opinion. But uhhhhhhhh Lets look at your sillyness . Isiah was without question the best player on a team that won back to back finals How many Finals has Nash even lead a team to ? As far as Flaws go most players have them . Can we begin with Nash.
Cant defend
Doesnt have the ability to take over a game and be the best player on the floor in big games
Inconsistant scorer
Two MVp greatly overrate his impact many still question how he got one not to mention back to back.
Im busy but I could go on. Nash isnt even a top 20 PG
BUt I just chalk you up as another person that just hates Isiah I bet you hate Iverson also

[Niquesports]

This man speaks the truth. Easily the best poster on this forum. I'd take Nash over this dude without any hesitation.

A point guard's main value is running a team's offense which is something Isiah was never elite at. The Pistons won championships because of their defense which Thomas had very little to do with although his defense, when it comes to forcing turnovers and being a pest, doesn't get enough credit. A point guard, generally, can't have a large impact on defense. Just doesn't happen. Gary Payton is the greatest defensive point I've seen yet he didn't have the ability to anchor defenses. Watch how Seattle's DRtg plummets right after Kemp's departure and goes down the drain when Karl leaves (trapping schemes were tremendous).

Thomas was a streak shooter who could get hot at times, had great leadership and will to win which leads people to overrate his impact. He was inefficient and inconsistent which is something people never bring up. He has a career TS% of 51.6 along with a career FG% of 45.2. That is relatively low for a guard from his era where games were generally faster paced although that seems to be more fitting to the Western Conference. He also averaged around four turnovers a game for most of his career yet that is always ignored. Also, Isiah missed a significant amount of time in the 1990-91 season where the Pistons posted a higher ORtg WITHOUT HIM than with him. What does that say about his team's talent, his offensive production and impact on the team?

Whenever I watched the early 1990s Pistons, I thought Dumars was clearly their best player along with Rodman having => impact than Zeke due to his vast edge in rebounding and defense. That seems to be true for the championship winning Pistons as well.

Isiah is a player whose flaws just aren't emphasized enough. People just remember the "good" which there is plenty of such as the great series against Portland in 1990, memorable third quarter explosion against L.A in G6 in 1988, 16 points in 90 seconds against New York etc. But, you can't just look at the good and ignore the negatives that are attached to the player. Otherwise, someone like Allen Iverson is one of the top twenty players ever based on his scoring bursts.

Safe to say, I'd take a bunch of PGs over Isiah "overrated" Thomas.


Great you take all the players with better Fantasy Basketball stats and I'd take the guy that found the way to win. Isiah. YOu go on and on I might have even taken you serious until you tried to say Rodman had a bigger impact that Thomas and then you threw AI in the topic and your true colors came out. Just another angry white guy that cant stand to see a brother speak his mind. So it clouds your judgement of his play. BUt its ok Nash is gonna retire without a ring and it won't be because he didnt have the support cast its cause he didnt have the ledership,skill,ability to do what it take to win a title.YOu see bias voters cant vote you a ring you need the talent to do that and Isiah did it during the hardest era of all time. As his teams leader.

[Niquesports]

consistency is overrated. Honestly the 82 games in regular season, the stats from those game, mean NOTHING. What matters is winning titles. I rather have an inconsistent player who steps up in the clutch and LEADS with his competitiveness and CAN WIN A RING over a guy who is steady and doesnt have that extra gear to win a ring. The two rings just emphasize his impact.
:bowdown:

All the fantasy stats and silly opinion of who was the better "pure " PG dont mean anything if youo cant step up in the big game . Nash failed to step up in the finals he played in to lead his team over tha t hold up Nash never even got to a finals why are we talking about him?

[magnax1]

Isiahs prime-21-11.4 2.2 steals
Stockton's prime- 16.4-14 3 steals
Just incase anybody was wondering. It's definitely close prime vs. prime.

[Niquesports]

Isiahs prime-21-11.4 2.2 steals
Stockton's prime- 16.4-14 3 steals
Just incase anybody was wondering. It's definitely close prime vs. prime.

Show their playoffs prime numbers you know when it counts . Lets see them numbers.

[magnax1]

Show their playoffs prime numbers you know when it counts . Lets see them numbers.
Stockon (year by year)
20-15 *
27-14
15-15
19-14 *
15-14 *
Isiah
21-11
24-11 *
26-12
24-9 *

Most of those are one series runs, so I put asterisks near playoff runs with more then one series. I'm to lazy to do the averages right now. Maybe I'll do them in a bit.

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

2 titles in the 80's >no titles in the 90'S

[magnax1]

2 titles in the 80's >no titles in the 90'S
Isiah won past his prime as with a 1a/1b type thing with Dumars. Really not that impressive.

[Niquesports]

Isiah won past his prime as with a 1a/1b type thing with Dumars. Really not that impressive.

Stockton never won even less impressive.

[magnax1]

Stockton never won even less impressive.
:lol
Maybe because he never had the best team in the league? Why do people really think that winning a championship means you're a better player? The best team wins. Isiah was probably better in his best years, but neither of them won in their best years, and when Isiah won he was a borderline top 10 player. So why are you even bringing it up?

[Niquesports]

:lol
Maybe because he never had the best team in the league? Why do people really think that winning a championship means you're a better player? The best team wins. Isiah was probably better in his best years, but neither of them won in their best years, and when Isiah won he was a borderline top 10 player. So why are you even bringing it up?


Because Isiah stepped his game up when it really counted to make or at least help his team be the best team Stockton never did this and Nash especially never did this.

[magnax1]

Because Isiah stepped his game up when it really counted to make or at least help his team be the best team Stockton never did this and Nash especially never did this.
Yeah, except Stockton is the only player on the Jazz that ever did step up his game in a close game. Nash always stepped it up in the playoffs. He averaged 24-11 20-10 and 19-13 from 05-07 in the playoffs. Stockton and Nash never won because they never had the best team. If you want to compare players, then compare the players. Not their teams.

[Niquesports]

Yeah, except Stockton is the only player on the Jazz that ever did step up his game in a close game. Nash always stepped it up in the playoffs. He averaged 24-11 20-10 and 19-13 from 05-07 in the playoffs. Stockton and Nash never won because they never had the best team. If you want to compare players, then compare the players. Not their teams.

Thats the point when the stars step up they make there teams the Best team. SO your telling me nash never had the best team to even make the finals not once ? Maybe that says something about his leadership or lack there of.

[magnax1]

Thats the point when the stars step up they make there teams the Best team. SO your telling me nash never had the best team to even make the finals not once ? Maybe that says something about his leadership or lack there of.
No, his teams were never better then Duncan's. 05 his team was obviously worse, and 07 his team might've been better though they got screwed over multiple times, and once again you're attributing a team's play to him. His team wasn't worse then Duncan's because of him or Duncan, they were worse because of Popovich and Ginobili in 05/Parker in 07. Duncan wasn't the one that stepped up (he actually was completely dominated in 05) it was the team that made the difference. Not saying Nash was the better player, because that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the team is what wins, not the individual. Why is it that only the best player can step up?
Basically what I'm saying is stop attributing a team's winning to an individual. It's a team sport for a reason.

[Sarcastic]

Isiah never had a player even half as good as Karl Malone, and yet he LED his teams past greats such as Michael Jordan, Magic Johnon, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Larry Bird, Patrick Ewing, Bernard King, and Moses Malone.

Isiah was better than Stockton.

[Niquesports]

No, his teams were never better then Duncan's. 05 his team was obviously worse, and 07 his team might've been better though they got screwed over multiple times, and once again you're attributing a team's play to him. His team wasn't worse then Duncan's because of him or Duncan, they were worse because of Popovich and Ginobili in 05/Parker in 07. Duncan wasn't the one that stepped up (he actually was completely dominated in 05) it was the team that made the difference. Not saying Nash was the better player, because that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the team is what wins, not the individual. Why is it that only the best player can step up?
Basically what I'm saying is stop attributing a team's winning to an individual. It's a team sport for a reason.


I guess you just missed Team 101 in basketball school. A teams leader is a vocal lead by action player. Players like Russell,Magic,MJ Bird and yes Isiah had that driving force that was picked up by their teammates. ITs not numbers its what ever it takes. Its Isiah killing the Lakers even in a losing effort on just 1 ankle. ITs Jerry West winning a finals MVp even though his team lost. Its Magic stepping up as a Rookie in a game 6 without its star player. Its Jordan playing like a mad man with the flu. Thats whats seperates Isiah from Nash and Stockton. Sure they had some very good games but never that defining game that makes the Great ones Great.

