Where does Manny Pacquiao rank all-time?

[1987_Lakers]

Question for boxing fans, where does Pacquiao rank all-time? I heard one of the announcers last night say that pac man is the greatest offensive fighter he has ever seen.

[DonDadda59]

Hard to say since Boxing as an organized/codified sport goes back to the mid 1800s (specifically Queensbury Rules) and there's been a LOT of great fighters. That being said, Manny has done things that no fighter has ever done- 8 weight divisional titles, 4 lineal titles, and continues to defy conventional boxing theory and practice by just outright dominating much bigger opponents. As an offensive fighter, he ranks at the very top with a select few- his combination of speed, power, angles, movement, foot speed, etc has rarely (if ever) been seen before.

And he's only 31, still in his prime, and has 2-3 more fights left in him where he can continue to cement his legacy.

Off the top of my head, right now I'd say he's top 10-15. But a lot of Historians and experts (ie, Bert Sugar, Emmanuel Steward) have Pacquiao in their top 5 already.

[raiderfan19]

Hard to say since Boxing as an organized/codified sport goes back to the mid 1800s (specifically Queensbury Rules) and there's been a LOT of great fighters. That being said, Manny has done things that no fighter has ever done- 8 weight divisional titles, 4 lineal titles, and continues to defy conventional boxing theory and practice by just outright dominating much bigger opponents. As an offensive fighter, he ranks at the very top with a select few- his combination of speed, power, angles, movement, foot speed, etc has rarely (if ever) been seen before.

And he's only 31, still in his prime, and has 2-3 more fights left in him where he can continue to cement his legacy.

Off the top of my head, right now I'd say he's top 10-15. But a lot of Historians and experts (ie, Bert Sugar, Emmanuel Steward) have Pacquiao in their top 5 already.
Having him top 5 would be REALLY REALLY hard to justify. Starting at the top, SRR is clearly number 1. Joe Louis, Ali, Henry Armstrong, Willie Pep, SRL, Roberto Duran, Jack Johnson and benny leonard. Really tough to see how you rank him above any of those guys. Also, whether the pac fans want to admit it or not Floyd>Manny in an all time list. Hes somewhere around 15-20.

[1987_Lakers]

Bert Sugar has Pacquiao in the top 5?

[DonDadda59]

Having him top 5 would be REALLY REALLY hard to justify. Starting at the top, SRR is clearly number 1. Joe Louis, Ali, Henry Armstrong, Willie Pep, SRL, Roberto Duran, Jack Johnson and benny leonard. Really tough to see how you rank him above any of those guys. Also, whether the pac fans want to admit it or not Floyd>Manny in an all time list. Hes somewhere around 15-20.

I never personally put him in the top 5, just saying that many experts and historians who are great authorities on the subject do. And how can you talk about not being to justify something and then type out the bold? :oldlol:

How the hell is Floyd even remotely close to Manny of the ATG list? What has he done or accomplished that trumps what Pacquiao has? :confusedshrug:

[raiderfan19]

I never personally put him in the top 5, just saying that many experts and historians who are great authorities on the subject do. And how can you talk about not being to justify something and then type out the bold? :oldlol:

How the hell is Floyd even remotely close to Manny of the ATG list? What has he done or accomplished that trumps what Pacquiao has? :confusedshrug:
They have extremely similar career accomplishments, except manny has been knocked out twice while Floyd is undefeated. That does matter. Dont get me wrong, the 0 isnt the end of any argument(if it was andre berto would be an atg and rocky marciano would be the goat HW) but it is a factor and if you dont have a clearly superior resume, the guy with the 0 gets the nod. Pac doesn't have a clearly superior resume.

[DonDadda59]

They have extremely similar career accomplishments, except manny has been knocked out twice while Floyd is undefeated. That does matter. Dont get me wrong, the 0 isnt the end of any argument but it is a factor and if you dont have a clearly superior resume, the guy with the 0 gets the nod. Pac doesn't have a clearly superior resume.

Joe Calzaghe (46-0) is the best fighter of this generation and Rocky Marciano (49-0) is the greatest HW of all time by that argument :oldlol:

Their career accomplishments are in no way similar with the exception of Manny taking out common opponents in a fraction of the time. F*ck outta here with that.

[raiderfan19]

Joe Calzaghe (46-0) is the best fighter of this generation and Rocky Marciano (49-0) is the greatest HW of all time by that argument :oldlol:

Their career accomplishments are in no way similar with the exception of Manny taking out common opponents in a fraction of the time. F*ck outta here with that.
Dont be an ass, I specifically said the 0 isnt the end all be all. Both have moved up quite a bit in weight, both have beaten several of the same opponents and both have been dominant. What exactly would you list as manny achievements that floyd doesnt have anything similar to other than the number of weight classes hes won a title in?

[DonDadda59]

Dont be an ass, I specifically said the 0 isnt the end all be all. Both have moved up quite a bit in weight, both have beaten several of the same opponents and both have been dominant. What exactly would you list as manny achievements that floyd doesnt have anything similar to other than the number of weight classes hes won a title in?