[D.J.]

Isiah truly was underrated. Remember, in his prime he went up against Magic, Bird, Jordan, Stockton, Olajuwon, Dominique, and Barkley just to name some. He won 2 rings and also a Finals MVP. Don't forget his play in '88 against LA when he played on a sprained ankle. Isiah rose to the occassion when it mattered. Not to say Stockton choked, but he didn't exactly step up his play and we won't talk about his teammate Mr. Mailman.

[Round Mound]

Isiah never had a player even half as good as Karl Malone, and yet he LED his teams past greats such as Michael Jordan, Magic Johnon, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Larry Bird, Patrick Ewing, Bernard King, and Moses Malone.

Isiah was better than Stockton.

No he wasn`t. :facepalm

I saw the games he was Better at Slashing 1 on 1 to the Basket. Thats it.

Stockton was a Better Total Player:

-Shooter
-Creator
-Passer
-Less Turnovers (with Less Options)
-Defender
-Stealer
-Desicion Maker
-Smarter
-As Clutch (Whole Game Wise for Him)

*Same level Rebounder but Isiah had Stacked Teams:

- Adrian Dantley All Star (ex MVP level player) one of the Best SFs in the Game still at that age was a monster Mid Range Player.

- Mark Aguiree All Star: One of the Best Scoring SFs in the the Game and a Monster Mid Range Player. Could Score 25 PPG on 45-50% FG

- Bill Laimbeer All Star: Lead the League in Rebounding Twice, One of the Best Man to Man Defenders in the Paint and had a (reliable far range shot). Could do 17-13-2

- Dennis Rodman All Star: Probably the Most Versatile Defending Forward of All Time (especially Man to Man), Defensive Player of The year and a Top Rebounder of All Time even in his early days Per Minute. Could do 10-15/17/18

- Joe Dumars All Star: All Defensive Team. Jordan`s Best Defender and Could Score 20 PPG on 45-50%. Could do 20-3-4.

-Salley: Great Shot Blocker and Defender

-Mahorn: One of the Toughest Pounders in NBA History. Solid Rebounder


Stockton only had Malone then Jeff Hornacek

[Niquesports]

No he wasn`t. :facepalm

I saw the games he was Better at Slashing 1 on 1 to the Basket. Thats it.

Stockton was a Better Total Player:

-Shooter
-Creator
-Passer
-Less Turnovers (with Less Options)
-Defender
-Stealer
-Desicion Maker
-Smarter
-As Clutch (Whole Game Wise for Him)

*Same level Rebounder but Isiah had Stacked Teams:

- Adrian Dantley All Star (ex MVP level player) one of the Best SFs in the Game still at that age was a monster Mid Range Player.

- Mark Aguiree All Star: One of the Best Scoring SFs in the the Game and a Monster Mid Range Player. Could Score 25 PPG on 45-50% FG

- Bill Laimbeer All Star: Lead the League in Rebounding Twice, One of the Best Man to Man Defenders in the Paint and had a (reliable far range shot). Could do 17-13-2

- Dennis Rodman All Star: Probably the Most Versatile Defending Forward of All Time (especially Man to Man), Defensive Player of The year and a Top Rebounder of All Time even in his early days Per Minute. Could do 10-15/17/18

- Joe Dumars All Star: All Defensive Team. Jordan`s Best Defender and Could Score 20 PPG on 45-50%. Could do 20-3-4.

-Salley: Great Shot Blocker and Defender

-Mahorn: One of the Toughest Pounders in NBA History. Solid Rebounder


Stockton only had Malone then Jeff Hornacek


Did A guy name mark eaton ever play with Stockton?
How about jeff malone
How about Thurl Bailey
How about a great coach Jerry Slone
How about a player better than anyone isiah had in Malone.
This was a championship team that just didnt have championship leadership.
Wasnt Stockton of of thhe jazz leaders ?

[magnax1]

I guess you just missed Team 101 in basketball school. A teams leader is a vocal lead by action player. Players like Russell,Magic,MJ Bird and yes Isiah had that driving force that was picked up by their teammates. ITs not numbers its what ever it takes. Its Isiah killing the Lakers even in a losing effort on just 1 ankle. ITs Jerry West winning a finals MVp even though his team lost. Its Magic stepping up as a Rookie in a game 6 without its star player. Its Jordan playing like a mad man with the flu. Thats whats seperates Isiah from Nash and Stockton. Sure they had some very good games but never that defining game that makes the Great ones Great.
You ignored everything I said, however, Stockton's game 6 vs Houston was as clutch/good as any Isiah game. 10 points in the last three minutes and the game winner to send them to the finals.
What you're saying is also stupid because nobody remembers the dominating performances of losing players. Nobody remembers TMac destroying the Bucks, and thats only because his team sucked. Will people remember Kobe destroying the Suns even though his performance wasn't near as great? Yep.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Nash didn't have the ability to take over big games and be the best player on the floor? Uh, the guy could light it up almost whenever he wanted and still can. Nash has gotten underrated on this board. I can't count how many times he's gone on hot shooting streaks with pull up 3s, fadeaway mid-range shots ect. and he does it in the 4th quarter, too.

Has everyone forgotten what Nash did to Dallas in the 2005 playoffs? 30.3 ppg, 6.5 rpg and 12 apg while shooting 55% from the field, 42% on 3s and 96% from the line.

He can and has taken over a game, but what really made him a great player is how he made his teammates better. He's consistently gotten guys the ball in spots where they can do the most damage and when he has to, the guy is one of the best shooters I've seen and he has the ability to make some clutch shots. If I need a shot to tie a game or win a game, Nash is high on my list.

I remember a game vs Dallas in 2007 where Nash just hit clutch shot after clutch shot, I know it went into atleast 1 OT, and none of it surprised me.

I'm not sure why Nash is underrated. At his peak, there haven't been many point guards better, and Nash is still playing very well at 36.

[joshwake]

Idk about the elite defense part...he played off ball very well and was scrappy and venerable but I just don't know if I could say elite level D and I have THE UTMOST respect for Stockton.

As far as the OP I agree Zeke is very underrated imo.
And this is more proof why Stockton is underrated. You never watched him play.

[Niquesports]

You ignored everything I said, however, Stockton's game 6 vs Houston was as clutch/good as any Isiah game. 10 points in the last three minutes and the game winner to send them to the finals.
What you're saying is also stupid because nobody remembers the dominating performances of losing players. Nobody remembers TMac destroying the Bucks, and thats only because his team sucked. Will people remember Kobe destroying the Suns even though his performance wasn't near as great? Yep.
Yes real basketball fans remember Jerry West winning the finals MVP on e the losing team> Yes real basketball fans remember Isiah killing the Lakers on one ankle.I think you need to go back to the my OP before you try and make Stocktons good game comparison to Isiah 's Great clutch perfromances.

[magnax1]

Yes real basketball fans remember Jerry West winning the finals MVP on e the losing team> Yes real basketball fans remember Isiah killing the Lakers on one ankle.I think you need to go back to the my OP before you try and make Stocktons good game comparison to Isiah 's Great clutch perfromances.
Bold has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.Jerry West and Isiah weren't losing players.And, no I don't need to go back. Stockton was more clutch then Isiah, no doubt in my mind. Stockton took over many games, many times, even when he was way past his prime. People saying that Stockton couldn't take over games is one of the stupidest things I hear on here regularly. He was the only Jazz player in the 90's that did.

[Niquesports]

Bold has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.Jerry West and Isiah weren't losing players.And, no I don't need to go back. Stockton was more clutch then Isiah, no doubt in my mind. Stockton took over many games, many times, even when he was way past his prime. People saying that Stockton couldn't take over games is one of the stupidest things I hear on here regularly. He was the only Jazz player in the 90's that did.

Im sure he did he just didnt do it when it mattered. I see your little slick comments meant to knock Malone..I recall Stockton getting shut down by the Bulls. What goes on in your mind doesnt make it fact. What is fact is that Stockton never stood up on the biggest stage and lead his team to victory when it really counted. Thomas has. Stockton was never his teams best player Thomas has been his teams best player. Stockton like nash was always a co-dependent player unlike Thomas who could both be a passer and take over the game. Stockton is on the list of players that just couldnt get it done and Thomas is on the list of players that knocked down walls fought off lions climbed the highest moutains to win. SUre in game 36 Stockton was a beast but when it really counted he was a ***** cat.