Quality of opponents (could've retired as a top 50 ATG after beating Morales, Barrera, Marquez, etc in '06), lineal championships (most all time), and of course conquering unprecedented weight challenges.

[raiderfan19]

Quality of opponents (could've retired as a top 50 ATG after beating Morales, Barrera, Marquez, etc in '06), lineal championships (most all time), and of course conquering unprecedented weight challenges.
Floyd beat marquez, Mosley, Jose Luis Castillo, Diego Corrales, and Zab Judah among others. You can obviously make the argument for manny's opponents being slightly better because Morales and Barrera are both borderline ATGs themselves but the myth that floyd hasnt fought top competition is just that, a myth.

[rezznor]

pac has the edge over floyd in breaking opponent faces :D

[raiderfan19]

pac has the edge over floyd in breaking opponent faces :D
He also has the edge in having his face broken ;)

[rezznor]

He also has the edge in having his face broken ;)
:oldlol:

[DonDadda59]

Floyd beat marquez, Mosley, Jose Luis Castillo, Diego Corrales, and Zab Judah among others. You can obviously make the argument for manny's opponents being slightly better because Morales and Barrera are both borderline ATGs themselves but the myth that floyd hasnt fought top competition is just that, a myth.

Call it a myth, call it whatever you want. Pacquiao's quality of opponents>Floyd's and when you factor in Manny's history-setting accomplishments, then it's not really a debate. Also, who's to say Manny won't go after that 9th divisional/5th lineal title against the winner of Williams-Martinez? He still wants to fight 2-3 more times and Floyd's career is basically over IMO, so the wide gap between them will just grow even further.

[raiderfan19]

Call it a myth, call it whatever you want. Pacquiao's quality of opponents>Floyd's and when you factor in Manny's history-setting accomplishments, then it's not really a debate. Also, who's to say Manny won't go after that 9th divisional/5th lineal title against the winner of Williams-Martinez? He still wants to fight 2-3 more times and Floyd's career is basically over IMO, so the wide gap between them will just grow even further.
IF he beats williams/martinez then that would certainly be something else to consider(and lets be real he has 7 titles, the one from last night is a joke even in todays era of joke belts) But you cant give him credit for that yet, nor can you say floyds career is over. Saying whos to say manny wont beat the pwill/martinez winner is the same thing as me saying whos to say floyd doesnt beat manny next year which would end all argument as to where they rank relative to each other and is much more likely imo then manny beating pwill/martinez for the 160 title(for it to be for the 160 title its got to be at at least 155 even as the catch weight and i dont think manny does that.

[DonDadda59]

IF he beats williams/martinez then that would certainly be something else to consider(and lets be real he has 7 titles, the one from last night is a joke even in todays era of joke belts) But you cant give him credit for that yet, nor can you say floyds career is over. Saying whos to say manny wont beat the pwill/martinez winner is the same thing as me saying whos to say floyd doesnt beat manny next year which would end all argument as to where they rank relative to each other and is much more likely imo then manny beating pwill/martinez for the 160 title(for it to be for the 160 title its got to be at at least 155 even as the catch weight and i dont think manny does that.

Think about it- it's pretty much definitive that Pac-Floyd won't happen in the Spring because Floyd skipped his court date and his arraignment was rescheduled to January 24 of next year (same day as Roger). So that means the trial will take up the Spring/Summer and if Floyd avoids jail time, the earliest he can fight would be Fall and he won't jump in the ring with Manny after being inactive for more than a year and 1/2 (won't jump in the ring with him in general :oldlol: ). He'll want a tune-up, so the earliest the fight could happen would be Spring of '12 when Floyd is 34, will have been very inactive, and no one will care at that point. Then you have to factor in the high probability that his trainer is serving time again and there's too many reasons why we won't see that fight next year or ever for that matter.

And Pacquiao/Williams=Pacquiao/Margarito=Pacquiao/DLH. Paul says he can make 147 still, so a 155-157 catchweight for the lineal MW crown should be no issue, especially since he's already fighting for it at 157. And if Sergio wins, there's another quality fight and opponent. He offered Manny/Floyd/Angulo a fight for his championship at 155 btw, so that wouldn't be an issue. There's really not many quality opponents or challenges left for Pac and Roach/Arum have both said they would wait to see how Manny does against the much bigger Margarito to decide if fighting Williams would be a good matchup. Tony's broken face and an easy night for Pac says they should go for more history.

[raiderfan19]

Think about it- it's pretty much definitive that Pac-Floyd won't happen in the Spring because Floyd skipped his court date and his arraignment was rescheduled to January 24 of next year (same day as Roger). So that means the trial will take up the Spring/Summer and if Floyd avoids jail time, the earliest he can fight would be Fall and he won't jump in the ring with Manny after being inactive for more than a year and 1/2 (won't jump in the ring with him in general :oldlol: ). He'll want a tune-up, so the earliest the fight could happen would be Spring of '12 when Floyd is 34, will have been very inactive, and no one will care at that point. Then you have to factor in the high probability that his trainer is serving time again and there's too many reasons why we won't see that fight next year or ever for that matter.

And Pacquiao/Williams=Pacquiao/Margarito=Pacquiao/DLH. Paul says he can make 147 still, so a 155-157 catchweight for the lineal MW crown should be no issue, especially since he's already fighting for it at 157. And if Sergio wins, there's another quality fight and opponent. He offered Manny/Floyd/Angulo a fight for his championship at 155 btw, so that wouldn't be an issue. There's really not many quality opponents or challenges left for Pac and Roach/Arum have both said they would wait to see how Manny does against the much bigger Margarito to decide if fighting Williams would be a good matchup. Tony's broken face and an easy night for Pac says they should go for more history.
Im not saying that they wouldnt fight at 155, im saying pac i dont think pac would. And he cant get it lower than that and still have it get him the 160 title.

[the GIBBET]

I'm not a boxing historian so I can't comment on all-time lists, but since I have watched Pacquiao and Mayweather fight, I'll add this to that particular sub-topic:

Pac is clearly the better fighter. Emphasis on the word 'fighter.' Mayweather might shuffle and dodge and perform peripheral technical tasks better than Manny. But Pac's aggressiveness, strength, and chin given how much size he usually gives up, are staggering. I've wondered myself if there isn't something to the doping thing Floyd has insinuated. If Pac is totally clean, he is an outright beaaaaast.

[DonDadda59]

Im not saying that they wouldnt fight at 155, im saying pac i dont think pac would. And he cant get it lower than that and still have it get him the 160 title.

I don't see why not. Pac came in at 144.6 on the scale, 148 in the ring against a tough, much bigger opponent who was 150 on the scale and 165 in the ring. Paul Williams rehydrates to 162 at the most and is no where near as strong as Margarito and if he took the same beating Tony did, he would be out in the middle rounds. Martinez is trickier because he's bigger and would rehydrate more and is a better fighter overall than Paul (or at the least I think he would present Manny more problems). But Pac can come in at 145-147, rehydrate to 150 and be good to go.

Roach already said this is an option for their next fight. But we'll just have to wait and see how next week's MW championship fight goes, how Marquez-Katsidis pans out, and Mosley's situation then we'll have a better idea of what the Spring will look like for Manny.

[JellyBean]

I would put him among the greats. I can't say that he is better than Sugar Ray Robinson or Leonard. Ali, Tyson, Hearns or Hagler. Alexis Arguello or Julio Cesar Chavez. How about Aaron Pryor or Roberto Duran. Pac is among the greats of all-time.

[hateraid]

I think another thing to add to the legacies of the 2 fighters is that Floyd has a reputation of ducking quality opponents.

[raiderfan19]

I think another thing to add to the legacies of the 2 fighters is that Floyd has a reputation of ducking quality opponents.
Again thats more myth than fact. That would be the equivalent of me saying that manny has a rep for taking performancer enhancers... Neither statement is true(though to be fair floyd does have more of a rep as a ducker) I have a question for you Don, where would you rank floyd all time(roughly speaking).

[Zombles]

I would put him among the greats. I can't say that he is better than Sugar Ray Robinson or Leonard. Ali, Tyson, Hearns or Hagler. Alexis Arguello or Julio Cesar Chavez. How about Aaron Pryor or Roberto Duran. Pac is among the greats of all-time.

I'd put Pac over Leonard, Tyson, Hearns, and Hagler at this point.

Can't put him above Duran or SRR, not 100% Ali deserves the nod over him though. Have to think on that one.

Manny can't go down as the GOAT unless he beats PBF and a couple other names in the higher classes like Williams. Even then, to dethrone Sugar Ray Robinson :confusedshrug:

unlikely. my guess is he finishes at the bottom of the top 10, top 5 if he beats Floyd. right now he's hanging out in the teens.

[IGOTGAME]

I'd put Pac over Leonard, Tyson, Hearns, and Hagler at this point.

Can't put him above Duran or SRR, not 100% Ali deserves the nod over him though. Have to think on that one.

Manny can't go down as the GOAT unless he beats PBF and a couple other names in the higher classes like Williams. Even then, to dethrone Sugar Ray Robinson :confusedshrug:

unlikely. my guess is he finishes at the bottom of the top 10, top 5 if he beats Floyd. right now he's hanging out in the teens.
and if Floyd totally tears him apart. Does that push him down the list because that would mean guys like whither would do the same.

[Tarik One]

You guys are nuts. Pac is NOT better than Leonard

I can list a bunch of cats who are better fighters than Manny

147 and below:

Leonard, Hearns, Armstrong, Robinson, Duran, Pep, Lamotta, Archie Moore, Whitaker, I can go on and on.

I've seen many bouts of these fighters and they'll all handle Manny quite effectively.

[IGOTGAME]

You guys are nuts. Pac is NOT better than Leonard

I can list a bunch of cats who are better fighters than Manny

147 and below:

Leonard, Hearns, Armstrong, Robinson, Duran, Pep, Lamotta, Archie Moore, Whitaker, I can go on and on.