[magnax1]

Im sure he did he just didnt do it when it mattered. I see your little slick comments meant to knock Malone..I recall Stockton getting shut down by the Bulls. What goes on in your mind doesnt make it fact. What is fact is that Stockton never stood up on the biggest stage and lead his team to victory when it really counted. Thomas has. Stockton was never his teams best player Thomas has been his teams best player. Stockton like nash was always a co-dependent player unlike Thomas who could both be a passer and take over the game. Stockton is on the list of players that just couldnt get it done and Thomas is on the list of players that knocked down walls fought off lions climbed the highest moutains to win. SUre in game 36 Stockton was a beast but when it really counted he was a ***** cat.
Stockton got shut down by the Bulls? 16-9 in the finals during a 14-10 season? And I never knocked on Malone, I insulted everyone on the Jazz as a whole, once again one player doesn't win a series, the team does. The reason they always lost was that Stockton was the only player that ever came through. Also, you're giving to much credit to Isiah when Dumars played as well in the finals as Isiah did. You're attributing a teams win to Isiah. This is really a pointless argument if you keep saying Isiah did things that he really didn't do. I already said Isiah was better in his prime, but in no way did he take over series that he shouldn't have won anyway, or dominate teams far beyond what he did during the regular season especially when he was past his prime winning titles.

[Niquesports]

Stockton got shut down by the Bulls? 16-9 in the finals during a 14-10 season? And I never knocked on Malone, I insulted everyone on the Jazz as a whole, once again one player doesn't win a series, the team does. The reason they always lost was that Stockton was the only player that ever came through. Also, you're giving to much credit to Isiah when Dumars played as well in the finals as Isiah did. You're attributing a teams win to Isiah. This is really a pointless argument if you keep saying Isiah did things that he really didn't do. I already said Isiah was better in his prime, but in no way did he take over series that he shouldn't have won anyway, or dominate teams far beyond what he did during the regular season especially when he was past his prime winning titles.
IF you wina MVP in a finals your still playing at prime level. ITs also a point less argument if youn try and say Stockton lack of ability to put up big numbers when the rest of his team was not playing up to par is what seperates him from Thomas. IF the Pistons needed 30 from Thomas to win he wojld get 30 if they needed assist he would get 10-12 and 20points. But yes for the most part of his career his numbers were better in the post season than the reg season

[magnax1]

IF you wina MVP in a finals your still playing at prime level. ITs also a point less argument if youn try and say Stockton lack of ability to put up big numbers when the rest of his team was not playing up to par is what seperates him from Thomas. IF the Pistons needed 30 from Thomas to win he wojld get 30 if they needed assist he would get 10-12 and 20points. But yes for the most part of his career his numbers were better in the post season than the reg season
:lol
:facepalm
I think that's reason enough to say this argument is over.

[Fatal9]

this niquesports guy is dumb as rocks. stop rambling and make a point worth arguing.

[Sarcastic]

- Adrian Dantley All Star (ex MVP level player) one of the Best SFs in the Game still at that age was a monster Mid Range Player.

- Mark Aguiree All Star: One of the Best Scoring SFs in the the Game and a Monster Mid Range Player. Could Score 25 PPG on 45-50% FG

- Bill Laimbeer All Star: Lead the League in Rebounding Twice, One of the Best Man to Man Defenders in the Paint and had a (reliable far range shot). Could do 17-13-2

- Dennis Rodman All Star: Probably the Most Versatile Defending Forward of All Time (especially Man to Man), Defensive Player of The year and a Top Rebounder of All Time even in his early days Per Minute. Could do 10-15/17/18

- Joe Dumars All Star: All Defensive Team. Jordan`s Best Defender and Could Score 20 PPG on 45-50%. Could do 20-3-4.

-Salley: Great Shot Blocker and Defender

-Mahorn: One of the Toughest Pounders in NBA History. Solid Rebounder


Stockton only had Malone then Jeff Hornacek

Again, none of these players are even half as good as Karl Malone. Malone is easily a top 20 player of all time. None of those guys are even close to that.

I saw both Isiah and Stockton play as well. Isiah was better.

[D.J.]

Regular season, give me Stockton. Playoff game, Isiah by a mile.

[Round Mound]

Again, none of these players are even half as good as Karl Malone. Malone is easily a top 20 player of all time. None of those guys are even close to that.

I saw both Isiah and Stockton play as well. Isiah was better.

U must be stupid if u think 1 Great Player and Stockton > Isiah (All Star) plus 2-3-4 Constan All Stars and All Star Level Players in your team (plus Chuck Daily, Dream Team Coach)

Isiah wasn`t better than Stockton at anything other than going slash 1 on 1.

Malone was made greater by Stockton. He didn`t even have a post game till about 1995

[Sarcastic]

U must be stupid if u think 1 Great Player and Stockton > Isiah (All Star) plus 2-3-4 Constan All Stars and All Star Level Players in your team (plus Chuck Daily, Dream Team Coach)

Isiah wasn`t better than Stockton at anything other than going slash 1 on 1.

Malone was made greater by Stockton. He didn`t even have a post game till about 1995

I think you are just trying to belittle Malone as part of your agenda in boosting Barkley's stock.

Don't worry. Barkley was better than Malone.

However, Malone definitely played a larger role in boosting Stockton's numbers, than vice versa. Now way Stockton could put up the numbers he did without a finisher like Malone. Isiah never had a finisher like that to play with. All those all stars are nothing compared to having 1 guy who could do what Malone could. Stockton also had other people to pass to in his career that could finish. As far as shot making is concerned, Hornacek and Dumars are about equal. Taking those 2 out of the equation, that leaves Aguirre, Dantley, and Laimbeer as Zeke's other finishers. None of those guys can even come close to the Mailman.

[Round Mound]

I think you are just trying to belittle Malone as part of your agenda in boosting Barkley's stock.

Don't worry. Barkley was better than Malone.

We know but No im just saying the truth. Karl had a great mid range shot and far range even young but had not developed a dominant post game before.

However, Malone definitely played a larger role in boosting Stockton's numbers, than vice versa. Now way Stockton could put up the numbers he did without a finisher like Malone. Isiah never had a finisher like that to play with. All those all stars are nothing compared to having 1 guy who could do what Malone could.

Adrian Dantley was an All Star and MVP candidate: arrived just about his end of prime in the Pistons.

- The Best Pure Scorer of the 80s
- The Best Scoring SF of All Time
- The Best Mid Range Player of All Time prior to Barkley
- A Top 5 Player till the mid 80s.

Player Efficiency Rating

1979-80 NBA 24.3 (3)
1980-81 NBA 24.3 (5)
1981-82 NBA 24.2 (3)
1983-84 NBA 24.6 (1)
1985-86 NBA 24.6 (2)

And a Top 12 Player in the mid-late 80s

*Till 1988 he was a 26 PPG on 55-56% FG plus FG, 6-7 RPG and 4-5 APG Player.

Aguirre was an All Star: A monster Efficiency Scorer (just right below the level of King and Dantley himself) and solid all around player before comming to Detroit better rebounder than Dantley too

2nd year: 24.4 PPG (48.5% FG) :6h in the League
3rd year: 29.5 PPG (52.4% FG): 2nd in the League
4th year: 25.7 PPG ( 50.6% FG): 8th in the League
5th year: 22.6 PPG (50.3% FG):
6th year: 25.7 PPG (49.5% FG): 7th in the league
7th year: 25.1 ppg (47.5% FG)

Playing at an average of 33 MPG he was a 24-25 PPG (close to 50% FG) also averaging 6-7 RPG and 4 APG. Same in the Play-Offs

One of the Best SFs of the 80s.

He came to detroit at age 28 his PEEK

Him and Dantley lowered their FG attempts in Detroit cause u also had Isiah (who overshot) and

Joe D who was capable of scoring 20 PPG on 47-48% FG and Among the Best Defensive SGs

Isiah had 3: 20 PPG 47-55% capable Scorers, Stockton had 1.


Stockton also had other people to pass to in his career that could finish. As far as shot making is concerned, Hornacek and Dumars are about equal. Taking those 2 out of the equation, that leaves Aguirre, Dantley, and Laimbeer as Zeke's other finishers. None of those guys can even come close to the Mailman.

:no:

Isiah had 3 Options for Top of the Level Scoring: Dantley, Aguirre, Dumars and himself.

Yet he shot below 46% for Most of his career. Stockton rarely shot below 50% FG in his Prime.

Laimbeer (All Star): Lead the League in Rebounding at 13.1 in 85-86 and for 6-7 seasons was a: 15 PPG (49% FG), 12 RPG and 1 BPG man for 34-35 MPG. A Defensive Player of the Year Every Year in his Prime

John Salley was a monster shot blocker capable of averagin 2.5-3 BPG per 36 Minutes to go along 7-8 RPG.

Rodman was a 10-16 RPG per 36 minutes to go along with the most versatile Defender of the 80s: guarding SGs, SFs, PFs and Cs: Defensive Player of the Year and The Top Rebounder when he got the minutes

Mahorn was also capable of 8-10 RPG too.

Isiah was Stacked with Scorers, Rebounders and Defenders 85% of his Career

Stockton had Malone (no post game till 1995), The Best Interior Defender and Shot Blokcer in Eaton (zero offensive game) for most of his prime. And no Offensive Weapons till they got Jeff (when he was past his prime)

Stockton`s Prime 87-95 was by far Better than Any Isiah Thomas Ever Was

[rainydrinkwater]

I don't think Isiah was underrated in his era, and it might be a stretch to call him the most underrated of alltime, but I feel that people who didn't see him play (my god, as the catalyst on the only team that could break up the monopoly those great Lakers and Celtics teams), probobly undervalue him in terms of listing all time greats.

That was a great era, with many, many great players, and a fair share of generational talents.

[Niquesports]

:applause: :applause:
:lol
:facepalm
I think that's reason enough to say this argument is over.
SHow me one thing that i siad that isnt true. But yes I was you I would have given up long time ago.:applause:

[Niquesports]

this niquesports guy is dumb as rocks. stop rambling and make a point worth arguing.
To say your dumb as rocks would be an insult to rocks.

[Niquesports]

U must be stupid if u think 1 Great Player and Stockton > Isiah (All Star) plus 2-3-4 Constan All Stars and All Star Level Players in your team (plus Chuck Daily, Dream Team Coach)

Isiah wasn`t better than Stockton at anything other than going slash 1 on 1.

Malone was made greater by Stockton. He didn`t even have a post game till about 1995
A Stockton,malone Jerry Slone trio should have won at least once . ITs not not like Malone is a Barkley this is one of the top 5 PF of all time.

[Round Mound]

A Stockton,malone Jerry Slone trio should have won at least once . ITs not not like Malone is a Barkley this is one of the top 5 PF of all time.

So is Malone :rolleyes: :confusedshrug:

[the_wise_one]

He's not the most underrated. He's black.

[Niquesports]

He's not the most underrated. He's black.
Wow now that took brains.

[ronniec]

I don't think he is underrated.

One of the best 50 players in NBA, 2 time champ. If not because his bad relationship with Jordan probably he would be on the first dream team instead of Stockton.

One of the best, and I never underrate him.

[momo]

Doesn't it say something about Zeek that in a thread about him being or not being underrated he is constantly being compared to other greats? Has anyone rated him by saying he is better than or worse than Bobby Sura? Or Mookie Blaylock? It should be a small clue.

Zeek played on an iconic championship team, had some of the most iconic and memorable plays, is in the hall of fame and has a scar the size of texas on his grill from the mail mans elbow... I think he is rated pretty well :lol

He is handicapped by being considered a douchebag by a lot of people and by his post player career being a train wreck.

I personally have him somewhere around Clyde Frazier, IE, a second tier all time great. The list of first tier guys is a very, very short list.

[Bigsmoke]

well obviously, Zeke's shitty personality overshadows his past heroics

[Sarcastic]

I think you are just trying to belittle Malone as part of your agenda in boosting Barkley's stock.

Don't worry. Barkley was better than Malone.

We know but No im just saying the truth. Karl had a great mid range shot and far range even young but had not developed a dominant post game before.

However, Malone definitely played a larger role in boosting Stockton's numbers, than vice versa. Now way Stockton could put up the numbers he did without a finisher like Malone. Isiah never had a finisher like that to play with. All those all stars are nothing compared to having 1 guy who could do what Malone could.

Adrian Dantley was an All Star and MVP candidate: arrived just about his end of prime in the Pistons.

- The Best Pure Scorer of the 80s
- The Best Scoring SF of All Time
- The Best Mid Range Player of All Time prior to Barkley
- A Top 5 Player till the mid 80s.




Stopped reading after this.

First of all Isiah only played with Dantley for 2 1/2 years, and that was at the end of Dantley's career. Second, to call him the best scoring SF or best pure scorer of the 1980s or best mid range player or top 5 player of the mid 1980s is completely comical. Just looking at small forwards from the 1980s: Bird, Gervin, King, and Dominique are all better than Dantley. Bird, Gervin, and King are all better pure scorers. Bird and King have a better mid range game. Top 5 players of the mid 80s are: Kareem, Magic, Bird, Moses Malone, Gervin.

[Bigsmoke]

4:40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VdhH3R8qF8&feature=related

[Da_Realist]

Isiah was VERY inconsistent which is something that's never held against him for some reason. His shooting was very erratic and a double edged sword. He shot 43.8% in the '88-'90 stretch where Pistons made three finals, which is poor by any era's standards but particularly poor by 80s standards. Pistons won many many games in their playoff runs with him putting up poor shooting/overall numbers because those teams were always about "ride whoever is hot". Vinnie and Aguirre had it going on one night? Feed them the ball. Isiah and Dumars have it going on? Give them the ball. That sort of a team structure and their great defense (which Isiah contributed little towards) was what made those teams great. Guy has a lot of clutch performances, was what seems like a great leader, intensely competitive but he had a lot of flaws. The two rings overrate his impact if anything.

He wasn't better than Nash by the way.

Considering the source, I find this highly ironic :oldlol:

[Da_Realist]

This man speaks the truth. Easily the best poster on this forum. I'd take Nash over this dude without any hesitation.

A point guard's main value is running a team's offense which is something Isiah was never elite at. The Pistons won championships because of their defense which Thomas had very little to do with although his defense, when it comes to forcing turnovers and being a pest, doesn't get enough credit. A point guard, generally, can't have a large impact on defense. Just doesn't happen. Gary Payton is the greatest defensive point I've seen yet he didn't have the ability to anchor defenses. Watch how Seattle's DRtg plummets right after Kemp's departure and goes down the drain when Karl leaves (trapping schemes were tremendous).

Thomas was a streak shooter who could get hot at times, had great leadership and will to win which leads people to overrate his impact. He was inefficient and inconsistent which is something people never bring up. He has a career TS% of 51.6 along with a career FG% of 45.2. That is relatively low for a guard from his era where games were generally faster paced although that seems to be more fitting to the Western Conference. He also averaged around four turnovers a game for most of his career yet that is always ignored. Also, Isiah missed a significant amount of time in the 1990-91 season where the Pistons posted a higher ORtg WITHOUT HIM than with him. What does that say about his team's talent, his offensive production and impact on the team?

Whenever I watched the early 1990s Pistons, I thought Dumars was clearly their best player along with Rodman having => impact than Zeke due to his vast edge in rebounding and defense. That seems to be true for the championship winning Pistons as well.

Isiah is a player whose flaws just aren't emphasized enough. People just remember the "good" which there is plenty of such as the great series against Portland in 1990, memorable third quarter explosion against L.A in G6 in 1988, 16 points in 90 seconds against New York etc. But, you can't just look at the good and ignore the negatives that are attached to the player. Otherwise, someone like Allen Iverson is one of the top twenty players ever based on his scoring bursts.

Safe to say, I'd take a bunch of PGs over Isiah "overrated" Thomas.

Wow. Isiah was the best player and the unquestioned leader of that team. He sacrificed his game to help anchor one of the most defensive minded and rebound oriented championship teams to ever play. They had to fight Magic's Lakers and Bird's Celtics for recognition and then hold off Jordan's Bulls. He had a street game that needed to be reeled in from time to time but he was unbelievably clutch and had the heart of a lion. That team never backed down because Isiah never backed down. The Pistons had his personality from the coaches to the last player on the bench. If you want to look at stats and harp on this or that, that's fine. And fair. But I saw Isiah when stats weren't so easily available and he was considered a warrior and easily one of the best players in the game.