I've seen many bouts of these fighters and they'll all handle Manny quite effectively.
Thank you. Someone with some since

[Zombles]

I view the all-time list as what the boxer accomplished, not necessarily who would beat who. I think some boxers today would beat Sugar Ray Robinson, the sweet science wasn't as advanced as it is today and the athleticism in the game is much higher. The Klitschko brothers would probably beat the shit out of Marciano but it doesn't mean they rank higher.

Leonard's a great fighter but I don't see how going 1-1 with a smaller Duran, beating Hearns, and getting a questionable decision over Hagler makes him better than Manny.


and if Floyd totally tears him apart. Does that push him down the list because that would mean guys like whither would do the same.

Doesn't push him down, every single person on everyone's list besides Marciano lost to at least one of their best contemporaries, usually lost quite a few times.

But Pac can only go so high without fighting his best contemporary. It'd be like Ali never fighting Foreman.

[Tarik One]

I view the all-time list as what the boxer accomplished, not necessarily who would beat who. I think some boxers today would beat Sugar Ray Robinson, the sweet science wasn't as advanced as it is today and the athleticism in the game is much higher. The Klitschko brothers would probably beat the shit out of Marciano but it doesn't mean they rank higher.

Leonard's a great fighter but I don't see how going 1-1 with a smaller Duran, beating Hearns, and getting a questionable decision over Hagler makes him better than Manny.



Doesn't push him down, every single person on everyone's list besides Marciano lost to at least one of their best contemporaries, usually lost quite a few times.

But Pac can only go so high without fighting his best contemporary. It'd be like Ali never fighting Foreman.


It's obvious you've never taken an extended look at the fighters I mentioned.

The idea of Klitschkos beating Marciano is absolutely laughable too.

[Zombles]

it's obvious i've never seen any of them fight because i explicitly said the fact that they might beat Manny doesn't necessarily mean they rank higher on the all-time list ? :confusedshrug:

And I see almost no way Rocky could get inside that reach or overcome the size and strength disadvantage. He was what, 5'11" and 185 for most of his career? Even if he did, Vitali's chin is a rock and doesn't break from the first haymaker that lands. I guess he could suzie q Wladamir if he landed flush but it seems unlikely.

[DonDadda59]

It's obvious you've never taken an extended look at the fighters I mentioned.

The idea of Klitschkos beating Marciano is absolutely laughable too.

Wladimir Klitschko: 6'6" height, 81" reach, usually comes in at 240+ lbs
Vitali Klitschko: 6'7 1/2" height, 80" reach, usually comes in at 245+ lbs

Rocky Marciano: 5'10" height, 67" reach, usually came in at 185 lbs

Klitschkos vs Marciano would be a horrible mismatch that would result in a punishing one-sided KO loss in the early-mid rounds for the Rock.

[raiderfan19]

I view the all-time list as what the boxer accomplished, not necessarily who would beat who. I think some boxers today would beat Sugar Ray Robinson, the sweet science wasn't as advanced as it is today and the athleticism in the game is much higher. The Klitschko brothers would probably beat the shit out of Marciano but it doesn't mean they rank higher.

Leonard's a great fighter but I don't see how going 1-1 with a smaller Duran, beating Hearns, and getting a questionable decision over Hagler makes him better than Manny.



Doesn't push him down, every single person on everyone's list besides Marciano lost to at least one of their best contemporaries, usually lost quite a few times.

But Pac can only go so high without fighting his best contemporary. It'd be like Ali never fighting Foreman.

Leonard is higher than pac and its not really arguable. Pac also lost to morales, very easily could have been 0-2 against JMM and beatting berrera doesnt matchup with beating the hitman. So 1-1 vs duran> 2-1 vs morales, 1-0 vs hearns>2-0 vs berrera 1-0 hagler>1-0-1 vs JMM.

[iamgine]

Pacquiao is up there amongst the GOAT. The only man to win in 8 different weight classes. In dominating fashion too.

[RedBlackAttack]

Pacquiao is up there amongst the GOAT. The only man to win in 8 different weight classes. In dominating fashion too.
In fairness, there are A LOT more belts and A LOT more weight classes than what has existed in generations past. That belt record tells me very little. He is a great fighter because of what I see him do inside the ring, not because of his collection of meaningless alphabet soup belts.

I would probably have him in my Top 20 all-time. Actually, maybe not. I would have to work it out before saying for sure. He is a great, great fighter, but there have been a good number of great, great fighters over the past 100+ years.

[Lebron23]

Wladimir Klitschko: 6'6" height, 81" reach, usually comes in at 240+ lbs
Vitali Klitschko: 6'7 1/2" height, 80" reach, usually comes in at 245+ lbs

Rocky Marciano: 5'10" height, 67" reach, usually came in at 185 lbs

Klitschkos vs Marciano would be a horrible mismatch that would result in a punishing one-sided KO loss in the early-mid rounds for the Rock.