Steve Nash? :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

John Stockton was good. Text book good. Put up all the fancy numbers. But Isiah WON. And the 6'1" guard had to beat Larry, Magic and Michael to do it.

[nycelt84]

I think beating the toughest competition in NBA history and having winning records against all of them has to count for something in regards to Isiah.

[Da_Realist]

Isiah's Revenge (Boston 1988 ECF Game 5) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ij3oO7rg9FQ)

A year after throwing away the ball, the game and eventually the series to Larry Bird's Celtics, Isiah Thomas makes amends by leading the Pistons to a pivotal victory over the Celtics in the Boston Garden.

[The Iron Fist]

Hes one of them.

Won back to back championships without a dominant big man.

[The Iron Fist]

Wow. Isiah was the best player and the unquestioned leader of that team. He sacrificed his game to help anchor one of the most defensive minded and rebound oriented championship teams to ever play. They had to fight Magic's Lakers and Bird's Celtics for recognition and then hold off Jordan's Bulls. He had a street game that needed to be reeled in from time to time but he was unbelievably clutch and had the heart of a lion. That team never backed down because Isiah never backed down. The Pistons had his personality from the coaches to the last player on the bench. If you want to look at stats and harp on this or that, that's fine. And fair. But I saw Isiah when stats weren't so easily available and he was considered a warrior and easily one of the best players in the game.

Steve Nash? :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

John Stockton was good. Text book good. Put up all the fancy numbers. But Isiah WON. And the 6'1" guard had to beat Larry, Magic and Michael to do it.
:applause:


Those Detriot teams,

were fun to watch. They did anything and everything to win.

lol Steve Nash. Are people seriously saying Nash was better than Zeke?

I guess those two fraudulent MVP awards have really skewed peoples thinking.

[Da_Realist]

Isiah had IT. Steve Nash doesn't scare anybody. John Stockton didn't. Stockton may have been a better pure point guard (whatever that means), but Isiah was a better, more impactful player. And it speaks to his leadership that it was his feisty personality that fueled those Pistons teams. He went against the grain. While everyone was so busy trying to be the Celtics and Lakers, Isiah went the other way and succeeded against them both. Which says a lot, considering he had such enormous offensive talents. He could have burned a hole in the record books if he had chosen to focus on his scoring abilities instead of winning.

[Da_Realist]

Isiah Thomas vs Chicago 1989 ECF Game 6 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5sCCGcfAZE)

Isiah Thomas outduels Jordan and sends the Bulls home for the summer.

[IGOTGAME]

Isiah Thomas vs Chicago 1989 ECF Game 6 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5sCCGcfAZE)

Isiah Thomas outduels Jordan and sends the Bulls home for the summer.

thats the difference between Isiah and Stockton. Isiah can run a team at an elite level and also duel with the best scorers ever.

[Da_Realist]

Isiah Thomas vs Portland 1990 Finals Game 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hne3s-qsKBc)

Isiah with another incredible 4th quarter performance

[Da_Realist]

Isiah's Revenge (Boston 1988 ECF Game 5) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ij3oO7rg9FQ)

A year after throwing away the ball, the game and eventually the series to Larry Bird's Celtics, Isiah Thomas makes amends by leading the Pistons to a pivotal victory over the Celtics in the Boston Garden.


Isiah Thomas vs Chicago 1989 ECF Game 6 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5sCCGcfAZE)

Isiah Thomas outduels Jordan and sends the Bulls home for the summer.


Isiah Thomas vs Portland 1990 Finals Game 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hne3s-qsKBc)

Isiah with another incredible 4th quarter performance

Isiah Thomas >> John Stockton >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Steve Nash :pimp:

[DatWasNashty]

Wow. Isiah was the best player and the unquestioned leader of that team. He sacrificed his game to help anchor one of the most defensive minded and rebound oriented championship teams to ever play. They had to fight Magic's Lakers and Bird's Celtics for recognition and then hold off Jordan's Bulls. He had a street game that needed to be reeled in from time to time but he was unbelievably clutch and had the heart of a lion. That team never backed down because Isiah never backed down. The Pistons had his personality from the coaches to the last player on the bench. If you want to look at stats and harp on this or that, that's fine. And fair. But I saw Isiah when stats weren't so easily available and he was considered a warrior and easily one of the best players in the game.

Steve Nash? :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

John Stockton was good. Text book good. Put up all the fancy numbers. But Isiah WON. And the 6'1" guard had to beat Larry, Magic and Michael to do it.
This post is classic because it perfectly sums up what me and Fatal9 were talking about.

Will to win? Check.
Leadership? Check.
Competitive spirit? Check.
A few dominant playoff performance? Check.
"It"? Check.

You're selective with your data. I'd love to know where you rank someone like Allen Iverson, who happens to be the SG version (heavily overrated as well) of Isiah Thomas. The same qualities you'll find in Isiah are evident in Iverson save for vocal leadership.

What people ignore is how little (relative to their peers) their individual performances had to do with their team success. Detroit won because of their defense which again Isiah didn't contribute much to. Offense, he could explode on any given night but consistency is something he always lacked. He was often benched in the 4th if Vinnie and Dumars were having better nights.

His production simply didn't live up to the reputation he had and to a lesser extent, still does. Although, a lot more people are realizing how flawed of a player.

Detroit posted a higher ORtg during the games Isiah missed in 1990-91 than in the games Isiah played. That's the biggest insult a point guard can suffer as their primary job is to run a team's offense. I understand Isiah wasn't in his prime but his teammates, coaching, setting etc was the same. Either Isiah wasn't the player he was advertised as or his teammates didn't get enough credit.

Isiah Thomas? :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

Winning, when not used in proper context, is the most overrated thing in all of sports.

[nycelt84]

How can winning ever be overrated in any context in sports when the goal of any game is winning?

[magnax1]

This post is classic because it perfectly sums up what me and Fatal9 were talking about.

Will to win? Check.
Leadership? Check.
Competitive spirit? Check.
A few dominant playoff performance? Check.
"It"? Check.

You're selective with your data. I'd love to know where you rank someone like Allen Iverson, who happens to be the SG version (heavily overrated as well) of Isiah Thomas. The same qualities you'll find in Isiah are evident in Iverson save for vocal leadership.

What people ignore is how little (relative to their peers) their individual performances had to do with their team success. Detroit won because of their defense which again Isiah didn't contribute much to. Offense, he could explode on any given night but consistency is something he always lacked. He was often benched in the 4th if Vinnie and Dumars were having better nights.

His production simply didn't live up to the reputation he had and to a lesser extent, still does. Although, a lot more people are realizing how flawed of a player.

Detroit posted a higher ORtg during the games Isiah missed in 1990-91 than in the games Isiah played. That's the biggest insult a point guard can suffer as their primary job is to run a team's offense. I understand Isiah wasn't in his prime but his teammates, coaching, setting etc was the same. Either Isiah wasn't the player he was advertised as or his teammates didn't get enough credit.

Isiah Thomas? :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

Winning, when not used in proper context, is the most overrated thing in all of sports.
Great post. Isiah in his prime was insanely good, but he wasn't winning championships in his prime. During the championship years Dumars was pretty much Isiah's equal. People over rate late 80's isiah because his team was winning and ignore how good he was during his best years.

[DatWasNashty]

How can winning ever be overrated in any context in sports when the goal of any game is winning?
I think how much a player contributed to the win (or success) is a hell of a lot more important than solely looking at the win. I'll give you an example.

Lets say, hypothetically, Starks hit the gamewinning three in G6 of the 1994 finals. Ewing gets the championship but that championship won't have much impact on his legacy for me because the Knicks would win with Ewing not having a great deal of contribution in that series (he was trash offensively, got dominated by Hakeem on both ends, rebounded well but that had a lot do with Mason and Oakley checking Hakeem).

Yet, now, we'd have people hyping Ewing up with him leading his team to a championship. Ewing, similarly as Isiah, won't have his individual play greatly correlate with team success.

That's why winning has to be viewed under proper context. I could've given the cliche Robert Horry example as well but whatever.

[DatWasNashty]

Great post. Isiah in his prime was insanely good, but he wasn't winning championships in his prime. During the championship years Dumars was pretty much Isiah's equal. People over rate late 80's isiah because his team was winning and ignore how good he was during his best years.
Yeah, very much agree with Dumars being his equal during the championship years. I won't ever call him insanely good because I use that term for the best of the best but his prime (mid 1980s) was a good bit better than his championship years where he seems to have built most of his legacy.

[magnax1]

Yeah, very much agree with Dumars being his equal during the championship years. I won't ever call him insanely good because I use that term for the best of the best but his prime (mid 1980s) was a good bit better than his championship years where he seems to have built most of his legacy.
Well I think during the early mid 80's he was the best of the best, probably the best peak for a point guard ever, or maybe second, buy he's definitely up their with the best.

[Bigsmoke]

Detroit posted a higher ORtg during the games Isiah missed in 1990-91 than in the games Isiah played. That's the biggest insult a point guard can suffer as their primary job is to run a team's offense. I understand Isiah wasn't in his prime but his teammates, coaching, setting etc was the same. Either Isiah wasn't the player he was advertised as or his teammates didn't get enough credit.

Isiah Thomas? :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

Winning, when not used in proper context, is the most overrated thing in all of sports.

and the Jazz had the best record in the NBA in 1998 when John Stockton was 36 years old while only playing in 64 games averaging 12ppg with 8 dishes.

they both played in good teams is just that Isiah was could take over games in the playoffs. Give me an ass whopping to the Blazers than 14 assists per game in the regular season any day of the week. Stocktons played against the Blazers before back in the early 90's... post his stats for me please.

Isiah made the Piston into a hard nose ball club.

[nycelt84]

Patrick Ewing was still the best player on that '94 Knicks team and had led them the entire season. His having a subpar series compared to his previous efforts and Starks winning the series with a 3 pointer would not have changed none of that. Having that championship would have had a huge positive impact on Ewing's legacy especially in NY where the fanbase still awaits a championship.

Winning is the most important thing in any sport whether individual or team. If you're not playing to win you're wasting time. And obviously the public has a much greater appreciation of stars who win than those who fail to do so.

[magnax1]

and the Jazz had the best record in the NBA in 1998 when John Stockton was 36 years old while only playing in 64 games averaging 12ppg with 8 dishes.

they both played in good teams is just that Isiah was could take over games in the playoffs. Give me an ass whopping to the Blazers than 14 assists per game in the regular season any day of the week.

Isiah made the Pistons into a the team that they were back then into a hard nose aggressive ball club.
No, isiah did not make them into one of the best defensive teams ever. He was one of their worst defenders on the team. Rodman/Dumars/Laimbeer made the team into what it was, a great defensive teams that beat more talented teams because they played tough, gritty team defense.

[DetroitPiston]

Because this retarded thread is still going on:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4843580&postcount=48

[Bigsmoke]

How can winning ever be overrated in any context in sports when the goal of any game is winning?

good question

[Bigsmoke]

No, isiah did not make them into one of the best defensive teams ever. He was one of their worst defenders on the team. Rodman/Dumars/Laimbeer made the team into what it was, a great defensive teams that beat more talented teams because they played tough, gritty team defense.

But i'm saying he help them become a more of a gritty team which contribute to playing good defense.

but i dont know. I could see why Stockton is higher on the All Time list because of work he put in for numerous of years more than him being as dominate as Thomas was in his prime

[magnax1]

But i'm saying he help them become a more of a gritty team which contribute to playing good defense.

but i dont know. I could see why Stockton is higher on the All Time list because of work he put in for numerous of years more than him being as dominate as Thomas was in his prime
Either way, Isiah and Stockton were both top 3 all time prime point guards (unless you count Oscar as a point) Stockton definitely is higher all time, but Peak Isiah was a bit better to me. Stockton was the better passer, and defender by a large margin, but Isiah probably created more offense overall with his passing and scoring combined. Anyway you look at it, it's close.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I think how much a player contributed to the win (or success) is a hell of a lot more important than solely looking at the win. I'll give you an example.

Lets say, hypothetically, Starks hit the gamewinning three in G6 of the 1994 finals. Ewing gets the championship but that championship won't have much impact on his legacy for me because the Knicks would win with Ewing not having a great deal of contribution in that series (he was trash offensively, got dominated by Hakeem on both ends, rebounded well but that had a lot do with Mason and Oakley checking Hakeem).

Yet, now, we'd have people hyping Ewing up with him leading his team to a championship. Ewing, similarly as Isiah, won't have his individual play greatly correlate with team success.

That's why winning has to be viewed under proper context. I could've given the cliche Robert Horry example as well but whatever.

I get what you're saying, but as far as the Ewing example, I think he should've still deserved credit for leading his team to a title because he was clearly the best player on that team and more of a force than '89 or '90 Isiah, IMO.

He did have a solid cast with Starks who was a borderline all-star and a good playmaker and defender who could light it up when his jumper was on, and tough defensive-minded role players like Harper, Mason and Oakley. But it wasn't like it wasn't all-time great cast.

Like Detroit, a big reason why that team was a contender was defense, however unlike Isiah, Ewing was the primary reason for that. Definitely not the only reason, but their best defensive player.

And Ewing did have quite a few big games throughout that '94 run, and in some key parts of series.

36/14 and 5 blocks to close out the Nets
29/9/3/3 on 9/12 shooting to go up 2-0 on the Bulls
18/17/6 in game 7 vs the Bulls
28/11/4 with 6 blocks to open up the ECF vs Indiana
32/13/3/3 to go up 2-0 in the ECF
24/22/7/5 in game 7 vs Indiana
25/12 with a then record-tying 8 blocks in game 5 of the finals to go up 3-2

He wasn't consistently efficient offensively anymore like he was around 1990, probably due to him relying more on his jumper, shooting farther out and not having as much athleticism, but his defense was a constant and he was still a solid number 1 option and by far the Knicks most consistent offensive player. And the Knicks defensive rating of 98.2 was easily the best in the league.

Where I think the problem would have occurred if Starks had made the jumper would be if some used that title to say Ewing was better than Hakeem which would be ridiculous because Hakeem was obviously the better player.

As far as the finals, well Hakeem did a very good job guarding Ewing, Patrick drifted out further and further and struggled offensively. I thought Ewing did a solid job on Hakeem, but from what I remember, Mason gave Hakeem the most problems, and of course, Hakeem faced a lot of double/triple teams. Hakeem definitely won the match up and was easily the better player at the time regardless of the outcome of the series.

But I'll admit, I'm a bit biased when it comes to Ewing.

Back to Isiah, well when I watch Nash, I get the impression that he's a better passer and better at finding his teammates as well as a much better shooter who could score more if he felt like it. I have no questions over Steve's ability in the clutch or ability to raise his game in the playoffs either.

I give Isiah credit for winning championships, but I don't think they should be viewed in the same way that Hakeem, Jordan, Kareem, Shaq, Bird ect. are as far as performance and role on title teams.

[necya]

after reading those 9 pages :
2 unforforgettable players, 2 reel stars...
hard to compare, they have different roles for their team.
i can't forget isiah explosiveness, and how Stockton was good at play making.

the pistons could win without a good Thomas as they had a terrible squad. if Stockton didn't play well, the jazz would lose. so i think it's stupid to say Isiah has lead his team to 2 titles, come on Lambeer, Dantley then Aguirre, Dumars, Johnson, Salley, Mahorn, Edwards, Rodman after... this team had no flaws.

i would take Stockton for some reasons :
he is waaaayyyyy smarter than Isiah (i always laugh when i watch him threw the ball like a rookie in 87 ECF G5) without his athletism isiah is not impressive, that's why an intelligent player is always the better choice.
off ball, Isiah was like useless. Stockton could teach to each centers of today how to set a reel screen.

anyway, back in the days, when Isiah decided to play with you, players just prayed that the shot clock was running down !:D

[magnax1]

I get what you're saying, but as far as the Ewing example, I think he should've still deserved credit for leading his team to a title because he was clearly the best player on that team and more of a force than '89 or '90 Isiah, IMO.
I think you misunderstood what he's saying. Just because a player win's doesn't mean he deserves credit for anything. Starks hits that game winner, and Ewing wins people would drop Hakeem, even though he dominated Ewing, and Raise Ewing even though he played like crap. Players should be rated on how well they play, not on whether their teams win or not.
Obviously Ewing was great, but that should already be taken into consideration, whether he wins a championships or not.

[DatWasNashty]

I get what you're saying, but as far as the Ewing example, I think he should've still deserved credit for leading his team to a title because he was clearly the best player on that team and more of a force than '89 or '90 Isiah, IMO.