Marciano would be a Big Light Heavyweight or a small cruiserweight by today's standards. I think Pacquiao is a top 15-20 boxer of all time. If He beats Mayweather and Williams-Martinez he's a top 5 boxer of all time.

Pacquiao is a once in a life time talent. Can you imagine a former Flyweight Champion winning the Light Middleweight title?

[magic chiongson]

I'm not a boxing historian so I can't comment on all-time lists, but since I have watched Pacquiao and Mayweather fight, I'll add this to that particular sub-topic:

Pac is clearly the better fighter. Emphasis on the word 'fighter.' Mayweather might shuffle and dodge and perform peripheral technical tasks better than Manny. But Pac's aggressiveness, strength, and chin given how much size he usually gives up, are staggering. I've wondered myself if there isn't something to the doping thing Floyd has insinuated. If Pac is totally clean, he is an outright beaaaaast.

this. i've said before that mayweather is a better boxer than pac, and that he might beat him if they ever fought. but pac has a better overall career and has accomplished way more in boxing than mayweather

[New York Knicks]

Higher than duckweather.

[chungerball]

Thank you. Someone with some since

That can't be a typo....I sense some illiteracy amongst us here.

[Lebron23]

Pacquiao avenged his loss againts Eric Morales. The same way Duran avenged his defeat againts Esteban De Jesus

De Jesus defeated Duran in their first fight. Pacquiao should have won his first fight with Marquez in 2003.


One of the judges (who scored the bout 113–113) later admitted to making an error on the scorecards, because he had scored the first round as "10–7" in favor of Pacquiao instead of the standard "10–6" for a three-knockdown round.[26] In fact, the fight should be scored as split decision in favor of Pacquiao. Consequently, both parties felt they had done enough to win the fight.



If Pac fight Marquez again next year he's going to annihilate him in less than 4 rounds.

135 lbs and above - Pac is Superior to Marquez.

[Sarcastic]

I think Roy Jones moving up in weight, all the way up to heavy weight, is more impressive than Pacquiao moving up from fly weight.

[chungerball]

I think Roy Jones moving up in weight, all the way up to heavy weight, is more impressive than Pacquiao moving up from fly weight.

You mean the opponents that he found as well, or just the weight class? Because Manny has demolished each fighter from each higher weight class he fought. Jones didn't look good at heavyweight at all to me.

[Sarcastic]

You mean the opponents that he found as well, or just the weight class? Because Manny has demolished each fighter from each higher weight class he fought. Jones didn't look good at heavyweight at all to me.

Just the feat of adding that much weight. Going from fly to light middle weight is adding about 30-40 pounds. Going from middle to heavy weight is adding like 50-60 pounds. The difference in fighter becomes more severe the higher you go.

[iamgine]

Roy Jones only fought once in heavyweight. He just couldn't do it again, it's too much for him. Still pretty impressive though.


On another note, do you guys think that skilled giants like Lennox Lewis, Klitchko Brothers, Nikolay Valuev, etc would dominate the legends like Ali, Frazier and Foreman?

[Lebron23]

Roy Jones only fought once in heavyweight. He just couldn't do it again, it's too much for him. Still pretty impressive though.


On another note, do you guys think that skilled giants like Lennox Lewis, Klitchko Brothers, Nikolay Valuev, etc would dominate the legends like Ali, Frazier and Foreman?

Nope

A Past his prime George Foreman KO'ed Michael Moorer back in 1994. Prime Ali and Foreman had good size, long reach, and they were also very skilled boxer.

Frazier is one the hardest punchers of all time. Lewis, Klitshcko brothers, and Haye were already KO'ed by lesser skilled boxers.

I think they are capable of beating the best boxers in the Heavyweight Division.

A 38 yrs.old Lennox Lewis defeated a much younger Vitali Klitschko. Prime Ali, Foreman, and Frazier would beat a Prime Lennox Lewis.

Of-course Haye, Lennox, Wladimir, and Vitali Klitschko are future Hall of famers, but they are not in the same level as Ali, Frazier, and Foreman.

Lennox and Wlad might be rank higher than Foreman and Frazier in the Heavyweight All time lists because of their dominance in their respective era.

I think the only fight that can save the heavyweight division if Wladimir plans to fight Vitali next year.

I am huge fan of David Haye, but he's not yet ready to face the Klitschko brothers. I agree with Roy Jones that you need to have a Mike Tysonesque attitude (Inside the ring) if you want to beat the K Brothers.

[Sarcastic]

Roy Jones only fought once in heavyweight. He just couldn't do it again, it's too much for him. Still pretty impressive though.


On another note, do you guys think that skilled giants like Lennox Lewis, Klitchko Brothers, Nikolay Valuev, etc would dominate the legends like Ali, Frazier and Foreman?

Jones fought in light heavyweight many times though, which is incredible when you consider he started with about a 150 pound frame. To add that type of weight is really hard to do. That is probably the biggest reason he has lost so much recently as well. It really takes a toll on your body to put that kind of weight on, and fight people who haven't fluctuated as much.