He did have a solid cast with Starks who was a borderline all-star and a good playmaker and defender who could light it up when his jumper was on, and tough defensive-minded role players like Harper, Mason and Oakley. But it wasn't like it wasn't all-time great cast.

Like Detroit, a big reason why that team was a contender was defense, however unlike Isiah, Ewing was the primary reason for that. Definitely not the only reason, but their best defensive player.

And Ewing did have quite a few big games throughout that '94 run, and in some key parts of series.

36/14 and 5 blocks to close out the Nets
29/9/3/3 on 9/12 shooting to go up 2-0 on the Bulls
18/17/6 in game 7 vs the Bulls
28/11/4 with 6 blocks to open up the ECF vs Indiana
32/13/3/3 to go up 2-0 in the ECF
24/22/7/5 in game 7 vs Indiana
25/12 with a then record-tying 8 blocks in game 5 of the finals to go up 3-2

He wasn't consistently efficient offensively anymore like he was around 1990, probably due to him relying more on his jumper, shooting farther out and not having as much athleticism, but his defense was a constant and he was still a solid number 1 option and by far the Knicks most consistent offensive player. And the Knicks defensive rating of 98.2 was easily the best in the league.

Where I think the problem would have occurred if Starks had made the jumper would be if some used that title to say Ewing was better than Hakeem which would be ridiculous because Hakeem was obviously the better player.

As far as the finals, well Hakeem did a very good job guarding Ewing, Patrick drifted out further and further and struggled offensively. I thought Ewing did a solid job on Hakeem, but from what I remember, Mason gave Hakeem the most problems, and of course, Hakeem faced a lot of double/triple teams. Hakeem definitely won the match up and was easily the better player at the time regardless of the outcome of the series.

But I'll admit, I'm a bit biased when it comes to Ewing.

Back to Isiah, well when I watch Nash, I get the impression that he's a better passer and better at finding his teammates as well as a much better shooter who could score more if he felt like it. I have no questions over Steve's ability in the clutch or ability to raise his game in the playoffs either.

I give Isiah credit for winning championships, but I don't think they should be viewed in the same way that Hakeem, Jordan, Kareem, Shaq, Bird ect. are as far as performance and role on title teams.
Oh, I definitely agree with everything but I think you misunderstood my point a bit. The crux of my argument was how well a player plays and how much his impact correlates with the team's success.


I think you misunderstood what he's saying. Just because a player win's doesn't mean he deserves credit for anything. Starks hits that game winner, and Ewing wins people would drop Hakeem, even though he dominated Ewing, and Raise Ewing even though he played like crap. Players should be rated on how well they play, not on whether their teams win or not.
Obviously Ewing was great, but that should already be taken into consideration, whether he wins a championships or not.
^

[ShaqAttack3234]

Oh, I definitely agree with everything but I think you misunderstood my point a bit. The crux of my argument was how well a player plays and how much his impact correlates with the team's success.
^

Yeah, basically, what you're saying is what I'm saying which is even if Starks makes that jumper, Hakeem was still the better player and he had still outplayed Ewing in that series. I was just saying that Ewing would still deserve credit for leading his team to a title(and even just getting there), but it would mean nothing as far as the Ewing vs Hakeem debate.

And really the Starks jumper shouldn't have affected Ewing's legacy either way, Ewing would've performed at the exact same level, but Ewing's career would look a lot better to some people based on what Starks did.

[Da_Realist]

This post is classic because it perfectly sums up what me and Fatal9 were talking about.

Will to win? Check.
Leadership? Check.
Competitive spirit? Check.
A few dominant playoff performance? Check.
"It"? Check.

You're selective with your data. I'd love to know where you rank someone like Allen Iverson, who happens to be the SG version (heavily overrated as well) of Isiah Thomas. The same qualities you'll find in Isiah are evident in Iverson save for vocal leadership.

What people ignore is how little (relative to their peers) their individual performances had to do with their team success. Detroit won because of their defense which again Isiah didn't contribute much to. Offense, he could explode on any given night but consistency is something he always lacked. He was often benched in the 4th if Vinnie and Dumars were having better nights.

His production simply didn't live up to the reputation he had and to a lesser extent, still does. Although, a lot more people are realizing how flawed of a player.

Detroit posted a higher ORtg during the games Isiah missed in 1990-91 than in the games Isiah played. That's the biggest insult a point guard can suffer as their primary job is to run a team's offense. I understand Isiah wasn't in his prime but his teammates, coaching, setting etc was the same. Either Isiah wasn't the player he was advertised as or his teammates didn't get enough credit.

Isiah Thomas? :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

Winning, when not used in proper context, is the most overrated thing in all of sports.



The three greatest passers that ever lived to play this game is Bob Cousy, Magic Johnson and Isiah Thomas -- Red Auerbach (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5SlrwpMRSg)

To be fair, I'm sure Red didn't have a chance to check the ORtg before he made this statement :hammerhead:

Show me where Steve Nash has any playoff performance like the games I listed for Isiah. Isiah was the leader of those Pistons teams and deserves whatever credit he gets. Stepped up against Boston. Stepped up against Chicago. Stepped up against LA. Stepped up in the Finals. Clutch playoff performer. What else do you want him to do??? Lead some obscure statistic on basketball-reference? We don't even know what that is until it shows up on basketball-reference. Can't see what that is watching the game.

And Isiah didn't play defense? What was he doing out there then? Was he DPOY caliber? No. But that doesn't mean he didn't play defense. Watch this video and tell me he didn't play defense. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hne3s-qsKBc Most of his games are like that. He put in the effort. He played a hell of a lot better defense than Steve Nash, who never puts in any effort defensively.

And he was a leader. There is no stat in basketball-reference that can measure that. If the game was close, Isiah scared you. He could go to another level and lead his team to a win. At home or on the road. In the regular season or the playoffs. Who the hell does Steve Nash scare? Nobody. He can make a play here and there, but he did not put that fear in you like Isiah did.

[Niquesports]

Either way, Isiah and Stockton were both top 3 all time prime point guards (unless you count Oscar as a point) Stockton definitely is higher all time, but Peak Isiah was a bit better to me. Stockton was the better passer, and defender by a large margin, but Isiah probably created more offense overall with his passing and scoring combined. Anyway you look at it, it's close.
You can flip it toss it read it upside down Thomas was better without question. Its funny to me how people like to place the blame on Malone for the jazz never winning. But if Thomas was on that jazz team it would have been him taking over like he did with the pistons and the jazz would have 1 2 maybe 3 rings.

[Niquesports]

after reading those 9 pages :
2 unforforgettable players, 2 reel stars...
hard to compare, they have different roles for their team.
i can't forget isiah explosiveness, and how Stockton was good at play making.

the pistons could win without a good Thomas as they had a terrible squad. if Stockton didn't play well, the jazz would lose. so i think it's stupid to say Isiah has lead his team to 2 titles, come on Lambeer, Dantley then Aguirre, Dumars, Johnson, Salley, Mahorn, Edwards, Rodman after... this team had no flaws.

i would take Stockton for some reasons :
he is waaaayyyyy smarter than Isiah (i always laugh when i watch him threw the ball like a rookie in 87 ECF G5) without his athletism isiah is not impressive, that's why an intelligent player is always the better choice.
off ball, Isiah was like useless. Stockton could teach to each centers of today how to set a reel screen.

anyway, back in the days, when Isiah decided to play with you, players just prayed that the shot clock was running down !:D


This is the biggest mistake many making in comparing the 2. Thomas was the much smarter ball player . Which is why many times in big games the ball was in isiah hands.However with the jazz Stockton was giving the ball to Malone which is why he gets tagged a choker.Thomas knew when the team needed him to be an offence force a passer or his great Defense. Stockton never turned it up for the Jazz. You never see him go on a 20 pt 4th qt run when many times thats what the jazz needed. Next to Magic and Oscar Isiah was the most complete Offensive PG in the history of the Game.

You say the Pistons could win without Thomas ? Sure and the jazz could win without Stockton but neither team would win a championship with out either player. The only difference is that the Pistons won with Thomas the jazz never won with Stockton.But to say the Pistons were stacked is just bias talk. Dumars was a solid player but no way near the player Malone was. BIg Bill was just a dirty force in the middle nothing more Rodman was still just a young buck coming off the bench without Thomas this is a .500 team.What seperates Magic,Jordan,Bird from other players is that ability to turn in a impossible game when their team needed it. Thomas could do that with the best of them Stockton couldn't.Which is why isiah is a top 10 player and Stockton is a top 20-25 player.