[Kobe8]

Pacquiao Is the Best Southpaw Boxer ever


/thread

[Tarik One]

Lennox and Wlad might be rank higher than Foreman and Frazier in the Heavyweight All time lists because of their dominance in their respective era.


You have to take into account the level of competition in the era. This is by far the weakest era in the history of the heavyweight division. Wlad isn't even a top 25 HW. I can list 25 guys who were better boxers than him. Easily

Cool thread btw

[Zombles]

You'd have to be nuts to put the brothers Kiltschko above Frazier and especially ****ing crazy to put them above Foreman. Their level of competition has been historically low, and both of them have lost more than once to these mediocre fighters, even if Vitali's losses were kind of freakish.

Icing Norton, Chuvalo, Frazierx2, and coming back to win the title over Moorer at two hundred years old is far more impressive than anything Wlad has done.


Leonard is higher than pac and its not really arguable. Pac also lost to morales, very easily could have been 0-2 against JMM and beatting berrera doesnt matchup with beating the hitman. So 1-1 vs duran> 2-1 vs morales, 1-0 vs hearns>2-0 vs berrera 1-0 hagler>1-0-1 vs JMM.

You'd have an argument if Pac's career ended after fighting those Mexican legends, though I think Hagler won that fight, but it didn't.

A large part of Manny's greatness comes from moving so high above his natural weight and dominating gifted fighters in De La Hoya, Clottey, Cotto, Hatton, and Margarito. None of them are going to wind up top 100 probably, but they are all skilled fighters and former champions and not one of them put up a competitive fight for 12 rounds. Reckon that's what puts him over Leonard.

[New York Knicks]

That can't be a typo....I sense some illiteracy amongst us here.
Which shouldn't be surprising considering what sport this site is about. Urban sports will get urban fans.

[RedBlackAttack]

Pacquiao Is the Best Southpaw Boxer ever


/thread
I'd probably say that the three best southpaws of all-time are Pacquiao, Marvin Hagler and Pernell Whitaker.

[raiderfan19]

You'd have to be nuts to put the brothers Kiltschko above Frazier and especially ****ing crazy to put them above Foreman. Their level of competition has been historically low, and both of them have lost more than once to these mediocre fighters, even if Vitali's losses were kind of freakish.

Icing Norton, Chuvalo, Frazierx2, and coming back to win the title over Moorer at two hundred years old is far more impressive than anything Wlad has done.



You'd have an argument if Pac's career ended after fighting those Mexican legends, though I think Hagler won that fight, but it didn't.

A large part of Manny's greatness comes from moving so high above his natural weight and dominating gifted fighters in De La Hoya, Clottey, Cotto, Hatton, and Margarito. None of them are going to wind up top 100 probably, but they are all skilled fighters and former champions and not one of them put up a competitive fight for 12 rounds. Reckon that's what puts him over Leonard.
De la Hoya and Cotto are the only two of those that contribute anything to his all time legacy other than moving up in weight. Hatton, Margarito and Clottey do nothing.

[Tarik One]

De la Hoya and Cotto are the only two of those that contribute anything to his all time legacy other than moving up in weight. Hatton, Margarito and Clottey do nothing.

Plus Oscar was an over the hill string bean when they fought. 1996 Oscar vs Pac, different outcome.

[RedBlackAttack]

I don't see any argument for Pacquiao being in front of Leonard... Or even all that close, for that matter. Beating Duran, Hagler and Hearns > than anything Pac has done.

What is the argument for Pac?

[raiderfan19]

Plus Oscar was an over the hill string bean when they fought. 1996 Oscar vs Pac, different outcome.
Oscar was clearly out of his prime but I think that that was a case of Manny making DLH look THAT old, much like Floyd made Mosley look THAT old. Im not saying either was in their absolute prime or anything but I also think it was simply the greatness of their opponent that made them look that bad.

[DonDadda59]

I'd probably say that the three best southpaws of all-time are Pacquiao, Marvin Hagler and Pernell Whitaker.

No argument there.


De la Hoya and Cotto are the only two of those that contribute anything to his all time legacy other than moving up in weight. Hatton, Margarito and Clottey do nothing.

What? :wtf:

If anything Hatton does the most for his legacy because he took his record 4th lineal title from Hatton (who was indestructible at 140) and the ease and brutality with which he did it. I'd say DLH did the least (barring $) because he was old and drained, his victory against a 165lb 32 year old Margarito is more impressive than the one against the 147 35 year old Oscar IMO. Cotto and Clottey were both big, strong, durable fighters who took eachother to the limit and presented different challenges to Manny- Cotto is a big powerful boxer/puncher, Clottey being an iron-chinned defensive counter-puncher who routinely comes in at 160+ himself on fight night.

[raiderfan19]

No argument there.



What? :wtf:

If anything Hatton does the most for his legacy because he took his record 4th lineal title from Hatton (who was indestructible at 140) and the ease and brutality with which he did it. I'd say DLH did the least (barring $) because he was old and drained, his victory against a 165lb 32 year old Margarito is more impressive than the one against the 147 35 year old Oscar IMO. Cotto and Clottey were both big, strong, durable fighters who took eachother to the limit and presented different challenges to Manny- Cotto is a big powerful boxer/puncher, Clottey being an iron-chinned defensive counter-puncher who routinely comes in at 160+ himself on fight night.
Margarito was a disgrace who barely hasn't done anything without bricks in his gloves(that we know for sure) and hadnt looked good at all in his last 2 fights. Clottey literally didnt fight and isnt anything special in an all time sense. Ive never thought of hatton as anything all that special. That may be my personal opinion coloring his rating as a boxer(much like your personal opinion of floyd affects your opinion of floyd as a boxer)

[Tarik One]

I don't see any argument for Pacquiao being in front of Leonard... Or even all that close, for that matter. Beating Duran, Hagler and Hearns > than anything Pac has done.


+ Benitez. Benitez was just one of the best defensive 147 pounders ever.

[DonDadda59]

Margarito was a disgrace who barely hasn't done anything without bricks in his gloves(that we know for sure) and hadnt looked good at all in his last 2 fights. Clottey literally didnt fight and isnt anything special in an all time sense. Ive never thought of hatton as anything all that special. That may be my personal opinion coloring his rating as a boxer(much like your personal opinion of floyd affects your opinion of floyd as a boxer)

Margarito, all side-stories notwithstanding, was a 6' super-middleweight in the ring and has always been known for his granite jaw... and a 5'6" midget who was only 1 lb over the WW limit literally broke his face.

He came into the ring Mexican, he left Chinese :oldlol:

http://imgur.com/kfcTU.jpg

Clottey did nothing because he was afraid to open up because Pac was way too fast. And I never thought much of Hatton but the fact is he was undefeated at 140 and was the undisputed lineal champion, and he was sent into a depression and cocaine-fueled early retirement in 2 rounds.

[raiderfan19]

Margarito, all side-stories notwithstanding, was a 6' super-middleweight in the ring and has always been known for his granite jaw... and a 5'6" midget who was only 1 lb over the WW limit literally broke his face.

He came into the ring Mexican, he left Chinese :oldlol:

http://imgur.com/kfcTU.jpg

Clottey did nothing because he was afraid to open up because Pac was way too fast. And I never thought much of Hatton but the fact is he was undefeated at 140 and was the undisputed lineal champion, and he was sent into a depression and cocaine-fueled early retirement in 2 rounds.
Margarito was a super middleweight? Really? Antonio margarito is and always has been a welterweight. Hes fought I believe 3 fights above welter in his career and never above light middle. Calling him a super middle is just wrong.

[DonDadda59]

Margarito was a super middleweight? Really? Antonio margarito is and always has been a welterweight. Hes fought I believe 3 fights above welter in his career and never above light middle. Calling him a super middle is just wrong.

165 lbs to Pac's 148 in the ring.

[raiderfan19]

165 lbs to Pac's 148 in the ring.
Hes not the first guy to cut weight and rehydrate. You are better than this. He was 150 for the purposes of the fight and could have easily fought at 147. It was a welterweight fight that Arum and Co pretended was a light middleweight fight in order to get manny a fake title.

[Tarik One]

Hes not the first guy to cut weight and rehydrate. You are better than this. He was 150 for the purposes of the fight and could have easily fought at 147. It was a welterweight fight that Arum and Co pretended was a light middleweight fight in order to get manny a fake title.

Remember when Arturo Gatti rehydrated overnight against a that one guy and damn near killed him in the ring? Gatti was like twice his size once the bell rang.

[DonDadda59]

Hes not the first guy to cut weight and rehydrate. You are better than this. He was 150 for the purposes of the fight and could have easily fought at 147. It was a welterweight fight that Arum and Co pretended was a light middleweight fight in order to get manny a fake title.

Ok, and he was 165 lbs in the ring to Manny's 148. How does anything you typed change that fact?

[raiderfan19]

Ok, and he was 165 lbs in the ring to Manny's 148. How does anything you typed change that fact?
And that has no bearing whatsoever on anything. He made the 150 weight limit so for the purposes of the fight he was 150. Again its not uncommon for people to rehydrate up. Manny is impressive enough on his own not to make up accomplishments.

[DonDadda59]

And that has no bearing whatsoever on anything. He made the 150 weight limit so for the purposes of the fight he was 150. Again its not uncommon for people to rehydrate up. Manny is impressive enough on his own not to make up accomplishments.

How is it a made up accomplishment? Pacquiao has never faced anyone that big and strong with that sort of weight disadvantage. Even with DLH, he came in at 145 on the scales and rehydrated to 147 (at age 35) and that to you is more impressive than Margarito at 165 and Pac breaking his face?

[RedBlackAttack]

+ Benitez. Benitez was just one of the best defensive 147 pounders ever.
Yes... Benitez was also a great, great win. It was a dominant victory, too... And Benitez was undefeated at the time.