[Round Mound]

Isiah Thomas is one of the most overrated players of all time. IMO

[Round Mound]

You can flip it toss it read it upside down Thomas was better without question. Its funny to me how people like to place the blame on Malone for the jazz never winning. But if Thomas was on that jazz team it would have been him taking over like he did with the pistons and the jazz would have 1 2 maybe 3 rings.

:facepalm

[Da_Realist]

The three greatest passers that ever lived to play this game is Bob Cousy, Magic Johnson and Isiah Thomas -- Red Auerbach (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5SlrwpMRSg)

To be fair, I'm sure Red didn't have a chance to check the ORtg before he made this statement :hammerhead:

Show me where Steve Nash has any playoff performance like the games I listed for Isiah. Isiah was the leader of those Pistons teams and deserves whatever credit he gets. Stepped up against Boston. Stepped up against Chicago. Stepped up against LA. Stepped up in the Finals. Clutch playoff performer. What else do you want him to do??? Lead some obscure statistic on basketball-reference? We don't even know what that is until it shows up on basketball-reference. Can't see what that is watching the game.

And Isiah didn't play defense? What was he doing out there then? Was he DPOY caliber? No. But that doesn't mean he didn't play defense. Watch this video and tell me he didn't play defense. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hne3s-qsKBc Most of his games are like that. He put in the effort. He played a hell of a lot better defense than Steve Nash, who never puts in any effort defensively.

And he was a leader. There is no stat in basketball-reference that can measure that. If the game was close, Isiah scared you. He could go to another level and lead his team to a win. At home or on the road. In the regular season or the playoffs. Who the hell does Steve Nash scare? Nobody. He can make a play here and there, but he did not put that fear in you like Isiah did.

Another thing I forgot to mention... Judging what the Pistons team did in 91 without Isiah is about as erroneous as judging what the Bulls did without Jordan in 94. Isiah helped create a culture in Detroit that all those players were weened on. Aguirre was an offensive cancer in Dallas that couldn't even spell defense. When he came to Detroit, Isiah sat him down and told him he would need to change his game to match what the Pistons did. Hustle, play defense, compete. Get your shots when your number is called and support the guy replacing you off the bench. No bitching about shots. No complaining about minutes. No whining about any lack of attention. It was Isiah that established that everyone needs to sacrifice for the better of the team. Isiah was helping the team when he willingly accepted going to the bench if another player was feeling it. How could Aguirre, Rodman, Dumars or Vinnie Johnson complain about minutes or shots when the leader of that team set such an example??? They were all unselfish, hard-nosed and played together on both offense and defense. Isiah set that up. 1991 shouldn't be used against him, it should be used to support him. He made that team great. He made that team believe in themselves. He made that team expect to win any game that was close.

In other words, Isiah taught them how to fish.

Speaking of 91... check out the overtime in Game 6 1st Round vs the Boston Celtics. When Detroit needed a guy to step up to close out a game, it was always Isiah.

[mrhoopfan]

You can argue that Jason Kidd is as good as John Stockton.........seriously

[Niquesports]

Isiah Thomas is one of the most overrated players of all time. IMO

Every one has an opinion I feel Barkley is overrated a very bad teammate never put in the work to get better just depended on his athletic ability. Pippen hated that he was use to Jordan giving 110%. So IYO what makes isiah overrated. No one is calling him a GOAT.

[Niquesports]

Another thing I forgot to mention... Judging what the Pistons team did in 91 without Isiah is about as erroneous as judging what the Bulls did without Jordan in 94. Isiah helped create a culture in Detroit that all those players were weened on. Aguirre was an offensive cancer in Dallas that couldn't even spell defense. When he came to Detroit, Isiah sat him down and told him he would need to change his game to match what the Pistons did. Hustle, play defense, compete. Get your shots when your number is called and support the guy replacing you off the bench. No bitching about shots. No complaining about minutes. No whining about any lack of attention. It was Isiah that established that everyone needs to sacrifice for the better of the team. Isiah was helping the team when he willingly accepted going to the bench if another player was feeling it. How could Aguirre, Rodman, Dumars or Vinnie Johnson complain about minutes or shots when the leader of that team set such an example??? They were all unselfish, hard-nosed and played together on both offense and defense. Isiah set that up. 1991 shouldn't be used against him, it should be used to support him. He made that team great. He made that team believe in themselves. He made that team expect to win any game that was close.

In other words, Isiah taught them how to fish.

Speaking of 91... check out the overtime in Game 6 1st Round vs the Boston Celtics. When Detroit needed a guy to step up to close out a game, it was always Isiah.


This is what most Isiah hates just dont understand. ITs called leadership. Isiah if he wanted to could have avg 30 ppg he could have even had 10-15 apg . Tell me how good was Big Bill in Clev ? Who ever heard of Rodman or Dumars coming out of college? John Sally I mean really. It might have been his worst moment in his career but him walking off the court after losing to the Bulls look how many teammates followed him even when he is wrong his teammates were behind him, Stockton didnt have that kinda leadership.

[Bigsmoke]

Another thing I forgot to mention... Judging what the Pistons team did in 91 without Isiah is about as erroneous as judging what the Bulls did without Jordan in 94. Isiah helped create a culture in Detroit that all those players were weened on. Aguirre was an offensive cancer in Dallas that couldn't even spell defense. When he came to Detroit, Isiah sat him down and told him he would need to change his game to match what the Pistons did. Hustle, play defense, compete. Get your shots when your number is called and support the guy replacing you off the bench. No bitching about shots. No complaining about minutes. No whining about any lack of attention. It was Isiah that established that everyone needs to sacrifice for the better of the team. Isiah was helping the team when he willingly accepted going to the bench if another player was feeling it. How could Aguirre, Rodman, Dumars or Vinnie Johnson complain about minutes or shots when the leader of that team set such an example??? They were all unselfish, hard-nosed and played together on both offense and defense. Isiah set that up. 1991 shouldn't be used against him, it should be used to support him. He made that team great. He made that team believe in themselves. He made that team expect to win any game that was close.

In other words, Isiah taught them how to fish.

Speaking of 91... check out the overtime in Game 6 1st Round vs the Boston Celtics. When Detroit needed a guy to step up to close out a game, it was always Isiah.


food for thought :pimp:

[Da_Realist]

It might have been his worst moment in his career but him walking off the court after losing to the Bulls look how many teammates followed him even when he is wrong his teammates were behind him, Stockton didnt have that kinda leadership.

Great point :applause:

[Da_Realist]

Every one has an opinion I feel Barkley is overrated a very bad teammate never put in the work to get better just depended on his athletic ability. Pippen hated that he was use to Jordan giving 110%. So IYO what makes isiah overrated. No one is calling him a GOAT.

EXACTLY. I never understood how someone that respects Pippen so much is so in love with Barkley. Barkley was 90% talent, 10% work. Pippen was 10% talent, 90% work.

Look at this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1fpPYTedt4

[Da_Realist]

Another thing I forgot to mention... Judging what the Pistons team did in 91 without Isiah is about as erroneous as judging what the Bulls did without Jordan in 94. Isiah helped create a culture in Detroit that all those players were weened on. Aguirre was an offensive cancer in Dallas that couldn't even spell defense. When he came to Detroit, Isiah sat him down and told him he would need to change his game to match what the Pistons did. Hustle, play defense, compete. Get your shots when your number is called and support the guy replacing you off the bench. No bitching about shots. No complaining about minutes. No whining about any lack of attention. It was Isiah that established that everyone needs to sacrifice for the better of the team. Isiah was helping the team when he willingly accepted going to the bench if another player was feeling it. How could Aguirre, Rodman, Dumars or Vinnie Johnson complain about minutes or shots when the leader of that team set such an example??? They were all unselfish, hard-nosed and played together on both offense and defense. Isiah set that up. 1991 shouldn't be used against him, it should be used to support him. He made that team great. He made that team believe in themselves. He made that team expect to win any game that was close.

In other words, Isiah taught them how to fish.

Speaking of 91... check out the overtime in Game 6 1st Round vs the Boston Celtics. When Detroit needed a guy to step up to close out a game, it was always Isiah.

Mark Aquirre talks about sacrifice. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LwH9T5XNXU) He talks about how he went to Isiah and told him he thinks Dennis Rodman should start.