I was never a huge SRL guy. My favorites of that era were Duran and Hearns later on, but you can't deny what the guy accomplished.

I'll just put it like this... SRL actually dominated a guy who is above him on the pound-for-pound list (Duran). There aren't too many all-timers who can say that they dominated one of the Top 5 boxers to ever live. SRL can say that.

The interesting thing about Leonard is that he didn't fight all that much. He only had 36 bouts in his injury-plagued (and possible drug-plagued) career. However, you look at the quality of opponents and it is nearly unparalleled. Benitez, Hearns, Hagler, Duran... even guys like Kalule, Lalonde and Terry Norris/Camacho later in his career.

He may have the most star-studded resume outside of SRR.



As for Pacquiao, he has a legitimate argument for being in the Top 20 all-time. The thing that his resume is missing, though, is that other great p4p equal in their prime. That is why this potential bout with Mayweather is so important.

I've heard Pac say that he doesn't need Floyd. While that is undeniably true when it comes to finishing with a great career, he does need Floyd if he wants to crack the SRL territory.

What is Pacquiao's greatest victory? Morales? Marquez? Barrera? Cotto?

Those are very nice wins, don't get me wrong... But you won't find any of those names within anyone's Top 50 all-time pound-for-pound list.

Floyd and Manny need each other if either has any plans to make a run at the Top 10 all-time list. Hopefully, pride and ego don't get in the way of making the most sensible, obvious and historically significant boxing match since Duran-Leonard I.

In fact, ego and pride is exactly what should make this fight happen. Come on, guys.

[DonDadda59]

As for Pacquiao, he has a legitimate argument for being in the Top 20 all-time. The thing that his resume is missing, though, is that other great p4p equal in their prime. That is why this potential bout with Mayweather is so important.

I've heard Pac say that he doesn't need Floyd. While that is undeniably true when it comes to finishing with a great career, he does need Floyd if he wants to crack the SRL territory.

What is Pacquiao's greatest victory? Morales? Marquez? Barrera? Cotto?

Those are very nice wins, don't get me wrong... But you won't find any of those names within anyone's Top 50 all-time pound-for-pound list.

Floyd and Manny need each other if either has any plans to make a run at the Top 10 all-time list. Hopefully, pride and ego don't get in the way of making the most sensible, obvious and historically significant boxing match since Duran-Leonard I.

In fact, ego and pride is exactly what should make this fight happen. Come on, guys.

I say Barrera. He was in the top 5 lb 4 lb list (behind only RJJ, Hopkins, and maybe Forrest) and had run off consecutive victories against Naseem Hamed (35-0), Erik Morales (41-0), Johnny Tapia (52-2-2), and Kevin Kelley (54-5-2) and was only 29 years old and the heavy favorite when a still raw Pacquiao made his corner throw in the towel to save Marco.

Both Barrera and Morales are in most Top 50 ATG lists and are considered by most to be in the top 5 all time Mexican fighters list along with Lopez, Chavez, and Sanchez. Manny has 4 victories against them.

[Lebron23]

Top 15-20

Pacquiao is gonna be rank higher once he retires from professional boxing. He's not one of the most skilled Boxer of all time, But he's one hell of a fighter.

Manny Pacquiao vs. the undefeated Timothy Bradley. ( Best Light Welterweight boxer on the planet) on June 6.

[Lebron23]

Pacquiao Top 5 Greatest Fights.

1. Manny Pacquiao defeated Prime Marco Antonio Barrera back in 2003 for the Ring Magazine Featherweight title. He won via 10th round TKO.

2. Manny Pacquiao winning his first world title after he defeated one of the greatest Flyweights of all time in Chachai Sasakul.

3. Manny Pacquiao defeated Prime Miguel Cotto for the WBA World Welterweight title.

4. Manny Pacquiao avenged his first defeat against Eric Morales. He won via 10th round TKO in their 2nd fight.

5. Manny Pacquiao Draw against Juan Manuel Marquez in their first fight. Pacquiao should have won in this fight, but one of the judges made an error on their scorecards.

[quote]One of the judges (who scored the bout 113

[Lebron23]

http://theshoegame.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/nike-manny-pacquiao-boots.jpg

http://f5torefresh.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/manny-pacquiao-x-nike-trainer-1.3-f5-560x373.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_UqUwVPikChs/TONhcUFNnaI/AAAAAAAAPlQ/u3lgRGjNpdI/s1600/Nike-Trainer-1.2-Low-Limited-Edition-Manny-Pacquiao-%2BMens-Training-Shoes-Price-Philippines.jpg

[ClutchOver9000]

http://theshoegame.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/nike-manny-pacquiao-boots.jpg

http://f5torefresh.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/manny-pacquiao-x-nike-trainer-1.3-f5-560x373.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_UqUwVPikChs/TONhcUFNnaI/AAAAAAAAPlQ/u3lgRGjNpdI/s1600/Nike-Trainer-1.2-Low-Limited-Edition-Manny-Pacquiao-%2BMens-Training-Shoes-Price-Philippines.jpg

those look fire